Supplement to Gazette: Legislative...
 Statutory Rules and Orders No....

Title: Saint Vincent government gazette
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00077473/00755
 Material Information
Title: Saint Vincent government gazette
Alternate Title: Government gazette
St. Vincent government gazette
Physical Description: v. : ; 35 cm.
Language: English
Creator: Saint Vincent
Publisher: G.P.O.
Place of Publication: Kingstown, St. Vincent
Kingstown St. Vincent
Publication Date: April 6, 1965
Frequency: weekly
Subject: Gazettes -- Periodicals -- Saint Vincent   ( lcsh )
Genre: federal government publication   ( marcgt )
legislation   ( marcgt )
periodical   ( marcgt )
Spatial Coverage: Saint Vincent and the Grenadines -- Saint Vincent
Dates or Sequential Designation: v. 1, no. 1 (1868)-v. 112, no. 48 (Tues., 23 Oct. 1979)
General Note: Description based on: Vol. 111, no. 1 (Tues., 3 Jan. 1978); title from caption.
General Note: Supplements which accompany some numbers contain extraordinary issues, ordinances, statutory rules of order, etc.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00077473
Volume ID: VID00755
Source Institution: University of Florida
Holding Location: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: oclc - 19844741
lccn - sn 89018505
 Related Items
Succeeded by: Government gazette

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    Supplement to Gazette: Legislative Council Proceedings and Debates (Hansard) in the Second Session (1961) held on 12th, 1961
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    Statutory Rules and Orders No. 8: The Motor Vehicles and Road Traffic (Amendment) Regulations, 1965
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Full Text



VLblt.ihtl by a tt th i tg.

VOL. 98.] SAINT VINCENT, TUESDAY, 6 APRIL, 1965. [No. 21.


No. 84.


The undermentioned persons have
been appointed members of the Prison
Visiting Committee for the year 1965
under the provisions of Rule 3 of the St.
Vincent Prison Rules, 1945 (S.R. & 0.
No. 39 of 1945) :-
V. D. ARCHER, Esq., M.B.E.
D. E. FRANK, Esq.
Magistrate District 1-Visiting
The Matron, Colonial Hospital.
Public Assistance & Probation Offi-
6th April, 1965.

No. 85.

His Honour the Administrator has
been pleased to re-appoint the following
persons as members of the Air Transport
Licensing Authority for the Territory
for a further period of two years with
effect from Ist April, 1965:-
The tHonourable the Attorney Gen-
eral (Chairman),
C. L. SrR&TT, Esq.,
D. G. MURRAY, Esq.,
The Permanent Secretary, Ministry
for Communications and Works
6th Aipril, 1965.
(C.W. 354.)

No. 86.

Mr. T. M. VELOX as Postmaster,
General Post Office, with effect from 1st
April, 1966, an until further notice.
6th April, 196g
(P.F. 240.)


P2/ 769r
' /^-^^

84 SAINT VINCENT, TUESDAY, 6 APRIL, 1965.-(No. 21.)

No. 87.

General Post Office, has been granted
360 days vacation leave with effect from
1st April, 1965.
6th April, 1965.
(P.F. 180.)

No. 88.


The Secretariat,
Regional Council of
Two Mile Hill,
St. Michael,
26th March, 1965.
The first meeting of the East Carib-
bean Currency Authority was held
today at the Headquarters of the
Regional Council of Ministers at Sher-
bourne, St. Michael.
The meeting was opened by His
Excellency the Governor of Barbados
Sir JOHN STOW who is the Chairman of
the Regional Council.
The members of the Authority are
Mr. H. A. C. THOMAS (nominated by
the Government of Barbados represent-
ing Barbados); Mr. W. A. KELSICK
(nominated by the Government of St.
Kitts representing Antigua, Montserrat
and St. Kitts); Mr. MAURICE SALES
MIQUELLE, C.B.E. (nominated by the
Government of St. Lucia and represent-
ing St. Lucia, Dominica and St. Vin-
cent) ; and Mr. D. W. SPIERS of the Bank
of England who has been appointed by
the Regional Council of Ministers as
Managing Director.
The Authority elected Mr. H. A. C.
TIOMAS as Chairman. They discussed,
among other matters:-
(a) arrangements for the printing
and shipment of the new currency
(b) The question of temporary ac-
commodation in Bridgetown pend-
ing the completion of their per-
manent accommodation in the
new Financial Building;
(c) the recruitment of staff.
They agreed to meet again in Barba-
dos in May.
Chief Minister's Office,
Saint Vincent,
West Indies.
6th April, 1965.

No. 89.

With reference to Gazette Notice
No. 14 of 12th January, 1965, Mr. C. W.
ITON, Inspector of Taxes, Inland Rev-
enue Department, resumed duty on 1st
April, 1965.
6th April, 1965.
(P.F. 174 II.)

No. 90.

Copies of the Legislative Council
Proceedings and Debates (Hansard) in
the Second Session (1961) held on 12th
October, 1961, which may be seen at
Government Office, the Kingstown Li-
brary, and at all Revenue Offices, are
published with this issue of the Gazette.
6th April, 1965.

No. 91.

The following Document is published
with this issue of the Gazette:-
S.R. & O. No. 8.-The Motor Vehicles
and Road Traffic (Amendment)
Regulations, 1965.
(Secretariat 155 (C).)
6th April, 1965.

No. 92

Under the Bank Holidays Ordinance,
Friday the 16th April, 1965 (Good Fri-
day), and Monday 19th April, 1965
(Easter Monday), being Bank Holidays,
all Public Offices will be closed on those
6th April, 1965.

No. 93.


The post is pensionable, but appoint-
ment (non-pensionable) may be on con-
tract for a period of 3 years in the first
instance. The officer will be subject to
the Colonial Regulations and local Gen-
eral Orders for the time being in force
in so far as they are applicable. The
Appointment will be subject to medical


fitness. The successful candidate will
be required to assume duty in May,

The salary is in the scale of $3,348 X
$144-$3,924 X $180-$5,004 X $240
-$5,484. The candidate may be ap-
pointed at a point in the scale commen-
surate with her qualifications and expe-

Applicants should possess a Degree
of a University within the British Com-

Quarters are not provided.

Free passage to St. Vincent will be

Government Officers are liable to tax-
ation imposed by local legislation.
Applications giving full particulars,
qualifications and experience of the ap-
plicant, and accompanied Ly three tes-
timonials (which wid not be returned)
should be addressed to the Chief Secre-
tary, St. Vincent, and should reach him
not later than 15th April, 1965.

By Command,

Chief Secretary.

6th April, 1965.



Courses for Training of Craft
Instructors in India, 1965

The Government of India have in-
vited applications for the award of
bursaries, tenable in India for the
training of Craft Instructors.
2. The bursaries will be of 9 months
duration and will commence on 1st
November, 1965.
3. Applicants should be between
20 and 40 years of age, and should be
matriculates. They should also have

a knowledge of the trades which they
choose. Preference will be given to
Diploma / Certificate holders and / or
those employed as supervisors or

4. Trades taught are: Blacksmith,
Draughtsman (Civil & Mech.), Electri-
cians, Grinder, Machinists, Fitter,
Mechanic Instrument, Mechanics
Motor, Moulder, Sheet metal worker,
Carpenter, Pattern-Maker, Turner,
Welder, Woodworker, Cutting and
Tailoring, Hand-weaving, Linesman
and wireman, Manufacturing of foot-
wear, Manufacturing of leather goods,
Embroidery and Needlework (for
women only).

5. Each Bursary covers expenses of
maintenance, tuition, examination,
books and certain medical fees. The
Government of India will not pay the
fare from and to the home country of
the Bursar.

6. A Bursar is expected to return to
his own country after the completion of
the course.

7. Candidates who wish to be con-
sidered for an award must submit one
copy of the prescribed application
form duly completed together with sup-
porting documents to the Education
Officer, Education Department, not
later than 15th April, 1965.

Education Officer.
20th March, 1965.


The Oxford and Cambridge Colleges
have decided to enter the U.C.C.A.
scheme for 1966. Applications for
admission to these institutions in 1966
must be submitted, therefore, on
U.C.C.A. forms in time to reach the
Secretary for Student Affairs in Lon-
don, not later than 1st October, 1965.
2. Where a candidate for Oxford
and Cambridge wishes to apply also for
admission to other Universities, these
must be included on the same applica-
tion form.
Education Officer.
27th March, 1965.

86 SAINT VINCENT, TUESDAY, 6 APRIL, 1965.-(No. 21.)


The places at which copies of the preliminary lists of electors and revision
notices for the Electoral Districts of North Leeward, South Leeward, Kings-
town, West St. George, East St. George, South Windward, Central Windward,
North Windward and the Grenadines may be seen are as follows:-

Polling Place Address

No. 1 (a) Arrowroot Factory Building Richmond Vale
(b) Land Settlement Office Fitz Hughes
No. 2 (a) Chateaubelair Police Station Chateaubelair
(b) Chateaubelair Post Office Chateaubelair
No. 3 (a) Oneil Charles' Shop Sharpes
(b) Cecil McKenzie's Shop Petit Bordel
No. 4 (a) George Delpeche's Shop Rose Bank
(b) Leo Roberts' Shop Rose Bank
No. 5 (a) Troumaca Government School Troumaca
(b) Troumaca Post Office Troumaca
No. 6 (a) Rose Hall Post Office Rose Hall
(b) Gerald Robertson's Shop Rose Hall
No. 7 (a) Cumberland Post Office Westwood
(b) Cecil Charles' Shop Coulls Hill
No. 8 (a) Spring Village Post Office Spring Village
(b) Albert Morris' Shop Morne Garu
No. 9 (a) Barrouallie Post Office Barrouallie
(b) Barrouallie Police Station Barrouallie





No. 1 (a) Reginald Ash's Shop
(b) Selwyn, Connell's, Shop
No. 2 (a) Errey Douglas' Shop
(b) Beryl Hadaway's Shop
No. 3 (a) Post Office
(b) Town Hall
No. 4 (a) Harris Jackson's Shop
(b) Oclavia Jessop's Shop
No. 5 (a) Benjamin Penniston's Shop
(b) Post Office
No. 6 (a) Dispensary
(b) Lennie Slater's Shop
No. 7 (a) Mrs. Marie Harry's Shop
(b) Archie Samuel's Shop
No. 8 (a) Post Offiet,
(b) Police Station'
No. 9 (a) Hugh Cain's Shop
(b) Rupert Jack's Shop
No, 10 (a) Dispensary
fb) Percy Robertson's Shop,

Buccament Bay
Btccament Bay
New Penniston
Rillan Hill
Clare Valley
Camden Park
Camden Park

SAINT VINCENT, TUESDAY, 6 APRIL, 1965.-(No. 21.) 87


Polling Place Address

No. 1 (a) Brisbane's Showroom
(b) Mr. N. R. Cummings' Residence
No. 2 (a) Police Headquarters
(b) Gonsalves' Shop

No. 3 (a)
No. 4 (a)

Mr. George Alexander's Shop
The Court House
Mr. Walton Martin's Shop
Mr. Lawrence Davidson's Barber Shop

No. 5 (a) Sanitary Department
(b) Mr. Hamilton Palmer's Shop

No. 6 (a)
No. 7 (a)
No. 8 (a)
No. 9 (a)
No. 10 (a)
No. 1 (a)

Mr. Cyril Frank's Shop
Telephone Booth
Mr. Charles Anderson's Shop
Mr. Sydney Deane's Shop
Providence's Shop
Mr. Lawrence Clarke's Shop
Miss Olga Lynch's Shop
Mr. John A!len's Shop
Mr. Bassie Ferdinand's Shop
Mrs:. Elaine Hunte's Shop
Po:,t OAli; s
Miss Alice Sandy's Shop

No. 32 (a) Post Office
(b) Venner's Shop

Richmond Hill
McKies Hill
Long Lane Lower
Paul's Lot
Hospital Road
Bay Street
Rose Place
New Montrose
Colonial Hospital
New Montrose
Walker Piece
Old Montrose
Green Hill
New Town
Kingstown Park
Kingstown Park
Lower Edinboro
Lowmans Hill
Lowmans Hill


Division Place Address

No. 1 (a)
No. 2 (a)
No. 3 (a)
No. 4 (a)
No. 5 (a)
No. 6 (a)
No. 7 (a)
No. 8 (a)
No. 9 (a)
No. 10 (a)
No. 11 (a)
No. 12 (a)

Gomea Post Office
James Plato's Shop
Calvin Gibson's Shop
Beresford CraigQ's Shop
Phillip Little's Shop
Owen Adams' Shop
Joseph Tyrell's Shop
Arnos Vale P.O.
Mrs. Greaves' Shop
Mr. Clarke's Shop
Mrs. Bonadie's Shop
Mrs. Zola Joyette's Shop
Ronald Llewellyn's Shop
Mr. Eric Browne's Shop
Mr. Bertram DeRoche's Shop
Mr. Alexander's Shop
Mrs. Iris Billinghurst's Shop
Telefunken Centre
Hadaway's Tailor Shop
Mr. Ephraim Neptune's Shop
-Mr. Richards' Shop
Mr. Glynn's Shop
Mr. Dudley Clarke's Shop
Sion Hill P.O.

Cane Hall
Arnos Vale
Dorsetshire Iill
Miller's Gate
Murray's Village
,lurray's Village
Sion Hill
Richmond Hill
Granby Street
Kingstown Hill
Kingstown Hill
Sion Hill
Sion Hill
Sion Hill

88 SAINT VINCENT, TUESDAY, 6 APRIL, 1965.-(No. 21.)


Polling Place Address

No. 1 (a) Mrs. Claudina De Caul's Shop
(b) Mr. Alfred Clarke's Shop
No. 2 (a) Mr. Vincent Thomas' Shop
(b) Mr. Henry Payne's Shop
No. 3 (a) Mr. William A. Falby's Shop
(b) Mrs. Irena Nelson's Shop.
No. 4 (a) The Post Office
(b) The Medical Clinic
No. 5 (a) Mr. Alfred Joslyn's Shop
(b) Mr. John Govia's Shop
No. 6 (a) Mrs. Alma Fraser's Shop
(b) Mr. Daniel Victory's-Shop
No. 7 (a) Mr. Cecil Charles' Shop
(b) Mr. Milton Morgan's Shop
No. 8 (a) Mrs. Clementina Viera's Shop
(b) Mr. Rufus Pemberton's Shop
No. 9 (a) Calliaqua Police Station
(b) Calliaqua Town Hall
No. 10 (a) The Telephone Pole near to
Mrs. Hunte's Shop
(b) The Wall of Mr. Roache's House
No. 11 (a) Mr. John Samuel's Shop
(b) Mr. Bertram King's Shop

Mt. Pleasant
Calder Ridge
Victoria Village
Fairburn Pasture
Rose Cottage

Arnos Vale


Polling Place Address

No. 1 (a)
No. 2 (a)
No. 3 (a)
No. 4 (a)
No. 5 (a)
No. 6 (a)
No. 7 (a)
No. 8 (a)

No. 9 (a)
No. 10 (a)
No. 11 (4)
No. 12 (a)

Jerome Shearman's Shop,
Greaves Woodley's Shop
Mrs. Margaret Shortte's Shop
Henry Daniel's Shop
George Goodluck's Shop
Police Station
Calvin Jackson's Shop
Edward John's Shop
Cecil Browne's Shop
Leon Harry's Shop
Police Station
Vernon Bennett's Shop
Mrs, Albertha Davis' Shop
James L. C. Primus' Shop
Norman Bacchus' Shop
Ge, oge Charles' Shop

Hubert DaSilva's Shop
Mrs. Velma B0rovihe's Shbp
Darrell Richardson's Shop
Mrs, Sarah Lewis' Shop
-rs.. Clara David's Shop
Post Office
Mrs. Vivian DaSilva's Shop
Alolphus Clarke's Shop

Lowmans Windward
Hadley's Village
New Prospect
New Prospect
Richland Park
Richland Park
Richland Park
La Croix
La Croix

-SAINT-VINCENT, TUESDAY, 6 APRIL, 1965.-(No. 21.) 89





No. 1 (a) The Post Office
(b) Miss Isabelle DeFreitas' Shop
No. 2 (a) Mr. Edmund Williams' Shop
(b) Mi. William Brewster's Shop
No. 3 (a) Mr. Alban Pereira's Shop
(b) Mr. Timson Grant's Shop
No. 4 (a) The Post Office
(b) Mr. Patrick DeFreitas' Shop
No. 5 (a) The Police Station
(b) rkl. Westmore King's Shop
No A (a) Mr. Roy King's Shop
(b) MNI. Glenson Toby's Shop

No. 7 (a)
No. 8 (a)
No. 9 (a)

Mr. Albert Neverson's Shop
Mr. George Innis' Shop
Mr. Thomas John's Shop
Mr. Lawrence Jack's Shop
Mr. Theophilus Homer's Shop
Mr. Edmund Baptiste's Shop

South Rivers
South Rivers
Park Hill
Park Hill
Mt. Greenan
New Grounas
Higher Lowmans
Higher Lowmans


Polling Place Address

No. 1 (a)

Pay House
Mr. Ferdinand Baptiste's Shop

Fancy Estate

No. 2 (a) Mr. William Iloyte's Shop
(b) Mr. Charles Child's Shop

No. 3 (a) Police Station
(b) Post Office

No. 4 (a) Mrs. Hilda Williams' Shop
(b) Estate Shop

No. 5

(a) Mr. Edmund Bailey's Shop
(b) Miss Martha Humphrey's Shop

No. 6 (a) Mr. Owen Sutherland's Shop

(b) Mr. George Forde's Shop

No. 7 (a) Mr. Irvin Shoy's Shop
(b) Mr. Jonathan..Spring's Shop
No. 8 (a) Mr. George Huggins' Shop
(b) Mrs. Ruth Woods Shop

Sandy Bay
Sandy Bay

Sandy Bay
Sandyi Bay
Orange. Hill
Langley Park
Chapman's Village

Mt. Bentinek Bay
Mt. Bentinck



No. 9 (a)

Police Station
Revenue Office

No. 10 (a) Mr. Edwin Laynes' Store
(b) Mrs. Ertris Liverpool's Shop



90 SAINT VINCENT, TUESDAY, 6 APRIL, 1965.-(No. 21.)




No. 1 (a) The Police Station

(b) Casualty Hospital

No. 2 (a)
No. S (a)

Daniel Iarris' Shop
Anna Phillips' Shop
Mrs. Dolly Simmons' Shop
Mr. Con Wallace's Shop

No. 4 (a) The Post Office
(b) Louis Ollivierre's Shop
No. 5 (a) Government School Building
(b) Estate Shop
No. 6 (a) The Police Station
(b) Mr. Simeon Pompey's Shop
No. 7 (a) Mayreau Government School
(b) Estate Shop
No. 8 (a) Revenue Office
(b) Mrs. Annie Adams' Shop
No. 9 (a) The Police Station
(b) Government School

Port Elizabeth,
Port Elizabeth,
Lower Bay
Paget Farm
La Pompe
Clifton, Union Island
Clifton, Union Island
Supervisor of Elections.


NO. 17 OF 1951.


The Magistrate of the Second District
will hold a Special Session for the pur-
pose of hearing Appeals, of which due
Notice has been given, against Assess-
ment made by the Clerk of the under-
mentioned Urban District at the time
and place stated hereunder.

CALLIAQUA: On Tuesday 13th April,
1965, at 10.00 a.m.


Magistrates' Office,
St. Vincept,
29th March, 1965.



Notice is hereby given that in accord-
ance with S.R. & O. No. 21 of 1949 as
amended by S.R. & O. No. 60 of 1954
of the Chateaubelair Town Board
(Election of Members) By-Laws, the
Clerk of the Chateaubelair Town Board
will be in attendance at the Chateau-
belair Po~icf Station on Thursday, 8th
April 1965, from 10.00 a.m. to 2.00 p.m.
to receive Nominations for Election of
o'c Member to serve for the current
term ending 31st December, 1966, con-
sequent on the occurrence of a vacancy
on the Council due to the death of Mr.
Charles Patterson, on 19th March, 1965.
Should a Poll be required it will be
taken at the Chateaubelair Police Sta-
tion on Thursday, 15th April 1965 from
9.00 a.m. to 12 noon and from 1.00 p.m.
to 5.30 p.m.
The Official list of Electors for the
Polling Division can be seen at the office
of the Town Board, Chateaubelair.

Clerk & Returning Officer.
30th March, 1965.




[ Price 30 cents. ]





The Honourable Legislative Council met at 10.00 o'clock this


MR. SPEAKER in the Chair. \
Hon. N. S. NANTON.


Chief Minister and Minister of Finance:
HoN. E. T. JOSHUA .. ..... Member for Central Windward
Minister for Communications, Works and Labour:
HON. C. L. TANNIS ... Member for the Grenadines
Minister' for Trade and Production:
HON. H. A. HAYNEs ...... Member for West St. George
Minister for Social Services and Education:
HON. S. E. SLATER ..... Member for North Leeward
Member without Portfolio:
HON. MRS. I. I. JOSHUA ..... ...... Member for North Windward

Attorney General:

,, A. C. G. ALLEN

,, R. M. CATO..


.... Member for South Leeward
...... Member for South Windward
..First Nominated Member
..... Member for Kingstown,
(Deputy Speaker).
Member for East St. George, (Leader
of the Opposition)
... Second Nominated Member.

1st Sitting



553 L

Thursday, 12th October, 1961


The Minutes of the Sitting of the
Council held on 11th August, 1961 were

MR. SPEAKER: Minutes of the Sittings
of 14th September.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, there
is just one point which occurs to me.
In noting the division to the amend-
ment the votes for are stated and the
votes against and the Speaker's casting
vote is listed with those against. I don't
think that that is constitutionally prop-
er. I think the votes should be recorded
separately and the Speaker's by itself.

MR. SPEAKER: That can be rectified.
The Minutes of the Sitting of the
Council held on 14th September, 1961
were accordingly confirmed.


MR. SPEAKER: Honourable Memoers,
before proceeding with matters that will
be fully dealt with today, there seems
to have been a considerable amount of
misunderstanding on a procedural point
as regards the Speaker's casting vote
and I would like to say quite frankly
that I have checked and rechecked and
May's Parliamentary Practice when
boiled down says in reality that the
Speaker's vote should be so cast as to
preserve the status in quo and in so
doing in preserving the status in quo
the matter could be subsequently dis-
cussed if necessary. The only way in
which the status in quo could possibly
be preserved would be if the Speaker
did not vote but if he votes one way or
the other the status in quo cannot be
preserved. It appears to me as though
the Speaker's position is one in which
in dealing with the casting vote that it
appears that he is to preserve the status
in quo and this matter of voting con-

Speaker's Casting vote

trary to the government attitude then
I would be inclined to think that it
would be more disturbing in preserving
the status in quo and that I believe sums
up what the position is. It is more or
less a constitutional point more than one
that is enumerated very precisely in the
rules laid down in May's Parliamentary
Practice and it is on the basis of not
disturbing the status in quo that I util-
ised my casting vote in the way in which
I did.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, the
last thing I would like to do at this stage
is to enter into any controversy on this
point but I took the trouble to draw the
Speaker's attention to a matter which
I consider to be of the utmost and great-
est public interest in that a press release
had been made over the signature of the
Chief Minister which made a statement
that I consider td be constitutionally
incorrect and it is in order to get a pre-
cise and definite ruling on this point
that I took the trouble to write Mr.
Speaker to draw his attention to this
publication. The point which you have
made dealing with the preservation of
the status in quo is one that has been
established by a long line of precedents.
If you were to introduce a motion that
the meetings of this Honourable House
should be moved from here and held at
the Police Station and that motion
ended in a tie, one side voting against
moving, then the point raised by you,
Mr. Speaker, with the greatest respect,
arises and you would preserve the status
in quo in casting a vote in keeping with
that view. This is the position where
it has been definitely stated in the press
release that the Speaker is obliged to
vote for the Government. My conten-
tion is that constitutionally that is high-
ly and entirely incorrect. There is no
such ruling, you will search through
May's from the first page to the very
last page and you will find no such
thing. There are a hundred and one

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Speaker's Casting vote

instances where it is not a matter of
preserving any status in quo, a matter
which comes up afresh and I will give
you the particular instance to which
reference was made was freedom of
movement, a fresh matter coming up
and there was no question cf a status
in quo and the matter arises what is
the duty of the Speaker in such circum-
stances and my contention is that the
Speaker in that case rrn in all other
cases is entitled to vote entirely in hiN
discretion and he is not fettered in any
way by Government and that is the
point that I wish Mr. Speaker to

HoN. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members, the Member for East
St. George has a very special relish of
attacking the Chief Minister on points
that he cannot substantiate. He made
a bold statement here that the Speaker
is bound to vote. The question is all
we have on record is the constitutional
instrument governing this House, Pro-
cedure of Parliamentary Institutions in
St. Vincent and I refer to the St. Vin-
cent Royal Instructions Windward Is-
lands and Leeward Islands Courts Order
in Council, Windward Islands and Lee-
ward Islands Constitutional Instrument
Section 37 of it, this is my guide and
not the guide stated in any release that
the Speaker was bound to vote with the
Government. It says: "All questions
proposed for decision in the Legislative
Council shall be determined by a maj-
ority of the votes of the members present
and voting: provided that the person
presiding (which is you, Mr. Sneaker),
shall not vote unless on any question
the vote are equally divided, in which
case he shall have and exercise a casting
vote. This was my guide and I would
like the Honourable Member for St.
George East could not bring any release
bere in which it was said that the
Speaker was bound to vote for the Gov-

Speaker's Casting Vote

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, may
I claim the right, I have been challenged
to produce a document, I am insisting
on that right, that is the constitutional
practice in every Commonwealth Parlia-
ment, I claim the right to read it and
read it very slowly so that the Chief
Minister can recollect what he stated
and to show him how irrelevant it is
with reference to what he just quoted
in the Order in Council.

MR. SPEAKER: I think the Honourable
Member would realize it is relevant, but
it is a question of accuracy. Relevance
is one thing accuracy is another.

HoN. R. M. CATO: Let me proceed.
May I proceed to read it, Mr. Speaker,
to show completely accurate and com-
pletely relevant

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: I rise to clarify
that point, are we going to have the

MR. SPEAKER: We are not debating it
for the whole day, a thing has been
'specifically stated and I think that the
Honourable Member for East St. George
is entitled to produce a document irres-
pective of whether it was accurately
printed or not.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, the
Honourable the Chief Minister might as
well make up his mind right here and
now that he is not going to stifle debate
on any matter so long as I am in the
House. I know my constitutional rights
and I am going to insist on them at
every turn and he's going to sit down
and take it.

MR. SPEAKER: Would the Honourable

HON. R. M. CATO: This is the Gov-
ernment newspaper, Mr. Speaker, the

Thursday, 12th October; 1961

Speaker's Casting vote

"Challenge" of September 15th and in it
on page 2 in the middle of the sheet is
a press release over the signature of
E. Theodore Joshua, Chief Minister. I'm
not going to burden you with the whole
release, Mr. Speaker, thousands of people
in St. Vincent and the Windward Islands
heard this release over the Windward
Islands Broadcasting Station the Mon-
day before this publication and then
again saw it in this publication. "The
two Nominated Members in the House
voted with the Opposition on the amend-
ment and a tie resulted. The Speaker
used his casting vote as he was obliged
to do under the Constitution and the
amendment was lost." May I repeat,
Mr. Speaker, "The Speaker used his
casting vote as he was obliged to do and
the amendment was lost."

MR. SPEAKER: In all fairness, the Hon-
ourable Member for East St. George will
realize that in a matter of that nature
the question of using a casting vote,
there is nothing there stated that he
used it and was compelled to use it for
and on behalf of the Government. He
used it as he was obliged to do. That's
perfectly correct, he used his casting
vote and he was compelled to do it.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Very ambiguous

MR. SPEAKER: Any latent ambiguity..

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I
have the highest regard for your office
and I see that you are quite impartial
and for the short time I want to com-
pliment you but it appears to me that
the Government having voted you here,
that's where it is ambiguous, thought
that you were their speaker and not the
Speaker of the House, that's the insinu-

MR. SPEAKER: I don't think you need
go into that. The Honourable Member
for South Leeward realizes that the devil

Notices of Motions & Questions

himself knoweth not the thought of

HON. H. F. YOUNG: (inaudible)


HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I beg
to give notice of the following motion:

BE IT RESOLVED that steps be taken
by Government to have the debates
of this Honourable House recorded for
transmission over the Windward Is-
lands Broadcasting Station and such
other stations as would be available
for the benefit of the people of St.
Vincent and the Grenadines.

Ma. SPEAKER: Any other motions, Hon-
ourable Members?


HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, sir,
I beg to give notice of the following

Will the Minister for Education and
Social Services please state the plans
of Government if any for the re-
establishment of the Fair Hall Ap-
proved Home for Boys?

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, I beg
to give notice of the following questions:

Will the Minister for Communica-
tions and Works please state what
steps are being taken, if any, to relieve
the water shortage being experienced
by citizens throughout East St. George
even in periods of heavy rainfall?

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Is that a question?

HON. R. M. CATO: You don't object to
my asking questions, do you? May I
proceed? I beg to give notice of the
following question:

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Papers Laid

Is the Minister for Communications
and Works aware that the road from
Glamorgan into McCarthy and En-
hams is closed to vehicular traffic on
rainy days and that the villagers are
having considerable difficulty in trans-
porting their crops?

Will the Minister undertake to in-
stitute even temporary repairs and/or
maintenance in order to relieve this


No Petitions were presented.


The following Members laid the Coun-
cil Papers indicated hereunder:--


Council Paper No. 16 of 1961: Report
of the Principal Auditor, Wind-
ward Islands on the Accounts of
the Government Savings Bank, St.
Vincent for the year ended 31st
December, 1959.

Council Paper No. 17 of 1961: Report
of the Accountant General for the
year 1959.


Council Paper No. 13 of 1961: Annual
Report of the Registrar of Co-
operative Societies for the year

Council Paper No. 18 of 1961: Market-
ing Board (Registration of Potato
Growers) Rules;

Council Paper No. 19 of 1961: Animal
(Diseases and Importation) Con-
trol (Amendment) Regulations.

Papers Laid


Council Paper No. 12 of 196i: Report
of the Lands and Surveys Depart-
ment for the year 1959.


Council Paper No. 14 of 1961: Annual
Report of the Treatment of Offen-
ders for the year 1959.

Council Paper No. 15 of 1961: Annual
Report on the treatment of Offen-
ders for the year 1960.


Council Paper No. 20 of 1961: Magis-
trates (Sittings of Courts) Order.

Council Paper No. 21 of 1961: Pen-
sionable Offices Order.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, I would
like your permission at this stage to say
that I am very pleased to see that the
Government has seen fit to adopt the
procedure which I recommended very
strongly when I suggested that the
papers should be laid by the relevant
Ministers instead of reverting to the
colonial practice of having the Attorney
General laying the papers.

MR. SPEAKER: I am sure-the Honour-
able Member realizes we are here to co-
operate with him.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, sir,
I would like to ask the Minister for
Trade and Production Council Paper
No. 18 Registration of Potato Grow-
ers to be nice enough as to bring this
as a debate in this House. I won't dis-
cuss it here now because here it is we
are asking poor people to register and
sign forms, to me it is killing the econ-
omy of the country. You can't market
the potato in the first instance, you've

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Papers Laid

got tied up and now you're going to put
a yoke around their neck.

MR. SPEAKER: I think the Honourable
Member will agree with me that the
proper procedure is to get a committee
appointed to consider it.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: That is what I
am asking because in the absence of a
proper Growers' Association the whole
Marketing Board is appointed.

MR. SPEAKER: I think the Government
will consider it.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: I would like the
comments to come from the Honourable
Minister for Trade and Production,
would he give us the opportunity to
bring a debate here. Would you get up
and give the House I mean be court-
eous and say whether you will do it or
not, it's your office. Mr. Speaker, please

MR. SPEAKER: It would be either in
the nature of a debate or a committee
or whatever Government finally decides.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: But Mr. Speaker,
sir, you as Chairman, it is not really for
you to say.

MR. SPEAKER: I am saying it is up to
them to give a decision but they are not
forced to do so.

HON. H. A. HAYNES: Mr. Speaker, if
this will satisfy the Honourable Member
for South Leeward, I would like to say
that the Government will consider it.


HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, I beg
leave to ask the following question
standing in my name:

Will the Chief Minister please state
what additional provisions have been

Papers Laid

made to meet expenditure in excess
of the Estimates for the year 1961 (if
any) for the period
1st January to 31st March, 1961 and
1st April to 30th June, 1961?

HoN. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members, the schedule circu-
lated will give a picture of the Supple-
mentary expenditure incurred for the
March and June Quarters of 1961. Most
of the

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, I ap-
pologise for having to interrupt the
Chief Minister. Could we have the an-
swers circulated?

(Hon. E. T. Joshua continues to read,
Hon. H. F. Young & R. M. Cato protest-

HoN. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, may I
have the cooperation of -
MR. SPEAKER: I think that after the
answers are read they are circulated
and any members has the opportunity
to ask a supplementary question, that
is the normal procedure adopted in the
HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, I wish
I could see among the procedures adopt-
ed in the past that it could be torn into
shreds and thrown into the wastepaper
basket. The procedure as I know it in
every democratic parliament is that the
answers are passed around to the mem-
bers while the relevant Minister is read-
ing his answer so that they can follow
it and at the end they can proceed with
the next step otherwise we will have to
wait until when he is finished and read
through the whole thing again especially
in the case of some Ministers who can't

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, I
cannot sit here a:nd allow the Honour-
able Member for East St. George, after

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Oral Answers

all, the Minister must realize that on
this side of the bench there are elected
representatives of the people and we
have a qualification basis, the qualifica-
tion of elected members of this Honour-
able House is that you must be able to
read and write. '

MR. SPEAKER: The questions should be
answered and then the answers handed
around to all Honourable Members.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker to
destroy the harmonious working of this
House if anyone can bring one volcano
I can bring ten volcanoes but I am warn-
ing you right here and now that the
Member for St. George East, this gallant
and learned member, is not going to
insult anybody in this House and get
away with it.

(Laughter from the Opposition

Oral Answers

MR. SPEAKER: Will you proceed, Mr.
Chief Minister with the reply.


Most of the additional provisions, as
you will observe, have been in respect
of Colonial Development & Welfare
Schemes, to provide authority, by
Special Warrant, to expend funds ap-
proved for the Schemes.

