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Interview with John Kenneth Morland, February 20, 2002

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Title:
Interview with John Kenneth Morland, February 20, 2002
Creator:
Morland, John Kenneth ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:
Language:
English

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Subjects / Keywords:
Southern Regional Council Oral History Collection ( local )

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Source Institution:
University of Florida
Holding Location:
University of Florida
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Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/.
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SRC 10 ( SPOHP IDENTIFIER )

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Full Text





SRC -10 Morland, page 1

P: Here we are in Lynchburg, Virginia on February 20, 2002. I=m here with John Kenneth Morland,

former professor and chair of the department of sociology and anthropology at Randolph-Macon

Women=s College in Lynchburg. We thought we=d have a little chat about events and people in

his life. We=re on tape one. Welcome to your own home Ken.

M: Thank you, it=s good to be here, it=s good to have you here.

P: Ken, I know you were originally from Alabama. Could you tell me where you were born and

something about your early life.

M: I was born in Huntsville, Alabama, which was a sleepy, small town of 8,000 when I lived there.

Later, it became one of the centers for the space development, so it=s not the same town that it

was. But when I was there, I liked Huntsville very much. I could walk to town, there was a

swimming pool that our family could buy into and use downtown. I could walk to the elementary

school I attended. They tell me (one of the earliest memories) [that] I grew pretty fast and ate

pretty well. So the first day I went to kindergarten, they made me a lunch, but I didn't know any

better so I ate the lunch on the way to kindergarten. When I got there, everybody else had food at

noon, I felt put upon.

P: What was life like in Huntsville at that time, and what years were you there?

M: I was there from 1916 to 1923. My father moved to Birmingham with six children. I have an older

sister, two older brothers, a younger sister, and a younger brother, there were six of us. My father

wanted to be sure we all went to college and Birmingham Southern was in Birmingham, so he

moved his practice in 1923 and left Huntsville and moved south in Birmingham.

P: That was how far away?

M: It was, in those days, a ride in an old automobile about three or four hours. I can remember being

bundled up on the back seat with a lap robe, and we had on the Eisenglass, we didn't have real









SRC -10 Morland, page 2

glass in the car windows, in any part of the car. That could be put up and you could keep

somewhat warm, but I remember it was a cold, cold drive so we must have moved in the middle of

the year.

P: How old were you when you moved to Birmingham?

M: I was about eight or nine. I went to the third grade, but since I had come from a small town, they

sent me back half a year.

P: What was your school like in Huntsville? Was it a good school? It was segregated of course,

wasn=t it?

M: Sure. Everything [was]. But we didn't think of it as being segregated particularly, it was just the

way life was.

P: It was natural as the sunset.

M: It was a traditionally built school in that it was a rectangular building with about six [to] eight

classrooms. One of the main things I remember was the fire escape. There was a metal pipe, big

one, that students could get in at the top and slide on down to the bottom. When school was

closed, we couldn't get in, but we could get inside and make our way up to the very top and slide

down, which we did often in the afternoons.

P: Was it a challenging place? Did you have any idea you had academic capabilities or inclinations

up through the third grade there in Huntsville?

M: Not really, no. I always enjoyed school, I always enjoyed studying.

P: By the time you got to Birmingham, you finished high school there?

M: I finished high school in Birmingham.

P: Did your consciousness about the way things were around you change much during that period?









SRC -10 Morland, page 3

M: Not particularly. Birmingham was much bigger and the segregation there was more obvious than it

was in Huntsville. I can remember riding a streetcar, this was before there were busses, and the

conductor was in the middle of the car and the Whites had to sit in the back of the streetcar and the

Blacks sat in the front of the streetcar. Somehow, we never felt deprived because we were in the

back and had a sandbox back there that we could play in because sometimes they had to put stuff

on the wheels, tracks, so that there would be movement.

P: Was that common throughout Alabama to have the segregation reversed on the common

conveyances and so forth?

M: All the streetcars that were there, there were streetcars in Huntsville the same way and in

Montgomery. Mobile... I think they were all the same.

P: So the Blacks were confined to the front, though. The law held that they had to sit in the front.

M: And we had to sit in the back. What they had if there was an overflow one way or the other is

petitions that they could slip into the back of the seat and on one side it said White only and on the

other side it said colored only. If there were not enough seats for the colored and there were some

in the White section, they would move these petitions down so that the colored could all have

seats.

P: What other aspects of city life did you notice at the time? You were now in your teens. Were you

becoming aware of what race relations were like and what did your family have to say about it, and

your church? Where did you go to church?

M: My mother was Episcopalian, my father was Methodist. We attended mainly the Methodist

Episcopal Church South. My mother died when I was five years old so I don=t remember her so

very well, but here was my father, a general practioner, with six children all under the age of

fourteen. How he managed, I=m not sure. Growing up in society, you learn to do what you=re









SRC -10 Morland, page 4

supposed to do. For example, there was never any question about sitting in the back of the street

car. Later when they had busses, Whites sat in the front or I usually stood because I was rather

late in getting the bus and there was never a seat available. I=ve heard the Rosa Parks story. If

Blacks were already seated, they never had to get up and give a seat to a White, never.

P: You never saw that.

M: I never experienced it. I stood because there were these petitions and if that all was filled back

there, you stayed on your side and stood up. Same was true if colored, if Blacks, if negroes had all

of their seats taken, they would stand up. If there were more in the White section, they could move

those petitions and Blacks could sit down.

P: They were temporary separators.

M: Yes they were movable.

P: The driver would move them up and so forth.

M: That=s right.

P: Whereas in Richmond, if they moved back it was sort of informal, you just had to get up so it was a

little bit different. What other aspects of life there...

M: Let me say one other thing about the bus. I went from the high school and the elementary school

to the boys YMCA. I went there every afternoon. Then I would catch a bus, street car, until busses

came. Our house was in the north side of town on Norwood Boulevard it was called. The

streetcar ended there and it had to be turned around. Then the bus did the same thing. By the

time I would get on the bus or the streetcar going to Norwood, all the seats were always taken, I

always had to stand.

P: What other aspects of life there did you take note of back then? What years were these? This was

in the 1920s?









SRC -10 Morland, page 5

M: In the 1920s.

P: Were you a budding sociologist in any way at the time?

M: No. Actually, my major in college was chemistry with a minor in math. My first job was to teach at

a boys school in Tennessee and I taught math, was director of all athletics, and in charge of

dormitories.

P: What school was that?

M: This was Webb School.

P: Where was it?

M: It was just south of Nashville in a town called Bell Buckle.

P: What year was that?

M: That was 1938 to 1939, 1939 to 1940.

P: Let=s go back to Birmingham. You played sports in high school?

M: Always at the [YMCA]. I did not play for the school team. It was a massive jam-crammed high

school. They had not built additional schools and as a matter of fact, all White high school

students had to go to the first high school year at the same school while they were building two

additional high schools.

P: When you finished high school, you went off to Birmingham Southern and you were a day student?

Did you live in a dorm?

M: Everybody was. This was the depth of the depression. I can remember going to this first year of

high school playing all the way through Birmingham and First Avenue South and First Avenue

North tend to separate one part from the other, but I can remember going on the streetcar and

seeing all those stores closed. I think Birmingham had one of the highest unemployment rates of

any city. It was a one industry town really owned by TCI, Tennessee Coal and Iron, which was part









SRC -10 Morland, page 6

of U.S. Steel. U.S. Steel kept its Pittsburgh plants open, but they shut all the Birmingham ones. I

can remember my father, he could collect very little. He would come home sometimes with a

chicken under his arm and said this is a $50 chicken.

P: Did you see evidence of poverty and homelessness and so forth in and around Birmingham or

other parts of Alabama?

M: We were all poor and we just thought that was the way life was, but I do remember people coming

to the door and asking for food. They said just a slice of bread or two, and said I=11 do anything

you want me to around the house. I=11 paint, I=11 do anything. But all we would do would be to go

back and cut off some bread and give it to them. We never turned anybody away.

P: This was the early 1930s, just after the...

M: The crash came in 1929, so it was [1930s]. I was in high school the entire four years of deep

depression, and I went to Birmingham Southern in 1934. I graduated in 1938.

P: You went to Birmingham Southern. You took a chemistry curriculum and other things. I know you

played basketball there for the college, did you?

M: I wanted to stay. I was in the middle of the year so I was happy to stay at the high school and do a

post-graduate course. I hadn=t had typing and I hadn=t had some physics courses and other

things that I wanted, but after about a month under Roosevelt, there was a program called the

Federal Emergency Relief Act, FERA. They chose about fifteen of us they thought could make it in

college, and all the teachers, everybody said go, go, go. I didn't really want to go. I would have

preferred going in the fall, but I went to Southern about six weeks late in the semester. It was six

miles at least from my house to Birmingham Southern and I took the streetcar there everyday and

then came back home, but we did not have dormitories, we had only day students.

P: It was all White at the time?









SRC -10 Morland, page 7

M: All White in terms of students and in terms of teachers and coaches, but all Black in terms of the

people who took care of the basketball court and the football field and the classrooms and the like.

P: The labor force.

M: That=s right.

P: What happened to you in college there? What kind of professors were there, what were they

saying to you? Was there any growing awareness of race relations in your experience there?

M: Not in college, no. Neither was there in high school. Southerners B I don=t know whether this

was true of you or not, but it certainly was of us B were under the illusion that separation of the

races was a good thing and that the colored were happy that way and we were happy our way.

That was the thing that justified, it was natural that you be separated. On the one hand, we were

separated, but on the other hand, some of the most intimate and the closest persons we had were

Blacks who did our cooking and who took care of the house. My sister, baby sister who had just

been born was nursed by a Black woman and that was considered proper, it was okay.

P: So if I had interviewed you back then, you would have reflected these attitudes and values at the

time?

M: Had I been asked about them I would have. It was like almost anything else. You wouldn't

question why boys dress differently from girls. You wouldn't question why boys had some names,

girls had another name. You wouldn't question why in the tallest building in Birmingham, the

Coma building, elevators were segregated going up, but coming down you could ride any one you

wanted to. There was one elevator going up that was for Blacks only, but you could ride any

elevator down you wanted to.

P: Can you recall religious life in the community? Did you have any contact with Blacks at all in other

aspects?









SRC -10 Morland, page 8

M: Not in the area of religion, no. That was quite separate. Not only separate by race, but separate in

terms of how people thought and interpreted the Bible, say. Some were fundamentalistic, my

church was never that way. We were quite open to traditional Christianity, but not...

P: What church did you go to there?

M: Again, some people have said that Sunday morning is the most segregated hour of the week, but

that is understandable because the two institutions that Blacks controlled completely were their

churches and their cemeteries. So outstanding people were ministers of Blacks and outstanding

Blacks were funeral directors. They were the top professions that Blacks held.

P: Outside of religion, there was no sports competition at all between Whites and Blacks?

M: Sometimes in the neighborhood if the neighborhoods were close, we played softball or hardball, we

played pick up basketball, but it was nothing formal.

P: What other aspects of life would you say were memorable, like employment, the job opportunities?

What did the picture look like there?

M: Growing up in the depression and graduating in 1938 there were very, very few jobs available to

college graduates. If you were going into a profession of course you would have to go from college

into a graduate school. I finished Birmingham Southern in 1938 and then had the two years at

Webb School. I made $100 a month for nine months a year and saved most of that so I could go

to graduate school.

P: So you went off after you graduated, you went off to Tennessee. Had you traveled much before

out of state? What kind of vista had you seen? I know later in life you=ve been all over the world,

but in those days...

M: My older brother was with the YMCA and he organized trips. Those trips, one of them that I went

to I remember we went in a truck that was outfitted so that the boys could sit on either side of it and









SRC -10 Morland, page 9

we could put all of our equipment in the middle of it. We went to Chicago and en route, we would

see an open field and we would drive the truck over, they would drive the truck over there, and we

would take out our equipment and set it up and sleep for the night. When we went to Chicago, we

went to the [YMCA] and opened up our equipment in the gymnasium because we couldn't afford

to go to a hotel or the like, but we always stayed at [YMCAs]. This was during the World=s Fair, I

think that was in 1933, 1934. So we went from Chicago on up into Canada again camping out all

the way. Went to Toronto and Quebec. We came down through Maine and I can remember going

and swimming off the coast of Maine. I can still feel the cold it was so piercing.

P: You were about what age at this time?

M: I was late high school and I helped with some of the trips. My brother took trips every summer and

one time he went to Cuba, I didn't get there, didn't get to go. We took turns. All of us couldn't

go at the same time. My sisters didn't go on those trips, girls didn't go.

P: While you were out on those trips, you saw behavior and people who weren=t like those you knew

in Alabama. Did this stimulate any of your thinking about comparisons between cultures or

anything like that?

M: Speech patters were different. I can remember going into a five and ten cent store at the time and

I asked for school supplies and they didn't know what I was talking about so I finally learned to

ask for schoo/supplies and then I made it all right. I noticed those kinds of differences.

Southerners were teased because of their pronunciation and slow way of talking that many of us

grow up with.

P: But this did not alert you in any way to the realities of segregation? That segregation can be

unnatural in other places?

M: Again, I saw no colored in the YMCAs that I went into.









SRC -10 Morland, page 10

P: So they were segregated even in the North at the time.

M: They had separate institutions.

P: Separate YMCAs.

M: Yeah, a separate life. Life was a little more separate in the North than it was in the South.

P: Yes, because residences were closer together in the southern neighborhoods sometimes.

M: In the southern neighborhoods, but also you had Blacks who came into Whites homes and they

were there as really part of the family in many ways, although they always knew their place and we

knew our place.

P: Were there any limits on the behavior set on their labor. Not so much in your home, but maybe

other homes. For example, use of dishes or tolerance of taking things from the household. Did

you ever have any occasion to observe that kind of thing.

M: No, we never had anything like that. I guess sometimes they took food and we thought that would

be alright.

P: In some places, as you know, dishes had to be separated among...

M: Oh that, no, we didn't see that.

P: Was it kind of a genteel society there among the middle classes? How would you describe their

approach to race [relations]?

M: I=m not sure it would be called genteel. We were sort of middle income, on the lower end of the

income scale, but we never felt B I=m thinking of Huntsville and I=m thinking of initially being in

Birmingham. We did not know where the wealthy people were or how they lived. That was pretty

much separate.

P: So there were class distinctions as well.









SRC -10 Morland, page 11

M: Certainly there were basic income distinctions and the limited incomes would be reflected in having

homes that were more luxurious. I always had a paper route and I went to some homes that were

pretty gorgeous I remember.

P: After graduating from college, you went off to Tennessee. What did you find there in your new job?

You spent two years there.

M: I had to learn a great many sports activities that I never had to deal with before. Basketball was my

major field and touch football and tackle as well. But I had to learn how to throw a discus. I went

out behind the gym when I didn't have a class at Webb school and put my book down with it=s

illustrations and then would pick up the discus and throw it. I did the same thing with the javelin.

As I look back on it, that was very, very dangerous to have that javelin throw. It=s a wonder we

didn't hurt somebody in the process.

P: How about in the classroom and with your students and even outside the classroom in the

community and with your students. Did you have any major discoveries?

M: Our classrooms at Webb School were all one room arrangements with a pot-bellied stove in the

middle.

P: Was this a private school?

M: It was a private school, yes.

P: The students, were they advantaged?

M: Mostly somewhat advantaged, they would have to be to go there.

P: Was this a marked time at all in your growth and development? Were you still kind of cruising as

you had been in high school and college with discoveries about race relations.

M: I had responsibilities. Our students would sometimes try to slip off. As a matter of fact, one of

them was caught because in Murfreesboro, Tennessee which wasn=t so very away had a picture









SRC -10 Morland, page 12

on the front page of a dance and he was on the front page when he was supposed to be in

dormitory. Mr. Webb called me in and told me that I had to be stricter. What he did was to get the

window, he slipped out the window and friends picked him up and drove him to Murfreesboro.

P: So it was a residential school and you had dorm responsibilities.

M: I had that responsibility. Checking all the rooms to be sure they were neat, that they didn't have

bootleg liquor or something hidden.

P: Bootleg liquor was available in the area?

M: Bootleg liquor was, yes.

P: Prohibition was over by this time, is that right?

M: Yes.

P: Did you find you liked teaching then? Did that come upon you?

M: I liked teaching very, very much.

P: Did you discover that there?

M: Being in the [YMCA] and going to [YMCA] camp every summer, you had to do a lot of teaching in

terms of some of the youngsters did not know how to swim. I was lifeguard and also the one that

would put them through the various phases to become lifeguards. In a way, you were teaching and

the youngsters had to learn to live with others in pretty close quarters, and sometimes you had to

take them aside and tell them some of the things they were doing were obnoxious or something

and they just had to quit it. It was, I guess, disciplinary more than anything else at camp, but in a

way it was teaching and [I] always felt a triumph if a child could not swim and didn't learn to swim.

A child couldn't dive at all and then learn to do all kinds of dives off the diving board, which I

would demonstrate to them at the time.

P: Did you get any inkling of where you were headed by being there?









SRC -10 Morland, page 13

M: Not really. I knew I wanted to go to graduate school and I knew it would be very hard to afford to

go.

P: Where was your love affair with chemistry at this point?

M: The federal emergency relief act, which paid all my tuition, $200 a semester, I was assigned to the

chemistry lab to clean things up. I took chemistry every year I was there and I became a student

assistant, as well as basketball and working at the YMCA over the weekend.

P: You kind of fell into chemistry?

M: Yes.

P: It wasn=t a love affair.

M: Well, I liked chemistry, it was very neat. You could get clear cut answers and you could work in the

lab and you could make things happen. I was grounded in the scientific method of being sure that

you were controlling variables, that you had substances that were not mixed up with other

substances. You learned how to discover what was in a sample of something, you had a process

that you went through. I like all that. Quantitative and qualitative we called it in those days, I think

they have different names for them now.

P: What happened to you after you left Webb? This was about what year?

M: That was 1940. I went from there to... I had friends who had gone to Yale Divinity School so I

applied to Yale Divinity School and went up, particularly with a very close friend who had graduated

from Birmingham Southern when I had.

P: This divinity school interest, where did this come from? I heard you say you kind of fell into

chemistry and there was no particular keen interest in ethics or religious...

M: The student Christian movement was very active and the [YMCA] was very active at Birmingham

Southern.









SRC -10 Morland, page 14

P: So this [YMCA] was very influential in nurturing...

M: Very influential because for the first time when I would go to these conventions or meetings outside

of the South, I would meet highly educated, highly interesting and interested Blacks for the first

time. The only Blacks I had ever known were those who were in the servant category, there was

no other chance to meet [Blacks]. But the student Christian movement was very, very influential.

Then, I could see the system and what it was doing to Whites as well as the Blacks. It was really

standing in the way of full development, it was standing in the way of living up to our ideals of

equality of opportunity, equality of treatment, so I learned from the Blacks who were at these

meetings. I got an entirely different view from what I=d had just growing up.

P: Do you recall the first meeting you had this little break through?

M: It was when we went from Birmingham Southern, all White, up to Miami University in Oxford, Ohio,

and I remember the meal we had together, that was unusual. As a matter of fact, when two, a

Black and White became very friendly, they were a little older than we students, the Whites said

you know, when I first sat down next to you to eat my meal, I just about threw up it was so strange.

The Black said same thing happened to me, I just about threw up sitting next to you.

P: Who said this?

M: I think it was one of the directors or one of the teachers of the institute that we were attending. [It

was] about a week long, it was during Christmas break or during Spring break that we went to

these institutes.

P: Did you take these experiences home and ponder it a bit? Did it stir things in you that had to do

with your interest in going to seminary?

M: It certainly had something to do with seminary because the seminary was totally integrated. We

had Black instructors as well as White.









SRC -10 Morland, page 15

P: This was at Yale?

M: Yale University Divinity School.

P: You were how old when you left for Yale?

M: About twenty-two I think. I believe that was it, about that.

P: You had good grades and a good academic record so it was not a difficult...

M: I was Phi Beta Kappa.

P: That=s right.

M: I made the Dean=s List every year I was at Southern. It was hard to do because to play

basketball, and Birmingham Southern at that time didn't even have it=s own basketball court, we

had to go down to the Birmingham athletic club which was downtown. We had three hours of solid

running developing, building wind, so I was exhausted and it was very hard to go home and study

and then go back to school and be ready for those chemistry that I was an assistant in, be ready

with my own classes.

P: When you showed up at Yale Divinity School, did you know anybody there? Were you familiar with

anybody?

M: The person I went up with, and we knew each other in Birmingham and were still friends, I was

the best man in his wedding and he was an attendant in my wedding.

P: His name is...

M: Clark Whitehead.

P: And you still keep up with [him]?

M: Yes. Not as closely as we should. He went into the ministry. I was not interested in going into the

ministry. I was not interested in religious work as such. I was interested more in the history,

comparative studies of religions, philosophy of religion, psychology of religion. It was just a new









SRC -10 Morland, page 16

opening for me because chemistry is rather narrowly focused, but at Yale, I studied under people

like Richard Neiber who was Reinhold Neiber=s brother and who was an absolutely superb

teacher. The teach historian was world renown, again a superb lecturer and teacher. I just gained

enormously in those three years.

P: Who was he, the church historian that you admired?

M: Roland Bainton, that's who it was. Just before he died, he appeared on television. He was

asking questions. He said, you=ve really got two questions there, I=11 take the second one first.

So he analyzed and I wrote him a note and I said this is just like classroom, I said I was just

delighted to hear you. He wrote back, and we had that kind of personal relationship. I got to know

Dean Luther Allen Wigel. Of course, I got to know him better when I went out to China from Yale

University., but Wigel was one of my teachers as well as one of my counselors. He was dean of

divinity school. Richard Neiber was probably the strongest and the best teacher that I had.

Reinhold was the one that was very well known, but I thought... I got to meet and know Reinhold

and listen to him at Patel Chapel at Yale from time to time.

P: You did meet Rienhold Neiber?

M: Oh yes, I met him. As a matter of fact, I was in the wedding of a friend who=s service was held at

Riverside Church at the union in New York City. The reception was in Reinhold Neiber=s

apartment.

P: This was a very ecumenical school, was it not?

M: Very ecumenical, but it had a preponderance of southern students it seemed.

P: Why would that be?

M: For those who were not inclined toward going to their denominational school in their area, but who

wanted to get out of the South and see another part of the world, that was attractive.









SRC -10 Morland, page 17

P: So these were folks who had sort of ethical longings and were searching and so forth?

M: I think so. They tended to be ecumenical, they were not narrowly focused at all.

P: Who were some of the other professors that you recall that were important or well known at the

time?

M: Robert Caloon was in the philosophy of religion. Richard Neiber was in Christian ethics, and

Liston Pope was in social ethics. It was in social ethics that I began to get interested in looking at

society and at groups, human groups, and its roles and statuses and understanding more of the

social structure of society.

P: So here=s where you got the first hint of a social science interest.

M: Exactly.

P: What lessons did you take away from Yale Divinity School? What associations that meant so

much to you later on?

M: I was in the process of graduating from divinity school when one of my favorite professors,

Kenneth Scott Larette asked me Ken, would you liked to go to China? I jumped at the

opportunity because a lot of my colleagues were being chaplains and I didn't want to be a

chaplain. I have great admiration and I had a call from my older brother last night. He=s sending

me a book in which the chaplains gave up their life preservers and they went down and died. I

think they were four denominations or four different faiths, I=m not sure who they were.

P: Was this a battle?

M: It was WWII. The ship was sunk and they had life preservers, but there were some who couldn't

swim and who were sinking and so they gave them up and they held hands, in the slush and wash

they were lost.

P: WWII was upon us at that time when you were in divinity [school]?









SRC -10 Morland, page 18

M: 1943 was when I finished, yes. We were plunged into it. I had a draft status, every male had a

draft assignment. You were 1A, in my case I have a bad heart...

P: Even at that time?

M: Yeah. So the army wasn=t too keen about taking me so I was given a lower status from say 1A. I

can remember working in New Haven at the Railway Express, worked from 11:00p.m. to 7:00a.m.

Didn=t feel very active the next day, but I made some money that way. We moved things from

freight car to freight car. This was before UPS or Federal [Express], any of these organizations.

The Railway Express was the way to send packages, was the way to send almost everything.

P: In this you were sending things to the soldiers and sailors abroad, or were you doing this for

income?

M: I was doing this for Railway Express, I was their employee.

P: So it was for income.

M: I would load that car and I learned how to pick things up and how to... I was told the first [day], he

said buddy, you have to break your back that way, let me show you how to do it.

P: You learned your first lesson of ergonomics.

M: That=s right.

P: You did need to work while you were in divinity school?

M: Yes.

P: Did you work while you were in college as well?

M: I worked as a lab assistant throughout college, and I worked at the YMCA over the weekend in

order to get some funds.

P: You got your first opportunity to go to China and this was a very exciting prospect, wasn=t it?









SRC -10 Morland, page 19

M: To me it was very, very exciting because I knew I didn't want to do the other things that Yale

divinity school graduates were doing. I had the classification that would have permitted me to [End

of Tape 1, side A] have gone for a doctorate at Yale in philosophy of religion or in comparative

religion, but there the war was going on and I wanted to be involved in it in some way.

P: What happened next? How did you get to China and what happened?

M: Two of us were asked, Kenneth Scott Larette asked the two of us...

P: The other one was?

M: ...Yale had done with the Yale School in China called Ya Li. Every year they would send out two

graduates to teach English by what we call the direct method. The teacher of English would know

no Chinese and the Chinese coming in would know no English. You had to learn how to teach and

how to speak so that it was possible for these youngsters to understand what was going on. I

chose to go to China, I had to get permission of the draft board, I had to get permission of the state

department, and I had to find someway to get there because you couldn't go through Europe, you

couldn't go through the Pacific with the Japanese and the American fleets fighting each other.

P: The political situation there was the nationalist Chinese were the reigning regime at the time?

M: Oh yes. Chiang Kai-shek was the president. He had taken the place, he had been designated by

Sun Yat-sen who had led the revolution of 1911, 1912 that moved China from having an inherited

leadership of total control of the population.

P: Were the Japanese in parts of China that you were going to?

M: When I went, of course Pearl Harbor had happened.

P: What year was this?

M: December 7, 1941.

P: No, I mean...









SRC -10 Morland, page 20

M: Everybody of my generation knows when Roosevelt said this day will live in infamy, we are now at

war with the Japanese. I knew that at my age that all of us would have our lives turned around. I

think everybody knew exactly... I knew exactly where I was at the time, exactly the words that I

heard.

P: You were in China at the time?

M: No.

P: That=s what I was asking.

M: I was in New Haven.

P: Your trip to China was in what year, this first trip?

M: I left New Haven in June of 1943 and took crowded trains to New Orleans, stayed waiting in line to

take a plane where the next stop was in Merida, Mexico and from there to Guatemala and then to

Panama. At Panama, I was off-loaded because I was traveling without any... I wasn=t in the

military, I wasn=t in business or the like. I was just a freelance in the sense.

P: You were alone?

M: No, one other person.

P: Oh, the other student, yes.

M: The one in this picture that I showed you, he=s in his Chinese gown. He and I stay in touch. He

has just had loss of sight completely, he=s totally blind. He has macular degeneration.

P: His name?

M: Ross Dickson.

P: So you were in Panama and now you had to get to China and they wouldn't let you on the troop

ships. Where did you go from there?









SRC -10 Morland, page 21

M: We had a choice. There was a freighter going through the Panama Canal on its way to Australia,

but how would you get from Australia to China was the big problem. The other alternative, we

learned that there were ships occasionally that sailed from Buenos Aires to Cape Town across the

South Atlantic. What the two of us had to do, we waited two weeks in Panama going to the airport,

we had to check in everyday and see where we were and how close we were to going. Then,

getting on the plane, flying down to Lima, Peru. Went to Columbia, Guayaquille, and then on

down to Lima, Peru. Again, off-loaded.

P: You had to be mindful of transportation that stayed out of war zones, didn't you.

M: Exactly.

P: So that was part of the trick.

M: It was part of it and yet we were subject to being attacked, particularly in the South Atlantic. The

German subs were sinking Argentine ships. We were going on an Argentine ship. Finally got out

of Lima, had to fly over the Andes in an un-pressurized plane, about 25,000 feet. On that plane,

which of course was propeller, there was no jet at that time, they said when you feel like you=re

going to throw up because of the difference in pressure, non-pressurized, there was a little tube

that we could take and sip on it, it was oxygen. They said don=t use too much because you don=t

have very much, but do that and you won=t get sick. We landed finally up in La Paz in Bolivia after

leaving Lima. We were about 14,000 feet there, Lake Titicaca, and I wanted very much to go and

see the city that had been hidden from the Spanish, the name of it slips me right now, but we

didn't have a chance to do that. [We] flew on down to Buenos Aires and there we had to wait

three weeks going everyday to the ship office to say are you going to sail? They said shhh, not

yet. They did not want anybody to know that they were going because from time to time, the Nazis

would sink those ships, although Argentina was neutral. I can remember going to movies in









SRC -10 Morland, page 22

Buenos Aires and they would say were going to show the news, but we don=t want you to cheer

or we don=t want you to boo because remember were neutral so you must not do that. That=s

part of the way we passed our time. I liked Buenos Aires, it was a beautiful city, and they had what

they called a confeteria. In the late afternoon they had all kinds of good things to eat, pies and

cakes and other things. They ate dinner about 10:00p.m. at night.

P: Now you have spent weeks in the Western hemisphere and you=re headed for China. How did

you get across the Atlantic?

M: On the Jose Menendez. The Jose Menendez, we went and they said were going tonight, were

going to slip out at midnight so be down at the dock. We couldn't take much. We could wear

whatever we wanted to, but we couldn't take much. What we did, we did that on the plane too, I

wore even in panama when I had to weigh in the for the plane, I wore winter underwear, three pairs

of slacks, four sweaters, and a kind of Mackinaw to keep the rain off, and had belts around inside

and hung things on them. I weighed 250 pounds when I got onboard and then when I started

taking things off, I can remember the eyes of the attendants really popped when they saw what we

had. We couldn't get anything in China, we knew that.

P: Where=d this ship go? Was this a freighter?

M: No, it was a passenger ship, 4,000 tons. It bobbed all over the South Atlantic, it was rough. It was

the middle of the winter, it was in July-August by then. We went to Cape Town. I can remember

approach that beautiful harbor of Cape Town just as the sun was coming up. We enjoyed the trip

on the second class. They allowed five of us to travel second class. We had to argue because we

didn't have any money. The way Yale in China outfitted us was to give us letters of credit and you

could take a letter of credit to the bank, and the bank could deduct whatever money we had to

have because we had to change money each time we went into a different city.









SRC -10 Morland, page 23

P: Did you stay in Cape Town for any length of time?

M: About ten days, and then took a freighter around to Durban.

P: While you were in South Africa, did you have occasion to observe its apartheid and other

conditions there?

M: Not really. It was so separate that we just didn't pay attention to it. The residences I=m sure

were all different. What we did, our ship waited there for awhile so we would go off on shore and

then come back, we=d stay on the ship. We did that until that had to go back to Buenos Aires.

We were on that ship when one of the passengers we got to know said this is my third time to try to

get across, the other two ships were sunk by submarines.

P: And he survived?

M: He survived and he was anaesthetized with scotch whiskey to make it this next time. It was such a

harrowing experience. The second time the ship was blown up, he had happened to go up on the

deck, it was a little hot down below, and he was at one end and it was the other end that was blown

up. He went into the water, but he was able to get a life preserver. Then the submarine came up

near him and found out what language he spoke and they asked what ship did we just sink? He

gave them the name of it and they plunged on down and went on, left him. They didn't have any

room to take him in the sub, but another ship came along going back to Buenos Aires [and] picked

him up.

P: From Durban then, how did you get further east?

M: Durban was about a two week wait. Again, checking to find out, we were able to get passage on a

British troop convoy. There were troop ships and surrounded by the troop ships were destroyers

protecting it, and we did a zig-zag course across, the Indian Ocean to Bombay. That was a three-

week trip. The ship was much, much bigger, but we were jam crammed in there with the British









SRC -10 Morland, page 24

who were going in to India to help stop the Japanese. They just had a few civilian seats. It landed

in Bombay and for the first time I realized the British had precedence over us. They go to go

through the passport thing first because it was a British colony at the time, India was.

P: Did you get to see much of India at that point? This is in the middle of WWII?

M: We got to stay with missionaries, we couldn't afford to stay in any kind of hotel. They didn't have

very much. They took us around. They took us, for example, to what they call the Towers of

Silence. The Parsees Indians did not want to pollute the earth by putting the deceased in the

earth. They didn't want to pollute it by putting them in water, drowning them or something. So

they put them on big slabs of concrete that it was hard to get up to see, and the buzzards and the

others would pick the bones clean and then the rain would wash the remains down. That was a

part of India that they don=t allow foreigners to see that anymore, but we were able to go to that.

P: Did you see any evidence of the cast system at the time? Now you had your social science

inclinations moving. Was this in anyway an education about social stratification in India in this trip?

M: Not really. The casts were so separate or the way of life was so foreign that we lived with British

American missionaries and they could tell us about it, but I didn't see it very much.

P: Was it on peoples minds at the time?

M: Not so much, no. Again, it was like segregation in this country. It was the way things were. The

people of India had accepted the process of being reborn, reincarnation. If you fulfilled your cast

obligations to the full, then you would get a higher position after you died and your soul was

implanted somewhere else. When Margaret and I were coming back from Hong Kong once, we

usually went around the world and we did that four times, we landed at the Bombay airport. We

were going to stay with students of mine out of Macon, they urged us to come. They took good









SRC -10 Morland, page 25

care of us. But this was long after India had become a separate country from Pakistan as a matter

of fact.

P: So you=re in India now. We still have a couple more legs of the trip to go to get to China.

M: That=s right, by train. The Indian trains were crowded, but they had compartments and we

stopped at New Delhi and saw the Taj Mahal. [We] got back on the train, went to Benaris where

people would go into the Gangees and wash themselves and all that sort of thing. It looked awfully

filthy to me, but I =m sure it was sacred water to them, and then to Calcutta. To get over the

southern Himalayas into China was very, very difficult. The Chinese national airlines were just

filled each time. Three weeks in Calcutta waiting for a plane. There, we were in the midst of the

Bengali famine, in the midst of a cholera epidemic. People were just dying on the streets and the

only thing we could do [that] would make a little contribution to the famine relief, India was not able

to get food to Calcutta and the people who were sick were undernourished as well as having

cholera and not having cholera shots.

P: Were they isolated because of the war conditions?

M: It was partially the war condition. It was just a matter of poor transportation generally. Finally we

were told the plane was leaving. We were at some kind of hotel B I=m not sure whether we were

with missionaries or not, B but again we could take only about sixteen pounds of luggage, thirty-

two kilos I think, I=m not sure how much thirty-two is, but anyhow you could wear whatever you

wanted to. There we were in hot Calcutta with people just barely having on anything at all, fanning

themselves, and we came along the street with all of these sweaters and jackets and other things

on. I became quite ill, I was over-heated, but we weighed in, and as soon as we weighed in we

could take these things off.

P: Your purpose for carrying all these clothes is because you were headed for a colder climate right?









SRC -10 Morland, page 26

M: We were headed for colder climate and we were headed for a country where all of its

manufacturing centers had been cut off. The Japanese had taken the most populous part of China

and what we were faced with was living really in the peasant, rural area, although Changsha itself

was rather large, it was occupied by the Japanese by the time we got there so we had to go up into

the mountains. We again had un-pressurized cabins, in the airlines we learned to deal with that.

We flew over the southern Himalayas, over ice covered mountains, landed in Quin-ning and I can

remember missionaries putting up with us and putting us up saying I don=t think there=s anyway

to get to this rural town of Yen-ning where the school was refugeeing. We, though, were finally

able to hitch a ride with a British convoy of trucks and they were going to Chongqing, let us off at a

place called Huian, and the only place in Huian, the only way we could get to this town was by a

charcoal running bus. They had no gasoline.

P: Again because of the war shortages.

M: Because of war time, yes. Whatever gasoline there was was used by the army vehicles. The

civilians just had nothing.

P: You landed where and how far did you have to go?

M: About a four day trip on this charcoal bus which would not go very fast. It went downhill real fast,

but we were in quite hilly country. We would stay at Chinese inns, dirt floor, chickens, pigs, and the

like picking up any food that would fall from the table.

P: What provinces did you pass through on your way?

M: Guizhou, which Guiyang is the capital of, and one other. Then Hunan, we went into northern

Hunan is where the school was, I can show you on the map in a minute. But we stayed in these

horrible, horrible inns to us, and there was almost no partitioning between the rooms, and we were

pretty tall and could see over into the next room. One thing we learned to do, we were told do, was









SRC -10 Morland, page 27

to take an oil cloth, a smelly oil cloth, put it over the bed, and then get your own sleeping bag

that'ss what we carried), and the bugs would not get on the oil cloth. So that kept us off. But we

also had to sleep under mosquito netting because there was a great deal of malaria, great deal of

other kinds of illnesses that could be transported by mosquitoes and bugs of all kinds.

P: Your traveling companion and colleague, what was his name?

M: Ross Dickson.

P: When you finally arrived, this was a school that was founded and supported by Yale?

M: By the Yale China Association. This was a separate corporation. Yale provided the name and the

personnel and the headquarters, and also appeals to alumni who wish to contribute, they could do

so.

P: Was it designed to promote cultural relations between China and the United States? What was its

purpose?

M: The purpose was to increase understanding of China on the part of Americans and to get as many

Chinese as possible into Yale University so that they could learn something about the American

way of life.

P: Had it been a pretty successful program, had it flourished pretty much in years prior to that?

M: Yes. It=s buildings though... It had a beautiful campus in Changsha which was the provincial

capital of Hunan. They were all burned in two big conflagrations of the entire city.

P: Based on bombing?

M: They were not bombed so much as they were just set on fire by the Chinese who thought the

Japanese were coming in and they didn't want them to take over a whole city that would support

them. They had gotten the word mixed up, the Japanese had not gotten to just the outskirts, they

were still some distance away and Chiang Kai-shek had the general who said burn everything. He









SRC -10 Morland, page 28

had him executed. Later, the Japanese themselves burned the city when they were having to

retreat.

P: You got to see that initial campus? You were there early enough to see?

M: No. We could not go to Changsha because the Japanese were there. We went by a charcoal

burning bus up to the southern part of the Yen River, and then had to take a ferryboat which was

pulled by and over ward by, it was just kind of an open boat, to the other side where the town of

Yen-ning was. Yen-ning was one street and it was a sort of precipitous incline. The street was

about two miles long an the school, Ya Li, had been set up at the western end of the town, but on a

very slippery slope. In these essays that my students are writing about their war time experiences

at Ya Li, they tell about that very difficult time we had going up those hills and down the hills in

makeshift classrooms, in cold weather. My students wore gloves with just these two fingers taken

out so they could write. They all wore hats and stuff over their ears. We wore hats and tried to

write on the blackboard, it was very difficult. Of course, we have snow up in the mountains. It took

me, by the way, four months and one week and almost 25,000 miles to go from New Haven to this

place up in Yen-ning. We didn't get there until November.

P: You had left New Haven in when?

M: Later part of June. July, August, September, October.

P: How long were you there?

M: Three years.

P: You stayed three years. Did you visit home at any time?

M: Visit Chinese homes?

P: Visit your own home. Did you come back to the states?

M: There was no way to get back, couldn't possibly get back.









SRC -10 Morland, page 29

P: So you were there until about 1946?

M: In the fall of 1945, the Japanese surrendered. Interestingly, we went on our own, but I took a trip to

Mount O=mei, which is one of the sacred Buddhist mountains in western China. I had to go to

Chongqing, I had to go by charcoal bus, and then take a river boat. Chongqing was a war time

capital, a very disorganized city. Then to get from Chongqing up to Chengdu, which was in central

Sichuan, we were in the Sichuan province, and then take a bus down to a river, and then take the

river to O=mei shan, Mount O=mei, it was a five day trip walking to the top of it. Sleeping in

Buddhist temples in the interim and the Buddhist monks would charge us, but feed us. We

couldn't have any eggs, we couldn't have any meat, we just had to be vegetarians because the

Buddhists were. I was on top of Mount O=mei when word came that the Japanese surrendered.

We got up so high that we could look down and if the sun were in the right place, we could see

Buddhist Halo. We were about 12,000 [to] 13,000 feet with almost a precipitous straight down

drop.

P: So you were there for three solid years without leaving.

M: Yes. Except for the trips that, well about the only place you could go would be Chongqing and the

place I went to.

P: Tell us about your experience there and friends you met and experiences you had.



M: We were coached by the person who=s place we were taking, Dwight Roo. I took over his class.

They had been expecting us in September and here it was November. They had a very hard time

getting back to the states, but they had to kind of retrace our way of going. I can remember when

we were walking in the one street of this town which had become a kind of refugee center in a way,

and walking to the senior school. The middle school is grade six through twelve. Six years of









SRC -10 Morland, page 30

English were required of every student. One of the reasons, I forgot to tell you this, the draft board

gave us an okay was the American forces desperately needed Chinese who could understand

when Americans spoke English, and in turn could speak so that they American could understand

them. So the graduates of Ya Li Middle School, having had six years of Americans teaching them

by the direct method, they had to listen and understand English, and they had to respond so that

we could understand them. This was one of the reasons we were permitted to go to China. I can

remember so well adjusting and going into a classroom of seventy boys in the sixth grade who

knew no English and here I was knowing no Chinese or a few phrases if the Chinese couldn't

understand, but Americans could (Chinese phrases), but we started with the four objects: a box, a

book, a pen, and a pencil. We would hold the box up and we would say this is a box. Is it a book?

No, this is a book. Is it a pen? No, this is a pen. Then we began to hold things up ourselves and

say what is it? And the chorus would come back, it=s a book or it=s a box. Starting with those

words, we built vocabulary and we had some kinds of text books made of very cheap paper. We

didn't have very good material. But reading these essays, the students say they came in and

these foreigners were talking in a way they couldn't understand, and so they were just waiting for

Chinese to be spoken. They finally decided they were going to speak any Chinese, they don=t

know any Chinese, so they were forced to speak by what is called the direct method.

P: Tell us about this project that you are now doing, now in 2002. Does this include essays by

students from back in those years? The war years?

M: Yes. Margaret, my wife and I, went to the Far East, first in Hong Kong where our daughter was

living, her husband was with the state department and she was editor of an art journal called

Orientations. She had her doctorate in art of the Far East, so it was a very natural step for her.

We stayed with them two weeks. We were planning to take a hovercraft to a place called









SRC -10 Morland, page 31

Shenzhen, that is the Chinese city which was not so very far from Hong Kong. We were going to

meet a British [man], Peter Thompson, with whom I had taught in Ya Li. Peter was the only non-

American who had ever taught English there. I was the only non-undergraduate of Yale who ever

got that role. Peter was having a real hard time with his heart, though, and I have an enormous

amount of communication from him. He would write long detailed letters and I so want to take a

look at them. Peter died right before were to go up to Shenzhen, and we told Carol we might as

well just get on the train here and go up to Shenzhen, then change and go to Guangzhou (this is

Canton) and we could fly from there to Changsha. She said mom and daddy don=t you go into

China now. The train stations are filled with peasants who have been forced off the farm because

of more efficient farming and who have no work, no income, and they would rob anybody they

could.

P: So this I under the communist regime by this time?

M: By this time, yes, definitely was under community regime. That=s a big problem for them now. In

those cities they have maybe 20 million peasants in the big cities like Canton or Shanghai or

Beijing and they stay mainly in these cavernous railway stations.

P: This project, you=ve tried to assemble some essays and poems and so forth from your [students].

M: We went to Changsha and we flew there because our daughter told us don=t you go into there. At

your age, you would be easy targets for these peasants who are just looking for somebody with

money. They had had four or five strong husky friends who had gone to Canton, gotten out of their

train surrounded by thugs with knives and they had everything taken.

P: What year was this?

M: 1996.

P: Tell us about the students.









SRC -10 Morland, page 32

M: We flew into Changsha two days before the ninetieth anniversary of the founding of Ya Li, it was

founded in 1906 so this was the ninetieth anniversary. I wrote to my students ahead of time and I

said you all get together because we want to talk to you about a project, particularly writing up your

lives as they were during the time we were refugeeing in Yen-Ning. So we got there early and

they were most coridal. They met the plane, they took us in the Ya Li station wagon to our hotel,

Huatian: Ahua@ is flower, Atian@ is heavenly. It=s the same as Tiananmen square where they

had that crushing of the demonstrators. We stayed in the beautiful flowered hotel. [End of Tape 1,

side B]

P: We=re at the beginning of the tape. This is tape two. This is Ed Peeples with Ken Morland.

We=re having a conversation about events and things that happened to him in his life and

yesterday, we were talking about you in China during WWII and you were at the Yale School with

students. You were to spend three years there. You have now begun a project which tries to

remember some of those years with your students, would you tell us about that?

M: The Yale China Association was begun in 1901. The school at which I taught began its operation

in 1906, so my wife and I went out to celebrate the ninetieth anniversary of the founding of Ya Li as

Yale is called in Chinese. We met two days before the actual celebration and I talked to the

students about writing down what they remembered of their experience of having to refugee in very

difficult circumstances; makeshift buildings on the side of a steep mountain slope up in the

mountains where we had snow in the winter time without heat, without running water, without

electricity. They were faced with great obstacles, yet they turned out to be among the finest

students I ever taught. I felt that all the world needed to hear what these students had to say

having to study and to learn under such complex, difficult, demanding circumstances. So I invited

them, as many as would, to write essays of what they recalled during the days of refugeeing up in









SRC -10 Morland, page 33

the Hunan mountains. We were seventy miles from the front line of Japanese forces. We were

constantly under the threat of their moving on up the river, so we had selected another site,

actually had purchased boats, had some equipment, some of the library equipment on the boat,

and we were ready to leave this town any time it was required.

P: Did you hear explosions and evidence of war, and did you ever leave the encampment to go places

where there was the war zone?

M: No. None of us would dare venture into the area where there was the war zone. The Americans

built an air field to the south and to the west of us. The Japanese began to bomb it. They would fly

over Yen-Ning, the town we were refugeeing in, and if they had any bombs left over or if they

couldn't find the American base, they would drop their bombs on Yen-Ning. The terrible bombing

came in 1939 and almost wiped out the city. From then on, there were pinpricks of bombing. We

had bombing shelters so we could go when the siren would sound, and we would just gather our

things up and run into the nearest of these shelters.

P: What kind of education environment was that? I suppose this had great impact on some of these

students= character and so forth and it may be reflected in your essays, is that true?

M: I think it=s reflected in the essays. It=s also reflected in the desire of the Chinese to get an

education. The Yale School was held in highest regard and it was difficult to get into the school.

We had places for only 500 students. It also charged tuition although most of the students worked

their way through by being in the dining halls or helping the professors with their work or doing duty

of keeping the campus clean and the rooms tidy.

P: You lived on the campus there?

M: We all lived on the campus. There was really no other place to live.









SRC -10 Morland, page 34

P: The students began to learn to speak English and I assume the whole curriculum was mostly in

English?

M: No, the curriculum was primarily in Chinese, but they learned to speak English. They had to have

six years of it and they had to learn it in the way all of us learn to speak our native language. We

do it by hearing words spoken and then we imitate these words and we are able to respond so that

foreigners can understand what is being said.

P: You are currently editing these essays. About how many are there?

M: There are thirty essays. They [are] mostly about the students= experiences themselves. There=s

also a section on the faculty and the administrators that they remember.

P: Do you recall a happy story or a tale that occurred there with the student or what have you that

might be of interest? That shows the effect of the school and/or the effect on the teachers.

M: There were some amusing things that happened.

P: You want to remind us of one?

M: I was working on my Chinese, but being one of two English teachers, being one of two persons

who spoke English as his native tongue, the students came to have us go down to the village with

them and to interpret. They like to listen to us and to ask us what we have said in English and then

to tell the shopkeepers. At one point, I said let me try to talk to the shopkeeper. They said all right.

I pointed to certain things that I was interested in...

P: To purchase?

M: Yes, at the shops, and ask them how much it was. The shopkeeper smiled and nodded and talked

to one another, but I obviously was not getting through. I turned to the students and said what are

they saying? And they rather sheepishly said they are saying to one another this foreigners

language sounds a little like Chinese doesn't it?









SRC -10 Morland, page 35

P: You had lots of contacts with the students and so forth, and after you left you kept up with some of

them and the tales they would tell and the stories you were to learn about their fate. Were there

some sad stories that you can recall?

M: I left China in 1946. I came back on LST down the Yang Tse River, a southern day trip. [I] was

able to get on an American troop ship returning to the states, went to San Francisco, and then took

the train across the USA to New Haven to take up my new duties as executive secretary of the

Yale China Association. I continued writing to some of my favorite students and the ones who

wanted to communicate, but once the People=s Republic of China was established by the

communists, I was asked by the students please don=t write us anymore. If you do, any letter we

get from America gets us into trouble. So there was a gap of twenty-five or more years that we

heard nothing from the students, nothing about them.

P: Even though you had been friends and had communicated prior to this ban.

M: Correct. We were just asked don=t write. But once Mao Zedong passed on, Deng Xiao-ping

gained control. This was around 1977, 1978, 1979. Then I began hearing from the students again.



P: Through their own initiative?

M: On their own initiative. They found out where their former American teachers were and some of

them came to this country, and whenever they came, I always invited them to stay here with us and

to speak to my classes in anthropology on what things were like in China, what the family situation

was, and what kind of education they had. I was amazed at how well they did with their English.

They told me that under the communist regime initially, they were not allowed to speak English.

They had to learn Russian instead of English. Once Deng Xiao-ping broke that barrier with

American, then they were able to come to this country. When I would ask them I want you to









SRC -10 Morland, page 36

speak to my anthropology class, and they said we have not used our English for twenty-five years,

so were not sure if we can do it. But they all did it, they spoke clearly, the students were

extremely interested, they had not seen or heard anybody from China during their life time. This

was at Randolph-Macon Women=s College. They asked questions which were understood by the

speaker, and in turn the speaker would elaborate and they communicated very, very well. The

education that they got in these six years of English teach by the direct method took well, and they

remembered it well and still had clear enough speech without too heavy an accent that Americans

could understand them.

P: This school was a secondary school?

M: Yes. It=s the equivalent of our grade six through twelve. These six years it was called a middle

school. The first was the elementary, then the middle, then there was the college education. But

this would be the equivalent of our sixth through twelfth grades.

P: You showed me a picture of a man in a book. There was a sad tale associated with this man.

Wasn=t he one of your favorite students?

M: He was actually a colleague.

P: At the school?

M: In the city.

P: Oh in the city, he was not associated with the school.

M: Not directly. They were close friends to the school and they had been in New Haven when I had

been there getting masters degrees, but they actually ran the YMCA in Changsha.

P: You want to tell the story about him?









SRC -10 Morland, page 37

M: The Chinese communists in 1956 initiated what they called the Hundred Flowers Movement. Mao

Zedong either thought that they had been so successful in their revolution that people would no be

critical of it, or he was setting a trap for the intellectuals. At any rate, he urged people and all

around them said tell us about what we can do that would improve what were doing. This just

blew the top off things that had been repressed, and so the communist regime was thoroughly

criticized. Mao said these are not flowers that are blooming, the hundred flowers were let a

hundred flowers bloom, let a hundred schools contend. He said they're not flowers, they are

noxious weeds and we need to get rid of them. Those who had been pushed and forced into

speaking, the intellectuals, were labeled as Arightests@. As rightests, they no longer had a job,

they no longer had a rice ticket, they had to do whatever common labor there was, they had to go

to the backs of restaurants to try to get what food they could, they had to sleep in the allies. Their

families were afraid to speak to them and their friends would not speak to them. Among the

verified and generally wonderful people we knew was one name Zhang E=fen, and here is the

picture that you are referring to. When he was labeled as a rightest, he was puzzled as to what he

should do. He decided that he would take his own life so that his family would not be censored so

heavily. He filled his pockets full of stones, went to the bridge across the river at Changsha,

jumped into the river (this was during the winter time) and drowned. He was not alone. The co-

editor with whom I=m working with was declared a rightest. He had studied English additionally at

Nan Qing University and he was recruited by the People=s Liberation Army to go to Korea to

interpret for the American and British soldiers so they could communicate with their homes or they

could have their needs met. It was during that time that he was pushed and urged to criticize so

they could improve things. He was labeled a rightest and he said for twenty-two years my family

wouldn't speak to me, I could not marry, I had to live in the alleyways, I had to eat what food that









SRC -10 Morland, page 38

was left over, I had to do menial tasks. He said they took away my blooming years; he had always

wanted to be a writer. In a way were restoring this opportunity although he=s now seventy. I

have urged him to do an autobiography to say what it was like to be a rightest. He has hesitated

because he=s not sure how this would get out of China or how it would be received, but he said

he=d finally decided to do an autobiographical novel. I named him Leo, his name was Lu Zheng

Bi, and I said Leo, in English there=s a difference between an autobiography in which you=re

writing about yourself and the people you know, actual characters, and a novel in which you create

the characters and the situation although they might derive from your experience. But as a rule,

we have a disclaimer in a novel which says any resemblance to persons past or present is

coincidental. He=s now saying he thinks he=ll do an autobiographical novel for China, but he=ll

do a straight autobiography in English for us. I=m hoping he=ll have that opportunity.

P: You spent three years in China, you had been to Yale Divinity School, and you had told me earlier

that you didn't have a particularly sensitive racial consciousness prior to this in high school and

college. You hadn=t been alerted to the injustices that were all around you in Alabama and other

southern states.

M: I had not until I was in college at Birmingham Southern, a part of the Student Christian Movement,

and we went to meetings outside the South, and it was in those situations that I was able to meet

and talk with highly educated negroes, they were called at this time who could tell us what it was

like and how humiliating and how detrimental the system was for them and for this country.

P: How did you feel about that? What direction did you think it implied for you in your career and your

own personal life?

M: I was determined that I would do what I could in cooperation with others to get rid of forced racial

segregation which kept Whites in a dominate position and Blacks in a subordinate position.









SRC -10 Morland, page 39

P: So this was in this YMCA movement that you began to be sensitive to this.

M: It was the [YMCA], it was also the Student Christian Movement which had conferences outside of

the South.

P: Tell us about the Student Christian Movement.

M: It was open to everyone, although our school were segregated. They had the student Christian

movements in the all Black schools, so when we got together at conferences, I can remember

particularly one at Miami University at Oxford Ohio. I spoke last time of it, but I didn't tell you one

incident that revealed something that made us very disturbed and angry about the American

system. One of my colleagues there taught at what is now Norfolk state. His name was John

Blue I think.

P: I know him.

M: We said let=s go down and eat because they are supposed to be integrated here. We went to a

restaurant from the university and they said we will serve you Whites, but we cannot serve the

Blacks. This is in Ohio. So we said if you can=t serve all of us, you won=t serve any of us. The

next day, we got John Blue to borrow one of the head dresses of an African student. We went

back to the same restaurant, they were as courteous, as accepting as they could possibly be.

Here was an American who had been rejected, but when they thought he was a foreign Black from

Africa or some other place they accepted him. This was deeply disturbing. This was the way we

were treating our own citizens.

P: So by this time, you were really thinking about it and thinking about your role in dismantling it.

M: It was one of the reasons I went on to Yale Divinity School. It was integrated, it was highly

conscious of racial discrimination, it had a very strong social gospel approach, it had an

outstanding faculty, so that was one of the reasons I went there. Although my major had been in









SRC -10 Morland, page 40

the physical sciences, I was accepted and went into an entirely different area as a result. I will say

one thing, though. The [YMCA] at Birmingham Southern decided we would try to have our own

integrated group. We talked with friends at Miles College, which wasn=t very far from Southern,

and I knew Herman Long was president at that time, I knew him and others.

P: At the time you knew him?

M: When I was at Southern.

P: When you were a student there you knew him?

M: Yes. So we got a group and went to the downtown YMCA and had an integrated meeting in

Birmingham, probably the only one.

P: What year would that have been?

M: That would have been 1938, my last year at Southern, I was a senior.

P: So now, by the time you had left China now, you really were stirred to care about these issues.

You had now seen something in another culture. What was the association between your

experience in Chinese culture? Did that have any bearing on your perception of American

segregation and the culture of White supremacy?

M: It had a very profound bearing.

P: Can you tell us about that?

M: One of the things that bothered us mostly at the Yale School were the Americans who came in in

WWII to help Chiang Kai-shek and the Guomindang, the nationalist government, look down on the

Chinese. They though they were backward, they thought that here these people had been here all

these years and they didn't have decent roads, they didn't have good restaurants, clean and all,

and they judged the Chinese from the point of view of their own society and culture, and they

missed what was so moving and beautiful about China.









SRC -10 Morland, page 41

P: Were these American public officials and missionaries? Who were they?

M: They were soldiers, but also the missionaries had that same kind of view. They were saving these

people who were lost if they didn't somehow breakthrough and get to them. My students told me

on no uncertain terms that they deeply resented the soldiers who were arrogant. They said some

of them are very, very friend and all, but some of them are arrogant. These things come out in the

essays I might say. The missionaries made these negative judgements about how they could be

saved from eternal damnation if only they would believe and do what the missionaries wanted them

to do. This turned me off from the missionary who was there to convert. There were other kinds of

missions, educational missions, agricultural missions that would help with different aspects of life

and who were not all that evangelical.

P: Did this help you understand the definition of ethnocentrism?

M: Absolutely. It came out loud and clear.

P: You left China in 1946 apparently and you left for the Yale China Association?

M: I was asked to serve as executive director.

P: Immediately after?

M: Immediately after.

P: It was a paid position?

M: It was paid, but not particularly well. $3,000 a year which was, even in 1946, could barely make

ends meet.

P: What did you do with this association? Were you in New Haven?

M: In New Haven. Yale provided us with offices and with opportunities to speak to alumni. I went to

various places. [In] New York City [I] had a long session with Henry Loose who was a graduate of

Yale and a very strong supporter of China, he was very much interested, and started him thinking









SRC -10 Morland, page 42

about rebuilding the school. He and W. Averal Harrowman of New York appealed to Yale

graduates and they raised B I was in Henry Loose=s office for example one time, and asking him

for his regular contribution which was more than my salary for a year that he would give, he was

very generous. He got on the phone and he called about five people and he said look, I=m giving

$2,000 to your organization, and I=11 increase it if you will give to the Yale in China Association. In

thirty minutes, he had raised over $10,000, which in 1946 was a sizeable sum.

P: What else did you do there? Did you promote further trips of other students? What kind of

activities were involved with the association that you were responsible for?

M: We published a newsletter to let all those that had any contact and who were interested know what

Yale in China was and what it was doing. My chief job was to raise money in order to have

sufficient funds to send Yale graduates out to teach, and to bring Chinese to Yale University to

study. The office of Yale in China alerted the Yale student body that we had places, at this time,

for English teachers, a nurse, and an M.D. and we were going to pay their way there, reimburse

them to some degree and then keep that contact with Yale in China moving and keep it alive, and

also with the promise that we would build a new school. We opened up a competition for persons

who were interested in rebuilding Ya Li, the Yale in China school and there was a Chinese, King

Louis Woo was chosen by the board of trustees. I, of course, was at the board of trustees

meetings, and would organize them and we got people there like Dean Wigel of Yale Divinity

School whom I got to know very, very well and who was a big help. Henry Sloan Coffin of Union

University in New York was the vice president of the board, and we had other persons of very high

caliber who would discuss and talk about what should be done.

P: You were there at the association for how long?









SRC -10 Morland, page 43

M: I was there for one year. It was beginning to be clear that the Guomindang was not going to win

that civil war, and that if the communists came in, Yale would go out. I realized that I really wanted

to get into a more intellectual approach. I wanted to go into teaching. I began taking courses in

anthropology at Yale, and sociology, I did them at night, and I wrote a recommendation to the

board and said I think there are two ways you might move. One is to have Ross Dickson, who

had stayed an extra year in China, divide the executive position and both of us would take a course

or two at the graduate level, or you could get a new executive. They decided they wanted to get a

new executive, so I tried to get a scholarship or scholarship help at Yale and went to Leo Simmons

who was one of my teachers, he wrote Sun Chief, a great biography of a Hopi Indian.

P: And he was a medical sociologist as well.

M: I didn't realize that. He had nothing for me. I went to the head of the graduate school, they had

nothing. But it was interesting, Howard Odum of the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill was

visiting lecturer. I took his course, which was at night, and liked very much what he was doing.

When I received no positive affirmation at Yale, I asked him about coming to the University of North

Carolina to get my degree. He was skeptical. He wondered why anybody would leave Yale to go

to UNC, but one of the reasons I wanted to was that Yale graduate school offered no courses in

the summer. Here I was in the thirties and still without a position that I wanted to build in or without

the kind of education that would give the position that I would like to have. He told me to come on.

He would see that I would make it. I understand that he diverted the window-washing fund for

Alumni Hall in which the sociology courses were being taught, and anthropology courses, and I

was able to make it with that B I >d say the little bit from being executive secretary, but also I got a

very good fellowship at UNC. John Gillin was teaching at Duke, he was an anthropologist, and he

and his father had written a textbook called SocialAnthropology, very fine book. Odum said I=ve









SRC -10 Morland, page 44

promised I=d turn over some top-notch students to John Gillin, so I was turned over to Gillin. So I

took his courses and those of Guy Johnson who was both a sociologist and anthropologist.

Those fields used to be much closer together than they are at the present time.

P: They were in the same department.

M: Yes.

P: The course that you took with Odum was what?

M: It was the Sociology of the South primarily.

P: Did it resonate with you?

M: It resonated beautifully with me because it brought together so many loose ends of greater

understand of the society from the point of view of the social scientists.

P: What was Howard Odum like?

M: Odum was a strange person in many ways. He was not a good lecturer. He didn't organize

things well, but he was inspirational and he would come through at times with things that would just

thrill me, but as a totality he was not easy to follow, easy to work with necessarily.

P: His influence on sociology of the South, on other scholars, could you comment on that?

M: He was very, very great. He was the leader and UNC a leader. He and Guy Johnson were there.

Guy Johnson had a year as director of the Southern Regional Council. He showed me how you

could use your knowledge from sociology and put it into practice with an organization that was

primarily promoting race relations, primarily trying to get rid of the cast-like system that the United

States had at the time based on race.

P: Before you left Yale, did you have memorable teachers there as you took those part time courses?

M: Leo Simmons I=ve mentioned. Another, Raymond Kennedy was a great teacher.

P: In sociology or anthropology?









SRC -10 Morland, page 45

M: Anthropology. He was doing field work in Indonesia and this was during the time of the disturbance

where the Dutch were in charge and he was very much interested in me and I think had he not met

a terrible fate, I would have stayed at Yale. He and one other colleague were out in the rural area

of Indonesia, Bali I think, and they were surrounded by rebels who thought they were Dutch and

they were taken out and executed. That was a big loss for me and for the university.

