Citation
The official gazette

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Title:
The official gazette
Creator:
Barbados
Place of Publication:
Bridgetown, Barbados Published by authority
Publisher:
[s.n.]
Publication Date:
Language:
English
Physical Description:
v. : ill. ; 33-42 cm.

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Subjects / Keywords:
Law -- Periodicals -- Barbados ( lcsh )
Politics and government -- Periodicals -- Barbados ( lcsh )
Genre:
serial ( sobekcm )
periodical ( marcgt )

Notes

General Note:
Caption title.
General Note:
Supplements issued for some of the numbers.

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University of Florida
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12594829 ( OCLC )
AFC6434 ( NOTIS )

Full Text













VOL. XCII.


PUBLISHED BY


AUTHORITY


BRIDGETOWI4, BARBADOS, 3RD JANUARY, 1957


NOTICE No. 1

MEETING OF LEGISLATURE

The House of Assembly will meet on Tuesday 8th January, 1957 at 3 o'clock p.m. A OTICE No. 2
GOVERNMENT NOTICES Additional Aide-de-Camp

RETIREMENT
Captain C. E. Neblett, BIarbados Regiment, additional Aide-de-Camp to His Excellency the C(overnor, with effect from 6th November, 1956. (M.P. 5053)

Personal Appointment
His Excellency the Governor has been pleased to appoint Lieutenant L. G. Quintyne, Barbados Regiment, as an additional Aide-de-Camp, with effect from 6th November. 1956. (M.P. 5053)
NOTICE No. 3
LIQUOR LICENSE NOTICFS

The application of John Joseph Smith, shopkeeper, of St. Matthias Road, Christ Church;, within. District "A", for permission to sell Spirits, Malt Liquors, &c., at a board and shingled shop, attached to residence at St. Matthias Road, Christ Church. Dist. "A".


Dated this 2nd day of January, 1957. To:- Miss M. E. BOURNE,
Police Magistrate, Dist. "A".
JOHN J. SMITH, Applicant.
N.B.-This application will be considered at a Licensing Court to be held at Police Court, District "A", on Monday, the 14th day of January, 1957, at 11 o'clock a.m.
M. E. BOURNE,
Police Magistrate, Dist. "A".

The application of Goulbourne Alonza Webster, hopkeeper, of Rock Hall, St. Philip, for permission to sell Spirits, Malt Liquors, &c., at a wall building at No. 39 Roebuck Street, City.
Dated this 3rd day of Janualry, 1957. To:-C. A. ROCHEFORD, Esq.,
Ag. Police Magistrate, Dist. "A".
WILFRED SCOTT, For Applicant,
N.B.-This application will be considered at a Licensing Court to be held at Police Court, District "A". on Monday, the 14th day of January, 1957, at 11 o'clock, a.m.
C. A. ROCHEFORD, Ag. Police Magistrate, Dist. "A",

The application of Edwin Franklin, shop keeper of Thomas Gap, Westbury Road, St Michael, for permission to sell Spirits, Malt Liquors, &c., at: a board and shingled shop at Thomas Gap, Westbury Road, St. Michael.
Dated this 2nd day of January, 1957. To:-MISS M. E. BOURNE,
Police Magistrate, Dist. "A".
E. FRANKLIN,
Applicant.
N.B.-This application will be considered at a Licening Court to be held at Police Court, District "A", on Monday the 14th day of January 1957 at 11 o'clock, a.m.
M. E. BOU3NE, Police Magistrate, Dist. "A".


3awl ?n









OFICA GZET-JNUR 3 15


LIQUOR LICENSE NOTICES-Cont'd
The application of Ralph Waring Greaves, Shopkeeper, Fairfield + Road, Tudor Bridge, St. Michael, for permission to sell Spirits, MAalt LiquLo, &c., at a wooden and galvanized shop situated at Water Hall Land, Eagle Hall, St. Michael.
Dated this 2nd day of January, 1957. ,To:-, Miss M. E. BOURNE,
Piotice Magi'Atrate, Dist. "A."
RALPH WARING GREAVES,
Applicant.
N.B.-This application will be considered at a Licensing Court to be held at Police Court, District, "A," on Monday the 14th day, of January 1957 at 11 o'clock, a.m.
Miss M1. E. BOURNE, Police Magistrate, Dist. "A."

The application of Olga Cummins, Shopkeeper of 1st Ave., Grazettes New Land, St. Mjichael, for permission to sell Spirits, Malt Liquors, &c., at a [wall and galvanized shop attached to residence at 1st Ave., Grazettes New Land, St. Michael.
Dated this 2nd day of January, 1957. To:- Miss M. E,. BOURNE,
Police Magigtrate, Dist. "A."
OLGA CUMMINS,
Applicant.
N.B.-This application will be considered at a Licensing Court to be held at Police Court, District "A," on Monday the 14th day of January 1957 at 11 o'clock, a.m.
M. E. BOURNE,
Police Magistrate. Dist. "A."

The application of Holman Bullen, shopkeeper of Lodge Hill, St. MLichael for permission to sell Spirits, Malt Liquors, .&c.,' at @ board and shingled shop, at Lodge Hill, St. Michael.
Dated this 2nd day of January, 1957. To :--Miss M. E. BOURNE,
Police Magistrate, Dist. "A".
RANDOLPH BULLET, for Holman Bullen.
Applicant.
N.B.-This application will be consider at a Licensing Court to ,be held at Police Court, District "A," on Monday the 14th day of January 1957 at 11 o'clock a.m.
M. E. BO URNE,
Police Magistrate, Dist. "A"

NoTICE No. 4
S NOTICE
IS HER EB.Y GIVEN that CLARENCE
FITZHER BERT IItAM BLIN of Club M organ Gap, Clapham, in the parish of St. Mieh'ael, in this sland, has petitioned His Honour the acting Chief Judge of the Court of Ordinary of this Island for a grant of letters of Administration of the r eal and personal estate and effects in this island of


Ismay Arlene Hamblin, late of ClaPham in the
said parish of Saint Michael and island aforesaid 'who died in the said island on the 5th day of November, 1956 intestate.
AND NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that an u:r parte application for such letters will be made at the sitting of the Court of Ordinary on Friday, the 18th day of January 1957 at 11 o'clock in the forenoon.
Dated the 3rd day of January, 1957.
YEA3RWOOD & BOYCE,
Petitioner's ProcLors.


NOTICE No. 5
INCOME TAX NOTICE

Notice is hereby given in accordance with section 24, Income Tax Act, 1921, that income tax returns are required from
(a) all resident companies whether incorporated or unincorporated, sojicties, trusts or persons engaged in any trade,
business or profession,;
(b) all non-resident companies whether incorporated or unincorporated, societies, trusts, or persons engaged in any trade, business or profession or having
income arising in this island;
(c) all owners of land or property whether
al taxable income has accrued during
the: past year or not;
(d) all married men who are living with
or wholly maintaining their wives whose income including the wife's income is
$1,300 or over for the past year;
(e) all other persons whose income is
$720 or over for the past year.
Forms of return may be obtained from the I13land Revehue Department, Bridge Street, AFTER THE 1ST DAY OF JANUARY, 1957,
and the forms duly filled in must be delivered to me on or before the following respective dates:
1. Returns of persons whose books wer6
closed oii the 31st, day of December, 1956,
on or before the 31st ddy of March, 1957.
2. Returns of persons whose principal place
of business; is not situate in the island oA
or before tle 30th day of June, 1957.
3. Returns of all other persons, on or Y efore
the 31st day of January, 1957.
N. D. OSBORNE,
Acting Commissioner of Inland Revenue.
FORMS to be usedUse WHITE form if you are in receipt of emolunients which will be subject to Pay As
You Earn deductions.
Use PIN( form (a) if you are engaged in trade or business as a Proprietor or Partner.
(b) if return is submitted on 'behalf of 'a iniited liability COMPANY.
Use GREEN form in all other cases. Note:
(1) Any person failing to niake his return
-within the due date will be liable to a fine not exceeding $480.00 and not less than
$,9.60.
(2) Except in eases, where the owner of the
income is incapacitated and/or the permission of the Coinnissioner has been obtained to signature by another person, the form must be signed by the person
whose income is returned.


(3) Either the husband or the wife may request the Commissioner by notice: in writing on or before the date prescribed for the delivery of the return to divide the tax and issue separate assessment notices.
(4) Any person who is not domiciled in this
island and who, although not having resided here for six months during 1956, would still be regarded as resident for taxation purposes, may claim, on or before the date prescribed for the delivery of the return,
to be charged as a non-resident.


I


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


JAN-UARY- 3, 1957










ejNTR 97OFIIL GZTE


NOTICE

The following accounts in the Barbados Go vernlnent Saving Bank not having had any transaction for over ten years, notice is hereby given that unless claims are established on or before the 30th June, 1957, these accounts will be dealt with as required by Section 22 of the Savings Bank Act, 1914 (1914-3).


ACCOUNT


Alkins, Clarence O'Neale Armstrong, Ja-mes Hurd Alleyne, Theodore, tr. Maggie Jones Arnistrong, Gerald, tr. Elvira Armstrong Barker, Edward, tr. Olga E. Barker . Barbados Girl Guides No. 5 Companiy . Brathwaite, Henry Martin Babb, Fitz Herbert St. C. Collinore, Helena., tr. Simeon Collyinore Corbin, Hyacinth N., tr. Osbourne Corbin Cummins, Helen Joyce .
Cumberbatch, Livingstone Cox, Hubert St. Clair Chandler, Undine Emtage, Lawrence "May Briggs Edwards,. Annie, tr. Olga. Edwards F ield, Enily .
Folikes, Cecil . .
Foster, Carlos P. ltoad, Eugene, tr. Lolita load. Ifill, Eleanor, tr. Etheline Ifill Fill, Oliver, tr. Ruth Leslie Jervis, Stanley Jones, Louise, tr. Albert Jones Johnson, Susan


A '1655 A 2213 A 2890 A 3572 B 4127 B 5650 B 8021 B 11001 C 5790 C -6988 C 6998 C 7266 C 7405 C 7742 E 1146 E 1452 F 1656 F 1958 F 2565 H 4802 I 417 I '425 J 203 J 1035 J 1226 K 1402 K 1818 K 1864 K 1889 K 1980 L 2606 L 3224 L 3227 M 5035 N 1403 P 1634

P 3183 P 3397 P 3681 P 3697 I 944 R 1779 R 2405 S 7539 S 7713


Old Nco.


New No.

193 344 627
1004 Z067 2381 3237 4854 8294 8895 8899 9019 9094 9296 12304 12448
13150 13270 13582 34034 33353 33354 37415 37463 37492 38835 39025 39054 39072 39130 39954 40258 402,59 42137 60353 61026

61565 61662 61815 .61825 62814 62983 63201 66134 66226 68328 68655 6965.6 70078 70'173 70220 70283 70348 70641 71123 71233


96.38 95.15 920.01
6.78 60'.33 371.72 195.20


1.978.30 7.87


. iaitt Iris Ursula, tr. George Taitt . . 1,357.13
ihomias, James Lawrence, tr. Sarah Thomas . 15.26
- Wasoii, George, tr.Woodroffe Wason .U. 347.19
AWatson, Claire Dorothy . . . 24.51
Wilkinson, Kenneth, tr. Mabel Wilkinson . 17.09
Webster, Henry Lisle or-- Phyllis M. Webster 41.05
Wood, Rupert, tr. Ida Wood . . . 7.15
Webster, Maggie, tr. Allan Webster . . 8.92
Walcott, Clinton Theodore . . 9.04
. Williams, Seon tr. Ethel Williams . . 305.:-5
Whitehall, Darnley . . . . 134.49


Mi. W. CLARKE,
Manager.
14th December, 1956.


Squires, Lionel .
S-mall, Irene, tr. Sanmel E. Small


T
T
W
W
W
W
W
W
W
W
W


1594 2542 274 3539 3835 3955 4109 4280 4885 5809 6008


OFFICIAL GAZETTE.


JANUARY oo. 1957


I


$ C.
10.04 13.34 33.62 16.73 18.8P 33.89 797.62 6.59 6.58 9.52
38.51 18.39 27.40 7.86 24.68 17.86 1,938-11 121.42 127.40 836.93 156.50 35.30 62.05 64.11 2,041.23
40.92
9.90
20.33 205.87 402.88 32.18 241.65 42.77 88.86 6.54
242.21


King, Leslie Evans or /-Edna King . .
King, Dorothea E. or /-Elise H husbands Knowles, Gertrude R. TAT.
King, Austin, tr. Iris Clarke King, Ethel .
Legall, Ralph Archibald Lovell, Amy . .
Lowe, Pearly .
Maynard, Gladstone Clairmonte N ewton, Ena . .
Phillips, Lucilla, tr. Lewis G. Phillips & Beatrice
Mann . . .
Puckerin, Ashton Fitz G., tr. Josephene Knight Parris, Ivy Irene, tr. Shirley A. Parris Phillips, Joseph Ri. Pilgrim, Elsie Isalie Rice, Joseph, tr. Martha Rice . Reid, George McDonald Rodrigues, Isabel Melania .












RETURN OF RAINFALL AT CENTRAL AND DISTRICT POLICE STATIONS FOR THE WEEK ENDED 31ST DECEMBER, 1956
cz.,

STATION]i7 c

EH CI' U)

Central Station . . . . 03 .03 .07 .03 - 1 .District "A" Station . .05 .04 .02 .02 .13
"B" ,, . . . .02 1 - .15 .20 .03 .04 - .44

Four Roads Station - .03 07 .02 .04 .16
District "D" Station . . - - .11 -- .09 - .03 .23
-. 0. 07 .06 .04 -- .17
Crab Hill Station . . .- I - - .02 - .02 .04
District "F" Station . . . - .15 -.- .15
Belleplaine Station . . - .04 .01 .06 .03 .03 .17
Holetown . . . - .08 .08 - .04 .06 .01 .27

AVERAGE . . 02 .07 .03 .03 .01 .01 .17


Police Headquarters, Bridgetown, Dated 3rd January, 1957.


R. A. STOUTE, Commissioner of Police,


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


JANUARwY 3,7 1957











Subsidiary~ Legislation Supplement No. 1

Supplement to Official Gazet te N'o. 1 dated the 3rd Jan., 1957

L.N. 1
POWER OF DISALLOWANCE'


His Excellency the Governor has been notified that the Power of Disallowance will not be exercised in respect of the undermentioned Act:


No. Year Short Title


21 1956 (No. 2) Act, 1956.
The Income Tax (Amendment)

40 1956 Offences against the-Person
(Amendment) Act, 1956.i

41 1956 The Customs Tariff (Amendment)
(No. 5) Act, 195645 1956 The Customs Tariff (Amendment)
(No. 6) Act, 1956.
47
1956 The Customs Tariff (Amendment)
(M.P 504/T3) I (No. 7) Act, 1956.
(M.P. 2080/T. 1)
(M.P. 2020/S . 5/T .1) (M.P. 1087/T. 1)
(M.P. 1008/S . 16/T .1)


L.N. 2
Defence Regulations, 1939


ORDER MADE BY THE COMPETENT AUTHORITY UNDER REGULATION 50 OF THE DEFENCE
REGULATIONS, 1939


This Order may be cited as the Defence (Control of Drug and Patent and Proprietary Medicine Prices) (Amendment) Order, 1956, No. 5.
2. The Schedule to the Defence (Control of Drug and Patent and Proprietary Medicine Prices) Order, 1942 as. onitained i ipe ontrol of Prices(Defe-nce) (Ame ndA-


ITEM UNIT OF SALE MAXIMUM
RETAIL PRICE


Aspirin
(Bayer's) . Bottle of 100 tablets $1 .12


Made by inc the aforesaid. Competent Authority this thirty-first day of December, one thousand nine hundred and fifty-six.
P. A. BISHOP., Competent Authority.









185


SUPPLEMENT TO


PUBLISHED BY AUTHORITY


BRIDGETOWN, BARBADOS, 3RD JANUARY, 1957


HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

Tuesday 3rd July, 1956
Pursuant to the adjournment the House of Assembly met at 3 o 'dock p.m. today.
Present
His Honour Mr. K. N. R. HUSBANDS (Speaker), !-!on. G. H. ADAMS, C.M.G., Q.C., B.A., (Prmie),
.lion. Dr. H. G. Ii. CuMMINS, C.B.E. M.D., C.M,
,,Minister of Social Serr ices) ; lion.M.E. Cox (Mii3ter of ContmunicatiolS. Works a ild Ilosiig), Mr. L. E. SMT[ITH, J.P., (Chairian of Co.,nmittecs). Hon. .n. G. M\TAPP (Minister of Trade Industry an d Labomr). . F. C. GODDARD (Lcader of the Opposiiio?), Mr. J. A. HAYNES, B.A., Mr. J. C. M -TTLEr Mr. E. St.A.
HOLDER, Mr. V. B. .,UGH A, Hon. C. E. TALMTA, iniSter of AgriU7406re, Lan ds and Fisheries),
Mhrs. E. E. BouRNE, ard Mr. J. C. TITDOr,, M.A.
Praq.ers were read.
MINUTES
Mr. SPEAKEIR: I have the honour to inform the House that the Miu tes of the last meeting ar. not. yet ready for confirmation.
DOCUMENTS
Mr. SPEAKER: I have the honour to inform the I-ouse that I have received the Finaneial Report of the Accountant Genieral of Barbados for the month ended 30th April, 1956.
BILL RETURNED
Mr. SPEAKER: I have the honour to inform the House that I have received from the Other
Place the following.The Legislative Council have the honour to retiurn to the Honourable the House of Assembly a Bill intitnled an Act to acquire certain lands and rights over lands to he used in connection with the establishment of an Oceanographic Research Statiot and for the payment of compensation therefore and
-(r matters connected therewith which has been


passed with an amendment which is shewn written on the Bill.
H. A. CUKE
Presid ent.
.T'he Legislative Council Chamber,
19th June, 1956.
Mr. SPEAKER: I have the honour to inform tlie House that I have received a letter accompanied iLy a Medical Certificate from Dr. A. L. Stuart certifying that the Marshal is unable to attend t meeting of the House today.
PAPERS LAID
Hon. M E. COX: Mr. Speaker, I am commanded bv His Excellency to lay the following:- "Statement of Post Office Advances for payment of Money Orders to 30th April, 1956."
Hon. R. G. M,\APP: Mr. Speaker, 1 am commanded by His Excellency to lay the Report of th, Public Utilities Board for the year 1955.
GOVERNMENT NOTICES
Goeriet Notices wdrc given as follows:Hon. G. H. ADAM1S: Resolution to place the sum of $1,398 at the disposal of the Governor-iijExecutive Conmittee to supplement the Estimates 1956-57, Part I - Cuirrent, as shown in the Suplementary Estimates :956-57, No. 10 which form the Schedule to the Resolution.
Hon. Dr. IT. G. Il CUMMINS. Bill to ameni the Medical Registration Act, 1911.
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS: Bill to amend the Customs Tariff Act, 1921.
Hon. R. G. MAPP: Bill to amend the Customs Tariff Act. 1921.
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS. Mr. Speaker, I beg to give notice of my intention to wove the House into Committee of Sipply at its next meeting to deal with the Money i esolution of which notice has a-st been given.
PRIVATE NOTICE
Mr. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I rise to give notice uf my intention to move the passing of the following SAddress to His Excellency the Governor


VOL. XCII.


NO. 1


lot








186


OFFICIAL ,GAZETTE


The House of Assembly
To
His Excellency The Governor

The House of Assembly is of the opinion that. some record should be made of the signing of -iie Urder-in-Council setting up the British Caribbean Federation.
2. The House therefore respectfully requests Your Excellency to consult the Goxernments of tue participating territories with a view to securing- thcir approval of an entreaty of Her Majesty the Queen. that Her Majesty be graciously pleased to permit a departure from custom by allowing a photograph record to be made of the signing of the Order-inCouncil.
3. The House makes this request feeling certain that the citizens of the future Dominion should be able to follow with pride the unfolding chapte; of their history and affectionately associate Her Majesty with it.
4. The House further suggests that, if the
Governments agree, the Commissioner for the prepa,ation of the Federal Organisation be asked to take the necessary steps to have the request laid with his humble duty, before Her Majesty at an early opportunity.
3.25, p.m.
I am also asking leave to proceed with the passing of this Address today.

QUESTIONS
Mr. HOLDER: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the hon. junior member for St. Michael I beg to give notice of the following question: To enquire of the Hon. lMinister of Communications,
Works and Housing:Is the Government aware of the fact that there is "n existence certain maps and surveyor 's plans, showing a, Public Road along the seashore leading from Lower Fontabelle, Land's End, Old Burial Ground, Goodland, Brighton, Spring Gard;en, Daa esbury, Walmer Lodge The Fort., Bats Rock and Prospect where the above road joined the Black Rock Road?
2. If the answer to the above question is in the affirmative, will Government give immediate and favourable consideration to the repairing and/or rebuilding of the said. roads, so as to provide:(a) an additional ancillary road; to and froni
the proposed Deep Water Harbour, and
(b) the restoring of the n~se oE the said roads to
the general public.

BILLS READ A FIRST TIM E
Hon. Dr. II. 'G. H. CUM{MIS:- ] beg to move move that the Bill to amend the M{edical Riegistration Act, 1911 be read a first time.
Hion. M. E. Cox: I beg to second that.
The qucs'tion was iut and resolved in the affirmative without di vision.


I-Ion. Dr. I-I. G. H. C UNI\IlNS: I beg to mo;e that the Bill to amend the Customs Taxiff Act, 1921 be read a first time.
Hon. lKJ. E. COX:"1 beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirmative without division.
Hon. R. G. M AP'P: I beg to move that the Bill to amend the Customs Tariff Act, 1921, be read a frst time.
Hon. MA. E. COX: I be - to second thai.
The question was put and resolved n the affl inative without division.


AMENDMENTS TO OCEANOGRAPHIC BILL

lion. Dr. H., G. H. CUIVIXMINS: Mr, Speaker, I am asking leave to take the amendments from the Other Place to the Act to acquire certain lands and rights over lands to be used with the establishment of the Oceanographic survey and compensation therefor and matters connected therewith.
Mr. GODDARD: ,Kr. Speaker, I have no ob,jection in facilitating Government in doing the amendments first, but would certainly like to see a copy cf them because we do not know what they are. How are we going to accept these amendements without copies? If they can produce copies, I wilt be prepared'.
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, the Other I'lace has cut out a portion of the section which tie I-louse passed which said that:
"In determining for the purposes of this section whether the annual value of any land is diminished by reason of the exercise or enjoyment of any scheduled right, and in assessing any compensation under this section in respect thereto it shall be assumed that the land cannot be restored to the condition in which it would be put for the exercise or enjoyment of any scheduled right."
For the purposes of this section, no account chall be taken of any diminution or depreciation in value ascribable only to loss of pleasure or amenity.'
From what I read of the debate from the Otiter Place and from correspondence in the daily newspaper it appears that there is some dispute as to whether the existence or non-existence of sharks is an amenity. The Other Plaice has cut out this section so apparently if the existence of sharks makes the land more valuable they will pay more money for it. That is all I can see in it.
The question for proceeding with the, am end7e nts' from thd Other Place was rut. the House dividira as follows
Ayes: M%\r. SAInTn. Hon. G. H. ADAMS, Hon. Dr. CUAMMINS; ITon. IV. E. Cox. Hon. C. E. TAUMA, Hon. R,. G. M*TpP. Mrs., BOURNE. Mr. HOLDER. Mr. T, 0. BRYAx, Mr. VAUGnAN and Mr. J. C. MOTTLEY-11.
Noes: Mr. CRAWFORD. M(r. TUDOR. Mr. ALLDER. Mr. HAYNES and Mr. GODIkRD-5.
lIon. G. H. ADAMIS: Mr. Speaker, as I said, the Other Place cut out Sub-section 4 of Section 8 which !:.'eaks of compensation in respect to scheduled rights.
_i'he whole of section 8 deals with compensation and it speaks of giving it compensation in respect of which any scheduled right is exercised in the schedule and it should be payable if the Value of land should L'e diminished; the rights being to put poles in, the land outside the Research Station in order to take lines or cables to the sea and so on.
3.3 5 p.m.
That is the meaning of scheduled rights. [t makes provision for lie payment of compensation to the owners of the land across which you are taking these cables and in which you arc erecti-hg poles. In one of the reub-sections, it says this
"For the purpose of this section, no account shall be taken of any diminution or depreciation in


value ascribable only to loss of pleasure or amenity."
That is an ordinary provision which you pet in Bills and conveyancee dealing wit, h things of 'his sort. The Other Place in its wisdom, (I hope I say it without offence,) has seen fit to cut that out, although in normal circumstances, I would sugges-,-t ihat we should refuse to accept an ameniinent cf this sort because in the circumstances, at that part f the Island, it is difficult to say that there can 1)e any diminution or depreciation in value due to lo .;


JAAR 3, 195.7








JANUAR.Y 3, 1957


of pleasure or amenity. Nobody can bathe at the North Point; however, if I am in order to say this, 2ceording to accounts appea-cing in the Press, the point was raised as to whether sharks are in that vicinity or not. Apparently, the ownor of this land is -nnoyed that it was said in the Other Place that sharks are there.
Whatever may have operated in, the minds of the Other Place, we have to assume that they have acted on the highest principles in cutting this subsection out. The United States Government has been asking us since January to treat this matter with the utmost urgency, anld this is now July. There iS no point therefore in my asking this House to reject the amendment of the Other Place;-we have been prodded: by the Colonial Office and-fne United States Government to get this matter through. For those :easons, I do suggest to hon. members that they accept this amendment, although it is the sort of amendment with which in. normal circumstanmcs, wc would not be willing t agree. If the owner of -this land can say "as a. re-ult of my having to sell to you, I am losing some amenity or some pleasure,' seeing the rising suit r tne setting sun, whichever it is, the assessors w-N. mar. into consideration what he may have lost.
I do not think tia, we should w aste any mn-ore time in this Chamber wirn tnis matter, it eing s) simple; I suggest that we silould accept this amendment. I therefore beg to move mat this amendment be now read a first time.
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS: I beg to second that.
Mr. GODDARD: I opposed this matter purely on the principle or our not having on this side of the House any copies of this amendment. I appreciate very much The urgency with which this matter should be handled and for that reason, I am quite prepared to go on with it now. As regards the encroachments whicri may or may not exmst, that is purely a matter for the Arbitration Court when-ever they decide to ,r,.
Many of us have ihtafd about the area beinga shark infested area; the owner of this plantation L-:s stated that in his lifetime, he has never known anybody to be bitten or attacked by a shark. I-1e is entitled to his rights. Whether ims sub-section ir left in or not should not make any difference Lo .him. On these grounds and with the urgelcy w.,tn which I know the Government of the Unitcd mte t's cxects this matter to be handled, because it has been, delayed for a very long tie, I am prepared to go on with it today. The only reason for my ohje-:tion to proceeding with this niatter today is thaer wre should have been giveii the amendment i e written, form before .we come into the Ilouse, anat if that is too late, then let its have the amendmen when we sit in the I-louse. We cannot do an-v busincs:-' without any docunment-' in front of its, amid exDpeet us to refresh our memories of what 'tooa< place the Other Place froni the newspaper report.
M.r. ALLDER. A' long as thme (Iovermene, . Bench disrespects other lion. members on this si0de c_ the Chamber, we have the right to refuse tc,


handle an-v matter whi .ch is presented to iw regardless of whoever wants it done expeditiously. Tie amendment could have been considered today if th,; written formality had been adhered to. It is customary, for copies of amendments made by the Other Place to be presented to hon. members ef this Chainher so that they can be guided; but the Hon. Premier knows that he has a majority to vote and deal with the matter today and therefore he proceeded with it. That is great disrespect to this Chambe3r.


Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member must n(t disrespect hek vote of the H-ouse.
Mr. ALLDER: I am rnot doing that. The nol'. member knows what I have just said, and therefore he is taking advantage of us in this respect that the amendment in itself -eems to be very technical and he cannot claim to be speaking for all the member. of this House. He can make a statement, regardless of how technical a matter is, and he has his members to vote for it. As regards other hon. neinbers, a copy of the amendment is due to us especially since the Hon. Premier has read it oIut. Since the Hon. Premier. has read out the amendment, it seems to be a highly technical matter; he cannot just read it out and expect hon. members to follow it. I cannot follow it, and I hope that I will .iot be asked to vote in one way or the other on the matter, because [ shall abstain from doing so.
Mr. SPEAKER: The Rules of this House dol not allow any hon. member to abstain from voting as lon-g as he remai- in the House.
Mr. CRAAWFORD: I agree in the main, with the arguments advanced hy the hon. members on my left, but I rise to say that this is the first time that we have had an admission from the Government Bench that the American Government has had to jprod the British Government, the Colonial Office and the Local Government into activity in this matter. Some weeks ago, when I rose in this House, and said that the American Government was very apprehensive over the delay, and were expressing concern about it, I was told that that was uot true. Now today , we have heard for the firs; time thr-t the American Government has been actually accusir,,gfhem of temporizing in this matter and have expresscd apprehension over thc delay or inactivity (or both) of the Local (4overnmeitt and the British Government i- this matter.
I repeat what I said on that occasion; the. .American Officials in the West Indies, not necessarily :n Barbados have claimed that they were of the opiiion that the British Government was holding up t*he matter. It now appears clear to me. from what has been said by the Government, that the allega;on has been justified even now, because of the fact that there appeared to be such an unnecessary dolay in bringing the matter to a conclusion.
3 45 p.m.
Mr. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, now that the singl.,.h copy of this amended Bill which is iii possession of the House is now in imy hands, I am in a position to speak bctter on it. It is interesting" to know (anl !think this ought to ,be said for the record) that we h~ave been asked today to consider a matter without the document aiid to consider it on the spur of the, moment.
I listened to the lHon . Premier recommending � o the h-ouse to accept this ameucdneet and I understood front him, because all he had to say was all all that was said, that the amendment was of no. great importancee and it could be accepted. From a preliminary glance at iP, he sents to be right but thm: point which I wish to. nake is that it is quite ha-. p"eitiacut to expect us to consider this amendment


�v7-ith such haste and without even having seen it before and not to upbraid the Other Place for wasting the time of the Aimnericans by having sent back this amendment to u- which in my opinion migt
*-ell have not been moved.
If the, argument is that we must not waste time. and if the admission by the lion. Premier hims.H. it is not the sort of amendment that there needs -o be any controversy about, then the Other Place need4,3 not to have made the amendment, since the


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188 OFFICIAL GAZETTE JANUARY 3, 1957


amendment does not effect the main purpose of the Act so as to prevent the place from being bought.,
I think it was was my colleague--the hon. senior member for St. Lucy - who when the Bill wasb.3 fore us, drew attention,: just as the Other Place has 'lone, to this Clause which is the subject of con,roversy between the Other Place and us and tle arguments which were used by the Other Place were I-artly used by my colleague. I wish to say that there is nothing wrong with what they have suggested, but sinee this amendment is so slight, they need not bave wasted their time and ours.
I have no objection to this amendment but I wish
to enter this protest. I agree with the hon. junior member for Christ Church and the hon. senior meml1er for St. John that great discouirtesy has beet; Siaown to this House. I am not reflecting on the vot. which has just been passed. But even on a slight matter like this, could it not have been found possibi,; to type 24 copies of this proposed amendment and treat the House with the courtesy to which it due ?
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, I wish to apologise to the O )position for assuming that in the case of a simple amendment like this, it was umi,.ecessary to go to %he expense of typing anid cyclostyling copies. The non' senior member for St. Jolhn st-emed to suggest to the Government that the Opposition has no intelligence whatsoever. Let me say that we have in the past have had corrections from the Other Place in the form of a semi-colon in place o( a comma; we have had corrections as to the year in which a Bill should date.
I am sorry if I am interrupting the hon. senior .nenber for St. John from reading the Advocatc Newspaper but inasmuch as he made the point seen:r-ly against the Government, I am assuring hit tiat the Governmeni; will not disrespect the protest ,vnicmi ne macie regarding the intelligence of time Opposition. I want io assure him that so long as our tnances wii stana the expenditure in future every commiia will be typed out and handed to the opposition.
This is a simple amendment. We say we must uot take into consideration what was difficult to assess. For example, it a man nas his house facing east, that means something to him. We say tha-t could not be assesed in pounds, shillings uind pence, therefore that could not be taken into consideration. The Other Place has said that you must take that into consideration. All I have been able to gather front the debate in the Other Place through the perusal of the Press report i5 that a remark was made that it was a shark infested area and objeetion was taken to that statement. :Personally, if I had a place, to s;ell which was a shark infested place I would boost A, but apparently some people think that such a. place would not raise: as much money.
The Opposition have proclaimed to us that, never mind however simple the amendments to -m Bill may be, we should let.them read them. In future, we will set out every letter from A to Z so that the 0. position will not have any o opportunity of saying that we did not tell them about it. I apologise to the


House for having wasted this time in replying.
The question that the amendment b enow read a first time was put aod resolved in the affirmative, , ,without division.
On separate motiws of Ho,. G. IT. ADAM$. secondedd by Hon. D,. H. G. IT. CUMIUNS in each f ase, the amcodmenig was read a s ecord t7me avd7 agreed to.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
Mr. SPEAKER: The next Order of Day stands in the name of the Hion. Minister of Social Services:


to move the House into Committee of Supply to conzider the grant of sums of money for the service of the colony.
lion. Dr. H. G. H, CUMMINS. Mr. Speaker, I beg to move that Your Honour do now leave the Chair and the House go into Committee of Supply
Hon. MW E. COX: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirm native without division and the House went into Committee of Supply, Mr. SMITH being in the
Chair.

Supplementary Estimate No. 9 Transport

Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman, this Resolution is divided into six parts. It deals with, first of all a sum of $110,000 to meet the deficit on We working of the Transport Board from the 24th August, 1955 until the 30th June, 1956. The sec):ad iRem is for the sum of $2,245 to engage the services rort services of Barbados. The third item is for the sum of $750 to pay an honoraria to certain members of the staff of the Department of Highways and Transport who were ergaged in the taking over ot he buses.
The fourth Item is a revote of $8,795 to which the House has already agreed to engage the services of an expert from the United Kingdom to give evidence on behalf of the Government in a case which will come off very soon regarding some of these buses. The fifth Item, Mr. Chairman, is the sum of $25,000 to purchase a Leyland Diesel Bus to seat 44 passengers in order to demonstrate to the public the type of tran-sportation facilities which Government intends to provide for them: and the last item is for $75,500 to provide accommodation for housing these units and also for work shops.
Now, Sir, I am well aware of the fact that the criticism of the Transport service and Tran-port Board has more or less gained momentum in these recent days not because, Mr. Chairman, the service is so bad or because it is worse than what it used to be when owned by private people, but because Sir, as we know this is Election year: and as such the Opposition-those who wish us well but on the other side-have to find something out of which: they can make capital. in addition, Sir, more particularly with the local Press, we are all aware of the fact that the Government can do nothing that is right where the Advocate newspaper 1concerned; and this newspaper of course being interested in big businIess, would at all times be opposed to the Government running any sort of service in this Island. As a matter of fact as you know, Sir, they always support free enterprise irrespective of whether or not the price of the comnioditv is within the purchasing power of th~e community.
Now, Mr. Chairman, as regards the other item, perhaps I should say before going further, how much I thank the H-on. Leader of the Oppomtmi. for sending inc a questionnaire in advance in order


that I may be able to prepare the necessary replies: and while I may not make specific reference, I hope the hon. member will be following me as I make various points which even indirectly will be a reply or replies to the questions which he posed.
Now, as regards the $110,000, the operating deficiency to the 30th June, is $95,000, unlike the r-mnour in the Press that it was half million dollars and also from the hon. junior member for St Lucy that the Government had been operating at a loss of I alf million dollars and all that nonsense The operating deficiency up to the 30th of' this


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JANUARY 3, 1957 OFFICIAL GAZETTE 189


mnouth is $95,090; the other $15,000 is to purchase .50 new tyres for these buses at an average of $101 ,per tyre. Now, perhaps if members will follow me, they will see from the figures I shall give that while it appears to be a loss, in actual practice it is not a loss when you take these points into consideration; and even if it were a loss, I am sure that when we took over the buses, when the Resolution for $30,000 was before this House, the Government did not at that time give the guarantee that this service would be operated at a profit evc
-though our ultimate aim is that is should operate at a profit.
4.05 p.m.
Now, Sir, the fact is that the number of buses taken over, as members will remember was 116. Now at the time it was agreed by letters betweeea the Government and former concessionaires that the Goverunent would take over all serviceable vehicles and spare parts, though unfortunately for us-perhaps I should have said it at an earlier
-stage-there were some vehicles, I think between five and six, which were taken over and which have not up to now proved to be serviceable. I should say that because it is common property to quite a number of people, and the buses are still lying on the ground and I am not sure if any hand can be made of them. They have never worked from the
.time they were taken over.
Perhaps at a later stage some investigation will reveal the true situation.
Now, Mr. Chairman, since we have taken over these buses, we have had to purchase
Mr. BARROW Oni a point of Order. The
hon. member is revelling in having taken over
buses, but my recollection is that this Tranpsort Board Bill was dealt with sometime in August last year, and the buses were handed over to an independent Statutory Board. I am therefore asking for a Ruling Mr. Chairman. I pres mne that
.you are still the. Chairman of Committees aind not the hon. senior member for St. Joseph whom I wish would keep quiet. I am asking whether the hon. senior member for St. Michael took over the buses or whether the Act which provides for the estab]ishIent of a Transport Board has been repealed and the buses are now in his custody and possession.
.-Hon. M. E. COX: That is not a point of
Order. 'The hon. member is only interrupting me.
Mr. BARROAW: Mr. Chairman, you will
make your own Ruling in the fulness of time. My point is that these two Resolutions are out, of Ord(icr because there is no alitiority under any Act for bringing forward either of them. If you scrutinize the Transport Board Act, you will see that an independent Statutory Authority was set up with powers to borrow money, to raise loans and to look after matters of tf.at kind. It is not a Govenm~r4t Dep artmeut.; it is an inaiep cei dent Statutory Board, so much so that his Htonour the Speaker made Rulings on two separate oceasic~ns that even questions concerning the running of this Board were out of order at the time when th e questions were submitted.
H-on. MV. B. COX :, The hon. member is only


interrupting me.
Mr. BARROW: I am explaining, the point of Order on which I have risen, and if you experience any difficulty, Mr. Chairman, I suggest that you send for His Honour the Speaker to Rule as to whether these Resolutions are not out of order. There is no authorisation for them. We cannot take money out of the Treasury unless there is some Statutory Authority enabling us to do it; that is an elementary principle. If none of the members


over there understands that, it is regrettable. I hope that Your Honour has grasped my point; it would be very interesting to hear the hon. member say that he has taken over the buses; only the Transport Board Act could give the right to take over the buses. You cannot get money out of the Jrreasury, unless a Bill is passed, to put a shelter over these buses at this late stage; if the hon. member reads the Transport Board Act and the Local Loan Act, he will see that there is no Statutory AuthorityHon. G. H. ADAMS,: Has it ever been said in 300 years what the hon. member has just said?
Mr. BARROW: Mr. Chairman, if you want the hon. member to speak for you, you must invite him to do so.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member is not speaking for me.
Mr. BARROW: It sounds so.
I-Ion. G. H. ADAMS: The hon. member and others have raised the point'with His Honour the Speaker as to whether hon. members cannot speak on a point of Order. HIlowever, to say that the Crown cannot ask for money is sheer nonsense, and I am amazed that even the hon. member has wasted our time in raising this point:
Mr. BARROW: I am not suggesting that, the Crown cannot ask for money. I am saying that
they cannot come into the House with this Resolutvon .'because there is no Statutory Authority for it. Of course, the Constitution of Barbados is flexible in the hands of the hon. senior member for St. Joseph; we know that he can do anything which he wants done. There is a way to do this thing, but this is not the way to do it. I hope hat the hon. member who expurgates the debates of this House does not eradicate from the records the interesting statements now made by the hon. senior member for St. Joseph; I would like the debate on this Resolution to be another one to remain on the records for the benefit of posterity.
Mr. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman,
Mr. CHAIRMAN: On what is the hon.
member speaking?
2Mr. CRAWFORD: Obviouslv, on a poi)t of Order.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member must say SO.
Mr. CRAWFORD: I wish to enanire since when has tie Crown began running these buses. We, in this Legislature, created a Transport Board, as a separate entity, to run the buses. That Board is empowered to borrow money, to acquire property and to (10 anything it likes with the buses under its control. If the Board wants money ,now, they have to raise it by way of a loan from Government or front any other source; bitt the Government can.not now borrow money to run these buses. The Transport Board is a separate entity which was: formed to deal with tihe entire question of Tra'usport. Before we had a Transport Board, one could understand time Government asking for aiiy amount to make an advance for the operation of those buses; but the moment you establish a separate entity to deal with this matter, the Government


has imo power to do what they are now doing. What the hon. senior member for St. Josephhas said is by no means an answer to the question raised by the hon. senior member for St. George.
Hon. G. IT. ADAMS: The hon. member should read the Resolution. On the Estimates of this Country today, there is a Head dealing with Transport; the amount which has been voted under this Head has not proved to be enough, and this ResoLution seeks to increase the amount which we have


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1 9fl OFFICIAL~ GAZETTE 3, 1957


already voted. Those hon. members should pay
the Committee the compliment of reading what is before them; all this, supplementary estimate asks is to make more money available for this purpose. Do we need to waste any more time with this alleged point of Order? But they have been filibustering from 4 o'clock, that is all that it .lnaons.
Mr. TUDOR: A Ruling has ee sought o"
vou, Mr. Chairman, and I think it siouit Lbe giv(H-r before we proceed with this matter. [I-i n. G. i ADAMS': This is purely filibustering, we will, sit here until n'.c.rning, we are not afraid.! [MIr. CRA FORD: We will sit here until next week. -1 Then a-e two Resolutions 'e us today)and the �100.
Minister did not indicate to us wilethier he is dealing with one or the other, or with both of then. fen will notice, Mr. Chairman, that that is what has estab. wished the point of Order. Although, there are two cistinet Resomtions, the Hon. Minister (lid not say with which of them ie was dealing. At the end of ihese Resolutions, we ,'ead these words: "Resol,.d that Iis Excellency the Governor 1.easked to asseit and take the necessary steps to give effect to this Resolution.'
i take the preliminary objection to th eoupi ', of these two Resolutions. The first Resolution, Mr. Chairman, is enbodied in the other, and the second one must have an Act authorising the loan. You know from your own experience that the Appropriatio Set and the Resolutio:ns on the Estimates in respect o0 Capital Expenditure are not done together. Thnt Is why we are seeking a Ruling in this matter.
4.15 p.m.
Mr. CRAWFORD: Mr. Cbairmian, The Ho.n.
.Ainister needs not show his nervousness like that. What he must do is to answer the questions put to him if he wants the debate to proceed. What I want to know is if the Crown can cone in here with a zian lar resolution for something in respect of the Natural Gas Corporation. That Corporation is also a separate entity set, up to control natural gas in the colony. It has a similar Board to, that of the Transport Board. Both Boards were set up by similar Ueg islation.
While it is true that in respect of the expenses as regards hhe Transport Board a Resolution was brought down to grant this money before the Board was set up, I am not a t all satisfied in my mind that the Government is entitled to seek for funds as it is today in respect of tIe operation of the Transport Board.
There are one of two Items in the Resolution, ,uch as ''Legal Expentses'' whieh were involved in the take over, aiid the "thonoraria" for renmnnerat ing the Mechanic-Engineers who worked overtime in putting the buses iii order before the Board was established, whidh the Government eaii afford to come here for those funds under a, Sluppleinentary Resolution; bnt if they ai'e entitled to conic in this fashion, well then, if the Natural Gas Corporation wants something all it fhas to do is to tell the Governuient that it. wants more money. I aum not at alt satisfied in mind that the Crowii is entitled i~o ask 'or what the ion. Minister wants for this Transport Board.


Hon. M. F. COX:. r. Chairman, I was sayingMr. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a point � of Order.
Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman, for what is the (hon. member bobbing up and down every minM-r. CHAIRMAN: (to the hon. junior eienber for St. Lucy) Are you asking a question?
Mr. TUDOR: Your ruling has been asked on certain questions.


Mr. CHAIRMAN: The ruling which, I have before me is the Addendum to the Resolution which reads as follows: "This Resolution is to authorise the: supplementary provision included in the Supplementary Estinates, 1956 57, No. 9."
Mr. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, with great respect. 19 you, when a member of the Committee asks you for a ruling, he means ruling as regards the pro-cedural question which is involved. That has nothing to do with v]hether Government should spend money or not; that is something different. We are asking, you to say whether this method is a correct one.
Hon. Al. E. COX: Mr. Chairman I was sayimug .4hat there was quite a considerable lot of expenses, for the short time the buses have beei operated by the Transport Board and as I was pointing out i . Ihe Committee, we have had to purchase over the last ten months 341 tyres which amount to $4,920.
Mr. BARROW: Mr. Chairman, i rise on a point of Order.
lI-on. M. E. COX- We have also had to pm'enase 106Mr. CHAIRMAN. Has the hon. senior member .or St. George risen o, a point of Order"?
Mr. BARROW: This Chamber has a long anit i 'lustrious history of Parliamentary and constitutional Government behind it and I do not think that one should flout all the well established rules, of pro ,edure. I am not dea.li.g with the issue involved but f do say it is in your favour to give a ruling on the .aatter. I think the attempt by the hon. senior memher for St. Michael is only one to subvert the well established authority of the Chair.
Mr. Chairman, if you do -not feel at this stage ,,om potent to give a ruling on the matter, I suggest that you send for Mr. Speaker. It would not be any ,-eflectio, on your ability :but I am submitting that it is a serious matter on which you are questioned and one on which you should give a ruling.
Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman., I was saying that we have had to purchase 106 batteries at a cost. of $4,770. W"e have haci. also to purchase 43 cylinder heads at a cost of $5,160. We have had also to put-chase 37Mr. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman,
Mr. CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. member gi-ve me a chance and wait?
Mr. CRAWFORD: It is common courtesy to, 'the Chair, if the Chair is endeavouring to resolve a miiatter, that both sides of the House keep quiet. The lion. senior member fci: St. Michael should refraifrom proceeding with time matter while the Chair" ('md eavouring 1o resolve time matter.
Mr. CIA IRMAN- Reading Clause 15 of tin
Transport Act, 1955, it says that the Board may,. with the approval of tme Governor-in-Executive Con'. mittee, borrow by way of loan, overdraft or other',.vse, such sums as th Board mnay require for muelting their obligations or discharging their functions' under this Act. I take it that the money which thcy, had was not suffiient and they are asking for a supplemneutary vote, therefore I rule that this Resolution .q an order.
VOICES: No, No.


Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman, I was saying Mr. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a point of Order.
425 m.
lion. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman, I was saying Sir, that we have . . .
Mr. CRAWFORD: On a pohit order,
Sir,
Mr. CHAIRMAN': There is no point of order, I rule the hon. member out of order.


.JANLA~RY 3, 195 7


190,


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JANUARY 3, 1957 OFFICIAL GAZETTE 191


Ur. CRAWFORD): I am asking you to enlighten my ignorance on the paragraph you read as follows:"The Board may with the approval of the Governor -Exeeutivq, borrow by way odE loan overdraft or otherwise, such sums as the Board may require for meeting the obligations or .-i11argIng .their functions under this Act."
What have we got before us today to shuv that the Board is borrowing money?
Mr. CHAIRMAN: This is a Supplementary Resolution and the Addendum tells you. I am going by the Addendume which is in front of me. This Resolution is to authorise the Supplementary
-rovision included in the 'Supplemieotary Estimates. If you are not going to authorise it, you may say so.
Mr. CRAWFORD: May I submit, Sir, that ,any person in the Government offices can write an Addendum. Any clerk can write an Addendum,
and what was done, which is the burden of our ,actions today, is that the Transport Board Act was sanctioned by the legislature last year.
Mir. CHAIRMAN: I have already made my ruling.
Mr. CRAWFORD: May I submit, MHr. Chairman, that your ruling is a misinterpretation of the Act and I would like to
-Mr. CIIAIRMAN: I rule the hon. member out of order as far as the explanation is concerned
-and I am asking the Hon. Minister in charge to ,continue. The hon. senior member for St. Philip will take his seat.
Hon. M. E. COX, Now, Sir, I was pointing out just now that we had to purchase .
Mr. CRAWFORY): M2ay I repectfully submit that the Speaker be called upon to rule one way or another because -, our interpretation is incorrect.
Mr. CHAIRM4AN: I am ruling the hon. memn ber out of order.
Hon. M. E. COX: I was saying, Sir, that we have had to purchase 106 batteries which cost $4,770, 43 cylinder heads $5,160, 37 clutch discs $814, 32 clutch pressure-plates $1,305, 8 crank shafts $1,200 4 clutch housing $140, 14 oil filters $88, 6 blocks $1,800, differential crown wheels 10 of these - $1,100, nine manifolds - $360, gearboxes complete - $1,500, transmission gears $860, miscellaneous small parts $5,000 that amounts to $64,947. This in a sense may be regarded as capital outlay.
Now, as I pointed out earlier, the deficit on the working of the Board up to the 30th of last month is $95,000; the figures quoted above represent a sum of alone $64,947. Now, we go on further, MJr. Chairman. As regards the wages: as you know from the time Government took over the buses-as a matter of fact before the buses were actually taken overthe Government agreed to an overall increase of wages, and as soon as they were taken over, increased wages were paid. The average wages paid to conductors and drivers when employed by former employers were $4.18 per day. The Government rate is $5.28 per day, an increase of 24:%; so, Sir, at the end of last month, the total wages paid to drivers and conductors were $220,800-that is, at


the new rate-and that is an increase of what they used to get under former employers of $53,000.
Now, as regards inspectors, they used to get $2.20 per day. The Government pays them $3.20 per day, an increase of approximately 45% and that brings the total of wages paid to inspectors up to, last month, to $35,561-an increase of $15,503 over the old rates; so that alone, Mr. Chairman, when you add these increases-and we have also paid mechanics $89,722 up to the end of last month-the increase


to drivers and conductors and the increases to inspectors, you will see, Sir, alone represent $68,503; so when you add $68,503 to the $64,947 which I have already mentioned you will see that that represents $123,450. I shall invite any member of this House-or all the members if they so desire-to go over to the Board and check for themselves and see that there are in stock 106 dead batteries which were taken over with these buses, and as I said, all the old parts taken out of the buses. They can go and see them in the store house of no use, tyres included. So although it appears, Mr. Chairman, that the loss is great, you will see from the increase in wages, and as a matter of fact, the increase of wages alone could offset the deficit which here appears; that is, in so far as the $110,000 is concerned.
4.35 p.m.
.i should mention that some Firmis axa eagerly waiting on this money; the position is not as bad as has been represented in some sections of the Press; and when the matter was drawn to the Government's attention, the Government took immediate steps to get money- in order to pay off the outstanding accounts
As regards Item No. 2, we have had various correspondence with people who are very well acquainted with the running of Transport. Some time ago, Mr. James from Jamaica who runs the British Electric Traction Company there, came here and discussed the question of the operation of the bus service in this Island, and he told us that the Diesel Motor were very good motors. They seat 44 people and there is standing accommodation for as many as another 40 persons. After we had discussions with iV[r. James, another gentleman called Mr. Gibbons, who is the Licensing Authority in Trinidad, alsd' passed through here and gave us a lot of valuable information as to how the bus service is being opeMaited in Trinidad. As hon. members know, the Trindad transport service used to be run by the Government and they lost over $1 million a year when they were operating their service, whereas this service only shows a deficit of $95,000. [Mr. E. D. MAOTTLEY: That is a first-class example.] That service was afteryards given to private Concessionaires, and Mr. Gibbons takes great care to see that the Concession; ires run the buses in an up to date manner, and that the profits made are not, as is usually done in tie majority of cases in this Island, put into property but that the profits or quite a considerable part of them are ploughed back into the Transport service,
-hereby providing 'for an adequate and up-to-date service. Mr. Gibbons inspects their books, way-bills amid everything else, and judging from what he has told us. I can see that there is almost a cast-iron system obtaining in Trinidad today. We have discussed with him the possibility of Iris coming here .-u.d giving us some of his experience, and he has agreed to do so. He is now in the United Kingdom and hopes to pass through here sometime around the 1 5th of Ane'ust; if this Resolution is passed, as 1 have no donbt it will be pass ed, M r. Gibbons will be bere to assist us in thVs matter of the re-org'anisation of the Transport services.


Since the Concessionaires were granted their concessionsI think it was in 1936 or 1939-quite a lot of areas have been built up, and it is time that "w.re should have a re-distribution of the routes to fall in line with providing the necessary Transport faoflilies in respect of those areas which have been recently built up.
As regards Item No. 3, the amount of $750.00, ni required to pay honoraria to some members of the staff of the Highways & Transport Department who worked overtime during this take-over of the buses.


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lion. members will remember that quite a few ol these people, even the Stenographer-'vypklbs, worked overtime during this take over, and in the circumstances, it was agreed to pay them honoraria to the UTune of $750.00 to these people who did this work luring this time.
The other Item under this Head is for the sum of $8,795 in respect of legal expenses. As I have already said the amount of this Item has already been voted by this IHouse, and therefore I need not repeat what was said then. I shall only remind
hon. members that the case is expected to commence sometime early next month or rather the middle ot .ext month, and it is necessary to have this money in order to get a Queen's Counsel to appear oi, behalf of tire Govermuent.
Under the Head Capital Expenditure, it is proposed that we purchase a 44 Seater Diesel bus similar to those which are in operation in Trinidad and d amaica. As I said just now, we were told by Mr. James and Mr. Gibbons that it is a waste of time to iun these gasolene motors. We have been told that these Diesel Motor buses are sturdy and-strong auct they have a good life of at least 10 years, and the t ost of one of these buses is $25,1000. As soon as this iLesolution has been passed, the order for this bus %ill be placed.
As I have said, of the buses which were take. over, many of them lad already passed the ten-year limit; some of them have been in existence since 1939. It is not at all surprising to me that if yen read the conents made in the Press, it woui4appear is if these buses had deteriorated in the last Q or 10 months more so than they had deteriorated within the last 10 years or so. The buses which were taken over have been twice written off. From the comments made inj the Press, for example, quite recently the head lines in the Press showed that the back of a bus had dropped off; well, if the back o!. the bus dropped off, when the -ovrnmen took it over, the back was nearly off. [Lauglter]. We could not have taken over a good bus, and then it deterioi ated 1o that extent in 9 months! The faet is that this particular bus skidd.ci on the -vet road in Locust Hall Hill, struck a bridge and a pa.t of the upright at the back of the bils broke and f-,]l, that is what happened. Of course, vou will hear any sort of thing ?ow, especially from. the hon. junior member for St. Lucy who was hoping to get a debate; Is litt.n heart will now come down since. the debate on the question of Government policy in relation to these i'uses has started.
4.45 p.m.
I .have a brochure here (which I want to show to hon. members) showing the type of bus to which I have referred and which the Transport Board is hoping to put into operation in a short space of time.
Now, Sir, I come to Item 6. That is for the sum of $75,500 to provide accommodation for these buses. As we read in the newspapers sonic time ago (althOugh I pay very little attention to what they have to say) we saw that it was suggested that we


provide quarters for these buses. That was a suggestion which was made almost from the time we
took them over. Sir, if you remember, when the Resolution for $30,000 was before the House, it was pointed out then that the Government was prepared to keep one or two of the routes which were taken over when the final decision was made. It will also be remembered that, while some people said (or will have people to believe) that we were anxious to take over the buses, that was not the case. I think the public ought to know that it was not a question of Government being deirous of taking over the buses


but rather that the Government acted in order tci keep the cost of living down, especially so for the poorer people of this Island. The Government said then, that it was not prepared to increase the bus fares because it took into consideration the large number of school children who were transported daily from all parts of the country to and from Bridgetown and that being so, if the bus fares were increased at the time, it would cause a great narciship omn the parents of those children .to ee1, them in school. As an alternative, which you will remember M1C. Chairman, the Government offered logive a rebate of 15% cn gasolene to the concessionires and as you know,, the concessionaires turned. lown that of0.er. They said that they wanted 50>., and if they were .tot given that, they were willing. that the Government purchase the buses.As a result,. the Government was faced with no alternative under the circumnstances than to accept th,.o ofof taking over the buses; so the Goverinuent took over the buses.
As was pointed out already, and as is poimeiout in the questionnaire submitted by the Hon. Leader
-)f the Opposition, the CGovernment before taking over the buses called for tenders for concessions ta Operate the various routes, and about eight persons. applied. I said then, id I will sa> again, that J
*.,.as never the intention. of the Government to operate. all the routes taken oxer. That is still! the policy of' .ie Government. As I have said already, there an-c 7ome people who have applied for concessions whoseapplications still hold good today, but the Governmient could nor release those buses because of th, fact that we do not know how much these buses ar, ooing to cost. As you know, Sir, nothing has beenii decided yet; therefore, we cannot take the buses arid give them to people without first knowing hew mueh will these buses cost. Neither do I believe anybodywould be so stupid as to take them over without knowing what they wifi cost. That is the reason why o firm agreement has been reached, so far as the-.t buses are con cerned.
To all this must 1e added that we had a hurricane on us almost simultaneously with tihe takit.g over of these buses, and it meant that all our forces. 1had to be concentrated on the hurricane. We also had at the time darnag done to the buses as a result of the hurricane and we had to send many of those mits to the various garages to be repaired; ard' doubtless, at some of the very garages which wer~a owned by the people front whom we had taken over these buses. Of course, as in all cases where Governmenit is concerned, whenever Governent wants amiy. t~himmg, it nmst pay through its teeth for it; amid s we had to pay through our teeth for the repairs done to those buses at the various garages.
The question will also be raised ae'ain, as I saw it in the Press: why not provide shelters for these. buses. I think members of the Oppositiom, even whcii we brought down a Resolution for money to fimni.'m Government H~eadquarters and to start the new Bay Street Boy's School, shouted loudly that we should do nothing but eonc~ntrate all our force; on the repairs to houses and rehabilitation of the peopci. who suffered in the hurricane. I'- fact all our effortswere comnetated on ihat.


