Title Page
 Advertisement to the new series...
 Chronological table
 Table of Contents
 List of the House of Commons
 List of the King's Ministers
 April, 1820
 May, 1820
 June, 1820
 Index to debates in the House of...
 Index to the debates in the House...
 Index of names - House of...
 Index of names - House of...

Group Title: Parliamentary debates (1820-1829)
Title: The parliamentary debates
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00073533/00001
 Material Information
Title: The parliamentary debates
Uniform Title: Parliamentary debates (1820-1829)
Physical Description: 20 v. : ; 25 cm.
Language: English
Creator: Great Britain -- Parliament
Hansard, T. C ( Thomas Curson ), 1776-1833
Publisher: Published under the superintendence of T.C. Hansard
Place of Publication: London
Publication Date: 1820-1829
Subject: Politics and government -- Periodicals -- Great Britain -- 1820-1830   ( lcsh )
Dates or Sequential Designation: New ser., v. 1 (1820)-v. 20 (1829).
Numbering Peculiarities: Covers Mar. 1820-Feb./Mar. 1829.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00073533
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: oclc - 07655703
lccn - sn 85062629
 Related Items
Preceded by: Parliamentary debates for the year 1803 to the present time
Succeeded by: Hansard's parliamentary debates

Table of Contents
    Title Page
        Page iii
        Page iv
    Advertisement to the new series of the parliamentary debates
        Page v
        Page vi
        Page vii
        Page viii
        Page ix
    Chronological table
        Page x
        Page xi
    Table of Contents
        Page xii
        Page xiii
        Page xiv
        Page xv
        Page xvi
        Page xvii
        Page xviii
    List of the House of Commons
        Page xix
        Page xx
        Page xxi
        Page xxii
        Page xxiii
    List of the King's Ministers
        Page xxiv
    April, 1820
        Page 1-2
        House of Lords - Friday, April 21
            Page 1-2
        House of Commons - Friday, April 21
            Page 1-2
            Page 3-4
            Page 5-6
            Page 7-8
        House of Lords - Saturday, April 22
            Page 9-10
        House of Commons - Saturday, April 22
            Page 9-10
        House of Lords - Thursday, April 27
            Page 11-12
            Page 13-14
            Page 15-16
            Page 17-18
            Page 19-20
            Page 21-22
            Page 23-24
        House of Commons - Thursday, April 27
            Page 25-26
            Page 27-28
            Page 29-30
            Page 31-32
            Page 33-34
            Page 35-36
        House of Commons - Friday, April 28
            Page 37-38
            Page 39-40
            Page 41-42
            Page 43-44
            Page 45-46
    May, 1820
        Page 47-48
        House of Commons - Monday, May 1
            Page 47-48
        House of Commons - Tuesday, May 2
            Page 49-50
            Page 51-52
            Page 53-54
            Page 55-56
            Page 57-58
            Page 59-60
            Page 61-62
            Page 63-64
            Page 65-66
            Page 67-68
            Page 69-70
        House of Commons - Wednesday, May 3
            Page 71-72
            Page 73-74
            Page 75-76
            Page 77-78
            Page 79-80
            Page 81-82
            Page 83-84
        House of Lords - Thursday, May 4
            Page 85-86
            Page 87-88
            Page 89-90
        House of Commons - Thursday, May 4
            Page 91-92
            Page 93-94
            Page 95-96
            Page 97-98
            Page 99-100
            Page 101-102
        House of Lords - Friday, May 5
            Page 103-104
            Page 105-106
            Page 107-108
            Page 109-110
            Page 111-112
            Page 113-114
            Page 115-116
            Page 117-118
            Page 119-120
            Page 121-122
            Page 123-124
            Page 125-126
            Page 127-128
            Page 129-130
            Page 131-132
            Page 133-134
            Page 135-136
            Page 137-138
            Page 139-140
            Page 141-142
            Page 143-144
            Page 145-146
            Page 147-148
            Page 149-150
            Page 151-152
            Page 153-154
            Page 155-156
            Page 157-158
            Page 159-160
            Page 161-162
            Page 163-164
        House of Commons - Monday, May 8
            Page 165-166
            Page 167-168
            Page 169-170
            Page 171-172
            Page 173-174
            Page 175-176
            Page 177-178
            Page 179-180
            Page 181-182
            Page 183-184
            Page 185-186
            Page 187-188
            Page 189-190
            Page 191-192
            Page 193-194
            Page 195-196
            Page 197-198
            Page 199-200
            Page 201-202
            Page 203-204
            Page 205-206
            Page 207-208
            Page 209-210
            Page 211-212
            Page 213-214
            Page 215-216
            Page 217-218
            Page 219-220
            Page 221-222
            Page 223-224
            Page 225-226
        House of Commons - Tuesday, May 9
            Page 227-228
            Page 229-230
            Page 231-232
            Page 233-234
            Page 235-236
            Page 237-238
            Page 239-240
            Page 241-242
            Page 243-244
            Page 245-246
            Page 247-248
            Page 249-250
            Page 251-252
            Page 253-254
            Page 255-256
            Page 257-258
            Page 259-260
            Page 261-262
            Page 263-264
            Page 265-266
            Page 267-268
            Page 269-270
            Page 271-272
            Page 273-274
            Page 275-276
            Page 277-278
            Page 279-280
            Page 281-282
            Page 283-284
            Page 285-286
            Page 287-288
            Page 289-290
            Page 291-292
        House of Commons - Thursday, May 11
            Page 293-294
            Page 295-296
            Page 297-298
            Page 299-300
            Page 301-302
            Page 303-304
        House of Lords - Friday, May 12
            Page 305-306
            Page 307-308
            Page 309-310
            Page 311-312
            Page 313-314
            Page 315-316
            Page 317-318
            Page 319-320
            Page 321-322
            Page 323-324
            Page 325-326
            Page 327-328
        House of Commons - Friday, May 12
            Page 329-330
            Page 331-332
            Page 333-334
            Page 335-336
            Page 337-338
            Page 339-340
            Page 341-342
            Page 343-344
        House of Commons - Monday, May 15
            Page 345-346
            Page 347-348
            Page 349-350
            Page 351-352
            Page 353-354
            Page 355-356
            Page 357-358
            Page 359-360
            Page 361-362
            Page 363-364
            Page 365-366
            Page 367-368
            Page 369-370
            Page 371-372
            Page 373-374
            Page 375-376
            Page 377-378
            Page 379-380
            Page 381-382
            Page 383-384
            Page 385-386
        House of Lords - Tuesday, May 16
            Page 387-388
            Page 389-390
            Page 391-392
            Page 393-394
            Page 395-396
            Page 397-398
            Page 399-400
            Page 401-402
            Page 403-404
            Page 405-406
            Page 407-408
            Page 409-410
            Page 411-412
            Page 413-414
            Page 415-416
            Page 417-418
            Page 419-420
            Page 421-422
        House of Commons - Tuesday, May 16
            Page 423-424
            Page 425-426
            Page 427-428
            Page 429-430
            Page 431-432
            Page 433-434
            Page 435-436
            Page 437-438
            Page 439-440
            Page 441-442
            Page 443-444
            Page 445-446
            Page 447-448
            Page 449-450
            Page 451-452
            Page 453-454
            Page 455-456
            Page 457-458
        House of Commons - Wednesday, May 17
            Page 459-460
            Page 461-462
            Page 463-464
            Page 465-466
            Page 467-468
            Page 469-470
            Page 471-472
            Page 473-474
        House of Commons - Thursday, May 18
            Page 475-476
        House of Commons - Friday, May 19
            Page 477-478
            Page 479-480
            Page 481-482
            Page 483-484
            Page 485-486
            Page 487-488
            Page 489-490
            Page 491-492
            Page 493-494
            Page 495-496
            Page 497-498
            Page 499-500
            Page 501-502
            Page 503-504
            Page 505-506
            Page 507-508
            Page 509-510
            Page 511-512
            Page 513-514
            Page 515-516
            Page 517-518
            Page 519-520
        House of Lords - Thursday, May 25
            Page 521-522
            Page 523-524
            Page 525-526
            Page 527-528
        House of Commons - Thursday, May 25
            Page 529-530
            Page 531-532
            Page 533-534
            Page 535-536
            Page 537-538
            Page 539-540
            Page 541-542
            Page 543-544
        House of Lords - Friday, May 26
            Page 545-546
            Page 547-548
            Page 549-550
            Page 551-552
            Page 553-554
            Page 555-556
            Page 557-558
            Page 559-560
            Page 561-562
            Page 563-564
            Page 565-566
            Page 567-568
            Page 569-570
            Page 571-572
            Page 573-574
            Page 575-576
            Page 577-578
            Page 579-580
            Page 581-582
            Page 583-584
            Page 585-586
            Page 587-588
            Page 589-590
            Page 591-592
            Page 593-594
            Page 595-596
            Page 597-598
        House of Commons - Friday, May 26
            Page 599-600
            Page 601-602
            Page 603-604
            Page 605-606
            Page 607-608
            Page 609-610
            Page 611-612
            Page 613-614
            Page 615-616
            Page 617-618
            Page 619-620
            Page 621-622
            Page 623-624
            Page 625-626
        House of Lords - Tuesday, May 30
            Page 627-628
            Page 629-630
        House of Commons - Tuesday, May 30
            Page 631-632
            Page 633-634
            Page 635-636
            Page 637-638
            Page 639-640
            Page 641-642
            Page 643-644
            Page 645-646
            Page 647-648
            Page 649-650
            Page 651-652
            Page 653-654
            Page 655-656
            Page 657-658
            Page 659-660
            Page 661-662
            Page 663-664
            Page 665-666
            Page 667-668
            Page 669-670
            Page 671-672
            Page 673-674
            Page 675-676
            Page 677-678
            Page 679-680
            Page 681-682
            Page 683-684
            Page 685-686
            Page 687-688
            Page 689-690
            Page 691-692
        House of Commons - Wednesday, May 31
            Page 693-694
            Page 695-696
            Page 697-698
            Page 699-700
            Page 701-702
            Page 703-704
            Page 705-706
            Page 707-708
            Page 709-710
            Page 711-712
            Page 713-714
            Page 715-716
            Page 717-718
            Page 719-720
            Page 721-722
            Page 723-724
            Page 725-726
            Page 727-728
            Page 729-730
            Page 731-732
            Page 733-734
            Page 735-736
            Page 737-738
            Page 739-740
    June, 1820
        Page 741-742
        House of Lords - Thursday, June 1
            Page 741-742
        House of Commons - Thursday, June 1
            Page 743-744
            Page 745-746
            Page 747-748
            Page 749-750
            Page 751-752
            Page 753-754
            Page 755-756
            Page 757-758
            Page 759-760
            Page 761-762
            Page 763-764
            Page 765-766
            Page 767-768
            Page 769-770
            Page 771-772
            Page 773-774
            Page 775-776
            Page 777-778
            Page 779-780
            Page 781-782
            Page 783-784
            Page 785-786
            Page 787-788
            Page 789-790
            Page 791-792
            Page 793-794
            Page 795-796
        House of Lords - Friday, June 2
            Page 797-798
        House of Commons - Friday, June 2
            Page 799-800
            Page 801-802
            Page 803-804
            Page 805-806
            Page 807-808
            Page 809-810
            Page 811-812
            Page 813-814
            Page 815-816
            Page 817-818
            Page 819-820
            Page 821-822
            Page 823-824
            Page 825-826
            Page 827-828
            Page 829-830
            Page 831-832
            Page 833-834
            Page 835-836
            Page 837-838
        House of Commons - Monday, June 5
            Page 839-840
            Page 841-842
            Page 843-844
            Page 845-846
            Page 847-848
            Page 849-850
            Page 851-852
            Page 853-854
            Page 855-856
            Page 857-858
            Page 859-860
            Page 861-862
            Page 863-864
            Page 865-866
            Page 867-868
        House of Commons - Tuesday, June 6
            Page 869-870
            Page 871-872
            Page 873-874
            Page 875-876
            Page 877-878
            Page 879-880
            Page 881-882
            Page 883-884
        House of Lords - Wednesday, June 7
            Page 885-886
            Page 887-888
            Page 889-890
            Page 891-892
            Page 893-894
            Page 895-896
            Page 897-898
            Page 899-900
        House of Commons - Wednesday, June 7
            Page 901-902
            Page 903-904
            Page 905-906
            Page 907-908
            Page 909-910
            Page 911-912
            Page 913-914
            Page 915-916
            Page 917-918
            Page 919-920
            Page 921-922
            Page 923-924
            Page 925-926
            Page 927-928
            Page 929-930
            Page 931-932
            Page 933-934
            Page 935-936
            Page 937-938
            Page 939-940
            Page 941-942
            Page 943-944
            Page 945-946
            Page 947-948
            Page 949-950
            Page 951-952
            Page 953-954
            Page 955-956
            Page 957-958
            Page 959-960
            Page 961-962
            Page 963-964
            Page 965-966
            Page 967-968
            Page 969-970
            Page 971-972
            Page 973-974
            Page 975-976
            Page 977-978
            Page 979-980
            Page 981-982
            Page 983-984
        House of Lords - Thursday, June 8
            Page 985-986
            Page 987-988
            Page 989-990
            Page 991-992
            Page 993-994
            Page 995-996
            Page 997-998
        House of Commons - Thursday, June 8
            Page 999-1000
            Page 1001-1002
            Page 1003-1004
            Page 1005-1006
        House of Lords - Friday, June 9
            Page 1007-1008
        House of Commons - Friday, June 9
            Page 1007-1008
            Page 1009-1010
            Page 1011-1012
            Page 1013-1014
            Page 1015-1016
            Page 1017-1018
            Page 1019-1020
            Page 1021-1022
            Page 1023-1024
            Page 1025-1026
            Page 1027-1028
            Page 1029-1030
            Page 1031-1032
        House of Lords - Monday, June 12
            Page 1033-1034
        House of Commons - Monday, June 12
            Page 1035-1036
            Page 1037-1038
            Page 1039-1040
            Page 1041-1042
            Page 1043-1044
        House of Commons - Tuesday, June 13
            Page 1045-1046
            Page 1047-1048
        House of Commons - Wednesday, June 14
            Page 1049-1050
            Page 1051-1052
            Page 1053-1054
            Page 1055-1056
            Page 1057-1058
            Page 1059-1060
            Page 1061-1062
            Page 1063-1064
            Page 1065-1066
            Page 1067-1068
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        House of Commons - Friday, June 22
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        House of Commons - Saturday, June 24
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    Index to debates in the House of Lords
        Page 1401-1402
    Index to the debates in the House of Commons
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    Index of names - House of Lords
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    Index of names - House of Commons
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Full Text









NTeb eie2

VO L. I.

TO ''








T HE present Volume is, in fact, the forty-second of THE PARLIAMENTARY
DEBATES; but as it commences with the Proceedings of the First Parliament
of his present majesty George the Fourth, the Proprietors have thought that
they could not better meet the wishes of their regular Subscribers, nor consult
the convenience of those gentlemen who now, at this epoch, may be desirous
of becoming Subscribers, than by commencing a NEW SERIES.
In presenting the First Volume of this New Series of The Parliamentary
Debates to the public, the Editor avails himself of the opportunity it affords
him, of returning his acknowledgments for the liberal support which he has
received. The declared object of the First Series of this Work, at its outset
in the year 1803 was, to give the Proceedings of both Houses at greater
length, and with much greater precision, than it was ever before attempted to
give them. To accomplish this object, neither labour nor expense has been
spared. Aid of every useful kind has been resorted to, and, in most instances,
with complete success. The Editor has felt that to his Work after times would
refer, for the Public Character and Conduct of the Members of both Houses
who took a share in the important measures therein recorded. He has, there-
fore, not considered himself at liberty to garble or abridge their Speeches, at
his own discretion, and according to his own views of the importance of the
matter before him. To his unremitted endeavours to procure from members
of both sides of the House, the fullest and most correct reports of what has
taken place on every important Debate, those Members will readily bear testi-
mony: And so strictly impartial has he been, that in no single page of the
Forty-One Volumes, of which the First Series consists, and all of which have
passed through his hands, can, he ventures to assert, an instance of unfair pre-
ference or prejudice be pointed out.


( vi )

In addition to the Debates of both Houses, the Work contains an invaluable
Collection of Parliamentary Papers, consisting of many hundred Reports, Esti-
mates, Returns, Treaties, Conventions, Lists of Divisions, &c. &c.; and a
regular Series, for the last Seventeen years, of Accounts relative to the Fi-
nances, and to the Trade, Navigation, &c. of the United Kingdom. These
Documents are exact copies of those laid before Parliament. They are to be
met with in no other publication, and will be found eminently useful and
convenient to the Reader; to whom, indeed, if his attention be at all turned
to subjects of Political Economy, they will be indispensably necessary.
Each Volume contains a copious Table of Contents, together with separate
Indexes, not only of the Debates in both Houses, but of the names of the
several Members who took a part therein. It is hardly necessary to add,
that this Second Series of a Work which has found its way into most of the
Public Libraries, not merely of this country, but of Europe, will be continued
with that activity and perseverance which a reception so favourable is calculated
to produce.

PERIOD TO THE YEAR 1803," when the First Series of the above Work
commenced, is completed in Thirty-Six Volumes. The Public are therefore
now in possession of the only uniform Parliamentary History of the Country
that was ever attempted. The plan of the Work will be seen in the following
Extract from the Preface to the First Volume:
Whoever has had frequent occasion to recur to the Proceedings in Par-
liament of former times, must have experienced those difficulties which it is the
object of the present Work to remove. Merely to find the several works wherein
is contained an account of the Parliamentary Proceedings, is, at this day, no
easy matter; some of them being very scarce, and others excessively vo-
luminous. Hardly any of them, those of the last twenty years excepted, are
to be purchased regularly at the Booksellers. The far greater part of
them are to be come at by accident only; and, of course, sometimes not to be
obtained at all. But, supposing them all to be at hand, the price of them is no
trifling object; and, in many cases, must present a difficulty not to be easily,
or, at least, willingly surmounted. Of these works, taken in their chrono-
logical order, the first is, The Parliamentary or Constitutional History," in
Twenty-four Volumes; the second, sir Simonds D'Ewes's Journal of Queen
Elizabeth's Parliaments;" the third, Proceedings and Debates of the House
of Commons in 1620 and 1621, collected by a member of that House, and
published from his Original Manuscript in the Library of Queen's College)
Oxford," in Two Volumes; the fourth, Chandler's and Timberland's De-
bates," in Twenty-two Volumes; the fifth, Debates of the House of Com-

( vii )

mons, from 1667 to 1694, collected by the Honourable Anchitell Grey, Esq.,
who was thirty years member for the town of Derby," in ten Volumes; the
sixth, Almon's Debates, from 1743 to 1780," in Twenty-four Volumes; and
the seventh, Debrett's Debates, from 1780 to 1802," in Sixty-three Vo-
lumes. But still, with all these, the information wanted is very imperfect,
without perpetually having recourse to the Journals of the two Houses, which
Journals occupy upwards of a hundred volumes in folio: so that the price of
a complete set of the works, in this way, cannot, upon an average of purchases,
be reckoned at less than One Hundred and Fifty Pounds.
These difficulties surmounted, another, and a still more formidable obstruc-
tion to the acquiring of information, is found, not merely in the number and
the bulk of the volumes, but also in the want of a good arrangement of the
Contents of most of them; and, further, in the immense load of useless matter,
quite unauthentic, and very little connected with the real Proceedings of Par-
liament, to be found in many of them: in the first mentioned work, we find a
narrative of battles, sieges, and of domestic occurrences : the real Proceedings
of Parliament form but a comparatively small proportion of it; whole pam-
phlets of the day, and very long ones, being, in many places, inserted just as
they were published and sold; and, when we come down even to the Debates
by Almon and Debrett (taking in Woodfall and others occasionally), we find,
that, in numerous instances, three-fourths of the volume consists of Papers laid
before Parliament, of mere momentary utility, repeated in subsequent and more
correct statements, and now a mere incumbrance to the reader, and a constantly
intervening obstacle to his researches; to which may be added, with respect to
all the Debates from Almon's inclusive, downwards, that there is a total want of
all that aid which is afforded by well-contrived Running Titles, Tables, and
Indexes, and which is so necessary in every voluminous work, particularly if it
relate to the transactions of a long series of years.
In a Work of this nature, the utmost impartiality is justly expected; and it
is with confidence presumed, that a careful perusal of the following pages will
convince the reader, that that impartiality has been strictly and invariably ad-
hered to. Nothing has been inserted without due authority; and, as the ob-
ject has been, not so much to dive into matters of Antiquity, as to preserve
what was really useful, many things have been omitted which would have swel-
led the bulk of the Work, without adding to its usefulness. Nothing, however,
has been left out, except what was judged to be spurious or not agreeable to the
design of such a Collection; nor any thing added, merely on account of its
being favourable to the reputation or the doctrines of any particular party. In
short, whatever appeared to have been actually said or done, in either House of
Parliament, that had any tendency to what ought to be the chief object of such a
Publication, has, as far as authentic materials could be procured, been recorded
with scrupulous fidelity."

*,* The Editor is preparing for the Press, to be comprised in Two
I. A GENERAL INDEX to the Parliamentary History of
England, from the earliest Period to the Year 1803: and
II, A GENERAL INDEX to the Parliamentary Debates from
the Year 1803, to the Accession of GEORGE THE FOURTH,
in 1820.
The two Volumes will form a complete Parliamentary Dictionary, or ready
Book of Reference to every subject of importance that has, at any time, come
before Parliament. The great utility of such a Work, not only to Members
of the two Houses, but to every Lawyer and Politician, must be self-evident.
As many gentlemen, who have not been regular subscribers to the two Works,
may nevertheless be desirous of possessing a general Index to the Political His-
tory of their Country, such gentlemen are requested to send in their names to the
publishers; as only a very limited number of Copies beyond the usual impression
will be printed.


