Dr. Willem Kleynhans, Professor of
Political Science, University of South
Africa, Pretoria Dan Simpson, and
Gwendolen Carter, 222 Lake St.,
October 14, 1972
GMC In South Africa in particular, the African organizations or the black organizations
like SASo and the Black People's Organization what do you see of their actions and
K Well I think what has to be watched in the near future and can develop into a
major instrument of change in South Africa is how the Africans in the homeland, the
alrnaranaand Buthelezi's, how effectively they are going to kb the instruments
created by the Nationalist government.
GMC This is one of the lines, exploitation of government.
K How effectively are they going to use those instruments. Are they going to use
them as effectively as the Afrikaners use political parties to improve their position
from underdog to be in control of South Africantoday? The National party sort of bans
PAC, ANC, and of course, locked up all the so-called extremists and created in its
place separate development in 1959,-'60 Bantustans gave them westernized, West-
minster types of government with political parties the lot. So they axaxhave
those kayx;;x kkihx
instruments at their disposal to use because 1ikkxyxkax political parties are instru-
ments that they can use.ore than half of the voters of the Transkei and the Aiskei
and all the other homelands live in white South Africa -SVasc> when there is an
election as is now the case in the Aiskei those candidates standing for Parliament
in the Atskei had to come to Sjwet6 and 4emadeedi and
conduct their campaigns. And to be able to get support they must make promises and
jqe promises, I expect, to A4. on=~e- prem-i-'etfm to talk to the white government
to remove injustices, to improve their positions, to make life more bearable for
them. Thy will be because various parties will compete in these elections and in
order to get votes, they will have to make promises and arkax I think this is what's
going to happen. They're going to use these homeland governments and the political
parties that they've established to make promises Mi in exchange to get their votes.
GMC But has the Aiskei got a political party, because Zululand has not yet.
Buthelezi doesn't approve of them.
K But whether it is a one-party or a two-party or a tkxam-party xyxftm situation,
. . they're going to establish political parties and then they will have platforms.
GMC Like the Transket one.
S case of the Transkei, case of the (iskei.
K Before I left, there was some talk of it. But whether it's a one party-state or
two party .
GMC Somebody has got to say something.
K Exactly. But whether they havepolitical parties,,af they are now spokesmen to
voice the feelings of their people.
GMC But do you think that can have any effect1and in what way can it have an effect
when whatever limited administrative responsibilities they have in those territories
are remote from the centers of the white population?
K Surely, the voters of the Transkei and the iskei and these homelands, these
voters who live in the so-called white South Africa, they will have something to say.
\AO amak- 5,y
to the candidatesA soli6esing thets and looking for their support. And they will
have something to say about their circumstances and working conditions and what they
feel are injustices, about the situation in the Because they're
not concerned about Aka what the situation is in
that's why they won't vote for them If Buthelezi and c
can't do something for them . .
GMC But what can they do? With the best will in the world, what can they do?
K But the government has created these platforms and Buthelezi has already put some
life into s L
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Because Buthelezi is trying to establish the prestige, a sort of sovereign indepen-
dent state that/9k47tZ/A is not establishing. So 24 t- and Buthelezi
are in competition to be the first to establish a so-called sovereign independent
state and to be handed over for the sort of stipulated in the. .
GMC But do you really believe that a) that the government would do it if they
asked, though they say they would and b) that they can as long as they are kept
in these various divided situations in which they only have parcels of land and not
K I feel that the mere fatt that these African spokesman are using these strong
languages is already frightening the whites.
GMC Will that be good?
K I think that it was ium stupid and never to expect what the implications of the
1959 and 1960 sort of independent homelands idea wikk was all about. I
sincerely believe that they were so stupid as to think that those sort of more
sophisticated instruments to keep a in his place and
thought that he would be able to control the timetable.
GMC But you don't think he can? and you don't think that it can be controlled?
K This is the way I feel. The whites will try to control the timetable but the
blacks have an important role to perform in this process. There are platforms and
if they're going to use it and I think thefAre ace__ Se that Buthelezi
is going to use it, a confrontation is going to develop, no doubt about it.