We read regularly that even passengers are corn plaining of the bus service which Government i' now running'. As long ao one refuses to disclose one s name, that can be taken to mean a former concessionaire, or a Broad Street merchant who does not travel in these buses. As long as a '-orn de plume is used. that can be taken to mean anybody. On the question of increasing bus fares, you read that somebody is .;aying "why will you not increase bus fares? If you increase bus fares all this trouble would cease-"


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I would not swallow that and-the-reason why I would not swallow that is because, the concessio-1-aires were not talking of increasing their fleet; they
-were saying that their operational expenses .were
-more than their revenue, and therefore they wanted so much as would square them and give them a little profit. That is what they were saying.
Now, Sir, just to show you when you hear and read certain things that they are not always accurate, I will say this. The Committee knows when we had taken over the buses, that among then were ten buses of the Progressive Bus Company. Two weeks ,after those buses were taken over, the owner wrote
-to the Government asking whether it would be good enough to returnthose buses to him. Of course, the ,answer was "No". It went on like that for some time, until the owner-made representation stathg 1 hat he was quite' haipy and contented with what his profits were before the take-over. Of course, I did not believe:that and I-doubt whether, anybody will. He did say f.hat he was making a very good profit and 'that.'he was misled by the hon. junior ember for St. -James; therefore, he found himself i71 that "goflg down.'" He appealed to the Govern-ment to allow him to ,have backhis buses.
4.55 p.m.
Well, eventually around May last we decided o return his buses after he made his final plea; and those buses were returned with what would be regarded as a status quo, We said, "here they are; yo(i take then back as they are; the Government is freed from any liability present or future;" and these buses were handed back to the Progressive Bus Conpany with a document sealed and signed: the Go-.'-rnment is freed from any liability now or in thii, Iuture. That was the condition under which the buses were given back to ir Birch. Not a cent was paid. We hMaded them back just as they were with the understanding that if you want them back just as they are, and he willingly and gladly took them 12 o'clock in the-night and he was very glad to gel; them back in his garage, and I know he is happy and Ie canl now smoke his cigar again. Now, if that was so, if these buses were losing all that money, as we were told, I am sure that this gentleman would iiot have taken back his buses in the condition in, which they were after they bad been on our possession for over eight months. At least he would have sai3.,
"You should give me something, depreciation or something for the months you had them; but that was not the case at all. These buses were taken back as they were from the Government with a signed document, as I said, f; seeing us froni any presentt cc future liability. That, in my opinion, is evideiice ( prove that it is not true to say that these buses were operating at a loss or at least the majority of them
-and again I repeat we find that other concession.a'res are still operating their routes. There were fourteen concessionaires; eight gave up their buses and six kept theirs; and the return of the conc essiam above referred to make a total of seven p~vately ruts, {rom whom we have !_ eard no further complaints. Now again, as you will remember, Sir, in the Press, this question of a committee recommending an iin-


crease in fares is always looming up , and people are inclined -some people rather-to say that if lc. increase had been given by the Goverinment, we would not be in what they consider a quandary. But f would like this to be clearly understood; we are in ,no quandary. The buses we have today-or at least the majority of them-are in far better condition than they were immediately before they were taken over by Government. I now refer a paragraph which was written appears in the report of the very Corn mimioners appointed to enquire into the bus fares


at the time--this was on the 24th June, 1955-an, thisis what they said:
"In the course o- this enquiry we found our.selves at some disadvantage in that adequate statistical information was -not available from many corcassionaires to enable us to make a proper comparison and reliable estimates For example, important in. formation such as the number of passengers carried, mileage covered. etc. was lacking in many cases."
And what is the position? They said, however, in as much as these fares were fixed in 1936 or 1939, you should give an increase and also make it incumbent upon them to provide new and better units. That is what the Commissioners said then, and as I was saying, Mr. Chairman, the-case -put forward L1y the concessionaires wa; never formed on the grounds of providing units to increase their existing fleets.
I have quoted the Progressive Co. is case as an in stance to show you that while on the one hand you get people clamouring for an increase and saying if you had only increased the fare by one cent Governmert would not have making adequate profits; although he was one who protested and joined*the others in giving up the buses. The buses are ruling again under his supervision and as I said he seems to be a happy man. I think, Sir, I have dealt with those points set out in the Resolution, and I repeat I amna "ure non that hon. members here know the true position, even though they would be quite willing at all times and more particularly on this occasion to attack the Minister of Transport, I am sure that they will see that the picture is far different from what the public was led to believe. They will see, as I said, that while you have an operating deficit of $95,000 to the end of last mouth, the causes or reasons for that deficit are clear ir that the additional wages paid to drivers, conductors and inspectors are approximately $83,000.
.505 p.m.
These are wages in excess of what these people used to get when they were working with the private employers. As I have already pointed out, we have ha to purchase batteries and other accessories which 2an be regarded as capital, and at least they can last for another 8 months or even a year: the guaranteed life of a battery is a year. As I said a while ago, we have had to supply 106 new batteries; we also had to buy 341 new tyres All these things had to be in.talled in these buses so as to make them serviceable ":r the road.
Mr. Chairman, I -tiink I have dealt with all the points which are likely to arise. I do not know if I hmave answered all that has been asked by the hon. junior member for Christ Church as to the policy of the Government with regard to the Transport service of this Island. The policy of the Governemt is to dispose of some units which we now own as soon ao the necessary arrangements can be made, anl to operate the remainder It umay l e that after a few years a complete taking over of the Transport service by Government will take place. That is the Govermnent 's policy.
The homi. member asked how many Concessions


Sere operating on the 10th August. 1935? There were 14;. he Government took over 8 of them. One has been returned, which leaves us with 7, and a total l of 106 buses. The hon. member went further and asked for-what purpose did the Government take over the buses? Well, the purpose is obvious; the buses wvere taken over for the purpose of carrying on th.Transport service of the Island which the former coilcessionaires told us they were not prepared to carry on after the 22nd August. 1955. As to the question of taking over these buses with a -view to giving them to new people, that was not so.-I have already an


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swered the question about advertising for new Co n,-cessionaires; we have received 8 tenders: some of which are still good today. No new .oncessions were granted; those who carried on outside of the Govern meant, carried on uider the old conditions.
Mr. BARROW: On a point of Order. I should like to know under what Act of Parliament is this Resolution authorised.
Hon. M. E. COX: The hon. junior member for Christ Church asked whetherMr. BARROW: Mr. Chairman. I am enquiriug under what Act of Parliament is this Resolution authorised.
Mr. CHAIRMA2N: I will find out from t!h. Clerk and let the hon. member know.
Hon. M. E. COX: The answer to the question. also asked by the hon. junior member for Christ Church as to whether the Government has been
keeping separate accounts in respect of each units which we took over. On the question of what profits profits and or losses were made in respect of each concession retained, is "'yes. We have been keeping separate accounts in respect of each lot of units
-which we took over. On the question of what profits and/or losses were made in respect of each concession retained, the answer has already been
given, because I said that there was a deficit o.' $95',000 up to the middle of last month.
Mr. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman.Mr. BARROW: Mr. Chairman, on a point olI Order. I wanted to know under what Act of Parliament this expenditure of funds from the Public Treasury has been authorised. I think that the Addendum to this Resolation is very misleading, an(d it has misled you. The Addendum says this
"This IResolution is to authorise the Supplemcntary provision included in the Supplementary Estimates, 1956-57, No. 9.*
I should like to say that there is n.o Supplementary Resolution No. 9 of the 1956-57 Estinates; tni. Resolution is Resolution No. 9 itself. I think it i.s most dishonest of the Civil Servants perhaps II should withdraw the words "Civil Servants" because We know who are *be hewers of wood and th,
drawers of water. but it is misleading to draw 11r the Resolution in this way. There is n-o such Head in the Appropriaticn Act as Head XXXVI: on, the Appropriation Adt has been passed. my sNbm,sion is that you can only bring in a Supplementary Resolution uqder what appears as a Head in. th( Act. to take money oat of the Treasury by way uf a Resolution. Unless there. is something to bang over it, there is .nothing to prevent the hon. member fro~m appropriating money to himself.
H-on. MV. E. COX' M~r. Chairman, I strongly object to that statement. The hon. member with his twisted mentality is always giving a bad imprcssio,7 of other people.
Mr. BARRtOW: Well, there is nothing to p~ revent him from giving the money to me. then [Laughter]. I am saying that there is no Act of Parliament anthorising this expenditure at all. This


is a very serious business.
Mr. C-IAIRMAN: The Hon. Leader of th. House is going to move the adjourn-ment of tiie House at this stage, a.d at the same time, T will got your point clarified. Or re-assembling, I will be able to tell you something about the matter. [MEMBERS That is alright.1
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMIINS: Mr. Chairman.i I beg to move that you do now report progress avd v,s] for leave for the Committee to sit again.
Mrs. BOURNE:: I beg to second that.


The motion being pt and carried neo. con. the Chairman reported progress and Mr. Speaker re. suned the Chair and reportedly accordingly.
5.15 p.m.

ADJOURNMENT

Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move that this House do now adjourn for half an hour.
Mr. CRAWFORD: On the motion for the adjournment
Mr. SPEAKER: Are you seconding that
motion?
Mr. CRAWFORD: Yes Sir. Earlier in the
debate, which was reported to you by Mr. Chairman I was asked to take my seat when I requested a ruling from the Chairman on the legality of the procedure as to the Resolution before the House. Now, Sir, I am not attempting to qumtion the ruling of the Chair but I am asking Your Honour to be so good as to enlighten the House as to the correctness of the proceedings as regards the Resolution before us for $121,790. The Resolution is divided into two parts - (1) Part I, Current-- Head-xxxvi (New)Transport and (2) Part II, Capital A-Loan Funds, Road Transport.
My first point, Mr. Speaker, is that on reference
to the Estimates of Expenditure for the current year there is no Head XXXVI; therefore there could not iave been any expenditure involved under this Heal when we passed the Appropriation Bill. Secondly, Sir, the second part of the Resolution - Part II, Capital- calling for Capital expenditure to be raised from Loan Funds is wanted for the newly treated Transport Authority. The House has bee1 told that under Section 15 of the Transport Act, 1955, which sets up a Transport Board that the Board may, with the approval of the Governor-in. Executive Committee borrow by way of loan, overdraft or otherwise, such sums as the Board may require for meeting their obligations or discharging their functions under this Act.
I would like to say in passing that this Sectio',
-o which the Committee was referred by the Chair is establishing a local authority under which Government is providing it with money by way of this A esolntion. Am I to understand under the Section of the Act giving thi- Board approval to borrow money that it necessar'.1y can be interpreted to mean that the Government i intitled to come in here ainI Ivance money from the Public Treasury to tnme newly constituted Board without any reference ol. application by the Board itself for such a loan or without any legal sanction?
I respectfully submit, not merely to enlighten. i yself but in the interest of maintaining the traditionally correct procedure which this H=ouse aiway. upheld and in the in terest of the maintenance ,cu the part of Your Hor our of the right procedure being in operation at all times, and also or tile desire that the Other Place may nor regard us as not knowing what we are doing arid the House of Assem-


bly to be ridiculed ii_ public, that Notr Honour should give (and rather it is your bondened dutid to give) a clear ruling to the House on this issue.
Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member who has just spoken began by saying that he was not attempting to question the ruling of the Chairman. He then concluded by asking me to give a ruling.
Now, I would just like to read from May 4
Parliamentary Practice on page 235 (fifteenth ecti, tion) for the benefit of hon. members wno very f-requently call for the assistance of -Mr. speaker, when the affairs of the Committee are being conducted


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under the Chairman of Committees. That practice is becoming very frequent in this -louse and there is no validity whatsoever for it. Holn. members must understand that the Chairman of Coimittees has as much power when. he is in the Chair as Mr. Speaker, and there is no question of an appeal from the 'ruling of the Chairman of Committees to Mr. Speaker.
The passage from page 235 of May's which i want to read to you is as follows:
"The opinion of the Speaker cannot be sought in the House about any matter arising or likely to arise in a Committee."
If hon. members wanted Mr. Speaker's opinion as to what they may consider as an irregularity or ot a happening in Coinmittee, there is another provision in May's whereby they can go to him anc get a private opinion. In other words, this is not like a Court of Appeal where you appeal from the Chairman, of Committees to the Speaker.
The question that the House do now stand adjourn for half an hour was put avd resolved in the (affirmative without division and Mr. SpeakAer adjourned the House accordingly.

On re-assemibling,

QUESTION

Mir. F. E. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, before you begin the business of the House, I would like to ask the questions which I intended asking earlier.
There being no objeclion leave was granted the t'on. memb er.
Mr. F. E. -MILLER: I beg to give notice of tme following questions :-To esquire of thIe Ion. Minister of Communications, Works & Housing:Will the Hon. Minister consider the necessity ef having both the half-hour and hour 'bus service now operating on the Ellerton, Drax Hall route, passing through East Layne, (Blennan's Iill) St. George, (instead of having the hour bus pass through Old Works Hill) so as to improve the transport facilitles in the area
2. Will the M\inister also consider taking steps to have both the in and out night trips on this pare T_.ular route extended on Smndays and week days at least an hour or two later?
3. Will the minister exploit the possibilities .f a reduction on the fares of school-children using the said route, as is done on other routes? To enouire of the Hon. Minister ov communications ,
Works and H-ousing :
Will the H-oii. MVinister e on~ider the installathim c',_ standlposts in the followii district:; in St. G eorge
(l3 Cole Hfole
(2~ Cc" oss Roads" Sqouth District
(.f "CBlc1]mans lulTfil'' Bllerion.

COMMITTEE OF SoUPPLY C'TD.

H-on. Dr. H. G. Ht. CUMMKINS. M r. Speaker, the Chairmiai of. Committees will be a little late; and


I am going to move that the hon. senior member for Ft. Andrew be Chairman of Committees pro tein.
Hon. MA. E. COX: I beg to second that.
The queistiom was put and resolved in?. the affirlmafive without division.
Mr. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, before the House resumes Committee, T would like to ask Your Hononi" whether the Resolution under which we are going to resume Committee is in order. Some time in August Thst year we passed a vote for $30,000 for the Gov-


ernor-in-Exeeutive Committee to pay for gaso~cur, wages and for taking over the buses for a period .)t two weeks. Since that time no nioney Resolution under the Act of Parliament has been before this i-ouse. 'later on, we said the Transport Board should c:ave full power to borrow money or to raise loans as tiiey thought fit, and passed over the buses which lie Government had taken over to the Transport Board, which is in the same position, as let us say, a limited liability or any other kind of corporation except one created by Statute. In the Resolution which is before the House, Mr. Speaker, it speaks about the sum of $120,729 to be granted from the I-'ublic Treasury and placed at the disposal of the Governor-in-Executive Committee to supplement the Estimates 1956/57 Part I Current as shown in the Supplementary Estimates 1956/57, No. 9 which forms the schedule to this Resolution; and for Your Hoaour's information, on the vote which has already probably been drawn to Your Honour's attention, there is no such Supplementary Resolution, No. 9 other than the one presently engaging the attention e f the House. It would appear as merely carrying out something which we had already voted, whereupon we would be asked to vote this money when not even a token vote was inserted in the Appropriation Bill for this purpose; and although Section 15 of the Transport Board Act does give the Trans. port Board the power to borrow money, there
is no correlative power in the act to advance money from the Treasury. It is very, very important tia we should not appropriate money from the Treasury unless authorised by law or by an Amendment made (o the Appropriation Act itself, and therefore 1 would ask Your -onour's ruling as to whether we can rightly resume Committee on a matter which ;as been brought to the House in the proper way. Now, Sir, I have suggestions to make and probably they will fall on deaf ears, maybe because the understanding of members of the Government is imperfect .n financial matters, but there is nothing at all to event Government from coming here and asking for a loan to lend the Transport Board and then the Transport Board under Statutory authority and
inder statutory duty can then spend that money in such a way as they may- think fit. There is nothing L6 prevent them from doing that. Here is a Resolution for money to be taken from under two separate heads, one for Capital from Loan Funds and the other for Current Expenditure, all dealt with under the same Resolution. M\r. Speaker, there is something else to which I would like to draw your attention. The Appropriation Act has been passed. It is now aim Act ef Parliament, and there is no Head
316 at all. No wonder, therefore, that members will be misled when they see Head 36, Transport, something which was never provided for in the Appropriation Bill, and' my submission is, in. view of the submission which I have made, t hat it woulct be improper at this stage-not to say misleading and completely erroneos-t o resume Committee on tis matter which has not been brought to the Htouse inm a proper way. I would like to make the position


clear. We are only asking that the approval f Parliament be sought in a constitutional manner. L, was competent for the Government at the time ol the Annual Estimates to put in a token vote of one dollar to advance money from time to time out of the Treasury if the Transport Board needed it, and 1 dare say it would be competent to return to the House from time for an advance to the Transport Board on the Authority of the token Resolutionm which had been- inserted in the Appropriation Act


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That I do not question for one moment; but to take money out of your Public Treasury to the tune of $180,000 in this manner would be completely ir regular and unconstitational. I do not know w1'at reasons the Government had during the Estimates for leaving out Head 36 and not even putting in a token flesolution, but I would like to remind Your Ifonour that when money was Voted recently for the Transport Board, it was not ye- in existence. It was an emergency. You can say we are going to lend money for this purpose and that. That is the position, Sir, and therefore I would be very glad if Your Honour would give some direction-at this stage which is a completely new phase in the debate which the Gov ermuent now seeks to take.
Mr. SPEAKER,: The hon. member has asked for a ruling regarding the legality of the Committee committing itself to the expenditure involved in the Resolution. I must point out to the hon. member as I earlier .pointed out, to the ho'n. senior member for St. Philip. that the Chairman has already made a ruling. This.Chamber is no place for double rulings. In May's Parliamentary Treatise, Fifteenth Edition Chapter 12, Page 235" "The opinion of the Speakei cannot be sought in the House about any matter arising or likely to arise in Committee."
If I happened to have been in the Chair and f gave a ruling which-was not pleasing to hon. membe, s, they have it in their power to deal with me on a1 substantive motion. Similarly, when the Chairman is in his Chair and, he happens to give a ruling which is displeasing to the Committee, they can on a sUbDstantive motion deal with time Chairman. I do not intend in spite of the elaborate explanation given by t he hon. senior member for St. George to give a Ruling. All that the hon. member is saying points to the fact that he disagrees with the ruling of th Chairman.
6.15 p.m.
saMr. CRIAWFOITD: On, a point of Order
Mr. SPEAKER: There is no point of Order: the honm. member is out of Order to speak at this
-'-tage. I am about to put the question.
The question that the hon. senior" nleenbcr for St. Andrew be Chairaan of Coniitfees doriag th,, absence of the Chair'man of Comrmitte;s was pat ald resolved in the affirntative without division.
Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair and ihc Hov,,? resumed Committee of Supply, Mrs. -BOURNE being ?i the Chair.
Transport Ct'd.

Mr. CRAWFORD: Madame Chairnian ,Hon. M. E. COX:-Madam Chairman. 1 had not finished speaking on Ikle adjournment.
MADAM CIIAIRMAN: On, the adjourmnment. the hon . senior member for St. M{ichael, tlin Hen. .'lnister of Communicat ions, was socalin?.
Mr. CIRA'W'FO'RD� Madam Chairma, n ',
position is this: the Chairman of Comniittees specifically gave an ude 'taking that dunningi the inteim o.f the adjournment, he-would give a Rifling'.
MVADAM CIIAI Ei\AN- Will the hon. member


take his seat and allow the hon. senior member for .-t. Michael to continue speaking?
Mr. CRAWFORD: On a point of Order. I regard it as being more than an accideni. that t)'A Chairman of Conmittees has not resumed the Chair.
MADAM CHAI]RMAN: Is that a point of Order 9 Mr. CRAWFORD: I ani going on to explain. When the Ilon. Leader of the House made the mnomn Cor the adjournment. the Chairman of Committee.-s


welcomed it and said that he would use the interinR o0 the adjournment to give the Hiouse an explanat'on of the matter then before it. Now that the
-house has resumed its sitting. the Chairman (. Committees is not to be found; he has disappeared.
MADAM CHAIRM11JAN. I am not entertainiiig
what the hon. member is saying; the hon. senior
_.oember for St. Micha(1 may proceed.
Mr. CR,-AWFORD: These tricks cannot al wy be successful.
lio,n. M. E. COX- On the adjournment, rlia'd1 got down to the poift where the Government had been, keeping separate accounts in respect of the various-, .'oncessions taken over. I pointed out that the answer To that particular question asked by the horn junior member for Christ Church as to whether the Gover-. ment had been keeping separate accounts in respect of the various is-en over, was "Yes". I have' ;]lreadv said that there was a deficiency of $95,000. That answers the lltb question aslked by the hon. member.
I should like at this stage to say that in addi-. lion to the matter of the purchasing" of this Diesel iotor Bus, quite recei-,tjy-last week, I should sayI was interviewed by 1 representative of Faulkner s /C-npany Limited of England who re-condition buses and sell them. They are buses similar to those which were recently imported by the Lincoln Bus C op:Ny"Some of these buses are gasolene motors. The reDre. tentative pointed out that these buses are obtainable. for approximately 83,800 each. It has been decided to consult the Crown Agents with a view to finding out whether these buses are of the type which, are suitable' for this purpose. The reason for that is obvious.
Soon after these buses were taken over-it was. about three months after-the Director of Highways ,and Transport represented that we would need at least 51 new units to improve the' Transport service,. I-and recently we have been pressed by the Transport Board for an additional 15 .units. As you will see, l\Iadam Chairman, units at $25,000 each will represent a colossal sum, and it is hoped that we would obtain some of these re-conditioned units provided, of' course that they are in a first-class condition and have a life of 5 to 7 years. Having regard to our financial commitments, it may be that we could purch-ase a few of these buses so as to carry on the Transport service. I should like to emphasize that it is not theGovernment's intention to purchase any more gasolene motors. We have found-that Trinidad is concentrating very seriously on these Diesel motors, and so is the case of Jamaica.
llonourable members are aware of the fact that in ,Jamaica the British Electric Traction Company controls the King'ston and St. Andrew areas, and that Company is solely responsible for the Trans. po'rtationi service in those areas. I think they have over 80 or 90 of these motors, Mr. [E. D. MOTTLEYT1hat is private enterprise] and the Government sub sidises that Comnany very heavily in that the unaits are imported duty free; gasoline, tyres, s pgre parts, everything they get free of duty". You can quite


understand to what extent that Company is being subsidised by the Government. All these units are Diesel motors. and as I pointed out earlier, in Trinidad, they are also concentrating on the use of these Piesel motors. I think that we should fall into line with, these Colonies in this matter. As vonu know. quite a number of people who visit these Islands will not be in a position to hire taxis, and they would like to sit in comfortable and modern coaches. It is therefore proposed to concentrate on these Diesel motors and, as I have already said, if these units arc good, the Government will at a. later stage -cone ti,









JANUARY 3, 1957 OFFICIAL GAZETTE 197


this House and, ask for a sum of money to, purchase a certain number of them.
I have a brochure of these re-conditione 1 "Diesel" motors as well as of the re-conditioned "Bedford" motors which I will pass around to honourable
members.
6.25 p~m.
In my closing remarks, I would like to assure honourable members that I have outlined as lucidly as possible the bus transport system as it is today, and I would like to say what we all know and must admit: that the transport services in general in this island are not as up-to-date as we would like. But that has always been the case. It is quite easy for people to criticise the Government and we have q4it c a few who are ahlways eager to throw" mud at the Government whenever the opportunity avails itself.
One would have thought, reading the Advocate newspaper sometime ago, that no bus owner ever re.paired any buses at all, because in an issue of that newspaper, there were pictures of at least four Chassis of buses out of which the engines were taken for repairs. I am sure that the former owners had repaired those engines and in doing so, had lifte, them out of the chassis and had done other things, but according' to the Advocate, it appears as, only since the Government took over the buses that repairs are effected to them.
From time to time people have spoken of the inconvenience experienced in getting buses on schedule. That 'complaint has also been made against the former bus owners, and more so in their case. I am sure, Madam, Chairman, we are providing today a better service than was formerly provided. For example, of the ten buses which we took over froin the Progressive Bus Company, the owner used wnly four regularly; t he others were on,,y used at peak hours and excursions. We ran all ten. I can tell this Comnittee that people from as far as Martins Bay have come to me and said lio- much they a.preclate the service which the Government is givimni them. They halve said that in the days before QoV. crmnent took the, buses over they could only, get a mid-day bus to take them to Martins Bay. I have letters written to me telling me of the improvement in that service and that the people from down there can now 'get a ,mid-day bus. I have also information f'om people in St. Philip as well as from- St. hIartholomew to the effect that people front that parof the country had to walk as far down as Oistius on many occasions to get a bus when the former concessionaires were operation on those routes. Nowadas they get at least a half-houirlv bus service passing that way. I cami speak froi umy own experience of1 time Collynmore Rock Route. Sometimes von hind to wait am hour' before you got a bus on that route when time fom~ruer owners were operating those uses; now, you oet onme ahuost every quarter hon., Left amid igoht, L.ladam Chhirnman, there have been quite a lo,, of improvements: but it must be appreciated that never mind how rich a Govrernnment or a conces siouaire umay be, lie cammnot provide buses in sufficient, nmunber to meet the needs of peak hours when tuose hours arrive. There will always be people waitig to get buses to take thqm to amid from work in the mornimig between 7 o 'clock amid 8 o 'clock, amid in time


afternoon between 4 o'clock and 5 o'clock, because i will be unecononmical for one to lffud sufficient buses I t(. take off the people at those peak hours. As far a I can see, that situation will remain so for a lone time.
Madam Chairma,1. I am sure that the bus se. vice has improved. I think when lessrs Eckstein Bros. used to run buses, they had 39 and of that number they used 20 regularly; the reiaiider we.vsed for charter bus purposes, and afew weire taken


out to be used at the peak hours. Nowadays, of that #,ervice, we run 30, and only one or two are kept. to relieve a bus if it breaks down.
I do know that whenever you get changes you will get opposition. I do know that there has been q aite a lot of opposition whipped up against the ; overmnent and against the Transport Service by people who do not want to see the Government run,lii g that service. The Press and big business .no doubt, have been ,behind this and have beei.n usir, g their influence on this bus business. I want'to say tiat eTven recently there has been a great all-round improvement. It has been found necessary to repri'nand, discipline and in some cases dismiss certain employees of the Transport Board, and I know that ,tome members will raise these questions: but again, t wish to say that in all undertakings such as tha, yoU will no doubt find some "bad eggs" among the crowd, and you will have to weed them out as quickly is possible. I think I an correct in saying that there were some employees o this Board wbo were dismssed by some former employers who could not be employed by those concessionaires for half a minute. After the Transport Board took over the buses, the nmes of those persons were submitted to the Board for employment. Well, the reason for that is obvious; , therefore, it is necessary to do some cleaning up.
I will assure hon. members that the situation at, the Transport Board is nothing like what is repre. sented in the Press, by people who no doubt do not mwant to see the bus service run by the Government, and by people whose only aim is to throw mud at the Government.
I want tb assure tbis Coniniittee that nothing whicl has been said against me or this Government: can stick anywhere because we are sure that we have ven acting in the interest 0f the people, bearing i, mind the cost of living and that we do not want to Ao anything to increase it. As a matter of fact, we aid in the Five Year Plan that we were not going to,. increase bus fares and we stuck to,:that.
6.35 p.m.
No amount of criticism, abuse, lies. slander or anything like that will ever change any intention [ bare about anything. r want that to be known crystal dlear. None at all! I :lm accustomed to slander and it can go on indefinitely; it just rolls off, like water oil a duck's back. I pay it no attention; at all as long aa I am satisfied the thinflg is right: and in the interest of the community and more particularly in the interest of the poorer class of people especially, 1 am prepared to sup pom.t it.
I beg to move tha;; this Resolution do'now pass.
Hon. C. E. TALL/iA: I beg to second that.
Mr. GODDARD:-Madam Chairman, if we wero' attending a Company Meeting instead of this Assem]:ly, anti this were the Annual General Meetin, after time display of the Directors which are thn 3',.inisters and the Government, they would be-calle~d oni to resign, each anti everyone. In a private companmy they would hax e to get out and that is the big difference between. nationalised industries and private enterprise companies. For the Minister to


,et up here for the past two hours or more and even Uf the very end to sa-, that the bus service today i. better than when it was taken over; well, each ani every member in this Chamber including the gallery �an answer that. Madam Chairman, I realised the nature of this debate and for that reason I furiished the Minister wit.h a series of questions whi,. i I told him i1 would be requiring him to answer today. I gave them to him this morning in writing so that he could prepare them, and I am going to read them


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


197'


