Saint Vincent government gazette

Material Information

Saint Vincent government gazette
Portion of title:
Government gazette
Portion of title:
St. Vincent government gazette
Saint Vincent
Place of Publication:
Kingstown, St. Vincent
Kingstown St. Vincent
Publication Date:
Physical Description:
v. : ; 35 cm.


Subjects / Keywords:
Gazettes -- Periodicals -- Saint Vincent ( lcsh )
serial ( sobekcm )
legislation ( marcgt )
federal government publication ( marcgt )
periodical ( marcgt )
Spatial Coverage:
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines -- Saint Vincent


Dates or Sequential Designation:
v. 1, no. 1 (1868)-v. 112, no. 48 (Tues., 23 Oct. 1979)
General Note:
Description based on: Vol. 111, no. 1 (Tues., 3 Jan. 1978); title from caption.
General Note:
Supplements which accompany some numbers contain extraordinary issues, ordinances, statutory rules of order, etc.

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Source Institution:
University of Florida
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University of Florida
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The University of Florida George A. Smathers Libraries respect the intellectual property rights of others and do not claim any copyright interest in this item. This item may be protected by copyright but is made available here under a claim of fair use (17 U.S.C. §107) for non-profit research and educational purposes. Users of this work have responsibility for determining copyright status prior to reusing, publishing or reproducing this item for purposes other than what is allowed by fair use or other copyright exemptions. Any reuse of this item in excess of fair use or other copyright exemptions requires permission of the copyright holder. The Smathers Libraries would like to learn more about this item and invite individuals or organizations to contact Digital Services ( with any additional information they can provide.
Resource Identifier:
19844741 ( OCLC )
sn 89018505 ( LCCN )

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Full Text




paiblished bt 4uthoritg.

VOL. 96.] SAINT VINCENT, TUESDAY, 20 AUGUST, 1963. iNo. 44.



No. 227.
it. is hereby notified for general information that in the event of a hurricane
threatening or approaching the Island, the following warnings will be given:-

(1) A red'flag with a'black
rectangular centre will be
flown on Police Headquar-
(2) Loud Speaker and Radio
(3) Three saluting guns will be

'-RURAL AREAS (1) A red flag with a black
rectangular centre will be
flown from Police Stations.
(2) Loud Speaker and Radio
16th July, 1963.

(1) Two red flags with black
rectangular centres one
above the other will be
flown on- Police Headquar-
(2) Church' Bells will ring for
5 minutes.
(3) The siren will blow for 5
(1) Two red flags with black
rectangular centres will be
flown from Police Stations.
(2) Church Bells will ring for
5 minutes.

No. 263.

A Survey of the Economic Potential and Capital Needs of the Leeward
-Islands, Windward Islands, and Barbados by Dr. CAELEEN O'LOUGHLIN, M.A.,
M.Sc., Ph.D., Senior Research Fellow of the Institute of Social and Economic
*rResearch, University of the West Indies, has been received, and may be seen
on application at Government Office, Kingstown.
Copies -of this Report are available for sale at Government Office at a cost
of $6.60 per copy.
20th August, 1963.
(C. 1145.)

cS '. 7 9 ,



230 SAINT VINCENT,,TUESDAY, 20 AUGUST, 1963.-(No. 44.)

No. 264.

With reference to Gazette Notice
No. 221 of 24th July, 1962, Mr. C. E. R.
WILLIAMS, Land Surveyor, Lands and
Survey Department, resumed duty on
10th August, 1963.
20th August, 1963.
(P.F. 864.)

No. 265.

Clerk, Treasury Department, has re-
signed from the service with effect from
16th August, 1963.
20th August, 1963.
(P.F. 953.)

No. 266.

Clerk, Magistrate's Office, has been
granted 57 days vacation leave with
effect from 28th August, 1963.
20th August, 1963.
(P.F. 1193.)

No. 267.

The Right Honourable the Secretary
of State for the Colonies has notified
that Her Majesty the QUEEN will not
be advised to exercise her power of dis-
allowance in respect of the following
Ordinances of this Government:-
No. 10 of 1962.-An Ordinance to
provide for the raising of loans
from Her Majesty's Government in
the United Kingdom for the pur-
poses of development, and for mat-
ters incidental thereto.
(C.M.F. 240.)

No. 11 of 1962.-An Ordinance to
declare the terms and conditions
applicable to Local Loans author-
ised to be raised by the Govern-
ment of Saint Vincent.
(C.M.F. 228.)

No. 8 of 1963.-An Ordinance to
provide for the service of the
Colony for the year ending the
thirty-first day of December One
Thousand Nine Hundred and Sixty-
(C.M.F. 481.)

No. 11 of 1963.-An Ordinance to
repeal and replace the Co-opera-
tive Societies Ordinance, 1954.
(T.P. 462.)
20th August, 1963.

No. 268.

Copies of the Legislative Council
Proceedings and Debates (Hansard) in
the First Session (1961) held on 20th
July, 1961, which may be seen at Gov-
ernment Office, the Kingstown Library,
and at all Revnue Offices, are published
with this issue of the Gazette.

By Command,

Chief Secretary.

20th August, 1963.



Applications are invited for Com-
monwealth scholarships offered by the
United Kingdom Government under the
Commonwealth Scholarship and Fellow-
ship Scheme and tenable at institutions
of higher learning in the United King-
dom from October 1964.
The Scholarships are intended for
persons of high intellectual promise who
may be expected to make a significant
contribution to life in their own coun-
try on their return from study abroad.
They are primarily available for post-
graduate study or research at Universi.
ties and at colleges of technology, but
may be held for courses at other insti-
tutions, e.g., in the field of adult, social
or rural education, of fine art, of archi-
tecture, or of industrial design.

2. Tenure:

A Scholarship is tenable for a pro-
gramme of study or research normally
extending over a period of two academic
years and leading to a University de-
gree or similar qualification. An award
may, however, be made for one academic
year only.

SAINT VINCENT, TUESDAY, 20 AUGUST, 1963.-(No. 44.) 231

3. Emoluments:

These include:
(a) fares to the United Kingdom and
return on expiry of the scholar-
(b) approved tuition, laboratory and
examination fees;
(c) personal maintenance allowance
at the rate of 51. 10s. per
(d) a grant for books and apparatus
of 25 per year, and of up to 25
for typing and binding of thesis
where applicable.
(e) an initial clothing grant of 40
for such scholars coming from
tropical countries as are recom-
mended to receive it;
(f) a grant for expenses of approved
travel within the United King-
dom of up to 25 per year.
(g) for male married scholars ac-
companied by their wives, a mar-
riage allowance at the rate of
16. 13s. 4d. per month. (This
allowance will not be payable
during the first year of the ten-
ure of a scholarship, unless the
scholar was a married man at the
time of his application for an
award, and will not be payable
in respect of a wife who holds a
scholarship herself or who is in
paid employment.)

4. Eligibility:
Candidates must normally be resident
in the West Indies and must be, or hope
to be, by October 1964, graduates of a
university or college in their country
or holders of an equivalent qualification.
Applications will also be considered
from such persons without a degree or
similar qualification who wish to take a
first course of study in the United King-
dom, provided that they are normally
resident in a country where no univer-
sity or college offers courses in the sub-
ject of their choice. Applicants should
not have reached their 35th birthday by
1st October 1964, but preference will be
given to candidates who are between 22
and 28 years of age. Only in exceptional
circumstances will applications be ac-
cepted from candidates over 35 years of

5. Method of Application:
Applications must be made through
unit Governments, in sextuplicate, and
on the prescribed forms available from
the Education Officer, Kingstown, St.
Vincent. Applicants must lodge their
applications not later than 31st October,
1963. Applications that are incomplete

or are not supported by the required
documents will not be entertained.

Acting Education Oficer.

30th July, 1963.



A competitive examination for the
award of two Scholarships tenable at
the St. Vincent Grammar School and
two tenable at the Girls' High School
will be held at the Richmond Hill Gov-
ernment School on Friday, 4th October,
1963, beginning at 9.00 a.m.
2. Each candidate must:-
(a) have been less than twelve years
of age on 15th September, 1963;
(b) be a native of the Island or child
of a native;
(c) have been residing in Kings-
town or within half a mile of the
boundaries thereof during the
three years previous to 15th Sep-
tember, 1963;
(d) be a pupil of a private or public
school in the island;
(e) produce a certificate of good be-
haviour from the Head Teacher
of such school.
3. No Candidate shall be awarded a
Scholarship who obtains less than one
third of the maximum of marks in each
subject and less than one half of the
total marks in the examination.
4. Candidates will be examined in
English, including Reading, Arithme-
tic, and will be given an Intelligence
5. The Scholarships are awarded
for a period of five years, provided the
Scholar's attendance, conduct and pro-
gress as shown by the term reports are
considered satisfactory.
6. Applications, accompanied by
Birth or Baptismal certificates must
reach the office of the Kingstown Board,
Paul's Lot, not later than 11.30 a.m. on
Wednesday, 4th September, 1963.


Office of the Kingstown Board,
Paul's Lot,

232 SAINT VINCENT,'TUESDAY, 120-AUGUST, 1963.-(No. 44.)



RESOIUTION giving notice of a deci-
sion to prepare -a Seventh Supple-
mentary Scheme of the Regional
Scheme for Kingstown and -its

Section 10 of the Town and Country
Planning Ordinance No. 2 of 1946.

The' following RESOLUTION which
was passed by the Authority on the 30th
day 'of May, '1963, is piblikhed for gen-
eral infirmatioh.
'BE fT iRES(lSOiED' aid it is heieby
-resolved that' the' eitral' losing and
Planning A'ith6rity'has this *Oth day
of May, 1963,, decided' to 'detorie uftder
the provision of Section 10, of the,Town
-'ad Country Planning' Ordinance'No. 2
bf 1946, for the erection of buildings
for Educational purposes,
THAT parcel'the Parish
of St. George, bounded on' he 'Nbrth
.by the Cathedral Bye-way on the
East by Pauls Avenue, on the South
by the rear boundary of the'proper-
ties fronting onto Grenville Street,
'on the West by' the Eastern boundary
of the property known as Bishop'S
House for a distance of 214 feet fror4
the Cathedral Bye-way, thence at
right angles in *a Westerly direction
for a distance of 70 feet, then at right
angles in a Southerly direction until
'the rear boundary of the'' properties
on the' Grenville Street'is reached.
Secretary & Technical Officer
Central Housing and Planning
30th July, 1963.


A.D. 1962.

SUIT No. 176/62



NOTICE is hereby given that on
Saturday, 7th September, 1963, between
the hours of 12.00 o'clock noon and 3.00

p.m., there will be put up for sale at the
Court House in Kingstown the under-
mentioned goods and chattels, the pro-
.perty of the above named Plaintiff
BERTIE MAIZE, levied upon by virtue of
a writ'of seizure and sale issued in the
above suit:-

1 wooden house, roof covered with
galvanize irof sheets, size 18' x'10',
situated at Kingstown Park.

Dated this 13th day of August, 1963.

Acting Deputy' Registrar
Supreme Court.

Registrar's Office,
'St. Vincent.


A.D. 1962.

SUIT No. 194/62.



NOTICE is hereby given that -on
Saturday 7th September, 1963, between
the hours of 12.00 o'clock noon-arid
3.00 p.m. there will be put up for sale
at the Court House -in Kingstown -the
undermentioned goods 'and chattels, the
property of the above named defendant
AMos ROBINSON, levied upon by virtue
of a writ of seizure and sale issued in
the above suit:

1 wooden house, roof covered with
galvanize iron sheets, situated' at
'Francois Village.

Dat?,l this 16th day of August, 1963.

'Acting 'Depu'dt 'Ieidtrar
Supreae Cbuirt.

Registrari' Office,
St. Vincent.

SAINT VINCENT, TUESDAY, 20 AUGUST, 1963.-(No. 44.) 233

SAINT VINCENT. and levied upon by virtue of a Writ of
Seizure and Sale issued in the above
IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THE suit will be put up for sale by Public
WINDWARD ISLANDS AND Auction at the Court House, Kingstown
LEEWARD ISLANDS on Saturday 31st August, 1963, at 1.30
in the afternoon.
A.D. 1962.
That is to say:-
Suit No. 8/1962


NOTICE is hereby given that on
Saturday the 31st day of August, 1963,
between the hours of 12 o'clock noon
and 3 p.m. there will be put up for sale
at the Court House in Kingstown the
undermentioned goods and chattels, the
property of the above-named defendant,
Henry Afflick Haynes, levied upon by
virtue of a writ of seizure and sale is-
sued in the above suit:-
1 Yacht-"Singora", built in Eng-
land of Grown oak timbers and
teak planks
45 ft. in length
10 ft. 7 ins. beam
6 ft. in draft
Ketch rig with engine

Dated this 9th day of August, 1963.
Acting Deputy Registrar
Supreme Court.
Registrar's Office,
Saint Vincent.


A.D. 1963

SUIT No. 135/63



It is notified for general information
that the undermentioned article, the
property of the abovenamed defendant,

One (1) House

Dated this 8th day of August, 1963.

L. G. E. K. LEWIS,

Magistrate's Office,
St. Vincent.


Auction Sale

The following articles will be put up
for sale by Public Auction at Police
Headquarters, Kingstown on Wednes-
day 21st August, 1963 at 11 a.m.
One pair spectacles in case
One rear motor cycle shock
One Gold Ring
One complete M.V. Wheel 700X20
Seiberling tyre on red rim
One two cell Flash Light and two
One mirror in black frame
One piece green cloth (approxi-
mately two yards)
One brown gent's hat
Two ladies' wallets
Two Thermos flasks
One male frame bicycle
One pair gent's spectacles
Two pairs female shoes.


With effect from Thursday, August
15th Rice and Sugar will be sold at the
Control Warehouse in quantities of not
less than five (5) bags.
The selling price of sugar in quanti-
ties of 5-9 bags will be at $24.80 per
bag; in lots of 10 bags or more $24.37
per bag.

Controller of Supplies.
13th August. 1963.


234 SAINT VINCENT, TUESDAY, 20 AUGUST, 1963.-(No. 44.)



Notice is hereby given that the undermentioned persons have become
defaulters under the "Land and House Tax Ordinance" in respect of the
properties set opposite to their respective names as appear on the Tax Rolls of
the Colony for the parishes of Saint Andrew, Saint Patrick and Saint David.
The said properties having been levied upon will be offered for sale at 2 p.m.
on Saturday 24th August, 1963 at the Inland Revenue Department, Kingstown,
for the recovery of taxes due.

Accountant General.

Treasury Chambers,
Saint Vincent,
2nd August, 1963.

Name of Owner or

Situation of

Description of

Bernard, Emaline
Charles, Ormond T.
May, Daniel
Garraway, Rachael

Providence, Carlton

Sam, Verrol
Spence, Robert

Dennie, Alfonso
Emmons, Mavis
Matthews, Augustus
Matthews, Martha
Turton, Emma


Clare Valley
Camden Park
Buccament Bay

Spring Village,
now Troumaca
Kirtons Hill
Spring Village

Rose Bank
Rose Bank
Rose Bank
Rose Bank

One dwelling house
One house spot
1 acre 2 roods 3 poles
One house spot

One dwelling house

One dwelling house
One dwelling house

One dwelling house
4 acres Lands
One house spot
One dwelling house
One house spot
One house spot

[ Price 30 cents. I




2nd Sitting

Thursday, 20th July, 1961.

The Honourable Legislative Council met at 10.00 o'clock this forenoon.

MR. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Hon. N. S. NANTON.

Chief Minister and Minister of Finance:
HON. E. T. JOSHUA ...... ..... Member for Central Windward
Minister for Communications, Works and Labour:
HON. C. L. TANNIS ...... ..... Member for the Grenadines
Minister for Trade and Production:
HON. H. A. HAYNES ...... ...... Member for West St. George
Member without Portfolio:
HON. MRS. I. I. JOSHUA ...... ...... Member for North Windward
Attorney General:
HON. B. F. DIAS ......

HON. H. F. YOUNG ...... ...... Member for South Leeward
SL. C. LATHAM ...... ...... Member for South Windward
SA. C. G. ALLEN ...... ...... Member for Kingstown, Deputy
SR. M. CATO ...... ...... ...... Member for East St. George, (Leader
of the Opposition)
SC. deB. BARNARD ...... ...... Second Nominated Member.

Minister for Social Services

and Education:
.....Member for North Leeward
...... ...... First Nominated Mas.A .

~3~;rc~c 1.&.

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

The Minutes of the meetings of 2nd
March 1961 and 25th May, 1961 which
had been previously circulated were
taken as read and were confirmed.

MR. SPEAKER: Honourable Members, I
make the following announcement:
That in reply to our resolution of loyalty,
His Honour, the Administrator received
the following reply:
': h.v e honour to acknowledge
receipt of your despatch No. 128 of
26th May and to inform you that I
have been commanded by The QUEEN
to convey to the St. Vincent Legisla-
tive Council an expression of Her
Majesty's sincere appreciation of their
Resolution of Loyalty.
I have the honour to be,
Your most obedient and
humble servant,

That the Chief Minister will make a
statement concerning the proceedings of
the Parliamentary Conference held in
London on the question of the West In-
dian Federation.

There were no Notices of Motions.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. President, Hon-
ourable Members, I give Notice of the
following questions:
1. Will the Minister for Communica-
tions andLWorks please state for
wh r1oehpe Shed at Petit
&d 1-1hc1 -wa.iuilt to accom-
a5te truck.'nt_ during the
kifding of the ~.NrIh Leeward
I~ ad is now being,'uigd?

2. Is the Minister for Communications
and Works aware that the ser-
vices of Mr. Ivan Doyle and Cal-
ville Carr, road drivers of Barrou-
allie have been terminated after
twenty-five and four years service
respectively without any stated

3. Is it correct that the Minister for
Social Services has given author-
ity for the erection of a house on
the Camden Park Playing Field?

HON. L. C. LATHAM: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members, I give notice of the
following questions:
1. Will the Minister for Communica-
tions and Works please make a
comprehensive statement of the
plans of Government for the pro-
posed new Telephone System.

2. Will the Minister for Communica-
tions and Works please state the
reason for the cessation of work
on the Evesham/Cane End Road.

3. Will the Minister for Communica-
tions and Works please state how
much money is left under the
Head-Maintenance of Roads for

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, I beg to
give notice of the following questions:
1. Will the Chief Minister please state
whether it is the Polilcy of Gov-
ernment for Ministers to hire em-
ployees in the Public Works De-
partment for work on Govern-
ment Projects.

2. Is the Chief Minister aware that
there have been instances of em-
ployees being engaged directly by
Ministers of Government for
work on Government projects?

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

3. Will the Chief Minister give an as-
surance to this House that all
hiring of workers by the Public
Works Department. will be done
only by the appropriate Officers
and not by Ministers of Govern-

No Petitions were presented.

The Honourable Attorney General laid
on the Table the following papers:
Council Paper No. 5 of 1961: Minutes
of Finance Committee Meeting of
6th January, 1961.

Council Paper No. 6 of 1961: Annual
Report of the Windward Islands
Banana Growers' Association Ltd.
for the period January, 1959-June,

Council Paper No. 7 of 1961: Cotton
Protection (Close Season) Order.

Council Paper No. 8 of 1961: Report
of the Department of Agriculture for
the year 1956.

Council Paper No. 9 of 1961: Report
of the Department of Agriculture for
the year 1957.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, I would
like to enquire what is the reason that
these papers are being laid by the At-
torney General. It seems to me that
these papers fall in the office of the
appropriate Ministers. There was a time
when officials of Government were res-
ponsible for laying certain documents,
but this responsibility has been trans-
ferred to the appropriate Ministers. Why
take the power from them? I make this
point, Mr. Speaker, in all good faith with
all respect to the Ministers responsible
for this department. Let us not accept

responsibility with one hand and return
to the colonial status with the other.

HON. B. F. DIAs: Rule No. 19 of 1954
was amended by Standing Rules and
Orders No, 16 of 1956 to read, as amend-
ed-"All papers shall be presented by
an. Official Member of Council or by a
Minister". It has been in the past that
the Attorney General who is an official
member has been laying papers. Until
the next rules are made, Sir, I am sub-
ject to your ruling, Mr. Speaker.

HON. R. M. CATO: The rule has been
amended to give authority to the appro-
priate Minister who will lay papers com-
ing under his portfolio. The Attorney
General will lay the papers which apper-
tain to his particular province and are
brought to his attention.

HON. B. F. DIAS: These rules were not
made yet. New draft rules have not yet
been made, they are yet to be made.

MR. SPEAKER: I am of the opinion,
Honourable Member for East St. George,
that the rule is sufficiently clear to allow
an official Member of the Council or a
Minister to lay papers. The normal pro-
cedure in future will be that a Minister
as well as an official Member of the
Council such as the Attorney General
will lay papers.

HON. R. M. CATO: I am abiding by
your rule but if I may state, the rule is
abundantly clear. Formerly these papers
had to be laid by the Attorney General
whose power is transferred to the appro-
priate Minister. If they do not want to
take the power it is a matter for them
but any matters appertaining to the
appropriate Ministries must be laid by
HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, Sir,
at a time like this in the history of a
purely agricultural country, what does

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

the Agricultural Report of 1956 and '57
mean to us? How many bags of arrow-
root, how many bags of cotton? You
can well see my point, Mr. Speaker. Are
we now going to debate a report for '56
and '57, five years back, statistics that
bear no relationship at all to current

MR. SPEAKER: Honourable Member for
South Leeward, if you desire a motion
in due course to deal with a matter of
that nature, well it is your priviledge to
do so but it is purely a matter of laying
papers at the moment.

HON. R. M. CATO: But, Mr. Speaker,
is the Honourable Member going to be
allowed the right to ask a question? It
is a matter that is of importance. Is the
Member to be given the satisfaction of
an appropriate answer?

MR. SPEAKER: I think, Honourable
Member for East St. George, it is more
in the nature of a statement than a
question from the Honourable Member
for South Leeward and this question of
a statement in the form of the debate,
well then I think it should be preceded
by a motion.

HON. R. M. CATO: In that case, Mr.
Speaker, I can very well use the words
of the Honourable Chief Minister be-
cause it is a question that struck him
on many occasions. I have had the plea-
sure of reading his criticisms in exactly
similar occasions and may I now ask
whether the Honourable Chief Minister
will now check to see that these reports
are published within a reasonable time.
It is a reasonable request and I am ask-
ing the Chief Minister to bring these
Hansards up to date.
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, the
Member for South Leeward very well
knows that the Government Printing
Office was awaiting a machine. Even the

Hansards of the Legislative Council are
far behind schedule and they know that
they lay the burden on the Chief Minis-
ter in this state of affairs when in fact
it dates back to when they were in Gov-

MR. SPEAKER: I think we will continue
laying the papers.

HON. B. F. DIAS: Mr. Speaker, to con-
tinue to lay the papers, I now lay:
Council Paper No. 10 of 1961: Aid to
Pioneer Industries (Isaac Newton
Tannis) (Manufacture of Concrete
Blocks and Tiles) Order.
and finally,
Council Paper No. 11 of 1961: Report
on the General Elections held on
April 20th, 1961.

HON. R. M. CATO: Before I ask the
question standing in my name I crave
leave of the Chair to ask this question
of the Chief Minister:
Is the Chief Minister aware that the
meeting on the first Thursday in July,
1961, of the Legislative Council was

MR. SPEAKER: I think, Honourable
Member, that if you wanted anything
gone into the proper, normal procedure
would be to give notice of the question.
I don't know if you would like to put in
a, formal notice.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, I think
that my reason for that question was
completely formal notice. It is right, it
is covered by the rules of this Council
and I have asked the question. I am
aware of my right to ask questions.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, I
know, I am prepared, though a layman,
to stand in Magistrate Courts and

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Answers to Questions

Supreme Cburts for the balance of my
term, I do agree with that. But the
question is, apart from voicing a ques-
tion, it is easy to answer. The business
of the country permitted that Ministers
of the Government be absent from the
country and it was impossible in many
ways .toanswer questions and to debate
Throne Speeches, etc., etc., without the
full complement of the Xouse being here.
That's why the meetings were delayed.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, if I
may put a supplementary question, it is
laid down in the Standing Rules and
Orders that so many members form a
quorum, and is it not true that in Trini-
dad whilst Dr. Eric Williams and other
members were away the business of the
island goes on?

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: It is incomparable,
Mr. :Speaker, you cannot compare the
Trinidad Legislature with the comple-
ment of workers there with that of St.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Did not the Chief
Minister, Mr. Speaker, have as his
Deputy the Minister for Trade and Pro-
duction whilst he was away? And any
organized Government that hinges on
one man is not a democracy.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Chief
Minister has given an answer to the
question, mainly that urgent Govern-
ment business away prevented him from
being here and prevented-

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, I. take
leave to ask question No. 1 in the Order
Paper standing in my name.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, the
appropriate Minister is not here-to an-
swer the question. The question is:
Will the Minister for Education and
Social Services please state what steps
SGovernment proposes to take to im-

prove the condition of Primary Educa-
tion in St. Vincent, in view of the
"sorry plight" reported in the speech
from the Throne.

The development of Primary Educa-
tion in St. Vincent is handicapped
principally by the lack of adequate
accommodation in schools and the
shortage of suitably trained teachers
to meet the needs of the rapidly grow-
ing population in the 5-15 year age
group. Measures to meet these diffi-
culties are of necessity limited by the
stringent financial position with which
we are faced.

During the five year period ended
March 1960, 2,600 places were provided
in 11 new schools and work has al-
ready started on. a programme to
build seven more schools with accom-
modation for 2,350 pupils, the cost of
which is being met from a C.D. & W.
grant. Proposals have been included
in a ten year Development Plan al-
ready submitted to the Federal Gov-
ernment for another 14,500 places by
1972, and it is proposed to include
provision in the budget for improving
and extending at least one existing
school each year to meet the needs as
far as is possible, of the area in which
it is located.
The Teacher Training programme car-
ried out in three local training centres
provides training for over 100 pupil
teachers, some 40 qualify as student
teachers each year. A number of these
leave the service to work and study
abroad. This service is being expanded
as funds become- available. Extension
planned for 1961, has had to be cur-
tailed, as expenditure estimates under
Head 1 had to be reduced to keep
within the limits set by the Federal
Government for grant-in-aid.
College training is provided at Erdis-
ton College, Barbados. Over the past

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Answers to Questions

six years twelve teachers were quali-
fied. The number has been increased
to three each year. Expenses are met
partly from a C.D. & W. grant and
partly from local funds. It is proposed
to include provision in the budget to
provide training for at least one more
in 1962, bringing the total each year
to four. The proposed establishment
of a Teacher Training College for the
Windward Islands in St. Vincent, will
make it possible to increase this num-
ber considerably.

HON. R. M. CATO: Will the Minister
state how soon it is anticipated that the
Teacher Training Programme for these
schools will commence?

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: AS soon as. pos-

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, if the
Minister is not ready to give an answer
and has not got the information on
hand, may I suggest that he state
whether he will supply it at a later date.
When we ask questions in this House
we ask them to get information, much
needed information in the light of the
answer which is given, a very inadequate
Teacher Training Programme has been
revealed, but it seems to me that steps
are being taken particularly in relation
to the scholarship and the question only
aimed at bringing out in what period of
time we can expect or hope to get relief
in that direction--to get an answer: as
soon as possible. It is rather strange, the
Minister knows or ought to know better
than that.

MR. SPEAKER: Honourable Member for
East St. George, in reality what he
means by "as soon as possible" is to

the best of his knowledge-but at the
moment he might not be able to specify
the particular date.

HON. R. M. CATO: He must tell the
House what he means.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: You heard what
I said, as soon as possible.

MR. SPEAKER: Will the Honourable
Member for East St. George proceed with
his questions.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, I beg
leave to ask the question No. 2 standing
in my name.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: In the absence of
the Minister for Education and Social
Services the Chief Minister will answer
Question No. 2 on the Order Paper:

Is the Minister for Education and
Social Services aware that gross dis-
satisfaction exists among the teachers
of primary schools with regard to their
conditions of service and the adminis-
tration of the Education Department.
If the answer is in the affirmative, will
the Minister state what steps are being
taken, or are being proposed, to relieve
such dissatisfaction.

Answer to the question:

This Government is aware of dis-
satisfaction resulting from matters
arising out of the Grossmith Salary
Recommendations, and the question of
SPrimary School Teachers Salaries, and

Thursday, 20th July, 1961
Answers to Questions

conditions of service are receiving con-

HON. R. M. CATO: IS the Minister in a
position to state how soon the teachers
are likely to get something positive and
defini-e done to relieve the dissatisfac-

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker I am
not in a position.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: He believes this is
Russia. I am going to read this to the
Speaker when he is finished. He can't
answer us like this, he has to have some
respect for us.

MR. SPEAKER: Honourable Member, the
Chief Minister says that he is not in a
position at present to answer that ques-
tion. I'll now ask the Honourable Mem-
ber for South Leeward to ask the ques-
tion standing in his name.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Will the Minister
for Education and Social Services
please make a statement showing
what assistance has been given out
by the Public Assistance Department
by way of cash payments and mat-
erial for the following periods:

Is' January, 1960 to 30th April, 1960.
1st January, 1961 to 30th April, 1961.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, in
the absence of the Minister for Social
Services, I am answering the question
standing in his name.

Statement showing assistance given
by the Public Assistance Department
for periods 1st January 30th April in
the years 1960 and 1961.

Assistance in

Jan.-Apr. Jan.-Apr.
1960 1961

..... $9,481.80 $10,425.41

Value of mat-
erial issued ...... $2,265.50

Material and
labour special
Assistance to
replace house
at Cane Garden
damaged by



HON. H. F. YOUNG: Will the Minister
for Trade and Production make a state-
ment showing the plans of Government
for the re-building or re-establishing of
the Government Cotton Ginnery?

HON. H. A. HAYNES: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members, in reply to the ques-
tion of the Honourable Member:

Government proposes to reconstruct
the St. Vincent Cotton Ginnery and
Copra Factory with Oil Expressing
Plant on the Government-owned lands
at Arnos Vale. Plans are already well
advanced and Major Biggs, Federal
Marketing Officer, will be coming to
St. Vincent at the end of the current
month to hold further discussions.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Thank you.

HON. R. M. CATO: Will the Minister
please state what it is proposed to do
about the old Cotton Ginnery site?

HON. H. A. HAYNES: That matter is
being considered.

Thursday, 20th July, 1961
Answers to Questions

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Will the Minister
please note that the present site of the
Cotton Ginnery is owned and operated
by cotton growers and not Government?
Please take note.

HON. L. C. LATHAM: Mr. Speaker, I beg 4-
leave to ask the question standing in my E-

Will the Minister for Trade and Pro- 0
duction please state what steps are
being taken to revise the Government
Policy on Land Settlement.

Question No. 1

HON. H. A. HAYNES: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members, the Federal Gov-
ernment has been asked to send a
Team of Experts to go into the ques-
tion of land settlement policy in St.

HON. L. C. LATHAM: Question 2.

Will the Minister for Trade and Pro- 0
duction please state "

(a) The total sum realized from sale
of produce by the Marketing Board
to the 30th May, 1961.

(b) The total cost of running the
Board to the 30th May, 1961.

(c) The total sum producers
over the above period showing
payments for various crops.

HON. H. A. HAYNES: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members, in reply to the ques-
tion from the Honourable Member for
South Leeward:

(a) The following are the total sums (b) The total costs of operating the
realized from the sale of produce as at Marketing Board up to 31st May, 1961
31st May, 1961:- are as follows:-

IKn, nsers to Questions


6 S
oi c,
o w'

i O,

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

(c) The following sums were paid to
producers in respect of the crops named
during the period ending 31st May, 1961.