P: Now you moved to Chapel Hill and you were single. Were you excited about going to Chapel Hill?

M: Very much so. Frank Graham was there.

P: He was the president?

M: He was president. There was an openness, there was a spirit that I liked even better than the one

at Yale in terms of learning and challenging and the opportunities in the South I felt were greater

for me than they were up in New Haven.

P: This was in what year?

M: This would have been in the fall of 1967.

P: When you went to Chapel Hill for the first time?

M: 1947. In the two years from 1947 to the end of 1948, 1 had completed my course work, John Gillin

sent me out to the field which was South Carolina. He received a Rosenwald grant, the last of the

Rosewald funds, and it was enough for me to ask Margaret Louise Ward to marry me. I was

asked to study the mill village section of a South Carolina town.

P: How is it that you were awarded the prize of Margaret? How did that occur?

M: We were both from Birmingham.

P: Did you know her from before?

M: I had met her, but only briefly. She was beautiful, very much interested in what I was doing.

P: Progressive thinking too?









SRC -10 Morland, page 46

M: Very much so.

P: She was in tune with your present attitudes about race and American apartheid?

M: Yes. She hadn=t had the kind of exposure that I had had, but she was ready. So I took this bride

who had been brought up in Mountain Brook, which is the elite of Birmingham, and we went to live

in the mill village sections of a South Carolina town.

P: What was the town you were examining?

M: The town was York, South Carolina which we called Kent, the Duke of York, the Duke of Kent. It

was customary at that time to disguise the name and to be sure we didn't identify people

themselves. We were going to look at the system, and not at particular individuals and certainly

not to make any kind of evaluation.

P: Did this have any kin at all to the book of Blackways of Kent.

M: Hylan Lewis wrote Blackways of Kentand he and I were in York at the same time. I was studying

the mill village sections, he was studying the Black sections.

P: Was he a student or was he...

M: He was working on his doctorate and he was at New York at CCNY. Also, there was a third

person, Ralph Patrick. Ralph Patrick with Yelin had first gone through the South and they

selected York as a place that had both the old South and the new South. It had the kind of

grandeur in its housing of the elite, but it also had the industrial South in the mill village.

P: New textile industry that was beginning to develop widely or had developed widely.

M: Then it had a sizeable Negro population as well. Patrick found that he could not do a thorough job

on all three sections, he tried to. So he took the town of Kent and I took the mill village sections

and Hylan Lewis took the Black sections.

P: Was there a third book written or was it just the two books written about that?









SRC -10 Morland, page 47

M: Just the two. Ralph Patrick could never quite bring himself... Now he was getting his doctorate [in

anthropology] in MIT, which he did. He taught medical anthropology at Chapel Hill, although he

passed away much, much too early. I remember his wife would put the two books, the one I=d

written on Mi//ways of Kent and the one Hylan Lewis had written on Blackways of Kenton their

mantle, and said where is Townways of Kent? But he was never able to pull it off.

P: Hylan Lewis, what was he like? What do you recall about him?

M: Delightful person. We worked together well. We had to share a recording device. We had to

share it without letting people know that we were working together, at least we were both from

UNC. I would park the UNC van at a certain place and he would come by, this would be at night,

and I would slip him the recording machine. He said he had to be very careful because the Blacks

would say you=re just feeding this stuff to the Whites. But Hylan was able to get into the real heart

of the community and his Blackways ofKentis I think a gem of community study by an

anthropologist.

P: Was he Black?

M: Yes, he had to be.

P: To gain report and access at the time.

M: Yes. 1=11 say one thing about Hylan. There was place I visited fairly often that both Blacks and

Whites frequented. It was a place where they would play pool and do a lot of heavy drinking. The

liquor store was right next door.

P: Little Red Ball?

M: Yes.

P: South Carolina beverage control store.









SRC -10 Morland, page 48

M: Well it was, that's right it was. I remember he went in and they didn't know who he was and he

had his hat on and some Whites said nigger, take that hat off. Hylan said it just went all over him,

but the studies got to be saved to he gradually took his hat off, and the man said oh you=re not

who I though [you were], I was just teasing, I apologize. This was a White who said that to Hylan.

P: So there were classes of prejudice you might say.

M: Oh definitely, yes.

P: So Kent, or York, was a complicated town. It had the moderate thrust of industrial life, but it had all

segregated, and then it had proud and elegant...

M: It had three way segregation.

P: Tell us about that.

M: You had the Black section of course with the leading persons there, as I said yesterday, the funeral

director and the ministers were the ones who were in leadership positions. The mill village section

was owned by Charles Cannon and I might say that...

P: Of Cannon Industries?

M: That=s right. John Gillin took me to meet Mr. Cannon, and to tell him that I was going down into

[End of Tape 2, side A] one of his mill village towns and that if I gave them any trouble, to let him,

Gillin, know. But I was there just to observe and to understand. Cannon said to me, he said

they're not going to accept you. You ought to go in there as a salesman or something else, not as

somebody who is studying them because they=ll clam up on you. I thanked him for his advice, but

I thought it was the worst possible advice because very soon, they would know that I wasn=t

interested in selling, and then they would have clammed up and I wouldn't have gotten anywhere.

P: You actually moved into that community and you were married?









SRC -10 Morland, page 49

M: I moved in and I lived with a retired couple. Margaret and I did not marry until I had been there for

one semester. She came in in the middle of the year, we were married in February. Then we lived

in the town section after that.

P: You lived in a little house?

M: We were boarding with one of the elite families.

P: This was an all White community?

M: This part that Ralph Patrick had studied. He had stayed previously with this family, they were a

mother and daughter who had boarders. Though they didn't have boarders, they had roomers.

Margaret and I had a refrigerator which we shared with somebody else, but we also ate at the mill

boardinghouse, and there I learned a great deal. I could turn the conversation politically or I could

turn it religiously or I could turn it in terms of leisure time and it was a real education.

P: Your book referred to the White community, did it not? The workers were a segregated workforce

largely?

M: At that time, the house the mill people lived in came with their job. It gave Cannon a great deal of

strength you know.

P: Like the coal industry in other parts of the South.

M: That=s right. This was disappearing. The mill owners were getting rid of the villages because they

were difficult. We got to know two or three families very intimately, Margaret and I did, very well,

and we used to visit them each time we went from Williamsburg, where I taught first, to

Birmingham. We always stayed over with the mill people, and always called each other at

Christmas time. We found them warm, accepting people as long as they were accepted as they

were.









SRC -10 Morland, page 50

P: Did you find that people, in interviewing, are often willing to be very revealing if there=s a bit of

trust and report and understanding about what the interviewer is going to do with the information?

How did you find that? How did you find Mr. Cannon=s proposition to be wrong?

M: People were very suspicious of somebody from outside coming in. I told them, I=m a student from

the University of North Carolina and I am here to learn how southerners really live. I said there are

a lot of people that don=t understand the South, and they give wrong impressions, but were

going to get the right impression if we can work together. We can tell them the truth of living here

and what a great part of the country this is. They went for this and I was accepted. I went of

fishing trips and we went sailing in the river. At first I thought they wanted me for my company, but

they wanted me for my height because we would have to hold a net up. I was 6'4" and I was able

to hold it up higher and they brought it around and then got into the willows or the like and they

beat the bushes and ran the fish into the net. Then we would get inside and grab these fish, pull

them out. I always felt a little uncomfortable, I never did grab many fish, but they always took some

pity on me and said Morland isn=t very good at this. So they gave Margaret and me a fish or so

and we would=ve gone hungry sometimes had they not done that.

P: You were there for how long?

M: I was there for twelve months.

P: Twelve full months, so you really were a resident of that community.

M: In a way, although when the book came out, I remember the family with whom we stayed in the

town section said you=ve not given an accurate of the relationship between the town and the mill

village because the town people look down on the mill people, and no doubt about it. They would

not let the mill people come to the front door for example, they have to go to the back door. They

really criticized Margaret and me for having mill friends come to our apartment in their home to









SRC -10 Morland, page 51

have dinner. They said you=re embarrassing us. They said don=t do this anymore. So there was

this kind of thing and I told them well, I reported as I saw it, and I know it=s presumptuous to come

down for a year and to try to tell what this town is like even though there were three of us at work

on it. I said we do the best we can without trying to make any kind of judgement one way or the

other.

P: Did other people criticize the book? Did they ask to see it? What was the general acceptance of

the book later? Did very many people read it at all?

M: It was reviewed by mill workers= publications in Gastonia and in other towns that had mills in them.

Very critical. They did not like the book. Our friends in the mill village stood up for us and they

said you know every word in this book is true. If you kept your big mouth shut it wouldn't have

gotten in there in the first place. The rumor was that in the village (it was very strong) that we had

been found to be communist spies and we were locked up in a federal penitentiary in Washington.

P: Because of this book?

M: Because of our being down there and inquiring and getting all this information. Our friends just

laughed at this and said we know that's not so. The Presbyterian minister, whom we got to know

quite well in the town section, went to Richmond and he was there at the seminary in Richmond,

Union [Theological Seminary], and he said he would get things straight. He sent postcards to York

and he said Margaret and Ken Morland are alive and well and teaching at William and Mary. He

said he knew if he put it on a postcard, everybody in the town would know about it.

P: Do you remember his name?

M: Malcolm... I=d have to look it up, I=m not sure. But he and his family were wonderful to us.









SRC -10 Morland, page 52

P: What did your experience there tell you about social stratification in that town and what could be an

example across the country. Was there a lesson to be learned about class and race in that town

that was important to you?

M: I think it reflected the kind of system that Americans had. There were the elite, and by the way

Ralph Patrick broke those down into the blue bloods and the red bloods. The blue bloods looked

down on the Whites who were not mill people, and they did not live in houses that were as grand

as the upper group. The red bloods looked down on the mill people and probably more so even

than the blue did. Even the Blacks considered taking a position to help a mill family was much

lower in status than helping a town family. Hylan Lewis was able to tell me this is the way they felt.



P: So it was an example of August Hollingshead=s classification of social stratification in our country

in anyway?

M: It was very clearly stratified because you had both physical as well as the social stratification.

P: By your study of the related literature at the time, how representative did you think this study was of

conditions in the country?



M: It had the advantage of being an intensive study of a small town of around 4,500 people studied

intensively in the three major divisions. So it would, I think, put in depth the sorts of things that

Allison Davis had written about, that even Cuna Myrdal had reported on. The three studies, and

if Ralph Patrick=s had been published, they would have been combined into a single volume

which was unique at that time. By the way, we did not have complete acceptance by

anthropologists because to be an anthropologist, you needed to go out to some unknown tribe

somewhere. But if you were a part of the society you were studying, and we were, then you would









SRC -10 Morland, page 53

not have the objectivity. Yet, we had the tremendous advantage of knowing the language and the

language being the vehicle of the culture. We could know what went on in innuendos and

discussions. I attended church service, the mill people were very religious, and I went to the

Church of God of Holiness, the Wesleyan Methodist, and the Mill Village Baptist. They were all

totally segregated from the town, but they were also classified within the mill villages themselves,

the mill sections themselves, and I can remember the superintendent B I went to see him, I paid

him my respects and told him who I was and what I was doing B and he said, you get to know the

Baptists, they're the good people here. These others are sort of shiftless. He attended a church

in town because he was affiliated with the town, but he did not go to the Mill Village Church. But I

got to know the ministers very well in the mill village sections. As a matter of fact, each week, I had

to write up in detail carbon copies of all I had done this week and get them to Gillin because he

said you might have to destroy all your notes and I want a copy of everything, but he also wanted

to be sure that I was doing my job. He told me you=re spending too much time with the people in

religion. I told him I was there learning a whole lot. For example, I attended all the handling of the

snake services where visiting people would come, set up a tent, put sawdust down on the ground

and they would come with a very fundamentalistic gospel, and then they would bring out the

snakes. They were in cages, they were usually copperhead snakes or moccasins. The town

police had a real problem there. Do you allow these snake handlers to subject members of the city

to some kind of danger? They worked it out with the visiting evangelists and all of those who were

true believers would come up on the little podium and they would hold up these snakes and say in

the name of the Lord Jesus and they would take a verse from the book of Mark and say if you truly

believe, you can handle serpents and they will not strike you, you can drink poisonous liquids and it

will not harm you. I can remember little boys running around with concoctions that they had had









SRC -10 Morland, page 54

and telling the chief snake handler drink this for us, drink it. They said not yet fellows, not yet

fellows. Interestingly, the chief snake handler was bitten by a snake and his arm had bad swelling,

but he would have no medical attention, he said God will take care of it, and he survived all right.

He said God was just testing me to see if I was a true believer.

P: Were these indigenous or itinerant, the snake handlers?

M: The snake handlers were itinerant.

P: What was the ethnic background of the mill folk. Were they native to South Carolina, that part of

South Carolina? They were immigrants from other parts of the country?

M: No, they were from families that had been farmers, almost all of them. As a matter of fact, they still

had relatives, many of them, and I went out and lived with farmers and helped them for the first

time in my life go pick cotton and sawgram, and run a sawgram mill and drive a tractor. I got a

great deal by living in their homes and just being a part of the their family.

P: Was it an advantage or a disadvantage to have been a southerner yourself?

M: I think it was an advantage, but the major thing that made this system of Gillin and of the

participant observer work was genuine appreciation and acceptance of the people you were

studying. You were not evaluating them, you were not looking down on them. You had admiration

and those young men, for example, and those who were in school did not do very well. I talked to

their teachers, but when I went with them say coon hunting, possum hunting, they knew exactly

what to do. We went out with dogs and we would let the dogs loose, and we would talk our talk,

usually stories that I had a dilemma, should I put them in this book or not because they would not

be considered proper and I left them out. At any rate, they could hear immediately when the dogs

had treed something and they could go through the underbrush; very skilled in that way. If the

schools had taught them what they practiced, they would have come out very, very high. But they









SRC -10 Morland, page 55

taught them on book knowledge in which they were not interested. The realization that these

people were bright in their own way, that they were hard-working, that they were loyal, that they

cared about each other and they cared about their families B not all of them, there were some

drifters that I identify in the book B once this happened, it really wouldn't matter where you were

from. I think Hylan Lewis had to be a Black, he could not have gotten there. One of the problems

with Ralph Patrick was his home was Gastonia and he was in the upper families there, and to

write about what was going on in a candid way proved just overwhelming for him.

P: What was Margaret=s role while she was there? Did she help gather information in any way?

M: She was indispensable in the sense that she could go to women=s sewing circles. As a single

male there some question about you, but you if you have a beautiful wife you=re more acceptable.

So together, we went to funerals, we went to church services, we went to birthday celebrations.

She could talk to women and talk about women=s work, rearing of children and all the rest, in a

way that would have been very, very difficult for me to have done. She made a major contribution.

P: Did she actually write notes and offer them to you?

M: Yes. John Shelton Reed who published Southern Cultures came here and did an interview with us

and I showed slides. It=s an article in the second volume of Southern Cultures called

ARemembering Kent and the conversation with Margaret and Kenneth Morland@.

P: And there=s lots of pictures there too. You took lots of photographs didn't you?

M: I took a great many photographs. I used the camera mainly to get pictures of children and events.

Then I would talk to the mill people, how about my showing this in your house? They would get

neighbors and they would have refreshments, and so we would have a showing. They would just

laugh and carry on when they would see each other in the pictures because they hadn=t seen

color slides before, but I guess I made fourteen or fifteen presentations in mill villages homes.









SRC -10 Morland, page 56

P: In China and now again in South Carolina, you=ve told me lots about how you were concerned

about negative evaluation ethnocentrism with folk people who you were working with or studying.

This is the second time you=ve described with great intensity. So what was happening inside you

about this question of equality and ethnocentrism and race, the tangle of race in America? As you

made the formal efforts with your academic career there at Chapel Hill and in the field in South

Carolina, what was going inside you at the time?

M: You=re so busy observing and trying to understand and get your notes written and getting them

typed out, that you don=t have a great deal of time for introspection. In retrospect, I could see how

exceedingly difficult it would be for anybody in any culture in any society to throw off ethnocentrism

and to keep from evaluating in terms of their own station in life other people. For example, the mill

people were very critical of the town people. They said they're a bunch of hypocrites up there.

They put on heirs, were more genuine down here you know. The Blacks had their ethnocentric

views of both the town and of the mill people. It is something that's ingrained. What is your

standard of trying to determine who these people are if you are evaluating? It has to be the one

you're accustomed to.

P: We know from your later work that you were noted for egalitarianism and you were a mortal enemy

of segregation and so forth. In your growing up, White supremacy was all around you and here

you find yourself studying and studying people in other cultures or subcultures and you seem to be

advocating an open view of them. I was wondering, at the end of your academic experience and

so on, what were you thinking about race in America, particularly in the South, and what did you

have to do with it and about it?

M: I think the experience of being in a society or a part of society in which you observe and participate

as much as you=re permitted to participate, that there is a liberation that comes that you get to the









SRC -10 Morland, page 57

point where you do not make ethnocentric judgements, but you try to understand people for who

they are and for what they do and to appreciate them on that basis. This would be true of Blacks

and rural [people] and mill people and town people. You need to make a ceaseless effort to make

sure you=re seeking to understand and not to evaluate.

P: Why would people be motivated to do that if they grew up thinking that White supremacy was the

norm? Remember you described how normative was the White racism around you and how

unconscious Whites were and how apparently accepting Blacks were of it, for all you could see

they were accepting of it. How is it that you particularly came out of that place where you weren=t

thinking at all about race and now here you are making a career of the study of differentiation

between people on an arbitrary societal basis?

M: I think in the disciplines of sociology and anthropology, there is an experience, and my students at

William and Mary and in other schools in which I have taught have said B and I felt this was the

case particularly studying initially at Yale reading Margaret Mead and Ruth Benedict and Elsie

Clews-Parsons and so many who had done field studies trying to understand B that it made them

more open and more accepting and far less ethnocentric. They said these courses that you taught

and your colleagues taught made a big difference in our lives. I think if people believe, for

example, that the human species can be readily divided into specific different entities of races, as

the anthropologists I have studied have said, if people believe these differences are there, then the

effect of that is equivalent to these differences being there. Reality is connected to what people

think and the way they're viewing and looking at things. If you can realize that people grow up in

a situation as human beings mainly, that any kind of physical division is arbitrary, is culturally

derived, if you realize that, then you can be more open, more accepting of people who are different

from yourself.









SRC -10 Morland, page 58

P: When you were at Chapel Hill doing your graduate studies was there, like there was later in

sociology particularly and perhaps even in anthropology, an insistence on being objective and not

being involved in society? Social science was a distance observation of social reality and you

should never get involved in social reforms. Was that true of Chapel Hill at the time given Howard

Odum and the others who were there?

M: There are different roles here. As a social science, you seek to understand and you don=t let your

judgements affect what you=re seeing. You try to see what it is. You have, what I like to call, a

citizen role or a role in terms of your own values to look at these facts and if you don=t like them or

if you don=t like the structure to do something about them. But you are not a social scientist when

you do that. Yet, I saw that in Guy Johnson particularly with Southern Regional Council, I saw it

in Howard Odum, I saw it in Leo Simmons and Raymond Kennedy, John Gillin and the others.

You do your research so that somebody else and come back and repeat and find something

similar. If they don=t, you=re not doing a good job. On the other hand, you are free as an

individual, as a person with a certain set of values, religious beliefs or the like, to institute change

through organizations like the NAACP legal defense fund or like the Southern Regional Council or

the Fellowship of Southern Churchmen or some of these other organizations.

P: Did you ever find an occasion that that line was fuzzy between the social scientists versus the

citizen? After all, people called you a communist, that you were some kind of far-fetched idealist

coming into a community. So the debate in sociology has been often about the ability to truly be

objective that you did carry some of your values to the social science project, whether you intended

to or not. I was wondering if you ever encountered fuzzy cases of this or people who were critical.

Were there hard, strict constructionists on the one hand and other social scientists playing loose

and free with this notion?









SRC -10 Morland, page 59

M: I think it=s found in all disciplines. If you have a group of medical people read x-rays, they come

up with somewhat different answers because of who they are. On the other hand, they're trying to

understand what=s going on in this persons life and you need somebody else to check and to

double check. It=s hard to prevent yourself from being critical of things you don=t like and of

people you don=t like, but on the other hand, if you=re going to understand, you can=t... I

separate roles. I think when I am a member of say the Virginia Council on Human Relations, I

have a different role from when I am studying young children in terms of their race awareness. I

want to find out when do they become aware and what kind of attitude do they carry with the views.

You have both of these, and you never separate yourself totally, you are an individual, and yet we

have all kinds of roles. We have a role with our wife that we have with no other women, we have a

role with our daughters that we don=t have with other girls, we have a role with our friends, we

have a role with colleagues in the academic community, we have roles in any organization or

church or social group that there are expectations. We can handle multiple roles reasonably well.

We know when as a parent how we deal with our children. We don=t deal with other children

exactly the way we deal with our own, we have a somewhat different role with them.

P: When you were in a citizen role on occasion, did you find that in the back of your head you took

findings from the social sciences that were useful and applied them such as you suggested others

were doing? At such times, would you possibly have claimed that you had studied a little bit

deeper and you knew a little bit more about a racist rendition of race would be? In that sense, was

a social science role completely separated from the citizen role? Did you encounter any fuzzy

conditions like that?

M: I wouldn't call it a fuzzy condition. Take the example of Selma Alabama. I was a representative

of the United States Department of Commerce, worked with LeRoy Collins, the former governor of









SRC -10 Morland, page 60

Florida. [I] got to know Andrew Young and others in Selma. Actually, my mother was born in

Selma and my father just north of there in Greensboro, Alabama. One of the reasons I was sent

there was because of my background. I could go and talk to the mayor, I could talk to Blacks and

they frequently had attitudes and ideas about race that I knew were wrong, but I didn't try to

correct them, but I could kind of see through that where they were coming from and reported in that

way. I would call it an informed kind of activity, informed through the knowledge that comes from

being a student of sociology and anthropology.

P: By being informed, now you could initiate some constructive next step with them toward a solution

about a race conflict of some sort.

M: We could certainly do that. I can remember in Selma again finally getting together the leaders in

the Black community and in the White community together in the old Albert hotel. We said we are

here to help you understand what the situation is, so the Blacks could talk directly to the Whites

and tell them what they were like and what they were afraid of, and the Whites could talk again with

much greater understanding reflecting their own views and the Blacks views as well. [End of Tape

2, side B]

P: We were talking about the sometimes division between the roles of social scientists and citizen and

you were telling me about an example of a presentation in Selma, Alabama, the city where the

famous march occurred, and you were there before in this session that you were going to describe

before the Selma march on the bridge.

M: That=s correct, yes.

P: What session were you involved in? Who was there and what went on?

M: The very first time, the community relations service of the U.S. government of the U.S. Department

of Commerce. As a matter of fact, we had a conference with Luther Hodges, I think he was the









SRC -10 Morland, page 61

Department of Commerce then, and this is in Title Ten of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. It was set up to

help communities deal with any problems of desegregation they encountered.

P: What year do you think it was that you recall? That you were down in Selma at this meeting?

M: 1964.

P: Right after the Civil Rights Act?

M: That=s right, right after. I went down under the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

P: It was just a matter of weeks or months after it?

M: Yes.

P: Because it was May [of] 1964 the act was passed. So they started this service right away.

M: Immediately, yes.

P: They invited you onboard. How did they choose you Ken, at that time?

M: I=m not sure. I had been with the U.S. office of education on other projects. They knew

something of my Alabama background and the wanted a southerner in there. They had one

person who was with the CRS, the Community Relations Service, and he was from South Carolina

as a matter of fact. He and I went down together. This had to do with the problem in voting. The

Blacks simply could not register to vote and they were very distraught and they asked for help. So

we came down to see if there was anything that could be done through the U.S. government.

[interruption]

P: We were in Selma?

M: Yes. I was asked by the community relations service, which was created by the 1964 Civil Rights

Act and under the guidance of the department of commerce. I was asked to go with one of the

regular programmers at CRS, Mac Seacrest who was from South Carolina. We were in

Washington and went to Selma together. It was necessary to fly into Selma and then to rent a car.









SRC -10 Morland, page 62

We went down in 1964 after the Community Relations Service had been created, and our first visit

was to the mayor of Selma. We told him that we had come at the request of some members of the

community and that we were here to do whatever we could and what could we do? His answer

was keep Martin Luther King out of town. We said we can=t do that because he=s free to come

and free to go, we live in that kind of country. He said the best thing you can do is get out of town

yourself. So we had no cooperation whatsoever from mayor of Selma at the time. Smitherman

was his name.

P: But you did have a public meeting?

M: We visited various people. I knew the director of the YMCA because when I was in Birmingham,

our basketball team juniors in high school had come down to play their basketball team. Mr. Grist

was well known in YMCA circles so I went to see him and to remind him of our relationship and to

ask him what was going on and what did he think could be done. I did the same in terms of going

to see Mr. Faulkenberry who was editor of the newspaper. His daughters had gone to Randolph-

Macon and so he gave me a very cordial reception.

P: You had been at Randolph-Macon by this time.

M: Yes, I was there in 1964. I went to Randolph-Macon in 1953 as a matter of fact.

P: So you visited folks there and tried to get a measure of what was going on. What else happened

while you were there?

M: We, Mac Seacrest and I, were able to persuade seven leaders of the White community and seven

leaders of the Black community to come together in the old Albert Hotel, which was torn down

shortly after that, and to face one another and to talk about what could be done to hasten the

registration of voters because they were all being turned away. Mac Seacrest and I did go out to

see the registrar. He was in his eighties and he was in charge of the waterworks of Selma. Here









SRC -10 Morland, page 63

we had a town that was just about to erupt because of the tensions of not being allowed to vote.

Blacks were on the march and they wanted Martin Luther King to come. The head of the registrar

had us sit down and he said boys, you just tell me about yourselves. Here instead of facing us, he

wanted us to tell him about [ourselves]. I could speak up and say I was from Alabama, my mother

grew up in Selma, was born in Selma and grew up there, my father in Greensboro. Then Mac said

he was from South Carolina. So we gave our... and said we were concerned about people being

able to register. He was a registrar and we didn't understand what was holding things up. He

said were being very careful about who we let vote. They had a long questionnaire that it was

impossible for most people to vote. One of the Black ministers who was a leader in the Selma

community had come from the state of Missouri and he had been elsewhere and he had voted in

both of those very readily, but when he got to Selma, he was declared ineligible because he could

not deal with this set of questions that would determine whether or not he could vote.

P: So you went down there as a duo, you and your colleague?

M: Our goal was to open up the registration so that people could vote. This was true of poor Whites

and not well-educated Whites. There were very few people who were eligible to vote.

P: So you were sent there by the [Community Relations Service] just as a two person team. Your

partner, talk about him.

M: Mac Seacrest from South Carolina, but he was on the staff of Community Relations Service. He

was a newspaper man, but he had gone there. Somehow he had gotten there, I=m not quite sure

how.

P: Was he White or Black?

M: He was White.

P: So the idea was to try to negotiate something of a settlement?









SRC -10 Morland, page 64

M: To find out what was going on and to see if we could ease the situation. The director of public

safety was Wilson Baker and he was very cordial, very nice to work with, but the sheriff who was

head, really the power broker there, Sheriff Clark was very difficult to deal with and I think one

reason that the Martin Luther King group, the SCLC, chose to go to Selma was because of Sheriff

Jim Clark for the same reason they went to Birmingham because Bull Connor was head of the

safety commission and they knew their attitudes and knew that this would attract attention, this

would cause a blocking. They had had difficulty in Albany, Georgia they had pulled out too... It was

a failure for the SCLC and they were determined to make this work.

P: How long were you there?

M: We were there four or five days and then recalled to Washington to make our reports.

P: Did you imagine what was to happen there? Were you able to anticipate how those tensions you

were seeing might end up?

M: It was obvious. What the Blacks did was to meet at a church called Brown Chapel. I can

remember sitting in the back of that and singing we shall overcome with them. I heard King speak,

he was very persuasive. He said now were going out to tomorrow and were going to march.

We=re going to go around the courthouse (which is right in the center of Selma) and were going

to hold up our signs and were going to say please, we want to vote. He said if you can=t take

taunts, if you can=t take being prodded with a cattle prod, if you feel like you=ve got to return,

somebody hits you [and] you have to hit them back, please don't go. We=ve got to hold the moral

high ground because the constitution=s on our side, the Lord is on our side. He was just

absolutely magnificent in his appeal.

P: Was this during the time that you and your colleague were there?









SRC -10 Morland, page 65

M: The second time I went back. He had arrived. He was not there when we went first, he was on his

way there and that's why Smitherman, the mayor, said keep him out of town that's what you can

do. We said we can=t do that.

P: How long was the interval between your first and second visits?

M: About a week.

P: You in a sense except for this specific event, you could pretty much predict there would be

something happening in Selma, that it=d center on Selma.

M: We saw that the power structure of the Whites, the registrar, the sheriff, simply were not going to

accommodate people and they just did not want the Blacks to vote, that was the story, and they

didn't want the poor Whites to vote either.

P: You reported that to the Community [Relations] Service?

M: Yes we did. But we reported that we did have this communication between them and we thought

something might be worked out, but that was optimistic. The marches began and they started at

Brown Chapel and then well-dressed, well-behaved Blacks held signs saying please, we want to

vote, and they stood around the chapel, stood around the courthouse in the middle, and I saw

these police with cattle prods and I wondered how they felt. I went up to one of the policeman and

I said I want to know how that feels. He said are you in your right mind, I said I hope so. He said

stick out your hand. I stuck out my hand and hit it with the cattle prod, and I thought my arm and

shoulder were going to go over my head because it was a terrible jolt of electricity. That=s what

they were doing to people that wouldn't behave or wouldn't get out of the way, in any way stop

the demonstrations that they had.

P: This second visit of yours, the march across the bridge, when was that in relation to your visit?









SRC -10 Morland, page 66

M: I had returned to Randolph-Macon by that time. I had a full time teaching job and it was very

controversial to be involved in this, but I will say for both William and Mary and especially for

Randolph-Macon that we had presidents and deans who were totally sympathetic and totally

supporting and they knew that I was responsible and would get these classes taught and would do

that, as well as take the time to go to Selma. LeRoy Collins was the one who had and his

daughters had all gone to Randolph-Macon. He pleaded me, as a matter of fact, to join the

Community Relations Service.

P: As a staffer?

M: As a staffer, yes, and to leave Randolph-Macon. Because he said you=re very few in number and

we need you. But teaching was my area and to be with that would mean uprooting the family and

we were well-established here. I liked the college, we had high caliber students and wonderful

colleagues and superb administrators. So I told him I thought I would be on call very gladly, but I

couldn't change positions at that time.

P: Did you have other assignments with them?

M: Oh yes. He was the one in Washington who sent us initially. I had gone to other places for the

CRS. I had gone to Louisiana.

P: Was that with another sociologist?

M: Yes. The first Black who was head of an important sociology department at the University of

Louisville, and his name I can=t recall but I=m sure I=11 be able to find it in my notes somewhere.

P: What took you to Louisiana? What was the assignment there and where did you go?

M: When to a town called Houma where there was a three way segregation. There were the Whites

and there were the Blacks, and there were actually mixed people who liked to call themselves

Indians. They did not want to have a three way segregation. 1954 had been ten years earlier and









SRC -10 Morland, page 67

they were supposed to desegregate their schools, but they were segregated. So we went in to try

to talk to the superintendent of schools, we did.

P: Where was this?

M: This is in Houma, Louisiana. We also went to Baton Rouge which was having a similar difficulty

and we talked with the people there, the superintendent and the principles, students, to try to find

out why they were not moving toward desegregation and trying to get the students to go to the

school nearest them regardless of their race.

P: How long were you there for?

M: About three or four days we spent in Louisiana.

P: Were there return trips?

M: We returned to Washington to give our reports. They took it from there. They had certain ways

that they could bring pressure to bear and they were effective in that sense. But they had to know

what the setting was, what the situation was, what they were up against, why there was difficulty.

P: Did you find racial antagonism similar as you had found in Selma and other places?

M: Oh yes. There was very strong antagonism. There were feelings, as I said last time, that separate

but equal was the way to go. That it was best for Whites, it was best for Blacks, it was best for

Indians.

P: And that was what the Whites assumed or everybody assumed? That separate but equal

proposition, that was the assumption of the Whites?

M: Yes.

P: But not everyone.

M: No, not everyone.

P: I mean not the Blacks.









SRC -10 Morland, page 68

M: No. The Blacks wanted the freedom to go where they... Because as one title I just recently read, it

was separate but not equal. Of course that 1954 decision was so historic because it overthrew the

Plessy v. Ferguson 1896 which said as long as facilities are equal, they can be separate. That was

the kind of lynchpin that promoted segregation. I know it did in Alabama and Birmingham. The

whole thing was we are going to make things equal and of course you know the situation in Prince

Edward County.

P: You had other assignments with the CRS too.

M: Yes.

P: And some of those places were what?

M: In Arkansas in a place called Eldorado, I think that was the name of it. I interviewed, as before, I

was all by myself this time, and I tried to find out what the situation was and why they were having

trouble desegregating.

P: Desegregating the schools?

M: Yes. It was all school desegregation at that time. The superintendent of the school said our

problem is that the director of education in Arkansas is not from southern Arkansas, he=s from

northern Arkansas and that's why were having our difficulty. He doesn't understand us down

here. That, of course, was not the case at all, but it was given as that.

P: You were accumulating samples of local system of segregation, local attitudes, and willingness to

respond to the court orders and the new civil rights act and other requirements. Did you find

differences between these different localities and states? How did it compare in Virginia?

M: It was comparable to Prince Edward County in a sense, but there was never anything like Massive

Resistance. The Prince Edward County desegregation was ordered... was that before 1954 or was

it afterward?









SRC -10 Morland, page 69

P: The case started in 1951 and it was concluded, the decision was made in 1954 as one of the five

cases.

M: That=s right. It went to Brown v....

P: I was wondering about the comparison between the four states you=re talking about: Louisiana,

Arkansas, Alabama, and Virginia. Because you were accumulating, by this time and other

experiences, you had accumulated quite a number of samples of cases or segregation, the way it

was exercised.

M: The similarities, I think, outweighed any differences. In Arkansas, you had Orville Faubus the

governor, and I used to use this in my classes as the self-fulfilling prophecy. Faubus said our

people are not going to stand by and allow Little Rock school to be integrated. They=re going to

cause trouble, and you can see that they're going to cause trouble. It was, in effect, predicting in

a way that would make it come true.

P: Did you have other assignments yet? Still other assignments with CRS?

M: I went to White Sulphur Springs, but this was for the Legal Defense Fund under Thurgood Marshall

to find out why they were having difficulty there. This was a little bit different because the...

P: This was in West Virginia?

M: It was in West Virginia, but the Black principle did not want his school to be disrupted and he was

very much opposed to Blacks who were invited to go to the White school. The Whites were upset

because we have our annual dinner dance at the resort there B I forget the name of it right away,

but it=s one of the best known in the U.S., it=s a beautiful gorgeous place B because they won=t

accept Blacks, so they didn't want integration. It was a separate unique sort of situation. [End of

Tape 3, side A]









SRC -10 Morland, page 70

M: Massive Resistance is a good reference because that was where all the problem came, right out of

Harry Flood Byrd.

P: Yes indeed.

M: People would say that Virginia is of the Byrds, by the Byrds, and for the Byrds. You remember

that?

P: Yes indeed. I also spoke with a person one time who was a welfare client of mine when I was a

public assistance worker, and he had written some little quips and sardonic comments about the

Byrd machine, and in reference to the Cold War, he referred to Virginia being behind the Apple

Curtain.

M: [Laugh] The Apple Curtain.

P: Because of these apple orchards.

M: Yeah, that's where Byrd comes... they lived up in Winchester.

P: And he imported immigrant workers and so forth. We=re on tape four here and I=m with Ken

Morland once again. We=re continuing our conversation. We had been talking last time I think

about your exploits and adventures with Community Relations Service headed by LeRoy Collins at

the time. This was about 1964. Was this a part of the Civil Rights Act? Was it a provision in the

Civil Rights Act?

M: Yes, it was Title Ten of 1964 Civil Rights Act, which created the Community Relations Service

designed to help communities adjust to desegregation.

P: You told us a little bit about your visit to Selma and what you found and what it portended. A few

weeks later was the march across the Pettus Bridge was it? How long after your visit was that the

case?









SRC -10 Morland, page 71

M: I had been in Selma almost a week and we seemed to be getting some kind of harmony between

the leaders in the Black community and in the White community. Martin Luther King and others

looked upon Selma as a place where they could be heard and attract a great deal of attention

primarily because of the sheriff, Jim Clark, of that county.

P: Right from central casting?

M: Right, he was perfect. He wouldn't speak to those others from the Community Relations Service.

P: He wouldn't speak at all to you?

M: No, he would not have anything to do with us.

P: You called for appointments?

M: We called for appointments and he said no appointment with anybody related to the federal

government.

P: But there were soft spots elsewhere in the town.

M: Yes, Wilson Baker talked to us a lot and said we can get this settled, but he implied that Jim Clark

who had greater strength than he had B now Wilson Baker was the head of security, I forget how

that worked, in Selma B but Selma was in a county and was the sheriff of the county and of the city

as well, so he really had much more power than Wilson Baker.

P: I see. So about how long after you left did the march across the bridge and the confrontation with

the sheriff occur, do you recall?

M: About two or three days after I left. I remember seeing on television the march, I think John Lewis

was there and Martin Luther King and Ralph Abernathy, and once I got over on the other side of

the Alabama bridge, over the Pettus Bridge, they were met by Al Lingo who was head of the state

police and they were told to stop and they stopped more or less, but then Lingo and his troops

waited in and hit these defenseless people with their clubs and drove them back over the bridge.









SRC -10 Morland, page 72

They were bloody and knocked out, all on television. So I said to myself and to my friends, we are

going to have a civil rights act on voting, and it=s probably going to be punitive in terms of the

South, it=s going to be harsh. We could have done it another way, but no way now.

P: [What] did you think the resolution would have been? How could it have gone another way? Who

would have been figured in that? Could the feds do something different or could the local people

have done something different?

M: I think the local power group, the registrar, the mayor, and then with help of Wilson Baker, now

they would have had trouble with Jim Clark, they could have sat down and they determined the

rules or who was eligible to vote. There were so many rules. There was the poll tax, there was the

ability to pass an impossible kind of questionnaire, how many panes of glass are there in the White

House for example? If you didn't know that, you weren=t fit to vote.

P: That was on the test for Alabama at the time or for that county?

M: Just for that county.

P: You sort of offered a warning didn't you, to the feds?

M: I think we did, the ones with whom I worked in the Community Relations Service, that this needs to

be done, [and] if not it will be done in a harsh way rather than what I would consider as an

Alabamian, a less strict, strenuous way.

P: Did your word and observations get back to LeRoy Collins at the time? Was there a role for him

to...

M: He agreed with this. He thought that there could be a settlement. But of course LeRoy Collins=

great triumph there was to keep Martin Luther King and his group from marching to Montgomery

again, a second time. The first time, of course, they just got across the bridge. But the federal

judge in Montgomery, Frank B I know his name very well because I just read an entire book about









SRC -10 Morland, page 73

him, he is an Alabamian, he is from North Alabama B he declared an injunction against any march

until things could be worked out that they would know what kind of march it would be. It turned out

to be an exceedingly wise decision. King said my people want me to march and we just got to

march. LeRoy Collins was able to work with Andrew Young and with Jack Greenberg and they

came up with a plan of how many people would be in the march, how much of the highway would

be left for cars, where would there be rest stops? They couldn't make it in one day, where would

they stay and how would they keep warm during the night and what if there were rain? All of these

things were worked out and it was Collins getting Andrew Young who was the strategist there. As I

said last time, Martin Luther King was a great orator. He could inspire people, he could talk to

them. I listened to him again and again in Brown Chapel and I was ready to go, although that

wasn=t my role. On the other hand, he did not realize that if he went against the federal judge,

they would have imprisoned him and the whole movement would have been set back.

P: They would have lost the apparent support of the federal government?

M: That=s right.

P: One of the things that was important was the counterbalance between the strength of the federal

government standing behind the civil rights movement for voting and for public accommodations

and the rest, and the local recalcitrance all over the South. Was that the case?

M: That was the case. Of course, what happened in our attempt to get Selma itself to do something

about it did not work out once King came in and once that march was on television and they were

brutally assaulted. It attracted people from all over. I can remember one of my students saying I

can't go to class, I=ve got to go down to Selma and march.

P: We sent a student from MCV, one of our nursing students, who went there and was brutally

beated, was jailed, returned home, returned to MCV and then she was punished for being absent.









SRC -10 Morland, page 74

M: I hadn=t realized... I knew that the woman from Detroit was shot and killed, but they got the KKK

that did it. Also, there was a unitarian minister who was assaulted on the streets, I think it was after

dark, and killed. So there were two people who lost their lives because of that.

P: I=m not totally clear. Was the fact that the march persisted a good thing or was it untoward thing

do you think?

M: The fact that they worked out a compromise that King would lead a march across the bridge, but

when they got to the end of the bridge they would kneel in prayer. Interestingly, this time Al Lingo

who was head of the state police had his troops parked because he wanted them to go on to

Montgomery and break the law that override that injunction by the federal judge because that

would have been a victory for them. But this was the plan worked out by Jack Greenberg and

Andrew Young with the LeRoy Collings help and blessing.

P: So the NAACP legal defense fund had a part in planning some of the civil rights marches and so

on?

M: They had an indispensable part.

P: So Jack Greenberg was important in sort of the conceptual plans and so forth?

M: Definitely, yes.

P: Dr. King and the others, Andy Young and the others, Reverend Abernathy and all the rest, did they

listen and respect the lawyers?

M: Very reluctantly. They wanted to go ahead. Interestingly, once the plan had been approved by the

federal judge, and they organized carefully routed march was set up, then things went smoothly to

Montgomery, but the judge wanted to know whether he had followed this to the letter and that he

was not planning to break that injunction to go against his ruling. King said no, we were not.









SRC -10 Morland, page 75

P: Was it the first march that they ended up just across the bridge and they confronted the state police

and the local sheriffs?

M: The first march was almost spontaneous, it wasn=t very well planned. They went across the

bridge and they were beaten and television showed the whole thing.

P: They dispersed after that one?

M: The next one was carefully planned in order to take care of two opposing positions. One was to go

all the way to Montgomery, the other was to obey the federal judge. What they did was to cross

the bridge, stop and kneel in prayer, and then return to Selma.

P: So this was the second march.

M: This was the second [march].

P: And the planned march. The first march was, as you said, spontaneous and that's when the

horrendous beating at the front of the line [took place]. At that point, did they disperse? Did they

back up?

M: Oh yes. The marchers ran wherever they could get away from those clubs. John Lewis was

brutally hurt in that.

P: The second march, did the court enter in this thing after the first march? Is that when there was a

ruling?

M: Yes. Well, he said no more marches until there is a plan to do it, but in the mean time, King had a

lot of pressure put on him. Said look, we=ve got to show them that we really want this vote. So he

was caught between two forces: the NAACP Legal Defense Fund with Jack Greenberg there and

with Andrew Young, and the SCLC. They worked out a plan that was acceptable to the judge.

P: So SCLC and NAACP Legal Defense Fund, they were very cooperative at this point were they not?

At least in this particular demonstration.









SRC -10 Morland, page 76

M: I would say they were reluctantly cooperative to make this compromise of stopping and turning and

going back without attempting to go all the way to Montgomery, and then to get the approval for a

march that was carefully planned where there would be rest stops, where the highway would not

be too crowded. It was stipulated how many people could be on the highway at one time.

P: There had been some talk about NAACP and SCLC having their own agendas and not always

being congruent. Did you see evidence of that?

M: Oh yes. There was a struggle within both of those movements, but somehow they were able to

workout a compromise and I think that saved the day.

P: What do you think of the outcome. The way it came off, we had footage for the nation to see and

the European press and everywhere in the world to see what American democracy looked like, it=s

warts and all, and now what was the bottom line? How long was it before they the vote and the

poll tax assailed and all the rest? Looking back, was it successful the way it turned out?

M: I think it was successful the way it turned out. I think it could have been done differently, but

maybe I=m unrealistic there. [Thurgood] Marshall would have done it differently.

P: Where was he at this time? He was not in the NAACP Legal Defense Fund.

M: He was not directly involved because there were not arrests made and people put in prison, they

were just beaten back.

P: Jack Greenberg had been appointed his successor or was he just on the location?

M: In the book that Jack wrote called Crusaders in the Courts, there were about nine crusaders, we

can call them, and he was one of them. So he was down there appointed by Marshall to help

workout some kind of plan so that this could go smoothly. Don=t go against that judge, he said,

that judge has been on our side in every event, but the judge is right, you cannot just have a march

without some careful planning.









SRC -10 Morland, page 77

P: So Thurgood Marshall was a stickler for following the law.

M: Absolutely. He said, I heard him say it, if I didn't have to spend so much time getting Martin

Luther King and his followers out of jail, I would be able to get a lot more done down [there].

Whether that's the case or not I=m not sure, but I lean in the direction of Marshall because

Marshall said the constitution is on our side. The Declaration of Independence is on our side.

What we need are good cases which show that we are not following the spirit of the constitution,

were not following the ideals of the constitution. If we can get those cases in court, and of course

that's what he did in the 1954 decision. As you know, there were the five, and you=re familiar

certainly with Prince Edward, and I=m familiar with the one in Wilmington.

P: He was still with the Legal Defense Fund at the time, Marshall was?

M: Yes he was.

P: But several of them were down there in Selma during this episode participating in the case. Was

the case over a permit to march or something like that? What was the issue that took it to court

and got that federal judge to make or approve the plan for the march=s course?

M: I=m not sure what the process was. I don=t know whether his permission was asked or whether

his advice was asked, but somehow, he handed down a ruling that no march could take place until

a careful plan had been worked out.

P: Did the state of Alabama enter an attempt to obstruct that?

M: The state of Alabama with, I think either John Patterson or George Wallace was governor and they

were opposed to any kind of integration. As George Wallace said in one of his campaigns,

segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever. But he changed, he changed quite

dramatically.

P: He begged for an apology many years later.









SRC -10 Morland, page 78

M: He did, he said he was wrong.

P: Very few have attempted to apologize in a public way.

M: Of course, he was shot in Maryland and was in intense pain for the rest of his life.

P: How about Governor Patterson, what did you know about him?

M: Just as rigidly segregationist as I think any elected official had to be in Alabama at the time.

P: Were there other things that you think are interesting in the Selma case that we haven=t thought

about?

M: Not really. It does pose the question that we can=t avoid and that is can you get change through

the courts without violating the law, without having marches, without having confrontation, without

having even non-violent resistance can bring about violence.

P: Put more fundamentally it=s asked that in America, do we have the capacity within the law and the

constitution to bring out change when we get new information about an injustice?

M: I think if you compare the 1954 decision by the Supreme Court B which as I said before is

generally recognized and I would certainly agree, as the single most important decision made by

the Supreme Court during the 1900s B if you look at the way that was obtained with Thurgood

Marshall=s careful orchestrating and choosing quite wisely specific cases to help with the final

decision. Marshall and the Legal Defense Fund had people from all over saying come and help us,

come and help us, but he couldn't help everybody. So he carefully chose those particular areas,

one in South Carolina, Clarendon County I think, Prince Edward County, the one in D.C., and the

one in Wilmington...

P: Wilmington, Delaware, and the one in Kansas.

M: Yes, that's right, Kansas, of course. They were all brought up on the Kansas, right. And this

made a very wide range showing not only that your separation was not equal, but also that it would









SRC -10 Morland, page 79

be impossible under the circumstances to make it equal. That is Jack Greenberg was a spearhead

bringing in social scientists, Kenneth Clark primarily, and Jack Greenberg wrote me and asked me

if I would participate in the Wilmington trial.

P: Did this and other events in your experience suggest to you that within the American system, there

is the capacity through the courts and through electoral politics to gain justice no matter what the

odds? Or does there have to be in some, I think a paraphrase of Jefferson would just say, would

be that if a government is unjust you can overthrow it. Which of those sides? Would you go to that

kind of Jefferson idiom there or would you go along with Thurgood Marshall=s view of how to get

justice in America.

M: I would stay with Marshall. The problem is whether we could have gotten segregation changed in

actually without King is the big thing that haunts me because I saw the constitution and the support

that was given to the 1954 decision work. On the other hand, it took a great effort to get certain

schools desegregated...

P: Many years.

M: Regardless of what that law was, and it because of course the law of the land, was that you could

not have legally segregated schools. That public schools had to be open not on the basis of race

but on some other basis.

P: Maybe this would be a good time to ask you, given the time of the 1954 Supreme Court decision

and the fact that it created great upheaval in so many ways, do you think the outcome of that had a

lot to do with the final America=s examining public accommodations and employment and a variety

of other fronts where White supremacy was in effect and discrimination the order of the day. Do

you think there was some inspiration or some energy that came from the schools decision that









SRC -10 Morland, page 80

went on to impact other fronts. In other words, the 1954 Supreme Court decision was not just

about education. What did you think of that?

M: I think the 1954 decision was the great breakthrough. It touched America and democracy at its

heart. It touched it at its public schools and said these public schools cannot be forcefully

segregated. It=s not a question of whether even if they're equal as the Plessy v. Ferguson 1896

decision said and which was, I think, a tragic thing because it led the states that wanted to

segregate anything as long as they were equal. Of course, they were not equal or in some cases

they so overdid it in order to prove that things were equal. But I think that breakthrough led to the

recognition that if were going to have equal opportunity and equal treatment, we=ve got to open

up everything. We=ve got to open up restaurants, theaters, transportation, and all the other

aspects of public life, and to do it without regard to race.

P: So it was something of an influence on ?

M: It was more than an influence, it was experience that people so feared, but they realized well,

[desegregation] is going to be okay B integregation or desegregation, sometimes we differentiate

between those but I think it=s a mind a matter. It is a fact that if Blacks and Whites or whoever

can get to know each other as individuals and not through stereotypes which segregation would

require to do, then we can move together to a greater equality for all Americans, which is our ideal

after all.

P: You took other assignments from the Community Relations Service. One was in Louisiana and

where were some of the others?

M: One was in Arkansas.

P: One was in West Virginia?









SRC -10 Morland, page 81

M: In West Virginia, I went to White Sulphur Springs because Thurgood Marshall telephoned me and

asked me if I would go over and find out what was going on because they were having a lot of

trouble with integrating the schools, desegregating them, and my blessed president and dean, I

went to see them and said the NAACP has called on me to go, how is it going to be? They said

you go ahead if you can get your classes covered.

P: Who was the president at the time?

M: Bill Quillian, he=s still here. He became president almost the same time that I joined the faculty.

P: So that was really a request from the NAACP?

M: Yes.

P: How about other assignments? Were there notable events in the Louisiana or Arkansas

assignments?

M: These were I think a great thing for the federal government to do. It wasn=t well cram this down

your throats, it was look, if we sit down and talk about this and work at this, try to understand it

particularly from many angles, we can be successful and were here to enable you to do that.

This was appreciated in the places in Louisiana, the place called Houma had a three way

segregation of schools and the so-called Indians who were really a mixture of Black, White, and

Indian.

P: Was this in the north or south of Louisiana?

M: It was in southern Louisiana. They were put in separate schools and they didn't want that. Also,

there was a case I went to in Columbia, South Carolina, I went there for the Southern Regional

Council. They were taking what they called the... there was a mixed group and there was three

way segregation in that case.









SRC -10 Morland, page 82

P: What happened when you went there? What was your assignment and did you have some

colleagues with you or you went on your own?

M: Sometimes with a colleague, sometimes by myself. I went to Columbia, South Carolina by myself.

I had done my field study for my doctorate not far from Columbia so I was fairly familiar with

people in Columbia. I=m trying to think of the name of the ones who were put in a third school,

and I=m trying to get the chronology straight.

P: Wouldn=t be Creole?

M: No, that was in Louisiana.

P: The third in South Carolina? They had three-way also?

M: They claimed they were from a shipwreck and they were somewhat different from everybody else.

P: In southern South Carolina there were east Indians early on. Could they have them?

M: I think Indians were involved in that mixture and the Whites who were sort of outside of the group

and Black as well. Virginia has its colony called...

P: The Malungeons are one, Portuguese and Indian and African American.

M: When I first came to Lynchburg we called them the issues and they didn't like that at all, so

they're now called the Amherst Indians, but they are given equal treatment in schools because of

the ruling of 1954.

P: You=re Louisiana and Arkansas and Columbia, South Carolina visits, what kind of things did you

do when you went there? Pick one of those that would be interesting for us to hear and tell us

what you did when you went there, how long did it take?

M: Let=s take the case in Arkansas. I was asked to go there by the Community Relations Service. I

rode ahead to talk to the principal, to ask for an appointment to speak to him and they were

anxious to do something because they were having trouble.









SRC -10 Morland, page 83

P: What kind of trouble? What was your purpose of being assigned there?

M: The problem was integrating school and on what basis they would do it. There were some Blacks

that wanted no integration at all, as well as some Whites that didn't want integration of course.

There were two places I went to in Arkansas, one called El Dorado and not far from that was a

small town called Smackover.

P: What year would this have been?

M: About 1966. That the year actually I went to Hong Kong on a Fulbright, but I did this in the Spring

and I left Hong Kong in the fall. It was in the area of 1965, 1966, maybe 1966.

P: So you got there and you visited the superintendents of schools you say?

M: I talked to the mayor of each town; I talked to the principals of each of the schools involved; I talked

to teachers; I talked to groups of students; and I talked to people in the town and I found out that

one of the best ways to find people who had time on their hands was to go to a doctors or a

dentist=s office. Say I=m from outside and I heard this is happening, what=s your view of it, what

goes on? I think they were glad to get their minds off the coming dentistry.

P: And the old magazines in the office.

M: [Laugh] That=s right, the old magazines. They didn't have to read those. Most of them were very

cooperative and I wasn=t pushing them. I didn't have a pad or pencil, I had to rush back and try

to record everything in my mind that I could when I went back to the motel or wherever I was

staying. But this is a kind of pattern I followed in each town.

P: You described a public meeting at one occasion, on one of these visits. Am I recalling correctly?

M: Yes, there was a public meeting in which people who wanted to could come and talk about how

they felt about things.

P: Where was this one, this public meeting?









SRC -10 Morland, page 84

M: This was done in Arkansas.

P: One of those two towns.

M: Yes, one of those two towns.

P: They advertised that they were going to have a discussion about desegregation and people

showed up?

M: They wanted a community gathering about the schools, this was usually the way, how do we

strengthen our educational situation. But everybody knew that really the difficulty was with

integration.

P: Did you speak at some of those?

M: Not as a rule, I did not.

P: I saw one article that said an anthropologist came, and they were referring to you, in a public

meeting. Do you recall what that was?

M: This was in Jackson, Mississippi and I was working with the Southern Regional Council. The

women of Jackson, Mississippi, where I was, were determined that they were not going to have

their school disrupted. They were going ahead and have the schools desegregated. Interestingly,

it was a tactic that was purposely used because when the women would get involved and say

were not going to shut down our public schools like they did in Prince Edward County, were

going to hold on to them, the husbands going to work with other men would ask them what is it with

your wife getting involved? And he would say you=re married, can you do anything with your wife?

So the idea was that the women who, at that time, were not in the workforce outside of the home

had greater freedom of movement and the men who agreed with them actually had some

protection. They kept saying over and over if Mississippi is going to get anywhere at all, it=s got to

have strong public education and were not going to spoil our public education, this was the whole









SRC -10 Morland, page 85

thing. I did speak to a group that the women had invited at a schoolhouse I remember, at the

auditorium. It was a big crowd and I talked about integration and I talked about race, I talked about

American ideals, but I was told very quietly by the woman in whose home I was staying the Klu

Klux Klan=s in the back row and the White Citizens Council is all over the front row. So I kept an

eye on them and they kept an eye on me. In every case, I tried to be not confrontational.

P: What year was that meeting? That was in Jackson, and that was a Southern Regional Council

assignment.

M: That would be after 1954 and probably before 1964. It was in that period of time, the late 1950s

that I did a lot of my work, and the early 1960s.

P: So you really took assignments. You were a stringer for the NAACP, for the Southern Regional

Council, and then later on after the Civil Rights Act to the Community Relations Service of the

federal government. Did you take on similar assignments, community relations and inquiries about

community capacity to desegregate and to get the pulse?

M: There was one other group, the Potomac Institute invited me. As a matter of fact, they asked me

to do a booklet with them on Token Desegregation and Beyond. I think you=ve seen a copy of

that. It was done in conjunction with B=nai B=rith, which is a Jewish organization, and they paid

me a certain stipend to just sit down and look at all that was going on and look at the extent of

desegregation, what areas were resistant, what areas were not resistant, what caused resistance,

and what contributed to acceptance of the law. That=s what I tried to do.

P: During this period of 1954 to 1964, you were really doing community studies, little mini studies

throughout the South for these four organizations: the Potomac Institute, NAACP Legal Defense

Fund, the SRC, and the Community Relations Service. You were their handyman in the field,

right?









SRC -10 Morland, page 86

M: I was one.

P: Who were some of the others?

M: Mac Seagrist was from South Carolina and the head of the department at Louisville was also with

me, and then of course LeRoy Collins had a staff once the Selma group developed. So there were

several of us who were involved, who saw each other. It was hard to balance your teaching

position and your counseling of students, they came first. On the other hand, the administrators at

my school said this is a historic occasion and you can help so well do everything we can to make

sure you are able to do this without too much criticism. We got a lot of criticism. I was in President

Quillian=s office, he had a very thick folder in his hand and he put another letter, he said Morland, I

just got another complaint about you.

P: From parents or from citizens?

M: From alumni and parents and from people anywhere, but mainly those that had some connection

with the schools.

P: How about in the community? Did you run into trouble or threats or any form of intimidation?

M: A great deal of intimidation, but this is another story. It came later. It was the result of my being

with the Southern Regional Council in Atlanta and the decision we made there that we can=t be

effective having just one office in Atlanta. We need to have every state with the Community

Relations Council. So we formed on in Virginia.

P: Community Relations Council.

M: That=s right. It was done at Union University. I can remember the people on the board. We had a

number of different meetings and talked about what was going on in Virginia.

P: What year was that that that decision was made at SRC?









SRC -10 Morland, page 87

M: That decision was made in... I=m not sure. The thing that interferes with it is the year long stay in

Hong Kong between 1966 and 1967. I can remember returning from Hong Kong and speaking to

the ministerial association here.

P: Didn=t the Virginia Council on Human Relations originate earlier than 1966? Much earlier.

M: I=m not sure, I would have to check.

P: Did every state have one?

M: Every state in the South had one. Then we decided well, you can=t have one just in the state, you

need one in the community.

P: Localities.

M: So I said okay, I have some friends and well form one in Lynchburg. We had about seventy,

eighty people. We thought we could meet in churches and schools. No place would permit us to

meet except the Unitarian Church here in Lynchburg. I can remember there=s a history of the

Unitarian Church which gives a good long section to the Lynchburg chapter of Human Relations.

P: The Richmond-Petersburg chapter encountered the same thing, but there were a few Black

localities, Black sites that were allowed to hold meetings, but the public accommodations



M: I wrote for permission to the head of the Unitarian Church and said it looks like nobody else is

going to have us, will you let us meet in your church? They took a vote of the membership and the

membership was united, no dissent. We said what about heat and light we want to take care of

those [things]. No, well take care of them for you and well allow you to serve refreshments after

the meeting. [End of Tape 4, side A]

P: [You] were talking about the Lynchburg chapter...









SRC -10 Morland, page 88

M: Lynchburg chapter of Virginia Council on Human Relations. We had decided that just having a

center in Richmond B and we were very active because I can remember we were invited to

respond to Governor Lindsey Almond=s speech that he was going to make, and we assumed it

would be 100 percent Massive Resistance. But his speech, as we waited to respond, was quite

different. He said we can no longer be out of step with the rest of the nation. We cannot have

Massive Resistance prevent schools from being desegregated. Harry Byrd never forgave him for

that.

P: Was this 1959? When was this? Because before that, he had gone along with the Massive

Resistance.

M: Oh yes, yes he had, all the time. As a matter of fact, I have some correspondence with Lindsey

Almond.

P: You do?

M: I do, and I congratulated him. I told him what a courageous thing it was for him to do. What they

wanted to move to was not required schooling for everybody, they could just go to the school if

they wanted to. I remember my response from the Virginia Council on Human Relations is that that

would mean that the children who needed schooling most of all probably would not get it. It had to

be required. I went to my mill village experience to say how many of the children had dropped out

of school in order to go into the mill and had not been able to fulfill their potential. We did things on

a statewide basis like that. Then we decided every community that wished to should form a

chapter of Virginia Council on Human Relations. So I gathered about eight people at the Lodge of

the Fisherman where you were the other night.

P: Was it called that back then? Was it called the Lodge of the Fisherman?









SRC -10 Morland, page 89

M: Yes, it was called Lodge of the Fisherman. I can remember sitting around that table and about five

Blacks and about five Whites. We agreed that we should have a group here.

P: Do you remember the year that was?

M: I=m no tsure.

P: The Lodge of Fisherman=s right there on Rivermont Avenue here in Lynchburg.

M: Yes, it=s off Boonsboro actually because Rivermont becomes Boonsboro. It has the multiple

acres that the Cosby family turned into a camp for inner city children, a day camp, and you didn't

get to meet Bev Cosby. He died about three weeks ago, wonderful person. I said were going to

need some offices, who will be willing to be president of this? They all turned to me and said well

you got us together, you be president. So I was president the first year; Bev Cosby the second

year; Virgil Wood, a Black, the third year.

P: Do you recall the year you did this, this chapter, foundation, formation?

M: I would have to look it up to be sure. Those dates slip me.

P: There were other chapters in the state, and then other states had their local chapters and they

because something of a network and lots of people later in the 1960s began to connect and lots of

good research came out of the Southern Regional Council and you were deeply involved in that

weren't you?

M: Yes.

P: You were one of their most well used researchers weren=t you.

M: Right. You helped in that survey that became a part of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. I=m not positive

what part, I=d have to look at the whole act to see, and I=d have to look at the study that we came

up with, the results of the survey.









SRC -10 Morland, page 90

P: You published several booklets and papers associated with that were produced and distributed by

Southern Regional Council. They were widely used, weren=t they, for planning and strategy and

so forth?

M: I=d like to think they were. Some of my students from Atlanta and from Texas said I saw this

pamphlet of yours. I think I=m getting behind or ahead, I=m not sure which, but I was asked to go

to Texas B this would be before 1964, before desegregation was required by law B to find out how

San Antonio and Galveston and Corpus Christi desegregated their lunch counters. So I went down

and ate in every lunch counter, [San Antonio] I=d go, and the other.