JAN, AP-y3, 1957









198 OFFICIAL GAZETTE JANUARY 3, 1957


because le has attempted to answ -r sone, but 1 L:otice when he got dwu to No. 12 he stol)ped.
The first question was: "What is the policy of the Government in connection with the Transport of the island ?"
The answer to that is still "they do iot know.' They have declared today that they have not taktn over for the purpose of nationalisation. They just took them over because they said they had to. They did not have to. They took them over because th, claimed that the concessionaires were making adequate profits, and they were not prepared to me:',c ,he fares of the publi, and they were goiig to show the concessionaires and: the public that they caii d.) a better job. Well, have they done a better job?
Question 2 is "'how many concessions were there on the 10th August, 1955?"
Mr. Chairman resetied ithe Chair at this point.
Mr. TUDOR: I rise on -a point of Order. Whien Your Honour was last sitting iin that seat, you left u, with the promise that you would seek clarification on the issue and that when you returned to your place would give it to us. Are you not in a position to favour this Comm ittee with the ruling you sought?
Mr. CHAIRMAN- The honourable member
wanted to know the reason for Head XXXVI. There was no such head XXXVI in the Estimates. In. this particular Resolution the amount being asked for is a new Head and the Government saw fit to bring it under Head XXXVI because there is nowhere in the Estimates to put it. They had to bring in a Resolution under a II cad and it being a new Head they brought it under Head XXXVI.
Mr. BARROW: Mir. Chairman, ona point of Order. What is the senior member for St. Michal doing behind you?
Mr. CHAIR MAN. Allow me to speak if you want me to speak. The ilon. member must take his oeat. Head XXXVI formerly was Transport Board, now merged with the Department of Highways and Transport [A VOICE: In what way ? 1 Don't you E tow the way? Head XXXVI is new so that is the reason for Head XXXVI that they are referring to.
Mr. BARROW: I do not think you understand the question on which I sought Your Honour's raling, I did not know you were going to. coie back and consult the senior member for St. Michael.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I have not consulted the
-member for St. Michafl.
Mr. BARROW:I am sorry, I did not know
he would gratuitously offer his advice.
Mr. CIAIRMAN: I would like to warn .you
that you should not accuse people of things. That mind of yours you s hould leave at the bottom or the stairs when you come here.
Mr. BARROW:-Wh.at I ant saying. M r. Chairtian, is that the estimates you have before you are not for the present financial year because there is noq Head for Highways and Transport in the Estimnafes. for this year; but moreover, Your Honour will und;, stand, I do not think I made myself sufficiently cear en the issue I was putting for Your H onour's ruli'v: and it was this: under what authority was this ResoIntion being set now before the H~ouse. not where wa s '.Tead XXXYI, because I know there was no Iheadi


XXXVI? I am asking under what statutory
authority you are asking to take money out of th Treasury.
Mr. CHAIRMTAN . You said there was no Head XXXVI.
Mr. BARROW:- I explained to you il could iime come under Head XXXVI because there was no Head XXXVI and I want an indication under what statutory authority this money is to be voted. All the money in the Estimates for 1956-57 was voted


cy this House in the Appropriation Bill which is. now the law of the land. That is the point which I was making. I do not think you understand or I did not make myself sufficiently clear.
If there is no Head XXXVI in the Estimates,. tben there is no law. Therefore, I would like to know wonder which law we are expecting the Colonial Treasurer to pay out this money.
6.45 p.m.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I take it that after we havepassed the Estimates and you want 1o bring down a Resolution for money, you would have to bring. it down. under a certain Head and this is a new :Head. In other words, I would have to say thatihis is new money. [L.aughter].
Mr. BARROW: I do not know whether they arcgeing to print this money or not. [Laiughter froin ;Uhe Visitors' Gallery].
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I would liki to say a few words to the visitors in the Gallery. The visitors i11 he Gallery are not allowed to shout or to laugh Whsnthey are there; they must sit quietly and listen to the debates.
Mr. BARROW: Mr. Chairman, perhaps tho
,;ocular manner in which you answered the questio-i provoked mirth. However, that is by the way. I would like to know what is the leval sanction for his expenditure of public funds out of the Treasury. I am not asking for the Head of the Estimates which they have invented, and you have suggested that they ire inventing the money as well; I think I have made. � aiyself quite clear. Th,. Appropriation Act authorises ii.oney to be take-n out of the Treasury for the yearP, and unless you have a Supplementary ResolutioL 'or something which is already in the Act, you can:;ot create a new Heal in this way. I do not think hat you should allow yourself to be misled by the blandishments of any of the members on that side f the House; they cannot make the illegal legal.
Hon. G. 1. ADAMS: I think that this farceo tas gone on quite long- enough. I have told the hon. member before that whatever happens in the Law Courts. let him keep out of law when in the House, because whenever he opens his mouth on the law, tie is always wrong. What has the hon. member said ? TIe says that once you Lave passed an Appropriation Act, you cannot spend any more money.
Mr. BARROW: The hon. member is buildinoip a thesis to destroy himself. He is misquoting me: is he giving a Ruling?
Hon. G. I. ADAMS: The hon. member said. J:hat outside the Heads of the Estimates and the :\ppropriatioo Act, yom. cannot spend any money. We. vril all see what he said when the R eport of the l ebates comes out. [Mr. BARROW: You will. have. dited the debates by that time.] Anybody who has. been called to the Bar should be ashamed to let what the hon. member has said come ou't of his nomuth. The Crown, can conic to the House aned ask Cor money at aiiy tinie: you do iiot pas~s a law sayingthat the Crown can ask for money. It is nao wonder t]h.t we get these guffaws from the hon. senior mere-


ber for St. Philip and the honourable junior member for St. Lucy. We have passed the Estimates, and we put a sun of money in the Appropriation Act; that money is appropriated to the service of the Crown for the year. On the day after,-you may have a disaster,. it may be a hurricane or, suddenly, you nmay make up your miid to set up an Atom- Bomb Station or anything you like.If you haxe not got a Head in the Estimates, nnst vou not create a new Head? The Draughtsman remembered that we used to have a Head in connection with Transport; tha t Head was wiped out because the Transport Board was amalgamated with the Highways Board. You have a gap


OFFICIALGAZETTE


JANUARY 3, 1957


198









JANUARY 3, 1957 OFFICIAL GAZETTE 190


tetween Head XXXV and Head XXXVI of the
Estimates, aand what is more appropriate than to create a new Head which would be a I-lead in respect of Transport? I would guarantee that the average bright child who comes in here, and knows anything as to how money is spent by the Government would be able to answer the question. No such ehiid could possibly say that you need a Statute to enable the Crown to come to the Legislature for money. [M[r. BARROW: For this money.] You do not need any ,Statute for any money for which you are asking.
If there is no Statute creating a Head, then you ask fora Supplementary vote under a new Head. We come down for a Sipplemnentary Estimate and ;put in a fresh Head; We can put in the Head "Atom Bomb Research". The honorable member would then ask: "Where is the authority for do6g that?" Mr. Chairman, do youl think that I feel happy, being a Barrister myself, when I hear a man who has been ,.called to the Bar making such elementary mistakes which a boy attending a Primary school should be ashamed of making, and apparently being taken seri,ously? I repeat: the Crown can ask for money at any time for anything, and it is up to Parliament to abolish it or grant it. For somebody who, as far as we know has been called to the Bar, to ask for the :Statutory authority under which the Crown has asked for money, and complain that in a new Resolution you have not got any Head under which to put it, well, I do not know that anything could be more farcical than -that. This tells you that it needs a new I-lead because no old Head is there. It is time to stop this sort of thing, Election year or no Election year; it is time for anybody to stop displaying such invincible ignorance as the honourable member displays.
Mr. BARROW: TThe honourable member has made a reference, to my legal ability. If I am not displaying that ability, he must be a little patient with me. It did not take me the long number of years which it took him to get through the Bar Finals, because I was a bit more in a hurry than he was. I should like to say that personal abuse is no answer to criticism and the sooner the honourable member learns that., the better it will be for him. He took the longest time to qualify at the Bar; with, such depravity coming from that side of the House from a man who has won a Scholarship illegally, well, such a person would not be concerned with the exigencies of Parliamentary procedure at this stage. If the foundation was bad, then the superstructure must be also bad.
For the honourable member to get up and give a ruling for Your Hom~our is an attempt to subvert the authority of the Chair. Of course, if Your lionour accepts, the ruling, well, I will accept it. Let him get up and tell his colleagues and his satellites how much time he took to do his Bar Exams.
6.55 p.m.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am appealing to the lhonourable member.
H~on. G. HI. ADAS: For the honourable member 's benefit, although it is purely personal, but for his satisfaction let him go and look up the records and hme will see that I never began to take my Bar' Exam-


ihations until my last year. I read la w atf Oxford University but that has nothing to do with that. Before the honourable member begins to raise his points let him look up the records.
Mr. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman,
Mr. CiAIRMIAN: The honourable junior member for Christ Church will continue to speak.
Mr. CRAWFORD: ,Mr. Chairman, I am enti�tled to make a personal explanation.
M r. CHAIRMAN: The honourable senior member for St. Philip is out of order.


Mr, CRAWFORD: Am I not entitled to make an explanation?
Mr. CHAIRMIAN: I am saying that you are out of order.
Mr. CRAWFORD: How am I out of order?
MNr. CHAIRMAN: I am saying that the honourable junior mentber for Christ Church will conLinue to speak.
Mr. CRAiWFORD: I am entitled to make a personal explanation now.
Mr. CHAIR\IAN: I am asking the honourable senior member for St. Philip for the second time to take his seat and to let the honourable junior member for Christ Church continue to speak.
TMr. GODDARD: Mr. Chairman,
Mr. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, I am saying
Ir. CHAIRMAN: The honourable senior menber for St. Philip must take his seat. The honourable junior member for Christ Church gave way for the honourable junior member for St. Lucy. I am saying that the honourable junior member for Christ Church must continue to speak.
Mr. CRAWFORD: Who gave way for the honourable senior member for St. Joseph? He just got up and ran the Chair and everything. I have nevei heard this thing in Parliament all my life.
M\Tr. CHAIRMAN: For the third time I am call., ing on the honourable senior member for St. Philip to take his seat and to allow the honourable junior member for Christ Church to finish his speech. The hc-nourable senior member for St. Philip will have Inis opportunity to speak later.
Mr. GODDARD: Mr. Chairman, my second question was how many Concessionaires applied on the 10th August, 1955 and in the reply by the Hon, Minister of Communications, he said that there were fourteen.
Mlr. CRAWFORD: MTr. Chairman, I am entitled to rise on a point of explanation.
Mr. CHAIRM7AN: On what is the honourable member speaking?
Mr. CRAWFORD: I am speaking on a point of explanation. The honourable senior member for St. Joseph in his fulminations against honourable mem. bears referred to the honourable junior member for St. Lucy and myself because we could not agree wvith his reasoning on the Resolution before us. He went on to say that if the Government wanted to set up and Atom Bomb Research Station they could bring in a new Head and ask for the money to set it up. Re is perfectly correct because we have no Atom Bomb Research Station.
ir. CHIAIRMVAN: Is that a point of explanation ?
Mr. CRAWFOR D: I want to explain to, th~e sat isfaction of the I-ouse and the Committee as wel as the honourable senior member for St. Joselph 'that it does nlot mean by one passing his Bar Examination that lie 'has all rihe sense. If, Mr. Chairman, you haJ previously created an Atom Bomb Research Aullthority .
M.r. CHAIRMAN: That is not a point of explan a~iu .


Mr. CRAWFORD: Am I not entitled to explain
-for the benefit of the Committee ? I merely got up to show the waste of time of the village lawyer. I was saying, Sir, that previously in this House when we, had a. question as regards expenditure of that Transport Board Authority we were told by the Hon. Minister of Commiunications that he could not answer the question then; he had to wait until he got a statement from the authority. In other words, having once established an authority, in financial matters concerning that authority you must get a statement from that authority itself first.


J i'uARY 3-,- 1957


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


190


t90








20_FIIL1AET [ua ,15


Hon. M. E. COX: MJTr. Chairman, I rise on a point of Order. I think the honourable member is misleading the Committee. What I said then was that the matter was sub judice and that according!to the Transp ort Act, a statement of expenditure must b4 laid on the Table of the House at the end of the Year's working of the Transport Board. I have never said What the honourable member has just said.
Mr. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, the honour,able member was asked about the expenditure of the Board.
Mr. CHAIRVfAN: That is not a point of explanation. You got up to reply to the remarks about village lawyers.
Mr. CRAWFORD: 'Well, I am telling you
ow---,
Mr. CHAIRMfAN: You got up. and said that i ou wanted to give a personal explanation and , gave you the opportunity.
Mr. CRAWFO%RD: I have not made it yet.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: Well make it now.
Mr. CRAWFORD: For the honourable meinber to come in here and abuse people
Mir. CHAIRMAN: You got up to make A
personal explanation; do_ m e it now.
Mr~t. CRAWFORd): I am suggesting that thl honourable senior member for St. Joseph has attempt.ed to plll matters of procedure in this House dowi;. to the level, which one does not associate with this Parliament. WV-hen the;time coues [ Iwill rely to the nonsense he talked about the legality of the Resolution, because he knows it is not right. At this stage, Mr. Chairman, I am justified in qjioting, what he said.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: You can speak on that until morning when your turn comes. Allow the honourable junior member for Christ Church to continue.
Mr. GODDARD: Mr. Chairman, the next question -- Question 4 - is to the effect as to what purpose the Government took over these concessions. Was it for the purpose of granting new and equivalent concessions? The' Hon. Minister replied by saying "no." He said that they did not take them over with that view. I am saying that they did. Some applications were made but they were not entertained.
Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman, I did not say anything about they were not entertained. I made it crystal clear that they were not attended 'to bcause we did not know how much the buses 'wer4 worth. I said that the applications still hold good up to today.'
7.05 p.m.
Mr. GODDARD: He took them over to
prove to the public that they could run them better tchant the existing concessionaires and at the same time to make a profit. Well, he has failed miserably in both. We have a much worse transport service to-day and it goes back to the type of transport when we had the fly buses. It is tantamount to tihat, and if his removal to Bay Street has caused him not to realise the hardships on the travelling public in Bridgetown, 1 would invite him at half past three any afternoon to leave the Ministerial Buldings and come down in his car and ,watch outside here or opposite Dr. Storey's and see 1how


the public gets home and say whether it is his idea that the twently-five minutes or hour and a half spent in the morning to catch a bus and another hour and a half to catch a bus back home is deservingi of keeping the fares down by half-cent. That is his econcrics, but I believe each and every person of the travelling public were prepared and are prepared to pay to get a ride ho:.ne or to work as soon as they come out of their doors as possible, but that does not obtain today. It has got worse: and with this stateinent that the buses are in better shape than they


n erc with the old concessionaires. I am only going to make this one statement and say how false that is. How many buses have been licensed today. Now, tc day is the 3rd of July, and in the month of June every vehicle should be licensed and in the former days they were licensed when owned by private. individuals and those existing concessionaires today have licensed everyone. Today out of 116 buses whici4 they have-I will admit they have some in the grave yard, and they have some with :engines out--I would like to. know how many are licensed. I have made enquiries and I will tell him. In St. Michael they have licensed 34. Now, you have 106 buses and may be you have licensed some in the other parishes, but surely with 34 buses licensed today you are doing something and breaking the law that no concessiona-ire could have done. Under the old practice, concessionaires had to have their buses up to standard. in June when they would go to the Parochial Treasurer with their forms, from the Transport Board and their Insurance certificates, to pay their licences. Todays youhave licensed 34 in the parish of St. Michael. Of' course, I will allow for some that might bfe licensedd in St. Philip or some other parish. What are the others doing? Are you telling me that the buses are running without licences and that it is a better system than the old on-e? You may draw your conclusions but the public will draw them differently. That is what is happening today! I do not know if they are licensed aad the pedestrians are becoming patientn. That is the type of transport we have today. .What are the reasons for Government retaining certain concessions and yet making application for funds for the nationalisation of the island trans. port service.? This is nine months since the taking over of the buses and we have heard for the first time they hope that at the earliest moment they will uifnd someone frcom somewhere after their operation who will take over those buses and run the service as they direct. Well, they have found someone to take back his buses and the honourable memtuber has proved today that that man is a very happy mar who was i-aking money and whose intention it was not to give up his buses. fie said the gentleman took then back as they were at the time. Now, I am in a position to state that that is also false. They were directed over at the Transport Board to put these buses in top form, and if necessary to put in new engines; and I understand there were some new engines put in, and I do know they worked on them into, the wee hours of the morning and delivered them at 12 o'clock. T do not think they could have delivered all at the same time because they were not in good condition to hand them back. So when the Minister get up and says thmat the former proprietor was anxious to get them back and took them as they were, that is contrary to. what we know to. be the facts. They were worked on and actually a direction went out to the mechanics to put them in top shape and if necessary put in new engines. [A VOICE: From J & R?] You cannot throw any red-herring across my trail; I will continue with this. I know it hurt and it would hurt any MKinister who had feelings to have to take what he has to take today, but he has started off wrong, he has continued wrong, and he is still hblundering on.


Hon. G. If. ADAMS: I aan sorry to interrupt the honourable .member but can he tell me since when thze Transport Board is a Government Deprtment?
7.15 p.m.
Mr. GODDARD: It is directed as if it were a Government Department. It has gone from bad to worse; it was conceived in spite and nothing will succeed that is taken over like that.
The honourable member made a statement, and he read out that the Commission of Enquiry had


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said that they were unable to arrive at adequate conclusions because some of the Concessionaires were unable to furnish adequate figures. However, the honourable member did not say that there was at least one Concessionaire who could have furnished every conceivable figure which they could have wanted and did furnish it; he could have come to conclusions from that Report of Concessionaires, but he neglected to say that. I am pointing out that they have two Reports, one from the Director of Highways and Transport, and one from their appointed Committee, but they went against the express views of the Committee's Report and they sail that they were bringing somebody from Trinidad to make a third Report. Where are we going? jWhen ti-s person has finished reporting and he tells you te put the Transport system of this Island on a proper footing-- you will have to do that some day--it may cost you $4 million or $5 million, and what are you going to say? Are you going to get rid of the existing conditions under which the Transport system is operated now? Are you going to turn back the Transport service to be run by the former Coneessionaires or even new Concessionaires?
'The Auditor has made a Report to the end of March and the figures quoted show a loss by this Transport Department of the sum of $170,000. [Hon. 1K4. E. COX: That is not true.] I am surprised to hear the Hon. Minister say that the Board has only lost $95,000, and he went on to explain that most of that money was due to increase wages and salaries of the employees. Some day, we will know the whole story. Twelve months will soon be up; we still have three more months to go. I can only hope that we will have profit and loss accounts properly audited as soon as possible and that will be another imposition even bigger than this one; many of the facts which are being withheld today will be exposed on that occasion.
I asked the Hon. Minister if, when the Transport Board took over these concessions, they operated them individually, and his answer to that question was T'Yes". If that is so, then he could have gone on to answer my further questions. These are the important ones which he did not answer; question No. 11 was: "If so, will Government state what profits and or losses were made in respect of each concession retained?" That question has not been answered; perhaps, he will give the information to me up to the end of December or March or to the end of May. From my own deductions, I do not know where they are going. My next question was thi. "What is the gross revenue from fares, advertising and other sources?" That would be up to the end of T arch or June. I would be grateful if these figares were available because we should be in a positon o know the other things we are going to have.
The next question was this: "What were the expenses in respect of the following :- (a) Repairs,
(b) Licences; (c) Rent, Light, water and telephone,
(d) Salaries, (e) Stationery and printing; (f) lnsurance (g) Wages; (h) Gasolene and Oil; (i) Tyres and tubes; (j) Legal and accident suits; (k)Depreciation on buses; (1) Depreciation on Machinery: m) Depreciation on Furniture ; (n) Depreciation on


Tools."
The Hon. Minister has not furnished one fig-:in respect of any of these items, yet he told us that they have kept the accounts separately for each concession taken over. I would like to know how' they could have kept separate accounts for each concession when I have seen, a National bus up in Oistins and in Cave Hill, and indeed as far afield as St. Philip? f do not know if these accounts are kept in respect of each bus or group of buses in respect of each rout.


Question No. 14, was this: "Are there any outstanding debts? If so, what is the amount of such debts, and to whom are they owing?" [Hon. M. B. COX: "J & R." is included] [Laughter] I am very pleased to know that [ am included, but if the hon. member kept accounts like that,. even up to the end of March, he would have furnished the information, but he has not done so.
The next question was this (a) "How many of the buses at present retained by Government have passed the annual inspection? (b) How many are in operation to date? (c) How many are unserviceable?'
Do you not think that that would have been helpful information to be given even at 12 o'clock today? Can the hon. member furnish that information even at this late hour?
At this stage it would be interesting to note that under the Transport system of this Island, buses nave to be inspected by the Police every quarter. lave the Police inspected any of these buses during the last two quarters prior to this one? It is within my knowledge that this inspection has lapsed, and we are only now having a partial annual inspection (f these buses. The danger to the travelling public and to pedestrians is bt'coming greater, and we have an improved bus service according to the standard of the Hon. 2Minister of Transport!
The last question I asked the Hon. Minister was this: "By what authority and under what conditions were the Progressive Buses handed 'back to Mr. Birch?"
Well, I have dealt with that matter already, anat, Mr. Chairman, you have heard what the Hon. Minister has said; he has said that the Progressive buses were handed back to Mr. Birch under the same couditions and the same state in which they were when he applied on the last occasion.
7.25 p.m.
Hon M\I. E. COX: I did not say that.
Mr. GODDARD: You said that they were returned to him and he was so anxious to get them ;ack that he took tham as they were. [A VOICE: With new engines.] Yes, with instructions to tlie mechanics to have them put in top condition even if new engines had to be put in them.
Hon). M. E. COX: Who gave those instructions?
Mr. GODDARD: Mr. Chairman, the finister's whole defence of the Transport System has been the type of criticism that the employers in. Barbados are the most vicious and scandalous imaginable he has known. He attempts to say that the Transport System as run by the Transport Board has been sabotaged by .big business. That has been his whole defence. He attempts to say that they have got into his difficulty because of big business trying to i.r,timidate the employees of the Transport Board so as to see that the conditions over there are unfavonrutble as can be. Of coarse he includes the Press. He is trying to throw mud on somebody. It is a most vicious tliin2 to do and if that were the attitude &' Governments in the past, not only business in this Island but business in the other neighbouring Islands will be afraid to have dealings with this Government because they will never know what they are going


to get. 'When you are wrong, say that you are wrong.
The gentleman from Trinidad whom they are now asking to come and give them a third report is the Licensing Authority of that colony. Did he not visit here a few months ago (it might be for two days) t9 give the Government a little idea of what type of transport would be more suitable for this Island? I was very pleased to hear the Hon. Minister say that this gentleman spoke highly of the type of buses we have operating here and the system that is now operated in Trinidad as well as in Jamaica, but the Honi. Minister did not tell us that th3


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"transport system both in Trinidad and Jamaica I. being run privately an(d iiot by Government. Tho,-e two colonies had a (Government Transport system formerly and they both failed; so both of those GoVernmen.ts eventually realised that running a traisfort service was something for private industry to do; so they turned it over to private enterprise.
At one moment he says that the former cones sionaires made money out of the business and w.11 continue to make mo10eV under the existing condit.ions, but after that he comes back and tells us that although Government is running a better service, it is losing money. Is it not that Government. cannot run the system ?
I will draw to his attention that the Vestry of St. Michael has not got one penny from the Govern. ment this year by way of taxation on the transport system. In the past we have been in the happy posit. ion. of getting trade returns from the concessionaire, who operated in St. Michael. When the Vestry of Sid. Michael was laying its rates this year it expected to get trade tax on something like $30,000 profit from, the bus companies. When the Assessor approach(.] the Transport Board -or its trade returns and tht Vestry was hoping and expecting from the Board a trade return because Government said that they would make money a d that was the reason they took them over, the Assessor came back to the Vestry and said that the Board reported a loss [A VOICE: Who said that?] 'That meant that the Vestry of St. Michael has not received one peniy from the bus business this year although all along, from the time Messrs Eckstein Bros. were runino the buses, bus companies have paid taxes in St Michael. Now, the first year that G-covernment has taken them over, they have returned a loss, and as a result, they are not paying any taxes. They are using a Government Department, the workshop of th-1 Department of Highways and Transport, they hav-. had~already $30,000 which is already gone and th, have come now for $110,000 which is an amoriunt that can only buy tyres and all of that, to run the Transport service. Do you not realise that this amount which you have come for is inadequate? You should at least come for a sum to carry you through to, the end of the year. Is it your intention to run otp
bills in order to carry en
Mr. Chairman, I do not have to say much more on the existing transport system and the types of buses, because apart from the Hon. M"".nister Transport, everyone else realises that the buses a,: not only dirty, filthy and want painting badly but the engines want repairing because they misfire, back-fire, catch afire and stop oni the roads daily. I. s seldom a morning that I come to work that theL'e is not a bus on the road waiting for something to tow it back i,'to the yard of the Highways and Trans.port.
If I may get on with the other parts of Piet Resolution,, I see tha:, Government has come down for $25,000 to buy a single diesel bus to show the public what comfort in travelling really means. When you buy that one bus, I hope you will take into account the size of the buts and that you will not have to bring down a Bill to aniend the presemit


law to make provision for a vdder size bus. Does Government feel satisfied that this type of bus which you are getting down is the right type? You say thai you are getting it for the public to see the type e comfort in travelling they ill get in the future. I that a little hold-out to the public so that when thc, time comes for Govern-Ment to say that it wants 120 of those buses to put the public transport on a proper system that the people will be in a better mood to ask their representati-ves to vote the money, and let


something else that they have promised in the past t- the people wait a little longer?
However, Sir, we will wait for the report of this gentleman who is to come from Trinidad. Gov ernment has stated tonight that it is not their intention to nationalise the bus service of this Island and that they are hoping as soon as a settlement as to the payment of these buses is reached that they will find ,concessionaires who will come forward to take back certain of these bus routes and run tbem.
7.35 p.m.
But lie goes on today and says that Gcverinment intends to keep a few. What purpose would that serve if they keep even one? What would be the purpose of that? He did make that statement about keeping one or two! If I am VoTn g I would like him -W) clarify that. What arE the few they are going to
keep and for what purpose? Where do you propo-e making your bus terminal for this purpose? Where What size will these sheds be, and how many buses are expected to be housed in these sheds? If it is possible to furnish that information we would be grateful. As regards the honoraria of $750 there were many persons who in the take over had quite a lot of arduos duties to perform at odd hours, day and night, and I see that the sum of $750 is to reco,pense these persons. Would it be possible for you to say how many persons you intend to recompense because the question was once asked by some member , f this House-I forget who it was-whether it was the intention of the Government to recompense tiw Director of Highways a-.d Transport for the amount .jf work he had to put into the initial stages and a reply came that that -was part of his duties and no i ecompense to him was contemplated. There may be junior staff; and if it can be said how many there are, we, on this side of the Table would be very grateful for that information. The amount for legal e.x.penses is a revote and that is really outside f the questions I have asked, and I do not intend to go into that. But as regards accommodation for these buses I would like that information if he has got the questions clearly which I have stated: the size, where you intend to put it, for how many buses, and whether in one or other places, because it seems that until you can tell me how many buses you are voing to house I will be content with that. Again, I regret I cannot share the Minister's happy views about the type of public transport that exist today, ;nd I know that when the concessionaires ran these buses they had to conform to a standard that was No much higher than exist today that if one bus misired twice, the road inspectors were asked to take that bus off. Not onlyv do they misfire today but I think they catch afire, and the buses are still put back on the road next day to take people out.
Mr. BRANCKET{, Mr. Chairman. because of
my conviction that it is in the interest of. this cowirunity that the public passenger transport system should be nationalised, Government is entitled to be ntirely optimistic in respect to my support on this Measure in the Resoh'tio which is before us; but


Sir, I must say that I was greatly perturbed to hear the Hon. Minister who is in charge of this make certain remarks this afternoon, because one felt that because it is the policy of a Socialist Government in the interest of the, people to. rationalise every ,' sential commodity-One took it for granted-and particularly having heard the answers which were given to my questions earlier last year in connection with the nationalisation of -public passenger transport, Government even if temporarily or lukewarmndly, halfheartedly were embarking upon complete nationalisation of the public passenger transport svstem of this colony: but the remark, Sir, of the