GMC But Buthelezi himself says Matamzina is out until they get consolidated
territories with some outlet in thPB e L
K Now you've touched on a very important point. They <--c#&- t,
iy ^ 6r !f Z '
S But what if the government doesn't give them the land?
K But my friend. I believe that . .
S What can they do?
K I believe a confrontation is going to develop.
GMC But, what kind of a confrontation, this is what I . .
K Well, I wouldn't like to speculate about that but if the Africans, the
Buthelezis, the leaders of the homelands, if they're not going to use these
instruments, then they deserve to be.
GMC You mean, if they did it together jointly that it would exert more pressure?
K Well, they ats need not join their forces but individually each and every
Bantu homeland can make the and put pressure on the government to
grant them more land, to give them Port St. John and and to allow
them to get foreign capital to develop their homeland. If they apply pressure . .
GMC What pressure? will influence Vervoerd. I mean, suppose you were Buthelezi,
what would you do, how could you exert pressure? Do you make speeches, you mobilize
kkax support, you go to SWeto and you get enormous response and get your people behind
you and the government says to you, "Well I won't." What do you do then?
K When we reach that state. .
GMC We're there, aren't we?
K We need to do enough to lead to some development, there's no doubt about that.
But the fxxtgxsaag fact that they are using. . what in effect we have today, is
GMC That, I think, is a good phrase. I don't know,
K Perhaps the language they use is not as strong as in the days of the ANC,
but it's nearing the state where it's as frightening to the whites.
GMC You think it's frightening, really.
K It's already among government supporters.
GMC To shut them up.
K Yes, SASO and all that. I said to them, these are the natural outg ASs
GMC Of course.
K of separate development, of separate nationalism, and you have to accept this.
Didn't you use your brains and your common sense in 1959 when you backed one election
after another, backed the government, in these. Because you know this is interesting.
In 19 I think it was the last of January or the first of February in 1959 when
Vervoerd in Cape Town made that speech. I was with Professor
in this study. 5:00, I remember, when there was a special broadcast about this
statement. And I said that very day, even in my diary I sort of made notes to the
effect I said to Professor Well, one day the Bantu are going to
use these instruments because the natural thing for them is to establish political
parties for their self-government, for their self-rule or parliaments, etc. and those
can be used as levers. Today they're using those platforms created by the government
for them to sort of improve their position but at the time, what the government
thought in 1958 because then they still thought that the to which the
homelands would one day become a reality. And of course all the Bantu and in sizeable
numbers would be in the homelands. But they never thought that they would be confronted
with a situation where the xaRxic would be not sojourners but permanent inhabitants.
GMC Of the so-called white areas?
K But the initiative for change in South Africa depends a lot on what the blacks
do about the powers that separate homelands and separate developments and independent
Bantustans provide them, how effectively they can use them. But the mere fact that
they talk in these strong terms, strong language really . .
GMC I guess Buthelezi speaks it at least. I don't ki think Matamzima says very
much except that he .
K Yes, but he will be a because otherwise whats-his-name will
in establishing a and there's competition not within these
homelands, but among the aspiring politicians and also between homelands. Because the
national party created a sort of a variety of nationalisms ali competing with each
other. Not black nationalismsamong themselves but white and black nationalism, So
this is .
KMG Do you see that the Bantustans are acquiring an ethnic identity exclusively
or do you see that they're acquiring an African identity?
K Well, this is difficult . .
GMC Because I think with Buthelezi it's African rather than Zulu, as well as Zulu.
K This is a point. They must be very careful and not to tie in, because then they
would provide the government with an opportunity to squash them, if they plan to
create an African sort of bloc. They must use their individual homelands as platforms
and not to try and bridge these . .
GMc But Buthelezi says they vote for me and cheer for me not as a Zulu but because
I'm an African leader. And that seems to me his strength. But he's not dividing Zulu
K But then, they're looking for trouble. I think they should use a separate platform.
GMC But then they allow themselves to be subdivided because surely their strength
is their numbers.
K Yes, but if four or five homeland governments speak out day after day, they
create an atmosphere that would lead to pressure within the camp,
and who can tell what will come out of that. It will in any case, I think, disturb
the situation in South Africa.