The Special Warrants were approved
by Finance Committee on 22nd Febru-
ary and 1st September, 1961, and the
Schedules of additional provision for
the ,two quarters are being prepared
for submission to the Legislature for

In the case of Ordinary Expendi-
ture compensatory savings from other
items have been quoted in every in-


March Quarter

Date of
Head Subject Amount Finance
$ Committee



Poultry Breeding Stock
Transport Allowances Relieving
Legal Expenses

32-D2549 Sandy Bay Housing Scheme
D2914 Hospital Development
D2940 School Building Programme
D3179 (A) Cane Farming Officer
D3691 Lnvironmental Sanitation
D4071 Training of E. C. Coombs in Meat
Inspection in Jamaica
D4071 Training of C. W. B. Coombs in Meat
Inspection in Jamaica

.. 360.00

S 300.00
S 600.00
- 400.00







Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Oral Answers

Oral Answers

Date of
Head Subject Amount Finance
$ Committee



Establishment of Cane Farmers
Rose Hall Clinic

June Quarter

9- (40) Janitor Technical School
2 .Uniform etc. Cadet Corps
10 Educational Tours for School Children ..
31 House Rent Canadian Technical
School Teacher
14- 6 Legal Expenses
16- 32 Compensation to Cane Farmers for
loss of Crops
18- 6 Maintenance of Prisoners in Police
26- 36 Construction of Stubbs Bridge
26- 47 Damage to Private Property Ratho
26- 48 Pipe Installation: Ottley Hall Prison
28 Contribution to E.C.F.I.
28- 29 Grant to Marketing Board
D3840 Sound Projector: Education Dept.
D4153 Feeder Roads: Fancy Road
D4671 Rural Water Supplies
D4717 School Building

HON. L. C. LATHAM: Mr. Speaker, we
have just got the answer. We crave
your patience for some time to read it.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Yes, because we
can't follow the Minister, he can only
rabble rouse, he can't read. Let's go
through it and ask supplementary ques-

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem-
ber for South Leeward should confine
himself to the matter. I have given him
a reasonable opportunity to check it and
see if any supplementary questions arise.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Yes, yes, yes, let us
check it. I see a big sum here, sir, Grant
to Marketing Board forty thousand
dollars. What's that,,the bad potatoes?
The starch lying in -factories? The
campaign or what? Forty thousand dol-
lars Marketing Board, what is that
for, sir?

MR. SPEAKER: I think the Honourable
Member would be good enough to ask
for some explanation.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Thank you very
much, sir, I would like some explanation.















Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Oral Answers

HoN. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, I also
thought that the Honourable Member
should address the House directly.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: I am subject to
the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, sir, I would
like some explanation on this forty
thousand dollars by the Marketing Board
and we will dig further. From my
knowledge, Mr. Speaker, being in the
government who formed and who was
responsible in bringing about the Mar-
keting Board, all backed by C.D. & W.
grants, I want to know where this extra
forty thousand dollars was spent and
why for potatoes, that's all I'm asking.
Mr. Speaker, would you like me to an-
swer the question for the Government
sir, so as not to waste time? Explana-
tion, subsidiary question
HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, would
the Honourable Member put a question
if he is putting a question, sir?
MR. SPEAKER: It is a matter which
comes under the department of the Hon-
ourable Chief Minister, I don't know
whether he would like to. deal with it.
Any member is entitled to one supple-
mentary question on any question put
on the Order Paper and the Marketing
Board forty thousand dollars will the
Honourable Finance Minister .ee if he
can elucidate it in some way?
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: The question of
the over production of potatoes, com-
pensation to the planters and farmers.
The government was compelled to enter
into sympathy with the over production
of crops over which they had no control
because.of the fact that the people pro-
duced and they could not tell them what
to plant therefore that sum was voted
to assist in that dilemma in which they
found themselves.
HON. HI F. YOUNG: Stubbs Bridge, Mr.
Speaker, seven thousand eight hundred
and fifty one dollars.

MR. SPEAKER: I think there has been
a ruling in this House about the Supple-
mentary Question under Section 21 of
the present Standing Rules and Orders,
t)l rules that we operate under- "A
Member may ask a (and the ruling was
that "a" meaning "one") supplementary
question for the purpose of further .eluci-
dating any .matter of fact regarding
which an answer has been given; but. a.
suppleentary question must not be
used to introduce matter not included in
the original question." In other words,
you are entitled to ask one supplemen-
tary question. The ruling ,of this House
before my time agrees that there is a
basis "a" means "one" because if there
were several it would state "some".

HoN. H. F. YOUNG: Alright, Mr. Speaker,
I would just ask Government to have
Finance Committee a little more often
because the expenditure of this island
demands that and not having all of
these bogus figures.

MR. SPEAKER: I don't think, the Hon-
ourable Meniber should use that lan-
How. H. F. YOUNG: Thank you very
A~N.. ,C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, I
wquld like tp make an observation on
thl statement made by the Honourable
Me beur about bpgus funds. The Fin-
ance Committee of this country of which
the Opposition forms part approved
theW..~.supplemen ary schedules. They
have alregty approved it, Mr. Speaker,
and it is nice to let the House remind
itself of the, fa4t that they are part and
parel .of voting this money and it is
so strange, Mr. Speaker, for the Hon-
ourable Member to come to this House
to question
MR. SPEAKER: Your suggestion is that
the word "bogus" would have to apply
to everyone.

Oral Answers

Thursday, 12th October,. 1961

Oral Answers

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, since
the Government voted three by three
even though we walk out they can still
pass! it.
HON. R: M.'CATO: Before we proceed
to the next question, Mr. Speaker, we
have here two long supplementary lists,
one marked March quarter and another
marked June quarter. May I ask in
future whether these supplementary
lists if it ever 'becomes necessary to
present them in this form that some
dates be put in so that we can see when
this money was acquired by Ministers
from the Government Treasury for the
use of particular projects mentioned
MR. SPEAKER: I can see the point you
are making but I can also see the other
point. All members of this House are
members of the Finance Committee and
would normally be cognisant of these
supplementary disbursements.
HON. R. M. CATO: May I with the
greatest respect state that these were
disbursments made before Ex. Co., I am
not going into the substance, Mr. Speak-
er, only with the greatest respect to
correct a point. These expenditures
were made by the Government Minis-
ters., At some subsequent date they
may, under pressure,, call a Finance
Committee meeting. What I am asking
for is that a date be put in on these.
They can't put March Quarter and June
Quarter and put no date upon it.

MR. SPEAKER: That should not present.
much difficulty. The Honourable Mem-
ber for East St. George is saying that
against the sum should be Written the
date, of Finance Committee approval.
But I honestly feel that the Hqihoqrable
Member will agree with me that these
detailed matters would be more fully
handled at Finance Committee. meetings
where a lot of documents are, readily:
available which are not available, here,

HON. R. M. CATO: I am laying the
foundation for my future work here and
now. They come here and they put
down first of September so much
expenditure; I want to know when that
money was spent, if it was spent in
January and you come with it in Fin-
ance Committee in September, I don't
want to have that at all.

MR. SPEAKER. I think the Honourable
Member missed my point. I am saying
that all the facts can be fully dealt with,
explored and re-explored at Finance
Committee before they say yes and any-
thing that is perhaps out of order at
Finance Committee decided on any
matter before coming here.

HoN. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, the
Honourable Member for East St. George
was. given all the. particulars, all the
schedules and dates of expenditure at
Finance Committee meeting Which- he

HON. R. M. CATO: I am not accepting
that, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: I think the Honourable
Member will agree that matters that
occur in Executive Council and Finance
Committee cannot be referred to and
should not be re-opened here .......

HON. R. M. CATO: AS the Minister is
seeking to do. May I ask a supplemen-
tary question now, Mr. Speaker, that we
have had all of this explanation?

MR. SPEAKER: One was asked already
by the Honourable Member for South

HON R. M. CATO: .......... Would
the Honourable the Chief Minister in-
form this House when it is proposed
to hold a Finance Committee meeting?

Oral Answers

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Oral Answers

MR SPEAKER:' That doesn't arise out
of chat question, it doesn't arise out of
a specific question here.
(Hon. R. M. Cato protests.)

MR. SPEAKER: Would the Honourable
Member for East St. George proceed?


Will the Chief Minister please state:

whether there has been a waiver
or rebate of Income Tax for Min-
isters of Government for the year

whether there is any precedent
for such waiver or rebate in any
territory of the West Indies;

the total amount of such waiver
or rebate in respect of each Min-
ister of Government?

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members -

There has been a waiver only in res-
pect of allowances drawn from Gov-
ernment Ministers in the year 1960,
not in respect of their other incomes.
(ii) With regard to precedent in the
other West Indian Territories: In St.
Kitts the first 100 of the allowance
paid to Ministers and other members
of the Legislative Council is exempt
.from Income Tax, while in the larger
Territories Ministers receive substan-
tial tax free allowances, for example
Travelling Allowance as
Ministers $2,400
Constituency Travelling- 1,200
Entertainment Allowance 960
Office Expenses 2,400

Total: $6,960

In Trinidad also tax free allowances
to Ministers amount to over $6,000.

Ministers' entertainment allowance
is taxable in St. Vincent and the only
tax free allowance in this territory is
the sum of $1,440 for travelling as Min-

(iii) The amounts involved are as
follows: ,
Chief Minister (Hon. E. T. Joshua),
& Minister for Social Services 1960
(Mrs. Ivy Joshua) $5,008.40

Minister for Trade and Production
'(Hon. H. A. Haynes) $3,000.00
Minister for Communications
and Works, 1960 (Hon. S. E.
Slater $1,058.15
HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker,' the
gist of the answer is embodied in -the
long rigmarole given here of tax free
allowances, that is not the answer to
the question, "I'm dealing directly with
income tax and it took the Chief, Min-
ister a long time to give this figure on
income tax. May I now ask a supple-
mentary question, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: Certainly.

HON. R. M. CATO: Is it the intention
of the Government to continue to'bur-
den the taxpayers of St. Vincent- with
these exemptions of income tax for

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker,
Honourable Members; it is not the in-'
tention of the Government. As reas-
onable and necessary acts arise they
act according to the circumstances.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker,. will
the Minister say what are the neces-
sary acts that prompted these exemp-
tions from the tax of members?

Oral Answers

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Oral Answers

MR. SPEAKER: There have been rulings
on this subject of supplementary ques-
tions and they state: a member may
ask a supplementary question for the
purpose of further eludicating any mat-
er of fact regarding which an answer
has been given; bit a supplementary
question must not be used to introduce
matter not included in the original
question:" And I believe the rationale
of that rule is specifically to avoid ques-
tions.being turned into matters for de-

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, since
a member can ask a question, have I got
the right as a member to ask a question?

(Mr. Speaker gives assent.)

Will the Chief Minister say if he in-
tends to exempt us on this side from
Income tax? But we don't want it,
we would like to pay tax.

HON. E. T. JOfsHUA: No Minister is

HON. H. F. YouikG: In other words,
Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the table
are going to pay from our small allow-
ance, we don't want exemptions.

HON. L. C. LATHAM: Will the Chief
Minister please state 'for how many
years income tax will come off?

MR. SPEAKER: That ddosn't arise out
of this question, does it? For a specific
period of time, the year 1961, you can't
extend it, you may narrow it, you can't
go into 1958, 1959; you've got to confine
yourself to the matter arising out of the

HON. L, C. LATHAM: Mr. Speaker, this
is 1960.

MR. SPEAKER: The waiver or rebate of
income tax for 1961 is payable in 1961

so the question was probably to be for
the year 1961 on income earned in 1960,
if you had put the question for 1960 you
would be speaking of income earned in
1959. We can only confine ourselves to
income earned in 1960 in this particular

HON. R. M. CATO: Well I take it, Mr.
Speaker, the Minister has given me the
answer for the 1960 tax and now I will
hav6 to ask another question to get out
the exemptions they are claiming for

M1. SPiEAKER: So long as the Honour-
able Member gives notice and puts it on
the Order Paper, it will be dealt with.

HoN. R. M. CATO: Very well, Mr.
Speaker, we will ask a subsequent ques-
tion to see how much more money has
been exempted.

MR. SPEAKER: Will the Honourable
Member ask the next question standing
in his name?

HON. R. M. CATO: Will the Chief
Minister please state whether Govern-
ment is considering any proposal for
the sale of the Camden Park Estate
and or Ottley Hall Estate or parts

HON. E. T. JOaHUA: Mr. Speaker,
Honourable Members, the answer is
in the negative.

MR. SPEAKER: The answer to both

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Yes, sir.

HON. R. M. CATO: Will the Chief
Minister inform this House whether
any offer has been made to purchase
any of the estates referred to?

H6i. E. T. JOSHUA: (inaudible)

Oral Answers

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Oral Answers

eioN.R.:'M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, would
you please relay the answer?

MR. SPEAKER: He has no offer on it.
Would the Honourable Member ask the
fourth question standing in the name
of the Honourable Member for East St.

"HoN. R. M. CATO:--

Will the Minister for Trade and Pro-
duction please make a comprehensive
statement of all transactions leading
up to the sale of any portion of the
.lands known as the old Cotton Gin-
nery and the terms of any such sale?

HoN. A. HYi ES:-

No sale of the old Cotton Ginnery
site has taken place, hence no trans-
actions have been completed between
Mr. Matthew Gonsalves Governing
Director of Elite Shirt Factory Com-
pany and the St. Vincent Government.
It is therefore regretted that no com-
prehensive statement leading up to the
sale of Ary portion of land belonging
to the Cbttoh Ginnery site can be
given as there has been no sale.

ION. 'R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, this
is most enlightening. May I repeat my
question in case the Honourable Minis-
ter has not heard me aright?

'Will the Minister for Trade and
Production please make a comprehen-
sive statement of all transactions lead-
ing up to the sale of any portion of
the lands known as the old Cotton
Ginnery and the terms of any such

And in the answer- is put no sale has
been comp eted with Mr. Matthew
Gonsalves? Who is this gentleman? I
haven't mentioned him in my question.

What are these transactions referred to
with Mr. Matthew Gonsalves, may-I ask?
INTERRUPTION Mr. Speaker, I am not
deaf, the Minister referred to trans-
actions with one Mr. Matthew Gonsalves
which I haven't made any reference to
in my question and I would like to know
now what is this reference to trans-
actions with Mr. Matthew Gonsalves.
Can I have the answer? "Hence no
transactions have been completed be-
tween Mr. Matthew Gonsalves Govern-
ing Director of Elite Shirt Factory Com-
pany and the St. Vincent Government."
What is all this about? Tell us some-
thing about it. INTERRUPTION

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem--
ber for East St. George is saying
something has arisen referring to Mr.
Matthew Gonsalves whether or not Gov-
ernment was having any kind of negoti-
ations or transactions with him as his
name has arisen in the answer.

HON. H. A. HAYNES: Mr. Speaker, Mr.
Matthew Gonsalves Governing Director
of Elite Shirt Factory Company is nego-
tiating with the St. Vincent Government
for the erection of a Shirt Factory.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I
noticed that the Minister for Trade
and Production said that Mr. Matthew
Gonsalves is in transactions or negotia-
tions with the Government to erect a
shirt factory, but where? Cotton Gin-
nery or Amos Vale? That's the point,
you haven't answered yet.

HON. C. L. TENNIS: Mr. Speaker

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Where? Where?

MR. SPEAKER: This question is eluci-
dating a certain answer. The Honour-
able Member for South Leeward would
like to know exactly where Mr. Matthew
Gonsalves plans to erect a shirt factory

Oral Answers

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Oral Answers

with reference to that answer, is it that
he is going to do business regarding the
Cotton Ginnery or what negotiations
have not been completed.

HON. H. A. HAYNES: Mr. Speaker, Mr.
Matthew Gonsalves was negotiating for
the erection of a shirt factory for the
longest while and is now negotiating
with Government for the purchase of
the Cotton Ginnery site.

HON. L. C. LATHAM: I would like to
ask a supplementary q u estion. Did
people in St. Vincent make application
for the same site?

HON. H. A. HAYNES: Mr. Speaker, I
have no application for it.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, will
the Minister please give an undertaking
that before any sale public tenders, pub-
lic offers will be invited for the sale of
this site.

MR. SPEAKER: That doesn't arise..

HON. R. M. CATO: It doesn't arise out
of the sale of the old Cotton Ginnery

MR. SPEAKER: Whether or not it arises
out of the sale of the old Cotton Gin-
nery site it doesn't arise out of what has
transpired and the answer is nothing
has transpired.' You can ask if he can
give an undertaking but he is not com-
pelled to reply.

HON. R. M. CATO: May I ask if the
Minister for Trade and Production will
give an undertaking that the public will
be invited to tender before any trans-
action is closed on the old Cotton Gin-
nery site?

HON. H. A. HAYNES: rose -

Oral Answers

MR. SPEAKER: Honourable Member for
South Leeward Will the Honourable
Member ask the question standing in his

HoN. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, sir,
I beg to ask the following question
standing in my name:

Will the Minister for Communica-
tions and Works please state what is
the reason for the considerable reduc-
tion in work among the daily paid
workers of the Public Works Depart-

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, I beg
to reply to the question asked by the
Honourable Member for South Leeward:

The answer to the question is
obvious. However, Government has
always tried to find employment for
as many persons as possible on all
Government Projects and on Main-
tenance of Roads.
When projects are completed there
is a reduction of daily paid labour
until new ones are started.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, sir,
may I ask this Minister a supplemen-
tary question? As Minister holding the
portfolio for labour that it is the res-
ponsibility of his Government and of his
portfolio to find new work for his people
instead of rebating income tax for them-
HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, that
is not a supplementary question to be
HON. H. F. YOUNG: A nail driven into
a wall cannot be taken out, it leaves the
MR. SPEAKER: Would the Honourable
Member for South Windward ask the
question standing in his name?

Thursday, 12th, October, 1961

Oral Answers

Oral Answers

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, may I
ask a supplementary question?

Is the Honourable Minister for Com-
munications and Works aware that at
the present time there are a large
number of workers unemployed and

HoN. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker,
the Minister is aware that there is a
large number of people unemployed
and under employed.

HoN. R. M. CATO: May I ask what
steps the Honourable Minister ....

(Mr. Speaker did not allow the ques-

MR. SPEAKER: Will the Honourable
Member for South Windward ask the
question standing in his name?

Will the Minister for Trade and Pro-
duction please state when the Report
'of the Department of Agriculture for
the years 1958 to 1960 will be available?

HON. H. A. HAYNES: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members:

The Department of Agriculture's
1958 and 1959 Reports are at present
with the Government Printer and
should be available as soon as they
can be printed. The 1960 Report is
still in process of compilation and
should soon be ready for printing.

HON. L. C. LATHARM: Mr. Speaker, may
I ask the Minister what steps will be
taken to speed up the printing for the
Department of Agriculture?

MR. SPEAKER: I think the Honourable
Member for South Windward would like
to know if any steps are being taken to
speed up production for members of

HON. H. A. HAYNES: Mr. Speaker,
the Department of Agriculture has no
control over the Printery.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, thi
of itself forces a point. A Minister dT
Government is going to say he has no
control over a department? There is a
relevant Minister for all departments
and with a cohesive party then this
shows that they have no party.

MR. SPEAKER: The moment we get
questions into arguments we are getting
away from the questions to motions and
we haven't reached there yet. I think
that the Honourable Member realizes
there have been many occasions in the
past where there have been difficulties
in getting the Printery Department to
get things out.

HON. R. M. CATO: But we just can't
leave it like that, Mr. Speaker, we would
like to get something definite from the
Minister on this point whether any posi-
tive steps are being taken to speed up
the printing. I don't see how he can
say the Agriculture Department has no
printing facilities, surely you've have
made enquiries of the Printing Office and
found that they can produce it in the
next six months or next year if he's on
the job at all and makes any enquiries
at all.

HON. H. A. HAYNES: Mr. Speaker, even
the Hansards have this difficulty. We
are making an effort to have these re-
ports printed.


HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, I beg
leave to defer the motion standing in my

MR. SPEAKER: Will the Honourable
Member deal with the second motion.

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Ordinance

HeN. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, the
motion standing in my name reads as

SWHEREAS the Legislative Council (Elec-
tions) Ordinance under which Elec-
tions are held in this territory is in-
adequate to prevent corruption and
mal practices

AND WHEREAS it is desirable that Elec-
tions should be conducted in such a
manner as to give true expression to
the wishes of the people

BE IT RESOLVED that the relevant Ordi-
nance be amended so as to imple-
ment the necessary safeguards for
ensuring free and honest Elections.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to take the
liberty to suggest that this is a motion
which should meet with no opposition
even from the Government members
who are so anxious to oppose everything
that comes from the Opposition, from
this side of the House. I would suggest
that .even the most disinterested party
is aware that the relevant ordinance
leaves loopholes by which corruption and
fraud can creep in. The party to which
I have the hohour to belong, Mr. Speak-
er has got an abundr-nce f evidence of
mal practices and corruption. I have
heard, Mr. Speaker, of complaints from
members of the other side of this House
appertaining to similar malpractices at
election time. You will observe, Mr.
Speaker, that I am dealing with this
motion in a purely objective manner. I
have stated that in so far as I am con-
cerned, in so far as my experience of re-
cent elections goes, many malpractices
have been observed and I go as far as to
say thEat I have heard allegations made
by members on the other side that they
have experiences or observed or heard of
similar malpractices (I will give way if
the Honourable Minister is concerned

Motion for Amendment of -

about something or worried) and I
think, Mr. Speaker, that all of us who are
interested in seeing elections take place
on a proper basis would welcome the op-
portunity to have the ordinance govern-
ing election widened in scope so as to
introduce safeguards against corruption
and malpractices from whatever quarter
they might come regardless of who
might be responsible, I make no charges
at this stage, I take it that all Honour-
able Members of this House would be in-
terested in seeing elections run on a
proper basis and it is with this in mind
that and it is in the knowledge that it
seems to be accepted that there are.loop-
holes that I come forward with this mo-
tion asking that steps be taken .to tighten
up the loopholes in order that some
remedy might be introduced for the
complaints which we have heard from
this side of the House.

The Ordinance by which our elections
are governed, Mr. Speaker, is different in
many respects from the Ordinance of the
neighboring territories. It is narrower
in scope than the Trinidad Ordinance
which has just been repealed, it is very
much narower in scope than the Barba-
dos Ordinance which I would like to
recommend for consideration if it is the
decision of this House to consider any
other ordinances. It is different in scope
from the Jamaica Ordinance. There are
a number of provisions which have been
made in these ordinances which you will
find missing from the St. Vincent Ordin-
ance. In Trinidad and Jamaica, for in-
stance, you will find provisions made for
the use of election ink, indelible ink
which identifies persons voting so that
they may not vote again at the same
polling station or at other polling sta-
tions. One of the chief difficulties in our
ordinance is concerned with registration
and I suggest that some attempt might;
be made to examine the ordinance in
order to introduce ways and means of

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Ordinance

tightening up on registration so as to
ensure that all eligible persons are given
every opportunity to be registered and
that such persons are given the oppor-
tunity to be registered even up to the
last moment. For instance, if you ex-
amine the ordinance of some of these
territories, you will see that the closing
date for registration in certain terri-
tories is a date fixed before the voting
day. In certain other territories people
are eligible to vote if they become of
age on the very date of voting. Mat-.
ters of that sort could be clarified.
Some steps, Mr. Speaker, could be taken
to ensure that there is no political dis-
crimination at enumeration time and
steps may be taken, as has been done in
the territory of Trinidad to have scruti-
neers appointed, not by Government as
has been suggested, but by the parties
themselves. Government has got its
enumerators, the Government enumer-
ator goes around, a civil serve nt or some
person appointed by Government, but
provision might be made whereby it is
permissable, in fact I go further than
that, and Government might undertake
to bear the expense of the appointment
by parties of scrutineers who would
make sure that all persons, regardless of
party, or all persons regardless of what
party they might belong to, are given the
opportunity to register. I don't want at
this stage, Mr. Speaker, to go into an
enumeration of all the ills and all the
hardships and all the shortcomings of
our pre-ent Ordiinance and all the loop-
holes because I believe that generally
speaking I am preaching to the convert-
ed and that this motion which has been
moved here today will find ready accept-
ance on both sides of this House. As I
have already indicated, Mr. Speaker, I do
not think it is necessary, in fact I think it
will serve no useful purpose at this stage
to make any allegations as one can so
easily do against any individual or any
party, that to my mind is quite unneces-
sary at this stage, there is hardly an

Motion for Amendment of --

election, whether here in this territory
or in any of the neighboring, territories,
where one does not find allegations being
made by one party or another that there
have been corrupt practices on one side:
or another side and that, Mr. Speaker,
will always continue to be so no matter
what steps and safeguards are .tak i
but, however that might be, it is essen-,
tial that from time to time and as fast
as these situations arise those of us who
bear responsibility to the country should
take whatever steps are available to us
to see that the proper machinery is set
in motion. Certain other territories have
been doing it, Mr. Speaker, the territory
of Trinidad and Tobago has recently
gone to tremendous expense to intro-
duce a new system for running their
elections, they have got the elaborate
system of voting machines. I am:. not
going to suggest that such a systemlnbe
contemplated by St. Vincent but there
are a number of other methods which
would easily be an improvement on the
present system and it may be found
desirable by this House to have a Seledt
Committee appointed to examine recent
ordinances and to select what in them
is suitable and applicable for St. Vincent
or it may be found desirable to refer.the
matter to the Law Officers of the Gov-
ernment and have them draft an or-
dinance which might introduce the
necessary safeguards and which might
be brought back to this House. What-
ever method is decided upon, whatever
method is found to be fit, I strongly
suggest that the time is ripe for some
improvement on the present system in
order to remove these complaints of
which we heard so much and which. I
suggest can be remedied without very
much difficulty. Those are the reasons
for this motion, Mr. Speaker, and I move

HON. L. C. LATHAM: I beg to second
it, Mr. Speaker.


Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislativc Council (Elections) Ordinance

HON. 2. T. JostIUA: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members, first of all I must
make a general statement on the posi-
tion of the .Government of St. Vincent.
We ntte that in the inner Council itself,
the Execative Coutncil, before we are able
to say in the open House, before We are
able to consummate anything at all, in
less than a few minutes of the meeting
it is in the streets while we note that our
business to write this country's laws is
always being forestalled and brought in
the fort of motions and naturally the
taunts, conundrums being hurled at us
ihere, we are only sitting here for some-
body to htirl them at us. We are pre-
pared, Mr. Speaker, We suffered most by
the ills that the Honourable Member
may have in mind, we suffered most by
these ills Whatever they are, we were the
vietinis of a coercive, wicked system of
registration by Which a party was able,
bethise they thought that people were
diSfranchised to Such an extent that it
Was Impossible for any party but that
patty to win an election. Now we have
kfitwn all of that and brooding over
the injustices of a civilisation of which
we are a part, democracy as we call it, no
e'itfs going to coerce this Government's
p~i's lor rectification by bringing a
nmtiton, they will be opposed once we
know that, once we are subject to third
degree methods and coercion and since
the immaturity which we listen to today
anid Since we are given ideas for ratifi-
cation, the Government is capable of
rectifying laws whatever they are that
the Honourable Member for East St.
George comes to complain of. He spoke
in his debate in laying down this motion
of the difficulties concerning registra-
tion, that is a thing a lot of people gone
to the United Kingdom, lots of them
have gone to farm lands of America from
Central Windward and on election day,
despite the fact that three thousand
and odd people were registered with
those people leaving and going away,
seven hundred people couldn't vote and

Motion for Amendment of -

the Government in power wouldn't rec-
tify that? Whose motion, therefore?
We believe that when motions come like
that they serve as a slap to the Govern-
ment then we don't see the necessity
for this motion at all. Now, sir, there
are some points that I recall from the
mouth of the Member for East St.
George himself political discrimina-
tion. Never before have I seen, Mr.
Speaker, people leaving from all the
inner parts like Greggs and Fountain
and coming to Colonarie where they be-
lieve because the Returning Officer that
they seek presides there, knowing if
something could not be done that the
disfranchised subject of the QUEEN hav-
ing been given a vote under adult suf-
frage to be able to vote. These matters
were raised with His Honour the Admin-
istrator a week, two weeks, three weeks
in arithmetical progression, people not
being registered all over the country
but as the Member for East St. George
said, political discrimination and to be
registered at the last moment I think
is a crime, something is wrong with this
ordinance when in our democracy that
we boast about above all other democra-
cies that you deliberately make an act
and give a person a vote saying you are
entitled under adult suffrage to give a
vote and at the last moment disfran-
chise him because you fear that he is
going to vote for an opposite party.
Nothing could be worse than that, Mr.
Speaker, the proceedings in the Kremlin
couldn't be worse than that and we are
supposed to be living in a democracy, we
know that full well yet they bring this
motion here believing that we are going
to tolerate that in this country and to
bravado and say we have. redeemed our-
selves and we have amended the election
law. I will oppose this motion and so,
Mr. Speaker, we go ahead in the Trini-
dad Election Order in Council charges,
Mr. Speaker, against anyone will get up
here, write what he likes on paper and
publish it at election time and nothing

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Ordinance

can happen to him because the printers
and the press are under (inaudible) so
the Member for once is right, I know it,
but you cannot (inaudible) anything in
Trinidad. And so, Mr. Speaker, those
are the points that some time ago in a
Federal Election a most infamous libel
was printed here in this country and we
got the document but nothing could be
done with it, we didn't, know where it
was printed, it was printed in Mars and
came to Earth. This motion is not
necessary and you may bawl out again
when the screws are tightened up. (IN-
TERRUPTION by Hon. R. M. Cato) I
quoted just now what you said about the
defects and people couldn't vote in this
country, I know it and know how it was
done. Now, IMr. Speaker, the motion
stated in its preamble, its resolve "Be
it resolved that the relevant Ordin-
ance be amended so as to implement
the necessary safeguards for ensuring
FREE" Who here had enslaved elec-
tions? At every turn in every area
people were informed what was happen-
ing and because of that something could
have been done to stop the elections
and have a proper enrolment, do it all
over again, if that's what we were clam-
ouring for it is clear that we are justi-
fled that we were all for free elections
and somebody was for enrlaved elec-
tions, subversion of the rights of some-
body else only that the machine guns
were not turned on on those and if it
were possible on that day it would have
been done. What is the quarrel? The
question is free. As simple as the
word is some people do not use it cor-
rectly, talking here about free elections
in a motion and any election would
have been honest that day if it were
possible something worse would have
taken place, an honest election it is
nauseating and biting for votes and even
the devil if he had brought some they
would have been accepted far more hon-
est elections. That is what we talk here

Motion for Amendment of -

in this House, it doesn't fit into the
pattern of what happens outside, Mr.
Speaker, the Government is taking rele-
vant, necessary and due steps to write
the Constitutional Order in Council that
will give us better rules for this country
and that will be done, the Government
is doing it. I stress that there are times
when people become more irresponsible,
there are times when people become
.more laissez-faire, there are times when
people take sides and only believe that
the aristocracy should prevail and the
plebs should be crushed to the earth and
therefore they gang up to bring out all
information and inform people of what
is happening and motions are brought
here. I am saying this without any fear
of contradiction.

HON. R. M. CATO: Sit and let me dis-
appoint you.

HoN. E. T. JOSHUA: You can never dis-
appoint me.

HON. R. M. CATO: The Chief Minister
in his excitement and his enthusiasm
was suggesting that he make allegations
without fear of contradiction and you
have allowed several spurious allegations
to pass. What he is now suggesting is
that information is being brought out
from Government departments and
being used by members. This, Mr.
Speaker, I would suggest is a wicked
and malicious allegation insofar as it
concerns civil servants, it is wicked and
malicious because they are not able to
defend themselves here.

MR. SPEAKER: May I comment on that
point. I have taken the trouble some
time ago to go very minutely into that
point and the rule in Parliamentary
practice is to the effect that civil ser-
vants s'iould not at any time be subject
in the Council by either side, by either
the Government or the Opposition. No

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Cozcilt (El sections) Ordinance

civil servant should be attacked either
by the Government o:: the Opposition in
Council because they really have no
right of audience here and no right to
deal with anything in this House. If at
any time there is any misconduct by
civil servants, the normal procedure is
they are brought before a certain Govern-
ment body who check up on their wrong
doing -and they are tried there and dis-
ciplined if there is anything at all slant-
ing towards anyone in the Government
Service who brings out anything of a con-
fidential nature Executive Council or
anywhere else the proper practice is, the
rule is that it should not be brought up
in Council by any side. If there is any-
thing it should be dealt with in the
proper channel and the civil servant
should be disciplined accordingly in the
normal channels.

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, I ac-
cept your ruling to the point in question.
The ruling states that a civil servant,
that does not say that we cannot make
reference to civil servants here.
MR. SPEAKER: It isn't a question of
making reference to civil servants, when
civil servants are attacked, if there is
any specific fact against A, B, or C, A, B,
or C should be brought before the proper
b.r~. .disciplined and either cl..ta-ed or
expelled or dealt with.
HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, the
Honourable Chief Minister made a gen-
eral statement about civil servants I
don't see how the Honourable Member
for East St. .George could completely
misinterpret what the Chief Minister
was saying.
IHo::. E. T. JOSHUA: It is quite clear
that every man who knows his guilt will
always attack and misinterpret people's
wordr. This morning I never referred to
any Civil Servant, I never said any word
abo rt them, I didn't even tay that a civil
servant is like a stock exchange bulletin

Motion for Amendment of -

the most ungrateful people in any part
of the earth especially those who have a
note to take and bring out the business
of the Government. Well then he will
stand here and most precipitately con-
nect it to referring to civil servants. I
believe that those are straws in the
wind on the part of the party on the
opposite side.
MR. SPEAKER: Would you go ahead
with the subject of the motion. I think
we had better put the House to know my
feeling on the matter. Sooner or later,
at some time or the other an Honourable
Member on either side may raise some,
thing specifically so I think it best that
both sides should know my feeling on the
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: We heard from
the party on the opposite side about mal
practice, not only was it heard, the most
hideous spectacle I have ever seen under
a democracy is on election day that some
set of fascists were at work to contrive
that work, that fine demonic work of
art in the simple election to ascertain
who was to carry on a simple Govern-
ment under the same democracy for the
next five years. It was a mischievous
piece of handiwork that it was known
even before or just at the time when
cards were to be there for claimants
under your name to vote. Some set of
evil geniuses, the clock-like demonic
work of art was devised so they went to
the police stations and collected every
plein card that placed the supervisor of
elections in a dilemma to find one plain
card, the printers worked all night. All
t:i-s wicked things were done in this
cl.ectio. so that somebody might win
then they come here and talk here to us
in this :Ionourable House about free
elect.ios pnd about dishonest elections.
NTy Cod, if we still used to (inaudible)
into fi-e we -'?u3.d have had something
b.ere worse than- (inaudible) this motion
here. So, Mr. Speaker, we come here
with one determination to "walk the

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Ordinance

stick" with him and we do our duty by
making the regulations here properly
that we might be able to have, then we
will be able to have elections, those elec-
tions when we suffered at the hands of
those who would bring a party here
they do that because they think the
Government might vote for it. The
Government will do it not anybody else,
we have no press, we may at some time
or other. No civilisation behaves like
this and it looks very good in the eyes
of the people who say they are intelli-
gent, it looks very nicely and that can
tell you what sort of elections you had
here on the 20th April. The motion
was made here, what is elections people
being disfranchised all over the country
because it was suspected, those who
enumerated them ... (inaudible) ... and
so they brought this motion here today.
The Government, Mr. Speaker, is suffi-
ciently qualified to make changes in the
Election Order in Council so that we can
have honest elections. We are about to
do that and we shall oppose this motion.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, it is
a pity to have .a Chief Minister and
we must respect constitutional change-
who is the head of our Government -
and I say our because I know we must
have a Government and we must have
an Opposition getting up here in this
House and saying that he agrees with
a motion but going all over the bush and
making political speeches; he agrees
with it but only because it comes from
the Opposition he will not support it.
Mr. Speaker, the Chief Minister him-
self said yes there is malpractice. Our
motion asked that if possible a com-
mittee or the Attorney General It has
happened in Trinidad just recently that
they have brought in machinery. We say
yes there are malpractices. What is all
this nonsense? We are fed up with all
this Alice in Wonderland, we are fed up
with all of these glorified speeches, let's
get to facts and serve the people, this

Motion for Amendment of -

is an educated Council Chamber, I be-
lieve you want me to tell you some of
the things. The Honourable Member for
North Windward who is his wife, prior
to the elections was seen all over the
country in a Public Works jeep mal-
practices of the highest order, corrup-
tion (as Mr. Speaker rises) No, no, don't
stop me now.