As the Reader will have constant occasion to refer to the THE
PARLIAMENTARY HISTORY, and to the First Series of THE
PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES, the subjoined Tables, which ex-
hibit at one view the period which each Volume of those Works
embraces, will be found very useful.

VOL. 1.


Shewing the Years of our Lord, and of the King's Reign, in which the Thirty-
six Volumes of THE PARLIAMENTARY HISTORY or ENGLAND respectively
began and ended.

A. D. An. Reg.--
A. D. An. Reg.




6 William I.
1 Charles I.
18 Charles I.
12 Charles II.
4 James II.
1 Anne.
1 George I.
9 George I.
6 George II.
10 George II.
13 George II.
14 George II.
16 George II.
20 George II.
26 George II.
5 George III.
11 George III.
15 George III.
17 George III.
19 George III.
20 George III.
21 George III.
22 George III.
24 George III.
25 George III.
26 George III.
28 George III.
29 George III.
31 George III.
33 George III.
34 George III.
35 George III.
37 George III.
39 George III.
40 George III.
42 George III.

/--------- ^~--`-----~

A. D.

May 29.......
October 27...
April 12.......
October 10...
March 2.......
July 9.........
March 10.....
March 14.....
February 22.
June 14.......
February 24.
February 25.
January 13...
April 17......
April 19.......
March 5......
June 22.......
January 23...
December 4..
February 10..
March 25......
May 7.........
December 1...
February 1...
May 5.........
February 8...
May 4 .........
March 15.....
December 13.
March 10.....
May 22........
March 2.......
November 30.
March 21......
October 29...
August 12....


An. Reg.

22 James I.
18 Charles I.
12 Charles II.
4 James II.
13 William III.
13 Anne.
8 George I.
6 George II.
10 George II.
12 George II.
14 George II.
16 George II.
20 George II.
26 George II.
4 George III.
11 George III.
14 George III.
17 George III.
19 George III.
20 George III.
21 George III.
22 George III.
24 George III.
25 George I11.
26 George III.
28 George III.
29 George III.
31 George Ill.
33 George III.
34 George III.
35 George III.
37 George III.
39 George III.
40 George III.
41 George III.
43 George III.

June 18.......
October 29...
April 25.......
October 10...
March 8.......
August 1......
October 9.....
April 4.........
March 4 .......
November 15.
February 26...
March 10. ...
January 22...
May 7. ......
January 10...
February I...
November 29.
January 29....
December 7...
February 11..
March 26......
May 10. ......
December 3...
February 1....
May 15. ......
February 14..
May 8.........
March 22......
December 13.
March 14......
May 27.......
March 3.......
December 3...
March 21.....
October 29...



Shewing the Years of our Lord, and of the King's Reign, in which the Forty-one
Volumes of the First Series of THE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES respectively
began and ended.

Volume. ---
A. D.

I. November 22.1803.
II. April 5......... 1804.
III. January 15... 1805.
IV. March 13...... 1805.
V. May 15........ 1805.
VI. January 21... 1806.
VII. May 6......... 1806.
VIII. December 15. 1806.
IX. March 5....... 1807.
X. January 21... 1808.
XI. April 11...... 1808.
XII. January 19... 1809.
XIII. March 8...... 1809.
XIV. April 11...... 1809.
XV. January 23... 1810.
XVI. March 2...... 1810.
XVII. May 18........ 1810.
XVIII. November 1.. 1810.
XIX. February 22... 1811.
XX. May 13........ 1811.
XXI. January 7..... 1812.
XXII. March 17.....1812.
XXIII. May 5.........1812.
XXIV. November24. 1812.
XXV. March 11.....1813.
XXVI. May 11........ 1813.
XXVII. November 4.. 1813.
XXVIII. June ......... 1814.
XXIX. November 8.. 1814.
XXX. March 6...... 1815.
XXXI. May 2......... 1815.
XXXII. February 1... 1816.
XXXIII. March 7...... 1816.
XXXIV. April 26...... 1816.
XXXV. January 28... 1817.
XXXVI. April 28....... 1817.
XXXVII. January 27... 1818.
XXXVIII. April 30...... 1818.
XXXIX. January 14... 1819.
XL. May 3......... 1819.
XLI. November23. 1819.

s. Ends.

An. Re-- A. D. An. Reg.
An. Rei. A. D. An. Reg.

44 George III
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SMarch 29..... 1804. 44
July 31........ 1804. 44
March 12..... 1805. 45
May 14........ 1805. 45
July 12........ 1805. 45
May 6......... 1806. 46
July 23........ 1806. 46
March 4...... 1807. 47
August 14.... 1807. 47
April 8......... 1808. 48
July 4......... 1808. 48
March 7...... 1809. 49
March 13..... 1809. 49
June 21........ 1809. 49
March 1....... 1810., 50
May 17........ 1810. 50
June 21....... 1810. 50
February 28.. 1811. 51
May 10........ 1811. 51
July 24........ 1811. 51
March 16...... 1812. 52
May 4......... 1812. 52
July 30........ 1812. 52
March 9...... 1813. 53
May 10........1813. 53
July 22........ 1813. 53
June 6......... 1814. 54
July 30....... 1814. 54
March 3...... 1815. 55
May 1......... 1815. 55
July 12........ 1815. 55
March 6....... 1816. 56
April 25...... 1816. 56
July 2......... 1816. 56
April 25...... 1817. 57
July 12........ 1817. 57
April 30...... 1818. 58
June 10....... 1818. 58
April 30...... 1819. 59
July 30.. ..., 1819. 59
February 28... 1820. 60

George III.
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9, 91
91 9,


-- 7






1820. Page
Apr.21. Meeting of the New Parliament ..................................... 1
27. Address on the King's Speech at the Opening of the Session.., 13
Petition of the Rev. Mr. Jones .................................... 26
May 4. Price of Silver ..................................................... 85
Civil List ...................................................... 86
5. Insolvent Debtors......................................................... 104
12. Petition of the Rev. Mr. Jones-Athanasian Creed ............... 305
16. Commercial Distress-Petition from Birmingham .............. 388
Earl Stanhope's Motion on the Means of providing Employ-
ment for the Poor ... ..... ........................................ 395
25. Agricultural Distress ...... .......................................... 521
Civil List Bill............................................................... 523
26. Sunday Newspapers ............................. .. ..... ...... 545
Marquis of Lansdowne's Motion for a Select Committee on the
Means of extending and securing the Foreign Trade of the
Country ............................................................. 565
30. Civil List Bill................ ....... ................................. 628
June 1. Small Debts Recovery Bill ............................................ 742
2. Failure of Banks in the South of Ireland .......................... 798
6. The King's Message respecting the Arrival of the Queen ...... 870
7. Motion for a Secret Committee on the Papers relating to the
Conduct of the Queen ............................................... 886
8. Secret Committee on the Papers relating to the Conduct of the
Queen ballotted for .. ........................... ..... ... 985



1820. Page
June 9. Royal Marriage Act...... ............................................. 1007
12. Secret Committee on the Papers relating to the Conduct of the
Queen ..................................................................... 1034
13. Scotch Peers ............................................................... 1044
16. Insolvent Debtors Bill .................................................. 1096
Secret Committee on the Papers relating to the Conduct of the
Queen ........................................... ................... 1097
Royal Marriage Act .................................................... 1099
19. Secret Committee on the Papers relating to the Conduct of the
Queen..................................................................... 1136
21. Mutiny Bill.................................................................. 1198
22. Secret Committee on the Papers relating to the Conduct of the
Q ueen ............................................. ..................... 1206
23. Secret Committee on the Papers relating to the Conduct of the
Q ueen ..................................................... ..... ........ 13 15
26. Commitment for Libel-Petition of Mr. Butt........................ 1323
Petition from the Queen ............................................... 1323


Apr. 21. Choice ofa Speaker ...................................................... 2
27. Address on the King's Speech at the Opening of the Session... 27
28. The Marquis of Hastings's Answer to the Vote of Thanks ...... 38
Borough of Grampound ............................................. 39
Education of the Poor ................................................. 39
Catholic Question ......................................... ............ 39
Reform in Parliament .......................................... ..... 40
Scotch Representation ................................................. 40
Address on the King's Speech at the Opening of the Session ... 40
Droits of the Crown-And Privy Purse .................................. 43
Revenues of the Crown ............................................. 45
The King's Answer to the Address.................................. 47
Weights and Measures ............... .................................... 47
Courts of Justice in Scotland ...... ................................. 48
May 2. Steam Engines and Furnaces ....................................... 50
Stage Coach Drivers ..................... ........................... 53
Insolvent Debtors Bill ........................................ ...... 53
Cato Street Conspiracy-Conduct of George Edwards ......... 54
Civil L ist ............. .... ......................................... 63
3. Wool Tax ................................................................. 72
Civil List............................. ....................... 73
Civil List Revenues .................................................. 75
4. London Bridge ....................................................... 91
Wool Tax .................................................................. 92
Royal Burghs of Scotland ...................................... 94
Court of Exchequer in Scotland .................................. 95

May 4. Gibraltar .............................................................. 96
5. Machinery-Petition from Wiltshire ................................ 105
Mr. Brougham's Motion respecting the Droits of the Crown and
Admiralty .......................................................... 105
8. Wool Tax .................................................................. 165
Commercial Restrictions-Petition of the Merchants of London 165
Civil List .................................................................. 198
9. Sir James Mackintosh's Motion for a Select Committee on the
Criminal Laws ........................................................ 227
Grampound Disfranchisement Bill ........................... ........ 237
The Queen................................................................. 241
Motion respecting the Criminal Conduct and Proceedings of
George Edwards .............. ........ .......................... 242
11. New Post Office......................................................... 293
Wool Tax .................................................................. 29
Exchequer Bills.. .............. ...................................... 297
12. Agricultural Distress ................................................. 329
Reform in Parliament ................................................... 32
Civil List-Petition from Liverpool .............. .............. 333
Conduct of the Military at Oldham.................................. 334
Commercial Distress-Petition from Birmingham ................ 338
Civil List Bill ............................................................ 313
15. Western Union Canal Bill ............................................. 315
Conduct of the Military at Oldham................................... 347
Lord Archibald Hamilton's Motion respecting the Barons of
the Exchequer in Scotland ...................................... 317
16. Commercial Restrictions-Petition from the Glasgow Chamber
of Commerce ........................................................ 412
Colonel Davies's Motion for a Select Committee on the Military
Expenditure of the Country ...................................... 43
17. Navy Estimates... ....................................... 459
Transactions at Manchester ......................................... 460
Civil L ist Bill ..................... .. ...... ...................... 461
18. Civil List Bill ....................................................... 475
19. Commercial Restrictions-Petition from Manchester ........... 478
Criminal Laws ......................................................... 480
Grampound Disfranchisement Bill ................................. 480
Breach of Privilege-Petition of the Warden of the Fleet Prison 520
Publication of Proceedings in Courts of Justice ................ 521
25. Drogheda Election ...................................................... 530
Agricultural Distress .................................................. 533
Representation of the People of Scotland ........................ 536
Aldborough Election-Qualification of Mr. Antrobus ......... 539
Boston Election ...................................................... 544
26. Sunday Newspapers ..................................................... 599
Breach of Privilege-Warden of the Fleet Prison ................ 601
Boston Election....................................... .................. 601
Insolvent Debtors Bill .................................................. 605
Lord Milton's Motion for the Repeal of the Wool Tax ......... 612
British Museum......... ......... ......... ...................... 626

May 0O. African Company ......................................................... 63
Mr. Sumner's Motion for referring the Petitions on the Subject
of Agricultural Distresses to a Select Committee .............. 639
31. Prisoners for Contempt of Court...................................... 693
Exchequer Bills ......................................................... 694
Petition of George Dewhurst complaining of Ill-treatment in
Lancaster Gaol ...................................................... 702
Agricultural Distresses-A Select Committee appointed......... 705
June 1. Manufacturing Distress-Petition from Paisley ................ 744
Mr. Frederick Campbell's Motion for a Select Committee on the
State of the Court of Judicature in Wales....................... 745
Labourers Wages Bill ................ ............................. 768
Linen Bounties ............................................................ 771
Alien Bill .................................................................. 774
2. Timber Duties ........................................................ .... 800
Marriage Act Amendment Bill ...................................... 800
Protecting Duties-Ireland ............................................ 80
Army Estimates ................. ..................................... 804
Ordnance Estimates ..................................................... 805
Army Estimates ..................................... ........... 821
5. Reform of Parliament-Petition from Kingston upon Hull...... 844
Petition from Liverpool in favour of Timber Duties .............. 844
Petition from the Ship-builders and Ship-owners of London in
favour of Timber Duties ............................................ 845
Portsmouth Election.................................................... 862
Foreign Trade-Select Committee thereon appointed ............ 863
Grampound Disfranchisement Bill ................................... 863
Insolvent Debtors Bill .................................... ... .... 868
6. King's Message respecting the Arrival of the Queen ........... 870
Parliamentary Reform .............. ............................. 881
Army and Ordnance Estimates ..................................... 882
Wilful and Malicious Injuries Bill ... ............................ 884
Irish Paupers............................................................ 885
7. Boroughbridge Election ............................................. 902
Breach of Privilege-Warden of the Fleet Prison................. 904
Transactions at Manchester .......................................... 904
Irish Still Fines Bill ..................................................... 904
Communication from the Queen ...................................... 905
Motion for a Secret Committee on the Papers relating to the
Conduct of the Queen .............................................. 906
8. Landlords and Tenants Bill ............................................ 1000
Protecting Duties-Ireland.......................................... 1004
9. Bankrupt Laws ........................................................ 1008
Motion for a Secret Committee on the Papers relating to the
Conduct of the Queen ............................................. 1008
Navy Estimates...................... .................................... 1009
Loan-Ways and Means ............................................. 1022
Protecting Duties-Ireland ....................................... 1032
12. Cork Habour Bill ................................ ..... ....... 1035

June 12. Petition of W. A. Beckwith complaining of Damages by Riot... 1036
Callington Election ..................................................... 1037
Galway--Right of Election ......................... ...... .......... 1039
Secret Committee on the Papers relating to the Conduct of the
Q ueen ..................................................................... 1039
Insolvent Debtors Bill .................................................. 1041
13. Bank of England Accounts ............................ .............. 1046
14. Motion respecting Bills for the Regulation of Trade ............ 1050
Irish Paupers Bill ......................................................... 1051
Specifications of Patents ............................................... 1052
Irish Banks Failures ..................................................... 1053
Mr. Grattan-New Writ for Dublin ............................... 1054
Irish Ten per Cent Duties .......................................... 1066
Mutiny Bill .................................................. ...... 1072
16. East India Company's Volunteers Bill ............................. 1102
Secret Committee on the Papers relating to the Conduct of the
Q ueen ..................................................................... 1103
Irish Banks Failures ..................................................... 1105
Miscellaneous Services.................................................. 112
19. Military Insubordination ............................................... 1147
Communications on the Part of the Queen with his Majesty's
Government ............................................................ 1147
The Budget ............................................................... 1161
Miscellaneous Estimates ......... ............ .................... 1179
20. Petition of London Merchants against Alteration of Duties on
Tim ber ................................................................. 1180
Mr. Wilberforce's Notice of a Motion respecting the Queen ... 1185
Military Insubordination ............................................... 1187
King's Bench Proceedings Bill......................................... 1189
21. Mr. Wilberforce's Notice of a Motion respecting the Queen ... 1202
22. Mr. Wilberforce's Motion for Adjusting the Differences existing
in the Royal Family .................................................. 1213
23. Labourers Wages Bill .................................................. 1316
The Queen..................... ....................................... 1317
24. Parliamentary Reform ................................................. 1318
Education of the Poor .................................................. 1319
Court of Exchequer in Scotland ...................................... 1319
The Queen's Answer to the Resolutions of the House........... 1319
Milan Commission ........................................................ 1320
26. Criminal Laws ....................................... ............... 138
King's Mews ............................................................... 1338
Motion for a Secret Committee on the Papers relating to the
Conduct of the Queen ............... .............................. 139


Apr. 27. King's Speech on Opening the Session ....................... 11



June 6. King's Message respecting the Arrival of the Queen ,....... 870


An Account of the Total Produce of all Funds at the Disposal of the
Crown ............................................................................ 45
Copy of the Proposition made by Lord Hutchinson on the part of his
Majesty's Ministers to the Queen, June 4, 1820............................. 873
Copy of the Communication made from the Queen to the House of
Commons, June 7, 1820. ......................................................... 905
Copy of the Communications on the Part of the Queen with'his Majesty's
tiovernm ent ........................................................................... 1147
Copy of the Letter written by the Queen on seeing that her name was
omitted in the Liturgy; dated Rome, March 16, 1820..................... 1317


May 8. PETITION of the Merchants of London, respecting Commercial
Restrictions ...................................... 179
11. - of William Cobbett respecting the Coventry Election 295
12. - of the Rev. John Pike Jones ............. .............. 316
30. - of the Corporation of London, for a Reform of Parlia-
ment ........................................................ 632
June 2. - of William Cobbett, respecting the Current Value of
M oney ..................................................... 859
8. - from Westminster, against the Aliens Regulation Bill 999
12. - from Coventry, complaining of Excise Prosecutions
for selling Roasted Wheat ............................ 1042
26. - from the Queen to the House of Lords .................. 1329


May 16. PROTEST against the Rejection of Earl Stanhope's Motion re-
specting the Means of providing Employment for
the Poor ................................................. 42


May S. LIST of the Minority in the House of Commons, on Mr. Hume's
Motion respecting the Civil List Revenues .............. 83
5. of the Minority in the House of Commons, on Mr.
Brougham's Motion respecting the Droits of the Crown
and Admiralty......... ........................... 163
VOL. I. c

May 8. LIST of the Minority in the House of Commons, on the Motion
for taking into consideration the Report of the Com-
mittee on the Civil List ................................ 226
15. of the Minority in the House of Commons, on Lord Archi-
bald Hamilton's Motion respecting the Barons of the
Exchequer in Scotland ...................................... 386
16. of the Minority on Colonel Davies's Motion respecting the
Military Expenditure of the Country .................... 459
June 1. of the Minority in the House of Commons, on the Alien
Bill .......................................................... 798
14. of the Minority in the House of Commons, on Sir H.
Parnell's Motion, respecting the Irish Ten per Cent
Union Duties .............................................. 1072
14. of the Minority in the House of Commons, on Lord
Nugent's Motion for the Reduction of the Standing
A rmy ....................................... ................ 1096
16. of the Minority in the House of Commons, on the Expense
of the Barrack Department ............................... 1124
22. of the Minority in the House of Commons, on Mr. Wil-
berforce's Motion for adjusting the Differences exist-
ing in the Royal Family...................................... 144
26. of the Minority in the House of Commons, on the Motion
for a Select Committee on the Papers relating to the
Conduct of the Queen......................................... .... 1398




As it stood in June 1820.


Abercromby, hon. J. Calne
Acland, sir T. D. bart. Devon-
A'Court, C. Ashe, Heytesbury
A'Court, E. H. Heytesbury
Alexander, James, Old Sarum
Allan, John H. Pembroke
Althorp, viscount, Northampton-
Ancram, earl, Huntingdon
Anson, sir George, Lichfield
Anson, hon. George, Yarmouth
Antrobus, G. C. Aldborough
Apsley, lord, Cirencester
Arbuthnot, rt. hon. C. St. Ger-
Archdall, Mervyn, Fermanagh-
Ashnrst, William Henry, Oxford-
Astell, William, Bridgewater
Astley, J. D. Wiltshire
Atwood, Mathias, Callington
Aubrey, sir John, bart. Horsham
Bagwell, rt. hon. Wm. Tipperary
Baillie, John, Heydon
Balfour, John, Orkney
Banks, George, Corff Castle
Bankes, Henry, Corff Castle
Barham, Jos. Foster, Stock-
Barham, John Foster, Stock-
Baring, Alex. Taunton
Baring, sir Thomas, bart. Wy-
Barnard, viscount, Tregony
Barne, Michael, Dunwich
Barrett, S. B. M. Richmond
Barry, rt. hon. John M. Cavan-
Barton, Nathaniel, Westbury
Bastard, Edm. Pollexfen, Devon-
Bastard, John, Dartmouth
Bathurst, rt. hon. Charles, Har-
Bathurst, hon. Seym. T. St. Ger-
Beaumont, Thos. Wentw. North-
Becher, William W. Mallow
Beckett, right hon. J. Cocker-
Bective, earl of, Meathshire
Belfast, earl of, Belfast
Belgrave, viscount, Chester
Bennet, hon. Hen. Grey, Shrews-

Benett, John, Wiltshire Byng, George, Middlesex
Bentinck, lordFred. Cav. Weobly Calcraft, John, Warehan
Bentinck, lord W. H. Cav. Not- Calcraft, John H. Wareham
tinghamshire Calthorpe, hon. F. G. Hindon
Benyon, Benjamin, Stafford Calvert, Charles, Southwark
Beresford, sir J. P. hart. Cole- Calvert, John, Huntingdon
raine Calvert, Nicolson, Hertford
Beresford, lord George, Water- Campbell, lord John D. H.
fordshire Argyleshire
Bernal, Ralph, Rochester Campbell, hon. John F. Car-
Bernard, viscount, Bandon Bridge marthen
Bernard, Thomas, jun. King's Campbell, Arch. Glasgow, &c.
County Campbell, hon. G. P. Nairne.
Binning, lord, Rochester shire
Birch, Joseph, Nottingham Canning, right hon. George, Li-
Blackburne, John, Lancashire verpool
Blair, James Hunter, Wigtown- Carew, Rob. Shapland, Wexford-
shire shire
Blair, James, Aldeburgh Carhampton, earl of, Lodgershall
Blake, Robert, Arundel Carrol, John, New Ross
Boswell, Alexander, Plympton CarTer, John. Portsmouth
Boughey, sir J. Bart. Stafford- Cartwright, Wm. Ralph, North.
shire amptonshire
Boughton, William E. R. Eves- Castlereagh, viscount, Down-
ham shire
Bourne, right hon. W. S. Christ- Caulfield, hon. H. Armaghshire
church Cavendish, lord G. A. H. Derby.
Bouverie, hon. Barthol, Downton shire
Bradshaw, Robert Haldane, Cavendish, hon. H. F. C. Derby
Brackley Cawthorne, I. F. Lancaster
Branding, C. I. Northumberland i Cecil, lord Thomas, Stamford
Bridges, George, London Chamberlayne, William, South-
Bright, H. Bristol ampton
Broadhead, T. H. Yarm. Isle of Chaplin, Charles, Lincolnshire
Wight Cheere, E. M. Cambridge
Brogden, James, Launceston Cherry, G H. Dunwich
Brougham, Henry, Winchelsea Chetwynde, George, Stafford
Browne, Dominick, Mayo Chichester, Arthur, Carrickfergus
Browne, James, Mayo Childe, W. L. Wenlock
Browne, right hon. D. Kilkenny Claughton, Thomas, Newton,
Brown, Peter, Rye Lancashire
Brownlow, Charles, Armaghshire Clements, J. M. Leitrimshire
Bruce, Robert, Clackmannan. Clerk, sir George, bart. Edin.
shire burghshire
Brudenell, lord, Marlborough Clifford, W. J. Dnngarvon
Bruen, Henry, Carlowshire Clifton, lord, Canterbury
Burdett, sir Francis, bart. West- Clinton, sir Wm. Henry, Newark
minster Clive, viscount, Ludlow
Burgh, sir Ulysses B. Carlowshire Clive, Henry, Montgomery
Burrell, sir Charles M. bart. New Clive, hon. Robert H. Ludlow
Shorehain Cockburn, sir George, Weobly
Burrell, Walter, Sussex Cockerell, sir Charles, bait.
Bury, vise. Arundel Evesham
Butler, hon. James W. Kilkenny- Cocks, hon. James S. Ryegate
shire Cocks, hon. John Somers, Here-
Butterworth, Joseph, Dover ford
Buxton, John Jacob, Bedwyn Coffin, sir Isaac, bart. Ilchester
Buxton, Thomas Fowell, Wey- Coke, Thomas William, Norfolk
mouth Coke, Thomas W.jun. Derby

List of the House of Commons.