GMC Do you really?
K And out of that, something new.
GMC You put this first, tkha most people, I think, would put SASO and the black
people's convention. You don't think that tkRxa they rank.
K No, because the government is already sort of a most dangerous, but I thin k that the
leaders of SASO, they haven't got enough experience in they're missing their own . .
GMC They did a good thing with that boycott.
K Exactly, but it lost its impetus. But ey watching the homeland governments and
the electionSand the political parties and their activities and how these spokesmen of
these political parties and the Ministers and the Chief-Ministers, how they use*the
platforms. Because, separate development the Bantustan policy provided them with
platforms and they're using it. I mean, if they're going to keep this up, it's going
to, in some direction or another, it's going to cause some. . I wouldn't like to say
what particular form, but that is going to create a situation where something will
happen. There's no doubt. And since the government is pushing this soverign
independence aspect quite a bit, to grant them sovereign independence, but it will be
empty shells, because from an economic point of view, those areas have very little, if
anything at all.. It will be political independence,
GMC but economic suicide..
K Exactly. So they will be fools if they accept sovereign independence.
GMC Well, that's what they're saying that they won't accept it unless they get a
reasonable amount of land.
K But, can you imagine if there's a debate about the land issue, it has to lead
to something of change in RmmatkiR South Africa.
GMC But does it? Now let's say that the government has imposed a land settlement.
In that issue of the Star the crowds who went there to talk to Buthelezi were
absolutely appalled that /hef had never been consulted. But he says this quite
frankly, that nobody ever asked him, nobody ever took his advice, and nobody ever
listens to him.
K But the fact that, for the first time since those organizations were banned,
we have black -white debate accusations being made over the floor.
There's some impact in it. I wouldn't like to express in what forms or the effett
that we have in debate and with strong language being used over the floor, is going
to loosen up public opinion among whites, blacks, and should lead to some sort of a
GMC What kind of reactions do you see, for instance, in your contacts in Afrikanerdom
or English-speaking and so on. Do you see that the political parties that youthe
concerned with, the white political parties, are taking these developments seriously at
K You mean, do you think in terms of certain ~judgments- and changes in the attitudes?
GMC The traditional South African whites thinks that the Africans are somebody
off there, who probably brings his morning tea, but on the other hand, ought to keep
qgite quiet and not interfere. These funny Bantustans, fortunately they're so far
away we don't need to bother about them. Has that changed?
K The number of so-called and English-speakers,
to speak out,
the number is still very limited. A few have the courage of their convictions, the
others are just . So, I'm afraid in that respect there is no sort of movement one
way or another sort of remain silent. It does not help as to
try and move people
direction. These people sort of remain silent and are scared to do something. I'm
afraid in that respect the number is very limited. And the
party, with Colin Eglin, after 18 months, Hax I attended the National Congress too
I left and
in Pretoria before, after 18 months and you know he went out of his way to pull in
Afrikaner, but there was no visible sign. The Congress., the few Afrikaners, Vo/rster
would say, anglicized Afrikaners. There were four or five of them after this all-
out campaign by Colin to established a so-called
As I sort of
and to pull in the left Afrikaner support. A see it, did not succeed, because there
was a conferencee. Was that also reported in The Star. What about this. *
n the 10th academics
of August a closed conference of about 40 Afrikanerf~nd the Progressive party
convene a closed conference in Pretoria. They invited about 40 (rcfAe es
GMC I didn't hear about that.
K I attended that too. and by
and Helen Suzman
Colin to get a frank discussion of the Progressive Party's platform and they asked
us to What we think of the platform and where
we think they should make changes, etc. It was not meant as a sort of
GMC No, but to get ideas . .
K But at the end, on a Saturday afternoon, there was an opportunity for the academics
to, well sort of, commit themselves and only one. I think he was a young Afi-Can from
Cape Town, stood up and sort of expressed his feelings that he had fax sort of seen the
light now and that he was going to join in the Progeessive Party. But all the other
academics nobody moved a finger. So not even the Afrikaner academics were certain.