MR. SPEAKER: When you are identify-
ing specific individuals you must bring
a substantive motion or you are cut of

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, this
is quite relevant, we came here

MR. SPEAKER: That is the procedure
that you have to use to get it rele-rant.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Be a little flexible.
We heard the Chief Minister agreeing
with this and he went all around. I am
going to prove malpractices, this motion
here is because of wellknown instances
as he rightly said, this motion was
brought for that. If you take a little
girl as a teacher from Layou and send
her to Camden Park to list, that little
girl wasn't born in Camden Park and
we know that the Government directs
election and I am not saying for one
moment that anyone or any particular
Ministers were responsible but like
everything else mistakes can be made.
What happened is this, when you ask
a man from his district who under-
stands the people,, he would know how
many people lived there, but the em-
phasis was on school teachers and they
took a school teacher from Chateau-
belair and put hiin to work at Troumaca
to list names; when they go there they
only list who they find in the house, but
if they had taken somebody from Trou-
maca, let's say, who's not a school teach-
er, who has only had a sixth standard
education, he could have stayed at home

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Ordinance

and listed the whole village for that
matter and you have pracices like this
throughout the whole country so I'm
certain that there are a lot of people
left unregistered. It happened again
that some of the clerks that were hired
to conduct the elections were not prop-
erly trained, we're not making any as-
persions on the Government, this motion
seeks to amend, to call a committee of
both sides of the House, or for that
matter the Government put up some
recommendations and every time we on
this side of the House bring a motion,
it hurts their pride and the country
suffers, that is what is happening. It
happened here with motions before, they
sit here and waste the taxpayers money,
we bring it to their notice and they be-
come ashamed because the Chief Min-
ister realizes that the Ordinance should
be amended but he says we are capable
of doing it. We in the Opposition be-
long to the people and we are capable of
reminding, and it is our duty to remind
you, of things that you have to do and
all the howling in the market doesn'
affect our people in the country. What
has this Government brought here yet
in the form of a motion, to assist the
down-trodden masses? If I was on that
side of the fence with the cultural and
moral principles I would hide myself in
shame and put a black cloth across my
face when I heard this morning about
income tax. Mr. Speaker, the question
is this that the St. Vincent Legislative
Council, the members of the Opposition
honestly didn't say that it was PPP
people, we probably had some Labour"
people who did some wrong things too,
we don't want them to do wrong things,
we want our people to respect law and
order, we want our people to have some-
body to appeal to but under this condi-
tion the whole thing is breaking down,
discipline is gone and as I stand here as
the Member for South Leeward I
couldn't care less about this because I
was put here by eight hundred votes, I

Motion for Amendment of -

am in the majority and I stand solid in
votes from my people and it would take
until I'm bowed before some member
succeeds there. The Chief Minister
himself and if he wants to run against
me what confusion you would see as
when captain is out all men are out-

Mr. Speaker, let me go back. Both
sides of the House realize . I've only
answered him because I'm capable of
answering him and he agreed that the
Government is going to do something,
but he is going to oppose the motion.
Why? You are opposing something that
you are agreeing to. No, because you
didn't bring it. My God! When are we
going to change our attitude? Because
when something is right for that child in
the house and the mother sees it but
the father is jealous because he didn't
see it first then he will despise thhe tchid,
that is exactly what is going on here. Is
this the estate of the Chief Minister and
his colleagues? Does the St. Vincent
Government belong to you over there or
is it for the benefit of the people? This
is what Napoleon said and I read from a
debate in the Hansard, I quoted it some
time and I am going to quote it now:
"Great ambition is the passion of great
character. He who is endowed with it
will perform very good or very bad
actions. All depends upon the principles
which direct you. True greatness, then,
is the combination of genuine spiritual
life within. "Genuine spiritual life with-
in for the good of the masses who put
us here, not petty jealousies, compro-
mise, give and take. The Chief Minister
is not Napoleon, he's no God, he is sub-
ject to mll-.:=es like anybody else and
in a country like this that couldn't too
long ago properly qualify it is time for
him to know his responsibility for the
help of his people and not to stand
there with petty jealousies and hate and
grudge because scorn and selfishness
would soon go, it happened to Mussolini

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Ordinance

he hadn't the burial of an ordinary peas-
ant in Italy, he was buried upside down,
they couldn't find Hitler and it would
happen some will only disappear. Mr.
Speaker,I stand here and no Chief Min-
ister I have been fighting him for
years, I have refused bribe from being

MR. SPEAKER: That is out of order.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: And no collection
of Chief Ministers or collection of Minis-
teis that you see there will I ever mix
with as regards politics and if we figure
that this election or this ordinance, we
have seen a million laws amending all
sorts of things. If he is honest in his
intention, let him vote against it. He's
going to vote against it and then he's
going to bring it back, Government is
going to fix it. How many things is this
Government going to fix? The ginnery
burnt down, they were to build it back
and rumour says that he has sold it
underpriced. Not one thing has this
Government done to raise the standard
in this country, put money into their
pockets while the poor are still suffering.
Can we trust this Government to do any-
thing? We had the Stony Ground issue.

MR. SPEAKER: We must confine our-
selves to the debate before the House.

HON. C. L. TANNINS: rose -

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Boy, sit down, you
little boy from the Grenadines, you
ought-to hide your head in shame.

HON. C. L. TANIs: Mr. Speaker, I
must draw your attention to the remarks
of the Honourable Member for South
LeeWard and remind you that if you
allow the Honourable Member for South
Leeward to ramble like that

MR. SPEAKER: I have told the Honour-

Motion for Amendment of -

able Member for South Leeward that it
is outside of the debate.

ION. H. F. YOUNG: Thank you very
much. You will notice that I respect
the chair a whole lot. It is my duty to
say what I want to say until Mr. Speaker
stops me and a nail driven in the wall
still leaves the hole in the wall and
Hansard will have it and I apologise to
you, sir, and let me go on to say that
the same authority that brings you here,
it is people's business that brings u"
here now and all these remarks you are
making, Mr. Speaker, the responsibil-
ity of this country, the constitutional
changes, I am not going to say whether
I want to see any type of national feel-
ing going on, when I hear my country-
men constitutionally, politically, I have
been with them for eleven years, I would
figure it is better we were under a white
man, it is a disgrace, Mr. Speaker, and
in my motion that is coming next with
the investigation of Public Works you
will then hear corruption, you will thzn
hear and I hope you won't stop me then.
Anyhow, Mr. Speaker..

MR. SPEAKER: Don't anticipate me.

HoN. H. F. YOUNG: I am not antici-
pating, I'm not afraid. Mr. Speaker,
great r-en have gone into prison and
come out and led their people; when I
speak inside here it is like somebody
can't say anything to me and if it
reaches to the point of ........ we
go down together because this type of
thing cannot go on in our country -
underselling, profiteering ...

MR. SPEAKER: No, no!
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: I am going to see
to it that this thing is going to stop!
MR. SPEAKER: Honourable Member for
South Leeward will you confine yourself
to the debate?

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Ordinance

Hox. H. F. YOUNG: Thank you very
much, it is eleven years I was here and
I heard the Chief Minister rabble rous-
ing on this side of the fence, it's going
to be twenty-five more, not like the
Member for the Grenadines. Would you
like me to to quote from the Hansard
the Chief Minister's remarks to his able
seconder from the Grenadines and what
he was saying? I'll leave that for later.

MR. SPEAKER: SO long as it concerns
the subject of the debate.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Anyhow, Mr.
Speaker, I'm laughing because nobody
is going to get me scared here, I know
all these fellows, I've been in the Gov-
ernment and I was outside the Govern-
ment, I was encouraged to go in and I
stayed outside and it is better to be in
a thatched house a happy man than to
be in a palace in misery. I thank you
very much, Mr. Speaker.

HON. H. A. HAYNEs: Mr. Speaker, the
motion brought before the House this
morning by the Honourable learned and
gallant Member for East St. George It
seems that some of the complaints We
have had our experience in the last elec-
tions too and we are going to see to it
that this ordinance be amended so that
free and honest elections, we certainly
want free and honest elections to take
place. In the General Elections in
December you had families with five
names on the list and on the General
Elections you had for example in St.
George, the constituency which I repre-
sent even my name was not listed and
I had to send a form to have it inserted.
Seeing sir, that this Government is con-
scious and is going to make an attempt
to regularise this ordinance, I find it
unnecessary that this motion should be
brought here and I am not prepared to
support it.

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, the

Motion for Amendment of -

motion on the Order Paper is as follows:
"Whereas the Legislative Council (Elec-
tions) Ordinance under which Elections
are held in this territory is inadequate
to prevent corruption and malprac-
tices . Let me deal with the words
"inadequate to prevent corruption". You
will note that the Honourable Member
for East St. George discovered that the
Ordinance under which the Election was
carried on was inadequate. How long
ago did the Honourable Member for
East St. George discover that the Or-
dinance under which the election was
carried on was not adequate enough to
prevent corruption and malpractices?
How long ago? He has gone on to sev-
eral elections with the same Ordinance
and he has not outlined to the House
this morning where is the corruption,
where is the malpractice. The mover Of
this motion has not presented any facts
to the House, Mr. Speaker, to convince
me that this motion should be supported,
perhaps he is now going to do so when
he is summing up. When he is able to
convince me that he has facts unless
he has facts that he cannot bring for-
ward or perhaps he is waiting on the
Government to give him some informa-

MR. SPEAKER: AS far as this particular
motion is concerned, I know a little bit
of the machinery and a tremendous
number of Government officials were
employed in the conducting of elections
and I do not know whether or not they
may or may not be singled out for men-
tion which would, be objected to as a
result cf what I said before, singled out
for mention by either side of the House,
that would not be allowed here at all.

HON. C L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, the
motion is before the House, it is the
duty of the leader, the mover, to so con-
vince this House that this motion is
necessary, he has failed to do that so I
can't see how I can agree with a motion

Thursday, 12th Odtober, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Ordinance

like this on which no facts have been
presented, just making wild statements
here in this House. This motion by the
Member for East St. George can't con-
vince me that it is necessary to be
brought here at this time. Mr. Speaker,
he mentioned persons who assisted in
conducting elections, the Honourable
Member for South Leeward made men-
tion that a young lady was taken from
Layou and sent to Camden Park and she
didn't know the people in the country
sufficiently to register them. Mr. Speak-
or, are you going to amend an ordinance
when this matter could be adjusted by
the Registration Officer? He should have
objected, he had the chance to object,
Mr. Speaker, in due time. The Honour-
able Member for South Leeward quoting
a thing like that in support of a motion!
He has no convincing evidence. He
rabble rouses here in the House, Mr.
Spoal:er, accusing the Government of
corruption of all sorts except in every
case he had quoted the facts of the
motion before the House Mr. Speaker,
we heard about the use of the Public
Works jeep. What does that have to do
with this motion? Mr. Speaker, when
Honcurable Members of the opposite side
sit down and try to convince this House
that they are really debating the motion
befo.-e the House by making reference
to th-e Public Works jeep before elections
I th'nk it is hopeless, out of order, and
-i f-uture, Mr. Speaker should rule these
thin.:'s out of order, ask the Member to
speal: on the motion before the House,
if tl;.ey have nothing to say, let them
keep their seats. Mr. Speaker, I have
not heard about the malpractices and
corruption from the mover and seconder
of thle motion, we have not yet heard
Then we go further on, Mr. Speaker:
And whereas it is desirable that Elec-
tions should be "conducted in such a
manner as to give true expression to the
wishes of the people" Can the Hon-
ourable mover tell us where are the elec-

Motion for kAYWhl'drzfnt of -

tions in Which the "'tite wistles of the
people were not gitenh? -' 'he tell us?
He has not done so, "fe 'has 'hot told us
where there wasn't a truee 'expression of
the.wishes of'the people. Is lie coming
here because of a Worfrihd ~mlid over the
results of the last election 'to tell you
that because they t'ad no grotinds for a
petition you come ihere 'to tll me that
there wasn't a true expression given of
the wishes of the people? Am I to sit
here Mr. Speaker, on the Gofernment
benches and say that 'there wasn't a
true expression of the Wishes of the
people by which all elected members
were returned here? I couldn't agree, I
couldn't say here with the wording 'of
this motion of course the Honourable
Member for East St. George is a lawyer
and perhaps he believes that anything
he puts on paper is going to meet with
acclaim, it's not only the lack of facts,
not only the framing of the motion, it's
the presentation of the motion and to
hear our learned friend who claims to be
a lawyer getting up in the House ..

HON R. M. CATO: I'm not claiming to
be anything.
MR SPEAKER: He is not here in a legal
capacity, he is here in an official capa-
city as the Honourable Member for East
St. George.
HON. E. T. JOSHUA interposes: Hon-
ourable, learned and gallant member,
with all due respects. [Laughter]
Hox. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, the
Honourable Member for East St. George,
member of this House, the honourable
learned and gallant member who is sup-
posed to be a lawyer
MR. SPEAKER: I do not like these in-
sinuations, he is a legal man

VOICE: Learned and gallant, remem-
ber that.

801 -

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Ordinance

HON. C. L. TANNIs: Mr. Speaker, I'm
sorry if I said "supposed" who is a
lawyer, Mr. Speaker. But why I said
"supposed to be a lawyer", is because of
the way he presented the motion. No
legal brain has any right to present a
motion with such weakness to this House
and then you are ruling to tell me, Mr.
Speaker, that I am not to make supposi-
tions. Mr. Speaker, we are all supposed
to be dumb men on this side of the
House who can't read properly but I am
going to read this motion and debate it:
"Whereas it is desirable that Elections
should be conducted .. In other
words, the Honourable Member for East
St. George is saying that elections in this
country arc not conducted properly "as
to give true expression to the wishes of
the people." He is speaking about the
conduct of elections, Mr. Speaker, but if
he is speaking about conduct of elec-
tiqns, the conduct of elections is the way
the elections are carried on. But he
speaks about ordinance and then he
speaks about conduct.

MR. SPEAKER: I don't think-4'Whereas
it is desirable that Elections should be
conducted in such a manner that is
futuristic, not in the past.

IHON. E. T. JOSHUA: It must have some
connection with the past

HON..C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, if
there were no elections here, if there
were no ordinance here, if no elections
had taken place and no ordinances were
in existence, then no reference could be
made and since reference was made by
the honourable mover himself about past
elections I am in order to refer to them
in that manner. I can't see the ,ivnt
there, Mr. Speaker, I'm sorry. "Be it
resolved that the relevant Ordinance be
amended so as to implement the neces-
sary safeguards for ensuring free and
honest Elections." In other words, Mr.

Motion for Amendment of -

Speaker, the mover of the motion has
told us in simple language that the elec-
tions were not free and honest and we
challenge that statement. He has not
yet shown to this House where the Elec-
tions were not free and not honest. I
don't know Mr. Speaker, I have before
me here a Report on the General Elec-
tions held on April 20th 1961 which was
accepted by this Honourable House as
a true and accurate report, Mr. Speaker,
of an election, the results of a free
and honest election. This Report was
brought here and Mr. Speaker the ....

(uproar as members seated talk among

HON. H. F. YOUNG: (heard abcv3 up-
roar) He is from Canouan

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, the
Honourable Member should not forge.
that he worked in Canauan for a period
in his life. And Mr. Speaker, this report
was debated in this Council

VOICE: When?

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, the
honourable mover of the motion is not
convinced that elections were not free
and that elections were not honest. The
mover of the motion I'm speaking of
the mover of the motion, I am debating
a motion brought here by the Honour-
able Member for East St. George who
declares that elections are not free and
honest. It is my duty to convince him
that they are free and honest elections.
If ycu '.,an~ I r. Speaker, the mover
knows orf dou -3e. he is satisfied that he
has slipped u., I'm sorry I had to bring
it to light but it is my duty. He spoke
about loophrle, he hasn't quoted any
loopho'7:, -h'ire are tie.e loph-les? I
listened attentively 'o the mover with
the earnest hope that I would have been
able to give some support to this motion,

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Ordinance

but he has failed so hopelessly, he has
said everything else except what he
wrote on paper and, Mr. Speaker, it is
time that the honourable and learned
member should bring motions here and
really debate them, I am debating a
motion as presented on the Order Paper,
if the mover had, any other intentions
and he has not expressed them there in
proper language that is his business but
what he has expressed here is not cor-
rect according to the presentation. He
made mention about the recent Elec-
tion, malpractices, corruptions, state-
ments made by other members of the
House, made on the outside, complaints,
allegations, and Mr. Speaker, are you
going to tell me that the Honourable
Member for East St. George who is the
leader of the opposing party in the
election would not have brought all of
these malpractices, corruptions and all
of these loopholes to light to safeguard
the interest of his party and his safe
return to form aGovernment? As
anxious as they were, Mr. Speaker, all
that anxiety, I understand that one
member, the Member for South Leeward
said he would not be bribed. Let me
inform him that he went to the polls
under the doubtful franchise and he
was returned by a majority vote, am I
now to understand that those votes were
achieved by bribery or then am I to
undertsand that he is trying to attempt
to say that the votes duly received by
members on this side were not fair? In
spite of that, Mr. Speaker, he has done
nothing about it and he accepted this
report. Mr. Speaker, I can't really fol-
low the arguments produced on this
motion by the members of the Opposi-
tion and therefore, since there have been
no facts presented in support of the
motion, I am not going to see my way
in supporting this motion for lack of
true representation and the true facts.

HoN. L. C. LATHAM: Mr. Speaker, the

Motion for Amendment of -

motion was brought here this morning'
by the Leader of the Opposition to try
to safeguard the elections. The last'
speaker was blowing hot and cold all
the time, Mr. Speaker. This malpractice
that he is speaking about so much in the
Elections that have just finished and the
Honourable Member knows he is one who
practised this malpractice.

HoN. C. L. TANNIs: Mr. Speaker, the
Honourable Member for South Wind-
ward ..

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem-
ber for South Windward must refrain
from making any allegations of miscdn-
duct or malpractice against 'any hon-
ourable member of this House on which-i
ever side of the House which can only.
operate under a substantive motion;
allegations against civil servants I will
stop immediately, allegations against
honourable members must be by way of'
a substantive motion.

HON. L. C. LATHAM: Mr. Speaker, there
is a motion before the House and all I
am trying to do is to carry out an
amendment "Be it resolved that the
relevant Ordinance be amended so as to
implement the necessary safeguards for
ensuring free and honest Elections." I
am saying without fear the Honourable
Member for the Grenadines knows what'
I am saying is true. Malpractices took
place in the Grenadines and we are safe-
guarding LAUGHTER ......

Blowing hot and cold. Mr. Speaker, if
we had a different system of voting the
Honourable Member for the Grenadines
would not have been in his seat. A
different system of voting, that is all it
is. If you had a different system Clive
Mitchell would have been in your seat.
It is that same malpractice we are try-
ing to wipe out by giving bribes and so
on, flour, etc. So,. Mr, Speaker, we just

TA rsdq 12th October, 1961

Legislative.CpouAci.(Electiops) Ordinance

heard the last. speaker, the Honourable
Member, for. the.,Grenadines, saying that
we were,,anxious. to form Government.
That is the. man. (pointing at the Hon-
ourable MemPer. for the Grenadines) who
is looking, for power, ppwpr. crazy! We
were not as anxious to form Government
as the Honourable,Member for the. Gren-
adines. Both parties, were, anxious to
form Government, it was Elections.

MR. SPEAKER: That doesn't ansWerr.the
question of voting regularity or irregu-

Iolo,, L. C. LATHAM;, Mr.. Speaker, it
ar9se .in the debate .here that we were
anxious,.to form,,Gov.ernment. Mr.
Speaker,. al!. we. are. asking for is an
amnencitent.of _the Ordinance and the
Chie;f,Minister agreed, he said it was the
first time .he.agreed wiuh the Honourable
Meymer for East. St.. George on this
motion. but it must come from the Gov-
ernment'bloc and n9t .from the Opposi-
tion. I don't see, Mr. Speaker, how you
ca, jgee, with something and the Chief
Mipst.]; directly decides to go against
tho sa~e nth!1g.. Mr. Speaker, that re-
mnd me, of .what, happened recently
wi-thia:4n9pr we made an amendment,
they tlre:lit out and in the next meet-
ing ,tx 4e)* y president brought up the
same amendment and this amendment
will be brought back here, Mr. Speaker,
worded, in. a .different way by the At-
torrey General.

MR. SPEAKER: That is extraneous to
the matter under review.now.

HON. L. C. LATHAM: Mr, Speaker, I
heard .he Honourable Member for West
St. George making a statement. He said
he agreed with the motion but because
his name wasn't on the list although he
lived in West St. George and he is still
going to vote against the motion. He is
blowing hot and cold, Mr. Speaker, we

Motion for Amendment of -

had several complaints here, what we
are trying to avoid is the complaints that
led to the Supreme Court, Mr. Speaker,
because I remember, sir, the same old
Ordinance, the Minister for Social Ser-
vices went to the Supreme Court on
that same ordinance, some election of-
fences, the Honourable Member for
South Leeward and I can remember well,
Mr, Speaker, that same ordinance that
you have here that is being debated
today caused the Member for Kingstown
and the Member for East St. George to
go to the Supreme Court here because
the Federal Election and our local Elec-
tion was based on the same ordinance
and I remember Government had to
write off cases in the Supreme Court in
the Federal Election under the same
ordinance we are trying to amend so I
can't see the reason why the Govern-
ment bloc has decided they are not going
to vote for the amendment of the Or-
dinance and they themselves agree that
the Ordinance needs amending. Mr.
Speaker, I think they will change their
minds and let us go on with the people's
business and let us get this Ordinance

HON. S. E. SLATER: Mr. Speaker, I am
not surprised at all seeing this motion
here this morning because I have been
noticing as soon as this Government
seeks to remedy or set up the machinery
to perfect certain arrangements it is
being brought here in the form of a
motion by the Opposition. Mr. Speaker,
what this motion is seeking here this
morning Government has already set up
the machinery

HON. H. F. YOUNG interrupting: Well
say so then

HON. S. E. SLATER: Therefore I don't
see that this motion is necessary, I don't
see where it comes in and as far as I am

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Or

concerned with reference to the
for South Windward, there is a
everything in the whole world,
always the right and the wrong
during that election whereby a
seeks to open a station until 6 o
5.30 an election petition was pu
then the Judge caused the electi
null and void and it happened
was able to get more votes than
the first instance. Anything
wrong will always be brought
dealt with accordingly. As far
see we needn't have any length:
because what this motion is ast
Government has already effect
the necessary machinery into f
having it effected. As for the ot
of it, it is beyond the control
Government to try and say th
is not a free election. No body
anybody from going to the p
their own free will they go to 1
so that is a free election. Witt
evidence, the most important th
I see is that specifically a point
therefore, get the machinery
whereby you can get it fashion
therefore I can't see where this
comes in, it is unnecessary.

MR. SPEAKER: I would like to
comment on that Concern
Standing Rules and Orders of th
cil and amendments to that, if
position is kept informed of a
stantial alteration to the electo
or if the Opposition is requested
part in a bi-partisan commit
often some of these motions
done away with.,
HpN. S. E. SLATER: On a point
planation, Before we got a ch
have the machinery fully and co
established, before it is actually
the motion is brought here see]
same thing.
Sitting suspended 12.28 p


law for
there is
g and so
'clock or

Motion for Amendment of -

Sitting resumed 2:10 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem-
ber for East St. George.

t in and HoN. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, when
on to be I opened this debate this morning, I
I that I endeavoured and flattered myself that
I got in I had succeeded in setting a certain level
that is to this debate in that I had set about
up and deliberately to avoid references to per-
as I can sonalities, to avoid reference to parties
y debate and I endeavoured not to cast any asper-
ing this sions on any individual or party and I
d or put had hoped, alas I see I had hoped in
'orce for vain, that that standard would have
other side been maintained throughout this debate
of any but following immediately after my con-
at there tribution we had the Honourable the
stopped Chief Minister reversed the pattern that
lolls; by had been set and sought to introduce
the polls reference to parties and sections of this
Small the community which as has been pointed
ing that out by Your Honour, ought to be left out
Sin law, of the debate of this House. Indeed, the
set up Chief Minister in the course of his debate
ned out indicated that he was capable of intro-
Smotion during pretty rough methods if the Op-
position continued in the course which
She did not like but I would like, Mr.
make a Speaker, to make it absolutely clear that
ing the in so far as this Opposition is concerned,
is Coun- though we are not going to indulge in
the Op- the practices and methods to which the
ny sub- Chief Minister made reference, let it be
ral laws clearly understood that we are not going
Ito take to be cramped or stifled in any way
tee very whatsoever when it comes to carrying
could be out the functions that we have under-
taken in this House. If a condemnation
of the Governing party, if a condemna-
it of ex- tion of the Government was needed at
iance to any time or any section of the commun-
mpletely ity, the Ministers of this Government
finished, have provided that condemnation this
king the morning in the childish, the puerile
Attitude that they have adopted with
.m. regard to the motion before the House.

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Ordinance

We had the Chief Minister and his
spokesman for the Opposition what does
he tell us? He makes his position abun-
dantly clear at the opening-the motion
is a good one, he says, indeed it is the
motion which the Government had been
contemplating, indeed, he says, no sooner
have we discussed matters in our Execu-
tive Council than out it comes and it
comes before this House in the form of
a motion; for once, he says, I have got
to agreee with the Leader of the Opposi-
tion, for once, he says, I've got to agree
with the Leader of the Opposition for
the very things he refers to are the
things that we have been considering,
the things that we have been pointing
out, the things that we are going to do
something about and so the Chief Minis-
ter sets out to enumerate the malprac-
tices, the acts of corruption which the
Honourable Member for the Grenadines
found it so difficult to understand, one
can understand the antagonism of the
Minister for Communications and Works
towards the Opposition, we can under-
stand it, there are a number of reasons
which I won't go into at the moment,
Mr. Speaker. No, if I'm challenged I
never want to turn down a challenge.
I am referring, Mr. Speaker, to the pecul-
iar position in which the Member for
the Grenadines now finds himself and
listening to his debate this morning one
wondered whether there was a third
party in this House, whether a third
political party had come into existence,
whether it was not another act of
treachery on the part of the Minister
for Communications and Works.

HoN. C. L. TENNIS: Rose

MR. SPEAKER: Any imputation of that
nature should not be made by any one

HON. R. M. CATO: Let me put it in
language, Mr. Speaker, which will not

Motion for Amendment of -

offend the sensibilities of the Speaker
or certain members of this House and
which will with equal force drive the
point home to our friend, the Member
for the Grenadines. I wondered, Mr.
Speaker, whether the Member for the
Grenadines was doing a bobbing and
weaving game, whether having served
his apprenticeship on the Labour Party
and then changing over and serving his
apprenticeship with the PPP he was
not seeking to establish another king-
dom for himself. It has not escaped
the notice of the members on this side
that the Minister for Communications
and Works is on diverse occasions trying
to usurp the position of the Chief Mir.-
ister, it has not escaped our notice an l
I believe it has not escaped the notic-
of the Chief Minister himself.

MR. SPEAKER: YOU are speaking not of
HON. R. M. CATO: Yes, I'm dealing
with the bit of impertinence, let him sit
down and take it.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem-
ber is speaking of whether there is any
question of political importance ..

HON. R. M. CATO: Thank you, Mr.
Speaker, but when the Member for the
Grenadines interjects a certain amount
of impertinence I have to deal with him
and put him in his place if we can find
the proper place for him. Let me caution
him out of kindness that his antics -
I'm borrowing a word \. which Hansard
attributes to the ex Minister (what was
she?) ex Minister of Social Services, -
his antics are not escaping any of the
members of this House, least of all the
Minister of Finance. So. Mr. Speaker,
now that I have dealt with this digres-
cion occasioned by the impertinence of
the Minister for Communications and
Works, let me return to the Minister who

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Ordinance

I indicated as an educated House I ex-
pected no opposition on this motion
because we have heard time and time
again the Chief Minister himself in the
market place and elsewhere say that
there was corruption in election, say that
there were malpractices, I don't know
why he doesn't open a little school for
his colleagues so that they also will
appreciate the line that he's taking. But
the Chief Minister gets up and in no
uncertain terms says: this motion is
exactly what we were thinking, it's
exactly what we had planned; I won-
der if they had closed the doors of
Executive Council on the Minister from
Canouan, I beg your pardon, the Min-
ister from the Grenadines, maybe they
closed the doors of Executive Council
on him, they would have some justifica-
tion for it. The Chief Minister smiles as
if to say the point is well taken laughter
No, Mr. Speaker, people accuse the Chief
Minister of being cunning, you might
accuse him of certain other things
which I'm not going to do here but as
I said, he's not foolish, I can describe
him with certain other adjectives which
I won't go into at the moment but let
not the Minister for Communications
and Works think he's going to fool the
Chief Minister any more than he is
going to fool me. Laughter. Let him
not think he's going to fool the Chief
Minister or me, Mr. Speaker. After the
Chief Minister Mr. Speaker, the con-
demnation that I make against the
Chief Minister this morning is that he's
blowing hot and cold, he's come into this
Honourable House, he's said this motion
is a good motion, it's exactly what he
was thinking, we have discussed this
matter in Executive Council, we have
come to the conclusion that there are
currupt practices, we have come to the
conclusion that this Ordinance ought to
be amended, we have come to the con-
clusion that something ought to be done
and we are determined to do something

Motion for Amendment of -

but here it is this Opposition, this Op-
position is stealing a march on us and
they go and bring this motion before we
could bring it, look what those Civil Ser-
vants have done with us, they sneak out
with our cherished plans and they put
those plans right in the hands of the
Opposition. One would have thought
that the Chief Minister . .

HoN. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, when
the Member for East St. George (Inter-
ruption by members of the Opposition)
He said a lot of irrelevancies and I have
listened to this motion and I think I
should reply to it..

HoN. H. F. YOUNG: No, no, this is no
Government motion, educate him, please.
MR. SPEAKER: Honourable Members,
I would refer you to page 15, rule 27 sec-
tion 12 (b) which can give a certain
amount of food for thought. There are
motions on which a Government Minis-
ter can wind up a debate, it is a quesiton,
the whole thing when boiled down,
frankly, it is a simple matter if a tre-
mendous amount of detail is being
opened which has never been opened be-
fore, that rule may or may not come into
force and as that detail was not utilised
when the motion was brought before the
House that rule may not come in, it all
depends on the way in which the Hon-
ourable Membor for East St. George ..
HON. R. M. CATO: Let me make the
position of the Opposition abundantly
clear. We have not brought a vote of
censure against the Government, we
haven't brought a motion challenging
any act of the Government, we have
come here in the most placating manner
MR. SPEAKER: I am not giving a ruling,
I am only dra-ing the attention of Hon-
ourable Members to that rule and how
it may and may not in the circumstances

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Ordinance

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, it is a
fit and proper time to disillusion the,
Chief Minister of any hopes he might
have of replying on this motion. I have
the last say on this motion, I'm going to
make good and sure that I have the last

MR. SPEAKER: If it does not come be-
hind the rule.

HON. R. M. CATO: It doesn't come any-
way near. We haven't brought a vote of
censure'on the Government, they're the
ones who introduced the Government
and say that in the secret crevices

HON. C. L. TANmIS: Mr. Speaker, will
the member continue to debate

HON. R. M. CATO: I'm going to con-
tinue my debate, a point has arisen and
I'm dealing with it, you're not going to
tell me how to debate.

MR. SPEAKER: I would ask the Hon-
ourable Member for East St. George to
proceed with the subject matter this is
a point which might cause crossed
swords but it is not before the House at
the moment.