Colborne, Nich. W. R. Thetford Downie, Rob. Inverkeithing, &c.
Cole, hon. sir G. L. Fermanagh- Drummond, James, Prilhshire
shire Dugdale, Dugdale Stratf. War-
Cole, sir C. Glamorganshire wiekshire
Collett, Eben. John, Cashell Dunally, lord, Okehampton
Colquhoun, right ion. A. Dum- Duncannon, viscount, Malton
bartonshire Duncomb, W. Grimsby
Colthurst, sir N. C. hart. Cork Duncombe, Charles, Newport,
Concannon, Lucius, Winchelsea Isle of Wight
Congreve, sir Wm. Plymouth Dundas, Charles, Berkshire
Cooper, Robert B. Gloucester Dundas, Thomas, Richmond
Cooper, Edward Synge, Sligo- Dundas, right hon. Wni. Edin-
shire burgh
Copley, sir John Singleton, Dunlop, James, Kirkcudbright
Ashburton Ebrington, lord viscount, Tavi-
Corbet, P. Shrewsbury stock
Cotes, John, Shropshire Edmonstone, sir C. bart. Stirling-
Cotterell, sir J. G. hart. Here- shire
fordshire Edwards, hon. E. H. Blechingly
Courtenay, Thomas Peregrine, Egerton, Wilbraham, Cheli-lre
Totness Elford, Jonathan, Westbury
Courtenay, William, Exeter Eliot, hon. William, Liskeard
Coussmaker, George, Kinsale Ellice, Edward, Coventry
Cranborne, viscount, Hertford Ellis, Charles Rose, Seaford
Crawford, Arthur J. Old Sarum Ellis, lion. G. J. Seaford
Crawley, Samuel, Honiton Ellis, Henry, Boston
Creevey, Thomas, Appleby Ellison, Cuthbert, Newcastle upon
Cripps, Joseph, Cirencester Tyne
Croker, John W. Bodmyn Estcourt, Thomas Gl mston,
Crompton, Samuel, Retford Devizes
Crosbie, James, Kerryshire Evans, William, Retford
Cnffe, James, Tra!ee Erelyn, Lyndon, St. Ives
Cumming, George, Fortrose Fane, John, Oxfordshire
Cunningham-Fairlie, sir William, Fane, John Thomas, Lime Regis
bait. Leominster Fane, Vere, Lime Regis
Curteis, E. J. Sussex Farquharson, Arch. Elgin, &c.
Curtis, sir Wm. batt. London Farrand, Robert, Hedon
Curwen, John Christian, Cum- Fellowes, Win. Henry, Hunting-
berland donshire
Curzon, hon. Robert, Clitherow Fergusbn, James, Aberdeenshire
Cust, hon. William, Clitherow Fergusson, sir R. C. Dysart, &c.
Cust, hon. Edward, Grantham Ferrars-Townsend, lord C. Tam-
Cust, hon. Peregrine, F. Honiton worth
Dalrymple, J. A. Appleby Fetherston, sir G. bart. Long.
Daly, James, Galwayshire fordshire
Davenport. ]avies, Cheshire Fife, earl of, Bamfshire
Davies, Thomas Henry, Wor- Finch, George, Lymington
cester Fitzgerald, right hon. William,
Davies, Richard Hart, Bristol Clare
Dawkins, James, Hastings Fitzgerald, right hon. M. Kerry-
Dawkins, Henry, Boroughbridge shire,
Dawson, Geo. Rob. Londonderry Fitzgerald, lord W. C. Kildare.
County shire
Dawson, J. H. M. Clonmell Fitz-Gibbon, hon. Richard, Li-
De Crespigny, sir W. C. South- merickshire
ampton Fitz-Harris, viscount, Wilton
Deerhurst, viscount, Worcester Fitzroy, lord Charles, Thetford
Denison, Wm. Joseph, Surrey Fitzroy, lord John, Bury St. Ed-
Denman, Thomas, Nottingham monds
Dent, John, Poole Fleming, John, Hampshire
Dickinson, William, Somerset- Foley, Thomas, Droitwich
shire Folkes, sir M. B. bart. King's
Divett, T. Gatton Lynn
Dobson, John, Rye Folkestone, viscount, New Sartqm
Domville, sir Compton, Bossiney Forbes, Charles. Malmesbury
Don, sir Alexander, Roxburgh- Forbes, viscount, Longfordshir
shire Forester, Francis, Wenlock
Douglas, John, Orford Foster, right hon. John, Louthi
Douglas, W. Rob. Keith, Dum- shire
fries, &c. Fox, G. Lane, Beverley
Doveton, Gabriel, Lancaster Frankland, Robert, Thirsk
Dowdeswell, John Edm. Tewkes. Fremantle, Wm. Henry, Buck.
bury ingham

French, Arthur, Roscommon.
Fynes, Henry, Aldborough
Gascoyne, Isaac, Liverpool
Gaskell, Benjamin, Malden
Gifford, sir Robert, Eye
Gilbert, Davies, Bodmyn
Gipps, George, Ripon
Gladstone, John, Woodstock
Glenoruhy, lord, Oakhampton
Gooch, Thomas Sherlock, Suffolk
Gordon, Robert, Cricklade
Gosset, William, Truro
Goulburn, Henry, West Looe
Graham, James, St. Ives
Graham, Sandford, Ludgershall
Graham, sir James, bart. Car-
Grant, J. P. Tavistock

Grant, Alex. Cray, Lestwithiel
Grant, right hon. Charles, Inver-
Grant, Francis Wm. Elginshire
Grant, Geo. Macphersun, Suther-
Graves, lord, Milborne Port
Greenhill-Russell, Robt. Thirsk
Grenfell, Pascoe, Penryn
Greville, lion. sir C. J. Warwick
Griffith, John Wynne, Denbigh
Grossett, J. R. Chippenham
Grosvenor, Rich. E. D. Romney
Grosvenor, Thomas, Chester
Guise, sir B. Wm. bart. Glouces-
Gurney, Hudson, Newton, Hants
Gurney, Richard H. Norwich
Haldimand, W. Ipswich
Hamilton, lord Arch. Lanark-
Hamilton, sir H. D. bart. Had.
dington, &c.
Hamilton, Hans. Dublinshire
Harbord, hon. E. Shaftesbury
Iardinge, sir H. Durham
Hare, hon. Richard, Corkshire
Hart, George Vaughan, Donegal-
Harvey, Charles, Carlow
Harvey, Daniel W. Colchester
Harvey, sir E. Essex
Heathcote, sir Gilb. hart. Rut-
Heathcote, J. G. Boston
Heron, sir Robt. Peterborough
Heygate, William, Sudbury
Hill, lord Arthur, Downshire
H11I, right hon. sir G. F. Lon.
Hobhouse, J. C. Westminster
Hodson, John, Wigan
Holford, G. Queenborough
Holmes, sir L T. W. bart. New.
port, Isle of Wight
Holmes, William, Bishop's
Honeywood, William, P. Kent
Hope, hon. sir Alex. Linlithgow.
Hope, sir Wm. Johnston, Dum.
Hornby, Edmund, Preston
Horrocks, Samuel, Preston

List of the House of Commons.
Hotham, lord, Leominster Lovaine, lord, Beralston Mostyn, sir Thomas, bart. Flint.
Houldsworth, Thomas, Pontefract Lowther, hon. H. Cecil, West- shire
Howard, hen. F. G. Castle-Rising morland Mountcharles, earl, Donegalshire
Howard-Molyneux-Howard, lord Lowther, John, Cumberland Mundy, Edw. Miller, Derbyshire,
Henry Thomas, Steyning Lowther, John H. Cockermouth Munday, George, Boroughbridge
Howard, hen. Win. Morpeth Lowther, viscount, Westmor- Neale, sirHarry B. bart. Lyming-
Hudson, Harrington, Hellestone land toll
Hughes, W. Lewis, Wallingford Loyd, S. J. Hythe Needham, hon. Fran. Newry
Hughes, James, Grantham Lucy, George, Fowey Neville, hon. Richard, Berkshire
Hulse, sir Charles, West Looe Lushington, Steph. R. Canter- Newman, Robt. Wm. Exeter
Hume, Joseph, Aberdeen, &c. bury Newport, rt. hon. sir J. bart.
Hurst, Robert, Horsham Lushington, S. Ilchester Waterford
Huskisson, right hon. William, Luttrell, Henry Fownes, Mine- Nicholl, rt. hon. sir J., Bedwyn
Chichester head Nightingale, S. M. Eye
Hutchinson, hon. C. H. Cork Luttrell, J. Fownes, Minehead Noel, sir Gerard Noel, bart. Rut-
Hyde, John, Youghall Maherly, John, Abingdon land
James, William, Carlisle Maberly, William L. North- Nolan, Michael, Barnstaple
Jenkinson, hon. C. C. C. Grin- amptin North, Dudley, Newtown, Hants.
stead Macdonald, James, Calne Northey,William, Newport, Corn-
Jervoice, G. P. Hampshire Macdonald, Ronald George, wall
Innes, sir Hugh, hart. Kirkwall, Plympton Nugent, sir G. bart. Buckingham
&c. Mackintosh, sir James, bart. Nogent, lord, Aylesbury
Innes, John, Grampound Knaresborough O'Brien, sir Edw. bart. Clare
Jocelyn, viscount, Louthshire Mackenzie, Thomas, Ross-shire O'Callaglan, James, Tregony
Jolliffe, Hylton, Petersfield M'Naughten, E. A. Orford O'Grady, S. Limerickshire
Irving, John, Bramber Macqueen, Thomas Potter, East O'Hara, Charles, Sligoshire
Kennedy, Thos. F, Ayr, &c. Looe Ommaney, sir Francis M. Barn-
Kerr, David, Athlone Madocks, Wmi. Alex. Chippen- staple
King, sir J. D. bart. Wycombe ham O'Neil, hon. J. R. Bruce, Antrim-
Kingsborough,viscount, Corkshire Magenis, Richard, Enniskillen shire
Kinnersley, Wm. S. Newcastle, Mahon, sir R. Ennis Onslow, Arthur, Guildford
Stafford Mahon, hon. Stephen, Roscom- Ord, William, Morpeth
Knatchbull, sir Edward, bart. monshire Osborne, lord F. G. Cambridge-
Kent Manners, lord Charles S. Cam- shire
Knox, hon. Thomas, Dungannon bridgeshire Ossnlstone, lord, Berwick
Kynaston-Powell,sir J. Shropshire Manners, lord Robert, Leicester- Owen, sir John, Pembrokeshire
Lamb, hon, William, Hertford- shire Paget, hen. Berkeley, Milborne
shire Mansfield, John, Leicester Port
Lambton, John George, Durham Marjoribanks, sir J. bart. Ber- Paget, hon. sir Charles, Carnar-
Langstone, J. H. Woodstock wickshire von
Lascelles, viscount, Northallerton Marjoribanks, S. Hythe Pakenham, hon. H. Rob. West-
Latouche, Robert, Kildareshire Markham, J. Portsmouth meath County
Legge, hon. Heneage, Banbury Marryat, Joseph, Sandwich Palk, sir L. V. bart. Ashburton
Legh, Thomas, Newton, Lanca- Martin, sir Thos. B. Plymouth Palmer, Charles Fyshe, Reading
shire Martin, Richard, Galwayshire Palmer, Charles, Bath
Legh-Keck, George Ant. Leices. Martin, James, Tewkesbury Palmerstone, viscount, Cam-
tershire Maule, hon. Wm. R. Forfarshire bridge University
Leigh, James Henry, Winchester Maxwell, John, Renfrewshire Pares, Thomas, Leicester
Lemon, sir William, bart. Corn- Maxwell, J. W. Downpatrick Parnell, sir Henry, bart. Queen's
wall Metcalf, H. J. Drogheda County
Lennard, Thomas, Barrett, Ips- Metdge, John, Dundalk Parnell, William, Wicklowshire
which Milbank, Mark, Camelford Parsons John, King's County
Lennox, lord John George, Chi- Mildmay, Paulet St. J. Win- Pearse, John. Devizes
chester chester Pechell, sir Thomas B. Downtown
Leslie, Charles Powell, Mo- Mills, Charles, Warwick Peel, right hon. Robert, Oxford
naghanshire Milne, sir David, h,.rt. Berwick University
Lester, Benj. Lester, Poole Milton, viscount, Yorkshire Peel, William Yates, Tamworth
Lethbridge, sir T. B. bart. So- Mitchell, John, Kingston-upon- Peirse, Henry, Northallerton
mersetshire Hull Pelham, hon. Charles A. Lincoln-
Lewis, Thomas Frankland, Beau- Monck, J. B. Reading shire
maris Money, Wmi. Taylor, St. Michael Pellew, hon. Powell, B. Launces-
Lewis, Wyndham, Cardiff Monteith, H. J. Selkirk, &c. ton
Lindsay, lord, Wigan Montgomery, sir J. bart. Peeble- Pennant, G. H. D. Romney
Lindsay, hon. H. Forfar, &c. shire Percy, hon. H. Beralston
Littleton, Edw. John, Staffordshire Montgomerie, James, Ayrshire Percy, hon. W. H. Stamford
Lloyd, James Martin, New Moore, Peter, Coventry Phillimore, Joseph, St. Mawes
Shoreham Moore, A. Shaftesbury Philips, George, Wotton Basset
Lloyd, sir Edward Price, bt. Flint Mordauut, sir C. bart. Warwick- Philips, George Richard, Steyning
Lckliart, William Elliot, Se'. shire Phipps, hon. Edm. Scarborough
kirkshire Morgan, sir Charles, bart. Mon- Pitt, Joseph, Cricklade
Lockhart, J. I. Oxford mouthshire Pitt, William Morton, Dorset-
Long, right hon. Charles, Hasle- Morgan, George Gould, Brecon shire
mere Morland, sirS. B. bart. St. Mawes Plumer, William, Higlam Ferrers

List of the House of Commons.
Plumer, John, Hindon Scudamore, Rich. Phil. Hereford Townshend, lord C. Tamworth
Plunket, right hon. W. C. Dub- Sebright, sir John, S. hart. Hert- Tremayne, John Hearle, Corn.
lin University fordshire wall
Pole, sir Peter, bart. Yarmouth, Sefton, earl of, Droitwich Trench, F. W. Cambridge
Isle of Wight Seymour, Horace, Lisburn Tnlk, C. A. Sudbury
Pole, right hon. W. W. Queen's Seymour, H. J. Hugh, Antrim- Tudway, John Payne, Wells
County shire Twiss, Horace, Wootton Bassett
Pollen, sir J. hart. Andover Shaw, Robert, Dublin Tynte, C. K. Bridgewater
Pollington, viscount, Pontefract Sheldon, Ralph, Wilton Tyrwhit-Drake, Thos. Agmonde.
Ponsonby, hon. Fred. C. Kilkenny- Shelley, sir John bart. Lewes sham
shire Shiffner, sir George, bart. Lewes Tyrwhit-Drake, Wm. Agmonde-
Portman, Edw. Berkeley, Dorset. Sbithorp, Coningsby W. Lincoln sham
shire Smith, George, Wendover Upton, hon. Arthur P. Bury St.
Powell, William Edward, Cardi- Smith, John, Midhurst Edmonds
ganshire Smith, Abel, Midhurst Ure, Masterton, Weymouth
Power, Richard, Waterfordshire Smith, Christopher, St. Albans Uxbridge, earl of, Angleseyshire
Powlett, hon. W. I. F. Durham Smith, hon. Robert, Bucking- Valletort, viscount, Foiwey
County hamshire Vansittart, rt. hon. N. Harwich
Prendergast, M. G. Galway Smith, Samuel, Wendover Vaughan, sir R. W. bart. Merio-
Price, Robert, Herefordslre Smith, Thos. Assheton, Andover nethshire
Price, Richard, New Radnor Smith, William, Norwich Vereker hon. J. Pren. Limerick
Pringle, sir William H. Liskeard Smith, Robert, Lincoln Vernon, Granville G. Ven. Lich-
Prettie, hon. F. A. Tipperary Smyth, John Henry, Cambridge field
Proby, hon. Gran. Lev. Wicklow- University Villiers, right hon. J. C. Queen-
shire Sneyd. Nathaniel, Cavansh:re borough
Pryse, Pryse, Cardigan Somerset, lord G. C. H. Mon- Vivian, sir R. H. Trnro
Pym, Francis, Bedfordshire imouthshire Walker, Joshua, Aldeborgh
Rae, sir W. bart. Crall, &c. Somerset, lord R. E. H. Glouces- Wall, Charles Baring, Guildford
Raine, Jonathan, Newport, Corn- tershire Wa.lace, rt. hon. Thus. Wey-
wall Somerville, sir M. bt. Meathshire mouth
Ramsbottom, John,jun. Windsor Sotheron F. Nottinghamshire Walpole, lord, King's Lynn
Ramsay, sir A. bart. Kincardine- Spurrier, C. Bridport Ward, hon. John Wmi. Bossiney
shire Stanley, lord, Lancashire Ward, Robert, Haslemere
Ramsden, John Charles, Malton Staunton, sir George bart. St. Warre, J. A. Taunton
Ricardo, David, Portarlington Michael Warren, Charles, Dorchester
Rice, G. R. Carmarthen Stewart, Alexander R. London- Warrender, sir G. bart. Sandwich
Ricketts, C. M. Dartmouth derryshire Webb, Edward, Gloucester
Rickford, William, Aylesbury Stewart, hon. J. H. K. Wigton, Wells, J. Maidstone
Ridley, sir Matt. White, bart. &c. Wemyss, J. Fife
Newcastle-upon-Tyne Stewart, W. Tyrone County Westenra, hon. H. R.Monaghan-
Robarts, Abraham W. Maidstone Stewart, right hon. sir J. bart. shire
Robarts, William Tierney, St. Tyrone County Western, Charles Callis, Essex
Albans Stopford, lord, Wexfordshire Wetherell, C. Oxford
Robarts, G. J. Wallingford Strathaven, lord, Grinstead Wharton, John, Beverley
Roberts, Wilson, A. Bewdley Strutt, Joseph Holden, Maiden Whitbread, Wm. Henry, Bed-
Robertson, Alexander, Gram- Stuart-Wortley, Jas. A. Yorkshire ford
pound Stuart, lord P. J. Bute Whitbread, S. C. Middlesex
Robinson, right hon. Fr. J. Ripon Stewart, William, Armagh White, Luke, Leitrimshire
Robinson, sir G. bart. Northamp- Sumner, Geo. Holme, Surrey Whitmore, Thomas, Bridgenorth
ton Suttie, sir James, bart. Hadding- Whitmore, William, Bridgenorth
Rochfort, Gustavus, H. West- tonshire Wigram, sir Robert, Lestwithiel
meathshire Sutton, rt. hon. C. M. Scarbo- Wigram, W. Wexford
Rocksavage, earl of, Castle Rising rough Wilberforce, William, Bramber
Rogers, Edward, Bishop's Castle Swann, Henry, Penryn Wilhraham, Edw. B. Dover
Rose, right hon. George H. Sykes, Daniel, Kingston-upon. Wildman, James B. Colchester
Christchurch Hull Wilkins, Walter, Radnorshire
Rowley, sir William hart. Suffolk Talbot, Rich. Wogan,Dublinshire Williams, Owen, Marlow
Rumbold, Charles E. Yarmouth Tavistock, marq. of, Bedfordshire Williams, sir Robert, bart. Car-
Russell, Matthew, Saltash Taylor, sir Herbert, Windsor narvonshire
Russel, J. W. Gatton Taylor, Charles William, Wells Williams, Robert, Dorchester
Russell, lord John Huntingdon- Tayl,,r, George Watson, East Lone Williams, William, Weymouth
shire Taylor, M. Angelo, Durham City Williams, T. P. Marlow
Russell, lord George W. Bedford Temple, earl, Buckinghamshire Willoughby, Henry, Newark
Ryder, right hon. Richard, Tiver- Tennyson, Charles, Grimsby Wilmot, Robert J. Newcastle,
ton Thompson, William, Callington Stafford
Sandon, viscount, Tiverton Thynne, lord John, Bath Wilson, sir Robert, Southwark
Scarlett, James, Peterborough Tierney, rt. lion. George, Knares- Wilson, Thomas, London
Scott, Samuel, Whitchurch borough Winuington, S.T. Worcestershire
Scott, sir William, knt. Oxford Titchfield marq. of, Blechingley Wodehouse, Edmond, Norfolk
University Townshend, hon. H. G. P. Whit- Wodehouse, hon. J. Marlborough
Scott, J. Bridport church Wood, Matthew, London
Scott, hon. W. H. I. Hastings Townshend, lord J. N. B. Helles- Wood, Thomas, Breconshire
Scourfield, W. H. Haverfordwest ton Worcester, marq. of, Monmouth

List of the House of Commons.