Liberal like myself are prepared to join the Progressive Party but
GMC There are liberal Afrikaners like you who feel that the Bantustans have a
significant role within South Africa, or wre there? Are you unique, or ere there
K The situation hasn't changed in South Africa, as you expressed when you said
isn't it terrible. And our government see about the Professor of Sociology
has issued a statement that
at Cape Town University who kadxxxkaxxkatikxkxaxxaxatiaE that he was comigg back to
Canada again a position. He was in Canada then he went to .
GMC That's right, what was his name again?
K Jan kmkxsKkKx Llubser. then he went
to Cape Town. And he was also involved in the student demonstrations and I think he
conducted a campaign through the of the B,~rgoer.
GMC He's Afrikaner.
K Yes, exactly. He attacked the church and the establishment, and the Bgrgler
provided quite a lot of space for his leaders and other leaders who felt as also, you
know, that they had something to contribute. And when I was in New York and I saw in
the paper intention to . .~ L-Lee 7-
-C4 (- r t
But I think that's wrong, because if all of us sort of leave South Africa
When he took out for Canadian citizenship
but he can forget ever to come back again. So I think that's wrong if the few who
have the courage to speak out should also pack up and go. But I still feel that if
change is to come in South Africa the Africans are the ones who must do it, even if
it's only first a debate, getting more and more intense. I think something will
dev elop, but it's difficult to say in what way. But KaRXKexxaiRaRa x conversation,
dailogue economic developments of the homelands, more powers for homeland govern-
ment and I think these; Buthelezi and others, will sooner or later touch on the
wakxx working conditions L2/~ L/-L
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But I think that's wrong, because if all of us sort of leave South Africa
When he took out for Canadian citi-
zenship but he can forget ever to come back again. So I think that's wrong if
the few who have the courage to speak out should also pack up and go. But I
still feel that if change is to come in South Africa soon the Africans are the
ones who must do it, even if it's only first a debate, getting more and more
intense. I think something will develop, but it's difficult to say in what way.
But conversation, dialogue, economic developments of the homelands, more powers
for homeland government and I think these, Buthelezi and others, will sooner
or later touch on the working conditions, housing, injustices that are sort of
committed to which they're bound to living in White South Africa. Because those
Bantu carry citizen documents of Buthelezi and Matazima. They have to concern
And I think they do as a matter of fact.
K The fact that we had this debate and the strong language that was used is
GMC You think it's a stirring up of people's ideas? You think people listen?
K But it's going to have some effect of loosening up traditional ways of think-
ing. And the blacks have a lot to contribute to its change. I would like
to put it in those terms.
GMC Do you see any prospect that this black People's Organization can have any
K Which one?
GMC This Drake Kka, this one that was founded sort of officially in December
at theScweto meeting and that had the preliminaries before. They call it the
Black People's Organization.
K- From what was reported in the press, the impression I gained was that it was
not a dynamic platform.
GMC I think not. I don't know whether it's developing.
K What was reported in the press, I think, two or three cuttings, and I was
especially for that, and I think that, up to the 31st of August, I hadn't seen
very much. I attended, occasionally, the Urban Bantu Council Meetings in
Sweto. They are so frustrated, with good reason, that they can't find a
quorum. Every second meeting is without a quorum. So they boycott these
meetings, they mean nothing with advisory powers. They just sit there like the
Cape Coloured council. The Cape Coloured become very vociferous now and
so that talking that they are doing,
African Coloured, is going to bring about some changes for the better.
I have a feeling that it's going to contribute to a change of...
GMC But that's more faith than works yet?
K- I was going to lead to that.
GMC But I don't want you to underestimate it.
K For 10 years, since these organizations began, there was nothing.
GMC- That's what they told me that there had been a desert in~etween. And
now it's actually operating.
K And the Janguages are whooo. It's much different to the languages that the
ANC and PAC platforms produced.
GMC- And you think they're getting the response among the Africans and the
others, the Coloureds. They told me there wasn't much political consciousness
but they were trying to stir it up. Is that your impression?
K Of course it will take tiie because it's new--political parties and campaigning--
that's new to them.
GMC That it's happening.