P: San Antonio and Galveston and...

M: Corpus Christi. I would ask the manager of each of them how did you do this? I would talk to the

customers who were coming in how do you feel about eating at the counter and desegregating the

counter. I wrote up that.

P: The Southern Regional Council gave you that assignment?

M: They did.

P: So you wrote this up and its intention was to instruct other communities?

M: Exactly. What each of these communities said was you know if one of us desegregates were

going to lose a lot of customers, but if we all desegregate at the same time, the customers won=t

have anywhere else to go and that's exactly the way it worked out, that's what happened. A lot

of people were angry, those who were regular customers, but some of them said well we have to

eat with Mexicans anyhow so it=s not all that bad.

P: This raises a question about the nature of changes in racial relationships, especially during the

desegregation period. Was there a critical mass point where segregation could be dismantled

based on everybody getting together and not having to take personal blame for desegregating if









SRC -10 Morland, page 91

you were a restaurant so that there was a kind of a point if you could get everybody together, then

nobody would be blamed. It suggests something that segregation didn't have an underpinning of

ideology that was so fixed that it was kind of a facade or teetering structure that all you had to do

was push hard, everybody push hard together, that would fall over. Does that resonate with you as

you looked at how changed happened in the South, especially with public accommodations in

schools?

M: There were individuals who said were not being fair, were not giving equal opportunity, were

not providing equal facilities and it=s holding us back. We are, as a region, hurting ourselves.

We=re not using all of our talent. We=re spending so much time duplicating facilities rather than

trying to forget about these racial and ethnic differences and just move ahead and do what needs

to be done, but they were in a minority. I think in my studies, people realized it was going to

happen, but they were going to prevent it as long as they could, as long as they could breathe.

P: What proportion of people do you think wanted to prevent it versus the proportion that might just be

prepared to go either way versus the proportion that were pushing hard for desegregation?

M: I think the majority wanted to maintain segregation. They responded very positively to George

Wallace=s declaration of segregation today, tomorrow, and forever. The people who were in

college and had a college education, those who had had contact with those of other races B and

this happened on both sides of the divide B they wanted to move ahead and get rid of all the

stigma, get rid of the necessity of having people sit in certain places on the street cars or the

busses, or go to schools in terms of what race or ethnic background they had. These were, I would

say, in a minority without any question. We were in a minority in Lynchburg, for example. We had

integrated meetings, we could not meet in any other place. We tried to have our annual dinner at

the YMCA here, and the [YMCA] has generally been pretty open I thought, but I was told









SRC -10 Morland, page 92

confidentially, were just getting ready to have a big drive to get our funds raised and if we start

integrating, or if we have you all down here for dinner, it will ruin our campaign. The people in

churches in would say, it=s all right with me, but there are so many other people in here that would

be upset and we just soon you not meet here. But the Unitarians, very different. They welcomed

us very warmly and they came into the group in a disproportionate number. Our group of the

Lynchburg chapter of the Virginia Council on Human Relations was made up primarily of teachers

from Randolph-Macon, from Sweet Briar, and from Lynchburg College.

P: There was no Liberty University at the time.

M: No Liberty University at the time, no. Thomas Old Baptist was founded in 1956, the same time our

little church was founded, it has 20,000 members now. We=re still around 150 or 200, but they

were not involved.

P: Now in other states, did you see some uniformities from state to state during your travels and your

studies in the states such as Arkansas and Mississippi and Louisiana and Virginia? Was the

process of desegregation similar, or are there distinctive things to be said about...

M: It would require more studying than I have. With the law having changed, the law itself is

instructed. This is one of the things we used to talk about when we talked about segregation. If

people grow up in a segregated situation where it is required by law, it has the sanctity of law, then

it=s going to be followed, it has to be followed. You have to sit in the White section of the bus

which was in the front section, or the back section if it were in the street cars. Diane McWhorter

who wrote Carry Me Home to Birmingham spoke of Whites sitting in the backs of the streetcars. I

grew up sitting in the back and never felt any humiliation or depravation because of it.

P: But the back was not the stigmatized portion of the bus, was it? Whereas in Richmond, the back of

the bus was a stigmatized person and no self-respecting White would be seen back there.









SRC -10 Morland, page 93

M: No one under the law could go back there if he were White, and no one under the law if you were

Black could go in the front part of the bus unless there were so many Blacks that they were taking

up seats and they could move toward the front with those seats, or so many Whites they could

move toward the back. In Birmingham, there was not a rigid sectioning. They had movable, I think

I mentioned this before, White this side, colored only. If there were more Blacks who needed seats

and they were in the front, they would move those plaques right on up so the Blacks could sit in

them.

P: Let=s go back now to the 1940s after WWII. You found yourself in graduate school at UNC

Chapel Hill. Remind me again what year that you were there at Chapel Hill?

M: I was there from 1947 to 1949. I spent one year taking classes, twelve months, one year in the

field of South Carolina, and I had enough of my courses at Yale Divinity School and I had taken

some on the side at Yale University that counted so that I completed my doctorate in two years.

P: My, my. That=s a record.

M: Interestingly, John Gillin who was my supervisor, an anthropologist, promised me $100 bonus if I

could get my dissertation typed up and ready by September. Margaret and I, in her home, had a

typewriter each and in those days they were manual typewriters and when you got to the end it

would ding so you=d know it was over and you could flip it back. We stayed almost round the

clock on those typewriters. We were determined, we needed desperately that $100, but next door

to them lived a very prominent lawyer.

P: Next door to who?

M: Next door to Margaret where we were doing the doing the typing. This was her home in Mountain

Brook in Birmingham.

P: I see.









SRC -10 Morland, page 94

M: Frances Hare was next door as probably the leading lawyer in Birmingham. One way or the other

he found out that we were doing this typing B this was before we had air conditioning, the windows

were up B and he said he would lie there and try to sleep and he kept hearing this ding, ding and

he just thought he was going mad, he just couldn't figure what it really was so he was greatly

relieved. But we got that finished for Gillin in time.

P: And you got the $100?

M: We got the $100.

P: What a treasure chest you took off with you. So you had gone back home to Birmingham to finish

some of the dissertation details?

M: I had notes and we just had to write it up as a dissertation.

P: You say we, it sounds like you had some good assistance.

M: I had first rate assistance with Margaret.

P: She, being a literary... I=ve forgotten the word. I think it=s an Italian word that speaks of talented

literary figure. So she was a budding writer herself, right?

M: And also had spent six months in York, South Carolina with me and as I said earlier, was able to

attend bridal parties and visit with women and get to know them in a way that a male participant

and observer could not do. So it was done together and that comes out very nicely in this

Southern Cultures article that John Shelton Reed came to interview us about.

P: So you finished the dissertation and graduated and were a fresh PhD in anthropology. What year

was that?

M: I actually was awarded the degree in 1950 and Margaret held back on her masters in English until

1951. But I was given a position by a colleague at UNC. He had been teaching at William and









SRC -10 Morland, page 95

Mary and he had come to complete his degree, and so he invited us to go to William and Mary

which we did. That was my first teaching job and, beginning in the Fall of 1949.

P: But you got the degree in 1950?

M: Yes. It was virtually completed, but the committee could not sit down with me and quiz me about

that particular part of my study.

P: Going back to that period between 1945 and 1950 where you were in graduate school and so forth,

let me pain a scenario. Blacks and other minorities had served in the military in WWII. They had

gone abroad to fight for democracy and prove their patriotism and courage. They were fighting

fascism and fighting for democracy. When the war was over and you had this keen interest in race

relations at that point, I mean you were very sensitive to these relationships at this point, and you

looked around the South particularly, across the country, what is it you saw among minorities?

Was there a rising tide of expectations among Blacks and other minorities that was later to feed

into the intensified civil rights activities? What did you see at that time?

M: I know a lot of us who were White felt that we were hypocritical on the one hand, and asking and

recruiting and drafting Blacks to fight a war for democracy, but not giving them the benefits of

democracy. Whenever our groups came together both White and mixed say, this was expressed

in no uncertain terms. Whenever I had a chance to speak, which I did pretty often, I talked about

the contradictory situation we had in this country that we were fighting fascism and communism.

We were fighting totalitarian countries, but we ourselves were not true to our beliefs or to our

democracy and we were hurting ourselves because were wasting talent of Blacks and of Whites by

trying to maintain this separation.









SRC -10 Morland, page 96

P: Did you see any difference in Black=s attitudes toward returning to this country and to

segregation? Did you see any rising expectations among them as you traverse these communities

and so forth?

M: The difficulty is the Blacks with whom Whites were associated tended to be in the lower classes,

low income, low education. I think again the leadership of Blacks came from those who were

college students, those who were from higher income families, those at Miles College, for example,

in Birmingham would be among the ones that would be disturbed, but of course some of us who

were White were just as disturbed. I didn't see any kind of rising tide of expectation among the

Blacks. They had been so accustomed to the demands of segregation that I don=t think [they]

thought about it much one way or the other. I think at time they would get angry, but most of the

time they realized well we=ve got to live here and this is the way things are so we follow it.

P: Your association with Black leadership to the extent that you were to have that opportunity, did you

see any changes in their expectations now that there was this body of experience in WWII?

Meanwhile, wasn't it 1848 that the military was desegregated by Harry Truman?

M: While I was in college, and this was 1934, 1938, also on up to 1941 when America went to war,

Blacks were highly displeased with their enforced cast-like separation. This was before they were

asked to join in the war. They proved themselves and one of the things they wanted to do was to

show that they could be as brave and as good soldiers as anybody, and they proved this. A lot of

Whites said it doesn't matter what the color of the man is next to me as long as he=s helping me

in this effort, that's what counts most. I=m sure the rising tide expectation was there, but it didn't

take form until the laws were changed and until the NAACP Legal Defense Fund under Thurgood

Marshall forced the desegregation of schools, forced the reversal of Plessy v. Ferguson, and then

there was an even greater set of expectations. It=s going to happen in the schools, it=s going to









SRC -10 Morland, page 97

happen everywhere that we Blacks are going to have the kind of education, the kinds of

opportunities, the kind of treatment that everybody else has.

P: Now it=s 1950, the fall of 1950 and you find yourself with Margaret, married and moving to

Williamsburg, Virginia and to William and Mary, second oldest institution of higher education with

grand traditions. Tell me what it was like when you arrived there?

M: We were given housing on Motoka Court in little boxes that had been moved up from worn out

and used by the army in North Carolina no longer needed. So we had a pot-bellied stove in the

front room and that was our central heating, it was all the heating we had. We had wooden tubs for

a sink, I remember mushrooms growing out of them, but we had good fertile ground in the back so

we planted corn and potatoes and peas and other things. I did get my students to ask these

questions of the Blacks and of the Whites. They did a kind of survey and one of the questions was

why do you think we have separate schools? This was in 1951 I guess. The Whites would say

because we are smarter and we are better and the Blacks are inferior. Blacks would say were

here because the Whites think were inferior.

P: This was a community survey done by your students in sociology and anthropology. Who was the

president at the time? Do you remember?

M: John Pomphard at William and Mary.

P: And you were in a department of what size?

M: There were three teachers all together. I was the sociologistlanthropologist, I was the

anthropology part, and Wayne Kinodle was head of the department and he was the one in North

Carolina that got me to go up there. He=s still at William and Mary, he=s retired of course. Jack

Cantena, who later went to John=s Hopkins, very, very capable and able in the area of statistics

and in the area of family sociology.









SRC -10 Morland, page 98

P: Was it called the department of sociology and anthropology?

M: We were sociology and anthropology.

P: It was totally segregated at the time, was it not?

M: In terms of faculty, administration, and students. The people who kept the place clean and the

yards mowed and all were Blacks in every case, but you=re right, it was totally segregated.

P: William and Mary was like UVA and Virginia Tech was the principle, maybe Mary Washington,

among the public universities were the elite or prestige places to go for Virginia families, were they

not?

M: Yes. Washington and Lee would be right up there as a school, a tuition supported school. For

women, Holland=s and Randolph-Macon Women=s College and Sweet Briar were also very

highly rated, but very expensive for individuals.

P: I was thinking of the public school, public colleges, but it was as you may recall, a small proportion

of Virginians of college age went to college in those days, very much like Mississippi. In fact,

statistics showed that Mississippi was the only one that had fewer proportion of their college age

students in college than Virginia.

M: What year was that?

P: In the early 1950s right on into the time when there were higher education reform in Virginia. So

what quality students did you have and what classes did they come from, social classes or income

levels?

M: They came from upper income levels and they came from many other states as well as Virginia.

There was a differential tuition rate, of course non-Virginians would have a higher rate, but William

and Mary wanted to have students from states other than Virginia. They wanted them in Virginia,

but also they wanted them elsewhere.









SRC -10 Morland, page 99

P: What do you think were the most important contributions William and Mary was making at the time,

and what were some of the projects you got into. Did you do any studies that you thought were

significant while you were there? And how long were you there?

M: Four years, 1949-1953. I came to Randolph-Macon in 1953. We did some studies in sociology

class, but I really didn't get into those until later. There=s a whole book of them over there that

my colleague at Randolph-Macon had written up and published with tributes to the two of us, two

main ones, in sociology and anthropology at Randolph-Macon.

P: I=m speaking of William and Mary now. You=re speaking of later?

M: I=m speaking of a later time, yes. We did some at William and Mary. Some participant

observation I remember, studies of... Eastern State Hospital was there. We did some studies of

the attendants and the administration, but this was just an attempt to get our students to have

some experience in actually gathering data in order to show the kinds of steps that were required,

the difficulty, the use of measuring instruments that had to be very carefully pretested. But we

didn't do a great many studies that could be written up I would say, except as term papers for

those in the research class primarily.

P: Were you students typical of the day? Sort of prejudiced and conforming to the prevailing racial

attitudes of that time?

M: Prejudice is a pretty hard thing to get at and to measure. Tthey would generally reflect the notion

that it=s better to be separate, if you bring in Blacks you=ll pull the standards down, this was one

of the lack of information [that] hurt a move toward integration, and again the law was on the side

of segregation.

P: Did you find some students that were independent of this cultural norm and proved to be stars in

your mind? Did any of them have careers in the social sciences that you came to know about?









SRC -10 Morland, page 100

M: From William and Mary I=m not sure. From Randolph-Macon yes, a number of them who got their

doctorates in sociology and in anthropology and are teaching in various schools.

P: So sociology and anthropology may not have been an important occupation in those days to

students at William and Mary?

M: Probably not. We were a legitimate major and interesting how students choose majors. I know

one of the deans was quoted as saying you=ve tried these other things, try sociology, see if you

like that, because the person obviously wasn=t getting along so well in other places. But our

students were reasonable hard working. We had a beautiful campus, a whole lot of tourists.

Williamsburg had just begun to blossom with the company which was building central Williamsburg

on Ducaclosta Street where the school began and which it moved on west of the city.

P: You once told me many years ago that you enjoyed a very generous salary there. Do you recall

what salary you were making?

M: My salary when I went from University of North Carolina the first year was $2,800. The next year it

was raised to $2,900.

P: By 1953, you=d become a wealthy man I assume.

M: About $3,000, but I was offered $4,500 at Randolph-Macon.

P: You moved from William and Mary to Randolph-Macon in 1953?

M: For two reasons, I was pushed and I was pulled. Pushed because there was a scandal in the

athletic department. The Board of Visitors said to the president, we want a football team that wins

more than it loses, so leave Rube McCray who was a coach alone and let him build a team. He

went out and recruited. It was found out later he falsified their records so they could get in to

William and Mary and I had some of those students and they were not inclined to be scholarly at

all, but they were good football players. Also, the coach had a mole in the registrar=s office who




Full Text

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SRC -10 Morland, page 1 P: Here we are in Lynchburg, Virginia on February 20, 2002. I = m here with John Kenneth Morland, former professor and chair of the department of sociology and anthropology at Randolph-Macon Women = s College in Lynchburg. We thought we = d have a little chat about events and people in his life. We = re on tape one. Welcome to your own home Ken. M: Thank you, it = s good to be here, it = s good to have you here. P: Ken, I know you were originally from Al abama. Could you tell me where you were born and something about your early life. M: I was born in Huntsville, Alabama, which was a sleepy, small town of 8,000 when I lived there. Later, it became one of the centers for the space development, so it = s not the same town that it was. But when I was there, I liked Huntsville very much. I could walk to town, there was a swimming pool that our family could buy into and use downtown. I could walk to the elementary school I attended. They tell me (one of the earlie st memories) [that] I grew pretty fast and ate pretty well. So the first day I went to kindergarten, they made me a lunch, but I didn = t know any better so I ate the lunch on the way to kindergarten. When I got there, everybody else had food at noon, I felt put upon. P: What was life like in Huntsville at t hat time, and what years were you there? M: I was there from 1916 to 1923. My father moved to Birmingham with six children. I have an older sister, two older brothers, a younger sister, and a y ounger brother, there were six of us. My father wanted to be sure we all went to college and Birmingham Southern was in Birmingham, so he moved his practice in 1923 and left Huntsville and moved south in Birmingham. P: That was how far away? M: It was, in those days, a ride in an old automobile about three or four hours. I can remember being bundled up on the back seat with a lap robe, and we had on the Eisenglass , we didn = t have real

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SRC -10 Morland, page 2 glass in the car windows, in any part of the car. That could be put up and you could keep somewhat warm, but I remember it was a cold, cold drive so we must have moved in the middle of the year. P: How old were you when you moved to Birmingham? M: I was about eight or nine. I went to the thir d grade, but since I had come from a small town, they sent me back half a year. P: What was your school like in Huntsville? Was it a good school? It was segregated of course, wasn = t it? M: Sure. Everything [was]. But we didn = t think of it as being segregated particularly, it was just the way life was. P: It was natural as the sunset. M: It was a traditionally built school in that it was a rectangular building with about six [to] eight classrooms. One of the main things I remember was the fire escape. There was a metal pipe, big one, that students could get in at the top and slide on down to the bottom. When school was closed, we couldn = t get in, but we could get inside and make our way up to the very top and slide down, which we did often in the afternoons. P: Was it a challenging place? Did you have any idea you had academic capabilities or inclinations up through the third grade there in Huntsville? M: Not really, no. I always enjoyed school, I always enjoyed studying. P: By the time you got to Birmingham, you finished high school there? M: I finished high school in Birmingham. P: Did your consciousness about the way things were around you change much during that period?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 3 M: Not particularly. Birmingham was much bigger and the segregation there was more obvious than it was in Huntsville. I can remember riding a str eetcar, this was before there were busses, and the conductor was in the middle of the car and the Whites had to sit in the back of the streetcar and the Blacks sat in the front of the streetcar. Som ehow, we never felt deprived because we were in the back and had a sandbox back there that we could play in because sometimes they had to put stuff on the wheels, tracks, so that there would be movement. P: Was that common throughout Alabama to have the segregation reversed on the common conveyances and so forth? M: All the streetcars that were there, there were streetcars in Huntsville the same way and in Montgomery. Mobile... I think they were all the same. P: So the Blacks were confined to the front, though. The law held that they had to sit in the front. M: And we had to sit in the back. What they had if there was an overflow one way or the other is petitions that they could slip into the back of the seat and on one side it said White only and on the other side it said colored only. If there were not enough seats for the colored and there were some in the White section, they would move these pet itions down so that the colored could all have seats. P: What other aspects of city life did you notice at the time? You were now in your teens. Were you becoming aware of what race relations were like and what did your family have to say about it, and your church? Where did you go to church? M: My mother was Episcopalian, my father wa s Methodist. We attended mainly the Methodist Episcopal Church South. My mother died when I was five years old so I don = t remember her so very well, but here was my father, a general pr actioner, with six children all under the age of fourteen. How he managed, I = m not sure. Growing up in society, you learn to do what you = re

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SRC -10 Morland, page 4 supposed to do. For example, there was never any question about sitting in the back of the street car. Later when they had busses, Whites sat in the front or I usually stood because I was rather late in getting the bus and there was never a seat available. I = ve heard the Rosa Parks story. If Blacks were already seated, they never had to get up and give a seat to a White, never. P: You never saw that. M: I never experienced it. I stood because there were these petitions and if that all was filled back there, you stayed on your side and stood up. Same wa s true if colored, if Blacks, if negroes had all of their seats taken, they would stand up. If there were more in the White section, they could move those petitions and Blacks could sit down. P: They were temporary separators. M: Yes they were movable. P: The driver would move them up and so forth. M: That = s right. P: Whereas in Richmond, if they moved back it was so rt of informal, you just had to get up so it was a little bit different. What other aspects of life there... M: Let me say one other thing about the bus. I went from the high school and the elementary school to the boys YMCA. I went there every afternoon. Then I would catch a bus, street car, until busses came. Our house was in the north side of town on Norwood Boulevard it was called. The streetcar ended there and it had to be turned around. Then the bus did the same thing. By the time I would get on the bus or the streetcar going to Norwood , all the seats were always taken, I always had to stand. P: What other aspects of life there did you take not e of back then? What years were these? This was in the 1920s?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 5 M: In the 1920s. P: Were you a budding sociologist in any way at the time? M: No. Actually, my major in college was chemistry wi th a minor in math. My first job was to teach at a boys school in Tennessee and I taught math, was di rector of all athletics, and in charge of dormitories. P: What school was that? M: This was Webb School. P: Where was it? M: It was just south of Nashville in a town called Bell Buckle. P: What year was that? M: That was 1938 to 1939, 1939 to 1940. P: Let = s go back to Birmingham. You played sports in high school? M: Always at the [YMCA]. I did not play for t he school team. It was a massive jam-crammed high school. They had not built additional schools and as a matter of fact, all White high school students had to go to the first high school year at the same school while they were building two additional high schools. P: When you finished high school, you went off to Birmingham Southern and you were a day student? Did you live in a dorm? M: Everybody was. This was the depth of the depressi on. I can remember going to this first year of high school playing all the way through Birmingham and First Avenue South and First Avenue North tend to separate one part from the other, but I can remember going on the streetcar and seeing all those stores closed. I think Birm ingham had one of the highest unemployment rates of any city. It was a one industry town really owned by TCI, Tennessee Coal and Iron, which was part

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SRC -10 Morland, page 6 of U.S. Steel. U.S. Steel kept its Pittsburgh plants open, but they shut all the Birmingham ones. I can remember my father, he could collect very little. He would come home sometimes with a chicken under his arm and said this is a $50 chicken. P: Did you see evidence of poverty and homele ssness and so forth in and around Birmingham or other parts of Alabama? M: We were all poor and we just thought that wa s the way life was, but I do remember people coming to the door and asking for food. They said just a slice of bread or two, and said I = ll do anything you want me to around the house. I = ll paint, I = ll do anything. But all we would do would be to go back and cut off some bread and give it to them. We never turned anybody away. P: This was the early 1930s, just after the... M: The crash came in 1929, so it was [1930s]. I was in high school the entire four years of deep depression, and I went to Birmingham S outhern in 1934. I graduated in 1938. P: You went to Birmingham Southern. You took a chemistry curriculum and other things. I know you played basketball there for the college, did you? M: I wanted to stay. I was in the middle of the y ear so I was happy to stay at the high school and do a post-graduate course. I hadn = t had typing and I hadn = t had some physics courses and other things that I wanted, but after about a month under Roosevelt, there was a program called the Federal Emergency Relief Act, FERA. They chose about fifteen of us they thought could make it in college, and all the teachers, everybody said go, go, go. I didn = t really want to go. I would have preferred going in the fall, but I went to Southern about six weeks late in the semester. It was six miles at least from my house to Birmingham Sout hern and I took the streetcar there everyday and then came back home, but we did not have dormitories, we had only day students. P: It was all White at the time?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 7 M: All White in terms of students and in terms of teachers and coaches, but all Black in terms of the people who took care of the basketball court and the football field and the classrooms and the like. P: The labor force. M: That = s right. P: What happened to you in college there? What kind of professors were there, what were they saying to you? Was there any growing awareness of race relations in your experience there? M: Not in college, no. Neither wa s there in high school. Southerners B I don = t know whether this was true of you or not, but it certainly was of us B were under the illusion that separation of the races was a good thing and that the colored were happy that way and we were happy our way. That was the thing that justifi ed, it was natural that you be s eparated. On the one hand, we were separated, but on the other hand, some of the most intimate and the closest persons we had were Blacks who did our cooking and who took care of the house. My sister, baby sister who had just been born was nursed by a Black woman and t hat was considered proper, it was okay. P: So if I had interviewed you back then, you woul d have reflected these attitudes and values at the time? M: Had I been asked about them I would have. It was like almost anything else. You wouldn = t question why boys dress differently from girls. You wouldn = t question why boys had some names, girls had another name. You wouldn = t question why in the tallest building in Birmingham, the Coma building, elevators were segregated going up, but coming down you could ride any one you wanted to. There was one elevator going up that was for Blacks only, but you could ride any elevator down you wanted to. P: Can you recall religious life in the community? Di d you have any contact with Blacks at all in other aspects?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 8 M: Not in the area of religion, no. That was quite separate. Not only separate by race, but separate in terms of how people thought and interpreted the Bibl e, say. Some were fundamentalistic, my church was never that way. We were qui te open to traditional Christianity, but not... P: What church did you go to there? M: Again, some people have said that Sunday morn ing is the most segregated hour of the week, but that is understandable because the two institutions that Blacks controlled completely were their churches and their cemeteries. So outstandi ng people were ministers of Blacks and outstanding Blacks were funeral directors. They were the top professions that Blacks held. P: Outside of religion, there was no sports competition at all between Whites and Blacks? M: Sometimes in the neighborhood if the neighborhoods we re close, we played softball or hardball, we played pick up basketball, but it was nothing formal. P: What other aspects of life would you say were memorable, like employment, the job opportunities? What did the picture look like there? M: Growing up in the depression and graduating in 1938 t here were very, very few jobs available to college graduates. If you were going into a professi on of course you would have to go from college into a graduate school. I finished Birmingham Southern in 1938 and then had the two years at Webb School. I made $100 a month for nine months a year and saved most of that so I could go to graduate school. P: So you went off after you graduated, you went off to Tennessee. Had you traveled much before out of state? What kind of vista had you seen? I know later in life you = ve been all over the world, but in those days... M: My older brother was with the YMCA and he organiz ed trips. Those trips, one of them that I went to I remember we went in a truck that was outfitt ed so that the boys could sit on either side of it and

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SRC -10 Morland, page 9 we could put all of our equipment in the middle of it. We went to Chicago and en route, we would see an open field and we would drive the truck over, t hey would drive the truck over there, and we would take out our equipment and set it up and sleep for the night. When we went to Chicago, we went to the [YMCA] and opened up our equipment in the gymnasium because we couldn = t afford to go to a hotel or the like, but we always stayed at [YMCAs]. This was during the World = s Fair, I think that was in 1933, 1934. So we went from Chicago on up into Canada again camping out all the way. Went to Toronto and Quebec. We came down through Maine and I can remember going and swimming off the coast of Maine. I can still feel the cold it was so piercing. P: You were about what age at this time? M: I was late high school and I helped with some of the trips. My brother took trips every summer and one time he went to Cuba, I didn = t get there, didn = t get to go. We took turns. All of us couldn = t go at the same time. My sisters didn = t go on those trips, girls didn = t go. P: While you were out on those trips, you saw behavior and people who weren = t like those you knew in Alabama. Did this stimulate any of your thinking about comparisons between cultures or anything like that? M: Speech patters were different. I can remember going into a five and ten cent store at the time and I asked for school supplies and they didn = t know what I was talking about so I finally learned to ask for school supplies and then I made it all right. I noticed those kinds of differences. Southerners were teased because of their pronunciati on and slow way of talking that many of us grow up with. P: But this did not alert you in any way to t he realities of segregation? That segregation can be unnatural in other places? M: Again, I saw no colored in the YMCAs that I went into.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 10 P: So they were segregated even in the North at the time. M: They had separate institutions. P: Separate YMCAs. M: Yeah, a separate life. Life was a little more separate in the North than it was in the South. P: Yes, because residences were closer t ogether in the southern neighborhoods sometimes. M: In the southern neighborhoods, but also you had Blacks who came into Whites homes and they were there as really part of the family in many ways, although they always knew their place and we knew our place. P: Were there any limits on the behavior set on their labor. Not so much in your home, but maybe other homes. For example, use of dishes or to lerance of taking things from the household. Did you ever have any occasion to observe that kind of thing. M: No, we never had anything like that. I guess so metimes they took food and we thought that would be alright. P: In some places, as you know, dishes had to be separated among... M: Oh that, no, we didn = t see that. P: Was it kind of a genteel society there among t he middle classes? How would you describe their approach to race [relations]? M: I = m not sure it would be called genteel. We were sort of middle income, on the lower end of the income scale, but we never felt B I = m thinking of Huntsville and I = m thinking of initially being in Birmingham. We did not know where the wealthy peopl e were or how they lived. That was pretty much separate. P: So there were class distinctions as well.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 11 M: Certainly there were basic income distinctions and the limited incomes would be reflected in having homes that were more luxurious. I always had a paper route and I went to some homes that were pretty gorgeous I remember. P: After graduating from college, you went off to T ennessee. What did you find there in your new job? You spent two years there. M: I had to learn a great many sports activities that I never had to deal with before. Basketball was my major field and touch football and tackle as well. Bu t I had to learn how to throw a discus. I went out behind the gym when I didn = t have a class at Webb school and put my book down with it = s illustrations and then would pick up the discus and throw it. I did the same thing with the javelin. As I look back on it, that was very, very dangerous to have that javelin throw. It = s a wonder we didn = t hurt somebody in the process. P: How about in the classroom and with your students and even outside the classroom in the community and with your students. Did you have any major discoveries? M: Our classrooms at Webb School were all one r oom arrangements with a pot-bellied stove in the middle. P: Was this a private school? M: It was a private school, yes. P: The students, were they advantaged? M: Mostly somewhat advantaged, they would have to be to go there. P: Was this a marked time at all in your growth and development? Were you still kind of cruising as you had been in high school and college with discoveries about race relations. M: I had responsibilities. Our students would sometime s try to slip off. As a matter of fact, one of them was caught because in Murfreesboro, Tennessee which wasn = t so very away had a picture

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SRC -10 Morland, page 12 on the front page of a dance and he was on the front page when he was supposed to be in dormitory. Mr. Webb called me in and told me that I had to be stricter. What he did was to get the window, he slipped out the window and friends pi cked him up and drove him to Murfreesboro. P: So it was a residential school and you had dorm responsibilities. M: I had that responsibility. Checking all the r ooms to be sure they were neat, that they didn = t have bootleg liquor or something hidden. P: Bootleg liquor was available in the area? M: Bootleg liquor was, yes. P: Prohibition was over by this time, is that right? M: Yes. P: Did you find you liked teaching then? Did that come upon you? M: I liked teaching very, very much. P: Did you discover that there? M: Being in the [YMCA] and going to [YMCA] camp every summer, you had to do a lot of teaching in terms of some of the youngsters did not know how to swim. I was lifeguard and also the one that would put them through the various phases to bec ome lifeguards. In a way, you were teaching and the youngsters had to learn to live with others in pretty close quarters, and sometimes you had to take them aside and tell them some of the thi ngs they were doing were obnoxious or something and they just had to quit it. It was, I guess, discip linary more than anything else at camp, but in a way it was teaching and [I] always felt a triumph if a child could not swim and didn = t learn to swim. A child couldn = t dive at all and then learn to do all kinds of dives off the diving board, which I would demonstrate to them at the time. P: Did you get any inkling of where you were headed by being there?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 13 M: Not really. I knew I wanted to go to graduate sc hool and I knew it would be very hard to afford to go. P: Where was your love affair with chemistry at this point? M: The federal emergency relief act, which paid all my tuition, $200 a semester, I was assigned to the chemistry lab to clean things up. I took chem istry every year I was there and I became a student assistant, as well as basketball and worki ng at the YMCA over the weekend. P: You kind of fell into chemistry? M: Yes. P: It wasn = t a love affair. M: Well, I liked chemistry, it was very neat. You could get clear cut answers and you could work in the lab and you could make things happen. I was grounded in the scientific method of being sure that you were controlling variables, that you had subs tances that were not mixed up with other substances. You learned how to discover what was in a sample of something, you had a process that you went through. I like all that. Quantitativ e and qualitative we called it in those days, I think they have different names for them now. P: What happened to you after you left Webb? This was about what year? M: That was 1940. I went from there to... I had friends who had gone to Yale Divinity School so I applied to Yale Divinity School and went up, parti cularly with a very close friend who had graduated from Birmingham Southern when I had. P: This divinity school interest, where did this come from? I heard you say you kind of fell into chemistry and there was no particular keen interest in ethics or religious... M: The student Christian movement was very active and the [YMCA] was very active at Birmingham Southern.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 14 P: So this [YMCA] was very influential in nurturing... M: Very influential because for the first time when I would go to these conventions or meetings outside of the South, I would meet highly educated, highl y interesting and interested Blacks for the first time. The only Blacks I had ever known were those who were in the servant category, there was no other chance to meet [Blacks]. But the student Ch ristian movement was very, very influential. Then, I could see the system and what it was doing to Whites as well as the Blacks. It was really standing in the way of full development, it was st anding in the way of living up to our ideals of equality of opportunity, equality of treatment, so I learned from the Blacks who were at these meetings. I got an entirely different view from what I = d had just growing up. P: Do you recall the first meeting you had this little break through? M: It was when we went from Birmingham Southern, a ll White, up to Miami University in Oxford, Ohio, and I remember the meal we had together, that was unusual. As a matter of fact, when two, a Black and White became very friendly, they were a little older than we students, the Whites said you know, when I first sat down next to you to eat my meal, I just about threw up it was so strange. The Black said same thing happened to me, I just about threw up sitting next to you. P: Who said this? M: I think it was one of the directors or one of the teachers of the institute that we were attending. [It was] about a week long, it was during Christmas break or during Spring break that we went to these institutes. P: Did you take these experiences home and ponder it a bit? Did it stir things in you that had to do with your interest in going to seminary? M: It certainly had something to do with seminary because the seminary was totally integrated. We had Black instructors as well as White.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 15 P: This was at Yale? M: Yale University Divinity School. P: You were how old when you left for Yale? M: About twenty-two I think. I believe that was it, about that. P: You had good grades and a good academic record so it was not a difficult... M: I was Phi Beta Kappa. P: That = s right. M: I made the Dean = s List every year I was at Southern. It was hard to do because to play basketball, and Birmingham Southern at that time didn = t even have it = s own basketball court, we had to go down to the Birmingham athletic club wh ich was downtown. We had three hours of solid running developing, building wind, so I was exhaus ted and it was very hard to go home and study and then go back to school and be ready for those chemistry that I was an assistant in, be ready with my own classes. P: When you showed up at Yale Divinity School, did you know anybody there? Were you familiar with anybody? M: The person I went up with, and we knew each other in Birmingham and we = re still friends, I was the best man in his wedding and he was an attendant in my wedding. P: His name is... M: Clark Whitehead . P: And you still keep up with [him]? M: Yes. Not as closely as we should. He went in to the ministry. I was not interested in going into the ministry. I was not interested in religious work as such. I was interested more in the history, comparative studies of religions, philosophy of relig ion, psychology of religion. It was just a new

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SRC -10 Morland, page 16 opening for me because chemistry is rather narrowly focused, but at Yale, I studied under people like Richard Neiber who was Reinhold Neiber = s brother and who was an absolutely superb teacher. The teach historian was world renown, again a superb lecturer and teacher. I just gained enormously in those three years. P: Who was he, the church historian that you admired? M: Roland Bainton , that = s who it was. Just before he died, he appeared on television. He was asking questions. He said, you = ve really got two questions there, I = ll take the second one first. So he analyzed and I wrote him a note and I said this is just like classroom, I said I was just delighted to hear you. He wrote back, and we had that kind of personal relationship. I got to know Dean Luther Allen Wigel . Of course, I got to know him bette r when I went out to China from Yale University., but Wigel was one of my teachers as well as one of my counselors. He was dean of divinity school. Richard Neiber was probably the strongest and the best teacher that I had. Reinhold was the one that was very well known, but I thought... I got to meet and know Reinhold and listen to him at Patel Chapel at Yale from time to time. P: You did meet Rienhold Neiber ? M: Oh yes, I met him. As a matter of fact, I was in the wedding of a friend who = s service was held at Riverside Church at the union in New York City. The reception was in Reinhold Neiber = s apartment. P: This was a very ecumenical school, was it not? M: Very ecumenical, but it had a pr eponderance of southern students it seemed. P: Why would that be? M: For those who were not inclined toward going to their denominational school in their area, but who wanted to get out of the South and see another part of the world, that was attractive.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 17 P: So these were folks who had sort of ethical longings and were searching and so forth? M: I think so. They tended to be ecumenical, they were not narrowly focused at all. P: Who were some of the other professors that y ou recall that were import ant or well known at the time? M: Robert Caloon was in the philosophy of religion. Richard Neiber was in Christian ethics, and Liston Pope was in social ethics. It was in social et hics that I began to get interested in looking at society and at groups, human groups, and its role s and statuses and understanding more of the social structure of society. P: So here = s where you got the first hint of a social science interest. M: Exactly. P: What lessons did you take away from Yale Di vinity School? What associations that meant so much to you later on? M: I was in the process of graduating from divini ty school when one of my favorite professors, Kenneth Scott Larette asked me Ken, would you liked to go to China? I jumped at the opportunity because a lot of my colleagues were being chaplains and I didn = t want to be a chaplain. I have great admiration and I had a ca ll from my older brother last night. He = s sending me a book in which the chaplains gave up their life preservers and they went down and died. I think they were four denominations or four different faiths, I = m not sure who they were. P: Was this a battle? M: It was WWII. The ship was sunk and they had life preservers, but there were some who couldn = t swim and who were sinking and so they gave them up and they held hands, in the slush and wash they were lost. P: WWII was upon us at that time when you were in divinity [school]?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 18 M: 1943 was when I finished, yes. We were plunged into it. I had a draft status, every male had a draft assignment. You were 1A, in my case I have a bad heart... P: Even at that time? M: Yeah. So the army wasn = t too keen about taking me so I was given a lower status from say 1A. I can remember working in New Haven at the Railw ay Express, worked from 11:00p.m. to 7:00a.m. Didn = t feel very active the next day, but I made so me money that way. We moved things from freight car to freight car. This was before U PS or Federal [Express], any of these organizations. The Railway Express was the way to send packages, was the way to send almost everything. P: In this you were sending things to the soldiers and sailors abroad, or were you doing this for income? M: I was doing this for Railway Express, I was their employee. P: So it was for income. M: I would load that car and I learned how to pick th ings up and how to... I was told the first [day], he said buddy, you have to break your back that way, let me show you how to do it. P: You learned your first lesson of ergonomics. M: That = s right. P: You did need to work while you were in divinity school? M: Yes. P: Did you work while you were in college as well? M: I worked as a lab assistant throughout college, and I worked at the YMCA over the weekend in order to get some funds. P: You got your first opportunity to go to China and this was a very exciting prospect, wasn = t it?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 19 M: To me it was very, very exciting because I knew I didn = t want to do the other things that Yale divinity school graduates were doing. I had the cl assification that would have permitted me to [End of Tape 1, side A] have gone for a doctorate at Yale in philosophy of religion or in comparative religion, but there the war was going on and I wanted to be involved in it in some way. P: What happened next? How did you get to China and what happened? M: Two of us were asked, Kenneth Scott Larette asked the two of us... P: The other one was? M: ...Yale had done with the Yale School in China called Ya Li . Every year they would send out two graduates to teach English by what we call the dire ct method. The teacher of English would know no Chinese and the Chinese coming in would know no English. You had to learn how to teach and how to speak so that it was possible for these youngsters to understand what was going on. I chose to go to China, I had to get permission of t he draft board, I had to get permission of the state department, and I had to find someway to get there because you couldn = t go through Europe, you couldn = t go through the Pacific with the Japanese and the American fleets fighting each other. P: The political situation there was the nationalist Chinese were the reigning regime at the time? M: Oh yes. Chiang Kai-shek was the presiden t. He had taken the place, he had been designated by Sun Yat-sen who had led the revolution of 1911, 1912 that moved China from having an inherited leadership of total control of the population. P: Were the Japanese in parts of China that you were going to? M: When I went, of course Pearl Harbor had happened. P: What year was this? M: December 7, 1941. P: No, I mean...

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SRC -10 Morland, page 20 M: Everybody of my generation knows when Roosevelt said this day will live in infamy, we are now at war with the Japanese. I knew that at my age that all of us would have our lives turned around. I think everybody knew exactly... I knew exactly w here I was at the time, exactly the words that I heard. P: You were in China at the time? M: No. P: That = s what I was asking. M: I was in New Haven. P: Your trip to China was in what year, this first trip? M: I left New Haven in June of 1943 and took crowded tr ains to New Orleans, stayed waiting in line to take a plane where the next stop was in Merida, Mexico and from there to Guatemala and then to Panama. At Panama, I was off-loaded because I was traveling without any... I wasn = t in the military, I wasn = t in business or the like. I was just a freelance in the sense. P: You were alone? M: No, one other person. P: Oh, the other student, yes. M: The one in this picture that I showed you, he = s in his Chinese gown. He and I stay in touch. He has just had loss of sight completely, he = s totally blind. He has macular degeneration. P: His name? M: Ross Dickson . P: So you were in Panama and now you had to get to China and they wouldn = t let you on the troop ships. Where did you go from there?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 21 M: We had a choice. There was a freighter going through the Panama Canal on its way to Australia, but how would you get from Australia to China wa s the big problem. The other alternative, we learned that there were ships occasionally that sailed from Buenos Aires to Cape Town across the South Atlantic. What the two of us had to do, we waited two weeks in Panama going to the airport, we had to check in everyday and see where we were and how close we were to going. Then, getting on the plane, flying down to Li ma, Peru. Went to Columbia, Guayaquille , and then on down to Lima, Peru. Again, off-loaded. P: You had to be mindful of transportati on that stayed out of war zones, didn = t you. M: Exactly. P: So that was part of the trick. M: It was part of it and yet we were subject to being attacked, particularly in the South Atlantic. The German subs were sinking Argentine ships. We were going on an Argentine ship. Finally got out of Lima, had to fly over the Andes in an un-pre ssurized plane, about 25,000 feet. On that plane, which of course was propeller, there was no jet at that time, they said when you feel like you = re going to throw up because of the difference in pr essure, non-pressurized, there was a little tube that we could take and sip on it, it was oxygen. They said don = t use too much because you don = t have very much, but do that and you won = t get sick. We landed finally up in La Paz in Bolivia after leaving Lima. We were about 14,000 feet there, Lake Titicaca, and I wanted very much to go and see the city that had been hidden from the Spanish, the name of it slips me right now, but we didn = t have a chance to do that. [We] flew on down to Buenos Aires and there we had to wait three weeks going everyday to the ship office to say are you going to sail? They said shhh , not yet. They did not want anybody to know that t hey were going because from time to time, the Nazis would sink those ships, although Argentina was neut ral. I can remember going to movies in

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SRC -10 Morland, page 22 Buenos Aires and they would say we = re going to show the news, but we don = t want you to cheer or we don = t want you to boo because remember we = re neutral so you must not do that. That = s part of the way we passed our time. I liked Buenos Aires, it was a beautiful city, and they had what they called a confeteria . In the late afternoon they had all kinds of good things to eat, pies and cakes and other things. They ate dinner about 10:00p.m. at night. P: Now you have spent weeks in the Western hemisphere and you = re headed for China. How did you get across the Atlantic? M: On the Jose Menendez. The Jose Menendez, we went and they said we = re going tonight, we = re going to slip out at midnight so be down at the dock. We couldn = t take much. We could wear whatever we wanted to, but we couldn = t take much. What we did, we did that on the plane too, I wore even in panama when I had to weigh in the for the plane, I wore winter underwear, three pairs of slacks, four sweaters, and a kind of Mackinaw to keep the rain off, and had belts around inside and hung things on them. I weighed 250 pounds when I got onboard and then when I started taking things off, I can remember the eyes of the attendants really popped when they saw what we had. We couldn = t get anything in China, we knew that. P: Where = d this ship go? Was this a freighter? M: No, it was a passenger ship, 4,000 tons. It bobbed a ll over the South Atlantic, it was rough. It was the middle of the winter, it was in July-August by then. We went to Cape Town. I can remember approach that beautiful harbor of C ape Town just as the sun was coming up. We enjoyed the trip on the second class. They allowed five of us to travel second class. We had to argue because we didn = t have any money. The way Yale in China outfitted us was to give us letters of credit and you could take a letter of credit to the bank, and the bank could deduct whatever money we had to have because we had to change money each time we went into a different city.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 23 P: Did you stay in Cape Town for any length of time? M: About ten days, and then took a freighter around to Durban. P: While you were in South Africa, did you have occasion to observe its apartheid and other conditions there? M: Not really. It was so separate that we just didn = t pay attention to it. The residences I = m sure were all different. What we did, our ship wait ed there for awhile so we would go off on shore and then come back, we = d stay on the ship. We did that until that had to go back to Buenos Aires. We were on that ship when one of the passengers we got to know said this is my third time to try to get across, the other two ships were sunk by submarines. P: And he survived? M: He survived and he was anaesthetized with scotch whiskey to make it this next time. It was such a harrowing experience. The second time the ship was blown up, he had happened to go up on the deck, it was a little hot down below, and he was at one end and it was the other end that was blown up. He went into the water, but he was able to get a life preserver. Then the submarine came up near him and found out what language he spoke and they asked what ship did we just sink? He gave them the name of it and they plunged on down and went on, left him. They didn = t have any room to take him in the sub, but another ship came along going back to Buenos Aires [and] picked him up. P: From Durban then, how did you get further east? M: Durban was about a two week wait. Again, che cking to find out, we were able to get passage on a British troop convoy. There were troop ships and surrounded by the troop ships were destroyers protecting it, and we did a zig-zag course across, the Indian Ocean to Bombay. That was a threeweek trip. The ship was much, much bigger, but we were jam crammed in there with the British

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SRC -10 Morland, page 24 who were going in to India to help stop the Japanese. They just had a few civilian seats. It landed in Bombay and for the first time I realized the British had precedence over us. They go to go through the passport thing first because it was a British colony at the time, India was. P: Did you get to see much of India at t hat point? This is in the middle of WWII? M: We got to stay with missionaries, we couldn = t afford to stay in any kind of hotel. They didn = t have very much. They took us around. They took us , for example, to what they call the Towers of Silence. The Parsees Indians did not want to pollute the earth by putting the deceased in the earth. They didn = t want to pollute it by putting them in water, drowning them or something. So they put them on big slabs of concrete that it was hard to get up to see, and the buzzards and the others would pick the bones clean and then the rain would wash the remains down. That was a part of India that they don = t allow foreigners to see that anymore, but we were able to go to that. P: Did you see any evidence of the cast system at the time? Now you had your social science inclinations moving. Was this in anyway an education about social stratification in India in this trip? M: Not really. The casts were so separate or the wa y of life was so foreign that we lived with British American missionaries and they could tell us about it, but I didn = t see it very much. P: Was it on people = s minds at the time? M: Not so much, no. Again, it was like segregation in this country. It was the way things were. The people of India had accepted the process of being rebor n, reincarnation. If you fulfilled your cast obligations to the full, then you would get a higher position after you died and your soul was implanted somewhere else. When Margaret and I were coming back from Hong Kong once, we usually went around the world and we did that four times, we landed at the Bombay airport. We were going to stay with students of mine out of Macon, they urged us to come. They took good

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SRC -10 Morland, page 25 care of us. But this was long after India had become a separate country from Pakistan as a matter of fact. P: So you = re in India now. We still have a couple more legs of the trip to go to get to China. M: That = s right, by train. The Indian trains were crowded, but they had compartments and we stopped at New Delhi and saw the Taj Mahal. [We] got back on the train, went to Benaris where people would go into the Gangees and wash themselves and all that sort of thing. It looked awfully filthy to me, but I = m sure it was sacred water to them, and then to Calcutta. To get over the southern Himalayas into China was very, very diffi cult. The Chinese national airlines were just filled each time. Three weeks in Calcutta waiting fo r a plane. There, we were in the midst of the Bengali famine, in the midst of a cholera epidemic . People were just dying on the streets and the only thing we could do [that] would make a little c ontribution to the famine relief, India was not able to get food to Calcutta and the people who were sick were undernourished as well as having cholera and not having cholera shots. P: Were they isolated because of the war conditions? M: It was partially the war condition. It was just a matter of poor transportation generally. Finally we were told the plane was leaving. We were at some kind of hotel B I = m not sure whether we were with missionaries or not, B but again we could take only about sixteen pounds of luggage, thirtytwo kilos I think, I = m not sure how much thirty-two is, but anyhow you could wear whatever you wanted to. There we were in hot Calcutta with people just barely having on anything at all, fanning themselves, and we came along the street with a ll of these sweaters and jackets and other things on. I became quite ill, I was over-heated, but we weighed in, and as soon as we weighed in we could take these things off. P: Your purpose for carrying all these clothes is because you were headed for a colder climate right?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 26 M: We were headed for colder climate and we were headed for a country where all of its manufacturing centers had been cut off. The Japanese had taken the most populous part of China and what we were faced with was living really in the peasant, rural area, although Changsha itself was rather large, it was occupied by the Japanese by the time we got there so we had to go up into the mountains. We again had un-pressurized cabins, in the airlines we learned to deal with that. We flew over the southern Himalayas, over ice covered mountains, landed in Quin-ning and I can remember missionaries putting up with us and putting us up saying I don = t think there = s anyway to get to this rural town of Yen-ning where the school was refugeeing. We, though, were finally able to hitch a ride with a British convoy of tru cks and they were going to Chongqing, let us off at a place called Huian , and the only place in Huian , the only way we could get to this town was by a charcoal running bus. They had no gasoline. P: Again because of the war shortages. M: Because of war time, yes. Whatever gasoli ne there was was used by the army vehicles. The civilians just had nothing. P: You landed where and how far did you have to go? M: About a four day trip on this charcoal bus whic h would not go very fast. It went downhill real fast, but we were in quite hilly country. We would stay at Chinese inns, dirt floor, chickens, pigs, and the like picking up any food that w ould fall from the table. P: What provinces did you pass through on your way? M: Guizhou, which Guiyang is the capital of, and one other. Then Hunan, we went into northern Hunan is where the school was, I can show you on the map in a minute. But we stayed in these horrible, horrible inns to us, and there was almo st no partitioning between the rooms, and we were pretty tall and could see over into the next room. One thing we learned to do, we were told do, was

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SRC -10 Morland, page 27 to take an oil cloth, a smelly oil cloth, put it over the bed, and then get your own sleeping bag (that = s what we carried), and the bugs would not get on the oil cloth. So that kept us off. But we also had to sleep under mosquito netting because ther e was a great deal of malaria, great deal of other kinds of illnesses that could be trans ported by mosquitoes and bugs of all kinds. P: Your traveling companion and colleague, what was his name? M: Ross Dickson . P: When you finally arrived, this was a school that was founded and supported by Yale? M: By the Yale China Association. This was a separate corporation. Ya le provided the name and the personnel and the headquarters, and also appeals to alumni who wish to contribute, they could do so. P: Was it designed to promote cultural relations between China and the United States? What was its purpose? M: The purpose was to increase understanding of Chi na on the part of Americans and to get as many Chinese as possible into Yale University so t hat they could learn something about the American way of life. P: Had it been a pretty successful program, had it flourished pretty much in years prior to that? M: Yes. It = s buildings though... It had a beautiful campus in Changsha which was the provincial capital of Hunan. They were all burned in tw o big conflagrations of the entire city. P: Based on bombing? M: They were not bombed so much as they were just set on fire by the Chinese who thought the Japanese were coming in and they didn = t want them to take over a whole city that would support them. They had gotten the word mixed up, the Japanese had not gotten to just the outskirts, they were still some distance away and Chiang Kai-shek had the general who said burn everything. He

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SRC -10 Morland, page 28 had him executed. Later, the Japanese themselves burned the city when they were having to retreat. P: You got to see that initial cam pus? You were there early enough to see? M: No. We could not go to Changsha because the Japanese were there. We went by a charcoal burning bus up to the southern part of the Yen Ri ver, and then had to take a ferryboat which was pulled by and over ward by, it was just kind of an open boat, to the other side where the town of Yen-ning was. Yen-ning was one street and it was a sort of pr ecipitous incline. The street was about two miles long an the school, Ya Li , had been set up at the western end of the town, but on a very slippery slope. In these essays that my st udents are writing about their war time experiences at Ya Li , they tell about that very difficult time we had going up those hills and down the hills in makeshift classrooms, in cold weather. My student s wore gloves with just these two fingers taken out so they could write. They all wore hats and stuff over their ears. We wore hats and tried to write on the blackboard, it was very difficult. Of course, we have snow up in the mountains. It took me, by the way, four months and one week and almo st 25,000 miles to go from New Haven to this place up in Yen-ning . We didn = t get there until November. P: You had left New Haven in when? M: Later part of June. July, August, September, October. P: How long were you there? M: Three years. P: You stayed three years. Did you visit home at any time? M: Visit Chinese homes? P: Visit your own home. Did you come back to the states? M: There was no way to get back, couldn = t possibly get back.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 29 P: So you were there until about 1946? M: In the fall of 1945, the Japanese surrendered. Interest ingly, we went on our own, but I took a trip to Mount O = mei, which is one of the sacred Buddhist mount ains in western China. I had to go to Chongqing, I had to go by charcoal bus, and then take a river boat. Chongqing was a war time capital, a very disorganized city. Then to get from Chongqing up to Chengdu, which was in central Sichuan, we were in the Sichuan province, and then take a bus down to a river, and then take the river to O = mei shan , Mount O = mei, it was a five day trip walking to the top of it. Sleeping in Buddhist temples in the interim and the Buddhist monks would charge us, but feed us. We couldn = t have any eggs, we couldn = t have any meat, we just had to be vegetarians because the Buddhists were. I was on top of Mount O = mei when word came that the Japanese surrendered. We got up so high that we could look down and if the sun were in the right place, we could see Buddhist Halo . We were about 12,000 [to] 13,000 feet with almost a precipitous straight down drop. P: So you were there for three solid years without leaving. M: Yes. Except for the trips that, well about the only place you could go would be Chongqing and the place I went to. P: Tell us about your experience there and fr iends you met and experiences you had. M: We were coached by the person who = s place we were taking, Dwight Roo . I took over his class. They had been expecting us in September and here it was November. They had a very hard time getting back to the states, but they had to kind of retrace our way of going. I can remember when we were walking in the one street of this town which had become a kind of refugee center in a way, and walking to the senior school. The middle sc hool is grade six through twelve. Six years of

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SRC -10 Morland, page 30 English were required of every student. One of the reasons, I forgot to tell you this, the draft board gave us an okay was the American forces desperately needed Chinese who could understand when Americans spoke English, and in turn coul d speak so that they American could understand them. So the graduates of Ya Li Middle School, having had six years of Americans teaching them by the direct method, they had to listen and under stand English, and they had to respond so that we could understand them. This was one of the reas ons we were permitted to go to China. I can remember so well adjusting and going into a cla ssroom of seventy boys in the sixth grade who knew no English and here I was knowing no Chinese or a few phrases if the Chinese couldn = t understand, but Americans could (Chinese phrases), but we started with the four objects: a box, a book, a pen, and a pencil. We would hold the box up and we would say this is a box. Is it a book? No, this is a book. Is it a pen? No, this is a pen. Then we began to hold things up ourselves and say what is it? And the chorus would come back, it = s a book or it = s a box. Starting with those words, we built vocabulary and we had some kinds of text books made of very cheap paper. We didn = t have very good material. But reading these essays, the students say they came in and these foreigners were talking in a way they couldn = t understand, and so they were just waiting for Chinese to be spoken. They finally decided they were going to speak any Chinese, they don = t know any Chinese, so they were forced to speak by what is called the direct method. P: Tell us about this project that you are now doing, now in 2002. Does this include essays by students from back in those years? The war years? M: Yes. Margaret, my wife and I, went to the Far East, first in Hong Kong where our daughter was living, her husband was with the stat e department and she was editor of an art journal called Orientations. She had her doctorate in art of the Far East, so it was a very natural step for her. We stayed with them two weeks. We were planning to take a hovercraft to a place called

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SRC -10 Morland, page 31 Shenzhen, that is the Chinese city which was not so very far from Hong Kong. We were going to meet a British [man], Peter Thompson , with whom I had taught in Ya Li . Peter was the only nonAmerican who had ever taught English there. I was the only non-undergraduate of Yale who ever got that role. Peter was having a real hard time with his heart, though, and I have an enormous amount of communication from him. He would writ e long detailed letters and I so want to take a look at them. Peter died right before were to go up to Shenzhen, and we told Carol we might as well just get on the train here and go up to Shenzhen, then change and go to Guangzhou (this is Canton) and we could fly from there to Changsha. She said mom and daddy don = t you go into China now. The train stations are filled with peasants who have been forced off the farm because of more efficient farming and who have no work, no income, and they would rob anybody they could. P: So this I under the communist regime by this time? M: By this time, yes, definitely was under community regime. That = s a big problem for them now. In those cities they have maybe 20 million peasants in the big cities like Canton or Shanghai or Beijing and they stay mainly in these cavernous railway stations. P: This project, you = ve tried to assemble some essays and poems and so forth from your [students]. M: We went to Changsha and we flew there because our daughter told us don = t you go into there. At your age, you would be easy targets for these peas ants who are just looking for somebody with money. They had had four or five strong husky fr iends who had gone to Canton, gotten out of their train surrounded by thugs with knives and they had everything taken. P: What year was this? M: 1996. P: Tell us about the students.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 32 M: We flew into Changsha two days before t he ninetieth anniversary of the founding of Ya Li , it was founded in 1906 so this was the ninetieth anniversar y. I wrote to my students ahead of time and I said you all get together because we want to talk to you about a project, particularly writing up your lives as they were during the time we were refugeeing in Yen-Ning . So we got there early and they were most coridal. They met the plane, they took us in the Ya Li station wagon to our hotel, Huatian : A hua @ is flower, A tian @ is heavenly. It = s the same as Tiananmen square where they had that crushing of the demonstrat ors. We stayed in the beautiful flowered hotel. [End of Tape 1, side B] P: We = re at the beginning of the tape. This is tape two. This is Ed Peeples with Ken Morland. We = re having a conversation about events and things that happened to him in his life and yesterday, we were talking about you in China during WWII and you were at the Yale School with students. You were to spend three years there. You have now begun a project which tries to remember some of those years with y our students, would you tell us about that? M: The Yale China Association was begun in 1901. The school at which I taught began its operation in 1906, so my wife and I went out to celebr ate the ninetieth anniversary of the founding of Ya Li as Yale is called in Chinese. We met two days before the actual celebration and I talked to the students about writing down what they remembered of their experience of having to refugee in very difficult circumstances; makeshift buildings on the side of a steep mountain slope up in the mountains where we had snow in the winter ti me without heat, without running water, without electricity. They were faced with great obs tacles, yet they turned out to be among the finest students I ever taught. I felt that all the world needed to hear what these students had to say having to study and to learn under such complex, difficult, demanding circumstances. So I invited them, as many as would, to write essays of w hat they recalled during the days of refugeeing up in

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SRC -10 Morland, page 33 the Hunan mountains. We were seventy miles from the front line of Japanese forces. We were constantly under the threat of their moving on up the river, so we had selected another site, actually had purchased boats, had some equipment, some of the library equipment on the boat, and we were ready to leave this town any time it was required. P: Did you hear explosions and evidence of war, and did you ever leave the encampment to go places where there was the war zone? M: No. None of us would dare venture into the area where there was the war zone. The Americans built an air field to the south and to the west of us. The Japanese began to bomb it. They would fly over Yen-Ning , the town we were refugeeing in, and if they had any bombs left over or if they couldn = t find the American base, they would drop their bombs on Yen-Ning . The terrible bombing came in 1939 and almost wiped out the city. From then on, there were pinpricks of bombing. We had bombing shelters so we could go when the si ren would sound, and we would just gather our things up and run into the nearest of these shelters. P: What kind of education environm ent was that? I suppose this had great impact on some of these students = character and so forth and it may be reflected in your essays, is that true? M: I think it = s reflected in the essays. It = s also reflected in the desire of the Chinese to get an education. The Yale School was held in highest regard and it was difficult to get into the school. We had places for only 500 students. It also c harged tuition although most of the students worked their way through by being in the dining halls or hel ping the professors with their work or doing duty of keeping the campus clean and the rooms tidy. P: You lived on the campus there? M: We all lived on the campus. There was really no other place to live.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 34 P: The students began to learn to speak English and I assume the whole curriculum was mostly in English? M: No, the curriculum was primarily in Chinese, but they learned to speak English. They had to have six years of it and they had to learn it in the wa y all of us learn to speak our native language. We do it by hearing words spoken and then we imitate these words and we are able to respond so that foreigners can understand what is being said. P: You are currently editing these e ssays. About how many are there? M: There are thirty essays. They [are] mostly about the students = experiences themselves. There = s also a section on the faculty and the administrators that they remember. P: Do you recall a happy story or a tale that occu rred there with the student or what have you that might be of interest? That shows the effect of the school and/or the effect on the teachers. M: There were some amusing things that happened. P: You want to remind us of one? M: I was working on my Chinese, but being one of two English teachers, being one of two persons who spoke English as his native tongue, the students came to have us go down to the village with them and to interpret. They like to listen to us and to ask us what we have said in English and then to tell the shopkeepers. At one point, I said let me tr y to talk to the shopkeeper. They said all right. I pointed to certain things that I was interested in... P: To purchase? M: Yes, at the shops, and ask them how much it was. The shopkeeper smiled and nodded and talked to one another, but I obviously was not getting thr ough. I turned to the students and said what are they saying? And they rather sheepishly said they are saying to one another this foreigner = s language sounds a little like Chinese doesn = t it?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 35 P: You had lots of contacts with the students and so forth, and after you left you kept up with some of them and the tales they would tell and the stories y ou were to learn about their fate. Were there some sad stories that you can recall? M: I left China in 1946. I came back on LST down the Yang Tse River, a southern day trip. [I] was able to get on an American troop ship returning to the states, went to San Francisco, and then took the train across the USA to New Haven to take up my new duties as executive secretary of the Yale China Association. I continued writing to some of my favorite students and the ones who wanted to communicate, but once the People = s Republic of China was established by the communists, I was asked by the students please don = t write us anymore. If you do, any letter we get from America gets us into trouble. So there was a gap of twenty-five or more years that we heard nothing from the st udents, nothing about them. P: Even though you had been friends and had communicated prior to this ban. M: Correct. We were just asked don = t write. But once Mao Zedong passed on, Deng Xiao-ping gained control. This was around 1977, 1978, 1979. Then I began hearing from the students again. P: Through their own initiative? M: On their own initiative. They found out wher e their former American teachers were and some of them came to this country, and whenever they came , I always invited them to stay here with us and to speak to my classes in anthropology on what things were like in China, what the family situation was, and what kind of education they had. I was am azed at how well they did with their English. They told me that under the communist regime init ially, they were not allowed to speak English. They had to learn Russian instead of English. Once Deng Xiao-ping broke that barrier with American, then they were able to come to this country. When I would ask them I want you to