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Minister which has caused me so much perturbatio i included this: that tlere is no question of Government being desirious d_, taking over the buses but simply a question of Government doing its best to keep down the cost of living; so Sir, let us consider that for a moment. "There was no question of Government desirious of taking over the buses." Wcll, Sir, either the Government is in favour of nationalisation or they are not in favour of nationalising essential utilities and when it was said by the Hon. Minister that there was no question of Government taking over the buses but that Government was doing his best to keep down the cost of living, it. is an indication that the Minister does not appreciate the best means of keeping it down is by nationalisation of essential commodities; but of course, there is taking over and taking on and there are two important elements in respect of taking over. One is like taking cver stock and barrel, and then you buy everything :at wholesale price at a much cheaper rate than would obtain when you buy only the number which you require for the concessions which have been taken over Again, of course, if Government is running a business, it does not have to make a profit. You want to run a business, it does not have to make a profit. You want to run a business efficiently and while they do not want to make a loss, undoubtedly you would not want, as would any of the big frms or even the small firms of this island insist on being able to show a profit. What you must insist on being able to show is that you have a satisfied .-.ontented public as a result of the units being ru,. But another aspect of it which is discouraging, Sir. is that from the very take over-and they had notice of it, it did not happen overnight; the matter (f some weeks when th former concessionaires were asked to give up the buses and later to hold on for a sufficiently number of weeks while the frame work of a proper organisation would be constructed so that in the taking over they would run with effieiency and proper administration. To take over a series of concessions or concessionaires in respect of which each formerly had its own manager and to take the whole lot over without a manager at all! As you know this system started in September and t was only in mid-February that we heard of a manager being advertised for and appointed. Well, no bus service could ever be expected to run itself with everybody as a manager and everybody as a !zoss. The public should not be given the impression that this matter was being so managed or mismanaged as to get the public afraid of nationalisation and be made to believe that nationalization is bound to be a failure.
v.45 p.m.
My contention is the reverse; there must be proper and adequate management in all spheres of businless.
The other remark which the H-on. l\,Iinister made and which has caused me great concern, was that the ( government always' intended to get rid of some of these buses. That does not go to show that this question of real1 Socialist nationalisation finds very muck� favour either with the Hon. Minister himself or


with the Government as a whole. That phrase is very direct and provocative. That is a point -which goes very much against the Hon. Minister, because on the one hand he has told us that Mr. Birch so, much welcomed back his buses, that he came for them, or that he sent for them in the dead of night; and that he used only 4 buses in the past, whereas the Government used 10. If Mr. Birch would use only 4 of his ouses and keep the others in the garage, and the Government used each and every one of the 10 buses, yoqm would have thought that they would not be jus-


tified in giving back Mr. Birch these buses unless there was an undertaking given to run all 10 of these uses. Of course, on the other hand, iVir. Bircl has only- one route on which to run these 10 buses and they must be usefully employed on this route. Now that the Government's fleet of buses 'have been depleted, I am forced to ask: what happens now? Does lie keep 4 or 5 or 6 of these buses in constant use? We must be suffering as the public, if we are assured that no longer are the routes of this Island serving tie travelling public of Barbados.
Under Part 1 of this Resolution, at paragraph 1 of the Transport Board up to 30th June, 1956, will amount to approximately $110,000. It 'has not been possible to calculate the amounts which will have to be provided for renewals and replacements."
I am wondering if 150 new tyres ,are all that are required to fit the Government's buses with tyres, because these tyres on the Government's buses are in a poor condition; that is to be regretted particularly now that the rainy season has set in. I have never seen such billiard-table tyres as I have seen on the Government's buses; I remember only a few weeks ago being called to Crumpton Street which was the scene of an accident, between a bus running on the My Lord's Hill route, and one of General Traders' lorries. I went to the scene of the accident in my professional capacity; I happened to look at the tyres on that particular bus, and I have not seen tyres as absolutely bereft of threads as I saw on the bus. The public who travel on that reute, and indeed the rest of the public should be p~rotected against buses being run with thread-bare tyres of that sort. Mr. Chairman, I am sure that you will be able to help the Government with the adequate number of tyres of which they so obviously stand in need. I cannot see that 150 new tyres could be adequate to have the 106 units remaining under Government control p 0erlv fitted.
Paragraph 2 which deals With advice on re-organisation of the Transport system, refers to the sum of $2,245. I am not quite clear as to the length of time that this gentleman will be here, but one gets the impression that it might be rather long because the note refers to our contribution for his salary and pension. This is what is stated in the note:"It will also be necessary to, provide for his salary and pension contribution or an honorarium whichever is preferred by the Government of Trinidad."
Any3how the amount is in the vicinity of E 500 and therefore, it does not call for any special coinmnent.
Paragraph 3 o] these notes says this:"There were certain members of the staff of t.he Department of Highways and Transport who were called on to work long and continuous ho~irs in connection with the taking over of the buses. It is proposed to pay honoraria to these persons and for this purpose there is needed a total of $750.
That amount seems to be very small; it is onlu $750. I wonder if when the H-on. Minister rises again


in this debate-I have no doubtD that e will rise many times again-he will supply us with the breakdown of this amount. When we come to paragraph 4 of these notes, there is a re-vote in connection with the services of a Queen's Counsel to appear on behalf of the Government in any proceedings which may arise out of the taking over of the buses. I do think that the Government should be congratulated. on having secured the services of such a distinguished Caribbean Queen's Counsel as Mr. Wooding for the reasonable fee of 1,000 gineas. I think that the Government is very fortunate in this r, spect; we all know the ability of Mr. Wooding as against our


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Acting Attorney General. You will agree with me, NIr. Chairman, that tiis is money which will be well spent. Since tne iioni. senior member for St. Joseph has retired from the Bar, it is surprising for what a reasonable fee one can get a really good Counsel.
Under Capital Expenditure, we have the proposal to purchase this Diesel bus which will have a life of 10 years. This is the most intriguing part of this Resolution; if tfhis 44 Seater Diesel bus becomes so popular with the public as the hon. member in charge of this Resolution anticipates, it is proposed that all the Government-operated buses should be 44 Seater Diesel buses until something better is evolved? Should we have selected routes-and in that case, koIwing the Hon. Minister as I do, these Diesel buses would be in St. Mlichael-or it is proposed to have 44 Seater buses operating throughout the Island for these 5,000 guineas apiece ? If that is accepted as the standard unit for the Transport system of this Island, then the private concessionaires will also be required to, invest in these comfortable and commodious units. Obviously, that should be the case and if they decide that they cannot afford to do that, then it w Tld be quite a simple matter for these concessionaires to, hand over their buses, to the Hon. Minister and let us achieve this full-blooded nationalisation of the Transport system. That is the only way in which the Transpot service will be made to pay; the Government will be able to control all the routes and: have efficient people employed i the running of the service.
7.55 p.m.
Let the Hon. Minister understand this: the best people to run any concern are the people who are the most fitted to do it. Those people may or may not be personal friends of the Minister or for that, matter anybody else. Friendship should not count here as efficiency; the only test and criterion if you want the system to be a success and you do not
want it to be a failure is efficiency.
Now, Sir, as regards the $75,500 for accommodation for omnibuses and workshops I have no quarrel about that, although I certainly, like the hon. member who preceded me on the floor of the House, lack information on the matter. We cer.
tainly should have been given detailed information on the $75,500 which is to be voted for this expencditure. The Hon. Minister should give us information as to how many bus,,s are supposed to be housed and where it is intended that this building and the workshop should be situated.
Now, Sir, I will refer to what I consider is an i mportant matter, one to which the H-on. Minister referred in one of his speeches on this matter. H; said that it is necessary to reprimand, disciplfite a d even dismiss employees. No one will disagree~ that at times it is necessaryy to reprimand, discipline and even dismiss employees. That is n othimi t o deplore but when t.he apparent necessity arises, Government should see to it that all steps are take in order to Safeguard the employee and to ensure that his case is properly put before the Board. They should never attempt to consider a case of this kind unless there is present throughout the entire hearing of it a representative of the Trade


Union to which the employee belongs. I am told
that always happens. In every case the employee's interest should be safeguarded.
As you know, when one is working with the Government, one does not expect to be dismissed or to have one's job sacrificed unless one is proven guilty of something very serious. Only last week, a letter was received by an employee of -,he Transport Board that his services were terminated on the ground of general inefficiency? I have see-n


that actually in writing and I must confess I can.not understand it. One would like to see them if legal proceedings were taken out against them, attempting to justify this vague, general charge of inefficiency. It should be something specific to pin down on the employee Even.-so, before sending in a written notice of general inefficiency, there should be a proper opportunity for the employee to answer in. writing such charges as there may be which constitute the alleged general inefficiency in writing after he has had the opportunity to study them and that record of his should be placed among the archives of the Transport Board.
Even though I see the necessity at times to :-eprima'd, discipline and dismiss an employee, it is not good when an employee arrives for his pay packet on pay day to be handed a letter saying: "You are hereby dismissed and you need not return to work again." That is not good enough. The first time that an employee knew that he was regarded as generally inefficient was when he received a letter from the Board with a statement to that effect.
Sir, I will warn the Hon. Minister of Communi. Cations that although this Transport Board is a ciparate entity he should, without appearing to take in hand any running of this Board to let it he knownl, perhaps by circular from Governmenb that all the proper steps must be taken in order to ensure that every employee, from the humblest to the greatest, is given the opportunity to state hiscase and to answer all the charges which they might put against him.
This may be a small point, but it is only nowv that either they do not have the right sign up assince these buses have been run by Government to the direction in which they are going, or that it "s upside down or inside out, or in respect of a different route so that which the bus is actually go-, mug. It is a most outstanding thing one notices s Gn the road. They may appear to be rather minor things but they should be looked into.
What I do suggest about the new Diesel bus which they propose to get is that one is not enough for a start. Mr. Chairman, you do know that alJiough every new car is expected to be good, (perhaps the Fords are ,better than the rest) yet it does happen occasionally even with the new run of cars that among them you will buy one in which there is something wrong and as a result you ha-e lo return it and get another new one in its place. That is my objection to this proposition of yours for buying only one 44-seater Diesel bus, to be used l~o demonstrate the many advantages of such a vehicle for the public transport system I think Sir, I have made sufficient comment on this Resolution which as I said I am supporting with the misgivings which I have uttered and with the constructive criticism to which I trust the Minister has listened and which 1 hope he will readily act upon. I do not propose to say anything more about this, .Sir, but I wonder if before I resume my ,seat, you would like me at this stage-I see, Sir, you appear somewhat tired and


perhaps ready to perform another very necessary function, and I would move that you do now report progress and ask leave to sit again.
M r. CRAWFORD: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirmative without division and Mr. SPEAKER re,:umed the Chair and reported accordingly.
lion. G. H. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to r ove that the House do now adjourn for three, quarters of an hour.
lRon. R. G. VTAPP: I beg to second that.


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The question was put and resolved 'int he affirflative without divistwn and Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House accordingly.
S.05 p.m.

On Resumption

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY CT'D.

Mr. SPEAKER: On the adjournment the
House was in Committee of Supply.
Mr. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I am going to ask leave of the House to proceed with the Address of which I gave notice earlier today.
Hon. Dr. H. G. I. CUMMINS: I object to that. We want to get through with the Government business.
The question that leave be granted the hon. member was put and resolved in the negative, the House dividing as follows:

Ayes: MR. TuDoR, MR. CRAWFORD, i\/IR. HAYNES, MR. GODDARD---A
Noes: MR. SMITH, HoN. DR. CuINuI.S; Ho-N. li. E. Cox; MR. HOLDER,; MR. BRYAN; HON. R. UG. MAPP, MR. VAUGHAN; MR . MILLER; and J. C. MoTTLY-9.

Transport C'td.

Mr. CRAWFORD: Sir, in a matter of this sort, to judge from the exhibition made by the Government, it is not very easy to decide how one should approach it. I will give examples of what I mean. The Minister right blankly said that they are not making any profit on the operation of these buses, but then said he never promised he would make ay profit. Well now, there are two basic factors underlying the nationalisation of any industry or service by Government. !The first is that the Government should feel that the service or industry is essentially a public service and therefore must be controlled by the state; the second is that since this service is essential, it has to be carried oni and has te be utilised and since no private concern would carry on without making a profit, if and when Goveinment assumes responsibility for -control and operation, the normal profits which it would make would improve the service that Government would provide for the country. Well now, if the Government starts off by saying we are not making a profit and did not promise to make any profit, then you are forced to ask what are the basic reasons for taking over the service, and when one hears that in respect of many of these nationalised services, the Government obtained taxes from the operation, it is even more difficult to understand the position. The bus companies and other bigger concerns pay approximately $4,000 a year as Trade tax to the St. Michael Vestry. They pay their Trade tax on a return of between $30,000 and $40,000 a year.
They also paid Income Tax, so that with one swoop the Government has been deprived of the


taxation paid by these bus companies; and one has to add this loss of taxation to the overall runniuR of the service by the Government. You have to wonder what is the approach of a responsible Government in a serious matter of this sort; one is forced to come to the conclusion that if they are going to approach a serious matter in this way, then little children and fools have no right with sharp-edged tools.
To quote another example of the ineptitude of the Government in dealing with this matter, the


Hon. MIinister said that the, Government was minded not to permit an increase of one cent in the basic bus fares because, apart from adding to the cost of living, there was this question of the school children who live in the rural areas having to come to the City to school, and the increased cost would fall heavily on the parents. How seriously should we consider this statement? If the Government were so concerned with minimising the Transportation cost of these children in getting to the schools in the City, certainly they would consider constructing more secondary schools in the rural areas. That would be the necessary answer to that question. In St. Philip, there is a new glorified school called the Princess Margaret School; the Government has persisted in running it as an elementary school so that the children have to go to the Secondary schools in the City. You have been amazed, Mr. Chairman, at the enormous number of applicants who try to get into Secondary schools every year; you have 800 applicants at Harrison College, you have a, similar number at St. Michael's Girls' School and over 900 at the Modern High School. The answer to this problem is not to sink money in a service which you cannot operate, but to provide more Secondary schools for the children.
A third example which had me so befogged that I did not know how to take part in this debate, ion respect of the bus service in Jamaica. The lion iinister went on to tell the Committee that the Government is subsidising this bus service. Are we to understand that this Government wants to throw away money in subsidising the buses? "he Hon. Minister told the Committee that people who are operating these buses in Jamaica are allowed to bring iii their rolling stock and so on free of d.ty Apart from that, the Government of Jamaica has uad to give a rebate on the gasolene tax in order to help 'hem equate running costs with revenue. The lIon. Minister illight have told the Committee that the L-as fares in Jamaica are very much higher than they ar, in Barbados. [Hon. TM. E. COX:So is the gasolcii.e] In Jamaica, you pay something like 6c. for two miles which means that- a comparable distance in this island, from Bridgetown to Top Rock would cost a little over 12c., and to go to Oistins would cost something like 20c. in Jamaica. Here it costs you only 10c; but the Hon. minister is much enthused over the matter of having buses like those in Jamaica and then heavily subsidising them. I am reminded of the saying that a fool and his money is soon parted, ana the Government has demonstrated itself as a fool. an is throwing away the money as fast as it can.
The argument advanced today is that we have ivoney in the Treasury, and' you have to provide a Tframnsport service for the public; therefore the Go ve rnment can afford to dip heavily into its coffers and tbrow away the oney. That is not my conception of how a business should be run, whether it be a State controlled or a, privately-run business. I refuse to make any reference to the Hton. MVinister's statement: tiat the bus service is being- operated better than it w as operated before. If out of the 116 buses which


i}ey took over, only about 50 are licenced on the road, 34 are in the metropolitan area and 16 outside, then yon have 66 which are not in operation at all. When the buses were in operation, the service was not enoughh to satisfy the needs of the travelling public, because the Government themselves called upon the (:oncessionaires to increase the number of buses. Now the Hon. Minister has the effrontery to get up. in here and say that they have a ,better Transportation service than before.


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I nave never seen more bus waggons caxryinog people about the road; people are buying these sma waggons and using tleai in transporting the people. You cannot have the service improved with less buses; I have marvelled from time to time to see the small number of buses which are on the various routes, and I have been amazed at hearing complaints all over the Island, as to how long people have to wait f or buses to transport them. Yet we are told that the ,.ervice has been improved! Improved where? If, Iii my opinion, the Government were minded to iationahse the Transport service of the Colony, and i"' we had the money to do it effectively and efficiently, one could understand that. If the Government were actually and really concerned with nationalization as a political principle, we would today have been owning a large number of shares in the Electric Company; and to be responsible for the acquisition of capital by the -company, and the Government itself to control the relevant number of shares in the Comipaxly; but we did nothing of the kind. We have alallowed the Government's financial position to be used as an endorsement by the Electric Company to the share capital it needed and today we do not own cne single share in the Company, and that is a concern out of which we could have made money. We would have ensured that this Company would be run efficiently under proper management and the shareholders would be getting some return on their investmnent, and therefore any investment which the Gov,em nment had in the Company would show some profit. Motivated by reasons which I cannot characterise in i.arliamentary language, the Government has put i-tself in a position in which it has to acquire the bus
-,crvice; it talks glibly about nationalising Transport on the one hand, and on the other we are told here tonight that Government does not intend to keep the
-oncessions which it has acquired; it may keep one or two of them.
(9 20 p.m.
He said that eight applications were made for these concessions but that nothing can be finalised until such time as can be settled the purchase price of the units. In other words, the Government in tends as long as conveniently possible to permit private enterprise to operate the majority of the con cessions which Government has under its control. If fnat be the case, why not make a clean breast of the matter?Why do they not let the taxpayers, know o what they are doing now, and what they intend to.2 Are you going to do. ii; this year or next year after the General Elections? They know that they cannot ;-un them; they know that they cannot operate them,. .they do not intend to operate them themselves; theref'ore, why merely set up a gesture in order to. make the public feel that there are at present some improvemuents just to hold out until after the .General Elections, when they know that the position is not what they put up ? The H=on. Minister says that the
_financial loss is $110,00,0t The hon. junior member for Christ Church has .claimed that the Auditor for"


t he St. Michael's Vestry who investigated the finances of the BoardHon. M. E. CO'X: When did he investigate them?
Mr. CRAWFORD: The hon. junior member for Christ Church sated that thb financial loss of
-the Board up to the end of March was, $175,000.
Mr. GODDARD: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a point of explanation. It was not the Auditor of the V estry, it was the Auditor of the Transport Board


who made that statement. [A VOICE: Who is the AX.uditor ?]
Mr. CRAWFORD: He simply said an Auditor end I assumed he meant the Auditor of the St. Michael's Vestry because I knew that the St. Mich. ael's Vestry had instituted an enquiry in order to know whether the Board could pay taxes. The fact remains that a highly qualified Auditor assessed that Board up to the. end of March this year and found out that the losses were $175,000. Of course what t.he Minister told the House wass that it estimatea that the operating losses would amount to approximately $110,000 - $95,000 operational loss and $15,000 otherwise.
The Addendum says that it is estimated tcat

the operational deficiency of the Transport Board up
-to 30 June, 1956 will amount to: approximately $, W .00. It further says that it has not been possible 'r, calculate the amounts which will have to be proirided for renewals and replacements. In other words, the M inistry and the Transport Board are either incapable or undesirous of putting the true position before the public. They are telling you that it is not possible to calculate, the amounts which will have to be provided for renewals and replacements. k hy not ?
Now, Sir let us look at the picture I efore the House for a moment. The Hon. Minister claims that the losses are $110,000. Mr. Mc Dermott, the Aucoi tor, said that up to the end of March it was $175,000.
Hon. M . E. COX: Mr. Chairman, it is more or :ess unfair to that Auditor when the hon. member makes that statement. He said just now that the Auditor of the St. Michael's Vestry made $175,000 and then the hon. junior member for Christ Churea corrected him. The hon. senior member for St.
Philip then got up and said that he was under the impression that the hon. junior member for Christ Church meant the Auditor for the St. Micnael's \ estry. Now, he accuses Mr. McDermott for saying
that. I am sayng that no Auditor ever told him that. None could have said that.
Mr. CRAWFORD: I said that the Auditor
said losses were $175,000 and the hon junior mem ;,er for Christ Church and the hon. senior member for the City both said that the Auditor was Mr. MJc.Dermott. I prefer to err with them because they know what they are talking about.
Hor. M[ .E. COX. The Auditor of the Transport Roard is Fitz Patrick Graham. [Laughter]
A VOICE: Mr. M.e.Dermott is of the firm of Messrs Fitz Patrick (Craham and Co., Accountants.
M r. CPRAWFOR.D: Mr. Chairman, we have had so many demonstration s of colossal ignorance by the H-on. Minister of Communications that it is unnecessary (I would say cruel) to accuse him of further ignorance today. Everybody ini Barbados
except him knows that Fitz Patrick Graham is the. trade name and that the firm of Accountants belo ig's to Mr. Mc.Dermott. This Auditor said that the operationally losses was $175,000, to the end of March, therefore to the end of June you can be sure that


the financial losses would total over $200,000.
Now. the Hon. M-iister himself said that those people who were run-ming the buses are given the. right to write off annually 20% for depreciation. Let us assume that the 116 buses which the Government acquired represent a capital cost of $300,000. 0" course, that is a conservative estimate. If you assume 1-at the capital cost of those buses which Government acquired is $300,000, well then 20% deprecia. lion would be $60,000 which you would have to add to your operational deficit. On top of that. you have to add the interest for the bus owners which is at


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the rate of 5%. As you -Nill remember, G ,vernment i-romised to pay them 5% on the capital value of the buses from the time they acquired them until Government settled the account. Therefore, 5% oi $300,000 will be roughly another $15,000.
Now, Sir, sooner or later those buses will hay, to be paid for, and in Cany industrial coicern you business represents a certain amount of capital investment: and any busness undertaking, apart from its interest and depre.iation every year, must make some addition to its capital undertaking; so on the $300,000 which I have assumed represents the capital investment on the buses which Government has
acquired, we must presume that the Auditors will make some payment towards the capital cost. I w ill put that figure to the conservative estimate of about $25.000. Mr. Chairman, all that is without auv reference at all to renewals and replacements. Gov. ernment has come in here and told the public that 95,000 represents the financial operational loss for a year without any reference to the interest due to
-)he concessionaires, whhout any reference to depre&cation and without any reference to renewals and replacements. That is either completely hiding the true picture of the situation from the public or that they are presenting a most false picture to the public, or that members of the Government are so stupid that they do not know what they are doing or that they are deliberately attempting to fool th.public.
I can conceive that nationalisation of public transport is a desirable principle to be followed by any socialist Government [VoICES: No! No: [ANOTHER, SET OF VOICES: Hear! Hear.]
9.30 p.m.
I believe that transport is an essential public service. It has to be provided for the public ar, d therefore it should be run by the state; and I be'ieve that the state should make something out of t beyond a small operational cost and the profit used in expanding the service and make it more efficient for the benefit of the country. But MIr. Chairman, this is an undeveloped, seni-illiterate colony in which' the Government cannot provide a quarter of the essential services of public needs. We have about twenty thousand children of school age, and because of no compulsory education in Barbados and because Che parents are neglectful and unmindful of their responsibility, and this money we are going to squander on the transport service could provide copulsory education. It is all right to talk about Great Britain's nationalisation of transport. It. is the niost industrialised country in thme world; they have got free secondary education., hot midday meals for children, national insurance schemes; twenty to) thirty thousand leaving Universities, most of them come out not having centributed one cent towards the University education; even higher education is partially free, so they can get down to nationalising coal, steel and transport although you will remember t]hat the Labourites nat~onalised steel, then the Tories 3ame into power and there has been no talk by the Tories of denationalising it - but I would prefer to see this money put into an industrial corporation to start new industries in Barbados. As a matter of


fact, the Government is employing less people than the concessionaires used to employ by throwing away this amount of money annually and I put it at $30,000 which is entirely irrespective of replacements and I say you are going to spend this large amount of money annually, and you are not going to give employment to another person in the island and you cannott provide the services which the country re.quire. Do you think, Sir, the average taxpayer feels he will save one cent bus fare? Do you think he is


so ignorant not to know that if he does not pay it here, he has to pay for it somewhere else? It may �.yell be true that the Government refuses to provide free education or to provide more secondary schools becausee they want people kept ignorant but there are not as ignorant as they think. Do you think it is right, Mr. Chairn. an, that this Govermuent approaching Dominion Status, complete responsibility for all our affairs, should have this mass gnorance in Barbados still instead of providing more eondary school accommodation? Do not think you eain run a country merely by teaching people a little .,rithmetic and elementary English. Every time you want something done more than ordinarily above the usual pursuit of Government you have to bring -m expert from. outside; you are bringing a Q.C. for the Transport, a valuer of valuing authority. The people here are ignorant, and you are not providing any facilities for more advanced education. All they are losing is squandering every cent they can collect and doling it shamelessly a.ni ignorantly. I would be willing tonight under the circumstances to spend money
to make the running (f the service more efficient, and if the Government wants to demonstrate it is capable of conducting public affairs in the highest possible manner it is inescapable to begin with the transport service and out it on a firm foundation. It is no credit to Government to accuse people of sabotaging; it is not true. The people working there lave been screened aid you can-not get a job. No ,-nautborised person can get in there easily. To get in there, you have to get in ith people you should not be mixing with and when they see the fruits of rlaeir maladministration [ A VOICE: What about th(e letters you wrote recommending people for jobs there ?]-it is my duty to provide employment in the Public service wherever I can for my constituents; and if they come to me and ask to recommend them and I send them, that is my business* If tb Minister were concerned with the job as Minister he would not be maliciously pushing his nose in the affairs of the Board and telling them whom to employ and whom not to employ. The point is, Sir, that the Minister is supposed, if he knows what he is about, to formulate a policy and to see that the policy is carried out; but merely to be concerned with intrigue and trickery and what not is not what is expected. of him. I know, Sir, I am fully aware that the Go-ernment knows that they cannot run the Transport service ; they cannot even run one concession. If theX say thoy want 50 mor--units and they are recoinn,.q'ding these $25,000 diesel jobs so strongly, 50 ,,nits at $25,000 is over $1 million. Where are yen going to get the money from? Then he tells us some. thing about reconditioning buses which are in the x-ard. Now, do you really believe M~r. Chairman, with your experience of reconditioned machinery of any kind that the Government has any right buying reconditioned buses to put in. the transport service!
9 40 p.m.
That is like putting new wine in old bottles 'rom the design of these buses, you can see that they' 4.: e antiquated; they are nothing which should be put , nt the roads in Barbados to-day. The honourabl.o


learned and gallant senior member for St. George some time ago told the House that the tendency in big Cities in Europe to-day is to utilise small buses, not the big omnibuses which they want to foist on the public. In Europe, the tendency is to use small units which can be easily manoeuvred and which can take passengers with the minimum of ease and oper ational expense; but they want to commit us in Barbados in 1956 into enjoying the use of buses which are out of date in other parts of the world, and con-


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demned: and which are re-conditioned for the backward areas by the English manulacLarers. We do not want any re-conditioned units, because they are antiquated and must be expensive to run; and, in addition to that, they are too big. We cannot afford these $25,000 buses; the experience in Trinidad and jamaica is that thE, Government has heavily to finance their operation. Is the Hon. Minister committing us to a similar policy in Barbados in the future?
There were one or two other points which the lion. Minister made and to .which some reference should be made; but what I am concerned with is
-whether we really want to be honest with the people from whom we are buying these buses. I think that we should put our cards on the table now and say: "'We cannot operate these buses as we thought we could do; we have found that the position is, not what we thought it was, and we are willing to arrive at some amicable settlement in this matter." Instead of doing that, in spite of their own practical experience in the matter, they are carrying on this regrettable state of affairs; they are holding the eight applications they had, anrid then, a little later on, some of these applicants -will be given the opportunity of aecquiring these concessions on God knows what terms As a matter of fact, two different applicants have been recently told that they can have concessions provided lhey will pay cash for them, and provided that they will pay the value agreed on by the assessors. They themselves should advance something by now, as to whether or not it is possible to maintain the existing services and to improve and extend them on the current operational revenue.
What the HorL. Minister should have done is this. he should have come to the House with facts and figures to show what are the costs of operation on any given routes in respect of the concessions which they ,are now running. They should take any of the con cessions which they operate and give us the maximum figures for the period under review; they should give us the figures for three months in respect of any route. They should tell us that the cost was so mu-ch and it is likely that we will lose so much on the particular route. They should let the House and the Country know what are the prospects, for the futur operation of the Transport service, ibut do not ask us to agree to this eXpenditure of $110,,000 and tell us that in the near future we will be asked to vote money in order to purchase either these $25,000 units or second-hand rebuilt buses. I cannot agree with that; there are too many things to be done for us to agree to squander this money to-day. They are experience m.g difficulty in gettin : the money for financing the Deep Water Harbonr, mad yet they expect us willingly- to support what; they propose here. I am not vot ,;rg for this E e'olntion- I cannot see any justification for sporting it.
9.5G p.m.
It is not what they are presenting here. Are we going to get a tru e statement of the losses after the Elections? It is not f2 ir to the country that the peo plc's taxes should be ruandered in this matter when there are so many things to be done. It cannot


possibly be fair. Let us assume that the employees of the Transport Board are now being paid better wages. By all means the best possible wages should be paid to them, but they are paid better wages, at the expense of the Treasury. They should not be paid better wages out of the Treasury; they should be paying better wages out of the increase in bus fares.
Why subsidise public transport? Let us subsidise flour instead. We took off the subsidy from flour, .tnd immediately after that the price went up, by one


dent per pound. I believe the people will prefer to get cheaper flour than to think that the public is so heavily subsidising the part of the transportation system which Government is running. Government is only running a few routes. They are several concessionaires who are still running their own service and they are not getting any subsidy. We are spending this money on only eight routes: which means, Mr. O/hairman, that the taxes of the people in St. Joseph, the constituency which you represent are being used to enable people from other districts to travel. That is discrimination against certain sections of the travfdllng public. That is what it means and the irony of it is that the Government is incapable of assessing (:dequately and correctly what the true position is.
I would not be mindful of the best interest of the colony if I allow this tragedy to continue. Mr. Chairman, I am not supporting this Resolution and I am sure and have every confidence that when the facts of the case are fully put to the public that the people would support the few of us who cry out about this wanton expenditure by the Government.
Mr. ALLDER: lIr. Chairman, it is not enough for the Hon. Minister of Communications to be right; he must be clearly and immaculately right. I will quote the "Beacon" of the 29th June, 1955: The only member of this community who says that the Transport system of this colony as controlled by the Government is better run now than ever is the Hon. Minister of Communications. If there were an absence ,i arrogance on the part of the Mlinister. and there was a consciousness to the expenses by the minions in the Party who would guarantee the passing of a Resolution of this sort, the Hon. Minister of Communications and the Government would certainly give to the broad public of Barbados the feeling that they are willing to respect the people's opinions and t'at they would do the thing which the public clam ours to be done.
What I am trying to do, Mr. Chairman, to-nigli is not to make an appeal to the Government in this
-:espect because the Government is so oblivious to coi istructive suggestions and the public demands that it would be a waste of time to make any appeal to them What we on this side of the Table should do is to make an appeal to public opinion and vP should do more than that because public opinion in this colony unfortunately has shown such a weakening of char Acter and determination when it comes to standing up for the rights. We should carry the matter further by taking the latter in our hands and putting it before the S'ecretary of State for the Colonies.
The lion. Minister of Communications, irresponsible and inefficient as he is, ignorant of his responsible position, may sneer at inc but I regret very much that we have to tolerate such :ill behaviour on his ,part. I am naot speaking for myself. Mr. Chairman I am peaking for Barbados with its thousands who have be en told (not that they wanted it) that t-hey could not pay a cent more for bus fare; and bear in mind, in the Report of the Committee which enquired into hbe matter of bus fares, the recommendation on some routes was as low as half cent. I am not saying


whether the travelling public was able or unable to pay the increase in bus fare; What I am saying is that the Government which should have taken its courage in its hands; this Government which boasts of having the respect and admiration of the people in this colony should be honest enough not to fool them. But this Government has fooled them in this respect. This Government has told them that they cannot pay a half cent per trip for bus fare directly out of their pockets but is calling upon them to pay millions an-