IION. R. M. CATO: Well I didn't hear
Mr. Speaker making any ruling and tell
the Minister to sit down that that point
doesn't arise and if in the course of my

MR. SPEAKER: As far as that particular
point is concerned, honourable member
for East St. George, whatever has been
said about it, it isn't before me for a
ruling one way or another and it couldn't
possibly be put before me until you have
finished your reply.
HoN. R. M. CATO: Now let me say that
these distractions do not put me off at
all, in fact, what the Chief Minister and

Motion for Amendment of -

his colleagues might learn is that when
you have been confining you activities
in the direction in which I have been
for the last few years, you learn to con-
centrate on three or four things at the
same time and what this little digression
has done is to give me the opportunity
to marshall some more facts and to mar-
shall some more points and deal with
them so the more they try to stifle this
debate, the longer they give me to go
on here. The point that I was making,
Mr. Speaker, when I was so rudely inter-
rupted was that the Chief Minister had
tacitly accepted the invitation which I
had put out, the feeler that I had put
out wittingly or unwittingly he had
accepted it, and he had stated a case
for me, he had dealt with the malprac-
tices and the acts of corruption, he had
conceded that there were acts of cor-
ruption. I say gentlemen, if there is a
case, if you feel as we feel on this side
that the conduct of elections has left a
lot to be desired, then let us do some-
thing about it. I have suggested, I have
taken the liberty to suggest that we
might burden the Hondurable the At-
torney General with some more work and
let him, using certain territorial legisla-
tions as his guide, draft something for us
to improve our present ordinance, or I
had suggested as an alternative that
maybe a Select Committee might be ap-
pointed which Your Honour the Spoaker,
in the course of your comments, dealt
with in passing. And then, Mr. Speaker,
having done that, the Chief Minister, to
my utter consternation, gets up and de-
liberately, calculatingly, makes this pro-
nouncement that that motion has come
from the Opposition and we're going to
vote against it, in fact' he used his mar-
ket place language and said: "I'm going
to walk stick on it." That is the sort of
attitude that he brings into the conduct
of the business of the House. Because
a motion has been introduced by the

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Ordinance

Opposition, though he appreciates that
it is good, though he is prepared to come
into this HIous: and say it is a good
motion, though he is prepared to say
that it spo t1 g h s the malpractices
mhich I, myself, have seen, j ist because
it comes from tie Oppos.tion I am going
to vote against it and I'm g)ing to in-
s,ruct my colleagues to vote against it.
VTe are going to vote against it, he says.
And taking his cue, taking the cue of
his shepherd, the very first sheep fol-
lows on, the Minister for Trace and Pro-
duction being led like a lamb to the
s:auglter -- what does he do? A very
g)od mnoticn, h says, but wo are going
to have to rote tgair.st it. Unashmed.y
aad u-aba;hedly he gets up .nd says so.
VThere is lis conscience, Mr. Speaker?
What sort of conscience doe; this man
have? And the Mirdste:- for Trade and
Produ tion has the nerve to tell us that
he himself has examined th s question,
he said, take my owr. cawe, he un-
ashamedly tell us, I went to vote but
I could only h:tve vote because I had
filled out E, form and sent it in because
my name had not been put down; he
sippo"ts the roint which I made re-
garding registration, the importance of
enumoraticn registratior. Rip Van Win-
kle, the Minister for Communications
and Work; had been sleeping at the
time, he couldn't hear, but the Minister
f3r Trade and Production Iot up and
1e mEde a point, he says, I rryself didn't
l.ave my rame on and I had to go and
f.ll out a form, that's the importance
cf the point ,hat I had irade about
enumeration and about having scrut.--
eers go around with the enunerators to
nake registration easier for people all
Around, to pre-ent people like the Min-
ister for Trade and Prodrctior from
~nving to go and fill ott foims, to pre-
vent the hundreds of them who had to
E'o ard fill oul forms. Even the Clief
Minister thought it strange that he had
to run to the Police and use up hun-

Motion for Amendment of -

dreds of forms. Hundreds of forms had
to be used up because the enumeration
was improperly done, unsatisfactorily
done, and if the steps that I had sug-
gested in passing are adopted, it will
remedy a lot of that, it would cut down
to a minimum the people who have to
do what the Minister for Trade and Pro-
duction did and was forced to do, get a
form and fill it out in order to get his
name put on. Then he told you about
the names that were left off, he didn't
tell you about the number of names
that had been put on twice; I think
other members on the other side could
tell you something about those, I think
the Member for Kingstown could tell you
something about them, his name was
put on twice and other relations of his
had their names put down twice. This
is nothing personal, that is the sort of
thing that we want to remedy and there
are quite a lot of decent citizens to say
let us remedy these things, there is no
personal aspersion in this and one would
expect honourable members on the other
side to say: but of course, it doesn't
affect me personally, it is nothing for
which I can be held responsible, not in
my position as a citizen, later on I'm
going to tell you how they could be held
responsible and how they are definitely
responsible for a lot of the chaos that
is taking place right now and all the
chaos that has led up to this motion.
Since you ask for it you will get it. I'll
tell you how you are responsible. But
the Minister for Trade and Production
says: though I have had the personal
expe-ience, though I have examined the
situation and know the hardship that
the ordinary man .and woman has to
suffer to get their names put on be-
cause I have had to go through it my-
self, I'm still going to vote against this
motion. Isn't that a corrupt practice,
Mr. Speaker? And then to add, to con-
found confusion still more, the Chief
Minister, the first speaker gets up, the

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Ordinance

Minister for Communications and Works,
not the Chief Minister, the would-be
Chief Minister, the Minister for Com-
munications and Works gets up and he
says there is no merit in the motion
whatsoever; he contradicts completely
what his chief has got up and said, he
contradicts entirely what his senior Min-
ister, the Minister for Trade and Pro-
duction has said. There is no merit in
this motion, how long ago, he says, has
the Member for East St. George dis-
covered these things? As I say, Mr.
Speaker, he must have been sleeping for
a long time otherwise he would know
how long ago, he would know that in
another part of this building certain
historic events took place not so long
ago, perhaps one of the members on his
right could educate him on this matter,
perhaps the Member for Kingstown will
tell him that if he was a member of the
party to which he now belongs at the
time he would have had to share in the
cost which the Member for Kingstown
had to pay, perhaps if he was a mem-
ber of the party at the time the member
for Kingstown would have been able to
tell him that through no fault of his
own, through no personal fault of his
but through the looseness of the machin-
ery the Member for Kingstown found
himself having to pay a substantial
amount of cost which apparently the
Minister escaped making a contribution
to. Perhaps the Member for Kingstown
would refresh his memory and tell him
that he was once a member of the Fed-
eral House of Representatives, I haven't
got the time at the moment to go into
that but perhaps his boss will enlighten
him. If he wants to know how long
ago, it was since that day, it was since
that day, Mr. Speaker, that we found out
through bitter experience, a bitter ex-
perience that is shared by other people
here, that there was a lot to be desired
in the machinery and even at that date,
Mr. Speaker, I don't know where the

Motion for Amendment of --

Member for the Grenadines was, prob-
ably in cold storage in the Grenadines
LAUGHTER but even at that date, even
before that date the Chief Minister had
been crying out about the Ordinance, I
will mention way back in 1957, we took
the matter in court in 1958. In 1957 the
People's Political Party went into power,
so when they come with their I'm
tempted to use a stronger word, Mr.
Speaker, but out of difference to parlia-
mentary niceities I'm not going to do
that. In 1957 the People's Political Party
went into power, they had been shouting
before then that the election machinery
was not proper; 1957 to '58, to '59, to '60,
to '61 and they are going to tell you
now, they are going to have the effront-
ery to come into this chamber and say
we're doing something about it. That's
what the Minister for Education and
Social Services said.

HON. S. E. SLATER: Mr. Speaker, I
would say this, I am being misquoted,
I said we have already done something
about it.

HON. R. M. CATO: I stand corrected,
Mr. Speaker, I stand corrected and that
makes it worse still. Just what have
they done about it that the Chief Min-
ister does not know about, that the Chief
Minister has to come here and say it's
a good motion, we're going to do some-
thing about it but we are going to turn
down this motion and then come back
with it, there seems to be a lot of
corruption, there seems to be a lot of
conflict within the ranks of the Goy-
ernment party. The Chief Minister is
determined to come back and do some-
thing about it. The Minister for Trade
and Production says it is a good motion
but we can't support it because it comes
from the Opposition, the Minister for
Communications and Works says its no
motion at all, the Minister for Education

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Ordinance

says: look, we have already done some-
thing about it. This demonstration, Mr.
Speaker, can only be described by one
word CARNIVAL, this is Old Mass.
Mr. Speaker, for a long time I have never
never seen such chaos. So, Mr. Speak-
er, that is the position with which. Ne
are faced. In the light of all this the
Minister for Communications tells us
we have got to enumerate the malprac-
tices and yet on his right the Minister
for Education is reminding him now,
he interrupt. me to remind him that
we have done something about this.
How could he say there are no malprac-
tices when the Minister is telling us that
they have done something about it?
What he has done still remains a mys-
tery, he still hasn't told us what they
have done. I am prepared to give way
for the Minister for Education to tell us
what is this mysterious something that
they have done, I'm prepared to take
my seat and let him tell us. What is
this mysterious thing that the Minister
for Communications does not know
about and that the Chief Minister him-
self says we're still going to do but only
when they have brought the motion
before the House. So that is the sort
of chaos that we have. He says it is
not necessary to bring a motion at this
time. When are we going to bring it?
We have had these matters in the Court,
in the highest Court of the West Indies,
the Federal Supreme Court, we have had
numerous examples of the weakness this
Ordinance exposed to the knowledge of
members opposite if they didn't know it
they ought to have known. Since then
we have had numerous demonstrations.
I told this House, Mr. Speaker, in open-
ing that I was not prepared to go into
individuals, we could have had several
members of the Opposite party arrested
and locked up, Mr. Speaker, but we re-
frained from doing it. But days after
the Election the Minister of Education -
what is he ...

Motion for Amendment of -

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, on
a point of order. Is the Honourable
Member winding up his debate or in-
troducing new matter?

MR. SPEAKER: If it is a question of
wrong doing on the part of any member
of Council I am requesting you to re-
frain from doing so because that would
be going beyond the lines.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, he
was only replying to the Member for the

HON. R. M. CATO: No, Mr. Speaker,
you can rest assured that I am not going
into that aspect of it, but you will ap-
preciate that matters which offend this
Ordinance are matters which members
of the opposite party have added, to
wittingly or unwittingly, it is not a mat-
ter which is envisaged by the terms of
this ruling.

MR. SPEAKER: You must have a sub-
stantive motion.

HON. R. M. CATO: I am not going into
the conduct of members of the opposite
side, what I'm saying is that the mem-
bers of that party, for example drove
up and down on Election Day with
symbols on their cars, unwittingly, not
knowing they were committing an of-
fence, we looked at them and said. look
at these people committing themselves,
we could have taken advantage of that,
we could have taken steps, there are a
number of instances on which we could
have taken steps for reasons which I am
not going to disclose and which we
wouldn't resort to disclose. In a num-
ber of other cases, there were conflicting
matters in the Ordinance itself and that
is the reason why this Ordinance should
be examined. So let them know clearly,
Mr. Speaker, what the position is. So

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Ordinance

there we have it, Mr. Speaker, if the
Minister would like to know for how
long, how long ago, he can know it is
before the PPP went into power, when
he was a member of the Labour Party,
he can know that it is all through the
regime of the People's Political Party
when they already knew that t:ihre were
weakness in the Ordinance. Through-
out the rest of 1957 after they were
elected, throughout the whole of 1358,
throughout the whole of 1959 and iJ60
and nothing has been done about is.
So they come here at this last moment
and tell us we are doing something about
it or we have done something about it.
Let them bring further evidence of that,
Mr. Speaker, and let them correct this
confusion in their ranks and not have
the Chief Minister saying one thing, tihe
Minister for Trade and Product on out
of his loyalty supporting him, the Min-
ister for Communications and Works
saying another thing and the Minister
for Education a completely different
thing. And when the Minister for Com-
munications and Works is going to set
himself up as an authority to enquire
whether I am winding up the debate or
whether I am opening up new matter,
why doesn't he enquire from one of his
colleagues or somebody what the proce-
dure is in this matter instead of making
an exhibition of himself by bobbing up
and talking nonsense? te can't see the
point, he said throughout his entire con-
tribution to this debate, Mr. Speaker,
what do we hear from this Minister -
I can't see the point, this motion was
brought and I'm going to read it. So
he reads it out and says he can't see the
point. If the Minister can't see the
point why is he blaming me for his in-
ability to see the point? When the Chief
Minister was reading this motion I
offered to give certain explanations,
when he made reference to the free and
honest elections, I offered to give certain
explanations and when the Minister for

Il[otio.~ for Amsndnent of -

Education and L~ocial Se;vice;, spcke I
could sje how necessary that explana-
tion might havy been. I feel rather
uniind, Mr. Speaker, making any ref-
erence to tae kimister 'or iJducation.
Yoa will observe that we-c.idn't level an
questions a hira today and we have
de erred th. mccion which cealt with
his Ministry ant, hit portfolio. I have
to correct ..im on this point left he
makes the tame niscake agail. A free
e section doesn't imply that you have
people walk up to the ;ollin.g station;
and cast a u3ve. A f'ee e.ecticn involve,
someth..ng f rther than t at, some;hinE:
deeper thai. that. A free and honest
electiLr. refers to a democratic election
in which people are n(t deprived o.i
their rights by certain machlinery. I;
doesn't .mean that you are not being
tied. A word to the wise is sufficient;
and I think tha; out of his wisdom the
Minister is going to correct himself. 'I
might say that the Ch.ef Minister i,3
going to find it necessary tc establish
a night school for his colleagues. Mr.
Speaker, the members opposite have al-
ready indic ted what their stand is on
this motior. Ir. so far as 1 am con-
cerned, I think it is a pitiable, regret-
able incident, a pitiable .nd 'egrettabla
stand 2n th;ct men w.o are charged with
the re poncibility that they have been
charge w th should c me into this
House and deliberately aad coolly make
the annourcetnnt that ;he notion has
merit in it that the motion is exactly
what they have been thinking but in
fact they themselves intend to do some-
thing about; it but out of spite, out of
malice, merely because it comes from the
Opposition, no matter what benefit it
might have beer. to the people tha; they
are supposed to repre ent, they are
going to v3te against i;. But that is
what we have noticed. This is not the
first motion we have brought here, Mr.
Speaker, I made reference this morning
to the attit ide of the Government mem-

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Ordinance

bers with regard to the manner in which
the papers were laid. When a number
of papers were laid here and they were
laid by the Attorney General, I sug-
gested t:.lat the papers should be la.id
by the Minister responsible for the par-
ticular portfolio, to meet with smiles ,)f
derision from the opposite side, to meet
with their laughter, and then they turn
around and laid the papers as I su,;-
gested they should be laid under our
Constitution. We have had motions in
this House before, introduced by tie
Opposition to be defeated and turned
down by the majority of the Govern-
ment and then they turn back and
bring it before the House again, pe:-
haps in slightly altered form. The e
are a number of matters, Mr. Speaker,
which we would like to bring in in the
interest of the masses, in the interest
of the people of St. Vincent, there are
a number of matters which we feel the
Government members should already
have introduced here. An entire session
of this House has gone by and not
a step has been taken by the Govern-
ment to introduce a single motion, a
single bill, not a single bill has been in-
troduced; look through an Order Paper
throughout the life of this House and
you will see not a single bill introduced
by the members opposite in the interest
of the people of St. Vincent, the entire
sitting of the House would collapse if
the Opposition did not introduce certain
matters there. And I mention this be-
cause I want to see members of the
Government get alive, I invite them to
go through their manifesto and start
introducing some measures in the in-
terest of the people who put them here.
There are a number of matters in the
different portfolios which need attention,
and we would bring them and try to
help the Ministers, but if this is the atti-

Motion for Amendment of -

tude which is going to be adopted we
would be defeating the very purpose
which we want to put into effect. So
let me invite them to bring them. Once
they have merit in them they are going
to get the. full support of the Opposi-
tion, as we told them on the very first
day of the opening of this House. Once
they introduce something that has merit
in it we are casting aside party lines
and we are four square behind the Gov-
ernment, but as long as they continue
to adopt this attitude, we will have no
alternative but to oppose them' and to
expose them and to use every means at
our disposal to see that they toe the
Mr. Speaker, I can only make a final
appeal to iie members opposite to even
at this stage demonstrate some princi-
ple, demonstrate that their character,
their sense of responsibility, their loyalty
tj their people and their duty to their
country would not allow them to be
side-tracked from doing their duty in
this matter, a duty which they have
already told us they have seen clearly
and unmistakably. Let them put aside
the temptation to score a point on the
Opposition and do the right thing .by
the people of St. Vincent.
IION. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, I
have raised a question. The question is
that a motion has been brought to this
House, extraneous matters have been
raised which were not raised in the de-
bate proper and new matter has been
introduced on the conduct of the Gov-
ernment, the Standing Rules and Orders
have ruled and I would ask you to turn
to the rule.
MR. SPEAKER: I may say that the par-
ticular rule reads as follows; Honour-
able Members: Page 15 Section 12(b) -

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Ordinance

"When such reply has been made no
other.Member may speak provided that
leave shall be granted to an Official
Member or a Minister to wind up a
debate on a Private Mem er's motion
which is critical of the Government or
reflects adversely on, or is calculated to
bring discredit, upon the Gove::nment
or a Government officer." I think the
Honourable Member for East St. George
did mention that there was a tremen-
dous conflict between'the different mem-
bers of Government on what they were
saying about the alteration of the Elec-
tion Ordinance and there was a question
of one member thinking that it was fit
and proper to be altered, one member
stating that something had been done
on it already and another member
stating that there was no necessity for
any steps to be taken. There was a tre-
mendous conflict there and it hEs been
commented upon by the Opposition to
the fullest extent. Quite frankly, I am
of the opinion that that would be criti-
cal of the Government and that the
Honourable Chief Minister deserves the
chance to wind up the discrepancies
raised by the Honourable Member for
East St. George. I am of the opinion
that I would be compelled to rule in
favour of that proviso being used.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: But, Mr. Speaker,
you were in this chair and you have
ears like all of us. What my friend was
saying is what they themselves said this
morning and you know it's truth, there
is no discredit to the Government, it is
something above party politics, he was
only answering what the Ministers
themselves said.

MR. SPEAKER: If the matter is subject
to criticism and the Honourable Chief
Minister can clarify it and avoid dis-
crepancies as a result of what the Hon-
ourable Member said, he should be given
an opportunity to do so.

Motion for Amendment of -

HON. R. M. CATO: Can you refer me
to this ruling by the Minister?

MR. SPEAKER: It is rule 27 section 12
subsection (b).

HON. R. M. CATO: Does that "official
member" mean a Minister?

MR. SPEAKER: "'To an official Member
or a Minister" those words "or a Minis-
ter" were inserted by an amendment
som3 time ago.

HON. R. M. C'ATO: May I draw Mr.
Speakers's attention to this "on a Private
Member's motion which is critical of
the Government" What remarks and
wh,,t comment arose in this motion
which causes this particular section to
come into operation, bringing censure
on the Government?

eR. SPEAKER: I am of the honest
opiliion that it is critical of the Gov-
ernment because there is an allegation
that Ministers are having three different
vievrs on the matter and if the Honour-
able Chief Minister desires to make any
kind of reply saying whether these dif-
ferences can be wiped out I can't refuse
him the opportunity.

HON. B. F. DIAs: Mr. Speaker, as re-
gards the amendment bringing in the
words "or Minister" the official amend-
ment, sir, is 16/9/56.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, your
ruling which I have respect for at any
time doesn't seem to be clear to me and
I don't stand here like a little boy work-
ing under anybody, I stand here as a
member, I represent over two thousand
people from South Leeward and it seems
to me that democracy is going to be
killed here.

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Ordinance

MR. SPEAKER: The Speaker has to give
a ruling which I honestly consider to
fit the context here.

(Hon. H. F. Young, seated, continues
making comments)

MR. SPEAKER: I would ask the Hon-
ourable Member to control himself.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, it is
quite clear that the Honourable Member
for South Leeward knew that this rule
would always apply, but he is trying now
to pull the wool over the eyes of this
HouFe and I believe that you yourself
wouldn't .

HON. H. F. YOUNG: On a point of
order, I was named here by your Brath-
waite, it can be done again.

MR. SPEAKER: I would like the Hon-
ourable Member for South Leeward --
would he please control himself, we must
abide by the rule.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Not when the pro-
edure is being carried to this extent. It
has to happen sometimes, that's why
men die and make sacrifices.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, this
rule always applied in this Honourable
House. The members thought that they
would come here and make irrelevant
and sweeping points and there would be
no reply and now the Member for South
Leeward is making a blunderbuss .

MR. SPEAKER: What I am asking the
HI-onourable Chief Minister is to deal
with any point.raised in the reply of the
Honourable Member for East St. Georee.
You can't very, well go outside of that.

/HON. E. T. JOSHUA: We are saying
about irrelevancies and contradictions
raised by the Member for St. George

Motion for Amendment of -

East. There is no such contradiction,
sir, this motion was a Morton's Fork, a
trap fcr the unwary, coming here with
a vie- to making sweeping charges,
serious allegations and then not to have
it debated.

The member himself said nothing on
the motion, merely tb talk about elec-
ticns not being free and corruption and
in doing so he lambasted the Govern-
ment talking about corrupt practices
and what not in this House this morn-
ing. In accordance, not with our prac-
tice here, but according to the Standing
Rules and Orders we should reply. What
the Minister for Communications and
Works did state, sir, is really debating
the motion in substance. If I in out-
lining the points raised referred to one
or two points of the motion, that's not
anything fundamental for him to come
up and state in support of the word free
or corrupt charged by the motion, mean-
ingless in some parts, fooling the public

HON. H. F. YOUNG: He. didn't -fool the
public any rore than you, on a point of
order, what t ,pe of aspersion is he
using? Why don't you ask him to stick
to the point and be relevant? Let him
reply to the discrepancies of Govern-
ment, not cast aspersions.

MR. SPEAKER: I have given a lot of
latitude to both sides.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: When the Mem-
ber for St. George East spoke and said
he could have arrested members of the
opposite party was the member for St.
George East referring to the Ministers
of Government here or was he referring
to the public at large? These vague
uterances, Mr. Speaker, should really
not be left on record because he has
really been hurling and imputing im-
proper motives at the Government side
and that there is confusion in their

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Legislative Council (Elections) Ordinance

ranks. There is no confusion here, there
was never any confusion, there were cer-
tain points technically and the real in-
terpretation of the motion strictly that
was expressed and made by Ministers
as they had a right to do. That was
not an expression of digression of. the
motion as a whole because the motion
was often read, it was read to the point
that it was said:

"Whereas it is desirable that, Elections
should be conducted in such a manner
as to give true expression to the wishes
of the people." The Member for the
Grenadines, the Minister for Commt'ni-
cations and Works asked specifically
whether we who are assembled here as
the elected representatives of the people
whether we were falsely elected, whether
we were elected by coercion or force or
whether we are here by fraud. The
question is specifically mentioned in the
motion and to speak on different aspects
of the motion the members had a right
and I endorse their attitude on this type
of motion by the Opposition is always
critical of everything we have done, the
same adverse comments are always
made here so we are satisfied in the
scheme of things that this type of talk
to take it for what it is worth to keep
the business of the House from being
stampeded in this way. Then we are
charged with responsibility. We are sat-
isfied as Government that this motion
is unnecessary because even from the
burden of this motion laws are quite
adequate with one or two exceptions.
If you talk about scrutineers that would
be a. new thing but we had this in mind
from the very beginning we always
said there should be someone beside the
enumerators for some of them some-
times went out and didn't meet the
people and they didn't take their names.
If you adopt the system of scrutineers
it would only mean that in addition
(inaudible) could be made accessory put-

Motion for Amendment of --

ting them there but when the Member
for East St. George makes sweeping
statements about free election and cor-
ruption it would mean that the regula-
tions as they stand now are so inade-
quate that . (inaudible) We are not
in Venezuela where a man goes up the
road shouting for his party and when
he comes down they riddle him with
billets. This is what this member had
in mind when he brought' this motion.
The Regulations or Rules of the Legisla-
tie Order in Council are such, Mr.
Speaker, that there is nothing wrong
with them, they are safeguarding the
human element for if A, B or C were
given a job and the ordinance under
which they were working was wrong,
I referred to the fact this morning of
publications, Election publications in
St. Vincent because we have no part of
our Elections Order in Council which
says that the printer or editor of the
publication is supposed to .........
(inaudible) and we are going to amend
our Elections Order in Council making
it quite adequate and we shall not go on
record, I repeat not as supporting the
motion and the Government would vote
stienuously against the motion.

The question was put and resolved in
if: 2 3gat:-v3 ,c! House dividing Ayes 3,
Nces 7, with 2 abstentions as follows:


Hon. R. M. Cato

SH. F. Young

L, C. Latham


Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry Motion for


Hon. E. T. Joshua
,, H. A. Haynes
SC. L. Tannis
,, S. E. Slater
SMrs. I. I. Joshua
SA. C. G. Allen
,, B. F. Dias



Hon. C. deB. Barnard
A. C. Hadley

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I'm
going to read from this "Parliamentary
Government" some of the general prin-
ciples of democracy.
MR. SPEAKER: If it is going to be a
part of your motion.


motion first.

the motion first.

That's my pre-

should move the

Yes, I will read

BE IT RESOLVED that a Commission
of Enquiry be held into the function-
ing and operation of the Public Works
Department of the territory.

That's all the motion. "That democracy
means freedom of the citizen to think,
say, read and write what he pleases and
such fundamental freedoms as those of
worship, movement, occupation, and
association, and freedom from arrest
save in order to stand trial for an offence

prescribed by law. That Government
shall be representative and changes of
Government shall be by consent. That
there shall be a periodic appeal to the
sovereignty of the people. That differ-
ence and criticism are not only toler-
ated but encouraged." Underline that-
"That difference and criticism are not
only tolerated but encouraged. Democ-
racy assumes that each member of the
community has something to contribute
to government. An opposition must be
free to organize itself so that a respon-
sible alternative government is avail-
able." I read this part to let you know
that we are still governed and we are
still governed under certain principles
of democracy. Mr. Speaker, sir, the
Public Works Department and this is
the Estimates of St. Vincent for the
year 1961 is quite a large department
and I see my friend from the Grena-
dines smiling because those of us from
1961 saw it grow as we have seen our
kids grow and every business place in
St Vincent has a right to take stock or
inventory of any estate owner or any-
body who is running business and when
I moved this motion I want to make it
abundantly clear that I have not moved
this motion to cast any aspersions on
your Government or any particular Min-
ister but if they themselves are respon-
sible and if they themselves think that
a large department like that under their
control they should at some time or the
other call for certain investigations as
time goes on. We have here in the
Public Works Department Expenditure
Head E224 the Superintendent of Works,
the Assistant Office Superintendent, an
accountant, seven clerks, a messenger,
store keeper, etc. and that reached to
a tidy sum of one hundred and seventy-
two thousand, one hundred and seventy-
three dollars, that, sir, represents only
salaries. That represents the men who
have to take care of our taxpayers' funds
in the respective departments water,

Thursday, 12th October, 19:1

Public Works Enquiry

roads, etc. Then we go on to Public
Works what you call Recurrent and you
have the question of maintenance and
minor improvements on buildings fifty-
seven odd thousand dollars and roads,
etc., and water supply and that is five
hundred and forty-one thousand dollars.
It is not finished yet. Then we go on to
Public Works Extraordinary where any
department, sir, as regards whether it is
social services or trade and production
that has anything to construct or any
building, the Public Works Department
now being the machinery has to put
that into operation. I'm making this
point to show you how important a de-
partment it is and when the staff of
such a large department, and that isn't
all sir, I haven't gone to C.D. & W.
Grants as my friend the present Min-
ister would know. The allocations from
C.D. & W. for feeder roads, etc., is a big,
tidy sum again. You can well see that
a department like this with a Superin-
tendent of Public Works and with, an
Assistant Superintendent of Public
Works-I want to make it quite clear, I
am not speaking how against the partic-
ular gentleman, it's a question of the
principle, I have nothing against the
present assistant but I have to bring cer-
tain relevant fact since I have outlined
to give the importance of this depart-
ment, we have seen the Superintendent
some time ago left, a man qualified, an
engineer, we have seen another superin-
tendent take up the post, wehave seen
the Assistant who was Mr. Brereton -
may God rest him where he is today-a
gentleman who tried his best, but what
happened? You are taking a builder, a
man who was an old construction man,
a foreman, there are no two ways about
it, and you have placed him in an admin-
istrative capacity then you have taken
some subhead of a department in Dom-
inica, unqualified, and put him in charge
of the Public Works, then if the head is

Motion for

weak then everything must crumble.
Not too long ago when you had several
changes in your Government, I see my
friend the Member for North Leeward
smiling, he was then Minister for Com-
munication:; and Works and your hum-
ble servant from the Grenacines came
in and he was put into that portfolio
and I have learnt authoritatively, I
don't know if it is because he had a
better brain, but I must say, Mr. Speaker
that I learnt authoritatively that the
Member for the Grenadiaes who is now
in the post has to scratch his read many
a day and all is not well in the depart-
ment and I can go on to say that if
this Government in a rr.otion like this,
sir, goes aj;ains; this motion to call in
an investigation in a cepar;ment like
that they themselves know something
is wrong then they are aiding and abet-
ting corruption, then the changes where
we should have the respect if going to
a Minister, because the Ad-ninistratcr
is gone, to bring difficuties and waste
of taxpayers' fu.:ds and thing,, that they
can't see, b cause they cen't s e al, then
if they car. see that ani do:a't call an
enquiry, than God have mercy on the:r
souls. Mr. Speaker, I heve in my hand
a Report of a Commission of E:aquiry
into the Fublic Works DepErtment in
the year 1)54. To show yot that th.s
is not new, in 1954 the:'e was a Com-
mission of Enq.iry and MVr. Bryan then
was the Chairnran, I will just read the
recommend atior.s of that Commission of
Enquiry and to show you that you need
another enquiry. It is an official book
which was laid here and everyone was
given a copy and Is t:ere any objec-
tion? It is a Council Paper, it was laid.
"The Administrative division of the De-
partment headed by a principall Clerk,
and working 4 under the direct supervision
of the "Director" of Works should con-
trol the following activities." You can
well see at the time the magnitude of

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

the department having grown to such an
extent there was a recommendation to
have a Director of Works and in this
book there is a diagram The Director
of Works wou'd be purely a technical
man and in t:e office there would be
zn office superintendent who would be
carrying out administrative duties so as
to prevent that engineer from taking
this day to day side of things. This
was 1954. These were the recommend-
stions in 1954.

Hon. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, the
Member f)r South Leeward is quoting
from a document and he is misquoting
the recommendations made by this Com-
rlissic(n of Enqairy. I have a copy here
before me. "'he Head of Department
(f Pl.blic Works slouli be an Officer
selected for h s acministra ive ability;
he need rot have any technical quali-
fications, ;houf;h scme technical know-
ledge wou:d be an assel." IHe need not
have any technical qualifications as
Director ol Wo.ks and he is saying that
the Director of Works should have
technical qualifications.

HOn. H. F. YouNG: I arr. saying he
thouli h~,ve technical knowledge and
what I air. saying is that they have not
implemented a post of Director of Pub-
lic Works whether he be technical or
non technical that's the point. "The
Cost and Vote Accounting should both
be undertaken in respect of a range of
jobs by the same clerk." "The Director
of works should have a private secre-
tary ....... a Book of Standards, a
properly c.ualified Estimator . . the
handing costs incurred at Arnos Vale
Depot" ard what not and h.e could get
down to these "acts. the electrical stores,
the material -- and in this Commission
of Enquiry one of the most appalling
things in it which I wouldn't read here
today is that they found corruption at
the then T.B. home with materials. I

Motion for

will come to it later. 'And at that time
they were building the T.B. Home, Mr.
Speaker, and at that time the contractor,
according to this Commission of Enquiry,
found materials, sewerage bowls a
waste of money. The Commission of
Enquiry drew up a diagram, Telephones
Division, Administrative Division and so
on; the Commission of Enquiry recom-
mended that there should be a trans-
port officer, we also put that in, but that
transport officer, according to the Com-
mission of Enquiry and according to the
authorities who implemented that post
he was supposed to have knowledge of
vehicles, was supposed to know about
the running of the truck or trucks be-
cause today we seem to be looking at
some small things and the bigger things
go down the drain. The amount of
vehicles that the Public Works had and
the cost of those vehicles If you are
going to appoint a transport officer then
the transport officer should be technical
enough I have worked abroad already
to know when to send that truck to be
serviced, to know when the oil is low, to
know when there is a knock that it
should go into the garage, but no, they
take a civil servant in another bracket
because of his salary and put him there
without any technical knowledge of
vehicles whatsoever. As I am saying,
I'm not blaming the present Govern-
ment and they send a man to be trained
in income tax and when he comes back
they put him in Social Services or some
such place, so you have it all around
where you have misfits and I believe the
breaking down of this department is due
to a lot of not having the right people
in the right positions and I believe that
a department like this that is so vital
to the life of everyone in this country
and this community should need period-
ical checking by the Minister, should
need a capable head of department who
is strong, officers who should be free, I'm
coming now to the point, to do their

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

job and to fire people who don't work
instead of being encouraged by Minis-
ters, instead of Ministers of this Govern-
ment using public funds for putting up
walls on private people's homes.

MR. SPEAKER: NO, no, no, if there is
any allegation by the Honourable Mem-
ber for South Leeward that any Minis-
ter of Government is guilty of miscon-
duct he can only say it by way of a
substantive motion.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I crave
your indulgence on one point. I have
brought a motion here to enquire into a
department that is so vital to this coun-
try, to prove that my motion is right I
am compelled to quote the malpractices,
I don't know which Minister, I don't
know which department and you have to
prove these things. I have facts here to
read to you that would hurt your head
of the waste of funds to individuals and
if I can't do it I will walk away and I
won't present that motion, it would
have no meaning.

MR. SPEAKER: It is a question of what
the ruling is. Any allegation of miscon-
duct has to be operated by way of a sub-
stantive motion against the individual
concerned failing that it can't be be-
fore the House.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Anyway, Mr. Speak-
er, I will say the department; does that
suit you? Some person concerned, let
us say the sky

MR. SPEAKER: You cannot be specific
without a substantive motion.
HON. H. F. YOUNG: Well, I like to be
specific, especially when it's the truth.
The department that is entrusted with
the taxpayers' funds, Public Works De-
partment the department that is sup-
posed to do a lot for this country, we find
certain Ministers of Government inter-

fering with the regular working of that
department by virtue of politics actually
sending a list of names to be fired, poor
people who probably did not vote, names
of road drivers to be taken off the list,
total discrimination, we find walls are
being built for Mr. X. Y. Z. which I can
take you in the morning if you want in
my car and show you, we find in a
democratic state after the elections the
Ministers of Government have a right
to attend to the constituency whether
it voted for them or not like my friend
who used to holler for the Grenadines
and he was quite right; we find that
because of democracy no Minister has
any right to interfere with the day to
day job of a department, his duty is to
set policies and that department then
carries the policies out. Rather, we find
Mr. Speaker, that a little boy named
Duff James, I can tell has name, who
is connected with the PPP can go down
to Layou and say to the road driver
fire that poor girl, she's a Labourite,
comes Up to Mr. Dalrymple the head of
the department and he or she is fired.
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: protests: (inaudi-

MR. SPEAKER: If there is a question of
any suggestion of Mr. Dalrymple being
guilty of misconduct, getting a person
fired, if there is any implication one
way or another, it should not be except
through the proper channels.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I am
proving a case where this department
has completely been disorganised, dis-
cipline has gone because the people who
are responsible, like the road overseers
cannot see that the gangs carry out
their work and money is going down the
drain and they won't stop me until I'm
finished. I have facts to read out here
and names to call who are hired and
who spend the money and that is why
I want an investigation and I spoke to

Public Works Enquiry

Motion for

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

the Minister, I am not blaming him, he
has just taken over and the truth will
stand up like a piece of cork, I am going
to speak the truth and if I can't carry
on this motion by bringing facts I will
walk out and I will go to my people on
the mike and I am allowed to expose
everything in this country.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem-
ber for South Leeward can bring all the
facts but he must not criticise a Gov-
ernment officer.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: I have not started
that, I like to respect you, Mr. Speaker,
I have been in Parliaments where there
is elasticity you don't get up every min-
ute like a little school boy, I have been
in parliaments and seen men debate all

MR. SPEAKER: I am here to see that
there is no possibility of any Govern-
ment officer ...

