Title: Transcripts of interviews conducted by Gwendolen M. Carter, 1972-1985
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Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00095707/00001
 Material Information
Title: Transcripts of interviews conducted by Gwendolen M. Carter, 1972-1985
Physical Description: Archival
Language: English
Creator: Carter, Gwendolen M.
Donor: Gwendolen M. Carter Collection ( endowment )
Publication Date: 1972
Copyright Date: 1972
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Bibliographic ID: UF00095707
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: University of Florida
Holding Location: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.

Full Text

Ray Tucker ._ e3L

RT -- There were student demonstrations, mainly but not exclusively on the campus during
this one week in June. They were mainly demonstrations, on the first day of the week,
following the Cape Town episode.

GMC Yes, at St. George's.

RT They had the local march and the next day a number of them were arrested on
a number of trivial offenses. They were marching, and holding posters and walking
and various things. .

GMC Just being themselves.

RT Then there were more demonstrations during the week but ultimately on Friday the
polite decided at a conference that morning that they were going to stop the demonstrations.
The head of the police during that week had been a man called Brigadier Schroeder who gave
to the students immediately and was .

GMC To the right.

RT waa a kindly and fatherly figure. In fact by the end of the week they had posters,
Schroeder for P.M. They looked on him as a protector.

GMC Was he putting on a mask or was he sincere?

RT No, I think he was genuine. I think he genuinely wanted to know
In fact he told the students on Thursday that it was all right for them, as far as he was
concerned, if they kept it on the Wits campus with order, as longexdas they moved off the
On Friday, there was a tremendous concentrationvon the center island of Jan Smuts Avenue,
(of plain clothes, tough looking men)
GMC Right up near the University?

RT Right in front of the university, near the old entrance to the university, the
common area. A number of students, which included

causing a superficial disturbance, can you get rid of them and he said "don't worry,
we'll be doing something in regard to that soon." realized what was going
to happen that Brigadier Schroeder was going to use he said,
to break up this gathering. The Minister had prohibited public meetings in an open
area . .

GMC- I remember that was i between .

RT This was in the course of that month. Early in the week, the protest was all about
police brutality, repression of one kind or another. But by Friday the demonstrators got
back to the education theme. Now, what happened was just before 3:00, Brigadier showed
up, gave an order for the students to disperse and said that police action would be taken
against them. Some students put down their banners and posters and started to walk away,

some just walked away, some just sat down, very few just remained. But in a couple of
minutes, they may have well been off, one never knows. The group on the second island
the students.
they in fact turned out to be playing third basemen.

GMC So they were acting as were they?

RT Nofquite that is, their presence had an aggravating effect
because it got around the campus that they were menacing the students and people came
up from elsewhere on the campus, not to participate in the demonstration, but to protect
the students. When it came to evidence in court, I should say that over sixteen were
arrested, . .

GMC Sixteen?

RT No, over sixty. We that night
the court refused to allow them out on bail and we were unsuccessful. We had a special
court convene on Sunday afternoon for the students to be released on bail, they were
released on 100 = each. And in due course various.charges were withdrawn
against some of the accused. I should have added that that was the first raid
and at about 5:00 there was a further raid and included in that number of sixty there
were about twenty odd students who were arrested later in the afternoon. By the time
the matter came to trial, quite a number had the charges withdrawn against them because
the prosecutor had realized that there was no warning given to the 5:00 people to
disperse. And ultimately about forty-two were charged and a few of those were discharged
of evidence and a couple of more were discharged at the end of the
state case. By the time I
the defense case had closed but we hadn't yet argued and hadn't yet had inspection
in loco and so on. Now, it was a constitution case
because tt emerged quite clearly from the constitution case they were less interested
in dispersing the gathering than in stopping the protests, teaching the students
and getting them arrested. They caught one
the reason why we used plain clothes men is that, it was
was that if they had the uniformed policemen there, the student's would have reacted to
the warning and would have left.

GMC Oh no. They are remarkably open about this motive?