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nually to replace and operate the buses. It is calling I upon the people to replace those sums which conductors and others will unavoidably extract illegally. In other words, this Government is saying that the people will have to pay out of their pockets by way of taxation. that which garage operators will overcharge them.
That is dishonest leadership; that is dishonest politics. It is. better, Mr. Chairman, if your child calls for honey, and you think it is better to give it castor oil, to give it the castor oil. The child will 1hank you in the long run. Gone are the days when a Government such as this should resort to cheap politics.
1 regret, Mr. Chairman, that such a hard blow has been dealt 'nationalisation; socialistic as I am and Cs they claim to be. I have read a lot about national. isation of certain industries. I believe in it. There 'were days when I walked the streets without a penny to buy biscuits, and so I was forced to believe that if the State owned the wealth of the country I would be able to buy biscuits. The Socialist Government which we were proud to support when it first camie into power, I regret, has forced me to think differently rf it.
Now, Sir, the Government has taken over the only industry which was-'built up by people who were chauffeurs themselves, by people who started from owning a lorry and putting a tarpaulin on the top of it to carry people and who carried on in such a way until they were able to buy a bus. Indeed, some have bedn able to buy a dozen and some two dozen buses. 10.00 p.m.
The transport system in this colony was owned by three-quarters og the people who sprmg from the gutter-hole and I think that if it were not owned by frich persons there would have been no suggestion of taking them over. I would, swear, Mr. Chairman, that if Musson and Company, Wilkinson and Haynes, K. R,. Hunte and others [A VOICE:What about Eckstein?]-do not mind Eckstein that was only one ownership-but the bulk were owned by men like Trotman whose mother worked farm ground; and Stewart who drove a bus as a driver in the employ of somebody; and Jones; men of that sort, and Miss Rock'in St. Andrew, a shop attendant. I want to draw the public's attention to the false idea of social ism which is practised by the Government opposite me. Anything that can be run easily but which is owned by English people, by the big financiers of this colony arnd which would give greater and more ready returns, Government would never think of taking them over. The Telephone Company raised th'ir i ates every other week: [Cheers] the Electric Coin. pany makes you pay more when they like and they cut you off when you do not reach their demands. Not a word is said: and I am sure, Sir, that returns from these companies would have been greater thaii they would ever hope to get from4 buses. Results have shown us the truth, but you know what happened? The Directors of the Electric and Telephone


Companies and other companies have their representatives placed in the Executive Committee and the Executive Council. The present so-called socialist ,"roup, some of whose members sit on the Executive Committee, come down here not with their policy but a policy diluted by the representatives of big businesses whom they allow to sit on the Executive Committee, notwithstanding the boast of having the most. wonderful constitution in the British Empire; and' here we are saddled now. I am wondering if the Previous speakers fully realise the immensity of this
*istuation. The antics of our Minister of Communica-


dons would give one the impression that he is too small to rise to the occasion. He does not realise what an important Resolution we are handling to.ght. His laughter, his sneers and his stupidity deunitely betray his ability, if ever there was ability in the Hon. Minister. [Cheers] What I ami stating. Ivr. Chairman, is this: here it is, within a couple oi months this small colony of ours shall be saddled with the overburdening expenditure of the Federal setup. Nobody knows the tune of the amount which we will have to bear. Here it is, the community ha,,r been clamouring for a 'T.B. Sanitorium for some time The Government has gone so far as to make it possiblfor me to attend a function at which the consideration of such a T.B. Sanatorium would be set up. Nothing has happened in this respect yet, Mr. Chairman. At the Hospital, every now and again they are changing plans--and will continue to change the plans-until riot one cent remains in the Treasury. Here it is, you have three or four distinguished foreigners bein6. taken around this colony and shown its amenities, its superior amenities over those which obtain in the other colonies, for the purpose of influencing them to give Barbados the only salvage which it hopes to obtain from the Federal structure; and what do you find during the presence of these worthy gentlemen There were examinations for entry in our secondary schools and you found eight hundred persons apply .1 ng for less than one hundred places. That shows the stark need of secondary school accommnodation: Should we give it to them or should we not? W,should: because most of us here could only see for tunate people going into the portals of such institu, tions, and to-day we are in power to give it to those who would be more fortunate than we were, but instead of doing that, what are we doing? They art I:rejudiced through pettiness, through cheap politics., and they are pushing such possibilities further anO'1 further from-the realms of achievement [Cheers] I want the Hon. Premier on whom we look over all the years when I first entered politics for constructive leadership, to ignore the pettiness of, his henchmen and other Ministers. I want him to reajlise you d( not have to practise cheap politics because this*is election year. His Government should be destroyed for having resorted to it. The only reasonwhy Gov ernment has talked about nationalising the buses is
-because this is election year. The only reason why he said bus fares must not go np,, "they shall not go up over my dead body," is because this is election year, because the hon. member, the leader of the Gov. emrnent has carried up every possible charge in Gov ernent within the past two or three, years-increased court fees, increased cost of stamps, increased duties Onl rum, increased duties on vehicles, on cigarettes;: They wanted to carry up fares on hawkers but we on this side were too voluble 'in the matter.
Mr. CHAIRMIAN: The honourable senior member for the City must not interrupt.

Mlr. ALLDER- The Government, you must re-


inenber, increased water rates; everything that the Govermnent supplies has been carried up within the last two or three years; these years were not election years and now it comes to election year they are playJ ing cheap politics. I am alone, lonely and weak and I would like the Premier not to resort to that cheapness in politics as a Leader. I would tell my people, 'Get it straight: if it means you must pay half cent or one (.,ent, pay it; because if I take it over, it will cost you more indirectly." That is what-they should have told tnem. But here it is: the argument being put by the


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210 OFFICIAL GAZETTE JANUARY 3, 1957


Premier is of a bus owner owning six or eight bunga lows! You cannot legislate on such cheap polilival lines. You do not know if somebody gave them to him; because you mc.y see him with a house or Lwo, are you going to legIslate because of your prejudice against him?
10.l10 p.m.
This is what the people would appreciate; a mar. is great and strong when lie realises that he has made a mistake and is big enough to say: "I have at tempted to do good, and I have made a mistake; io being infallible, I ani willing to remedy it'. '1ie only way in which they can remedy this s ,iuai w is to say boldly that they have not got any direct control over the dozens whom they have employed to run the service. You caoinot put an Inspector to watch another Inspector, because the cost of doing that will be too great. They should say: "We are not going to continue to run the Transport service in this (olony, " and you would be surprised to know how many people, even your enemies, would appreciate your stand. Not even your supporters would feel that a Resolution of this sort, calling for further ex penditure in this respect, should be dealt with tonight; not even your supporters would feel so, furthermore your opponents.
As a member of this House, I cannot avoid th public meeting me and saying some people are accusing the Hon. Minister for the breakdown in the Transport service. I have said that you cannot blame him, the Opposition is not strong wi6th members and I can. only console myself with the hope That the Govern!Iient would not worry to keep these, buses. You :annot tell the intelligent public such as we have in Blarbados, that the Transport system is being run 1 etter than it has ever been run: You cannot cause me to feel so, if a domestic has to wait at a stop jiLo for an hour on mornings before she can get to work It is ignorance and stupidity in any minister who thinks that he will cause a man who is suffering from a pain in his wrist to feel that he does not have: that pain.
The Government took over the service with such .arrogance and pettiness that they allowed the slogan. "This is we buses," to be used by all and sunciuu., and therefore the Transport workers felt that the buses were theirs, and the money went straight into f.heir pockets and not to the Clerks; the only persons who did not know that were the Hon. Minister of 'ucm
-iaunieations and the Hon. Premier. If the lon. Premier does not want the Transport service to be

I believe that these steps were taken because of this Resolution which is before us tonight. Last week an3 the week before, they wrote off and jailed people; and before then, there were flagrant cases taking place. What happened was that every misdemeanour was kept under cover for fear of the public know ing -what has happened; but there are some of us to whom things are brought as readily as or more readily than they are carried to the Government or a M-inister.
What. is more, if Ministerial Status will bring us to a state of affairs such as this, then I regret having


given Ministerial status my blessing. Some or t i txovernment's supporters were prejudiced against, their having this ;atus, and I stood up and expressocl the hope that hon. members will live up to tlei& expectations. If there was a single man who has cone baroactos any arm, (tie harm is greater Le cause of the position in which the lion. ktinister .Ja, been placed) that man is the Hon. Minister of "om munications. The greatest blow which can be struck at a Country is in its economies, because when itb economics are squandered on the most unworthy. ioth rich and poor will suffer. That is why I feel that because of his pettiness the Hon. Minister is ignorant of proper administration of business. What has the Hon. Minister been doing? All you have to do is to sit in the G.llery of this Chamber and when the Hon. Minister is passing through the Lobby, go and pat him on the back, and say- "Those fellows were wrong, you were right," and he is regarded as a god. The Hon. Minister has recommended appointments, not because of ability, but because ot f iendship and servitude. If the Hon. Minister had realised the responsible position which he holdslion. M. E. COX: I do not mind the abuse, Mr Chairman, but I would ask the hon. member to call the names of people whom I have recommended for positions.
Mr. AJLDER: I cannot do that. The Hon. Minister disregards rectitude and morality; he will
--all your name even if you beg him not to do so. Every member of the public knows whom he has recommended for the appointment to the Department of Highways and Transport and the Housing Board 10.20 p.m.
I am not criticising the membership ot the Board, but it is us who have ,h% publicc purse to protect. We do not expect the Minis ter to be able to administrate all these Beards him self but according to the constitutional set up of this colony, as is always drawn to our notice by the I-on. Premier, we know the Minister has to recom,end membership to that Board. Everybody knowt.,at there was dissatisfaction the day after th appointments were made to those two Boards; and If the Hon. Minister was not up in the skies and was walking like a human being on the earth, t:e would be able to hear the likes and dislikes of th( travelling public who re in the majority the tax. ayers of this colony. Certainly, if I were the Minis. ter, I would not like to do something which 99% o3 the taxpayers dislike because I would always be ,-eminded that they hax e to fill the Treasury owing to this state of squandermania.
What has happened, Mr. Chairman, is that the iIon. Premier has introduced to this Hon. Chamber within recent years something which prevents merel:ers of this Chamber from being appointed to these administrativee posts. All the twenty years that the Hon. Premier was in this Chamber, and the other people dominated the political scene of this colony, They always saw to it that the best kind of persons oc put on administrative and statutory Boards should be members of the House of Assembly. The lion. Minister of Communications in his ignorance


Will sneer at what I art saying now, but it is a fact that when you have politicians on these Boards they a1,ays bring to those Boards the experience which helped them to become a member of this Hon. Chamber; and along with that, most of them have had experience in bus:'iess and administrative mat1ers. Therefore you start off with a certain amount ,ef administrative experience; butwhen you go and vet nondescript people whom you see v:alking the streets of Bridgetown, year-after year because xf their lack of business acumen, and as a result no-


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ody gives them employment, and you make such People even Chairman of an important Board like that, you can expect anything to happen.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: That is not relevant to
what we are discussing.
Mr. ALLDER: 'r. Chairman, it is relevant. f am discussing the membership of the Transport Board. I am only sorry that after hon. members likec myself have finished fighting relentlessly in the public interest this Resolution will still pass. It is
*o be regretted that after we have fought-the few, but yet strong voices in the fight for liberty, freedom 'and morality-we will still have to sit and see tAose hon. members opposite to us voting for the draining of the public p urse. I view the public purs-: as a large bag held over an abyss by the five Ministers and the Hon. Minister of Communications in this particular instance has a big sword cutting the itottom of it. [Laughter].
Mr. CHAIRMAN: Again I must speak to th,.1 hon. senior member for the City. I hope ypu will behave yourself sometimes. This is the second time; that I am going to make an appeal to visitors in the, gallery of this House to behave themselves and net ,o laugh and shout. If they carry on in that way I am going to ask the Police Officer to put them out [A VOICE: Oh no, you cannot do that.]
Mr. ALLDER: M3r. Chairman, I was saying
that when I sat here ard listened to what the Hon. Minister of Communications had to say it was not even considered a good trade. It is not capable ot Iny such term. I sat and said to myself: what a woeful mess has politics in Barbados entered. A thing of this sort does not call for personal abuse of
those whom the Hon. Minister feels would
abuse the Resolution. All that he needs to do is to convince the public that what he is do,ng is right aid he has not done that. He has with innuendoes abused the unabused with the feeling that whatever happens the Resolution will still pass. As one of the stooges of the Government has said., 'man, we were over thlere and we know things are bad but whenever the Opposition finishes braying, we klinow the Resolution x ill pass." A ridiculous state (-f affairs like this can only happen in Barbados. I1 a failure of the Minietry of the Transport Service liad taken place, even Civ some members of the other
-.de term it, in corrupt Trinidad, fhe Minister will have to resign. Realising that he has failed miserably, he would resign I am not suggest ing that b cause I want to fill th iitr' ols
I-on M. E. COX: You are not cap~hle. 10.30 p.m.
Mr. ALLDER: It does not take anything much :io suggest that another hon.member in this Chamber "s not capable.
It is because the Hon. Minister is not capable tnat he can tell me now that I am not capable, because i. he had run the btus service as efficiently as I feel lie should have been able to do, we could not have been here passing this Resolution: because he does know that when he handles anything correctly I al-


ways give my support as a member of this House, not as an individual, to the thing which he is doing. W hat I want to suggest now, Mr. Chairman, is this: it is not the $200,000 we are voting which would put back our transport service in order; this is only the initial expense which we are being asked to agree to tonight. What I am fearful of is this: in the Reso. lution there is provision for $25,000 for the acquireinent of a bus.
Mr. Chairman, you do know, because most of these buses stop at your service station, that they cannot last in proper service for another year without replacements. Every member of the public .


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TMr. CHAIRMAN:. I do not think it is fair tu the Chair to be saying that buses stop at my station, It is not true and you should not be lying like that.
Mr. ALLDER: Mir. Chairman. I really cannot object to your remarks in view of- the fact that the Chair is supreme in Committee, but you do know I have been present when buses parked at your place when you and I were talking. I am not going
-o be so small as to object to your telling me I ain lying, because I know members of the public have seen buses taking gasolene from your station. I dc not mean to suggest anything wrong, but it is true nevertheless. You know that too. I do not mean t., suggest any motives or bring anything against you.
T Mr. CHAIRMAN: But you must not say things that are not true.
ir. ALIDER: I was not implying any ill motives but it depends on your attitude of mind. What was trying to suggest is that you know the condition of these buses, and most of the public do know it too because daily we see one pulling the other along the road. Most of us do see that and were never accus tomed to seeing them in such large numbers being towed in service on the road; and that is why I am saying that the condition of these buses compels the Government to replace every possible one withiin a year. Now, let us start off fresh. We want this $200,. 000 odd. Let us leave that out entirely. Let us get down to replacements within a year. If you have 116 )uses - and this is one time the Government must understand if they intend keeping these buses it is no use keeping second hand rebored jobs from, Englaifd. Trinidad, Jamaica, or Canada, because the only reason I purchase a second, hand car is because 1I cannot afford $3,000 odd and therefore having no Govern ment funds at my disposal- [Laughter] I am not
suggesting, i\Ir. Chairman, that anybody who haGovernmnent funds at his disposal can go and buy a car; what I mean is, Government can.go and buy a $75,020 bus to attach to the Highways and Transport Department without thinking. I do not want the implication to go over in a, wrong manner, but what I am saying is this: the only reason why I buy a sec ,rod hand car is because I cannot afford, a new on right now'; and transport is a continuous grind of engines; and in view of the fact that you cannot run them this year and next year, you should not consider the acquirement of second hand buses which have been discarded by the Transport Authority in, these countries. Therefore, having that in viewand you have to know this business to apprecat.! what I am saying - if you have to run, the transport service continually in the future, you have to buy new buses: and each new bus a proposed, in the lResolution would cost the taxpayers $25,000. I therefore envisage $2,500,000 being spent to purchase
_ :ew buses to replace the existing ones. Now the (jtestion is having a group of :enucessionaires, old and new, who are willing- to take over the troubles of transport in Barbados; should we ignore such an op-portunity and commit the economy of the colony to that unnecessary expenditure? That is clear, especi-


ully and in view of the numbers of other social commitments which the Government has already. These are things which the Hon. Minister must sit bacl and think out. I am saying this: if you were to
take a ple 5iscite in this colony of ours, youwill find the majority would be against the continuation of their possession of the bus service. It is all right for a few friends to meet the Minister and say "we are running the buses" because being the Minister's friends you can get a job; and can you imagine, Mr. Chairman, you have dozens of people employed to run the transport service? In some cases I have attempted









212 OFFICIAL GAZETTE JANUARY 3, 1957


to sympathize with-the Government because the Gov-ernment cannot be here, there and everywhere; but what I get vexed with the Government for is that they are not courageous and honest enough when they make. a mistake to remedy it in a bold manner. D)o you expect the transport service to work when .you get employees like the efficient chief motor meLhanic whom every possible person in this colony knows is a responsible person-the man Applewhaite
-and you tell me a lot of youngsters can go there and because the man is I disciplinarian-and this is the type of man the Government wants-and because he tries to inject a measure of respect in the service, those who are under him can say "we are not working with him?" It is barely a hair's breath that that man, efficient as he has always been, has not got himself fired. What a set-up is this? The Premier said they are not putting members of the Government on the Board because too much pressure
-v,,ould be applied. What happens is that unless you nre friendly with the Minister you cannot get a job. 10.40 p.m.
If I were to go over there as a friend of the lon. Minister, dare ary man to fly in my face and tell me to go and do the people's work! Ai-d if I got a dozen people to rgree with me, wt; could start a chorus. A man with a sense of responsibility to the public would have to get uneasy when such :hreats are made against him. I do not know if th,-e Hon. Minister has heard the current rumours; if you were able to get a Harbour Police boat and .comb the river, you would find a lot of bus parts
,n it. In such a case, are you going to allow the Gov%rnment to destroy further the economy of this ,community by doing something about which you hear dissatisfaction on the part of every member of the servicee? I head about saboteurs; the only saboteurs In this ease are the Ministers of the GIovernme,. They talk about nationalising the buses; they have not taken the opportunity to see that they must get workshops and that the accessories and gasolene el c. are obtained outside the local people. They
-hould negotiate overseas and see that their gasolen, is delivered in the Government tanks and controlled oy Government empl- vees; they should also im.port their tyres, tubes and spare parts, and they should comb the garages and get proper and resnectable personnel to take charge of the repair of their buses.
They should not act on cheap politics; they take over buses at 12 oI'clock, and at five past 12 or o the next day they have to revert to the people who ran them. People are made to feel that; wretched life is paradise and Heaven is 1-ell. He:n. members re prevented from saying what they really and truly feel in this matter. I am told that with respect to this amount for which the lion. iMinister has come, it is far from the real amount of the Government 's commitments to private concerns. I would like the Hon. Minister to say if the Courtesy Garage's bill is over $40,000 or not.


Sometimes it is good to help the Government tc, put a rope around its neck. [Hon. G. H. ADAMS: You took a long time to think that out.] That is not a long time; a few of us around here make it possible for the Government to go in a channel Which makes people believe :bat it is a wonderful Government, but sometimes things are so bad that you canot keep silent. The Hon. Premier knows that se retly.
Now there have been conflicting statements made by the Hon. Mu li sister of Communicatibns. At one time, he said that he had received tenders for oncessions, I think he said that they were eight of


them; and that that number is still good for them to be considered. If he feels that they are still good, if he knows that that is a fact, what is the good of asking this House to vote this $75,000 for the purpose of building sheds That is just like the action .f the Government il respect of the Lancaster Factory when it was to be constructed; they spent a lot of money to bring down a man from England t.o teach us how' to make clay bricks, then they abandoned the project and private enterprise took it over. I ask: if you have the concessions for the eight tenderers, why a :e you asking for this $75,000 for the purpose of building sheds for these buses? They are talking about buying a new bus for �25,000'; would a private investor commit himself ',o doing such nonsense? Why do they not get an .dviser? Some of us have not been able to get any experience in business, but surely we have had to start from scratch and build ourselves up, even if it is no more than selling a snap of rum for 12c; that gives experience in business too. They are only running helter-shelter in this matter.
I would really like to have a peep in at the discussions in Executive Committee, because I be. lieve that the Ministers are laughed at. I believe that the Hon. Premier says: "Never mind we have other people on the Executive .Committee, what we say goes." There are other people who know when they are hanging themselves but they just sit back and do not put them right, or put them in their favour 1 repeat, if you feel that you are going to give the buses to concessionaires, then do not let us spend so much money to prov.*de accommodation for these uses.
10.50 p.m.
MIr. Chairman, I think I have said enough and I wish to conclude by saying that, regardless of how employer and wherever there is an impersonal much money you spend or how much you may ignore constructive suggestions during the passing of this Resolution, if you do not relieve yourself of these buses now, the public in the future will hate you for having kept them. I say that because I knowN that the buses will cotinue to cost you more than what they will cost private concessionaires to run because the State is considered to be an impersonal employer the employee is never encouraged to give of his best because there is no, one to pat him ,an the shoulder and tell him that he is giving of his !jest. That is what happened in the coal mines in England. Regardless of what you pay inspectors
Von will not be able to run them as properly a private concessionaires. The last thing :you have done is to sack the inspectors, therefore you leave the conductors to do as they like. Your maxim is 1f two fellows have to benefit amid you get rid of one you save on the other. The question is: do you want as a Goverumemnt wh'.l depends on the support ef the same people whom you employ to put yourself in the position where .very day you have to create another enemy? If you keep these buses, every 'ouple of days you will be adding to the number of your opponents because you will have to criticise


them, you will have to lay them off, you will have to fire them momentarily, and every man you fire ' xl become your perpetual enemy. As a Government, you should adopt safer safeguards because if )rou have 1,000 supporters and everyday you los., oie you will soon not have any. [Laughter]
Sir, I can only do what lies at my disposal L defending the interests of the taxpayer and Barbados. Having done that i am hoping that the future of the bus service in t1 is Island will not be as shaky as" it has -been over 'lke past nine or' ten' months. [Cheers].


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Hon. G. H. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, I am
having very little to say. I am not trying to interrupt hon. members from speaking but I must say at this stage that in my twenty years in this Chaiber I have never listened to a more irresponsible and rrelevant harangue thap what we listened to fr'm the hon. senior member for St. John tonight. I did not interrupt the hon. junior member for Christ Church when he was speaking, but as all hoi. members know, a Minister is responsible for the running of the Government Departments -under his portfolio and he is only here to answer when you have a matter which is run by a public corporation. You cannot attach an,,- blame to a Minister for the running of a statutory corporation. If you do that it is just that you have no knowledge of what Government means. Every single member of this House has a perfect right to criticise the spending of Government money, whether through a Government Department or through a corporation because it is the taxpayers' money; but over and over again to say that the Minister does this or that is to shox, a perfect lack of knowledge of the most elementary .procedure of the running of Government.
Nobody stopped the hon. member when he was speaking. He got the cheers and the thunderings ol his colleagues, but he made one of the most useless speeches on this matter. If a Minister has a Secretary or Assistant Secretary who is in charge of the Departments under his concern and he allows things to go wrong, certainly he should resign. Under the present set up we have here - [A VOICE: Wio appoints the Boards?] The Boards are a vastly diferent matter from a Government Department.
Mr. Chairman, I am merely putting on the record the atual pot.ition. It is immaterial-to me and to the Govrnment (and that is not just words) how often we are abused. I have been hearing that for 20 years especially from the hon. senior member for St Philip who is only too eager to find the shelter of another Party. It does not make any difference to me personally. I do wish to say this: we have a Ministerial System but we are not even as far
advanced on the question of Civil Servants as there is in Great Britain. It is hard lines that a Minister should have to resign because a Civil Servant under Fim does something wrong when the Minister hinself has not the power of moving the particular Civil Servant out of his Ministry; but he has to resign. Therefore, you will see that a Minister who himself might not have given instructions to do something will have to resign because something has gone wrong in his Ministry. Obviously, if he has no means of controlling Civil Serva ts, it is hard for him to resign because a member in the Civil Service for ,whose appointment or dismissal or trarsier he has no control does something wrong. It is unjust. In England, a M{inister has that power, therefore any thing which goes wrong in his Ministry, in the last analysis he can be heid responsible by his retaining in his department a particular Civil Servant. H~ow can you pin a Government corporation on to a: Thn,stry? Hion. members have in front of them the Act dealing with the Transport Board. I saw somebody throwing it about over there. It is the Governor-in


Executive Committee which creates a public cor poration and the only duty of the Executive is to say - [A VOICE: :What is it that he is saying? I am only putting it o-i the record for the benefit of the public.
11.00 p.m.
When you come to a public corporation made tender an Act and it is not efficiently ru1n, it may then become a question whether Government should Pnt repeal the Act and make the particular institu.


tion a Government Department; but you get here and attack the Minister sentence after sentence as though he is responsible. It is not a Government Department. You appoint a Board to the best of your ability and hope it works well. When the shouting is over, I will still say what I have to say. VTe have in this Island a Natural Gas Corporation ard as far as we know we could not have improved the personnel of the Board. I have already mentioned to members that at least two Canadian Setators have told me that the present Head knows more about natural gas than anybody else in the whole Dominion of Canada. That was our good luck. 'If however, we pass an Act, Mr. Chairman - I am answering the hon. member, it is immaterial to me 'f they laugh or shout, I am repeating it to the public and it will appear in the Official Gazette. You appoint a Housing Board - the hon. senio.c member for the City was a member - so let him
ask himself if he would have tolerated in that position any interference from a Minister or a memb:-r from the Executive Committee. The hon. senior member for the City happens to know something, it is said, about housing, and therefore he was a good member of the Housing Board, but if he were a bad member of the Housing Board, wNould you blame a member of the Executive.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: On a point of order. That was a Board appointed by Statute. This is a public corporation and the hon. senior member for 3t. John was saying the Minister appointed the personnel of the Board. if you pass an Act and say this is a public corporation, it can only be successful or unsuccessful if the personnel appointed by the Minister prove ccMpetent or incompetent. Who can account for it bu the Minister?
Hon. G. H. ADAHS: The hon. members on the Other Side were not attacking the personnel of ihe Board. The whole of their speech for the benefit of the crowd was talk about election year. Whc* is doing more electioneering in this island at this moment than the hon. members who face me? The argument is if you have a weak Board, change it. That is not the approach, which would be the only reasonable approach if they had the facts to support the allegations that the Board was ineffective, iut it was too good an occasion to miss with this House so full of visitors as we have never seen it before.
Mr. BARROW: On a point of, order, Mr.
Chairman: is the member for St. Joseph calling Your Honour's attention to strangers in the gallery? He seems to be by the remarks used to the hon. senior member for St. John. Is the member for St. Joseph calling the attention of the Chair to strangers.? Do not let us talk about electioneering and that sort of thing.
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: As I was saying, the opportunity was too good to miss. They criticise the Government over the running of the transport; and any amount of untrue statements which the member for St. Lucy conies out with makes it look as if the buses go along and drop to pieces.! All these half-truths and complete untrue statements are


used to bolster up an attack on the Government! The setting is suitable, and the hon. senior member for St. John whom we have learnt to know as a person who (all to his credit) spe-ds hours and hours preparing his speeches has in the interim departed from the text of his speech to put in morality and :mmorality every now and then for good measure
Mr. ALLDER: On a point of explanation, I should like to inform the Hon. Premier that I d not study a speech or enlarge it. I get up impromptu .nd speak according to my personal feelings on the ignorance displayed by the Government Bench.