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SRC -10 Morland, page 36 speak to my anthropology class, and they said we have not used our English for twenty-five years, so we = re not sure if we can do it. But they all did it, they spoke clearly, the students were extremely interested, they had not seen or heard any body from China during their life time. This was at Randolph-Macon Women = s College. They asked questions which were understood by the speaker, and in turn the speaker would elaborate and they communicated very, very well. The education that they got in these six years of Eng lish teach by the direct method took well, and they remembered it well and still had clear enough speech wi thout too heavy an accent that Americans could understand them. P: This school was a secondary school? M: Yes. It = s the equivalent of our grade six through twelve. These six years it was called a middle school. The first was the elementary, then the mi ddle, then there was the college education. But this would be the equivalent of our sixth through twelfth grades. P: You showed me a picture of a man in a book. T here was a sad tale associated with this man. Wasn = t he one of your favorite students? M: He was actually a colleague. P: At the school? M: In the city. P: Oh in the city, he was not associated with the school. M: Not directly. They were close friends to the school and they had been in New Haven when I had been there getting masters degrees, but they ac tually ran the YMCA in Changsha. P: You want to tell the story about him?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 37 M: The Chinese communists in 1956 initiated what they called the Hundred Flowers Movement. Mao Zedong either thought that they had been so successf ul in their revolution that people would no be critical of it, or he was setting a trap for the intellectuals. At any rate, he urged people and all around them said tell us about what we can do that would improve what we = re doing. This just blew the top off things that had been repress ed, and so the communist regime was thoroughly criticized. Mao said these are not flowers t hat are blooming, the hundred flowers were let a hundred flowers bloom, let a hundred schools contend. He said they = re not flowers, they are noxious weeds and we need to get rid of them. Those who had been pushed and forced into speaking, the intellectuals, were labeled as A rightests @ . As rightests, they no longer had a job, they no longer had a rice ticket, they had to do w hatever common labor there was, they had to go to the backs of restaurants to try to get what food t hey could, they had to sleep in the allies. Their families were afraid to speak to them and their friends would not speak to them. Among the verified and generally wonderful people we knew was one name Zhang E = fen , and here is the picture that you are referring to. When he was labeled as a rightest, he was puzzled as to what he should do. He decided that he would take his own life so that his family would not be censored so heavily. He filled his pockets full of stones, went to the bridge across the river at Changsha, jumped into the river (this was during the winter time) and drowned. He was not alone. The coeditor with whom I = m working with was declared a rightest. He had studied English additionally at Nan Qing University and he was recruited by the People = s Liberation Army to go to Korea to interpret for the American and British soldiers so t hey could communicate with their homes or they could have their needs met. It was during that time that he was pushed and urged to criticize so they could improve things. He was labeled a rightest and he said for twenty-two years my family wouldn = t speak to me, I could not marry, I had to live in the alleyways, I had to eat what food that

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SRC -10 Morland, page 38 was left over, I had to do menial tasks. He said they took away my blooming years; he had always wanted to be a writer. In a way we = re restoring this opportunity although he = s now seventy. I have urged him to do an autobiography to say what it was like to be a rightest. He has hesitated because he = s not sure how this would get out of China or how it would be received, but he said he = d finally decided to do an autobiographical novel. I named him Leo, his name was Lu Zheng Bi , and I said Leo, in English there = s a difference between an autobiography in which you = re writing about yourself and the people you know, act ual characters, and a novel in which you create the characters and the situation although they might derive from your experience. But as a rule, we have a disclaimer in a novel which says any resemblance to persons past or present is coincidental. He = s now saying he thinks he = ll do an autobiographical novel for China, but he = ll do a straight autobiography in English for us. I = m hoping he = ll have that opportunity. P: You spent three years in China, you had been to Yale Divinity School, and you had told me earlier that you didn = t have a particularly sensitive racial consciousness prior to this in high school and college. You hadn = t been alerted to the injustices that were all around you in Alabama and other southern states. M: I had not until I was in college at Birmingham S outhern, a part of the Student Christian Movement, and we went to meetings outside the South, and it wa s in those situations that I was able to meet and talk with highly educated negroes, they were called at this time who could tell us what it was like and how humiliating and how detrimental the system was for them and for this country. P: How did you feel about that? What direction did y ou think it implied for you in your career and your own personal life? M: I was determined that I would do what I could in cooperation with others to get rid of forced racial segregation which kept Whites in a dominate position and Blacks in a subordinate position.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 39 P: So this was in this YMCA movement that you began to be sensitive to this. M: It was the [YMCA], it was also the Student Ch ristian Movement which had conferences outside of the South. P: Tell us about the Student Christian Movement. M: It was open to everyone, although our school we re segregated. They had the student Christian movements in the all Black schools, so when we got together at conferences, I can remember particularly one at Miami University at Oxford Ohio. I spoke last time of it, but I didn = t tell you one incident that revealed something that made us very disturbed and angry about the American system. One of my colleagues there taught at what is now Norfolk state. His name was John Blue I think. P: I know him. M: We said let = s go down and eat because they are supposed to be integrated here. We went to a restaurant from the university and they said we will serve you Whites, but we cannot serve the Blacks. This is in Ohio. So we said if you can = t serve all of us, you won = t serve any of us. The next day, we got John Blue to borrow one of the head dresses of an African student. We went back to the same restaurant, they were as courteous, as accepting as they could possibly be. Here was an American who had been rejected, but when they thought he was a foreign Black from Africa or some other place they accepted him. This was deeply disturbing. This was the way we were treating our own citizens. P: So by this time, you were really thinking about it and thinking about your role in dismantling it. M: It was one of the reasons I went on to Yale Di vinity School. It was integrated, it was highly conscious of racial discrimination, it had a very strong social gospel approach, it had an outstanding faculty, so that was one of the reas ons I went there. Although my major had been in

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SRC -10 Morland, page 40 the physical sciences, I was accepted and went into an entirely different area as a result. I will say one thing, though. The [YMCA] at Birmingham Southern decided we would try to have our own integrated group. We talked with fr iends at Miles College, which wasn = t very far from Southern, and I knew Herman Long was president at that time, I knew him and others. P: At the time you knew him? M: When I was at Southern. P: When you were a student there you knew him? M: Yes. So we got a group and went to t he downtown YMCA and had an integrated meeting in Birmingham, probably the only one. P: What year would that have been? M: That would have been 1938, my last year at Southern, I was a senior. P: So now, by the time you had left China now, you really were stirred to care about these issues. You had now seen something in another culture. What was the association between your experience in Chinese culture? Did that hav e any bearing on your perception of American segregation and the culture of White supremacy? M: It had a very profound bearing. P: Can you tell us about that? M: One of the things that bothered us mostly at t he Yale School were the Americans who came in in WWII to help Chiang Kai-shek and the Guomindang, the nationalist government, look down on the Chinese. They though they were backward, they thought that here these people had been here all these years and they didn = t have decent roads, they didn = t have good restaurants, clean and all, and they judged the Chinese from the point of vi ew of their own society and culture, and they missed what was so moving and beautiful about China.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 41 P: Were these American public officials and missionaries? Who were they? M: They were soldiers, but also the missionaries had that same kind of view. They were saving these people who were lost if they didn = t somehow breakthrough and get to them. My students told me on no uncertain terms that they deeply resented the soldiers who were arrogant. They said some of them are very, very friend and all, but some of them are arrogant. These things come out in the essays I might say. The missionaries made t hese negative judgements about how they could be saved from eternal damnation if only they woul d believe and do what the missionaries wanted them to do. This turned me off from the missionary who was there to convert. There were other kinds of missions, educational missions, agricultural missions t hat would help with different aspects of life and who were not all that evangelical. P: Did this help you understand t he definition of ethnocentrism? M: Absolutely. It came out loud and clear. P: You left China in 1946 apparently and you left for the Yale China Association? M: I was asked to serve as executive director. P: Immediately after? M: Immediately after. P: It was a paid position? M: It was paid, but not particularly well. $3,000 a year which was, even in 1946, could barely make ends meet. P: What did you do with this association? Were you in New Haven? M: In New Haven. Yale provided us with offices and with opportunities to speak to alumni. I went to various places. [In] New York City [I] had a long session with Henry Loose who was a graduate of Yale and a very strong supporter of China, he was very much interested, and started him thinking

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SRC -10 Morland, page 42 about rebuilding the school. He and W. Averal Harrowman of New York appealed to Yale graduates and they raised B I was in Henry Loose = s office for example one time, and asking him for his regular contribution which was more than my salary for a year that he would give, he was very generous. He got on the phone and he called about five people and he said look, I = m giving $2,000 to your organization, and I = ll increase it if you will give to the Yale in China Association. In thirty minutes, he had raised over $10,000, which in 1946 was a sizeable sum. P: What else did you do there? Did you promote further trips of other students? What kind of activities were involved with the association that you were responsible for? M: We published a newsletter to let all those that had any contact and who were interested know what Yale in China was and what it was doing. My chief job was to raise money in order to have sufficient funds to send Yale graduates out to teac h, and to bring Chinese to Yale University to study. The office of Yale in China alerted the Yale student body that we had places, at this time, for English teachers, a nurse, and an M.D. and we were going to pay their way there, reimburse them to some degree and then keep that contact wi th Yale in China moving and keep it alive, and also with the promise that we would build a new school. We opened up a competition for persons who were interested in rebuilding Ya Li , the Yale in China school and there was a Chinese, King Louis Woo was chosen by the board of trustees. I, of course, was at the board of trustees meetings, and would organize them and we got people there like Dean Wigel of Yale Divinity School whom I got to know very, very well and who was a big help. Henry Sloan Coffin of Union University in New York was the vice president of the board, and we had other persons of very high caliber who would discuss and talk about what should be done. P: You were there at the association for how long?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 43 M: I was there for one year. It was beginning to be clear that the Guomindang was not going to win that civil war, and that if the communists came in, Yale would go out. I realized that I really wanted to get into a more intellectual approach. I wanted to go into teaching. I began taking courses in anthropology at Yale, and sociology, I did them at night, and I wrote a recommendation to the board and said I think there are two ways you might move. One is to have Ross Dickson , who had stayed an extra year in China, divide the execut ive position and both of us would take a course or two at the graduate level, or you could get a new executive. They decided they wanted to get a new executive, so I tried to get a scholarship or scholarship help at Yale and went to Leo Simmons who was one of my teachers, he wrote Sun Chief , a great biography of a Hopi Indian. P: And he was a medical sociologist as well. M: I didn = t realize that. He had nothing for me. I w ent to the head of the graduate school, they had nothing. But it was interesting, Howard Odum of the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill was visiting lecturer. I took his course, which was at night, and liked very much what he was doing. When I received no positive affirmation at Yale, I a sked him about coming to the University of North Carolina to get my degree. He was skeptical. He wondered why anybody would leave Yale to go to UNC, but one of the reasons I wanted to was that Yale graduate school offered no courses in the summer. Here I was in the thirties and still without a position that I wanted to build in or without the kind of education that would give the position that I would like to have. He told me to come on. He would see that I would make it. I under stand that he diverted the window-washing fund for Alumni Hall in which the sociology courses were being taught, and anthropology courses, and I was able to make it with that B I > d say the little bit from being executive secretary, but also I got a very good fellowship at UNC. John Gillin was teaching at Duke, he was an anthropologist, and he and his father had written a textbook called Social Anthropology , very fine book. Odum said I = ve

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SRC -10 Morland, page 44 promised I = d turn over some top-notch students to John Gillin, so I was turned over to Gillin. So I took his courses and those of Guy Johnson who was both a sociologist and anthropologist. Those fields used to be much closer toget her than they are at the present time. P: They were in the same department. M: Yes. P: The course that you took with Odum was what? M: It was the Sociology of the South primarily. P: Did it resonate with you? M: It resonated beautifully with me because it br ought together so many loose ends of greater understand of the society from the point of view of the social scientists. P: What was Howard Odum like? M: Odum was a strange person in many ways. He was not a good lecturer. He didn = t organize things well, but he was inspirational and he would come through at times with things that would just thrill me, but as a totality he was not easy to follow, easy to work with necessarily. P: His influence on sociology of the South, on other scholars, could you comment on that? M: He was very, very great. He was the leader and UNC a leader. He and Guy Johnson were there. Guy Johnson had a year as director of the Southern Regional Council. He showed me how you could use your knowledge from sociology and put it into practice with an organization that was primarily promoting race relations, primarily trying to get rid of t he cast-like system that the United States had at the time based on race. P: Before you left Yale, did you have memorable teac hers there as you took those part time courses? M: Leo Simmons I = ve mentioned. Another, Raymond Kennedy was a great teacher. P: In sociology or anthropology?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 45 M: Anthropology. He was doing field work in Indones ia and this was during the time of the disturbance where the Dutch were in charge and he was very much interested in me and I think had he not met a terrible fate, I would have stayed at Yale. He and one other colleague were out in the rural area of Indonesia, Bali I think, and they were surr ounded by rebels who thought they were Dutch and they were taken out and executed. That was a big loss for me and for the university. P: Now you moved to Chapel Hill and you were single. Were you excited about going to Chapel Hill? M: Very much so. Frank Graham was there. P: He was the president? M: He was president. There was an openness, there was a spirit that I liked even better than the one at Yale in terms of learning and challenging and the opportunities in the South I felt were greater for me than they were up in New Haven. P: This was in what year? M: This would have been in the fall of 1967. P: When you went to Chapel Hill for the first time? M: 1947. In the two years from 1947 to the end of 1948, I had completed my course work, John Gillin sent me out to the field which was South Carolina. He received a Rosenwald grant, the last of the Rosewald funds, and it was enough for me to ask Margaret Louise Ward to marry me. I was asked to study the mill village section of a South Carolina town. P: How is it that you were awarded the pr ize of Margaret? How did that occur? M: We were both from Birmingham. P: Did you know her from before? M: I had met her, but only briefly. She was beautif ul, very much interested in what I was doing. P: Progressive thinking too?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 46 M: Very much so. P: She was in tune with your present attitudes about race and American apartheid? M: Yes. She hadn = t had the kind of exposure that I had had, but she was ready. So I took this bride who had been brought up in Mountain Brook, which is the elite of Birmingham, and we went to live in the mill village sections of a South Carolina town. P: What was the town you were examining? M: The town was York, South Carolina which we call ed Kent, the Duke of York, the Duke of Kent. It was customary at that time to disguise the name and to be sure we didn = t identify people themselves. We were going to look at the syst em, and not at particular individuals and certainly not to make any kind of evaluation. P: Did this have any kin at all to the book of Blackways of Kent . M: Hylan Lewis wrote Blackways of Kent and he and I were in York at the same time. I was studying the mill village sections, he was studying the Black sections. P: Was he a student or was he... M: He was working on his doctorate and he was at New York at CCNY. Also, there was a third person, Ralph Patrick . Ralph Patrick with Yelin had first gone through the South and they selected York as a place that had both the ol d South and the new South. It had the kind of grandeur in its housing of the elite, but it al so had the industrial South in the mill village. P: New textile industry that was beginni ng to develop widely or had developed widely. M: Then it had a sizeable Negro population as well. Patrick found that he could not do a thorough job on all three sections, he tried to. So he took the town of Kent and I took the mill village sections and Hylan Lewis took the Black sections. P: Was there a third book written or was it just the two books written about that?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 47 M: Just the two. Ralph Patrick could never quite bring himself... Now he was getting his doctorate [in anthropology] in MIT, which he did. He taught medical anthropology at Chapel Hill, although he passed away much, much too early. I remember his wife would put the two books, the one I = d written on Millways of Kent and the one Hylan Lewis had written on Blackways of Kent on their mantle, and said where is Townways of Kent? But he was never able to pull it off. P: Hylan Lewis, what was he like? What do you recall about him? M: Delightful person. We worked together well. We had to share a recording device. We had to share it without letting people know that we were working together, at least we were both from UNC. I would park the UNC van at a certain place and he would come by, this would be at night, and I would slip him the recording machine. He said he had to be very careful because the Blacks would say you = re just feeding this stuff to the Whites. But Hylan was able to get into the real heart of the community and his Blackways of Kent is I think a gem of community study by an anthropologist. P: Was he Black? M: Yes, he had to be. P: To gain report and access at the time. M: Yes. I = ll say one thing about Hylan. There was place I visited fairly often that both Blacks and Whites frequented. It was a place where they woul d play pool and do a lot of heavy drinking. The liquor store was right next door. P: Little Red Ball? M: Yes. P: South Carolina beverage control store.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 48 M: Well it was, that = s right it was. I remember he went in and they didn = t know who he was and he had his hat on and some Whites said nigger, take that hat off. Hylan said it just went all over him, but the studies got to be saved to he gradually took his hat off, and the man said oh you = re not who I though [you were], I was just teasing, I apologize . This was a White who said that to Hylan. P: So there were classes of prejudice you might say. M: Oh definitely, yes. P: So Kent, or York, was a complicated town. It had t he moderate thrust of industrial life, but it had all segregated, and then it had proud and elegant... M: It had three way segregation. P: Tell us about that. M: You had the Black section of course with the leadi ng persons there, as I said yesterday, the funeral director and the ministers were the ones who were in leadership positions. The mill village section was owned by Charles Cannon and I might say that... P: Of Cannon Industries? M: That = s right. John Gillin took me to meet Mr. Cannon , and to tell him that I was going down into [End of Tape 2, side A] one of his mill village towns and that if I gave them any trouble, to let him, Gillin, know. But I was there just to observe and to understand. Cannon said to me, he said they = re not going to accept you. You ought to go in there as a salesman or something else, not as somebody who is studying them because they = ll clam up on you. I thanked him for his advice, but I thought it was the worst possible advice because very soon, they would know that I wasn = t interested in selling, and then they would have clammed up and I wouldn = t have gotten anywhere. P: You actually moved into that community and you were married?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 49 M: I moved in and I lived with a retired couple. Margaret and I did not marry until I had been there for one semester. She came in in the middle of the y ear, we were married in February. Then we lived in the town section after that. P: You lived in a little house? M: We were boarding with one of the elite families. P: This was an all White community? M: This part that Ralph Patrick had studied. He had stayed previously with this family, they were a mother and daughter who had boarders. Though they didn = t have boarders, they had roomers. Margaret and I had a refrigerator which we shared wi th somebody else, but we also ate at the mill boardinghouse, and there I learned a great deal. I could turn the conversation politically or I could turn it religiously or I could turn it in te rms of leisure time and it was a real education. P: Your book referred to the White community, did it not? The workers were a segregated workforce largely? M: At that time, the house the mill people lived in came with their job. It gave Cannon a great deal of strength you know. P: Like the coal industry in other parts of the South. M: That = s right. This was disappearing. The mill owners were getting rid of the villages because they were difficult. We got to know two or three families very intimately, Margaret and I did, very well, and we used to visit them each time we went from Williamsburg, where I taught first, to Birmingham. We always stayed over with t he mill people, and always called each other at Christmas time. We found them warm, accepting people as long as they were accepted as they were.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 50 P: Did you find that people, in interviewing, ar e often willing to be very revealing if there = s a bit of trust and report and understanding about what the interv iewer is going to do with the information? How did you find that? How did you find Mr. Cannon = s proposition to be wrong? M: People were very suspicious of somebody from outside coming in. I told them, I = m a student from the University of North Carolina and I am here to l earn how southerners really live. I said there are a lot of people that don = t understand the South, and they give wrong impressions, but we = re going to get the right impression if we can work t ogether. We can tell them the truth of living here and what a great part of the country this is. They went for this and I was accepted. I went of fishing trips and we went sailing in the river. At first I thought they wanted me for my company, but they wanted me for my height because we would have to hold a net up. I was 6'4" and I was able to hold it up higher and they brought it around and t hen got into the willows or the like and they beat the bushes and ran the fish into the net. Then we would get inside and grab these fish, pull them out. I always felt a little uncomfortable, I nev er did grab many fish, but they always took some pity on me and said Morland isn = t very good at this. So they gave Margaret and me a fish or so and we would = ve gone hungry sometimes had they not done that. P: You were there for how long? M: I was there for twelve months. P: Twelve full months, so you really were a resident of that community. M: In a way, although when the book came out, I reme mber the family with whom we stayed in the town section said you = ve not given an accurate of the relationship between the town and the mill village because the town people look down on the mill people, and no doubt about it. They would not let the mill people come to the front door for ex ample, they have to go to the back door. They really criticized Margaret and me for having mill friends come to our apartment in their home to

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SRC -10 Morland, page 51 have dinner. They said you = re embarrassing us. They said don = t do this anymore. So there was this kind of thing and I told them well, I reported as I saw it, and I know it = s presumptuous to come down for a year and to try to tell what this town is like even though there were three of us at work on it. I said we do the best we can without trying to make any kind of judgement one way or the other. P: Did other people criticize the book? Did they a sk to see it? What was the general acceptance of the book later? Did very many people read it at all? M: It was reviewed by mill workers = publications in Gastonia and in other towns that had mills in them. Very critical. They did not like the book. Our friends in the mill village stood up for us and they said you know every word in this book is true. If you kept your big mouth shut it wouldn = t have gotten in there in the first place. The rumor was that in the village (it was very strong) that we had been found to be communist spies and we were locked up in a federal penitentiary in Washington. P: Because of this book? M: Because of our being down there and inquiring and ge tting all this information. Our friends just laughed at this and said we know that = s not so. The Presbyterian minister, whom we got to know quite well in the town section, went to Rich mond and he was there at the seminary in Richmond, Union [Theological Seminary], and he said he would get th ings straight. He sent postcards to York and he said Margaret and Ken Morland are alive and well and teaching at William and Mary. He said he knew if he put it on a postcard, everybody in the town would know about it. P: Do you remember his name? M: Malcolm ... I = d have to look it up, I = m not sure. But he and his family were wonderful to us.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 52 P: What did your experience there tell you about soci al stratification in that town and what could be an example across the country. Was there a lesson to be learned about class and race in that town that was important to you? M: I think it reflected the kind of system that Am ericans had. There were the elite, and by the way Ralph Patrick broke those down into the blue bloods and the red bloods. The blue bloods looked down on the Whites who were not mill people, and t hey did not live in houses that were as grand as the upper group. The red bloods looked down on the mill people and probably more so even than the blue did. Even the Blacks considered ta king a position to help a mill family was much lower in status than helping a town family. Hylan Lew is was able to tell me this is the way they felt. P: So it was an example of August Hollingshead = s classification of social s tratification in our country in anyway? M: It was very clearly stratified because you had both physical as well as the social stratification. P: By your study of the related lit erature at the time, how representativ e did you think this study was of conditions in the country? M: It had the advantage of being an intensive study of a small town of around 4,500 people studied intensively in the three major divisions. So it woul d, I think, put in depth the sorts of things that Allison Davis had written about, that even Cuna Myrdal had reported on. The three studies, and if Ralph Patrick = s had been published, they would have been combined into a single volume which was unique at that time. By the way, we did not have complete acceptance by anthropologists because to be an anthropologist, you needed to go out to some unknown tribe somewhere. But if you were a part of the soci ety you were studying, and we were, then you would

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SRC -10 Morland, page 53 not have the objectivity. Yet, we had the tremendous advantage of knowing the language and the language being the vehicle of the culture. We could know what went on in innuendos and discussions. I attended church service, the mill people were very religious, and I went to the Church of God of Holiness, the Wesleyan Methodi st, and the Mill Village Baptist. They were all totally segregated from the town, but they were al so classified within the mill villages themselves, the mill sections themselves, and I can remember the superintendent B I went to see him, I paid him my respects and told him who I was and what I was doing B and he said, you get to know the Baptists, they = re the good people here. These others are sort of shiftless. He attended a church in town because he was affiliated with the town, but he did not go to the Mill Village Church. But I got to know the ministers very well in the mill v illage sections. As a matter of fact, each week, I had to write up in detail carbon copies of all I had done this week and get them to Gillin because he said you might have to destroy all your notes and I want a copy of everything, but he also wanted to be sure that I was doing my job. He told me you = re spending too much time with the people in religion. I told him I was there learning a whole lot. For example, I attended all the handling of the snake services where visiting people would come, set up a tent, put sawdust down on the ground and they would come with a very fundamentalis tic gospel, and then they would bring out the snakes. They were in cages, they were usually copperhead snakes or moccasins. The town police had a real problem there. Do you allow t hese snake handlers to subject members of the city to some kind of danger? They worked it out with the visiting evangelists and all of those who were true believers would come up on the little podium and they would hold up these snakes and say in the name of the Lord Jesus and they would take a ve rse from the book of Mark and say if you truly believe, you can handle serpents and they will not stri ke you, you can drink poisonous liquids and it will not harm you. I can remember little boys running around with concoctions that they had had

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SRC -10 Morland, page 54 and telling the chief snake handler drink this for us, drink it. They said not yet fellows, not yet fellows. Interestingly, the chief snake handler was bitten by a snake and his arm had bad swelling, but he would have no medical attention, he said God will take care of it, and he survived all right. He said God was just testing me to see if I was a true believer. P: Were these indigenous or itinerant, the snake handlers? M: The snake handlers were itinerant. P: What was the ethnic background of the mill folk. Were they native to South Carolina, that part of South Carolina? They were immigrant s from other parts of the country? M: No, they were from families that had been farmers, al most all of them. As a matter of fact, they still had relatives, many of them, and I went out and lived with farmers and helped them for the first time in my life go pick cotton and sawgram , and run a sawgram mill and drive a tractor. I got a great deal by living in their homes and just being a part of the their family. P: Was it an advantage or a disadvant age to have been a southerner yourself? M: I think it was an advantage, but the major th ing that made this system of Gillin and of the participant observer work was genuine appreciation and acceptance of the people you were studying. You were not evaluating them, you we re not looking down on them. You had admiration and those young men, for example, and those who were in school did not do very well. I talked to their teachers, but when I went with them say coon hunting, possum hunting, they knew exactly what to do. We went out with dogs and we woul d let the dogs loose, and we would talk our talk, usually stories that I had a dilemma, should I put t hem in this book or not because they would not be considered proper and I left them out. At any rate, they could hear immediately when the dogs had treed something and they could go through the under brush; very skilled in that way. If the schools had taught them what they practiced, they would have come out very, very high. But they

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SRC -10 Morland, page 55 taught them on book knowledge in which they were not interested. The realization that these people were bright in their own way, that they were hard-working, that they were loyal , that they cared about each other and they cared about their families B not all of them, there were some drifters that I identify in the book B once this happened, it really wouldn = t matter where you were from. I think Hylan Lewis had to be a Black, he c ould not have gotten there. One of the problems with Ralph Patrick was his home was Gastonia and he was in the upper families there, and to write about what was going on in a candid way proved just overwhelming for him. P: What was Margaret = s role while she was there? Did she help gather information in any way? M: She was indispensable in the sense that she could go to women = s sewing circles. As a single male there some question about you, but you if you have a beautiful wife you = re more acceptable. So together, we went to funerals, we went to c hurch services, we went to birthday celebrations. She could talk to women and talk about women = s work, rearing of children and all the rest, in a way that would have been very, very difficult for me to have done. She made a major contribution. P: Did she actually write notes and offer them to you? M: Yes. John Shelton Reed who published Southern Cultures came here and did an interview with us and I showed slides. It = s an article in the second volume of Southern Cultures called A Remembering Kent and the conversati on with Margaret and Kenneth Morland @ . P: And there = s lots of pictures there too. You took lots of photographs didn = t you? M: I took a great many photographs. I used the camera mainly to get pictures of children and events. Then I would talk to the mill people, how about my showing this in your house? They would get neighbors and they would have refreshments, and so we would have a showing. They would just laugh and carry on when they would see each other in the pictures because they hadn = t seen color slides before, but I guess I made fourteen or fifteen presentations in mill villages homes.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 56 P: In China and now again in South Carolina, you = ve told me lots about how you were concerned about negative evaluation ethnocentrism with folk peopl e who you were working with or studying. This is the second time you = ve described with great intensity. So what was happening inside you about this question of equality and ethnocentrism and race , the tangle of race in America? As you made the formal efforts with your academic career there at Chapel Hill and in the field in South Carolina, what was going inside you at the time? M: You = re so busy observing and trying to understand and get your notes written and getting them typed out, that you don = t have a great deal of time for introspection. In retrospect, I could see how exceedingly difficult it would be for anybody in any culture in any society to throw off ethnocentrism and to keep from evaluating in terms of their own st ation in life other people. For example, the mill people were very critical of the town people. They said they = re a bunch of hypocrites up there. They put on heirs , we = re more genuine down here you know. The Blacks had their ethnocentric views of both the town and of the mill people. It is something that = s ingrained. What is your standard of trying to determine who these people ar e if you are evaluating? It has to be the one you = re accustomed to. P: We know from your later work that you were noted for egalitarianism and you were a mortal enemy of segregation and so forth. In your growi ng up, White supremacy was all around you and here you find yourself studying and studying people in other cultures or subcultures and you seem to be advocating an open view of them. I was wonderi ng, at the end of your academic experience and so on, what were you thinking about race in Amer ica, particularly in the South, and what did you have to do with it and about it? M: I think the experience of being in a society or a part of society in which you observe and participate as much as you = re permitted to participate, that there is a liberation that comes that you get to the

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SRC -10 Morland, page 57 point where you do not make ethnocentric judgem ents, but you try to understand people for who they are and for what they do and to appreciate t hem on that basis. This would be true of Blacks and rural [people] and mill people and town people. You need to make a ceaseless effort to make sure you = re seeking to understand and not to evaluate. P: Why would people be motivated to do that if they grew up thinking that White supremacy was the norm? Remember you described how normati ve was the White racism around you and how unconscious Whites were and how apparently accepting Blacks were of it, for all you could see they were accepting of it. How is it that you particularly came out of that place where you weren = t thinking at all about race and now here you are ma king a career of the study of differentiation between people on an arbitrary societal basis? M: I think in the disciplines of sociology and ant hropology, there is an experience, and my students at William and Mary and in other schools in which I have taught have said B and I felt this was the case particularly studying initially at Yale reading Margaret Mead and Ruth Benedict and Elsie Clews-Parsons and so many who had done field studies trying to understand B that it made them more open and more accepting and far less ethnocentric. They said these courses that you taught and your colleagues taught made a big difference in our lives. I think if people believe, for example, that the human species can be readily divided into specific different entities of races, as the anthropologists I have studied have said, if people believe these differences are there, then the effect of that is equivalent to these differences being there. Reality is connected to what people think and the way they = re viewing and looking at things. If you can realize that people grow up in a situation as human beings mainly, that any kind of physical division is arbitrary, is culturally derived, if you realize that, then you can be more open, more accepting of people who are different from yourself.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 58 P: When you were at Chapel Hill doing your graduat e studies was there, like there was later in sociology particularly and perhaps even in anthropology, an insistence on being objective and not being involved in society? Social science was a distance observation of social reality and you should never get involved in social reforms. Was that true of Chapel Hill at the time given Howard Odum and the others who were there? M: There are different roles here. As a social science, you seek to understand and you don = t let your judgements affect what you = re seeing. You try to see what it is. You have, what I like to call, a citizen role or a role in terms of your own values to look at these facts and if you don = t like them or if you don = t like the structure to do something about them . But you are not a social scientist when you do that. Yet, I saw that in Guy Johnson particularly with Southern Regional Council, I saw it in Howard Odum, I saw it in Leo Simmons and Raymond Kennedy , John Gillin and the others. You do your research so that somebody else and come back and repeat and find something similar. If they don = t, you = re not doing a good job. On the other hand, you are free as an individual, as a person with a certain set of values , religious beliefs or the like, to institute change through organizations like the NAACP legal defense fund or like the Southern Regional Council or the Fellowship of Southern Churchmen or some of these other organizations. P: Did you ever find an occasion that that line was fuzzy between the social scientists versus the citizen? After all, people called you a communist, that you were some kind of far-fetched idealist coming into a community. So the debate in sociology has been often about the ability to truly be objective that you did carry some of your values to the social science project, whether you intended to or not. I was wondering if you ever encountered fuzzy cases of this or people who were critical. Were there hard, strict constructionists on t he one hand and other social scientists playing loose and free with this notion?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 59 M: I think it = s found in all disciplines. If you have a gr oup of medical people read x-rays, they come up with somewhat different answers because of who they are. On the other hand, they = re trying to understand what = s going on in this person = s life and you need somebody else to check and to double check. It = s hard to prevent yourself from being critical of things you don = t like and of people you don = t like, but on the other hand, if you = re going to understand, you can = t... I separate roles. I think when I am a member of say the Virginia Council on Human Relations, I have a different role from when I am studying young children in terms of their race awareness. I want to find out when do they become aware and what kind of attitude do they carry with the views. You have both of these, and you never separate y ourself totally, you are an individual, and yet we have all kinds of roles. We have a role with our wife that we have with no other women, we have a role with our daughters that we don = t have with other girls, we have a role with our friends, we have a role with colleagues in the academic community, we have roles in any organization or church or social group that there are expectations . We can handle multiple roles reasonably well. We know when as a parent how we deal with our children. We don = t deal with other children exactly the way we deal with our own, we have a somewhat different role with them. P: When you were in a citizen role on occasion, di d you find that in the back of your head you took findings from the social sciences that were usef ul and applied them such as you suggested others were doing? At such times, would you possibl y have claimed that you had studied a little bit deeper and you knew a little bit more about a racist r endition of race would be? In that sense, was a social science role completely separated from the citizen role? Did you encounter any fuzzy conditions like that? M: I wouldn = t call it a fuzzy condition. Take the exampl e of Selma Alabama. I was a representative of the United States Department of Commerce, wo rked with LeRoy Collins, the former governor of

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SRC -10 Morland, page 60 Florida. [I] got to know Andrew Young and others in Selma. Actually, my mother was born in Selma and my father just north of there in Greens boro, Alabama. One of the reasons I was sent there was because of my background. I could go and talk to the mayor, I could talk to Blacks and they frequently had attitudes and ideas about ra ce that I knew were wrong, but I didn = t try to correct them, but I could kind of see through that where they were coming from and reported in that way. I would call it an informed kind of activi ty, informed through the knowledge that comes from being a student of sociology and anthropology. P: By being informed, now you could initiate some constructive next step with them toward a solution about a race conflict of some sort. M: We could certainly do that. I can remember in Selma again finally getting together the leaders in the Black community and in the White community toget her in the old Albert hotel. We said we are here to help you understand what the situation is, so the Blacks could talk directly to the Whites and tell them what they were like and what they were afraid of, and the Whites could talk again with much greater understanding reflecting their own vi ews and the Blacks views as well. [End of Tape 2, side B] P: We were talking about the sometimes division bet ween the roles of social scientists and citizen and you were telling me about an example of a present ation in Selma, Alabama, the city where the famous march occurred, and you were there before in this session that you were going to describe before the Selma march on the bridge. M: That = s correct, yes. P: What session were you involved in? Who was there and what went on? M: The very first time, the communi ty relations service of the U.S. government of the U.S. Department of Commerce. As a matter of fact, we had a conference with Luther Hodges , I think he was the

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SRC -10 Morland, page 61 Department of Commerce then, and this is in Title Ten of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. It was set up to help communities deal with any probl ems of desegregation they encountered. P: What year do you think it was that you recall? That you were down in Selma at this meeting? M: 1964. P: Right after the Civil Rights Act? M: That = s right, right after. I went down under the 1964 Civil Rights Act. P: It was just a matter of weeks or months after it? M: Yes. P: Because it was May [of] 1964 the act was passed. So they started this service right away. M: Immediately, yes. P: They invited you onboard. How did they choose you Ken, at that time? M: I = m not sure. I had been with the U.S. office of education on other projects. They knew something of my Alabama background and the w anted a southerner in there. They had one person who was with the CRS, the Community Relations Service, and he was from South Carolina as a matter of fact. He and I went down together. This had to do with the problem in voting. The Blacks simply could not register to vote and they were very distraught and they asked for help. So we came down to see if there was anything that could be done through the U.S. government. [interruption] P: We were in Selma? M: Yes. I was asked by the community relations service, which was created by the 1964 Civil Rights Act and under the guidance of the department of comme rce. I was asked to go with one of the regular programmers at CRS, Mac Seacrest who was from South Carolina. We were in Washington and went to Selma together. It was necessary to fly into Selma and then to rent a car.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 62 We went down in 1964 after the Community Relations Service had been created, and our first visit was to the mayor of Selma. We told him that we had come at the request of some members of the community and that we were here to do whatever we could and what could we do? His answer was keep Martin Luther King out of town. We said we can = t do that because he = s free to come and free to go, we live in that kind of country. He said the best thing you can do is get out of town yourself. So we had no cooperation whatsoever fr om mayor of Selma at the time. Smitherman was his name. P: But you did have a public meeting? M: We visited various people. I knew the direct or of the YMCA because when I was in Birmingham, our basketball team juniors in high school had co me down to play their basketball team. Mr. Grist was well known in YMCA circles so I went to s ee him and to remind him of our relationship and to ask him what was going on and what did he think could be done. I did the same in terms of going to see Mr. Faulkenberry who was editor of the newspaper. His daughters had gone to RandolphMacon and so he gave me a very cordial reception. P: You had been at Randolph-Macon by this time. M: Yes, I was there in 1964. I went to Randolph-Macon in 1953 as a matter of fact. P: So you visited folks there and tried to get a measure of what was going on. What else happened while you were there? M: We, Mac Seacrest and I, were able to persuade seven leaders of the White community and seven leaders of the Black community to come together in the old Albert Hotel, which was torn down shortly after that, and to face one another and to talk about what could be done to hasten the registration of voters because they were all being turned away. Mac Seacrest and I did go out to see the registrar. He was in his eighties and he wa s in charge of the waterworks of Selma. Here

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SRC -10 Morland, page 63 we had a town that was just about to erupt because of the tensions of not being allowed to vote. Blacks were on the march and they wanted Martin Luther King to come. The head of the registrar had us sit down and he said boys, you just tell me about yourselves. Here instead of facing us, he wanted us to tell him about [ourselves]. I could speak up and say I was from Alabama, my mother grew up in Selma, was born in Selma and grew up there, my father in Greensboro. Then Mac said he was from South Carolina. So we gave our... and said we were concerned about people being able to register. He was a registrar and we didn = t understand what was holding things up. He said we = re being very careful about who we let vote. They had a long questionnaire that it was impossible for most people to vote. One of the Black ministers who was a leader in the Selma community had come from the state of Miss ouri and he had been elsewhere and he had voted in both of those very readily, but when he got to Se lma, he was declared ineligible because he could not deal with this set of questions that w ould determine whether or not he could vote. P: So you went down there as a duo, you and your colleague? M: Our goal was to open up the registration so that people could vote. This was true of poor Whites and not well-educated Whites. There were very few people who were eligible to vote. P: So you were sent there by the [Community Rela tions Service] just as a two person team. Your partner, talk about him. M: Mac Seacrest from South Carolina, but he was on the sta ff of Community Relations Service. He was a newspaper man, but he had gone ther e. Somehow he had gotten there, I = m not quite sure how. P: Was he White or Black? M: He was White. P: So the idea was to try to negotiate something of a settlement?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 64 M: To find out what was going on and to see if we c ould ease the situation. The director of public safety was Wilson Baker and he was very cordial, very nice to work with, but the sheriff who was head, really the power broker ther e, Sheriff Clark was very diffi cult to deal with and I think one reason that the Martin Luther Ki ng group, the SCLC, chose to go to Selma was because of Sheriff Jim Clark for the same reason they went to Birmingham because Bull Connor was head of the safety commission and they knew their attitudes and k new that this would attract attention, this would cause a blocking. They had had difficulty in Albany, Georgia they had pulled out too... It was a failure for the SCLC and they were determined to make this work. P: How long were you there? M: We were there four or five days and then recalled to Washington to make our reports. P: Did you imagine what was to happen there? Were you able to anticipate how those tensions you were seeing might end up? M: It was obvious. What the Blacks did was to meet at a church called Brown Chapel. I can remember sitting in the back of that and singing we shall overcome with them. I heard King speak, he was very persuasive. He said now we = re going out to tomorrow and we = re going to march. We = re going to go around the courthouse (which is right in the center of Selma) and we = re going to hold up our signs and we = re going to say please, we want to vote. He said if you can = t take taunts, if you can = t take being prodded with a cattle prod, if you feel like you = ve got to return, somebody hits you [and] you have to hit them back, please don = t go. We = ve got to hold the moral high ground because the constitution = s on our side, the Lord is on our side. He was just absolutely magnificent in his appeal. P: Was this during the time that you and your colleague were there?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 65 M: The second time I went back. He had arrived. He was not there when we went first, he was on his way there and that = s why Smitherman, the mayor, said keep him out of town that = s what you can do. We said we can = t do that. P: How long was the interval between your first and second visits? M: About a week. P: You in a sense except for this specific event, you could pretty much predict there would be something happening in Selma, that it = d center on Selma. M: We saw that the power structure of the Whites, the registrar, the sheriff, simply were not going to accommodate people and they just did not want the Blacks to vote, that was the story, and they didn = t want the poor Whites to vote either. P: You reported that to the Community [Relations] Service? M: Yes we did. But we reported that we di d have this communication between them and we thought something might be worked out, but that was optim istic. The marches began and they started at Brown Chapel and then well-dressed, well-behaved Bl acks held signs saying please, we want to vote, and they stood around the chapel, stood around the courthouse in the middle, and I saw these police with cattle prods and I wondered how they felt. I went up to one of the policeman and I said I want to know how that feels. He said ar e you in your right mind, I said I hope so. He said stick out your hand. I stuck out my hand and hit it with the cattle prod, and I thought my arm and shoulder were going to go over my head because it was a terrible jolt of electricity. That = s what they were doing to people that wouldn = t behave or wouldn = t get out of the way, in any way stop the demonstrations that they had. P: This second visit of yours, the march across the bridge, when was that in relation to your visit?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 66 M: I had returned to Randolph-Macon by that time. I had a full time teaching job and it was very controversial to be involved in this, but I will say for both William and Mary and especially for Randolph-Macon that we had presidents and deans who were totally sympathetic and totally supporting and they knew that I was responsible and would get these classes taught and would do that, as well as take the time to go to Selma. LeRoy Collins was the one who had and his daughters had all gone to Randolph-Macon. He pleaded me, as a matter of fact, to join the Community Relations Service. P: As a staffer? M: As a staffer, yes, and to leave Randolph-Macon. Because he said you = re very few in number and we need you. But teaching was my area and to be with that would mean uprooting the family and we were well-established here. I liked the college, we had high caliber students and wonderful colleagues and superb administrators. So I told hi m I thought I would be on call very gladly, but I couldn = t change positions at that time. P: Did you have other assignments with them? M: Oh yes. He was the one in Washington who sent us initially. I had gone to other places for the CRS. I had gone to Louisiana. P: Was that with another sociologist? M: Yes. The first Black who was head of an impor tant sociology department at the University of Louisville, and his name I can = t recall but I = m sure I = ll be able to find it in my notes somewhere. P: What took you to Louisiana? What wa s the assignment there and where did you go? M: When to a town called Houma where there was a three way segregation. There were the Whites and there were the Blacks, and there were act ually mixed people who liked to call themselves Indians. They did not want to have a thr ee way segregation. 1954 had been ten years earlier and

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SRC -10 Morland, page 67 they were supposed to desegregate their schools, but t hey were segregated. So we went in to try to talk to the superintendent of schools, we did. P: Where was this? M: This is in Houma, Louisiana. We also went to Baton Rouge which was having a similar difficulty and we talked with the people there, the superint endent and the principles, students, to try to find out why they were not moving toward desegregat ion and trying to get the students to go to the school nearest them regardless of their race. P: How long were you there for? M: About three or four days we spent in Louisiana. P: Were there return trips? M: We returned to Washington to give our reports. They took it from there. They had certain ways that they could bring pressure to bear and they were effective in that sense. But they had to know what the setting was, what the situation was, w hat they were up against, why there was difficulty. P: Did you find racial antagonism similar as you had found in Selma and other places? M: Oh yes. There was very strong antagonism. There were feelings, as I said last time, that separate but equal was the way to go. That it was best for Whites, it was best for Blacks, it was best for Indians. P: And that was what the Whites assumed or everybody assumed? That separate but equal proposition, that was the assumption of the Whites? M: Yes. P: But not everyone. M: No, not everyone. P: I mean not the Blacks.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 68 M: No. The Blacks wanted the freedom to go where they ... Because as one title I just recently read, it was separate but not equal. Of course that 1954 dec ision was so historic because it overthrew the Plessy v. Ferguson 1896 which said as long as facilities are equal, they can be separate. That was the kind of lynchpin that promot ed segregation. I know it did in Alabama and Birmingham. The whole thing was we are going to make things equal and of course you know the situation in Prince Edward County. P: You had other assignments with the CRS too. M: Yes. P: And some of those places were what? M: In Arkansas in a place called Eldorado, I think that was the name of it. I interviewed, as before, I was all by myself this time, and I tried to find out what the situation was and why they were having trouble desegregating. P: Desegregating the schools? M: Yes. It was all school desegregation at that time. The superintendent of the school said our problem is that the director of education in Arkansas is not from southern Arkansas, he = s from northern Arkansas and that = s why we = re having our difficulty. He doesn = t understand us down here. That, of course, was not the case at all, but it was given as that. P: You were accumulating samples of local system of segregation, local attitudes, and willingness to respond to the court orders and the new civil ri ghts act and other requirements. Did you find differences between these different localities and states? How did it compare in Virginia? M: It was comparable to Prince Edward County in a sense, but there was never anything like Massive Resistance. The Prince Edward County desegr egation was ordered... was that before 1954 or was it afterward?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 69 P: The case started in 1951 and it was concluded, the decision was made in 1954 as one of the five cases. M: That = s right. It went to Brown v. ... P: I was wondering about the compar ison between the four states you = re talking about: Louisiana, Arkansas, Alabama, and Virginia. Because you were accumulating, by this time and other experiences, you had accumulated quite a number of samples of cases or segregation, the way it was exercised. M: The similarities, I think, outweighed any differences. In Arkansas, you had Orville Faubus the governor, and I used to use this in my classes as the self-fulfilling prophecy. Faubus said our people are not going to stand by and allow Little Rock school to be integrated. They = re going to cause trouble, and you can see that they = re going to cause trouble. It was, in effect, predicting in a way that would make it come true. P: Did you have other assignments yet? Still other assignments with CRS? M: I went to White Sulphur Springs, but this was for the Legal Defense Fund under Thurgood Marshall to find out why they were having difficulty there. This was a little bit different because the... P: This was in West Virginia? M: It was in West Virginia, but the Black princi ple did not want his school to be disrupted and he was very much opposed to Blacks who were invited to go to the White school. The Whites were upset because we have our annual dinner dance at the resort there B I forget the name of it right away, but it = s one of the best known in the U.S., it = s a beautiful gorgeous place B because they won = t accept Blacks, so they didn = t want integration. It was a separat e unique sort of situation. [End of Tape 3, side A]

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SRC -10 Morland, page 70 M: Massive Resistance is a good reference because that was where all the problem came, right out of Harry Flood Byrd. P: Yes indeed. M: People would say that Virginia is of the Byrds, by the Byrds, and for the Byrds. You remember that? P: Yes indeed. I also spoke with a person one time who was a welfare client of mine when I was a public assistance worker, and he had written some little quips and sardonic comments about the Byrd machine, and in reference to the Cold Wa r, he referred to Virginia being behind the Apple Curtain. M: [Laugh] The Apple Curtain. P: Because of these apple orchards . M: Yeah, that = s where Byrd comes... they lived up in Winchester. P: And he imported immigrant workers and so forth. We = re on tape four here and I = m with Ken Morland once again. We = re continuing our conversation. We had been talking last time I think about your exploits and adventures with Community Relations Service headed by LeRoy Collins at the time. This was about 1964. Was this a part of the Civil Rights Act? Was it a provision in the Civil Rights Act? M: Yes, it was Title Ten of 1964 Civil Rights Ac t, which created the Community Relations Service designed to help communities adjust to desegregation. P: You told us a little bit about your visit to Selma and what you found and what it portended. A few weeks later was the march across the Pettus Bridge was it? How long after your visit was that the case?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 71 M: I had been in Selma almost a week and we seemed to be getting some kind of harmony between the leaders in the Black community and in the White community. Martin Luther King and others looked upon Selma as a place where they could be heard and attract a great deal of attention primarily because of the sheriff, Jim Clark, of that county. P: Right from central casting? M: Right, he was perfect. He wouldn = t speak to those others from the Community Relations Service. P: He wouldn = t speak at all to you? M: No, he would not have anything to do with us. P: You called for appointments? M: We called for appointments and he said no appoint ment with anybody related to the federal government. P: But there were soft spots elsewhere in the town. M: Yes, Wilson Baker talked to us a lot and said we can get this settled, but he implied that Jim Clark who had greater strength than he had B now Wilson Baker was the head of security, I forget how that worked, in Selma B but Selma was in a county and was the sheriff of the county and of the city as well, so he really had much more power than Wilson Baker. P: I see. So about how long after you left did t he march across the bridge and the confrontation with the sheriff occur, do you recall? M: About two or three days after I left. I remember seeing on television the march, I think John Lewis was there and Martin Luther King and Ralph Abernat hy, and once I got over on the other side of the Alabama bridge, over the Pettus Bridge, they were met by Al Lingo who was head of the state police and they were told to stop and they st opped more or less, but then Lingo and his troops waited in and hit these defenseless people with thei r clubs and drove them back over the bridge.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 72 They were bloody and knocked out, all on television. So I said to myself and to my friends, we are going to have a civil rights act on voting, and it = s probably going to be punitive in terms of the South, it = s going to be harsh. We could have done it another way, but no way now. P: [What] did you think the resolution would have been? How could it have gone another way? Who would have been figured in that? Could the feds do something different or could the local people have done something different? M: I think the local power group, the registrar, the mayor, and then with help of Wilson Baker, now they would have had trouble with Jim Clark, t hey could have sat down and they determined the rules or who was eligible to vote. There were so many rules. There was the poll tax, there was the ability to pass an impossible kind of questionnaire, how many panes of glass are there in the White House for example? If you didn = t know that, you weren = t fit to vote. P: That was on the test for Alabama at the time or for that county? M: Just for that county. P: You sort of offered a warning didn = t you, to the feds ? M: I think we did, the ones with whom I worked in the Community Relations Service, that this needs to be done, [and] if not it will be done in a harsh wa y rather than what I would consider as an Alabamian, a less strict, strenuous way. P: Did your word and observations get back to LeRoy Collins at the time? Was there a role for him to... M: He agreed with this. He thought that there c ould be a settlement. But of course LeRoy Collins = great triumph there was to keep Martin Luther King and his group from marching to Montgomery again, a second time. The first time, of course, t hey just got across the bridge. But the federal judge in Montgomery, Frank B I know his name very well because I just read an entire book about

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SRC -10 Morland, page 73 him, he is an Alabamian, he is from North Alabama B he declared an injunction against any march until things could be worked out that they would know what kind of march it would be. It turned out to be an exceedingly wise decision. King said my people want me to march and we just got to march. LeRoy Collins was able to work with Andrew Young and with Jack Greenberg and they came up with a plan of how many people would be in the march, how much of the highway would be left for cars, where would there be rest stops? They couldn = t make it in one day, where would they stay and how would they keep warm during the ni ght and what if there were rain? All of these things were worked out and it was Collins getting Andr ew Young who was the strategist there. As I said last time, Martin Luther King was a great or ator. He could inspire people, he could talk to them. I listened to him again and again in Brow n Chapel and I was ready to go, although that wasn = t my role. On the other hand, he did not rea lize that if he went against the federal judge, they would have imprisoned him and the whole movement would have been set back. P: They would have lost the apparent support of the federal government? M: That = s right. P: One of the things that was important was t he counterbalance between the strength of the federal government standing behind the civil rights movem ent for voting and for public accommodations and the rest, and the local recalcitrance all over the South. Was that the case? M: That was the case. Of course, what happened in our attempt to get Selma itself to do something about it did not work out once King came in and once that march was on television and they were brutally assaulted. It attracted people from all over. I can remember one of my students saying I can = t go to class, I = ve got to go down to Selma and march. P: We sent a student from MCV , one of our nursing students, who went there and was brutally beated, was jailed, returned home, returned to MCV and then she was punished for being absent.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 74 M: I hadn = t realized... I knew that the woman from Detro it was shot and killed, but they got the KKK that did it. Also, there was a unitarian minister w ho was assaulted on the streets, I think it was after dark, and killed. So there were two people who lost their lives because of that. P: I = m not totally clear. Was the fact that the march persisted a good thing or was it untoward thing do you think? M: The fact that they worked out a compromise that King would lead a march across the bridge, but when they got to the end of the bridge they would kneel in prayer. Interestingly, this time Al Lingo who was head of the state police had his troops parked because he wanted them to go on to Montgomery and break the law that override that injunction by the federal judge because that would have been a victory for them. But this was the plan worked out by Jack Greenberg and Andrew Young with the LeRoy Collings help and blessing. P: So the NAACP legal defense fund had a part in planning some of the civil rights marches and so on? M: They had an indispensable part. P: So Jack Greenberg was important in sort of the conceptual plans and so forth? M: Definitely, yes. P: Dr. King and the others, Andy Young and the others, Reverend Abernat hy and all the rest, did they listen and respect the lawyers? M: Very reluctantly. They wanted to go ahead. Interestingly, once the plan had been approved by the federal judge, and they organized carefully routed ma rch was set up, then things went smoothly to Montgomery, but the judge wanted to know whether he had followed this to the letter and that he was not planning to break that injunction to go agai nst his ruling. King said no, we were not.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 75 P: Was it the first march that they ended up just across the bridge and they c onfronted the state police and the local sheriffs? M: The first march was almost spontaneous, it wasn = t very well planned. They went across the bridge and they were beaten and television showed the whole thing. P: They dispersed after that one? M: The next one was carefully planned in order to take care of two opposing positions. One was to go all the way to Montgomery, the other was to obey the federal judge. What they did was to cross the bridge, stop and kneel in prayer, and then return to Selma. P: So this was the second march. M: This was the second [march]. P: And the planned march. The first march was, as you said, spontaneous and that = s when the horrendous beating at the front of the line [took place ]. At that point, did they disperse? Did they back up? M: Oh yes. The marchers ran wherever they c ould get away from those clubs. John Lewis was brutally hurt in that. P: The second march, did the court enter in this th ing after the first march? Is that when there was a ruling? M: Yes. Well, he said no more marches until there is a plan to do it, but in the mean time, King had a lot of pressure put on him. Said look, we = ve got to show them that we really want this vote. So he was caught between two forces: the NAACP Legal Defense Fund with Jack Greenberg there and with Andrew Young, and the SCLC. They worked out a plan that was acceptable to the judge. P: So SCLC and NAACP Legal Defense Fund, they were very cooperative at this point were they not? At least in this particular demonstration.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 76 M: I would say they were reluctantly cooperative to make this compromise of stopping and turning and going back without attempting to go all the way to Montgomery, and then to get the approval for a march that was carefully planned where there woul d be rest stops, where the highway would not be too crowded. It was stipulated how many people could be on the highway at one time. P: There had been some talk about NAACP and SCLC having their own agendas and not always being congruent. Did you see evidence of that? M: Oh yes. There was a struggle within both of those movements, but somehow they were able to workout a compromise and I think that saved the day. P: What do you think of the outcome. The way it came off, we had footage for the nation to see and the European press and everywhere in the world to see what American democracy looked like, it = s warts and all, and now what was the bottom line? How long was it before they the vote and the poll tax assailed and all the rest? Looking back, was it successful the way it turned out? M: I think it was successful the way it turned out. I think it could have been done differently, but maybe I = m unrealistic there. [Thurgood] Mars hall would have done it differently. P: Where was he at this time? He wa s not in the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. M: He was not directly involved because there we re not arrests made and people put in prison, they were just beaten back. P: Jack Greenberg had been appointed his successor or was he just on the location? M: In the book that Jack wrote called Crusaders in the Courts , there were about nine crusaders, we can call them, and he was one of them. So he was down there appointed by Marshall to help workout some kind of plan so that this could go smoothly. Don = t go against that judge, he said, that judge has been on our side in every event, but the judge is right, you cannot just have a march without some careful planning.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 77 P: So Thurgood Marshall was a stickler for following the law. M: Absolutely. He said, I heard him say it, if I didn = t have to spend so much time getting Martin Luther King and his followers out of jail, I would be able to get a lot more done down [there]. Whether that = s the case or not I = m not sure, but I lean in the direction of Marshall because Marshall said the constitution is on our side. The Declaration of Independence is on our side. What we need are good cases which show that we ar e not following the spirit of the constitution, we = re not following the ideals of the constitution. If we can get those cases in court, and of course that = s what he did in the 1954 decision. As you know, there were the five, and you = re familiar certainly with Prince Edward, and I = m familiar with the one in Wilmington. P: He was still with the Legal Defense Fund at the time, Marshall was? M: Yes he was. P: But several of them were down there in Selma during this episode participating in the case. Was the case over a permit to march or something like t hat? What was the issue that took it to court and got that federal judge to make or approve the plan for the march = s course? M: I = m not sure what the process was. I don = t know whether his permission was asked or whether his advice was asked, but somehow, he handed down a ruling that no march could take place until a careful plan had been worked out. P: Did the state of Alabama enter an attempt to obstruct that? M: The state of Alabama with, I think either J ohn Patterson or George Wallace was governor and they were opposed to any kind of integration. As George Wallace said in one of his campaigns, segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregat ion forever. But he changed, he changed quite dramatically. P: He begged for an apology many years later.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 78 M: He did, he said he was wrong. P: Very few have attempted to apologize in a public way. M: Of course, he was shot in Maryland and was in intense pain for the rest of his life. P: How about Governor Patterson, what did you know about him? M: Just as rigidly segregationist as I think any elected official had to be in Alabama at the time. P: Were there other things that you think ar e interesting in the Selma case that we haven = t thought about? M: Not really. It does pose the question that we can = t avoid and that is can you get change through the courts without violating the law, without hav ing marches, without having confrontation, without having even non-violent resistance can bring about violence. P: Put more fundamentally it = s asked that in America, do we hav e the capacity within the law and the constitution to bring out change when we get new information about an injustice? M: I think if you compare the 1954 decision by the Supreme Court B which as I said before is generally recognized and I would certainly agree, as the single most important decision made by the Supreme Court during the 1900s B if you look at the way that was obtained with Thurgood Marshall = s careful orchestrating and choosing quite wisely specific cases to help with the final decision. Marshall and the Legal Defense Fund had people from all over saying come and help us, come and help us, but he couldn = t help everybody. So he carefully chose those particular areas, one in South Carolina, Clarendon County I think, Pr ince Edward County, the one in D.C., and the one in Wilmington... P: Wilmington, Delaware, and the one in Kansas. M: Yes, that = s right, Kansas, of course. They were all brought up on the Kansas, right. And this made a very wide range showing not only that your separation was not equal, but also that it would

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SRC -10 Morland, page 79 be impossible under the circumstances to make it equal. That is Jack Greenberg was a spearhead bringing in social scientists, Kenneth Clark pr imarily, and Jack Greenberg wrote me and asked me if I would participate in the Wilmington trial. P: Did this and other events in your experience s uggest to you that within the American system, there is the capacity through the courts and through electo ral politics to gain justice no matter what the odds? Or does there have to be in some, I think a paraphrase of Jefferson would just say, would be that if a government is unjust you can overthrow it. Which of those sides? Would you go to that kind of Jefferson idiom there or would you go along with Thurgood Marshall = s view of how to get justice in America. M: I would stay with Marshall. The problem is whether we could have gotten segregation changed in actually without King is the big thing that haunt s me because I saw the constitution and the support that was given to the 1954 decision work. On the ot her hand, it took a great effort to get certain schools desegregated... P: Many years. M: Regardless of what that law was, and it because of course the law of the land, was that you could not have legally segregated schools. That public schools had to be open not on the basis of race but on some other basis. P: Maybe this would be a good time to ask you, given the time of the 1954 Supreme Court decision and the fact that it created great upheaval in so m any ways, do you think the outcome of that had a lot to do with the final America = s examining public accommodations and employment and a variety of other fronts where White supremacy was in effe ct and discrimination the order of the day. Do you think there was some inspiration or some energy that came from the school = s decision that

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SRC -10 Morland, page 80 went on to impact other fronts. In other word s, the 1954 Supreme Court decision was not just about education. What did you think of that? M: I think the 1954 decision was the great break through. It touched America and democracy at its heart. It touched it at its public schools and said these public schools cannot be forcefully segregated. It = s not a question of whether even if they = re equal as the Plessy v. Ferguson 1896 decision said and which was, I think, a tragic th ing because it led the states that wanted to segregate anything as long as they were equal. Of course, they were not equal or in some cases they so overdid it in order to prove that things were equal. But I think that breakthrough led to the recognition that if we = re going to have equal opportunity and equal treatment, we = ve got to open up everything. We = ve got to open up restaurants, theater s, transportation, and all the other aspects of public life, and to do it without regard to race. P: So it was something of an influence on ________? M: It was more than an influence, it was experienc e that people so feared, but they realized well, [desegregation] is going to be okay B integregation or desegregation, sometimes we differentiate between those but I think it = s a mind a matter. It is a fact that if Blacks and Whites or whoever can get to know each other as individuals and not through stereotypes which segregation would require to do, then we can move together to a gr eater equality for all Americans, which is our ideal after all. P: You took other assignments from the Communi ty Relations Service. One was in Louisiana and where were some of the others? M: One was in Arkansas. P: One was in West Virginia?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 81 M: In West Virginia, I went to White Sulphur Springs because Thurgood Marshall telephoned me and asked me if I would go over and find out what was going on because they were having a lot of trouble with integrating the schools, desegregat ing them, and my blessed president and dean, I went to see them and said the NAACP has called on me to go, how is it going to be? They said you go ahead if you can get your classes covered. P: Who was the president at the time? M: Bill Quillian, he = s still here. He became president almost t he same time that I joined the faculty. P: So that was really a request from the NAACP? M: Yes. P: How about other assignments? Were ther e notable events in the Louisiana or Arkansas assignments? M: These were I think a great thing for the federal government to do. It wasn = t we = ll cram this down your throats, it was look, if we sit down and ta lk about this and work at this, try to understand it particularly from many angles, we can be successful and we = re here to enable you to do that. This was appreciated in the places in Loui siana, the place called Houma had a three way segregation of schools and the so-called Indians who were really a mixture of Black, White, and Indian. P: Was this in the north or south of Louisiana? M: It was in southern Louisiana. They were put in separate schools and they didn = t want that. Also, there was a case I went to in Columbia, South Carolina, I went there for the Southern Regional Council. They were taking what they called the... there was a mixed group and there was three way segregation in that case.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 82 P: What happened when you went there? What was your assignment and did you have some colleagues with you or you went on your own? M: Sometimes with a colleague, sometimes by myself. I went to Columbia, South Carolina by myself. I had done my field study for my doctorate not fa r from Columbia so I was fairly familiar with people in Columbia. I = m trying to think of the name of the ones who were put in a third school, and I = m trying to get the chronology straight. P: Wouldn = t be Creole? M: No, that was in Louisiana. P: The third in South Carolina? They had three-way also? M: They claimed they were from a shipwreck and t hey were somewhat different from everybody else. P: In southern South Carolina there were east Indians early on. Could they have them? M: I think Indians were involved in that mixture and the Whites who were sort of outside of the group and Black as well. Virginia has its colony called... P: The Malungeons are one, Portuguese and Indian and African American. M: When I first came to Lynchburg we called them the issues and they didn = t like that at all, so they = re now called the Amherst Indians, but they are given equal treatment in schools because of the ruling of 1954. P: You = re Louisiana and Arkansas and Columbia, South Caro lina visits, what kind of things did you do when you went there? Pick one of those that would be interesting for us to hear and tell us what you did when you went there, how long did it take? M: Let = s take the case in Arkansas. I was asked to go there by the Community Relations Service. I rode ahead to talk to the principal, to ask for an appointment to speak to him and they were anxious to do something because they were having trouble.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 83 P: What kind of trouble? What wa s your purpose of being assigned there? M: The problem was integrating school and on what bas is they would do it. There were some Blacks that wanted no integration at all, as well as some Whites that didn = t want integration of course. There were two places I went to in Arkansas , one called El Dorado and not far from that was a small town called Smackover. P: What year would this have been? M: About 1966. That the year actually I went to Hong Kong on a Fulbright, but I did this in the Spring and I left Hong Kong in the fall. It was in the area of 1965, 1966, maybe 1966. P: So you got there and you visited the superintendents of schools you say? M: I talked to the mayor of each town; I talked to the principals of each of the schools involved; I talked to teachers; I talked to groups of students; and I talked to people in the town and I found out that one of the best ways to find people who had time on their hands was to go to a doctor = s or a dentist = s office. Say I = m from outside and I heard this is happening, what = s your view of it, what goes on? I think they were glad to get their minds off the coming dentistry. P: And the old magazines in the office. M: [Laugh] That = s right, the old magazines. They didn = t have to read those. Most of them were very cooperative and I wasn = t pushing them. I didn = t have a pad or pencil, I had to rush back and try to record everything in my mind that I could w hen I went back to the motel or wherever I was staying. But this is a kind of pattern I followed in each town. P: You described a public meeting at one occasion, on one of these visits. Am I recalling correctly? M: Yes, there was a public meeting in which people who wanted to could come and talk about how they felt about things. P: Where was this one, this public meeting?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 84 M: This was done in Arkansas. P: One of those two towns. M: Yes, one of those two towns. P: They advertised that they were goi ng to have a discussion about desegregation and people showed up? M: They wanted a community gathering about the sc hools, this was usually the way, how do we strengthen our educational situation. But everybody knew that really the difficulty was with integration. P: Did you speak at some of those? M: Not as a rule, I did not. P: I saw one article that said an anthropologist came , and they were referring to you, in a public meeting. Do you recall what that was? M: This was in Jackson, Mississippi and I was wo rking with the Southern Regional Council. The women of Jackson, Mississippi, where I was, were determined that they were not going to have their school disrupted. They were going ahead and have the schools desegregated. Interestingly, it was a tactic that was purposely used bec ause when the women would get involved and say we = re not going to shut down our public schools like they did in Prince Edward County, we = re going to hold on to them, the husbands going to work wi th other men would ask them what is it with your wife getting involved? And he would say you = re married, can you do anything with your wife? So the idea was that the women who, at that ti me, were not in the workforce outside of the home had greater freedom of movement and the men who agreed with them actually had some protection. They kept saying over and over if Mississippi is going to get anywhere at all, it = s got to have strong public education and we = re not going to spoil our public education, this was the whole

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SRC -10 Morland, page 85 thing. I did speak to a group that the wom en had invited at a schoolhouse I remember, at the auditorium. It was a big crowd and I talked about integration and I talked about race, I talked about American ideals, but I was told very quietly by the woman in whose home I was staying the Klu Klux Klan = s in the back row and the White Citizens Council is all over the front row. So I kept an eye on them and they kept an eye on me. In every case, I tried to be not confrontational. P: What year was that meeting? That was in Jackson, and that was a Southern Regional Council assignment. M: That would be after 1954 and probably before 1964. It was in that period of time, the late 1950s that I did a lot of my work, and the early 1960s. P: So you really took assignments. You were a stringer for the NAACP, for the Southern Regional Council, and then later on after the Civil Rights Act to the Community Relations Service of the federal government. Did you take on similar a ssignments, community relations and inquiries about community capacity to desegregate and to get the pulse ? M: There was one other group, the Po tomac Institute invited me. As a matter of fact, they asked me to do a booklet with them on Token Desegregation and Beyond. I think you = ve seen a copy of that. It was done in conjunction with B = nai B = rith, which is a Jewish organization, and they paid me a certain stipend to just sit down and look at all that was going on and look at the extent of desegregation, what areas were resistant, what ar eas were not resistant, what caused resistance, and what contributed to acceptance of the law. That = s what I tried to do. P: During this period of 1954 to 1964, you were r eally doing community studies, little mini studies throughout the South for these four organizations : the Potomac Institute, NAACP Legal Defense Fund, the SRC, and the Community Relations Serv ice. You were their handyman in the field, right?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 86 M: I was one. P: Who were some of the others? M: Mac Seagrist was from South Carolina and the head of t he department at Louisville was also with me, and then of course LeRoy Collins had a staff once the Selma group developed. So there were several of us who were involved, who saw each other. It was hard to balance your teaching position and your counseling of students, they came first. On the other hand, the administrators at my school said this is a historic occasion and you can help so we = ll do everything we can to make sure you are able to do this without too much criticism. We got a lot of criticism. I was in President Quillian = s office, he had a very thick folder in his hand and he put another letter, he said Morland, I just got another complaint about you. P: From parents or from citizens? M: From alumni and parents and from people anywher e, but mainly those that had some connection with the schools. P: How about in the community? Did you run into trouble or threats or any form of intimidation? M: A great deal of intimidation, but this is another st ory. It came later. It was the result of my being with the Southern Regional Council in Atlanta and the decision we made there that we can = t be effective having just one office in Atlanta. We need to have every state with the Community Relations Council. So we formed on in Virginia. P: Community Relations Council. M: That = s right. It was done at Union University. I can remember the people on the board. We had a number of different meetings and talk ed about what was going on in Virginia. P: What year was that that that decision was made at SRC?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 87 M: That decision was made in... I = m not sure. The thing that interferes with it is the year long stay in Hong Kong between 1966 and 1967. I can remember returning from Hong Kong and speaking to the ministerial association here. P: Didn = t the Virginia Council on Human Relations originate earlier than 1966? Much earlier. M: I = m not sure, I would have to check. P: Did every state have one? M: Every state in the South had one. Then we decided well, you can = t have one just in the state, you need one in the community. P: Localities. M: So I said okay, I have some friends and we = ll form one in Lynchburg. We had about seventy, eighty people. We thought we could meet in chur ches and schools. No place would permit us to meet except the Unitarian Church here in Lynchburg. I can remember there = s a history of the Unitarian Church which gives a good long section to the Lynchburg chapter of Human Relations. P: The Richmond-Petersburg chapter encountered t he same thing, but there were a few Black localities, Black sites that were allowed to hold meetings, but the public accommodations ________... M: I wrote for permission to the head of the Unitar ian Church and said it looks like nobody else is going to have us, will you let us meet in your chur ch? They took a vote of the membership and the membership was united, no dissent. We said what about heat and light we want to take care of those [things]. No, we = ll take care of them for you and we = ll allow you to serve refreshments after the meeting. [End of Tape 4, side A] P: [You] were talking about the Lynchburg chapter...