RT Well, they were remarkably open at the trial, but not always. And you found, for
Most of them said we arrested person X because he was at the prohibited gathering.
And that was the offense. There is no offense for attending a political gathering.
The offense is failing to disperse or depart when the warning is given and repeatedly

GMC Even when there has been a prohibited gathering? Is there a real difference
then between a prohibited gathering and a non-prohibited gathering?

RT -nThere's no difference from this point of view that there is an ordinary gathering

the police have to give the same warning and failure to attend -
that constitutes the effects. And the people aren't aware of it.

And that is what they arrested the students for. Some of them they chased right on to
the campus,

GMC Because as I read it in the STAR it said, I also have some STARS upstairs if you
would like to read them. Well anyway, as I understood it part of the problem was that
they had chased them into the campus where they shouldn't have.

RT One of the argumentsin the court was whether or not
that part of Wits campus was a public place. Because the incorporated in
thd definition of a public place, a private place where the public had access.

GMC And that is then different from the campus as such?

RT Well, this part of the campus is an area which could be a public place. In any
event, at the end of the case we argued tremendously that the state hadn't
proved there had been a failure to disperse because the act hadn't been complied
with. Because the act is quite clear that police officers had to order people to dis-
perse and if they don't disperse, then force will be used and he had to repeat that
statement, that order, three times. He didn't. He told them three times that they
had to disperse but 6nly in the last warning did he say that police action would be

taken. Now this action

from a force because of number photographs of

the accused. They could summon them, they could go up and arrest an individual and

there was nothing to tell these students that they were policemen. And when the

magistrate contemptously dismissed us, he had no reason whatsoever. He had at

dismissed every argument tendered on behalf of the accused and we are quite happy to

find that he is working with the The Prosecutor
to do certain things
could not have known xkaxxixJx~KtamaRvK at a certain time if he hadn't known the

Magristrate was getting dismissal

In fact, we even uncovered an informer amongst the accused. And we go so far as to

suggest that it was the sister of

the informer we . representations were made to the magistrate at a very high level.

I'll tell you why. Because at the end of the state case we tried for the discharge of

a large number of the accused on the basis of that the state had not proved any case

against them whatsoever. There was just no case at all. On the state's own admission,

tkxpax the persons weren't even walking or running from the scene of the demonstration

and some minutes after the total dispersal

I saw this person put down her I saw them move


GMC You were there, I see.

RT No, this is the evidence the police gave.I saw her run from south to north some A

distance up the campus and this wasn't the direction that

which would have been from east to west. And he said "I had arrested her because she

had been at a general demonstration and that's all." Now, there is no case in the

world against this person, but the application was discharged. Now, there was just

one girl who was not

going to make application because we thought that they were a prima facie case and

you had to go tb the box to explain it. And we were

just about to finish the application when they said, what about

and my counselor looked at with amazement and said, well I

Perhaps Pam Williamson as well. And Pam Williamson

The Prosecutor in answering our counsel said I oppose all the accused except two of

them. When it came to giving his findings, the magistrate discharged those two

that the prosecutor didn't oppose and I discharge the other person whom the

prosecutor did oppose. And the

The Prosecutor started off as quite a decent guy

I think this was partly because he wasn't allowed to conduct his case .

GMC The way he Ian thought he should.

RT Because from the reports we have, he seemed to be the kind of guy, who if

he didn't have kka a case against an accused, he would drop it. And he told us at

one stage that k8 this case was being watched very carefully by much higher


GMC I gather that in Cape Town a number of them were released, including the Dean.

RT That was the first caee. The Dean was the first case . .

GMC Yes, and the Dean's wife was acquitted. Was she? I thought that she was

acquitted they said that it couldn't be proved that she had done anything that


RT You know, the same point arose in a Cape Town trial that the state hadn't given
the proper warning to disperse and when we left judgement had been xaxaxxeK in that as

well Cape Town matter.

in Johannesburg the same afternoon and they

came up before another magistrate who really is a great guy. We would have like to

have him pretty much

GMC Who is the magistrate?

RT His name is Daines. I mentioned a man called deVallier; He's not the same

DeV\llier who conduced the
GMC That was a shocker if ever there was nei one.

RT I must say that our students, my s Aak ids~irxle accused, did everything possible

to antagonize this magistrate. I think he was getting his own bakk.