LO M 0 L-' ~' "D 0 WO 11 L- =O 0 MO M
M1 Lot-" 00 CO 010000LO 00 4 CO

C U5i = d4 WO00q 00 1
00C t0 M N -4

&-I 010 -4

Cit CO

Ino C

CO = L MQ I *- 00001 W =O W 00
~~~os icse c-deit oo to oo
mc.1 0c0 n Li 0 co 0C 1 C 0

00OOf004o0-40 OO1

I I I 1 I I I I 1

This figure of $93,570.48 included ac-
tual amounts in respect of salaries,
labour, lighterage, freight, insurance, ex-
port duty, containers and general ex-
penses. Of this sum $23,617.35 is met
from C.D. & W. funds under the Scheme,
while the remainder, $69,953.13 was cov-
ered from the trade.

S o

e 0 i>4 r

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, will

the Minister for Trade and Production
offer some explanation for the discrep-
ancy between (a) and (b) in answer to
question pertaining to potatoes. We see

cost $35,290.96.
the Minister for Trade and Production
offer some explanation for the discrep-
ancy between (a) and (b) in answer to
question pertaining to potatoes. We see
that the amount of potatoes purchased
cost $35,290.96.

0 0
Co 10,
ri 10"

Co .14
0 40~
0n 001&
10 0 10

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Answers to Questions

VOICES: The question hasn't been
asked yet.

MR. SPEAKER: Will the Honourable
Member for South Windward 'proceed
with the questions standing in his name.
HON. L. C. LATHAM: Mr. Speaker,

Question No. 3.
Will the Minister for Trade and Pro-
duction please state:
(a) The quantity and cost of pota-
toes purchased by the Govern-
ment for the manufacture of
(b) How much of this starch has
been sold and what sum has been
realized from the sale of such
HON. H. A. HAYNES: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members, in reply to the ques-

3. (a) The quantity of potatoes pur-
chased for the manufacture of
starch was 1,714,548 lb. @ 24
per lb. at a cost of $35,290.96.
(b) 5,000 lb.. of starch has so far
been sold for $758.98.

HoN. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, may I
now ask whether the Minister for Trade
and Production can offer some explana-
tion, give us some account of the appar-
ent dificit?

HON. H. A. HAYNES: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members, there is still a large
quantity of potato starch to be sold.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, can
the Minister say how much of that
starch remains to be sold and where the
starch is being stored at present?

HON. H. A. HAYNES: I understand that
there are 424 300-lb. bags of starch and
261/2 200-lb. bags of starch.

HON. H. F.
please say if

Legislative Council Rules

YOUNG: Will the Minister
this is fit for human con-

HON. H. A. HAYNES: Definitely so.

HON. B. F. DIAS: Mr. Speaker, I have
the honour to move the first motion
standing in my name:
That this Council makes the Legis-
lative Council (Amendment) Rules,
Copies of this Paper have been circu-
lated some time ago to give members a
chance to study them alongside the ex-
isting rules. I would refer, Sir, to 3
sections of the 1959 Order in Council:
Section 34 of the St. Vincent Constitu-
tion Order in Council 1959, which reads
as follows: "Subject to the provisions of
this order the Legislative Council may
make amend and revoke Standing Or-
ders for the regulation and orderly con-
duct of its own proceedings and the
despatch of business and the passing,
instituting and numbering of Bills and
the presentation of the same to the
Administrator for assent." Section 44
reads, Sir: "The Legislature may by law
determine and regulate the privileges,
immunities and powers of the Legislative
Council and the members thereof, but no
such privileges, immunities or powers
shall exceed those of the Commons'
House of Parliament of the United King-
dom or of the members thereof." But the
most important section, Sir, is Section 68
which says as follows (Section 68 of the
1959! Order in Council): "The Standing
Rules and Orders of the Legislative
Council as in force immediately before
Part IV of this Order comes into opera-
tion" (that is to say, Sir, in force on the
date of dissolution of the last House)
shall, with such adaptations and modifi-
cations as may be necessary to bring
them into conformity with this Order,
be the first Standing Orders of the Leg-

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Legislative Council Rules -

islative Council established by this Order
as if they had been made in pursuance
of section 34 of this Order." And I can
assure the House, Sir, that in drafting
these proposed amended rules, I took
into consideration only the then existing
Standing Rules together with the pro-
visions of the Order in Council. I tried
not to make any new orders, merely to
bring the existing Standing Rules and
Orders into conformity with the present
Constitutional Order in Council. I there-
fore move, Sir, that this Council proceed
to make these rules.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members, I beg to second the

HON. B. F. DIAS: Sir, with your per-
mission, there was one printing error
that I tried to get amended but nothing
has been done about it. It was the only
one I saw but I would be glad if Hon-
ourable Members came across any others
if they could point them out to me. In
paragraph 2 Rule 2-C "by inserting
therein the following definitions" that
should read "definition". My typescript
read "definition" but the printers made
an error and I have asked then to
amend it from "definitions" to "defini-
tion". Rule 2- C "by inserting therein
the following definition."

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, may I
commend the Honourable Attorney Gen-
eral on his industry in seeking to speed
up these draft rules which will take the
place of the rules by which this Council
is governed under Section 68 of the Or-
der in Council which the Honourable
'Attorney General has been so kind to
circulate, that this Section 68 empowers
this House to proceed under the old rules
until such time as rules are made under
Section 34. Now, Mr. Speaker, what has
been done under this Order in Council is
that an attempt has been made to put
an end to certain aspects of colonialism,

Amendment to

to try to remove the stigma of colonial-
ism under which the people of this terri-
tory have been forced to exist in the
past. And I think that the Honourable
Chief Minister has been one of the
strongest advocates in the hue and cry
for putting an end to such colonialism.
And I would like to draw to the attention
of this Honourable House an aspect of
these draft amendments which stands
out and which I would venture to hope
if it has not struck him before, now
that it is drawn to his attention to
impress the Honourable Crown Attorney
-It seems to me what is taking place,
the moment the Opposition attempts to
draw the attention of the House to
anything in the interest of this House
or in the interest of our territory Mem-
bers opposite seem to feel that we are
just simply opposing. They forget en-
tirely that yesterday they were mem-
bers of the Opposition and appreciated
to the fullest extent the duties of the
Opposition in this House. We have a
mandate from the people here and it is
our duty to draw to the attention of this
House matters which we feel are in the
interest of the people and if the Hon-
ourable Members on the other side would
* try to exercise some show of tolerance
they might be able to appreciate certain
aspects of the points that are raised
here. But the moment that an Opposi-
tion Member gets up from his seat you
can see the wrinkless on certain Mem-
bers' faces and they at once take up the
attitude that they are ready to fight.
Fight what? Anything that we bring up
here is intended to be in the interest
of the smooth running of this House and
for the betterment of our territory as
a whole and I urge members to use that
approach. If after examining the ques-
tion they feel that they cannot adopt
any suggestions or proposals that are
made on this side, then they have the
benefit of the majority on that side
which they can exercise. But don't
without weighing up' a point or weighing

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Legislative Council Rules -

the merits of any suggestions that might
be made, take up the attitude that the
Opposition is out to oppose or take on
the role of a Magistrace's Court or to
submit you to a cross examination. Our
duty here is to seek information for our
benefit and for the benefit of the people
of this territory. If there are members
here who feel that we have no right
here, let them say so.' If there are
members on the other side who feel that
they are opposed to the principle of
democracy let them say so. And let us
know from the outset where we stand
but if Members believe in the principles
of democracy and if members on the
other side appreciate that it is our
bounden duty to come here and make
suggestions and to propose and to be
critical on matters which are brought
here, then they must not get unduly
worried when we are exercising our
rights. I am hoping that these few
remarks will be accepted in the spirit in
which they are made.
Let me now draw the attention of
Honourable Members to what these
amendments of these draft rules seek
to do. Under the old rules, we had a
President in this House, that President
was the Administrator. And under the
system which then prevailed, the Ad-
ministrator was given tremendous pow-
ers as the Honourable Chief Minister
should be the first to appreciate, those
powers having been used to rule against
him on so many occasions as reported in
the Hansard which I have perused in
recent times. Now that we have taken off
these political short pants and power has
been placed in the hands of the repre-
sentatives of the people, we find that we
have occupying the place of the Presi-
dent, a Speaker, a Speaker elected by
this House, a Speaker whose role is to
preserve the discipline and order, to look
after the good conduct of the business
of this House and who, Mr. Speaker will
pardon me if I repeat it, is bound to
observe strict political impartiality. If

Amendment to

at any time the Speaker was associated
with any party, even the party to whose
votes he owes his seat in the Chair, at
once, on occupying that chair, he divests
himself of all political and party associ-
ations and sets out to observe strict
political impartiality. Now what the
learned Attorney General sought to do
here in these draft amendments is to
replace the word "President" by the
word "Speaker", and my suggestion is
that if it is left like that all that you
have done in making these new rules or
proposals is to divest the President of
the cloak of colonialism and of all the
power that went with it and put that
cloak or mantle over the Speaker; and
that is neither the intention of this
Chamber, nor indeed the intention of
the people who clamour for these
changes including the-Honourable Mem-
bers on the other side who clamoured
so loud and so long to have constitu-
tional changes brought about these same
constitutional changes. I hope that the
one time Member of the Labour Party
on the other side will appreciate the
point because it is a matter which he
had drawn to his attention and which
he had discussed time and time again.
There would be no point in having these
changes if all we do is to remove the
Administrator from this chair, replace
him by someone else and leave the
same colonial powers in his hand. Those
powers, Mr. Speaker, with respect, must
be put in the hands of the majority
party. They must be put in the hands
of the people who have a mandate to
run the Government for the time being.
Some members look surprised that I
should make this point, but perhaps
they will recall that when the Labour
Party, the party to which I have the
honour to belong, was in the Opposition
with no immediate prospects of taking
over this Government (that is some
years ago) we were among the first to
advocate changes from this colonial sys-
tem to a new system which would have

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Legislative Council Rules -

put power into the hands of our own
political opponents. But this is a matter
which rises and transcends party lines
and party barriers. I could sit here, Mr.
Speaker, and remain silent and see the
same system of colonialism continue re-
gardless of who is in power on the other
side but power must be placed in the
hands of the lady and gentlemen on. the
other side. They, for the time being, are
running the Government. They must
say how the affairs of this House are to
be run. The Opposition, of course, gets
a chance and an opportunity for discus-
sion and of airing the views of the
people who have put them here. In the
final analysis, the decisions are going to
be made by the lady and gentlemen of
the House, the people who have the
choice, and I do not want to see a mere
substitution of the word "Speaker" for
the word "President" wherever it occurs,
because if this is all that is done, you are
transferring in this spbstitutoin the
powers that formerly lay in the hands of
the Administrator. We want more than
that in this progressive day and age. We
want power to be transferred to the peo-
ple's representative and so the mere sub-
stitution of the word "Speaker" for the
word "President" wherever it occurs is
not enough because you still leave those
powers that were formerly exercised by
the Administrator in the hands of the
Speaker. And I feel certain that was
not the intention of the Honourable At-
torney General, and I would venture to
suggest that Honourable Members on the
other side would not be party to such
substitution. They themselves were the
first ones to take on this mantle of
authority under the new changes, don't
let us, Mr. Speaker, don,t let us accept
changes and by our own actions defeat
the purpose of these changes which not
only we in St. Vincent, but the political
thinkers political leaders all over the
West Indies are clamouring for at this
In keeping with these suggestions, Mr.

Amendment to

Speaker, you will have noticed that there
appears on the Order Paper a motion
standing in my name which seeks to
refer this matter to a select committee.
These rules, Mr. Speaker, where it is
purely a matter of a ruling from the
Chair in the event of a Question arising
out of a debate or a question as to
whether a motion is in order or not in
order, or, a question is in order or not in
order, or a matter of discipline, the rul-
ing of the Chair is paramount and the
Speaker has full authority. But when
it comes to matters outside of that then
the House itself must be the authority on
tiLese matters, don't let us be a party to
anything like this, Mr. Speaker. Let us
live in 1961, let us live in an age when
they are having a London Conference
on Constitutional changes when we were
brought down here on a mandate from
the people to attend an Inter-Govern-
mental Conference to bring about more
changes, don't come back home and be
a party to colonialism. I put that out
for what it is worth, Gentlemen, hoping
that you will accept it in the spirit in
which it is said. If any heat seems to
be emanated, take it that I feel strongly
about the turn over from colonialism to
representation by the people and regard-
less of whether we occupy this side of
the House or the other side of the House,
we want to see these changes brought
about and instituted. Maybe that is a
forecast of our confidence that very
soon the tables are going to be turned.

Now, Mr. Speaker, there is a motion
which stands in my name referring to
this matter. And with your permission,
Sir, I would like to read this motion with
a view to proposing an amendment to
the motion which has been proposed by
the learned Attorney General.

WHEREAS it is proposed to amend the
present Legislative Council Rules (S.R.
& O. No. 3 of 1954).

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Standing Orders -

AND WHEREAS these Rules and the
draft amendments do not reflect the
the spirit and intention of the present
Constitution governing this Legisla-
BE IT RESOLVED that a select Com-
mittee be appointed to draft Standing
Rules and Orders of the Legislative
Council in pursuance of Section 34 of
the Saint Vincent (Constitution) Or-
der in Council, 1959.
That is the Order to which my friend
the learned Attorney General referred to
a while ago and if any Honourable Mem-
bers would care to look at these old
rules which still have the force of law
according to Section 68 which gives them
continuance in spite of being passed
over. If you will look in this, you will
see that the President has no end of
powers, qL.ite a number of matters which
would n,; be desirable to put in the
hands of the Speaker and of course I
need no,, apologise since Mhr. Speaker
knows quite well that no personal slur
is intended 1, it is not a personal matter,
the Speaker-I feel confident of his as-
surance that I hold him in the greatest
and the highest esteem. The sentiment
I have previously expressed in this House
was in reference to the Speaker and
strictly to the office of Speaker regard-
less of whoever holds the post. I would
be only too happy to put these powers
into the hands of the present Speaker
as a person but we are dealing here with
a principle and I need not take up the
time of the House to go through in detail
there are very numerous sections in
these statutory rules, there are sixty-
four of them I appealed to them to
grant a demand which I submitted with
respect should be in the hands of the
House itself and consequently the maj-
ority party of the House and in spite of
the fact that I may not be altogether too
happy that the power might be exercised
in the right direction at all times yet it
is a principle that must be observed and
which I without hesitation would be the
first to try to ensure that you should

Appointment of Select Committee on

have the swing over from colonialism to
the new order arranged. In view of that,
Mr. Speaker, I beg to move that the
motion standing in the name of the
Learned and Honourable Attorney Gen-
eral be amended to read:
WHEREAS it is proposed to amend the
present Legislative Council Rules
(S.R. & O. No. 3 of 1954.)
AND WHEREAS these Rules and the
draft amendments do not reflect the
spirit and intention of the present
Constitution governing this Legisla-
BE IT RESOLVED that a select Com-
mittee be appointed to draft Standing
Rules and Orders of the Legislative
Council in pursuance of Section 34 of
the Saint Vincent (Constitution) Or-
der in Council, 1959.
HON. B. F. DIAs: Mr. Speaker, I am
afraid, Sir, that an amendment will have
to go to the board because I can't help
saying that these amendments are mere-
ly an interim measure, that is until, to
use the words of the Ordinance "until
the new Standing Rules and Orders are
made." Present Standing Rules and Or-
de:s shall remain law amended in con-
formity with the provisions of the Order
in Council. I think all members on that
side of the House, Sir, as well as mem-
bers on this side know how long, how
difficult it is to get a committee to meet.
With all due respect to the good inten-
tions of every member of this Honour-
able House, it might be a year before any
committee that has been appointed in
this House meets. It is always difficult we will be in a haphazard fashion
trying to find out what are the Stand-
ing Rules and Orders of the House.
Until these amendments are made we
will have, each time we want to find out
something, to go through the Constitu-
tion, go through the Standing Rules and
Orders what does the Constitution say
on this point -4 so that we can amend it
there on the spot in our minds and so
on. With these amendments here...

Thursday, 20th July, 1961
Appointment of Select Committee on

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, there
seems to be some misunderstanding in
this matter. The motion moved by the
Honourable Attorney General seeks to
have amendments. Either a committee,
a select committee or a committee of
this whole House will have to go through
these amendments. What I am seek-
ing to do is also to have a committee,
whether you meet in a committee pro-
posed by myself or you meet in a com-
mittee proposed by the Honourable and
learned Attorney General a committee
will have to meet; so the point in not
being able to get a committee to meet
doesn't seem to be relevant. And, in
any event you are going to be asked to
go through these rules and amend them.
Those are the proposals which the
Learned Attorney General himself put
up, the amendments which he has used.
All that I have pointed out is that it is
his proposed amendments and all that
he has done is to transfer, to substitute
"speaker" for "president" and I say he
should not do that. When the commit-
tee is going through these rules, whether
mine or his, take care that you do not
leave the same colonial powers in the
hands of the Speaker, that is all. The
committee has got to meet, whether
mine or yours.

HON. B. F. DIAS: I would like to point
out to the House it's not merely a ques-
tion of changing the word "Administra-
tor" to "Speaker" or "Deputy President"
to "Deputy Speaker", Sir, the Honour-
able learned and gallant member merely
pointed out a few of the minor changes
that could have been left out but there
we:e certain other changes, for instance
combining rule 7 with rule 8 of the pres-
ent rules the opening of proceedings and
of a quorum, that's a substantive change
there. Rule 11, there's another substan-
tive change there from the present Con-
stitutional Order in Council. Rule 26
which amends rule 35, Standing Com-
mittee on Finance and so on, that's an-

other substantial change there. Thers's
another one I haven't mentioned, Rule
10 which amends Rule 14 of the Princi-
pal Existing Rules that's a substantial
change in accordance with the new pro-
visions of the Constitutional Order in
Council. As I said, Sir, these are really
interim measures to bring the old
Standing Rules and Orders up to the
provisions of the Constitutional Order in
Council. I do not claim, Sir, that these
are perfect. As a matter of fact, there
was another proposal to have the Sec-
ond Clerk at the Table of the House of
Commons in the United Kingdom draft
model Standing Rules and Orders for
the Windward and Leeward Islands. I
don't know how far this proposal has
gone, how far it has been proceed with.
But I would say, Sir, with the greatest
amount of respect, that the present
amendments being proposed by me are
necessary so that any member of the
House in reading the Standing Rules
and Orders with these amendments can
sea just what are the Rules of the House
in accordance witi the Constitutional
Rules and Orders in Council. That is
why I say I cannot accept the amend-
ment to my motion without a vote of
lahe Council.
HON. R. M. CATO: I am not for a
moment suggesting that there are not
matters in these draft amendments
which are not relevant. I am not for
a moment suggesting that amendments
are not urgent and necessary, in' fact
so urgent and necessary that I filed a
motion a long time ago to have the
rules amended and brought up to date.
My motion has been filed a long time
ago asking that this very thing should
be done. So don't let the charge of not
knowing or not feeling that they are
urgent stand against me. My motion is
here on record and what I have been
seeking to draw to the attention of this
House-look at the very first page of
these rules, look at Section 3: Sittings

Standing Orders -

Thursday, 20th July, 1961
Appointment of Select Committee on

of the Council-"Subject to the right of
the Government to summon and convoke
the Council at any time, and subject
also to the right of the President to
vary the date for any ordinary meeting
for reasons which he considers exped-
ient, the sittings of the Council shall be
held on the first Thursday in each
month." We can start from there on and
we see that we are dealing with matters
which should be in the hands of the
House itself. It's done in the Houses of
Parliament, Mr.. Speaker; it is done in
the Federal House of Representatives
where the power is exercised by the
House itself; it is done in the Legisla-
tive Council of Trinidad and Tobago,
and in Barbados. Those powers must be
put in the hands of the House, and con-
sequently, as I have taken the trouble to
point out, they should be put in the
hands of the Majority party.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, I
want some explanation. I don't under-
stand what is happening here, whether
one person is monopolising the whole
Council and your ruling on the present

, MR. SPEAKER: There is an amendment
to the motion proposed by the Honour-
able Attorney General. The learned and
gallant Member for East St. George was
giving some explanation of the fact be-
fore the amendment could be put before
the House. Can you just finalise....

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I
do not propose to finalise the argument
to suit the whims and fancies of any
member of this House.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, I
think that you as Speaker of this House
there is an amendment before this
House to be dealt with and big, long,
cumbrous speeches are being made. No
whims and fancies at all, Mr. Speaker,
I have a right to rise here. The Mem-

ber is out of order. No one would
monopolise this House while I am here.

MR. SPEAKER: If there are not any
points of explanation being given by the
Honourable Member, I think the amend-
ment is put before the House as he is
making his explanation, I request him
to finalise it.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: The attitude was
taken . Why these aspersions?

HON. R. M. CATO: May I speak, Mr.
HON. R. M. CATO: NOW, I was pointing
out that there were a number of these.....
HON. R. M. CATO: Just one final plea
which I make-that Members need not
push out their claws the moment (I am
speaking metaphorically) ......

MR. SPEAKER: Could we deal with the

HON. R. M. CATO: And this is the sub-
stance, if you will permit me, Mr.
Speaker, of the point I am making. I
am not here to wrangle over petty mat-
ters, I am seeking to introduce what I
think are basic improvements into the
proceedings of this House, and as Your
Honour rightly rules, I have proposed
an amendment. Does the Honourable
Member realise that I can speak as long
as I like about this amendment? I am
seeking to shorten the proceedings be-
cause of the long Order Paper we have.
And if I can get the Honourable Attor-
ney General to accept my amendment
then we will shorten these proceedings
considerably. If he doesn't accept them,
then I can go on speaking for the rest
of the day.
MR. SPEAKER: I- may let the Honour-
able Chief Minister know that there is

Standing Orders -

Legislative Council Rules -

an amendment proposed to the motion.
There was a speech on that amendment
by the Honourable Member for East St.
George, there was discussion of it by the
Honourable Attorney General and the
Honourable Member for East St. George
has a right to reply before I actually
put before 'the House the suggested
amendment, and the House can either
carry it or discharge it.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, I am
in agreement with all that you have
said. I have a right also to speak on
the present motion. These remarks are
uncalled for and I have a right also to
speak on the motion. Nothing is going
to be side stepped at all.
MR. SPEAKER: Proceed to reply to your

HON. R. M. CATO: What I am seeking
to do at the moment is to persuade, it
seems as if the misguided opposition to
my proposal is going to defeat the pur-
pose of it, what I am seeking to do is
to get the Attorney General to appreci-
ate the point I am making and, if pos-
sible, shorten these proceedings because
my intention is that these draft amend-
ments, besides having a lot of amend-
ments with merit, have got in, as I
pointed out and as I see the Honourable
and learned Attorney General appreci-
ates, he appreciates it and probably
certain members on the other side, there
are certain sections in the proposals
which seek to perpetuate a system which
I believe we are all opposing. So, Mr.
Speaker, if I may take up a piece of your
time, this is not for the benefit of the
Opposition or people of this side, we are
seeking to give you the powers which
you are entitled to, which you are hav-
ing yourselves. And let me say, Mr.
Speaker, we are not doing it in the in-
terest of any members on the other side,
we are doing it in the interest of St. Vin-
cent and to see that St. Vincent takes
its proper status regardless of who is in
power for the time being. And so that

Thursday, 20th July, 1961
Appointment of Select Committee on

is my appeal to the learned Attorney
General, to accept the proposed amend-
ments. And let me just make one final
statement, that if the learned Attorney
General does not see fit to accept this
amendment, then as I understand it the
duty of the Chair is then to put the mo-
tion before the House and then I am
entitled to get up here and speak for
the balance of the day, and tomorrow,
and the next, if I want to do so.
MR. SPEAKER: I now put to the House
the amendment as proposed by the Hon-
ourable Member for East St. George,
namely that this Council amend the
Legislative Council Amendment Rule
1961 subject to the appointment of a
select committee to revise the Standing
Rules and Orders.
HON. B. F. DIAS: With due respect,
Sir, that amendment ...
HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, may I
suggest-the Honourable Attorney Gen-
eral has moved a motion. I have moved
an amendment and we are now putting
the amendment to the House. If the
amendment is accepted, it is carried and
if the amendment is not carried, we will
proceed to debate the motion of the
Honourable and Learned Attorney Gen-
MR. SPEAKER: Honourable Members,
there is an amendment to the motion.
I will put the amendment first:
WHEREAS it is proposed to amend
the present Legislative Council Rules
(S.R. & O. No. 3 of 1954).
AND WHEREAS these Rules and the
draft amendments do not reflect the
spirit and intention of the present
Constitution governing this Legisla-
BE IT RESOLVED that a select Com-
mittee be appointed to draft Standing
Rules and Orders of the Legislative
Council in pursuance of Section 34 of
the Saint Vincent (Constitution) Or-
der in Council, 1959.

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Legislative Council Rules -

Now that amendment would in effect
take the place of the substantive mo-
tion of the Attorney General.

Question put; Ayes 3; Noes 6; 1 ab-

MR. SPEAKER: The original motion
moved by the Attorney General is now
before the House.
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: I second it.
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: And now, Mr.
Speaker, I must ask this question. This
exercise of a debate was based on a sub-
stantive motion in this House and the
Attorney General, the mover of the mo-
tion, has spoken and the Member for
East St. George has spoken and I from
this moment can go on to speak, Sir?

MR.. SPEAKER: The Honourable Chief
Minister spoke on an amendment to the
substantive motion. He spoke by way
of erasing an amendment. The Honour-
able Attorney General has moved a mo-
tion and you have seconded the motion.
The Honourable Chief Minister can elab-
orate and expand on the seconding of
the motion as he desires.
HoN. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members, I am not enarmoured
by the brand of flattery enunciated
here this morning when Standing Rules
and Orders to govern this House were
put forward. I am not, I say, enamoured
by any flattery that appertains to my
fight for the restoration of democracy
or any form of advanced constitutional
government for colonialism because in
the vanguard of that fight in this island,
in this colony for those rights, the very
Opposition speakers today who are in
here to show their ability, their consti-
tutional prowess, militancy, those were
the very voices that were chopping to
pieces the very bulwark of those efforts
and I say, Mr. Speaker, when we sit here
and listen to these meanderings today,
those are only gallery playings to give
the public an opinion that a lot is being

Amendment to

done here. What is being done here this
morning is a total waste of time-to ac-
cuse amended rules and to give the
opinion to the public here assembled
that some people are giving dictatorial
powers to the Speaker when in truth
and in fact it is not so and that we who
toiled for whatever constitutional rights
and liberties we enjoy today are now
accused of upholding colonialism when
in truth and in fact, Mr. Speaker, while
these accusations are levelled in this
House to the gallery outside there are
attempts being made to usurp and over-
throw lawful British Government by
conspiracy and other means. Mr. Speak-
er, I say this, I could go on to. say in this
Honourable House-

MR. SPEAKER: That this Council makes
the Legislative Council (Amendment)
Rules, 1961. There it is at the very top
of the page.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: It was said here
this morning Sir, that this motion of the,
Member for East St. George reached in
ample time. Well the Government mo-
tion was there in ample time also and
no one can come here and forestall that
that their motion reached before the
Government had the idea when in
truth and in fact the rules were drafted,
printed and everything done long ago
and now we push forward the order
given out by the seven days notice that
must be given to members for the hold-
ing of a Legislative Council meeting at
all. Yet we are made here to under-
stand by the Member for East St. George
that his motion reached first. The only
indication we have, Mr. Speaker, that
a motion reaches first is that within the
seven clear day limit when the Order
Paper is published and each Member
gets a copy thereof then we cannot go
beyond that, any motion that arises af-
ter that, any motion that reaches after
that we then know that in truth and in
fact that motion reaches last. That's the
only indication, that's the only criterion
by which you can judge. The question

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Legislative Council Rules -

is, I made a remark earlier. The public
will soon become accustomed to this
type of fiasco and magisterial and su-
preme court debates here. They will
soon become accustomed as time goes
on to this period of all of that, so we
have no fear and we won't be stampeded
here, Mr. Speaker, by insults and deri-
sion. We have appealed to you, we re-
fuse to have them and whenever your
ruling and that is what this manoeuvre
is trying tj avoid, that the Speaker has
inadequate rules to govern this House
as in times past, in the immediate past,
the type cf bad behaviour of the House
should not have effect. If this is so, Mr.
Speaker, I am the first one to rule that
amendment out of order and move
against it and place these rules because
no one will forestall this House. The
rules are written in Greek according to
the gallant and lofty and hearty mem-
ber. Whatever is there in the Order
Paper can be read by every one of us
though some of us can't read. They
must take the Legislative Council Order
and prove that. Those others who can
read Greek, read it, because as we can
do it too, we can get Greek translated.
We are put here by the people's will, Mr.
Speaker and by that I am satisfied that
these rules brought here by the Attor-
ney General should have effect. I sup-
port them until such time as the whole
set of rules can be recast. The question
is, Mr. Speaker, I am satisfied here that
we have had a lot of turmoil in this
House by bad behaviour, the rude and
hooliganistic behaviour and the rest of
it, and we must have your protection as
far as that rule is concerned. When
men speak of colonialism and all of that,
they are only speaking through their
mouths, they don't mean it. They would
cover themselves with an umbrella to
get into power tomorrow and do worse
than what they seek to come up here
and talk in theory when in practice they
don't mean one word of it. I am say-
ing, Sir, that the question now arises
that these rules as explained by the
Crown Attorney, should have effect. I

Amendment to

don't think it needs any more debate on
my part.
HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I for
one am" accustomed to the arguments of
the Chief Minister and changing and
going on over to Sandy Bay and coming
back. He seems to have missed the
point completely, Sir. As a learned
Member of a legal profession, you your-
self can see that and this should be no
debate. His Honour the Administrator
was once member in charge of the Exe-
cutive Council and in charge of the pre-
sent office which you hold, Sir, which
we are proud of because it is a change
that must come and I can remember
when the Governorship was being abol-
ished in Grenada there were many legal
affairs there were many of us, it was the
Honourable Crown Attorney who had to
bring matters to our notice and change
from Governor to Administrator. All my
friend on my right is saying is that since
we have to amend the general rules, we
should form a committee instead of
amending one or two, that's all he is
saying. The Chief Minister doesn't un-
derstand, he doesn't care to understand
and his usual political hoooo! that's all
he's trying to stick out.

MR. SPEAKER: I don't think, Honour-
able Member that ...

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Thank you very
much, Sir, I was only wanting to say
with all due respect that the Chief Min-
ister doesn't seem to understand intel-
ligent suggestions and it can be seen
clearly that he is leader against the
wills of his members who are more in-
telligent than he, because what the other
members on.his side might decide to do
is to coordinate and cooperate with their
legal Crown Attorney so that we might
get together. And Mr. Speaker, Sir, you
would know that no Standing Rules and
Orders can be created by one side of the
House, it has to be by both of them. If
it reaches to that point, I myself, with-
out a knowledge of any legal matter,

Thursday, 20th July. 1961

SLegislative Council Rules -

would be glad to propose an amendment
and make these rules law in keeping
with the present Constitution. It is not
something we are trying to take away,
it is something we are trying to pre-
serve and Mr. Speaker, in my knowledge
of Parliamentary Government from
Westminster the Mother of Parliaments
-with your permission, Sir, I will read
a passage. If my friend the Chief Min-
ister wants to turn St. Vincent into a
totalitarian state then go, we will not
have the respect that we are having now
for our Sr 'aker. We need not have a
Le';islativc, C-,n:'1-but we have not yet
reached to that stage. That's why we
have a Speaker and a Mace as a symbol
of Her Majesty's power here. So, Mr.
Speaker, the first duty of the House of
Commons in its new Parliament is to
elect one of its members to be Speaker
and it is usual that the parties agree
on the Speaker. He may be a member
of any party but becomes a non party
member in the election, as my friend
pointed out earlier. The moment he
takes the Chair he swears to keep order
to preserve law and order and justice in
this House and then they go on to tell
us the role of Her Majesty's Opposition
and the role of Her Majesty's Opposition
as is read in this paper is not the oppo-
site of the Prime Minister and it is the
duty of the Opposition to oppose, that's
why it is called Opposition and it is the
duty of the Opposition to bring to the
notice of the people every wrong act that
the Government does. Mr. Speaker,
Sir, the duty of this Chamber we must
respect. It is the same democratic
rights they are respecting that's why in
party government the government is
run by the majority party and the Op-
position is here to keep that Govern-
ment on their toes by virtue of the
rights of the people and we are not go-
ing to stand here with all due respect
to you, Sir, and be bulldozed by the
Chief Minister either because of our
right, Sir, it is either for you to declare
this House a democratic state or a re-
publican or some Castro movement in
Cuba. ,

Amendment to

MR. SPEAKER: I think the Honourable
Member should not continue to use de-
rogatory remarks of that nature.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: I will withdraw
each time you ask me to, Sir. But I will
go on to say-which parliament is there
throughout the British Commonwealth
that hasn't got different views coming
from one side and the other. We listen