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, sir,
you are assuming, I'm not attacking Mr.
Dalrymple. I was saying that this boy,
Duff James, was able to fire a poor girl
in the road, actually fire her and the
driver obeyed him, the girl came up to
Mr. Dalrymple because he is the head
of the department. Duff James knows
about too many things that are going on.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: On a point of ex-
planation. Duff James does not work
with the Government, why are we hav-
ing all of these allegations here?

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Duff James is
working with the PPP office and that is
to show you just what is going on in
this country. And you are afraid of the

HON. C. L. TENNIS: Mr. Speaker, I
would like to interrupt for a while. The

Motion for
Member for South Leeward is stating a
fact, now it just shows you that the
Member for South Leeward knows that
there is a Ministerial Government in
charge of a country's affairs and that
there is a Ministry of Labour, if there-
fore, Mr. Speaker, he is making a state-
ment of fact, that matter would be
brought to the attention of the appro-
priate Minister.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: I am stating a
fact. When I went up to Mr. Dalrymple
and represented the case, the overseer
was told to put the girl back to work
because he vwas shocked and Mr. Speaker
could remember some time ago we had
the question of two road drivers at
Barrouallie and the answer is that this
is the policy of the PPP Government and
that policy means this, that the humble
man's job must be taken away from him,
fire those who are not with us, put those
in cha ge of the gang who are with us
and then we will have the monopoly.
Isn't that a disgrace? And that subver-
sive action was going on, but since the
Ministerial System eixsts and it is a full
fledged part:, this is what happens, sir,
that the road overseer is scared of his
job because they are going into a higher
bracket and then they have a false hold
on the poor innocent man, that is going
on in my country. I have been repre-
senting: people here for years and some
of the people who stood up openly, I
like them sometimes better, some of the
people who didn't vote for me are my
best friends and I can't see in a poor
country like this in a Ministerial system
that is supposed to be impartial, that
this type of stuff is going on and when
I get up here, I believe the Minister
doesn't know and you encourage that.
Well I have had the pleasure of being
the secretary of that Labour Party
and I have to walk upstairs because
I like results, I don't like "commess", if

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

I can go to a humble person and get
results I don't go any further, if I can
play my Jack and kill a Ten I don't take
the King, I leave the King for the Queen.
So when I get results below I leave my
reserve. I know there are certain small
things in a department that is why I
quoted salaries, it would not be worth
one cent if we have men running a big
department for a Minister or his Per-
manent Secretary to meet the driver,
if there is anything, call in the Head of
Department. We have an example with
Brother Gairy in Grenada, he calls in
his Heads of Departments weekly or
monthly and has discussions and let the
orders pass down from the responsible
men. Mr. Speaker, when they do that
they created chaos in the country, the
people who are supposed to do a day's
job and when they were supposed to
get two miles of road or half a mile you
only get a few yards because nobody
can speak to them now. Not even the
road overseer himself because they can-
not be fired because we have a watch-
dog, that is what I am reporting to this
House. I will go on to tell you of an-
other instance-one Prescod from Eves-
ham, my friend here sent him down to
me. Mr. Prescod is employed at the
stone crusher, Mr. Speaker, as a watch-
man; Mr. Prescod worked with Public
Works for years and I understand that
he is a very good man in his particu-
lar line. He got injured and he was
advised by some lawyer, quite rightly'
because in those days the compensa-
tion was not so much, that instead
of taking this money you had better
take regular job, so they gave him a
regular job instead of compensating
him. That man was put to watch a
stone crusher because it was alleged -
and when I read this it was alleged
that a lot of wrong things were going
on here. So the then Superintendent
got another watchman in the day and
in the night. During that night three

Motion for
men were seen taking away the mat-
erials from the compound, the man
rightly said: You can't do that. I am in
charge, I have to hand over in the morn-
ing. Who sent you for that?An officer
at the Public Works. Big research! The
officer who was above him who was a
checker was responsible for sending
these men. The next morning three
pieces of scantling were going off, he
couldn't speak to them because the offi-
cer above him eventually got him fired.
Instead of locking up the men and
having them taken by the police the
poor man who did his job was put out
of his job. So a few days ago he came
to me and I walked up the steps to Mr.
Dalrymple again and when I told him
my side they had paid this man for four
days, he had a wife and children, held
out his job to the limit, they then called
Mr. Mackie and gave him another job
as a Road Driver and I wouldn't like to
call the superior officer's name, he is
still there, he wasn't fired but that man
was out of a job for a week until I made
representation. That is the state of
affairs that is going on now in the
Public Works. Another point, there is
weakness in the department, during the
Election the Honourable Member for
North Windward (she stays there look-
ing at me), was able to use the Public
Wurks jeep with men hired by Govern-

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, I
warn -

MR. SPEAKER: The only way any Hon-
ourable Member of this Council can do
that is by way of a substantive motion.

HON. H. F. YOUNG. Mr. Speaker, I don't
take this as a fact. I am saying that
the department, the public service, that
the vehicle is supposed to be for the
public, for the taxpayers, for the de-
partment officers, I am trying to prove

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

my motion that prior to the election an
Honourable Member of this House was
using that vehicle, I am saying the de-
partment had no right to use the vehicle
except on business.

MR. SPEAKER: If there is any connec-
tion with the enquiry that point could
be dealt with fully but where it is a
member of Government or an Honour-
able Member of the Opposition anything
of a specific nature against anyone,
Government or Opposition or any of
the Honourable Nominated Members, I
would always disallow it.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, I
would like to get the position clear.
What I understood was being suggested
by my colleagues is that if the Public
Works Department had permitted the
use of their vehicle in the Windward
district am I to understand that is
something not to be debated in this

MR. SPEAKER: I would have agreed if
the Honourable Member for East St.
George put it that way but the moment
you start naming names I must object
because this is contrary to the rules.

HON. H.. F. YOUNG: Thank you, Mr.
Speaker, I will have to do a lot of re-
straining. Each of these papers has a
lot of irregularities. They will be read
out in due course and, as to the racket,
you will hear about it in due course and
the terminal building. Do you want to
hear that? Go and hide your face and
go down to the Grenadines.

HON. C. L. TENNIS: Rose -
MR. SPEAKER: Would the Honourable
Member concentrate on his subject step
by step and avoid personalities as far
as members of this Council are con-
cerned. There is a rule that you mustn't
attack except by substantive motion.

Motion for

HON. C. L. TENNIS: Mr. Speaker, I
crave leave of the House to let the Hon-
ourable Member know that this state-
ment he made just now should be taken
back. If he continues to impute im-
proper motives in this House about rack-
ets I suggest that he take it back.

MR. SPEAKER: I have told the Honour-
able Member to refrain from any such
things. I am not prepared to counten-
ance those comments.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I am
trying to prove' to this House that is
the reason I started off, without blam-
ing any Government, any Ministers on
that side. Our listeners would be glad
to have some information, I am not say-
ing they are directly responsible because
the Minister for Education and Social
Services can't stay here and know that
any teacher isn't doing his job, it needs
somebody to investigate it, don't take
more than you can carry. I had people
working in the same Public Works De-
partment who gave me reports, people
who are fed up, honest minded people,
people in the department itself. Natu-
rally, they were fed up with the corrup-
tion and interference.

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Would you please
MR. SPEAKER: Please proceed.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I was
going on to say to prove my motion that
we need a commission of enquiry and
you know, sir, I would have thought that
my Honourable friend who now holds
this responsibility and has just taken
over, because if I go to Mount Bentinck
tomorrow to take over a shop, the first
thing I would do is to make an inven-
tory and let the other chap turn over to
me so many packs of cigarettes, so many
bottles of rum, if I just take over and
go in I might be taking over and I fig-

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

ure that by virtue of his training, I look
upon him as a chap who has reasonable
education, I figure he would welcome
this motion and to hear the exposure
of what was going on that he has never
heard of. I thought he would have
taken up a different attitude because at
no time am I levelling this at you at all
and you should welcome if not a com-
mission of enquiry, some investigation or
discipline for what is going on, we can't
carry on like this. Yes, Mr. Speaker, to
prove to this House and to the honour-
able gentlemen opposite it seems to me
that I will be forced to draw reference
and to speak the truth and I am appeal-
ing to you to bear with me a little bit,
if I go too far I am quite willing to stop
but I really couldn't debate this motion
this evening unless I exposed otherwise
I wouldn't any my duty ir. exposing it
is to put a stop to it. I am not censur-
ing the Government nor the Minister
and I would like the Minister not to aid
and abet.

MR. SPEAKER: I would like the Hon-
ourable Member to know that there are
two rules and the question of Govern-
ment officials they cannot be named and
particularly as matters can be quoted
when particularising r e g a r d i n g the
specific individual concerned that would
be a matter for a commission of enquiry
but we would be more or less anticipat-
ing the findings of the commission of
enquiry by naming names of that nature
even if it was not against the rules of
the Council.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: I wonder if I can
get it from the other side that they have
a commission of enquiry 'I will stop any
aspersions right now. Can you give us
the assurance?

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, for
the information of the Opposition I in-
tend to oppose the motion.

Motion for

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Then, Mr. Speaker,
we go ahead. Mr. Speaker, sir, some-
times you are forced to keep your party
business in and sometimes by virtue of
the profession you are supposed to, but
this is one time when your Public Works
Department, this is one time when I
have a different view to my friend who
is now holding the portfolio unless he
believes he can do it himself little by
little in his office. This is an extensive
department with tentacles spread out,
my friend doesn't know certain parts of
St. Vincent; when I say that, I'm not
insulting him, by virtue of being in the
Grenadines, well I think I know a little
more. So, Mr. Speaker, now that I have
got it from him that he intends to op-
pose this motion we will continue to
state the corruption and it seems as if
the policy I will continue to bulldoze
and every month I will come here and
keep exposing. I thought that this
motion would have been settled once
and for all and correct these malprac-
tices because, let me get on a higher
level. It's a big department, no man is
perfect, it has got out of hand by cer-
tain people resigning. But why did Mr.
Smith resign, why? My friend from
North Leeward knows why. Interfer-
ence-one would think, Mr. Speaker, that
a policy that this Government to set up
water schemes that would get funds for
water scheme What happened to the
South Leeward water scheme some time
ago when six'.y thousand pounds was
filtered away through bad supervision?
What happened to the Airport when they
took some water engineer and put him
there until he spent so much and you had
to change him? Is that true or not that
the same Government found out that
here was a man who was a water engin-
eer and they were using him and after
thousands of dollars had gone. We all
know too well the contracts which were
given for the Airport, from a shepherd
to a king, we know too well that there


Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

are certain gentlemen driving around in
a big. car when a humble man has to
pay income tax because of contracts
given at that Airport. Mr. Speaker; we
all know too well, the Honourable Mem-
ber for North Leeward knows what I am
saying that is why I am saying that
across the table you were wrong. You
have. to make a check because you are
responsible for the people, take a check
and be honest enough to say you are
going to take a check. Mr. Railton the
present development Engineer told me in
my house at Layou some time ago in
the presence of the then Minister, look
at him there, that certain men he
wouldn't see hired back there to my
surprise they were hired because he
found them interfering. When I stand
here I do not stand to bring the Chief
Minister to any ridicule, I stand here to
tell you that by virtue of your constitu-
tion you are responsible for a big de-
partment and something should be done
right now with it. You want me to say
more? And you get up like a little piggy
head and say that you are going to
oppose something that you should be
glad to hear about? Mr. Speaker, no
wonder mean to say you have lost all
decency. You were just at Bequia all
the time in your store and I am. speak-
ing about what was going on last year
and Mr. Minister are you supposed to be
in charge or you are going to rise there
like some pet cock and tell me that you
are going to oppose because your Minis-
ter of Public Works was a You are
supposed to be responsible for the de-
partment. Sit down, man, and hide your
HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr .Speaker, I rise
on a point of order
MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem-
her fer South Leeward is branching off
into the personal elenr'mnt. I think that
he should confine himself to the matter
under consideration.

Motion for

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Yes, contracts an
over the place, contracts that the poor
road driver himself there are over-
seers, then there is the road similar
to Mr. Durrant, the senior officers, but
there are road overseers throughout this
island and each of them had certain
areas and districts some of the roach
overseers, Mr, Speaker don't even hire
the men, they sometimes see them work-
ing and they ask the boys, there are
contracts given, they are forced to sign
claims that they don't know anything
about. You want me to call names now?
Mrs. Patterson was employed as time-
keeper for a gang at Stubbs but she
was never there and she was always in
Mrs. Joshua's office, the office of the
then Minister for Social Services. Mrs.
Brathwaite from Georgetown was em-
ployed as a labourer in a gang while
at the same time engaged in selling at
the market.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, I am
giving a warning, the sweeping and
wrong statements in this House, I won't
stand for it.

MR. SPEAKER: There are allegations
outside the scope of a few exceptions, if
there is a question of improper conduct.

oxN. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, from
time to time in this Council this man .

HON. H. F. YOUNG: What man? The
Honourable Member for South Leeward

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: I am not going to
stand for it.

(Hon. H. F. Young & Hon. E. T. Joshua
hurl derogatory remarks at each other
across the table.)

HON. H. F. YOUNG: You are like a
parasite on the tree.

649 '

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

MR. SPEAKER: Would the Honourable
Member withdraw that statement? Both
members must withdraw any derogatory
statements made. Are you withdrawing

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Oh yes, I can with-
draw mine.

MR. SPEAKER: Are you withdrawing

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Yes, sir. I would
like those derogatory statements with-

(Hon. E. T. Joshua & Hon. H. F. Young
continue crosstalking)

MR. SPEAKER: I am asking both hon-
ourable members to comply with the
rules of this House if not I would ....

HON. IL F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, sir,
again I am debating a vital department
of this country and as a member of
Council representing people I have
moved a motion in a democratic man-
ner, I am exposing things that I happen
to know should create a commission of
enquiry and if the Chief Minister doesn't
like to hear it it is a fact that the truth
hurts and he is not going to calm me
down here, I know my rights and I am
not in the market, I am in Her Majesty's
Representative House of which I am a
part and by a majority of votes too.
Then, Mr. Speaker, I will only take your
ruling ahd that of no one else. Shortly
after elections a list of names was sub-
mitted of the road drivers and road
overseers who should not be employed.
I have seen that list of names. Imagine
that a poor humble man around this
country, you can remember that .Doyle
and the man at Barrouallie for 25 years
served this Government, his tools were
taken away from him without doing one
thing and handed to a P P P man. Leroy

Motion for

Bynoe from Georgetown has been given
a contract at Dixons, a contract at
Greggs, and several other places at the
same time. Bynoe, a little criminal at
Georgetown, a PPP, only a few days
ago he came out of gaol, and Bynoe who
is a P P P is a boss at Public Works run-
ning all over the place that the road
overseers cannot do their work. A road
overseer was told to order 300 ft. of
lumber, he refused, materials were pur-
chased and the same road overseer pro-
vided transportation to "Oceanis". You
know where is '"Oceanis"? In George-
town, the residence of the Chief Minis-

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, I am
not going to take this .....

(Members begin to- speak at the same

HON. H. F. YOUNG: I am going to
withdraw it, I am quoting facts ...

MR. SPEAKER: The question of trans-
porting lumber may or may not arise,
but if there is any allegation of lack of
proper conduct on the part of the Chief
Minister I can't have it brought into
the debate.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, we are
making allegation which is going to be
repeated here tonight, that the lumber
was improperly carried to the Chief
Minister's house and if that is going to
be ruled as improper let us know now
so that we can pack up our papers and
clear out of here. And the second point
while I am on my feet.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: (inaudible but
apparently protesting against the
allegation that lumber was carried
to his knowledge in an improper


Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

MR. SPEAKER: It would be improper if
there is an allegation that it was carried
with the knowledge of the Chief Minis-
ter. Anything could be carried to my

HON. R. M. CATO: It seems to me, Mr.
Speaker, that every time something is
mentioned .....


HON. H. F. YOUNG: What is this man
getting up for? On a point of order . .

MR. SPEAKER: Would you please sit
down, Honourable Member. for South

HON. C. L. TANNIs: Mr. Speaker, the
honourable mover of this motion must
clarify whether he is making a state-
ment of fact or an allegation. Here is a
member making a bold statement, a
member of the Public Works Depart-
ment, he should state which member

(Uproar as members talk together)

MR. SPEAKER: IS the Honourable Mem-
ber for South Leeward saying that he
actually saw it done or was he given

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, in
fairness to you, I am not here to be

MR. SPEAKER: With regard to the ques-
tion of lumber it can either be that he
actually saw it or a report that he re-
ceived, I am just asking you to clarify
that point.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Both and just a
while ago I wanted to say what I have
seen with my own eyes re the then Min-
ister and you stopped me I can't call

Motion for
HON. C. L. TENNIS: Mr. Speaker, I
understand from this clarification that
the honourable mover is saying that he

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Point Number 2
another road overseer ....

MR. SPEAKER: I cannot allow clarifi-
cation except to (inaudible) but if the
individual is not here.

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, he
quoted just now members of the civil
service, he said a road overseer charged
with the responsibility and he should
clarify it.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I am
here moving a motion in this House to
prove that there is corruption and ask-
ing that a commission of enquiry which
the Minister is aiding and abetting, if
he was a peaceful Minister he would
agree to this motion.

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker . .

MR. SPEAKER: I think we had better
hear a little more before ....


HON. E.-T. JosHUA: Rose

(Hon. E. T. Joshua & Hon. C. L. Tannis

MR. SPEAKER: As far as I have heard
I didn't hear any specific allegation of
misconduct affecting ..

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Yes, Mr. Speaker,
he has said so, Mr. Speaker, and I am
asking you to ask the member to with-
draw that statement that I am aiding
and abetting corruption.

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

MR. SPEAKER: As I said more than
*once any suggestion of improper conduct
by any member of this House cannot be
dealt with in a motion of this nature
and I would like you to avoid anything
of a specific nature.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: I was going on to
say that the Barrouallie Road driver that
was dismissed after 25 years, we know
too well that we have had poor boys who
left these shores and gone to Aruba and
according to the standard or the labour
conditions they take a part of their
wages and they have some scheme
whereby they pay them a little gratuity
or pension I have seen that this Gov-
ernment because I was once inside not
by virtue of right, but by virtue of grace,
men who were not on the pension list
got money when they worked at the
Cotton Ginnery and different places for
long service and whep a man has served
for 25 .years as a road driver and is
around 68 to 70 years of age and is
dismissed and the road overseer nor
anyone in the department had found
any fault with him but dismissed be-
cause of the policy of the P P P Govern-
ment, I have gone all over this country
and I must know who are henchmen of
Mr. So-and-So and Mr. So-and-So, I
know it too well, I know it in my bones
and would expect that if a fellow is
kind to you that you would help him
with some kind of a job, but not to take
away the other man's job, we should be
big enough to create employment, but
you take away the poor old man's job
and he has a family and then you can
give it to Layne who backs theP P P and
if the truth hurts I come here to tell
you facts and that is stated ahd that
is their policy. There is one Carlton
Young, a road driver at Layou, Carlton
Young who incidentally, happens to be
a nephew of mine, my brother's child,
but that is not the point because he is
named Young, the same Duff James and

Motion for
Carlton Young and a few PPP elements
at Layou, they're only a few of them to
keep the ball rolling, so the same Duff
James and Carlton Young and that boy
was trained in the back streets, went up
and had him fired and the book was
taken away from him so I approached
Mr. Dalrymple again and let me tell you
I am doing a wonderful job and I'm sure
Mr. Dalrymple wouldn't take it person-
ally, so you see, Mr. Minister, I'm not
putting you to that trouble. Mr. Speaker,
on a holiday not too long ago a PW D
jeep with Duff James and Mrs. Patterson
who incidentally, was the timekeeer at
Stubbs, (you see the word incidentally
that makes the subject fit for a debate),
the master bridge that money was paid
for at night, was seen at the JU-C fac-
tory laden with JU-C; during Election
the P W D jeep was taken to Georgetown
with Mrs. Clifton and the then Minis-
ter for Social Services; they returned
the PW D Arnosvale with JU-C, beer
and so on. What I am trying to say,
Mr. Speaker, is that when a Minister
is charged with the responsibility of a
department he has no right, he then
becomes a big public servant and has
no right to interfere and to use the
public vehicles in a private affair be-
cause they are well paid by the funds of
the taxpayers. Haven't I the right to
have my own vehicle, live in my own
room or buy my own whiskey? What
I am trying to say is that they are using
their office as if it were their private
property and at the same time collect-
ing. Mr. Speaker, I have noticed there
is a tree outside in the yard and when
you are leaving you can take a look at
it, that tree, a parasite has grown on
the almond tree and it is blossoming so
well that the poor almond tree is now
dead, the root system is gone to that
parasite and that parasite is now bloom-
ing but the almond tree is dead. When
you go out you must look. Mr. Speaker,
the Public Works Department as I say,

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

is very big. At present according -to
what we learn, the question of heads and
votes are not subjects to be swapped.
When estimates are being presented to
Government the departments have dif-
ferent heads and subheads but I can
prove to you without a shadow of doubt
where misrepresentation, where in this
book they are using two heads and rob-
bing Peter to pay Paul, that is why I
asked the Minister that he should call
an investigation in this department. I
can prove to you, sir, where money has
been mis-spent and wasted instead of
re-voted. Not too long ago they had the
sum of twenty something thousand dol-
lars for a scaffold and they had to use
it afterwards for a car park. Do you
know, Mr. Speaker, that the terminal -
there was ten thousand odd dollars sur-
plus? I happened to be a member then
of the Tenders Board and they had ten
thousand dollars to play with contin-
gencies it is all gone and do you know,
Mr. Speaker, that they were forced to
take one branch from Mr. Nehall's de-
partment to supervise and check the
malpractices of that contract because
the same Public Works Department was
not carrying out proper supervision as
to the type of mixture of concrete the
size and structure of the building, that
thousands of extra dollars, had to be
spent on it because of lack of supervision
and the Minister is telling me he is going
to vote against it. What else must I say
but that he is aiding and abetting in-
stead of finding out he says it is not
true when in the first instance I have
checked. I do not believe that you are
responsible, I believe you are too new
in the office, Mr. Speaker, but I was giv-
ing you some kind of credit for a mind
and a principle and I can well see that
you have to take care of your friend.
Mr. Speaker, it is common practice that
a plan was put on at North Windward
and when the road overseer by virtue
of his right refused 'to sign that -pay-

'Motion 'for

sheet he knew nothing of it he -was re-
ported and little more would:have .been
fired. It is quite true, Mr. Speaker, that
the Ministers did not know their duty
because the Ministers are supposed to
set policies and to be instructed by the
Administrator, heads of department, but
not go'down to the ground and interfere
with the poor humble man. Why is it
that the Minister signed the pay sheet?
It is said that it is better to have an
intelligent enemy than to have an ignor-
ant friend; an ignorant friend, Mr.
Speaker, can put you into a lot of trouble
because he may believe he is helping
you when he is not helping you, and we
had to tolerate all this interference, in-
terference because it reflects right back
to the Chief Minister putting people in
positions who haven't the ability to
carry them on. And Mr. Speaker, even
in the home there is order.

Hon. E. T. JosIUA: On a point of ex-
planation . .

MR. SPEAKER: I think that when it is
a question of Government appointing,
the Ministers are not so responsible for
the changes there are several brackets

HoN. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker,I would
like at this stage to interject this point.
It seems that every time a point is raised
which members opposite don't like, they
jump up like Jack-in-the-boxes and tell
you a point of explanation. A point of
explanation is made by a member whose
statement has been mis-interpreted. If
any point of explanation has been made.

HON. C. L. TANNINS: Rose -

HON. R. M. CATO: Will you sit down
and wait until I have finished my point?
I have got up.on a point of order.

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

HON. C. L. TANNIS: I would like to
know what point he is making.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of correction?

HON. R. M. CATO: Sit down!

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Any ruling must
be given from the chair

MR. SPEAKER: I think that . .

HON. R. M. CATO: May I be allowed
to finish my statement, Mr. Speaker?
And could I have it pointed out to this
Minister that he cannot jump up like a
jack-in-the-box every time somebody
makes a statement? What I was sug-
gesting ....

HON. C. L. TANNIS: I am not going to
let this member go on referring to me
as a jack in the box.

HON. R. M. CATO: May I now finish
my statement, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: I am sure you do not
like that term and you will withdraw it.

HON. R. M. CATO: May I then, Mr.
Speaker, withdraw the statement jack-
in-the-box and say that the Minister is
getting up like a disgruntled school boy?
Mr. Speaker, if a point of explanation is
to be made at any time it is to be made
by the member whose words have been
misunderstood and members are not per-
mitted to jump every time they don't
like some statement being made and
tell you it was a point of order. Well if
they are going to interrupt the speaker
on a point of order, they should rise and
say they are rising on a point of order
but not this type of thing that has been
going on here today.

HoN. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, when
I accused the Chief Minister a while ago

Motion for

for putting the wrong man, I didn't go
against him there, Mr. Speaker, what I
meant is merely that he was putting a
carpenter to do a doctor's job. The
Chief Minister took his wife and made
her a Minister and she was not capable
of being a Minister.

MR. SPEAKER: rose . (inaudible)

HON. H. F. YOUNG: I am not going
to hide what I mean. The Govern-
ment during election time used a lot of
funds The Cane End Road to Greggs,
Park Hill, they went down, Mr. Speaker,
and they threw down materials appear-
ing to have it done just to catch votes
and leave it there that some of the same
stones could be used a second time and
she was then Minister for Social Ser-
vices and not in charge of Public Works
carrying down the Superintendent to
fix the road and leaving it unfinished.
All of that malpractice was going on
and the Minister for Communications
and Works didn't know, she was then
the Minister for Social Services. I feel
that was wrong. I drove up there at
that time and saw herself and Mr. Dal-
rymple in my constituency. At that
time she was helping Mr. Walker. My
God! Mr. Speaker, I have never seen
such a waste of funds. Lumber was
given away.

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Why doesn't he
speak on Public Works, there is a motion
before the House. He's speaking about

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Alright, she only
sells lumber to Tom, Dick and Harry and
there are a set of ways in Public Works
and in any Government department
where you debit and credit a head, you
know that. You need not be under
forestry to get lumber, a Public Assist-
ance Officer, what else can I say? I
am too decent to argue with the lady

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

especially in her delicate position, I
think she should be resting. Mr.
Speaker, the sum of three hundred and
eighteen thousand dollars was voted
for road maintenance for 1961 has been
completely used up without the roads
being in good order. As -most of the
sum was used up in the areas where the
Government found it necessary to catch
votes, you want to pass the main road
now, Mr. Speaker, and I think the
Honourable Member for North Leeward
would bear me opt, all along the Rilland
Hill it is terrible, it is dug up, messed
up and all of that. I have seen drivers
there for months marking time, wouldn't
even move off. Mr. Speaker, look up
and notice the present Minister is only
hiding, in the "Vincentian" for Wednes-
day the 6th is a notice: "Members of
the Public are kindly asked to co-operate
with the Ministry of Communications
and Works by reporting any neglect of
duty on the part of road gangs employed
by the Public Works Department in-
dulging in the waste of public funds.
Reports received in this connection
would be treated as confidential." Now,
Mr. Speaker, in this book there are men
hired, and the dispenser is hired to give
medicine, there are men in all categories
hired to carry out the supervision or any
road overseer and you are asking the
public to seriously go and report against
his brother who is working. You don't
see my point that the poor road overseer
can't do his job. From this article I
tried to show you and you can see col-
lectively what I am saying that the
road overseer is afraid of the men in
his gang, afraid of being ostracised by
the boss a little higher, that the Minis-
ter is encouraging the public to spy on
their own people whilst you are paying
and tax payers are paying and car al-
lowance and all kinds of allowances and
apart from your road overseer there is
an inspector, all of them are helpless
under this present situation because

Motion for

decency and law and order seem to be
leaving this country, the respect for
anything that is right is gone and God
in Heaven knows if we didn't have an
Opposition what else would happen to
you. And, Mr. Speaker, sir, that is the
position and today it costs a tidy sum
of money to give employment to labour-
ers especially and by all means the men
should be employed to get our roads
fixed, by all means he should not stay
there for two weeks doing a job that
takes two days. He will move on to
something else-or he is robbing the same
taxpayers because less work would be
done in the country. When he stays
six or eight days in one spot when he
can do something else then you can
well see what is going on, the poor road
overseers cannot supervise their gang at
all. Because you have Duff James and
you have the PPP stooges in their
offices. Duff James is supposed to run
the Union of the Party, let me tell you
the political angle of this, Mr. Speaker,
and when he gets rid of X road driver
and hires Y then automatically Y would
employ those people, take advantage of
the poor people who can't get work and
that is upsetting the economy of the
country and especially now the poor
man is put under pressure, that's exactly
what it is. And I am representing South
Leeward and there are so many unfor-
tunate poor people working on the road,
would I be so mean as to report anyone
of them when you have a department
that should be solely in charge to carry
out their policy. I would not become
some detective or spy and we have given
you enough salary to leave the Grena-
dines and come here and have the de-
partment working. I come here to make
noise because you are not carrying out
your job and I come here to make noise
to show .you what is going on so that
you can take stockland what I am saying
is that the department heads themselves
cannot work for this Government be-

Thursday; 12t7 October.. 1961

Public Works Enquiry

cause their manner of approach is bad,
there is- slander in the market, their
approach is not decent enough to call
them in and have a discussion and we
know that without esprit de corps no
organisation can work. And not for one
moment am I blaming the civil servant.
The civil servant has a tremendous
strain under this new constitution.
Most of them don't know of the change
from, assent to consent and it calls for
the Minister to: reason with them, have
discussions with them so that they can
know, not to have them down and slan-
der them, because no Government can
carry on without a good civil service.
We will go tomorrow wrong or right but
the Civil Servant remains for ever and
any government worth their salt will
train their men instead of slandering
them because they have to carry out the
job and if a man is dissatisfied, like a,
dissatisfied teacher, God have mercy on
the children in the school And Mr.
Speaker, when I tell' you that all is not
well and especially the Public Works
where is the place that money is being
spent, it: is so corrupted, the malprac-
tices, the poor superintendent himself
doesn't know, he is confused. Reports
coming from all angles from little boys
and little girls all over the country who
have the power because they belong to
PPP can handle the business of the
department. I wonder if you know after
a while a husband and wife get to re-
semble each other? When you live in
a camp of nastiness you eventually be-
come nasty, and that's environment
because I watched you and I knew that
you were decent but what else can you
do now but to think evil now you are
in an evil camp? Mr. Speaker, sir, this
looks right to the Minister but although
this is a poor country with the heads
under Public Works properly managed
and the money there properly chanelled
and priorities given this country could
be better off but everybody seems to be
taking it for a joke. Although we,are a

Motion for,

poor country, the amount of money, be-
cause the: Minister knows too well the
cost of roads as against what we had;
before, the amount of money that is
given, out to transact; the amount of
money that is to be spent on this Public
Works, I am saying, si,, with all earnest-
ness, is not under proper supervision. I
am not blaming the Minister but what I
find is that he is going to tell me openly
that he is not agreeing that that is
going on when five thousand dollars is
going. one way and five chairs could be
built instead of one seat, that is inter-
fering with all of us and all of our
people. And if you are going to tell me
that that is not going on. When a man
is, given a contract for a job that is
worth five hundred dollars and he is
given two thousand, that one man pock-
ets it to the detriment of the poor tax-
payer. And you are going to tell me
that isn't going on? And Government
says the contracts are good, but the
Superintendent or the Technical Officer
should be able to find out how many
days that job should take for a wall so
many feet high, he should be able to
make a guess that it would take so many
men five days, he should calculate a
reasonable day's pay for them and put
on an extra amount in the absence of
that there are hundreds of dollars and
the money goes down the drain. I say
that the officers have no alternative be-
cause of interference of the PPP and the
poor officers cannot operate because if
they operate there will be a big stick
over their heads. They can estim-te but
there are other people in the P P 1 who
can estimate more, because they have
their friends and they push behind the
table. Mr. Speaker, you only want to
go to Vermont and one of these days, it
is a lovely ride, it is cool and nice and
I have that road pitched and you can
go right up into the Deleway Mountain
and the water scheme and when you
look on the left hand side, of the road

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

you will see a wall, approximately over
a hundred feet long by ten or nine feet
high. I see she is laughing, she put it
there, look her there, the Minister who
was then the Minister, she made me say
so because she started to argue and that
wall was put there, a personal man's
bank, not any part of Government
affair. Am I not right to call a com-
mission of enquiry? Because when the
P PP was campaigning on top of that
bank that wall was built for Mr. X. Mr.
Minister, drive up there and ask him
some time and tell me if I'm wrong
and to- see the complete ignorance; com-
plete squander of public funds. Mr.
Speaker, forty thousand dollars was put
into Public Works Extraordinary in
1960 for Kingstown Jetty, a valuable
asset to this country especially for small
boats from Leeward and the Grenadines.
Where has that gone to? The jetty is
still there going to pieces but in this
estimate under E. 26 page 120 you will
find it under miscellaneous there was
forty thousand dollars voted for the re-
construction of the Kingstown jetty. Has
the Kingstown jetty been fixed? The
rails breaking down, where is the forty
thousand dollars? Misappropriation, in
another direction. But I do know, Mr.
Speaker, prior to the Elections this year
that thousands of dollars went down the
drain and that is why the people .can't
get employment, that is why I tabled
that question this morning because a few
got employment to the detriment of the
majority and Christmas is coming, I
don't know what but, luckily for us, this
is October and we haven't got to starve.
Reconstruction of bridges, reconstruction
of drains, new bridge and you have all
kin's of things, this is a department I
am trying to show you, three hundred
thousand dollars here, while we are
making noise in here this is left to the
mercy of Tiberius outside, people work-
ing without supervision and a few chaps
are taking the cream and the country