GMC I see, they really, what did they do just . .

RT Well, they ate, they read comics, theyxpataxK played chess, understandably,

because they were bored. He did say, about the third day, or shortly afterwards,

"I don't mind your studying,"which was very fair indeed but I think they wore

bracelets that jingled and they came in late when, they giggled, they just

irritated him. Now the magistrate dismissed the case against the journalist, which
was principally
xkxi;kky on the basis that there was no evidence they hadn't given a warning the

fixxxkxkima to disperse at 5:00 there was no obligation on their part to go

GMC If you get a good one, they still will uphold the bench?

RT Yes, yes I think so. There was an incident in Cape Town involving an earlier

incident a couple of months back, where, well it was the origin of all the

in Cape Town a question of

and then kept when charged. Now, if tkKxa he appeared in court on the question of

a breach of some by-law, there is no doubt about it that the magistrate deliberately

misled the defense into thinking that he was so whipped that there was

no need for the defense to get into it. And the nature (f his questions, thelines of
argument, and the points he was raising he closed the case without calling the ,

and it may well be that on Friday he was -tlky, because by Monday when he gave his

judgement either he decided to change his mind or he never wanaRi x was
f he- e-Xpc ccf -/O
but he convicted the accused and gave one long lecture on how s+uspects-sheu4

behave. t c-u A confident.
GMC How do you explainX that they're going to hard for the white students and

not for the Africans now? Do you think they see them as more of a threat?

RT Yes, I think it's part of a pattern which is now clearly.

Woman I don't kibk think that ikxRxa~ it's not that they're going for the Afrieans,

it's just that they've never gone for white students before.

GMC But after all, it was the Africans who started this.

RT -

GMC Well, that's true. They came back, of course.

RT But it is essentially white student activities. But its part of thd fact of
attacking the wkfis speaking university, its part of the peripheral of the inquiry

GMC Could that go on, because I don't hear anything about it at all?

RT You won't hear, because its a secret inquiry.

GMC Of course, its a parliamentary committee isn't it?

RT Not only of
any investigative
organization, but any associated kadl related booy of, and actually has

gone much, much further.

GMC So it really Xknia is going on all the time, is it?

RT Well, just before we left, the was being investigated.

GMC I presume you've seen well this is only June but it takes

forever to get here.
RT Nothing which takes place in that ismmkikka can be reported on. The fact of

actually having given evidence can't be reported on.

GMC Oh, he did give it, did he? So he said first that he wouldn't, didn't he?

RT He said he wouldn't, unless compelled by law, and they've now been compelled by law.

GMC I see, but he's not under house arrest they took his passport, is that what

they did?

RT passport. They

same way that it's people at the

Institute of Race Relations, and Christian Institutes also, passports are here.

GMC Including Fred?

RT No. at the sort of second-run level.

GMC I see. Does it?

GMC lost his? What happened about BETEQ Did he decide to

testify or not to because this was supposed to be quite a

in February and I never heard the end of it.

Woman He probably will, but I don't know.

RT I think the CIA's been giving him notes.

GMC Rxka Perhpps again they will have to be forced by law.

RT Yes, I'm sure so. The reservation has agreed to cooperate, of

course, and submit a memoranda and he's g6ing along with it up to a point.

GMC You think that this is preliminary to banning them all?

RT Not them all. Not preliminary to banning or the Institute.

But certainly I think preliminaries part against YUSEp and its leaders.

Perhaps its leaders first and then later on.

GMC I know that Fred was very concerned about whether they would try to prevent the

multi-racial character of the Institute. Do you think there's Bay danger of that?

RT It can't be excluded but what particularly can't be excluded is that they'll

stop money from coming in from overseas for the purposes of that organization and

I think particularly for legal defense. From the Dean's trial it was perfectly

clear, and from other trials the evidence that were

funded from overseas.

GMC The dean said that he was continuing to send money in and that there were groups

that would receive it, but I don't know. Isn't there a committee which was formed to

receive money?

RT I don't know of anything like that.

GMC But the STAR says that Molder is at least straight, even if he's very right-

wing, but at least you know where you stand with him. Would you question that?