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SRC -10 Morland, page 88 M: Lynchburg chapter of Virginia Council on Hum an Relations. We had decided that just having a center in Richmond B and we were very active because I can remember we were invited to respond to Governor Lindsey Almond = s speech that he was going to make, and we assumed it would be 100 percent Massive Resistance. But his speech, as we waited to respond, was quite different. He said we can no longer be out of st ep with the rest of the nation. We cannot have Massive Resistance prevent schools from being des egregated. Harry Byrd never forgave him for that. P: Was this 1959? When was this? Because before that, he had gone along with the Massive Resistance. M: Oh yes, yes he had, all the time. As a matte r of fact, I have some correspondence with Lindsey Almond. P: You do? M: I do, and I congratulated him. I told him what a courageous thing it was for him to do. What they wanted to move to was not required schooling for everybody, they could just go to the school if they wanted to. I remember my response from the Virginia Council on Human Relations is that that would mean that the children who needed schooling most of all probably would not get it. It had to be required. I went to my mill village experienc e to say how many of the children had dropped out of school in order to go into the mill and had not been able to fulfill their potential. We did things on a statewide basis like that. Then we decided every community that wished to should form a chapter of Virginia Council on Human Relations . So I gathered about eight people at the Lodge of the Fisherman where you were the other night. P: Was it called that back then? Wa s it called the Lodge of the Fisherman?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 89 M: Yes, it was called Lodge of the Fisherman. I can remember sitting around that table and about five Blacks and about five Whites. We agreed that we should have a group here. P: Do you remember the year that was? M: I = m no tsure. P: The Lodge of Fisherman = s right there on Rivermont Avenue here in Lynchburg. M: Yes, it = s off Boonsboro actually because Rivermont becomes Boonsboro. It has the multiple acres that the Cosby family turned into a camp for inner city children, a day camp, and you didn = t get to meet Bev Cosby. He died about th ree weeks ago, wonderful person. I said we = re going to need some offices, who will be willing to be president of this? They all turned to me and said well you got us together, you be president. So I was president the first year; Bev Cosby the second year; Virgil Wood, a Black, the third year. P: Do you recall the year you did th is, this chapter, foundation, formation? M: I would have to look it up to be sure. Those dates slip me. P: There were other chapters in the state, and then other states had their local chapters and they because something of a network and lots of people later in the 1960s began to connect and lots of good research came out of the Southern Regional Council and you were deeply involved in that weren = t you? M: Yes. P: You were one of their most well used researchers weren = t you. M: Right. You helped in that survey that became a part of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. I = m not positive what part, I = d have to look at the whole act to see, and I = d have to look at the study that we came up with, the results of the survey.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 90 P: You published several booklets and papers associat ed with that were produced and distributed by Southern Regional Council. They were widely used, weren = t they, for planning and strategy and so forth? M: I = d like to think they were. Some of my students from Atlanta and from Texas said I saw this pamphlet of yours. I think I = m getting behind or ahead, I = m not sure which, but I was asked to go to Texas B this would be before 1964, before desegregation was required by law B to find out how San Antonio and Galveston and Corpus Christi desegr egated their lunch counters. So I went down and ate in every lunch counter, [San Antonio] I = d go, and the other. P: San Antonio and Galveston and... M: Corpus Christi. I would ask the manager of each of them how did you do this? I would talk to the customers who were coming in how do you feel about eating at the c ounter and desegregating the counter. I wrote up that. P: The Southern Regional Counc il gave you that assignment? M: They did. P: So you wrote this up and its intenti on was to instruct other communities? M: Exactly. What each of these communities said was you know if one of us desegregates we = re going to lose a lot of customers, but if we a ll desegregate at the same time, the customers won = t have anywhere else to go and that = s exactly the way it worked out, that = s what happened. A lot of people were angry, those who were regular custom ers, but some of them said well we have to eat with Mexicans anyhow so it = s not all that bad. P: This raises a question about the nature of changes in racial relationships, especially during the desegregation period. Was there a critical ma ss point where segregation could be dismantled based on everybody getting together and not having to take personal blame for desegregating if

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SRC -10 Morland, page 91 you were a restaurant so that there was a kind of a point if you could get everybody together, then nobody would be blamed. It suggests something that segregation didn = t have an underpinning of ideology that was so fixed that it was kind of a facade or teetering structure that all you had to do was push hard, everybody push hard t ogether, that would fall over. Does that resonate with you as you looked at how changed happened in the South, especially with public accommodations in schools? M: There were individuals who said we = re not being fair, we = re not giving equal opportunity, we = re not providing equal facilities and it = s holding us back. We are, as a region, hurting ourselves. We = re not using all of our talent. We = re spending so much time duplicating facilities rather than trying to forget about these racial and ethnic differences and just move ahead and do what needs to be done, but they were in a minority. I think in my studies, people realized it was going to happen, but they were going to prevent it as long as they could, as long as they could breathe. P: What proportion of people do you think wanted to pr event it versus the proportion that might just be prepared to go either way versus the propor tion that were pushing hard for desegregation? M: I think the majority wanted to maintain segr egation. They responded very positively to George Wallace = s declaration of segregation today, tomorrow, and forever. The people who were in college and had a college education, those who had had contact with those of other races B and this happened on both sides of the divide B they wanted to move ahead and get rid of all the stigma, get rid of the necessity of having people si t in certain places on the street cars or the busses, or go to schools in terms of what race or ethnic background they had. These were, I would say, in a minority without any question. We were in a minority in Lynchburg, for example. We had integrated meetings, we could not meet in any ot her place. We tried to have our annual dinner at the YMCA here, and the [YMCA] has generally been pretty open I thought, but I was told

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SRC -10 Morland, page 92 confidentially, we = re just getting ready to have a big drive to get our funds raised and if we start integrating, or if we have you all down here for dinner, it will ruin our campaign. The people in churches in would say, it = s all right with me, but there are so many other people in here that would be upset and we just soon you not meet here. But the Unitarians, very different. They welcomed us very warmly and they came into the group in a disproportionate number. Our group of the Lynchburg chapter of the Virginia Council on Hum an Relations was made up primarily of teachers from Randolph-Macon, from Sweet Br iar, and from Lynchburg College. P: There was no Liberty University at the time. M: No Liberty University at the time, no. Thomas Old Baptist was founded in 1956, the same time our little church was founded, it has 20,000 members now. We = re still around 150 or 200, but they were not involved. P: Now in other states, did you see some uniformitie s from state to state dur ing your travels and your studies in the states such as Arkansas and Mississippi and Louisiana and Virginia? Was the process of desegregation similar, or are t here distinctive things to be said about... M: It would require more studying than I have. With the law having changed, the law itself is instructed. This is one of the things we used to talk about when we talked about segregation. If people grow up in a segregated situation where it is r equired by law, it has the sanctity of law, then it = s going to be followed, it has to be followed. You have to sit in the White section of the bus which was in the front section, or the back section if it were in the street cars. Diane McWhorter who wrote Carry Me Home to Birmingham spoke of Whites sitting in the backs of the streetcars. I grew up sitting in the back and never felt any humiliation or depravation because of it. P: But the back was not the stigmatized portion of t he bus, was it? Whereas in Richmond, the back of the bus was a stigmatized person and no self-r especting White would be seen back there.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 93 M: No one under the law could go back there if he were White, and no one under the law if you were Black could go in the front part of the bus unless t here were so many Blacks that they were taking up seats and they could move toward the front with those seats, or so many Whites they could move toward the back. In Birmingham, there was not a rigid sectioning. They had movable, I think I mentioned this before, White this side, color ed only. If there were more Blacks who needed seats and they were in the front, they would move those plaques right on up so the Blacks could sit in them. P: Let = s go back now to the 1940s after WWII. You found yourself in graduate school at UNC Chapel Hill. Remind me again what year that you were there at Chapel Hill? M: I was there from 1947 to 1949. I spent one year taking classes, twelve months, one year in the field of South Carolina, and I had enough of my courses at Yale Divinity School and I had taken some on the side at Yale University that counted so that I completed my doctorate in two years. P: My, my. That = s a record. M: Interestingly, John Gillin who was my super visor, an anthropologist, promised me $100 bonus if I could get my dissertation typed up and ready by September. Margaret and I, in her home, had a typewriter each and in those days they were manual typewriters and when you got to the end it would ding so you = d know it was over and you could flip it back. We stayed almost round the clock on those typewriters. We were determi ned, we needed desperately that $100, but next door to them lived a very prominent lawyer. P: Next door to who? M: Next door to Margaret where we were doing t he doing the typing. This was her home in Mountain Brook in Birmingham. P: I see.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 94 M: Frances Hare was next door as probably the leading lawyer in Birmingham. One way or the other he found out that we were doing this typing B this was before we had air conditioning, the windows were up B and he said he would lie there and try to sleep and he kept hearing this ding, ding and he just thought he was going mad, he just couldn = t figure what it really was so he was greatly relieved. But we got that finished for Gillin in time. P: And you got the $100? M: We got the $100. P: What a treasure chest you took off with you. So you had gone back home to Birmingham to finish some of the dissertation details? M: I had notes and we just had to write it up as a dissertation. P: You say we, it sounds like you had some good assistance. M: I had first rate assistance with Margaret. P: She, being a literary... I = ve forgotten the word. I think it = s an Italian word that speaks of talented literary figure. So she was a budding writer herself, right? M: And also had spent six months in York, South Ca rolina with me and as I said earlier, was able to attend bridal parties and visit with women and get to know them in a way that a male participant and observer could not do. So it was done together and that comes out very nicely in this Southern Cultures article that John Shelton Reed came to interview us about. P: So you finished the dissertation and graduated and were a fresh PhD in anthropology. What year was that? M: I actually was awarded the degree in 1950 and Mar garet held back on her masters in English until 1951. But I was given a position by a colleague at UNC. He had been teaching at William and

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SRC -10 Morland, page 95 Mary and he had come to complete his degree, and so he invited us to go to William and Mary which we did. That was my first teaching job and, beginning in the Fall of 1949. P: But you got the degree in 1950? M: Yes. It was virtually completed, but the co mmittee could not sit down with me and quiz me about that particular part of my study. P: Going back to that period between 1945 and 1950 where you were in graduate school and so forth, let me pain a scenario. Blacks and other minoritie s had served in the military in WWII. They had gone abroad to fight for democracy and prove their patriotism and courage. They were fighting fascism and fighting for democracy. When the war was over and you had this keen interest in race relations at that point, I mean you were very sens itive to these relationships at this point, and you looked around the South particularly, across the c ountry, what is it you saw among minorities? Was there a rising tide of expectations among Bla cks and other minorities that was later to feed into the intensified civil rights activiti es? What did you see at that time? M: I know a lot of us who were White felt that we were hypocritical on the one hand, and asking and recruiting and drafting Blacks to fight a war for democracy, but not giving them the benefits of democracy. Whenever our groups came together both White and mixed say, this was expressed in no uncertain terms. Whenever I had a chance to speak, which I did pretty often, I talked about the contradictory situation we had in this country that we were fighting fascism and communism. We were fighting totalitarian countries, but we our selves were not true to our beliefs or to our democracy and we were hurting ourselves because were wasting talent of Blacks and of Whites by trying to maintain this separation.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 96 P: Did you see any difference in Black = s attitudes toward returning to this country and to segregation? Did you see any rising expectations among them as you traverse these communities and so forth? M: The difficulty is the Blacks with whom Whites were associated tended to be in the lower classes, low income, low education. I think again the leadership of Blacks came from those who were college students, those who were from higher income families, those at Miles College, for example, in Birmingham would be among the ones that would be disturbed, but of course some of us who were White were just as disturbed. I didn = t see any kind of rising tide of expectation among the Blacks. They had been so accustomed to the demands of segregation that I don = t think [they] thought about it much one way or the other. I think at time they would get angry, but most of the time they realized well we = ve got to live here and this is the way things are so we follow it. P: Your association with Black leadership to the ex tent that you were to have that opportunity, did you see any changes in their expectations now that there was this body of experience in WWII? Meanwhile, wasn = t it 1848 that the military wa s desegregated by Harry Truman? M: While I was in college, and this was 1934, 1938, also on up to 1941 when America went to war, Blacks were highly displeased with their enforced ca st-like separation. This was before they were asked to join in the war. They proved themselv es and one of the things they wanted to do was to show that they could be as brave and as good soldiers as anybody, and they proved this. A lot of Whites said it doesn = t matter what the color of the man is next to me as long as he = s helping me in this effort, that = s what counts most. I = m sure the rising tide expectation was there, but it didn = t take form until the laws were changed and unt il the NAACP Legal Defense Fund under Thurgood Marshall forced the desegregation of schools, forced the reversal of Plessy v. Ferguson , and then there was an even greater set of expectations. It = s going to happen in the schools, it = s going to

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SRC -10 Morland, page 97 happen everywhere that we Blacks are going to have the kind of education, the kinds of opportunities, the kind of treatm ent that everybody else has. P: Now it = s 1950, the fall of 1950 and you find yourself with Margaret, married and moving to Williamsburg, Virginia and to William and Mary, sec ond oldest institution of higher education with grand traditions. Tell me what it was like when you arrived there? M: We were given housing on Motoka Court in little boxes that had been moved up from worn out and used by the army in North Carolina no longer needed. So we had a pot-bellied stove in the front room and that was our cent ral heating, it was all the heating we had. We had wooden tubs for a sink, I remember mushrooms growing out of them, but we had good fertile ground in the back so we planted corn and potatoes and peas and other things. I did get my students to ask these questions of the Blacks and of the Whites. They did a kind of survey and one of the questions was why do you think we have separate schools? This was in 1951 I guess. The Whites would say because we are smarter and we are better and the Blacks are inferior. Blacks would say we = re here because the Whites think we = re inferior. P: This was a community survey done by your students in sociology and anthropology. Who was the president at the time? Do you remember? M: John Pomphard at William and Mary. P: And you were in a department of what size? M: There were three teachers all together. I was the sociologist/anthropologist, I was the anthropology part, and Wayne Kinodle was head of the department and he was the one in North Carolina that got me to go up there. He = s still at William and Mary, he = s retired of course. Jack Cantena , who later went to John = s Hopkins, very, very capable and able in the area of statistics and in the area of family sociology.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 98 P: Was it called the department of sociology and anthropology? M: We were sociology and anthropology. P: It was totally segregated at the time, was it not? M: In terms of faculty, administration, and st udents. The people who kept the place clean and the yards mowed and all were Blacks in every case, but you = re right, it was totally segregated. P: William and Mary was like UVA and Virginia Tech was the principle, maybe Mary Washington, among the public universities were the elite or presti ge places to go for Virginia families, were they not? M: Yes. Washington and Lee would be right up ther e as a school, a tuition supported school. For women, Holland = s and Randolph-Macon Women = s College and Sweet Briar were also very highly rated, but very expensive for individuals. P: I was thinking of the public school, public colleges , but it was as you may recall, a small proportion of Virginians of college age went to college in t hose days, very much like Mississippi. In fact, statistics showed that Mississippi was the only one that had fewer proportion of their college age students in college than Virginia. M: What year was that? P: In the early 1950s right on into the time when t here were higher education reform in Virginia. So what quality students did you have and what classes di d they come from, social classes or income levels? M: They came from upper income levels and they came from many other states as well as Virginia. There was a differential tuition rate, of course non-Virginians would have a higher rate, but William and Mary wanted to have students from states other than Virginia. They wanted them in Virginia, but also they wanted them elsewhere.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 99 P: What do you think were the most important c ontributions William and Mary was making at the time, and what were some of the projects you got into . Did you do any studies that you thought were significant while you were there? And how long were you there? M: Four years, 1949-1953. I came to Randolph-Mac on in 1953. We did some studies in sociology class, but I really didn = t get into those until later. There = s a whole book of them over there that my colleague at Randolph-Macon had written up and publis hed with tributes to the two of us, two main ones, in sociology and anthropology at Randolph-Macon. P: I = m speaking of William and Mary now. You = re speaking of later? M: I = m speaking of a later time, yes. We did some at William and Mary. Some participant observation I remember, studies of... Eastern State Ho spital was there. We did some studies of the attendants and the administration, but this wa s just an attempt to get our students to have some experience in actually gathering data in order to show the kinds of steps that were required, the difficulty, the use of measur ing instruments that had to be very carefully pretested. But we didn = t do a great many studies that could be writt en up I would say, except as term papers for those in the research class primarily. P: Were you students typical of the day? Sort of prejudiced and conforming to the prevailing racial attitudes of that time? M: Prejudice is a pretty hard thing to get at and to measure. Tthey would generally reflect the notion that it = s better to be separate, if you bring in Blacks you = ll pull the standards down, this was one of the lack of information [that] hurt a move to ward integration, and again the law was on the side of segregation. P: Did you find some students that were independent of this cultural norm and proved to be stars in your mind? Did any of them have careers in t he social sciences that you came to know about?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 100 M: From William and Mary I = m not sure. From Randolph-Macon yes, a number of them who got their doctorates in sociology and in anthropology and are teaching in various schools. P: So sociology and anthropology may not have been an important occupation in those days to students at William and Mary? M: Probably not. We were a legitimate major and interesting how students choose majors. I know one of the deans was quoted as saying you = ve tried these other things, try sociology, see if you like that, because the person obviously wasn = t getting along so well in other places. But our students were reasonable hard working. We had a beautiful campus, a whole lot of tourists. Williamsburg had just begun to blossom with the co mpany which was building central Williamsburg on Ducaclosta Street where the school began and whic h it moved on west of the city. P: You once told me many years ago that you enjoy ed a very generous salary there. Do you recall what salary you were making? M: My salary when I went from University of North Carolina the first year was $2,800. The next year it was raised to $2,900. P: By 1953, you = d become a wealthy man I assume. M: About $3,000, but I was o ffered $4,500 at Randolph-Macon. P: You moved from William and Mary to Randolph-Macon in 1953? M: For two reasons, I was pushed and I was pulled. Pushed because there was a scandal in the athletic department. The Board of Visitors said to the president, we want a football team that wins more than it loses, so leave Rube McCray who was a coach alone and let him build a team. He went out and recruited. It was found out later he fa lsified their records so they could get in to William and Mary and I had some of those students and they were not inclined to be scholarly at all, but they were good football players. Also, the coach had a mole in the registrar = s office who

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SRC -10 Morland, page 101 changed the grades so that his good football play ers would not lose out. When that was revealed... P: Did it make the newspapers? M: Oh yes. It made the newspapers, it made everything. P: Do you remember which year it was? M: That was in 1951 or 1952. It was right around in t hat time. The place was in an uproar really. The board of visitors told the president he had to leave, although he was not to blame. John Pomphard went to California and became head of a library there. P: He had to leave because of the scandal? Because he oversaw... M: It was his ultimate responsibility. P: He had knowledge of it. M: The dean of the college, the dean of men, the dean of women, Rube McCray the coach all had to leave. I would say 40 percent of the faculty. P: In that next year? M: It was an attrition that took several years. What happened was the villains for the faculty were the Board of Visitors or the Board of Trustees. We who had been bereft with John Pomphard who was a very fine administrator, excellent president, a good scholar and a good administrator had to leave. The dean we all liked had to leave. We, faculty, met without the president and said let = s appoint a committee and get the very best administration that this school can have because we = ve got all the potential for a first rate liberal arts college. So we as a faculty chose a committee of about six or seven people. They got in touch with the Board of Visitors and said we want to meet with you and help decide on a president. They got in a car, were going to Richmond when they heard over the radio that the boar d had already selected a president without any consultation with

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SRC -10 Morland, page 102 the faculty whatsoever. It was Alvin Duke Chandler who had just retired as an admiral and he was told the faculty = s out of hand, go down and get them in shape. He was described by Stan Williamson who was head of the psychology department as a person with a low paranoid threshold, which was appropriate because where one or two were gathered he was sure they were talking about him. He was a terrible president and the first convocation we had, he said the first part of this convocation will be an invocation and so one of the local ministers gave an invocation. From then on, Chandler called the rest, he said the next part of this invocation will be so and so, and the next main speaker for this invocation will be somebody else. Interestingly, the head of the English department, Jess Jackson , spoke on Shakespeare = s character of Bolinbroke . Bolinbroke was selected not because of faculty, but because of kinship. Chandler was related, was a son of one of the earlier president of W illiam and Mary. I think this all went over Chandler = s head, but the faculty just roar ed, they thought it was great. P: Personally, you just thought t hat was an environment you shouldn = t remain in, is that right? So you started looking around or you got an overture from Randolph-Macon. M: I was invited by other schools. I had been in other years... Because when I received my doctorate, the G.I. Bill was in full force, so college faculty were in great demand all over. I came up to Lynchburg and leaving the flat lands of W illiamsburg and seeing these beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains which surround the city. The setting of t he city is beautiful. I knew the president of Randolph-Macon because he had been at Yale Divinity School, he had married the daughter of the dean, Margaret Wigle Quillian. I had worked with her father , I had been executive secretary of the Yale in China Association in New Haven and he was the head of my board. Of course, I had known him when I was a student, but I got to know hi m very, very well as my board. With a salary differential, with our children still very small, wi th the setting as beautiful as it was I decided we

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SRC -10 Morland, page 103 would be better off. I could be head of a department which was at that time the department of sociology and economics. The first thing we did was to have an amiable divorce from the economics part because that was not my specialt y and I could bring in anthropology and we could be a department of sociology and anthropology. So completely renovated and changed the department here. That was to me a great opportunity. P: Before we leave Williamsburg, what were your inte rests in race relations at that time those four years there? Were you beginning to get involved in various studies nationally and so on. Is this about the time when you received an invitation fr om the NAACP Legal Defense Fund or others? When did your activities with Southern R egional Council and the other organizations you... M: I was associated with Southern Regional Council when I was in college and I got speakers from Southern Regional Council to come to Birmingham Southern and speak. My association with them went far back. As a matter of fact, it had a different name and I = m not sure what the Southern Regional Council was called. When I came here, and I guess it was because of my relations with the Southern Regional Council, that I was invited by Jack Greenberg. P: What year was that? M: 1951. P: So you were at William and Mary at the time? M: I was at William and Mary, and again I went to t he department chair, I went to the dean, I went to the president and I said look, I want to be a witne ss for the NAACP, but I want the college to know about it and wanted to know if [End of Tape 4, side B] P: This is Ed Peeples on February 28. I = m here with Ken Morland. We = re going to pick up where we left off yesterday. Ken = s getting comfortable. Ken, you were at William and Mary and you were on your way to take a position at Randolph-Macon Women = s College in 1953. You had your

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SRC -10 Morland, page 104 PhD and you had quite a bit of experience in race relations by this time. Now, people nationally were beginning to get in touch with you. [Was] NAACP one of those first ones and were you at William and Mary at the time? How did that start? M: I was contacted by Jack Greenberg of the Legal and Educational Defense Fund of the NAACP inviting me to help in the case in Wilmington Dela ware in terms of battling against the separate but equal, and trying to get the necessity for being separ ate out of the law. I did not know Jack and I = m not quite sure why I was invited, but I did go up. He told me where we would meet at the Dupont Hotel where we stayed. I couldn = t afford to stay there B I went up there not too long ago and it was way out of my range B but we had a long strategy session before facing the court the next day. Chancellor Seitz was the one who would hear the case and when I was in Wilmington three or four years ago, I got to know a lawy er very well because he was in charge of a cousin = s estate. He said Loel Seitz was one of the most highly regar ded judges anywhere in the United States. P: Let = s talk a little bit about this case. Was this 1953? M: 1951. P: 1951 is when you were invited. You had only been at William and Mary, this was your first teaching position, and you had already been recognized nationally as a resource. You don = t know how that happened? Did someone write an encouragi ng letter to Jack Greenberg to identify you? M: Jack Greenberg must have been informed, it woul d have to [have] come through the Southern Regional Council. They needed a southerner, a deep south southerner, to be on their panel of socalled experts. P: Do you know what month you were invited up there? It was to New York, right? Isn = t that where the Legal Defense Fund offices...

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SRC -10 Morland, page 105 M: I was invited to Wilmington, Delaware. P: So you were invited to work on the specific Wilmington case and all around you were four other cases and different experts, teams being formed and so forth, right? M: I think Kenneth Clark was... Once they invited him, he was in all of those cases and he = s in the footnote of the Supreme Court decision. P: So you joined Kenneth Clark as part of that team, expert testimony about the effects of race consciousness among children or the hurtful... M: My research had just begun. Kenneth Clark was the pioneer, he and Mamie Clark, his wife, had used dolls. Black children were identifying themselves with the White dolls and this was very unsettling and very difficult for people to realize that it was going on. I was there to talk about his work, my beginning work, and also the results of integr ation in the armed services to the extent that it had taken place, and in apartments were there had been some integration. I reported on these. P: You had done research on that at that point? M: Just reading it. I had not done any direct resear ch or any direct measurement. What I was doing was moving from Clark = s dolls to a set of photographs which I thought would give a much more natural and a much broader range of res ponse from the preschool children. P: So this was a stimulus material you faced the child with to elicit a response through the photographs. M: Correct. It was a measuring instrument. P: That was the stimulus material and then you recorded responses. M: Yes. P: The major discovery of this whole development of research, yours and others, was the finding that Black children were identifying Whiteness as...

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SRC -10 Morland, page 106 M: They were preferring White over Black reflecting B we interpreted this and certainly Clark did as the result of the relative statuses of Whites and of Blacks. I can remember asking a child (we used A colored @ at this time) are you White or are you colored? He was very hesitant and very difficult. He hung his head and says I guess I = s a little bit colored. Tom Pettigrew quoted that in one of his books or one of his articles I remember. P: Was this beginning research done in Virginia when you were at William and Mary? M: It was done in Virginia. Later, I had students who were trained, I trained them in interviewing, and they went to Hartford, Connecticut and to Philadelphia, North Carolina, and other areas. P: Was this while you were at William and Mary or later when you were at Randolph-Macon? M: The extensive research was later, was while I was at Randolph-Macon, because I was just getting into it. As you well know, in the first year or so of college teaching, you have to work very, very hard to be ready for those classes. I know I would st ay up [until] two or three in the morning just to be sure when I went into that class I knew what I was doing because I had to teach courses which I myself had not taken. P: And you didn = t have a word processor or a computer did you? M: No word processor. P: It was pretty primitive at the time, was it not? The working conditions? M: Compared to what they are now for at the time, we don = t know that they are primitive. P: You were being invited. You had already built some kind of reputation up. It = s kind of amazing how your name got around, but it probabl y was through Southern Regional Council? M: I think it must have been and I don = t know how many others were invited and maybe it turned out . Also, I was at a school that was known to be liberal and open, particularly with the president and the dean that we had.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 107 P: You = re speaking of... M: I = m speaking of Randolph-Macon now. P: The Chapel Hill degree, did that have any bearing on... M: I think it must have had. P: That you had been within the sweep of southern studies and that made you something of an expert too, no doubt. M: Louis Redding was the one who cro ss-examined me at Wilmington. P: The lawyer? M: He was a lawyer and one of the crusaders in the court. He = s in Jack Greenberg = s excellent book which tells the story of how the NAACP Legal and Defense Fund was able to plan and to get the 1954 decision. But when I was on the stand, Louis Redding asked me Professor Morland, what college did you go to? I said Birmingham Southern College. And he said and where is Birmingham Southern College? I knew at that point they wanted somebody from the deep south who had grown up in the South in a segregated sit uation, but who felt that we had to have change in the relative statuses of Blacks and Whites. P: That sounds like he was examining y ou, not cross-examining you. Who = s side was he on? Was he representing... M: He was representing the NAACP. P: Yes, that = s what I thought. So he was pulling out of y ou the facts that he wanted laid bare for the court. M: Exactly. P: Did you say there was a third expert in t hat team that was in the Delaware case?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 108 M: Yes. There was a psychologist from NYU, can = t recall his name but you = ve mentioned it once. I think I can find it. P: We = ll find it another time. It = s on the record and it probably is in... M: He was one of my heroes in terms of what he had done in the area of race, particularly in terms of the matter of intelligence. P: Do you remember the approxim ate date that you went for the meeting? This was your first encounter with Legal Defense Fund = s staff and you went to Wilmington. Do you remember what month it was or anything about the time? M: It was in the fall of the year of 1951. P: This was very early in the development of these cases, wasn = t it? M: I think the one in South Carolina had been heard and the one in Prince Edward County was handled by Oliver Hill and two or three other members of these crusaders in the courts. P: Yes. M: I think Wilmington probably was one of the last of the five. P: But still this is an early date, fall of 1951, it went on until 1954 before we heard a decision. You went to this first meeting, who was there and what went on? This is Wilmington, you were called up there, you got somebody to teach your classes or what have you. M: Yes, I had to make that arrangement. P: So you went up there for how long and what happened in Wilmington? M: When I arrived, we were all assembled, that is those who were going to be on the side of the plaintiff. We had an educator from Norfolk who talked about all the time these children spent on the bus going by White schools so they could get to their school, it was a terrible waste of time. We had a psychologist that I mentioned who = s name I would know immediately if I had a chance

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SRC -10 Morland, page 109 to look for it. We had Kenneth Clark who was there, we had Jack Greenberg, we had Thurgood Marshall. They talked about what the strategy would be. We stayed t ogether until about 3:00a.m. P: About what time did it start? M: After dinner about 8:00 or 9:00, so we had a long session. It was fascinating to find out who would say what, who would take what approach. This was not spontaneous. P: This was new to you, this kind of strategy? M: This kind of [strategy] yes, [it] was very new to me. P: How old were you? Do you remember? M: I was thirty-three or there about. P: Still a young man. M: From my perspective, very young. At that time, I thought I was... P: Did you feel young and in any way in awe of these older men? M: I felt in awe of these people I had read about and whom I had admired. Marshall and Kenneth Clark, educators, the whole group of them. P: The psychologist, could that have been Otto Klineberg. M: Otto Klineberg is who he was . P: Was he a psychiatrist or a psychologist? M: I = m not sure, but his work had been in the area of in telligence. One of the decisions that I helped to make was shall we bring up the matter of relati ve intelligence. I said we should because so far as the South was concerned, it needed to be dealt with and there was no better person, better equipped than Otto Klineberg to do that. So that was his testimony. P: You knew that sitting there, sitting across from him, you knew that you had the right people in the room.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 110 M: Absolutely. P: And you were great a great respecter of them because you knew ahead of them through the literature, is that right? M: I was working in that area and I was asked all the questions that I was going to get from the one who was with the NAACP, Louis Redding. P: Louis Redding kind of led this trial or his was responsible for your testimony? M: He was responsible for having me on the stand and asking me questions. P: So other witnesses, they might move to another lawyer? M: Exactly. P: In that room, what are some of the things you talked about other than what you = ve told us? M: We talked about intelligence. We talked about the ki nd of research that I was familiar with where in say, I think in Pittsburgh there were groups of apartments, some had been integrated some had not. Those in integrated apartments had a much broader attitude. For example, the Whites would say some of the worst neighbors I had were White, but some of the most congenial, thoughtful, cleanest neighbors were Black. They said you cannot categorize. That was one of the major purposes of trying to get away from forced segregation. P: The three of you behavioral scientists were sort of proposing that this was worthy of entering as testimony, the intelligence issue, t he equality, the randomness of IQ? M: Yes. P: How about test? Any biases? M: Kenneth Clark was going to be asked what did you find with your doll testing? They decided they would go for social scientists to help in order to show some effects on the minds and in the views of themselves, of the children. They had not done that before.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 111 P: Did the lawyers seem to think that social science evidence was credible and would be credible in the court? M: There was a big debate in the NAACP as to whether or not they should go in this direction, but they decided that it should. It turned out to be an e xcellent decision because, as I said, Kenneth Clark was quoted A as long as these children are looked dow n upon in a segregated situation, their minds and their hearts will burdened for the rest of their lives @ . P: That was compelling to a judge, compelling to B this was not a jury trial was it? M: No. It was done with a chancellor they called him, Chancellor Seitz . P: A single judge? M: A single judge. P: Was this a federal district court or was this an appellate situation? What was the level of the court? It was a federal court right? M: It was a federal court, yes. P: Was it a district court? M: As I understand it, it was a district court. Seitz was... There were two cases actually in Wilmington from towns just outside of Wilmington that were brought together in the court room that day. P: The issue, not only the hurtful nature of s egregation from the evidence of dolls and photographs, but also the question of presuming that intelligence is different. That required a little bit different kind of testimony. M: It was different. The implication in intelli gence was if you put Whites and Blacks together, you = re going to pull down the standards because Blacks simply can = t learn as rapidly or as well as Whites. P: Who spoke to that?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 112 M: Otto Klineberg, very effectively. P: Did he know a lot about testing? M: Yes, he had done a lot of testing and he was very convincing. That = s the reason... I think that was the small part I played in the strategy area was they thought it was so obvious that people varied now by what racial category they were assigned, but they were individuals, some very bright and some not very bright. P: Who else was in the room? We = ve named three experts, we = ve named Lawyer Redding... M: The educator, I = d have to look up his name. Jack Greenberg... P: Educator, what affiliation did this educator have? M: He was from Virginia and was from Norfolk. P: An expert? M: He knew a lot about education and I think he was directly involved in the schools. P: Public schools you mean? M: Public schools, yes. P: He was there to be an expert as well? M: Yes. P: Okay, that = s four people and Mr. Redding. Anybody else in the room? M: Jack Greenberg was there. Of course the me mbers of the NAACP, Louis Redding was there and Thurgood Marshall was there. Marshall just came and left. He saw that everything was set up nicely and... P: Did he seem to be running a tight ship? M: Very tight. P: He wanted to know what was going on?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 113 M: He had to know what was going on, yes. P: But he was the helmsman in many ways? Did you sense that? M: Yes, but he was the kind of helmsman that tried to find out what others working with him were thinking and he never tried to force his ideas. He tr ied to work out the best strategy with people. It was give and take all through those hours. P: Did he pull ideas out of you on this issue? M: I think he knew the literature. He had great confidence in the staff of the NAACP legal defense fund that had gathered with us in t hat room at Dupont Hotel. He was a quiet, but very effective director. P: So he = d sit down, listen awhile. Would he introduce some ideas here and there? M: He would. I wish we could = ve recorded that kind of session, but we didn = t have the... At this point, you do not realize how significant at a later date these steps would be. You just go from day and to day and you have certain things to do and you do them. P: Why did Jack Greenberg and Mr. Marshall and the ot hers finally go for social science testimony given their initial doubts? M: I think the initial effect that Kenneth Clar k had in the Clarendon County case in South Carolina where you had such disparate schools, Black school was just very, very poor, and the White school wasn = t a great school but in comparison it certainl y was. I think taking that step was a risky one because here you = re not dealing with legalities, you = re bringing in and sometimes in order to disparage this decision they speak of it as t he supreme sociological decision by the courts. P: Later on they called it social engineering? M: They called it social engineering. Interesti ngly, I had come by then in 1953 and 1954, I was at the residence of the president as I often was when diffe rent faculty came just for social occasions.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 114 P: At Randolph-Macon? M: At Randolph-Macon, yes. T here was a prominent lawyer, I hadn = t realized how prominent he was. I told him, I said isn = t it wonderful that 1954 decision. I said now it = s going to enable the South to be a much stronger force in the nation. He said he didn = t like that decision at all. He said it wasn = t based on law, it was based on sociology ideas. He didn = t know I was a sociologist. P: Do you remember who that was? He wasn = t involved in the case was he? M: No. He was not directly involved, but he reflec ted what a lot of lawyers felt and what the NAACP legal defense fund had to have in mind if they went in that direction. Would it be helpful or would it ruin their case? It was a very difficult decision. P: Did you have any notion that this was one of the first times social science had been used in a significant case, other than psychiatric evidence and so forth? M: To my knowledge, it was the first time. P: Was this a landmark in any way for legitimacy of social science and applications in American life? M: I think it was a landmark. Interestingly, Jack Greenberg after that 1951 court case and after 1954 had been decided asked me if I would go to Oklahoma to be on a panel. Thurgood Marshall was the one who chaired the panel, but we had Robert W eaver who was the first cabinet member in Housing and Urban Development, HUD, we had Kenneth Cl ark, I was there, and there was a fourth person, I think his name was E.B. Henderson from Washington, D.C. We were part of the program for the NAACP annual meeting and also we had a separate occasion on the radio, we didn = t have television much at that time. P: What city was this in? M: It was in Oklahoma City or Tulsa. P: Do you remember the date or the year?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 115 M: I have them. P: Do you remember the year? M: I don = t remember the year, no. P: Was it after the 1594 Supreme Court decision? M: Oh yes, it was after that. P: But it was in the 1950s? M: It was in the 1950s, in the late 1950s. [An] interesting question that I was asked, and I hadn = t realized until it came out in the paper the next day that I was the only White person on the panel because Robert Weaver was so light skinned t hat I had no idea that he was categorized. Henderson was very, very light. You didn = t think of race in those categories, but the paper came out A the White member of the panel @ and they indicated who I was. But Marshall had this question that he asked me both in the presentation for the membership meeting and also over the radio that we had a program on why do Whites k eep saying if you segregate, if you break down segregation and you have the mixing of races, do you want your sister or your daughter to marry a Negro? He said why in the world do Whites think that way? I said, it = s a great compliment to Blacks and Negroes that what the Whites are saying are that they are going to be so attractive to White women that the White women will say yes. Of course, as Thurgood Marshall said, they could always say no, the White woman could. Bu t that was not the argument. I said it was an emotional kind of reaction, totally illogical that was used to try to win an argument or to stop the movement toward desegregation. P: This was their national meeting of the NAACP? Members from all over the country in the state chapters and local chapters assembled and so that was quite an audience. M: It was a very large audience, yes.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 116 P: Did you make a presentation on this panel or were you just asked questions? M: Each of us made a presentation, but we were asked to again none of this happens without rehearsal, without knowing where we = re going. So we met with Marshall and Marshall would indicate what each of us would be asked and the area that he wanted us to cover. P: Was this another exhibit of how well organized he was? M: Definitely. P: How would he compare in terms of his ability to organize and attend to details compared with others that you = ve known? M: He was superb. He knew where he wanted to go. He knew how he wanted to try to get there, and nothing got in the way that would slow him down on these things. But he also, it seems to me, was very wise. Over and over he said the constitution is on our side. If we get the right court cases, we can change the system and he said whenever he went into places which required segregation, he followed the rules very strictly because he knew t hat individuals trying to break the law would just make it difficult for him to serve or to get to know people to do what he needed to do in the area. He, by the way, was almost lynched twice in his life time. P: Tell me about those episodes. M: He talked himself out of it very nicely. P: Tell me about what you know of those episodes. M: This was down in Tennessee. This was something that he told or I might possibly have read and I = ve read about three or four biogr aphies of Thurgood Marshall so I don = t know where what is coming from. The Thurgood Marshall I knew is most clearly stated by Jack Greenberg in his Crusaders in the Courts . I liked it better than the full ones that I = ve read. Marshall would not try in anyway to cause any kind of disturbance. He did not like the marches. He did not like the notion

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SRC -10 Morland, page 117 of Martin Luther King that if you don = t like a law, you have the right to break it, but you ought to do it openly and this is what Martin Luther King would say. Suffer the consequences because King himself said without a system of laws to whic h all are subjected you have chaos and the law is sacred in that way. Marshall would agree with t hat, but he said if the law is one the ought to be changed, the way to change it is in the courts with good, solid cases. P: How did you find Jack Greenberg? M: Very congenial, very sharp, very appreciative . I have such wonderful letters from him and also from Robert Carter. Robert Carter was there in the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. P: You worked with him? M: I worked with him. P: In what context? M: He was very able. I was impressed with how articulate, how clearly these NAACP lawyers were thinking, how they tried to anticipate what might come from what direction so they could be ready to handle them. P: Did Mr. Carter work on the Delaware case too? M: Yes. P: Was he in your meeting, the initial planning meeting? M: He was in our meeting with Otto Klineberg and Kenneth Clark and the educator and there were two or three others. P: Do you remember who they were from the Legal Defense Fund? M: Fredrick Parker from the University of Delaware was there. I had taken social psychology from him at the University of North Carolina in the su mmer. He taught in the summer down there. He was one of the witnesses and one who took part in this case in Wilmington.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 118 P: So there were really five expert witnesses so far you = ve described. M: Yes. There were five and there had been some previously. The day before, somebody wouldn = t stop speaking. He was not a strategist, he hadn = t been prepared and hadn = t been as all of us were the next day to take our turns and not to try to move along and to just give straight uncomplicated answers to the questions that were raised. P: Where in the process of this case did this meeting come in? In other words, had it been filed earlier and this was a new place in the case or was this the initial hearings for it? M: This was the initial hearings for it. Where the plaintiffs were supported by the NAACP Legal Defense Fund and they had taken up that case becaus e they thought it would fit in well with the others. They had, as I said earlier, the NAACP was inundated with cases, people from schools, people from transportation, people from other areas wanted to come and help us, we = re in trouble here. But Marshall, here he showed his great str ength and his perseverance. He turned almost all the cases down and said it = s not strong enough for us to pursue. It was done with great care, with great forethought. P: What did you note about the relationships betw een the various Legal Defense Fund lawyers? How did they appear as a team or di d certain personalities dominate? M: They were highly cooperative. They knew that they were trying to step into new territory and they knew that they were relying on social scientis ts which might just destroy the case depending upon how the judge or, in some cases juries, I = m not sure how they... P: Did talk about the possibility of backfiring? M: Oh yes, yes we did. And the care with which we had to state what we understood and what we knew, not overstate, but al so not understate either.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 119 P: Did you have to emphasize that the statement y ou were making was scientifically or systematically derived? Was there a kind of science edge to it? M: Very much so, although I remember in my cro ss examination by the lawyer who was defending the state. He asked all of this research you = re talking about, has it been done right here in Wilmington? I said no, it hadn = t been in Wilmington, but I had it and sometimes when you = re sitting up there as a witness, they don = t let you add, they cut you off. I said but I don = t think Wilmington is significantly different in its race re lations from other American cities where there is required segregation in public schools. P: Of course Delaware, while it hadn = t been a confederate state, it was a slave state and had a tradition of segregation almost i dentical to the other southern states . M: Yes that surprised me. I thought it would be quite different from deep south, and it was different from deep south, but nevertheless, it had this tradition that you mentioned. P: As was Maryland and Kentucky. You were fa cing some of the same universals right, and that = s the point you were trying to make? M: Yes. P: That after all, medicine assumes that populations all over the world are similar, so long as they = re in the same species, so why shouldn = t humans be assumed the same in research in behavioral sciences, right? Is that which you were arguing? M: [Yes]. P: Was there any awareness about the historical significance in your mind at the time? M: There was no awareness, no idea that t he 1954 decision would be made like it was made unanimously and in tune particularly with what Clark had said and in research that I had cited. This moved the case in Kansas where they were all, the five cases were drawn together. I was not

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SRC -10 Morland, page 120 invited to go there. Kenneth Clark was there, I think Robert Redfield might have been there, I = m not sure. He was in one or two of the cases. But there were some notable socio-scientists at the Kansas trial. P: Did any of the lawyers have any sense or convey to you all a sense that this was a historical effort? Did they have any consciousness of [it]? M: They knew if their ideas prevailed that it w ould certainly be historic. I got letters from NAACP participants B Jack Greenberg, Robert Carter particularly, Thurgood Marshall B who thanked me and said we are absolutely elated that we have won against what they thought were impossible odds. P: This was after 1954? M: This was at the 1954 decision. That just brought the joy and conviction and real belief in the American system of courts and of justice. It just bubbled forth from the legal team. P: Were you by chance in Washington on May 1954? Did you go up there? How did you learn of it? M: I learned through radio announc ements, through newspapers. P: How many days after the 17th of May was that? M: It would be the next day because it was a far-reaching decision and I can remember the Times dispatch, Virginus Dabney, saying we are faced with something now that we got to adjust to. He didn = t go as far as James Dabbs, I got to know Jame s Dabbs very well from South Carolina. I can recall a Dabbs vs. Dabney two columns parallel. Both realized vast changes were coming. Dabney was not as pleased as I think Dabbs was. P: Dabbs, what paper was his? Was he t he Charleston paper? What newspaper was he? M: I don = t think he was with the newspaper. P: What was his full name?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 121 M: I = m not sure, but we had him here as a speaker. He spoke at Randolph-Macon. P: And he approved of the decision? M: Very, very much. His statements as a Sout h Carolinian and his books were exceedingly important in showing that America was moving in the right direction. P: Was that James McBride Dabbs? M: That = s right, you got it. James McBride Dabbs. P: You heard this news and you had been involved in it and you had sat in the strategy and you = d gone through these arduous tasks wee into the morn ing hours. How did you feel when you heard that news? M: I was elated. I just thought that it was unbelie vable good that you had not a split decision, but a 9-0 in favor of that. They said they would make a subsequent decision the next year as to the way this might be implicated. P: Implemented. M: And when they came up with the notion of A with all deliberate speed @ it was a little hard to figure out exactly what that meant. P: Apparently so because it was many, many years before many of those cases were resolved. So A deliberate speed @ meant a dozen years in Prince Edward right? M: They realized, I think the court in its wisdom, realized that you couldn = t change what had been so ingrained quickly. You had to do it with care. Then later, there came the notion of racial balance. It had to be in terms of the number within the community. Lynchburg after eleven years of a court case balanced every school with the proportionate number in the population. There were perhaps 35-36 percent Black pupils and 70 percent or so of Whites, it depended on what the figures were. But I got to know the superintendent of Lynchbur g schools very well, he was in our church, and he

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SRC -10 Morland, page 122 said it = s so difficult because demographics change and what he needed was a can of spray paint and he could either paint somebody White or paint them Black and so that he would have the... P: According to the quotas he needed you mean? M: Yes, according to [End of Tape 5, side A] the quotas and they were based on the number of percentage of people of the total populat ion. ...forty days and forty nights. P: We = re recording now, but I = ve lost my meter. That = s a terrible thing to happen. We were talking about the Delaware case. You had had that first meeting with the group of lawyers and the other experts. When that meeting broke up, what happened? Where = d you go from there? M: We went to bed, it was 3:00a.m. P: [Laugh] What happened the next day? I = m trying to get the sequence of the court case. Did you come home? M: Oh no, we went into court the next morning about 10:00. P: Tell us a little bit about how things unfolded there? In other words, who started off? Who was the lead lawyer, do you remember? M: The lead lawyer there was Louis Redding. He = s from Wilmington and he = s one of the nine very brave lawyers that pursued this case. He then ca lled witnesses. I remember that he called Otto Klineberg was there, very import ant witness. The head of the department of sociology at the University of Delaware was there. P: He was working as a witness? M: Yes. I don = t think he = s mentioned in this book. P: But that was still another witness you had. That = s up to about six witnesses that were in there, right? M: Yes, that = s about right.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 123 P: So he began to call on the witnesses. The firs t one was Otto Klineberg. He talked about IQ and testing and that sort of the thing? M: He had the lead questions. He knew what Louis R edding was going to ask him. Interestingly, the Wilmington, that is the official lawyer, the defendant said no questions, no question about that. P: He didn = t question Klineberg? M: No, he just waved it right off. P: Isn = t that interesting. Then who appeared next, do you recall? M: I = m not sure. I might have been the one that came next. P: After that, we = ve talked about your testimony, we = ve pretty much covered that, is there any other thing that you can think about, a point you were trying to make? M: Fredrick Parker who was head of the department of sociology at the University of Delaware spoke and he had comparable information or data from what I had. Kenneth Clark also spoke and he again was asked with everything set up and you knew what you were going to be asked, and you knew what was needed. We were all ready, we were cued, we were set to go. None of us stayed up on there a very long time. The day before, there had been a B I would have to look that up and see who it is B but somebody just went on and on on the plaintiff = s side and he was rather flamboyant and was very difficult to deal with I gather. P: So the trial had been going on for some time before you arrived. M: When I arrived. P: So you stepped in with some of the other wit nesses and became part of the case as it was rolling along. You spoke in that period and then the ot her witnesses spoke. [Were] there any notable events as these witnesses spoke? Were they cr oss-examined by the, I assume the attorney general of Delaware or what have you?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 124 M: Yes, that = s correct. The attorney general seemed almost half-hearted in what he was doing. As you know, of these five cases, Wilm ington was the only one the NAACP won. P: I don = t understand, tell me more about this. M: Wilmington, Chancellor Seitz ruled in favor of the NAACP contention. P: At the district level? You won at the lower court level, is that what you = re saying? M: Yes, of the five cases. P: And the other four had to go all the way to the S upreme Court to get a favorable decision, is that correct? M: I think Wilmington was probably included am ong the information that was used in the Kansas v. Board of Education . I = m not sure about that. I = ve never seen that case spelled out or written up so I = m not sure. P: But you won that decision. M: At the district level, yes, in Delaware. P: You spoke. Were there witnesses for the other side in favor of the state? Did they appear that day? M: They appeared, not with great enthusiasm but wi th the old arguments that its going to be very difficult, it will be upsetting, things are going along fine as they are and all we need to do is to upgrade B they admitted they needed to upgrade the sc hools that the African Americans were attending so that they would have equal. They w ould still be separate, but the facilities would at least be equal. P: What kind of witnesses did they have? Did t hey have people with professional social science or behavioral science credentials like psychologists and social scientists and so forth? M: I = m trying to remember if Henry Garre tt was there, he might have been there.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 125 P: He might have been one of them? M: Yes. I got to know him because he spoke at t he Southern Sociological Society later. We were having a meeting in Asheville, North Carolina and Henry Garrett, I don = t know why he was invited, but he was on the stage with about six or sev en people, four Blacks, and I remember his conclusion: Just face it folks, Blacks are inferior intellectually. P: And he was on the stage with Black intellectuals? M: Exactly. He did not get a single response other than total disbelief and silence. Interestingly, the next morning before the sessions had actually begun, he was going to check out of Asheville. He was eating breakfast by himself and I said to our gr oup, I think we ought to invite him to come over to our table and be with us. So I went over and invited him and he said sure, he = d be glad to come, but he said here you = ve got the prodigal son and I = m surprised that anybody in the Southern Sociological Society wants to have anythi ng to do with me. I remember one of the group whose position I took when I came to Randolph-Macon was pouring coffee and she said I was really tempted to pour it right down his back. P: He, of course, was the Columbia University psychologist. I think he = d been the chair of the department? M: He was. P: And president of the American P sychological Association at one time? M: I think so. P: But he was a native Virginian. M: I didn = t realize that. P: I think he was from Halifax County I believe. T hat might help explain some of the origins of his thinking, although many people from Halifax have done quite well to free themselves from that kind

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SRC -10 Morland, page 126 of thinking. So he may have been there. Did y ou have other occasions to meet him or hear him present? M: His favorite student and supporter was Audrey Shuey who was in our psychology department at Randolph-Macon. P: She wrote that notable book. M: She did. P: Tell us about Audrey Shuey. M: Audrey firmly believed in all of these data. She very carefully got it all out. She made certain assumptions. First, that you do have distinct human varieties in races. P: Closed races? M: Yes, they are separate entities. Second, that you can measure inborn intelligence through the instruments that she was using. Y ou can tell how gifted a person is and it = s because of his/her genetic makeup. We had some interesting sessions wi th Audrey. I would take my research class to her research class and we would challenge her on this. We would talk about the racial categories and how they were determined and how ar bitrary in anthropological/sociological terms they were or that they were social economic ca tegories, not really distinct genetic groupings. We also challenged the ability of any instrument to find out how intelligent a person was because we looked upon intelligence as being dynamic, as being variable, as being what you had learned, what you were interested in, and not as though it was an isolated thing in and of itself. One thing I will say about Audrey, she never in any way exploited her position. Henry Garrett was the darling of the White Citizens Council and he went down and spoke and he was wined and dined. Shuey would never have anything whatsoever to do with the White Citizens Council. She said I = m not a

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SRC -10 Morland, page 127 politician, I don = t want to get into this matter of law or not, I = m sticking to my data. She was a very lovely person. P: She was personable and so on? M: Very personable and both of her daughters had tak en classes with me and they in themselves were very gracious as well. P: These events took place about what time, w hat year with her and you being there and trading students and so forth? M: She was at Randolph-Macon when I arrived and she retired after I was there. I don = t know what... I would have to check up to find out what year. P: She was a psychologist? M: Psychologist in disagreement with the other th ree in the department on that issue, totally in disagreement. P: But she seemed rather conventional otherwi se? A conventional university professor. M: Oh yes, I would say so. As a matter of fact, s he was not an activist. Some of us, I would try to separate the roles as best I could, but you said it so well earlier today that a person who is a journalist has a very different role from the pers on who is a sociologist. The sociologist does all within his/her ability to determine what exists, w hat is there. The journalist wants to attract attention and become sensationalized and we would not. P: Some try to adopt social science methods and objectives, but there is a basic difference as you pointed out. As you know, Audrey Shuey = s book on Negro intelligence was very popular and had far reaching influence and supported many, many pamphleteers, journalists, and others. It appears in a prominent place in Kilpatrick = s book in defense of southern segregation, James Jackson Kilpatrick and others. So it was gris t for the White supremacy mill, but she didn = t think

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SRC -10 Morland, page 128 there was a misuse of it? What was her view of that? Even though she didn = t want to be actively engaged, how did she feel about its use? M: She felt that once she had gathered the data and had it published, that it was out of her hands and people did with it what they would. She had sa id what she believed and what she had found. She was by the way working on a difference in persona lity of Blacks and of Whites when she retired. She had a stroke and I remember seeing her in such a terrible state. I had a good [sense] she was very warm and very friendly toward me, although she did not agree with my activities in terms of the Virginia Council on Human Relations and in other areas. P: How would you explain a phenomenon like that, a person who has been trained in a behavioral science, psychology, and presumably trained critica lly about methodology of testing? In other words, it has long been known that many of the test s she cited were WWI tests in which the Whites had great advantage in the testing for one reason or another, literacy or se mi-literacy problems, and yet she held to a faith in those tests and used that data as part of her support for the thesis that Blacks are inferior, even though raging in anthropology circles and psychology circles and sociology circles at the time was criticism of some of the achievements of testing, and some of the claims for testing. How would you explain how a person could view data so differently from the mainstream and not only different at the time from the mainstream, but is shown in more recent evidence to be sort of debunked in many, many ways. M: You would have to go to Henry Garrett because she sat at his feet and admired him and was convinced by him. But we have more recent studies, the bell curve for example. Hernstein is a psychologist, was a psychologist, I think he died shortly after that book was published, but he came up with exactly the kind of thing that Audrey Shuey came up with.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 129 P: How do you think that occurs? What goes wrong in a case like that? Is that the legitimate debate within the behavioral science, or is that an out lier of some sort? Later on, these people are discounted in some ways, but why does it take so long? The concern of my question is how could it be treated as so normal at the time, a nor mal academic position and then later on be totally discounted? M: I = m not sure it was the normal academic position. I think Shuey was different from almost all the psychologists that I had known anything about and certainly the sociologists and the anthropologists. The difference is in the set of assumptions you use exactly the same assumptions that Hernstein and B who wrote the book with him? P: The political scientist, I can = t remember his name. M: They, as I indicated, think that races are separate entities. P: Discrete categories. M: Discrete categories is a better way to put it. P: Almost a subspecies. M: A subspecies yes, it would be a subspecies. P: They argued that that was the case, didn = t they? M: Yeah. Also, and I do encounter this belief in the measurement of the IQ that can be done through a series of questions. That is still pretty widely held I think. Those of us who have been in the social sciences like sociology and anthropology k now that you cannot measure something as dynamic and as variable as complex as intelligence. I used to, I think I spoke of this earlier, I lived in the mill village for a year in my field study. I got to know the boys and girls there quite well. They all disliked school, they didn = t do well in school, they had no encouragement from their homes, they had parents who were virtually illiterate. So as soon as they could get out of school