K They have legalized platforms and are using them for ... because they do not
have the respect that Matazima displayed initially.
GMC What did you see as the impact of these white student demonstrations in
St. George's and Johannesburg and the police repression?
K It's a waste of effort. They should join United or Progressive Party and
work within the system, because they're just playing into the hands of the
government. Then the government has an opportunity to demonstrate its forceful-
ness to get control.
GMC Now, Van Wyk told me he thought it had created a situation in which English-
speaking and Afrikaans were further apart, more divided, more bitter, the English-
speaking, than they had been since 1948. Would you agree?
K- No, because the Afrikaans students at Cape Town --
GMC It was the parents who said, "we're so bitter at the treatment that the
police gave the youngsters."
K The parents of the English students?
GMC Right. They're so bitter at what the police had done that he said it made
a new basis of division between English-speaking and Afrikaans.
K But this is not new. This started in 1970, the general election, the parting
of the ways. Since 1966, the Albany by-election, since 1969, that was the
first by-election in a predominantly English area, and the government expected
them to improve its position by 1,000 and then it dropped and that was the first
indication to me that English-speaking those that followed Vervkerd were sort
of turning to their traditional political home, the United Party. In the '70
general election Natal went en masse for the United Party and since them, follow-
ing the traditional lines of the past, predominantly the United Party are pre-
dominantly the English Party and the Nationalist Party are predominantly
GMC What about the old Afrikaners? Are they thoroughly in the Nats
K The old Smuts? They are lukewarm United Party supporters. They
Cherish those sentiments, its the older people. But the United Party is running
dryer every day over Afkikaner support and that if and his young radicals
are going to make it more difficult for the Afrikaners to accept him and his
radicals, this will worsen the position in the United Party as far as Afrikaners.
GMC In what sense do you call them radical? They're not radical on race
relations are they?
K They're more liberal. The supporters who helped organize their campaign are
young English c ps. The few liberals in South Africa are English.
GMC But the best liberals are usually Afrikaner, aren't they?
K They are afraid to express their views.
GMC What do the young English-speaking want? Do they want more political
rights, or just eased apartheid or something more fior the Bantustans? Have they
thought of anything?
K- I don't think they've tried to spell it out in more detail. What I'm afraid
of is they may introduce campaign tactics like thelorch Commandr had done,
will frighten the people -- something that does not fit into their political
culture. What happened on that Friday and that Saturday -- the interest was very
short-lived. They were keen because they were part of a machine to get some-
body elected, but not to work toward fulfillment of a long-term political goal
with all its hard field work, the tears and sweat. When they elected -Lt 2
on Saturday there was no excitement left. Judging from the volume of cuttings
that I read having a bearing on these homelands, oh. When Matima or Buthelezi
says something about more land -- its causing debate. Somewhere
a crack is going to develop.
GMC I'm more skeptical.
S These homelands were created by the Nationalist Party, but I'm wondering
if the fact that it is through an institution created by the whites doesn't mean,
per se, the thing is safe and something that the whites can accept, without really
being concerned -- it's going to change anyway.
K But do you thin (that can ver do away with the Bantustan, because in the eyes
of South Africans, if the government is going to move a finger one way or
another to place a damper
GMC Do you think they'd be under such criticism?
K Of course. Because they themselves, from the beginning, held this up as
the successful blueprint, the successful alternative. And now, something is
developing out of this which is scaring them.
S Part of the history of South Africa is "broken promises". Promises that
the whites have made to blacks that aren't kept. Why should one believe that
the Bantustans don't fall into that category and will be allowed to do what they're
doing until they become dangerous, if they ever become dangerous, and I wonder
about that, at which point the white government will say "you know, this thing
has gone too far, they're abusing it, we did not intend it to be this way.
Consequently, the emergency, the urgency of the situation, make it necessary foe
us to suppress them, put them out of business."
K- Well, this made a difference. All the talk about the broken promises has
had a bearing on what the Simuts and governments, non-Nationalist
governments created. They dare not break promises...
GMC That they themselves made.
K They could always, in the past, say that we were not responsible, but this
is something they used to replace outworn or defective etc. They held it ul&
as a successful blueprint.