RT He changed the drug laws which provided for further

Woman I think right-wing is potentially more

GMC And you think it's more dangerous say than

Woman I think is more honest than

GMC Of course Molder is not out-and-out and makes a little xpKKe

but probably is.

RT I that the question of danger

the quality is essentially established. Well, I think that the way things are going

at the moment, with anti-church, anti-students and anti-press, that's English press,

that the is there and the crunch is killing.

Woman It seems that leaving more of an impression that

he's not doing whatever it is he's doing

GMC You don't, because he was, a lot of people bave been saying this for ages now,

that he's probably the protestor. We're not to put him out. But this success, I

suppose in the Transvaal election will have pushed Molder way ahead. What do you

think about Schwartz coming into in the kxxak Transvaal for the UP, will this make

any xak real difference?

Woman No, he's thoroughly reactionary.

GMC is.

Woman But when you look at what's happened last year when the kids staged the

Rppublic festival and there and

on every occasion and eventually came and it was good for

him he did come

and of course there was one of him and twenty-two of them and he was locked out completely

from his quarters

GMC He was probably furious then.

RT He was.
Woman He MH quite well at the actual meeting and then afterwords

but it's only which makes

it even worse that he should have this kind of conflict with students.

GMC You don't think that he's the great helper of the UP. They keep saying now kkak

it's a new day for the UP.

RT The UP resisted leadership to oppose it and they're may

be someone a little more vital, more energetic within the party but in terms of the

changes of UP policy this is . .

Woman They never say anything bbout the very fact that is a Jew.

GMC Oh yes, I hadn't thought about that.

Woman He has a tpp, a major position in the United Israeli Party, a very interesting


GMC Well I see that my friend Buthelezi says that Bantustaans are out, he says

there's nothing to Bantustaans, it's white politics for white purposes. That was

quoted in the latest AFRICA CONFIDENTIAL, he was quoted as saying this. Are they

really so discouraged by the land settlement, which I would think they would be?

You know, the reallocation of land.

RT It's in the proposal of where all the worth-while

sugar lands whites and the blacks getting more land than

the proposal, but it's hilly land, rocky land,

The interesting

GMC (t actually true that they can't move without permission, because this was

said and then contradicted, that they cannot make a trip even to see fellow black

x 10

Bantustan leaders without Ramm permission from Pretoria.

Woman It

GMC That's what I thought.

Woman -

GMC It hasn't actually been put into affect at all?

RT They do practice it. They do security and other

and security frequently wants to know who he is and

GMC Well, I know that, but I wonderedJ because again in this recent issue that came

today of AFRICAN CONFIDENTIAL they emphasized again the difficulties of movement and

I wondered whether there had been any real change there.

RT Well, one never really knows what goes on behind the scenes there.

is nov becoming a rallying force

kxt among the Zulus as well.

GMC This I think is really great, and I think this he intended to be, but watk

what he can do I mean, you rally for what?

RT time and time again at the Council on Foreign Relations

and the Ford Foundation and innumerable bodies, the State Department, what I think of

Buthelezi I think, I myself,

consider the Bantustans to be a political force

Whether Buthelezi is being heard in lots of quarters, he's saying things,

which result in other people being banned or in exile or in jail.

GMC That's right, and they at least can say it.

RT And I think its terribly important that Buthelezi's position as a leader

of the Zulus be built upam up, not in a manner which is to give support

to the Bantustan ideal notion, but to build him up in the eyes

schools, technical training colleges, clinics, things of this kind, where he can say

this is mine, this is what I have got for my people, and the government can't say this

is what we have provided.

GMC Mr. Nixon, who is now taking credit for the social security increases, which

makes me so mad, but anyway, they probably tried to do it.

RT Well I think it's important that he does it, because it's very useful, making

Most leaders have come and gone, making demands, seeming to try to heop and aX nothing

comes of it.

GMC I think it's essential. I think he's great, I'm very positive about him, but

oh my. I had a letter a week ago and he said I'm just as tired as I was when I saw

you in February, or in January. And I'm sure this is the case. Fortunately, he's got

a lot of stamina but this is really a terrible drag.