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214 OFFICIAL GAZETTE JANUARY 3, 1957


Hon. G. H. ADMS:I was trying to commend him for spendiing the time preparing his .speech; but he wants to put it the other way! If he prepares his speech and gets the facts right he would not make such nistatemets as he has made he has asked what is .he sense of asking for $75,000 to construct work-shops. As to the clay scheme, can there be a more glaring instance of a reckless mis-statement? This House passed a first-class Bill, a Resolution for money ,to get it going; the Other Place threw it out and yet he talked about our starting a scheme and then discarding it. That is his disregard for speaking the truth.
Mr. ALLDER:2 1r. Chairman, I do not like to object to anything said against me in this Chainber because I know such statements do not make me what I am not. I would not worry to ask the meul.ber to withdraw that -.tateinent, but the hon. memDer cannot refute that the Government did spend large sums bringing Mr. Brannam here, and atthough the Other Place did not go favourably with the Resolution, the hon. member knows he has a weapon whereby he could have Mr. Braunam brought here again, for the factory set-up ;. but the hon. member did not want such a knowledge to be possessed in the island, at least in the position of Government and he allowed it to die. If the Other Place turns down anything this Chamber sends up, he knows better than I do the weapon at his disposal to use to override them. He did not use it then.
Hov. G. H. ADAMS: I would not honour ulie member by replying to that, but let me assure him that the Other Place would have thrown it out a second time. [A .VOICE: What about a third tin e?] It is absolutely immaterial what opinion hon. members have of- me and if I live to be as old as Methuselah 1 would always be like that. Utterly and absolutely indifferent! But what I do say Sir, is
-this: when the hon. menher reads his speech again he will see it is one long slinging attack on the Ion. Minister for Which he has no right. You appoint a Board and hope it does wet1. The personnel of the Board has been changed and I am not exchanging any
secret over the fact th at new members have been
-ppointed to the Board, but I will say this again: When it comes to a public corporation you choose what in your judgment you consider to be men who
-will run it effectively If you discover you cannot find the best people, or the people do not give you satisfaction, it is a matter for your coiisideraticn as Government whether we should not make it a Government Department, in which case you are responsible for running it. But to get here tonight sentence after sentence, attacking the Minister! The Transport Board is not the Waterworks; if it were the Waterworks Department, he deserves every'
word said against him if it can be proven. I h ope that hon. members have read the statement "one swallow does not make a summer", and you assume because one bus hit a post or bridge and was damaged that therefore all will fall to pieces. The Government frcmr the first moment appointed a Commissioner to investigate. The Government can-


inot go further than that. I do ask hon. members to ask themselves whether the personnel of the Board has always been the same.
11.10 p.m.
When it comes to the question of a public Corporation, it is a matter for the ,Government to consider whether the establishment of a public Corporation is the answer to this or any particular problem. Ours is a corporate responsibility. I deprecate strongly, and I would be failing in my duty if I did not men,tion it, this pandering to the popular delight of hearing evil of other people. You throw mud on a man


and every little drop of mud induces laughter; umi if you say what a line fellow he is, people wilt wonder ii it is really true. Especally iaced with the problem of not knowing when there will be a General Election, anct fearing that wnen the Election comes he may not be successful, I can well understand the attitude of the hon. senior member for St. John.
Mr. Chairman, I have nearly finished; I deplore the fact that not one single hon. member, when attacking the Hon. Minister, has given the Government any credit for having appointed a strong committee to investigate every single reported act of conduct on the part of the Staff of the Transport Board since it has started. In addition to bringing down Mr. Gibbons from the point of view of running the service, the Government has. appointed a Committee composed of Mr. Osborne of the Income Tax Department, P'arfitt of the Water Works Department, and Mir. Herbert Williams to enquire into the complete working of the Transport Board from its inception, including every reported case of conduct on the part of the staff. We have not been given any credit f or trying our best all the time; instead of that, the hon. senior member for St. John talked about petty politics. The word "petty" is too big a word for the hon, member's harangue tonight; all he thought was that this is a first-class opportunity for him and he may get a few pats on his back when he goes down the stairs tonight.
Mr. VAUGHAN: The Hon. Premier has made (ne-half of the speech which I intended to make. I have a note here to this effect: "If the Government were responsible for the running of the Transport Board, the things which have gone wrong there could not have gone wrong, because Government Departments are always debated in this House." I repeat: "If the Transport Board, were a Government Department, what happened there could not have happened." !The Government did not create the Transport Board as a wish of theirs or as a declared policy of theirs; they created the Transport Board to run the c.us service of this Colony, to carry people to and fro, because an emergency had been forced upon thtem. The concessionaires put up an ultimatum to the Government saying: "Let us charge more; we mnust get more fares, or we do not run our buses." What was the Government to do? Was the Government to allow the people to be left stranded on the Government? There was no choice about the matter. [Mr. E. D. MIOTTLEY: That is not true.] For months negotiations were going on with the con(essionaires, and the Government offered them a reodae of 15% on the gasolene as a s ubstitute.in: lieu of the raising' of bus fares, that, 15% representing $65,000. Afer the concessionaires were offered that subsidy of $65,000, they refused it and they wanted a 50% rebate on the gasolene which would have amounted to $217,000. If the Government had acceded to the request of the concessionaires, there would have been a deficit of not $95,00,0, but a deficit of $217,000.
1 1.20. p.m.
Sentiment, or passion, or abuse is one tiing; but the cold figures preach another thing. These


are the facts which I have stated. I have even in ay notes here an example of the running of the Natural Gas Corporation. Let me repeat, it was not a ques tion of choice, it was not a question of doctrine, it was not a question of socialist ideology., it was a question of absolute necessity. The concessionaires refused after a certain date to run their buses. What was the Government to do'? It was forced upon them. If Government had failed to take over the buses, they would have faileJt in their prime duty to the


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JANUARY 3, 1957


OFFICIAL


citizens of this county. I commended them th,, .,d I commend them now.
Whatever is wrong with the Transport Boai'd (and admittedly a lot is wrong with it) let us change the membership of it and if Government cannot get a proper Transport Board, make it an arm of the Government - a Civi' Department - and run it. It is very well for some.hon. members to talk about Government increasing the wages of qhe drivers and conductors, and the same drivers and condu2tors who regard this as their Government hava operated against it. Do you think they have done that of their own fre~e will? They have been influenced to do so by interested persons who are determined to see that this Governmeut corporation roes not succeed. There are interests in this colony vho would do anything to prove that anything which Government sponsors must fail and the success of the Transport Board would be a defeat to such interests. The happenings were near enough to L!low those interested to operate and it is my conviction that those interest have operated in in#Iuencing people who regard this Government as theirs to commit certain sabotage aogaint the publi transport.
Mr. J. C. MOTTLEY: M\r. Chairman, the last hon. member who cpoke has changed the tenure of this whole debate. All the other hin. members argumentt was to the effect that this Gover nent ,vilfully, maliciously and vindictively grasped the t 'ansport system from the Bus Concessionaires and utilised it to their own purpose. The hon. member who spoke before the last, knows that the Govern1ient was forced into this position. When conditions like this arise, they call for sober reflection on the part of hon. members so as to be able to arrive at a satisfactory solution in resolving the question.
Sir, all the hon. members have pa. nted a woeful picture on this matter of public transport, and I want to say that it is .really in a bad and deplorable condition; but the Government started out with good intentions, and as you know, good intentions do not always get g-ood results. When this Government was forced into this position, it did not have the nerve to do the right thing. The right thing to do was to look at this situation squarely in the face and see that the situation demanded a rise in bus fares. If that were done, we would not be in this position today but w'e are in this position and we must find a way oat, come what may.
Mir. Chairman, if the travelling public or the conductors and drivers have the interest of the pub!ic at heart, as regards this public transport service these .conditions with which we are confronted today would not be in existmee; but everybody who knows something about it, knows that there is some sinister influencee at work to prevent the successful operation of this bus service by Government.
Sir, on my way from home in St. Philip to the City on these buses, many tintes I have to argue about t:he way these :buses are operated. by the conductors atnd drivers. If these people had maintained these buses up to the standard which obtained when the


private concessionaries had them in hand we would rot have had the trouble we are having today and it i.; those conductors and drivers who have got better wages. Ha veT,-hey given better service? That is a question which hon. members should answer.
My colleague made some statements with which I really do not agree ,but the time will come when I will reiterate .them. There were statements which he never used to make when I sent him to this Houst of Assembly.


GAZETTE 215

I do not know if the Government in coming down with this Resolution for this money is doing the right thing. I think the right thing for this Government to do is to get rid of these buses, as quickly as they can. Give them back to the concessionaires and get new ones. However, in the mean time they have to,, carry on, therefore you must give them the money to carry on.
1.30, p.m.

That is what I feel but in the mean time they nave Lo carry on so we have to give them some money to carry on with. Get them off your hands because the general public does not seem to be with you, so therefore get rid of them as soon as possible. Isay they.have got to: carry on so we have to give them money. I do not know about finding snecs. i tnmink you can cut out that, if possible. We have got to hnd the solution a narinatait quickly because this, Sir, is one of those conditions that need nnmediate remedy. I would, not say thl Government was entirely right in taking over ,the buses but they were forced into this position out of a clear sky by the concessionaires with "either you meet my demands or you take them a~id run them" and the Government was bewildered and had to ask them to carry on a week longer until they could take them over, and the Government thought with the eo(4 eration of all and sundry they would make a success of the operation of these buses, but they failed. Whether this is election year or not, you have got to. face the fActs that you failed in this enterprise and should get it off your hands as quickly as possible, and I believe the public will be with you in. the: elec tion and bring you back here. [A VOICE: Do you really think so?] Do you think they @re going ti bring the D.L.P.? That has a doubtful father and a doubtful mother, and the general public will do well to examine who was the father of that party. I know the father and
mother and I have no dealings with them. This new omnibus might be necessary for experimental purposes, Sir, but I think it is a lot of money, to experiment with. These lust two Items Nos. 13 and 14, I think we can do without if we are dispose. ing with these buses. We do not need them an. I would advise the Government to examine the utilisation of this money in that respect. Get rid of these buses; this nationa~1isation is something we. cannot stand in this island. We have not the talent or thie ability to operate a nationalised utility sucssul [Cheers] I want to assure Government that I am in hearty sympathy with their dilemma and they can rely on my support because I was sent here by men 8nd women of the suffering public, and when, they sent m~e here they told me "Mottley, I know you and your colleague cannot do much, but whatever measitre Government brings to the .benefit of the people supports it", and no electors can say I am not doing that. If I had to face the electors to come back here,


one could not stop me on that because they cannot say I am not supporting Government with measures for !he benefit of the improvement of my people. There are a lot of ideas going on that my people forget the position they were in eight or ten years ago. Rememh-er who was the direct cause of the amenities they .re enjoying now. [A VOICE: Who?] Not you, Sir! From morning I get up, arguing for the improvement of my people to now. My colleague and I are not seeing eye te eye. le has deviated from that course we have followed seven years ago and I do not approve of his deviation. He has not told the








OFFICIAL GAZETTE


people in St. Philip yet. [A VOICE:You do not come to the meetings !] It is all right. I am fighting for the 'poor and the under-dog.
Mr. Chairman, with these few remarks, Sir 1 am appealing to the Government to use their best ingenuity to solve this bus problem. There are some things that we will never succeed in as long as you hold them in hand.
Mr. ALLDER: No remarks could be more
heartening than those coming from the hon. j unior :neinber for St. Philip who is a permanent supporter (if the Government, and when he makes a suggestion like that it is sufficient to have some effect on the Government's decision to keep these buses. 1' was definitely and deeply surprised to hear the hon. junior member for St. Philip. In respe ct of my 'colleague I cannot say I appreciate, very much the points which he made and as a 'matter of tact it appears as if he were not sufficiently convinced of his statement and it caused an apparent burst of his lungs. What I would say is this, Mr. Chairman, everybody knows that the hon. member has corrupted what
would otherwise have been a wonderful political career. [A VOICE. Who?] My colleague.
. Mr. CHAIRMAN: You must get on with the Resolution.
21r. ALLDER. I am getting to Resolution,
The hon. member insinuated that wrong charges were being made against the Minister and against the Government in respect of the running of the bus service. What the hon. member does not know and what he pretends to be ignorant about now is that whatever happens over there at the public Transport Department, the Hon. MIinister has got 'to give his sanctions before any Board can attempt to put it into practice. Everybody knows that. The only person who does not know that is my vacillating friend- [A VOICE: Are you really serious.?] 1,
am serious and more than that. Who created the b.)oard? The Government. Who is put responsible for the Executive running of the Department? The .Minister of Highways and Transport. Who recommended the appointments to the Board? The Minister for Highways and Transport. It is he who is handling the Resolution. He is responsible for the running of the Department and we eould not come and attack the Board and accuse it for any wrong running of the Department. It is the -Minister who comes to us to get our approval for the continual running of the Department and it is he who is responsible, and what is more the Board did not bring this Resolution here; it is the Minister for Highways a id Transport and it is Goverment policy. II4.O0 p.m.
That is the Government's policy. Does iny col.eague want to telL[ me or the Conmmittee that the Board decided that they must have a ,bus for $25,,000 as an expedient ? That is the policy of the Government and the policy of the H-on,. Miinister. Does. he want to say that the Board constituted as it is, wanted to erect accomnmodal;ion costing $75,000 to house buses which the H-on. MVinister has said they are about to give to the new conucessionaires? Let my colleague


Change his path; do not let him play the game of a lawyer, that is to say, if I get there first then, I am Tight.
Mr. VAUGHANIT am not at, all flattered; if
T am playing the role of a lawyer, other people bePides me feel Ithat I would have made a good one. As far as vacillation is concerned, I do not think that the pot should laugh at the kettle. I bean my political career as a member o6f this Party: I have ret-urn-d to it, and I have no apologies to make to anybody.


I shall never fail in, defending this Party when it should be defended; I have told my colleague before, I told him.-during the consideration of the vote in
- espect of the visit of Pr-incess Margaret, that the people of St. John have sent me here, and it is on them th-at I have to depend. I have lived to see the Government
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member must keep to this Resolution, because other honourable members must do the same thing.
Wtr. VAUGHAN: I am keeping to the Resolut!ion. iThis is a quotation from the speech of the honourable senior member for St. John when the Government created the Transport Board. This is what he said:
"Sir, I an going to vote for the passing of this R, esolution because I feel out of a sense of responsibility I should not do anything to tie the hands of the C government but I hope they will"
Mr. ALLDEP-: The honourable member is reading from a slip of paper something which purports to be a part of my speech, and I do not remember having made any such remark-, if the honourable member is permitted to present a slip of paper and read something which purports to represent a part of my speech, I do not think that that should be done. The proper thing to d.o would be to get the report of the debates handled by the Clerk of this House. I must object to the honourable member quoting from my speech remarks which I do not remember making.
Mr. VAUGHAN: This is nothing against the honourable member.
Mr. ALLDER: I object to the quotation to which the honourable member has referred as repre'ccnting a part of my speech.
?4r. VAUGHAN: At page 114 of the Official Gazette the honourable member's speech appears. This is what he said:
"Sir, I am going to vote for the passing of this Resolution because I feel out of a sense of responsibility I should not do anything to tie the hands of the Government, but I hope tlhey will reciprocate the feelings which I have expressed."
M1r. ALLDER: I have heard the honourable member criticise the speeches reported in this House. I am not hiding under that; I do not say anything to-day which I cannot repeat to-morrow. I did not ;sk the Government to reciprocate anything; I said. "It does appear to me that this amount of $30,000 is only a drop of the amount which we will have to spend on this issue; and I ani appealing to the H-on. Premier, iiot the Hon. Minister of Communications, v ho I feel should be more responsible, to see that if it akes five days or five years to negotiate with the present concessionaires to continue to do so; do not (lose your (loors. [Ch~eers.]
My attitude was this: having been injected with ilie virus of nationalisation by the H-on. Premier, I. felt that if this Government were as Socialist as it pretends to be, it was attempting the first phase of the principle of na~tionalisation, and therefore I would not stand in its way, although my7 support did not go
without caution. That caution "was correct, because


we see now where this matter has cost us more than 'it should have cost us. That is the position. I do not see why the honourable member should cheer; it all proves that they did not take any heed to my caution, otherwisee my speech, instead of being what it has been, would have been singing their praise for having ,-'1barked on the first stage of the nationalisation of te Transport system of this Island. 11.50 p.m.


JANU~ARY .3, 195,7


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JANuARY 3, 1957 OFFICIAL GAZETTE ~17


Mr. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, there a-(
just two points I want -to make and the first is this: an attempt has been made to throw a smoke scree-n in the eyes of the public on this matter There has Leen a red herring thrown across the trail as regards the responsibility of the Hon. Minister .)f Communications and the Transport Board I want
to say for the explaiation of the public that we on this side of the Table criticised, not what the Board has done or fail to do, but the policy of th,e Government itself as demonstrated in the ResoiuLion before the House. What has been done is merely x- attempt to draw a red herring across the trait. It is merely an attempt to becloud the ssue for the Government to say tonight that the Minister -A Communications has no direct responsibility for the actions of the Transport Board when the Board is not responsible for the Resolution before the House.
Mr. Chairman, th, Board does not want to buiv a new diesel bus for $25,000, nor has the Board said it wants $75,000 to accommodate buses. Those things are aspects of the Government policy, therefore wc are justified in criticising the Government and the lion. Minister of Communications on those grant,.
The final point is this: my colleague, the hin. junior member for St. Philip, has seen fit to express opposition to certain views put forward by me. It .s his right to do so if he feels that they coirflict with his views, but I object more strenuously and emphatically to his implying that I am not fulfilling the pledges which I came to this House to fulfil. He himself has told me that his reasons for supporting the Government Party are twofold. The first is that the hon. member does not want the session to come to an end before the five years he was elected and the second is that he is not certain
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMIMINS. Mr:-Chairman, I rise on a point of Order. I think you said that members should sl1ick to the Resolutiomn.
Mr. VAUGHAN: You ruled that in my case, .ir. Chairman.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I did rule that members should keep to the Resolution but the hon. senior member for St. Philip is replying to something which has been said by the hon. junior member for St. Philip. As soon as he strays, I will stop him.
Mr. CRAWFORD. Mr. Chairman, if I am
forced to state what those inducements were, I will state them. However, Sir,- (To Mr. J. C. MOTTLEY: you are elected for five years. If you fail to continue, that is a matter for you) but I am prepared to vote for what I think is in the best interest of the people. As regards the offering of inducements, it is not the first time that people whom I brought in here have saccumbed to the blandishments of the members or. the opposite side of thc Table and have done it to satisfy their own personal interest at the expense of the interest of the public. As regards the hon. junior member for St. Philip, I warned him that those inducements wilt never materialise. It is truec that they might materialise now, but they have been
-anging over for a very long time now'.
Mr. J. C. MOTTLEY- Mrt. Chairman, I do aot think any useful purpose will be served in. my replying now to the hon. member.


Hon. G. H. ADAIMS: Mr. Chairman, I am merely rising to say this: I have never ever, in spite (if what any person may, say, offered any inducement to anybody to join or rejoin the Labour Party. Never ever have I done that. I do not believe a word which the hon. senior member for St. Philip ha , faid because it is utterly impossible for the hon. junior member for St. Philip to hare, told him that. I have never tolc any hon. member that I will put him on the Executive or anything of that sort. I have never held out any inducements whatsoever


1o any member or anybody to join or rejoin the Labour Party. I will go on oath in saying that.
Mr. CRAWFORD: I am not surprised that he will go on oath with that.
Tr. CHAIRMAN:That is the end of that matter. I am not entertaiin, ay more of it.
Mr. CRAWFORD:. What about Mr. Talma and i~r. Blackman on the Executive and every one of them.
lu- .e
Mr. CHAIRMVIAN: The honourable member is breaking the Rules of this House. The honourable member is calling honourable members by, their names.
Hon. C. E. TALIA: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a point of Order. I want to bring to the attention of the hon. senior member for St. Philip, it is entirely this House and the Island as a, whole that at no, time have any inducements been hel out by the Hon. Premier to me. In so far as the statement made by the hon. senior member for St. Philip it is entirely untrue and unfounded and deserved no recognition by any right thinking member of the Community.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: Mr. Chairman, I
promised myself that I will generate no heat In this debate. As a matter of fact, Sir, I have heard on more than one occasion that it is because of the re. marks made by the ho., junior member for St. Peter and myself on one occasion in this House that the Government has four, d itself taken up with this matter of bus transport. Well I hope that is not true. As you know, Sir, long before this matter of bus concessionaires and the question of the public transport system came before this House, I as a member Af the St. Michael's Vestry had to fight with certaiui ,oncessionaires, (or at least the Vestry had to do so) and I think that wher that fight was going on, the don. Premier who was then practising at the Bar had the opportunity of defending one or two of the bus concessionaires who had refused to pay parochial taxes. At that time I felt very strongly in the matter; and if you wil recall, Mr. Chairman, on the .ort occasion that this matter was discussed in this House I took a particular stand and I am going to take that stand again tonight.
As far as I am cmcerned, the sixteen question. asked by the Hon. Leader of the Opposition were discussed by my party and we felt that in fairness to the general public these questions should be ams wered by the Hon. Minister of Communications. You will observe, Sir, that the first question asked is what is the policy of the Government in connection with the Transport of the Island. That is the first question and upon that hinges the entire 'Criticisni which we are offering.
If I head right, Sir, the Hon . Minister said that lne decision of the Government relative to the Tranport of the Island.
1.2.0,1 am.
MV]r. CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. senior member for the City continue ?
If I heard right, Sir, the lIon. Minister said that which we asked in respect of the Goveriiment policy on the transport of the island-I want to take this. along log-ical lines because when I am through I can justify my position for not voting for this at all. In


other words. I am not going to vote for this, but 1 must justify it logically. The Government's reply lo the Leader of the Opposition to question one is that their policy is the same when they took over the buses; and they are trying to carry on this transport system, and at present they have eight applications and the applications remain the same. In other
words, they have said today that while as a socialist Narty they believe ii nationalisation. it is not their policy to nationalise the transport system of the


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


217


JANUARY 3, 1957









218 OFFICIAL GAZETTE J~uA1~Y 3, 1957


island. [A VOICE: Who said sol.'] If the hon. member wants to correct it, please say now that they do not intend to nationalise it. They haye said at this stage that they do not intend to nationalise it. The hon. member said so here today and if the Premier is going to contradict that, would he please say so now. I am trying to argue this as logically as possible. They do not intend to nationalise. I foi" one am very glad to hear that. The records will show how I on the last occasion voted because I felt myself it was a question of Hobson's choice put to this House. The 'Government negotiated with the concessionaires and after some negotiation they reached a final day on which concessionaires said they would give up and continue to run no more. That is the reason why I voted for the sum of money to operate the transport service until they got some settlement, and the settlement were given then was that they would advertise for new concessionaires offering their ihe concessions apd they would at least have it run again by concessionaires with different conditions Now, I take it from what the Minister said in reply to the Leader of the Opposition that the position re mains the same. We went on to ask, Sir, amon6other things, how many concessions Government did take over. The Hon. Minister said they took over eight and that they have since given back one. In other words, they are fourteen now in the island; seven are being run by private enterprise and seven presently run by the Government. But let us allow i'or the shortcomings and the unfortunate position, I say unfortunate, the Government found themselves in at the time in August 1955; that is, that they had to take them over because they had to con.inue some sort of service. Now, I want to know what has not been answered to the satisfaction of the Opposition; having advertised and having eight applicants, why they have not given out the concessions to these eight people? I heard in a sotto voae voice for the first time something about the price, but we have the notes made here, and the Minister may have imagined he may have said that, but we are asking what price was asked. Let me accept the answer given now by the Premier-the question of price.I do not know what lie means by price. If it a fact, have operating all over the island are still making money-wd I would. like to say here a,nd now that that statement cannot be disputed because these concssionaires have hemeii returning, not only in this parish, but in the other parishes where they operate, trade tax and I think I am in a position to say with authority they have also been returning income tax. If therefore the seven that is being run by private enterprise are now returning a trade profit, it is difficult to understand how you have been able to throw so much money away in so short a space of time. It is true to say the representation which has been made to Government when~ they set up to investigate the question of increased bus-fares-they recommended taking an overall picture of the inconie, that they were not making sufficient revenue and as a result an ultimatum has been given and I say Government took ,over temporarily, arnd established authority for the


formation of a Board and the Board was set up. I want to draw this to the Government's attention. Let us forget anythir .o about nationalisation, just let us look at it this way. The Government set up a Comn'ittee as a result of representation made to us to in,rease bus fares and that report has been rightly read by the Minister who said "We could not get the
-ecessary data of the number of passengers carried and so on and we will not recommend an increase.' It is strikingly strange that Government on immedi-


ately setting up or taking over the concessions which they took over, before having, (at least I am hoping this is so) any information to the contrary, went About it and the first thing they did was to say we could not find books or sufficient data to tell us how .nany passengers they were carrying for the recommendation of an increase. Government said and I agreed then and now they were not going to increase Ithe fares, but-the Board which was appointed by Gov-nmentu-and let them deny this-Who was the Board? lWr. Chase, who held every other job in the island. I remember well what I said: with all of the ,landerous remarks about this gentleman apid what n;ot that this Board was doomed to failure, 'Chase failed in everything he went into and he failed the ntext morning he was appointed, and he was at that time also employed with the Gulf (il Company. 12.10 a.m.
I am trying not to generate any heat; I am tryiag to put the true position clearly. The GovernElent were told that this business did not pay,' but they appointed a, Board and on the next morning, the Board increased everybody's salaries, and paid to a number of men nere thai what the Companies had paid. You took over 8 concessions from these concessionaires who employed 100 men; instead of working for some time, for a month or two, you decided that you wanted five times as many Inspectors as were formerly employed. I should like to say this: if you want the praise, then you must wcept the blame. Th, Hon. Minister tried to impress upon this House how the deficit was made up; the Government paid more salaries. which
amounted to $55,000 You wanted the praise for sayingg that you took over the Transportation set. 'ice, and you started off and paid more money, without seeing how the business would work. Who else would have done ffhat except they were told to do so by the Minister of Transport? Must the Hon. .Minister not accept any criticism for the action of the Board? The Boar-I under the Chairmanship of Mr. Chase, told you next morning-I am presuming t'iat the recommendations must come from the
Board-" We cannot see how we can run without 100 more men., and without putting on 25% of this expenditure
Hon. G. H. ADA]VIS: If the hon. member reads the Transport Board Act, he will see that the Board may employ servants at such salaries as the Governor-in-Executive Committee may approve. We do not appoint chauffeurs, conductors, inspectors or anybody else; the Board must make recommendations to the Executive Committee and the Executiv e Committee approves. 'We approved increases in sal.aries to employees.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: You accept that criticism, but you do not accept the responsibility. Who else but the Governm-rnt would say: "We take over this business today; we do not know' what profit you niade, but the first thing we will do, is to in' rease salaries?" [Hon. G. Ht. ADAM{S: We paid a decent wage.]
The criticisms offered by the hon. senior muember for St. ,John are perfectly in order. The Hon. l-remier could hardly got out of this; who else would


mave done this? Are you going to pay a "spy" nore than you pay a conductor or dri'Ver? [Hon. G. H. ADAMS: All over the world inspectors get n-ore than drivers.] Do not talk nonsense; Mr. Chase recommended that an inspector was worth-, more money than a driver and therefore they paid the inspectors more than the drivers and conductors. That is one phase of the matter in respect of which T do not see how the Government could expect not to accept any criticism I. (. . . , , . . .