GMC But do you believe at all fr independence for these territories?
K WeeA, they're pushing it at such a pace that I, as a liberal, am scared
they will grant them sovereign independence too soon, and it may explode. I'm
frightened that the government is really keen to wash their hands.
GMC Like the British did.
K- We can' escape whatever is going to develop, because these homelands are in
the bosom of South Africa, but Britain is 10,000 miles away. We can't escape
the "evil" that may come out.
GMC Ever so often there are real advantages to demanding their independence
now and taking it. They could get all kinds of foreign aid, they would have
all kinds of international diplomats, they would have all kinds of represen-
tation. They could get a lot. On the other hand, what can do
with nine pieces of land? Amd the Transkei would still be largely white,
and group is all over the place.
K Something else. The extent to which the constellation of the labor force
in South Africa is becoming blacker every day is going to have a tremendous
GMC That impresses more that the Bantustans.
K- Economic determinism may be the element to knock the bottom out of
separate development. Every day more and more Bantu are replacing whites in
jobs reserved for whites.
GMC Is this because the whites don't want to take those jobs?
K It's due to total and absolute shortage of white labour in South Africa.
Not even the immigrants can fill the gaps created by the expanding economy.
The natural thing to do is take in blacks, and the more blacks that are
integrated, the lesser ground for the government. Once they have become
permanent--and we must keep in mind they are citizens of the homeland, they
are voting in elections but living in white South Africa. And they can only
express views about circumstances affecting them in the white South Africa. So
the black politicians have nothing to offer them except to improve their....
S But the black politicians can't offer to improve conditions in white areas.
they have no leverage.
K But promise they will talk to the whites. If they want you to work for them,
they must be able to improve working conditions, wages. There's something else--
black trade unions. I think the Bantu should accept the idea to have black
trade unions in the homelands. Naturally, those unions will be the instruments...
GMC for organizing in the urban areas.
K- For what purpose would you have black trade unions in the Bantu area if
they can't be of any help. Homeland citizens work in the white areas.
S The resistance to forming trade unions is not from the Africans, it's from
K The government has committed itself that they must form their own trade
unions in the homelands.
S But not with the workers in the urban areas.
K They can use these as instruments to speak for...
GMC If they have a trade union, say can they then use that
to negoNiate on behalf of Zulus in the urban areas?
K All those that work in the coal mines. The black trade unions established
in the homeland have to speak on behalf of the Zulus --the thousands of migrant
GMC In Malawi they negotiated better conditions for the Malawians working
in South Africa, But I don't know if any of the BLS countries have or not.
The Swazi's have nearly withdrawn theirs.
& i. AJoLaJOACA&VI
S Lesotho has representative jbs=#e but as far as I know...
GMC But there's noL formal negotiation. In Malawi there is, they showed me
the provisions -- not pushing them out, about wages, about stability and so on--
that they have preferred conditions.
S I think they may finally have committed to paper the status quo.
GMC Well, they said they were better than the conditions under which other
workers from outside were working and that they can't be thrown out of their
job without reference to the local representative. When they go on contract.
Now this is the individual workers in Mr. Jone"s household -- these are the
contract workers in the mines. Most of whom probably have some extra skills.
But this is one of the things they're rather proud of, their relationship, that
the/ve got out of the general run of the mill.
K It's up to the homeland governments to concern themselves about the lot of
their... and the blacker the labour force in white South Africa becomes, the more
reason for a stronger foothold in economic development and political development
in the homelands. This creates new opportunities for pressure of some kind.
GMC This most recent group that went out, the Advisory Committee from the State
Department, the group I used to be in. They went out and made various proposals
for what the U.S. government, which is committed to exchanges and contacts,
what they should do. And among the things that they thought they should go
into are homelands. They should be supporting technical training, agricultural
schools, give advice on technical assistance int he Bantustans and so on; do you
think this is feasible under present conditions -- that an outside power goes
in to do those kinds of things?
K But then they must get opinions.
GMC They they're free to do this. They said the PM was not against this.