over the radio to Trinidad, we listen all
around, in any form of democracy, you
know that too well. And when we sit
here we are not in church and there are
some times when we get up we will be
very hot.

All that my learned friend on my
right was trying to do is to get us to-
gether to make something better with
rules for good government. The Chief
Minister gets up and doesn't understand
what is going on but I am glad to say
that we are going to settle down and
correct this side of the House. We are
not going to be bullied and as proof of
that right I am going to ask this ques-
tion. You must agree that we have the
right to express it and you should accept
the amendment but the people of our
country are going to pieces and they are
just voting against themselves by virtue
of ignorance.
HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, the
first opportunity that I am having to
address this House-I would like to take
a little time off to bring a few matters
to the notice of the Opposition. We have
no intention, Mr. Speaker, to sit here
and allow the Opposition to snub or
bulldoze, embarrass-or any other phrase
'ou may like-this Government or any
Ministers of the Government.
I listened to the Leader of the Oppo-
sition's remarks, he was speaking about
tolerance, the pushing out of tentacles,
claws, to stop the Opposition from ex-
pressing themselves in this House. You
will agree with me, Mr. Speaker that
that did not happen here this morning,
Mr. Speaker, before we really got on to
the business of the House ...

Thursday 20th July, 1961

Legislative Council Rules -

HON. L. C. LATHAMl: Mr. Speaker, on
a point of order. What are we debating
at the moment? (Laughter)

How. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, I shall
proLeed even with the interruption of
the Member for South Windward.

The Leader of the Opposition tried to
indicate to this House that as soon as
the Opposition tried to speak on any
motion before the House or ask any
question, Ministers, or Members of the
House got their faces wrinkled and were
prepared to fight. We are not prepared
to fight, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the
Leader of the Opposition attempted to
hoodwink the Government by telling
the Government that they are trying to
put more power into the hands of Mr.
Speaker. I shall not comment on that
remark made by the Leader of the Op-
position, however sincere or otherwise it
is. The position is, Sir, that on one
hand the Leader of the Opposition got
up this morning and said that we were
not carrying out in reasonable time the
business of the people of St. Vincent,
and then later on, in a very important
motion-as he states, Mr. Speaker, the
motion before the House is a very impor-
tant one-he condemns himself, Sir, by
trying to hesitate, to delay a motion be-
fore the House by setting up a select
committee, sir. The Leader of the Op-
position has every right to bring to your
notice Mr. Speaker, any amendments of
the pre.ent rules of the Legislative
Council, not only in this Horse, but out-
side of it. And certainly, Mr. Speaker,
if the Leader of the Opposition or any
other member saw fit that certain
amendments should have been made at
an earlier stage, he had quite enough
time to submit to you, Mr. Speaker, those
amendments. Bu.t why is it Mr. Speak-
er, that because we have put forward a
motion to the House to make certain in-
terim amendments, he should come here
to try to delay even those amendments.
Mr. Speaker, in the spirit of democracy,

Amendment to

as the Opposition calls it, in the spirit
of democracy, the Opposition has a
chance, Mr. Speaker, to bring forward
their amendments. They are a part of
the House. But why set out, Mr. Speak-
er, to oppose these amendments that
have been brought before this House by
the Government. Mr. Speaker, I listened
to the Member for South Leeward in his
usual outburst, Mr. Speaker, trying to
parade as usual before this House. I
don't think this morning at the first or
the second meeting of the House when
we are really getting down to the busi-
ness of the House, Sir, that before you
really settle a lot of the important busi-
ness of the House that the Honourable
Member for South Leeward should ram-
ble off in a political speech. It is unfair
to the House. We should really ap-
proach the business of the House in a
more sober and sane manner. There
are certain remarks, Mr. Speaker, nade
by the Leader of the Opposition and the
Member for South Leeward though I do
not make any attempt to bring them to
order, I would like them to know, Mr.
Speaker, that at later meetings- of this
House they will be brought to order if
they persist in that kind of debate and
I know, Mr. Speaker, that you have been
very easy in your handling as these are
the very first meetings of the House and
allowed the Opposition to ramble be-
cause, had not the Opposition rambled
this morning on this motion I would not
have been making this approach on this
motion. The motion before the House,
Sir, seeks to bring into being certain
amendments of the rules of the Legis-
lative Council. After that has been
completed, Sir, it is the right of this
House to make any other amendments
to the rules of the Legislature as they
may feel pleased. This motion before
the House does not debar the Govern-
ment nor the Opposition from further
amending the rules of the Legislature.
Mr. Speaker, the position is that we feel
that to fall in line with the Constitution
it is necessary that this motion go
through the House today and any fur-

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

their amendments that the Opposition
might like to bring can be brought for-
ward at a later stage. And the Leader
of the Opposition, himself, if he only
takes the time to read certain of the
tules of the Legislative Council-but,
Mr. Speaker, let us not delay, let us not
make political wranglings here with the
necessary things for the guidance of
this House. He attempted to say that
we are carrying out colonialism by
transferring powers from the Adminis-
trator to the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I
don't think that is quite a true, satis-
factory statement from the Opposition
and as he knows well, as far as this
Government is concerned, we will not
be bullied or controlled by colonialism
and at least it can be seen from the re-
port of a recent conference and con-
ferences attended by us that the Gov-
ernment has been taking every measure
to secure a proper form of government
for adequate and healthy government
for St. Vincent, but Mr. Speaker, the
Leader of the Opposition, of course, be-
ing new to the House must really make
his debate to the House and I really
cannot see, Mr. Speaker, why this mo-
tion should be brought by the Opposi-
tion this morning and I appeal to Mem-
bers of the Opposition that in spite of
the agenda, of the amendments, they
should vote in favour of the first motion
before the House.

HON. L. C. LATHAM: I will say a few
words, Mr. Speaker, on this motion. Mr.
Speaker, I got this Order Paper and, Sir,
it seems that the Attorney General and
the Member for East St. George did not
consult on this matter. I came to the
conclusion that as they are both law-
yers they could get together and make
the amendments to suit the House be-
cause to me it is the same motion that
the Attorney General .moved: that this
Council makes the Legislative Council
(Amendment) Rules, 1961. And the
Member for East St. George stated here:
BE IT RESOLVED that a select Com-

mittee be appointed to draft stand-
ing Rules and Orders of the Legisla-
tive Council in pursuance of Section
34 of the Saint Vincent (Constitution:
Order in Council, 1959.
Exactly the same motion- that this
Council makes the L.gislative Council
Amendment Rules-by the Attorney
General; and the Member for East St.
George-Be it resolved that a select
Committee be appointed. That is the
same, identical motion. And it is na-
tural that because th.e Chief Minister
flared up all of the Ministers would flare
up. I ca:'t see the reason why the Hon-
ourable Attorney General has refused
the amendment. Mayte I have not seen
the legal point why lie cannot accept
the amendment. We must form a com-
mittee o:' the whole House to amend the
rules, Sir, we must form a committee of
the whole House.

MR. SFEAKER: I think the Honourabl-
Member missed the point. The Honour-
able Attorney General said that certain
remedial measures had to be reconciled
for the moment.

HON. I. C. LATHAM: Yes, Mr. Speaker.
The sarie thing could .be done, Mr.
Speaker. A select coramittee could be
appointed because we do that several
times here to bring laws. We always
got a select committee of the whole
House to make laws. I think the Gov-
ernment really missed the point, Mr.
Speaker. I would like to refer to the
remark nade by the Member for the
Grenadines. He said that the Leader of
the -Opposition, as he is new to the
House, lie liked to elaborate to the
House. Well, it may be so, Mr. Speaker,
because in the operation of this House
some time in May, if my memory serves
me well, I found thai, there were two
new members, Mr. Speaker, who were
fortunate to have come from the Fed-
eral Parliament, they .re ex parliamen-
tarians. So they came from the High
School, in other words, Mr. Speaker. And
in this motion I heard the Leader of the

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Legislative Council Rules -

Opposition expla n in a legal way cer-
tain legal terms and he was speaking
about the Opposition and the Govern-
ment, but I am so sorry, Mr. Speaker,
that the Government misunderstands
his motion. If t.e Honourable Attorney
General had accepted his amendment,
this motion would have been finished a
long time ago. So, Mr. Speaker I think
that this motion will stay as it is.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, I rise
for two reasons. I am sorry that before
I had been given the opportunity to
.state the first reason the Honourable
Chief Minister saw fit ;o excuse himself.
Because it Was intended as a matter of
principlee to teach him a lesson in par-
liamentary procedure. Not understand-
.ng the procedure relevant to motions
before the House, he had the temerity
1d state that I had already spoken on
1;his motion. What he did not under-
stand is that I had proposed ar. amend-
ment and I spoke on that amendment.
The amendment was put to the vote
and it was defeated and now by the
substantive motion which is put before
the House I have the right to speak. It
is a right I am prepared to exercise, if I
am provoked, for the next couple of
days. I am not going to go over it, Mr.
Speaker, for the second reason which I
must mention-that if our endeavours
to put the Honourable.Members on the
other siCe on the right road going
to meet with this sort of reception we
will only record )ur protest, record our
views and let them carry on in the way
that they see fit. I would have thought
that at least the Honourable Member
f.or the Grenadines, who, as I indicated
earlier on, had the benefit of some train-
ing in these matters, might given
:,ome guidance tc his colleagues on the
other side but f::om what he has just
said, I can appreciate the reason for it.
He must have been sound asleep. He
made a reference a while ago to the
Opposition not bringing an amendment.
:Does he not realize what has been tak-
ing place the whole morning, that we

Amendment to

have brought an amendment to the mo-
tion put before the House and that this
amendment is being debated and he
spends a long time telling us that we
haven't brought an amendment. That
is exactly what we did.

HON. C. L. TANN s: Mr. Speaker, I did
not indicate an amendment of the mo-
tion. I said amendment to the rules,
Mr. Speaker.

HON. R. M. CATO: Some people, Mr.
Speaker, have a peculiar knack of add-
ing fuel to the fire. What is the motion
about, Mr. Speaker? The motion con-
cerns an amendment to the rules! If
the Honourable Member reads my
amendment ...

MR. SPEAKER: I think the Honourable
Member for East St. George should
realize that the Honourable Member for
the Grenadines is speaking on an
amendment to the rules as proposed by
the substantive motion. That is what
he meant, that anyone can propose an
amendment to the substantive rules,
proposed by the substantive motion.

HON. R. M. CATO: Not the substantive
rules, the substantive motion.

MR. SPEAKER: The motion proposed by
the substantive rules.
HON. R. M. CATO: Yes, yes.

MR. SPEAKER: Any amendment to
the ...

HON. R. M. CATO: Yes, and that brings
me to the other point, Mr. Speaker, a
point which I put forward on the very
first meeting of this Honourable House.
The very first motion which has been
put down here was an amendment to
the laws. You are going to open our
Legislative Council and see that the
rules which are in obvious need of
amendment-Isn't it that the very first
step taken should be to amend these

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Legislative Council Rules -

rules? That is why I want the motion
set down here because I find in actual
fact there was no motion on the order
paper brought from the appropriate
quarter, the quarter from whence it
should have come. If the Honourable
Ministers were on their toes doing their
job, doing the work that the electorate
put them here to do and what I want
to say here, Mr. Speaker, is that we have
made our contribution, we have tried to
show to the Honourable Members oppo-
site that they are taking a backward
and retrograde step. We have tried to
urge them to adopt a more progressive
attitude and not to feel that anything
that comes from the Opposition is some-
thing by which we are out, to do them
an injustice and let me take the pains
again to point out to Honourable Mem-
bers on the opposite side, Mr. Speaker,
we are doing this not as any favour to
any members opposite, we are doing this
in the interest of St. Vincent. So let me
clear the air of any misunderstanding
because one Honourable Member seems
to think that we are suggesting that we
are helping them. We are not out to
help you as individuals, as personalities,
we are out to help St. Vincent, we are
out to see that the Legislative Council
of St. Vincent acquires proper standing,
proper status, and we are out to co-
operate. So we are not suggesting for
a moment that we are doing you a fa-
vour. We are out to do our duty to the
electorate, to the people of St. Vincent,
those who voted for us and those who
didn't. We are representing all of the
people here and we are not going to sit
here and see you make blunders, see you
make the st1n'd type of blunders which
you seem so d tn'rmined 1,o make here
this morning without registering our
protest. We feel that any adoption of
these rules whether you go into commit-
tee to adopt them section by section, or
whether you adopt them lock, stock rnd
barrel, we are not going to be a party
to i` because we realize that included
in these amendments are certain unde-
sirable sections which Pre lot in keep-

Amendment to

ing with the progressive outlook of the
West Indies today and which defeat the
very purpose of the proposals of the new
We are going to make sure, Mr.
Speaker, that the records of this House
will show very clearly to Honourable
Members that we are not going to be a
party to backward measure which
is being advocated here this morning in
spite of the urgings and earnings of the
Opposition. We are going to make sure
that our protests are sounded and our
vote against this measure for the rea-
sons which I have stated here, is record-
ed in this House. We have made it quite
clear that there are sections in these
proposed amendments which are desir-
able and necessary, but there are sec-
tions which are undesirable and for
that reason, Mr. Speaker, I am going to
move now that the House goes into com-
mittee to consider these proposed

HON. B. F. DIAs: Mr. Speaker, I shall
be very grieved, Sir, I always hate to
see acrimony brought into these pro-
ceedings and I hope you will forgive me
if I attempt to take Honourable Mem-
bers from the heights of Mount Olym-
pus to which they seem to have climbed,
Mount Olympus where the gods are
perpetually quarelling, and bring them
back to good old earth where there is,
or ought to be, peace among men of
goodwill. And I hope if I am slightly
facetious Honourable Members will not
take me to task for it. We are told, Sir,
that there are a couple of (I wouldn't
use the expression boys here who
know their work and so on) a couple of
high school teachers come down here to
teach us primary school teachers, but I
hope, Sir, Honourable Members wouldn't
take it a miss if I remind them of the
old, old saying:-"He who can does, he
who cannot teaches."
Now my point is very brief, Sir, I quite
agree with the Honourable, Learned and
Gallant Leader of the Opposition that

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Legislative Council Rules-

it is quite necessary to have new rules.
It is going to take many months before
we can have these new rules formulated.
We-are going to have probably to get the
English House: of Commons Rules, the
rules- of-:parbados, Jamaica, Trinidad
and other places and we are going to
have to study.them plus study the Con-
stitution which is going to change in a
very short while, before we can incor-
porate these, new rules and only the
House can make these new rules, under
Section 34 of the Order in Council. My
attempt at helping this House, sir, ac-
tually it is to help the House in its work,
under Section 68 of the Order in Coun-
cil; to have right in front of them a pic-
ture of" what the rules ought to be at
the present moment until new rules are
made.- That is to say, to alter the rules
in conformity with the Order in Council,
that's all, and that is a quicker job, an
interim -job that can be done today
whereas, Sir, I can perceive from expe-
rience if we wait to form a select com-
mittee to formulate new rules we will
have these outdated rules for the next
year or so. We .have experience, I think
the Honourable Members on both sides
have experience of these select commit-
tees that' never meet.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, Sir,
on: a point of order.

HON. B. F. DIAS: Government has no
authority to do the job. In actual fact
there are only about half a dozen neces-
sary aamendments .in these amending
rules but I thought it would be a neater
job that while I made those necessary
amendments I would put in these small
things also to make a cleaner job of it.
Personally, I do not like amendments,
I'd rather see a new job done but this
would take a long time and that is why
I would like to see this thing done now
as an interim measure and then after
that we can have a select committee to
draft and formulate new rules entirely.
But -this is necessary that's why we are
-soanxious to get this thing done as an

Amendment to

interim measure; that's why, Honoura-
ble Members I moved a resolution to
have this done immediately.

MR. SPEAKER: Honourable Members the
question is whether these rules will be
passed en bloc.
HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, it has
been customary, when we have a bill, to
go into committee and study clause by
clause because sometimes there will be
errors. What we are trying to do is ...
MR. SPEAKER: I think the Honourable
Member for South Leeward should real-
ize that in the first place the Honoura-
ble Attorney General proposed the
rules, then in the second place the Hon-
ourable Member for East St. George
proposed an amendment to these rules
and it was in an attempt to give the
Honourable Attorney Generay an oppor-
tunity of considering them that I asked
if Honourable Members wanted to take
them en bloc or if they would consider
them rule by rule.
HON. R. M. CATO: In view of what you
have said, I must rise and form this pro-
test. I put out an amendment to the
motion. The motion asked that the
amended rules be put to the House. How
can I go through specifically rule by rule
when there are numerous rules that I
see are not in keeping with the trends
which I mentioned and the Honourable
Attorney General himself just stated
that he spotted about six of them there
and in the face of that we are going to
come to this House and approve rules
which the Honourable Attorney General
himself said are not in order, six unde-
sirable sections there . .
MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attor-
ney General said there were six of the
old rules which were absolutely neces-
sary, not that any of them offended in
any way.

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Judicial and Legal Service etc. Order-
Motion on
HoN. B. F. DIAS: Mr. Speaker, the
Governor General proposed to make an
amendment, a draft of which has been
sent to us, a copy of which has been
circulated to Members:
"Be it resolved that the draft Order
entitled the Judicial and Legal Ser-
vice Commission (Remuneration and
Allowances of Members) Order, 1961,
proposed to be made by the Governor-
General under the Windward Islands
and Leeward Islands (Courts) Order
in Council be approved."
I hope Honourable Members will al-
low me to read his further correspon-
dence of 12th July:
"I shall be grateful to receive your
early reply with particular reference
to paragraph 2 of the Savingram un-
der reference."
Before he can make an amendment
for the Windward and Leeward Islands
each Island will have to approve it by
resolution otherwise there will be no
legal motion and everything will be up-
side down.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, may I
say that the Opposition see no objection
to this draft order being approved.

Sitting suspended 12.20 p.m.

Sitting resumed 2.10 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Chief
Minister will please move the first mo-
tion standing in his name.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members, I beg to move
That this Council approve the
Schedules of Additional Provision re-
quired to meet expenditure in excess
of the Estimates for the year 1959 in
respect of the four quarters of 1959.

HON. H. A. HAYNES: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members, I beg to second the

Schedule of Additional Provision, 1959-
Motion on
HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, we
have been asked to approve the Schedule
of Additional Provision here and, I am
sure there are other Honourable Mem-
bers here who, like myself, would like
some enlightenment on this matter. We
have been given a schedule in respect
of this year the four quarters, to approve
items without a word of enlightenment
from the mover of the motion. I would
suggest that either he offer some explan-
ation or tell us exactly what he wants
us, the representatives of the people, to
do in respect of these items. Surely, if
they are in excess of the estimates some
special reason must have arisen to re-
quire this special expenditure. I observe
that a number of items have been ap-
proved and in all probability the items
are in order but surely we are entitled
to some explanation in this House, not
merely to be brought into this House to
act as a rubber stamp. I am sure that
ordinary democratic practices will be
observed by the Honourable Member.

HON. E .T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, no-
body is asking anyone to act as a rubber
stamp. These documents were circu-
lated. The Opposition Member or the
Leader of the Opposition or the Gallant
Member for East St. George has refuted
that this money was not spent, was not
passed through any Finance Committee
or was not authorised by any legal com-
mittee of the House. It is not written
in Greek, it is written in English. I can-
not stand here and recite item by item
like a fool and the whole Schedule is
recorded. They must condemn them,
refuse then and that is all because there
is no more explanation I can offer.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, Sir,
you see again how my friend on my right
got up. He is new to this House and he
asked for an explanation; he did not
condemn. There is nothing wrong with
his asking-he is new to the House. I
did not think he asked any wrong ques-

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Schedule of Additional Provision, 1959-

tion. Now again, just to hit back on
what I said this morning, Sir. This is
asking us for money spent in 1959. When
is this Chief Minister going to learn to
understand what we say? We are not
condemning the Government; for that
matter, I don't even think this Govern-
ment was in power. We are only saying
why is it that this was not legalised
before 1959 and I see my friend from
the Grenadines laughing. I am not for
one moment going to say inside here
that these expenditures were not justi-
fied because, as a member of Finance
Committee we went there. But why '59
and not '61? Although my friend didn't
bring that point, I'm going to make it a
little harder. You moved a motion, we
are here to adopt this. This is the Leg-
islative Council and if we haven't got
the right to come here well then spend
the money as you like, Mr. Speaker. And
I take it that my friend on my right
didn't insinuate any bad motives in the
Government. All he said is that he
wanted some enlightenment and if a
man refuses to enlighten this House
then what are we heading for? And I
would say that these expenditures were
justified. Some meetings, probably we
did not attend. There are certain items
in it which we have to read. Do you
want me to read and let the public
know then, Mr. Speaker or do you want
us to come here as a rubber stamp as
the Honourable Member said? Have we
got the right in the Legislative Council
to attack this or not to? We do not
'want to go into details, Mr. Speaker, but
the right has been given to me if I want
to read them out in detail but I am too
much of a gentleman to do that. But
it is not for the Chief Minister to say
that my friend hasn't got the right. He
only asked for an explanation and again
you can see......

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: On a point of
order. This is very important. In my
remark here, the Honourable Member

Motion for Approval of

for South Leeward as an old member of
this House knows very well indeed that
these matters -were done in committee;
they were brought here and any mem-
ber who wants to rack them to pieces
can spend the whole day, the whole year
arguing. It is right to do so. And the
question is that these things were al-
ready discussed in a committee of the
whole House called the Finance Commit-
tee of the Legislative Council and they
had the full set of files from the various
departments and now in the Legisla-
tive Council what must come after this
thing is approved and passed by the
Finance Committtee they are brought
here for approval and any member still
has the right to rack it to pieces whether
the Chief Minister spoke on it or not....

MR. SPEAKER: If I may make this
point, these are schedules for additional
provision; at the side of these items
remarks have been made to elucidate in
many cases exactly what the extra ex-
penditure is for and I think in fairness
to the Government there are no specific
items on which there is no elucidation
and if the Honourable and gallant Mem-
ber for East St. George desires informa-
tion on it I am sure that he will get
that information from the speaker.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, sir, I
crave your indulgence but it is a pity.
The Chief Minister has just given an
explanation that he should have given
before and I woulc not have been on my
legs. If he wants to play politics I can
play it also. My friend did not investi-
gate, all he wanted was an explanation
which he has just given and at no time
did he want to go into details. The
Leader of the Opposition, my friend on
my right, was quite right to seek an
explanation; he didn't ask for anything
else but I am glad, sir that the Chief
Minister in his second talk has given the
explanation and we are going to pass it
without going into details.

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Schedules of Additional Provision, 1959-

HoN. L. C. LATHAM: Mr. Speaker, we
can't sit down here in the Opposition
and tolerate that behaviour from the
Chief Minister. The Chief Minister is
the second man in command of St. Vin-
cent and we can't sit and tolerate his
nonsense. It is money spent and we
met in Finance Committee and finalised
this and it must come to the Legislative
Council and if a Member asks for an
explanation he can't make a noise, we
won't stand for it, Mr. Speaker, he must
learn to behave himself.
HoN. C. L. TANNIs: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members, it is not very right to
sit down and allow the Opposition to
make these remarks. It is not the prac-
tice, Mr. Speaker, that schedules like
these are brought to the House or what
is called the final and really legal sanc-
tion of the legislature though they are
approved in the Finance Committee.
These are expenditures, sir, that ought
to be approved which could not or had
not been ready at the time when the
budget was prepared. The Opposition
members know full well that they them-
selves have assisted in approving these
schedules here but it is necessary be-
cause of the laws of the legislature to
bring these here for a formal sanction.
MR. SPEAKER: I think the Honourable
Member for the Grenadines should re-
alize that as far as the Opposition mem-
bers are concerned there is one of them
who was not a member of the Govern-
ment when these schedules were passed.
HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, I re-
alize' that; I shall come to the point.
The Leader of the Opposition also knows
because he has dealt with this type of
affair in the Federal House of Repre-
sentatives. It is usually brought in the
Federal House in a similar fashion to
give sanction for expenditure which has
been incurred which had covering auth-
ority already, Mr. Speaker, and so it
is, sir, we are only asking that these

Motion for Approval of

schedules be formally approved to cover
expenditure over and in excess of the
estimates of 1959.

HoN. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members, perhaps I may rise to
reiterate with all the force at my dis-
posal something that I said this morn-
ing. When in good faith we of the
Opposition get up here to ask for explan-
ations, can I urge members of Govern-
ment not to set out their tentacles and
claws as if they were going to tear every-
thing to pieces. Here I am presented
with four quarters of additional sched-
ules. I note that on some of them there
are notes that they have been approved
by Finance Committee. Am I not en-
titled as a member of this Opposition,
.and as Leader of this Opposition to
enquire why this pile of additional pro-
visions dated back to 1959 is. now being
brought to this House? Won't a polite
reply in the terms as expressed by the
Honourable Member for the Grenadines
coming from the Chief Minister have
disposed of this matter quite easily if
he is prepared to give the respect to the
Opposition to which we are entitled and
which we demand in this house? We
are entitled to an answer to these ques-
tions and, Mr. Speaker, if the Leader, if
the Honourable Chief Minister wants, I
will now refer chapter and verse to sim-
ilar questions from himself and the
Member for the Grenadines when a sim-
ilar situation occurred on more than one
occasion in the past when you got up to
speak in this House and took umbrage
time and time again against provisional
estimates being brought for approval
which had piled up over, a period. Is he
now denying the Opposition the right
to ask similar questions which he de-
manded when he was on this side of
the House?
MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable
Member desire to enumerate any specific

Schedule of Additional Provision, 1959,-

HON, R. M. CATO: As I have indicated,
Mr. Speaker, I am quite happy. about an
explanation when it is offered, I believe
it is my right and my duty to ask for
explanations. I'm not going to sit here
as representative of the people and we
have been returned here by the votes of
over eleven thousand people and we are
not going to sit here and approve expen-
rliture of the people's money in any
rubber stamp fashion. I am entitled to
get up and ask why these items piled
up from 1959, why, have they not been
br-ought up here before? Why were they
underestimated for? Why this bulk of
them right now? And I am entitled to
a polite, positive. and comprehensive
answer from the Minister who is charged
with the responsibility for the public
funds in this respect and I hope that in
the future the Chief Minister, is going
to take a lesson from the Member for
the Grenadines who has been trained in
another quarter and give a proper and
appropriate answer as requested from
this side of the House.

HoN. H. A. HAYNES: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members, I seem to have .heard
from' the one-time Leader of the Opposi-
tion that the present Leader of the Op-
position is new and doesn't know the
procedure and what takes place in this

HON. H. F. YOUNG: On a point of
order, sir, not procedure. He is not a
member of Finance Committee.

HON. H. A. HAYNES: And I would like
to suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the Hon-
ourable Member must not display such
ignorance in future.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, I rise
on a point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: I don't think that the
Honourable Member used ignorancece" in
the sense in which you may think it is.

20th July, 1961
Motion for Approval of

I think he used it to express lacking in
knowledge of exactly what these moneys
were utilised for. I don't think he used
the word in any other sense at all.

HON. R. M. CATO: Because if he used
it in any other sense, Mr. Speaker, I
would like to state here that we will
brook no such impertinence from the
Member for West St. George. If he is
so ignorant of the usage of English that
he doesn't understand what the member
for South Leeward referred to, I'm new
here; of course I'm new here. This is
my first business meeting in this House
but what I have forgotten in procedure
of this House the Member for West St.
George won't learn for the rest of his
life and if any more of his impertinence
is brought up here .......

MR. SPEAKER: Does anyone desire any
further comment on these schedules?

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Yes, Mr. Speaker.
From all appearances you will perceive,
sir, that this is the type of venom, ani-
mosities and acrimonies that would take
place throughout this term of office. I
would ask you to observe, note that
from the very outstart of every iota, of
every item on the agenda of this House
the Members of the Opposition are
ready to swallow somebody alive and use
caustive language here and then in the
reverse order come and tell us that we
are doing so and won't offer an explan-
ation and use language here about rub-
ber stamp. The member, I call him the
member, ordinary member, no gallant,
he is not any more gallant than the
member for the Grenadines, not any
more gallant than the nominated mem-
ber. I say this, sir.. .....

HON. R. M, CATO: I rise on a point of
order. Will the Chief Minister sit down.
Mr. Speaker, I am exercising all the
right to which I am entitled as rep-
resentative of the people of East St.

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Schedule of Additional Provision, 1959-

George and I rise to draw the attention
of the last speaker to the fact that I
never refer to myself in any terms. If
the Honourable Member for Central
Windward is not familiar with parlia-
mentary practices in this respect let him
be enlightened by the Honourable the
Learned Attorney General sitting at his
left. As far as I am concerned, I'm here
as the people's representative. I under-
stand and I know that for certain speci-
fic reasons which ought to be known to
the Chief Minister, the proper reference
to me is the gallant learned Honourable
Member, whether he likes it or not, but
I don't care two pins about it. I don't
care two pins about having that nomen-
clature, that mouthful attached to me;
I haven't asked for it. -As a point of
order and I don't care whether it is
given or not, it is for the Speaker to
enforce parliamentary practices if he
wishes and the reference I think was
made by the Speaker himself and by
the learned Honourable Attorney Gen-
eral. I am not asking for it and I don't
care what you call me by, I'm going to
carry out the people's business here.
Maybe somebody should enlighten them.

MR. SPEAKER: It is normal for hon-
ourable members who are Barristers and
have served in the army to be referred
to as learned and gallant that is the
reason why the Honourable Attorney
General and myself have been referring
to him as such. Will the Honourable
Chief Minister proceed with the matters.

HON. E, T. JOSHUA: Yes, Mr. Speaker,
it is quite clear that these invectives and
tirades would continue because of the
rancour and animosity of the frustrated
member of this House and we shall
stand the shock of every one of these.

All I mean, Mr. Speaker, is that it is
quite customary that these schedules be
brought here. It is hypocritical to say
that a person who has been sitting in a

Motion for Approval of

Parliament, not a Legislative Council, a
parliament for so many months or so
many years would come here and try to
assume blissful ignorance to suit the
purpose of these attacks and invectives
and come to this Honourable House
and assume blissful ignorance of these
schedules of the estimates of the Col-
ony, moneys that were expended and
were not included in the estimates of
the colony when those estimates were
compiled. Those who believe that they
can come here and show off and waste
the time of this House by playing up to
the gallery are only displaying ignor-
ance, ignorance of matters that they can
see, ignorance in the broadest sense,
ignorance of the matters of the House.

These schedules are common, ordinary
schedules of any council's legislative
estimates because they could not be in
any country's estimates being drawn and
framed for a year with all of the expen-
ditures necessary for that year's budget-
ary conditions and satisfactions and any
person who had any acquaintances with
parliamentary rights would rightly know
what these addition expenditures

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem-
ber did not say that he didn't know
what they meant. He said he was not
familiar with the details.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: The details sir,
with all due respect to the Honourable
Speaker, are written in clear stereotyped
English and not in Greek; as he told the
Minister for Trade and Production in
this Council Chamber some of us might
be as ignoarnt of the English as he
wants to make out himself to be, he
most certainly won't. That's the way
with Vincentians, they always assume,
sir, something like some inflated baloon.
I am satisfied, sir, Mr. Speaker, that
these estimates are the expenditure ad-
ditional to that which is provided by

Thursday, 20th July, 1961
Schedules of Additional Provision, 1959/1960-

approved estimates of the last Finance
Meeting and the Budgetary that took
place in this Honourable House. These
additional were incumbent that public
services must go on and we ask this
Honourable House to approve them in
to law.

Question put and agreed to.

MR. SPEAKER: Would the Honourable
Chief Minister proceed to move the sec-
ond motion standing in his name.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members:

That this Council approve the Sched-
ules of Additional Provision required
to meet expenditure in excess of the
Estimates for the year 1960 in respect
of the four quarters of 1960

These estimates for 1960 are the same
as we have just approved. These ex-
penditures for the year 1960 were not in
the estimates for the budgetary period
1960 and come into this House to be

HON. H. A. HAYNES: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members, I second the motion.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, on
principle, it is relevant and it is custom-
ary before we had this Government of
consent that the civil servants and
Heads of Department drew up estimates
and most of the time by bringing up
the estimates the question of your
revenue, one kind of expenditure and
the other, that sometimes they would
put in this estimate a cat while it should