Wrottesley, Henry, Brackley
Wyndham, Wadham, New Sa-
Wynne, Owen, Sligo
Wynn, Chas. Watkin Win. Mont-
Wynn, sir W. Will. bart. Den-
Wyvill, M. York
Yarmouth, earl of, Camelford
Yorke, sir Jos. Sydney, Ryegate.

Bruce, Thomas, earl of Elgin and
Colville, John, baron Colville
Dalrymple, John, earl of Stair
Douglas, Charles, marq. Queens-
Erskine, Thomas, earl of Kellie
Forbes, Ochonear J. baron Forbes
Fraser, Geo, Alex. baron Saltoun

Gray, Francis, baron Gray
Hamilton, Montgomery, Robert
baron Belhaven
Hay, George, marquis Tweedale
Kerr, William, marquis Lothian
Lindsay, Alex. earl of Balcarras
Napier, Francis, baron Napier
Primrose, J. A. earl of Roseberry
Ramey, Home, Alex. earl of
St. Clair, Charles, baron Sinclair



As it stood in June 1820.


Earl of Harrowby - Lord President of the Council.
Lord Eldon - Lord High Chancellor.
Earl of Westmoreland Lord Privy Seal.
Earl of Liverpool First Lord of the Treasury.
Chancellor and Under-Treasurer of the Ex-
Right Hon. Nicholas Vansittart chequer, and Chancellor of the Exchequer
for Ireland.
Viscount Melville First Lord of the Admiralty.
Duke of Wellington Master-General of the Ordnance.
Viscount Sidmouth - Secretary of State for the Home Department.
Viscount Castlereagh - Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
Earl Bathurst - -Secretary of State for the Department of War
I and the Colonies.
R G e C g President of the Board of Control for the Af-
Right Hon. George Canning- fairs of India.
Right Hon. Charles Bragge Bathurst Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
Right Hon. W. W. Pole Master of the Mint.
Right Hon. F. J. Robinson Treasurer of the Navy, and President of the
I Board of Trade.
Earl of Mulgrave - -


Viscount Palmerston -
Right Hon. Charles Long -
Earl of Chichester -
Marquis of Salisbury -
Right Hon. Charles Arbuthnot
S. R. Lushington, esq. -
Right Hon. Thomas Wallace
Right Hon. Thos. Plumer -
Right Hon. Sir John Leach -
Sir Robert Gifford -
Sir John Copley -

Secretary at War.
Paymaster-General of the Forces.
SJoint Postmaster-General.

SJoint Secretaries of the Treasury.
Vice-President of the Board of Trade.
Master of the Rolls.
Vice Chancellor.
Attorney General.
Solicitor General.

Earl Talbot - Lord Lieutenant.
Lord Manners Lord High Chancellor.
Right Hon. Charles Grant Chief Secretary.
Right Hon. Sir G. F. Hill Vice Treasurer.


Parliamentary Debates

During the First Session of the Seventh Parliament of the
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, ap-
pointed to meet at Westminster, the Twenty-first Day
of April 1820, in the First Year of the Reign of His
Majesty King GEORGE the Fourth.

Friday, April 21, 1820.
MENT.] This being the day appointed for
the meeting of the New Parliament,several
peers assembled at two o'clock. Soon
after that hour the Lord Chancellor, the
archbishop of Canterbury, the duke of
Wellington, the earl of Westmoreland,
and the earl of Shaftesbury, took their
seats in front of the throne as commis-
sioners. The Lord Chancellor directed
the deputy gentleman usher of the Black
Rod to proceed to the Commons, and
summon that House to attend at their
lordships' bar forthwith. Mr. Quarme,
the deputy usher, proceeded accordingly
to the House of Commons, and soon after
returned, accompanied by the clerks of
that House, and a considerable number of
themembers. The Lord Chancellor stated,
that his majesty had been pleased to
order letters patent to be issued for the
appointment of certain lords therein
named to open the parliament, which
letters patent the lords and gentlemen
present would now hear read.-The com-
mission being read, the Lord Chancellor
said, that in obedience to his majesty's
commands, he had to inform the lords and
gentlemen then in attendance, that as
soon as a sufficient number of members of
both Houses should be sworn, his majesty
would declare the causes for the as-
sembling of this parliament. In the mean
time, it was his majesty's pleasure that the
gentlemen of the House of Commons
should return to the place where they
VOL. I. 1. W

usually hold their sittings, and there pro-
ceed to choose a fit and proper person to
be their Speaker, and that they should
present the person so chosen at the bar of
that House to-morrow, at two o'clock, for
his majesty's approbation. The Commons
then withdrew, and their lordships went
to prayers. After prayers, the oaths
were taken in the usual form by the lords

Friday, April 21.
members of the new parliament having
assembled in the House of Commons at
half past two, the yeoman usher of the
Black Rod appeared at the bar of the
House, and having proceeded to the table,
informed the members that they were re-
quired by the Lords Commissioners to
attend the House of Peers to hear the
Commission read. After they had re-
Sir II'. ...; Scott rose for the purpose
of submitting a motion to supply the
vacancy in the honourable office of
Speaker. He had never claimed the at-
tention of the House with more unmixed
satisfaction, from a conviction that the
opinion he entertained upon this subject
was universal among the honourable gen-
tlemen whom hewas addressing. Although
the distinguished individual who had pre-
sided over the deliberations of the House
during the two last parliaments had per-
haps the most indisputable title again to
fill the same office, he could not but be


Parliamentary Debates

During the First Session of the Seventh Parliament of the
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, ap-
pointed to meet at Westminster, the Twenty-first Day
of April 1820, in the First Year of the Reign of His
Majesty King GEORGE the Fourth.

Friday, April 21, 1820.
MENT.] This being the day appointed for
the meeting of the New Parliament,several
peers assembled at two o'clock. Soon
after that hour the Lord Chancellor, the
archbishop of Canterbury, the duke of
Wellington, the earl of Westmoreland,
and the earl of Shaftesbury, took their
seats in front of the throne as commis-
sioners. The Lord Chancellor directed
the deputy gentleman usher of the Black
Rod to proceed to the Commons, and
summon that House to attend at their
lordships' bar forthwith. Mr. Quarme,
the deputy usher, proceeded accordingly
to the House of Commons, and soon after
returned, accompanied by the clerks of
that House, and a considerable number of
themembers. The Lord Chancellor stated,
that his majesty had been pleased to
order letters patent to be issued for the
appointment of certain lords therein
named to open the parliament, which
letters patent the lords and gentlemen
present would now hear read.-The com-
mission being read, the Lord Chancellor
said, that in obedience to his majesty's
commands, he had to inform the lords and
gentlemen then in attendance, that as
soon as a sufficient number of members of
both Houses should be sworn, his majesty
would declare the causes for the as-
sembling of this parliament. In the mean
time, it was his majesty's pleasure that the
gentlemen of the House of Commons
should return to the place where they
VOL. I. 1. W

usually hold their sittings, and there pro-
ceed to choose a fit and proper person to
be their Speaker, and that they should
present the person so chosen at the bar of
that House to-morrow, at two o'clock, for
his majesty's approbation. The Commons
then withdrew, and their lordships went
to prayers. After prayers, the oaths
were taken in the usual form by the lords

Friday, April 21.
members of the new parliament having
assembled in the House of Commons at
half past two, the yeoman usher of the
Black Rod appeared at the bar of the
House, and having proceeded to the table,
informed the members that they were re-
quired by the Lords Commissioners to
attend the House of Peers to hear the
Commission read. After they had re-
Sir II'. ...; Scott rose for the purpose
of submitting a motion to supply the
vacancy in the honourable office of
Speaker. He had never claimed the at-
tention of the House with more unmixed
satisfaction, from a conviction that the
opinion he entertained upon this subject
was universal among the honourable gen-
tlemen whom hewas addressing. Although
the distinguished individual who had pre-
sided over the deliberations of the House
during the two last parliaments had per-
haps the most indisputable title again to
fill the same office, he could not but be


Parliamentary Debates

During the First Session of the Seventh Parliament of the
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, ap-
pointed to meet at Westminster, the Twenty-first Day
of April 1820, in the First Year of the Reign of His
Majesty King GEORGE the Fourth.

Friday, April 21, 1820.
MENT.] This being the day appointed for
the meeting of the New Parliament,several
peers assembled at two o'clock. Soon
after that hour the Lord Chancellor, the
archbishop of Canterbury, the duke of
Wellington, the earl of Westmoreland,
and the earl of Shaftesbury, took their
seats in front of the throne as commis-
sioners. The Lord Chancellor directed
the deputy gentleman usher of the Black
Rod to proceed to the Commons, and
summon that House to attend at their
lordships' bar forthwith. Mr. Quarme,
the deputy usher, proceeded accordingly
to the House of Commons, and soon after
returned, accompanied by the clerks of
that House, and a considerable number of
themembers. The Lord Chancellor stated,
that his majesty had been pleased to
order letters patent to be issued for the
appointment of certain lords therein
named to open the parliament, which
letters patent the lords and gentlemen
present would now hear read.-The com-
mission being read, the Lord Chancellor
said, that in obedience to his majesty's
commands, he had to inform the lords and
gentlemen then in attendance, that as
soon as a sufficient number of members of
both Houses should be sworn, his majesty
would declare the causes for the as-
sembling of this parliament. In the mean
time, it was his majesty's pleasure that the
gentlemen of the House of Commons
should return to the place where they
VOL. I. 1. W

usually hold their sittings, and there pro-
ceed to choose a fit and proper person to
be their Speaker, and that they should
present the person so chosen at the bar of
that House to-morrow, at two o'clock, for
his majesty's approbation. The Commons
then withdrew, and their lordships went
to prayers. After prayers, the oaths
were taken in the usual form by the lords

Friday, April 21.
members of the new parliament having
assembled in the House of Commons at
half past two, the yeoman usher of the
Black Rod appeared at the bar of the
House, and having proceeded to the table,
informed the members that they were re-
quired by the Lords Commissioners to
attend the House of Peers to hear the
Commission read. After they had re-
Sir II'. ...; Scott rose for the purpose
of submitting a motion to supply the
vacancy in the honourable office of
Speaker. He had never claimed the at-
tention of the House with more unmixed
satisfaction, from a conviction that the
opinion he entertained upon this subject
was universal among the honourable gen-
tlemen whom hewas addressing. Although
the distinguished individual who had pre-
sided over the deliberations of the House
during the two last parliaments had per-
haps the most indisputable title again to
fill the same office, he could not but be

i] 1Iio-'. OF COMMONS,
aware that he was speaking in the pre-
sence of many who, on any other occasion,
both from public and private considera-
tions, would be equally deserving of the
utmost confidence of the House. It could
not be denied that, composed as that
House was of gentlemen selected from
the various component parts of society in
the United Kingdom, many were to be
found in it whose talents, acquirements,
and general merits would afford a fair
prospect of a successful discharge of the
arduous duties of Speaker. Here, how-
ever, it was fortunately not necessary to
hazardany speculation, howeverpromising;
past services, and tried and demonstrable
abilities-abilities not confined to the
mere discharge of what might be termed
the dry duties of the office-had com-
manded not merely the approbation, but
the admiration, of every member who had
witnessed their employment. Thus all
experiment was rendered needless, and
perhaps he should justly merit censure if
lie were to attempt any description of the
duties of the individual who was appointed
to preside over the discussions of the
House: he should better discharge this
part of the task he had undertaken, by
referring to the mode in which his right
hon. friend had fulfilled those duties.
[Hear, hear!]. With regard to the quali-
fications of a Speaker also, it might be
said, in a word, that all and more had
been displayed by the individual about to
be offered to the choice of the House; but,
as many gentlemen might be now present
who had not had an opportunity of per-
sonally observing their exercise, he would
make a very few remarks upon them.
The first qualification undoubtedly was, a
warm affection for the happy constitution
of this country, including an inflexible
regard for the rights and privileges of
the House, and for the just liberties of
the people, of which liberties those rights
and privileges were to be numbered among
the principal securities. A great portion
of health and strength was necessary to
undergo the severe labour, he had almost
said the oppressive fatigue of such a
station: the Journals of the House con-
tained a voluminous body of historical
reading, and to a familiarity with them
must be added an official acquaintance,
not merely with forms, but with the prin-
ciples on which those forms originated,
and upon which they were most wisely
established. A facility of access, and a
frankness of communication in all the in-

Choice of a Speaker. [4
tercourse of private business, were highly
desirable; and an attention ever awake to
the exigencies of the moment in the per-
formance of more public functions was in-
dispensable. All who were members of
the last parliament knew how eminently
these requisites were united in his right
hon. friend; and to them might be added
one more amiable qualification equally
conspicuous-an unaffected suavity of
disposition and manners; a suavity that,
without courting popular regard, univer-
sally attracted it. A liberal, a splendid
hospitality, 'congenial with the habits of
the country, and well becoming the dig-
nity of the presiding member of a great
deliberative assembly, had ever been ex-
perienced at his table. If the present
had been an occasion on which he
ought to indulge his own feelings, he
could readily amplify upon the qualities
necessary for a Speaker, because lie had
before him a perfect example of them;
but it behoved him to forbear the grati-
fication of his own personal wishes, that
he might no longer retard the declara-
tion of that united sentiment which the
House was impatient to display. He
therefore would mc;e, without further
preface, That the Right Honourable
Charles Manners Sutton do take the
chair of this House as Speaker."
Mr. lIolme Sumner seconded the
motion. He said, he had not sat so
long in parliament without having ob-
tained some knowledge of the ardu-
ous duties of the Speaker: the great
increase of public business had of late
added much to the severity of the bur-
then. In thus supporting the proposi-
tion of the right hon. mover he was
aware that he was placing himself in a
situation to which he had no other
claim than the length of time during
which he had filled a seat in parliament:
his service as a representative had taught
him how much of the regularity and
dignity of their proceedings were con-
nected with the office of Speaker. If he
had had to recommend a gentleman who
was unknown, it would have been proper
to have entered at some length into the
foundation of his claim; but, as had
been already remarked, the individual
now proposed had proved himself, in
every way, worthy of the confidence and
approbation of the House. As he had
never known Mr. Manners Sutton but in
his public capacity, he could not propose
him v ith the partiality of private friend.

ship; but the respect and regard he had flattering, nor the hon. gentleman who
excited in his public capacity were amply had so handsomely seconded it, nor the
sufficient to establish his competence. House which had received the pro-
When it was recollected that the edu- position with such marks of approba-
cation of that right hon. gentleman had tion, would measure the strength of
beendirectedto thelaws ofhis country,and his feelings of gratitude on this occasion
to the principles of its inestimuble con- by the feeble manner in which he should
stitution, that alone formed a high claim express them. He fully concurred in all
to the suffrages of the House; but after that had been said of the high duties and
it had been seen in how short a time after weighty labours of the office of Speaker
he had been first elevated to the situation not only as it was immediately connected
of Speaker, three years ago, he had ap- with the House itself, but as it respected
peared to have deeply studied the laws and the public at large. At all times the
rules, and investigated the principles by most embarrassing subject was that where
which the proceedings of the House were the individual addressing the House was
regulated-after the readiness he had dis- personally concerned: no man who spoke
played in the discharge of every point of honestly was too ready to undervalue
duty, it would have been supposed, by himself; and when the difficulties that
those unacquainted with his previous his- surrounded the situation of Speaker, were
tory, that he had made the subject the considered-when it was recollected how
diligent occupation of his life. To this much, as the honourable member for
knowledge was to be added a becoming Surrey had observed, the public business
deference for the opinion of the House, had increased, being of late years almost
which, while it evinced a confidence in his doubled-and when were added to that
own information, by the manner in the new embarrassments arising out of
which the rule was prescribed, did the times in which we lived, that man
not diminish from the dignity of the station must be a bold one who dared to presume
he was appointed to occupy. He that he was adequate to such an office.
might advert, also, to the peculiar His right hon. friend, whose kindness in
facility with which all members obtained public and private he had experienced on
access to him, and to the urbanity of his many occasions, but never more than on
communications on all subjects of parlia- the present, had been pleased to refer
mentary difficulty; but it was needless, as with approbation to his previous conduct
most of tlrose who heard him had had in the chair: he could only say, that if he
frequent opportunities of experiencing it. had had the good fortune to give satis-
After the manner in which the motion faction, he had already obtained his first
had been made by a right hon. gentleman and highest remuneration. As to any
so remarkable for his eloquence, and services, the performance of which was
after the mode in which the distinguished within his reach, he would honestly state,
individual proposed had been designated that he attributed their success, not to
by him were he to make any attempt of any exertions he was capable of making,
the same kind, he should only succeed in but to that for which he was at all periods
makingconspicuous his own incompetence most thankful-the constant and cordial
to the undertaking; he would therefore co-operation of the House. Its indulgent
merely thank the House for the kindness assistance had been always ready, and it
with which it had already heard him, had ever shown a forbearing disinclination
adding, in conclusion, that, since he had to notice accidental mistakes, or to mark
been honoured with a seat in parliament, involuntary lapses, and a friendly de-
he had never voted with greater satisfac- termination to be satisfied with such ex-
tion than he should do on the present oc- ertions as its Speaker was competent to
casion, from a conviction that the indivi- make. The House would pardon him, if,
dual in question combined in his own in his anxiety to relieve them from
person, claims of every kind; and was the painful task of listening longer
not only most competent for his high to a subject, embarrassing, inasmuch as
office, but most acceptable to the it was personal, he contented himself
House. with adding, that he had no reliance
Mr. Manners Sutton rose amid the whatever on any pretensions of his own:
cheers of the House. He said, he hoped he would not deny that to secure the ap-
that neither the right hon. gentleman who probation of the House had been the
had moved his nomination in a manner so highest object of his ambition; and if it

APRIL 21, 1820. [6

Choice of a Speaker.

were again its pleasure to place him in the
dignified station of Speaker, the most lhe
could say, and the most he could do, was
to assure it, that his anxious and constant
exertions should be employed in its ser-
vice [Cheers].
The right hon. gentleman was then con-
ducted to the chair, between the mover
and seconder. Having taken his seat, he
again rose and observed, that it was quite
impossible for him to convey to the
House the deep sense he entertained of
the honour just conferred upon him.
After what had already fallen from him,
it would ill become him to attempt to
mislead the House by any assurance that
he could discharge the duties of the office
in which he was placed, with the abilities
they required: he must now, as hereto-
fore, implore the constant assistance and
kind indulgence of the House. He might,
however, without too much presumption,
ask credit for this assurance-that he
would discharge his duties honestly, with
the utmost zeal, and with the strictest im-
partiality [Continued cheers].
Lord Castlereagh said, that, in the situ-
ation in which the House now found it-
self, the only question that remained was
that of adjournment; but he hoped he
might be permitted, in the name of the
House, as well as for himself, to
offer his congratulation on the choice
that had just been made. From the
manner in which the proposition of
his right lion. friend had been received,
it was obvious that the House was anxi-
ous to bestow on the individual now ap-
pointed to preside over its discussions, the
highest mark of its approbation and confi-
dence; and there could be no such mark
in this free country more distinguished,
than that of being rendered the first com-
moner of the empire. It was undoubted-
ly a matter of proud satisfaction, that at
the period when the Speaker was placed
in the chair, all opinions were united in
his favour. He was sure that the House
would feel what had been already ob-
served, that, without touching upon the
peculiar importance of the times in
which we lived (and certainly that
man must take a very superficial view
of the condition of affairs who should
consider them but ordinary times),
the office of Speaker included many im-
portant duties connected with the jarring
interests of this mighty empire, while
parliament was devoting its attention to
promote its welfare and prosperity. It

Choice ofa Speaker. [8
was no small satisfaction to have now
placed in the chair an individual by gene-
ral consent so capable of fulfilling the
arduous task imposed upon him-so com-
petent to guide the House in its delibera-
tions-to preside over those discussions
in which the best interests of the state
were engaged with manly fortitude, and
to enforce with firmness and wisdom those
rules and forms so essential to the privi-
leges of parliament, and to the mainte-
nance of the real liberties of the subject.
Of the qualifications of the Speaker the
last parliament had enjoyed the benefit,
and he was most happy that they were to
be continued to the present [Hear]. He
would move, that the House do now ad-
Mr. Brougham, in the absence of those
more competent and more worthy gene-
rally to express the feelings of those who
sat on his side of the House, trusted that
it would not be thought presumptuous if
he added his testimony to that of the hon.
gentleman who had preceded him. He
took the liberty, therefore, to congratu-
late, first the Speaker, but most of all the
House itself, and not less the House than
the whole Commons of England, upon the
free choice which had now fallen, for the
third time, upon the same individual. He
was sure that he expressed only the gene-
ral sentiment in the wish that the Speaker
now elected might continue with the en-
joyment of health and long life to fill a
station equally necessary for the support
of the privileges of the House, and for
the preservation of the liberties of the
people at large; and the duties of which,
he grieved to say, by the common consent
of all, were not likely to be lightened. It
was a matter of most sincere congratula-
tion to the House and to the country,
that it had again the inestimable benefit
of having the chair filled by one who had
shown himself, in all the more important,
as well as in the less material parts of the
functions of his situation, eminently gifted
for their discharge; who had upon every
occasion proved that he was indeed the
depository of the truest dignity of the
House, by wearing the honours conferred
upon him both with firmness and meek-
ness. It formed one of his highest and
most essential titles to the office, that on
all necessary occasions he had evinced
the courage as well as the capacity to
protect the sacred privileges of the House
from infraction, under whatever pretext,
whether assaulted by lawless violence, or

9] Choice of a Speaker.
put to hazard by the more subtile at-
tempts of gradual encroachment.
The House then adjourned.