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SRC -10 Morland, page 130 they did. They would show up very low on the kind of IQ test that Shuey, Garrett, Hernstein would use, but go with them on a possum hunt, go with t hem on a fishing trip and they were alert, they knew what to expect, they had a high level of intelligence. I was totally lost, I didn = t know what in the world was going on, and so if they = d had an IQ test that had to do with hunting or fishing the way they did it in the mill village, I w ould have been at the bottom of the whole list. P: Didn = t lots of social scientists make the point that cognitive written tests were measuring tappings one kind of intelligence and experiential evaluations of real-life situations represented another kind of intelligence, coping with the environment you fi nd yourself in in an intelligent fashion and so forth. M: Even the term intelligence is in itself very difficult to pin down. What is it? Is it solving problems, is it seeing relationships? It has been seized and used I can remember even in grade school, my grade school, that you were at a certain IQ level and it never changed. We had a wonderful dean at Randolph-Macon who had retired and she said it = s like the mark of the beast in the book of Revelation, you get stamped with a certain IQ on your back and you carry that through life. She said that is ridiculous, that = s not the way it happens. People grow, people develop, people slide, go downhill some. It = s a dynamic kind of process, not one that you can tie up in a score. Whether it = s cognitive or whether it = s experience or whatever it is. P: One of your colleagues and friends, Robert Green , spoke to this with his research in Prince Edward County in the early 1960s when he studied achievement and so-called IQ in the schools before a free school was offered within a interv al where the public schools had been closed. What did Bob Green find and how does it bear on these thoughts? Do you recall that? M: My strong impression, and I have his study right up t here on my shelf is that if children stay out of school during the formative year s, the early years when they = re five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten,

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SRC -10 Morland, page 131 and that happened to a lot of these children, even though they try to do something like go into homes and be coached or go into church buildings, it = s not equivalent to a systematic building of knowledge and understanding, and those years those children missed in Prince Edward County were a disaster for the individuals. Some of t hem got sent out of the county into other school systems and they maintained their level of k nowledge and understanding as far as those things were measurable, but you can never make it up. Once a child is deprived of that early education, it = s virtually impossible to have that. It = s a period of growth that does not take place if you = re not in school or if you = re not in a situation where you can have systematic knowledge. I know home schooling is done now by people who object to the lack of religious emphasis in school and some of these have been successful, but they = ve got to use the books that were developed by educators and they themselves have to bear down on their children to be sure they = re studying, that they = re learning the basics of building vocabul ary and writing in a way that people can understand it. But if you don = t have that, and I = m still skeptical about home schooling when it comes to understanding other children of your own age and of how you get along in the world, if you encapsule them in a family situation and never le t them out particularly, that is not a helpful learning experience. P: Back to the Delaware case, you spent the one day in court and you left, is that right? You came on back home to Lynchburg and the case went on a bit more? There were more hearings and so forth? M: I think about another day. I think it was perhaps three days in length, yeah. P: When did you learn of winning that case? Did somebody call you?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 132 M: I was called by Jack Greenberg and then I got a le tter from him and also a letter from Robert Carter and a letter from Thurgood Marshall. All of those thanking me, they thought it was a great victory and it bode well for the final blow against required segregation in public schools. P: What did you observe about the lawyer Carter, Mr. Carter? He was a key figure in the group of crusaders . M: In our sessions, he was I thought articulate, I thought he was brilliant. He would help shape the way the next set of questions would be asked the next day, so I was very favorably impressed with all of that NAACP Legal Defense Fund personnel. P: So you came home and now you had the big victory under your belt. Was this your first experience as an expert witness or had you been a witness before? M: It was my first appearance I ever made in court as a matter of fact. P: So it was Ken Morland one, segregation zero. Di d that begin a relationship with the Legal Defense fund for you further? M: I received a letter, and I have a copy of it, fro m a well known sociologist who wanted to set up a consultant group in the NAACP and to take an acti ve role wherever we were. Again, his name doesn = t come. His name was Alfred... P: Was he [in] New York, one of the universities in New York somewhere? M: No. I = m not sure where. Alfred McClung... P: Lee, Alfred McClung Lee. M: Lee, exactly, good for you. P: Had he been an expert in some of these cases? M: Yes. P: Did you communicate with him?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 133 M: I communicated and I had met him. I knew him at the sociology meetings. I told him that I thought I would be more effective in working with the Southern Regional Council because the NAACP had a very undeservedly bad name in the South. They didn = t know much about the Southern Regional Council, but it did have the term A southern @ in there and so they thought it wasn = t so bad. When people were frustrated who were opposed to desegregat ing the schools, they looked for targets to bash and the NAACP was a prime target. P: They outlawed them in some places and forced them to submit their membership lists and other such documents to the states. M: Yes, they were very harshly treated. P: So you began... What year are we now? So mewhere 1954, 1953, 1952 that you began to do more projects with the Southern Regional Council now? M: Yes, this is when we set up the Virginia Council on Human Relations and then the Lynchburg chapter of Virginia Council on Human Relations. P: You helped organize that, the Virginia Council on Human Relations. M: I helped organize that because I was related to the Southern Regional Council in Atlanta and certainly agreed with the strategy of having eac h state develop its own group. Then agreed that a community of any size ought to have its own chapt er of the Virginia Council on Human Relations. P: How did you initiate that for the stat e organization? Did you assemble some people? M: I wasn = t among those who took the lead, I was one of the ones, but there were several other persons who has been involved in race relations and knew about the Southern Regional Council and so together in Richmond that that group was organized and formed. P: Do you remember the first meeting? W here these people of like interest ended up together?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 134 M: I don = t remember the first meeting, but I do reme mber the one we were talking about when our group met usually at Virginia Union University. P: Very few other places you could meet as an interracial group. M: Very few. I don = t know that we could have met anywhere else. We were warmly welcomed at Virginia Union and Tom Henderson who was dean there and John Ellison who was president served on the board. We have a list of those people and you would know many of them since they = re from Richmond, but there were some who were not from Richmond. We had them from Charlottesville and from Arlington and from Danv ille and from Williamsburg and other places as well. P: Can you remember some of those sort of founding fathers and mothers who might have began? If you can = t remember the first meeting, can you remem ber some of the people who were there. I know you = ve told me about some of them. M: If I had a list of a board, I could without any question tell you about some of them. One was a physician, I think his name was Daniel, I = m not sure. P: Was Edward Haddock ? M: Edward Haddock was there. P: Was he involved? M: Yes, he was definitely involved. P: He was a physician. How about David Skull ? M: Yes, very much, from northern Virginia. P: Was Jay Whorl there? Maybe he was later. Can you remember any others? M: Belle Boone Beard was at Sweet Briar and was ve ry active when I was active. She was helpful with me in getting a Lynchburg chapter established.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 135 P: Did you remember Dan Bowers ? M: Yes. P: Was he the first executive director? M: I don = t know that he was the first, but he was there. Paul Reeling I remember most clearly as the executive. P: He was executive director. M: Yes, he was executive director. P: He was there probably... Do you remember what year this began? This would be the 1950s. M: It would be in the 1950s. P: Early, middle, late? M: It would be toward the latter part of the 1950s. P: How about Dr. Nichols from Virginia State. M: I did not know him, but we mentioned Harry Roberts and Harry Roberts was there. P: How about Virgil Wood, does that name ring a bell? M: Virgil and I were very close. He was from Lynchburg. P: Yes, he was a minister? M: Yes. P: Tell us about Virgil Wood and the Lynchburg scene of that chapter. He was in your chapter? M: Yes. He was the third president. I was the first president, Bev Cosby was the second, and Virgil Wood was the third. Virgil Wood became restless wi th the pace with the kind of role we were playing. He wanted to be more active. I can remember he did not get along with many of the Black leaders here. For example, the principle of the high school, the directors of the funeral parlors. Interestingly, they have been the two Blacks who have been mayors of Lynchburg. T.D.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 136 Thornhill was the first, and Carl Hutchison who = s picture = s on the front page today saying he = s going to run again and he is current mayor. I = ve worked with him on several committees, but that = s been more recent. It = s been when the establishment of t he Martin Luther King Center for Human Relations. P: Did you happen to know of Dr. McCreary , Edward McCreary ? Did you know him? M: I know the name, but he slips right now. If we coul d take the time, I could get a list of those if we need them. P: Let = s take a break. [End of Tape 5, side B] This is Ed Peeples with Ken Morland again, tape number six, and for once it = s all working. Great breakthroughs here, technological breakthroughs. We have been talking about the Delaware case and the events there and you = d come home and had won the case and you learned about it. I was wondering what took place next with respect to Legal Defense Fund and were you involved in further developments in the cases? M: No. I chose not to be affiliated with the group that Alfred McClung Lee brought together because I didn = t think that would be the most effective step I c ould take. I thought affiliating myself with the NAACP would have been a mistake. P: Because for your work in the South, it would have been sort of suicide. M: It would have been, it would have been ineffectual. P: So you = d have been isolated. You = d already experienced some isolation had you not? And harassment and so forth? M: Our chapter of Virginia Council on Human Re lations brought in a wide array of people. The NAACP, which started out as being interracial, has become here almost solely Black. There are, to my knowledge, no White members. Several year s I contributed to the organization, but I never heard from them one way or the other.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 137 P: When you finally heard of the victory in 1954, y ou said you were elated, and I asked you what you felt about it and you said it was elated. Was ther e anything inside you that said you were proud or that was very satisfying that you had put your shoulder to this wheel yourself? M: I felt that the South was having a heavy burden rolled off. It wasn = t going to be easy, but it would open up our region, it would begin to tap the tal ent and the understand and the skills of our African American citizens. That was where the elation came, that finally we were getting out of that stigma and I talked to many Blacks about that. One thing I haven = t mentioned is that for twelve summers, my family and I went to New York University graduate camp up in Bear Mountain Park. It was totally integrated. So our three girls were br ought up getting to know these Blacks who were so bright and cheerful and loved having the children t here. In other words, they had an experience there that would be very different from the one t hey were having down here, so we were delighted. For twelve summers, that was my job. It was in the school of education which met up in Bear Mountain Park and I taught basic courses in sociology and anthropology and in educational psychology. P: What summer did this begin? M: This began in 1952. I was recommended by my brother who got his doctorate from New York University and in that department of educati on he became a teacher of the philosophy of education. He recommended me and they invited me up. There were pretty rugged circumstances at that time, no running water they had, no real heat. They did have electricity, but it wasn = t particularly good. We lived in a log cabin for those twelve summers and the children really looked forward to going up there and seeing their friends w ho were growing up. Those experiences were very helpful, very, very good. P: Especially for your children.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 138 M: Especially for the children, yes. But I felt also that people in the department of education needed to have some basic sociology and some basic anthropology. P: Were these continuing educ ation or graduate or undergraduate? M: They were all graduates and strangely enough, it wa s because of segregation in the South that so many went to NYU. The policy of Virginia, and I think of many southern states were if you cannot duplicate the facility for Blacks, law schools, gr aduate schools, medical schools, then they could go anywhere they wanted to at the expense of the stat e. So segregation helped us initially. I think that fell, by the way, but still New York Univer sity attracted people in the department of education. P: So they received credit for it, the students. M: Most of them were working toward PhD = s. They could get off during the summer. They were teaching, some of them were taking twelve years, fourteen years. Hard work to get those degrees, but they just did not have time. They were very, very busy during the regular year. P: As you moved away from William and Mary and came to Lynchburg and started your new teaching position and now you were chair of the depar tment and you had paired off the economics and started to build up the strengths in anthropology and sociology. What were your first impressions of Randolph-Macon in those first couple of years? Was this an all-White women = s school at the time? M: Oh yes, yes. This was 1953. We never had any barriers as such to having Blacks come, but we had to recruit them. But that came a little bit later. Interestingly, Sweet Briar had in its charter that they could have only White students. They had to go to court and have the charter changed and it took about two or three or four years. P: What years were they successful in that? M: I think around 1960, about that.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 139 P: But you had no such prohibition? M: Oh no, we had no prohibition at all. As a matte r of fact, with the administration we had and, as I said, we had connections with the administration, admired them very much. They were both scholarly and at the time they were excellent adm inistrators. My feeling at Randolph-Macon was always you can do what you need to do, you = re totally free both in your citizen activities and they encouraged any kind of scholarship, any kind of publication, but it wasn = t required for advancement or wasn = t required. It was encouraged, but it was primarily teaching bright young women and they were serious about their education. They came to class, they prepared, they spoke up, and this was a little different from what I = d had previously in co-ed schools. P: Randolph-Macon had a great tradition for generating prominent wo men, did it not? M: Very much so. We = ve had judges and CEO = s. We = ve had M.D. = s and PhD = s and others. It = s outstanding, it = s been outstanding in that way. P: When did they recruit their first African American student or had you had foreign born students from time to time? M: We had students from twenty-four di fferent countries, including Africa. P: In the early days. M: When I came, yes, and they = ve continued a very heavy drawing on Japan. We = ve had an affiliation with the Far East because of one of our most prominent graduates who = s been celebrated, she = s done over 100 novels and also a movie called A The Good Earth @ . This was Pearl Buck. We now have a Pearl Buck Award and we bring in outstanding women. The one who was brought in this year was Jehan Sadat who was a widow of Anwar Sadat . She was there when he was assassinated and said she just felt totally helpless. But she was bright, her English was clear, she had been a leader in helping women all over the world.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 140 P: Do you remember the first year t hat Black American students were recruited? M: I remember because I wanted to develop an experiment on the effect of the race of the interviewer in terms of how they responded to this picture inte rview. So I recruited the first Black who came and said will you please do this, and she said she would. This is in her freshman year. P: What was her major, do you remember? M: I think she went in to major in English. As a first year student, of course, she didn = t have a major. I asked one of our bright senior majors to jo in her and we practiced the interview. RandolphMacon has a pretty sizeable nursery school. They have children of ages three to six, about forty of them. Also, the First Presbyterian Church had a large number of preschool children. What we worked out was we did a random choice of the thr ee, four, and five years olds and put them into two categories. Before Christmas, the two students B the first Black student we had had and then one of my majors who had been exceptionally good in research B did the study. Then came Christmas and the Christmas break and the two inte rviewers swapped groups. In other words, the Black interviewer interviewed the one the White interviewer had worked with before. There was absolutely no change whatsoever in the answers. That indicated that so far as this very limited kind of study was concerned, there was no race of interviewer effect. It came close to being an experiment because we controlled all variables. The only thing is, some of these children, maybe I = ve told you about their responses, for example one of the questions that they ask after showing all the pictures, they did not use any racial terms, was are you White or are you, at that time I think we were using the term colored. The child said you go to Randolph-Macon and you can = t tell whether I = m White or colored? You have to ask me? Bu t that was a White child. We found that it was very difficult later. We also had one child respond in the second time and he said why do you

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SRC -10 Morland, page 141 all come down and show us these pictures? He said before Christmas, the maid came down and showed us the pictures. So the only Blacks they had known, you know, were maids. P: She was of course a student here. M: Yeah, she was a student at Randolph-Macon, but this couldn = t be comprehended I think by... P: Where was your office? M: We = re not a big campus. My office was in the, I like to call it the terrace level of one of the dormitories. P: Was that for the whol e duration of your tenure? M: I moved over when they built a new cl assroom building that served as a Language Learning Center. They had all the major equipment and all the soundproofed rooms. It served as an experimental, they had an experimental stage for drama, and they had classrooms which were excellent looking out over the Blue Ridge for the re st. They also had their art classes there, both the painting and the sculpturing. The two in the department of art were instrumental in working with the architects to get the kind of light they wanted for their students to have in the painting or in the sculpturing. P: What are some of your favorite things about Randolph-Macon Women = s College and why had you become so devoted to it? You do admit to being devoted to it? M: Oh yes, definitely devoted and also realizi ng that the single sex education is going out, it = s whether these three women = s colleges in our vicinity, Holland = s and Sweet Briar and RandolphMacon can continue to be the very fine educational in stitutions they are is open to question. I liked it because I got to know the administrators very well. I got to know them as, be as close to them as any other adults I = ve just about ever known outside of my family. The colleagues were from all different departments. We were small enough so that we didn = t associate just with those in our

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SRC -10 Morland, page 142 department, and we usually had a brown bag lunch, we discussed all kinds of things at such a lunch. Then there were the students. The student s who were responsive, who were appreciative, who were never any problem so far as the classr oom was concerned. In other words, there was no talking to one another or rattling or causing difficult y. It was an ideal place in which to teach in a liberal arts tradition with which all of us agr eed, but I also had an opportunity and permission to do research and writing and my activity in race relations. P: They rather encouraged that. M: They encouraged it. They quietly contributed to the Virginia Council on Human Relations. P: You think they might have been proud of you, some of them? M: Randolph-Macon gives two awards every year. One is the best teaching, the other is the one who = s brought distinction to the college. I was t he first one who was given the monetary award for bringing distinction to the college. P: I wonder how they justified that, I think we all know. M: I had done things outside of the school as well as in the school. P: How was your relationship with parents and nei ghbors and contributors to the college and so forth? Did your racial activity ever collide with the wishes and beliefs of people outside, the alums, some of the students? M: When the Lynchburg chapter of Virginia Council on Human Relations was attacked as a communist group... P: Who alleged that? M: One woman from Rich mond wrote constantly. P: A letter to the editor or what? M: Not the editor, no.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 143 P: She was an alum? M: She was not alum. P: She wrote to the school? M: She wrote to the local paper. P: To the Lynchburg paper. M: The Lynchburg paper, from Richmond. P: You don = t remember her name? It was a long time ago. M: I have it and I think you have it in the paper s. We had two papers: one in the morning, the Lynchburg Advance , and the Lynchburg News was afternoon. We had to have members of our group cover both [papers] and respond, we res ponded every time somebody claimed we were something that we were not. P: When you say respond, you mean to editorials and letters to the editor? M: We would send letters to the editor and they usually kept them down in size and number, but this just most overtook the paper during the time we were attacked mainly by people from outside. P: What years was it most acute? M: This would have been in the late 1950s, early 1960s. One of the persons who attacked us most vigorously was Landon Lane of Alta Vista , of Lane Cedar Chest . When I wrote the editor of the paper, Phil Scruggs who = s wife was on our faculty, the owner of the paper, Carter Glass, was very difficult to deal with. He did not like anything about integration. P: He was still alive at this time? Carter Glass the old man? M: Not the one who was in Congress, but the son of the one who was [in Congress]. He owned the paper. You = ve mentioned Virgil Wood. Whenever Virgil Wood = s name came up, it was Virgil

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SRC -10 Morland, page 144 Wood comma racial agitator comma. That = s the only way it was allowed to appear in the paper and that was because of Carter Glass insisting. P: What other kinds of things would appear in the paper? What kind of charges against you appeared? What was it like and what was it like to be at the receiving end of this? M: The charge was guilt by association. The S outhern Conference for Human Welfare was taken over by the communists, no doubt about it. I = ve read that in Carry Me Home , the new book that Diane McWhorter has just had published. She grew up in Birmingham and she talks about the final battle for civil rights in Birmingham. Since many of those who were on the board of the Southern Conference for Human Welfare developed the boar d of the Southern Regional Council, and we were an affiliate of the Virginia Council on Human Relations which in turn was an affiliate of the Atlanta based Southern Regional Council, we were t herefore communists. It was close to the Joe McCarthy period, which was a very scary period. I was at William and Mary when that happened and it was frightening the way guilt by association was developed. P: Did your members and yourself and your family experience personal episodes of harassment? Did you have phone calls and mail? M: We had many phone calls here. P: At your house, here at your house? M: Oh yes. Telling me that I should get out of town and other things. All you had to do was say if you = ll give me your name and your number, we can talk to each other, but if I don = t know who you are, I = m not going to talk to you. This is the only way they would serve. Then they would breathe into the telephone, just heavy breathing. P: You mean when you picked up the phone, the onl y thing you heard was this heavy breathing. M: Yes.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 145 P: That was if they heard a female voice answer the phone or was it any voice? M: Any voice. Tell your husband to get out of town, or tell your husband we = re going to get him if he doesn = t quit doing what he = s doing. We had somebody balled up some oily rags and set them on fire and threw them in our front yard. There was no cross, but there was that. P: Maybe they were very, very low income and couldn = t afford a cross. M: [Laugh]. But also, I got calls from the parents of ch ildren. Some of the were very unfriendly to put it mildly. P: Of the children you mean... M: I mean of our students. The parents of the st udents at school. They kept saying my daughter says you = re a very nice person and that she doesn = t think any of these things that you = re saying about him are true. But they said, we want you fo r the good of the school to resign. I said I have no reason to resign, why should I resign? P: Did your wife and children exper ience any of these harassments? M: Yes. Once or twice when they were leavi ng school, children would throw rocks at them and say your dad is a communist. It was not anything really serious, I think it was more playful than anything else. But it wasn = t pleasant for them or for us. P: To stone and call someone a communist is playful? M: [Laugh]. P: It = s a new definition for me. Did this in anyway unnerve you? Did you have any anxiety about it or did you see as part of the territory? M: I just saw it as part of the territory. We had other members of the faculty at Randolph-Macon, for example, who were frightened. I can remem ber one of them was threatened over the telephone and he sent his wife to the house next door and he sat at his door with a shotgun on his knees, and

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SRC -10 Morland, page 146 he had rigged up a bucket of water, if anybody opened the door it would pour on him. This was Robert Mead who did the definitive biography of Patrick H enry. But Bob was not very active with us, but he was with us, and yet he was very nervous. I was never that concerned. P: How did you maintain your cool. Were you denying some of the possibilities or you assessed the situation, you thought it was not seriously threatening? M: I didn = t think the threats were serious. I thought t hat these people were generally cowards. They wouldn = t tell us their name, they wouldn = t tell us who they were affiliated with. The one time I did have a response with name was from Landon Lane who was an Alta Vista of the Lane Furniture Company. When I wrote the editor, Phil Scruggs who was editor of the Lynchburg news and said when is this going to stop? How much longer do we have to accept all these letters and then refute them because it = s over and over again. We cannot let t hese false statements stand. I said will you please publish the letter that I am sending. I know it = s over-length, it = s over-time, and he said yes he would. He wrote an editorial by the letter. He said this is from Professor Morland. It = s given unusual space because there have been numerous attacks coming from outside of Lynchburg. We have good relations here and we = re just not going to accept anymore letters about the Lynchburg chapter of the Virginia Council on Human Relations. When that happened, I got a letter from Landon Lane who said well, they = ve stopped writing up there, but why don = t you and I correspond further about this. I wrote back I said I would be very happy to correspond, but I thought the whole matter of calling our group co mmunist was name-calling, it had nothing to do with us, we absolutely were opposed to totalitarian communism, we had had nothing in our activities that would support them, and if we c an move off that subject and talk about what the council is set up to do B and we had our statement on our station area and we had it elsewhere B that we were set to improve relations to estab lish an American in which everyone was treated fairly

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SRC -10 Morland, page 147 and everyone had an opportunity to achieve. If you oppose these things, we could discuss them because there are different ways to achieve these ends . I never heard from him, but I did indirectly hear that I had insulted him in a way by the letter that I wrote. So that was that. P: As you must recall, many activists who were concerned opponents of segregation and who worked hard for it were intimidated and were frightened and retreated often and withdrew and sort of hid their opinions sometimes. But you, as I = ve heard you talk I hear a man of great confidence and courage against these odds. M: I had the support of my family, particularly Ma rgaret, I had the support of my church. It was an unusual church. I had been among the founders of this splinter group which was really an ecumenical organization. P: Describe it to us. What = s the name of the church? M: Peakland Baptist Church. It = s still going strong. We go by a Baptist church on Eaglewood Road when come to our house. Our churches would be as different as any two organizations could possibly be. P: That wasn = t a Southern Baptist convention affiliate? M: No, we were affiliated with the American Baptist churches. P: And they looked favorably on your activity back in the 1950s and 1960s? How big was the membership? M: Not all members looked favorably. I remember one of them writing Landon Lane and saying what are we going to be able to do? It said what , our church is not growing like it should be. Landon Lane wrote back I was told, the trouble with your c hurch is that Kenneth Morland is a member and as long as he = s a member, you = re not going to grow or have any strength. By the way, we were

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SRC -10 Morland, page 148 formed the same year as Thomas Rhode Baptist, which is Jerry Falwell = s church. He has 20,000 and we have our 100 families still. P: In 2002. M: In 2002, yes. P: Despite that support, where does this sense of confidence come from. Did you have some early experience? How does a person gain this? You also reflected it in your ability to have confidence in yourself as you begin to be involved with peopl e of high stature and high profile, famous people. Lots of people don = t have this kind of confidence. Can you explain to me where this came from in your life? M: I = m not sure where it came from, but one other fa ctor in addition to family and church, was my position [at] Randolph-Macon Women = s College. I was totally supported by the president, by the dean, and by almost all faculty members. Most faculty members were members of the Virginia Council. I did get some flak when James McBride Dabbs was invited to speak and he was allowed to speak at Presser Hall which is a building for music performances and it was packed. I had the reassurance that I wouldn = t lose my job. Some of my friends did. Some of the ministers, for example, were thrown out of the churches. T hey lost some of the people who worked other kinds of positions, lost their positions, and they really suffered. But I did not in any sense other than I was accosted once or twice at parties, but told by the host afterwards we apologize for his misbehavior and he won = t do that again. P: Sounds like a very civil environment to live in. [End of Tape 6, side A] P: This is March 20, 2002. I = m once again here with Ken Morland and we = re having a discussion about people, events, and ideas and what have you. Last time, Ken, we were talking among other things about you had mentioned a stor y about Thurgood Marshall, but I wasn = t sure that we

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SRC -10 Morland, page 149 finished the story. He once told you or told so meone else that told you about his two close calls with his lynching, do you remember that? M: Yes, and these are stated in Jack Greenberg = s book Crusaders in the Courts . P: What did you think of Jack Greenberg = s book? His characterizations? M: I thought it was well researched, well written, and gave the best picture of Thurgood Marshall that I have received anywhere. P: And it was the Thurgood Marshall that you knew? M: It was actually Jack Greenberg who invited me to par ticipate as a social scientist in the Wilmington, Delaware case that ended up in Brown v. Topeka . P: You mentioned somewhere along the way a woman by the name of Belle Boone Beard, I love the ring of that name. Remind us what y our association and what you and her did. M: She chaired the department at Sweet Bria r and she studied people who were 100 years old, centenarians. Her students would do some research on that, but they would do it in other areas. All of my majors in [sociology] in their senior year had to conduct an empirical research project. What Belle Boone Beard and I did was to invite the students. We would take turns, we would have dinner at Sweet Briar and then discuss the research that the Sweet Briar students were doing, and then about a week later, we would have a similar session at Randolph-Macon. We would invite the students and Dr. Beard and we would have dinner at the Randolph-Macon dining hall and then go into our session in which our students presented t heir research findings and about which the Sweet Briar students would raise questions and Beard could raise questions as well. P: What were the topics of the studies again? M: They varied enormously. P: Were any of them on race relations?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 150 M: Yes, there were. The person who took my place has put about a dozen or maybe fifteen of the studies in book form, it = s right on that table over to the si de there and if I had it I could run down some names. P: What years was this in which this was taking place? M: All the time I was at Randolph-Macon. P: From the early 1950s? M: From 1953 to 1987. Every senior who got through their department had to conduct an empirical research project. P: When we talked about the Delaware case, we had talked about a fellow who was one of the expert witnesses. I think he commanded somehow that he = d be the number one and he went on and on and on. We found out who he was, didn = t we. Do you recall? M: Frederic Wertham. P: Was he a psychiatrist? M: Yes. P: And he sort of took over the ca se at the beginning, is that true? M: He had the whole day before the rest of us got up there. As a rule in a court case, the witnesses are not supposed to hear what the other witnesses are saying. That wasn = t strictly enforced by Chancellor Seitz who heard the case, but no one but Frederic Wertham and Jack Greenberg who did the questioning of him on the stand were there the first day of the Delaware case. P: I think in our last discussion about this case, we were wondering it was a federal or a state case and I think we discovered that it was a state court case. M: It was the state court, but by a higher court.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 151 P: It was appellate court. You won that case and that was, as I think you said before, the only case that was won outside the Supreme Court, is that true? M: Correct. Chancellor Seitz was very much on our side and the prosecutor didn = t have his heart in it either, although he did some cross examination. P: So defending segregation in Delaware may have been something of a weak sister position compared with the other four. M: It was. It was very different from Prince Edward County and Clarendon County, South Carolina and the other places. P: Last time I think we were talking, you had described some of the harassment that you = d experienced and conflict with people differing in opinion with you. I think you spoke of going to a meeting of the Defenders of Stat e Sovereignty and Individual Liberties here in Lynchburg. Do you remember the approximate year? Was it 1950s or 1960s? M: I could look it up, but I don = t remember the exact year. P: Did you know any of thos e people outside of that meeting? M: I didn = t know... Well I guess I did know a couple of them, or they knew me. We sometimes collided at social functions, but most of the hosts and hostesses kept us apart. They just didn = t want any disruption or anything unpleasant. P: So they were not outlandish figures in the comm unity, they were part of the community that would end up in park gatherings that were part of the standard community. M: They came from a family in Ly nchburg, primarily they did, which sparred and sold lumbar. They were in the construction area. P: Do you remember their names?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 152 M: The last name was Taylor . He accosted me at his sister = s hosted affair and said he didn = t like what I was doing and he didn = t like me, and his sister quickly came over and separated us before we could... P: Lots of segregationists were established mem bers and prominent members of the community in those days? M: Oh yes. That was the way of life here and they didn = t want to jeopardize it. They bought into the kind of belief that most southerners had, including m yself, that separation as we were doing it was best for both races. P: You say you had that same feeling you meant early in life? M: Early, early, as I grew up. Until I learned something very different at the student movement meetings outside of the South. P: In your travels through the South, some of y our assignments by the Southern Regional Council, the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, and the Federal Community Relations Service and so forth, did you ever encounter people or knowledge about the White Ci tizens Council or the Klan in any of those states? Did you know the name William Simmons in Mississippi at the time? M: Oh yes, he was [on the] White Citizens Council and I subscribed to their publication for a number of years because I wanted to see what they were saying and what they were doing. P: As did most of us who were studying them. W hat did you learn of him? You never met him did you? M: I did not knowingly meet him. I went over to one of the states that I was asked to speak was Mississippi for the Southern Regional Council and I st ayed with the very lovely White family in Jackson and the lady of the house was the one who c haired the meeting at which I spoke. She

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SRC -10 Morland, page 153 told me, she whispered to me as we came into the room, she said the White Citizens Council members are in the front row and the Klu Klux Kl an is in the back row, so keep an eye on them. P: Yeah, you told me that. William Si mmons could have been in that front row. M: He probably was, but I didn = t meet him personally. P: How about the Klan? Did you have an encounter with Klan members or any knowledge of them and their operations? M: No. The Klan lost all support by the educated, genteel, upper class southerners. They had a kind of revival in the 1920s springing, interestingly, from the film called A Birth of a Nation @ which I saw and which was very powerful in its effect. P: You saw it in its first showing back in the 1920s? M: I saw it before there were sound movies. T hey had subtitles and they had somebody playing the piano. P: You saw it in Birmingham in the theater? M: I saw it in Birmingham, yes. P: As a youth? M: Yes. P: And it was very effective? Did you see its impact on people in any way, can you recall? M: I thought it reenforced what many of the White southerners I knew felt. They did not like the Klan, they did not like hiding your identity and using viol ence, they were opposed to violence. I know my father was just absolutely adamant against the Klan and its people and what it was doing. P: Even though he was a segregationist in a sense? M: He followed the rules, but as a general practiti oner he had Black patients as well as White patients, and he said they were some of the best people he = d ever known.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 154 P: So there was a kind of a menta lity in between the virulent kind of racist who was sort of sick with White supremacy and a kind of a mentality t hat was go along and get along? Would you say that = s kind of how people adapted to the expectations of White supremacy? M: I think if you look at this on a continuum, on the far right you would have the Klan, and on the far left you would have Massive Resistance: we will not yield under any circumstance. P: Why do you call that the left? M: It was just convenient. Right tends to reenforce what is present more vehemently than what the left was trying [to do]. I guess that = s not a good thing to put on a continuum. P: But the massive resisters were interested in preserving their precedent in law for segregation? That was very, very firm with them right? M: Very firm. But the great mass in the middle didn = t care that much about it. They thought it was a good thing, that we were all better off this way, and we should continue this way of life. But they were adjustable. P: Lots of people just went along to get along. M: They went along because they thought this was the best possible arrangement of racism. They were functioning under the ignorance of the way Bla cks, African Americans, really felt about their status. P: Back to Virginia a moment, did you encounter in any way the Virginia Sovereignty Commission? Mr. Kilpatrick, of course, was their communica tions person. Did you ever have any encounters with them? M: I had telephone calls and I assumed they were from the massive resisters. They were urging me to resign my position at Randolph-Macon.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 155 P: Was that the Sovereignty Commission, the stat e agency, or was that the Defenders that were calling you? M: It would be the Defenders. P: The Virginia State Sovereignty Commission wa s an official state body that promoted states = rights and so forth and had pamphlets as you may recall, and t hat sort of thing. They never contacted you to your knowledge? M: No. P: But the defenders did contact you? M: I assumed the ones who called were Defenders. I think I described the meeting, for which you asked the date and I can find that out, when they went to Randolph-Macon and met in the music hall. I think I told you that Margaret urged me not to go and I said I = ll sit in the back, I = ll be quiet and nobody will ever know I = m there. P: But you = ll learn something. M: I wanted to hear the Episcopal minister from North Carolina who was a supporter of Massive Resistance and who was out of step with the Ep iscopal Church because while the Episcopal Church was pretty much segregated, they al so had Black congregations. They had one here in Lynchburg as a matter of fact. P: How about in Mississippi, did you ever have any contact with the Mississippi Sovereignty Commission or learn anything about it. You know t heir records have come to light recently under the current Sunshine laws and a number of revea ling things have been uncovered. Did you ever run into the impact of that outfit? I thin k it was a state agency as well in Mississippi. M: No. I had two different visits to Mississippi and I went to several towns and cities in Mississippi to speak for the Southern Regional Council. The Missi ssippians for Public Education, as I mentioned

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SRC -10 Morland, page 156 earlier, were primarily women. Wives of prom inent Mississippians. But they said what we need most of all in Mississippi is sound, public education and we = re not going to let the segregation issue wreck our public schools. P: Even though they may have preferred s egregation at the time in some ways? M: They probably would have, but they could s ee that it was handicapping Mississippi, that Blacks were not getting an adequate education. They were not given any kind of high aspiration to move toward. P: Do you think maybe that there was a readi ness among great numbers of White southerners to move toward desegregation at that point in the 1950s? M: I think there was a willingness if they were pushed and they realized certainly after the 1954 decision that the schools were going to be integrat ed and that they wanted to make it as smooth and as helpful as possible, and not close the public schools and Prince Edward County did. Prince Edward County did a great deal for other st ates and other cities, including Lynchburg. P: You think that perhaps the recalcitrance show n and the closing of schools and the initiation of Massive Resistance and all of that prevented some of these people of good will who were patriots and supporters of public education, you think that slowed down the process all together? M: I think it did. I knew the members of t he school board here in Lynchburg and they said under no circumstance will Lynchburg public school suffer what Prince Edward County has suffered. We = re going to keep our schools strong and we can move into desegregation. P: That was a school board member? M: Those were school board members. We had two very powerful people: one who was the CEO of General Electric, which had a very large pl ant and still does here; and the other was the pharmaceutical giant that made Chapstick. This was Everett Bond , the first one was Richard

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SRC -10 Morland, page 157 Gifford . I told them after segregation had been eliminat ed, I was able to tell them how much their stance had meant to Lynchburg to keep us sane and to keep our schools strong. P: Do you remember the first year of desegregation of Lynchburg public schools? M: I remember that there were two Black students, this is called token desegregation at this point, from the Paul Laurence Dunbar High School, which was an all Black school, were hand selected to go to EC Glass High, which is the major high sc hool here. They had a very difficult time of adjustment. P: Who initiated the case? Who hand selected them in other words? M: I think the school board working with the two schools did that. P: So the school board was ready to desegregate. M: The school board was ready. They did not want to have the public schools closed. P: By this time, it must have been the very early 1960s. M: Yes, it was probably about then. P: About 1960, 1961, something like that. It is on the record. Speaking of Massive Resistance, do you recall how it emerged? Do you remember so me of the conditions and some of the discussion by politicians and citizens about Massive Resistance? How the talk began about 1955 and 1956 and so forth? M: Harry Flood Byrd, senator, was the architect of Ma ssive Resistance. He also had powerful political control over the state of Virginia as you we ll know and he almost hand selected the governors. When it was somebody else = s turn, he would have them come. He was able to keep that control because it was exceedingly difficult for anybody to get to vote in Virginia. When we came, having lived in North Carolina and having voted there (I had also voted in Connecticut), we were required to bring not only our poll tax, but also receipts showing that we had paid our taxes for the house we

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SRC -10 Morland, page 158 lived in and that we actually did have a house and t hat we actually were in Lynchburg. It was a difficult, difficult process to get to vote. As I recall the figure, about 6 percent of the potential voters actually were able to vote. P: That was a White person feeli ng the pinch of criteria, right? M: It was a method by which those who believed in Massive Resistance, but it was more than just Massive Resistance, it was resistance to Franklin Roosevelt = s programs. I remember Roosevelt said there are too many Byrds in the senate. P: For much of that time, he was the chairman of the Finance Committee which is the doorstep to the federal budget. M: Right. P: And he maintained lots of control. Did he exer cise lots of national influence in the same way? M: I don = t think it spread very widely. If it did, they didn = t have the power that the massive resisters had in Virginia. The White Citizens Council were called business people without their sheets on. They were not of the violent Klan persuasion, yet they believed a lot of things that the Klan did. P: You = re saying the White Citizens Council, you = re referring to Virginia with that comment? M: Yes, it was very much here. P: White Citizens Council as well as the Defenders. M: Yes. P: And they had overlapping membership perhaps? M: Oh yes. They probably had duplicate membership, I don = t know. Let me just say one thing, maybe I told you this before. I was born in Huntsville, Alabama and I can remember after the A Birth of a Nation @ , there were parades of Klu Klux Klan people who masked their license plates and who were able to wear their hoods, and I can remember as a child, I lived across the street

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SRC -10 Morland, page 159 from a rather large field, Moore = s Field. The Klan would have an enormous cross and they would make a big bonfire and add all these ceremonial things. We children would sit in the shadows and watch them, it was a fascinating kind of thing. My father said don = t have anything to do with those people. P: And this was northern Alabama. M: This was Huntsville, yes. P: You were about how old? M: I was seven, eight. But they = re vivid, vivid memories. P: After Massive Resistance came aboard and lots of people supported it, it only lasted until 1959 as a legal position, right? It was knocked down... M: I = m not sure of the years there, but it did not last long. P: And it was knocked down, but did you see any other kind of Massive Resistance following the decline of the legal position? Would you agree with the statement that defacto Massive Resistance continued? If you look at the Prince Edward case and other school closing cases and so forth? M: There was a case that stayed in the courts. I = m trying to recall my memory here. For eleven years, George Jackson = s daughter with whom our youngest daughter used to ride horses, challenged the system in Lynchburg as being defac to segregation although the two high schoolers had gone ahead and found themselves in not a hostile situation, but certainly not a friendly situation either among the Whites or among the Blacks because when they went back to their own old friends, they said you don = t belong here, you = ve gotten over the to the Whites. So the Blacks themselves made it difficult for those two students, I can = t recall their names. P: Do you remember what year that might have been, or the decade? M: It was the first move toward desegregation which was called token desegregation.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 160 P: It should be early 1960s. M: Early 1960s, that = s what it would be. P: Lots of people argue that Massive Re sistance was over in 1959, but that = s when the state began to tell Arlington County they couldn = t desegregate, that = s when they began to support Prince Edward in its school closing. The year before, they had encouraged other localities to close either a school or a district. M: The governor appointed by Harry Byrd was Lindsey Almond. Lindsey Almond = s initial speech was a kind of fiery we will not have our schools integrated. I think I = ve told you this before, he was prepared to give a statement and we anticipated it would be in support of Massive Resistance, so five of us from the Virginia Council on Hum an Relations went to Richmond and we listened in disbelief that Lindsey Almond said we = ve gone as far as we can go, we can no longer defy the federal government, we must move toward desegregation. P: This was his turnaround speech. M: It was a turnaround and all of our speeches had to be turned around right at the moment. We supported him, but the one thing we did not agree with him [on] was that school attendance would not be compulsory. I mentioned that I had been in t he state in South Carolina doing my field work where school attendance was not compulsory. The very people that needed it most just didn = t go. P: There was a provision in state constitution argui ng that each district had a requirement to provide public education. M: Correct. P: In the Congress about this time, the turn of the decade was, and I guess it was in the early 1960s actually, there was this celebrated Southern M anifesto which all Virginia Congressman and others signed.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 161 M: By the way, the only two who did not sign that were Estes Kefauver in Tennessee and also Alfred Gore, Sr. Even Fulbright signed that in Arkansas. P: And every other congressman. Was it a manifesto in the senate as well? M: It was in the senate, I don = t remember it being in the House. P: I = m confused on that point. Did you see any impact from that? What do you think its effect was later? M: I don = t think it had very much effect one way or the other. P: You don = t think it encouraged recalcitrance at all among White southerners who were... M: It would encourage those in the minority who were very adamant about desegregation. In my home state of Alabama, George Wallace was sa ying segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever. Although later he changed. P: Could you tell me about organizations or peopl e that had they not been there in support of segregation, recalcitrant groups and people, had they not been there, desegregation would have gone much smoother? Can you recall some that you thought were particularly influential in dragging this out, individuals? M: I think the dragging out and the difficulty lie at t he feet of Harry Flood Byrd. He promised Prince Edward County that if you will abide by Massive Resistance, we = ll see that you get your educational funds and the like. He was the one t hat I would think most adamant in support. And the governors he had appointed up to Li ndsey Almond until Lindsey Almond = s final speech in which he said we can no longer have Massive Resistance. P: How about other people who were close to Byrd that might have been influential as well, or organizations? For example, where was the fait h community, the state church organizations and the corporate community and other such forces in the state and other states for that matter?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 162 M: I would say most of them were not directly involved one way or the other. The main stream churches remained segregated. Pe rhaps I mentioned this before, we = ve often said that Sunday is the most segregated hour of the week, but that is understandable because having their own church was one of the things that the segregated system a llowed Blacks to do. The other was to be the undertakers and the ones that conducted funeral homes. P: Were there any other opponents of desegregation that you can recall in other states that were important other than the ones we know about like Wa llace and so forth that were particularly of interest to you? M: I don = t remember any by name. When I spoke for the Southern Regional Council on the ways to move into integration or desegregation B we didn = t say integration, we said desegregation, which was less, at that point it didn = t cut as much B I had hostile questions from people as well as supportive questions. P: From who? M: The audiences that would listen to the presentations... P: For the Virginia Council on Human Relations and other organizations? M: This is Southern Regional Council. They were the ones that sent me out pretty far and wide. P: How about civil rights figures that you thought we re very important at that time other than the lawyers that you = ve already told me about? You knew Jean Fairfax of course. M: Yes, I knew her. We mentioned Belle Boone Beard before. She and I were the ones who founded the Lynchburg chapter of the Virginia Council on Hu man Relations and we did so at the Church of the Covenant where I hope you = ll be able to go with us tomorrow night. P: Tell us how that church fit in this movement, t he Church of the Covenant. Go into the story a little bit about how you founded the Lynchburg chapter. We talked a little about it, but not from...

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SRC -10 Morland, page 163 M: We got to know Bev Cosby, and I = m not sure under what circumstances, but we know that the swimming pools were closed in Lynchburg rather than integrate them. I went to a meeting of the city council and the city, some of the council members, particularly William Vaughan who had the General Motors franchise to sell cars here was adamantly opposed to integration. We went down to argue that we needed to have swimming pools for all of our children because a couple of them drowned in the James River because the only place they could go. I remember speaking to Vaughan = s statement that there can be shooting and other things if we integrate those swimming pools, and I said it = s pretty hard to hide your gun under a bathing suit. But he didn = t appreciate that, not at all. P: So you all went on to found the local chapter of the Virginia Council of Human Relations, the Lynchburg chapter, and this church , the Church of the Covenant B is that the correct name? M: Yes. P: Sort of was an important place for people to retreat . M: Very important, and Daryl Leran who writes for the Lynchburg News and Advance has done a history of Lynchburg so aptly described as a city unto itself. He gives Bev Cosby and the Church of the Covenant very high marks as being genuine practi tioners of the Christian faith. For example, when the swimming pools were all closed, public pools, they were filled in with dirt so nobody could even... Our children used to go to those public pools. The Church of the Covenant had a swimming pool which they opened to the public and Blacks and Whites and others came. They have, I don = t know how many acres, maybe 100 acres, I = m not sure. Also, Jerry Falwell was trying to get 146 acres for his new church, which will be the largest church in America, but the Virginia law says you can = t have more than fifteen acres controlled by a church or by a religious body. So I = m not sure how many acres they had, but anyhow, they did have a swimming pool.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 164 Our middle daughter wanted a swimming party at, t he only place you could have it was at the Church of the Covenant = s pool. So we called and we got permission and we were given the entire pool for the afternoon of our daughter = s birthday, but my wife had to telephone each mother and tell them that this party was to be held at the Church of the Covenant swimming pool and some of the mothers (Margaret will remember this better than I) did not want their children to go into a pool where Blacks had been for example. P: Do you remember other people in the Virgin ia Council on Human Relations like the executive directors? M: Paul Reeling and I were very close. Happy Lee , Heslop Lee and I knew each other quite well. P: And you worked together on projects in the organization = s efforts in lots of ways? M: Yes, we worked together initially in fash ioning statements of support for desegregation and having a truly integrated Virginia Council on Human Re lations in Richmond where our headquarters were. P: How about key volunteer members that worked with you at the Virginia Council level, at the state level? Do you remember some key people t hat you thought were particularly important and influential? M: I can see their faces, but their names... I w ould have to probably have their names somewhere, but they were wonderful. I remember one is Dr. Frank Daniel , and M.D. from Charlottesville used to go with us to Richmond. We would get together and get a group to go. Interestingly, he said he was riding with some fellow doctors. They passed a Black church and the doctor said Frank, those are your people up there. He said I don = t know any of them, they = re not my people, they = re Americans having the freedom of worship. P: Other people who were involved in desegregation, you knew Walter White [of the NAACP] didn = t you at some point?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 165 M: Yes, he was head of NAACP. P: Wasn = t he a founder? M: I = m not sure. The NAACP was founded in 1909 so I = m not sure he was, I doubt it. I got to meet him and to know him at an NAACP nationwide meeti ng in Oklahoma. I also met Roy Wilkins who took over as president for Walter White. P: What did you think of their efforts? M: I thought they were most admirable. They tried always to be reasonable. They said we = ve got to do the right thing. They stated the values found in our constitution and the bill of rights over and over. Marshall, of course, was related and that = s one of the times I got to know him well because he was the chair of a panel that we had. Char les Thompson was on that panel, he was editor of a newspaper in Washington. The other member, R obert Weaver, who was the first secretary of HUD, and Kenneth Clark and I made up the panel. P: You told me about that. M: I think I did. P: What about some others? You knew Wyatt Tee Walker didn = t you? M: Oh yes. Well, Wyatt Tee Walker was part of our group in Richmond and he came... P: Virginia Council on Human Relations? M: I got to know him through Virginia Counc il on Human Relations. I got to know Dean Tom Henderson at Virginia Union and John Ellison who was president of Virginia Union. That = s where we had our meeting. P: Did you know John Lewis, the present congressman at one point along the way? M: I met in Selma when I was working for the Community Relations Service Committee under former governor of Florida LeRoy Collins. He just seemed like an eager little boy to me, and now I see

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SRC -10 Morland, page 166 him as a congressman. Time changes, but John was brutally assaulted in the first march across Pettus Bridge. P: He was indeed. There were other people who were known to work on these issues. Did you ever meet Myles Horton in the Highlander Folk School? M: I did not. I heard about him and he was always, for those who were opposed to what he was doing, he was called communistic. As a matter of fact, that is the way our Lynchburg chapter of Virginia Council was attacked. Not that we were for desegregation, but that we were communists. P: That was true of almost all the chapter I think, wasn = t it? Richmond certainly. M: I had to stay in close touch with people in Atl anta in order to get the documents, in order to get some advice on procedure. So I wrote the Hous e on Un-American Activities Committee, Richard Ayres was head of it and the former governor [William Tuck]. P: He was on the HUAAC ? He was on the House of Un-American Activities Committee? M: Yes he was. P: And wrote him about what? M: I wrote him to ask if the Virginia Council on Human Relations had ever been cited as a communist organization. I received letters, and I still have copies of them, there has been no citation against the Virginia Council on Human Relations or the Southern Regional Council that they have anything to do with communism. P: William Tuck signed those letters? M: Richard Ayres did. P: Was he a key person? M: He chaired it. P: He was a congressman.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 167 M: I think he must have been a congressman [End of Tape 7, side A] yes. P: I know that you had a confrontation in Lynchbur g in which Carl Braden came here. Do you recall that episode? I dimly remember there was going to be an execution of a Black, and was it Carl Braden that came here to defend that fellow? M: I remember very well now. Ann Braden, his wife, is a graduate of Randolph-Macon Women = s College. She and Carl bought a house in a Whit e neighborhood, I forget which city it was. P: Louisville? M: And then gave it to, they act as a go-between for Blacks. P: Was this in Louisville where their organization... M: Yes, it was in Louisville. The wall between was... P: SCEF was what they called their organization, I think it was Southern Conference Educational Fund. M: As a matter of fact, when we were building this house, we had some detractors who said they = re probably going to put a Negro family in there. P: Because they knew your reputation? M: They certainly did. P: Did you get to hear much about your reputati on? Did people give you much feedback, like friends? M: The pastor of our church told me shor tly before he died that you know our stock wasn = t very high in Lynchburg back in those days of segregat ion. We were fighting segregation, Arthur Brown , and the minister who followed him was as integr ation is an equal treatment a person as you can find. P: I asked you some questions about the role of the corporate community and religious communities in desegregation efforts supporting people who were. We = ve talked about the Virginia

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SRC -10 Morland, page 168 government being on the side of desegregation for so long. What about the U.S. government? Were they on the ball shall we say on this? You might use Prince Edward County as an illustration. M: The Kennedys were a terrible let down for us. John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy really didn = t move to help the Prince Edward County situation readily. I thought it was very sad. They didn = t want to shake their southern base because they barely got B you know that was one of the closest races of Kennedy and Nixon in the history of presi dential races. So I was very disappointed that they did not give the enthusiastic backing of t he federal government in the particular case, and frankly I didn = t see them anywhere else until Selma. I got to know Burke Marshall who was... I = m not sure what position he held. P: Was he the head of civil rights for t he Department of Justice under Robert Kennedy? M: You = re right. You = ve got depth of knowledge on this. I liked Burke Marshall very much. P: You think people trusted him and thought he was sincere? M: Certainly those of us who were trying to get th is horrible institution of segregation destroyed in the South so that we could develop more rapidly, we could tap our citizens, all of the citizens = talents, and not have all these duplicated facilities which were wasteful and the like. Burke Marshall would really hold those ideals. Voting, of course, was the issue in Selma. P: You and I came together on one occasion over Pr ince Edward County. You knew people there, you had association with Gordon Moss and L Francis Griffin? M: Yes, I knew Gordon Moss. Gordon Moss was on the Virginia Council on Human Relations until I knew him. P: In the earliest days? M: In his early stage, yes.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 169 P: So he was early on an opponent of segregation? M: Without question. P: How about Griff, or L Francis Griffin? M: I got to know him very well. I think his was a home in which I was put up over night when I was down in Prince Edward. He was a minister and tri ed to hold classes in the basement of his church and other churches, Black churches, tried to do tha t, but they were not effective and yet they gave something for the Black children to do. P: To hold on to. M: Yes. P: You ended up writing a report on Prince Edward whic h I participated in, I did some of it. The story of how that got started is kind of clouded by several people who were in on it that I = ve talked elsewhere. Do you recall how that began with you? Who came to you to ask for help on preparing a report initially? M: I was asked to attend a session of the Ci vil Rights Commission of the U.S. government in Washington, [and] in effect invited to do a study and a write up, but that came directly from the Virginia group. P: The Virginia Advisory Committee? M: Yes, the Virginia Advisory Commi ttee to the U.S. Civil Rights Commission. P: You weren = t on that advisory committee at the time? M: No, I was not. P: But they invited you to do that. M: That = s right. P: Do you remember who spoke to you at that time?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 170 M: I don = t remember the individual = s name. I remember I did the report and I turned it in on time and I never heard a word from them. I don = t know what happened to it. P: So they asked you to do it. You asked for some help didn = t you, with other people? Was the American Friends Service Committee, did Bill Bagwell or a name come up in connection with helping do some of the field interviewing and so on? M: I don = t recall. P: Do you recall getting in touch with me to do something like that? M: Oh yes, because your name was prominent among persons who were very knowledgeable about what was happening in Prince Edward County. P: So you got in touch with me and listed the furt her interviewing and further work and I submitted that to you. Then you added materials, from my worki ng draft you added quite a bit. It became a rather monumental piece of work later because you and I have seen it recently. So you added Robert Green = s material to it and some other sources you used and prepared a rather thorough report. You worked with the commission staff in Wa shington in connection with this, did you? M: Yes. P: Do you remember who you turned it into? M: I don = t remember. P: Does the name Sussman mean anything to you? M: I couldn = t even find out what ever happened to the report. No reaction directly to me. P: Do you have any theories about why it died at the commission? M: I really don = t know. I haven = t even made any kind of conjectures as to what might have happened.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 171 P: You did write me a letter and say that you m ade something of a connection with the campaigns at the time to renew the Civil Rights Commission = s life in the Congress and also the upcoming Civil Rights Act of 1964. Your report was turned in I think in early January. M: It was. P: Could you speculate now about why it might have been killed with those facts in mind? M: I think that the U.S. government, particularl y with the Kennedys, it was Lyndon B. Johnson who got the 1964-1965 Civil Rights Act through, it wasn = t the Kennedys. I = m sure they wanted to do it, but they wanted to remain in power as president and as attorney general and they would have been much better than the opposition in my case. It might have been that this could have mudded the waters and would have done more harm than good. P: Because it would have irritated Senator Byrd particularly? M: Well, Senator Byrd was never their supporters to put it mildly. It was more the rest of the South which was a little less adamant than Harry Byrd. P: You mean the other states were less adam ant about the Civil Rights Commission and the Civil Rights Act? M: They were less organized, less powerful because of Byrd = s position as you said on the Finance Committee. Alabama, my state, had Sparkman w ho was fairly open on this and the other senator at the time was also B who was that, the other senator? P: I can = t remember the other senator. M: I think he got into the hospital bill and his name is on that so I can look at that. John Sparkman was open to this. P: You mean the Civil Rights Act? M: Yes.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 172 P: Did he vote for it do you think? I didn = t recall that. M: I don = t know about that. He ran as vice president did he with whoever succeeded... I = m not sure, but at one time he ran as vice president. P: Back to the study for a moment, do you recall t he essential findings of the study that you reported on and what you were trying to tell the commission and for that matter the congress in the administration? M: I have not, Ed, since you so kindly ran that off, I have not been able to sit down and go through it. There are a couple of pressing matters that... P: I understand, but it was a very good piece. M: Well, it was heavily dependent upon your actual findings and interviews. P: Dr. Green too from Michigan State and other people who = s names slip my mind. M: Wilbur Brookover was essential in getting me involved with Robert Green and his Michigan State study group. P: It was a formidable thing and you wrote me back then to the effect that they didn = t like the fact that it was called a tragedy to close public schools and that that was considered excessive and militant somehow. M: Maybe it should have been renamed, I don = t know, but I thought it was a tragedy because the one thing the Michigan State group found was that if t hese children at ages six through ten particularly get no public education, they can never make up that difference. P: The bottom line is that the study never came to light, but that we do have copies of it today. M: Correct. P: For those who would like to read it. M: Right, I = d be happy to.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 173 P: And some day we = ll have it readily available as a document in the history of Prince Edward County. We were speaking moments ago about the Bradens who were with SCEF and we had talked about Ann Braden, but we know that Carl Braden came to town on one occasion, did he not? Can you tell me what you recall about Carl Braden? M: Carl Braden came to town because he was concerned about the rape case that a Japanese woman had claimed a Black person had committed. He was below normal in intelligence, the Black person, and it was very difficult to deal with. One interesting side light, the Japanese woman, they couldn = t understand her so they called our professor of Japanese, David Anthony to go down, and he got exactly what she was saying and put it into good English. He said the reason why she was speaking English but they couldn = t understand her English. So he acted as though he was translating Japanese, he was translating English. P: She was a visitor to the area or something, or was she a new immigrant? M: No, she lived here and the accused lived here. It was a pretty widely known case and Carl Braden came, I found later, to be sure that justice being done. He had in one case, an Episcopalian priest had saved a Black from being executed because this was in Kentucky where Carl lived, and Carl himself had been instrumental in saving Blacks. So he came to Lynchburg, tried to talk to the police, and they were noncommital. P: Do you remember the year? It was the early 1960s, was it not? M: It was early 1960s, yes. P: But you don = t remember the year? M: He said after they were not forthcoming, I = m going to see Professor Morland. So the headline in the news came out that Professor Morland was to say alleged communist Carl Braden. They

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SRC -10 Morland, page 174 telephoned me, the newspaper did, because Carl called me and I told him while I was at home, but I = d be glad to meet him at the college. P: How did he know you? By reputation? M: He knew me by reputation, he also knew the book Millways of Kent in which the union gets a very strong support in terms of what the peopl e said about the union and said about the Cannon and particularly the nonCannon mills in the town of York where I lived for a year. He did a write up of that book in the little newsletter that he and Ann Braden published. So I told him I would meet him there. He had become confused thinking I was Jay Earl Morland who was president of RandolphMacon for many years and who = s daughter had gone to Randolph-Macon and she knew Ann at Randolph-Macon. So he just wanted to renew acquaintances with Jay Earl Morland = s daughter. I said my daughters are not out of element ary school so you must be thinking of Jay Earl Morland. We went ahead to talk and he said he wanted to see the president of the Virginia Council on Human Relations, he taught at Sweet Briar, and I called out there and got him on the phone. P: Who was that, do you remember? M: I don = t remember his name. P: But he was president at the time of the Virginia Council? M: He was president at the time, yes. He was I think about the fourth or maybe the fifth president of our local chapter. His name doesn = t quite come, but I can get it later. Carl went on out there to see him and I never heard anymore about it except the newspaper called me that night and said did you see him? And I said yes, he came to the college and we had a very pleasant kind of talk, but he was confused about my identity because he thought I was Jay Earl Morland. So he told me about the book that I = d written and that he had liked it and he had written a review of it and I thanked him for that. I didn = t say anything more about it because I didn = t want them to get after

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SRC -10 Morland, page 175 the president of the Virginia Council on Human Rela tions. I said we departed in a very delightful way, and that was all. P: Braden had a reputation as a very radical person in the region. M: Yes. P: I = m not sure he was known nationally, right? But he was known in the region. M: But the next day in a headline, the Lync hburg news said Carl Braden misidentifies RandolphMacon professor, and then they went into the conversation. P: Was this the front page? M: No, it was inside. Local news, but it was in big black letters. P: Speaking of the Lynchburg newspapers, t here were two at the time in the 1960s? M: There was the Lynchburg News in the afternoon and the Lynchburg Advance which some of them called the Lynchburg retreat in the morning. But they were combined into one paper and I = m not sure when that took place. P: You were widely known here for your activiti es in Lynchburg and beyond. What other occasions did you find yourself waking up in the morning with your name splashed across in headlines? Do you recall other instances? Did it happen often? M: I think I = ve told you about my attending the Defenders of State Sovereignty meeting at RandolphMacon. P: What did the paper say the next day? I don = t think you told me that. When you opened the next morning... M: You = ll recall that Jack Teeter , the Episcopal priest was the director of a Black Episcopal church, the Church of the Good Shepherd. I had know n Jack through the Virginia Council on Human Relations, this was a meeting place that was so val uable for all of us. By the way, the only church

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SRC -10 Morland, page 176 which allowed us to meet at any kind of central location was the unitarian church. They had to get special permission and they took out extra insurance, I think I told you about that. Anyhow, I arrived at the same time Jack Teeter and a Black parishioner arrived. They said oh, there = s Ken, let = s go with him to the meeting. So all walking with Jack Teeter whom they despised because he was White and should know better. In a way, the Defenders of State Sovereignty and Individual Liberties, the ones who wanted to maintain segregat ion were much harder on the Whites who were betraying their race. They could understand why Bl acks did this, but on the other hand they could not comprehend why anybody who was born and grown up in the South would act this way. We went in and we sat down together. I think I = ve told you the story, there was an Episcopal priest from North Carolina who was very Massive Resist ant oriented and he was out of the mainstream of the Episcopal ministry, but anyhow, the organizer of that meeting saw Jack Teeter sitting next to his parishioner, a Black, and I was sitting on the other side of the Black. He said we do not allow integration at our meetings. Jack Teeter showed up and said this is my parishioner, he = s in my church so we do a lot of things together. Then they said we know Professor Morland there and we asked for this meeting place and don = t we have a right to segregate if we want to since we were the ones. I said we never had anything segregated at our school, but I would find out what the policy was. So I called the president who was c onveniently out of town and I called the dean of the college and I called the dean of women and I told her things are getting pretty rough down there, what do you think we ought to do? Just go tell them it = s the rule that whoever pays for using this building has a right to structure it as they wish. So I went down back to the meeting place, police had already arrived and the one sitting in front of me said I = ll integrate them (making his hands as though he would crush people). I reported that this organizer was correct. That they did have the right to have a segregated if they wished to. By that time the police were coming in and Jack