be a dog then come to us in Finance
Committee, Sir, and say they will say we
are going to quote savings and in quoting
savings we didn't study this so and so
and we want some more money but

Motion for Approval of

whilst in truth and in fact that want of
theirs did not go down on the estimates;
because the moment you have your ex-
penditure and your revenue what is
happening now is that it is time for
these Ministers to check on these heads
of department and to get a practical
estimate for St. Vincent. And they now
become Ministers and leave the esti-
mates in the hands of little girls in the
departments and not taking a careful
look on the country and that is what is
going on while they are supposed to have
all of these special warrants, sir and
whilst I'm passing it I'm saying that
these Ministers should try and draw up
some practical estimates and don't have
the pot or the vase spending thousands
of dollars unnecessarily. This one wants
a bus, this one wants a proper typewriter
and the poor people in the county can't
even get food, that's the point, sir.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, may I
ask a further question of the Honourable
Chief Minister? Let us take the year
1960. We have bean presented with ad-
ditional provisions for four quarters.
Would it be possible to bring these for
approval before the House at an earlier
date so that they could be examined be-
fore the end of the year or well into the
next year? Here we have the provisions
for January, 1960, brought at this date
in 1961 in four different quarters. There
have been several meetings of the Legis-
lative Council. Is it a matter of no print-
ing facilities? I heard something about
that this morning; or was the matter
shortage of staff? I would like to know
because I don't think that it's a proper
thing to have four quarters of estimates
piled up well into the following year,
matters which needed approval for the
first quarter in 1960-January, February,
March brought in July, 1961 and I
would like to know whether there is any
explanation to this if the Honourable
Chief Minister does not take exception
to my asking a question.

Thursday, 20th July; 1961

Schedules of Additional Provision,
1960- Motion for Approval of
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, I
take exception to nothing that is put
to this House. The question is I spoke
and I will reiterate what I said this
morning; the Member for South Lee-
ward, for instance knows exactly the
statement made by the Government
here, the documents for the Legislative
Council and all of them are now being
published right up to 1957 hansards are
now being printed and so on and that
is due to the fact not merely that we are
short staffed but the printing facilities
which we have now rectified, hundreds
and thousands of pounds have now
been spent in equipment and in the
future with additional staff the printing
facilities can be brought up to date so
that we can have matters for this House
immediately. The question is, sir, that
I can't understand the Member for
South Leeward when he talks about
little girls doing estimates. I say it is a
piece of cheek if not outright rudeness
that these people should come to the
Council and particularly insult the Gov-
ernment here. I take exception to that
type of crude behavIur in the House of
little girls doing this. A Minister is
directly responsible for the oversight of
his portfolio and it is his duty to have
maters under that portfolio fixed with
the officials appertaining to that depart-
ment. There are no little girls. I find
the behaviour in this House-from
little girls and little boys and coming
back to talk about this constitu-
tion. Mr. Speaker, the schedules
in respect of the year 1960 come to
the House now for approval. They are
the same as those for 1959 and I ask
this House to approve them.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, now
that we have had the adequate explana-
tion which we had hoped was forth-
coming in the first instance, the Opposi-
tion has no objection whatsoever to giv-
ing approval to this motion.

Administrator's Speech-

Question put and agreed to.

MR. SPEAKER: Will the Chief Minister
move the third' motion standing in his

HON. E. T. JosHUA: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members, I beg to move :that
this Council thanks His Honour most
sincerely for the kind and gracious
speech delivered from the Throne.

HON. C. L. TANNIs: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members, I beg to second the

MR. SPEAKER: Any Honourable Mem-
ber desires to say anything with refer-
ence to this motion?

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I had
the pleasure,- sir, of being in this House
from 1951 and most of us, including the
Chief Minister, had the pleasure of'com-
ing around this table With the exception
of a few. I have seen the Government
with certain constitutional changes,
from five seats to eight seats, from an
Executive Council; and my friend from
the Grenadines and myself Once formed
a committee, a mock form of ministerial
government in the days of Coutts. Then
again we have seen the constitution
change in midstream during my time to
have the ministerial status, not as fully
fledged as it is now, because we did not
have a true party government to reach
where it is today with the Administrator
who was then our guide and who was
then a member of Executive Council;
and you saw as a symbol of another con-
stitutional change-our Speaker. There-
fore we have this speech from the
Throne. Because, by virtue of the con-
stitutional change, His Honour the Ad-
ministrator is now the representative of
Her Majesty the Queen and When he
speaks about his' Government"which I'in
going to quote here, he speaks about

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

administrator's Speech-

the Goverrunent of the people and for
the people and not his own wish as hap-
pened in the past. Therefore, I don't
want to be misquoted when I start to
read these extracts from the speech that
iis Honour the Administrator spoke of
his own will; but this is supposed to be
written, apart from the preface or part
from the preamble, by the Chief Minis-
ter on behalf of his Government. So I
will start, sir, not from his address, but
from the broad objectives. "The objec-
tive of my Government is to strengthen
the social and economic welfare of all
the people of the territory in keeping
with discussions taken at our inter-
governmental conference towards the
attainment of independence within the
British Commonwealth. This objective
will be attained, we hope, when West
Indian delegates visit London on 31st
May third year. My Government further
pledges its support to the Federation of
the West Indies, bearing in mind our
motto "to dwell together in unity". I'll
step there, sir. I also had the pleasure,
sir, of attending some very vital con-
ferences leading to this Federation in
Jamaica, in Barbados, in Trinidad and
for the information of this House, sir,
having attended those conferences, you
must realize that I also gathered some
experience; I'm very glad of that
experience. I was privileged to vote at
the time, sir, when three islands were
mentioned and did vote for Trinidad
for our Federal Capital and I was also
privileged to be there when the con-
stitution of the West Indies was being
decided on so when I speak here today
I'm speaking with a certain amount of
experience and authority given to me
by my people. The object of the Gov-
ernment the social and economic wel-
fare naturally. But what have we
seen happen for the last three or four
years? That this Government voted,
voted for and on behalf of the people
and changed from Government of ad-
ministration to the Government of
themselves. We have seen the ginnery

Debate on the Address

gone and is not built back, we have seen
the boys' school with the serious situa-
tion that we have in this island, sir,
burnt to pieces and not built back. We
have seen the Marketing Board take the
potatoes and dump them at Wallibou.
We have seen this Government all
that they have done is to further their
own interests and get something for
themselves. The peasantry of this coun-
try has gone to pieces. The agriculture,
sir, which we depend upon so much for
the general revenue of this country to
give other services, the incentive has
gone; bananas is out of the hands of
the small man, no fertilizers. We have
seen that certain government, even gov-
ernments with industrial developments
subsidise their peasants and by subsidy
your revenue comes right directly from
the hands of the customs, your buying
power. We have seen now in Kingstown
that business men have goods on their
hands, overdrafts on their hands be-
cause the average man cannot get work.
We have seen this Government with
mass ignorance in Ministerial status.
We have seen our Education, our prim-
ary schools gone to pieces because if the
top is bad then the bottom naturally
must be. If you want to poison water
you just have to go to the head of it.
Naught from naught leaves naught. Can
I as Minister of Education direct the
educational policy towards creating a
new nation when the Education Office
itself is not qualified, the Education Offi-
cer is only acting drawn along like
boats in a canal. Up to now no quali-
fied Education Officer. We have seen the
Minister for Social Services and Educa-
tion who sits right there as a symbol of
education, one of the greatest things in
our new nation, the Chief Minister has
the audacity in Finance Committee to
put someone who can't read himself to
be in charge of our children.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: The qualifications
for the Legislative Council-I rise upon
a point of order the qualification for


Thursday, 20th July, 1961
Administrator's Speech- Debate on the Address

the Legislative Council is that you Opposition and the Government should
should be able to lead and write the get together for the common good. Why
King's English. It is imputing stupid was it fitting for the Member of the
motives, not even improper motives that Grenadines who had been the leader of
a big mouthed man can talk these the Opposition here to attend that Con-
things in this place. ference and the last conference after
MR. SPEAKER: I do not think that is the election without a mandate from the
in order. I think you should withdraw people when the Labour Party, the three
that statement. of us here, have half of the votes of the
that statementpeople of St. Vincent and they did not
HON. H. F. YOUNG: I withdraw that, find it right and democratically so to
sir, and I am very sorry if I hurt. It carry another member of the Opposi-
must hurt when this is my country. tion? S) we find that only a member
Then we go on, sir, the attaining of in- wiho has passed and walked across the
dependence. We are-ha ha Mr. Speaker, floor as a member of this Government
the Chief Minister said I could have but that isn't all. At that conference
nothing to uo with it. It is proved be- in Jamaica, before, sir, getting back to
yond a shadow of doubt that from '51 this first paragraph the broad objec-
to the last election .that my people in tives, I moved a motion in that House
South Leeward have given me another for Freedom of Movement into the capi-
mandate, a vote of confidence higher tal site. At that time, sir, the capital
than that of any man sitting around site was then supposed to be federal
this table. Therefore from '51 I have territory. The restrictions from emigra-
improved in status instead of going tion had a right outside of the territory
down. When I speak, sir, I speak aath- as far as Trinidad was concerned. Dr.
oritatively and I once : ad to deal with Eric Williams was trying to get the capi-
a Ministerial system as the leader of this tal and as a representative of my poor
House, thanks to the English Govern- people, Jamaica was the capital figuring
ment. Therefore, sir, I go on to say. because of the lack of employment. It
"The object will be attained, we hope, is a very difficult thing to say'- I want
when the West Indian delegates meet in freedom of movement into the capital
London." Whai; do we find happening? site because I vote for you and he had
The Chief Minister went to London but to agree and that would mean that a lot
the conference before it was parlia- of our people in the Lesser Antilles, St.
mentary right, it was right from a demo- Vincent and Grenada would have gone
cratic point to take a member of the there to build that Federal Capital site.
Opposition with him. And I see my We know what has happened since then,
friend from the Grenadines writing. He the issue of Chaguaramas being a mil-
can write as long as he likes for I don't itary base and we were forced to rent
know when I am going to stop. The places, but with money and the idea is
member for the Grenadines went along still there for a federal capital site. We
on that conference before this as the see how it is that the Chief Minister
Leader of the Opposition. And you went to London and instead of keeping
know, sir, that in any democracy when up a front to adopt freedom of move-
it is a national issue they do not leave ment he has sided with Manley and
out the Opposition. If it is in an issue Williams no freedom of movement for
of policy, then by all means the Gov- nine years. Lord have mercy. Isn't that
ernment, by virtue of a majority, can selling the country that is feeding him?
do what they want, but when a national All the principles of Federation accord-
issue is at stake, then the Leader of the ing to all kinds of people is based on

Thursday, 20O
Administrator's Speech-

having freedom of movement. Ah it's
the broad objective.

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Come, come, this
is ........

HON. H. F. YOUNG: The very broad
objective, Mr. Speaker, thank you very
much for not listening to the Member
for the Grenadines, the truth must hurt.
And that broad objective is so broad
that I am going to be very broad. Mr.
Speaker, sir, we find Barbados, we find
St. Kitts, we find Grenada Gairy
actually clashed with Mr. Cline and
threatened to take away his Chief Min-
istership. But Dr. Eric Williams is right
because he was sent out there to repre-
sent Trinidad and Tobago. How right a
man must be to defend his wicket and
how wrong must I be to go and join
with him against freedom of movement
when our life blood hangs on it. So what
happens now, Mr. Speaker, is this, you
had Grenada, you had St. Lucia, you
had Barbados and St. Kitts and you had
our worthy, honourable and worthy
leader of this country talk and talk but
deeds . . go in there to Eng-
land and sell the birthright of his
people by voting against freedom of
movement. It doesn't hurt us around
this table, sir, it doesn't hurt my worthy
friend, Mr. Barnard, or myself, we can
go to Trinidad in the morning and they
would not look for us. They know we
would come back; but it hurts the core
of the ordinary man, the poor man in
the market who can get on a vessel deck
and that's the man who the Chief Min-
ister talks of and refers to as the mass.
It is the poor man, the barefooted man,
the man in the gutter who can board a
vessel deck, that is the man that is
stopped, that is the man to whom no
employment is being offered, that is the
man whom the Government sought out
doing Bequla canal, that is the man
who the tourism that is the man who
is right now with his hands in his lap
and that is the man with the purse

th July, 1961

Debate on the Address

strings of our country in his hand and
the poor ordinary man is debarred from
making a living. Mr. Speaker, sir, I
live in a very poor community and I see
that they are going away to England
day after day mortgaging their little bits
of land, boyfriend sending for girl-
friend.-England is a very cold climate,
climate that you sometimes can't afford
and it seems that although you are ask-
ing for independence and you are beg-
ging the Englishman not to stop the
migration you are preventing migration
in the West Indies. While they were
beseeching the Englishman not to stop
the poor West Indians from coming the
same West Indians will say not to go to
another country and we are federated.
This federation, sir, would only mean
something to the politicians; federation
will only mean something to these fed-
eral boys seated around this table and
nothing to the poor man, absolutely
nothing. Money will be spent, thousands
of dollars for the services that will never
reach the poor man because it is mean-
ingless. Mr. Manley on the one hand,
I know very well, had his industries in
Jamaica and by virtue of his industrial-
ization he had to put out ties and bar-
riers on imported goods therefore Mr.
Manley was saying that Jamaica must
not have customs union because it would
interfere with his concessions. But are
we taking Mr. Manley's stand? I have
a little book here: "The first duty as a
representative (this is British Parlia-
mentary Practice) is to his constituency,
the second to his country" because your
constituency comes first and your coun-
try after; it is the people around you
that you have to mix with and
know and if we are going to leave
these shores and join forces with Mr.
Manley and support Jamaica then I
would say it is better for St. Vincent to
go back under the Administrator and I
mean it from the depths of my heart;
it is better for St. Vincent to drop out.
We can't afford this type of business
and it is better for us to stop all this talk

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

about Federation and become a crown
colony against our own wishes which
would be wrong. It is meaningless to the
average man in the road with more
seats, 60 more seats in the Federal
House for what? Federal Chief Minis-
ter for what? and when it reaches to
the point, Mr. Speaker, when the aver-
age man in the road who voted for you
and who has to pay for us all has no-
thing to get out of it but misery because
the more top heavy the administration
becomes it is the more suffering he will
have to bear.

Mr. Speaker, I am going to trespass on
something here that I figure-it is my
own way of thinking. This Federation
-while I'm very much in favour of our
being a nation it's a good thing to be a
nation, I think we are going far politi-
cally; educationally and economically
we are not getting anywhere. When the
Chief Minister and his ministers sit
down around this table and as true citi-
zens of the people raise their salaries
from $500.00 to $900.00 and want to raise
other Ministers' salaries to $750.00 that
cannot mesh and the Minister himself
wants to be taught or herself wants to
go to school. Then God have mercy on.
our country, because you cannot give
what you have not got and I will tell
you this, that if this Federation means
anything to us-I mean this from the
very depth of my heart we should then
have in these small territories nothing
but good local Government and a strong
Federal Government otherwise we are
giving and taking. What is the idea of
going to London and making a weak
Federation with no economy and each
territory is a big boss, big legislature,
big ministers and you still have to carry
that Federal Government and you still
have to go back to ask those poor people
for a vote for two men because each
man in his own territory has become
such a big shop that he doesn't want to
let go for the common good of his peo-

Debate on the Address

pie. Mr. Manley and Dr. Eric Williams
know too well that financially Trinidad
and Jamaica can stand on their own
legs but their set up is so big that we
little places-they could just put us in
their pockets. It isn't anything for Dr.
Eric Williams to aspire to be Prime Min-
ister for 9 million dollars as against
millions of dollars in Trinidad. Where
is this brotherhood coming from? Where
is this unity and this money? We are
spending forty-five dollars a day for three
men to go to England for over forty days,
going to England to do what? To vote
against freedom of movement, the only
essential, the only thing that means
something to this island. So this Gov-
ernment spends thousands of dollars to
send three representatives, one, in fair-
ness to him, the Crown Attorney was
the legal adviser; two representatives
spending the taxpayers' money plus the
ministerial salary to go against the best
interests of the poor man in the country
not ourselves sir, we may be poor but we
can still do a little better. The Chief
Minister got back here and all he could
talk about is that Cato sent him a cable;
and let me unravel this cable to you:
Cato sent a cable on behalf of the St.
Vincent Labour Party, Bousquet sent a
cable, Bustamante sent a cable the Op-
position had a right to send a cable and
we sent a cable saying that the people
of St. Vincent wanted freedom of move-
ment and advocated Federation first,
freedom of movement after and when
you look through in the paper you will
find that after nine years if the Trinidad
Government doesn't agree you still
wouldn't have freedom of movement.
Therefore what is the poor man moving
towards? Every poor man in this coun-
try is going to have to pay taxes on his
sugar, his milk, his mattress because it
comes through the customs and now
that the house and land tax is raised he
will escape into the country. What
would Federation mean to him if he
cannot move freely backwards and for-

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

wards? We have seen the little girls
and boys leave these shores and go to
Trinidad for years and they get a job
and look quite clean and good; this
emancipator, this martyr, this apostle
and this Paul, Saul of Tarsus is going
to come ahd tell me that he was advo-
cating the poor man's cause when he
joined with Manley and Williams to say
no freedom of movement. Then Gomes
is wrong, then Bousquet is wrong, a clap
on the shoulder by Manley, who, natu-
rally was serving his country and a clap
on the shoulder by Dr. Eric Williams,
my personal friend, naturally, for the
protection of Trinidad and Tobago. And
we in the Opposition know too well that
if the smaller islands had joined togeth-
er they would have been able to succeed
but four got together and three toed the
line. Whatever happened to those, what-
ever passed under the table-but it is
a sin.

MR. SPEAKER: That is improper and I
ask you ...

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Thank you very
much, sir, and I withdraw it, I withdraw
it with pleasure, sir.

Economic Development: My Govern-
ment over the past 31/2 years-I go on
to Economic Development. "My Gov-
ernment over the past 31/2 years has
been directing itself to the economic ap-
praisals of the Territory. In general, so
far as they are known at present, the
resources as a whole do not represent.
a satisfactory total when viewed against
the background of our rapidly growing

Mr. Speaker, we have lands in the
Land Settlement Estate- thousands of
acres-we have lands in Camden Park,
we have lands lying idle into the Layou
Valley into the Spring Village Valley
with roads which the Government spent
thousands of dollars to pitch. Some-

Debate on the Address

times I wonder if pitching the roads in
the interior was justifiable or not. At
the time we thought so and it is a very
good idea. But as you go into Hermitage,
sir, and you go into the valleys you will
observe that some of the streets are bet-
ter than those in Kingstown, Back
Back Street you see here, sir. Some of
them are pitched to Diamond and all
around, a wonderful idea. But where is
the plan? Where is the whole agricul-
tural staff that you have? Where is the
loan bank for the peasants? Where is
this scheme for marketing stuff except
arrowroot and bananas that are proper-
ly marketed. The Government instituted
a Marketing Board and we asked a ques-
tion this morning. I wonder, sir, if the
Government knows why we are asking
these questions; its to come behind the
figures, the thousands of dollars to buy
potatoes at a penny a pound, pass an
ordinance and stop the poor speculator,
interfere with the economy of the coun-
try, interfere with the peasantry that it
has lost interest, that they had to throw
into the sea at Wallibou. Then they
come here and tell us they are experi-
menting in making starch. The Minis-
ter for Trade and Production said it was
the only thing to do to save their necks,
thousands of dollars by buying hundreds
and thousands of potatoes at a penny a
pound; but even if they wanted to make
starch, sir, they could easily have taken
out the bad ones. The poor peasants,
being struck by this penny a pound-
they didn't expect it because they were
accustomed to this up and down price,
demand and supply-but because of an
ordinance passed by this Government
they had no alternative. For your in-
formation, sir, I was in the Government
when the Marketing Board came about
or was dreamt about and the whole
purpose of that Marketing Board was to
assist the peasants, not to speculate on
the peasants, so they got a C.D. & W.
grant to foster the economy of their
country and instead of fostering it they

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

have killed it. I worked in the land a
little and have some knowledge of it,
formerly they had to separate the bad
potatoes from the good ones at the Mar-
keting Department which was right so
that We could have a reputation but they
start by sending them to Walliabou and
all of the rotten ones were mixed with
the good ones so how could you have
starch fit for human consumption? It
is smelling and decaying; the starch is
black and funny because they did not
take out the bad potatoes from the good
ones and the poor man who was selling
his potatoes was glad because he was
offered a penny a pound for putting any-
thing for the weight. Naturally, who
wouldn't do that. And I don't want to
go back over the figures, later on you
can decide on your motion. But you can
see thousands of dollars of expanse, Mr.
Sprott's salary and all the set up, and
the air-conditioned office and the poor
peasants have gone out of business. And
when I brought a motion here to ask
the Minister of this Government to let
us go down to Trinidad and investigate
-No, it came from the .Opposition, don't
worry. Mr. Speaker, the people have
got to know and for the people around
certain areas it was the only source of
livelihood; they planted that whole area
in and out and they have reached a
point that they have started to spread
fertilizer and were able to increase the
production. Today the price of potatoes
is $18.00 a bag but they are still offered
$5.00 in St. Vincent. The Marketing
Board has cheated itself to such an ex-
tent that they have lost and the Market-
ing Officer had the audacity to print in
the papers that anyone caught sending
potatoes to Trinidad would be prose-
cuted under ordinance so and so whilst
that purpose was for them and not to
be used. That is what happened in
your country and if that isn't so-every-
body knew it. Because, never in the
history of St. Vincent have we seen
trucks passing with potatoes toting to-
wards a mill; at no time did we make

Debate on the Address

starch with potatoes; at one time I con-
soled myself that this might be quite a
good experiment, out of evil might come
good. But what happened? They didn't
take away the bad potatoes and only
use the good ones, that would have been
a sensible move and they would have
starch there, you could almost write it
off, or probably some of the big planters
might buy it for stock feed but if it is
too sour it will humbug the animals too
because in these scientific days you can't
give animals everything to eat. So as
far as this ,,white paper says about eco-
nomic development I have seen none.
Some time ago myself and the Minister
for Trade and Production went to Anti-
gua and we attended a Cotton Confer-
ence, Whitaker, which we are a part of,
a big organisation and the Federal Gov-
ernment has framed a Marketing Board
for the West Indian Cotton with statu-
tory powers, the cotton price has gone
up, a crop which has put thousands of
dollars into the coffers' of this country, a
crop that helps our old ladies, a crop
that the little girls can help their moth-
ers and at Christmastime get their
bonus, but psychologically, not an indus-
try because they are not worrying with
cotton therefore St. Vincent has lost her
crop. For the information, sir, of the
members opposite and I believe I am
right in saying this there are certain
areas in St. Vincent where we can grow
cotton and not bananas, that's where
they made the mistake, out of its habitat.
The coastlines in Layou and around the
hillsides can grow cotton but if you put
bananas in the hillsides where there is
too much wind it is going to kill them.
We have suffered by that mistake. There-
fore we want our cotton and bananas
and we want our arrowroot and we have
lands that can grow all three of them
and when this Government sits down
for all these years and have that obsta-
there when there is insurance there and
no effort is being made and today you
are asking about new industry and what
industry do we have? Only comeses,

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

only market square comese" and curs-
ing and right now, Mr. Speaker, in this
White Paper I have seen no economic
development, I have seen that this Gov-
ernment for the past three years the
whole economy of the country has gone
down instead of up and you can prove
it by your export in bananas, you can
prove it in your cotton you can prove
it in your sweet potatoes and whatever
you want. And when Governments pass
an ordinance and say you must sell To
them then the onus in on Government
to take i_: they did take it but they took
it n penny a pound which was below the
cost of production.

"In the lasI three years, my Govern-
ment has built eleven schools." If I can
remember very well, I think my friend
from the Grenadines will agree with me
that the schools building programme was
started by us, the last Government, it
is like night following day. Th- road
programme was started but as you go off,
you have to continue. For the informa-
tion of this House, the school at Lodge
Village, Mr. Rudolph Baynes was instru-
mental but when he was voted off, Mr.
Campbell built it and the ordinary peo-
ple thought that Campbell built the
school but those of us who know must
give praise where praise is due and so
it was with the feeder roads and so it
was with the schools building pro-
gramme. But getting back to the
schools building programme we are
building schools and it is true we need
more schools; but in the schools you
have to satisfy teachers; in the schools
you have children teaching children;
you want teachers in schools, you want
discipline in the schools, you want to
avoid taking little sixth standard chil-
dren to teach. What is the Government
doing about the Trade and Farm
School? Sixty-five thousand dollars was
voted for it. That Trade and Farm
School was for the unfortunate man's
child who, leaving school at the age of

Debate on the Address

15 and when I say school I mean prim-
ary school because ninety per cent of
our children don't attend secondary
school anyhow. We see that they clam-
oured for I.C.A., we see they clamoured
for a man to be able to use his hands
in technical education; that Trade and
Farm School was to take the boy from
these primary schools, say eleven plus
or fifteen plus and teach them to be
good carpenters, masons, electricians
and whatever else or to become farmers.
No, this Government didn't introduce
that, they took the money and built a
Science Laboratory at the Grammar
School, when I enquired the Minister
told me, the then Minister of Social Ser-
vices. I said alright, I think that will
be necessary and the next five years de-
velopment programme you are going to
put the money in the Estimates, which
was agreed. Where is all this nation-
hood going to lead us when we leave the
people in the road and the children in
the road untrained half in school and
half out of school? Where are we head-
ing for, Mr. Speaker? They are seeking
to remedy at one step and to me I think
we should get more schools to put the
children in, because it is better for them
to learn than to grow up illiterate, or
put them under a tree with a black
board under a tree until they can af-
ford to build schools, but they are a lot
outside and even after fifteen no em-
ployment. The estates are becoming
mechanised, quite right too, more pro-
duction. Lots of these young girls don't
want to go into the fields and use a hoe,
I won't blame them for a moment. What
preparation have we made for them in
the form of industry? What preparation
are we making for them to go in to fac-
tories? Are we leaving them in the road
to start having children? That is all.
And all that you are having down in the
country now is a lot of young girls hav-
ing big stomachs before them, bringing
more poor children without milk, with-
out anything to go by. And this Gov-
ernment sits down here and reads a

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

white paper and tells them about eco-
nomic development and welfare. But we
have seen the Chief Minister transfer
in the past, we have seen him put twelve
hundred dollars for furniture, sixteen
million dollars another time and we have
seen all these things. We have seen the
Fancy Deal; and I call it Fancy in the
true sense of the word-a Fancy Deal-
where thousands of dollars of tax-
payers' funds have gone to the northern
part of this country to buy lands. They
could have gone over the hill at Rich-
mond and settled them on the six thou-
sand odd acres that we are losing money
by; they could have gone over and set-,
tied the land settlement which is the
true meaning of land settlement, not a
misnomer Land settlement and still
running an estate at a loss without
even income tax-a corrupted land set-
tlement. They could have been settled
at some other place, by all means I say
settle people but hundreds and thous-
ands of dollars for a place that was
swapped to Mr. Theobalds for a few
acres here has gone down the drain;
Mr. Balcombe came and' brought Colon-
arie into the high lights of the estates.
Is that going to benefit our country or
benefit a, few? Mr. Speaker, when we
sit down here and see things like this
happen, we have seen the Stony Ground
deal-I'm speaking about the principles
of economics

MR. SPEAKER: The word "deal", I wish
the member to know that he must
clarify himself when he is using a word
of ambiguous nature.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: I see what you
mean, sir, and I am glad, sir, I think
you have been guiding this House im-
partially and it was my wish from the
time you came in to give you the high-"
est respect. And since it is ambiguous'
when I say "deal" I mean a deal that is
not fitting, not for the benefit of the
people, a wrong way of spending the
taxpayers' money. Thank you, sir.

Debate on the Address

Well you have seen the Stony Ground
that was earmarked for a hospital, we
have seen that this Government goes all
out to make Mr. X get that Stony
Ground piece of land-Mr. Speaker, -if
this land was for sale, and we needed
money, we are grant-aided, it was a
broad principle of selling lands as Gov-
ernment should do that you advertise
it and sell to the highest bidder because
we need money. No. another gentleman
had offered more money and was
turned down, disowned and all the other
principles of democracy ignored so much
that Dr. Lowe had to resign, men with
honour and dignity in this country had
to leave because of these deals. Mr.
Speaker, if this country and if the peo-
ple in this country, sir, were intelligent
politically . .
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, I am
going to say once and for all. You have
tried your best to discipline the member
but the member for South Leeward has
tried to over rule the case in that the
question of the public-There were im-
proper motives, slander and the rest be-
implied to all dealings arising in this
House and I say that word should not
be recorded in hansard.
MR. SPEAKER: I have asked the Hon-
ourable Member for South Leeward to
be specific in his language so that he
can be rightly understood.
HON. H. F. Young: Mr. Speaker, sir,
May I debate the Throne Speech? Be-
cause I intend to talk upon it paragraph
after paragraph.

HoN. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, I
am not having any imputing of impro-
per motives in this House.

MR. SPEAKER: I think the Honourable
: Member for South Leeward is-
HON. H. F. YOUNG: I am not vexed. It
is only my way of expressing myself but
I want to say any time you find me going
off. you are quite privileged to stop me, I
respect it.

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

Mr. Speaker, your Federal Government
as I know it is made up of a few boys
here, some from St. Kitts, Antigua,
Trinidad, Jamaica and, surprisingly, the
small boys in the smaller countries in
the present Government stole the pic-
ture because they had the portfolio. We
in this country, sir, knowing our coun-
try and the brains around us-men of
the calibre of Mr. Barnard and many
people outside, business men, any Gov-
ernment has the power, the authority to
co-opt men to form committees, the
Superintendent of Agriculture. Are we
going to ask the Federal Government to
come and tell us to put a few people on
land settlement estates, or to tell us that
land settlement estate is not paying and
they are taking the cocoa and the bread-
fruit and in truth and in fact if you
settle some of the people on some of the
land it would be better? Well then we
have a Government without any vision.
A team of experts came here and what
I'am speaking is what I know, Professor
Frampton and Professor Kinch, men
who sat around the table with a five-
year development programme, men from
the highest agricultural circles came to
St. Vincent and laid down a orogramme.
They could do part of it even if they
haven't got money for all of it. But they
haven't got funds for such development
and they scrapped Professor Frampton's
report for the Fancy deal

MR. SPEAKER: I have asked the Hon-
ourable Member to be specific because
there is always a latent innuendo in the
word "deal"; this is the third time. I
am asking you to be more specific in
your language and not to use a word
which may have a latent meaning to
members of the Government as well as
to others.

How, R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker do you
mean that If the word "deal" is used in
any context whatsoever it is out of order
in this House?

Debate on the Address

MR. SPEAKER: The way in which it is
being used is ambiguous and I am asking
the Honourable Member for South Lee-
ward not to use it if he if he says the
purchase of the Fancy Estate or the
transactions being made instead of us-
ing the word "deal".

HON. R. M. CATO: So, Mr. Speaker, you
are ruling that the word "deal" is out
of order in this House.

MR. SPEAKER: The way in which it is
used by the Member for South Leeward.

HON. R. M. CATO: Because I would
say to the other members across the
table honi soit qui mal y pense if every
time the word "deal" is used they take
offence at it.

HoN. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, sir,
I thought I had cleared it up with you
when I said the word "deal" in what
sense I meant it but in any case since
you don't like to hear it it's all right.
But the Chief Minister can wriggle as
much as he likes, he can wriggle for the
next five years. Mr. Speaker, please do
not make him interrupt me, he is in the
Legislative Council. Strange, I did not
go down further at all: "It is the hope
of my Government to assist the Federal
Government"-and strange enough I am
to put in effect a system made by Pro-
fessor Frampton, believe me sir, I didn't
even read down there. They have Pro-
fessor Frampton's development, they
have the cocoa scheme; they're taking
the cocoa scheme back to Antigua, a dry
place as it is, the word Antigua itself
means anti-water, no wells. Mr. Speak-
er we get back to the point. I'm speak-
ing about economic development as was
read from the Throne Speech but I am
trying to say that there is no economic
development as far as this Government
is involved, economic distress, that is
what I am trying to prove to this House
and if the Government wants to prove

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

what I'm saying they can go back and
read this white paper. "It will be the
prime object of my Ministers to encour-
age the stabilization (I am reading from