Motion for

is not even benefitting and the Minis-
ter sits down there and they are charged
with the responsibility of supervision
and telling me that I am not right.
What I would have done if I was a Min-
ister in that gentleman's place today, I
would have listened to this debate, I
would not commit myself to say whether
it was right or wrong, but I would then
ask publicly, because this is Public
Works, this is people's business, we are
being paid by people, we need to write
to the Administrator when this was a
crown colony but in the days of Admin-
istrators, Mr. Speaker, at least you had
somebody who you could have gone to
who had some sense of right, who had
some morals but you can't go to any
Minister now because you don't know
what to tell them, what you tell them
they have already known all disci-
pline, all decency I used to be glad
the day when I went to Mr. Coutts or
even Mr. Giles and complained, they
would investigate, they had the culture
in them to find out whether it was true
and to investigate but if a little boy can
.go to Ministers, Ministers that he should
respect, Ministers that should call in-
vestigations, can go to them and listen
and send because they have their de-
partment, send out investigation and
then call us and give our regard. No,
some little boy who is a stooge to the
party can bring up a complaint without
any investigation and upset the whole
apple cart, that is how St. Vincent is
being run. Therefore there is no use,
Mr. Speaker, any representative of the
people going to the Ministry. I respect
the Ministers constitutionally, but I
don't respect their behaviour because
when a Minister goes down to play ball
with some irresponsible teenager and
operate all these things without investi-
gation A bulldozer was put to do a
bit of work up there for Mr. X and I
figure, Mr. Speaker, that the bulldozer
is there for hire and the department

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

has a right, but as soon as they hear
that the bulldozer was there it wah
taken away because Mr. X didn't bac
me. That is the type of behaviour anc
Mr. X went to the Public Works to fine
out why the bulldozer was stopped.
have never heard of big men so cheal
and so small in their high office with the
type of petty spite that I am seeing here
now. I have never met anything like
this. I wonder because I know, I have
seen men operate but I have never heard
of Ministers going down so low but I
know the reason for it, they cannot
plan, they haven't got the ability to
consider therefore they have to go to
mean things and show their power.
And their job which is tourist develop-
ment, attracting capital, making plans
and inviting economists, asking men
from outside to lay some scheme for
the benefit of the country nothing
whatsoever, slander and confusion and
another night you hear it is Mr. Speaker,
and another night it is Mr. Newspaper
and so it will go on. But Mr. Speaker,
as I stand here this evening I want to
make it quite clear to you that this
department of ours and Public Works
especially, because Public Works is the
main artery of all the departments and
I am saying all is not well there and I
am asking this Government with all
due respect, I can point out some of
the irregularities, I can go on until mid-
night. I am asking this Government to
take stock of Public Works, check your
expenditure, there is too much waste
and it is not put into the right place.
We are grant-aided, we haven't got
enough funds to build homes for our
people, we haven't got enough funds to
build schools but we are still wasting
and we wouldn't stop. It is as simple
as that. Even with the stationery with
what is going on now you can start and
save on paper, even that, even with
your ink in your office because if you
are responsible for people there is too
much waste going on and it is not going


Motion for

Sin the right direction. I always say
i which of us has a home with limited
Sounds and the wife asks for a vase and
a pot at the same time, which would you
buy? Naturally the pot, and you could
I take a little cup and put some flowers
in it until you can afford a vase because
the pot is more important. We are sit-
Sting here in luxury and the basic prob-
lem of the country is not solved. All
this bawling and hollering in the market
cannot help this country and a govern-
ment changed from assent to consent
calls for planning and responsible men
and men who can reason together and
as we come here discuss with one an-
other and see what is right for the
people. Again most of these Ministers
know that what I am saying is true. I
don't hold them responsible directly but
who must I speak to under the new
constitution but to the Minister. Though
I am speaking to you in the first per-
son I don't mean you. I can't ask the
gentlemen to my left because they have
not the authority to do that and I must
tell them. No, but it is from the Oppo-
sition and they are going to keep it
there and hide it down but it is going
to burst bigger. If you are sick you
should see the doctor immediately, if
you stay too long complications will set
in and I am warning this Government
of the Public Works and I am going to
watch them and I am saying this that
it is totally unfair to use any discrimin-
ation against our people. If I was a
Minister and the people at Sandy Bay
needed water, it is my duty to give them,
they are human beings, they belong to
St. Vincent. I would say that the
moment Elections are finished you have
collective responsibility for the island
not for a part of it and the Ministers
don't even have to go out with such
policies but to go down to the poor man
and prevent him from earning a living
and it is time and to see a poor road
worker fired, this is a statement of facts

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

and I would say the Minister has gone
down too low, it is time he look for the
stars, look up and see the stars, if you
look down you will see the mud. I thank

HON. L. C. LATHAM: Mr. Speaker, I
beg to second the motion.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, I
have to correct a point out of the chaotic
debate out of, the vast statement of
the Honourable Member for South Lee-
ward when he talked about democracy.
Democracy is that a person can do
whatever he pleases as long as he is
not encroaching on the rights of others
and that is what the member all his
tirades in the House today an impartial
person who just comes to listen to this
debate it would be believed that the
Honourable Member is speaking some-
thing of existence in fact what really
happened is that over- long period of
time people are gcing abort trying to
achieve their own ends, giving them
money to overturn certain issues, telling
people they are working for Fome Labour
Party or the other and the trouble was,
Mr. Speaker, when you hear of people
doing this and depriving people of a
living and you have a rights to remove
them and that was done in the cases
that he had, those were two henchmen
of the Honourable Member for South
Leeward vho was the cause why the
people were prevented from having their
rights bec tuse the member quoted from
the very outstart from some paper when
he attempted to be disorderly to read a
paper before anything at all was before
the House and then he said something
about democracy and we agree to
democracy to do whatever he pleases
once that democratic right did not pre-
vent our brother from having his right
also, then the member must realize that
democracy becomes totalitarianism, it
becomes fascism when you think you are

Motion for
democratic and prevent other people
from being democratic too. Now he went
on, certain sweeping allegations were
being made to which I am not going
to refer because the Speaker's ruling
was full of meaning, invectives, tirades,
falsehoods, twistings of the truth. It
is quite obvious that this motion was
only brought here to kick up a rumpus
in Government, a motion based on
sweeping and wicked allegations. Now
he spoke of Mr. Dalrymple. The Gov-
ernment didn't bring Mr. Dalrymple
here, they advertised a post of Superin-
tendent. If he is a .supersonic engineer,
if he is a mechanical engineer, you could
put all the engineers together, according
to his qualifications a job was given to
him, among those who applied, he had
the qualifications for the job and we
wanted someone. If he comes here now
and disappoints the member for South
Leeward ..

HON. H. F. YOUNG: On a point of or-
der, Mr. Speaker, you will notice that I
said nothing disrespectful of Mr. Dal-

MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Chief Minister, the
Member for South Leeward is somewhat
disappointed with Mr. Dalrymple's rul-
ing, we can leave it all at that as we
don't go into personalities.
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, the
Honourable Member who was speaking
here and de c e i v i n g this Honourable
House goes regularly to the Public Works
every day playing he is a trade union
leader, the fascists thought that they
could do something for somebody but it
is the wrong way, going every day to the
Public Works coercing the Public Works
Department to do certain things and
the very thing that this Honourable
Member is saying in this Honourable
House is wrong it is the same thing he
goes to the Public Works and strives

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

after. What kind of man is this? In
1954 there was a Commission Report and
this member attempted to read from
that report. Of course in its strictest
sense it is not so relevant to the issue
because since 1954 we have passed
through many hurdles, we have im-
proved Public Works, we have sufficient
people to work here, I am not relying on
these sweeping statements, Mr. Speaker,
I know that even if you get a tribunal
from heaven, out of the nether world,
what the member wants to impute in
this Honourable House, he would come
back again and impute it. It is a ques-
tion that the Opposition as they call
themselves, is trying vexaciously from
the behaviour that is evinced in this
House, to show up the Government to
contemptuous ridicule and bring motions
here to accomplish that and since they
know that it would not be easy to bring
this motion past here because if you
are charged with the responsibility of
Communications and Works you must
have a policy and we have one and they
will be executed without the Opposition's
interference and any commission of
enquiry and the Member for South Lee-
ward must get it out of his head about
a commission. We are capable of carry-
ing a Government. Now you hear I
can never see, there is not one moment
the Honourable Member would get up
in this House and speak on anything
else but corruption as if it is a tune to
corruption, whenever we are having
debates in this House, a blunderbuss of
invectives and charging everybody and
everything with corruption, we see them.
Now, Mr. Speaker, this is a very peculiar
part and people should know this, I shall
make it known. There are among other
things the Housing and Planning Auth-
ority forestalled in many ways, their
plans have not come up to scratch and
by that the Secretary of State ruled
that until they had brought their
accounts up to date he would withold

Motion for

funds. That was dpne, we made a re-
shuffle too in the Housing and Planning
and what has happened? There were
people living in a very dilapidated state,
lumber was cut from the forest, we
didn't cut it and sent it to the Soviet
Union and it was distributed among the
poor people, this member for South Lee-
ward comes to this House and talks
about how boards were given away.
What do they want the Government to
do when in the very estimates you are
dangling like the sword over Damocles
and talking about jetty funds being mis-
appropriated, talk about the fact of the
amount for Public Assistance being
voted, it is -absolutely short, it could do
with about three times as much to stem
the care of people left to the mercies of
the country. Now that some depart-
ment is able to cut the wood in the
forest to prepare a house, the member
for South Leeward comes here and talks
about giving away board to people. We
haven't sent it to the Soviet Union, we
did'nt do that, we gave it to the people of
the country to repair their houses. And
they speak of walls, of walls being built.
Mr. Speaker, the Member for South Lee:
ward believes in setting hypothetical
cases in the Council and is only making
sharp sweep statements to give a con-
viction. We are going to explain them
to the full and we are satisfied we might
not be able to forestall, but at least at
every repeated time we will throw it out.
Walls were built for people, who are
these people? Foreigners from the
Southern States? People from South
Georgia? Alabama? No! Native peo-
ple, just because they didn't suit the
whims and fancies of the Member for
South Leeward he comes here and
speaks about it. He wants his enemies
to dig a grave for their own racial . .
that can"t happen. Then he speaks of
people in gangs, that's the same road
people who tried to encroach, on the

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

rights of others, people who prevent
others from making a living, they them-
selves must be deprived of a living, that
is why those two drivers were dismissed
and they will never be reinstated once
they go to Public Works and try to de-
prive people of a living. Get that
straight Mr. Member for South Leeward.
Yes, the member spoke, he let slip f:om
his debate-I walked up the steps of
the Superintendent of Public Works,
from morning till night he is climbing
those steps, this is where the trouble lies,
that is why the Superintendent is
brought into contempt. He goes up those
steps, presumably be goes to dictate
terms to the Director of Public Works
and further than this, I am recording
in Hansard the reply to your cunning
equivalent motion you brought here. He
only told the people he was one of the
bosses of the department, he was work-
ing with Government, that is on record,
Mr. Speaker, not spoken by the Member
for South Leeward here, but that is what
he gave the impression to people who be-
lieve that every day he goes to the Pub-
lic Works, harasses the Director of Public
Works and then gives the impression in
words that he works at the Public Works.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I
never harassed any Public Works
Superintendent, I rise on a point 'of
order, would you ask the Minister to
give way?

MR. SPEAKER: I think, Honourable
Chief Minister, the question of harrass-
ing is different to visiting regularly.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: I have seen my-
self, Mr. Speaker, it seems that he has
taken up permanent residence there.
Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member
himself has given indications and in-
stances of harrassing. He spoke of a
boy who some Duff James or the other
caused to be dismissed.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem-
ber for South Leeward said he visited
frequently, but I don't think there is
anything that we can say that he actu-
ally harassed him. .

HON. H. F. YOUNG: And Mr. Speaker,
my go..ng in there, I would still have
to go it's a pity I can't come to you, I
would respect you a little if you had a
little more decency I would come to you.
MR. SPEAKER: (inaudible)
HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, these
things are so cunnningly put it's like, a
barbed wire entangled and you have to
keep from entangling in these things.
The people who know these things are
not in the House, it would amuse some
people to hear a debate like this and to
hear the Honourable Member for South
Leevaard speaking, they would laugh at
him because they know that exactly
what he is saying is just in the reverse,
is just the opposite. Now, one Prescod
was referred to at Stone Hill, the fore-
man, worker at the Government stone
mill found that this Prescod was actu-
ally doing nothing there but campaign-
ing and making out a case for some
party or the other. Well, he was a
political leader coming from the place
where there were all the disputes and
working in the day when everybody was
grinding stones to make roads you sit
down working what? So because' of a
dispute somewhere he was put there just
to keep him on the list because the very
said thing that the member for South
Leeward is talking about it was written
in the whole of the Public Works Depart-
ment until the Member for the Grena-
dies and Minister for Communications
and Works began to clean up that type of
subversion in the department as people
who are selected and stick into gangs
just to get a certain number of people
employed to come out and say the Gov-
ernment has no power, those are the

Public Works Enquiry

Motion for

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

type of things that are happening, Mr.
Speaker, stupid Ittle ignorant things like
those. I heard them now saying that
you went and saw and bring pressure to
bear. It might appear going a little too
far but I have the facts that's the same
thing I'm saying, this Superintendent of
Works is constantly under pressure by
the Member for South Leeward because
he cannot now get through the things
he used to get through the vigilance and
oversight of the Minister for Communi-
cations and Works. You asked a bold
question-most of those people who are
playing politics in the departments and
those people who can't get all the con-
tracts by killing two birds with one stone
giving a false impression to the populace
in the country that Government wasn't
a just Government and turn back and
get all of the contracts and those are the
parasites of this Government. He said
Leeward scheme was corruption when he
referred to the water, everything is cur-
rupt, water engineer having been charg-
ed, and because a water engineer propel-
led into the republic of Layou there
where everybody can do as they please,
the republic where the very coercion of
which I speak here the department tried
to carry out this kind of subversion
they talk now about water engineer hav-
ing been charged and commission. The
only commission of enquiry would enquire
into the fact whether the department is
set up wrongly, the thing that the mem-
ber is speaking of could be easily cor-
rected but when we go on to correct
these things, Mr. Speaker, the members
come to this House with motions, they
go around the country, they use their
anti-Government press and the rest of
it. "Mr. Railton told me at my house
at Layou" these people think that all of
us are human beings and go into their
houses. "Mr. Railton told me", poor
fellow, I wonder-not the police station, I
suppose. "Mr. Railton told me at my
house at Layou that certain employees

Motion for

that were employed should not be em-
ployed." These people are about to vic-
timise people, there is a plan of victimi-
sation and bringing bold questions and
blunderbusses they come to this House,
apart from giving us-some amusement,
of course it is becoming now a feature
but when you carry that amusement too
far it really irks me because parliament-
ary institutions go to hell and I say this,
Mr. Speaker, when such things are being
said, we read between the lines, the
personal touch-Mr. Railton told me at
my house at Layou-Mr. Railton is still
here, Public Works is still here-that
certain employees should not be em-
ployed." Now it appears to me that some
people are stinting people, they don't
want them to make any progress what-
soever, it seems to be a novelty to the
Member for South Leeward, a person
having a motor car after such extensive
work as building an airport he never
even had a car to go to work. A person
who takes any task, any substantial part
to do that work should have already had
a car, a car is part of people's equipment
in the United States, part of the people's
equipment in a metropolitan country, a
car seems to us backward people in the
Caribbean here a luxury, some thing that
only the great God knows, something
that looks as if it comes from Mars and
has suddenly appeared on earth, that
might be so but then, Mr. Speaker, a man
gets a car from working so extensively
with a few million dollars concerns that
alarms these people so that they come
in here and begin to refer to Railton
told me in my house at Layou. Dis-
missed because of the PPP Govern-
ment If the whole population, Lee-
ward and Windward could have been
assembled in this House to hear this
thing I don't know how you would pass
to go downstairs because they would
know that just the opposite thing that
is being spoken in this House is what
is practised in this country, that people

thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

have been coerced in certain instances,
these people have no right to be speak-
ing anything at all. The Minister for
Communications and Works is getting
rid Mr. Young, the Member for South
Leeward has to come here and blow his
pipe until he bursts bss because the Gov-
ernment is certainly going to get rid of
all these obstructionists, they're going
to do that though the Heavens fall. A
man at Barrouallie was dismissed be-
cause of P PP government. So I say,
Mr. Speaker, it is quite a shame that
our time should be signally wasted in
certain matters here because although
most of theseth things did occur they
occurred because the Minister, the officers
concerned were put into defiance, their
orders were abrogated, people did what
they liked and those are the things, if
we allow them to happen then we would
need an enquiry. It wouldn't even neces-
sitate the Member for South Leeward's
bringing a motion here, we ourselves
would ask for it because, Mr. Speaker,
if we allow those things which this mem-
ber complains of here, if we allow those
to happen, then and only then you would
need a commission of enquiry. Money
for the Stubbs bridge was paid in the

Now this is what this member wants
us to explain here as the Government.
During the year of elections when every-
body tried to play politics to win votes
for their party the vault of the Treasury
had two keys, two persons held them,
the Accountant General and somebody
living at Prospect. The clerk at Pros-
pect knew very well that those people
were to be paid, it was Easter time and
every person should realize that they
should get something to spend their
Easter and steps were taken to round
up the clerk. They deliberately did it
because why? Those people hadn't got
paid, a set in Georgetown and a set in
not Stubbs alone, Mr. Speaker but also

Motion for

Georgetown so therefore it was neces-
sary to find Mr. Moulton Williams the
Accountant General of the Treasury to
find the other person who had the key
to open the vaul to get tethe pay list for
the money that was locked up with no
consideration at all for the poor, unfor-
tunate people. He spoke about that but
he comes here just to make a finesse.
So when we got the money it was ob-
viously late, we got them together at
seven o'clock so the money was paid at
ten o'clock in the night because if they
got it at ten o'clock on Saturday night
they could have bought something on
Sunday morning. Now, Sir, at the same
period, sir, when it was spoken that
people were put at St. Anne's to work,
it was a most trying period, Mr. Speaker,
it was a period when in certain areas
it was hard to get certain things done,
I know the trouble and I am not pre-
pared to relate them here only to reply
sufficiently to answer the member on
the debate when he said gangs were put
to work and the overseerees couldn't sack
them. Up to now, Mr. Speaker, certain
things were being done in such a way
by certain overseers, the same type of
people that the member brought here
are now afraid. Then Mr. Dalrymple
came into contempt. These overseers
would go and it is surpassing strange
that if things were working well a Min-
ister would speak to an overseer to put
those people to clear the place; because
the place is pitched it becomes so hard
the water can't sink into the earth, no
drains were put, the water can't pass
through because the overseer is taken
up with politics, that is the type of thing
the Minister would stamp out though
the Heavens fall, that each overseer
should not be a Director of Public Works,
that each foreman should not be an
Executive Engineer, but each man does
his work in accordance with a plan for
public works. This motion will fail by

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

the votes of the Government. It was
mischeviously brought here just to have
a tirade.

Lumber was cut. I have seen drivers
marking time, the member said. I will
give you an illustration. Right up the
road where I go for lunch a whole week
passed and ten yards of road wasn't
done but in the evening when they saw
that it was impossible that that could
never go on, the money would never be
blessed, the next two weeks the whole
thing was done about three or four or
five times as much as was done. So
therefore the member is right. Certain
people get themselves in gangs and call
themselves Labour Party trying to throw
money of the country down the drain,
that is the plan that is being adopted
in your country when they come and
talk about lowness here, when the mem-
ber is talking about lowness, could any-
thing be more low than that? To say
that you are getting agents, that is com-
munist coercion, getting agents to fix
themselves into gangs, getting foremen
to allow money to waste and time. So
the money runs down the drain so
finally you fail a project and say you're
failing Government. We are taking care
of all of that, Mr. Speaker, that's why
this motion was brought here because
of the pressure of all those cruel worth-
less wicked things that were taking place

Forty thousand dollars for the jetty,
Mr. Speaker, what these members for-
get is that this country is grant-aided
when you talk to people about taxes
they go around telling the people they
shouldn't pay taxes, that is one of the
features of the election propaganda.
And now when we go on to the fazt that
we are trying to repair the waste in our
country it is quite necessary that you
use money for doing things that are
really necessary in the first instance

Motion for

and anything can happen after we try
to do the things which are lawful and
right. So the forty thousand dollars
was used for some other purpose that
was more needed. In Brazil they burnt
down all the stacks of coffee but we
tried to make starch here, we didn't
throw the potatoes in the sea, we didn't
burn them, we tried to make a starch
and form another industry. And those
people who had over-produced potatoes,
I made it clear in this Honourable House
already that because of the failure of
the cotton, Mr. Speaker, more open
lands were left and human nature, they
planted potatoes, we never restricted
them, we could not restrict them from
planting what they wanted. As a result
potatoes in the country were over pro-
duced and it is a paternal Government
that would come to the aid of the people
and get money to help them in their
distress, that's why forty thousand dol-
lars went over to the Marketing Board
to do that. But I think it is highly
complimentary that we have a human
heart and a human conscience. I have
nothing to do with people without those

Bulldozer was stopped Mr. Speaker,
it took fifteen thousand dollars for parts
for the bulldozer. The Minister saw that
to hire the bulldozer indiscriminately
was wrong and put some regularisation.
All around in the heat of the under-
mining sabotage of the Government,
subversion of the Constitution, they're
feeling the heat right away round they
bring things here in the forms of motion
to have an enquiry into Public Works.
And so, Mr. Speaker, the Minister has
rightly done so to put; the question is
that we have big projects, we are open-
ing the countryside, you can now enter
the road that goes up to Belmont and
comes right out at (inaudible) that
shows that it must take machinery to
do it and when the Minister finds that

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

the parts alone for the bulldozer or he
has to buy a new one it is time that he
has a care. But this member comes into
this House with a cut and dried motion
vague and indistinct, levelling sweeping
charges at.people official et al and Min-
isters bulldozer was stopped. We talk
of tourists, if we allow, if a place should
be governed who should do it? We are
not .going to allow the Opposition to tell
us what to do, they can bring their
motion, if this motion is based on mal-
ice, especially if this Government knows
that this motion is a spanner in the
flywheel to upset the apple cart, you
cannot, Mr. Opposition, upset our apple-
cart. We are not going to allow our
apple cart to be upset we are not going
to allow you to abuse us. You could de-
ride us, you could Break the Standing
Rules and Orders, you can disrespect
the Speaker, but we are not going to
be stampeded before the barbarous mul-
titude and we are saying this with im-
punity, we are saying that we are deter-
mined when our final term is up to give
satisfaction to this country, you can level
your sweeping charges, you can put out
your propaganda machinery, you can
put your rumours in the Press, you can
do all you want, we are going to stand
clear. And so, Mr. Speaker, I have tried
to clear up these points, I know that the
Minister directly concerned will speak on
the motion if he feels that anything is
left off. I believe that I have done suffi-
ciently, Mr. Speaker, to bring those sal-
ient .points and accusations before this
House once and for all and apart from
everything else if we are going to'be
harassed and be coerced by a series of
questions confusing the issue, by a lot
of motions here forestalling the Gov-
ernment's- plan, we have the voting
machinery and we are going to vote
against every one of them.

MR. SPEAKER: I have tolerated it for
over an hour and unless it is a question

Motion for

of a point of order I really can't really
follow the trend of anything at all with
the continual cross, talking, I honestly
can't and I must ask the members to be
a little more quiet.

HON. E. T. JosHUA: Yes, Mr. Speaker,
I sometimes raised my voice very much
because of this crosstalking.

MR. SPEAKER: I am speaking of the
question of cross talking unless on a
point of order, one person speaks at a
time generally.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: SO, sir, I believe
that the main points that I am satisfied
I have cleared up and I don't know that
people can make sweeping charges, I
live in Kingstown and only on a week
end, sometimes two weeks, three weeks,
I am not in the country, but yet some-
body who was watching there, I have
got to warn people to watch now because
there are arsonists and the rest, the
firebugs might be nearby because every-
body can see that something is done that
I don't know and those people are vexed
and annoyed because the poor people
got a piece of board to stop their house
when it was leaking, they were annoyed
because they have brought it here as
'a complaint that trees are cut down and
given to people. Who would want those
trees? The aristocrats? The aristo-
cracy? Your social clique? Or people
who have a house with trash on it and
water pouring through? Tell me! You
will die of grief, I will see your heart
fail with grief.
Sitting suspended 5.25 p.m.
Sitting resumed 5.50 p.m.
MR. SPEAKER: On the suspension the
Honourable Chief Minster was debating
the motion.
HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, the
Honourable Members brought a motion

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

before the House in the name of the
Honourable Member for South Lee-
ward:- "Be it resolved that a Commis-
sion of Enquiry be held into the func-
tioning and operation of the Public
Works Department of the territory." Mr.
Speaker, in the outline of the motion
the mover quoted from the Commission
of Enquiry into the Public Works De-
partment. He referred to certain parts
of the Enquiry in support of his debate
but he failed hopelessly to enlighten the
House on the fact that the recommend-
ations, or at least most of the recom-
menudations contained in this report
have been implemented since that en-
quiry. Are we to take a total disregard
of this Commission of Enquiry into the
Public Works Department and the many
recommendations that were put forward
which, however, Mr. Speaker, could not
have been implemented in one year but
as the commission itself rightly said
some of these changes must be long-
term. Some of the changes have just
lately been given effect, Mr. Speaker.
But in the same breath, Mr. Speaker,
the mover brushed aside the report of
the Commission of Enquiry which he
spoke of at the beginning and departed
completely from the recommendations
that were put forward in this report.
Of course I had to challenge a state-
ment trying to misquote one of the
recommendations of this report. Mr.
Speaker, I happened to be a member of
the Legislative Council during the said
period, Mr. Speaker, and supported very
ably this enquiry into the Public Works
Department. At one time I was the
Chairman of the Public Works Com-
mittee and I felt strongly, sir, that we
should have had an enquiry so as to set
the Public Works Department in proper
form to meet with the undertakings
which then lay ahead and so it is, sir,
this enquiry took place. Of course many
things that we thought then might have
resulted in this enquiry did not, much

Motion for

to our surprise, some of the allegations
levelled at certain members of the Pub-
lic Works, officers, members of the pub-
lic, could not be proved, Mr. Speaker,
but out of that enquiry recommenda-
tions were put forward at the time at
which the Commission of Enquiry sat.
Mr. Speaker, by points put forward in
the Executive Council by members of
the Executive Council certain measures
that were recommended by the Commis-
sion of Enquiry had already been put
into shape, therefore, at the return of
this report there was very little left to
be implemented. The mover of the
motion states that the organisation, the
staffing of the Public Works is not
thorough; Mr. Speaker, I must say
that this is the reverse to the truth.
Mr. Speaker, the greater part of the
divisions, Telephone Division, Survey,
Works Division, Administrative Division,
is nearly as suggested. Mr. Speaker, the
Government has decided to integrate
the departments of the Ministry con-
cerned; during the course of next year;
Mr. Speaker, the whole oversight of
the Public Works Department will come
directly under the Ministry concerned
which will be removed down to the
Public Works and the then Principal
Secretary of the Ministry of Works and
Communications would be then self-
styled if not applied, Director of Public
Works who need not to be a technical
man. Technical officers as they are
will remain, they can carry out the func-
tions within their charge, Mr. Speaker,
so in fact, except for naming some one
as Director of Public Works the whole
system has already been in gear, Mr.
Speaker, and the recommendations fol-
lowed except that when these recom-
mendations were made there was no
Ministry concerned but to fit in a pat-
tern of advanced Constitution with
which a Minister is charged with the
responsibility of departments assigned
to him by instruments the Government

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

has taken the necessary steps to see that
all the recommendations put forward
by this Commission of Enquiry be in-
troduced. As I have told you before,
most of them except for one or two
little ones here and there have been
fully introduced, the Director of Works
being one of these which will soon be
introduced. Mr. Speaker, this form must
be given a. trial, it has been given a trial
and it can work, Mr. Speaker. I have
discovered, Mr. Speaker, that after a very
keenly contested elections in this coun-
try a lot of disruption and dislocation
of the affairs of Public Works has taken
place because of the different and vary-
ing opinions of certain elements in the
Public Works Department. One of the
basic fundamentals on which a demo-
cratic government must run was by-
passed by certain members of the Public
Works Department employed by Gov-
ernment: that the civil service should
steer its course and not interfere unduly
with the politics of the country but
should carry out the policy of the Gov-
ernment of the day. If that had been
adhered to, then lots of trouble, and the
enquiry that members of the Opposition
are wanting to have, would not be ap-
pearing here in the form of a motion.
Some of the very things which the mover
of the motion outlined are instigated
chiefly by the Opposition bloc. It was
discovered, Mr. Speaker, that there are
too many little bosses, straw bosses, in
the Public Works Department, some in
the form of overseers, some in the form
of road drivers, some in the form of fore-
men. It is a policy of the Government
to reduce these straw bosses to their
natural level and let them know what
are their duties, that they are being
placed there to serve the public and
stop interfering unduly with politics in
the country and that they should direct
their attention to the proper spending
of public funds for which they are
charged. These things have been check-

Motion for

ed upon, Mr. Speaker, and I can now
see why this vigorous complaint is now
coming from the Member for South Lee-
ward because, foremost in this affair, Mr.
Speaker, where most of the trouble has
been coming, is from the constituency of
South Leeward itself where overseers
and drivers are bulldozed by the Hon-
ourable Member for South Leeward.

MR. SPEAKER: As I said already, speci-
fic allegations against a member have
to be by way of a substantive motion, it
is far better to speak generally than to

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Thank you, Mr.
Speaker. Mr. Speaker, then in the South
Leeward district, Mr. Speaker, because
in the old order of the day members of
the Legislative Council and other influ-
ential members of the community can
by-pass or wanted to by-pass the neces-
sary channels when they didn't use the
Superintendent of Works, they went up
to the Administrator to have things done
at their whims and fancies in their dis-
tricts and in their respective places; now
that these things have been discovered,
Mr. Speaker, by the Government and the
Government's policy is carried out, you
find Mr. Speaker, it interferes with the
planning of certain members of the
House and so it is necessary, Mr. Speaker,
to try to point out to this House and to
mislead the public that there is so much
to justify a commission of enquiry. I am
not for one moment 'saying here, Mr.
Speaker, certain things might not have
gone wrong by mad-headed and other
dictatorial persons in the Public Works
but, Mr. Speaker, something will go
wrong, but there is not enough to justify
another commission of enquiry, that's
the point before the House. Govern-
ment has discovered certain things and
put them in order. Whether it meets
the approval of the members of the Op-
position that is a matter of another

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

concern. If any member of the Oppo-
sition or any honourable member sees
anything going wrong in any of the dis-
tricts, it is their duty to bring it to the
notice of the Public Works Department
or thd Superintendent of Works, if they
cannot get any justification, come to the
Minister. Mr. Speaker, when honourable
members should know, they know, Mr.
Speaker, the channels and by-pass Min-
istries, by-pass the Superintendent and
try to set up their own Government, they
make their own policies and in the Pub-
lic Works Department have their own
little straw bosses to direct And misguide
the policies contrary to the Government;
MVr. Speaker, how can you allow this type
of affair to go on? So we have rectified
these points, Mr. Speaker, now they are
put right the Honourable Member for
South Leeward tells you that Ministers
are interferring with road officers. We
must interfere, we must see that things
go right, Wait for an elected member, for
the Opposition to come to the House and
say something is going wrong before we
investigate? No! A Minister is charged
with the responsibility of certain depart-
ments and it is his duty to see that these
departments run correctly. I would be
no Minister if I allowed everybody to
stampede and do as they like in the Pub-
lic Works Department, I am going to set
it right whether the Opposition likes it
or not, get that straight once and for all.
Mr. Speaker, I am charged with the res-
ponsibility of running a Public Works
Department, the Executive Council, the
cabinet of this country have at their
command the right to withdraw that in-
strument if they so wish, if I do things
outside the scope of administering the
policy of Goverinment. If the public are
dissatisfied with any of the policies in-
troduced they have a right to make a
representation, their representation will
be 'taken into account and the best
solution will be worked out. But, Mr.
Speaker, you are in charge of this House,

Motion for

we are all elected to represent, why are
you charged with the Speakership? To
get and to maintain the decorum of this
House and to see that the business of
the House is carried out with due satis-
faction according to the rules that we
agreed to. Then, Mr. Speaker, in like
manner the Ministers are charged with
the responsibility which they must carry
out; Mr. 'Speaker when the Honourable
Member for South Leeward tells you that
a Minister should not interfere with the
overseers, who of us here is so great:and
so perfect that he is not going to make
mistakes and that you are going to tell
me here, Honourable Member for South
Leeward, because you can no longer go
and dictate the policy of the Govern-
ment by getting those overseers to do
what you like, Mr. Speaker, because the
overseers are not allowed to do what
they like at the instigation of any (in-
audible) leader in this country. No, that
is not good enough.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, on a
point of order. Who is he calling a (in-
audible) leader? My Honourable friend
won this election by 38 votes, I won by
234, you have to withdraw.

HoN. C .L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, the
Honourable Member need not worry to
try to bring home to the minds of the
House whether I won my seat in the
House by six votes or one or half a vote,
if you want to put it that way. Once I
have been returned here as the elected
representative of a constituency I have
as equal say and as equal right in this
House and you had your say, Mr. Speak-
er, he had his say and he is attacking
the Ministry with which I am charged
and I have a perfect right to defend it,
Mr. Speaker. When my honourable
friend sits here and talks about his two
thousand votes. Yes, Mr. Speaker, this
Government has been finding employ-
ment throughout the length and breadth

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

of this country for thousands of people,
we have gone out to see that not one set
of people be employed, Mr. Speaker, the
policy was some of the road drivers
wanted to employ one set of people all
the time, we have put a stop to that, Mr.
Speaker, and those drivers persist in
doing that, Mr. Speaker. Those are the
things of which my Honourable friend
complains. He told me here that he
has seen and has been seeing and is still
seeing, Mr. Speaker, road gangs on the
road marking time and wasting funds.
He said he saw that. Mr. Speaker, the
Honourable Member for South Leeward,
I can remember he said what he said.
Mr. Speaker, he said he has seen people
wasting funds, how is he going to remedy
that, Mr. Speaker? What could be more
hopeless? He is going to remedy persons
marking time on the road by a commis-
sion of enquiry when the honourable
member knows his duty to the people.
All he had to say to the gang is, you are
wasting your own taxes, give us a little
more work, give us fifty percent work,
we don't want a hundred. But, Mr.
Speaker ,he is not honest enough to tell
his own people that they are wasting
their own time. I go to my own district
and if I see people marking time I tell
them so, if they don't vote me back next
time that is alright. But when honour-
able members are afraid of being voted
in-or out and they don't want to speak
to their own people, those are the people
who want investigating, the Honourable
Members themselves want investigating.
Mr. Speaker, those want your enquiry,
they need to be enquired into because
they are not truly representing the
people. Mr. Speaker, I like to travel with
facts and figures, I have here in my
hands for the Honourable Member for
South Leeward spoke at length about
funds because fifty per cent of the storm
damage fund was spent in the South
Leeward district ...

