Title: Transcripts of interviews conducted by Gwendolen M. Carter, 1972-1985
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00095707/00056
 Material Information
Title: Transcripts of interviews conducted by Gwendolen M. Carter, 1972-1985
Physical Description: Archival
Language: English
Creator: Carter, Gwendolen M.
Copyright Date: 1985
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00095707
Volume ID: VID00056
Source Institution: University of Florida
Holding Location: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.

Full Text

Roli Arenstein--Durban, 1985 Jac~-. [So O<
Inka Mars (Red cross/ sends her regards. phone 293614 (Gatcha's public relations person).
I can't leave Durban, cant go to court. In '66 took me off the a xam attorneys isx roll
book. My ban was renewed every 5 years. Still do work for some of the Pondos (Pondo uprising).

the meeting with Kennedy at the Royal Hotel: Kennedy was not interested in Gatcha. I was the
token white at the breakfast-Fowler from the U.S. House of Representatives. Gatcha welcomed
Yennedy. Explained that there were 2 options; the peaceful or the armed struggle. Noted that
there was no possibility of winning the armed struggle. Pointed out that disinvestment will
hinder the struggle, that Tutu is posturing but he has no constituency. The people want food
and jobs--they need cash to survive. Gatchlclaims to have asked the people about disinvestment
and they answered "No". The Americans should listen to the blacks.
Well you know that you cannot hurry Zulus, time for tnem is not of the essence. Giatcha had
presents for everyone. Forcibly took Kennedy out to see the Inkata leader, Inkata youth,
the women brigade--Kennedy was mad, said that he would "see thatL atcha would not be welcomed
by any Senator or Representative." that "Gatcha's position was not constructive."
Let's remember that catcha pulled a 30,000 person crowd in Soweto in Sept. and Tutu only got
3000 at the church farewell.

Mrs. L.uli has not been moved. iatcha played a big part.

There is a clash on strategy and tactics. The Indians have to decide whether to vote or not to
vote for proposals. The old tradition of the Uongress movement is to participate. ivelson
even argued for participation. ANu--k 2 1912-1920 was a period of growth then it declined in
the 1930's, 1935 Hertzog Bills the all African Convention (a kind of UDF') fought the Bills.
All Africans were given the indirect right to 4 senators, in the Cape there was a separate
roll. The Native Representative councils and local advisory boards gave rise to the unity
riovement.boycott. The ANC said no it was better to participate, get in and use the boards so
the Ai\u got out of the AAU. The AEC participated in the institutions---Letuli, Prof. Mathavws,
champion the advisory boards built up the AsC so that by the 1950's they had good party machinery
in place as a result of participation. 1959 Nelson's article. Transkei. The ANC went
underground. Pondol&nd Peoples Farty 1960's won all seats but 1. ANC gave its ok at the last
minute. Gatcha became chief Minister with the aNC's blessings. The 1980 clash was over the
school boycotts and Gatcha's refusal to support the armed ix struggle: ANC wanted Inkata to
recruit for them but there were too many info mersxfaxxSatizaxicxazxixjix ximaaGxE Taambo felt
that Gatcha was one of them. The ANC was worried by Gatcha's independence. The claims of he
ANC to be "The Representatives of the People" are i.ot valid. Tom Karis) is wrong in thinking
the ANC can control the internal situation.

Arenstein--page 2
The UD' is following the AnC ixt policy. The bottom line should be opposition to apartheid.
hot dealing with Inkata means the loss of natal.

100 members of Inkata YX~kt Youth invited GAtcha to speak at the university ,hey hais 4 6000
?cople o&,
.ersQp meeting hall there. 500 people were protesting and passing out leaflets. Friday, the
day before Gatcha is scheduled to talk, the protesting students held a meeting and got a lawyer
who got an order to prevent the meeting. Lhe police ad the students got into a fight and the
police used tear gases to get the students out of the hostels. Friday night the Inkata students
stayed in the Hall to keep it from being burned down. Saturday a.m. the first Inkata students
arrived and went to the hall. There were police from the entrance to the university up to the
doors of the hall. lc0eighteen year old(Inkata Youth)f girls asked some (or one?DP) boys to.-.-
escort them to the hostel. A shouting match started and then the stone throwing started.
Zulus always walk with sticks, its traditional.
Stone throwing, sticks, went to the hostel then Inkata went imk into the hostel. 4 died but
only 2 were killed outright. A 5th person, an inkata member arrived later and was killed.
At 10 a.m. ,atcha and the MP's arrived and that is when the photos that were used to blander
%atcha were taken,

Malmoth: It was a Reform Church meeting in Quazulu. Gatcha sent Madida to welcome the delegates
to the meeting. when radida arrived, they told him it was not that night but the next day. The
church men fled saying thft they feared for their lives.

Lamontville is not in quazulu. At a 1979 meeting the residents asked Gatcha to apply for them
to have Quazulu membership. The rise of Harrison Dubee, an ANU member who decided that one must
get into power. Dubee got onto the town council. There he confronted an Inkata member-leader
who was also a local gangster and there was a clash between the two. The young people saw this
as an LNC Inkata split. A new church man came to the township to join dubee.
2 masked men shot Dubee. Some suspected the security police. Some suspected the Inkata gangster.
some said it had been done by someone else.
Inkata tipped the police that the 2 men had been seen to go to the home of the Taxi Chairman.
Dubee had invited taxes from other areas into the township to break the monopoly. The taxi
owner told the Inkata leader that he was taking out a contract on Dubee and got Inkata to
share the contract cost.
Inkata was fighting the rent increase when suddenly the government decided to honor the kt8s8x
1979 to incorporate Lamontville into Quazulu. The people at this point said "no". Gatcha
said that it was not his idea, tie residents had initiated the original request. The Community

Council called a meeting to try to decide. The S.T. Smith Hostel male Inkata supporters told

Arenstein--page 3

councilor ohezee to go to the meeting. 4-500 youngsters invaded the hall. Bricks were thrown
and they burned Jehney E'akatiniL brothers' house. The police finally rescued the Speakers(councilors)
when Shezee went back to the nostel the inkata contingent was ready to march but he calmed them
down and stopped the march.
The press smeared Gatcha's MP's saying they urged a march on Lamontville to force the decision.
A year after Dubee's death, at a commemorative service, Inkata came to pay their respects and
say banners (that were uncomplementary to Gatcha and Inkata). They tried to take the banners
down and there was a battle. 2 or 3 Inkata members were killed. Gatcha said he was coming to
lamontville. Diakonia said that they wanted to have a meeting, that they were afraid of violence.
But Gatcha said that they would be no trouble. Inkata voted for a call for there to be no
violence but Diakonia would not sign it. Instead they tried to evacuate Lamontville but
they couldn't, and there wasn't any trouble.
The central government is trying to force 6 townships to go to Quazulu. Gatcha says that he
doesn't care, that it is up to the 0 people and their will is fine with him.
Inkata membership is growing by leaps and bounds---"almost 1,000,000 members". The Zulu people
are not anti-Butelezi, they see him as a fighter.

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