K For a South African to invest and for outsiders, it has to be channeled
through the Bantu r-ge4W erjL.h t according to the conditions
laid down and nobody is keen to accept that. When the Bantustans become
sovereign independents, of course then...
GMC But they checked this out with all of the political parties including
the government and the cabinet and they were not opposed to the idea of
American technical advice.
K But it has to be channeled through: the South African government, through ItkL
development corporation. They committed themselves that within the next 5 years,
three or four will be independent. The next step is sovereign independence.
GMC There's a very nice article in here about them saying that they're
confused because they've been promised independence in '61 and ever time the
government comes and kills cattle and says, "Now you're independent" and they
say "we don't know what the difference is." This is the third time they've done
K Now think also that the Bantu are also
It's within their power to make their back straight and to stand up. They are
only beginning to sense now the significance of the instruments granted them.
GMC But I still think as long as they are so small, they have no...
S The thing I have a lot of trouble with is both the ideas that companies
or homeland governments represent the workers in their ethnic group and the
second one, that foreign involvement represents, in essence, strengthening
of the Bantustan.
K U.S. business involvement?
GMC They say this mustn't happen but still they make all the provisions.
S They strengthen these institutions, which means that the attempted fraud
has succeeded in a sense that the Africans have been encouraged to channel all
their OripheJr- activities through these Bantustans, who have bee looking away.
K I think it would b a great mistake for America to stop its business
involvement in South Africa.
GMC I just read a very interesting article in The World Today about the
census results of the 1970 census. The proportion of population, if it
continues the way it is, is radically changing so that by 2,000, by present
population trends, the white population will only by 11%. Another thing is
the enormous concentration of Africans just north of the Rand, where so many
of these territories, where they're workers, they're not really Bantustan
types. They're turning them into new Bantustans, but they really are the workers,
and they're within...
K Like where the population will ultimately be 100,000.
GMC Now those people, it seems to me, are the ones who are really significant
in terms of their potential power.
S Don't think for one minute they will channel their political activities
GMC But they are the ones who are to have their own political identity.
K- But those spots -, ,__ I ..... and __, are integral
parts of white South Africa.
GMC But they're being identified as being separate.
K But that idea is short-lived. Soon they will have to conceive the fact
that they have come to stay. More and more people are beginning to
see through all this, that it's absurd to talk of these people as temporary
GMC But let's put up an argument. Either they have to be accepted as
integral parts of the white community and white industrial, or else, if they
are going to be demarcated, as in 1964, they were demarcatiic them as Bantu,
not real homelands but as special territories. If they're going to demarcate
100,000 workers as an African area which has its own control, I think they
are genuinely building up something which has power by giving them a political
organization that they can combine with their economic power. You give them
a chance to organize in a way in which you don't give Zulu, predominant ly
scattered and largely illiterate and impoverished agriculturists.
K An additional hope for change is that in the by-elections, I think the
United party will make progress, with one or two of the seats. It is also
going to contribute to a situation of change. If the government loses one or
more, we're going to have another election soon, next
GMC You think they're so frightened at losing one or more seats?
K If they lose one or two by-elections, they would have to face the fact that
the United Party is on the way up.
GMC Well, then they won't have another election.
K- They!:l1 have a election and concede a further 10 or 15 seats
and still have a safe majority the next fiver years. Only 30 seats have to change
hands and the majority is gone. And changes of government in South Africa
developed over the past 60 years over situations that were created overnight.
Nobody foresaw development, so if the government loses one or two by-elections
it will create a sort of situation of panic. We will have another general
election, they may lose a further 10 to 15 and that might make the situation
favorable for a new realignment.
GMC Do you believe this race conf ration that the UP is talking about? They've
got another big statement on it.
K They announced that just before I left, so I haven't been able to study the
details. This is not a factor in this loosening up of political attachments.
There are large numbers of government supporters who have become too to
conform just to be difficult.
GMC You think it might give an opening to blacks to press their points more?
K An abcess in the political realignment at present will create a ray of hope
GMC You thknk any kind of change breaks the log-jam, is that it?
K- It may lead to some sort of uncertainty and the uncertainty may lead to
further uncertainty and panic.