Motion for

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I
wasn't talking about storm damage, I
was speaking about irregularities. It is
a very good thing that money was spent
in South Leeward.

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, when
certain honourable members encourage
overseers to spend money without auth-
ority in the districts and come back here,
Mr. Speaker, that's the position. Talk
about storm damage funds, I have here,
I have investigated this long before you
came here and brought a motion. Mr.
Speaker, the Opposition members must
realize that you heard the mover tell-
ing me about one hundred and seventy
two thousand dollars in salaries spent
in the Public Works Department. W1 en
having told me, Mr. Speaker, look at I he
amount of money you have spent in s 1l-
aries in the Public Works Department,
yet so much money is going down ihe
drain. What is he implying, .Mr. Speak-
er? That the people you are employing
for one hundred and seventy two thous-
and dollars are not doing any work?
That is what he is implying, he is not
blaming the Minister for Social Services.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I
rightly said that the Minister involved
was interfering with the civil servants
and they were afraid.

MR. SPEAKER: The Minister has at-
tempted to make it clear that any in-
terference on his part has been for the
purpose of rectifying irregularities.

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, the
mover of the motion made mention you
have taken a builder carpenter and
placed him in an administrative capa-
city as Assistant Superintendent of
Works therefore he is saying that the
Assistant Superintendent of Works who
now holds that post should not be there.

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

You have gone to find a man from Domi-
nica, yet Mr. Speaker, before the hon-
ourable member had arrived half way in
his debate he was then turning back and
praising the Superintendent of Works
and saying he rectified this and rectified

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, on a
point of order, I didn't think that was
praise, I said I went to the Superinten-
dent to rectify irregularities done by
Duff James.

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, talk
about a transport officer, that men who
have been appointed as Transport Offi-
cers who have no idea about transport,
machinery and trucking and all sorts of
things. Mr. Speaker, I am not surprised
the honourable member has taken out
certain members to place his attack on
in the Public Works Department, some
of them deserve it because they look to
the members of the Opposition as their
leaders. Mr. Speaker, when they look
upon them as their leaders and come to
this H nourable House t-hey should be
here to take their blows. Men without
training, the transport officer I am
speaking about must have been placed
all abo it. I don't know, he said so. Put
men in transport office who don't know
about transport. Yet, Mr. Speaker, as
soon as he is finished he catches himself
and comes back and says "I am not at-
tacking civil servants at all. How can
he blow hot and cold, Mr. Speaker? What
type of man is this? An honourable
man, member for South Leeward. Mr.
Speaker, he made mention of one Mr.
Duff James, firing persons Mr. Speaker,
imagine an honourable member of a
Legislative Council, Mr. Speaker, the
member made mention of firing persons.
Let us examine the statement. The
Member for South Leeward claims to be
intelligent, he is a member of a Legisla-
tive Council and represents people two

Motion for

thousand, three thousand, eight thous-
and, whatever number he likes to call
and he is going to represent it for the
next 25 years, he even knows how long
he is going to live. The natural step to
take, Mr. Speaker, if that is brought to
the attention of the member of the dis-
trict is to contact the department or the
Minister concerned. How could somebody
from outside fire somebody that's inside?
The thing is so hopeless. Could you
bring such a thing to convince this
Honourable House that there must be
an enquiry? And to take by-the-way
evidence on the road, something that
cannot be proved, Mr. Speaker? Let us
stop this wandering, these vague things
here without substantial evidence. To
mr ke mention, Mr. Speaker, of two road
drivers who are suspended that is the
subject of discussion in the House, it
wr:.s duly answered and the member par-
aded, but he failed to stay in the House
after he had paraded, Mr. Speaker, he
failed to stay in the House to hear the
reply; you know the usual way, and I am
surprised, Mr. Speaker, that they are
here this afternoon, I thought they
would have walked out they are so
anxious to go into the market square.
I see that they are beginning to learn,
Mr. Speaker, that they must listen and
be able to hit and take, give and take,
not hit and run away. Mr. Speaker, the
honourable mover talked about Govern-
ment vehicles being used by Government
Ministers. Mr. Speaker, surely any Gov-
ernment Minister doing his duty in his
constituencies where the roads are bad
could use a public works vehicle. No
member of the Opposition is going to
stop it, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am
not at all worried about the interference,
the point is that as the Minister is
charged with responsibilities and some-
times it is necessary to use jeeps to go
into the country districts. When the
Honourable Member for South Leeward
was in the Government, Mr. Speaker, he

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

used the Government vehicles himself,
he went to the country districts to see
schools, roads, I don't see why he short ld
object to that. And that man is stating,
the Honourable Member for South Lee-
ward is stating, Mr. Speaker, that that
is sufficient for an enquiry, to have an
enquiry into Public Works, set up some
big, get one, two, three four men and
pay them some big sums and have an
enquiry. Mr. Speaker, I am worried
with the type of approach. South Lee-
ward Water Scheme When it was esti-
mated to build South Leeward Water
supply labour was 72 cents. From the
time we got approval for the money, Mr.
Speaker, when the South Leeward water
scheme was put up, it was put up before
the year 1954, that is true, Mr. Speaker,
the whole thing was estimated for, the
money didn't come until later on in the
era of the other Government. Can you
blame that Government if an estimate,
was put forward and the money re-
quested before and Government got that
money later on and the scheme, wages
went up, materials went up? You must
supplement the vote, Mr. Speaker, that
is obvious. And, Mr. Speaker, let me go
a little further, we are now suffering
from the same fault because the money
is not enough, we could not buy the size
pipe that could bring enough water into
Kingstown, the money was too small, but
instead of building a ten inch bore from
Vermont back into Kingstown we had to
reduce from eight to six, we started with
a six-inch bore and reduced to four or to
two and I saw a question put to us today
by the Member for East St. George ask-
ing for water. The Kingstown Board
knows, they're not hopeless-all of these
wildcat questions.The bore for bringing
water into Kingstown was started with
the limited funds at our disposal and
that is why . .
HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, is the
member attempting to deal with the
question tabled by me today?

MR. SPEAKER: It concerns the Public
Works Department, but there has not
been any suggestion of irregularity with
regard to supplementary estimates as
far as the members of the Opposition
are concerned. I am not going to say
stop but I really don't think that there
is any point there to answer. There is
a question of the variation of price as
a result in the change of the estimates
owing to a long period of years, that has
not been attacked in this' particular

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, that
was enlightenment, I will refer you to
what the mover of the motion said. I
have my notes, Mr. Speaker. The mover
of the motion referred to the Leeward
water supply at Vermont, Mr. Speaker,
end he quoted some figures which are
rot there to the tune of sixty thousand
pounds, :ixty nine thousand pounds was
voted, Mr. Speaker, I have my facts here,
Mr. Speaker, I am not speaking by guess
and he just made a wildcat statement
about supplementing votes and that is
incorrect and I am in order, Mr. Speaker.
And Mr. Speaker, I am charged with the
oversight of the Public Works Depart-
ment and I expect you to allow me to
debate that motion, I am not imputing
any improper motives, I am not intro-
ducing new matter and I am here to de-
bate this motion at length.

MR. SPEAKER: If there was an allega-
tion you are in order to elaborate.

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Thank you, Mr.
Speaker, the sum was insufficient to
bring the necessary bore even though it
was supplemented and, Mr. Speaker, the
Honourable Member for South Leeward
came to this House and made boasts that
he was able to get thirty nine thousand
pounds out of the sixty thousand pounds
allocated for water in this country for
the Government to bring back the South

Public Works Enquiry

Motion for

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

Leeward Supply and the very member,
Mr. Speaker, when the sum fell short of
bringing water into Kingstown was there
asking the Government to supplement
the same vote, now he comes and says
we are wasting funds. Mr. Speaker, the
Member for South Leeward if he saw
that there was a waste of funds I re-
member that he himself said that he was
part and parcel in engineering this do
you think, Mr. Speaker, in all honesty,
that if the member is honest to himself
and the country he would sit back and
allow that money to slip down the drain?
Mr. Speaker, you see how they blow hot
and cold? That is the type of behaviour
you get from the members of the Oppo-
sition who just want to come here to
blow up. Of course, Mr. Speaker, the
heat of election has not cooled off yet,
they will soon cool off and find their
natural level. They talked about the
water engineer being put in charge of
the Airport. Mr. Speaker, they don't
seem to understand the means of Gov-
ernment. The Minister has no responsi-
bility for engineers in charge of any
project; the post is advertised, it is
dealt with by the administration and
the Public Service Commission and the
pots for development are dealt with by
the Colonial Office and the Administra-
tor, no political element, can go and
say put Mr. X to do an airfield. It is
C.D.' & W. funds and an engineer you
say he wasn't qualified, I don't know -
was put in charge. When the Minister
was charged with the responsibility and
it was discovered that the progress being
made on the airport was not in keeping
with that which the Government ex-
pe ted then they took action and had
men replaced. What could a Govern-
ment Minister do other than that, Mr.
Speaker? Refuse to start the airport
and tell the Colonial Office and the Ad-
ministrator that the politicians are going
to take over and we are going to put
Mr. X to build the airport? Mr. Speaker,

Motion for

that is not how people are appointed to
top posts and the honourable member
knows that and so do all of the Opposi-
iion, Mr. Speaker, they know! but they
are only trying to mislead, misguide. I
look forward to a little more intelligence
from the Leader of the Opposition who
calls himself a lawyer.

MR. SPEAKER: I think we should be
careful with our language, I don't'think
you should use such an expression.

HON. C. L. TANNIS: But, Mr. Speaker,
what should I call him?

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable mem-
ber who is in fact . .

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Very well, Mr.
Speaker, I'm sorry.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, I am
~:oing to deal with this young man from
the Grenadines.
HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, you
haven't ruled the Member for St. George
:ut of order, is that fair now Mr. Speak-
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member
;or East St. George should not refer to
ihe honourable member for the Grena-
dlines in that manner.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, may I
wholeheartedly withdraw the statement
I just made and say that I will deal
drastically with the Honourable Minister
from the Grenadines in due course?

HoN. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, of
course the Honourable Leader of the
Opposition, who is a lawyer, Mr. Speaker
(Interruption by members of the Opposi-
tion) Mr. Speaker, I will take It in good
faith, it's alright.
MR. SPEAKER: Can we get back to the

Thursday, i2th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, the
"honoitrable mover of the 'motion the
Honourable Chief Minister dealt with
this point but I would like to bring a
point. He said a development engineer,
Mr. Speaker, at his 'house discussed that
certain people were re-employed who he
advised should not be. Mr. Speaker,
anything could be said in a drawing
room confab, especially when you are
having a few drinks, that' need not be
true, and to use that as evidence for an
enquiry is hopeless. I must inform the
engineers and members of the depart-
ment that when they are speaking in
the drawing room of the honourable
member for South Leeward, they must
be very careful of what statements they
make so that they would not be used in
the Legislature against the department
of which they are heads. That's not
corruption, Mr. Speaker, there is no cor-
ruption put forward by the statement of
the Honourable Mover of the motion.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: On a point of ex-
planation, let me make it quite clear at
that particular time the gentleman in
fairness to him said that a certain officer
who was employed or who used to be
employed by a certain Minister then he
wouldn't like to see his face on the job
because of his dishonesty and he was
still employed.

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, that
points out the type of behaviour that
you get and the kind of things that go
on that some people inveigle officers to
enjoy themselves and in the midst of
their merriment'take note of statements,
statements made by the way, and bring
them into the House. Mr. Speaker, that
is the type of honourable member you
have to deal with, the honourable mem-
bers on that side. Mr. Speaker, the hon-
ourable member said that the officers
cannot hire the drivers and men in the
road; Mr. Speaker do you expect that

Motion for

any Minister has any time to sit down
and get a list of all -the people in 'opth
Leeward, South Leeward, -South WAnd-
ward and to-see who is PPP and who is
Labour? Over three thousand .people,
Mr. Speaker. If the -Honourable -Mem-
ber for South Leeward practices that
type 'of behaviour, he -is only -teUing us
what he does. I cannot see that, Mr.
Speaker, that has never happened as far
as I know since I am in the depirtitient.
Mr. Speaker, you aIways hear abbdit 'dis-
sention being made use of byt tle' OHn-
ourable Member for'South Leebrd. Mr.
Speaker, I am not at all distuLbed, the
Opposition very cleverly wduld like 'to
put dissention in the ranks, 'the days
for dissention are gone, this 'is a united
bloc. (interruption)

MR. SPEAKER: The hobnourable inem-
bers should refrain from making Co-m-
ments that really do not carry them very

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, they
made mention of my crossing the floor
this morning but Mr. Speaker, even the
Opposition is made up of two members
from the PPP. I will continue, Mr.
Speaker. Yes, Mr. Speaker, the honour-
able member for South LeeWard spoke
about the bad example you know, Mr.
Speaker, very. cleverly of course he
thought he could get away with it, About
parasites, trees and plants or something
sucking something, the almond tree out-
side, and the almond tree died. Yes, Mr.
Speaker, let me tell the honourable mem-
ber that I am an elected representative
of the people who put me here to do a
job, I have no intention to be any para-
site, I have no intention to draw tax-
payers funds under false pretences, so
let the honourable member know this
once and for all that the position is this
that he should be careful, don't repeat
this word parasite too much, I Will re-
bounce it, don't allow me to go into facts

Thursday, 12tj
Public Works Enquiry

in this House because we will soon find
out who are parasites and who are not.
(Lound interruption Hon. Members)
Mr. Speaker, I think it is time that I am
'allowed to proceed with my debate if I
am to make proper use of my time, time
is running out on us.

Ministers aiding and abetting Now,
Mr. Speaker, the honourable member for
South Leeward in his motion must try
to convince me that his motion is neces-
sary and is based on facts so as to allow
you to give him some support to justify
and the expenditure that must follow
the implementation of a motion such as
this. But Mr. Speaker, the honourable
mover of the motion stood there and
made a political speech of the highest
nature without really debating in its
true form the motion before the House.
He made reference to scaffolding, Mr.
Speaker, scaffolding was put down on
the Public Works Department but Mr.
Speaker, if funds are urgently required
during any part of the year to meet
some urgent job there is such a thing as
a special warrant put forward voting
savings on one hand to meet the expen-
diture of another project on the other
hand. That has been done in the nor-
mal way, it has always been done, it has
been done in the past and it will be
done in the future not only by this
Government but by all governments Mr.
Speaker. The money voted was spent on
another project. Who is this true and
honest man to say that he should not
have spent this money on another pro-
ject The Government placed this money
in the estimates on one project and they
felt that it was necessary to change it
from this project and build X instead.
What is wrong with that? These war-
rants must be sanctioned by Executive
Council and the Administrator before
the Accountant General could allow one
cent to be committed. Mr. Speaker, the
honourable member does not seem to

SOctober, 1961 69

Motion for
understand, to follow what is the Gov-
ernment. I thought that the few months
he had in the Government he would
have known how the Government is
operated but it appears to me that the
few months made him a little more blind
to the procedure and undertakings of
Government, He is not behaving he
just told us he had ten years here, Mr.
Speaker, Sunday the 15th will be ten
years since the 8th Army deliberator was
elected under the adult franchise and
Mr. Speaker, this is the biggest joke I
ever had for a long time in this House.
Mr. Speaker, I could get voted out to-
morrow and I would walk out as happily
as I walked in. Let me tell the honour-
able members of this House, let me re-
mind them of that. If I am voted out
of this House I would not have any tears,
let me remind the Honourable Member
for South Leeward about that.

MR. SPEAKER: Let us deal with the

HoN. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, talk-
ing about surplus funds being spent on
the airport, ten thousand dollars sur-
plus funds-airport terminal building -
check malpractices-lack of supervision.
Mr. Speaker, a contract was awarded for
the building of the airport and the air-
port will be opened on the 25th, the
Terminal Building of the airport will be
declared open on the 25th of this month.
Mr. Speaker, I cannot allow these vague
unqualified statements about funds being
mis-appropriated-big words -use some
simple language, perhaps I can't under-
stand those big words, it is either that
I can't understand or it is confusing
the person who is making use of it,
Mr. Speaker. In future if the honou'-
able member would use a smaller word
we would all be clear on what is his
intention. The overseer is forced to sign
lists Mr. Speaker, if persons have
worked in the department they should

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

be paid, Mr. Speaker. The poor man is
working on the road, he has very small
wages already and to withhold this small
sum from him again, that is highly
ridiculous because some of the people
happen to be in a better position, don't
feel the pinches and hardships of life?
Mr. Speaker, I can't really believe that
some of my honourable friends of the
Opposition really have I wonder if
they read the Bible that has been dis-
tributed to them. I think they should
make good use of it, Mr. Speaker, I sup-
pose it is collecting dust in many of their
houses. Mr. Speaker, there is no law
which tells you that you must not em-
ploy Tom because he is in the Union.
Everywhere in the West Indies is trying
to encourage Trade Unionism so that the
people can bargain for better wages and
better conditions, similarly the St. Vin-
cent Labour Party, Mr. Speaker, had a
nearly dead union attached to the St.
Vincent Labour Party that was nearly
dead, Mr. Speaker, if the St. Vincent
Labour Party wanted to carry on a dead

MR. SPEAKER: Let us keep away, we
are getting away from the motion, let
us deal with the motion.

HON. C. L. TANNIs: Mr. Speaker, I am
replying to the statement made by the
Honourable mover of the motion who
spoke about employment of persons in
the Public Works because they belonged
to a particular Union, why should I not
now tell the honourable mover of the
motion that he must also now take it
upon his shoulders to re-organise a de-
funct, nearly dead union, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: If you pursue It along
that point; I lost the trend.

Hox. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, it
appears that of course that the member
who claims people should be organized,

Motion for

in one breath he claims that people
should be organised and in another
breath he claims that they should be
disorganised, Mr. Speaker, where are we
heading for? The member has been ap-
pointed Secretary and he is going around
soliciting persons to join this Union but
because we have a Union that's wrong
one side. Mr. Speaker, this is hopeless
inconsistency. Then I have to ramble
sometimes like this, Mr. Speaker, be-
cause here I have noted point for point
so when I go on to Trade Unionism and
so forth you mustn't worry me, I can
carry on, I am replying.

MR. SPEAKER: We have got certain
rules and we must try to keep order.

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, my
honourable friend comes down and talks
about Superintendent of Works being
confused. In one breath he is no good,
in the other breath he is not qualified,
in the third breath he tries to assist and
in the next breath he comes back, the
Superintendent is so confused he doesn't
know what to do. Which one of these
statements are we to believe? So many
statements about the Superintendent of
Works are being presented here in one
debate that even the mover himself is
now confused. He jumps up then, Mr.
Speaker, and says officers are given con-
tract that worth $500.00, $5,000.00, any
figure that came to his mouth, he just
spouted things like that here which are
not correct. You must have your state-
ments clear; when you make a statement
about contracts, you must be able to
quote figures, proper figures, not this
wildcat statement of ten thousand and
five thousand here without any evidence.
Mr. Speaker you can't allow the mover
to behave like that. And that is the
argument that he uses here to convince
this Honourable House that this Govern-
ment must be stampeded into an en-
quiry. Ministers don't sign contracts,

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

offloaess the same Superintendent of
Work6sw-hohe says isc0nfused-is charged,
with the responsibility. to. sign contracts
for. the- Goverrnment Mr. Speaker, then
the- honorable member says no, I am,
not attabkng; the civil' servant: Where
ari WB, heading with, that-type- of ramu-
bling, Mr: Speaker?

The Kingstowni Jetty--The Chief lMi n
isteaS hasa explained, that the KIingstownV
Jdttyg will be fixed: next year But; Mr.
Spe4keir,. he made mention, of Public.
Works Extraordinary and he just. picked
out for convenience the Kingstown Jetty
be6mase- he knows, that was hitched up
and the: funds expended, to pay the
peasants for potatoes, but he has not
maide.mentipn ofrthe- several items that
apljpar inh the--ubli-e Worts: Ettaordilr,
ary and :whi has been done during the-
course otthis.yeat he-han't made menrt
tiniaof.themn nocredit must be.given:to
tiw, Pn blio WrOtt.ls Department: or- to, the-
Governinentv MAn Speaker...

How. Hs B Yowx%:: If they were ?sterpe-

HOwz.Ct I, T4Y -:s; If-they were stereo-
typedr the mover would hyae nothing to
deatta- I:- don't.-:thiplc,. he has- a. clear,
understanding of the wod ,"stereotyped,"
Wrat happened to.the two hundred and
sitg thousand d od&l dellas;, speoi under;
PaWbio Works- Etr aodwlgy; That, was-
misnpent, tooi I suppose?, Misappropri--
ated?:' What happened to the -three hun-
dredi an seventy-fouar thousand dollars:
anl, the- road- maintenance thet. roads,
aAhdtltestoi:m-da agea, water, works, etc.
Wtea has happened? Mi, Speaker, the-
hnoitratl4s mnwMbep has not, he started
inrhis -outlilns, heamaidemention of these
p0jVt0,but he said.nohing about them..
MVrr Speaker1 .he, just. quoted the, figures;
anA left them- I hang ig in, thin air be-
cathso e he hasi no:, grounds, for, saying..
this money wasn't spent properly. Mr.

Motion for

Speaker, and I am going to come to
one- point,' Mr. Speaker, the honourable
Leader. of the Opposition, now the posi-
tionm was, sir, that there was some waste
of public funds on- the. road, I decided
to put an ad. in: the newspapers and ask
for the- cooperation of the public. Mr,
Speaker, whatL happened, the people who
now blow up, hot ain inside this House,
Mn- Speaker; were, the first people to get
up in- arms& Ministers should not do
that; you are, working against the people
who put you there. I am not working
against the people, I just asked that
those persons- Who are lazy and waste
funds, please irlform the department or
the' Ministry_ concerned, we didn't want
any gestapos: as was. indicated by the
Leader. of the Opposition because he
misunderstood completely the notice in
the Press to misguide the public and to
collect votes, I suppose.

HON:.R. MI CATO: Mr. Speaker, I would
ask you to draw the attention of the
Honourable Member to the fact that he
is being impertinent and out of order
and not, making, any contribution to
this debate;, he is making reference not
only in an offensive manner but to mat-
ters entirely outside the debate, matters
which have:-net arisen.

M. SPEAKER:. May I get the exact
HOx. R, M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, the
honourable Irmmber has just suggested
that. made certain remarks for catch-
ing. votes.

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, can
I continue? (Interruption Hon. Mem-
ber) You don't have any point.
MR. SPEAKER: On this particular
Hox. R. M. CATO: He was- referring
to a newspaper article.

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

MR. SPEAKER: Does the newspaper
article form a part of the procedure of
the House?

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, let
me appeal to you again, Mr. Speaker, I
think you have been missing a point,
Mr. Speaker, I did not introduce any
new matter, what I am speaking upon
is a matter introduced by the mover of
this motion, how could I not reply to It?

HON. H. F. YOUNG: I did not speak of
the Opposition's article

MR. SPEAKER: Honourable Minister for
Communications and Works, there must
be something, maybe you meant to refer
to one individual when you referred to
the other.

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, the
honourable mover of the motion read to
this House a notice put into the press
by the Minister for Communications and
Works; Mr. Speaker, then that matter is
before the House, if it is not so then,
sir, I take my seat.

HON. R. M. CATO: You were referring
to the Leader of the Opposition.

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr.. Speaker, I
referred to the Leader of the Opposition
in this context. The Leader of the Op-
position attacked that statement in the
local papers and made reference to the
word "gestapo", to which I referred.

MR. SPEAKER: Did you mention that
in the House or in this newspaper?

HoN. R. M. CATO: That is not before
the House, he has made reference to a
notice put in by the Minister in that
particular article and a hundred other
articles like this have nothing to do with
the debate, they have not been referred

MR. SPEAKER: If they have any deal-
ing with the motion and have been writ-
ten by any member of this House

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, in
spite of the foolish interruptions by the
Leader of the' Opposition I shall con-
tinue. The Leader of the Opposition is
either misguided or is hopelessly blind
to the uses of his natural senses to really
understand the matter that has been

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, on a
point of order, I don't mind hearing the
member for the Grenadines, but to give
you a little light

HON. C. L. TANNIS: What light, Mr.
Speaker? I object to that, Mr. Speaker.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: I rose on a point
of order. I quoted from this newspaper
an article published by the Minister for
Communications and the date is Sep-
tember the 6th, today in October, during
that interim

HON. C. L, TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, where
are we heading?

HON. H. F. YOUNG: During that in-
terim a reply was made to the Press re
this and has no bearing on this debate.

MR. SPEAKER: It may or may not have
bearing on the matter and if the hon-
ourable member wants to produce that
article and show where the connection
is, certainly, he would be entitled to do

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, it
would appear there is some special
nation clause that the honourable mem-
ber from the Grenadines must not speak
or should not introduce the facts or the
matters that are presented here. If the
honourable members don't want me to

Public Works Enquiry

Motion for

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

speak then they should not attack the
Government, but once they get up here
and attack a statement I will rebut, Mr.
Speaker, and in no uncertain terms.

MR. SPEAKER: If you are going to pro-
duce an article dealing with the matter
you should produce the paper in which
the article is to have it substantiated,
that is the point I was making. It should
be there at your command.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: On a point of
explanation, I think there is a misap-
prehension, the Honourable Member for
South Leeward read from the newspaper
and a certain release from the Minister
for Communications and Works, the
Minister is' commenting on this.

MR. SPEAKER: The, Honourable Minis-
ter for Communications and Works is
commenting on an article written by
the Honourable Member for East St.
George and I am saying that paper
should be produced for any quotation
from it just as they produced a paper.

(Interruption Hon. Members)

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, I am
prepared to learn, I will go on learning
until I die and most of you have a lot
to learn on the other side too. Mr.
Speaker, the honourable mover intro-
duced and read and I am not rebutting,
I shall continue my debate. The Leader
of the Opposition made mention some
time ago of Gestapo, the word "Gestapo".

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, that
is 'the same point I am making.

HON. C. L. TANNIS: I am not speaking

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Do you think that
you're bright? The Leader of the Op-
position was not speaking here today

Motion for

MR. SPEAKER: I would like to let the
honourable members know that when
you are utilising language supposed to
be used by any member in the news-
paper, the proper thing is to produce the
newspaper in order to substantiate the
points they are making. That was done
by them and that should be done by
any member when stressing any specific
point in a newspaper, or any other mat-

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: The question of
the statement and the ruling, the mem-
ber cannot deny in this House that these
specific statements mentioned here he
could not deny, he could not refute them
because it was published so the whole
public should read it and he derided the
Minister for Communications and Works
for publishing a notice in the local Press,
that is clear.

HON. C. L. TANNINS: rose -

MR. SPEAKER: AS I am saying the rule
applies to one side as well as to the other.
Periodicals should be produced in which
any word, words, quotations or reading
is being used. That is as far as I know
the position is. Until it is actually pro-
duced before the Council and so forth it
cannot really form part of the dealings
of the Council.

HON. C. L. TANNIs: However, Mr.
Speaker, I am prepared to accept your
ruling. I am not at all worried because
whatever w-3 said, whatever attempt
was made to destroy the notice that I
put in the Press I have dealt with it
accordingly and I know how it hurt the
Leader of the Opposition to hear me
quoting it in the House, but since he
doesn't want to hear it again I will try
not to use it, I will leave him and let
him die slowly with his misapprehen-
sions or his misinterpretations of any
notice that I might put in the papers,


Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

but you see that is the type of behaviour
you get, Mr. Speaker, from the Opposi-
tion, they never like to hear the truth
and any time. I get up in this House I
notice they don't want to hear me speak,
I don't know why. Something is wrong
some place, Mr. Speaker, every time I
attempt to make a strong point in this
House they try to close me down.

The hire of bulldozers, Mr. Speaker.
We discovered, Mr. Speaker, that after
the heat of the election was on, certain
officers in the department are hiring the
bulldozers as they like shelter skelter,
driving them from one side of the town
to the other, mashing up the roads and
not moving with any system and so we
stopped it, we called halt to that type
of behaviour. Now the honourable mem-
ber because at the particular instance
on which the halt is called one of his
friends had to wait a while but they
must wait, Mr. Speaker, until the Gov-
ernment has adjusted its policy correctly
and the Executive Council decided that
since it is becoming so expensive to
maintain this heavy equipment that we
must make, take the necessary steps to
see that the bulldozers are not unneces-
sarily moved all about the island but
moved with some system, Mr. Speaker,
and that priority be given to the opening
of feeder roads and not because Mr. Tom
wants to level his yard or something or
the other they take a big bulldozer from
Kingstown and send it to North Lee-
ward, smash up the roads and John
Jcnes or Tom or whoever wants to level
his yard or level some house spots, sure,
he can hire the bulldozer, but we can't
take up the bulldozer to go to North
Leeward for one day just to level some-
body's yard. So because we have stopped,
we have tightened up on that type of
affair the honourable member comes
here to tell you you must have an en-
quiry into the Public Works. It needs
no enquiry. The Government has handed

Motion for

down a policy about bulldozers and when
the honourable member for South Lee-
ward wants to change it he can go to
the Public Works and change it if he
likes and when he likes, you will no
longer bulldoze the Public Works de-
partment and have men running from
one end of South Leeward to the other,
the days for that are done, we call halt.
We talk about water Our programme
for water is to provide as much water
in all parts of the island, not in one
constituency. We have been doing work
in North Leeward, Barrouallie, South
Leeward, but don't make this mention
of particular places here, right at your
backdoor water has been brought lately
by this Government. Mr. Speaker, when
the honourable members behave like
that how can you listen and believe the
statements made by these honourable
members of the Opposition? Water was
put into Mesopotamia three or four
weeks ago, running water was turned on
into Mesopotamia, the Honourable Levi
Latham should take note of these facts,
and Layou, Georgetown, and all of these
places, Mr. Speaker, we have been carry-
ing out a rural scheme of small water
supplies in the villages, Park Hill, and
all these villages, Mr. Speaker, to bring
pipe borne water to these people who
never enjoyed that privilege. Yet the
Honourable Member for South Leeward
tells you discrimination, only one part
of the island is being attended to. Where
are we going to end when men are not
honest in their statements in this House?
The policy of the Public Works Depart-
ment, Mr. Speaker, is as far as possible
to maintain all the roads of this country
in as good condition as possible with
the funds voted in the estimates. It is
also the policy of the department to de-
velop those roads leading into agricul-
tural areas so that people why do you
want an enquiry? Mr. Speaker, the hon-
ourable member the policy is to main-
tain all Government buildings, water

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

lines, water works, improve under the
water supply 9f .the island throughout
the length and breadth of this country.
In your -estimates; Mr. Speater, merrtion
was .made of a sum of five hunttred
thousand dollars which has :been put
in to try to imiprove- on the water sys-
term of Kingstown and surrounding
.areas, South W4ndward` district, but until
funds are made payable some people
would have ,to'be cut off for certain
short periods'. in he -town and for the
iUf-orzmation of the honourable member,
the water in .the town is now being dis-
tributed by the. Board, but I am not
going to stay there, rm not going to
lay the .blame -on the Kingstown 'Board
for everything, you can orily get as many
eggs out ,of -a basket as.ydu put into it
so if you did your arithmetic at school
you will know' hy you are not getting
all the water.you want in the same part
of the town and, in all parts of the town
at the same time, and you can bring
what genius you want and you or the
Ministers themselves can take over the
whole water works of the country, they
would not be able to improve the system,
Mr. Speaker, until additional funds have
been spent to supplement the supplies
in the areas in which there is now a
very heavy drag by the rapid develop-
ments and the attachment of so many
houses that were not estimated for when
the supply was put in. That is the
position. Mr. Speaker, we needn't close
our eyes to facts, we can find all kinds
of things to talk, get in the Market
Square and talk about the shortage of
water from now until the next new
moon or the blue moon but the fact
remains that we must face facts and
when the supply at Majorca and the
Vermont supplies were put in they were
not estimated to take the drag which is
now laid upon it, the lines, the bores of
the pipes that come from the source
cannot bring enough water to be distri-
buted whenz you have taken'into account

Motion (or
other factors of the little waste here
and -there by people leaving their taps
on, some people using sprinklers and
others using swimming pools, we will
have to investigate whether the mem-
ber for East St. George has any swim-
ming pool so that we might produce
some more water for some other people
who can't get. Mr. Speaker, these are
the facts about the water supply which
the Honourable Member for South Lee-
ward spoke about today. The point is
Public Works Department carries a staff,
Mr. Speaker, we have overseers on roads
which was the main blast of the debate.
We have three senior overseers on roads,
Mr. Speaker, and we have Have you
any intimation of the many occasions
these overseers were subject to change?
Men leave the department and go in
search of better employment where they
can get better pay. Therefore, on a lot
of occasions, Mr. Speaker, you have to
be training new road overseers to carry
out the road programme. Mr. Speaker,
,no man is perfect but with that lack of
training, this misguided hand or hands
because no one can disagree Public
Works is one of the main departments
or the main department for the expend-
ing of funds and for giving employment
to persons and you must of course rea-
lize that any Opposition worth its salt
would try to disrupt or disorganise the
working of that department with the
hope that they would be able to show
up Government. We are not hiding, Mr.
Speaker, we know that in the Public
Works Department that several persons
who are charged with the responsibility
of carrying out the Government's policy
are opposed to the policy of the Govern-
ment, there is no point in hiding the
facts and if I were to tell you that I
have not discovered that personally since
I have gone to the department there
are some people who are not prepared
unless under pressure, to carry out the

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

policy of the Government, but that
shouldn't be, Mr. Speaker, the policy of
the Government should be carried out
irrespective of the particular political
view of persons charged with that res-
ponsibility and that is the crux of the
whole matter that is brought or engin-
eered, Mr. Speaker, the honourable mem-
ber for South Leeward to come here with
this motion for an enquiry, because the
honourable member in one way or an-
other, or his agents, has a hand in this
disruption and to humbug the policy of
the Government and now that has been
discovered, Mr. Speaker .....