Woman -

GMC Is he not, really. He looks alright, except that he looks so, sort of drawn.

Well, it's so terrible to fight one every count, you know the students shout at him

because he is, and the government shouts at him because he won't do things and so on.

It's a terribly tough position.

Woman -

GMC But they did for a while. Against him, because he told me that when he went

there first they shouted at him.

Woman -

GMC Now they're all right? Well, I'm glad about that because, at least if he gets

his people back home to recognize what he's doing. Tell me what you think about

RT I know very little about IT-re_" _ really. He went through a period which

he was highly suspected by other black people and certainly was angry with

the Peogressive Party for having after he became an inter-racial

party, but I

GMC My local friendX says that he works for one of the faxk fat-cats in Seto and

therefore he's suspected. Are there fat-cats in Sweto?

Woman -- C od b u abuttt

GMC You wouldn't be too sure about that.

RT you createxux suspicions and people can never live them


GMC Why do you think has not got a passport, is he really that dangerous?

Or do you think they're just tired of letting people come out and talk.

GMC You think it's just that .

Women Well, he's very active in labor and he

GMC Pat, do you think there's any significance to it Black people's Convention.
Woman I think it could be a very powerful force.
Is it still riddled with dissension?

Woman It was initially, but I believe by the end of that conference there were

all kinds of things during it, there was a great deal of unity.

GMC Was there a Kimberley Conference, when?

Pat It was a couple of months ago.

GMC Because that's the kind of thing that I just missd'You know, it's maddening to

me because I was there the Sunday at which they met in Johannesburg,

it's like those old fashioned continued stories where the heiress is always hanging

over the cliff, and the villian is just cutting the rope, and you never know what

happens. You must go on for seventeen more installments.

Pat -

GMC How long have you been here?

RT Three weeks.

GMC Fred told me they were-having real difficulty, the Black Political Convention,

they were torn, and I know that Moerarnlwas aqa, should we really have a black move-

ment or shouldn't we have an African and Coloured and Indian movement. And NkomoO'

was going for him on that.

Pat -

GMC Does he?

RT I think he has some difficulty in the past also in getting

GMC I don't know. I didn't meeting him until that night, that day wexa were at

this meeting and there he didn't say very much, but what he said made an awful lot

of sense, about what kind of organization he'd been trying to arrange.

Pat I've never met him at all, but he seems to be a very colorful person.

GMC Yes. And also in the Catholic Church he was very active . .

Pat -

GMC And was thrown out, wasn't he?

Pat -

GMC I see. And walked out on it. What do you feel about Saso? Do you think its

got a chance to continue?

RT Well, I feel very strongly about SASO. And I'm very much -,~ -cr o r'1 JA O .

GMC Oh, are you? Well, that's interesting. Why?

RT Because s .

GMC Much of the African side too, yes. Go ahead.

RT language is the same language .a3 the Afrikaaner. Just try to delete the

work Black and put in AfrikaoPand you've got exactly the same racialiam. Or even

similar. The differences of course are principally that the Afrikaaner could affect
0_/ axed d; 4
te change in his situation through the provincial patterns of sc^cL^L&

and so on. -C<-<--- _-cuLc -

I'm getting away from the point. Their foundation is flimsXy and the problem is we

couldn't achieve our proper status in a multi-racial organization proposal

And in fact, what I was saying is we're second-raters and because of this we had to

have an organization in which we could be the top-raters, very much

the organization itself. zouL t2

C^~~-c ^^^^^^z^^^ ^4~~~l -^^^ ^ ^A
^Cj^J -^ ^ ~aAy "-^ > /5--<^^Jee-

and ask them

for the funds, for the conference. When they

wae XiKixIka once again organize his students and made contacts with

GMC And they threw Sono out, wasn't it, mho when he proposed working with Buthelezi

We've offered Sono a fellowship here. I don't know whether he's going to get out or

not. I don't know wbKkKax where he is because we've offered him a fellowship to come

and work with Brutus in African literature.