the Throne Speech and I shall debate
on it word for word) and expansion of
the agricultural resources and also ex-
pansion of the export trade of the terri-
tory." Expansion of our agricultural
resources! From the time of the former
Government we had the green and gold
what other agricultural developments
has this Government tried or put into
operation? What assistance has this
Government given to farmers, and I
must reiterate and repeat myself again
but the Marketing Scheme which has
destroyed the farmer. Therefore, Mr.
Speaker, ha ha! The Cotton Ginnery
used to give us edible oil. We hear a lot
about the oil being offered by certain
businessmen and the poor taxpayers
have to .pay for that, the unfortunate
man in the road whose cost of living
has gone up because soap has to be im-
ported, oil has to be imported, the feed
for our animals, the cows especially for
most of these people kept animals on
the pastures in the country. They have
lost their stock feed. This Government
is telling us about agricultural develop-
ment; Barbados has benefitted from our
cotton seed meal and, Mr. Speaker, the
by-products of cotton are being wasted,
it is cotton and seed and then oil and
the residue is made into stock feed and
last year we had to send our cotton to
Barbados to be ginned and paid five
thousand dollars of taxpayers' funds to
do it and the Government has in their
hands insurance and would not even
put up two gins, I'm not saying the en-
tire factory but they could have ordered
two gins and put them under a shed.
But the Chief Minister or the Minister
for Trade and Production, excuse me
sir, passed through Barbados and saw
me with the Press and he told the "Bar-
bados Advocate" "Oh, our ginnery will
be up in the next few months"; that was
1959 and this is 1961 and this statement

Debate on the Address

was made by the Minister of Trade and
Production. . finances being sup-
plied as a Grant-in-aid of Administra-
tion"-what an unfortunate thing,. Mr.
Speaker, and a lot of the people don't
know and you yourself, sir, you are very
new in a high office, but that is why his-
tory is so important, because to trace
back .sometimes and get to the future
you have to go back to history, a very
vital thing and pedigree and sometimes,
as we say, there are a lot of mulattoes
that are not scotsmen, deeds must tell.
So, Mr. Speaker, I am standing here and
attacking this white paper and all these
words and speeches written and the in-
tentions. It was our Government who
framed harbour scheme. I saw the blue-
print before I left; it was our Govern-
ment under the Minister from the Gren-
adines..who advocated the airport. What
new developments? Nothing, nothing
yet. And the telephone system which
was to be done by Cable and Wireless.
They were asking several people. Up to
now Grenada has theirs but what have
we here in St. Vincent? We have a mass
amount of cursing, we have a mass
amount of what the local people call
comeses, and, Mr. Speaker, "To this
end my Government is pressing for an
immediate sum. from the Federal Gov-
ernment to complete development of:
(a) the Territory's Feeder Road System
(fair enough; expansion of road to de-
velop virgin land, well this is a joke) (b)
a Trans-insular Road to develop more
virgin lands; and while lands that are
accessible are left lying idle, lands that
are accessible where trucks can go by
feeder roads are left in pasture by this
bad Government, no subsidy, no, fertili-
zer, but they are going to.spend thous-
ands of dollars to go into the forest to
look for more lands when lands are
around here in grass.

Mr. Speaker, I can remember this very
well and the truth is the truth, When
the last Government we had here by vir-
tue of our position as a grant-aided

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

country and under colonialism the Hon-
ourable Member, I am sorry he is not
here; for North Leeward, had a pet idea
of a cross country road from the Rich-
mond Estate Mr. Minors who was then
the manager made a start. I see my
friend from the Grenadines, I have a
lot of.respect for him because he knows
a. lot of these things. And so they were
pressing for this cross country road and
they had his sum of money. Apparently
it seems as if Mr. Vandies was interested
in getting some land to grow bananas
and so they had the big boys hot on the
trail for this cross country road and if
I can remember well they tracked it
down. and they set up a new track and
it was supposed to go ahead, sir; that
cross country road was supposed to drop
yoi out somewhere at Grand Sable on
the. ot.i&r,side but during that time, sir,
the road to Leeward wasn't pitched, the
road to Leeward was inaccessible. You
know how ignorant it would be to start
to fix your bedroom and your steps are
nQt ~.od, I told the Government, sir, we
are o.t against, the cross country road
but we find that these ministers, for pol-
itical reasons, didn't want the Leeward
to feel happy therefore you will have the
cross country road but you couldn't get
to it because, all going right down the
road abrund Troumaca wasn't cut and
all around buses could turn, no
roads were oiled. However, we got the
Government to fix the road first and the
dross country road' aftef' because the
main road leads to the cross country
roads. Now I see they have mentioned
it back here; it wasn't my constituency
but it is of no use to go up to Fancy and
pitch the'rdad when you can't pass the
Rabacca River. If you go to Fancy and
fix the Fancy road if the Rabacca River
comes down you can't get there and you
only waste money, you've got to bridge
it. It is better to start from below- aind
work upwards than to start from the
top and come down but with politics as
it is .. Mr.'Sp6aker, you see these ques-
tions that I am asking here today on the

Debate on the Address

broad development money was thrown
away during the last elections, lumber
was given by the Public Assistance by
the then Minister for Social Services to
sway the people, to catch votes; I can
prove it, Mr. Speaker, it is a fact and I
am not going to withdraw it.

MR. SPEAKER: You will withdraw it.
If anything does not express-1 would
like the Honourable Member for South
Leeward to know that anything of an
imputation must be by way of a sub-
stantive motion and cannot be dealt
with in a debate on the Throne Speech;
it must be by way of a substantive mo-
tion. That is the ruling on it.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: "My Government
is fully aware of the fact that our Terri-
tory is handicapped by our Financial
resources and that upon the granting of
Independence, Grants-in-aid to the Lee-
ward and Windward Islands: must event-
ually come to an end." Mr. Speaker,
that's a good point; we are living-on the
dole and we have a government that
doesn't realize that we are living on the
dole and are spending money instead of
putting that money into economy, into
crops, into different agricultural re-
sources and bringing up the revenue.
What are they doing? Buying Fancy
Estate, buying an estate that you can't
go to, another white elephant like the
land settlement estate. We are grant-
aided and as soon as Independence
comes about they will stop giving ,us
this amount of money. Going to
and starting a job with out the consent
and approval of the Public Works and
paying the labourers yourself. "My Gov-
ernment therefore aims at developing
the economy of our beautiful islands to
make them self-sufficient", every island
now, Mr. Speaker sir, there is a gentle-
man who is called Mr. Issa and he lives
in Jamaica, he owns a bank, he is a
businessman and he has gone to Anti-

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

gua, Grenada, St. Lucia and most of
these smaller island's with a chain of
hotels, millions of dollars, right now
is one of his best hotels. He has bought
out beach rights in Antigua. What is
this Government doing? Something is
wrong-a beautiful island like St. Vin-
cent with our Grenadines, with our
Young's Island, but not one of them was
encouraged to come here to foster tour-
ism and millions of dollars were spent
in building; and our boys would get
work and our girls would be trained to
work in the hotels. Why St. Lucia and
Grenada and not St. Vincent? Some-
thinr, is .wrong-because our Govern-
ment is silting idle and they have not
got the interest of the people at heart
and these are facts because they're going
on in our neighboring islands and it is
said by several visitors, sir, that this is
one of the most beautiful islands. It is
a lovely little place, it was said so by
Princess Margaret and Mr. Tree; said so
by several people but if we are not care-
ful, people will be afraid -to come here,
totalitarianism is going to reign and our
duty here is to preserve democracy and
to see our people get somewhere and the
hand of God is stronger than the hand
of the devil, and Mr. Speaker, I was due
to leave this House already and I would
not go until this Government breaks

MR. SPEAKER: I have told the Honour-
able Member for South Leeward that any
imputations of that nature, anything at
all, the only way it can possibly arise in
this House is by way of a substantive

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Thank you, sir,
but the vase was voted for in this House,
I am only speaking on principle; the
Hansards of this House are here to prove
it. What I am trying to prove here, Mr.
Speaker, is that I shall continue to fight
for the benefit of my country and I am

Debate on the Address

saying this white paper is a false docu-
ment coming from the throne against
Mr. Giles' own wish, that is why I have
made it quite clear in front that this is
not his paper but the Government's by
virtue of the constitutional change.

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, is
the member making a statement of fact
that the Throne Speech was against the
wishes of the Administrator?

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I
take it from now-well, you know I don't
know everything but when His Honour
refers to "My Government" it is a de-
parture and that alone is a departure
from known procedure-his Government
is now a symbol of the Queen and this
speech just the same as the Queen's.
The Queen reads the Prime Minister's
speech, so for your information I haven't
got to ask anybody that.

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, the
Honourable Member made a statement
that the throne speech that was read by
the Administrator he was against the
throne speech which he read to this

MR. SPEAKER: I don't think that the
Honourable Member for South Leeward
can actually and specifically say that it
was against the wishes of His Honour
the Administrator, it can't be against
the wishes.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: I was just trying
to let this Hoeue now that His Honour
read this speech written by his Govern-
ment and lots of times men are forced
to read things against their wishes; if
you want to insinuate it's against that's
your business. If I am given some-
thing to read to you I mightn't like it,
I mightn't like the contents of the book
but I am forced to read it, that is all I
am saying, I don't know if you are ready

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

to pull the string.. "My Government is
fully aware of the fact that our terri-
tory is handicapped ha ha These inter-
ruptions, Mr. Speaker, I am accustomed
to them, they take the wind out of my
sail a little and I have to start back
again. "...... soliciting a special loan
from Federal Government, after Inde-
pendence, for a Ten Year Development
Plan. Mr. Speaker, we have seen mem-
bers of the Grenada Government, we
have seen a government because there
are politicians who do not know every-
thing; Dr. Williams who is well ve-sed in
economics, sent out for another professor
fi' m Puerto Rico, sent for Dr. Arthur
L -is and set up schemes for his coun-
try. People might vote for us but we
are not, I am not going down
to the Hospital and tell Dr. Gun Munro
what to do, will ask him, not sti, k my
hand on his desk just because I am a
Minister in charge of the Hospital, that's
what I am trying to say. Let us get
serious. You get into power by the peo-
ple, you have lands, you have resources,
get some intelligent approach and set up
a scheme; if you want money they are
not going to give you unless you can tell
them what you are going to do with it.
Has this Government anything to say
what they are going to do with the
money? Experts can come, make a local
plan, call in your brain and lay down a
foundation so that you can have some-
thing to work on. What you have, sir,
a potpourri, doing this job here now,
doing that in another few moments.
"My Goverpment, will address itself
through the Federal Govrnment to se-
cure guaranteed markets for our crops.
It is aware of the great setback our sea
island cotton has suffered. My Govern-
ment will from time to time approach
the Federal Government to examine
whether this industry can be re-estab-
lished." That Cotton Ginnery, Sir, is
going to build itself. I can remember
very well, I can remember very well that

Debate on the Address

cotton meant St. Vincent, that this little
dot on God's earth was noted and still
is for the best sea island cotton in the
world; and when you travelled it was a
pleasure for you to listen to people
identify your country, your little island
from the crops cotton and arrowroot.
But if in the last three and a half years
my Government is still studying cotton,
something that existed before our time,
something that nursed and minded
many of us. Fire burnt the ginnery, I
don't know how it was burnt, I don't
know for what purpose it was burnt.
But I know that the Government is res-
ponsible to the people to put it back and
in very island you can see. And in every
line you can see, just think, in every
line of this throne speech you touch on
cotton and you ask the Federal Govern-
ment. But in the early days of the
cotton ginnery was there any Federal
Government? It must have been some
interesting people when the original gin
(I am sorry I didn't trace the history of
it) started to gin and started to bring
seeds in here, and set up. an industry
for our poor people. At Christmas time
it is a blessing for them to spend their
Christmas, especially South Leeward and
around Calliaqua. What you have today
and you say you are going to wait until
the 'Federal. Government come to tell
you about a ginnery?

The public service: It has been said
that .a Government is as strong as it's
civil service. How true that is! Yet, Mr.
Speaker, your Chief Minister attacks the
Civil Servants all the time. The esprit
de corps of the country is not good with
your civil servants and Ministers would
come *and Ministers would go but the
civil service remains forever and if you
are a good civil servant Lord help you,
let me'explain this. Do you notice, Sir,
that Ministers are so cheap now that
they are going right back into the coun-
try and taking away jobs from road

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Debate on the Address

drivers, giving orders to heads of depart-
ments to take the tools from this road
driver to give Mr. X because he didn't
vote for me. Ministers are condescend-
ing, Mr. Speaker to interfere with the
Civil Servants to such an extent that
they are fed up and they cannot carry
out their duties. If we on this side of
the table here, Sir, were to be ministers
we would respect that department head.
And if there was anything wrong, in
that department: we would call the head
aside and discuss with him or pass the
order from the head:down. Not to meet
a man in:the road and then because you
are big interfere with the livelihood of
the poor people, If that isn't so I am
not speaking the truth and that is the
level we have reached to. And it is said
here that if a man oppose you politically,
openly and he spoke against you, and he
even stood up and voted against. you,
the moment you get into power, him,
also, you have to represent. Because you
then represent the constituency and all
malice should. go from, you. and; it is so
that these ministers of Government
should realise, that we. have the right to'
come to them on: behalf of the people
whether they; come from Sandy Bay,
Layou, Barrouallie, or where they have
a right because the people. have ton pay
taxes, not this discrimination to 9y -
go away if you come from, Layou; I am.
not going to serve you. Well what sort
of Government are we going to, hVp6?
Democracy teaches us that. I can quote
it from this book. When you, are :fii
ished the majority counts ih siii f.
your hate; the man in Barrouallie a-id
Questelles or even in Layou wlo. didn't'
vote for me has a right to call me and
put his case to me. It isn't here for me
to sit down and say "you didn't vote fa
me". That is what is going on in this
country. And if we are not careful it is
going to split the country into two. And
the Ministers are doing it and doing it
openly. There is a poor country like

Barrouallie, a man working for twenty-
five years, sixty-four years of age, the
tools were just taken away from him
and given to a PPP, that's the. type of
Government we have and we are talk-
ing about the Civil Service? Can any
Civil Servant with any decency with any
morals, with any principles of law and
order stand in a Government like this?
MR SPEAKER: As I said, any allega-
tions of corruption, corrupt practices,
improper practices of that nature, I,
think they should be dealt with in a
substantive motion. I am asking the
Honourable Member for South Leeward
to adhere to that point of parliamentary

HON. H. F. YOUNG: There is an old
saying that steel sharpens steel and as
we sit around this table for the next five
years, I have promised that this is only
the beginning, this corruption. "Since
then this Government has in consulta-
tion with the Federal Government and
has done everything possible to meet
the requests of the Civil Service within
the framework of the Commission's Re-

Not too long ago we saw what hap-
pened to the teachers, the same thiiig
happened in Grena4a. The Grenada
Government called them in and they
made a compromise. Not for one
moment am I saying, Sir, that' all the
teachers were right, not for one moment
am I backing them, but their interest is
education and, the children. are the ones
who are going to suffer. B'cahuse the
school teachers can go back into that
school and if they decide not to teach
1lth ppor children, then the money will
be spent and they will leave there in
ignorance. And there is such a thing as
esprit de corps, those of us who manage
business will know that. It isn't fair for
a Government to completely ignore the

Administrator's Speech--

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

teachers association, how wrong they
might be. Look at the importance of
a teacher with little children in the
schools. They can stay out of the schools
for their lives and this Government
can teach them or they can go into
school and suffer. If that isn't so well
.....children like to play. Is this Gov-
ernment right in not trying to see or to
call the teachers and make a compro-
mise or is it right to say because I can
use the big stick when our poor child-
ren suffer, Mr. Speaker, it is bad enough
with the children out of school and it
is going to 'be worst with dissatisfied
teachers. And again, where are we
heading? What nation would this
nation be if we are not preparing the
little ones. It is the little ones who are
going to be the men and women of to-
morrow. And from my eyeglasses I can
see that there is no preparation yet
started by this Government for the little
ones. And it is definitely going to be
worse. No training, that is why today
the' policemen have so much trouble -
juvenile delinquencies. The parents have
to go into the fields to work 'and the
children are left unattended, when they
leave school there is no where for them
to 'go, their hands cannot be occupied
and -this Government telling me that
theirs is a social government, telling me
that they got into power by the masses
and today they have not put one thing
in the Estimates or into this country to
show that we have started to do some-
thing, parasites as a tree on top of an-
other 'one, sucking the lifeblood of the
same masses who put them there, Mr.
Speaker, local government.....
MR SPEAIER: Is the Honourable Mem-
ber for South Leeward speaking about
the Government and terming them
HoN. H. F. YOUNG: By virtue of rep-
resentation that they are giving to the

Debate on the Address

MR. SPEAKER: I would like the Hon-
ourable Member to know that that is
contrary to parliamentary practice.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Education, Health,
the Hospital, Sir, 'beds, the Doctors,....
If I:can go on, you can tell me, Sir. But
I have been listening to speeches all
around, Sir, and they seem very elastic,
Mr. Seukeran for example. If I am going
to continue, as I hope I respect your
office so much, Sir, .....

'HON. E. T. JOSHUA: If we are going to
have the same latitude as.....

o'HON. H. F. YOUNG: It is the same lati-
tude, you can't overrule the Speaker.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: I deprecate the
action that a-Member can have more
privilege than the balance-of members
in the House to come in here with that
type of language, I take exception to
that, Mr. Speaker.

'MR.'SPEAKER: -Such language, to term
the -Honourable Members of the Gov-
ernment as. parasites is in my opinion
tantamount to language that is im-

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Alright Mr. Speaker.
Hospital: PIhave listened Sir, of course
Sir, this is a very tame time as regards
what has happened. But I have prom-
ised to respect your ruling, and I'm going
to do so. This is very misleading and
to 'get a paper like this from men: who
have been in the Government for years
and to tell us in a white paper, Mr.
Speaker; about':these developments and
what they have done on paper and when
we" look 'back 'it's like a man trying to
-build a -house and he' brings this big
plan from the States and when he shows
where his verandah is, but he didn't put
the first stone down so he is living in a
house on 'paper, a lovely sketch, a: lovely

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

architecture, one from Washington, but
until you put it down and you put the
chair in it then you cannot live in it.
This is not worth the paper it is printed
on. I mean this of itself. At no time, Mr.
Speaker, can any Member of the Gov-
ernment get up and say that what is in
this paper we implemented. In fairness
to the Member for the Grenadines, I
think he has succeeded in getting one,
the Canouan Cold Storage. And I won-
der if it is still in operation. I hope it
is'nt going to be a white elephant. And
that, Sir, is a very good thing for the
fishermen down there. But we have in
the Estimates, loan to fishermen, schemes
for developing our fish industries, the
Public Relations Officer is supposed to go
around and educate the fishermen so
that we can eat less salted fish and get
a little local support to lower the cost of
living for our poor people. We have seen
since this Government came into opera-
tion beef rose from 45 cents to 75 cents
per lb. The cost of living has gone up.
We have seen that soap has gone up,
sugar that is being made right here, even
the boy's "rock' 'n' roll" has gone up.
And we have seen that no effort whilst
the cost of living is going up in one
direction you have unemployment in an-
other part. We are living in one of
those paradises, a government on paper,
a house planned and not built.
Water: Abundance of water, we tried
our best to get some water schemes.
There are certain areas which still
haven't got water although they have
tried to get them. I won't touch much
on that.

But I have heard from the doctors in
the hospital, I've gone and seen them
time and time again. It is overcrowded,
some of the implements are not in keep-
ing with this modern day. Some of the
people have to be on the ground, beds
can't hold them, rural dispensaries and
clinics, some of the doctors in the differ-

Debate on the Address

ent districts all they have to do is to
say "send them to the hospital". We
have two faithful doctors there by the
names of Gun Munro and Harry Munro.
Theyr'e overworked. God knows when
we lose them what will happen. And
the Stoney Ground piece of land that
was supposed to be and was earmarked
that would have taken the children's
ward next to the nurses, and the child-
ren's room at the hospital was going to
be turned, into a theatre. They built a
doctor's quarters for 28 or 38 thousand
dollars before and this doctor is sup-
posed to stay there with his family and
his wife with the noise and tooting of
horns. It is better they sell this to the
theatre manager and stop the shame off
their faces. Because this doctor has a
family and that house was built on the
compound Mr. Speaker in order to facili-
tate the doctor near to the hospital.
This is a riotous Government. That is
the government that is developing the
economy for the benefit of the masses of
this country, this is the government of
this white paper that Her Majesty's rep-
resentative read in the Throne Speech
and should be ashamed to read, know-
ing that he operated this. government in
the past. And I am saying this, that
Mr. Giles, in fairness to him, couldn't by
virture of right and a Christian mind
read this and like what is written there.
If you can, rule me out of this House
and I'll still live, but these words must
come from my mouth. And I am saying
this, that this Government with all its
falsification, Mr. Speaker, and without
practising economy and helping the un-
developed masses and the people, one
day the same sword that you live by is
the same sword that will kill you. "Hos-
anna, Hosanna, Crucify! and he who
lives by the sword" that's the exact
words "shall die by the sword."

Labour Relations: You have a full
fledged government in power, and then

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

you have a Labour Officer, now Mr.
Speaker, what you have? A union back-
ed by the same government. Unto
Caesar, unto Caesar, unto Caesar! Take
men from the field labour or back in
the country drawing the union funds
appealing to who giving them what
services as far as union is concerned.
Where is the annual report of revenue
and expenditure of the union? From
Caesar back to Caesar. That is why the
cotton ginnery was burnt and when it
was existing all sorts of confusion went
on. It is the policy of democracy that
usually belongs to a government that
has ceased to operate. A union should
be handled by somebody else. But when
it isn't "Mammy" in charge, it is "Pappy"
when it isn't "Pappy" it is "Mammy" and
then you get from Caesar unto Caesar.
Mr. Speaker, I don't know if you will tell
me this is irrelevant, I read a few days
ago that one Mr. Martin who hired men
from the Town Board puts them off. It
all belongs to the same organisation, put
them off against the Warden's permis-
sion, without his consent. I read it in
the newspaper, I don't know if it is true.

That's the type of behaviour we are

MR. SPEAKER: I think that is a matter
for local government.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Well it's a matter
for local government, but it is the same
government that is ruling the people
that I'm talking about.

These beautiful islands which form this
Territory were for a long time cut off
from the outside world. With the com-
pletion of an airfield at Amos Vale,
much traffic now results and visitors now
come regularly to our shores. Quite nice,
it is a blessing we have that airport and
they talk about free intercourse and
tourism. How are we going to have free

Debate on the Address

intercourse when they have gone against
freedom of movement. It is tantamount,
we have right to tell any Trinidadian or
any Grenadian coming here "Oh, you
can only stop for a few days", and send
out immigration authorities to them to
tell them it is time to get out. All this
free intercourse and freedom of move-
ment and tourism and West Indian
nation-what does it plean to our people
who can't move backwards and for-
ward. What would the United States of
America do if they couldn't go to Texas.
Tobago is a part of Trinidad and Tobag-
onians come and go. Tobago still exists.
It has to find its own level. It is the
policy of any Government to encourage
tourism, naturally! The beautiful Gren-
adines, Bequia, the white sand, beautiful
Bequia, Canouan, the other places, what
have we done, what are we doing? The
other places are sending ambassadors
abroad to interview men with a certain
amount of push and a certain amount
of appearance not men who look sloppy
and dumpy, men who would sell their
country men who can make contacts so
that people can come and the poor taxi-
man can get a living. What do we find
happening here? The Chief Minister as I
said, had to write this for Mr. Giles said
"freedom of movement, the time is fast
come" and yet he goes up to the United
Kingdom with the same taxpayers
money and voted against freedom of
movement. What inconsistency! And I
can prove it I can..... we have minutes.
"The largest unit in the Federation has
its own problems." Of course, all of us
have our own problems. Mr. Speaker, I
will have to move, in future I will have
to put a special motion where I can
impute all kinds of motives, for it is
hard for me to speak to people like these
who are running this country of ours.
It is very, very hard. But I believe in
British democracy and the British way
of life and I can say this, Mr. Speaker,
that once there is an Opposition here,

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

we will respect law and order, we will
respect the rights of other people, we
will have towards each other, hate to-
wards none, and we expect to stand for
principles and morals in public service,
not corruption. Mr. Speaker, I am not
quite finished. But I have another bul-
wark on my right, praise God, my friend
who can take over where I left off, and
I am saying on my left I have another
and if this Government doesn't want to
reply as they didn't but they will have
to reply. And I am going to end up in
saying-where is the development, where
is the agricultural policy, where is the
cotton ginnery, where is the Marketing
Board, and I will now say that with an
added constitution and with more power
given unto a Government like this, I
only hope the Almighty God would be
merciful and that we would get some
other people outside or inside to assist
you to develop this country. Thank you.

MR SPEAKER: Does any other Honour-
able Member desire to speak on this
particular motion?

HON. L. C. LATHAM: Mr. Speaker, I
would like to add my quota. It is three
against six. I don't see why there is
any fear. The Government just intends
to blow all the wind out of our sails here,
but we still have left behind here our
gallant political Leader with the 2,300
votes, still able to take care of any reply
by the Government. Mr. Speaker, on
the Throne Speech-my colleague on my
right said His Honour the Administrator
read the speech without his! consent and
this was evident because His Honour the
Administrator is a very clever speaker,
he has plenty of volume etc., and in
reading that speech you could hardly
hear him, Sir, at one time his volume
went down as low as ever. When he
read "My Government" he said it in
such a small voice. This wasn't the Ad-

Debate on the Address

ministrator's speech, this was the speech
of the Government, or the Government
wrote it for him, that he must obey the
wish of the Government.
Mr. Speaker, I wouldn't deal with the
broad objective as my friend did, be-
cause he dealt with the broad objective
in general. But economic development;
the country's economic development as
we see here: "The people of St. Vincent
lack a great many of the facilities of
other territories of the Federation." It's
only the other day, Mr. Speaker, that a
conference convened in Grenada under
the Chairmanship of Mrs. Phyllis Allfrey,
Minister of Education and Culture for
the Federal Government and our Social
Services and Education Minister was in-
vited to Grenada to that Conference.
The object and purpose of that confer-
ence was to find a suitable place in the
Windward Islands to erect a Teachers
Training College and the delegate of St.
Vincent was the Minister of Social Ser-
vices and Education as with the other
islands, who at that time was the Hon-
ourable Mrs. Ivy Joshua. And what do
we think happen? From St. Vincent
two people went-the Honourable Chief
Minister went along with the Minister
of Education as adviser. Never before
in the history of this island since Min-
isters have been set up in these island
have we seen a minister go as adviser
to another minister. If a minister wants
an adviser at a conference, according to
the portfolio which this conference falls
under, he takes a head of department.
You might take one of the Inspector
of Schools, the Education Officer theyr'e
all to the point. That conference was
boycotted, Mr. Speaker, and both the
Minister for Social Services and Educa-
tion and the Chief Minister chartered a
plane and came back to St. Vincent and
at the same time here, the people lacked
a great number of the educational and
training facilities. How does that look?
When a conference was convened for the

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

progress of St. Vincent, of the educa-
tional system of St. Vincent, and the
other islands was debarred by the same
Government. I can't see how he is say-
ing here- lack of educational facilities.
He says over the past three and a half
years my Government has built eleven
schools. Mr. Speaker, since 1956 there
was a school building programme. I can,
remember in the Estimates we had
seventy-five thousand pounds to build
primary schools throughout the length
and breadth of St. Vincent. So I can't
see why they are boasting that they
built eleven schools. Eleven schools and
thousands of children on the street have
nowhere to go. It is true that primary
school education is not compulsory, but
still this Government could do better in-
stead of throwing the money in drains.
Because I have seen in this explanatory
clause there. If you go down to Can-
ouan you will see it there. The seventy-
five thousand dollars which has been
spent in Canouan nearly a year ago
erecting a fish collecting station and it
has been there a white elephant nearly
a year ago. It was completed in August
last year and now it's July, evidently it
is about one year ago and they have it
as a white elephant. That money, Mr.
Speaker, that seventy-five thousand dol-
lars could have been used to build more
schools even in the Grenadines and so
much so, Mr. Speaker, the one time
Leader of the Opposition, the Honour-
able Member for the Grenadines who
was trained here, that's the reason why
he crossed the table it's owing to that
Cold Storage that same white elephant
in the Grenadines.

"It is the prime object of my Ministers
to encourage and expansion of agricul-
tural resources and also the expansion
of the export trade of the territory".
Mr. Speaker, we see in St. Vincent the
Banana Industry coming into being, we
have seen the Arrowroot industry dwind-

Debate on the Address

ling out, such a nice industry is dwind-
ling out, we have seen the Cotton in-
dustry which my friend on the right
spoke of, almost gone or gone. What
are we heading for, Mr. Speaker, this
Government spoke about expansion of
export trade. What export duty? Domi-
nica just last week shipped 26 tons of
fruit, pine-apple, etc. and sent it to Bar-
buda, 26 tons of fruit shipped from
Dominica not including the banana in-
dustry, fruit. St. Vincent-we have a lot
of fruits here, we have mangoes and
pineapples, etc., we have lots of fruit
just as Dominica and even more, but
if you have a Government who sits idle
and they do not understand anything
about agriculture, absolutely nothing.
The only Minister vwho understands a
little but he has his hands tied he can't
do anything is the Honourable Minister
for Trade and Production and he can't
make a move at all, and we have as
much fruit and more fruit, Mr. Speaker,
than Dominica. Because at this time of
the year, Mr. Speaker, we have mangoes,
thousands of mangoes here, spoiling on
the trees. We should have a canning
factory here, Mr. Speaker, to can those
mangoes, you could be able to can bread-
fruit, even those sweet potatoes f6r
which the Minister gave account here.
$25,290.96 being spent on sweet pota-
toes, Mr. Speaker, if we had a canning
factory, we could can some of those
potatoes and export them to the civil-
ised world, instead of that they used
$35,290.00 buying sweet potatoes, send it
to the mill, rotten starch which they had
to dump in the Walliabou area and a
whole waste of this money of thirty-five
thousand dollars. We have-a fruit here
called breadnut. I don't believe you
know it, there is only one Minister here
who knows it, the Minister of Trade and
Production breadnut. pears, most of
those fruit, Mr. Speaker, spoil all over
the country and this government has
here a white elephant that they call a

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

marketing board. Mr. Speaker, what
does the Marketing Board do? Publish
in the newspaper the kind of tomatoes..
HON. E. T.~TOSHUA: I rise on a point
of explanation on the statement made
by the last speaker. The Government
never got money for making starch.
What was done-the potatoes were over
produced in the country and since they
were overproduced, the workers were
subsidized or compensated for over pro-
duced potatoes. We didn't have money
given to them for any starch whatever.

HON. L. C. LATHAM: Mr. Speaker, how
the Chief Minister could say we over-
produced? Is there anything in the civ-
ilised world that an island or a country
could overproduce food? Potatoes is
essential food, human consumption. You
can't overproduce food. But what hap-
pened Mr. Speaker, to this Government
-they didn't get a market for their pro-
duce. Antigua would buy our sweet
potatoes, Mr. Speaker, British Guiana
would buy our sweet potatoes, St. Kitts
would buy our sweet potatoes, Dominica
would buy our sweet potatoes, Grenada
would buy our sweet potatoes, last and
not least Carriacou would buy our sweet
potatoes. The Government didn't look
for any market and so we have over-
produced. Those words sound ridiculous.

"My Government has been making
every effort to rid itself from treasury
control." There Mr. Speaker and they
say that this island has overproduced.
How could you get rid of treasury con-
tr6l when Government owns more than
half of the land in St. Vincent and the
Chief Minister released to the press
some time ago, he said "this Govern-
ment owns two thousand acres of the
best arable land in St. Vincent and get
nothing from it." And how is it that
this Government is making every effort
to rid itself from treasury control? You
must turn to Agriculture here, Mr.

Debate on the Address

Speaker. If you take a look at the
Buccament Valley, at the Cumberland
Valley and the Windward Coast, you
will see thousands of acres of land lying
idle, nothing being planted there because
that same Government that is trying to
rid itself of treasury is not trying to
subsidise the peasant. Throughout the
civilised world, throughout the Baltic
and other states, Government subsidies
the peasantry there. You have what is
called a co-operative system and Gov-
ernment goes in and helps the peas-
antry. And it is the duty of all Gov-
ernments to help the peasants, and to
see that they produce certain crops all
year round. You could produce certain
crops here in St. Vincent all year round,
Mr. Speaker, if you have a Government
who will subsidise the peasantry and
encourage them to produce, but no, I
went down to the market square some
Wednesday nights ago,-a big bawling
out, "comrade don't plant banana, plant
arrowroot" No n s e n s e, Mr. Speaker,
nonsense. St. Vincent, all the young
people, boys and girls are leaving to go
to the United Kingdom. This year, 1961,
from January to May, twenty-nine
thousand went from the West Indies to
the United Kingdom, running from the
West Indies, the reason--lack of work.
And until this Government decides to
raise the standard of the peasants by
subsidising the fertilizer and get all
those lands that Government owns in
the Land Settlement Estate under pro-
duction, we will never get out of this