Saturday, April 22.
The deputy usher of the Black Rod
was sent to the House of Commons to
desire their attendance. Shortly after-
wards, the Speaker, followed by a great
number of other members, came to the
Mr. Manners Sutton said:-My lords,
I have the honour to announce to your
lordships, in the name of the House of
Commons of the United Kingdom of
Great Britain and Ireland, that his ma-
jesty's faithful Commons have proceeded
to the choice of a Speaker, and that that
choice has fallen upon me. I am fully
aware, my lords, of the arduous duties of
the situation to which 1 have thus been
chosen, and of my own insufficiency to
perform those duties. Should, however,
it be his majesty's pleasure to reject the
choice thus made by his faithful Com-
mons, it is consolatory to me to know
that there are many members of the
House much better qualified than myself
to fulfil the office of Speaker, upon any
one of whom their choice may most ad-
vantageously devolve.
The Lord Chancellor.-Mr. Manners
Sutton; his.majesty being fully aware of
your tried ability and zeal for the public
service, has commanded us to signify his
most gracious approbation of the choice
made by his faithful Commons of you to
be their Speaker.
The Speaker.-My lords, I humbly
submit myself to his majesty's most gra-
cious pleasure. It becomes, therefore,
my duty, in the name of his majesty's
faithful Commons, to claim their ancient
and undoubted privileges, namely, free-
dom from arrest and molestation for them-
selves, their servants and estates, freedom
of debate, and free access to his majesty
whenever occasion shall require it. I have
also, my lords, further to request, in the
name of his majesty's faithful Commons,
that the most favourable construction may
be put upon all their proceedings, and
that if any mistake should arise, it may
be imputed to me, and not to them.
The Lord Chancellor.-Mr. Speaker;
we have it in command from his majesty,
most graciously to allow to his faithful
Commons all the privileges and immuni-

APRIL 22, 1820. [10
ties, and that in the most full and ample
manner, which they enjoyed under any of
his predecessors ; and we have it further
in command from his majesty to declare
to you, that in every case the most fa-
vourable construction shall be put upon
the proceedings of his majesty's faithful
The Speaker and the members retired,
and the lords commissioners withdrew to
unrobe. On the return of the latter, the
lord chancellor took the woolsack, and
the oaths were administered to those lords
who came into the House.

Saturday, April 22.
The House met at two o'clock, and
was immediately after summoned by the
Black Rod to the House of Peers. On
their return,
The Speaker informed the House, that
they had been in the House of Peers,
where the commissioners, authorized by
his majesty's commission, had communi-
cated to him that his majesty had been
graciously pleased to approve of their
choice of him as Speaker. He had there-
upon immediately proceeded to claim for
them their ancient rights and privileges of
freedom of speech, freedom from arrest
for themselves and servants, free access to
the royal presence, &c. all of which his
majesty had been graciously pleased to
grant to them in as full and ample manner
as ever had been granted on any former
occasion. He must again express the
deep sense of gratitude which he felt to
the House for having thus conferred on
him this, the highest mark of confidence
in their power; and he must now implore
them to give him their constant support
to enable him to preserve their privileges,
which were not only theirs, but the privi-
leges of all the Commons of England.
He had also to entreat their constant and
unremitting support and assistance in pre-
serving the established rules and orders of
the House; not less necessary for the
preservation of decency and regularity in
their proceedings, than they were for the
convenient dispatch of business. It should
be his constant study so to discharge the
duties of his high situation as to give sa-
tisfaction to the House, and in such a
manner as should be most useful to the
public, and conducive to his own honour.
The first business which gentlemen had
now to attend to, was, to take the several

9] Choice of a Speaker.
put to hazard by the more subtile at-
tempts of gradual encroachment.
The House then adjourned.

Saturday, April 22.
The deputy usher of the Black Rod
was sent to the House of Commons to
desire their attendance. Shortly after-
wards, the Speaker, followed by a great
number of other members, came to the
Mr. Manners Sutton said:-My lords,
I have the honour to announce to your
lordships, in the name of the House of
Commons of the United Kingdom of
Great Britain and Ireland, that his ma-
jesty's faithful Commons have proceeded
to the choice of a Speaker, and that that
choice has fallen upon me. I am fully
aware, my lords, of the arduous duties of
the situation to which 1 have thus been
chosen, and of my own insufficiency to
perform those duties. Should, however,
it be his majesty's pleasure to reject the
choice thus made by his faithful Com-
mons, it is consolatory to me to know
that there are many members of the
House much better qualified than myself
to fulfil the office of Speaker, upon any
one of whom their choice may most ad-
vantageously devolve.
The Lord Chancellor.-Mr. Manners
Sutton; his.majesty being fully aware of
your tried ability and zeal for the public
service, has commanded us to signify his
most gracious approbation of the choice
made by his faithful Commons of you to
be their Speaker.
The Speaker.-My lords, I humbly
submit myself to his majesty's most gra-
cious pleasure. It becomes, therefore,
my duty, in the name of his majesty's
faithful Commons, to claim their ancient
and undoubted privileges, namely, free-
dom from arrest and molestation for them-
selves, their servants and estates, freedom
of debate, and free access to his majesty
whenever occasion shall require it. I have
also, my lords, further to request, in the
name of his majesty's faithful Commons,
that the most favourable construction may
be put upon all their proceedings, and
that if any mistake should arise, it may
be imputed to me, and not to them.
The Lord Chancellor.-Mr. Speaker;
we have it in command from his majesty,
most graciously to allow to his faithful
Commons all the privileges and immuni-

APRIL 22, 1820. [10
ties, and that in the most full and ample
manner, which they enjoyed under any of
his predecessors ; and we have it further
in command from his majesty to declare
to you, that in every case the most fa-
vourable construction shall be put upon
the proceedings of his majesty's faithful
The Speaker and the members retired,
and the lords commissioners withdrew to
unrobe. On the return of the latter, the
lord chancellor took the woolsack, and
the oaths were administered to those lords
who came into the House.

Saturday, April 22.
The House met at two o'clock, and
was immediately after summoned by the
Black Rod to the House of Peers. On
their return,
The Speaker informed the House, that
they had been in the House of Peers,
where the commissioners, authorized by
his majesty's commission, had communi-
cated to him that his majesty had been
graciously pleased to approve of their
choice of him as Speaker. He had there-
upon immediately proceeded to claim for
them their ancient rights and privileges of
freedom of speech, freedom from arrest
for themselves and servants, free access to
the royal presence, &c. all of which his
majesty had been graciously pleased to
grant to them in as full and ample manner
as ever had been granted on any former
occasion. He must again express the
deep sense of gratitude which he felt to
the House for having thus conferred on
him this, the highest mark of confidence
in their power; and he must now implore
them to give him their constant support
to enable him to preserve their privileges,
which were not only theirs, but the privi-
leges of all the Commons of England.
He had also to entreat their constant and
unremitting support and assistance in pre-
serving the established rules and orders of
the House; not less necessary for the
preservation of decency and regularity in
their proceedings, than they were for the
convenient dispatch of business. It should
be his constant study so to discharge the
duties of his high situation as to give sa-
tisfaction to the House, and in such a
manner as should be most useful to the
public, and conducive to his own honour.
The first business which gentlemen had
now to attend to, was, to take the several

11l HOUSE OF LORDS, The King's Speech on Opening the Session. [12

oaths of supremacy, abjuration, &c. indis-
pensably necessary to qualify them to take
their seats.
The Speaker then proceeded to take
the oaths himself, and was followed by
numerous other members.

Thursday, April 27.
SESSION.] This day his majesty came
in state to the House of Peers, and being
seated on the throne, the gentleman usher
of the Black Rod was directed to summon
the Commons to attend. The Speaker
immediately obeyed the summons, and
presented himself at the bar, attended by
more than one hundred members. His
majesty then delivered the following most
gracious Speech to both Houses:
My Lords and Gentlemen;
I have taken the earliest occasion of
assembling you here, after having recurred
to the sense of my people.
In meeting you personally for the
first time since the death of my beloved
father, I am anxious to assure you, that
I shall always continue to imitate his
great example, in unceasing attention to
the public interests, and in paternal soli-
citude for the welfare and happiness of
all classes of my subjects.
1 have received from foreign powers
renewed assurances of their friendly dis-
position, and of their earnest desire to
cultivate with me the relations of peace
and amity.
"Gentlemen of the House of Commons;
The estimates for the present year
will be laid before you.
They have been framed upon prin-
ciples of strict economy; but it is to me
matter of the deepest regret that the
state of the country has not allowed me
to dispense with those additions to our
military force which I announced at the
commencement of the last session of par-
The first object to which your atten-
tion will be directed is the provision to
be made for the support of the civil go-

vernment, and of the honour and dignity
of the Crown.
1 leave entirely at your disposal my
interest in the hereditary revenues: and
I cannot deny myself the gratification of
declaring, that so far from desiring any
arrangement which might lead to the im-
position of new burthens upon my peo-
ple, or even might diminish, on my ac-
count, the amount of the reductions in-
cident to my accession to the throne, I
can have no wish, under circumstances
like the present, that any addition what-
ever should be made to the Settlement
adopted by parliament in the year 1816.
My Lords and Gentlemen ;
Deeply as I regret that the machi-
nations and designs of the disaffected
should have led, in some parts of the
country, to acts of open violence and
insurrection, I cannot but express my
satisfaction at the promptitude with
which those attempts have been sup-
pressed by the vigilance and activity of
the magistrates, and by the zealous co-
operation of all those of my subjects
whose exertions have been called forth
to support the authority of the laws.
The wisdom and firmness manifested
by the late parliament, and the due exe-
cution of the laws, have greatly contri-
buted to restore confidence throughout
the kingdom; and to discountenance
those principles of sedition and irreligion
which had been disseminated with such
malignant perseverance, and had poisoned
the minds of the ignorant and unwary.
I rely upon the continued support of
parliament in my determination to main-
tain, by all the means intrusted to my
hands, the public safety and-tranquillity.
Deploring, as we all must, the dis.
tress which still unhappily prevails among
many of the labouring classes of the
community, and anxiously looking for-
ward to its removal or mitigation, it is
in the mean time our common duty,
effectually to protect the loyal, the
peaceable, and the industrious, against

APRIL 27, 1820. [14

those practices of turbulence and intimi-
dation, by which the period of relief
can only be deferred, and by which the
pressure of the distress has been incal-
culably aggravated.
I trust that an awakened sense of
the dangers which they have incurred,
and of the arts which have been employed
to seduce them, will bring back by far
the greater part of those who have been
unhappily led astray, and will revive in
them that spirit of loyalty, that due
submission to the laws, and that attach-
ment to the constitution, which subsist
unabated in the hearts of the great body
of the people, and which, under the
blessing of Divine Providence, have se-
cured to the British nation the enjoy-
ment of a larger share of practical free-
dora, as well as of prosperity and happi-
ness, than have fallen to the lot of any
nation in the world."
His majesty then retired, and the Com-
mons returned to their House.

majesty's most gracious speech having
been again read by the lord chancellor,
and also by the reading clerk at the table,
Lord Viscount Granville rose to move
an address of thanks. The noble lord
said, that being of late not much accustom-
ed to public speaking, he felt considerable
embarrassment in addressing their lord-
ships on the present occasion, and that
embarrassment could not fail to be increas-
ed when he considered how many noble
lords there were now around him who
were far better qualified than himself to
do justice to the task he had undertaken;
but it was at the same time highly satis-
factory to him, while performing this duty,
to reflect, that the speech which had, on
this important occasion, been delivered
from the throne, was one the language of
which was of a nature almost to preclude
discussion; and that the sentiments of
the address he was about to move, were
such as must necessarily command the ge-
neral, he might say the unanimous, concur-
rence of their lordships. This considera-
tion was more peculiarly satisfactory at
the present moment, for there never was
a period when it was of so much import-

ance for both Houses of Parliament-to show
unanimity in their devotion to the throne,
and attachment to the institutions of the
country; and the spirit by which they
were animated would be best proved by
abstaining from introducing topics calcu-
lated to create division. The occasion on
which he addressed their lordships was
most important, whether considered as the
commencement of a new era or the close
of one that had passed. In looking back
to the history of the country under his late
majesty, they beheld a period marked by
various and important vicissitudes. The
annals of the late reign afforded more his-
torical lessons than those of preceding
centuries. In them their lordships might
learn what ought to be avoided, and what
it was fit to imitate. They would see how,
in another country, an event which had
commenced with appeals to philanthropy
and humanity had soon changed to anar-
chy and bloodshed, and had finally termi-
nated in a military despotism. This ex-
ample warned them carefully to maintain
the constitution from which theyhadderived
such benefits. He was old enough to re-
member the time when the people of this
country were instigated to imitate France;
and the spirit which then prevailed was of
such a nature, that it justly excited alarm.
He who now wore the crown of these
realms, notwithstanding there were among
his earliest friends some who held opinions
different from his, was among the first to
give to the measures of government the
support of his name and authority. His
great example was followed by the most
distinguished men of that day, and by the
great majority of the country. The con-
sequence was, that discontents were sup-
pressed, and the designs of the disaffected
were defeated. It was with great proprie-
ty, then, that they were this day called
upon by the crown to imitate this exam-
ple, and to discountenance those princi-
ples of sedition and irreligion which had
been disseminated with such malignant
perseverance, and had poisoned the minds
of the ignorant and the unwary, and of the
fatal effecs of which their lordships had
already had so much experience. The
danger of the country in those times was
not, however, completely removed by the
defeat of the internal enemies of the con-
stitution. The great military power of
France formed a most formidable external
danger, and threatened the country with
invasion. France being at last enabled to
command the resources of almost all the

Add 1ess on the King's Speech.

countries of Europe, and to bring them
against Great Britain, the contest became
most arduous, and the difficulties were
such as could only have been overcome by
a people fully sensible of the advantages
of the constitution under which they lived,
and resolved to sacrifice every thing in
its support. It must, however, be admit-
ted, that the exertions made by the coun-
try were almost beyond its means. The
effects of the exhausting efforts which were
made during the war were now severely
felt. While the contest continued no dis-
tress was experienced, because, from the
manner in which the contest was carried
on, it secured to this country a commer-
cial monopoly. Thus, the means of carry-
ing on the war increased with the progress
of hostilities; but the growth ofcommerce,
and the extent to which it was pushed,
created a mass of manufacturing popula-
tion, for which it was impossible to find
employment on the restoration of peace.
To the embarrassment occasioned by this
state of things was to be added that arising
from the number of men discharged from
thearmy and the navy. These men, accus-
tomed to warfare, were not disposed to
suffer privations quietly, and all their habits
prepared them for taking part in the scenes
of turbulence which had agitated the coun-
try. To remove the difficulties arising
from these circumstances was obviously
one of the most important, and, at the
same time, one of the most difficult prob-
lems that could be submitted for legisla.
tion; but, in whatever extent the distress
of the country might exist, it certainly
was not by seducing the poor from their
daily labour, and by sowing sedition among
the lower orders, that a cure could be ob-
tained. Attheendof thelast century, when
the demand for labour far exceeded the
supply, the labourer not only obtained high-
er wages than formerly, but, comparatively
speaking, had it in his power to enjoy
luxuries. It was not then surprisingthat the
labourer should severely feel the difference
which the change of circumstances had
produced in his situation. It was there-
fore matter of compassion rather than of
anger, that men so situated, and necessa-
rily ignorant with regard to great questions
of policy, should be disposed to attribute
their sufferings to causes quite foreign to
the real ones, and should wish to resort to
remedies incapable of affording them any
relief.-There was another circumstance
which distinguished the present from all
former periods, and which could not be

Address on the Kingp' Speech [ !6
overlooked in any view of the state of the
country-he meant the great diffusion of
education. This was regarded as one of
the greatest advantages of the present age;
but, in making this admission, it must at
the same time be allowed, that it afforded
an opportunity for the dissemination of
dangerous doctrines; and when men in a
state of the greatest distress were daily
told that all their sufferings were owing to
the government, and that its overthrow
would relieve them, they must be sanguine
indeed who could suppose that the con-
stant inculcation of such doctrines made
no impression. This state of things doubt-
less occupied the attention of government,
and he hoed that, in the application of
the law to the correction of the evil, a
broad distinction would always be made
between the deluded and the deluders. It
was the indispensable duty of those who
administered the government, first to se-
cure the safety of the state and maintain
its tranquillity; but, having accomplished
that great object, it became next their
duty to discriminate between the parties
by whom the safety of the state had been
endangered.-His majesty had informed
parliament that he had received renewed
assurances of the friendly dispositions of
foreign powers. Their lordships had,
therefore, no reason to apprehend any fo-
reign war. Still, however, it was impos-
sible not to perceive that the continent of
Europe was far from being in a settled
state. In the events which had recently
taken place there was a conflict between
good and evil; and, upon the whole, they
were of a nature which did not permit the
statesman or the philosopher to contem-
plate the result without apprehension.-
Their lordships' prayers would doubtless
be for the establishment of a well-ordered
system of liberty; but if, instead of that,
anarchy or civil war should unhappily be
inflicted, he trusted that the consequences
of such a state of things would not reach
this country. While freed from apprehen-
sion with regard to our foreign relations, it
was satisfactory to be informed, in the
speech from the throne, that the country
was not to be called upon for any fresh
burdens, not even for any thing towards
the maintenance of that civil establish-
ment which they were always bound to
support in a manner becoming the dignity
and honour of the crown. The speech
from the throne, while deploring the dis-
tress of the country, looked forward to it.
removal. It certainly was not reasonable

DEC. 27, 1820. [18

to expect that trade should again be car-
ried on to the extent in which it existed
during the late war. Our monopoly had
ceased, and it was now our well-understood
interest, that every nation should have its
share in the commerce of the world; and
one effect of the peace, he hoped, would
be to produce a more equal and liberal re-
ciprocation of commercial advantages.-
The great difficulty which opposed the
accomplishment of this important object
existed in our restrictive laws, the opera-
tion of which had been on a former occa-
sion described to their lordships by a noble
baron whom he did not now see in his
place. Still, however, he was not without
hope that some alteration would be made
in that system of prohibitions by which
commercial enterprise was so severely
checked. He was not fond of legislating
on such subjects, but he could not help
expressing his conviction, that the revival
of manufactures would soon be followed
by a flourishing state of agriculture; for
their interests were inseparable. He
should now conclude, satisfied that, while
their lordships looked forward to better
prospects, and recollected the great exam-
ples of the late reign, they would feel the
necessity, as members of parliament, of
discharging one common duty, by drawing
closer the bonds which unite the sovereign
and the people. With that view he moved
the address.-His lordship then read the
address, which repeated, as usual, the sen-
timents of the speech.
Lord Howard of Effingham rose to se-
cond it. The noble lord alluded particu-
larly to that part of the speech which re-
lated to the distress of the country, and
the necessity of protecting the loyal and
peaceable against the effect of those prin-
ciples of sedition and irreligion which led
to riot and disturbance, by taking advan-
tage of the irritation which that distress
created. It was not strange, he said, that
severe distress should be felt, when the
fluctuation of our commerce and industry
were considered. At one time we had
nearly the commerce of the world, and our
population was fully employed in branches
ofindustry, eitherforthe supply ofdomestic
or foreign demand. Now that commerce
was much reduced by being shared among
other nations, and our manufacturers and
artisans were thrown out of work. They
were consequently reduced to a state of
poverty, and became an easy prey to the
arts of the designing and the wicked. But,
from whatever cause disaffection arose,

the peaceable, the loyal, and the industri-
ous, must be protected in their persons
and property from its violence. He trust-
ed that, by the firmness of the constituted
authorities, the turbulent and seditious
would be restrained, and the dissemination
of their pernicious doctrines prevented.-
Those who had been deluded would, he
hoped, then return to their former habits
of industry, which would be found not
only beneficial to themselves, but condu-
cive to the interest and tranquillity of the
state. At the same time it was to be
dreaded, that many, who could not plead
distress as the cause of their discon-
tent, entertained designs against our
constitution which must be resisted and
put down, and were making endeavours to
realize schemes of government which must
be strenuously opposed. The people of
this country would never yield to designs
of this kind. If their authors endeavour-
ed to intimidate the authorities, and to
drive some part of the people to violence,
he trusted their designs would be frus-
trated and destroyed by the loyalty and
good sense of the great body of the na-
tion, and that the government, supported
by all classes of men, would preserve un-
impaired our excellent constitution and in-
valuable privileges.
Earl Grosvenor said, that in speeches
from the throne, at the commencement
of a new session of parliament, it was
generally thought proper to include a
view of the system which ministers meant
to pursue for the year; and it was a ge-
neral practice, in those opposed to them,
to enter into a discussion or consideration
of all the topics so introduced. But on
such an occasion as the present, at the
commencement of a new reign-when his
majesty had been in the House for the
first time since his accession-when he
had addressed to their lordships his first
speech-it was desirable to avoid the in-
troduction or the discussion of any sub-
jects which might lead to a difference of
opinion. Although, therefore, he felt,
that at other times it was proper to discuss
the topics of speeches from the throne, to
whatever difference of opinion they might
lead, he was glad that such a course was
not necessary now. It was in every re-
spect to be wished that the first address
to the throne from the first parliament of
his majesty's reign should be adopted
unanimously; and, to be unanimous, it
was desirable that no discussion should
be provoked on subjects likely to create

st the Opening of the Session.