Pat He got his passport

RT He was greatly praised in the Afrixan' vkt-eh over the radio for his reasonable
Wka.xfixwax One of my objections to ASASO is their attitude toward Buthelezi because

they are working on the axxmxmpisw x assumption that the opposition to the white

regime started in 1969 or 1970.

GMC This is what my African friend kept saying, completely unhistorical.

RT They have no knowledge of what has happened before hkal

or any other

organization and it's something..

GMC But now, could you argue the other way that only by being arrogant, only by

cutting themselves off fromfthe past, only by taking on all these Afrikainer pretentions

have they any chance of achieving something.

Pat I don't know if its achieving, its wanting a non-racial society

GMC That's right, I quite agree.

Pat Which ever way it comes it comes to black vs. white

or simply because he's black, and you're white. And if you'ee ever wanted to see a

non-racial society the black students

who support him. Now he's even seen that they will fight their way, we will fight

our way to the end.

Rather naive.

GMC Who said this, Pat?

Pat -

Afrikahner and English to white and black.

GMC I suppose this is the case. I think I have some sympathy in the sense of

having belb battered down after all these years and all the madexak k moderate,

reasonable positions that have been taken

Pat I think one does have sympathy but just as one cannot excuse behavior

along those lines or many other behaviors of black Africa

GMC No, I don't think you excuse them, perhaps you understand them, or something.

But, after all, I wonder what happens when they leave. I mean, have they any chance

of establishing something that continues after their 4wrttsh rather privileged position

as students.

Pat Well, there is a possibility that in time

GMC This was the idea of the blakk political movement, wasn't it?

RT The students consider it a black consciousness and a reestablishment of their

dignity which has been completely destroyed, for which I would support totally.

Pat But black consciousness means, in my terms, black power.

A consciousness of what being black means.

RT both black

consciousness and their dignity. This is absolutely essential.

Pat black power which is something else again.

RT I don't deny the need for black organization, and to make use of whatever

community forces there are but I think at this stage at least, that this is an

intellectual group of people who . many of them, for example, those at

support of their parents. But I think it is removed fromthe body

of the population, many of whom have learnt that ax an organization will speak powerful

words initially control to the security police control to the

other laws and control

GMC One thing that does impress me is that they seem to have Asians in and a few


Pat -

GMC Is there still.

Pat There are people who want to kick the Asians out. But then

GMC Yes, well this is the thing which is interesting now, because that's at least a

movement toward something thats-a little bit bigger than this complete, one to one.

Pat -

I think that our dignity and consciousness it would be fantastic.

GMC Is there not more of this in some of the rural areas?

Pat We discussed in the rural areas. I'm quite sure most of the Zulus

GMC It seems to, as one goes around, but you know how difficult it is to judge

But I went into Zulu settlements in lower Natal that I thought were terribly poor but so

completely themselves.

Pat I think perhaps they always have been.

GMC Thats what I wonder too, whether they haven't been more of that.

Pat -

extraordinary pp people.

GMC But the other they seem really decimated. I can't make it out

on the one hand, you've got three-quarters of a million people in Pweto, maybe more and

onl the other hand they seem to be picked off by out or Special Branch or

perhaps being drawn off by wealth, I don't know. I found it very difficult to get any

sense of what they were like.

Pat -

RT I think we were in Sweto once.

GMC Is it quiet life.

Side 2
4A P
GMC RpaKKi*Kaii specifically for this purpose and then we teke the number of people
A tfij oft, LiS
like Congress Mbata and so on about their recollections of the mea&s.ve movement which

was the purpose of the exercise we were working collecting documents and collecting

this material and so on, but I've never done it before because I fUiaxxy find it so
splendid if I can ever get sometkige to transcribe it which my secretary isn't very good

at. I don't quite know what, but still. At least A remember a great deal more of askt

what is said than I do if I don't otherwise. I have a little book that has it all in

that nobody else sees. But you were saying

RT apartheid policy

is its refusal to up middle-class, and insisting on weakening the middle-class
at every opportunity.
Pat The situation in Sweto is very understandable and at the same time very appalling.

You must meet Constance FSI -O

She is typical, she is

and a man called

GMC He's the one that is wki with, isn't he?
millionaires and
Pat These people are they're 1kexa capitalists

of the worst order they give nothing, they do nothing. When you do finally . .