grant-in-aid, treasury control, more so
as the 31st May next year is the date
fixed for independence, I don't know
who the Chief Minister and his col-
leagues on the other side will beg for
grant-in-aid because at the time of in-
dependence Mr. Speaker, I know that
grant-in-aid will cease and if even the
Federal Government happens to give
these grant-aided islands some money,
we wouldn't get the full one million

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

three hundred and twenty-seven thous-
and dollars we were getting all the time
because the Ministers concerned in it
came to St. Vincent and saw all the
lands lying idle. These lands should be
And Mr. Speaker, I heard tthe Govern-
ment Chief Minister making a bold
statement about Deep Water Harbour. If
all the lands in St. Vincent, the best
arable land, is owned by the Govern-
ment, if the Government. of St. Vincent
have seen the people produce the speci-
fied crop, what are we going to export
with this deep water harbour that the
Go-ernment is giving a grant to build?
Twenty-nine thousand stems of ban-
anas, Mr. Speaker, that's what the ship-
ment ha. reached to now, from seventy-
five thousand stems to twenty-nine
thousand stems, that's what the Colony
has reached to, Mr. Speaker. What are
we going to ship in this deep water pier?
What are we going to export? Maybe
the same from the beach. I cannot see
why they are going to get a grant for
the deep water pier and the ships will
just come in to bring goods that are
imported and we will have nothing to
export. The arrowroot starch-the only
time we have a shipment of arrowroot
starch is when a boat comes in here
bringing a few tourists, and whenever
the "Ocean Monarch" comes in here, it
is capable of taking out our whole drop.
At the same time, I'm very glad that
the deep water harbour is coming into
being because it will be an asset to St.
Vincent as a whole and we know too
well that this Government will not re-
main here all the time and as soon as
this deep water harbour is built and a
change has been made in the Govern-
ment I am sure that the other Govern-
ment which comes into power will do
all they can to encourage agriculture in
St. Vincent.
Mr. Speaker that brings me to our land

Debate on the Address

settlement. This white paper on the
speech from the throne is the Govern-
ment's paper. Our land settlement policy
needs total revision, the lands held by
this government and lying idle must be
brought under immediate use. Now, Mr.
Speaker, for three and a half years,
now in the fourth year, this Government,
was in power and now late in 1961 they
say that the land settlement policy
needs total revision. Mr. Speaker, they
take long years to see that the policy
needs revision. Because all the land
lying at the leeward end, Mr. Speaker
I have some figures here. This Gov-
ernment has in Wallilabou, the Walli-
labou Group which comprises sixteen
hundred and seventy seven acres. And
the Petit Bordel Group, Mr. Speaker is
eleven hundred and seventy five acres
and the Richmond Hill Group, Mr.
Speaker is three thousand, four hundred
and seventeen acres lying down there
idle. I don't believe the Government
collects taxes, land taxes, income tax
and such things because they can't pay
for themselves. These lands lying idle
can't work their way out. What I do
know is that there is a very powerful
union payroll reduction, that's what
they get from it. It is time for this
Government to stop going about begging
and put all the land now occupied by
the land settlement estate on the Lee-
ward coast in use. "In the field of agri-
culture my Government intends to carry
out such surveys and will endeavour to
help planters and farmers, especially the
peasant class to endeavour to produce
more bearing in mind that our economy
to a great extent relies on agriculture."
You will wait until now to help the peas-
ants you are going to help it is only last
year you raised the taxes, on the peas-
ants 50c. per acre up to ten acres $1.00
per acre over ten acres and up. House,
50%, 100%, 200% 300% on the same
peasants? And you still say here you
are willing to help the same peasants

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

and farmers-by taxing them.
"My Government will address itself..."
It is when His Honour the Administrator
was getting to this paragraph here I
noticed that his volume went low,-"My
Government will address itself through
the Federal Government to secure guar-
anteed markets for our crops." The
Chief Minister has travelled all around
and he could make contacts here. We
don't have to wait on the Federal Gov-
ernment to get a market for our crops,
Mr. Speaker, because we have a full
fledged government in power and we
have a marketing board, officers and
the Minister for Trade and Production.
He will be able to go around the islands
and find markets. As I told you, Mr.
Speaker, sometimes I get a letter from
Antigua and they are interested in get-
ting our sweet potatoes and peanuts.
And if the Minister for Trade and Pro-
duction will travel around these islands,
the Windward and Leeward group, he
will be able to contact good markets and
encourage the peasants to produce more
in order to raise the standard of living
and then the Government will derive
more revenue from that export trade,
Mr. Speaker. And the buying power will
increase. Right now in Kingstown mer-
chants have overdrafts, can't take out
their goods from the Customs because
the buying power has gone down so low.
As I told you before, Mr. Speaker, it is
only twenty-nine thousand stems of
bananas we can ship in the whole of St.
Vincent and this has brought about a
very bad depression on this island's
Mr. Speaker, Education:--"Within the
limited scope of my Government's finan-
cial needs, it is gratifying to refer to the
progress made in the matter of educa-
tion, more particularly in the field of
primary education where provision has
been made for the 500 place secondary
school for boys and where more primary
schools are to be built." It is gratify-

Debate on the Address

ing to refer to the progress made in the
matter of primary education and in the
other part here, Mr. Speaker, he says
that primary education is in a "sorry
plight". That concludes the question
asked this morning by the Leader of the
Opposition, children not being properly
trained by their teachers. But "it is
gratifying to refer to the progress made
in primary education"-the statements
are so conflicting. The "sorry plight",
children not being trained by the teach-
ers whose fault? Government's. That
lies squarely on the shoulders of the
Government. After all it didn't take
three years to train a teacher, it took
about seven or eight years. And if this
Government has ignored the requests of
the teacher, as my colleague here said
before, the teachers will go into school
all year and the children will never
learn. And my friend the Honourable
Member for the Grenadines when he
was the Leader of the Opposition, oh he
used to raise Cain here. And the teach-
ers are being transferred from one end
of the island to the other. He used to
put -in a lot of motions and ask questions
about the teachers. He was an advocate
for the teachers. I do believe although
he is across the table he still bh. th*at
same spirit. Yes, Mr. Speaker, primary
education is in a sorry plight. And the
Chief Minister answers these questions
this morning with a long preamble. It
doesn't mean all of that, it means that
the teachers throughout St. Vincent are
dissatisfied 99% are dissatisfied with
the conditions of work and salary -etc.
and it is for our Gofernment to find
ways and means of satisfying these
teachers, other than that what will we
have? Children leaving school ignorant,
uneducated. And next year May, we are
supposed to get independence and we
wouldn't like to see St. Vincent, out of
the ten islands which comprise the Fed-
eration, having the most ignorant people
in the Federation. No. We want to

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

keep abreast of Grenada and the other
islands. They spend practically half
their revenue on education so as to keep
in line with Jamaica and Barbados and
Trinidad. It is only St. Vincent where
people don't go into it, the parents and
guardians don't know how serious it is
that the schools have been closed up for
three weeks after a four week holiday.
They do not know what those children
missed during those three weeks. They
will never get it back. And now those
children have gone back to school the
teachers are still dissatisfied. Before the
Chief Minister left here for the London
Conference I believed he would do all
that lay in his power to give those teach-
ers words of encouragement and let
them go back to school before he left
here, because he was a teacher himself
and he now decides to let the schools
stay closed and let the children roam
the streets, so much so, Mr. Speaker,
there was an incident at Biabou that
occurred at Biabou involving a school
girl through the children having to roam
the streets.

Water: The only island which has
more water than St. Vincent is Domi-
nica. And still people in the country
had to walk 31/2 miles, practically 4 miles
to get a drink of water. Since this Gov-
ernment got into power, I thought it
would do something, do its utmost to
improve the water supply because we
have water all around here. Look at the
scheme from the Leeward one small
four inch pipe bringing the water from
away up in the mountain to Kingstown.
The people who return home from
Curacao and Aruba and build their
modern houses with modern conven-
iences, need water so that very little
water flows in to Kingstown from the
Leeward end. And the Leeward end has
more water than Majorca. And if you
take the Majorca supply, Mr. Speaker it
came from the Marriaqua Valley, not

Debate on the Address

very far from where I live, but since
the Majorca system came into being, we
don't have any water at all. It is a
little spring in the Mesopotamia Valley
that gives our people a little water. If
you see the people of Riley when the
Majorca line passed through Riley, the
people had no water to drink. The dir-
est need in St. Vincent is water. I have
seen the people leaving Spring Estate
going right through Yambou, practically
four miles with buckets on their heads
looking for water, and we pay taxes, our
land tax is raised and still you can't
have a drink of water although you
have a full fledged government in power
who should be able to see about the
needs of the people. But we see that
they are putting everything on paper.
I wouldn't like to touch on labour re-
lations because I don't know much about
the labour code, Mr. Speaker. The party
in power, Mr. Speaker, owns a union and
aB employees they try to make it com-
pulsory, especially at Mount Bentinck
that they join it. If you don't join the
union, you don't have a job. And I see
here he says "It shall be the immediate
concern of this Government to ensure
that all existing labour laws are observed
also the amendment of all the anti-
quated labour laws, to keep the Terri-
tory in line with modern labour trends
in the Federation." And all over the
years, 31/2 to 4 years, you are in power
and you are still going along with the
labourers and no union with antiquated
labour laws. Sooner or later, these same
people will catch up with them either
with the party or the Government. Mr.
Speaker, I don't want to take up much
more time with this question. But I
would like to say that this Government
we hope, will try its utmost best with
the help of the Federal Government to
see that this island of ours moves on as
the other islands of the Federation are
moving on to progress. St. Vincent is
the only island behind hand and I think

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

the Chief Minister who has travelled
widely throughout the other territories
etc. he should have ideas, (he has the
ideas but he just doesn't want to imple-
ment them) to see that the peasantry
of St. Vincent will be helped in such a
way with fertilizer etc. that they may
be able to produce more from the land
and by producing more be able to build
a better revenue so that St. Vincent as
a whole will come from the scheme of
grant-in-aid. Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: Any other Honourable
Member desire to speak on this motion
before the House?

HoN. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, I
have noticed that this jumble and pre-
amble and the accustomed tirade of
abuse and invectives that we are accus-
tomed to in this Honourable House is to
be ignored and if no Honourable Mem-
ber desires to speak any further, I have
the points there. I see some call for
clarification for the records of the Han-

Now, the Member for South Leeward
in his tirades referred to a transinsular
road and in that he criticised quite un-
duly and unfairly the development pro-
gramme of the government. Before we
got here in 1956 there was no leeward
highway road put in order. The ban-
ana areas and the areas in the country
where people actually lost their heads.
In the central windward area there was
no ratification of the roads system, noth-
ing at all. But yet the former govern-
ment had in view a transinsular road
to pass over La Soufriere which God
knows when it would be developed in
time. We therefore got money and
thereupon we side-stepped that trans-
insular road which would take so long
to be built and we came nearer home
to provide roads which were of urgent
need, and there it is, their road system

Debate on the Address

has increased and lessened the burden
of the people considerably to bring out
their crops through the mountainous
passes. Formerly crops and other ve-
hicles where they could not reach before
only a few selfish people who are blind
and cannot see what the improvement
of these roads has done the trade to in-
crease business and the economy of the
country. The Secretary of State for the
Colonies reading these Hansards and
sometimes it is good to put an injection
in reply because it is quite clear that
any stranger in this Legislative Council
-there is a set of them who visit here
and hearing the arguments of certain
members of this House would believe
that these things are true. If unaccus-
tomed they would go away from this
House and give an impression that this
Government, apart from doing anything
at all, is cruel, and ruthless and dicta-
torial because certain members speak
here without the control of the Speaker,
or without regard for the language used.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: On a point of
order, for the sake of the records, I take
a dim view of that. Mr. Speaker was
very impartial. In my opinion it is quite
out of order, quite out of order. You
must have a certain amount of respect
for our Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: The Honourable Member
will remember that on several occasions
I did ask you to be careful with your

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Yes, and I rise to
say that. And I was very respectful to
the Chair.

HoN. E. T. JOSHUA: That statement of
mine made here was not unfair because
although he said that the language was
not parliamentary several times I got
up here on the Government side and it
would appear that the ruling was sus-

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

tained. But the Member for South Lee-
ward went on repeating himself irres-
pective of the Speaker and then I say
that that point made by the Member
for South Leeward is very unfair be-
cause it is common knowledge that five
hundred and forty thousand pounds of
Limited Colonial Development and Wel-
fare Funds was allocated for roads, im-
proving of education and agriculture,
the greater portion of that amount was
spent in the improving of the road sys-
tem of this country. A car, a bus, a
truck can go up to the New Groundo Gap
and come out at any portion higher up
the mountain. That's an accomplish-
ment so that various parts of banana
areas, one of thq crops that we grow for
the economy of the country can have
effect and you can get it out. Now it is
a laudable thing to note that a truck
or car can be driven straight into the
Fancy. Now I heard much spoken in
this country about production and Fancy
and God knows what, but we have re-
garded all of the people in the country
as human beings and we have made
provision for every section of the com-
munity no matter where they are from
hence we have no politics to play politics
with the question of Fancy because we
have there and we have the electorate
of the people and we are making every
effort that a paternal government would
be making for the development of the
people of Fancy because right down be-
low there is an estate sometimes it can-
not provide work sufficiently to support
the inhabitants of that area and it is
common knowledge, the Second Nomin-
ated Member would know that people
come from Owia and Fancy for work.
This is not fair to the people for them
to walk 7 miles for work and we have a
right as Government to give all the
people a fair chance to live as human
beings and we have done that irrespec-
tive of who is against it. It is for the
benefit of the people that this develop-

Debate on the Address

ment work is done and not the people
who want to throw hot water on Gov-
ernment. That is one point, Mr. Speaker.
The question of the development of
this country. A base at Arnos Vale was
referred to. The question is we are al-
ways hearing is-who put the airfield
there and whose Government did this
and did that. The mere fact that this
country was cut off actually from the
main aeroplane route. It is all well and
good when members get up in this House
and say St. Vincent is more backward
than other islands. Ask them good. It
is only yesterday that St. Vincent had
an airport once more. One Government
in 1947 laid down an Airport at Diamond
and hundred and thousands of dollars
were put on it, the house that was the
terminal building is still there for and
the place became a cane field once more.
Who was responsible for that at that
time. From 1947 to now you had the
Grummond Goose with a population of
eighty thousand. Now you are going to
tell me a Grummond Goose carrying
five passengers was the only thing you

Mr. Speaker these men were speaking,
they were not provoked, and it is out of
order, I am not going to be harassed by
these men at all.

And Mr. Speaker, people who knew of
the beauty and verdant nature of this
territory, the Grenadines included, we are
always along here exemplifying Gray's
Elegy until now-"Full many a flower is
born to blush unseen and waste its
sweetness on the desert air". That was
St. Vincent up to 1956 and it,was around
the middle of 1957 that this island began
to progress it was connected up with the
air lines of the world and people began
to know it. It is simply unfair that peo-
ple should come into this Honourable
House and play up to the gallery. It is
quite clear that a little Grummond

Thursday, 20th July, 1961 -

Administrator's Speech-

Goose we used to have here (for three
months people got down and couldn't get
back suffered in the cause of the back-
wardness) while the Grenada Pearl's
Airport was established. Now that we
have been able to set that right people
began to know St. Vincent. Hear the
type of base ridicule that takes place in
this House.

The Leeward roads. It was good
judgement and common sense that the
transinsular road sought by the former
government should go in abeyance until
tihe .iain highway was completed. It
was necessary for us to do the Lee-
ward roads as we needed roads where
immediate crops can be developed as for
example the Cumberland Valley and a
considerable amount of land for the in-
crease of agriculture in the country and
so land was developed around the valley
but we still, consider that the main cir-
cumvention to circumvent the island we
should still attempt a road traced across
La Soufriere or there about so that we
in the interim will be able to get some
land. The experts who surveyed the
area were of the opinion that there was
about two thousand acres of. land on
one side and La Soufriere would be cut
by the transinsular road; the other side
they presumed is lava and might not be
as valuable as the other side. That is
why we are interested in a transinsular
road that way. Unlike Grenada, we
could only trek across the Soufriere
mountain but in Grenada as you know,
you can go right around the island at
any point and you have highways that
you can go around the island, but un-
fortunately, for us the main mountain
accesses the centre and we have
a background of thickly wooded moun-
tains running north and south and of
course we are satisfied in our ten year
development plan, even in the interim
one-year plan you can depend on all
this hue and cry and in spite of that we

Debate on the Address

are quite complacent, we are going to
develop this island to the satisfaction of
independence in the commonwealth of
nations. Now it is our task and the
task of the people of the country to start
forming better communication because it
is to their benefit to have the deep water
harbour so that ships can come direct
without a vast expanse of water fright-
ening away the tourist. When we were
kept back through financial difficulties
in the past and that we know that if we
have no deep water harbour most of the
liners would go to Grenada because they
have a deep water harbour and liners
dock right to the pier. It is that vast
expanse of water that frightens away
tourists and we hope in due course that
after a year or so when we have a full
fledged deep water harbour completed
that we will be able to bring most of the
liners here that go to Grenada.

Speaking of public assistance, Mr.
Speaker. If we examine the figures of
'the question given this morning very
closely-$9,481.80 and $10,125.41, we will
see that the difference of a few hundred
dollars shows the increase of popula-
tion, the increase of the items for public
assistance of the Government. It is
quite obvious. And the vote was in-
creased by six thousand dollars. This is
only a period, Mr. Speaker, the figures
that we have here are the lfigures..only
for a term, a quarter of the year and so
it shows that this Government has gone
out to give more people public assistance
than they supplied in the past .and I
can't understand what is wrong with
some people. If you expend money in
a country what is wrong with that? And
so in January to April, 1960, the figures
compare favourably and even when we
had a larger amount before the Federal
Government they say this is too much
for social services, a Federal Govern-
ment that say it is too high for social
services, they can't afford so much. Well

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

then, we still had the increase in differ-
ence by $933.611/4 that is progress. An-
other point, Mr. Speaker, all over the
place is a new pattern, there is an
urgency for land and as you see some-
body's house is blown down and thrown
away the Public Assistance has to take
it up, it is not like before. We go and
take it up and then it means that
money has to be in the Public Assistance

Now we spoke of Hotels and Hotel
Development. There is a Hotels Aid
Ordinance in the Colony, there is Pio-
neer Ordinance. It is not a cloistered
monastery, anybody can avail themselves
of the Hotel Aid. It is in this House
they began to talk of a totalitarian state,
communism and all types of things.
They just open their mouths and talk
things that would hurt and abuse. If
Government takes steps to control all of
the arrowroot factories, to control Mount
Bentinck, to control hotels, well then
this Government would be a set up of
a totalitarian state, but this government
knows that socialism cannot work, that
it failed in Britain. When the Labour
Government held power in Britain in
1945 it failed miserably, because of try-
ing to put socialism in a place where
capitalism is rampant. Socialism cannot
work in a capitalist country. This gov-
ernment will not interfere with the work
of private enterprise, we have that in-
tention of British socialism here, we are
not going to frighten away investors.
We are saying that they should go in
and invest. Therefore I am surprised
and alarmed to hear every time unpar-
liamentary language is used, and abuse
is hurled. That language Mr. Speaker,
annoys and hurts. And when people tell
us in this Honourable House that they
are relevant, we cannot appreciate that
at all.

We go to St. Lucia now, this may

Debate on the Address

not be known to this Honourable House,
we heard the Member for South Wind-
ward to say we cannot get out of grant-
in-aid. The St. Vincent Government is
the only unit of the seven that are
grant-aided or treasury controlled who
make any honest effort since 1953 to get
out of grants-in-aid. The four hundred
thousand dollars that paid the Gross-
mith Civil Service Report is an indus-
trious effort to get out of treasury con-
trol. The question therefore of counter
proposals to the proposals set up in the
Grossmith Report should be fully ex-
plained to this House. There are two
new members, possibly three and one
who knows, all of them know, parlia-
mentary procedure. They may not have.
known certain facts appertaining to this
point on teachers. Four hundred thous-
and dollars and plus a little more was
accumulated as savings by this Govern-
ment. And from that we were able to
pay with all speed the Grossmith, we
were told just prior to the elections
"What you want to pay us money so
quick for because it is elections?" We
as Vincentian people do not seem to be
well balanced people and have the cor-
rect sense in our own interest. We run
away with the figments of our imagina-
tions and allow other people to take up
for us at the wrong time. During the
period of election we were told: "What
you want to pay us money so quick for".
So we tried to pay them that amount
from the Treasury got there by the sav-
ings of the St. Vincent Government.
When a proposal was put up called a
Corporate Proposal making it twice as
much, we couldn't countenance, that Mr.
Speaker, because we only had the Gross-
mith Report before us that amount had
to be paid from the Federal Govern-
ment. Therefore whatever is said about
teachers'or civil servants it is quite clear
and obvious that they are unreasonable
people, because they know very well that
we who had gone out to get that com-

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

mission set up, we had gone out to re-
grade them even before an attempt was
made to set up a commission but the
same Government is lambasted and
ridiculed by the same people the leaders
and politicians for going so far as to
increase their salaries before Grossmith
came on the scene. It happened, that
St. Lucia put forward a demand for one
million five hundred thousand dollars to
pay civil servants, twice as much directly
twice as much. St. Vincent did a sim-
ilar thing and the little elections were
around the corner in all the islands in
the Windwards so these leaders began to
play politics fooling off the people. Ask
them where the delegates have gone and
if they got one cent over the Grossmith
Report and now they are quite com-
placent to accept whatever was offered
them under the Grossmith Report be-
cause they knew in their heart of hearts
that there wasn't a red cent more than
the Governments in the territory would
have done and the Federal Government
refused, they couldn't have any more,
shut up their mouths. And that is what
the Honourable Member for South Lee-
ward referred to this morning. Minis-
ters are interfering with Civil Servants.
That is one of the false and wicked
statements. And I am going to explain
to this Honourable House today what
is happening in the country and I am
satisfied that if some high official stam-
pede before this day well the Secretary
of State will have to send and enquire
right away. The question is, Mr. Speaker,
certain disgruntled civil servants who
thought they were going to set up their
own government and penalise those
people in the country, a sort of Congo
business here, they failed, simply failed
and since they failed they are not satis-
fied. The business of the people must
go on. The question that arose here
about Ministers doing work that is be-
cause there is no co-operation between
the civil servants and the officials con-

Debate on the Address

cerned with the elected Ministers of the
Government. To come into this House
hpocritically and talk about colonial-
ism .......

HON. R. M. CATO: The member must
use parliamentary language. Sit down,
sit down, I rise on 4 point of order. Mr.
Speaker, I insist on the member using
proper parliamentary procedure......

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Out of place, out
of place! No ruling at all.

MR. SPEAKER: It is better not to utilise
the word "hypocritical".

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker I rose
on point of order. If I have to refer
you to the particular Standing Rules and
Orders on this point: when a member
rises on a point of order the member
speaking is not to remain on his feet
and continue to be abusive and I insist
on it, the Chair must give a ruling.....

MR. SPEAKER: I would like the Chief
Minister to realise that on any point of
order you have to wait for a ruling.

HON. R. M. CATO: Not only he must
not be on his feet but he must withdraw
that very unsavoury remark, that imper-
tinent remark.

MR. SPEAKER: With respect to the word
"hypocritical" you have got to use par-
liamentary language.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Wicked sayings
from that side of the House........ Mr.
Speaker, St. Lucian development has
nothing to do with St. Vincent develop-
ment. We have done a good job here, we
have spoken about communications both
internal and external. External and
Internal communications were lacking
badly in this country, we now have had
the fortune to rectify them. The tele-

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

phone system must have the necessary
amount of money to have a good system.
The Government Cotton Ginnery those
who know the facts would realise that a
whole city could be blown up in five
minutes but it may take twenty five
years to restore it. We are having the
machinery ordered and in due course it
will be here to set up the factory at
Arnos Vale. The question, therefore, of
development. Those who can see and
feel and perceive can see exactly that
we are moving forward slowly but surely.
The question is sometime ago we at-
tempted after having explored the possi-
bility of every island to find out what
type of taxes they pay on land, the Col-
onial Office was careful to see that we
made sure that we found out, and we
found out in fact, that in spite of the
fact that we do a little better, we make
demands for all sorts of things, when
we hear the bold, fat, proud speeches
about counterparts, you don't under-
stand this is a place where you have
to have grant-in-aid money and Colonial
Development and Welfare money be-
cause the same people say you are not
to raise the taxes. It is taxation that
brings about those social amenities and
social services in the country. But this
is a most peculiar place, you have pied
pipers and magicians running all over
the country like people drunk with mor-
phine and crying out you mustn't pay
taxes. We promise that inordinate and
indiscriminate taxation should be
avoided but not the normal course of
taxation by which people benefit in the
country. The very fact that we are
speaking here today is a testimony of
the fact that the people never listened
to all these types of statements.

Sea Island Cotton-Now I heard some-
one say this morning, the Member for
South Leeward-He forgot that beauti-
ful sea island cotton. It is a pity that
it wasn't six times a weaker less beauti-

Debate on the Address

ful cotton, it would help us more today
because the world has become synthetic,
so scientific that the value in the United
States in Egypt and such places that
produce cotton to make all of their goods
and to say nothing of the things from
Japan because their short staple cheap
cotton can make all they want, while we
have our high-grade cotton special grade
that has to go to Lancashire for

and its price goes up like the balances
of a scale, now down, now up, the result
is that we deceive ourselves into believ-
ing that cotton is one of our crops when
the people themselves throw down the
cotton when they want to. There are
some lands, of course, where no bananas
can be grown and arrowroot is not
planted where sweet potatoes can be
grown there. During the drop in. the
cotton price in England, Mr. Speaker,
before it turned back again to its price,
the people refused to plant cotton ind
what they did with those vacant lands
at the time the Marketing Board was
formed and they availed themselves of
the opportunity to put in potatoes where
they formerly put cotton. What was the
result? the result was at the same time
another market was in Trinidad. Other
markets were prospected for but no good
result would come. At the tifie when
people had put in about three times or
four times more potatoes than ever be-
fore in the Colony, it could not be mar-
keted in Trinidad. Then it wasn't the
fault of the Govenment. The Govern-
ment could not be blamed for people
who have their land and plant it. There
is no embargo here, no enactment, no
statute by which people can be told
what to plant, you plant exactly what
you care to plant. But since the Mar-
keting Board was established then Gov-
ernment by ordinance controlled the
potatoes, then the Government would
have to set up a market here but at
that time when the Marketing Board

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

was set up right or wrong fair or foul,
it was launched and it was at that time
of the launching of the Marketing Board
that this cotton fiasco took place and
the' price fell miserably. At the same
time if not shortly afterwards the gin-
nery burnt out, catastrophes, you would
call them.. The result was that these
same people attempted after the Mar-
keting Board started at a very lucrative
price'that you would 'get sweet potatoes
and the people availed themselves it
is human nature St. Vincent and all
about:- the land were planted in pota-
toes. When I said this morning that
potatoes were over produced the average
honest-citizen can understand what I
mean: When coffee is overproduced the
only thing to do is to burn millions of
pounds of coffee. We didn't burn the
potatoes, we tried to manufacture a
starch that has good sale. There is an-
arrowrbot pool there that generally
manufactures a starch which is also
sold here. We are explaining these

Yes, Mr. Speaker, remarks were made
here about teachers, about education,
about -education officer and what he
knows and what he doesn't know.

Some years ago, I think it was in 1957,
I went to England and got seven hun-
dred and odd thousand dollars to dis-
tribute among the teachers) here in what
we called the Petter Investigation and
Report. What has happened in this year
or last year beginning an investigation
into the Civil Service is not and was not
a teachers report. The Grossmith report
wasn't an exclusive teacher's report but
the teachers in good faith had the full-
est support of the St. Vincent Govern-
ment. Out of the group, they had re-
fused to accept any separate payment.
They wanted their own investigation to
take place as the Petter Scheme or some
exclusive scheme towards them and they

Debate on the Address

acted accordingly. They met His Hon-
our the Administrator in this country.
Some people still forget the changes that
are taking place in this country and this
morning the Opposition talked about
colonialism and anti-colonialism oppos-
ed to each other and about this age.
People like them should know better, to
go out to ignore ministers completely
and write directly to the officer admin-
istering the government, people should
know better ignore completely the Min-
isterial system of their country little by
little and come here like innocent people
and talk. these things as if they were
true that they are interested in the ad-
vancement of this government and this
colonialism. They could only deceive
some of us not all of us.

Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, the tir-
ades were delivered in such an indis-
criminate fashion. The question is, Mr.
Speaker, when we adjourned, we were
on the question of the Civil Servants
and the teachers. It is a fact that in
1959 the then Financial Secretary Mr.
Charles was attached to this government
went to Port-of-Spain and we carried
there with the estimates a series of civil
servants who were stagnating in their
graves. In other words they were dis-
contented civil servants. It was not
possible to do so unless we appealed to
the Federal Government because any
slight increase in the tax structure of
the country to provide services for the
country itself, met with twisting and a
barrage of misdirection to the public,
hence, our main source of additional
revenue comes directly from grants,
grant-in-aid and Colonial Development
and Welfare. We tactfully picked out
all those stagnated graves bearing in
mind that the country or government or
administration cannot be run success-
fully if we have disgruntled civil ser-
vants wanting increased wages. When
the Ministers of Government with the

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

Financial Secretary went to Port-of-
Spain and presented our estimates, when
that section of the estimates came down
to our advanced proposal, the Minister
for Finance in the Federal Government
who was here recently campaigning for
the Labour Party, he made it quite clear
that this could not come off, they will
have to wait their turn until some re-
grading is done. We replied as the Gov-
ernment who wanted contented Civil
Servants that the Federal Government
recruits the best'civil servants from all
these islands and pay them a salary the
Units in the Windward and Leewards
could not afford to pay; added to that
there vwas Trinidad and Jamaica and
even Barbados who were able to pay a
little more or much more than we can
afford to pay. On that explanation the
Financial Secretary for the Federal Gov-
ernment made it unmistakably clear -
he said:- "You are grant-aided, you
are treasury controlled and if the civil
servants do not want to work for what
the territory could afford to pay them"
- I ask leave of the House to say the
exact words because two Ministers who
attended the Financial talks for grant-
in-aid are here around the table "let
them go to hell". I subdued myself very
much throughout the discussion, I pock-
eted those words of insults and I re-
torted: "Well then if you are not going
to take any piece meal way about it, we
are going to press that an impartial
commission of enquiry be set up to in-
vestigate the services of our country."
Leaving Piarco, I made the communique
through the Press and the Radio and
that was carried over the air concerning
the precarious position of the civil ser-
vice of these islands. It did riot need
the Federal Government to reduce these
islands to want they are. Freedom of
movement is not any fundamental thing,
we will come to that chapter later. The
result was by some powerful agitation
they were forced to set up the Grossmith

Debate on the Address

investigation. That was made not by the
Governments of St. Vincent, Grenada,
St. Lucia and Dominica. It was made by
competent civil servants who came from
Trinidad to take up appointment, we
know what has happened now is a mat-
ter of history. There were many things
incomplete and they had to be brought
to date. During that time the elections
were taking place, we were accused of all
sorts of things, the civil servants joined
forces, became two political camps, the
greater portion of them trying to bring
pressure to bear on government. The
very people who told them to go to hell
they flocked around them in the market
square listening to their orations and
they were the same people who said they
could go to hell if they didn't want the
salary their territory could afford to pay,
before the Ministers of the Government
and the Financial Secretary. Well, Mr.
Speaker, it went on with those things
becoming an accomplished fact. There
were many things that happened in
sequences. I had to go to the Inter-
governmental Conference. During my
absence, through the, Inter-governmen-
tal Conference, for a few days, as I left