disunion. Entertaining this wish, he
must give ministers praise for the manner
in which they had worded the speech.
They had abstained from the mention of
any topics that were likely to divide the
House. Therefore, as the speech and
the address were such as to meet with
his general approbation, he should have
great satisfaction in saying content."
He could have wished that the speeches
of the noble mover and seconder had as
studiously abstained from all subjects
likely to create a difference of opinion.
But it seemed to him, that his noble
friend who moved the address had gone
out of the natural track of the speech to
find topics ofdifference. He agreed with
his noble friend in' some parts of what he
had said; but from other parts of his
observations he entirely dissented. This
was not the occasion, however, for the
discussion of those points of difference;
and the same motive which induced him
to wish for unanimity in the address
would prevent him from introducing op-
position in the debate. He could not,
however, let one remark of his noble
friend pass, without expressing his dissent
from the principle which it implied. He
could never admit the truth of-the in-
sinuation, that the diffusion of education
among all ianks of the community could
be dangerous to any, or that a system of
education like that followed generally in
this country could be pernicious, or could
create mischief. Although the speech
from the throne alluded only generally to
our foreign relations, and mentioned no
nation in particular, his noble friend had,
in a qualified manner, adverted to the
late events in Spain, he could not, there-
fore let the opportunity slip of express-
ing, in a more unreserved manner, his
great satisfaction at the glorious revolu-
tion which had taken place in that coun-
try. Knowing that Spain was once a
great, an enterprising, and a victorious
nation; knowing that its resources had
been dried up, and its energies repressed,
by the accumulated evils of tyranny,
priestcraft, and superstition, and expect.
ing from the late changes a revival of its
ancient splendor, he could not but re-
joice at the issue of the late events, sc
creditable to those engaged in them.
The Marquis of Lansdowne said, thai
he looked with sincere satisfaction to the
course which had been pursued, and the
result to which their lordships were likely
to come. For, /whether he considered

Address on the King's Speech [20
the nature of the topics introduced into
the speech from the throne-whether he
considered that this was the first time that
his majesty had addressed their lordships
in this House-or whether he adverted to
the various important and painful cir-
cumstances connected with the situation
of the country, and recent events-he
saw abundant reason for wishing as great
unanimity as possible to prevail on the
present occasion. He therefore solemnly
declared that he felt the greatest satisfac-
tion in being able to concur in the speech
and the address, and in not being com-
pelled, from duty or policy, to make the
least opposition to it. His uniform pri-
vate sentiment, and constant public de-
claration, being, that as great a practical
retrenchment of our expenditure, and as
economical a management of our.finances
as possible, were the only source of re-
lief to the country-that they would con-
stitute, if not a remedy for the public dis-
tress, at least an alleviation of its pressure
-that they formed at least a line of con-
duct, which, whether it sensibly ameli-
orated their condition or not, the people
had a right to expect from their govern-
ment, out of respect to their feelings-
that their rulers could only obtain their
cordiality and support by making such
endeavours for their satisfaction ;-such,
he said, being his sentiments, so long
cherished and so maturely considered, it
was with peculiar pleasure that he saw a
disposition to set a noble example from
the throne, of that economy which
he had recommended an example
which he hoped would be followed as
zealously, as sincerely, and as extensively
as possible by the king's ministers in all
the other branches of the public expendi-
ture. They ought to follow up such an
example in the true spirit of it; and, if
they did not wish to do so, he hoped that
Parliament would compel them. By such
conduct, by a careful attention to the dis-
tresses of the people, and a zealous en-
Sdeavour to reduce their burthens, the
ministers and the legislature would do
more to recall them to their duty, to allay
Their discontents, to secure their obedi-
Sence, and to ensure their cordial co-ope-
o ration in maintaining peace and tranquil-
lity, than all the restrictive measures
Which the House could enact, than all
Sthe privations or suspensions of liberty
Which they could inflict. He had heard
With great satisfaction many of the ob-
Sservations of his noble friend who had

APRIL 27, 1820. [22

moved the address, and most cordially
concurred in most of them; and, with-
out following him in some of his specu-
lations, he would merely say, that he con-
curred with him in his prospective system,
especially with regard to our foreign re-
lations. These he had truly described
as too uncertain in their issue to be the
foundation of any distant hope; but he
joined with his noble friend in the firm
expectation and belief, that nothing which
had occurred, nothing which was likely
to occur, could for some time to come
disturb those relations of peace and ami-
ty which were so necessary to promote
the general interest, happiness, and pros-
perity of nations, and to heal the wounds
which a protracted war had inflicted on
Europe. In alluding to Spain, his
noble friend who had moved the ad-
dress, and his noble friend who spoke
last, had used language somewhat dif-
ferent. His noble friend who had spoken
last called the issue of the late events in
that country a glorious revolution, and
his noble friend opposite had described
the changes going forward as a conflict
between good and evil. When he thus
described the late changes as painful in
their progress and uncertain in their issue,
* he must remind his noble friend, that this
conflict between good and evil was occa-
sioned by the long prevalence of evil;
that it was caused by bad government;
that the abuses of power led to the ne-
cessity of change; and that, if that
change was attended with uncertainty
and danger, it ought to teach a lesson to
sovereigns not to create the necessity,
and to subjects not to hazard it unneces-
sarily. The people of this country
ought to learn from it not to run the risk
of changes that must be attended with
danger, and perhaps followed by despo-
tism; while we enjoyed amid our dis-
tresses a great portion of practical free-
dom, while we had an equal administra-
tion of wise laws, and while we possessed
a constitution, which, though it might
contract blemishes or acquire defects by
time and neglect, might by its own ope-
ration be brought back to its first princi-
ples of purity, without shock or commo-
tion, and which constituted our present
happiness and future security. In
that part of his noble friend's speech
which referred to another topic connected
with our foreign relations, he cordially
concurred-a topic which was not ad-
verted to'in the speech from the throne,

but which his noble friend could not pass
unnoticed-he meant a relaxation of our
restrictive system as it regarded foreign
commerce. He sincerely hoped that our
prohibitory system would soon be brought
under the view of the legislature. It was
a subject which he had much at heart,
and which he had often intended to bring
forward. That it might now obtain the
attention of government and of the legis-
lature, would be to him a solid satisfac-
tion, and, he was convinced, would give
satisfaction to the country. But while he
thus expressed his expectation along with
his noble friend-while he indulged this
hope-a hope entertained and indulged
by others, it ought to be recollected, that
great firmness would be necessary to
effect any change-that the application of
general principles to our system of com-
merce must be a work of great delicacy
and difficulty-that many partial interests
must be encountered as obstacles, and
that much immediate and partial distress
must be incurred to establish a broad, ge-
neral, and permanent system of national
advantage and commercial freedom. To
effect this, nearly as much courage and
firmness would be requisite as in encoun-
tering the other difficulties of the country.
Firmness, however, for that duty, he
hoped, would not be wanting in the king's
ministers-firmness, he hoped, would not
be wanting in the legislature; and he
pledged himself, whenever the subject of
a relaxation of commercial restrictions-a
great relaxation-was brought forward,
he would lend it his utmost support.
Some inquiry-some step in this im-
portant business-could not much longer
be delayed; it must come before parlia-
ment, and he hoped ministers had made
up their minds, as he had made up his.
He agreed with his noble friend, that the
magistrates of the country had on late oc-
casions discharged their duty manfully,
firmly, and ably; and he might add, still
more the juries. He was the more ir.-
duced to mention them with merited
praise, as not many months ago it had
been said in that House, that they were
reluctant to give verdicts; and it had
been insinuated that they favoured the
bad principles of which they would not
authorize the punishment. They had
nobly replied to that insinuation. He
meant to allude to no particular verdict
when he said that they had shown them-
selves equally unawed by the power of
the Crown or the influence of popular

at the Op~ening Vthte Session..

feeling. He was the more disposed to thatstrictadherencetotheprinciplesofeco-
mention this circumstance with satisfac- nomy were togovern his majesty's councils,
tion, as on the due execution of the office principles which would afford the best se-
of the jury depended our civil privileges, curity for the government and the people.
the confidence of the middle classes of In looking at this part of his majesty's
the people (classes which generally re- most gracious speech, it was a great sa-
mained, he would say, untainted by those tisfaction to find that the address was una-
pernicious doctrines which were said to be nimous.-Having said thus much, he did
diffused among them) in the administra- not wish to detain their lordships by go-
tion of the laws, and the protection of ing into the other topics which had been
those rights and privileges which, accord- noticed in the speeches of the noble earl
ing to the expression of the speech from and marquis opposite; but he was anxious
the throne, have secured to the British to correct a mistake into which a noble
nation the enjoyment of a larger share of lord had fallen, relative to what had been
practical freedom, as well as of prospe- observed by his noble friend on the sub-
rity and happiness than has fallen to the ject of the general education of the lower
lot of any nation in the world." The orders. He had understood his noble
noble marquis concluded by giving his friend to have said, that general education
concurrence to the address, was a great national blessing, but that, in
The Earl of Liverpool said, he hoped proportion as it was general, care should
their lordships would excuse him if he tres- be taken that it was guided by sound prin-
passed on their attention for a short time. ciples, lest, by a deviation from those
After the manner in which the address principles, that which was calculated to
had been moved by his noble friend-after be a blessing might be made a curse and a
the speech in which it had been seconded; great national evil.-Of the situation in
andafter themannerin which the two noble which we stood with respect to foreign
lords opposite had concurredinthe address, powers he would not then speak, further
he trusted he should not be considered as than to say, that nothing was more im-
rising on this occasion to detain them for portant in our present circumstances, or
more than a few moments. He could as- in any circumstances, than that we should
sure their lordships it was not his intention be on terms of strict friendship with other
to bring before them any topic which nations-that we should adopt a real paci-
could create a difference of opinion, or fic system in all our relations with those
which could tend to prevent that unani- powers. As to what was passing in some
mity so desirable at the present moment. of the countries of Europe, though it
That unanimity must be desirable to their might be important, it was not, he consi-
lordships, from every circumstance con. dered, a fit subject for discussion then.
nected with the business of the day. This The noble marquis had made an allusion
was the first occasion that they had met to the state of our commerce with respect
their sovereign in that House, and it was to some prohibitory laws which had, for
most desirable that their lordships should a considerable time, been acted upon,
be unanimous in going up to him with an and which at present formed a part of
address of thanks for his most gracious our commercial code. On this subject a
speech. But when they looked at the great deal more might be said than would
tenour of that speech-when they view- be consistent with the discussion of that
ed that part where the illustrious indivi- evening. He did not, therefore, intend
dual was personally concerned-he was to enter upon it. But, though at present
satisfied they would take that opportunity he would abstain from it, he could assure
of going up with the address with un- their lordships that it was a matter upon
animity and gratitude for the gracious sen- which he was by no means indisposed to
timents which he had expressed. The enter on a proper occasion. It was one
noble lord who moved the address had well to which he and others of his majesty's
said, that his majesty had that day given a ministers had given no inconsiderable de-
proof of magnanimous disinterestedness in gree of attention. His own opinions upon
every thing which concerned himself. This it were well known to many most respecta-
was important in itself, as it was calcu- ble individuals in the city, and he should
lated to rivet him in the affections of his i be prepared to declare them to their lord-
people; it was important, as it afforded an 'ships whenever a fit occasion offered. At
excellent example to those who were under the same time he wished to guard their
himn-and it was important, as it showed lordships, and those more immediately

Address on thke Kinlg's Speech


25] at the Opening of the Session. APRIL 27, 1820. [26
concerned, from any delusion on the sub- nishment which they had incurred by their
ject. As to whether more good or more offnces. The integrity of that order was
evil resulted from the operation of the of great importance to all governments;
present system, he would not now say ; but it was particularly of importance to
but perhaps, in some of the general prin- ours, where, if we had any advantage
ciples respecting it, he did not differ from above other nations, and we had many, the
the noble marquis, though they might chief advantage was, that the due admi-
not agree in the minor detail. Not that nistration of the laws rested in a main de-
by this he meant to convey that some- gree upon those who constituted so large a
thing might not be done, and some altera- portion of the political society. After
tions might not be made ; but their lord- apologizing for having occupied so much
ships would admit that it was a subject of their time, the noble earl concluded by
which should be approached coolly and dis- congratulating the House upon the pros-
passionately, and that too much should not pect of perfect unanimity on the present
be expected from its first agitation. There occasion.
was only one other topic on which he was Lord Hollandsaid,he was very unwilling
disposed to trouble their lordships-it was to detain their lordships at the present mo-
with respect to the administration of the ment, and in the few observations which
laws, and the distinction which should he should offer he would abstain from
be made between those who were wil- every topic which might tend to disturb
fully guilty, and those who were only de- the unanimity of the House; but if he
luded by the artifices of others. He concurred, as he was certainly disposed to
hoped it would be found that this was the do, in this address, he must not be sup-
policy which his majesty's government posed to pay any compliment to the wis-
intended to pursue. He trusted that, in dom and energy of thelast parliament, or
looking at the disturbances which had to retract any thing which had been said
arisen in places where distress was known on certain subjects by noble lords on his
to exist, it would be found that, of those side of the House. He conceived that
engaged in them, there were men, aye, some of the last acts of the late parlia-
and bodies of men, who had been deluded ment had been productive of nothing but
into those practices, and had not been mischief; and, if there was any improve-
guilty in the first instance. He hoped, nent visible in the country since then,
also, that the same feeling which should which he hoped might be found to be the
urge the punishment of those who were case, it was by no means to be attributed
really guilty, would induce them to allow to the operation of those acts. With
for the delusion into which others had these reservations he would support the
been led, and that their lordships would motion.
agree in the policy of bringing them back The address was then put, and carried
to a sense of that duty from which they nem. diss.
had been induced to swerve. The no-
ble marquis had alluded to another and a PETITION OF THE REV. MR. JONES.]
great subject-the issue of the late trials Lord Holland gave notice, that he would
in several parts of the country. Hewas un- take an early opportunity of presenting a
willing to mix up any topicsin the discus- petition to the House, affecting in an es-
sion which might detract from the un- special manner the interests of the bene-
animity so desirable on the present oc- ficed clergy. It related, too, very parti-
casion; but he trusted he might be allow- cularly to three right reverend lords in
ed to congratulate their lordships on the the House. He should be happy to hear
result of those trials in one respect-on from any of the learned prelates, when it
that respect for its laws, which had been would be convenient for them to attend
evinced by the middle orders. The con- to the subject.
duct of the juries had shown, that what- The Bishop of Exeter said, that any
ever extent the influence of delusion time would be equally convenient to him.
might have been supposed to reach, that -Lord Holland accordingly fixed upon
order was still attached to the laws and to-morrow se'nnight; and their lordships
constitution of the country; they had were ordered to be summoned.
proved themselves determined to do their
duty, and to persist, in spite of violence HOUSE OF COMM ON S.
intimidation, and threats, to bring of- Thursday, April 27.
fenders against thelaw to the condign pu- ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH AT

Speaker acquainted the House that that
House had been in the House of Peers,
where His Majesty had delivered a most
gracious Speech to both Houses of Par-
liament, and of which, to prevent mistakes,
he had obtained a copy. [See p. 11.]
After the Speaker had read the Speech,
Sir Edward Knatchbull rose. He said,
he should take the liberty of directing the
attention of the House to the gracious
speech which they had heard, for the
purpose of proposing such an address to
his majesty as should accord with their
feelings of loyalty, and their affectionate
regret for the loss of his late majesty;
and therefore he hoped, such an address
as would be unanimously sanctioned by
both sides of the House. In discharging
this duty he should have occasion to refer
to various topics, and he felt that his best
claim to the indulgence of the House
would be the assurance that he should
not encroach at any great length on their
attention. On the present occasion he
felt particularly anxious that the address
which he was about to propose should be
adopted by an unanimous vote of the
House. The recent accession of his ma-
jesty, and this being the first opportunity
he had had of meeting his parliament,
were, in his mind, grounds of very consi-
derable weight; and, in the present situa-
tion of the country, an address from par-
liament in favour of its established govern-
ment was of material importance. When
he spoke of the government of the coun-
try, he of course did not mean the per-
sons by whom the functions of govern-
ment were discharged, but the constitu-
tion of the country itself. In the address
which he was about to submit to the con-
sideration of the House, nothing of a poli-
tical nature would be found to militate
against the attainment of that unanimity
which was so desirable. On looking for-
ward to the course which ministers might
be about to adopt, he meant not to pledge
himself, much less the House, if it should
agree to this address, to support any par-
ticular measures. He could, with great
truth, state to the House, that if, in mov-
ing this address, he had considered that
he was compromising the principle of any
measure that might be afterwards brought
forward, he would not have been found to
discharge that duty. Before he proceed-
ed to the consideration of the principal
points in the speech which they had heard
read, it would not be right if he did not

Address on the King's Speech [28
advert to the reign which had closed, and
to the exalted character of the deceased
monarch. At no period had greater
events occurred, nor had the nation ever
stood on higher ground than during his
reign. No doubt there had existed much
difference of opinion on the various mea-
sures pursued through so long a period of
time ; nor would he allude to events still
fresh in their memories, the mention of
which might produce discussion, which, at
present, was not desirable. But he was
sure that the personal character of his
majesty was a source of the greatest sa-
tistaction to the House and to the whole
of the nation. During a longer reign
than any recorded in the annals of this
country, his late majesty evinced an anxi.
ous and parental care for the welfare of
his subjects, which justly entitled him to
the appellation of the father of his people.
That his successor, to whom he sincerely
wished a long and prosperous reign, would
follow so bright an example, they had no
reason to doubt. They had heard his
majesty that day express his anxiety for
the welfare and happiness of his people;
and that declaration, he hoped, the House
would receive as they ought. He should
now call their attention, as briefly as pos-
sible, to the principal topics to which his
majesty, in his speech, had adverted.
And, first, he sincerely congratulated the
House on the stability of the friendly
connexion between this country and fo-
reign states. After the exertions which
we had made, during a long and arduous
war, they had heard from the throne the
gratifying declaration, that foreign powers
were anxious to cultivate the relations of
peace with this country. It must be a
source of satisfaction both to parliament
and to the country at large, to reflect
that, after all the sacrifices which we had
made, we had secured not only our own
independence, but the respect and confi-
dence of foreign nations. The next point
of the speech involved a subject which
more immediately related to the House of
Commons-the finances of the country.
They were told, and the assurance gave
him great satisfaction, that the estimates
for the public service of the year would
be speedily laid before the House, and
that they had been formed on the strict-
est principles of economy. They were
told that a large military force was still
kept up, and that the state of the coun-
try did not render it advisable to dispense
with those additions which had been made