GMC Yes I know,- you . .

Pat You also think, my God. establish a school

in Sweto

GMC- But he's not going.0o. How does he manage it Pat, because there was this provision

that you could only own one business, wasn't there.

Pat I think this came after he established an enormous chain of businesses.

GMC I thought they had tlr x to sell them, maybe if it's one kind, but you're not

supposed to have a grocery store and . .

Pat I think he can't establish any more.

GMC I see. But still he's already so wealthy.

Pat He's terribly wealthy so is she. It's not their grocery stores, The prices

in grocery stores in are immeasureably high.


and they compared prices at the supermarkets in the poorer white area compared to the

supermarket in Sweto and they averaged out to about 5 or 6 cents more.

GMC But you know, I'm not so surprised because it's true here in the ghetto, you know.

Pat Even so, And it's true in Chicago, it's the same thing. For one thing, of course,

it's more dangerous here. But for another, the people aren't willing to their

pace to the people who are there, I guess. But, it makes you sick, really. I don't know

why one should be more disturbed because blacks exploit blacks 90 white exploit blacks or

whites exploiting whites but you are, at least I am.

RT I'll tell you why you are. Because it's being concerned with blacks all the time.

You like to think that in a community all of them are concerned the way

you are.

GMC Yes. Concerned with Xka each other.

Pat -

GMC I know, and this is exactly why I have this different feeling for these two

black girls who were in this house I wouldn't have stopped for a minute if two white

girls had acted the way they did, I'd have thrown them out on their ear. I did in fact

in December when one of them was tiresome, it never occurred to me not to. Somehow or

other one has a different feeling there. I guess it's the new sensitivity or something.

RT One of the things that Dr. points out in regard to South African students

generally is that while virtually everywhere in the world student demonstrators have been

concerned with something which indirectly a:ikxaxakix concerns himself.

So you have the French students who consider the educational conditions and the American

student who has been concerned with Viet Nam and the possibility of themselves being

drafted they may not have said, well we don't want to be drafted, but the South

African students have done very little demonstrating either about the conditions of

his own education He has almost

entirely related his protests to the conditions of black persons, persons R&xdARkxR RR
under detention, separate laws and things of this kind.

GMC That's good, of course. It's impressive. You don't think that they see the danger
of the spillover. If you get people picked up on xmaki charges or very few charges. .

Pat I think they do. They protest about

GMC That they could see that that might move up on them.

RT It's a possibility that sometimes

Pat -

GMC Then they get . But why do you think they did it just now? Do you think it is

because the black students had taken a stand so generally after the
Pat The situation on the white campuses in Africa is a most depressing one. It has

been for many years. There is no spirit of protest at all. There is no spirit of

anything at all.

GMC But wba was that after this?

Pat No, it was before this. Only weeks before this whole thingX started in Capfe Town

when the was organizing one protest or another, they were handing outleaflets on

the campus to tell everyone what they were protesting about and kids were refusing to

take these, even to look at them, let alone to get involved in whatever it was that was

being done at the time and this is very much the situation on all the campuses except

Cape Town where they have

Had the St. George's thing not happened Cape Town would never have

at all. They didn't protest the education in fact, they protested what happened in Cape


GMC But how did Cape Town you think that was due to the President of

and the Dean perhaps?

Pat Not really. I think even with Cape Town, what started off as a very tiny protest

about admi;kikxxatKk education, organized by a few people who were against one of our

a few people who were involved and did care, became this huge thing.

It began publically and public always attracts more people. And once the

police moved in, well that was it. There are only 6,000 people at Cape Town University

so that's 16,000

GMC Yes, from a lot of other places.

Pat And once again there was a tremendous
and once this thing had happened on Friday, people were very badly frightened. The

case appeared in court a couple of months later, there wasn't a single student in the

gallery to watch them.
RT On any day during this trial you could count the number of students on one hand.

What I think happened was that simply there was a feeling that if something happens to

Cape Town, can Wits be far behind.

Johannesburg, he gaee a speech which was a provoking speech, he didn't way what he had

to, he said it's not for me to tell you what to do.

the amount of support that they got, and by the next week it was dead and by the week

after the series of protests, the whole thing was dead.