the country, the teachers struck. It is
not quite clear to me. why they struck.
What I do know is that two Caribbean
teachers, one from Grenada.and another
one from St. Lucia came here and was
the arbiter of the arbitration. The
Chief Minister nor the Minister for Edu-
cation knew nothing why the teachers
went on strike. It was absolutely be-
hind my pack. The Member for South
Leeward this morning made an astonish-
ing statement. I must make a note 'of
it in this Honourable House. He spoke
of a division, that is to say two divisions
part-the civil servants, the teachers, all
the people who serve the government are
in two divisions agitating. That divis-
ion, Mr. Speaker, can only tell us that
the statement I made this morning that
the civil servants propelled on by the

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

political arm is trying not merely to agi-
tate for salaries, that dosen't seem to be
correct, that doesn't seem to be logical,
at all because those people are the intel-
ligent people of the country who know
the state of the country, who have the
support of the Government, who, in fact,
Ministers went out in all respects to do
all that lay in their power to converse
their rights and liberties. But we hear
this morning that there are two camps.
Well we are......

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, on a
point of explanation. I think the Chief
Minister misquoted me. I did say about
two camps but not of the civil service.
I spoke about the island having two par-
ties and the amount of people we have,
our actions are divided into two political
parties, but not the civil service and the

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, let
me read from my notes: Ministers are
interfering with the Civil Servants.
They are fed up, this country will be
split into two.

HON. H: F. YOUNG: :Your notes con-
found you. It is the country that is
split into two camps, not the Civil Ser-

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, and
so what is happening now is a serious
state of affairs the only thing to do is to
take action in the Government. Arid
the Legislative Council should know'it.
In the. Income Tax Department people
were giving out information and in the
Treasury they :were using their jobs to
aid and abet people.

MR. SPEAKER: I must draw to the at-
tention of the Chief Minister that with
regard to, individual people, firstly, they
are not in a position to answer for
themselves and who in the second place

Debate on the Address

must normally be subject to disciplinary
action any allegation about corruption
would not be in order at this stage.
There must be a substantive motion or
disciplinary action through normal gov-
ernmental channels.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, I
have done all in my power in the last
three years to cooperate and these Op-
position Members have made it quite
clear in this House today, they have act-
ually opened the bar to all vices and
made it quite clear that the civil service
is split into two and there are also forces
at work in the country. They have made
it quite clear today, you heard it and it
isn't as though it is written in shorthand
and it cannot be translated bick. And
there is a note of every cogent point that
is made here. (And there ought to be a
head of the Civil Service and you may
ask yourself the question).

The Throne Speech is not worth the
paper it was written on. It was the
worse of dissatisfied teachers. There was
nothing, Mr. Speaker, that the Civil Ser-
vants or the teachers at this dispensa-
tion should have got. Nothing more was
put to us nor nothing more we could
have done the civil servants, but to give
them exactly what we gave them. They
weren't satisfied. The Chief Minister was
not in the country, their counterparts
came from the other islands and they
were actually told that the Ministry con-
cerned knew nothing of the case, the
Chief Minister knew nothing of the case.
And that was that. .Shortly after my
back was turned again, I was at the
Inter-governmental Conference and I
am paying .that the public when these
things were done in black and white
they will be there for all to read.

Now, we spoke on the question of Gun
Munro and Harry Munro. During the
election these people went about making

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

allegations all over the country, there
were allegations being made and it was
a vicious circle around this country. And
it was said that if a certain party came
into power Gun Munro would poison out
the people. That was circulated in this
country. I myself, approached the good
doctor asking him to defend his name.
Through some fear he didn't do it. He
disassociated himself from the remarks.
So these doctors' names are called; when
we lose Gun Munro, no doctors will come
to St. Vincent.......

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, on a
point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: Will the Chief Minister
please sit down.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, this
is total twisting, Sir. When I referred
to the two doctors this morning, I re-
ferred to the profession and to the big
job they're doing in the hospital. I am
sure you will remember, I never had
anything to say about poison. I only
drew the remarks because of the heavy
work they're doing in the hospital. This
is unfair he's failed to reply to the
question. This is total twisting, against
all professional ethics.

MR. SPEAKER: I think the Honourable
Chief Minister will realise that the ref-
erence to the two doctors were with
reference to the splendid work they were
doing. There was no suggestion what-
ever of that kind. I think the Honour-
able Chief Minister should withdraw
those remarks. It really did not come
into the debate.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: God knows what
we will do when they are gone. We had
Stinson and Martin here, every person
who went on the operating table three
died. Gun Munro came and things were
a little better. Let him go too, somebody
else will come.

Debate on the Address

Union: This is the vexed question.
Some people are very sore because work-
ers are protected. They come into this
Honourable House, Members who are
antisocialist, come into this House and
make all sorts of remarks about the
leaders of the members of the govern-
ment. Now, Mr. Speaker, the 'question
of the Government running a union.
The government runs no union. There
is only one union trying to keep the
workers organised so that we can appear
to be a civilised country where workers
rights are respected. But Sir, before the
advent of the Speakership, when His
Honour the Administrator was President
of this Council and his deputy Mr. Cyrus,
it is good for you to know the amount of
insults and derision on this Union and
that shows that these people who speak
in this House, Members of this Council
are anti-Labour, anti-socialist, and anti-
everything. Since when one's back is
turned there is a sorry state in the
country and they are people here who
do not care whether they live or die.
The union relations must go on, organ-
ised labour, must exist.

Now the School Building Programme.
In the Throne Speech we referred to
schools and education. What we ob-
serve, Mr. Speaker, is that no one is
capable in the government only a type
of Opposition who get up here and
speak spasmodically. So we are satisfied
that we do our best for this country.
We have set out and we have built 11
schools, they were built in our dispen-
sation and time and I think the govern-
ment has done a good job of work. It is
a pattern throughout the world that
teachers are dissatisfied, St. Vincent is
no exception. We know our island we
can only do what we can do, we can only
use the money that is at our disposal. If
a fairy god-mother brought a bag of
money tonight and it will increase our
revenue, well we will give a sum of
money to the teachers. But this com-

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

munity will have to look at the quality
of teaching that goes on in the country.
When Government plays its part and
people take sides in politics and stall the
government as far as education is con-
cerned, the children inevitably suffer.
When the country is divided into two
sections then one division might be right
and the other wrong. The division that
assumes wrong rule in the country by
using ruthless machinery that seems to
hold on everyone and results in disunity
in the work and the children inevitably

Professor Frampton: The first act of
the new government in 1957 was to in-
vite here a team of experts to explore
the agricultural possibilities. Most of the
roads in a scientific way to connect vast
areas of arable land suitable for ban-
anas. That is the adaptation of the
Frampton Report. These road systems
that were bulldozed are at Chapmans,
New Ground, the Leeward Coast, Eves-
ham, all of these roads were on the
advice of Professor Frampton and the
team of experts, to assist in bringing out
the bananas. Reports are being made
to Colonial Office in the Interim Aid
Programme to which reference was made
to Professor Frampton's Report and it is
valued highly so that we could get what
was recommended there for the roads.
Yet we heard that Professor Frampton's
Report was shelved. Let me use the
exact words: "Professor Frampton's Re-
port was scrapped." I would like to
assure this House that it is being used.
We used it up to May/June in the Con-
ference in London because we clamoured
for some token of good will before the
London Conference in January that we
should have an Interim Aid Programme,
irrespective of what big financial devel-
opment would take place in this island
in January next. That was done and we
had all our reports and statistics and
Professor Frampton's Report was one of

Debate on the Address

the principle reports used in that exer-
cise. So then, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and
Gentlemen, this Honourable House, Pro-
fessor Frampton's R e p o r t was not

The banana: When we speak lightly
of the banana and when we speak of
parasites (the Speaker tried in vain this
morning to correct)i we get this that we
speak of a Banana Association. Had it
not been for the good grace of this Gov-
ernment in 1957 today, in truth and in
fact we would not have had any ban-
anas at all, neither twenty-nine thous-
and stems or a hundred thousand stems.
By the Grace of God and the tenacity
of this Government we were able to save
the industry.

The Government Cotton Ginnery: We
had reference to it today. We really
thought that an insurance of forty-one
thousand pounds could not possibly-
build a modern factory today. We there-
fore thought that we should raise money
to build a cotton ginnery on modern
lines perhaps to add many little things
that the other places need in due course,
margarine, lard and the rest of it, be-
cause the West Indies are soon to be-
come independent and it is quite true
that we will have to industrialize be-
cause we have the raw material. But
Mr. Speaker, we cannot build up the
Government Cotton Ginnery as fast as
it took to burn it down. If we wanted to
build just the same thing in the same
way it would take a much shorter time.
Hence we have to make all our plans
and import our machinery. And the
Member for South Leeward spoke about
gins, putting up a few pieces of bamboo
sticks and bring gins, that is his idea.
But we have to set up a proper factory.
We had to beg the places who had gins
to gin our cotton. Barbados doesn't
usually gin cotton and Antigua refrained
to gin our cotton for fear that worms

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

they said, would get into their country.
For that reason alone they did not assist
their neighboring country in the Fed-
eration asking aid from them. Hence
the last ginned cotton was the worse St.
Vincent has ever known. The mills were
not suitable because Barbados has no
cotton to gin but we are thankful on
that score because the cotton ginnery
was burnt out, some say by an act of
God, but an act of God takes years to
replace. I am to report that we have
the machinery on order from an ex-
perienced up-to-date firm in England.
We have plans to establish both oil
crushing plants and gins at Arnos Vale
in buildings that were reported favour-
able. In this year of grace I think we
will begin a reconstruction of that cotton

Now Sir, before we finish. The Mem-
ber for South Leeward in his speech re-
ferred to Freedom of Movement. And I
think that it is unjust to bring people
who have tried their best to save West
Indian unity to contempt and ridicule.
It is very unfair. To handle freedom of
movement let me tell you what the argu-
ment was. The argument, Mr. Speaker,
was that a firm Federation set out in
the mechanics of nationhood by Dr. Eric
Williams would not have effect. We
agreed and made words at the Inter-
governmental Conference and repeated
those words in London that the mechan-
ics of nationhood had actually been
thrown into the fire. He made a bold
statement although in Trinidad that if
Jamaica would leave the Federation,
Trinidad would not go it alone and
would sue for their independence. Trini-
dad, as you know is not in the Federa-
tion at all, is best fitted for indepen-
dence, her royalties alone being able to
cooperate actually in the West Indies,
we want to conserve a state of unity
because too long these islands have been
isolated units, would suffer most. Not

Debate on the Address

Freedom of Movement, Federation and
unity itself. Eighty-one point something
percent of the Federal revenue of thirty
million dollars will be borne by Trinidad
and Jamaica. We know that the insul-
arities which exist among these islands
for so many years cannot be bridged
overnight. The debate that took place
in London, the Tribunal Conference of
,Trinidad, the Teachers Union of Trini-
dad, sent their agents up there to con-
fuse teachers more than they are con-
fused for ten days exercised that they
could come nearer to them for the pur-
pose of unity, the Teachers Union of
Trinidad and Tobago said by the-Opposi-
tion in the debate though it was said
that I agreed to sell the rights of the
people here, the connection between
Trinidad to sell the rights of Trinidad
on freedom of movement would have
effect. I could not see the connection
according to the Member for South Lee-
ward when he talked about selling the
people here in connection with freedom
of movement. It is so irrelevant, and
erratic. Mr. Speaker, the question now
arose that Mr. Manley, Premier of Jam-
aica after he had done all his business
tricks, he said: Freedom of movement
wouldn't affect him and so of course if
there were certain difficulties surround-
ing the Trinidad Government the Con-
ference had a right to look into it. Fair
enough. What are those difficulties? A
hot debate ensued in which one of the
Ministers for Barbados .made it quite
clear in talking to Dr. Williams the
Premier of Trinidad that there is no
Barbadian Shanty Town. We took ex-
ception to that, especially St. Vincent.
If there are Vincentians or Grenadians,
especially Vincentians they would de-
velop their own people. If they make
Shanty Town an independent dominion
within the Commonwealth we can't
afford to make shanty towns for our
people so we have to develop our terri-
tory in the course of time so that they

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

can be able to live on our produce with-
out making shanty towns. One of the
Ministers made that quite clear and I
took exception of that because I Will see
to it that we make no Shanty Towns
there. I would refer to the review of
the Federal Constitution and I am
speaking on the Report of the Inter-
governmental Conference on the 2nd
May, 1961, paragraph 2 or 3, page 43 of
it: "Mr. Joshua expressed his concern
over the possible restrictions on freedom
of movement within our new nation,
havii-n regard to the West Indian migra-
tion problem in the United Kingdom. He
pointed out that there would be internal
free trade which would mean that the
people of one territory would have tobuy
goods at a fairly high price from another
territory but would not be able to take
part in the manufacture of those goods.
Freedom of movement was a matter of
national prestige, restrictions within the
new nation would put a stigma upon the
people when they went abroad; he sup-
ported the proposal of Alpa and he
supported the suggestion from the Trini-
dad and Tobago delegation on the post-
ponement of freedom of movement in-
definitely. He was fully alive to the
problems confronting Trinidad and was
anxious to find a solution which would
avoid injury to the economy of that
territory. He would agree to a reason-
able compromise as to the indefinite
postponement of freedom of movement."
I quote that passage, Mr. Speaker, be-
cause it has been alleged here this morn-

HON. R. M. C4TO: Mr. Speaker, I woula
like to refer your attention to the Stand-
ing Rules and Orders found in the Statu-
tory Rules and Order for 1954 No. 2
Section 30. "An Order of the Day, notice
of motion or amendment of which notice
has been given shall not be anticipated
in a debate upon a motion for the ad-
journment of the Council or in any other

Debate on the Address

debate." I would point out that there is
a motion on the Order Paper dealing
with Freedom of Movement and the
Honourable the Chief Minister is out of
order to deal with this motion which is
due for debate.

MR. SPEAKER: I think Honourable
Member for East St. George would re-
member that the Honourable Member
for South Leeward in debating the
Throne Speech went very, very elabor-
ately into the question of freedom of
movement and I am sure that it would
be only reasonable to allow the Honour-
able Chief Minister to reply to the points
raised because he went very elaborately
into the matter.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, the
Member for Central Windward will have
every opportunity of dealing with this
in a substantive motion which is before
the House and the rule forbids anti-
cipation of discussion of a motion which
is coming up before the motion is moved,
if the Honourable the Chief Minister or
any other member wished to take ex-
ception of anything that was said by the
Member for South Leeward for the same
reasons they have every right to draw
your attention to it, Mr. Speaker. I am
drawing your attention to this rule and
to the fact that the course being pursued
by the Honourable the Chief Minister at
the present time is out of order and
contravenes this rule. This isn't a mat-
ter of using your discretion, it contra-
venes the rule.

MR. SPEAKER: If the Honourable Mem-
ber for East St. George will note the
motion is a motion with regard to what
St. Vincent should do immediately upon
the attainment of Independence of the
West Indies Federation. It's not a ques-
tion of what are the territories' steps,
but what should be done immediately
and therefore this is not dealing with

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

what steps are to be taken immediately
upon the attainment of Independence.
So I am not prepared to say that it
anticipates this motion.
HoN. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, the
same thing. Now that there is an or-
derly House with a Speaker, many of the
member,4 are accustomed to wild-cat be-
haviour and that is the difficulty here
now. Here this morning we listened to
a long tirade and all sorts of things were
spoken about selling out St. Vincent,
selling out Vincentians, now that I am
lepiying to that tirade, a member gets
up and tries to prevent me. That is
what you call democracy.
One of the most ardent speakers on
Freedom of Freedom of Movement was
the member and a delegation went
down, it wasn't a lone delegation, it was
a delegation of the Minister of Commu-
nications and Works, the Honourable
Attorney General and myself. Fortun-
ately enough, both members of my
group were in Trinidad at the Inter-
governmental Conference and were also
in London. None of these members
heard anything which suggested to the
House during the debate on any sub-
ject, especially Freedom of Movement,
that Joshua sold out Vincentians. But
ha clamoured and answered to the point
that freedom of niovement is the in-
alienable right of any federal structure.
It is the hallmark of sovereignty and if
in a new federation everything has
failed I would disagree to indiscrimin-
ate movement of people to crowd the
people's territory immediately. I would
suggest from St. Vincent during a de-
bate, I was speaking Mr. Speaker, before
quoting this passage to enlighten this
House what was happening at the Inter-
governmental Conference inspite of all
the rumours that were circulated around
the countryside about what Joshua said
and what he didn't say. The question, Mr.
Speaker, was that after this question of

Debate on the Address

freedom of movement arose, Dr. Eric
Williams, the Premier of Trinidad, pro-
duced figures. But the trouble is, Mr.
Speaker, that the boss of the Opposition
presented himself at Trinidad at the
Inter-governmental Conference, it was a
shame and disgrace that people had to
go to defend the right of so many
who behaved like that so that the
member for East St. George, backed
by the Member for South Leeward,
a most disunited set of people who
serve the West Indies at the time
and I am saying this, Mr. Speaker,
that if I come to the aid of the Federa-
tion and save the Federation because
what we went for, what we were going
to discuss wasn't freedom of movement,
we went to, discuss an Independent Fed-
eration within the Commonwealth of
Nations. And Mr. Speaker, in this report
once more of the Review of the Federal
Constitution: "Mr. Joshua pointed out
that his territory and Grenada were the
two most directly affected by this issue
but though he accepted Freedom of
Movement as an attribute of sovereignty
he recognized that reasonable qualifica-
tions were necessary." We could not be
a party Mr. Speaker for facts and reali-
ties stood stark before us and the fact
remains that our population crowding
into somebody's else country to create
tension, to create strife to create labour
disputes. I think, Sir that these things
are welcome because some members are
labouring under the illusion that free-
dom of movement will only affect Trini-
dad. That is the greatest fallacy that
was ever spoken in the West Indies.
Freedom of Movement will affect the ten
colonies in the Federation, it will only
affect St. Vincent more. They're speak-
ing in terms of the fact that because
the whole of St. Vincent may have the
right to vote by caravans and aqueducts
might take themselves off to Trinidad,
that it is their idea of freedom of move-
ment. That isn't the idea of reasonable

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Administrator's Speech-

people of Freedom of Movement at all.
Freedom of movement will not interfere
with the movement that is going on.
The discussion and debate that took place
in Trinidad was the best in the circum-
stances that could have been done.
There was a point that Mr. Manley
stated, that his reputation hangs on a
string in Jamaica and by right to keep
him a political leader the President Gen-
eral of the Federal Labour Party-but
the question is that we who are trying to
smash up the Federation will be nothing
without it. Therefore when Mr. Williams
said that he is satisfied that the me-
chanics of nationhood is gone and that
he would not remain there one hour
without Jamaica. What is your position
to sit down there when the sword is
dangling over our heads, the small
islands, we two of us 81.6 per cent of the
Federal Revenue and the people of
Jamaica and Trinidad offer their full re-
sentment in all respects to a federation
where they don't have their points of
view being heard. The Union Confer-
ence of Trinidad, the question of the
Teachers' Union and all responsible pow-
ers that they have in Trinidad backed
Eric Williams' stand so the whole of
Trinidad was united and then in the
morning when the deadlock came, Mr.
lain Macloed the Secretary of State for
the Colonies took every Chief Minister
and Premier to discuss this matter be-
cause the Federation was hanging on
the brink. Dr. Williams stood up there
like a hawk over a cliff, like a man
standing the:e with no compromise. We
can get our Independence by ourselves.
It is unfair, Mr. Speaker, that these re-
marks that Joshua is going to England
to sell out the people of St. Vincent and
the West Indies should be made by res-
ponsible politicians.

And so Mr. Speaker, the Honourable
Member for South Windward in his
debate again referred to seventy-five

Debate on the Address

thousand dollars white elephant in Can-
ouan. I would like to answer him. We
have here, Mr. Speaker, a condition
where fish and meat there was a clam-
our for control in this country, we could
not control such commodities in times of
peace neither could we think of control-
ling because when you control a com-
modity, you control that commodity to
protect the community, in a way the
lower man always suffers by it. You
control produce blackmarketed, the
wrong person always gets the bigger
share at the reasonable price and so we
in our wisdom thought that the best
answer to the shortage of meat and fish
was to develop a meat and fish industry
bond and that exportation of all cattle
should be prevented, those who wanted
to import meat to give them liberty to
do so to stem the tide of the shortage
of meat. That was the best answer,
Control would not answer it. But we
hear amazing things from the Member
for South Windward that the seventy-
five thousand dollars ice boxes was a
white elephant. I am surprised to hear
that when there are fishing boats, a co-
operative loan of money to buy cattle
and to buy engines, the Member doesn't
know what is happening in the country.
And so, Sir, just now there will no longer
be a shortage of fish we will have fish
at a good price because ice boxes are
being built not only in Canouan, ice-
boxes will be built on the south side, in
Kingstown and so that is an industry,
not a white elephant. Some people
bring news to this House and repeat it
like parrots without finding out facts.
We have heard, Sir, thirty-five thous-
and dollars spent on potatoes and the
member for South Windward spoke on
it. We spoke just now of over produced
potatoes. They were over produced be-
cause cotton lands had no cotton crop
the price failed and they actually put in
potatoes there. The amount of potatoes
produced there the only market was


Administrator's Speech-

Trinidad because all the subsidiary mar-
kets presented the problem of transport-
ation as the time of the movement of
goods no boats was available and so the
only logical market was Trinidad. After
having our price cut considerably, there
were more potatoes than could be sold.
The Government seeing the difficulty of
the farmer came to his aid as any pat-
ernal and responsible government would times of drought, in times of any
disadvantages that may beset the farm-
er. The Government has the right to
come to his assistance because they took
it up and began to turn it to their
account. The Government acted and
that is how thirty-five thousand dollars
went. And so, Mr. Speaker, we were in
duty bound to assist the farmer in sub-
sidy. How they did it in Brazil when
the coffee is over-produced, they burn
millions of pounds of coffee so that it
wouldn't go back into circulation so that
the price level may be maintained. We
didn't burn out potatoes, a new industry
was born by that error of the planters
who planted too many potatoes at the
time when they had no market in Trini-
dad. A new industry was born, a starch
industry, potato starch. So we know
that if we have overproduced potatoes
again how we can level off the amount
of potatoes by making a useful commod-
ity. And the Members of the Opposition
can only criticise. We were able to save
some of the potatoes and turn them into
starch. This starch is a pretty starch,
it is not the type of starch recited here
this morning. It is a starch that can go
on the market and compete with cassava
starch, corn starch or any one of those
starches. According to the report of the
Minister for Trade and Production, that
starch is doing well. There is a feel-
ing that cassava starch and arrowroot
starch, a lower grade of arrowroot starch
is being sold to those customers in the
West Indies who take that starch while
there are three types, cassava,; arrowroot
low grade and our new industry, potato


Adjournment-Motion on the

starch. Well, I answer these points be-
cause I feel that the record should be
kept here. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I
have done that which is my duty by
summing up all these points raised by
two members of this Council, the Mem-
ber for South Leeward and the Member
for South Windward.

The question put and resolved in the
affirmative without division.

MR. SPEAKER: In view of the time,
Honourable Members, I propose that
these two motions be carried on to the
next meeting of the Legislative Council.


HON. B. F. DIAS: Mr. Speaker, I have
pleasure in moving that the House do
now adjourn sine die.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: I beg to second

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, there
are one or two matters which I would
like to draw to the attention of the
House on this motion for the adjourn-
ment. And the first is the very unsatis-
factory reply given by the Honourable
Chief Minister with respect to the
postponement of the statutory meetings
for June and July. This eyewash, Mr.
Speaker, of not having people here to
carry on the business of the House
doesn't hold water. The moment that
the Honourable the Chief Minister left
this territory an Acting Chief Minister
was appointed. An Acting Chief Minis-
ter who immediately began to draw his
emoluments and allowances as Chief
Minister, and the moment the Minister
for Communications and Works left
this territory similarly, another member
stepped into his shoes.

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Motion on the

Mr. Speaker, I have promised to be
kind to the lady today, don't let me
break my resolution, Mr. Speaker, the
Honourable Attorney General left and
immediately an Honourable Attorney
General was appointed to act in his
place at the taxpayers expense. Under
these rules a quorum has been stipu-
lated and laid down for the proceedings
of this House, and it is no excuse, what-
soever, to say that there were no people
here to carry on the business of the
House. That is a great charge against
the Honourable Members on the other
side who were acting for their colleagues.
They had a quorum, they had substitute
ministers in their places and they still
maintain a majority in this House. What
is this flimsy excuse of not having people
to carry on the business of the House,
except the Honourable the Chief Minis-
ter is laying a charge against the Acting
Chief Minister and accusing him of
being incapable or incompetent and
unless he is also laying a charge against
the other acting minister and accusing
him of being incapable and incompe-
tent. That excuse did not hold water.
There were similar situations in other
territories and the business of the coun-
try went on and I am bringing this to
the attention of this House, Mr. Speaker
in the hope that such a situation will
not occur again and that the business
of this country will go on as long as
there. are substitute ministers and min-
isters acting in the places of those who
have gone abroad on business and a
quorum of this House remains. There
is absolutely no excuse.

Now Mr. Speaker, I come to a very
important matter. The Honourable
Chief Minister has made frequent ref-
erences to the London Conference. And
he has made reference to the conference
held to discuss the Constitution of the
Windward and Leeward Islands. Indeed
a white paper on both of these matters
has been published and we spent the

whole day here and I have heard at an
early stage that the Chief Minister is
going to make an announcement. I hope
that with the announcement we will
hear something about the conferences
and that the relevant white papers
would have been laid on this table and
that something would have been said
about debate on these white papers
which have to be debated in due course
but we have now come to the adjourn-
HoN. E. T. JosIThA: (Rose.)
HON. R. M. CATO: Now, Mr. Speaker,
I do not regard this as an excuse with
the experience of the Chief Minister in
this House he is going to say that that
the only time he is to lay White Paper
is when the adjournment comes around.
The Honourable Minister has done this
time and time again and now he is
telling this House the only time is when
the adjournment comes around. This
excuse is quite flimsy. I am not going
to say much about it now because ob-
viously the Chief Minister has been
brought to his senses and I hope he is
going to illustrate it by having the rele-
vant documents laid on the Table.
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: The paper will be
laid at the next meeting.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, the
Chief Minister must not be too big to
learn if he has made a slip up. Let me
say that the paper has been published,
we know that the decisions of the Lon-
don Conference have to come before this
House for approval if you do not want
to put it off indefinitely waste your time
and people's time. Now that he has ap-
preciated the significance and import-
ance of this thing, I hope that this cor-
rection will be made in due course.
And now. we come to another import-
ant point. There was also another very
important conference held in Trinidad
if the Honourable Minister of Trade and
Production would wake up from his


Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Motion on the

s!imbe- I might be able to deal with a
matter which ought to be of some in-
terest to him. Is it against the rules of
this House for Members to sleep during
debate, Mr. Speaker? Now, Mr. Speaker,
there is a discussion on a matter of
extreme importance to this West Indian
territory as to other territories, a matter
concerning the European Common Mar-
ket; and I believe the Minister of Trade
and Production attended that confer-
ence, as usual, they did not have the
courtesy to notify members of this House
or to try to sound out the opinion of
Members of this House. But the Minis-
ter for Trade and Production departed
on his way to attend the Conference, we
heard not a single utterance from him
about it without any brief from this
House and he has returned and main-
tained that pious silence for which he
is now becoming famous. I hope, Mr.
Speaker, like the Chief Minister that the
Honourable the Minister for Trade and
Production will tell us that he didn't
have the opportunity but he will remedy
the situation very shortly. Indeed we
have heard from all the other territor-
ies. We have heard debates, the Hon-
ourable the Chief Minister likes to refer
to Dr. Williams the Premier of Trinidad,
he seems to have got a sudden admira-
tion for the Premier whom he spent a
lot of time maligning in the past. The
Premier of Trinidad and Tobago before
embarking on these discussions con-
sulted the commercial fraternity, the
Chamber of Commerce, he brought it up
in a debate in the Legislative Council of
Trinidad and Tobago and neighboring
Grenada which should be following our
example in these things, they held dis-
cussions with their various organizations
and interested parties, they held discus-
sions in the House. What are we doing
in St. Vincent, remaining the grand
exception in everything? These Minis-
ters, Mr. Speaker, depart to London on
this very important conference, no dis-
cussions in this House. They come back

and we hear nothing about it, an im-
portant issue like the Windward and
Leewards Conference, not a word to the
House either before or after. Now the
European Common Market and the Min-
ister for Trade and Production goes
down and comes back, not a word about
it. What sort of Government are we
endeavouring to run? No consultation
with the people, no regard or respect
either for the Opposition or the people
who by their votes put their confidence
in the Honourable Members opposite and
gave them the responsibility for running
their affairs. As soon as the Honourable
Members realize and appreciate that
they have got to discuss with the people
who put them there, they have got to
report to them, they have got to consult
them if they are going to maintain their
position for any length of time, it is
better for them, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I have had something to
say about the public service, about the
civil service. We have heard a lot about
it here today, and indeed, I have come
to the conclusion, since the Honourable
Chief Minister seems so fond of referring
to the political leaders of other territor-
ies to refer to the Honourable the' Prem-
ier of Trinidad as being our boss over
here,he has made references to Mr.
Norman Manley, the President General,
as he calls him, of the West Indies Fed-
eral Labour Party, I suppose he is one of
my bosses. I am glad that the Honour-
able Minister is able to distinguish who
lis the boss of the Opposition, we have
the boss of the party on the otherside at
Federal level, is it Badhase, is it Busta,
is it Theckland? I don't believe the
Honourable Members can tell us them-
selves. But since Mr. Sinanan declared
at one time that he was the active
Leader of the Democratic Labour Party
which, I believe, is the parent top party
of the PPP, I would like to adopt the
words of Mr. Sinanan on this subject of
the Civil Service and since, as I said
this morning, the members on the other


Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Motion on the

side seem to stretch out their claws the
moment we endeavour to give them any
advice, perhaps if I use......since the
Honourable Minister and the other Min-
isters on the other side might be more
inclined to take advice if it comes from
the words of Mr. Sinanan and I hope
that these words coming as they do
from a Member of their own party, Mr.
Speaker, a distinguished Member of their
Party whom they acknowledge as their
boss, I'm going to read from "Our
Declaration of Rights" by Ashford Sin-
anan, Member of Parliament, one-time
Leader of the Democratic Labour Party,
parent body of the PPP, this is what he
says about the Civil Service, Mr. Speaker,
I don't mind these little asides at all,
Mr. Speaker, they don't put me out at
all, in fact I'm glad to see that the Chief
Minister is enjoying himself and has
relaxed a bit from the tension. "In the
name of the people we repeat these
words to both parties and to the entire
Legislature. Let it be clearly understood
that justice free elections, government
by consent, co-operation and the ballot
box are absolutely necessary to dem-
ocracy so is an independent civil service.
Remember well that political heads will
come and go and we are-confident that
people will see to that but the Civil
Service goes on. And we give you 7o
understand that the Civil Servant from:_
the lowest to the highest is there t)
administer without fear or favour th:
policy presented to the people........

HON. V. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, whqt
is the Member quoting, there now? Just
now he was quoting from the Federal
Structure. He hasn't told us what he is
quoting from.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, I am
sure you will draw the attention of the
Honourable Chief Minister to the fact
that I repeated very loudly and clearly
that I am reading from "Our Declara-

tion of Rights" by Ashford Sinanan,
Member of Parliament, every other
member, you also, heard i1. I'm going
to make you a present of a copy, I be-
lieve you already have a copy. "And we
give you to understand that the Civil
Service from the lowest to the highest
is there to administer without fear or
favour the policy presented to the people
by the government party, so that, we
are of the opinion that as long as the
Civil Servants remain loyal in their de-
votion to duty, once they are faithful
and unselfish in their interpretation of
Policy, as long as they advise against a
certain point in all honesty and dis-
charge their tasks honourable then we
demand that civil servants should not
be victimised because of their political
beliefs." Now I come to it "or because