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SRC -10 Morland, page 177 Teeter and his parishioner left. The next day, there was the headline R.M. professor involved in segregation incident at Presser Hall at Randolph-Macon and they went ahead to say what had happened. P: Amazing. So you found yourself in the headlines on a number of occasions. M: A number of occasions, yes. P: Let = s turn now to some of your academic work and the research that you did, particularly that related to the harmful effects of racial segregati on on children. That was a key theme in lots of your work, wasn = t it? M: Yes it was. P: How did you happen to choose this topic? When did you start to get interested in it? M: I started this at William and Mary when I taught there. P: What initiated it? Where = d you get the idea that it was important? M: Kenneth and Mamie Clark had done the pioneering res earch. I had read that research, I was very much interested because I wanted to see if I got similar results using a different measuring instrument. I wanted also to do testing with this instrument in various places in the South. P: So you had read about Clark = s work and you saw that it had an implication for race... M: Later it was quoted in the 1954 decision of the Supr eme Court as the central point that led them to overthrow the 1896 Plessy v. Ferguson decision. This was the point of the NAACP calling in social scientists so that psychologists, psychiatrists, so ciologists, and anthropologists in order to find out what happens to children who grow up in the ki nd of segregated society and the stigma that segregation would bring.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 178 P: Later one when you began to make contacts in China, you had your experience after Yale and so forth, did you think then I wanted to do it in a cu lture significantly different from our own? How did you grow to think of doing it cross-culturally. M: I applied for a Fulbright grant. P: And you got it right? M: I got it. And taught one course in social anthr opology at the Chinese University of Hong Kong. It was bilingual university which you could use ei ther language and it was soon discovered that the English of my students was much better than my Chinese so we did everything English. I told them, I said one way to understand out discipline is to gather research as an anthropologist/sociologist would do. So I said I want us to study preschool children here and find out what kind of identification they are making of racial ethnic differences and to see if it = s different from the United States where t he structure is highly segregated. The Chinese made up 98 percent of the population of Hong Kong, but yet the Whit es from England were in dominant positions and were very prominent in the newspapers and elsewher e, and their children were there with them. Our children went to a school called King Geor ge V, which happened to be British, and also the Kao Lung Junior School and there they had extensive in tegration of White and Chinese. So I got my students to look at the English set of questions that went with my set of photographs. They translated it into Chinese which they would have to use with these children. I took the Chinese to professors who were bilingual and I said what does th is say in English, translate it. Well, it wasn = t quite what the questions meant to me. So I went back to the class and I said look there = s this trouble and this trouble and this trouble, and they said oh we see. Then they went into Chinese and talked with each other and they came up with a revised. Then I took that to another bilingual

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SRC -10 Morland, page 179 professor and I said what does this Chinese say in English? Still had problems. I went back and they ironed them out pretty well. So we had the interview questions very well tested. It = s always bothered me when somebody comes and just does a translation one time and has somebody use it. You can = t do that, you = ve got to work at it harder. One thing that my students also did for me was to help me develop an instrument with White and Chinese children as I had done with White and African American children here. So I call ed Mainland Studio and we rented a room and had a whole lot of cakes and cookies and cold drinks for the children, and I got my students to invite their preschool brothers and sisters and to come in and I invited members of the faculty who were Chinese and members who were American, Whites, and we made a whole set of pictures. Then I had the class decide which pictures were most appr opriate to go with these questions. Then, the students went out and did the interviewing, most ly of Chinese and these so-called estates, euphemistically called, that the British had built fo r the overflow of Chinese coming out of the mainland. They did that up on the roof, the only place they had to play because there wasn = t any room in Hong Kong to play except on the roof of the buildings, but they had to put high wire around it so children wouldn = t fall off. But they played soccer and other games. My students went in and talked to the teachers and they allowed them to interview. So I got the way Chinese in a nonsegregated situation identified them selves and identified others. It was an interesting response. The general response, we would show them a picture of a B we didn = t know what term to use and after a long time we decide we could call them a westerner rather than a White and a Chinese B and we would hold pictures and say which looks most like you? We would have White children, western children. Then we would have pictures of women, Chinese and White, and which looks most like your mother? And then of men which loo ks most like your father? The almost consistent answer was I don = t look like any of them and none of them look like my father, none of them look

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SRC -10 Morland, page 180 like my mother. They were looking not at diffe rence in racial ethnic background, but they were looking more at individualistic tr aits which was fascinating to me. P: So they didn = t have a concept of race in the sense that you = d seen in your other studies? M: They did not have that particularly in any sense t hat made it difficult for them too identify with their own race. P: Could you detect any harm that came from this vi s-a-vis the fact that they were in lower standing or status among the Europeans? M: My students went to the private schools, as well. We couldn = t possibly do a random sample, but the children of the lower socioeconomic and the child ren of more higher income families that went to private schools had very similar answers, you couldn = t tell the difference. P: So you had parallel information with which to compare in the United States now to see, to ________ this. M: You had comparative information that coul d be related to the social structure, that = s what I was getting at. To followup on that, I got a grant from the Department of Education and went to California. I knew, from my work with the Americ an Baptists, a Chinese minister there, I knew him very, very well. He arranged for me to visit va rious schools, but I also was able to find a colleague in Taiwan who would conduct this work with me, Huang Chin Ho . He had gone interestingly to the Yale school in China at which I taught, he had gone in an earlier year. He had quite a story to tell because he had left Nanjing when the civil war was going on between the communists and the Guomindang and he was told that Nanjing is in flames and you can = t go back. So he and his family have been in Taiwan all these years. We got to see them again probably for the last time in 1996. Huang Chin Ho did the studying of Chinese ch ildren and I got students at the San

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SRC -10 Morland, page 181 Francisco University to interview the members of whatever race they were according to U.S. Again, a very different response from the child ren in Hong Kong and in Taiwan. I spent three summers over in Taiwan with Huang Chin Ho and we went all over that island and did testing, so we have a large number of cases. In San Franci sco where you do have a racial structure, maybe it = s breaking down, I don = t know, but we got answers like this: one child said I used to be White, but my mother took me out in the park and left me in the sun so now my skin = s a little darker. This was unheard of by Chinese in Hong Kong or in Taiwan. It related directly, we can claim, to the social structure. If you change that structure, if you remove the stigma that comes with lower castlike affiliation, then you have a child who more completely accepts who he or she is without any difficulty. [End of Tape 7, side B] P: This is March 21. We = re in spring and you can look outdoors and see that it fully is spring today, it = s a lovely day. I = m here once again with Ken Morland and we = re discussing lots of things. Ken, yesterday we were picking up some loose ends about events in the past. You were describing some of the studies you did which incl uded multicultural children, that is children in Taiwan, in Hong Kong, in California, and in Virginia , is that right? Were there other places where the children subjects were found other than those four places? M: Yes. My Randolph-Macon students obtained results in New York, in Pennsylvania. P: What localities were they? M: One was from upper state New York, the other wa s from out of Philadelphia not very far. In the book Race, Color, and the Young Child , I have fourteen of my students cited for the work that they did, and they = re also in the bibliography and in the index and they = re all real pleased with that.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 182 P: No doubt, and it probably helped them in their careers, whatever career they chose. You tried to simulate an experiment in one of these studi es or several of them perhaps, and you had an interesting response from one child that was well remembered. Can you give me that account? M: What I wanted to test B and this was an imperfect experiment and its very limited B was the question that is constantly raised in the literature or study of young children, does the race of the interviewer make a difference in the response of the subject. So when Randolph-Macon was able to obtain its first Black student, I asked her to work with one of my majors in interviewing children at the Randolph-Macon nursery school. There were about forty children in that nursery school, twenty of them three to four years and old and twenty of them four to five years old. What we did, the three of us working together, was to do a random sample of all forty children and divide it in two and before Christmas the two interviewers used t he picture test interview and obtained results, and then after Christmas they swapped and the ones in the nursery school who had had the Black interviewer were given the White interviewer, and the one who had had the White interviewer was given the Black interviewer. So they had exactly the same children in an interval of a little over a month, maybe a month and a half. P: The interviewers, what were their appearanc e? Were there any controls on their appearance, quasi-experimental controls? M: I tried to match the students as well as I c ould in size and both wore glasses. The major difference, those trained to see racial differences would be that they were of a different race. I remember some of the remarks of the children. One of the children who were the subjects when asked the question after no race has been referred to at all in the test itself, the interview itself, the final question is are you White or are you colored (I think that was the term we were using then). One White child said you go to college and you can = t see the difference? Why do you have to ask

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SRC -10 Morland, page 183 me that? Then in the second round, the remarks of one of the children to the White interviewer was why do you all come down and ask us these questions and show us these pictures? He said last fall they sent a maid to do that. P: Meaning? M: Meaning the only Blacks they = d ever seen were those who had done menial tasks as maids or cooks. P: And this interviewer had been Black. M: Yes, they were referring to the Black interviewer. P: And these were White children of course. M: That = s right. P: So their only experience was with a lim ited number of roles for Blacks and they couldn = t imagine a Black... M: The outcome was that there was no difference in response. P: Between the two races. Both of t hese young women had both appeared to have the unique Randolph-Macon polish, did they not? M: We worked on this very deliberately until they had memorized the questions to be asked and we had a checklist which was non-obtrusive and they could check the answer for each of the questions. We worked that out as a sort of tabular way to get at the numbers who responded. P: You have authored or co-aut hored six books, is that right? M: That = s correct. P: Would you say that your book Race, Color, and the Young Child is the one that embodies the major findings for all of these studies you did?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 184 M: Yes. That was done with John Williams. He was a developmental psychologist at Wake Forest and chairman of the department and later became editor of A Cross-cultural Psychology @ , a journal to which I contributed. When I was in Hong Kong, I wrote John, we had not met, and I said I thought this would be a good setting in which to use your instrument to get at racial prejudice more than my instrument did. My instrument attemp ted to find out racial self-identity and the age at which racial and ethnic differences could be recogniz ed. So that started a very long collaboration. P: You knew him from the literature, is that right? M: I knew him from the literature, yes. P: What were the principle findings reported in that book? Is there a way to summarize what you proposed as the main propositions out of that book? M: The ones that I think I mentioned earlier wa s that in the American system where you have a multiracial society with a status and class positi on allotted to race and you have a higher status for one and a lower status for others. We found that t hose in the lower status had difficulty coming to grips with who they were. Kenneth Clark reported th is in the pioneer study that he did with dolls. We found us some dramatic differences, not only in the South, but also my wife was interviewing in West Hartford, which a largely an all Black community... P: Connecticut. M: Connecticut, yes. When she asked the question of a Black girl, she said are you White or are you Black or colored or whatever term we were using there. The girl said first of all I = m Black. Then her face changed expression and she said no, I = m White, I want to be somebody! This was a kind of dramatic response that you rarely got from a child, a preschool child. P: Most of the subjects of these studies, were they preschool children? M: Yes, they were all preschool children.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 185 P: What is the year of development that raci al consciousness or color consciousness is introduced? M: It is most clearly evident in the move from three y ears old to four years old. By four years old, they are able to differentiate pretty well. At five years better, and have they not been to school... You see when they = re assigned a school by race or when you get racial balance as you have in Lynchburg and again you assign by race, it = s very obvious how important race is and so there = s no point in trying to get racial self-identity afte r children have very deliberately been selected on the basis of race. P: Is there a point where there is a color detection that = s prior to the learning of the status differentiation on the stigma associated with those colors? M: Yes, in the three and four year olds there is generally no indication of... Well even before there is clear-cut knowledge of the use of the terms for the ra ces, there is racial bias in the minority group. P: Bias meaning a stigmatization of some sort? M: Prejudice, taking on society = s prejudice against the lower racial category. P: And the source of this learning B we know it = s not inborn B the source of this learning would have to be family and the preschool and other instituti ons that this young child would be submerged [in]. M: They would be family, television, any of t he mass media that young children might be acquainted with, playmates. The reflection of the society co mes out through the media primarily, but also they go to all Black churches, all Black schools, Whites go to all White churches or White schools (when they do go to church) so they are living in a society which is stratified by race. P: Speak a moment about the implications of this for overcoming ideas of White supremacy and stigmatization of people of color and so forth. What did learning from these children and this research tell you about what kind of social policies we ought to try to institute?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 186 M: This has to be extrapolated from the data and it is a judgement, but the clear-cut result of my research and the research by John Williams certainly and by Kenneth Clark was that unless and until you changed the situation so t hat segregation would no longer be required, particularly in the public schools, you would begin to break down that difficulty of self-identity among the minorities and the attitude also of the White children. P: No small task is it? M: It isn = t, but certainly the first step was desegregation because it was the structure of the society that as sociologists and anthropologists and in cro ss-cultural studies as well as here that John Williams and I agreed was primary. P: Does this imply that the homogenization of all identities, racial and ethnic identities, should be a goal? By that I mean should ethnocentric studies and all the things that implies, is that untoward in achieving the equal society? M: I = m not sure what you meant by homogeneous. P: To wash out all the self-identity that = s distinct by race or ethnicity. M: No, it doesn = t wash that away. P: It isn = t necessary to wash that away. M: It = s not necessary, no. It seems to me essentia l to make that kind of identity relatively unimportant. That is, you don = t go around classifying people by weight or by stature or in a lot of other physical ways. P: There is some employment discrimination and so forth, by weight and so forth. M: I know that there is, but there isn = t the strong support from the social structure. There is an ideal, I know, size and shape we = re supposed to be. P: Rather intense criteria I would say.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 187 M: Yeah. P: You = ve written several other books. We talked about your Millways of Kent in great detail. There are four other books that you had: [The] Not So Solid South, Group Identity in the South, Social Problems: Christian Understanding and Response, and the other one was... M: Social Problems in the United States . P: Yeah. Of those, what did you try to achieve in those books? Take one or two or all of them and tell us what you tried to achieve. Let = s talk about the two that had to do with the South, Solid South and Group Identity in the South . Could they be companion books somehow? M: Yes, they would be. What I did was to fi nd people who were interested in writing about the South and whose research had been there. By the way, I was trying to remember who from VCU was among those in The Not So Solid South . P: I don = t remember. M: I = d have to look that up. But I asked him and about six or eight others to form one of the programs at the Southern Sociological Society. They made t heir presentations there which were criticized or at least reacted to by members of the audience and also by the other members of the panel. I did a similar thing for the American Anthropological meeting in New Orleans. We had a group and out of those presentations we put The Not So Solid South , which we wondered do you need hyphens in A Not So Solid South @ and we thought that would be unnecessary taking up all that print. The emphasis, I worked with Charles Hudson [from] the University of Georgia on this, he was the overall editor for that report for the American Anthropological Society and for the Anthropological Society of the South. He was the one who approved of the panels and we worked together very nicely on that. The book was criticized by somebody at the University of Kentucky who made a lot of fun of it. He said oh, see those southerners flyi ng or all these different kinds of people. What we

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SRC -10 Morland, page 188 wanted to show as that the South was not just a united hole, there was a regional South but there were also variations and somebody studied t he mountain people and others studied those on the posts. Some studied specific kinds of occupations t hat were present in the South. The idea was to emphasize that where as the S outh is a geographical region, it = s not a unified total. It = s interesting that John Shelton Reed and the Univer sity of North Carolina Chapel Hill has developed a journal called A Southern Cultures @ . He himself was opposed to using a plural A cultures @ , and I would call them subcultures. I got into trouble with a reviewer from a textile magazine saying he went there and found they were below normal, they were a subculture. He didn = t quite understand what the division was. P: These regional distinctions of course had subdivi sions as you say. How is that southern culture holding up today? Is it intact? I was going to ask you about the influences of modern information transmission, what with television, film, radi o, Internet, and a host of other [things], and the traveling of people, the merger of music tradi tions and a host of other things in which one subculture sucks up another one and there = s a new form created. What has happened to the issue of race as this change occurred and how radical is it, the change? M: I think it = s far reaching and I think it is exceedingly difficult to identify people in the South as being different from people elsewhere in the United St ates. Lynchburg is a good example. They did have the dominant industry here was Kraddock Shoe Company, but once General Electric came in and it = s a still a very large pardon here, it brought people from Schenectady, New York and from other areas that GE (General Electric) had. They = re still making cell phones and other things of that sort here, it = s an enormous plant. The other big move was Babcock and Wilcocks , they brought in engineers from all over. So those who had been brought up in the South got to know people from all the rest of the United Stat es, and these industries greatly influenced.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 189 P: Diluted. How about the militar y? Assigning military personnel from all over the country into regions of the South? M: I don = t know that that explicitly had anything. Ther e are still places where soldiers are trained in the state, but I don = t think they have had the widespread influence that, as you mentioned, communication, television, everybody watches the television and people all over are more and more at one point are speaking like Walter Cronk ite or by other anchors on the T.V. shows. P: For example, you never hear southern acc ents from some deep south politicians now do you. M: You do not. P: They have national accents. M: That = s correct. P: I think washed about a bit, and they were natives. I was just thinking Virginia = s an example, the Tidewater area, the cities of the Tidewater are so heterogeneous. The same case is Virginia = s biggest city, which is a county, nearly 1 million people in Fairfax alone and hardly anybody = s born in those areas. They = re all from other parts of the... Am I right to assume that that is happening throughout the South? That = s the magnitude of the cultural change? M: It = s happening throughout the South, but I think Fairfax and Arlington and Alexandria would be very special cases because they = re so near the capital of the United States where you get all kinds of people of course in the political system. P: Your book on American social problems, that was a textbook? M: Yes, it was a textbook published by Ronald Press which went out of business by the time it was published. P: My assumption is this didn = t have anything to do with that, this book.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 190 M: I was hoping it didn = t. No, they were on the ropes as it was. The whole publishing house was controlled by one person named Ronald and when he died, there was no leadership provided and John Wiley and Company took it over. P: Was there anything distinctive about that book that you especially would point out to me? M: I reached out to get others with whom I could work. Jack Balswick was a sociologist from Iowa who was teaching at the University of Georgia, and there were two others. The four of us divided up the chapters that we would do, and I asked them to do it in a systematic way. One, to identify the social problem. We all agreed on a definition. It = s a situation about which people are concerned and about which they wish to take remedi al action. So we had to justify each of the social problems we took as areas which people were concerned about, and where their activities were going on to remedy it. I took the chapter on race and racial relations. Jack Balswick was probably the best of the other writers and he t ook the one on marriage and family and right now I = m forgetting who those others were. P: You were pleased with the book? M: I was pleased with it. I wasn = t entirely pleased with the kind of reception... I thought people all over would be glad to have a book that had a framew ork for each of the chapters identifying it as a social problems, giving the factual data about it, presenting what was being done about it, and then looking at where we went from there on the problem. So these we re the steps that were taken. P: Your most recent book was about social problems as well, but this had a new wrinkle in it. Tell us about what inspired this and what you tried to do with this book Social Problems: A Christian Understanding and Response . M: Jack Balswick who got his doctorate in sociology from the University of Iowa obtained a contract from Baker Book House which is in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Jack had since moved out to

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SRC -10 Morland, page 191 Pasadena, California and was on the faculty of Fuller Se minary. He asked me if I would join him in doing this book, that he wanted me to take the sociological analysis of each problem, and then he would do the Christian response. My hope was that something that I found very much lacking in my own Yale University Divinity days was anyone w ho told me about sociology as a scientific study of society and how it could be done and how we could increase understanding, I presented what I thought was the situation and then Jack did the res ponse in terms of what he thought Christians should do. So I had hoped that this book would be [of] value. I could not have used that in my classes at Randolph-Macon because it had this bias in it, not in the analysis of the problem. P: The part that you did was sort of a textbook in social problems in America, but his response was to look at Christian creeds and see what is implied. M: Particularly at Biblical kinds of... I was a li ttle uneasy with the way he used Biblical response. He would not use it literally and he said explicitly tha t, but there is a kind of spirit that gets into the ethics and the morality of various situations. That book sold 5,000 copies. P: What was disconcerting about his... It had this s pecial purpose of speaking to the responsibility of Christians for social problems, did it not ? Why did it disturb you in anyway? It = s too literal you mean or what was the problem in your mind? M: I had hoped that the book would have had wider dist ribution than it did. I had hoped that it could go into a school like Yale Divinity School or Ha rvard Divinity School and people would hale this, but I felt that his analysis using the Bible was really not the kind of analysis that would suit Yale or Harvard or Emory or some of the other divinity schools. P: How not? Why wouldn = t it? What would be different about their analysis from a Christian perspective than his?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 192 M: I think it is a Christian perspective, but I think he uses the Bible in a non-sophisticated way and an overly simplified way, and that turned out to be a rather weak, to me, response. Apparently, schools like Fuller just took it because he had these students and one way to sell books is to require your students to buy it, but I was curious to know whether the divinity school here in Lynchburg at Liberty University would buy that. They looked down B they thought Fuller was too liberal a school. P: Fuller? M: Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California where Jack Balswick was teaching. P: Was somehow the back of your mind having been influenced at Yale Divinity School with the remnants of the social gospel, could this have been a handbook for executing the social gospel? Is that stretching it too far? M: Stretching it a bit, I think of Rauchen Bush = s pioneering work called the social gospel. My area was more of seeking to understand what the sit uation is. Unless you understand it or have some modicum of understanding, you = re not going to be able to be effective in trying to do something about it. P: The situation meaning the different social problems of American life. M: The social problem itself, yeah. P: On balance, are you still proud of that book and feel good about it basically? M: I feel that I did the best that I could. I took much longer with my chapters than Jack did with his. He = s a fast writer and he could just wheel them right off. I don = t think his analysis was in the depth and sophistication that I would like. My own I think the chapters were honed, they were polished, they were cut down from the previous experience in Social Problems in the United States

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SRC -10 Morland, page 193 so I liked those all right. If I used that book, I woul d have to Xerox the part that I wrote, but not put in the part that he did if you = re doing it in a liberal arts college. P: You wrote many articles and you did lots of other studies, sometimes reports, they were secondary material you examined and put together in wa ys that led to some kind of adaptation in implementing social politics , particularly with respect to race and particularly with the Southern Regional Council, you published several things with them and elsewhere. Among those articles and those reports, what are ones that we should know about? The more important ones that you think, perhaps your prouder stuff or have seen had the most impact? M: It = s hard to know about impact because the Souther n Regional Council did distribute what we had done. I did find some of my students from now and then said I saw in the book shop your report. P: Meaning the Southern Regional Council report? M: Yes, the Southern Regional Council report, and I didn = t know that you were involved in that kind of thing. But I tried to stay strictly with objec tivities, never an all or nothing. There are some arguments, can you be objective. Well you can strive toward objectivity, you never reach it. As a chemistry major and as one who studied physics and other things, if you give a series of scientists x-rays to interpret, they don = t always come up with the same answer. Even M.D. = s have different approaches to... P: And cardiologists listen to hearts. M: Yes, you = re right, and cardiologists as well. P: Here = s an interesting aside. At the medical college in Virginia at one time they found that two cardiology residents were hearing impaired and something drastic had to be done.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 194 M: Let me tell you about one of the studies that I thought was real neat. The Southern Regional Council asked me to go to Texas and to find out how San Antonio and Galveston and Corpus Christi had desegregated their lunch counters. P: What year was that? Do you remember? M: 1961 or 1962. It was before the 1964 [Civil Rights] Act. P: But probably after the sit-ins in Greensboro? M: Yes, it was after the sit-ins at Greensboro. But what I found out that each of these cities had done that the managers who were in charge of the lunc h counters got in touch with managers who were in charge of other lunch counters. They said look, we are humiliating Blacks by letting them have food, by handing it over to them. They couldn = t sit down which was very, very inconvenient, they had to take the food out. Why don = t we get rid of this and have equal treatment, but the only way we can do it is to be unanimous and to do it at exactly the same time. I found that some people were really upset about the desegregation of the l unch counters, but they had nowhere else to go if they were in San Antonio or Galveston or Corpus Christi. P: Where did the sensitivity among the managers of the lunch counter come from? Did it occur elsewhere in the country? Lunch counters in Ri chmond and other cities I knew of, the managers were the last ones to suggest that they were hum iliating Blacks. What do you think the sensibility came from? M: I was puzzled by that and I did not have an answer. In a way, it was a practical response to a difficult situation. They wanted to keep all of their patrons, but they had the feeling that more and more and more, the pressure was going to come to desegregate and they should do it in their own time and in their own way. I might say I visited se veral of the lunch counters in each of those three cities. I talked to the managers, I talked to the ones who were preparing the food and handing it

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SRC -10 Morland, page 195 out, I talked to the customers who were taking thei r food their. I was in these cities that had wonderful Mexican-Spanish food, but I went only to lunch counters. This was about a two week study, and it was written up and pretty widely distribut ed. That is, if you follow what these Texas cities had done, you can proceed and be successful in it. How successful they were, I don = t know. I don = t know what came of that. P: Were there other studies you did that were report ed in journal articles or SRC or other places that you thought were particularly important? M: There was the one that you participated in. P: The Moribund Prince Edward story? M: No, it was the question that was asked of school superintendents mainly, but also school principals. You and I and about six others, George Hillary I remember was one of those... P: Was he at the University of Kentucky then? M: Yes, he was at the University of Kentucky then, at that point, yes. P: He went to Virginia Tech later. M: He did, but he was the only one that had s ense enough or nerve enough to get it recorded on tape. The rest of us talked and took notes. I went to Birmingham being from Alabama, I went to the superintendent of schools who was my old elementar y school principal and I got a very unfavorable response from him in terms of desegregation. T he question, as I recall, that we asked was we were operating under the B 1964 had not been passed and our findings when I looked at that summary, I think in Title Four of the 1964 [Civil Right s] Act, our findings are implicitly contained. I think they were used B I could never find explicitly whet her the congressional people used that or not. But the question was you = re going to be faced with desegregation because of the 1954 decision and what kind of help can the federal gov ernment give you? Who would be of all the

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SRC -10 Morland, page 196 agencies the ones in the federal government that w ould do the most for you. Generally speaking, they said the U.S. Office of Education. That was the broad answer. Some of them didn = t want the federal government to do anything about it but they realized that they were going to need help. I think out of that, Title Ten did grow for the Comm unity Relations Service that people could come in who knew something about race, race differences, have depths of knowledge, and could prove to be consultants. P: Did the feds in the end do something in some of those districts or other districts to implement... In other words, was there a pr ogram that followed this? M: No, there was not a program, but there was a report that went to the Southern Regional Council and then to Congress, the representativ es that they could get to. I don = t think John Lewis was one of the persons in the Congress at that time, I = m pretty sure he was not. But there was some, maybe John Coniers , I = m not sure if Charles Rangel , who could look at this and see this as an opening and a way to implement desegregation. P: So you don = t know of any school districts that asked for consultants to help them make the new move toward desegregation as a result? M: Under the Community Relations Service Act, yes, there were calls for help. P: So this study must have been an encouraging note for people who were working with that. M: I think so. I found the contrast between my old principal who was superintendent of the Birmingham schools was scared to death of segr egation, and the superintendent of the Jefferson County schools of which Birmingham B I think Virginia is one of the two maybe states where a city is not in a county, but in the others, for example in Birmingham, Jefferson County includes Birmingham, but each has a set of schools and each has a separate superintendent.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 197 P: You remarked to me that the report I sent to you from Richmond was a little more recalcitrant than some of the deep south counties. Was that true? Their reluctance to accept help from the feds was particularly... M: I = m not sure where specifically those... They would come from Theodore Wright who was the principal of my elementary school. He wouldn = t talk to anybody else. He didn = t anybody talking to him about desegregation, but since he knew me and has a child in his old school, he let me come in. We were only tangentially able to get in wi th that, it was really a kind of reunion of the two of us and we talked about Barker School where he was the principal. P: During the course of your professional work you knew lots of behavioral scientists B social psychologists, anthropologists, sociologists, polit ical scientists, a host of others, psychiatrists B and lots of people who did applied research. Could I ask you to make a comment about several of them that I think you had some contact with. Can I call you the names of a few and you tell me what you thought of their work and so on? One that worked with you in the Delaware case, Jerome Bruner ? M: Jerome Bruner was from NYU. He was in the field of education. He was the chair of my brother = s dissertation group at NYU so I had gotten to know him indirectly and directly in this case. He testified and testified very powerfully. P: He was an expert on race. M: He was an expert on education and how change could come about in education. P: How about Robert Kohls , I think he was a psychiatrist, was he not? M: Robert Kohls was an M.D. and an psychiatrist B well he would have to be if he were a psychiatrist. P: A social psychiatrist. What did you think of his work?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 198 M: I think very highly of it. I thought he probabl y stretched it out too much because he had children of crisis, children in political system. He, at the ti me I did the study for the Southern Regional Council and the B = nai B = rith organization, he did [End of Tape 8, side A] interviews of children who had gone to desegregated schools, particularly Black ch ildren and found out how they were, so he and I did somewhat parallel studies and interestingly, we were on the program in New York at the OrthoPsychiatry. We were on the same panel there. P: So you got to know him pretty well. M: I got to know him pretty well yes, and thought very highly of him. I don = t nkow how he managed to turn out so many excellent books. I was involved more in teaching as a liberal arts teacher in a liberal arts college. I liked the classroom, I lik ed the give and take with my students, but I don = t think he did much actual teaching. He did mainly research and writing which have added tremendously to our understanding. P: He contributed mightily to t he understanding of poverty cultures. M: He did as well, yes. P: You = ve spoken about Kenneth Clark and your association with him. Did you leave anything out about his work and his personality and so on that we might ought to know about? Because he was a remarkable influence. M: Oh he was a great influence. It was his study with his wife Mamie Clark that led me to try to get in there. I felt that dolls with the only differenc e being changing color would not be as effective a tool as photographs of real people. I had difficulty in developing the instrument, but I got a $500 grant from the U.S. Office of Education. We spent four hours at Randolph-Macon Women = s College with a professional photographer and with at leas t four cases of soda pop and cookies and other things to keep these children alert and happy. I had Black students in and they brought in adult

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SRC -10 Morland, page 199 Blacks and Black children, and then my students could get from the Randolph-Macon nursery school children. We had to get parental permissi on, had to get signed permission from everyone of the models in those, but I thought that would be a more accurate portrayal of actual people than would the dolls, so I wanted to see how it worked. P: Did you speak Kenneth Clark ever about the ca se for photographs over against dolls? Did you all discuss... M: We were at Michigan State on the same program when I was with him at some length of time. I had known him in the Delaware case. He had started with dolls. He had been successful in getting people to realize that the social structur e was hurting Blacks and Whites as well, not being able to accept across racial lines people as people. He was ready for any kind of variation in method, particularly if it lent support to his findings which my findings did. P: I understand that you also knew John Hope Franklin the historian. Did you know him? M: Yes. P: Tell me about him and his work and your association with him. M: I got to know him down at Chapel Hill. He wa s over in Durham at a school there which was for Blacks, I forget the name of it, it = s been changed now, it = s part of the North Carolina university system. I can remember how thorough he was, w hat a polished speaker he was. We discussed these matter off and on, particularly if we got different groups together. Edgar Thompson at Duke University brought us together in one meeting. I can remember those people who were involved as I was involved in race relations. Howard Odum at the University of North Carolina did this massive work of the southern regions and he was very s upportive of the kind of research I was doing and very supportive with Edgar Thompson of developing knowledge about the South as a region. As a matter of fact, Edgar Thompson said I should call myself a A southernist @ so I could know about

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SRC -10 Morland, page 200 the region, but I didn = t go in that direction. Now, John S helton Reed did. He was the one that fulfilled the dreams and the hopes of Edgar Thompson and Howard Odum. P: He was at UNC? M: Yes. He was at the University of North Carolina, outstanding person. He was the one that founded Southern Cultures and interviewed my wife Margaret and me about our study of the southern town in South Carolina, mill village. P: You also knew Alfred McClung Lee? M: Yes. P: Tell me about his work. He was well known. M: He was well known. He did a study of the Detr oit riot and I remember when I went to teach at the Chinese University of Hong Kong, I took his book and I wrote him and said the one book I = m taking that I = ll have time to read is the one that he had just turned out and he was very pleased. After the 1954 decision and the work that was left to do because in the 1955 decision the A move with all deliberate speed @ did not clarify things for us very much. He wanted a group of social scientists to work with the NAACP in hastening des egregation. I wrote him that the NAACP really did not have the kind of reputation in t he South that I thought would be helpful. P: To the kind of work you were doing. M: Yes. P: It would be helpful as an advocate in other respects. M: Yes. Well, maybe. I = m not so sure it would be in the South. The group that I chose to work with was the Southern Regional Council. I was on their board and then we formed in Richmond the Virginia chapter, and then the one in Lynchburg which we got into so much difficulty or trouble, we = ve talked about that. Otto Klineberg is one I got to know and I remember before we went into

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SRC -10 Morland, page 201 the court session the next day, we stayed up almost all night at the Dupont Hotel in Wilmington working out strategy, what would each of us say. I remember Otto Klineberg did excellent work in the area of intelligence, and that = s how I knew him from the literature. They said we don = t need to get into that do we? And I said we certainly do. You put Otto Klineberg in there to try to show that there is no difference in intelligence related to race. There are individual differences, but there = s not a categorical difference. P: Who said that you didn = t need to get into it in the case? M: The one who was chairing that group. P: Do you remember who that was? M: I think it was Jack Greenberg. He was the one that had brought together the social scientists. P: So the experts helped fashion what t he content of the testimony ought to be. M: Oh yes. P: You guys were very forceful. M: We almost rehearsed the sort of the thing we w ould do. We did not go in there cold. We went in there so that we wouldn = t duplicate each other. P: We have a famous social psychologist who was born and raised in Richmond, he also went to the same high school I went to, and I think you know hi m well, Tom Pettigrew. What did you think of Tom Pettigrew = s career and his work? M: I liked what he did. His book on Separate or Together was a plea against Black Power, against separation. He said we = ve gone that route and let = s not continue with it. P: His book The Profile of a Negro American , is that the principle one? M: That was his principle book in that, yeah. P: He was Harvard trained and was in Harvard for m any years. Did you ever collaborate with him?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 202 M: We did not collaborate, but he reviewed Race, Color, and the Young Child very favorably. We had trouble getting that book published. Jack Balswi ck was the lead, he was the one who got the contract, and interestingly he said Ken, we haven = t talked about who = s name goes first on this. I told him that B this was with John Williams actually, John Williams and I worked together on various kinds of research. We published articles, but we never did publish a book that we should = ve published. It was one on racial prejudice... I guess I worked with... I = m getting confused here. It was Frank Westy of Indiana University who wanted to do a joint book on racial prejudice with me, but I got involved with John Williams at Wake Forest and we moved ahead on the issue. We had several meetings B he came up here, we went down there B deciding how the book would be organized and we got sample chapters and we sent them in a way which was called over the transend , that is we would just send it without any support from anybody to commercial publishers. They thought it was too intellectually oriented to be widely used. We then started sending it to university presses and the first one was University of North Carolina which was a very reputable press, and it was Tom Pettigrew who got that book published. He, unlike the reviewers of the commercial publishers, said this is a must book. P: You mean he wrote you a letter of support or something? M: He wrote a letter of support to the Universi ty of North Carolina Press. He and a social psychologist, I forget what his name is, it = s there on the cover of the book, but he was really responsible for us getting that book published. P: You had a lot of association with Michigan St ate University, and two of your collaborators there were Wilbur Brookover and Robert Green . Tell me about their work and your association with them.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 203 M: I was invited to go to this tenth anniversary of the 1954 decision and this was held at Michigan State. Wilbur Brookover was the one that gather ed the group together. P: He knew about you? M: Yes. He knew about me from the literatur e so I was invited. Kenneth Clark gave the major address in our group, and then I responded with about a ten minute commentary. P: What year was that, can you remember? M: 1963. P: So you went to that meeting and you met Bob Green there too? M: I met Bob Green , and they were very interested in knowing... He was in the Department of Urban Studies at that time, Bob Green was. There were several others that I got to know up there in sociology. Edmund Schuler , for example, very capable, very helpful person. He did not actually go to Prince Edward, but Robert Green went down and set up an office and got a sizeable grant. I found that if you were from a big university like Michigan State, and you had the personnel, you could get grants. It was exceedingly difficult, say as a lone researcher in a small, liberal arts college to obtain a grant, and they were never very sizeable. Bob Green was able to, with Wilbur Brookover = s help. They knew people in the Department of Education and they would write them and say what should we present in order to get a grant? What = s hot now? How can we phrase this? And they got a sizeable grant and went down. P: Among his other studies was this study of bef ore and after the free school. He gave a battery of tests to see if even IQ scores were sensitive to eight or nine months of before and after from a noschool state to eight months of stimul us from a thrown-together-quickly-school.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 204 M: But those children that stayed out of school for four years were found never to be able to make up the difference by just... They were over age fo r the grades, for example, that was one awkward thing. P: That was Green = s findings, that was among his findings? M: Yes, and among the ones that I B I did a lot of interviewing there too. P: In connection with his studies? M: Oh yes, under his direction. P: Who did you interview? Children or adults? M: Mainly adults. I talked a lot to Francis Griffin whom we = ve mentioned before. I talked primarily to other Blacks. I didn = t get into the White community of B I didn = t get to know Barry Wall for example, and I wanted to know who he was. P: Your objective of the interviewing there was to what? Get background for... M: Get background to find out what these adults teacher = s particularly thought was happening to the children. Robert Green did a lot of testing with his staff and the conclusion was that they were severely hurt by this. One thing that has bothered me a bit in reviewing the cost of segregation and the cost of closing schools B and Prince Edward County was the only one so far as I know that closed them B they were demanded, I think Byrd demanded they be closed in a couple of other places, but they quickly reorganized and opened them again. I = d have to look at that. P: Several districts were closed or their select ed schools were closed toward desegregation, but they were brief, no longer than a semester I think. M: Right. At any rate, we praised this video on A Eyes on the Prize @ of the freedom busses that went through and tested segregation at the bus stations and they were horribly treated. A bus was

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SRC -10 Morland, page 205 burned in Anniston, Alabama, and when they got into Montgomery, the police pulled away and they just brutally beat those people, particu larly the Whites who were on the bus. P: You = re talking about the conditions that were in Alabama at the time the Prince Edward schools were closed and so forth. Your connection with the Prince Edward idea? M: Not so much as I = m referring to the 1964 Civil Rights Act which said you cannot legally segregate restaurants or busses or anything open to the public, y ou may not do that. So they were testing it and they got a lot of attention. On the other hand, the ones that were severely hurt and who carried the burden were the children of Prince Ed ward County, and I think that story needs to be told. I think if anybody doubts the value of early education, particularly in public schools, all they have to do is to read the reports of Robert Green and his colleagues. P: And the Moribund report of Ken Morland. M: [Laugh] Thank you. P: In the summers, often times you didn = t teach at Randolph-Macon in the summers and you took visiting professorships. You = d already told us about the NYU camps up in New York. What other summer and sabbatical and what have you visits did you make to other campuses that stand out in your mind? M: The NYU visit was for twelve successive summers. This was in Bear Mountain Park and this is just above New York City, not far from the Hudson River. I was invited by the chair of the Department of Physical Health, Physical Activity and Recreat ion. They had graduate students working on their doctorates to come. P: This was at New York? M: This was at New York University, yes, New York University Camp. There were probably 200 of us there, 200 students and a staff of maybe six or ei ght. I taught courses in social anthropology and

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SRC -10 Morland, page 206 educational psychology and in sociology. They wanted the Phys. Ed. Health and Recreation students to get some of the flavor of liber al arts while they were there. I didn = t know anything about the major fields, but we came to know best of all Blacks from the South and I = m so grateful that our three girls who really enjoyed those summers got to know Blacks as genuine people who helped to teach them to swim and who were right as part of the total makeup of that camp. P: You told us something about this, about the primitive nature of the camp. M: Yes. That was tough for Mar garet with little ones, definitely. P: But now, you went to other campuses from ti me to time. What other campuses did you find interesting? M: Summer at the University of Georgia. I was a sked to go there and teach a course in criminology. I had not had criminology before, but I got the books out and I worked. I think it was absolutely the hardest summer we = ve ever had, but Margaret and the ch ildren were able to go to a beautiful, long swimming pool inside. So we survived that. I got to know people down there with whom I worked later on the Social Problems text. This was the opening there. P: Where else did you go? M: I went to the University of North Carolina B Chapel Hill and I taught one course in the anthropology department and one course in the sociology department and used my own books and research primarily to do that. P: Were they on the topic of race mostly? M: Yes. P: Any other highlights in those travels to other universities? Your list, I think if I = m correct, close to a dozen visiting professorships of some sort.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 207 M: I was a visiting professor primarily as a repres entative of the American An thropological Association. They had me make rounds in colleges that did not have anthropology departments. P: To assess curriculum there? M: Just to get acquainted and to give my reactions and opinions. P: How about lectures to introduce them to anthropology ? M: Yes, I have gave a series of lectures, series of workshops, and a series of conferences. We had the equal educational opportunity grants that I wa s invited to participate in. We had one in Lynchburg College, we had one at Stetson University in Florida. We had them at Michigan State University. I also went to universities in Indiana, Indiana University. This was for a equal opportunities grant that the people had had and they invi ted as a visiting lecturer to participate in the desegregation area. At Mississippi, I spent a su mmer at Old Miss. As a matter of fact, I was down there during the Kofo time, the time that those three workers were murdered in Philadelphia. I was right outside of Philadelphia when that happened. The Mississippians were appalled at the violence that was committed. They said we don = t believe in what these people from outside are doing, but we certainly don = t approve of having them murdered the way they were. P: Speaking of the Anthropological Association, you took on assignments from them and I know you were at one time president of the Virgin ia Social Science Association, weren = t you? M: Yes. This brought together sociology and anthropology and political science and maybe one other. P: History? M: History, yeah. P: And you were the president of the statewide... M: Yes. P: Do you remember the year?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 208 M: I sort of worked my way up. The presidency lasted two years and you were responsible for the annual meeting which was about all that we did. We did correspond during the year, but the major thing was to get to know a little about the other disciplines. That was an advantage, to hear from political scientists and historians and t hose in other comparable areas. I don = t think economics was ever a part of that. P: It is now, I think, because I think they give awards to each of those disciplines. M: Okay, that = s the way it should be. P: I think I noticed that there was an economist at one time if not... M: I also helped to found and to develop the Virgin ia Conference of the American Association of University Professors and I became president of t hat. Again, we would bring colleges together at some focal point, often it was Richmond, sometimes Williamsburg, once Lynchburg, and Charlottesville several times. We would talk about academic freedom and faculty participation in making rules and the like. P: Did you hold and office with the American Anthropological Association? M: I did at the national level. I was c hair of the membership department at one point. P: Did you do other things for them, pick up assignments? M: I did some troubleshooting once in a place in Oregon. One other AU person, and I went out to see... There was a violation of academic freedom. P: This was the AAUP, this was not for the American Anthropological Association, is it? M: No, this is not for Anthropological, it = s for the AAUP. I did travel to many trouble spots. I remember especially the one in Oregon. T he board of a community college was headed by a person who was in charge of a hardware store and he said he could fire any hardware store he wanted to and we could do the same thing for the faculty that we didn = t approve of. We got the

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SRC -10 Morland, page 209 faculty together with the board and we tried to te ll them that being on the faculty and dealing with disciplines particularly that might have some c ontroversy in them was very different from a business where you would seek to make a profit, where you would provide services and the like. But teaching was not in that same category. Fort unately, of the three probl em-shootings that I did, we were able in each case, the AAUP was (American Association of University Professors) to bring about a reconciliation, to bring about an understanding. Those cases are not the ones that are written up in the AAUP bulletin. P: How about the Southern Sociological Society and the American Sociological Association. Were you active in those? M: Yes, I was active in those. One of the pr oblems I faced was that whereas I got my degree at the University of North Carolina in the department of sociology and anthropology, I took courses in both and my chief advisor was John Gillin who wa s the one who determined that I would go into the field and do a participant observation study. On ce these disciplines began to separate, that was exceedingly hard to do. You had to be one or t he other. I always felt that social anthropology or cultural anthropology was virtua lly the equivalent of sociology. P: This was about the time they were erecti ng a fence between the disciplines of anthropology and sociology? M: That = s right. P: But when you started, this didn = t exist right? M: It did not exist. There was cooperation. Y ou took from faculties in both areas and you took courses that would now be called strictly ant hropology and courses would now be called pretty strictly sociology.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 210 P: I read somewhere recently about a speech by Howard Odum about race relations. I think it was at the Southern Sociological Society, I assume it was in the 1950s, in which the segregationists appropriated and used it in their defense of segregation that he gave a speech in such a fashion that it was grist for their mill. Are you acquainted with that speech? M: No, I = m not. Of course, Howard Odum himself was adamantly opposed to any kind of racial separation or racial prejudice. He was not as much an activist as some of the others. Guy Johnson for example, under whom I studied at Chapel Hill University of North Carolina became the president of the Southern Regional Council for several years, so he had the practical side as well as the academic side. Odum never got into the activity area, he stayed with the research. P: I think maybe if I recall correctly he was sayi ng something about the difficulty of integrating and they took that to mean it shouldn = t happen. M: I think that could well be because there was difficu lty. People had to overcome a great deal of their background for this to happen. P: Through the years, you had been to China and y ou had kept links with some of your former students and others there, and through the years have you kept links with some of your Chinese friends? I do know you = ve told us about the book that you = re working on with the essays from your former students, but through those years, how would you characterize your continuing links with your Chinese friend and colleagues? M: Those links were severed totally when the People = s Republic of China under the communists was founded. The last person from the Yale in Chi na Association, a very kind gentle, wonderful man, was accused of being an American spy and they f ound a radio set in his home and they found old artifacts that one of the American teacher s had bought and was intended to take back but somehow had not, and they claimed he was stealing t he precious artifacts of old China and they

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SRC -10 Morland, page 211 put him under house arrest, threatened him, took hi m to the newest building on the campus which had just been opened, and I was executive secretary of Yale in China when we raised money for that building and for other buildings. He was for three hours or four hours, he was condemned by others. They had to speak, if they didn = t speak against him, they would get into great difficulty, and three or four of his close Chinese colleagues would not say the words that the communists wanted them to say and as a result, they suffe red terribly. Some of these essays that I = ve gotten tell about the suffering. P: What year did you renew your relati onship with some of these former students? M: After Mao = s death, the situation gradually changed. Deng Xiao-ping was more open to a relationship [with] America and American = s once more could go into China. When I was in Hong Kong under the British rule in 1966, 1967, ther e could be absolutely no communication with Chinese mainland. Nothing could be bought that had any origin in China, even the thread in a garment for example. You had a certification that none of the materials and whatever objects we were buying were made in what we call Red China. P: After your retirement in the 1990s, you conti nued to do things, lots of activities. Among them, I heard that you were involved in a consultation on interracial adoption in Memphis, putting to work your knowledge based on this question. Was that about 1993? M: Yes, it was. A little bit more back, in the opening of our renewal of acquaintance with former students, they took the lead. They found out w here we were and they began to write us. Several of them began to visit this country and I had five or six of my former students who came to see us and we invited them B they stayed with us B I invited them to speak to my classes at RandolphMacon. At first when I said I want you to speak, they said you know we were not allowed to use our English for twenty-five years so it might be a little rusty. We = ve worked on it since then, but...

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SRC -10 Morland, page 212 P: I was also thinking of other projects y ou had. I understand you went to Memphis and were involved in an interracial adoption consultation of some sort. Tell us about that. M: I received a call from a lawyer who asked if I would be a witness in an interracial adoption case. The Black social workers had gotten the state of Tennessee to pass an ordinance or a law which prevented any child with any African ancestry to be adopted by a White family. They had a case challenging that because a White couple had been given an interracial child at birth because the mother, who was White, could not keep it. The child had grown up and was now four or five years old and they had fallen in love with the child, the child loved them. They were foster parents, and they wanted to change the status and make this o fficially their child, but the state of Tennessee said they could not. So I was asked to come and participate in that trial. P: What did you say? M: I said if you can get Rita Simon who = s at American University, she has done a twenty year longitudinal study of the adoption of children across racial lines and she is the expert. They said we have her coming, but we need you too. So the tw o of us were expert witnesses for the plaintiffs and the state of Tennessee was the defendant. P: How did the case come out? M: I stayed on that stand for forty-five minutes and got to know the judge, Judge McCray very well. He kept looking at my record and he said you know, Dr. Morland I wish we could have had you when we were desegregating our schools in Memphis. He asked me if I had known, if I was acquainted with a book by Mark Twain in which two children had gotten crossed at birth and one was brought up as a slave, who was actually a White child, and the other was brought up in the family of the owners of the slaves. When they f ound out this difference, they tried to put these two

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SRC -10 Morland, page 213 youngsters who were now teenagers back to where they belonged and it was a really, in a way hilarious situation, but also a ridicul ous situation in showing the difference. P: What did the judge determine? M: The judge determined that the law was illegal, th is was in a federal appeals court. He said you cannot prevent people from adopting children of ot her races, particularly across Black and White lines. He cited Rita Simon and then I talked a great deal about the cu lture that all of us were in. I guess I made a faux pas because I was on the st and and the defendants, the state of Tennessee, the attorney general, asked me should Katie (this little child who was interracial) be taught about the background and growth of Blacks in America? My a ttorney said I object. I said but I think I can answer that, and that was not a good thing to do with your attorney. Anyhow, the judge told me and I said of course they should teach her about that aspect of American history, all children should be taught it. But Katie must be taught about how our democracy was built and must be taught the lives and times of Thomas Jeffe rson and George Washington and John Adams and the struggle that Americans had had to have a free, open society. P: I think there = s another activity which you = ve had since you = ve retired and that is the involvement with the Martin Luther King, Jr. Cent er for Human Rights, is that true? M: Yes. P: What do you do with them? What = s your involvement there? M: Each community in the state of Virginia was a sked to have some kind of memorial for him. Some named avenues, some had statuary, but we wanted a more vital kind of memorial. So at the public library, the state of Virginia, commonwealth of Virg inia, set up the situation in which we could say this is what we want to do and they could approve it. Then there were six people who could be

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SRC -10 Morland, page 214 elected to the board. I was chosen to be on the board and we did several exceedingly interesting things. P: For Virginia only? M: No, for Lynchburg, Virginia. P: So there = s these boards all over the place? M: Yes. P: But their connected with the center in Atlanta somehow? M: I think we reach out to that center, but wher e they have named streets or highways. For example in Lynchburg, the Blacks wanted Fifth Street, whic h has Black businesses largely. It also has an automotive center that sells cars, owned by Whit es. They wanted to name that the Martin Luther King memorial street. [End of Tape 8, side B] P: I = m here again with Ken Morland and today is March 22. Another beautiful, but very cool day. Ken, I thought we = d revisit some of the origins of the Virginia Council on Human Relations. You were back in Virginia in the very early 1950s at William and Mary, and then later Randolph-Macon. When was your first contact with the Southern Regional Council? M: It came when I was an undergraduate at Birmingham Southern College. I was attracted by their statement of purpose. The Sout hern Regional Council said the racial issue in the South should be dealt with by southerners. Any help would be welc ome, but it should be concentrated here. I was the president of the YMCA at Birmingham Sout hern and we brought in different speakers, and I brought in the head of the SRC at the time, Sout hern Regional Council, to speak to the student body. P: Who was that?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 215 M: I do not remember his name now, I would have to look that up. I hadn = t thought of this until you asked the question. Then, I continued my association when I went to graduate school after finishing Birmingham Southern. I received t heir publications and I certainly did my own correspondence with them. P: So your first contact was in the 1930s? M: That = s right, the late 1930s. I finished Birmingham Southern in 1938. I stayed an extra half year because I entered mid term and I had one more year of basketball, varsity basketball, so I stayed with it. P: You went to graduate school and you went to China. You came home and you ended up in graduate school again in North Carolina. Then you moved to William and Mary. During that time, had you had any more contact with SRC? During that period after graduate school at Yale? M: What I went into before I went to graduate school , I was told by my oldest brother that I could not just keep going to get education because I had a younger brother and a young sister that needed to go to college. There were six of us childr en and my mother died in childbirth with my baby sister. So we grew up pretty much without adult supervision. My father was a general practitioner, hated being in the office. He was out with patients in their homes and in the country side. My wonderful, wonderful grandmother di d her best, but with six children under the age of thirteen, she had her hands full. So I agreed and I was off in a position at Webb School in Tennessee, and I went to Webb School as a teacher of mathematics, as director of the dormitory and being in charge of all sports. P: There did you stay in contact with Southern Regional Council M: Yes. P: You were active in race relations to some extent?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 216 M: I was active and communicated with them during that time. P: So when you ended up in Virginia, William and Mary and so on, you had still kept up your contact and you knew people there, the staff and others. Was there a Virginia Council on Human Relations when you came to William and Mary? M: No. P: That didn = t exist, and that was 1950? M: 1949. P: Tell me how the Virginia Council on Human Relations came about. M: There were a number of us who were asso ciated with the Southern Regional Council, and in Atlanta was the home of the SRC. They said it = s time to establish state councils on human relations, you can = t do everything just from Atlanta. P: Was that when you were in Virginia or before? M: When I was in Virginia. So a number of us got together. The major meeting place was Union University in Richmond. P: The people who were interested assembled at Virginia Union on Lumbar Street in Richmond. M: That = s right. P: And had your first meeting t here. Do you remember the date? M: I don = t remember the exact date, no. P: What year do you think it was? M: I think it must have been 1950 to 1951, possibly 1952, but it was before I came to RandolphMacon. P: Do you remember some of the people at that meeting? You = ve talked a little bit about that meeting.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 217 M: Dean Henderson of Union was there, Hubert Beckworth from northern Virginia was there. I wish I could go back and reconstruct... Frank Daniel who was an M.D. in Charlottesville was there. P: How about Ellison ? M: John Ellison was a kind of defacto member. Tom Henderson , the dean, really chaired things. P: About how many people were there? M: I = d say about twelve, maybe fifteen. P: And you were from different parts of the state? M: Different parts of the state. Not many from the west and the central part where Lynchburg is. We had a number from Charlottesville, northern Virginia. Tom Young was very important. He was editor or publisher of a newspaper in Norfolk. It was a newspaper for Blacks by Blacks, but anybody could read it. P: Was that the journal guy I think? M: Yeah, I think it was. P: Yes, I remember Tom Young = s... So there = s about a dozen and they did represent Tidewater a little bit and central Virginia, which Lynchburg in sync of... Richmond always think of themselves as central Virginia. Charlottesville was represented in northern Virginia, but Southside, Virginia you didn = t have anybody. M: No, we didn = t. P: Southside is known as the Black belt of Virginia and had more of the deep south. M: Harry Roberts was there, a sociologist at Virginia State. P: He was a founding father of it too. M: Yes he was.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 218 P: I knew him. What did you determine at that m eeting? Who sort of led the way? You were one of those who had a deep long term relationship with SRC. M: We talked about the situation in Virginia. What we could do to eliminate forced segregation. The object was to overcome the Plessy v. Ferguson decision that as long as things were equal, you could have separate facilities and that just fed segregation. They had on the books legal requirements that all public facilities, everything, schools, had to be segregated. P: The racial makeup of the group was about balanced? M: Yes, it was pretty well balanced. P: So there were White representation. M: Yes, yes. Hubert Beckworth would be one, Frank Daniels would certainly be one, Gordon Moss . P: Gordon Moss was there? M: Yes he was. P: So he was a founder also? M: Yes. He was among the early participant s, I forget who exactly were the founders. P: What kind of organizational steps did you ta ke before you left the campus? When you left the campus at Virginia Union that day at the meeting? M: I think that was the regular meeting place throughout the life of the Virginia Council on Human Relations. P: So you left as a Virginia Council and everybody agreed and it was organized in a concrete way. M: Yes. P: So you left it then and what tasks were distributed to be done by different people? Did you have to set up committees?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 219 M: Yes, we set up committees. [We had] a membership committee. We had to have money so we had [a] treasurer. We also had the delicate task of keeping communists out of the organization. There was a couple that wanted to becom e members, I remember very well. P: Do you remember their names? M: No, I don = t remember their names and it probably wouldn = t be well to use them, but we were told by the Southern Regional Council in Atlanta t hat they were bonafide communists and that we should not let them join. P: The American Communist Party you mean? M: Whatever that was, I never knew... P: I mean they weren = t foreign agents as opposed to there was of course American Communist Party at the time, there were about six members in the Richmond area that I was aware of. You don = t remember anything about these two people? M: Tom Henderson who was supposed to chair that meeting was conveniently away and I had to chair it. When we turned down their membership , they came and pleaded to the Virginia Council on Human Relations Central Committee, why are you not letting us join? P: Were they at that init ial meeting at Virginia Union? M: They were at a meeting that occurred later. P: So once they heard about the Virginia Council, then they tried to get onboard. M: That = s correct. P: And this was in the 1950s, this was in the wake of communism scare. M: That = s correct. P: Senator McCarthy. M: The McCarthy days were very scary , particularly for college professors.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 220 P: So people didn = t make a lot of distinction between Am erican communists who might be sincere and maybe misguided by some opinion, and foreign agent s who were a direct threat to our country, did they? M: I don = t think they necessarily... I don = t know about foreign agents, but these were Virginians. The reason we gave, we couldn = t say we know you = re communist so you can = t come. You can = t do that. You get into terrible trouble if you try to label somebody even though the head of the Southern Regional Council who was Harold Fleming at the time had told us not to let them join. P: And he didn = t make a distinction between people with known dangerous records and people of just communist conviction that were... M: Communism was a totalitarian kind of movement. It would control everything if it moved into a country as they did China, as they did in the Soviet Union. P: So the assumption about this was that these people were tied to the Soviet Union in some way and they would be advocates of totalitarianism. M: Without question. P: You think they advocated it. M: That = s what they did. On the surface, they would appear to be 100 percent Americans and all that, but it was one of the most painful m eetings I have ever been in because we couldn = t shoot straight with them without getting into great troubl e. We just said you were too disruptive at a particular meeting. And they said well we = ll never be disruptive again. We said let = s see over time. P: Was it a man and a woman? M: Yes, husband and wife. P: Was one of them a social worker perhaps? Do you remember/

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SRC -10 Morland, page 221 M: I = m not sure what they did. P: I had some candidates in mind for who they might have been. So this was in a subsequent meeting, and then you began to have continuous meetings. M: Yes. P: And the group, the founding group became sort of a central committee on the board or what have you. M: Again, we began to realize that you can = t be effective statewide without having local chapters of the Virginia Council on Human Relations. I thin k I mentioned earlier that Belle Boone Beard (who taught sociology at Sweet Briar) and I, and there were three Blacks, two of them were wives of physicians, one of them was a funeral director, w ho met at the Lodge where we were last night and organized the Lynchburg chapter of the Virginia Council on Human Relations. P: Do you remember the year of that or how long it was after the Virginia Council founding? M: It was after of course I had come to Randolph-Macon. P: So it was after 1953. M: After 1953, but not very long after, maybe 1954, 1955. One of the reasons for being overly cautious in regard to bonafide communists is that we were accused not of being integrationists but of being communist, and if they could seize on anybody, they would have weakened us terribly. P: So in a sense, it was a political strategy. M: Exactly a political strategy. P: And it was an even more intense environment because of the HUA Act, the House of Un-American Activities and the out-croppings from that. M: That = s right.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 222 P: So here you were trying to do some good, make some gain in desegregation and get away from Plessy v. Ferguson and you couldn = t afford to have untoward elements show up in it and wreck your progress. Is that the way people reasoned? M: Exactly. That = s well stated, that = s exactly the way we were feeling. But everybody in the Virginia Council in Richmond at that time felt very uneasy. I could just look around the table and we all felt awkward and we felt great difficult. P: You felt pain... M: Pain... P: Starting from trying to start an inclusiv e organization, a thought for inclusiveness, and being exclusive to do it. M: That = s correct. P: There was a sense of discomfort about that among these very democratic... M: And there was also discomfort of givi ng this couple the real reason. We couldn = t say the Southern Regional Council has identified you as bonafide communi sts so they must not be allowed to join an affiliate of the SRC. P: The other chapters, did you know much about when the Richmond-Pete rsburg chapter started? M: We began to branch out into norther Virg inia and Charlottesville and Lynchburg and Tidewater about the same time. P: Probably before 1955? M: Yes, it was before that. P: And before the 1954 Supreme Court school decision. M: Correct.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 223 P: That is kind of remarkable wasn = t it. Did you all anticipate any sympathetic decisions from Congress or from the White House or from the Supreme Court at the time? M: No, we were hopeful. P: You knew from your involvement, though, t hat there were cases on the line and you had already won a case, did you not, in Delaware? M: That = s correct. P: Did you see some writing on the wall? M: We couldn = t call it. We just did not know what the courts would do. But it was a social scientist = s, particularly Kenneth Clark = s, testimony that swayed that Supreme Court because they put him in a footnote as saying these children will be hurt and feel they are inferior and they = ll never be able to overcome this as long as there is separation by race with a hierarchical status assignment. P: It sounded like he deserved to be a wee bit more than a footnote, perhaps central in the text wouldn = t you say? M: I think so really, yes. P: But we know how legalese works. M: Yes. P: The Virginia Council then began to get a bigger membership and pull people in and you had a chapter in northern Virginia, you had one in Rich mond-Petersburg, you had one in Lynchburg. Did you have one in Tidewater? M: I = m not sure. Yes, there was one in Norfolk, yes. P: So there was four about this time? M: At least four, yes.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 224 P: And probably before the decision was made public and before the masterminds of Massive Resistance came on the scene. M: That = s right. P: After 1954, what did folks in the Virgin ia Council on Human Relations do? What of note? M: We hailed that decision. We thought it had been a major breakthrough. Could not believe that the court was unanimous in its 1954 decision saying you could not have laws that required segregation in any kind of public facility. P: Where did you guys turn to for your next steps then having gotten this certification that you were on the right track? M: We had monthly meetings. I know about t he Lynchburg chapter. I was chosen as the first president of the Lynchburg chapter of the Virginia Council. Beverly Cosby, who was at the Church of the Covenant at the Lodge where we were last night, was the second president and Virgil Wood who was a Black minister of Diamond Hill Baptist Church which is the most prominent church and which was the only place where we could have our annual banquet was the third president. P: Where is Diamond Hill Baptist Church? M: It = s in a Black section of the city just off 12th Street up east. It = s very near the Guggenheim Hospital which is now a nursing home of central heal th. By the way, our Martin Luther Kind Center for Human Rights that we talked about yesterday has its annual breakfast at Diamond Hill Baptist Church celebrating the birt hday of Martin Luther King. P: So you made different efforts in your chapt ers and so forth, and then the Virginia Council had its own agenda as well. You were on the board of the Virginia Council weren = t you? M: Yes. P: Were you ever president?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 225 M: Yes. P: You were. When were you president? M: I think around 1956, 1957. I was vice president before then. We had a presidential office for one year because all of us had regular eight hour (at leas t) jobs or if you were a college professor as you well know, it = s closer to a twenty hour day. P: When did you first have a staff person for the council? Do you remember the first time you had enough of a treasury? M: We had a full time director of the Virginia Council on Human Relations. I remember most of all Paul Reeling . P: You think he was the first one? M: He might well have been. P: Do you remember the earliest date that he would have been on board? M: It was before 1954, but I could look at my correspondence with him which I have not done. Happy Lee, Heslop Lee , was very prominent as... P: But he was in the 1960s. M: That = s correct. P: And I think there were one or two in between. M: That = s correct, yes. P: They were active and so on. As I recall, there was lots of interest and desire on especially younger people to go to the streets, at least in the 1960s. I don = t think it was so intense in the 1950s was it? Because there wasn = t a sense that you could get away with it in the 1950s. M: The latter part of the 1950s had demonstrations. One of the things we learned was that Whites had to be very careful with their involvement in any kind of demonstration because as Father