APRIL 27, 1820. [30

it in the last session of parliament. In
tis necessity he also concurred; for he
ras convinced that the present military
establishment was indispensably requisite
to the safety of the country. But, what-
ever opinions might be entertained on
this subject, he was sure the House would
agree to give that support to government
which the safety of the country required.
It was, however, the bounden duty of the
House to look at the pressure under which
the country at present laboured. He
spoke as the representative of a large and
populous county, and to this principle he
looked in supporting the measures of go-
vernment. At the commencement of a
new reign they were called upon to sup-
port the dignity of the Crown, as well as
to keep up the civil list; and he hoped
the House would have no difficulty in as-
suring his majesty, that they would make
the requisite provision for this purpose,
especially as his majesty had declared that
he resigned entirely to their disposal his
interest in the hereditary revenues. His
majesty, in making this declaration, had
also told them, that no additional expen-
diture on this ground would be necessary;
and this declaration he considered highly
satisfactory, not only because it showed
his majesty's anxious desire to relieve the
burthens of his people by every personal
sacrifice in his power, but because it prov-
ed that a report which had lately been
circulated was destitute of all foundation
in truth. He alluded to a report-he
knew not with whom it had originated, or
from what motives it had been circulated
-that in the course of the first week after
the meeting of parliament, a large increase
was to be made to the civil list. He was
happy to congratulate the House on any
diminution of the burthens that pressed so
heavily on the country; and he was sure
that the great reduction which would ac-
crue from the royal establishment being
kept at the amount settled in 1816, would
give great and general satisfaction. His
majesty next told them, with feelings of
deep regret, that the machinations of the
disaffected had led to open violence and
insurrection in many parts of the king-
doin; but he accompanied that informa-
tion with an assurance which they would
all be glad to hear-that the attempts of
the disloyal had every where been check-
ed, by the prompt and zealous exertions
of the constituted authorities. It was
painful to find the country in such a situ-
ation; but, however they might grieve at

the existence of disaffection, the House
of Commons of the United Kingdom
would not forget their duty; they would
bear in mind, that every loyal subject in
the realm looked to them for protection.
He recollected that an eloquent gentle-
man had said, in the last session of par.
liament, that lie did not dread a revolu-
tion, but an attempt to bring about a re-
volution. A horrid attempt had been
made, but it had providentially failed. It
was not a sudden attempt to which the
parties were instigated by distress, but a
deliberate plan insidiously and wickedly
to overthrow the government of the coun-
try; and for this event they had endea-
voured to prepare the people, by remov-
ing from their minds every moral and re-
ligious feeling. He was sure his opinion
would meet with the concurrence of the
whole House, when he said, that this was
a state of things which was not fit to be
endured, and which every authority in the
kingdom ought to repress. But all that
had passed was nothing to what might be
expected to follow, if the laws of the
country did not resume their efficacy, and
if tile people were not, by that renewed
efficacy of the laws, brought back from
the errors into which they had been mis-
led. The House had interests to consult
beyond those of the present moment. If
it was their intention to support the con-
stitution, they must support it by check-
ing the principles of disaffection which
had been so industriously diffused. The
constitution of this country was a system
which imposed on the people no restraints
but such as were necessary to the well-
being of the community. But if the cha-
racter of the country was in danger of
being changed, and if a system of immo-
rality and disaffection was undermining
the fabric of the constitution, it became
the duty of parliament to interpose, and
apply a check to the growing evil. Be-
fore he sat down, he would say a word or
two on the distress and disturbance which
at present existed. That great distress
prevailed could not be denied, but he be-
lieved there was no person, especially in
that House, who was not anxious to re-
lieve it. Whether that question came be-
fore parliament or not, or in whatever
shape it came, it was essential to the inte-
rests of the country that it should be
viewed free from all party considerations.
The general interests of the country were
involved in the question; and, viewing it
in that light, parliament might be able to

at Me Openinmg of the Session.1

alleviate or to remove the evil of which majesty, that we shall proceed with the
all complained. He was convinced, how- utmost readiness to make such an ade-
ever, that, till the country was reduced quate provision for the support of his ma-
to a state of obedience to the laws, every jesty's civil government, as may be suffi-
attempt to lighten the public distress must cient to maintain the honour and dignity
be fruitless and unavailing. The first of the Crown:-To express our gratitude
thing to be done was, to establish that to his majesty for the paternal solicitude
point, and to reduce the refractory to for the interests of his people by which he
obedience; and, compared with that ob- has been guided, in the manner in which
ject, every other was of minor considera- he has been graciously pleased to bring
tion. In alluding to the present disturb- this important subject under our consider-
ances, he meant not to lead at present to nation; and to assure his majesty, that we
any discussion on the subject; but he shall not fail to enter upon it with corres-
thought that no man, whatever might be ponding feelings of loyalty and attach-
his principles, would deny that it was the ment to his person and government:-To
duty of that House to compel obedience make our most dutiful acknowledgments
to the laws. In his apprehension, nothing to his majesty for the satisfaction which
beyond this point was desirable. It was he has expressed at the vigilance and ac.
neither necessary nor desirable to impose tivity of the magistrates, and the zealous
any severe restraints on the people, but co-operation of all those whose exertions
merely to enforce those salutary laws have been called forth to support the au-
which were already in existence. He had thority of the laws, by which the machi-
now fulfilled the promise which he made nations and designs of the disaffected,
not to detain them long: and he begged which we deeply regret to find have led,
to return thanks to the House for the in- in some parts of the country, to acts of
dulgent attention with which they had open violence and insurrection, have been
heard him. The hon. baronet concluded happily suppressed:-To assure his ma-
by moving, jesty, that while we trust that the wisdom
That an humble Address be presented and firmness manifested by the late par-
to his majesty, to return the thanks of liament, and the due execution of the
this House to his majesty for his most laws, have greatly contributed to restore
gracious Speech from the throne :-To confidence throughout the kingdom, to
acknowledge with the liveliest gratitude his discountenance those principles of sedi-
majesty's gracious assurance, that he shall tion and irreligion which had been disse-
always continue to imitate the great exam- minated with so much perseverance, and
pie of our late venerated sovereign, his had so poisoned the minds of the igno-
majesty's beloved father, in unceasing at- rant and unwary; his majesty may se-
tention to the public interests, and in pa- curely rely upon our continued support
tcrnal solicitude for the welfare and hap- in his determination to maintain, by all
piness of all classes of his subjects:-To the means entrusted to his hands, the
express the satisfaction that we feel at public safety and tranquillity :-That, de-
the prospect of continued tranquillity, ploring as we all must do the distress
derived from the assurances of the friend- which still unhappily prevails amongst
ly dl-p..ir-it. of foreign powers, which many of the labouring classes of the corn-
have been renewed to his majesty, with unity, and anxiously looking forward
their earnest desire to cultivate the rela- to its removal or mitigation, we feel it to
tions of peace and amity :-To return our be in the mean time our indispensable
humble thanks to his majesty, for having duty, to concur with his majesty in
ordered the estimates for the present year every measure necessary to give effectual
to be laid before us, and for the attention protection to the loyal, the peaceable,
to strict economy which his majesty has and the industrious, against those prac-
been pleased so graciously to assure us tices of turbulence and intimidation by
has been observed in framing them:-To which the period of relief can only be
entreat his majesty to believe that we deferred, and by which the pressure of
fully participate in the deep regret ex- the distress has been incalculably aggra-
pressed by his majesty, that the state of vated: that we concur most heartily ir
the country has not enabled him to di- the benevolent wish expressed by hi
pense with those additions to our military majesty, that an awakened sense of th
force, which were found necessary in the dangers which they have incurred, an
ast session of parliament:-To assure his of the arts which have been employed


Address on the Kings S~fpeech~

APRIL 27, 1820. [34

seduce them, will bring back the far
greater proportion of those who have
been unhappily led astray, and will revive
in them that spirit of loyalty, that due
submission to the laws, and that attach-
ment to the constitution, which we are
confident subsists in the hearts of the
great body of the people, which, under
the blessing of Divine Providence, has
cured to the British nation the enjoyment
of a larger share of practical freedom, as
well as of prosperity and happiness, than
has fallen to the lot of any nation in the
Mr. Wilmot rose to second the address,
and said, that he did not yield to the hon.
mover in the earnest hope which he had
expressed, that the House would unani-
mously agree to the address; and he
trusted that no expression would fall from
him which could in any degree tend to
provoke discussion, or interrupt the una-
nimity of the House. He would avoid the
introduction of any topics which might
more properly come under the subsequent
consideration of the House; but there
was one topid on which he could anticipate
the unanimous feelings of the House-
he meant the demise of our late venerable
sovereign. Looking at the period of his
accession to the throne in the prime of
life and the pride of hope, and contrasting
it with the mournful close of his life,
when confined within the precincts of his
palace, and bereft of that sense which
might have mitigated his afflictions, he
was shut out from almost all the consola-
tions which this life affords. Whatever
difference of opinion might exist as to the
policy of the measures pursued during
his reign, every feeling of irritation must
subside at the contemplation of so awful
an instance of the instability of human
grandeur. The recollection of the pater-
nal solicitude with which he uniformly
watched over the interests of the peo-
ple, would secure to his memory the last-
ing gratitude of the country. His
reign, one of the longest in our annals,
was distinguished by an event so promi-
nent, as almost to monopolize our at-
tention;-he alluded to the French re-
volution, an event which might justly be
considered as one of the most extraor-
dinary in the history of nations, whether
we regarded its origin, its continuance or
its termination. It had terminated in a
military despotism, which threatened to
overwhelm the whole civilized world, but
which had been, at length, triumphantly

overthrown by the persevering exertions
of this country. That great event had
occurred in the actual reign of the late
monarch, but in the virtual reign of our
present sovereign. We had not only the
promise of his majesty that he would fol-
low the great example of his father, but
we might look back with satisfaction upon
its actual performance during the period
in which he had exercised the functions
of royalty. In adverting to that part of
the speech which related to the finances
of the country, he felt assured that the
House would convey to the throne its
gratitude for his majesty's renunciation of
his hereditary revenues, and for the prin-
ciple of strict economy which dictated the
arrangement of the civil list. Without
entering into a review of any of the mea-
sures of the last session, he might express
his confidence that the present parliament
would be most anxious to support the
dignity of the Crown, and the safety of
the state, without reference to past trans-
actions. He deplored deeply the dis-
tresses still prevailing in various parts of
the country, but he deplored no less the
advantage that had been taken of inevit-
able visitations to corrupt the minds of
the lower orders, the effect of which could
only be to augment sufferings that might
otherwise be alleviated. He trusted that the
time was not far distant, when the influ-
ence of temporary irritation would be re-
moved; and that as soon as existing de-
lusions were dispersed, the disaffected
would return to their duty. He could
not avoid here referring to the opinion of
a most distinguished individual (the late
Mr. Burke), whose sentiments upon this
subject seemed to partake of the spirit of
prophecy; it was uttered in 1791, and
was in these words:-" As long as by
every art the disaffected keep alive the
spirit of disaffection against the constitu-
tion of the kingdom, and attribute, as
lately they have done, all the public
misfortunes to that constitution, it is ab-
solutely impossible that some moment
should not arrive when they will be able
to produce a pretended reform but a real
revolution." What was here said gener-
ally might perhaps be applied particularly
to the constitution of the House of Com-
mons: for what good could result from
the attempts to vilify it ? Without en-
tering into any of the questions of reform,
and without pledging itself in favour of
the abstract projects for its improvement,
he was well assured that the House would

at the Opening of'the Session.

,tand by the constitution, would do all in
its power to instruct the public mind,
and, by removing existing delusions, es-
tablish that national prosperity which was
compatible with the present state and for-
mation of the House of Commons. He
never could believe that principles of
sound political economy could have a
fairer chance in a body collected merely
to obey the will of the people, and com-
pelled to abandon one course of policy
for another at the command of the people,
than in a body constituted like that which
was now assembled to promote the na-
tional prosperity. He was convinced that
the House would give the present state of
the country its most anxious attention;
but he should be merely aiding the pre-
vailing delusions, if he expressed any opi-
nion but that the distresses could only be
removed by the slow but certain process
of time, which would invigorate the great
sources of wealth, for a moment in some
degree exhausted. Notwithstanding un-
favourable appearances, there was every
reason to anticipate that at .no distant pe-
riod therealand practical blessings of peace
would be enjoyed by the whole people.
The prosperity and happiness of the com-
munity at large, depended upon its
sobriety and industry, and lie trusted that
a conviction of this truth would soon su-
persede the false and injurious notions at
present prevailing among a great body
of the manufacturing classes. It was
not less his sanguine hope that the
unanimous opinion of the House on this
subject would have the speedy effect
of checking and repressing disorders.
In reviewing therefore the various topics
of the royal speech, he should be ex-
tremely 'ir.,mill.g that any thing should
drop from him that might for a moment
retard the state he was anticipating: he
did not mean to pledge himself against
any kind of amelioration or reform, but
he protested against the supposition, that
the lower class or any class of the com-
munity could be benefitted by a general
and sweeping alteration of the constitu-
tion. The nation was blest with a system
of civil polity the most perfect of any age
or country, and he believed that the great
mass of the people duly estimated it: if
the inferior orders, in the manufacturing
districts, were once convinced of its be-
nefits, much of the power of the agitators
would be destroyed for ever. He con-
cluded by thanking the House for the pa-
tience with which he had been received.

Address on the King's Speech [36
Mr. Tierney said, le was not disposed
to quarrel with a great deal that had fallen
from the hon. mover and seconder; on
the contrary, he agreed with them entirely
upon some points; and if at all times he
felt it unnecessary to bring forward matter
of Ii:. i.ince where none was offered on
the other side, he should be peculiarly
unwilling to do so on the present occasion,
when the first speech of a new sovereign
was before the House. The fair, cool,
and temperate tone of the hon. gentlemen
who had just taken their seats, formed
another inducement for him not to ex-
press any dissent; or, supposing the
speech from the throne had contained any
particular phrase, ambiguous or liable to
misconstruction, what they had said on the
various points would probably have ren-
dered explanation needless. He congra-
tulated the House on the prevailing una-
nimity ; he hoped it was an earnest of the
future, and that all parties in the House
would unite in the expression of unshaken
loyalty to the Crown, and of firm deter-
mination, while the true liberties of the
people were supported, to set themselves
honestly and steadily against those machi-
nations alike directed against the happi-
ness and security of the sovereign and his
subjects. In that direction he would go
as far as any man; and beyond that, hap-
pily, on the present occasion, it was not
necessary to say more. He therefore
again congratulated the House on the fa-
vourable auspices under which the new
session was commenced.
Sir Francis Burdett said, that he
should be very sorry if he were supposed
capable of showing any disrespect to the
throne, by disturbing the unanimity so
desirable on the present occasion. He
should certainly be reluctant to do so for
the reasons already stated; but he could
not at the same time avoid observing, that
for some few years past the House had
been placed in rather an awkward and
disagreeable predicament with regard to
the speeches from the throne. Formerly
it was expected that they should be a full
and fair statement of the whole situation
of the country, instead of being fritterel
away, as at present, into mere matters of
form and compliment, in which gentlemen
might or might not concur according to
the state of their own feelings, and the
respect which all ought to feel toward:
the person of the sovereign, but a non
concurrence in which need not be ir
truded upon the House when all question

at the Opening of the Session.

of state policy, and all general principles
involving the conscientious opinions'of in-
dividuals, were so carefully avoided. He
could not help thinking that an extreme
want of courtesy had been shown by the
executive government in not pursuing the
wholesome practice of former times-lie
believed from the Revolution downwards.
It might be considered a privilege, and a
very important privilege, of the House,
that the tenor and nature of the king's
speech should be made known to the
members on the day before it was deli-
vered from the throne. The custom used
to be, for members to attend in the cock-
pit, where the speech was read ; it thus
formed the topic of thought and conver-
sation on the evening anterior to the
meeting of parliament. By this means
gentlemen were able to attend in their
places after they had given due reflection
to the great topics that ought to form,
and then did form, the main features of a
speech from the throne. Tobecalled upon,
however, to agree in whatever sentiments
the minister of the day might think fit to
put into the mouth of the king, more es-
pecially in the present state and circum-
stances of the country, was most extraor-
dinary: it was calling upon the House to
do a little more than its duty enjoined.
In loyalty, and in a love for the constitu-
tion, lie would yield to no man ; he also
felt an unfeigned respect for the sove-
reign : but surely it was a little too much
to expect, that, on the first showing of
the minister, lie should be prepared to
say, that he concurred in the various parts
of the royal speech. On the spur of the
moment he should not like to enter into a
consideration of it; nor, by so doing,
should he think that lie discharged his
duty either to the people or to the Crown.
When a younger man, and when first this
new practice was introduced, he had pro-
posed on one occasion that the considera-
tion of the speech should be adjourned to
the following day : in the present instance,
however, he should be sorry even to make
that proposition ; but he begged, while lie
consented to the compliment on the com-
mencement of a new reign, to guard him-
self against being supposed to concur in
any of the sentiments of the address, ex-
cepting those of congratulation and con-
dolence-in short, in any thing that was
not matter of mere and absolute form.
IHe protested therefore, generally against
being precluded on any future occasion
from stating where lie differed, and on

what grounds he differed: indeed, one or
two points were so prominent, that but
for the respect he wished to evince on
the opening of a new reign, lie should
have felt imperiously called upon to notice
them ; he should, however, reserve his re-
marks upon them until a future occasion,
When they should be brought forward in
another shape, and should not disturb the
unanimity which it was his wish, as well
as that of the House, to preserve.
The Address was agreed to nem. con.

Friday, April 28.
The Speaker informed the House that he
had received a letter, dated Calcutta, Oc-
tober 6, 1819, from the marquis of Hast-
ings, which, with the permission of the
House, he would then read.
Sir; Calcutta, Oct. 6, 1819.
I have to acknowledge the honour of
your letter, conveying to me the high
distinction of thanks from the House of
Commons on the issue of the campaign in
Central India.-So proud a reward is very
gratefully received by me, although the
terms confine the approbation to my mili-
tary management. I would fain assure
myself the honourable House could not
but be satisfied that the endeavour to ex-
tinguish the Pindarries was imposed on
this government by the most direct neces-
sity ; that the contest with the Mahrattas,
though guarded against as a risk involved
in the other undertaking, was altogether
unsought by us, and that the events dis
tinctly prove there could have been no
previous plan for extending the honour-
able Company's territories in deviation
from the expressed judgment of the legis-
laturc.-Sensible as I should still have
been to the generosity of th3 House of
Commons in discriminating and noticing
favourably my professional exertions, I
could secretly have cherished little pride
in the honour, had I felt myself open to
the imputation of having wilfully entailed
war by indulging a perverse or illicit po-
licy: but I most respectfully venture to
rest upon the opinion of the honourable
House as to my not having tborotten, in
a case of exigency, the spirit of the rules
prescribed to me, and what was due to
the character of my country.-I have no-
tified to lieut.-general sir Thomas Hislop,
to the other general officers, and to the

APrIL 28, 1820.

troops employed in the campaign, tlhe
approbation which the House of Com-
mons has been pleased to express of their
services. The gratitude with which
such a testimony of satisfaction from
the honourable House will be received
can be confidently asserted by me.-The
obliging terms which you personally have
had the goodness to add, in communicat-
ing the resolutions to me, are truly flat-
tering to me; and I have the honour to
remain, &c. HASTINGS."

John Russell gave notice of a motion for
leave to bring in a bill to disfranchise the
borough or Grampound, and to transfer
the elective franchise to the borough of
Leeds. He also begged leave to say,
that in the course of the session he in-
tended to submit to the House a motion
for shortening the duration of sir M.
Lopez's imprisonment.

Brougham gave notice, that, at an early
period after the Whitsuntide holidays, he
should submit a motion relative to the
education of the poor. Although he was
aware that it was irregular to enter into
any explanation on rising merely to give
a notice, yet he trusted the House would
allow him to observe, that the delay which
had already occurred was owing to any
thing rather than to his being less sensible
than formerly of the importance of educa-
tion. On the contrary, the events which had
lately occurred had rather strengthened
his conviction of the indispensable neces-
sity of imparting education to the poor.
One cause of the delay which had taken
place was, that the Education Digest, on
which the measures which he should have
to propose would be founded, could not
be sooner prepared; and it was desirable
that it should be in the hands of members
before the question was brought under
discussion. Another reason for his not
fixing an earlier period was, that the dis-
cussion of the civil list, incident to the
commencement of a reign, would occupy
the attention of the House for a consider-
able time, and it was desirable that the
discussions on these two subjects should
be kept separate. Longer, however, than
till after the holidays, he could not con-
sent to postpone the consideration of this
important question.


Address on the King's Specch [40
nell rose to give notice, that on Thursday,
the 11th of May, his right lion. friend,
the member for Dublin (Mr. Grattan),
would submit to the House a motion for
the removal of the disabilities which the
law at present imposed on his majesty's
Roman Catholic subjects.

Lambton rose to renew the notice which
lie had given in the last session of parlia-
ment of his intention to bring before the
House the present state uf the represen-
tation; and he now gave notice that he
should submit a motion on that subject
on Tuesday the 6th of June. As far as
he could judge, that arrangement would
not interfere with the other business of
the House.

A. Hamilton gave notice, that he meant
to bring before the House the question
of the Scotch representation; and, to
keep clear of the time just fixed on by his
hon. friend, he should bring forward his
motion on the 24th of May. He also
gave notice, that on Thursday next he
should move for the revival of the com-
mittee on the Scotch burghs.

E. Knatchbull brought up the report of
the Address on the King's Speech. Upon
the motion, that it be read a second time,
Lord A. Hamilton said, that it was not
his intention to trouble the House at any
length, but he could not allow the pre-
sent opportunity to pass without impress-
ing on the minds of the right hon. gentle-
men opposite the necessity of attending
to the distress of that part of the country
with which he was connected. When
the House recollected that fourteen or
fifteen weeks ago the commerce and ma-
nufactures of the country had been re-
presented to be in a most flourishing
condition, and when they compared that
declaration with the statements in the
Speech delivered yesterday from the
throne, they must all be struck with the
sudden change which had taken place in
the aspect of the country; and he, for
one, should not think that he discharged
his duty conscientiously, if he did not on
the present occasion suggest what lie con-
ceived might be applied in mitigation of
the evil. They would all remember that
a sum of 50,0001. had been voted last

APRIL 28, 1820. [42

year for the purpose of promoting emi-
gration to the Cape of Good Hope; and
the object of that grant was, undoubtedly,
that which the House and his majesty's
ministers ought to have in view-the al-
leviation of distress. There were in that
House many honourable members who
were as well acquainted as he was with
the present situation of the distressed part
of Scotland, and particularly his hon.
friend opposite (Mr. Finlay), whose con-
nexion with Glasgow led him necessarily
to know the state of that part of the
country; and he was sure it must be
their opinion, that if ministers meant to
assist those who were disposed to emi-
grate, they ought to give that assistance
immediately. Many persons in that coun-
try were in such an absolute state of des-
titution, that they looked on their exist-
ence as a burthen which they could
scarcely support. They could neither
maintain themselves nor theirfamilies; and
the period was fast approaching, when
without food and without raiment, they
must either perish, or prolong their exist-
ence by the plunder of their neighbours.
He could not, therefore, let this opportu-
nity pass without urging on ministers the
necessity of turning their attention to the
deplorable state of things; and, if they
seriously applied their minds to the sub-
ject, they would not only be conferring a
benefit on the sufferers, but would be
taking the most effectual means of sup-
pressing that disturbance of which they
complained. He must say, that, from
the spirit and temper of ministers, they
seemed to have greatly under-rated the
distress which at present existed in the
northern part of the kingdom. They had
ascribed a larger portion of the disturb-
ance to disaffection than to distress, and
had applied force to quell disturbances
which would have been more effectually
suppressed by furnishing the means of
subsistence. The right lion. gentlemen
opposite were more willing to facilitate
emigration to the Cape of Good Hope
than to any other quarter of the world :
and the reasons for this preference he
could not perceive, especially as most of
those who were inclined to emigrate from
Scotland had powerful reasons to induce
them to go to our settlements in America,
rather than to Africa. He begged to call
on his majesty's ministers to say what
part of the money which had been voted
last year for the promotion of emigration,
had been applied to that purpose; how

many persons had availed themselves of
the offer of government; and what had
been the result of the plan, as far as it
had been adopted. He concluded by ob-
serving, that any delay in the application
of a remedy to the evils which he had
pointed out would not only be disastrous
in itself, but would render more difficult
the attainment of that ultimate object
which ought to be kept in view-the sup-
pression of the present disturbances in
The Chancellor of the Exchequer stated,
in reply to the questions of the noble
lord, that the expense already incurred
considerably exceeded the 50,0001. which
had been voted by parliament for the en-
couragement of emigration, though all
the charges had not yet been defrayed.
As to the number of those who had
availed themselves of this assistance, he
had to inform the noble lord, that up-
wards of 5,000 persons had already gone
to the Cape of Good Hope; and, when
the last accounts were received from
them, they had performed part of the
voyage in good health, and had the pros-
pect of terminating it prosperously. When
the noble lord recommended North Ame-
rica as a preferable place for emigrants to
resort to, he apprehended the noble lord
was not aware of the representations which
had been received from that quarter. In
America the greatest distress at present
prevailed, and the manufactures of that
country were in as languishing a state as
those of our own. To send the destitute
to that quarter would be, therefore, only
to shift the scene of distress, and to trans-
port them to poverty on a foreign shore.
The British provinces of America were
also so overloaded with emigration, that
the strongest remonstrances had been
made on the subject by the government
of Canada. It proved a great grievance
both to the government and the people;
and, under these circumstances, he thought
it would be highly premature to adopt
any plan for the promotion of emigration
to that quarter. His majesty's ministers
were not reluctant to assist those who
were distressed at home in looking for a
happier lot on any foreign shore; but
such a measure should not be hastily or
prematurely adopted. With regard to
farther emigration to the Cape of Good
Hope, government wished, in the first
place, to learn the success of those who
had already gone out, before they encou-
raged any farther emigration to that set-

at the Opening of the Session.