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, on a
point of order. The honourable member
has a hand in this disruption so there-
fore when something is wrong I found
out what hand they have, the Minister
himself has admitted something is wrong
but I have a hand in it but of course I
don't ....

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, I was
going to make my point, as soon as we
attempt to rectify that disruption en-
gineered I say by the agent or by the
Leader of the Opposition himself, they
start to kick back, Mr. Speaker, hence
the motion. But, Mr. Speaker, you can-
not have in a department two policies,
a policy of the Government on one hand
and a policy of the Opposition, they
can't go hand in hand, Mr. Speaker,
there is a complete marked line, Mr.
Speaker, of the policy of the Government
on the one hand and the policy of the
Opposition on the other and if we are
to be guided, Mr. Speaker, by the demo-
cratic principles that must exist, if the
Opposition forms the Government to-
mororw, Mr. Speaker, they expect those
same people or persons in the Public
Works or any department to carry out
the policy that they set up and the
members of the Opposition themselves
would have no faith in the same people

they are using to disrupt the affairs of
this country. And not only at Public
Works, Mr. Speaker, it has been dis-
covered that there are a few persons in
one or two departments that are given
the undertaking to try to undermine
the policies put forward by Government
and the Government has been taking
steps and will continue to take steps
until we have erased that under-current
that can only lead to wasting time and
preventing the true and proper advance-
ment of the country and the carrying
out of the policies of the Government
and a Government cannot be a Govern-
ment if they don't see that the policies
they have put forward are carried out.
Therefore when the mover of the motion
tells this House that a Minister should
not have anything to do with what the
overseers might want to do or the offi-
cers of the Public Works Department,
this is hopeless, then the Ministerial sys-
tem would not be worth its salt and to
close, Mr. Speaker, I had hoped that
this debate, I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, that
a lot of the members of the staff of the
Public Works were not able to listen to
this debate, if I had had the way, I would
have had the whole staff here so that
they would listen and they would be
guided in the future by the debates in
this House. Mr. Speaker, you always
hear those who talk about locking up,
they need to be locked up first.

MR. SPEAKER: This is becoming very
improper honourable members being
arrested and locked up is so uncalled
for, I have begun to wonder where I am.
This happens to be the Legislative Coun-
cil and I want it to be respected by all
of you.

HON. C. L. TANNIs: Thank you, Mr.
Speaker, I am glad you have made a
very sound observation and you have
really brought back these gentlemen to
their senses. This is the Legislature, Mr.

Public Works Enquiry

Motion for

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

Speaker, this is the Legislative Council
and here it is the same persons who
proclaim here that we should have free,
democratic practices, they are trying to
be undemocratic, even in the House that
should be the place to show the country
the sort of democratic government under
which we exist and when the honourable
members seem to misunderstand I don't
know why they continue to misunder-
stand me but this side of the House as
well as that side of the House have been
duly elected by the people by what they
don't want to term a free and honest
election, not as my gentleman friend,
honourable elected friend of the other
side would have wanted to say, that
they were not free and honest. Mr.
Speaker, to close my debate on this
motion, I fail to see, Mr. Speaker, how
a commission of enquiry would have any
proper bearing or proper effect on the
reorganisation of the Public Works be-
cause in the hands of the mover of the
motion there is a report of a Commission
of Enquiry which took place about seven
years ago and Mr. Speaker, now all of
these recommendations, except for one
or two and one of them I mentioned
just now, Mr. Speaker, the Director of
Public Works, have been implemented,
the others have been implemented, Mr.
Speaker, or because of the fact that as
far as the auditors and other experts,
financial experts gave their ruling on
certain recommendations, that is with
regards to Public Works stores, etc.,
some of these recommendations that
have been put forward by the Commis-
sion of Enquiry were not implemented
but in the main most of them have
been implemented and they have been
given a chance to work; all it needs, Mr.
Speaker, is that the persons who are
charged with the running and the
spending of funds in the Public Works
should be guided to carry out the policy
of the Government and to do the work
that they're supposed to do instead of

Motion for

being bosses or trying to set up their
own Government inside the department
and to present their own policy ably sup-
ported by the- Leaders of the Labour
Party and their colleagues.

HON. L. C. LATHAM: Mr. Speaker, hon-
ourable members, I will be quite brief,
I will first start with a quotation: "Oh
what a tangled web we weave when
first we practice to deceive." We have
heard in this House by the Minister for
Communications and Works in the PPP
Government and there is a motion on
this Order Paper. I would like to read
a quotation from this local newspaper,
Mr. Speaker, because it is from this
notice that this motion appears on this
Order Paper. It says NOTICE in very
large print "Members of the Public
are kindly asked to cooperate with the
Ministry of Communications, Works and
Labour by reporting any neglect of duty
on the part of road gangs employed by
the Public Works Department resulting
in the waste of public funds. Reports
received (Mr. Speaker, he said) in this
connection will be treated as confiden-
tial." Signed C. L. Tannis, Minister of
Communications, Works and Labour. Mr.
Speaker, from this report because our
newspaper circulates throughout the
civilised world and this is what the
colony expresses and from this comes
the answer because we of the Opposition
must answer, we can't expect to go down
the street and get somebody from the
street to come in here around the table
because they are not elected to do so,
hence, Mr. Speaker from this S.O.S. I am
surprised, sitting here for at least two
hours listening to the Minister for Com-
munications and Works blowing hot and
cold. What is he contending, Mr. Speak-
er? He doesn't want a commission of
enquiry, let us face facts, what is he
saying? He doesn't want a commission
of enquiry yet "any report received will
be strictly confidential" and "There are

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

irregularities." Up to now I don't know
what he is saying. He wastes our
precious time here on this motion be-
cause we tried our utmost to assist him
and assist the Government, I don't
know how the-Honourable Member for
the Grenadines got down to be so I
don't know what to say because he is
a well trained man from the St. Vincent
Labour Party. I myself signed a letter
to the Administrator to make him Leader
of the Opposition, it seems to be environ-
ment, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to refer to
,some of the irregularities, I have a few
of the irregularities listed here, I will
quote a few. There is a school in pro-
gress at Spring Village and that school
was started by one George Sayers, he
started the work and what happened
now? Is George Sayers still carrying on
the work of the school? The school is
under construction now. No, Collins,
Collins has taken over. Why did Collins
take over from George Sayers? That is
something that is going on right now.
Mr. Speaker, I want to repeat a few of
the irregularities to the Minister-There
is a school in progress at Spring Village
and when George Sayers started the
work, I don't believe you know, the work
is in progress under one Collins. Do
you know why Collins took over? Did
you give instructions to take over the
school? No. A certain amount of PPP
workers, Mr. Speaker, there are a crowd
of people there, PPP supporters, who
stand by all day idling, all the money
going down the drain, the allocation for
building that school is already partly
exhausted because there are these people
just like the building of the Stubbs
Bridge, just put there because they are
PPP and decide not to work. Collins
had to take over the job, Mr. Speaker.
I have another one listed here, Mr.
Speaker, one Cecil Charles from Fair-
view, Mr. Speaker, who had a contract

Motion for

of $300.00 to clean the roads, to drain
the roads, Marywood Road, Mr. Speaker,
the contract was for $300.00 and he just
spent $14.00, himself and a woman in
less than a week and that's how the
funds go, Mr. Speaker, he spent $14.00
in less than a week and the contract to
clean those drains was $300.00,

There is another contract, Mr. Speaker,
the Minister gave another contract for
$130.00 this time, he gave the contract
for $130.00 in four days because he is a
PPP waste of Government funds. Is
the Minister He asked us to help in
this enquiry and we brought about a
motion here to call this enquiry and he
himself comes here to waste two hours
of our time blowing bellows. Mr. Speak-
er, you will find the "Vincentian" all
parts of the world as far as the United
States of America and where the "Vin-
centian" travels people will say "I'm
not going back to St. Vincent because
look the Minister for Comunications,
Works and Labour has sent out an S.O.S.
appeal to the public to help him bring
information to the Ministry. What is
all this Mr. Speaker? Is the Minister for
Communications, Works and Labour in
his right senses? I think we will have
to take him to the doctor, Mr. Speaker,
because he is deliberately wasting our
time because the proper course and the
proper channel to answer these reports
is to have a commission of enquiry and
he still wouldn't accept this motion. All
that he said here boils right down to
nothing, that's what you call blowing
hot and cold and wasting time and the
Minister must learn to behave himself
and we are going to watch him because
some time ago I came into Kingstown
just in time to see a demonstration in
the Public Works yard. I saw a civilian
and a policeman fighting, a civilian gave
the policeman a high fall and put him
on the ground, a few minutes after I saw
the whole force come in with baton,

Thursday, 12th October, 1961 718
Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

battle dress, sword and everything in
the Public Works and there is still no
need for an enquiry into the Public
Works? Policemen with their batons
running behind people what was

Mr. Speaker, I was up at Central
Windward some time ago and there is
an overseer that put out a driver on the
road, the same morning when I passed
around this overseer put out the driver
and the overseer sent four women and
four men to the driver and while I was
making my rounds in the area, I saw
people gathering and there was a lot of
noise. I went a little nearer to see what
was happening and what had happened?
The overseer sent four women and four
men to the driver, the driver said: I
won't work with you all at all, go back
to the overseer, I have my people whom
I want employed and he can't be send-
ing people to me. The driver told the
overseer: I am not working with you,
I am not taking any orders from you.
That happened in Central Windward two
months ago and still you don't want an
Mr. Speaker, it wasn't in his time.
There is a place called Evesham in the
Mesopotamia Valley, Mr. Speaker, and
there is a Methodist Church in the vil-
lage serving the people over the past
eighty years and the Minister of Religion
on Sunday especially, now the rain is
coming, sometimes he has to leave his
car away out in Evesham crossing and
if he can manage to walk he will walk
or some donkey, horse or mule will take
him up to the village. Will the Public
Works Department or the Government
try its best they have an allocation
on a pitched road coming right over
to Gomea come down to a place called
Hanson and right into Evesham Village
and coming right out to Evesham cross-
ing and lo and behold that road is

Motion for

stopped right away up in Evesham Vil-
lage so the entrance from Evesham
crossing is stopped. Why was the road
stopped? There is a place called Meade,
Meade is when you go into Dauphnie;
the money that was allocated to do that
Evesham Road they did the DeGroot
Road for their friends, hence the money
wasn't sufficient to carry the road right
to Evesham crossing, hence the road
remains rugged, no vehicle can pass
there, it has some holes that could take
me in and the Minister doesn't want to
say it is true and still he doesn't want
an investigation. The same thing with
the Cane End Road, Mr. Speaker, I have
seen one worker, he sold stone to the
Park Hill Road. I have seen his voucher
marked Cane End Road, Cane End Road
money paid for the stone to Park Hill
Road, I saw the voucher. It's just the
other day since this Government got
into power and the first thing they did
is to get an enquiry into the Banana
Association, that was necessary. Why
was it necessary? This Government
clamped down the Banana Association
and got a commission of enquiry Why?
Why was it necessary? As the Chief
Minister said, to save it from destruc-
tion. So, as the Minister for Communi-
cations and Works, Mr. Speaker, sent
out an S.O.S. in the newspaper he could
save the Public Works from destruction
by having a commission of enquiry. Mr.
Speaker, we have here in St. Vincent,
West St. George ,a crusher plant. A
crusher plant is at Belair and during the
time of the last Superintendent of Works
thousands of dollars went down the
drain at the crusher plant, materials
were sold by the truck loads. Mr. Smith
who was Superintendent at that time
couldn't stop it so what did he do? He
removed the watchman from the Meso-
potamia area who watched the crusher,
because he was a fearless fellow and
said: I want to stop this loss of public

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

funds at Belair, and moved him down
to Belair. The first thing that happened
is that the same overseer of the crusher
one evening after the watchman saw
him with two or three truck loads of
the finished material, the watchman
said: Oh no! never attempt to take
anything here. One evening the same
watchman caught two fellows with two
planks going home and he actually car-
ried them to the Police Department and
what was the result? The overseer from
the PPP Government said: that watch-
man is a Labour Party man. What did
the Minister do? Write a letter to Mr.
Dalrymple to fire the man; so it would
seem that the Government doesn't want
to stop malpractice, he sacked the man
and left the overseer.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable mem-
ber may or may not be aware that that
it is improper to say that the Govern-
ment encourages people in wrong doing.

HON. L. C. LATHAM: Mr. Speaker, that
is the same thing because it is on record
in the Public Works that they fired the
watchman because he caught the fellow
who stole the material so they left the
overseer to blow the money down the
drain. I didn't want to give you that
dope confidentially, Mr. Minister, I want-
ed it to go on record because it is unfair
for you to fire a man from a job who
has a wife and children and is working
honestly, he was doing an honest day's
work for an honest day's pay and it is
unfair to follow the practice of dishon-
est, then you hear about policy, policy.
What is your policy? To fire Doyle after
twenty-five years' service? That is your
policy to fire Prescod who gave about
eight to ten years service in the Public
Works? I have heard you speaking a
lot about policy. Is that your policy,
Mr. Minister? Lord have mercy on your
soul if that's your policy. We're not
going away tonight, you know Mr. Speak-

Motion for

er, we're staying here because we have
a lot more bullets to fire, I mean politi-
cal bullets, don't get scared. As I said
before I will be very brief because the
Minister for Communications and Works
spent a long time and he was arguing
about policy. Once we moved a motion
here, Mr. Speaker, for eight million dol-
lars and we won because we bulldozed
the Nominated Member and got him to
vote with us so we won the motion. I
do hope and pray that the Minister will
get that eight million dollars and put
it in circulation.

Mr. Speaker, that's all I have to offer
on this debate. This debate has taken
us the whole evening and we haven't
got anywhere because I think all in all
that the Minister for Communications,
Works and Labour wasted our time this
evening, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Honourable Memers, the
question is -

HON. R. M. CATO: I suggest that the
honourable mover of the motion has a
right of reply.

MR. SPEAKER: I looked' in that direc-
tion and I saw no indication that he was
going to exercise that right, anyway, if -

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, sir,
the Minister for Communications and
Works tried to make a contribution and
what he did try to say I would like to
quote his Chief Minister's remarks about
him and I am quoting the Hansard of
the first session of 1957/58 page 14.
"Honourable E. T. Joshua: Mr. Presi-
dent, Honourable Members, first of all
let me inform this member for the Gren-
adines that he can make any arrogant
speech he likes, he can make any in-
sulting speech in this Government but
this is what he must know: we would

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

not accept or tolerate remarks found in
subterfuge and lies about this Govern-
ment making remarks about the Grena-
dines. We are not going to tolerate and
we are fully prepared for those who have
been over here just a few months ago
believing that they were embalmed to
remain here forever. We would grin at
your absurdities, connundrums and tales
told by idiots over there, full of sound
and fury signifying nothing. We grin
at it and do what is lawful and right
to this community. This Government
would be no government of partiality
piling everything in one constituency
while others suffer. The revenue to be
spent in this colony, Colonial Develop-
ment and Welfare schemes would be
proper 1 y distributed throughout the
whole colony and you can blow your
pipes until you burst or take charge of
the Government, overthrow it. The ques-
tion now arises, you had your experience
over here and before a Government had
chance to hold its helm you come to
accost us here with impertinence and we
would not tolerate it You would get
back a dose of your own medicine any-
how, when you were Minister for Com-
munications here . Mr. Speaker, this
is the remark made by the Chief Min-
ister to the present Minister for Com-
munications and Works and this is the
Hansard, therefore the fury and the
blowing of pipes of which the Chief
Minister spoke, I am going to quote the
Chief Minister's opening remark that the
Minister of Communications and Works
was blowing a lot of pipes. He got up
here and in fairness to him tried to de-
fend the department, a department that
changed about five different superinten-
dents during the course of this 1954
Commission of Enquiry, I can remember
Slyvester, I can remember and Dalrymple
has just come, some second grade clerk
in Dominica but I am going on to say,
I believe because he is now Minister that
the department was so big, so vital, as

Motion for

he rightly said and for the sake sir, of
this House, I have just added up the
amount of money for roads, what we are
playing about and its just that one
section four hundred and forty-one
thousand nine hundred and ten dollars
in a grant-aided territory that we have
brought to your notice and as you rightly
said here that things are not right. Four
-hundred and forty-one thousand nine
hundred and ten just for roads and let
me quote I have my estimates, I always
walk with my books and I will draw you
to page Expenditure of Public Works
Extraordinary and pick out the amounts.
Under the roads we have reconstruction
of bridges, drains, retaining walls, em-
bankment, stony ground, etc. If you add
that up that will come to sixty-seven
thousand six hundred and fifty and if
you turn back to roads under page 114
you will find three hundred and seventy-
four thousand two hundred and sixty
dollars and if you add them you will
get four hundred and forty-one thous-
and nine hundred and ten, that's what
you have to play with on the road's
division alone, that has nothing to do
with C.D. & W. grants. There are a lot
of people who go along with the idea
that we haven't got a lot of money, well
that is true, there's a certain amount of
money in the island and if it is properly
handled, quite a lot more things could
be done and quite a lot more people
could be better off. We have seen here
today that the Minister got up and he
tried, but poor fellow, what else can he
do? When I opened my debate, Mr.
Speaker, in a big department like that
and for seven years no investigation
took place and he rightly said that most
of it is being implemented or some of it.
HON. C. L. TANNIS: I said most of the
recommendations ....
HON. H. F. YOUNG: Yes, I will take
that, most of them have been imple-
mented. If he goes back to 1954 he will

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

see the estimates for maintenance of
roads took up a quarter of the sum sixty
thousand dollars as against four hun-
dred and ten thousand dollars, he could
well see it is time for another review
if he was honest, he could now see that
is why I brought this motion here, there
were no accusations attached to any
Minister but it is time that the irregu-
larities we hear are going on and if
you are honest say let us have a stock
taking. At no time did I say it is the
Minister's fault or the Government's
fault but seven years elapsed and let
The quote from the recommendations
at have been, most of them, have been
implemented. "We do not agree with
the practice of contracting purely for
the supply of labour; it is a system
which does not absolve the Department
from maintaining a constant technical
watch on the work, while at the same
time it opens the way for wastage or
misuse of stores. We also consider that
there should be much greater care in
the selection of individual contractors",
much greater care with the type of con-
tractors, not Red John, not because he
is a PPP follower, not like (inaudible)
in the market; the Commission recom-
mended men of a certain calibre with
knowledge of the work and I go on to
quote from the report of the Commis-
sion: "We also consider that there
should be much greater care in the
selection of individual contractors, and
that no one should be employed as a
contractor who cannot show the same
qualities of integrity and skill as would
be expected in a Government Officer."
In other words, the contractor should
be, of such a calibre, such skill and in-
tegrity that the Government Officer who
is supervising can reason things out but
when we see here that contracts are
being given to masons who are not
masons, when we see that shoemakers
are becoming doctors, then we wonder
what would happen.

Motion for

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Has he said that
shoemakers are becoming doctors?

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, let
me explain. There was once a greater
man than all of us alive and 'he was so
great that he was speaking in parables
and when he spoke in parables only the
wise could understand. When I say
shoemaker doing a doctor's job I am
saying that you haven't got the right
men in the right places, it is a pity.
Then, Mr. Speaker, we go on to Roads
Division. "We find this section of the
Department to be far the weakest, both
as to its staff and as to its administra-
tion. The work of the Division is, ex-
cept perhaps for bridge construction,
mainly a matter of organising labour in
fairly large numbers and spread over
a large area. Provided official standards
of construction are laid down, which
they are not, the main requirements in
the staff of the Division are the con-
scientious and continuous checking of
road gangs to ensure that they actually
do the work for which they are paid,
and the administrative ability to organ-
ise the work so that materials and
labour are brought together at the cor-
rect time, and man-hours are not wasted
by enforced idleness." Mr. Speaker, here
I again refer to the Minister, that he
agreed that such a thing is and it is
not remedied. I quoted at length here
this morning and I want to make this
quite clear, the Minister tried his best,
he said that he couldn't understand how
a man who wasn't employed at Public
Works could fire anyone and I will quote
the name of the girl who was fired, I will
quote the name of the road driver in
whose gang the girl was working and I
will quote the name of the officer who
let it go on. I heard the Chief Minister
say I am mad, but I don't think a mad
man could speak like this. Mr. Speaker,
I go on to say that he was surprised.
Young James met a gang at Rillan Hill

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

under (inaudible) Young James said:
fire this girl because she is XYZ and
take this one because she is PPP. That
was done by the instrumentality of Duff
James. The girl came up to the Public
Works and reported the matter, I think
the Superintendent or the Minister prob-
ably knew about it and was shocked.
Soon the girl went back to work with
another gang. Why did the road driver
have to take Duff James' instructions,
Mr. Speaker, to fire that poor girl? Her
name is Ceciline or Ceciline's daughter -
because Duff James is directly connected
with PPP and the road driver having
fear for Duff James was forced to fire
her; the night I spoke to him and said:
"You are working under a road overseer."
"Road overseer what! Duff James and
Ivy Joshua are good friends."

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: rose

HON. H. F. YOUNG: I am only saying
what the boy said

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Completely out of
place! He must know his place!

HON. H. F. YOUNG: YOU will take your
blows tonight! Stop the Honourable
Chief Minister from interrupting.

MR. SPEAKER: Honourable Member for
South Leeward, please do not call any
Honourable Member of this Council by
any other name but by her official desig-

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, let
me see if I can make that point clear.
I was making a statement what James
said to the driver I am saying that I
heard the driver say so, I am not refer-
ring to her myself, I am referring to
the boy. (As Hon. E. T. Joshua objects)
Sit back and take your blows! Stop the
Chief Minister from interrupting.

Motion for

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, let.
me see if I can make that point clear.
I was making a statement of what James
said to the driver, I was saying that I
was trying to tell you that the boy said
that Duff James belongs to Ivy, I say so
again, it is not I who said that, I would
refer to her as the Honourable Member
for North Windward.

MR. SPEAKER: If it is the name of any
individual here I prefer that name to
be used which is the proper official title;
it can be done.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, the
rules! I would always say the Honour-
able Member for North Windward, I
would always say that. Anyhow, I go on.
Yes the incident the Minister spoke about
a little while ago in the Public Works
and he doesn't know these facts, he lived
in this little place across the sea, it is
only now he is a Minister he came over
here in the elections but he doesn't
know what's going on and anyone would
be glad to know what is going on, that
is the purpose of the debate tonight and
I am saying this that you don't know
why some of the officers of the Public
Works are so upset, it is because of the
complete disregard of some of the Min-
isters in the past and some of the offi-
cers who should train the civil servants
don't know what is right or wrong and
these unfortunate Ministers who haven't
that training want to twist the (inaudi-
ble) of disruption and the civil servants
some of them are forced to resign be-
cause I have been in this job from 1951
and I have the experience and when you
have a civil servant working under some
regulations and he happens to be work-
ing under a Minister but because you
are ignorant of the procedure (inaudi-
ble) then the whole machinery must
break down and that is what is happen-
ing in St. Vincent because during the

Thursday, 1 th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

time that the Member for North Wind-
ward, the Honourable Ivy Joshua was
Minister of Social Services and she took
with the same Mr. Dalrymple in a yellow
jeep conducting the affairs of the Min-
ister then only to catch votes, I have
seen that, and I know it is true, I have
seen her with Mr. Dalrymple acting then
on behalf of the then Minister when they
had to move him out and put you there
because he couldn't stay there it was
against the principles of the man. The
things that are going on, irresponsibility,
doing wrong things in the community
and you are going to tell me not to
stand up and I am representing people?
This Minister from the Grenadines has
now come up here and is in charge of
the department, a department so big
and so vital to the community, trying
his best to get rid of some of the trouble
and wanting to tell me that I am en-
gineering something that I have seen.
Mr. Speaker, for the information of
this gentleman, there is no necessity for
me to have henchmen, I am a very
peaceful man, my work has been proved
by results. The water scheme it was
during the time of Mr. Coutts I walked
into the Deleway Mountain in my rub-
ber boots and got that water scheme.
At one time they tried to put it away,
luckily for the vote of Mr. Hughes who
is not here now the water scheme for
South Leeward is there. I want the
Minister to know that I got roads and
housing schemes and apart from that my
personal attention is there so I will not
stoop to anything mean, when I come
here I come because I am seeing what
is going on. The Minister then drove
through the country during election time
with Mr. Dalrymple making new roads,
I would like to know why a particular
road was stopped, I will ask the Minis-
ter one day to continue it because it is
unfair to the people, it was not included.
The Chief Minister, I haven't touched
on him yet I am going to start with

Motion for

this one first. I hear about a housing
scheme. I am going to ask Mr. Dalrymple
if he's been handling the Housing and
Planning Departmenti it is time he says
no, you don't have any right here, this
is the section that belongs to the Hous-
ing and Planning and these four houses
that he put up there and you don't know
a thing about it all to catch votes the
lumber was used, Mr. Speaker, the lum-
ber they are talking about, ten thousand
dollars in the estimates during election
year, no one has more sympathy for
poor people than I have and you can
have and still be poor and you can have
not and still be rich. When the election
was going on a woman at Barrouallie .
(inaudible) .... Sanitary Department
even two hundred dollars couldn't keep
those poor people, because the cost of
living, the cost of beef, the cost of fish
has gone up, the cost of sugar has gone
up, but there is an increase in public
assistance from $3.00 to $4.00 but lumber
was got recklessly and given to the
(inaudible) and the member is trying to
make you believe that I am against
lumber giving. No, but a department
should give the needy first. I saw a
woman at Barrouallie got 200ft. and she
came to me and said: Look, I got a
little encouragement to vote for them,
but I catch them. That happened and
I can' call the name. Mr. Speaker, listen
to this, this is public funds, I saw (in-
audible) he went up there and they
started to give one by one.

MR. SPEAKER: IS this on the motion?

HON. H. F. YOUNG: This is replying to
the Chief Minister's remarks on the
motion, if it is not relevant, it is relevant
to what he said and I am replying to
that. I have seen with these two eyes
because I have been all over the coun-
try that the amount of taxpayers funds
that went down the drain in trying to
get this Government in power, I am

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

telling you tonight that whatever I say
here, I am too old at this time of my
life to lie and I can say this that when
the Minister got up and I thought I was
going to enlighten him and bring to his
attention all of this malpractice and he
tried to save that, then I had to say
they are aiding and abetting wrong.
The Minister says that he intends to
move his Ministry down to the Public
Works, the Minister knows that there
are a lot of things going on which are
wrong, now if we had not brought that
motion here he would not know this,
the Minister wouldn't tell this Opposi-
tion anything what they intend to do
if this motion did not come here. I am
not for one moment saying that the
Minister is not trying but when I moved
this motion it is based on what took
place months ago before he took office.
It is all well with the Public Works truck.
let me quote another recommendation.
The Minister tried to tell me thac the
question of a transport officer and I at-
tack a civil servant. No! Not for one
moment. What I was saying is this,
that the Transport Department calls for
a technical man because even on your
estate you will find a man who can dig
a yam bank better than cotton much
more a technical department like trucks,
I am not against the man who is work-
ing there, it is the principle but they are
making a clerk from Georgetown or from
the Income Tax Office and put him in
charge of Transport. I say no. A man
should be put in the Transport Depart-
ment who knows about vehicles, if it
calls for transport it is obvious that if
you have a man I.:e will then know if
the truck has a knock, there are some
people driving a car and don't know
when the spark p:lag is bad or not and
they will have to take it to a garage and
sometimes when you take it to that
garage the garage will try to make the
work bigger because of that lack of
knowledge. Ari you running a govern-

Motion for

ment or some schooner?Would you know
whht is going on throughout the length
and breadth of the country? If you did
you wouldn't come here tonight and try
to defend it, material and things that
were spent before your time, you would
say let me take stock, let me be free and
take over the department with a free
hand and then put into operation in
St. Vincent all around can tell you about
policies, can tell you about different de-
partments, can tell you about the amount
of cement to be stocked, thousand sacks
bought from business firm, take a note
of that too, you will find out his name.
South Leeward, member for South
Leeward bulldozing rules: Mr. Speaker,
there is an allocation and the Minister
for Communications and Works knows
too well there is an allocation given to
P.W.D. and during my time and I think
up to now the department would allocate
to every driver a .certain amount of
money for every district for mainten-
ance. If that driver is given X dollars
to spend on maintenance and I am liv-
ing in my district representing people,
Knowing that, have I got the right not
to tell that road driver or overseer this
road is a little bad it wants some water
to wash some dirt down there or there
are some holes in it? The road overseer
who has been allocated certain funds
then has the right because he has a cer-
tain area, to fix it but the road overseer
with the amount of rain and land slides
stopping the main road can ask the Min-
ister to put somebody there so when I
a3k the road overseer in my district to
fix the road it is up to him because it
is his duty to drive around the land when
the money is finished he goes to the
Minister for another allocation. If the
Minister thinks that is too much interest,
well then, I'll have to continue to take
interest and because of that I am still
a member of Council. I haven't got to
carry flour and sugar to bribe my voters,
my hand is free because I have nothir-

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

to give them, I am a very poor man, Mr.
Speaker, I was very shocked. The Min-
ister himself in his talk said the Gov-
ernment had discovered certain things,
he said there were a lot of bosses in
Public Works and there are a lot of
bosses in other places. But if the Min-
ister would look left and right and I
want to give him certain views, I think
that he means well because he is only
jobbing, according to my way of think-
ing, with the PPP, he tries to do a little
bit of work but he is a bit mannish with
it too but there's nothing wrong with
that. The Minister is making an effort
to remedy these things but he has so
much axe to grind and so many things
to come out by virtue of the ethics of
this Government, he has so many people,
I am not speaking about my friend from
North Leeward, he has so many people
interfering in his Ministry that now he
has started to pull up his socks he is
making believe, talking to me who live
in this country. I have gone up to Mr.
Dalrymple, not to bulldoze him, Mr.
Speaker, but to remedy things like (in-
audible) to remedy things like Calvin
(inaudible) job that was taken away
from him. Since I am a representative
I have never found myself being a news
carrier, people lose respect for you, I
either go to ask for something for my
area, something good and constructive,
let the other chap take the news, I am
not in that. In a poor country like this
and with unemployment as it is and
under employment, when you put a
statement like this in the paper and
though by virtue of what is going on
one sister reports another sister for a
job, conditions are very bad, I live
amongst them so I know and there are
some who don't mind reporting on their
own sisters so that they could be em-
ployed, then you are going to pressurize
them with certain road gangs and that
is what we want for our poor people,
all the young girls from their mother's

Motion for
home, some on the road, and the road
driver can do what he wants with them.
Is that the policy of this Government?
Or to find some industrial factory to lift
their eyes up or to help them education-
ally? There is only the road to clean -
nice ,young, decent girls you want to
see them go to Trinidad and put on a
good hair-do and some new clothes,
when they come back they are new
persons. Is this the policy of the PPP
Government? For people who have a
little work to spite them? When I come
here today and you have the audacity
to tell me that I am lying! A man with
a record of ten years' service to the
people, a man who has no future to be
a Chief Minister and.....

MR. SPEAKER: GO on with the motion.

HoN. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, I am
not going to sit here and tolerate

MR. SPEAKER: This is a matter I will
let the Honourable Member for South
Leeward know that he is speaking on
the motion

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Thank you, Mr.
Speaker, it happened already. Mr.
Speaker, a Public Works Department, a
department of that magnitude and the
words of the same Minister saying that
some of the officers are not pulling their
weight, if he doesn't want a commission
of enquiry, if he doesn't want to carry
it so big, call it an inventory or call it
something else because the estimates for
St. Vincent are being prepared now to
take effect next year, a lot has gone
down and we are going to continue
going down like that. The Minister talks
about policy and road drivers, they are
not carrying out the policy. Imagine
a road driver not carrying out a policy
of a Government. A road driver is a
man employed on the road with a cer-

S- "" 732

Thursday, 12th October, 1961

Public Works Enquiry

tain amount of I.Q. to patch here and
there, he has no policy to carry out, but
the policy that he was speaking about
was handed down to him, the policy
of the PPP Government is to fire Mr. X
and hire Mr. Y and make decisions like
this drawing money away from those
same people and taking charge of the
funds at the Government Office and now
we have heard today it is the truth, cut
their own income tax off when I have
to pay and when the ordinary man in
the road has to pay, then the incentive
of our public is gone because you are
drawing from them and taking back.
A man who has to draw money from the
bank that is why I refer to you as a
parasite on the tree

MR. SPEAKER: You must speak on the
motion, this is not in keeping with the
motion at all.

HON. I. F. YOUNG: Thank you very
much, Mr. Speaker, when a nail is driven
into the wall the impression is still
there. Superintendent of Works and
putting (inaudible) in the Public Works.
We don't remedy everything (inaudible)
tentacles set up all over the country,
income tax, the little (inaudible) and
when you talked a while ago about Mr.
alto n I am not speaking to any
rabble, I am not irt the Market Square
talking slander, there are certain people
employed in the Ptblic Works whose
bosses don't want to see them employed
but pressure from the Government they
were forced to take them and you can
well see what you have on one hand -
you have the civil servants who know
their Job but the poor chaps are scared
because of irresponsible Ministers and
what you haven't got, no teacher can
teach what he doesn't know and we
know too well the mentality of the
Ministers over here who aren't ignorant
are . .

Motion for
MR. SPEAKER: As I said, without a
notice of motion you cannot be attacking
the Members like that, it is improper
HON. H. F. YOUNG: I have listened to
a number of debates over Trinidad. I
will take your ruling, I'll do it again
and sit down here. We are today ask-
ing to investigate a vital department,
the funds of all the taxpayers and the
Minister has actually stated that wrongs
are going on. I have noticed that Dr.
Eric Williams, a scholar, a brain, univer-
sity scholar but he has reached to a
point where he invites members, other
chaps to form committees to assist; this
Government has not counted the people
of St. Vincent with a little knowledge,
your Chamber of Commerce and your
business men, have some planning unit
to assist you because of adult franchise
and lying words catch them but one day
the truth will come to them. Ask for
help, you have the power if you don't
want it from the Opposition because you
would feel ashamed ask it from outside
but for four years now they are in power
and it's the same tune in the market
from one is to A and another is to Z,
flowery speeches and no flour, the time
has come when you have got to check
and you talk about nationhood and you
talk about independence .nd you talk
about Constitution and the Administra-
tor was only a tool for Her Majesty and
so on then the responsibility becomes
bigger on our shoulder and it is for us
to wake up and start to study then we
have to set the pattern for that young
generation, we have to give them an
education, we have to go to the mothers
and fathers to help them because they
don't know
MR. SPEAKER: I would like us to con-
centrate on the motion or we will never
EpN. H,. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, then
the Minister took his seat and before he

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