Pat AT Cape Town they had 15 people standingxhafmxaxthkkixEi q;u anuxx for 14 positions

no leadership.

GMC I met a few of them at and there was a nice girl whom I *axk guess

cameout . .

Pat That was Virginia(?) she haid just been. . Immediately before the

thing was thrown out.

GMC Oh. By the students?

Pat Well they did they resigned, but in effect if they hadn't resigned they would

have been thrown out, by the students.

RT There was a very good cartoon about . .

GMC Oh yes, about the the toilet cartoon and so on, this nonsense.

Pat credibility among

the students. So by the time this student business started they hadn't reestablished

They had no leader-

ship at all.
The incomnn9 president went to Switzerland or
The Qx kfwho took over is a goodi
good kid,^c^ , z e_

GMC Yes, he hasn't got a sense of reality.

RT was in fact, one of the accused in this trial.

GMC I thought so.

RT Now, these people could activate it up to a point, but their activation is lost.

GMC I see. So, it's not that encouraging. Do you think their parents were terribly

upset do you think this made a real

That's what Fred was saying.

RT It will be interestlyg really, because I was involved in the protest arrests that

week the Tuesday lot and the Friday lot.

Among those on the first night there were some very good people supporting

them, but some very bad indeed. Same with the Tuesday, I think they were most hostile

on Tuesday

The Friday batch, I think, were a very concerned batch. They were obviously

Pat They were just Plain scared.

GMC And the police didn't tell anybody.

Pat Well, they knew that lots of kids were being arrested and there was this whole

business of keeping them for an entire weekend, and their parents

RT The students were bitterly attacked by the Afrikaans press and I think on the whole
got ickkkfl support from the English press.

talkO of support was a very superficial one and would break very quickly indeed.

GMC Even with the overriding presumed threat of black .

RT That was misleading on my part. I believe that just below the surface there is

a very strong anti-British feeling.

GMC I would understand that and I suspect that while they are willing to stand together

in Cape,tkl y they think, when they're facing a bigger danger, they really hate each

others guts.

Pat -
tend to stick together because of a bigger problem.

if it weren't that all whites

RT There economic level it's constantly.

GMC What about Ben? Is he shall I turn it off.

RT Well his appeal is coming up October of

November, we're not sure.

GMC He insisted on going ahead with the appeal?

Pat I think he has no alternative.

GMC Yes, well you thought so too, didn't you?

RT The question is in regard to a magazine as seen from a book, which is banned

under the Supression of Communism act does the banning order only apply to certain

editions, or does it apply to editions prior to the order, and this is an important

point as to the law.

GMC What's the otheran one Pat?

Pat The other one is that

GMC Yes, I was scared and so was his wife.

GMC This wasn't on the appeal, this was on the original one.

Pat It was onO the original one because

really thought anything else was happening.

GMC And Benji was scardd to death of it, I know. He said it's all very well to shout

at them when you're on your feet, but when you're in prison you know, lick their boots.

RT In fact, Benji will probably suffer Hick more than anybody else.

Of course the very people against whom he wrote are there.

RT The point is, Benji couldn't write, or couldn't publish. Nobody would publish

what he wrote because anybody would fear another


GMC I supposed after the the original one.

RT Well, it would have to be in a foreign paper.

GMC So it comes up, you don't know when.

Pat I think it's the first of November.

GMC I must say I shall hold bk my breath on it. Well, you even more, because of

course you're there. But do you think he'll leave then?
commi tteed
Pat I read an article that Benji has been cammBixxiswa (?) to stay in South Africa.

GMC Oh, he's left those apartments?

Pat Yes, and moved into a house in

GMC It all sounds very much as if he's settled. She's a lovely girl.

Just wonderful. The second evening that I was there she was there, and several others,

friends of hers, but Benji was on night duty and she was just lovely.

Pat She's cut through so much nonsense, she's not politically committed art is

her thing and it's marvelous for her to have it because she doesn't have the nonsense


GMC But I-st11 still see that tremendous picture that she's painted of that

grotesque .

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