of membership of a political party.
Indeed, we would suggest to our Legis-
lature that every effort should be made
to make it clear to all the people that
civil servants should remain in positions
of trust and importance regardless of
their political creed." So, Mr. Speaker,
I hope that the Honourable the Chief
Minister and his colleagues on the other
side will find it possible to alopt the
words of wisdom which come from a
member of their own party, I have been
trying to suggest it to them in all shapes
and forms in the past. Perhaps, now
that it comes from the lips of their own
political leader they will pay some at-
tention to it and have some regard to
the high principles expounded in those
couple of paragraphs. The civil servant
is entitled to his own political beliefs,
and he's not supposed to be victimised
because he doesn't subscribe to your
party. He should be a free citizen, once
he does his duty no one has any right
to challenge the particular party he
belongs to or which particular party he
supports, he is entitled to support
whichever party he likes and to have
whatever political beliefs he likes, unless


Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Motion on the

you want us to transfer our loyalties to
Russia, I certainly have no desire to do
that and as long as we remain in this
House, Mr. Speaker, we are going to
press strongly for the independence of
the Civil Servant, the Civil Servant must
be free, to have his own beliefs, to act
according to the dictates of his con-
science, and to support whichever party
he sees fit to support without fear or
victimisation from the party which hap-
pens to be in power for the time being.
I am not going to take up much more
time, Mr. Speaker. The last thing I am
going to do today is to give a further
word of advice to the Honourable Chief
:in:ster. Building schools, Mr. Speaker,
putting up buildings, is not remedying
the educational system as it is. Getting
on the mountain tops and shouting:
"We have put up eleven schools, eleven
buildings" is not getting at the root of
this fever that has beset our educational
system. You can put as many structures
as you like, until you get down to human
beings and consider in all honesty and
sincerity the hardships of the teachers
of our country, you are not beginning to
scratch anywhere near the surface of
this problem. All the structures that you
are building you have got to go far
deeper than that, you have got to go
down and look into the conditions of
service of the people who have got to
carry out your educational policy
throughout the island. No progress is
going to be made in education until we
begin to tackle that problem. It is
pointless to............ (Murmurings)

Why doesn't the Minister learn that I
am speaking on th' adjournment and
until the Speaker tells me that my time
is up I'm entitled to speak on any sub-
ject. Have I got to turn school master?
I am entitled to speak on any subject
that I care to, this is the adjournment
debate. You've been in this House long
enough to understand that.

MR. SPEAKER: I think about fifteen
minutes is gone.

HON. R. M. CATO: Thank you, Mr.
Speaker. The main thinn I wanted is
the assurance, not an assurance, but I
wanted to draw to the attention of this
House and to make the Honourable the
Chief Minister aware of the fact that
he ought to bring this White Paper here
and that he ought to have come here
before going to the London Conference,
and since coming b- :k, and the same
thing applies to the Honourable the
Minister for Trade and Production who
has gone on this most important con-
for-nce. Am I to hear what contribu-
tion he made or what representations
he made on behalf of St. Vincent and
our agriculture, which is bound to be
affected by this step; but we know what
is going to be the effect sooner or later
as far as European Common Market is
concerned. That is all I have to say, Mr.
Speaker, thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: Does anyone desire to
say anything on the adjournment?

HON. C. L. TANNIS: Mr. Speaker, Hon-
ourable Members, I had no intention of
speaking on the adjournment. The
Leader of the Opposition has made- a
very strange point which means quite a
lot to the progress and advancement of
this country, and I am going to attempt
to deal with the principles of a civil
servant in relation to the government.
Of course the Leader of the Opposition,
Mr. Speaker, quoted from what he ca.lle-
"Human Rights," by Mr. Sinanan. I am
not establishing that score, Sir, but .
say this, Mr. Speaker while the Leader
of the Opposition quite clearly said tha,
any pcrs:n or any civil servant can sup-
port or have any particular party prin-
ciple, after an election and a govern-
ment is formed, Mr. Speaker, it is the
duty of every civil servant to swallow


Thursday, 20th July, 1961


any affiliations they might have had, to.
carry out the policy of the government
in power for the time being. And, -Mr.
Speaker, there is no one in here around
this Table who would not say that there
was and there are a few and still exist
a departure from that principle by cer-
tain civil servants. That is so as night
follows day and this Government can
only appeal. The Government has ap-
pealed and continues to appeal to the
civil servants to steer their course, a
clear cut course in carrying out the pol-
icy of the government :for the time
being. We have no power over their
party principles but to carry out for the
time being the policy of the government
in power. The Civil Servant needs to
be independent of political authority,
they must steer clear of misguidance or
taking steps to humbug, interfere or to
delay the policies of the government. No
country, no country. You can have all
the changes as political heads it can't
progress as rapidly as it should if the
persons who are responsible for carrying
out the policies laid down by the Gov-
ernment are meandering and taking
sides. Mr. Speaker I am appealing to
the Opposition not to encourage any
civil servant to delay or misguide the
policy as has been done in the past be-
cause I know, Mr. Speaker that it cuts
both sides and if they ever have the
privilege one day to handle the affairs
of.this country they should steer a clear
cut policy because some civil servants
who may now attempt to undermine the
policy of the government in power may
one day if and when they have the privi-
lege of handling the affairs of the coun-
try would also tend to undermine and
they would have no confidence in that
type of civil servant. Mr. Speaker, it is
necessary, I am appealing, the Chief
Minister has made his appeal, I have
made my appeal that the country must
go forward with the utmost speed if we
are .to keep abreast of the units of the

Motion on the

Federation. Not only keep abreast but
if we are to fill our responsible place in
this independent nation to be. It has
been happening for too long a time, it is
time that the election fever be put asiL~
and get the fullest cooperation that we
must have for the smooth running of a
good government. This matter was made
clear and very clear, even in the teachers
affair. I have seen it and had it not
been for political bias or political ne-
anderings or the teachers had confidence
or the people because what I see is that
the teachers want to believe that the
majority of teachers were fully behind
the moves made by the Teachers Asso-
ciation. There were too many politi-
cians or self-styled politicians on this
teachers' executive and politics came to
play; not only were there politicians or
self-styled politicians on the executive
because the executive made no attempt,
Mr. Speaker to bring to the attention
of all the teachers concerned what they
were striking for. Up to now, Mr.
Speaker, over 50% of the teachers do not
know what they were striking for. Not
even the executive itself is quite clear
of the reason for which it struck. Mr.
Speaker, not only were there politicians
or self-styled politicians of this execu-
tive, but they were guided. Guidance
from the very political leaders, without
following the convention, without fol-
lowing the natural convention; Mr.
Speaker, by which the executive should
have been guided and I am appealing
again, Mr. Speaker, that we are to have
a very clear cut statement of the affairs
of civil servants and teachers, they must
lay hands off political interference.
They have organizations set up not only
in the Civil Service that can deal suc-
cessfuly with their affairs or at least
should deal successfully. ,So it is if the
Teachers Association and their execu-
tives used their good offices to bring to
the notice of Government not only dis-
crepancies in rates of pay as the Leader

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Motion on the

of the Opposition pointed out, but con-
ditions. Up to this date, Mr. Speaker,
the Association has not put forward any
discrepancies towards conditions of ser-
vice and Mr. Speaker, the executive is
supposed to represent this body, yet up
to this date they have not put forward
as a body or brought to the notice of
Government any discrepancy as far as
conditions of service is concerned. They
have not done that. How then can the
Leader of the Opposition sit here and
say that the teachers are dissatisfied
with the conditions? Because, Mr.
Speaker, they have left the Government
and taken to the Opposition. Mr.
Speaker I am very glad that it is the
Leader of the Opposition who really
brought this matter up on the adjourn-
ment. I have taken this time because I
am anxious to air my view not only in
the Legislative Council, I made it clear
in the market square, I made it clear in
other places, that it is time that we put
an end to certain delaying tactics in
certain parts of the Civil Service, that
we can have a smooth running of the
government affairs and I am appealing
to the Civil Servants and the teachers
and all'powers in Government that the
wind of change is blowing over St. Vin-
cent, Mr. Speaker, and we must accept
the changes, whether you like the Minis-
ter at the head of the Government or
not; for the time being Mr. Speaker,
they have been entrusted with the af-
fairs of this Colony and the least they
can do is to cooperate. Mr. Speaker, with
the Government that is in power. In this
country not only civil servants, not only
teachers, but people who hold responsi-
ble positions everywhere in this Colony
and those who have the thought that
they should brush aside the Government
and form another government outside.
There is only one Government that can
operate in one country at a time. We
welcome, Mr. Speaker, we have an Op-
position, and in any democratic coun-

try there must be a healthy Oppo-
sition, but there are times when the
Opposition must know that when the
Government brings forward measures in
the interest of the Colony they are to
support them. But sometimes, on many
occasions, important measures are being
twisted. Important measures are being
twisted to suit the style and pattern of
the Opposition. We have no doubt about
that. Mr. Speaker, it is for the Opposi-
tion to make healthy criticisms in all
matters that may come before the House
and the Government would take them
in good faith. Yet I think we have
reached the stage if this clear cut plan
will not fail. We are going to have no
delays in really getting the best out of
the plans the Government has at its
disposal. Although the Members on the
other side criticise the Government on
the Throne Speech, the Government. has
put into motion a one-year programme,
further developments take place and
under the nine-year programme we have
put forward substantial schemes for a
few developments. At a later season the
Minister of Finance will attend another
conference where other units will meet
to discuss further financial aid and I
am not going to say like the Opposition
Member that we are only having politi-
cal advancement, that is not so. We
made it quite clear that we are not only
going to have political advancement but
substantial financial assistance to de-
velop industry and that is the key note
of the delegation. I must also touch on
a point made by the Member for South
Leeward referring to what it costs to
send a delegation to London. Mr.
Speaker, St. Vincent had a smaller dele-
gation representing than was represent-
ing any unit. It was as small as Mont-
serrat's or even smaller than the dele-
gation that came from Montserrat and
it is misleading for the Member of the
Opposition to get up here stating St.
Vincent should not send any represent-


Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Motion on the

ative, it's a waste of Government funds
and at the same time here was the
same member criticising the Govern-
ment for not carrying a Member of the
the Opposition and that would be adding
to the expenditure. Mr. Speaker, I am
surprised sometimes. I must appeal to
the Member of the Opposition. He ram-
bled this morning, he told us that he
was sent to Jamaica, he was sent all
about to talk about Federation. And so
it is that the Government sent a dele-
gation to attend a most important con-
ference. Mr. Speaker, it is rather sur-
prising at times and very depressing and
you have to sit down and listen to the
Member of the Opposition criticising.
Now in the same debate he said one
thing and then supported it before he
got to the end of his speech. It is un-
fair, it is unjust for the Member of the
Opposition to behave like that. I know
full well, Mr. Speaker, that the expen-
diture for the delegation was money well
spent. And if the Opposition had formed
the Government a delegation would have
gone in any case. Mr. Speaker, it is the
intention of the Government to give the
Opposition a change of a full-fledged
debate in this House on the report of
the London Conference. We are going
to institute a full-fledged debate on the
subject, Mr. Speaker. Not only that, like-
wise .the Conference of advanced con-
stitution for the Windwards and Lee-
wards to give the House the opportunity
to have a full debate and Government
is not trying to bypass the Opposition
Members of the House. But the oppor-
tunity will be given to this House for full
debate at a later date. Mr. Speaker, I
must thank you for allowing me to
carry on and I notice the Opposition are
looking at the clock. I do not want to
take up too much.of your time but it is
necessary for as-toface the issue of the
day, let us put aside the little petty dif-
ferences, forget the election fever and
let the qWutry unite with a common

purpose, everybody putting his full quota
towards the future advancement and to
assist this country in putting ourselves
in a strong financial position and form
herself as one of the key units in an
independent West Indies.

HoN. C. deB. BARNARD: Mr. Speaker,
there is one problem that is worrying
me very considerably and also a number
of people to-whom I have spoken, and
that is the question of freedom of move-
ment. I cannot imagine a Federation
in which there is not freedom of move-
ment. It would be the same thing as
being unable to go from Sussex to Surrey
or Yorkshire to Lancashire, and I am
sure that this House would appreciate
a statement from the Chief Minister
that when the opportunity arises that
he would press his very best endeavours
for freedom of movement for this fed-
eration. I am not asking the Chief Min-
ister that he should smash up the Fed-
eration, as he indicated in his speech,
for the sake of freedom of movement;
but I do think that short of that, every
possible thing should be done to ensure
that this Federation has complete free-
dom of movement. When I go to Trini-
dad, Mr. Speaker, I am asked all sorts
of questions. I'm asked where I'm stay-
ing, if I brought any money with me,
and how soon I'm going again. Gentle-
men, if I'm asked that, you can imagine
what the poor man in the street who is
going on some trivial business is asked.
It's very insulting, Mr. Speaker, not only
that, but I do think there are more
important factors attached to this ques-
tion of freedom of movement. I am
sure that I will have the backing of this
House and in fact everybody outside this
House, that we should ask the Chief
Minister when the time arises to use his
very best endeavours to allow us to have
freedom of movement throughout the


Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Motion on the

HON. H. F. YOUNG: A Daniel has come
to judgement. Mr. Speaker, I have just
heard the gentleman on the left, the
Second Nominated Member. It might
surprise this House that I think I know
this gentleman quite well from public
office as President of the Arrowroot Asso-
ciation for a number of years, I hap-
pened to be a member of that Board
representing the small growers and I
must say that he was always outspoken
and took his place here and there and
never got arrogant with anyone and
though we were only one or two or three
at the time, he always tried to give of
his best and I am now satisfied that his
maiden speech this evening in this
House is one which is very justified.

But I go on to say the poor civil ser-
vants cannot defend themselves and I
want to prove its cause and effect. An
I want as the Member for the Grena-
dines has said that we should stop petti-
ness and start work towards progress.
And if we oppose here, we do not oppose
to show you up politically. But politics
like every profession has some dirty
things in it and it might be a question
that you are a doctor, you're a Christ-
ian, you could be a good doctor, if you
only want money lives will be lost, if
you are a cheap politician and you only
want to catch votes, one day the votes
are going to catch up with you. There's
no man today, Mr. Speaker, who shoul.l
not say: I'm sorry. Who can be so
right? Who is this Messiah and in all
our different views here towards the
people it is good for the Opposition and
the Government and myself to know
that in working towards a nation like
this a set of people without clothes,
without education, without money; it it
a very difficult problem to find priority.
It is a very difficult problem to know
where to start sometimes and I am going
to quote lest the Chief Minister ask me
what I'm quoting, and that is the "Par-

liamentary Government", the Mother of
Parliaments, and it says this: Page 6 -
"Though members of opposing parties
might hold quite different views and
express themselves forcibly in a debate,
yet in general views their personal rela-
tionships are friendly and they acknowl-
ege each other's sincerity of purpose."
Each other can stick to his purpose and
his different views, it is a great thing,
it's like a religion. We hear of the Hin-
dus having their Leaders and we have
the Mohomedans with the Quorum and
you have the Christians with their Bible
and when you examine the whole thing,
Mr. Speaker, they all have a Godhead.
And the Christian principle is love. Love
your neighbour as yourself. Though
they all follow different principles of
religion, though half of the world are
not Christians yet you will find the
entire principle that the Godhead is the
supreme boss. And there are several
different Christian religions, Seventh
Day Adventists, Anglican, Wesleyans,
and they take different views, but Christ
crucified is eventually the rule. But
what if somebody says you are wrong,
search your conscience and find out.
And great is the man who can say he
is wrong. And I will go back to the
point. The Civil Servants were trained
not so long ago, trained to observe the
new Constitution from a Government
of assent to a Government of consent.
You still have the old civil servant who
was trained under tha4 old Colonial
policy honour and respect to the Ad-
ministrator or to the particular Head
of Department. It is similar to a child
in Venezuela who speaks Spanish be-
cause Spanish is the language. Now that
this big change has taken place it isn't
necessarily that he is a civil servant he
might be educated. He has not been
following the political trend. But he was
trained in and it takes a politician with
tolerance also to remember that and
you couldn't get that chap overnight to


Thursday, 20th July, 1961


realize that this is a ministerial status.
And how many of the Ministers know
their business. Would I know what to
say here today if in 1951 the people did
not put me here? Would I have the
knowledge of what are the statutory
rules and orders? Could I have dis-
cussed parliamentary procedure if I had
not come in here? And that in ten
years I did not know as much as I know
now? To get back to the Member for
the Grenadines, what are we howling
about? But the poor civil servant who
has to carry out the duties of the Minis-
ter even nowadays, he will have to take
your orders while he was trained into a
procedure and that procedure of govern-
ment with its fixed ABCDEFG, I know
many Ministers around this Table ask
themselves the question, they have gone
out to political meetings and as no one
can check back on them, by virtue Of
being the big boss my secretary couldn't
ask me where I had been if I was a
Minister. It would be insulting to ask
that. But it is my duty as a leader to
tell him if I'm going out, you can find
me at the Olive's Hotel or at Mr. X.Y.
because when somebody comes to see you
if you are a public officer he will know
where to find you. Then you first have
to show that respect. But when you get
Ministers disrespecting the civil ser-
vants, Ministers taking upon themselves
to take away a road drivers' tools and
the very Head of Department not know-
ing. In the Police Force the Corporal
respects the sergeant, they might be
friends but when an order is passed
they carry it out. There might be the
old civil servant who has his own way
but I must say that some of the pro-
cedure is being short circuited. And as
we go forward with this new constitu-
tion, we find on this white paper, Inde-
pendence next year, we find that the
Chief Minister will be termed Premier,
he will then have the control of the
Police under his portfolio. Would it be

Motion on the

wise because of that for a Minister to
fire any member of the force because he
has the power of the department in his
portfolio? Would that be morally right?
So it cuts both ways. The poor civil
servant by virtue of his office because
he can be jeopardised by the politicians,
sometimes he is forced to toe the line
and ordinarily he cannot defend him-
self. Then you will have like everybody
else, a fellow who wants a lot of money
and doesn't want to work. And Mr.
Speaker, I can tell you this that it is
not easy. This new period that we are
undergoing calls for a lot of thinking
and a lot of give and take. We are ad-
vancing politically and we are going
back in every respect. How many of us
must say: if I had taken my wife's ad-
vice I would have been better off. But
because I'm the boss having done some-
thing wrong I'm still doing the quarrel-
ling and you set your whole house in
ruin. Mr. Speaker, I would like to end
up on a good note and I would say this
that I'm not going to get back in any
quarrel. The teachers and the civil ser-
vants are very important and without
them we cannot carry on as the Member
for the Grenadines said. There might
be a bad egg here and there that has
to be weeded out. But the general prin-
ciple, that is why the Constitution as
you would have noticed, Sir, they have
formed a Civil Service Commission. They
have taken it completely out of politics
and no Member of the House has a
right to be a Member of that Commis-
sion. But on the other hand by virtue
of the connections and by virtue of the
department run by a Minister the Civil
Servant is still indirectly under the boss.
Lots of kids had to go into the sea be-
fore they learnt to swim, lots of boys
smashed a fender before they learnt to
drive a car. This is the time when we
are smashing fenders, this is the time
some of us havq to get drowned but for
God's sake don't take it out of the un-

Thursday, 20th July, 1961

Debate on the

fortunate civil servants, or the Police,
or the man in the road. Do not inter-
fere with his livelihood. I'm sorry the
Member for North Leeward is absent
and when you send to stop a poor road
driver who is 64 years of age I would
like to investigate, and stop him be-
cause -

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem-
ber's time has expired.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Let us examine
ourselves and let us get together.

HON. H. A. HAYNES: Mr. Speaker,
Honourable Members, seeing that this is
the first occasion that I am going to
speak on the adjournment, I think it is
my duty, Sir, to offer you my congratu-
lations as being the first elected Speaker
in this House. I have known you, Sir,
for the past ten years and find you to
be well known to all Members of this
House. Therefore, I am confident, Sir,
that you will steer the ship of state on
to a successful port always. I must now
give you the. assurance, Sir, that I will
endeavour always to conduct my debate
in this House with decorum and with
due respect, Sir.

The Honourable Member for East St.
George. attacked me this morning. I
would like to take first things first. The
Honourable Member for East St. George
said that he is not satisfied with the
unsatisfactory reply to his first question
this morning by the Honourable Chief
Minister. I am satisfied that the Hon-
ourable Chief Minister gave him a very
satisfactory answer. What he could
have said if he wanted to say anything,
Mr. Speaker, was that it was unsatis-
factory not to have had a statutory
meeting during thq absence of the Chief
Minister because as he said when the
Chief Minister left there was an acting
Chief Minister, there was an acting Min-

ister of Communications and Works and
there was an acting Attorney General.
I held discussions on the subject with
His Honour the Administrator and in
turn pointed out in vieW of the p6sitiori
whether or not they would like to have
a statutory meeting and whether the
remaining Members of Government were
quite prepared to have it; but then it
was felt that one of the main motions
on the agenda would be a debate on
the Throne Speech it was not felt to be'
right that this could be held. Now as
an elected Government, elected by the
people of St. Vincent, we hold the view
that we are quite capable to represent
them at conferences that are called. I
attended with the Chief Minister for the
island of St. Vincent the Conference of
the European Common Market. St. Vin-
cent in common with the other Wind-
ward Islands and many other islands
where such agricultural products as
bananas, arrowroot, cocoa, nutmegs, are
grown. The only agricultural product
that we are singular for in St. Vincent
is arrowroot. At that Conference it was
agreed that it was purely a matter for
the British Government to decide
whether they would negotiate with the
Common Market or with the Federal
and we made it quite clear to the dele-
gation of representatives of the British
Government that if and when they so
desired to join the Common Market we
must become associated members, we
must be given the necessary attention
for our industry. Many of the points
have already been taken care of by the
Chief Minister and the Honourable
Member for the Grenadines; but there
are a few points still that I must, clarify
because I feel that it is the bounden
duty for Members of the Opposition
when coming to this Honourable House
to quote the correct figures. There: are
three or four I must clarify. Firstly, the
Honourable Member for South Wind-
ward said that the Canouan Collecting


Thursday, 20th July, 1961


Station was a white elephant, and cost
the government seventy-five thousand
dollars. These figures are incorrect.
Mr. Speaker, those figures are incorrect.
The original scheme was given by a con-
tract for the sum of forty-one thousand
dollars for the building of the collecting
station. He also quoted that the ship-
ment of bananas now as compared pre-
viously was reduced from seventy-five
thousand bunches to twenty-nine thous-
and bunches. Mr. Speaker, that ship-
ment there was a delay shipment. One
shipment weekly each with thirty-five
and thirty-eight thousand stems, these
shipments have just passed here; due to
dry weather we only shipped twenty-
nine thousand bunches but we will soon
come up to thirty-nine thousand

The Honourable Member for East St.
George referred to Ministers' salaries.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, may I
suggest that the Honourable Member
take a little more pain in making his
notes. I made no reference whatsoever
to the salary of any Minister nor any
Member of this House.

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, on
a point of correction. This morning
there was a little talk, well we passed
that we didn't go into details and my
Honourable friend the Minister for
Trade and Production has just told us
that the Canouan Station did not cost
seventy-five thousand dollars. Here it
is in this expenditure seventy-five thous-
and six hundred and twenty dollars to
cover cost of a fish collecting station in
MR. SPEAKER: Pages 4 and 5, Item 7 of
Additional Provisions.
HON. H. A. HAYNEs: Mr. Speaker, Sir,
I said that the figures of seventy-five
thousand dollars quoted by the Member

Debate on the
for South Windward when referring to
collecting station that collecting
station was given on contract and was
built for the sum of forty-one thousand
dollars, but the scheme,' Sir, the build-
ing of the collecting station cost
seventy-five thousand dollars.

Mr. Speaker, it was said that the
building of schools were not the only
thing to encourage education, but Sir,
I would like to say this that you cannot
accept that. Honourable elected Mem-
bers go out to encourage not only the
teachers but the children of the school
to disrespect Ministers of the Govern-
ment. No matter how many schools you
get .........

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, would
you please ask the Honourable Member
to withdraw that remark, a remark
which has been directed against Hon-
ourable elected Members. Let him bring
a substantive motion but not make these
ridiculous and stupid remarks

MR. SPEAKER: I think the Honourable
elected Member would have to take cer-
tain steps and bring a substantive
motion as I told the Members of the
Opposition this morning.

HoN. H. A. HAYNES: Mr. Speaker,
Honourable Members, this is common
knowledge. I would say that who the
cap fits draw the string.

HON. R. M. CATO: Mr. Speaker, please
insist that this Member must abide by
the ruling of the House.

MR. SPEAKER: I think that Honour-
able Members should realize that if
there are any allegations of that nature
they should be by a substantive motion.
I have spoken to the Honourable Mem-
bers on this subject this morning al-

Thursday, 20th July, 1961


HON. H. A. HAYNES: I will abide by
the ruling, Mr. Speaker. I would like
to conclude by saying this that the
majority of the people in St. Vincent
irrespective of what the Members of the
opposition come here and try to say are
satisfied that this Government has been
well and is making progress. Not only
the people in St. Vincent are satisfied
but the members of the country who
have travelled abroad and have come
back to their native country.

HON. A. C. G. ALLEN: Mr. Speaker,
speaking on the adjournment tonight
mention was made by the Opposition
about civil servants. Nevertheless, Sir,
all that I would like to say is that the
Opposition today has been quoted and
has confirmed itself, indeed and if they
of the Opposition would like to make it
clear that one day they will take over
or walk across this floor to take this
seat they will have to change their atti-

Mr. Speaker, I think it was said by the
Honourable Member for East St. George
in reference to the civil servants, Sir,
he said that the civil servants should
act according to the dictates of their
consciences. Mr. Speaker with all due
respect to the civil servants as human
beings, I do not feel it is enough to say
that the civil servant should act accord-
ing to the dictates of his conscience.
That would not be to the best interest
and proper working of the mechanics of
this country. I, Mr. Speaker, would
agree that any civil servant has a right
to his own political leanings and aspira-
tions but like the Honourable Member
for South Leeward said just now that in
the Police Force the privates respect the
sergeant and so on, but the Police Force,
Mr. Speaker, is a recognized organisa-
tion, and whether the men respect each
other outside the compound and in pri-
vate life, I do not know. Are the civil
servants willing to act as the policemen

Debate on the

within the compound and be. impartial
in the performance of their duties. We
on this side, Mr. Speaker, I am quite
sure have no intention of victimising
civil servants or anyone who carry out
the duties of this Government, but it
must be made abundantly clear, Sir,
that if this Government must go along
the straight and narrow path always
mindful that the Opposition is there to
keep us on our toes it is only right that
we in turn, Mr. Speaker, should see that
the civil servants read up the business
and attend to it properly.
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. Speaker, I
now take the opportunity of speaking on
the adjournment. A remark was made
here about a man that the Minister of
Social Services got up here. That re-
mark was a challenge because it is true,
Mr. Speaker, when I speak here I am
speaking of a fact, that occurred in the
country. I need no substantive motion.
The question is that the whole of the
civil service is out of joint and are
guided by politics that is why we have
been making statements all the time.
This country was over-staffed by the
people of the other islands who should
be able to carry on the administration,
but they make it worse, they talked about
freedom of movement, fight to death for
freedom of movement, while these things
took place in this country. There was
a remark made that certain things are
taking place, a lot of eye servants in the
service, it is disheartening the remark
which was made that the Government in
power did nothing in the circumstances
when the Minister is not here to defend
himself, when teachers go out to see to
it and an incident occurred at a school
I heard that the teachers put for-
ward reports to the Education De-
partment. It happened recently since
I turned my back from here the
whole set of people, agents of politi-
cal cliques. And in fairness to Ministers
of the Government of this country for
the last three years had perfect coopera-

Thursday, 20th July, 1961


Debate on the

tion. I am prepared to run a Govern-
ment smoothly, but it is passing strange
that as soon as I turn my back an unde-
clared state of emergency has arisen. It
is unfair to make political agitation
when the Members of Government are
away, in the absence of the Minister for
Social Services and Education. That is
what is taking place, a terrible conspira-
cy. It began on elections because we have
people who were not satisfied with the
Undermining. I told the Secretary of
State for the Colonies I have reported it
to him that this will not go on any
longer because I was gentlemanly
enough to work on the matter and it is
surprising what was said at that Colo-
nial Office and the respect and deference
of the Secretary of State there. And now
these people encourage civil servants to
undermine this Government. When the
Member for South Leeward spoke about
the state of the children and juvenile
delinquency. Just as my back was
turned it was a signal for an undeclared
state of emergency in the country. No
Government can run smoothly like that.
It is time that the crown colony power
of the powers vested in the hands of the
people administering the government in
the Colony should be recognized and this
political rancour put aside. It would
amaze you to know what is happening in
the Civil Service, I cannot allow this
political intrigue. It is unfair to any
country that the civil service should be
left to undermine the Government. That
attitude should be stopped. People are
to be given work and come from George-
MR. SPEAKER: I would like to state
that that matter does not specifically
deal with the subject. The Honourable
Chief Minister will note that there is
a case before the Court on certain facts
that have now been quoted and'in that
case it cannot be gone into further.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: I agree with you
Mr. Speaker, I did not know of the case
I knew nothing at all about it. Those
who are now trying to upset this peace-
ful country will reap their reward and
this type of behaviour being encouraged
in this country is going to lead to serious
consequences and I am sounding a
warning in this Legislative Council.,

Now we spoke of the delays in consti-
tutional changes. We have a white pa-
per with amendments to the Constitu-
tion of the Windward and Leeward Is-
lands. The Secretary of State for the
Colonies wisdom brought the date for
the colonies implementation of this con-
stitutional complete internal self govern-
ment even above that of Jamaica, Trini-
dad and even Barbados, the implement-
ation of this advanced dominion self
government proposal. (inaudible)

I am satisfied, Sir, that I have sounded
a note of warning. It was spoken about
civil servants and pupil teachers and I
am taking note of these things, Mr.
Speaker. When we spoke of victimising
people there werg those who went out to
oppose Ministers. I have the full sup-
port of the officer administering the gov-
ernment. I have spoken in this Legisla-
tive Council and I took it to the proper
quarter because it is unfair that I have
done all in my power to stop this mis-
leading of the country. It is all well and
good to make a jest sometimes but it
has turned out like little children play-
ing with matches.

HON. L. C. LATHAM: Mr. Speaker, I am
surprised to hear the Chief Minister
bawling, bawling ...

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem-
ber has a perfect right to speak.

HON. L. C. LATHAM: Mr. Speaker, some-
time ago there.was a condition in the

Thursdayv 200, r

Public Works Department a gang of men
went in to look for work and one police
-48 .1-96RrYing6 to preserve law and or-
der and they scuffed him l
Sa highfall, Mr._-pc .n-d -gave

KER: As I said, this cannot
t present.

AT But, Mr. Speaker,
law a de be preserved
throughout h rld. I can't
Understand why lif H sister went
to the Public Work

point of explanation, I mi
takably clear in my speech th peo.1
pie were brought up from all the
country and assembled not on in
structions. :

MR. SPEAKER: I would like all Honour.
able Members to know that this affair
that took place in the Public Works yard,
or whatever transpired there is a matter
before the Court and I have stopped the
Chief Minister and any other Member
must refrain from bringing the details

HON. L. C. LATHAM: Mr. Speaker, the
Minister for Social Services went to
Stubbs hiring people, put a whole lot of
people, 92 people to work on Stubbs
Bridge during election time, she tra-
velled on the Public Works Jeep up and
down ...

HON. MRS. I. I. JOSHUA: On a point of
order, Mr. Speaker . .

MR. SPEAKER: If there is any matter of
grave irregularity done by a Member it
is a substantive motion.

---I> -


*", JULy, 1961 198

Debate on the
HOwe L. C. LATHAM: Yes, Mr. Speaker,
we intend to move a substantive motion
on those matters. I read in the Trinidad
Guardian that the f Minister wenad
Vincent .ief Mi e to
giving trouble. Nothing is wrong in St-
Vincent, Mr. Speaker, the people are a
most loyal peaceful people in the West
Indies for anywhere you turn in St. Vin-
cent you see a Church. That's why the
Chief Minister is able to turn them and
twist them like that. During the elec-
tion campaign he gave a lot of people
work and as soon as the campaign was
over what happened in April, there was
no work everybody was at home and dis-

MR. SPEAKER: AS I said if there is any-
g irregular it should be by a sub-
ive motion.

L. C. LATHAM: Yes, Mr. Speaker,
position wants to make it clear
ernment block, more so to the
ter that we stand here to
kee' n their toes. The Opposi-
tion ding that the Government
work We are demanding that
we wo here and be abused by
the Chi er. We are here to see
that proli' order is maintained and
that no insulting words are used. The
three of us here have as many votes as
all of them put together, we have a
mandate from the people.

Question put and agreed to-
"that the House do now adjourn
sine die".

House adjourned accordingly at 8.30