Title: Transcripts of interviews conducted by Gwendolen M. Carter, 1972-1985
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00095707/00005
 Material Information
Title: Transcripts of interviews conducted by Gwendolen M. Carter, 1972-1985
Physical Description: Archival
Language: English
Creator: Carter, Gwendolen M.
Copyright Date: 1972
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00095707
Volume ID: VID00005
Source Institution: University of Florida
Holding Location: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.

Full Text

Colin Legum at the Hilton Hotel in Addis Ababa, December 14, 1973

The first thing I asked him was about the possible airline connection
between the three BLS countries. I knew that he had a special interest in
this, partly because he had been bumped off the flight from Jan Smuts air-
port to Swaziland and because he had been discussing the possibility of
further insurance to prevent such actions in the future with Joe Matthews
at the Commonwealth Conference. The situation which he had previously
described to me but which was still a little hazy in my mind he spelled out
as follows:

IACO is the International Airlines Convention which members sign
in order to have international airline rights. IATA is the organi-
zation which administers reciprocal rights to all members who have
signed the IACO convention. Under IATA rules, all scheduled
flights can overfly countries. National airlines register their
flights with IATA in order to provide international information on
their scheduled flights.

The Swazis and Botswana both have airlines. Simon Nxumalo has told Legum
that the Swazis have no registered their scheduled flights. He is not
sure whether Botswana has done so yet or not. In line with the IATA rules,
Botswana, and Swaziland could develop a scheduled flight between their two
countries which would overfly South Africa. Lesotho does not have a regis-
tered airline as yet which is operative although they have the registration

It would be possible for South Africa to reject the right to overfly
its territory by a Botswana-Swazi scheduled flight, pointing to the fact
that African countries bt~~ prevent South African airline from overflying
their countries which is a violation of IATA rules. This is a hurdle which
might have to be encountered but is only a possibility at this point. I
mentioned the Lesotho suggestion that an airline could fly from Maseru to,
say, Blantyre and link up with East African Airways but this might encounter
the same difficulty. In any case a good deal of thought is being devoted to
this way of reducing the dependence of the BLS countries on South Africa as
a transit point.

The second issue that I discussed with Legum was in regard to the
charge by the Basutos that Rupert, through van G(n who was the Director of
the Lesotho Development Corporation, had prevented the Basutos from develop-
ing an industrial potential in competitive fields. Legum says that vaLn Gr1
was quite outspoken in regard to the fact that competition in selective
industries in general was not to be prohibited butAcompetition with any enter-
prize in which Rupert himself as an interest. One of the dramatic illustrations
of this second policy was told him by Simon Nxumalo as follows. The Danes had
suggested setting up a brewery in Swaziland. Since nothing happened for some
time, and the West Germans came with a fully-fledged scheme of investment in
the brewery, the latter were accepted. Thereafter the Danes turned up and
rather than simply turning them away, Nxumalo took them to Lesotho with the
expectation that they could develop their brewery in that country. Nxumalo
told Legum that he had never been so humiliated in his life as in the conver-
sation with van Gri and the Danes. VAn Gr4 belittled the Lesotho opportunities
in such a way that he made the situation impossible. This was because of Rupert's
major Interest in the South African brewery industry and is one of the factors
in persuading the Basutos to terminate Van Gr?'s contract by placing the

Lesotho Industrial Corporation under the Main Development Corporation
which is headed by a UN appointed German-official. (See Mooki Molapo's

Legum says, however, that the Rupert interest has been much more
concerned to block development in Swaziland than in Lesotho. They have
now set up a front in Swaziland (see X4Ray) with Schiller, former German
Finance Minister, as the head. Funds are held in Switzerland. The front
attempted to secure Chase Manhattan Bank funding but failed which is in
line with my view of Wayne's sophistication in this issue. The Rupert
interest blocked the development in Swaziland of a fertilizer plant, a
chemical factory, a radio with advertising, and yet a fourth area which
Legum could not-remember. Nonetheless, Simon Nxumalo has now got a UN
official to head up development, Legum thinks a German, and has been to
both West Germany and Japan to secure economic support. He came back from
Japan with a particularly large pledge of support for a textile factory in
the southern part of the country, chemical industry, fertilizer, and a spin
off whose output will be sold to Nigeria.

I cited Molapo's view that Swaziland and Lesotho worked together but
that Botswana was carving its own line because of its growing wealth. Legum
did not agree. He cited conversations with Seretse in which the latter spoke
of having gone to Swaziland himself but finding he could not persuade the
Swazis to come to Botswana. Thus it seems that on both sides there is the
view that the other is being non-cooperative. Legum thought there was no basis
for saying that Botswana would be going its own line without consideration for
Swaziland and Lesotho except, possibly, in regard to the customs arrangements.
Under that revised arrangement, Botswana has been securing a fantastic amount
of money due to its import of heavy machinery for its mining development. This
might conceivably lead the Botswanans to wiiLh to keep at least that feature
of the customs agreement as it now stands whereas the Swazis and Basutos might
be proposing certain changes.

I also raised the question of the relationship between Swaziland and
"]awaZulu. This also seems to be one of Nxumalo's special interest. The pro-
jected marriage between a daughter of Sobuza and the king of the Zulus is
one step towards a closer relationship between Swaziland and, indeed, all the
BLS countries and the Bantustans. I mentioned Buthelezi's objection to the
marriage which somewhat amused Legum but he felt that this was perhaps a
necessary move in the direction suggested already. When I spoke of the Con-
ference that Vilakazi is trying to organize in Swaziland between the BLS
countries and the Bantustan leaders, Legum thought it was quite unnecessary
to have external capital for this as there would be plenty of resources locally.
Vilakazi had not spoken to him of this plan although the latter is going to
Swaziland to see whether he can organize such a conference with support from
UBLS and possibly some American institution. The one that the Ford Foundation
and Rockefeller Foundation had mentioned to Vilakazi would be Rotberg's study
of the Bantustans and I also mentioned the projected program for Indiana.


Conversation with Earl Widstrand, Hilton Hotel, December 14, 1973 following
my talk with Legum

I asked Widstrand for a copy of Legum's paper on Land Locked States in
which he quotes Von Crum. Widstrand had expected to have the whole volume out
long before this and will send me a page proof of it to Florida. The importance
of the Legum paper seems to lie in his quote of Von Crum which Legum feels
demonstrates the line that Von Crum drew between protecting Rupert's interest
in South Africa from competition in the BLS countries and South African
interests with which he was not concerned.

The Swedish Institute which Widstrand heads is taking southern Africa
as one of its four main topics. He gave me the name of a colleague at the
University of Gothewburg which is on the west coast. The man's name is.Ake
Magnusson in the Department of Political Science at that university. He is
an enthusiast for securing material on southern Africa, particularly South
Africa, and handling it through computers. He has 30 or 40 students who work
with him on southern African material and has been developing a tremendous
amount in terms of election studies, and policy studies. For example, he
took 10 years of the South African Digest and ran it through the computer to
see what the South African policies had been in different fields. Another one
of his projects was to take the South African debates for a year, divide them
up between different students, and trace the evolution of pojbc in different
fields. Yet another project was to take the General Assembfl~ the UN and
trace South African policy in its debates. One of the published outcomes of
the collaboration between the Swedish Institute and Magnusson is the South
African Handbook which is largely statistical material. The problem with this
activity is that it is all in Swedish but as I pointed out at least the
statistics will be meaningful in any language. Another aspect of the work of
the Swedish Institute regarding southern Africa is the publication of Black
Voices in South Africa in which they are collaborating van der Merwe.

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