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


JAuAY 3,' 1957


21.8








JANUARY 2 1957 ~jF'FICIAL GAZETTk 219


The Hon. Minister of Communications must plead ignorance of any knowledge of Transport. If the hon. member had been in the Taxi business still, and he had been running his car, do you think he would have decided to pay his drivers more money immediately until he knew what the income of the business was? How can you ask this Committee to level its criticism purely on the Board as a Board? The Minister who is responsible must accept the
criticism.
As far as I am concerned, I say this: if it is Lrue that you have 11o intention of nationalist. your bus service, in all seriousness, then tell us so, but do notHon. M. E. COX; I do not know where the hon. member was when I said that. What I said was that certain people had applied for concessions; these tenders remain good, but it is the Governnent 's intention to continue the running of this service with the ultimate aim of running the Island's Transport s,-ervice.
12.20 a.m.
Mr. GODDARD: The honourable member has now said that for the first time to-night. He said that it was the intention of the Government to keep one or two of these concessions. I asked what are the reasons for the Government retaining these Concessions but the Hon. Minister did not answer.
Mr. Chairman, he said that now for the
first time. He said today that it was the intention of the Government to keep one or two of the concessions and I asked him: "for what purpose?" The
question was never answered. Mr. Chairman, I hope when the debate is recorded that the Hon. Minister will come back here as a man and say that he agrees with the record.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEiY: It was the first question and I pressed upon the Hon. Leader of the Opposiion to ask it again. This is the first time that the [Ion. TI-inister of Communications has said anything bout that. The Hon. Minister said that he told the Committee that they would keep one or two of the buses and I asked the Hon. Minister to repeat that.
Hlion. G. H. ADAMS: I just want to say that t he -overnment has never made any secret of its intentions as rewards nationalization but the Government wanted experience.
Mr,. E. D. MOTTLEY: The Governiment started off with nationalisation. I said to the Hon. Leader ol the Opposition that when they, come to find ot n hat is the overall cost of the Transport system and they insist about nationalisation it would be infiuitely better to nationalize the Electric Company. It is not any new thing" for the Hon. Premier to ,ay that he has not abandoned nationalisation. I think after their f nal analysis of the bus situation that they would be infinitelyx better to let private enterprise carry o" with it.
Thb hon. senior member for St. Joh. said that thle 7.5 00 with which you propose to build sheds to hou the buses seems to him a waste o

q.ont that. As regards the $25.000 for the 44-seater diesel omnibus, all I would say is that it will be good at times if some of us would travel by buses. hat JI wonder is this: Does the Hlon. Minister think that that bus is the one which we- need in, Barbados takiny into consideration our narrow roads and our Irc-nsport system? It has been drawn to our attention that the Directors of Transport in Enuland and Anerica have had to reduce the size of their buses


and put into operation, a bus of a smaller size. I regret very much that under the circumstances I cannot support the purchase of that bus.
As to the idea of he Hon. Minister speaking of graveyard buses, it is a fact that that type of bus is known as a graveyard bus. As soGI. as those
buses have done anything in the vicinity of 150,000 Miles they are put in what is called the graveyard and they are remodelled and then reshipped to places which want them. People like Colonel Julien are famous for obtaining them and then shipping them to other places. If you travel to big countries you will find that some of those buses are just like the ambulances which Colonel Julien gave you. Of course, the Hon. Minister said that they are going to consult the Crown Agents on the matter. I do not know, but they must know whether it is well that they should consult Crown Agents. Nothing we can do will persuade them not to invest ia such buses or not to invest in thiis new 44-seater diesel bus. I woald only say, speaking for myself, that it is most regrettable that the Government has not seen fit as yet to settle the matter as regards these applications for concessions. The Government should get that matter settled oince aid for all, because on the face of it, you have divided your island transport system into 14 sections and y'.n have not heard one of the seven concessionaires who are runiing their buses privately saying that it is not paying them. They are perfectly willing to carry on. May I ask you this question? Here it is you have seven concessionaires whio have b.eein carrying on. Have you as ye'. suggested to any of those applicants for new concessions that you will take A, B. C. or D? I would like to know what is keeping back the Goverimnent from award)ig those concessions to the eight applicants or so which you have. 12.30 a.m.
I heard something about price but let me ask [his again. There is no possibility of having the ,ames and going into it and asking if they will rake over these buses which you have. Now. everyLody knows and I am putting this to the Governruient - you had to take over at a time to fill the reachh because of the dead-lock. No one could be al'noyed if during the period when it started to run and you found you were going down the hill and YoU found you could iiot carry on, this as a system] ;-&n decide to approach the eight concesionaires and the Governient sued t'he proprietors for part of the expense. It would be better to do it that way. There s o two ways about it. For you to carry on, the transport system of this island, it would cost betweeni two or three million dollars and I cannot iniagine any Government outside the Mental Hospital wanting to carryf on transport system as it is now. What I am saying now, is this: you have Lasted a lot of money in the appraisals for the x arious companies. We realise we had to give in, n ,e had no proper management, no proper sheds, and we have got to account for a certain amount of depreciation. Could we not see it is better to drop 'p30,000 now than to go on as you are doing? That is a businesslike approach to this question. Bul let me say while I put the suggestion it might fall on deaf ears. YenH conic here for $75,000 to build a


garage. Would it cos, you more than $75,000 bet- ween what the ex-cencessionaires are asking and what the new ones are asking? And this House would be more than unreasonable if they did not appreciate that because you did not have the where-,withal; and anyhow it is a great thing you had to pall back on Chase. God help you! Chase was Chairman. [A VOICE: He was not Chairmar,.
Anyhow he was a member of the Board. I am coming


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220 OFFICIAL GAZETTE JANUARY 3, 1957


down so that, I am suggesting here to you tonight that it would be infinitely better, and I still share the views that it should be impossible for you to have seven and say you are making money and give the ,other more. Therefore, mind you this, MI,. Chairman, this is diametrically based on rationalisation and I would have no objection if Go ernment, eame with a policy amn said we are goirg to nationolise. They cannot fa'e that because the Premier agrees we would ha,17e to spend much money on a new Hospital first. *Wie share your view about the Hospital, therefore, you should allow, pri-vate enterprise to carry on the transport service and you should come and face it clearly. Do not come and ask for $75,000 to build a shed and what not aud still know you have to have these things. If you are loing to nationalise, conie straight out and do that. I expect this House would have to accept the valuation put upon these tuses, but we do not have the wherewithal, the depreciation, because the seven are making money and paying income tax and trade tax. You are silently awarding concessions and ,,drawing-your 40% of the profit without paying out one red cent so why pay out a lot of money here, and you have got to admit this. I think the only person who would not admit this would be the Minister for Communications who has said that the transport service of Barbados has been ran better now they are run by Governmeet than when they were owne, t and run by private enterprise. It is only when you .have great a-tipathy to the truth that you can say things like that. No one can expect that the Minister has not really heard criticism from every possible angle. The Premier would be shocked because
-the transport service has become shocking. You have g'ot to admit it is absolutely shocking. This is what I have to say; if you are going to naticnalise now and you agree you htave more essential services, call a spade a spade. Do aot come and build sheds for these buses. Come and say we have got this amount of money and finish. Get rid of it one time, I would not vote one red cent to buy a bus for $25,000. Are you satisfied with the even concessionaires who ran the se"en concessions; to the other parts of the islands? Are you sat-Ified the public is given good service? If not, it is your duty to do so, or if vou can say the seven vill give good service or you believe they will give us good service, it is your duty to award it to them. We have had in applicants, so we cannot allow' the people to suffer even if you must drop money every month for the transport
bus when travelling. I remember following an exservice. What I say now is what happened with a cursion since G ov ernaient took over. They had a fiat tyre and had to waitt two and a half hours to get a tyre. If you. Mr. Chairman, or any other Minister were running those chartered buses to the excursion to any part of the ;island, you would see it had a ;spare iSyre. Do not let anybody fool you. There are so many people to look after that you must fa~e the facts. You know yo a have other essential services, so on the other hand what hopens. You, appoint a St. John talk about sabotage. There is a feeling that hBoard and I heard the Minister and the member for a black man in this country, imiless you are the


type of man -who is prepared to go on with Gover..ent and so on, will. sabotage anything. I have had chis experience and I believe the Premier should nave this experience.
12.40 a.m.
You have people who are strong supporters of the Government and I know' that they are people who were willing to offer their services to the Governent, but they are n ot "yes-men." Tf I'hapPened to be in the Government or close to the Gov-


ernment, and I had to look for people to put on te Transport Board, I would look for people who had some experience in dealing with transport blicness of some sort, even if it is hauling molasses or anything like that. If you are running a business and you succeed with it, it will be said that you are a smart fellow; but if you should fail, it will Le said that you are a fool.
They would rather bring down somebody from England who would know nothing about this business and take his advice.You have a man like Mr. Evelyn who had been running Lancaster and who >new when the engine was not working well; but I ask; who is responsible for appointing these people to the Board? Mr. Roy Gill or Mr. Evelyn could not iave made the recommendation to the Government to take over these buses and appoint these 25 Inspectors. Do you think that either of them would
-ecomnend that you appoint these Inspectors and pay them more money than you are paying the drivers? That is wrong. Mr. Chairman, if they had asked you anything, would you have said, "I would pay these Inspectors more than I would pay a driver?" In other places you have an Inspector who comes along and you never know where he is; you have a conductor, you just have a driver, but here you have a man who is working all the time and another man just sits under a; tree and waits until the buses come along. What then do you expect?
When the hon. junior member for St. John says that the people of this Country have been sabotaged, does he mean the bus concessionaires? I should like to say that is felt that if you have a Socialist Government advertise for loans from whom do they have to get them? People will lend you money when you advertise for it, and therefore it is reckless dishonesty to talk about sabotage. What the hon. senior memr St. John has said is quite true; you want to make some small-time people believe that you are a god on wheels going around. I will not be contributing to anything of that sort.
You may be a classical man, you may be learn ing the humanities, but you are not a business man. When I first met Mr. Manley, I said:"I know you have been professing to be a Soleialist, but 1 flave the greatest respect for you, because immediately as you got into power, you decided that even the most rabid Socialist, if lie must meet any success, he must have an economic adviser." When anybody says that you are ignorant as to business conditions, Co not take umbrage at that, because there is no point in taking umbrage if you do not know anytiming about these matters. I tell you quite candidly that what you really want is an adviser in these matters.
I was surprised to hear the hon. junior meinbel f[or St. Philip, make the speech which he made. He c as told you what the position really is; there is great dissatisfaction, and therefore let us face the facts. You are asking a man to come here from Trinidad to tell you about the Transport system;


well, I am going to say something which, if you were in business for 20 odd years, you would appreciate. I suppose that when this is, all recorded, somebody u-ill curse me. The Hon. Minister has said that this gentleman came in and discussed the question of buses and what not. I am just asdng them to be careful.
I asked that question just to be sure. You say vou are going to try out this 44-seater diesel bus. The Ion. Minister has rightly told us what has happened in Trinidad and Jamaica as regards that type o-I bus. He said that they have tried them out and


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JANUARY 3, 1957 OFFICIAL GAZETTE 221


they have railed. If I were you I would not make that blunder. You should use that money for other services. I will put it to the Mfinister: do not vote
-this money, come back and say to this House that you have erred. That is human. Do not fool yourself I need not speak in this strain because I represent the City of Bridgetowil where it does not matter whether bus fares go up or not but I am speaking from the depths of my heart despite what an, Minister or Government might feel. This Goaveriiment is headed by the Hon. Premier who is frightfally ignorant of the real business situation when it comes to running the buses. Let me suggest this to .you. Before you bring anybody to tell you how t1, run your Transport system, you must give them a brief before they are going to tell you how it should be run and the next thing that will happen is that you will find yourself buying buses which that person want to sell to you. Bear in mind that a man does not come out to advise you on these matters unless he is interested in this sort of thing. He has all sorts of offers before he comes here. I am tellhg you that the next thing you will know is that
you will be like Trinidad or Jamaica as regards this 'bus situation. Even if you nationalise it, you are going to find yourself in the same position. Do -you know the reason why? To make a success out of running buses, the concessionaires have to put in a tremendous lot of work aud have to be up early i4n the morning and all through the day looking after the running of their concession. You must have known by now that as soon as somebody is em-.' ployed by Government he says that it does not mal er.
Let me say this: When I caused the Vestry' f St. Michael to investigate into the accounts of the National Bus Company, that Company had the best bus service running in the Island. I have been iu
those buses then and recently and I can say that they are in a terrible condition now. Let me say chat they are nasty and stink now. I am telling you uhat no attention is paid to them. What do you find? We are told that the Government is not re.sponsible, or that the Minister is not responsible, but that they appoint a, Board to run the transport. They choose the people to run it. I am not suggesting for a minute that they should select to any of those Boards people from one particular walk of life. I am saying that you should not pick people to place'on Boards just because they make you a little god on the earth. You must do things which will benefit all the people of the Island.
Mr. Chairman, I promised myself that I will
not generate any heat on this matter. I am going; to ask this questioR:-have you done anything to merit .your nationalisation of the Transport system'. Now, y'ou cannot say when will you nationalise it. nor can you say that that is your intention. If you share our views or we share your view's, there are other essentials which should come first. I will say this to you now. Get this: Transport out of youtr hands as quickly as possible. As long as you are satisfied with the persons who have applied for the


concessions. you should grant them their request. Am I to say that I understand rightly, Mr. Chairman, that while you have given back one concession to a former concessionaire (Mr. Birch) that one of the applicants for a concession has been written a letter offering him the Yonkers Bus Service?
Ion. M. E. COX: You will always hear that.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: The Hon. Minister says that I will always hear that. I huderstood from a reliable source that you offered the Yonkers Bus service to Mr. Alleyne but he said that you will have to pay the cash money which the man charged the Government. He has received a letter telling him


that he will have the Yonkers. Mr. Chariman, I am telling the Hon. Minister of Communications what I have heard. I understand that the price is $35,000 as has been fixed by the valuers. I understood you told him to pay $35,000, but that there seems to be some difference of opinion on the matter. Why should you bring somebody from England to tell you what the buses cost when you took them over? That is nonsense. Mr. Chairman, I am addressing these remarks to the Head of the Government. If the valuers have valued them at $35,000 and there is a difference of opinion on that, the thing to do in my opinion is to get back in your valuers and let them know that the $35,000 is what he agrees to accept as the valuation at that time but
urig the ten months they have depreciated by
t5,000 or a figure like that, and that seems to be a reasonable sum to pay for them. now'. Why not get hem off your hand now? Not only would you get them off your hand when you accept that amount but you will be getting the service run.
You talk about these reconditioned buses. Let me put this to you: do you know that I have heard from tourists that while the buses which you will bring from outside are very comfortable that the buses which you have now' suit local conditions better than those because they are airy? Do you know that the type of buses which you have is first class for the colonies? Do not let anybody fool you. They can be reconditioned to look as new. It is the engine that goes. Put in a new' engine and put the new yres, paint up the body and you have a new unit.
1.00: a.m.
What do you think they are doing,? They have a cassisis and as long as they get it painted, up and put on tyres and put in a new engine they have a new bus working. They are getting down new engines and putting them on the old chassis and that is what tias been happening. I make this statement. I know there has been a man, who incidentally is a Barbadian, and who is connected with the parish the Hon. Premier represents, and*he can get second hand buses like Julian put on the people down here. Let me speak no ill of the dead. One time you had a Director of Public Works, he was a Civil Servant'the hon. member can sneer. Happily for me I do not depend on such people to put me here. He was a Civil Servant and you reached a stage at one time that no kind of toilet bowl could not be put in anybody's house-unless it was a Tyford. This is not speaking ill of anybody; this is merely saying when von come to business you see this. I smile at this type of diesel, and you have other types with the engine in front. What I am worried about is this. have you taken into consideration that the length would be difficult to get around certainty corners.? t-Tave you taken that into consideration ? Have you saken into consideration the question of having it swag around ? I say it would be a sensible approach a:nd I would back it one hundred per cent if you withdrew this and ask for a certain amount of money to n)ay off these debts and be satisfied that you have


good bonds and let the people run them, and everyI-hing would be all right. OT course I would not be ,surprised to hear somebody say I have friends who applied for them. Mr. Chairman, I think I have given my views to the Government. I think I have been perfectly mild indeed; I haye outlined the question of the transport system and I would like to say this: you know a tremendous lot. more can be said because as the Leader of the oppositionn told you, you have 106 buses and have only licensed 34. Who tIse in Barbados on this third day of Jjuly could be running" a set of buses not licensed and possibly not


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222 OFFICIAL GAZETTE J~uiu~~ 3, 1957


insured to the danger of the public? You have alrcady said this is a Board and you know they have not been licensed, the reason being they cannot present insurance papers to the'Treasury. Today is the 4th of the month and they are running, and do you realise if anything happens tomorrow you would 1Ie backing the Board; and what I an telling you is that Government has to back the Board in case of damages. Look at it squarely in the face; you are : responsible for the damages. Mind, you, I see your feeling is that this is something" where revenue can be made for the Government and you have a right to ,atisfy yourself. You cannot say you are doing like Jaimaica or Trinidad or of course London and New York where they subsidise quite heavily and give out concessions on account of the density of the population to move off in certain cities at certain peak hours. If you take a route like Black Rook where you have five buses running, the Hon. Minister of Social 3er vices will see all five going in at one time and you will have to wait until they go to town and come back up. What the hon. junior member for St. Philip told you was correct.The people are not with you with it; get it out of your hands. You are absolutely wrong and I suggest to you to get them out your hands. I do not think I can do any more under the circumstances. We have asked for a lot of information and you have iven us very little. There is just one more point which I want to make. I have heard that buses, had gone to garages and they were over-charged. I made discreet investigations. Now you know I am one of those people who as Chairman am in charge of a fleet of trucks belonging to the Sanitary Comimis:loners. Do not fool yourself that I do not send them around. I give everybody some and I was shocked to find a bill for general repairs and overhaul for around $900. I made investigations. We have had very strong men on the Board who made very strong investigations into the question- of parts and what they paid and then I made investigation into what was paid by the Government. Personally, I am, in a . position to say here and now that if they over-charge you, they have doubly overcharged us. I was shocked to see the price of the rebored jobs. The jobs tere in the vicinity of $700. That is the price which they charge today and I suggest strongly that this talk aaMut sabotage is not fair to the people who if they wanted to sabo.tage it would be the easiest filing for any firm of leading solicitors in Bridfetown to say if the Government wants loans do not lend them a cent. But they have so munch confidence in_ you that they put up all the money, so how eani von in the same breath say that there is sabotage, .Sir, I finally say- I cannot vote for this. Take the ;ooney you are going to build sheds and stand the difference between the depreciation an d what the prices would be and let them, give back time buses-I am not. talking about giving' back-there are (ertajin people who do not want them back. but,. there are others wvho have applied for these buses and these applications still hold; or you might be. able to do what the Hospital or the Government decided to do with the embulances.


Mr. CHAIRMAN: The question is
Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman, before yoi, put Uhe question, I should just like to say that there has been no doubt quite a lot of abuse and slander and nastiness which has come forth from, supposedly lion. members, more particularly, the lion. senior .member for St. John. There is ,io doubt
Mr. ALLDER: The hon. member should know by now that he cannot say that any hon. member, bas resorted to the use of slander, nastiness and


that sort of thing. I would please ask him to with1raw those remarks.
Hon. Ml. E. COX: I withdraw them. From thcspeech which the hon. member has made, everyone who has listened to him, will agree that he came Vere for the expressed purpose of attacking me. I promise never to sink to that level.
The hon. junior member for Christ Churchl
contradicted at length this question of losses, and, he went so far as to say that I was leading the Committee in connection with the Report of thelosses. From the Auditor's Report, it w'ill be seen Ithat at the end of the 31st December, 1955, therewas a loss of $58,000. The figures as follows:


Fares Collected School Tickets Charters


Less Expenses Salaries and Wages $
Gasoline and Oil
Repairs and Replacements
Inurrances
Tickets
Printing and Stationery Licenses Lights and Telephone Miscellaneous


$261,358.68
6,337.31 1,234.50


134,800.84 10,8,390.15

62,813.61
11,655.82
3,727.12 2,445.35
527.60 496.05
89.81


Loss Carried to Schedule
of Balance


$268,930.4Y


$327,740.75 $ 58,810.26


Since then we have had a statement from the Auditor from the 1st. January to 31st. March, 1956The fgures are as follows: Fares collected, $198,002.20, School Tickets $7,939.85; Charters, $3,14:1.04, total $209,083.09. Expenses amounted to $249,849.55 leaving a deficit of $40,766.46. It is estimated that up to the 10th June the amount in sundry credits would be $135,000 and with stocl together with bank balances amonting to $40,000, there would be a deficit of $95,000. That, Mr. Chairimam, is the position as it stands up to tme 1t June this year. If the hon. juuor member forChrist Church wants to see that with his 'own eyes,, lie will have the opportunity to come around here aid look at tle statement. If he doubts the propriety or otherwise of the Auditors, that is a niatter for him. i can only put forward what has beem reported by the Auditor.
The question was asked. Mr. Chairman, where. those buses will be housed. We have not yet decided on the correct site but we are' hoping to site them somewhere ou Government lands. The provision, is: rmde for a Shed and the Director, of Public Works hams submitted an estimate as follows.


Rootfimg Fencing Contingencies

Hoist
6 Workbenches
1 Compressor Water Supply
9 Ramps Surfacing Yard and

Total


$35.000
�. 6,000 �. 4,000

�. 7,00,0 .800

�.500
4,700 Approao el


$45,000


$75,50q


We are hoping to site them either at Combermere or behind the old shed which was once occupied by Mr. John Beckles. [A VOICE: That can-


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JANUARY 3, 1957 OFFICIAL GAZETTE 223


mot hold them.] We are not providing for 100 buses; we are providing for a maximunu of 66 buses.
I need not refer to the statement made by the hon. senior member for St. John, because the debates have already shown that the hon. member supported the Resolution and indeed all the other hon. members present at the time supported the Resolution. None had the courage to get up and say that we should increase bus fares. They all supported the Resolution and it was unanimously passed. [A VOICE: That is not true.]
Mr. HAYNES: I would like to be emphatic
-on this matter. I am entirely in favour of the coneessionaires being given another chance. The Hon. Premier made an aside saying that it was too late to negotiate. I object that it is too late.
I made reference to the fact that you are now
-doing something which Jamaica has rid itself of as well as Trinidad.
Hon. M. E. COX: Madam Chairman, every one
-would agree that the bus service which w'e have in Barbados today is inadequate. The travelling public is looking forward to a better service whether it is iy the Government or by the concessionaires who
-decided to continue. All through the trend o." speeches made by hon. members, it was brought out that the money which we came for at first was insufficient, andd we would have to come back for additional money to carry on the Transport system. That is in the debates. As a, natter of fact, the hon. junior member for St. Lucy went as far as to suggest that we should tuse money from the Price Stabilisation Fund which was at the time $6 million. He said that a considerable sum of that money should be earmarked as a loan to the Transport Board to finance the operation of those buses, because he opined that it would cost something like $300,000 odd to have the service run properly.
Madam Chairman, I realise that it is very late or early in the morning of another day and I am not prepared unless it is necessary to go all over the ,round I have covered, to reply to the speeches made by hon. members. There is one thing which 1 would like to state quite frankly. The hon. senior member for the City raised the point about our offering back the Yonkers man his buses.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: I have never said such a thing. What I said was that the Yonkers buses had been offered to Mr. Alleyne of Bank Hall and not to Mr. Jones an.d that they were offered for the price for which they were valued. I was suggesting that he should pay a sum between what is the" depreciation for the time the Government had them "n hand an~d that it will be inflnitelv .better for tho Government to stand that expense and that the Goverrnunt should act similarly with the other concessions which they have. I was suggesting that Government should call the whole thing a day, give ,up the buses and they would be better off. I never suggested that M~r. J3ones should be offered back his buses.
1.30 a.m.
Hon. M. E. COX: I do not know where the hon-


curable member got that information from, but I am sure that if that were so it would have to have passed Through the Ministry first for a decision to be made by :Government. That decision has not been made.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: Ts the honourable member saying this man has not been offered the Yonkers Bus Company? That is the information which I have had.- He has been told that is the position and what he has to pay for it and that it should be paid in cash and the argument is that he would not pay that for it. What I am saying is if there is any disagreement on


the price to be paid to Government, make right the deficit and depreciation for the time they had thtni and call it a d@y. I will support that 1001%.
IlIon. M. E. COX: I said in introducing mnt Resolution that Government have not-sold out these buses because we did not know at what price we would have to sell these buses. I went further and said that there was no possibility of getting them to take these buses; they would not be so stupid to, take them without knowing what they would have to pay for them. But as I said the Government could not 1 itve asked hint to pay 'X' dollars until the matter bad been decided by Court or by arbitration as the case may be.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: On a point of further explanation. Not for "X" dollars but for the price mhich the Government put to him. And I go further and say instead of spending money in putting up these sheds, you should pay the difference in depreci. ation. You caiunot expect people to pay for them what they charged Government ten months ago.
Hon. 1V1I. E. COX: The honourmble member has
-,aid that the Board did not ask for any buses or for any sheds for the buses. I would like to assure this louse that the present Board was appointed on the 1st April and from the time this Board was, appointed they made recommendations to the Mfinistry to have 15 new buses as soon as possible; and to say they I'ave not asked for buses is not correct because before the Board was appointed, as I pointed out in introducing the Resolution, about two or three months after we took over the buses the, Director of Highways rd Transport who was then Chairman, made representation to us that we needed 51 new units. Now ,here is one thing I would like to clear up at this stagc although it has not crept into the debate to-night, but ,some time ago, Mr. Chairman, it was raised in this House by the juniori:member for St. Lucy about my aIpproaching the owner of the Yonkers Buses asking him to take back the buses now. [A VOICE: Your friend told me so in your presence.] The position is as: I pointed out long ago that it would be ,bsolutely no question of my approaching Jones or anybody about taking back their buses because as I said Government had never decided on that: and indeed I would be the last person in the world to put myself in that position where if it were decided not to sell buses to people like those, then the individual could get up on a platforni and pass it on to the senior member for the City and to the public.
Mrr. E. D. MOTTLEY: I was present when his bosom friend, Mr. H. A. Tudor, told him so, and Mit. Tudor said he telephoned him at 4 o 'cloek in the afternoon and told him so; so why raise the question and bring me into it. All I said was, that I was present when your bosom friend told you about it.
Hon. M. E. COX: I would say briefly what liappemied. A few Saturdays ago I went to the PUblic Market and I met Mr. Tudor who told me: about this telephone call. I took him to Mr. Jones' house and after discussing the matter, Mr. Jones assured mne. that he was satisfied that it was a trick, and he


told me he would immediately telephone his counsel Mr. E. K. TVr, eott whom he had previously infc.ritncr about the matter. I hv. every reason to believe Mr. Jones did it.
The question; that the Resoliutio,. cio now pass
*vas put and resolved in the affirmative the HoUse dividing as follows:
Ayes: Hon. G. H. ADAs, Hon. Dr. H. G. H. Cu.mINs, Hon. M. E. Cox, Hon. C. E. TALMA,


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224 OFFICIAL GAZETTE JANUARY 3, 1957


Ion. R. G. IMAPP., Mr. HOLDFR, Mr. BRYAN, Mrs. BouRNEJ Mr. VAUGHAN, Mr. J. C. MOTTLEY-10.
Noes: Mr. GODDARD, Mr. BARROW, Mr. TUDOR, Mr. ALLDER, Mr. HAYNES, Mr. E, D. MOTTLEY. Mfr. CRAWFORr,-7.
On the motion of Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS, seconded by Hon. M. E. COX, the CHAIR-MAN reported thd passing of two Resolutions in Committee f] Supply.
Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair and reported accordingly.
On the motion of Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS, seconded by Hon. M. E. COX in each case, the Resolutions passed in Conimtted were re ad a first and second time and agreed to.

PRIVATE BUSINESS

Mr. TUD(OR.: lMr. Speaker, before the Order
-Paper is fixed, I am asking the leave of the House to move the passing;, of the Address of which I gave notice earlier in the day. The Address reads as follows:The Hous e of Assembly
To
His Excellency The Goverinr

The House of Assembly is of the opinion thai ,ome record should be made of the signing of the Order-in-Council setting -ip the British Caribbean Federation.
2. The House therefore respectfully requests Your Excellency to consult the Governments of the participating territories with a view to, securing their approval of an entreaty of Her Majesty the Queen, tl'ajt Her Majesty be graciously pleased to permit e departure from custom by allowing a photographic


record to be made of the signing of the Order-inCouncil.
3. The House makes this request feeling certain that the citizens of the future Dominion should be able to follow with pride the unfolding chapter of their history and affectionately associate Her Majesty with it,
4. The House further suggests that, if the Governments agree, the Comm'ssioner for the preparation of the Federal Orgainisation be asked to take the necessary steps to have the request laid with his humble duty, before Her Majesty at an early opportunity.
Hon. N. E. COX: I object to leave being granted the honourable member to proceed with this Address.
The question that leave be granted the honourable member to proceed with the Address, was put Ind resolved in the negative.
A division, was, taken as follow's:
Ayes: Meisss. J. C. MOTTLEY, BARRow, TUDOR, CRAWFORD, ATLLDER, HAYNES, GODDARIr and E. D. I\i0OTTLEY.-8.
Noes: Mr. STITH, Hon. G. H. ADAMS, Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINs, Hon. H. E. Cox, Hon. C. E. TALMA, Hon. R. G. 'APP, Messrs. HOLDER, BRYAN, Mrs. BOURNE and Mr. VAUGHAN.-10.

ADJOURNMENT

The Order Paper having been fixed,
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CIJTM INS: I beg to move that this House do now adjourn until this day week, Tuesday, 10th July, 1956, at 3 o'clock p.m.
Hon. M. E. COX: I beg to second that.
The question that this House do now adjourn until this day week, Tuesday, 10th July, 1956, at 3 o'clock p.m., was put and resolved in the affirntive without division, and Mr. SPKAKER adjourned the House accordingly.
1.50 a.m.


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224


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