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SRC -10 Morland, page 226 Teeter , Jack Teeter B he was a minister of the Church of the Good Shepherd which was Black entirely... P: But he was White. M: He was White. People would say now if these Whites like Jack Teeter , Morland or anybody else would just stay out of there, the Bla cks would be happy with their status, but it = s the Whites that get in there and stir them up. So it was so mething the Blacks had to take leadership in and do themselves with Whites in the background more t han in the foreground. These were the kinds of discussions we had at the Virginia Council on Human Relations. P: There was increasing numbers of people involved in the Virginia Council on Human Relations? I myself attended a few as a visitor to annual meeti ngs of the board and I recall various individuals, Harvard Brown and a variety of others. There was a wo man lawyer from Danville, slips our mind, do you recall her? M: I remember her, but I can = t recall her name. P: How long did you stay deeply involved in the Virginia Council, the state and local? M: Until the 1964 and 1965 laws were passed. We decided that we = d reached our goal and weren = t going just to perpetuate an organization almost for t he sake of the organization. We were taunted by one member B and I think this is significant and probabl y typical of the local chapters of the Virginia Council B someone exasperated, stood up and said this group is nothing but a tea and cookie outfit. Bernice Hill who was five feet at most, who = s Black, who taught French at an integrated school in EC Glass stood up and said but where else can we have tea and cookies together? And you see if segregation was so complete then we couldn = t get to know each other. We had superb Blacks that I would never have had a chance meeting. Dr. Robert Johnson who trained Arthur Ashe and Althea Gibson and they w on Wimbledon. I got to know him well.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 227 P: He was in the Virginia Council? M: He was in the Lynchburg chapter of the Virginia Council. P: Oh he was? M: Definitely, he was a very strong supporter. Robert Wesley was another physician who was there. P: Black physician? M: Yes, black physician. P: From Lynchburg. M: That = s right. We got to know him, we got to k now teachers out at the Virginia College that had only Blacks. P: The Lynchburg chapter was vital and active up through say 1964? M: That = s right. P: And then people saw that the goal was largel y achieved and we had the Civil Rights Act and later the Voting Rights Act, so its need kind of diminished right? M: It did. P: Did people drop away at that point? M: No, we formally dissolved. P: The local chapter? M: The local chapter said there is no longer any thing that we can do to bring about the demise of forced segregation because it = s been done. P: What about the state office. Heslop Happy Lee was now during that period the state executive secretary or director and I don = t recall when they closed that office, it was on Carrie Street in Richmond and they had other programs, a number of other people associated with it. Do you know when that office was closed?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 228 M: I don = t know when it was closed, about the same time ours was. The Southern Regional Council in Atlanta moved to a recruitment of registration for Blacks particularly. P: Voter Registration Project? M: Yes, to vote. So they had changed... I = m not even sure whether the Southern Regional Council is still in existence. P: Oh yes, it is. It = s still very prominent in certain... They even did a history of the civil rights movement on audio for public radio. M: I had not heard that. P: Several dozens of sessions on radio, audio production. So they = re still prominent, but like you said, the mission changed and they = re different. M: Let me say this one thing. With the comi ng of forced desegregation, court-ordered desegregation and our dissolving of our group, one neighbor said to another neighbor where we lived that Ken Morland has certainly changed his ways and he isn = t as radical as he was. That neighbor across the street said Ken Morland hasn = t changed, you and the rest of us have had to change because of the work that was done by the Congress particularly. P: How did that make you feel? M: Oh it made me feel absolutely great, I was very pleased. P: So folks got the sensation of vindication, did they not? M: I think without question. Our task was done. P: The Richmond Council went on for many more y ears and did some activities right into the 1970s and so forth. I = m not sure about the other local councils, do you know? M: I don = t know, no, because we were not having direct contact with them as a rule. P: So you went off the board and the board disappeared after awhile for the state council.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 229 M: That = s right. P: I just want to ask you to comment on the work and efforts and personalities if you will of some of the people that were involved in the region and in the country during the Ci vil Rights Era that you might know. What do you remember about Will Campbell . M: I read his books. I thought his laid back openness, his unequivocal support of the equality of all people, his strong support for what the Souther n Regional Council was trying to do. I don = t know whether he ever had any direct involvement with the Southern Regional Counc il, but there was the Southern Churchman, I think that was t he name of the organization in Nashville. P: Jean Fairfax asked me to ask you about them, were you involved yourself in the Southern Churchman? M: I met with them and we were all on the same wa velength, but I was never a formal member. I think only ministers joined that group. P: How about James McBride Dabbs? You menti oned him before. Would you have anything to add about his contribution? M: His contribution was tremendous. We invited him to speak at Randolph-Macon and we had an overflow crowd. P: You told me. Was that the controversial meeting? M: No, the controversial meeting was conducted by the State Sovereignty people who did not want any integration whatsoever. P: When did Dabbs come to Randolph-Macon to get an overflow crowd? M: It was in the 1960s. P: So segregation was still in effect when he came? M: Not legally of course.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 230 P: It had been outlawed by the time he came? M: Yes, by the time Dabbs came. P: So it must have been after 1965. It wasn = t in the 1970s was it? M: It was right about the late 1960s, early 1970s. P: By this time, he was a popular speaker? M: Very. But he was such a genuine southern gent leman who wrote a powerful book. By the way, Brooks Hays wrote a book Southern Moderate Speaks and he was in Congress as I recall. Those people who = s credentials as southern gentlemen in suppor t of the southern way of life made it respectable. P: The Gordon Moss archetype? M: That = s right, Gordon Moss would certainly be there. P: The book that you thought was so influential, Dabb = s book, was called what? M: I think it was called a Southern Moderate Speaks , it was something of that. P: ________ of sorts? M: Yes. P: It wasn = t a fiction. M: No, it was not a fiction. It was straight out and out that the South is going to lose out in technological advance, in companies putting their m oney into new kinds of discoveries if we don = t get rid of this matter of forced segregation. P: He was active early in the 1960s? M: Yes. P: Did you know him? M: Yes, I knew him. I met him both in South Carolina and here.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 231 P: How about Leslie Dunbar of the Sout hern Regional Council. You knew him? M: Yes, I knew Leslie. I corresponded with him, but I also met him personally. I have a letter from him, he = s just retired, and I answered it. He = s now down at Chapel Hill in retirement, but it = s a nice long letter. He offered me, along with the B = nai B = rith organization, a Jewish organization, do to a pamphlet kind of study on token desegregation. The pamphlet = s called A Token Desegregation and Beyond @ . P: Many of us knew about that. M: He was very pleased with the product. It was very difficult to work all these things into a full time teaching job. P: Yes indeed. How about Frank Graham ? Do you remember [him]? M: I knew him only as president of the Univ ersity of North Carolina, but I really didn = t know him personally. I remember when he ran for senator and I thought he would be a shoe-in in North Carolina. He was defeated because again of this labeling of being favorable to communists and that sort of thing and that did him in. P: He wasn = t very radical at all was he? M: No, he was not. P: He was fairly moderate. But he was for desegregation. M: Yes, definitely. P: Four square against it. M: Four square, yeah. P: Did you know Dorothy Height ? Tell us about what you knew about her? She was a somewhat hidden figure. She goes way back doesn = t she? M: Yes she does.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 232 P: In the civil rights movement. How many biographies have been written about her as opposed to the men? M: I don = t know about the biographies, but I know that she invited me to speak in Memphis at a meeting of the national YWCA, and I did, I spoke on my activities. She also invited to speak at Miami, I remember that was in 1966. I stayed down there in Miami and had one day to get ready to go to China on a Fulbright which was really tight, but I wasn = t going to miss that opportunity to speak to a national gathering of the YWCA and prai se them because they went so much faster and so much more effectively than the YMCA ever did. P: The first meeting you were invited to speak at that you just mentioned, when do you think that was? M: That was probably 1964. It was before I spoke in Miami and I can remember my wife Margaret was very concerned because she was trying to get everything ready for us to spend an entire year in a country where we probably couldn = t buy anything. We were going to Hong Kong, I guess we could have bought things there, but our income would have been very restricted. It was support for one person and we had a family of five of us. P: Did you know of Dorothy Height = s efforts? M: I picture her as a powerful person, but I don = t know about her other efforts. I = d like very much to find a biography and read and learn more than I know because I was so favorably impressed with her articulate expression, her forcefulness, and the power that she just let other people when she was in charge of a meeting. P: In 1963 in May, I graduated from the Universi ty of Pennsylvania and made contact with you about the Prince Edward County report and so fo rth, and it so happened that the commencement speaker at my graduation in Philadelphia was Fr ancis Keppel, the U.S. Commissioner of education

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SRC -10 Morland, page 233 at the time. You were deeply involved in the Office of Education in HEW around that time were you? M: I as involved in the sense that we asked for gr ants in order to carry out research. I can remember that was the first time I was ever fingerprinted o fficially. They put this black stuff on your hand and you had to roll all your fingers around. I had to be cl eared at that time because they were so afraid of infiltration by people who would be anti-American. I guess I did sit before the board, before the U.S. Office of Education, but my direct contacts were more with the Foundation for the Humanities and the National Science Foundation, I was a consultant for them. P: So you really didn = t have a way of knowing about his commitment to resolving these desegregation of school efforts? M: No, I don = t know. I think he was committed without question and was encouraged and was helpful, but I don = t know that much more other than a name. P: Did you ever meet Martin Luther King? M: Yes. P: Tell me about that. M: He came to Lynchburg to speak and he had dinner at the Lodge where we were. P: When was that? M: I don = t know those dates. They are in his biographies, but I = m not sure about the dates. P: Could you tell us whether it was before you had gone to Selma or after? M: I went to Selma in 1965 which was the year in which the Voting Rights Act was passed by Congress. I think it was probably after that. King did not come into prominence until the Montgomery bus boycott. He was a young minister at Dexter Avenue Baptist Church and they

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SRC -10 Morland, page 234 turned to him for leadership. He said I = m too young, I don = t have the experience that a lot of you have, but he was pushed into that position, and an eloquent, moving, charismatic figure. P: You had also heard him speak in other... M: He spoke at EC Glass Auditorium here too. P: So there had been some desegregation by that time if he spoke at EC Glass because that was a hard and fast segregated school at first. M: This was a public meeting and EC Glass Auditori um was the largest auditorium we had in the city. I can remember Margaret picking me up after t hat meeting and my mother-in-law being astounded. She said there are a lot of Blacks that came out of there. I said oh yes, it was an integrated meeting. She was from Birmingham and she... P: Who was that? M: My mother-in-law, Margaret = s mother, who noticed. There were two speakers, I won = t forget this. One was a lawyer, Leonard Holt from Danville and he said to the Blacks primarily... P: He was White? M: No, he was Black. It was predominantly a Black audience. P: Who sponsored it? M: I think probably the NAACP would be the organization. But he spoke in a very confrontational way. He said don = t let them forget that you = ve been pushed around all these years and it = s time for you to do a little pushing on your own. I was left out of that you know, I was the enemy practically, but when King spoke, it was an entirely differ ent statement, all-inclusive. He said we = re all American, we all believe in these basic fundamental human rights. I just had a chance to shake his hand after the meeting, but I never really got to know him personally. P: About how big was the audience? How many Whites were in the audience you reckon?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 235 M: I remember about eight or ten of us got toget her and went down to a predominantly Black meeting. I think we might have been the only ones, but ther e might have been others sprinkled in there, I don = t nkow. P: Did you know Andy Young ? M: Yes. P: Tell us about him. M: I first met Andrew Young in Selma. I used to go to Brown Chapel when Martin Luther King was there, and King would inspire. He would inspire, though, in a very positive way. He said when you go out to march tomorrow, if you have hatred in your heart, if you can = t take all of these [End of Tape 9, side A] slanderous statements or even any physical violence, please don = t march, stay out. P: You told us about that. M: Okay. Well Young was the tactician, the strategist who worked with LeRoy Collins and Jack Greenberg to make that march to Montgomery from Selma successful. It could not have been done without Young = s careful planning and technique that he used. King needed him because King was an inspirer, but he wasn = t an organizer particularly. P: I heard a perfectly wonderful little story about one of your trips to the East, to Asia. You had gone to India and I think you had trip to Bombay and you arrived with your suitcases and so forth. Did you get on a bus? Could you tell me that little story? M: Sure. The intercontinental international flight s arrive at Bombay at about 2:30 in the morning or 2:00 in the morning. They leave about the same time. I = m not quite sure why that = s the case. Of course, it = s very warm whether there, but we had co me from a conference in Taiwan where I presented a paper with my Chinese colleague Huang Chin Ho . Arriving there B the airport is

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SRC -10 Morland, page 236 some distance from our hotel in the city, I inquir ed to find out the relative cost of a bus ride and a taxi. I found out that a taxi costs four or five times as much as a bus would, and the busses looked perfectly suitable to us and I asked the bus driver how long does it take to get there? He said not much longer than it takes a taxi. So we took the bus. P: And your family was with you. M: Yes. And we took our luggage and the conductor who was moving among the passengers said you sit on your luggage so it won = t be stolen and I = ll watch it for you too. He said I = ll tell you when you = re supposed to get off, you = re going to the Taj Mahal Hotel. He said that = s actually the end of our run, but we = ll get you there. In conversation, he said this was not his regular job. He took this on at night in order to get his ch ildren through college. He had a day time job as well as a night time job. He also said when you leave the hotel and you = re going to catch a plane, they all knew the planes = schedules, you ought to leave at a particular time, about 1:00a.m. I think, and our bus will be there at approximately that time so you watch for us and I = ll watch for you and be sure that we take you back. So we visited with our friends from India who = s family had visited us here and who had two daughters who attended R andolph-Macon, who graduated from RandolphMacon. So we got on the bus and these little ch ildren all over at that time would plead for something and we had few of our rupees left and we gave them to these little children who would extend their hands or give us little flowers in exc hange for something, but they were very lovely and poverty was terrible in India. We got back on the bus and the conductor welcomed us. He said I = ve saved special seats for you and we = ll get to that airport in plenty of time and we continued our conversation. He said you know, you = re my best American friends. We said we = re glad and you are one of our best Indian friends. He said do you know why I = m so nice to you? I said well, we like to be nice to people. He said but I = m nice because I believe in an afterlife when I die and if

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SRC -10 Morland, page 237 I = m nice to people I will get a better position in the afterlife than I have now. So we asked him, when you come back in reincarnation what would you like to be? He said he would like to be a rich man. Earlier he had told us it = s a shame to waste all that money on a taxi when we have a perfectly good bus and we can get you to the hotel and I = m so glad you = re on the bus (that was part of our conversation). Then going on the return trip he said I am nice to you because in my life to come I will have a better position. So we asked him what kind of position would you like to have when you are reincarnated? He said I want to be a rich man. We said if you become a rich man and you arrive at the airport, would you take a ta xi or would you take this bus? He said I = d take a taxi. That = s the story. P: Very cute. I don = t think that very many people would know that you are something of a poet, you = re not the only poet in the family. I = ve heard a couple limericks that you = ve composed and I wonder if we could get you to recite them. One was in connection with a friend of yours who wrote a book on collected and his own personal limericks. You looked at the title and knowing his name and being a friend of yours, you composed a limer ick about his limerick book, did you? Could you recite that for me? M: Yes. This was written by Keith Crim who was professor of philosophy at VCU... P: Virginia Commonwealth University. M: Editor of the John Knox Press and also editor of the major press in Philadelphia. He wrote a book under a pseudonym in which he used his middle name as his last name and he called himself K.C., Keith Crim, Renn. The name of the book is Limericks Lay and Clerick , so he had limericks about lay people and about men who were ministers. P: Or issues about religion and so forth?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 238 M: Yes, about religion in one way or the other. So I composed this poem for K.C. Renn, his pseudonym, and told him what it was. A A limerick writer named Renn/ which was his nom de pen/ wrote of clerick and lay/ in so hilarious a way/ as to bring mirth to both Keith and to Ken. That = s it. And we can spell Ken A Ken @ or A Kin @ . P: Boy that is opportunistic humor. Race issues wher e a central part of your lif e. Did you ever write a limerick about race of any sort? M: I worked for an organization here called the educ ation research foundation, which carries out experimentations in dermatological products for major pharmaceutical companies, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Johnson & Johnson, Allergan, and others. We have to put advertisements in the paper for subjects, we have to open it up to everybody, everybody = s supposed to have the same opportunity. We put this with a logo in the advertising pages of the Lynchburg News and Advance . The advertisement has to be approved by an institutional board on which I serve. It = s an institution review board and unless and until we sa y the informed consent is what it should be following the description that the pharmaceutical company wants to take out and unless the ad in the paper is what it should be, they cannot conduct their experiment. In other words, they have to have the approval of the Institution Review Boar d, the IRB. There was a question of when they needed all White subjects, non-Black subjects, as to what adjective they would use in deciding which of the subjects would be qualified. P: Assuming that you need to hold race const ant as a control variable in the experiment. M: That = s right, in this experiment we did. Ot herwise, we just open it up wide if it doesn = t matter. In this it did matter. They needed people who had relatively light skin and the ones who were... And the director of the foundation said we = ll use the word fair and that will mean that no Blacks will apply and we will screen them out by the ad. I s uggested that if you use fair, you are using an

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SRC -10 Morland, page 239 evaluative term and isn = t there a more non-evaluative term like light-skinned people or the like of the, light complexion or however it is. But I wa s voted down on that so I wrote a limerick for the next meeting. P: In somewhat protest? M: Somewhat protest, and the limerick goes like this. There was a young girl, a sweet lamb/ who smiled as she boarded a tram/ when they had embarked/ the conductor remarked/ you = re fare/ and she blushed, yes I am. Of course his fare wa s f-a-r-e, but she thought it was f-a-i-r, that was the pun. P: On a more serious side of your career, th is is not to dismiss your deep talent for poetry... M: Thank you. P: But you received many, many awards in your life and one of them I don = t think many people would know about, it = s a Cultural Laureate Award. M: Of Virginia. P: Would you describe what that is and about your being awarded it. M: For perhaps ten years, the Commonwealth of Virg inia made provisions for full time staff to chose Virginians that they thought merited recognition as what they call cultural laureates. They chose and invited people to become members of that. Keith Crim was in the first group and he recommended me very strongly and so did others, so I was invited to become a cultural laureate. We had a meal, a very elaborate meal, and then a re ception at the Marriot Hotel in Richmond. P: Who appoints you, who recognizes you for this award? M: The official invitation to become a laureat e came from the head of the staff that had been funded by the state of Virginia, Commonwealth of Virginia . So he wrote and said we want you to come to Richmond for acknowledgment celebration of your being a cultural laureate. It happened that I was

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SRC -10 Morland, page 240 overseas when that came and I know the person asked Keith Crim when he didn = t hear from me and he didn = t hear from me, isn = t Morland interested in this? Keith explained to him, Dr. Crim did, that I was overseas but he was sure I would be glad to accept. The minute I got home, the first thing I did was to find that and I telephoned the dire ctor of the staff and so we had the meeting in Richmond. P: This is quite an honor. Your wife, of course, wa s a poet laureate for a period in Virginia as well. The Cultural Laureate, was that an award for contribut ions in the field of enriching culture? What is it related to? M: There were recognition of a number of differ ent areas. The legal profession and the ministerial profession, the educational profession. I think there were about ten or twelve categories and mine was in education. P: I see. So in your early days in Virginia you were called a communist and in your latter days you were called a cultural laureate. M: That = s right. I preferred the latter. P: You received many, many other aw ards, what are some of them you = re most proud of? M: Let me go back. I was very pleased that Mills Godwin who was governor of Virginia. P: At the time? M: No, not at the time no. I think Governor Robb was. I = m not sure, I think maybe it was the one who preceded Robb, I think it was. At any rate , he was the one that put over my head the laureate symbol and he said I remember your father very well. He was getting me confused with Jay Earl Morland of Randolph-Macon College just outside of Richmond, and I didn = t say anything different. I say well I certainly felt great admiration and lo ve for him, so we went on our way. But he had trouble getting it over my head and my wife in a stage whisper said he = s gotten this award, he = s

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SRC -10 Morland, page 241 gotten such a big head they can = t get that over his head. But they had to untie it and then retie it and they did that. I happened to be the very first one that Mills Godwin was given the honor or honoring, decorating. P: What other awards did you find very satisfying that you = ve received? What would be the ones that you remember in a singular way? M: The NCCJ, the National Association for Christians and Jews, which now has changed its name to the National Association for Community and Justice, I was awarded that in Lynchburg here. There were two awards made, one for me and one for a ministerial couple. I considered that a high honor. Also, in the midst of the battle for civil right s, the NCCJ did too little I felt. They were not willing to expose themselves to the extent that sa y the Virginia Council was or the NAACP or other organizations were. Nevertheless, they were in the background to applaud and to encourage us, and it = s a highly respected organization by those who know anything about it. P: Did you happen to know Peter Malette at that time? M: Yes I did, yes. I think he was the state director. I got to know him very well, yes. P: You spent a lifetime with scholarship, very intense work. M: There = s one other award that I prize. Just recently the Lynchburg Bar Association, the lawyers of Lynchburg who are organized gave me the Patrick Henry Award. We had a dinner and I spoke at that dinner and I thanked the lawyers very much, but it was a very high honor. P: When was that? M: That was about four years ago. P: Well that is indeed an honor, and there were many , many more. I look back on your scholarship and your books and the many articles and your teac hing and all the rest that was part of your academic life, and I think how time consuming t hat was for you then, and then I think about your

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SRC -10 Morland, page 242 activism, your work with SRC and the NAACP Legal Defense Fund and the Virginia Council on Human Relations and all the local activities you had here. My goodness, how did you find time to do all of this? And you had a family, it was a big family at the same time. M: It was very difficult, and I had three kinds of encouragement and three kinds of support, otherwise I could not. The college, both the president Willia m Quillian whom I had known at Yale Divinity School and who married the dean = s daughter Margaret Quillian and I see them every now and then. The college I worked in and the dean, Harriette Hudson , were very supportive and I always let them know if I was going to be engaged in any kind of overt activity and if I were receiving any kind of reward, I wanted them to know ahead of time . They were supported. There were a number of people in civil rights who lost their jobs, who had to leave the city, other things that happened to them. One person, John Withrow allowed a group of pacifists to speak to his class in third grade. As a result, he was fired from his job and he had to leave. He = s returned to Lynchburg recently, but he would typical. Ministers lost their jobs , but I had the support of the college which brought in my income. I also had the support of the family . Margaret would answer these slanderous calls over the telephone. I remembered her saying once she often got that call tell your husband to get out of town and she started to say well he is out of town, and then she thought that would not be a good idea. So you ask what is your name, w ho are you, and who do you represent? And they always hang up as a result. One very interesting thing, Virgil Wood was a pastor of the Diamond Hill Baptist Church, he = s Black. He was really one of the activists, major activists among the Blacks in the community and some of them were very uncomfortable with Virgil, but he was forthright. He really was forced out of the comm unity not only by the attitudes of the Whites and the newspaper, but also by Blacks who were a bit uncomfortable with him. P: They were more conservative?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 243 M: They were less conservative than he was in dem onstrative kinds of activities. I was in Virgil Wood = s home once and I saw his wife with a telephone in her lap and she was reading from the Bible. I asked Virgil, I said what in the world is going on? He said these people who want to get rid of us call and they don = t say anything but they breathe heavily [heavy breathing sounds], so we thought that as long as they = re on the other end, they should hear a little scripture. So not know who that was, his wife was reading psalms and other things to whoever the detractor was. P: So she was poised for these phone calls sitting there ready with the Bible. M: And my daughters, three daughters, were also supportive and some of them had a hard time with school as a result of that. Then finally the church I was in was very supportive of what I was doing and that was not true of most of the churches. Most of the churches were against integration, they were not activists in the area of human rights. P: Tell us a little bit more about that church. How many members did you have? What was the name of it? M: Peakland Baptist Church. P: Who was the minister at the time who was so supportive? M: Arthur Brown was our first minister for ten years. He left because he was active in race relations, but not particularly active. The church was founded as really an ecumenical group. We took people... Unlike other Baptist churches you have to be immersed, but no immersion was required, immersion could be requested. I went in with a background of non-immersion. I group up in the Methodist Episcopal Church Sout h, the M.E. Church South. P: This Baptist Church was not affiliated with t he Southern Baptist Convention was it? Your Baptist church here. M: Our church was not, no.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 244 P: What was the national denomination? M: We were affiliated with the American Baptist Churches, Valley Forge headquarters. P: How big was the church? How many people would you say at the time? M: We were founded in 1956, the same year in which Jerry Falwell established Thomas Road Baptist Church. P: You told me about this. M: We have perhaps 200 or 250 members. Falwell claims 20,000 so he = s done better than we and he = s getting ready to build the largest church in American right now. P: The membership was at what level back then in the 1950s and 1960s when you were looking for a church where you could be supported? How many people were members then? M: The basis of that church were people who left the First Baptist Church which is downtown Lynchburg. Hard parking and not quite the ecumenica l outreach that this group had. They invited me to speak at a number of the services which I was very glad to do. We first met in a school house which probably we couldn = t do now until a church was built. So we now have a church with genuine flying buttresses and a slate roof with a high pitched... P: Where is the church? M: It = s on Peakland Place which is in t he Weston Northern area of Lynchburg. P: What = s the street it = s on? M: It = s Peakland Place, that = s what it = s called. P: Is it far from here, from your house? M: We can get there in about four minutes. P: Was the building built during t he period of the Civil Rights Era? In other words, were you going to that church then?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 245 M: Yes. P: It was built about what time? M: The church building, and I was there when they dedicated it, they put in the corner stone, and the chief speaker was the rabbi from A Good of Shalom Congregation because we were very, very close to them. As a matter of fact, we together with them formed the first community Thanksgiving Day service, and now there are about six or eight churches and we rotate holding that service on Thanksgiving and having a brunch kind of arrangement as well. P: Did you tell me how many people were in it during the Civil Rights Era? Not 200 was it? M: It = s never been more than 100 basic members and when you include the families it goes to 250 or 300. We are not any more than that, we probably never will be. P: Did the church as an organization take part in either Civil Rights activities or was it not official. I = m trying to get a feel for how... Was it a home for civil rights and so forth? M: It was not activist. There were members of t he Virginia Council on Human Relations in many of the churches... P: Across the city. M: Yes. But the churches themselves were not active. The pastors might have B as a matter of fact, one of the ministers of a Baptist church was forced out of his pulpit because he belonged to the Virginia Council on Human Relations. P: But I was trying to understand the environment t hat you and Margaret and your children went to church in and what kind of support. When you w ent there, most of the people were sympathetic with your activities and very few would be out and out segregationists at that time. M: There were some who left the church because we were as ecumenical. I remember one person who was so just vigorously opposed to desegregation. She somehow got aligned with Landon

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SRC -10 Morland, page 246 Lane of Alta Vista where they make Lane Cedar Chest. She said there = s something wrong with our church, we = re not growing. Landon Lane said it = s because Kenneth Morland is part of your congregation. But she left the church and went to another one. P: So it left a congregation that was rather sympathetic to desegregation? M: I would say so, yes. P: Was the unitarian church like that as well? Were they mostly simpatico with... M: Very, very much so. We wanted, I think I = ve mentioned before some central meeting place and some place to hold our annual banquet. We were turned down by the downtown churches. P: You = re talking about the Lynchburg Council? M: The Lynchburg Council on Human Relations. P: And you couldn = t hold it at your church? Your church wasn = t big enough or what? M: Our church is out of the way, it = s not centrally [located]. It = s very difficult to... Once we were established, once the Martin Luther King Center fo r Human Rights was established, our minister who was minister for thirty-three years, Nathan Brooks who has just recently retired had us meet at the Martin Luther King Center until we found the library which is a much more central location. P: But that = s a very recent development isn = t it? M: Recent. P: What year had that began? M: It probably occurred about five years ago. We would have our luncheons there at Peakland Baptist Church and it was very strongly integrated. P: That described two churches that were sym pathetic with desegregation in which you could have desegregated meetings and so forth, the Unitarian Church and your c hurch. A third place was the Church of the Covenant. When did that begin and then part of it, you told me about the camp and

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SRC -10 Morland, page 247 the swimming pool issue and so forth, and the Lodge of the Fisherman has kind of been a project of that Church of the Covenant. How did that begin and was that a third place where people could count on to be desegregated? M: Yes, very definitely. P: What years was that founded and what was the earliest support one could receive from the Church of the Covenant? M: Beverly Cosby who is B who was, he died recently at a young age of 75 B was the founder of the church. P: Do you remember the year? M: The year would have been 1954, 1955 perhaps. P: So that was in the heart of the Civil Rights Era. M: Yes, it was in the heart of the movement. P: So, that was a warm spot for those of you who needed. M: It really was a haven. Beverly = s brother, Gordon Cosby founded the Church of the Savior in Washington D.C., and it engaged in many ministries as this church has done: low-cost housing, food, banks, literacy programs teaching people to ri ght. It has sprung off a number of different groups. For a while there was the organization of more than forty or fifty Lynchburg churches which were brought together by the Church of the Covenant, but it has recently changed its name to the Interfaith Association. P: I have another question about how you were able to be active in the community and in the state, and for that matter the nation as an academic. Was it sort of normal for academics to be active in the Civil Rights Era? Do you recall? Or were they pretty much like everybody else, they were

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SRC -10 Morland, page 248 apathetic or they were intimidated or they remained segregationist? How rare were you at the time as something of an activist during the 1950s and 1960s and 1940s? M: I think anybody who was involved to the degree that I was was fairly rare. I suppose that college professors would vary a great deal, our own facu lty did. I was criticized for jeopardizing the reputation of the college by faculty members. Mo st faculty members were not only supportive, they were members of the Lynchburg chapter of the Virginia Council on Human Relations. P: But not a majority of them. M: No, not a majority. Most would approve, but t hey just had other things that had higher priority than that did. P: How about other colleagues across the South, academic colleagues across the South? Was there a large proportion of activists? M: I = m not so sure about the South itself, but I do know that the three colleges in Lynchburg, Lynchburg College and Sweet Briar were very supportive. They had faculty members who were very supportive of our group. As a matter of fa ct, they made up the majority of the people in the Lynchburg chapter. [End of Tape 9, side B] P: You = ve spoken often of your family and what an in spiration they were to you and how you gained great comfort from your immediate family, particularl y during the Civil Rights Era. Also, your family of origin back in Alabama. Tell me about your brot hers and your sister. The fact that your mother died when you were how old? M: Five years old. P: Tell me who raised you. You mentioned that your grandmother had raised you somewhat. M: She did her best, but it was very... I don = t know how she survived us. I think when we became a bit mature we were okay, but she was a lovely loving person.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 249 P: Did she live with you? M: Yes she did. P: So it was you, your dad who was a doctor, and your siblings, and your grandmother after your mother died. Do you remember your mother very much? M: I don = t remember her. My younger brother and sister of course don = t. My older brother who = s two years older than I am remembers a little bit about her. P: Start with the oldest sib and go down the list and tell us a little bit about each one and what they meant to you. Especially when you were adults and their careers. M: The oldest one was Evelyn for whom our youngest daughter is named. She was a wonderful big sister. I think she was thirteen years old when my mother and so she had a very important role with her, all these five youngsters, particularly the four youngest. Evelyn I can remember helped me with my Latin. I would get awfully frustrated and she would very calmly sit down and go over it with me. She was very encouraging. She told me that one of her good friend = s a teacher at Phillips High School which had about 3,000 students, that I was one of the best students they had. That was very encouraging because I had no idea that was the case. But she was a very loving, loveable, kind, generous person. She herself went in to teaching. She was the last person to get a graduate degree at Birmingham Sout hern, they closed out the depa rtment then. She got her graduate degree in Masters of History and taught in schools in southern Alabama. P: And your next? M: Howard was the oldest boy. Howard again ve ry helpful, particularly to my grandmother. My grandmother was in an accident when the car was hit and turned over, Howard was driving, and she lost all four fingers on her right hand. He said Mammo , that = s what we called her, I = ll be your right hand for you. In many ways, that woul d typify his attitude and his approach. He was

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SRC -10 Morland, page 250 encouraging. He went into YMCA work firs t in Chattanooga and then in Monroe, Louisiana where he had probably the same difficulty I have of heart a rrhythmia. Sometimes, heart arrhythmia can make you lose consciousness. He was in the upper part of his garage and apparently had atrial fibrillation, fell and hit his forehead on the bumper of the car and never recovered. I phoned constantly, I went down a couple of times, but there was no way to save his life. So he = s gone. He worked at the [YMCA]. One of the things he did was to organize trips for [YMCA] boys and he and one other adult rented a truck and they had it refu rbished so that we could all sit back to back and put our things underneath and we went to Chicago, to the World Fair, went up from Chicago into Canada, down from Canada all the way down the East Coast. P: You told us about those trips. But this was your brother who was... M: This was my brother the one that went to Cuba. I didn = t get to go because it was my other brother = s turn to go. In other words, we always had to do turns. I can remember as a child when my three older siblings were allowed to go to Pa int Rock at a fishing camp and my father said we were too young to go. He went to the drug store was just beneath his office and he made each one of us an enormous sundae. He knew how to do that and the people in the drug store always let him do that. So I can remember that kind of remembrance as well. P: You had cited the YMCA experience and trips and how they influenced your liberalization of your ideas about race and so forth. So this brother was very important by creating that opportunity. M: Exceedingly important, yes. P: Did he have a son that came into his own notoriety. M: Yes, his name was Howard too. There was a way of naming people in my family. The oldest son, my father, was Howard Canon Morland; my older brother was Howard Cowan Morland because my mother was Ethel Mae Cowan; and then my nephew, Howard = s son is Howard Bitzer Morland

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SRC -10 Morland, page 251 and he lives in Arlington now. He was involved in what would have been now a freedom of information court battle in which he tried to warn people that you couldn = t keep the secret of the atom bomb or the hydrogen bomb because other people knew it and what you need to do is to protect yourself, and above all to try to be sure t hat those bombs were not used that would just destroy so much life. P: He was an anti-nuclear activists wasn = t he? M: Very much so. P: He wrote this book, very interesting book about his goal to defend himself from the federal government. M: The book was named The Secret That Exploded , I thought it was very timely. P: It sort of sounds like he carried some of the sa me genes you did. Next after Howard, who was next in line? M: Alvin. P: Tell us about Al. M: Alvin went to Birmingham Southern two years, but he was the only one of us who left Birmingham Southern. He went to what was then Alabama Po lytechnic Institute, but which is now called Auburn in Auburn, Alabama (they didn = t like that API name) and he graduated there. P: What did he do in his career? M: He was in the paper business in Richmond and t hen he met his future wife, Alvin did. Then he was a part of the Chamber of Commerce in Richmond and then he was invited to take over the Fort Pierce Chamber of Commerce as its head in Flor ida. Then he wound up his career as head of the Chamber of Commerce in Pompano Beach, Florida, and that = s where he lives now. P: Who was after Alvin?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 252 M: I was immediately under, and then three years y ounger than I am is my brother Richard, many called him Dick. I was never called Ken, I was called Kenneth, he = s always called Richard by us. Richard went to Birmingham Southern and then w ent to New York University and received his doctorate under Theodore Brammel who was his major professor, we discussed him, talked a little bit about him. He taught the Philosophy of Education first at Florida State College and then he wound up at Stetson University. He gained all t he high honors that a college professor can gain. He had an endowed chair chosen as the most popular teacher and he has a statue, it = s really the head that molded out of brass, that = s in their library at Stetson. My youngest [sibling] was Ethel , Ethel Mae , a loving sister. She was born when my mother died, but she was such a lovely, loving person. She was not much of a scholar. She graduated from Birmingham Southern and met her husband there, Sammy Prewitt with whom I played basketball. We were both on the varsity team. But Sammy was one of the early casualties of WWII. He was on a minesweeper which was blown up and he went down somewhere off the coast of France. P: So Howard is deceased. Everybody else? M: No. Evelyn was the first to die, and then Ethel very recently died. But not before Alvin and Richard and I could make a plan to go down and be with her because she had already been diagnosed as having cancer and probably it had metastasized and we knew she wouldn = t last long. She lived in Montgomery. She taught school t here along with my older sister for awhile. She was so cordial and greeted us and I = ll never forget our conversation with her in 1987. I called to tell her that I = d planned to go on a trip to China with people all of whom had been there before, had grown up there and had experiences there, and that I felt uneasy about going because I knew that she was so ill. She told me, she said you go and enjoy that trip, and when you come back you

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SRC -10 Morland, page 253 can tell me all about it. When I came back she was no longer living, but that was the kind of person she was. P: You grew up and despite the loss of your mother , you grew up in kind of a genteel family. Your father was an educated man. Y our grandmother struggled because of her age a bit with six kids and she = d already done her part, but she came back. But it sounds like you had a pretty good childhood given the circumstances. M: A very special, wonderful [childhood]. I some times wonder, I almost got into trouble in several instances. I can see how easily it is if you once get into trouble and get labeled, but I always managed to squeeze out. I won = t tell you some of the things that we did, but they could have gotten me into a delinquency category quite easily I think. There was nobody supervising us really. P: So you came home and you were alone there and you had to do your homework, you had to figure it out or your older sibs helped? M: Older sibs, particularly Evelyn was most helpful with homework. P: She was very nurturing and added to the... And the issue of race in that family was of the genteel variety you talked about before? M: Yes. P: It was just kind of conforming to segr egation, but not with the virulence that we = ve seen in some... M: Not at all. I think I told you, my father said some of his best patients, the ones that paid him so promptly and the ones that appreciated him more than anybody else were Blacks. We always had probably one of his patients who did housework and did cooking for us, so I got to know them pretty well. The important part of my recreational life was to go from the elementary school to the YMCA and I learned to swim there and I learned to play basketball there, ping-pong. We had YMCA trips out to the camp that the [Y MCA] owned and that continued when I was in Phillips High

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SRC -10 Morland, page 254 Schools, it was a short walk to the [YMCA]. When I was at Southern I worked Saturday evenings at the [YMCA]. I was on the desk there to take care of anybody who came in, anybody who needed any help, answer the phone. P: I understand that in a certain manner of speak ing, you were related to Virginus Dabney, the famous editor and historian of the Richmond Times Dispatch . M: Yes. P: Can you tell me how you were related to Virginus Dabney? M: When my older brother Alvin and his wife Gretchen who = s from Richmond adopted a child, they adopted Vern, and Virginus Dabney and I were given the title of godfathers. So Virginus Dabney and I were co-godparents. P: Quite a team you would make, the two of you. So did you meet him and know him a little bit? M: Oh yes, yes I did. P: Did you ever talk to him about race relations? M: Dabney was more traditional in segregation, but one thing that he did was to fight against the attempt to label the Virginia Council on Human Re lations as communist. He wrote in his paper and editorials and in op-ed pieces, this is a non-communist organization. It is fighting for equality of all Americans, not in exactly the way I would do it, but it is an honorable organization and people should not accuse it falsely as they = re doing. I wrote him and thanked him very much for that kind of support. P: Do you think James Jackson Kilpatrick treated you with the same kid gloves? Or do you think he ever wrote about the... M: He didn = t, although I remember his writing about a sit-in or a demonstration either at Tolheimer = s or Millen Road , probably Tolheimer = s. He said, the more dignified, the better behaved persons

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SRC -10 Morland, page 255 were the Blacks who were demonstrating. The rabble-rousers who were condemning them were Whites. He said what in the world is happening here? I think he was getting a new view in that way. P: I don = t think that = s to be interpreted as he was in favor of desegregation. M: Oh no, it would not be. He wrote an edi torial about my nephew, Howard Morland, in which he called him chicken little. He said the world is not falling in. He didn = t approve of what my nephew did writing about as an anti-nuclear activist. P: He had written a notable article in the Progressive magazine and then this book. M: That = s correct, but that notable article was blocked before it could be published so it was a court case. P: In recent months, I = ve grown to know your wife, Margaret Ward Morland, much better than I did earlier. There = s much that could be said about your marriage to her. We learned about where you met, that sort of thing, but what would you have to say about your marriage with Margaret? M: She = s been completely supportive of me, particularly in terms of positions that I would take. She has always left those decisions to me without any ki nd of intervention. For example, it was a very difficult decision to leave William and Mary and come to Randolph-Macon because we liked a lot of the people at William and Mary, although it = s a kind of tourist town and it = s not in the mountainous area like Birmingham which we were both from and which we enjoy so much. The weather, the temperature or t he climate are better. We had a chance to go to Florida and she would have gone there, although I think she would have preferred Virginia, and we had a chance to go to the University of Virginia. We had a chance to go to VCU by the way. I was invited, I went over and I spoke to a couple of classes. I for get when that was. But somebody in almost a hearty way said we have the trouble all universities and colleges have, we can = t get along with the

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SRC -10 Morland, page 256 administration, there = s no place to park. I said to myself, we have a wonderful administration at Randolph-Macon. We get along just fine, we = re on personal close terms, and we have lots and lots of parking places. P: This was after VCU became VCU, in other words after 1968 that you had this invitation? M: Oh yes, it was probably in 1970s and maybe even in the 1980s, I = m not sure. P: Let me turn to asking you some questions whic h call on you to reflect on some of the big things, almost unanswerable questions. Your experiences as an activist and a scholar, teacher, and all the rest put you in a place where you = d have some interesting things to say about this. M: Let me come back to that and just add that Mar garet gave herself completely to this family and it was only after our oldest daughter had finished college that she began to write poetry. P: Is that right? She never tried it before? M: She had written poetry when she was at a college and when she got her master = s degree at the University of North Carolina where she and I got together. But her poetry, her masterful use of imagery and of words propelled her into poet laureate of Virginia. The Poetry Society of Virginia, which is made up of 450 poets chose her as their r epresentative for the posit ion of poet laureate. This was before the poets in Virginia had paid any attention to the positi on of poet laureate, but now it = s a highly visible position and she was the fi rst one that the poetry society honored and that she was elected unanimously by the House of Delegates and by the Senate of the Virginia legislature. P: That = s wonderful. Back to these big questions. What do you think ought to be the role of the social sciences in the academy, in the universities and colleges, and for that matter in American society at large? Do you think they have any specia l obligation to improve society, is that part of

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SRC -10 Morland, page 257 their role, and are the social sciences any different in their responsibility than the humanities or the life of the physical sciences and other scienc es that you find in universities today? M: I think that the social scientist working in the area of human relations have a greater opportunity than those in the physical sciences and even those in the humanities. We can push our research in which we seek to be as objective as possible in order to understand what is going on and as I said before, earlier, you can = t deal with the situation effectively to change it, unless you understand it. So I think the social scientist can be active in a number of area, but as a social scientist, he has an obligation to hold within the sci entific discipline, and to seek to increase our knowledge and to increase our understanding of causat ion. Some people would chose to do that in race, some may be in religion, others in the community life and how it operates, but to chose the area of activity I think is to chose an area in which the person has a special interest and in which his research tends to go. P: We hear a lot these days, the last decade or so, about what might be called a competition between science and creationism, especially important in a community like this which has Jerry Falwell = s church who is a great advocate of creationism, but some school boards are pressing down to put them on an equal basis, science and creationism, and ot hers are trying to promote as the superior explanation of our origins. What do you think of this controversy? M: It = s been a lifelong issue. I remember coming to Lynchburg and being invited to speak at the Unitarian church and my first talk there was that the notion of science on the one hand versus religion on the other is an unnecessary kind of conf lict because science deals with different kinds of questions and has a different kind of discipline from what religion does. I said one thing we = ve done at last is to show the most adequate explanat ion of similarities and differences in organic forms, past and present, is explained by the theory of evolution. Was I ever wrong, it just come

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SRC -10 Morland, page 258 roaring back and keeps come roaring back. Now since 1996, it = s taken on a new form called intelligent design and there are some prominent scientists who adhere by intelligent design. P: By that they mean there = s one watchful force over us who created all of this and sort of explains all the dynamics that we observe. M: It does, but it = s not based on empirical evidence. The cr eationists, the intelligent designers push policy and politics and education to adopt the creationist view and sometimes it = s a restatement of Genesis, but even Genesis offers a problem becaus e there are two quite different stories of creation in Genesis. There = s Genesis one which says in the beginning was God and then there were six days of creation, on the seventh day God rested. This was a really a Levite, priestly account because they wanted to get people to come to the synagogue or to be holy on the seventh day, and if God had to rest on the seventh day, God knows we have to rest. But that = s a very different approach from the Adam and Eve story whic h is in Genesis two. In that case, God created human beings just as they are making wo man from a rib out of man, although people keep counting their ribs and they got the same number as they always have had. But God had to go to work, he molded man out of the clay of the earth and breathed until it became a living soul. So that is a very different creation story except both hav e the notion that a superior power, a being, a God if you will, has been creator and sustainer of life on Earth. P: Adam and Eve were said to have two sons and all of the worlds population is derived from these two sons, or one of these sons and their mo ther, and somebody else. Can an anthropologist answer that for me? M: No, an anthropologist wouldn = t start out that way. P: That = s the way the story reads, is it not? Correct me if I = m wrong.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 259 M: They had the two sons, Cain and Abel and Cain killed Abel. Somebody asked him and he said am I my brother = s keeper? But Cain was driven out and he found a wife in the land of Nod, that = s what Genesis says, but we don = t know when they were created or how they came to be what they were. P: We don = t know who this woman was and where ________ it = s created. I read Genesis a few weeks ago and didn = t find any explanation of what God was doing in Nod. Did he create some other beings over there? M: There = s are questions that are unanswerable and that r eally contradict the logic of somebody... There = s a wonderful song say, somebody said they didn = t understand why Adam had eaten the apple and the answer is that Adam never had no mommy for to take him on the knee and teach him right from wrong, tell him what he ought to be. I know down in my heart, he = d let that apple be, but Adam never had no dear old mommy. He started in the world a grown up man, he didn = t have any of these ideas. I think that = s a delightful theological commentary. P: I have to remind our readers and listeners of this that you have a divinity degree and an anthropology degree, so I can = t think of better competence for deciphering this confusion for a person like me. M: The creationist stories ar e found in all cultures and they = re very different, but there is a kind of creator. But there is no way to test or to do research in creationism. You mentioned a school board, this was in Kansas, that tried to delete evolution from its classrooms and from its teachings, but it was reinstated when the head of the board was forced to resign, but this pressure is brought to bear constantly in a city like Lynchburg, for example. The high school to which my granddaughter goes was accosted by a group of Li berty University students, Jerry Falwell = s students and they had a big sign A the road to Hell because you = re not being taught creationism,

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SRC -10 Morland, page 260 you = re being taught evolution along with other things @ . Interestingly, the police arrested and some of those students went to jail for six months or something. P: The Liberty students? M: Yes, and the outside agitator that really got them into trouble. P: You spent so many years in the social sciences, I = d like to ask this. What do you see ahead for the social sciences, anthropology, sociology, and the others, especially as their domain touches on moral choices such as in race relations? What do you think is ahead for social sciences? Are they going to play a role in this? In public discussions these days, you don = t hear much in the press from sociologists, anthropologists, and other experts. Most of the political discussion is by, at best, journalists, but at least is usually entertainers lik e on Politically Incorrect or some of these shows that no longer resort to using experts, thoroughgoi ng students of these things. Where will these social scientists end up with the respect of these moral choices that society = s confronted with, especially the ones that have to do with race? M: One thing that the American Anthropological Soci ety did was to spend an entire year of all of its anthropology bulletins that I receive showing and emphasizing that racial categories are not in reality so separate that they can be easily or readily categorized. We select a few characteristics maybe and then try to put people in different categories. But race is not an actuality in and of itself. I = ve had a number of my students at Randolph-Macon w ho said the thing I got most out of your classes was a new view of race, and I think to info rm is certainly one of the tasks that all social scientists have. That race is a socio-politic al categorizing more than it is anything else. P: As one of my friends Ted Allen who wrote a two volume book on the origins of race because he says its an invented category, invention of the White race is how he puts it. M: That = s interesting, yeah, I read that.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 261 P: Looking back, how far would you say we = ve come in race and ethnic relations? How would you characterize it and more importantly, what = s left to be done? M: I think culminating in the 1954 Supreme Court decision, which I consider the most important decision of the court in the 20th century, we have moved away fr om legally required segregation. The schools in Lynchburg, for example, are all racially balanced. There = s a proportion of Whites and Blacks as there are in the population, and there = s been no re-segregation of schools here. They = ve maintained their integrated posture, and I think it means that people are getting to know each other as persons. Race is still a reality in the sense that people treat those considered to be of a different race differently, and it is still very much alive, although B and I gave this as a talk in what we call the Federal Hill Forum about two years ago B I have this notion of race doesn = t actually exist, but it is real because people believe it is real and it = s what people believe that determines we act toward one another. P: Perception of reality, whether it = s a true reality or not. What would you say to those who argue that not every community enjoys a balance of race and are in fact re-segregated cities. They cite New York and the other big cities and they cite Ri chmond and they cite many, many southern cities as well. Then some are even saying that the 1954 Supreme Court decision was a mistake, that somehow desegregation has been a failure and that it di d lots of things to the Black community, it broke up certain traditions in the Black communi ty and so forth, and these critics whether you believe them or not are there and are saying these things. How would you respond to this kind of criticism given how long you = ve looked at this issue? M: I would say had they been alive say in 1950 and could have seen the effects of forced racial segregation as I did as a demeaning and very unequal kind of place in life where you couldn = t sit down at a lunch counter to eat if you were of Bla ck race, you could not go to a hotel or a motel, you

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SRC -10 Morland, page 262 couldn = t use restrooms. There have been these changes that give greater opportunity I think for both Blacks and Whites and any other category, Orient al or Asian, to move into better schools, higher education as we call it. For example, in my school we have a number of Asian students both from Japan and from Taiwan, fr om Singapore, China mainland even. P: You = re talking about Randolph-Macon? M: This is Randolph-Macon. We have a sizeabl e number of Black students. We have to persuade them because we have a high tuition and the way we do it is to find capable students and this is what I would call affirmative [action]. It = s like selecting a football or a basketball team. You don = t want to know their race or color, their ethnic ba ckground, their religion or anything else. You want to know can they perform this sport. This is more easily done because you can see the results, but affirmative action would not be pref erential treatment so much as it would be to be sure that all people in the society are given a relatively equal oppor tunity to do what they aspire to do and to get all the education that they wish to have. That was not the case when we had segregation. There was almost a cast-like differentiation and in this federal hill forum, there were two young Blacks and they said well, the surface things might have c hanged, but the rest of it has not changed. They were rather young and I said, you obviously were not here in the 1950s or the 1940s or prior to 1954, because things are different, there is opportuni ty. One of the young Blacks was a Chaplin at the Medical College of Virginia. I said you w ould never have had that position in the 1950s. The other was a student at Holland = s College. I said you wouldn = t have been in that college, which is a very fine school, had we not had that change in segregation. P: So despite what they may say, it was such a cruel reality that it couldn = t possibly, no one could if they were acquainted with the real fact s would never want to go back there. M: That = s well put. It was a cruel system.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 263 P: So these criticisms are about contemporary conditions that we perhaps ought to do something about. M: That = s right. P: And you can = t blame the freedom that was brought to Blacks by the 1954 Supreme Court decision for it. Would you say that = s... M: Yes, I think you summed it up very nicely. P: You = ve been around the world and looked at race relations and looked at it at home very closely. What do you think global implications are about our race relation system? Do you think there are any doubts raised across the world because of our racial practices at home? What other implications would you see about Americans? M: I heard a brilliant address by Andrew Young who was on the United Nations, our representative of the United Nations and also high political positions in Georgia, but he said the civil rights victories in the United States were not just for the United States, but that they had global implications. One of the great difficulties I had in going into ot her societies and talking about democracy and talking about equality of opportunity was to justify our system which was not one of equal treatment at all. P: This is back in the 1940s and 1950s your talking about. M: I = m talking about prior to the 1954 and the changing of American which still has a long way to go, I agree. But let me tell you this: the Japanese are very prejudiced against westerners and also against the aborigines of Japan. The Chinese, the Han Chinese are very prejudiced against those of other races and say the people in Tibet. We say, we have these little things you put on your bumper that says A Save Tibet @ . I was with my former Chinese students and I asked them about Tibet and they said oh, they = re backward, we = re trying to help them get modernized because they don = t have any industry and that sort of thing. These are terribly backward people. They = re

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SRC -10 Morland, page 264 not really Chinese, but we = re trying to lift them up. So I did not find a lack of discrimination in England or in Germany or certainly I was hit hard wi th it in China, Hong Kong is a little more open I think. Also, the British when I was there were in full control and the Chinese had pretty much freedom of movement. P: So if we could complete the job of racial and ethnic democracy in this country with our great tradition of enunciations of democracy, it could have incredible solid influence around the world. M: I think it could particularly as if countries move away from an authoritarian or totalitarian government into a democracy where all people are given an opportunity to choose their leaders or to participate in the full life of nation. It woul d be very, very valuable. If you wanted the next generations of youth to thoroughly understand what segregation was and all that it took to overcome it, what landmark events and which indi viduals would you like to assign them to study? M: Certainly I would give due credit to Booker T. Washington, although he said [End of Tape 10, side A] he did not fight against segregation as such, but in establishing Tuskegee Institute, he tried to get Blacks to do better than they did. I was brought up admiring George Washington Carver who held up a peanut and said what can I do with this? And as a chemist he made all sorts of things out of peanuts. Of course, this was in a highly s egregating time. I would say the real heroes of the overcoming of the cruel demeaning system of racial segregation so far as the minorities were concerned were Thurgood Marshall who said over and over again the constitution is on our side. We need to get sound court cases and to challenge on t he basis of the violation of the constitution, and that was his approach. He used social scientists with Jack Greenberg = s pushing a little bit I think to help with that decision, to show what some of the effects of segregation had been. I would certainly put Martin Luther King there. He dram atized what was going on. I would say John Lewis

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SRC -10 Morland, page 265 who led the march across Pettus Bridge over the Alabama River from Selma to Montgomery would be among those racial heroes, and innumerable ot hers who are not as prominently known. P: And the list is long. M: Yes. P: What I hear you saying [is] that we have everyt hing here to make a full democracy in America. We have the constitution as Thurgood Marshall instructs us, we have so many good values, we have all the makings of a complete democracy but we = re missing some of the will and some of the commitment up to date, but we have come a long way. Would you agree with that characterization? M: I would agree with that fully. I think there are inequities still on the basis of gender that we are addressing and that is being changed. I think wom en have more and more possibilities that they never dreamed of before. All of this, I think the women = s movement was helped terrifically by the civil rights movement, which stressed equal treatment, equal opportunity for all Americans. P: It began to fill out the definition of what democracy and equality is all about. M: Well said. P: And press deep into the soul of American cu lture. No longer was it an idle pronouncement. M: We are never completed. We have to keep al ert. There are certain prejudices against people of a lower socioeconomic income, I lived in a mill village, all White, for a year and I could see their low status, particularly in th eyes of those in the town. I heard over and over again mill people say we = re as good as anybody, but you would never hear a town person or the elite saying that, they already knew they were better than anybody and not have to say anything about it. This thing of poverty and the handicapping of people because they don = t have the opportunity. The enormous gap in wages B I heard a talk from a Lynchburg college pr ofessor who said that there are CEO = s

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SRC -10 Morland, page 266 in industries that are making four hundred to five hundred times as much as their workers, and this happens nowhere else in Europe or anywhere else. P: Even Japan. M: Even Japan, that = s right. We = ve got to close that gap. I think a democracy = s always in the making and I know that our children will take up the banners as they have and work toward that end. P: As you pass the baton over to this next generation and beyond, and reflect back on your own efforts through that time, through the time from really the 1930s to the 1990s and beyond, what are some of the greatest disappointments you had dur ing those years? We talked about the great victories, the 1954 Supreme Cour t decision and many of your personal battles that you were delighted with here in Lynchburg and in the state and beyond. Amidst those achievements, what were some disappointments that you wish had been reversed? M: I = m not sure whether this would be a disappointment or naivete that I have. We thought the battle was won and that society would be open and that peopl e would move and that with the elimination of forced racial segregation, we would sort of get rid of our problems. I was in Hong Kong in 1966, 1967 and didn = t hear about the riots at Watts in California or the burning of some of the cities while I was over there. I came back and I reme mber I spoke to a group of Black ministers and I told them that we are now in an area where we begi n to realize that all people are really basically the same, we all carry the same genes except fo r a few stray ones. We are now moving toward a time of equal opportunity and then there was a time for questions. One of the ministers on the front row raised his hand and said yes, what have you got to say? He said I sat listening to you and I just said to myself A bull, that = s not so @ . That took me back. I realized that we were either naive or not really seeing how much more needed to be done, particularly in the area of prejudice which

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SRC -10 Morland, page 267 is so [difficult]. You can change the law, and we = ve learned in sociology and anthropology if you want to change attitudes change actions, and I = d assumed that if we changed people actions then their prejudices would disappear, but it is not quite that simple. So that = s been a disappointment, but it was probably a naivete or unrealistic assumption on my part. P: Given that whatever we describe it, naive or disappointing, are there anything that you could think of that you would have done differently? Particularly with respect to the racial issue as you look back, or should have been done not just by you but others as well? M: Of course, I think the Plessy v. Ferguson 1896 decision was a tragedy. It promoted segregation. I grew up in a city where everything was s egregated, even the elevators up and down were segregated. You just never saw people of B and Birmingham was made up of 40 percent Blacks and 60 percent Whites when I was there B but you never saw any Black who had education, who had good linguistic skills or the like, and I think that held us back and I give great credit to Thurgood Marshall and those crusaders in the cour ts that Jack Greenberg write about as getting a lot of that changed. Would it be done differently? I don = t know. I don = t think I would have changed... I probably could = ve moved more, but I was very fortunate in having a family and a church and especially a college that would permit to be an activist in the area. I should have been more alert to the bigger difficulty that we have and when something like The Bell Curve can still come out by Herrnstein B who was the other, Murray I think B and when they can say we classify people by race according to race they say they = re in, and then they proceed to make genetic differences in the basis of intelligence. [Tha t] a book like that can still be published is really unbelievable at this time. P: Echoes of Audrey Shuey?

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SRC -10 Morland, page 268 M: [Laugh] That king of book had a lot more influence on Audrey Shuey because one thing Audrey Shuey didn = t do as I said before B unlike Henry Garrett B she never allowed her name or her ability to speak, her ability to write, ever to be taken over by the White Citizens Council or by others. But yet, it was a book that was very troubling to the conclusions that she came to. P: I = ve sat with you many hours now to talk about the wonderful things you = ve done, the faithfulness you = ve held why you did them, and your commitment resolute, stance you = ve taken and so forth, and I think back of where you came from. Although you attribute lots of your insight, change and commitment comes from the YMCA experience, the Christian student movement, your genteel family B I think it = s fair to call your family was more genteel than the more virulent racist family you could find in Huntsville and Birmingham... M: Oh yes, almost all of the families were. P: You give great tribute to them for making you the way you are. But I see a person who was in addition to those favorable conditions, your mo ther died and yet you grew and went to school, became a high achiever. You worked hard in college and were again a high achiever. You grew away from White supremacy early on while Whit e supremacy was everywhere around you in every crevice of the culture. You t ook on careers early on. You went to famous schools and you were associated with very notable academics and religious and humanitarian figures. You came to know many people who occupied important roles in c hanging our history and making our country better, they accepted you, drew you in. Amazingly you completed a PhD in two years with a year of fieldwork, unheard of in so many graduate circles, and you spent a half a century or more in a productive and illustrious career. And all the wa y along the line, you showed commitment to these good values and this sense of fairness, this commitment to good and reliable work such as scholarship.

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SRC -10 Morland, page 269 M: You = re very generous. P: This is the person I saw. There were fewer rewards while you did have these supports and you = ve tried to explain to me a little bit about why you were able to achieve these things with a sense of confidence that not everybody enjoys to move into these fast circles that I = ve been describing and so forth. Maybe you wouldn = t agree with me, but many who hear or read this conversation between us will see this life as a very remarkable one, and they may wonder how might we replicate this kind of life in subsequent generations. Do you think you could help them by explaining it. Just try, as a social scientist or as a religious person or as even an ethicist or some other way. How do you explain those wonderful turn of events. M: In my view, there were many persons who we re at work in this area positively, and we encouraged one another in the Southern Regional Council. My education at both Yale Divinity School and the graduate school at the University of North Ca rolina, there were remarkable individuals and teachers who would show the way and who had absolutely tremendous influence. I think we = re all different. Some like to stay in the backgr ound, some feel that they need to get out and demonstrate and march, and others want to cha llenge the system through the legalities of the courts and the like, and I think there are many avenues for people. But it seems to me that if we look at basic fundamental American values, we s ee an emphasis on the worth of every individual. Everybody should be able to vote, everybody should have an equal opportunity and that = s often time where poverty gets in the way and people have a lot to overcome in that sense. I don = t know that I could have done more than I did, probably I coul d, but I could see in the mill village children, for example, those that really didn = t have much of a chance. I just think if we as Americans can really look at our basic core values that come fr om many different extremes of life (because we are a nation of immigrants as we = ve often said) but I think if we put together a way of life that is quite

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SRC -10 Morland, page 270 special... And yet there are people who take adv antage of it. I was mentioning the capitalistic system does produce, it doesn = t distribute too well, and its fruits are enjoyed much more by some than by others and I think that there = s a lot of work that needs to be done, and maybe it would take a lot more courage to go up against say some of the CEO positions or the people who have special privileges now than it was for those of us in the civil rights movement. P: Have we left anything unsaid. M: [Laugh]. Oh Ed, I could have listened to you for two or three days. I think your life has been fascinating and I like that. But certainly, I = ve been given a rare opportunity. For me, I = d forgotten so many of these things. I downplayed them and you brought them all back to life and I will always be appreciative for that, and so will Ma rgaret and our daughter s and grandchildren. P: Thank you, Ken Morland, for these rich hour s of memories and observations about your life and times. M: Thank you. [End of interview]