43] HOUSE OF COMMONS, Droits of the Crown and Privy Purse. [44

tlement on a more extended scale. He
hoped the House and the noble lord would
do his majesty's ministers the justice to
think that they did not feel any reluc-
tance to assist the distressed part of the
population in seeking that comfort on fo-
reign shores which circumstances pre-
vented them from enjoying at home,
though they might not appear so forward
as some expected in tendering that as-
Mr. Finlay agreed with what had been
stated by his noble friend respecting the
distressed state of the country; and when
the right hon. gentleman stated that only
5,000 persons had gone to the Cape of
Good Hope, the House would see that
by the regulations adopted it had been
impossible for the distressed population to
relieve themselves. It was impossible for
them to pay any sum of money, however
small; and therefore, if the means of emi-
gration were not granted unconditionally,
and as a boon, he feared they could not
avail themselves of the opportunity afford-
ed. He believed his noble friend was in
possession of many communications, as he
himself was, from persons who, though
perfectly willing to emigrate, could not
transport themselves, being destitute of
all means whatever. He was confident
that the subject required only to be
brought forward by government in such a
practical manner as to engage attention,
and that a sum of money, comparatively
small, would be productive of great be-
nefit, since those who were removed would
not only be relieved themselves, but would
relieve those to whom they were at present
a burthen.
The Address was agreed to nerm. con.

PURSE.] Mr. Tierney said, he could not
help observing, that the papers before the
House seemed to be all very clear, with the
exception of the sum of 385,0001. The al-
lowance to the privy purse, it was known,
was 60,0001. per annum; but, over and
above that allowance, there appeared to
have been, during the late reign, an ex-
cess of 385,0001. He would thank the
right hon. gentleman to explain this
The Chancellor of the Exchequer ob-
served, that it had been from time to time
the practice of parliament, that certain
monies, arising from particular colonial
funds, should be added to the privy purse.
But the right hon. gentleman would sec,

that this total of 385,0001., as taken upon
the long reign of his late majesty, was
little more, upon an average, than 6,0001.
Mr. Tierney knew that the allowance of
60,0001. for a privy-purse was vested in
the Crown by parliament. But this case
was entirely different; for, with respect
to the privy-purse, it had been thought
fit that the king should have a sum at his
absolute disposal, for whatever purposes
he thought proper; and no doubt this
was extremely fitting. This sum had
been limited to 60,0001., and it was placed
beyond the control of the House, and not
subject to any other curb than his ma-
jesty's own discretion. But this excess
was stated to have been added out of
funds whose application should be matter
of parliamentary direction, and for which
ministers were responsible. He must
again ask, how this addition was to be
justified ?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said,
that such had been the immemorial usage.
Mr. Tierney wished to know, whether
they were to understand that the funds of
the Crown might be enlarged in this man-
ner by his majesty's ministers ? If not,
how did it happen that this 6,0001. a-year,
or aggregate sum of 385,0001., lihd been
so added to a specific provision made by
parliament for the privy purse? How did
it happen that no account was rendered,
by which it might appear that about
6,0001. a-year was yearly carried to the
increase of that purse in the way men-
tioned by the right hon. gentleman ?
Mr. Hnume was very anxious to know
what the colonial funds in question were.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said,
that it was impossible to give a specific
account of such appropriations, occurring
in the earlier years of so extended a reign,
although it might be in his power to show
in what manner they had been made dur-
ing the latter part of it.
Mr. Tierney said, that the excess of
385,000/., for any thing he saw upon the
face of those papers, might have accrued
in one year instead of sixty years.
Mr. Brougham said, that upon the sub-
ject of the civil list it might be matter of
convenience to the House to understand
when it would be brought forward. Ile
deeply regretted that it was one which
was not to remain in the hands of hon.
gentlemen opposite. He did hope that
those hon. gentlemen would have sub-
mitted the matter to the consideration of

45] Revenues of the Crown.
parliament; and from them he consi-
dered it would most properly and most
effectually have come. It appeared,how-
ever, that the fact would prove otherwise ;
and therefore, in order to redeem the pledge
he had given in 1812, and because others
would not, he should himself bring it under
their notice. If they would not come
forward and move the House to take away
this fund altogether, and vest it in parlia-
ment, as it ought to be vested, and as all
other public funds of this nature were
vested-if they would not support a pro-
position to give to the Crown a moderate
compensation for it, he now begged to
say, that he would bring the question
before them upon Thursday next; and as
it was material that the motion should
come forward before the other pro-
positions, he could wish it to be un-
derstood that it should have precedence of
the other business. The House were
aware that they were about to discuss how
much should be the allowance to be made
to the Crown. Now, since he should have
to propose that something should be taken
away from what the Crown already had,
non constant that that circumstance might
not move them to increase, pro tanto, the
rate of that allowance.

following account was laid on the table of
the House by his Majesty's command.
An account of the total produce of all Funds
at the disposal of the Crown, and usually
deemed not to be under the immediate
control ot Parliament, since the accession
of his late majesty; distinguishing the
monies arising from droits of the ad-
miralty, and droits of the Crown; 41 per
cent West-India duties; Scotch revenue;
and from all other sources not hereinbefore
specified; so far as the same can be ascer-
An account of [the droits of s. s. d.
the Admiralty and droits
of the Crown, from 1760
to 1820 .............. 9,562,614 4 6
The application of this
sum in rewards to cap-
tors, and payments to
claimants, and in aid of
the public service, and of
the civil list, and for
other purposes, is to be
found in the accounts
which have from time
to time been laid before
An account of the four and
half per cent West-India

APRIL 28, 1820. [46
duties, from 1760,to1820. 2,116,484 0 0
This revenue is charged
with the salaries of the
governors and various
other public officers con-
nected with the West
Indies, and also with the
payment of pensions
granted by the Crown; as
appears in the accounts
laid from time to time
before Parliament.
An account of the sur-
plus of Gibraltar, reve-
nues, remitted to England
from 1760 to 1820, after
discharging garrison ex-
penses ................ 124,256 10 7
An account of the sur-
plus of Scotch Civil List,
from 1760 to 1820, now
appropriated as it may
arise, under the act 50
Geo. 3rd, c. 3. in aid of
the Civil List in Eng-
land .................. 207,700 0 0
An account of the Es-
cheats to his majesty in
cases of illegitimacy or
otherwise, from 1760 to
1820.................. 214,647 15 0
SAn account of the Es-
cheats to his majesty,
being the property of
Alien enemies, from 1760
to 1820 .............. 108,777 17 8
An account of the funds
arising by sale of lands in
the French West India
islands, ceded at the peace
of 1763 .............. 106,300 0 0
An account of the reve-
nues arising from the is-
lands of Minorca, Marti-
nique, St. Croix, and St.
Thomas, and from the
settlement of Surinam,
while the same were in
the possession of his ma-
jesty...:.............. 150,816 0 7
An account of the casual
revenues arising from quit
rents, &c. in the British
colonies, and from all
other sources not before
enumerated, from 1760 to
1820.................. 104,865 3 2J

X..12,705,461 11 7

The whole of these sums have been ap-
propriated at various times in discharge of
the debts of the civil list, and to other public
purposes, as will appear by the reports and ac-
counts laid before parliament; with the ex-
ception of 385,0001., which sum was applied
between his majesty's accession and the year

1820, in numerous payments, for the purposes
of the privy purse, as directed by his majesty.
Whitehall, Treasury Chambers,
April, 28, 1820.

Monday, May 1.
DRESS.] The Speaker reported his Ma-
jesty's Answer to the Address, as follows :
Gentlemen; I return you my warmest
thanks for this loyal and dutiful address.
It gives me the utmost satisfaction to
receive these assurances of your venera-
tion for the memory of my beloved father,
and of your attachment to my person and
government, on this first occasion of my
meeting you in parliament since my ac-
cession to the throne; and I shall rely
with confidence on your support in my
endeavours to promote the welfare of all
classes of my people, as affording, under
the blessing of Divine Providence, the
surest pledge of a prosperous and happy
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said,
he had searched the Journals of the
House, and had found two precedents in
former reigns wherein it had been tlhe
practice of the House to return thanks
for the royal answer to the address pre-
sented to the throne by the first parlia-
ment of a new reign; therefore as hon.
gentlemen had now heard read from the
chair the most gracious answer of his pre-
sent majesty, he should move that an
humble address be presented to his ma-
jesty returning the most humble thanks of
this House for his most gracious answer
to the address; and that such address be
presented to his majesty by such members
of this House as were members of his ma-
jesty's privy council."-The motion was
agreed to.
Sumner adverted to the great inconveni-
ences under which the county of Surrey
laboured, owing to the varying and uncer-
tain state of weights and measures. He
said that the city of London had formerly
felt the great inconvenience and disadvan-
tage of a similar state of things, and con-
ceived that, acting under their own autho..
rity, they were capable of subdividing the
standard measure in the Exchequer, and
and of making those subdivisions the
standards of weights and measures within
their jurisdiction. Now, the county of

Courts of Justice in Scotland. [ 48
Surrey having no means of obtaining that
standard exchequer measure, took its own
standard from that of the city of London,
and nothing could be executed with more
apparent accuracy than these weights and
measures of the county were. But the
county was immediately convicted for
having so done, and now laboured under
the state of one using weights and measures
no longer established by law; the conse-
quence was, that the public were liable to
be defrauded to any excess without any
possibility of redress. At the time when
he first brought this subject under the
notice of parliament, he gave notice that
he should move for leave to bring in a bill
in order to remedy so great and manifest
an inconvenience; but the chancellor of
the exchequer, on that occasion, seemed
to wish that he should suspend such a
measure, seeing that a committee had
been already appointed to inquire into
matters of this kind; and to intimate, that
some general bill relative to weights and
measures would be introduced by his ma-
jesty's ministers. Thus the case had
stood two years ; and though he was per-
fectly aware that the labours of the com.
mittee had been greatly retarded in con-
sequence of investigating new specimens
of bank notes, yet he thought it time that
some definitive information on the sub-
ject should be afforded: and his object in
now rising was to ask the chancellor of
the exchequer whether the labours of that
committee were concluded, or whether in
consequence of their investigation it was
his intention to introduce any general
measure relative to establishing a standard
of weights and measures.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer was
not entirely prepared to answer the ques-
tion of the hon. gentleman. The subject
was one which had long occupied the at-
tention of his majesty's ministers. He
was quite aware of its importance, but he
apprehended that no general meausre
could be brought in during the present
session ; some preliminary steps, however,
might be taken.

Mr. H. Clive laid on the table a number
of papers and reports connected with the
commission to inquire into the receipt of
fees, &c. in the courts of justice in Scot-
land. He moved they should be printed.
Lord A. Hamilton begged to be in-
formed whether it was true that a new ap-
pointment had taken place, or was about

1820, in numerous payments, for the purposes
of the privy purse, as directed by his majesty.
Whitehall, Treasury Chambers,
April, 28, 1820.

Monday, May 1.
DRESS.] The Speaker reported his Ma-
jesty's Answer to the Address, as follows :
Gentlemen; I return you my warmest
thanks for this loyal and dutiful address.
It gives me the utmost satisfaction to
receive these assurances of your venera-
tion for the memory of my beloved father,
and of your attachment to my person and
government, on this first occasion of my
meeting you in parliament since my ac-
cession to the throne; and I shall rely
with confidence on your support in my
endeavours to promote the welfare of all
classes of my people, as affording, under
the blessing of Divine Providence, the
surest pledge of a prosperous and happy
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said,
he had searched the Journals of the
House, and had found two precedents in
former reigns wherein it had been tlhe
practice of the House to return thanks
for the royal answer to the address pre-
sented to the throne by the first parlia-
ment of a new reign; therefore as hon.
gentlemen had now heard read from the
chair the most gracious answer of his pre-
sent majesty, he should move that an
humble address be presented to his ma-
jesty returning the most humble thanks of
this House for his most gracious answer
to the address; and that such address be
presented to his majesty by such members
of this House as were members of his ma-
jesty's privy council."-The motion was
agreed to.
Sumner adverted to the great inconveni-
ences under which the county of Surrey
laboured, owing to the varying and uncer-
tain state of weights and measures. He
said that the city of London had formerly
felt the great inconvenience and disadvan-
tage of a similar state of things, and con-
ceived that, acting under their own autho..
rity, they were capable of subdividing the
standard measure in the Exchequer, and
and of making those subdivisions the
standards of weights and measures within
their jurisdiction. Now, the county of

Courts of Justice in Scotland. [ 48
Surrey having no means of obtaining that
standard exchequer measure, took its own
standard from that of the city of London,
and nothing could be executed with more
apparent accuracy than these weights and
measures of the county were. But the
county was immediately convicted for
having so done, and now laboured under
the state of one using weights and measures
no longer established by law; the conse-
quence was, that the public were liable to
be defrauded to any excess without any
possibility of redress. At the time when
he first brought this subject under the
notice of parliament, he gave notice that
he should move for leave to bring in a bill
in order to remedy so great and manifest
an inconvenience; but the chancellor of
the exchequer, on that occasion, seemed
to wish that he should suspend such a
measure, seeing that a committee had
been already appointed to inquire into
matters of this kind; and to intimate, that
some general bill relative to weights and
measures would be introduced by his ma-
jesty's ministers. Thus the case had
stood two years ; and though he was per-
fectly aware that the labours of the com.
mittee had been greatly retarded in con-
sequence of investigating new specimens
of bank notes, yet he thought it time that
some definitive information on the sub-
ject should be afforded: and his object in
now rising was to ask the chancellor of
the exchequer whether the labours of that
committee were concluded, or whether in
consequence of their investigation it was
his intention to introduce any general
measure relative to establishing a standard
of weights and measures.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer was
not entirely prepared to answer the ques-
tion of the hon. gentleman. The subject
was one which had long occupied the at-
tention of his majesty's ministers. He
was quite aware of its importance, but he
apprehended that no general meausre
could be brought in during the present
session ; some preliminary steps, however,
might be taken.

Mr. H. Clive laid on the table a number
of papers and reports connected with the
commission to inquire into the receipt of
fees, &c. in the courts of justice in Scot-
land. He moved they should be printed.
Lord A. Hamilton begged to be in-
formed whether it was true that a new ap-
pointment had taken place, or was about

Steam Engines and Furnaces.

to take place; namely, that of a fourth
baron of the exchequer in Scotland ? He
saw, with regret, that no respect whatever
had been paid to the suggestion of the
committee, relative to the diminution of
judicial expenses, nor any one earthly
measure adopted in favour of the public
as regarded the decrease of its burthens.
He asked, therefore, whether such was the
intention of ministers in the event of a
vacancy ?
The Lord Advocate replied, that the
appointment had already taken place se-
veral weeks ago.
Lord A. Hamilton, after this informa-
tion, should feel it his duty to bring the
subject before the House; but at present
he was not prepared to say whether lhe
should do so by moving for a copy of the
appointment, or for a vote of censure upon
the adviser of such an appointment.
The Lord Advocate had no doubt but
that he should be able to satisfy the
House of the propriety of any measure of
this sort which had been adopted, when-
ever the period arrived for its discussion.
Sir John Newport was exceedingly anxi-
ous that hignoble friend should bring this
motion under discussion, either by moving
for a copy of the appointment, or by any
other mode of proceeding which he might
think proper. He greatly lamented that
not one step had yet been taken to realize
the suggestions of many of the most in-
telligent members of that committee.
Mr. Brougham wished to ask the learn-
ed lord one question about the filling up
of an appointment. The learned lord had
once in his place remarked, that some of-
ficers of the jury-courts of Scotland be-
ing thought necessary, their appointments
could not be filled up until parliament
met. In consequence, however, of their
having discovered a very gross transac-
tion, which he would not characterize in
the language that it deserved, it appeared
otherwise. Had an additional number of
judges of the jury-courts been really ap-
pointed ? For the transaction he spoke
of was really one of the most outrageous
and gross jobs that ever had been done.
The Lord Advocate was not cognizant
of the particular transaction to which the
learned gentleman alluded; but it was in
consequence of express representations
that the business of the judges of the jury.
courts had so much increased, that their
office could not be carried on without an
addition to their number that that addi-
tion had been made.

Mr. Brougham was not at all surprised
that the judges of the jury-court, as par-
ties in the case, should have recommended
the addition; and he grieved that an hon.
and learned friend of his was at that time
a member of that very court. He pledged
himself, however, to prove, that a grosser
job, a more palpable job, or one more
outrageous to the feelings of a burthened
public, had never been transacted, even
in Scotland.
Lord A. Hamilton then gave notice,
that he should move for a copy of the ap-
pointment on the 1lth of May.

Tuesday, May 2.
Mr. M. A. Taylor said, it was in the re-
collection of many members, that during
the session preceding the last, he had
moved for a committee to inquire into the
practicability of erecting steam engines and
furnaces in such a manner as to relieve
the places in which they were erected
from the intolerable nuisance which their
intense smoke had so generally produced
to the health and comfort of the popula-
tion of large cities and towns. That com-
Smittee had been granted to him, and their
report was in the possession of the House.
If gentlemen would take the trouble of at-
tending to its suggestions, they would find
substantial reasons to be satisfied that such
a very desirable improvement could be
both easily and promptly effected. From
the manner in which these furnaces were
erected, and increased as they were in
number, London, Manchester, Liverpool,
Birmingham, and other extensive cities
and towns, were almost become uninha-
bitable [a laugh]. Gentlemen might
laugh at the term, but he contended it
was strictly true, as the persons engaged
in business in these towns were actually
compelled to guard the health of their fa-
milies from the deleterious effects of the
ebullitions of smoke issuing from those
furnaces, by removing to hired houses at
a distance from the place of their avoca-
tions. The whole of these dense ebulli-
tions of smoke, which made the air of
large places so unhealthy, and propagated
fever and disease, principally arose from
the furnaces as they were at present con-
structed. That such an evil could be
corrected, and corrected without injury to
the persons engaged in business connect-
ed with these steam engines, lie was ce.-

MAY 2, 1820.

tain he could convince both the House
and the country. He had only to refer
to the manufactory of Mr. Parkes at War-
wick, where the experiment had been
made most successfully. He had himself
gone to Warwick for the purpose of see-
ing it, and the result had more than satis-
fied his most sanguine expectations. In
that manufactory there were three fur-
naces, all of which were constructed so as
to consume their own smoke, and lie could
add that these furnaces were constructed
at as small an expense as those generally
in use, and that they were worked with a
less consumption of fuel by one-fourth.
If, on entering Mr. Parkes's establishment
any gentleman was asked to point out the
position of the great furnaces, he would be
at a loss to discover them, so efficiently
had the experiment been carried into
practice. There was not more smoke
from these furnaces than from a common
chimney. In order to be fully satisfied,
he himself, at his visit, endeavoured to
create a smoke, but was unable. Within
ten yards of the manufactory was a
bleaching ground, and an extensive gar.
den ; and he need not add, that neither
bleaching nor planting could succeed in
the vicinity of the ordinary furnaces.
The garden and conservatory of Mr.
Parkes were also uninjured; in short, he
would defy any gentleman to go to the
place as lie had done, and not to return
with a conviction that there was ample
ground for the present motion. At a dis-
tillery within about a mile of that House,
beyond the penitentiary, the smoke was
nearly, but not entirely, consumed ; and
the owner had readily shown the mode in
which the effect was accomplished. If it
should be discovered, as he had no doubt
it would be, that the remedy was gene-
rally applicable, every man would be glad
that some compulsory law should be
adopted for the preservation of the health
and comfort of the metropolis. So fully
satisfied was he upon the subject, that he
would never cease until the object were
accomplished, and he trusted that others
would be stimulated by his example. He
would appeal to the hon. members repre-
senting that part of the country, as to the
state of the atmosphere in Manchester,
Liverpool, and Birmingham. From the
Speaker's house the ebullitions of smoke
were constantly discernible: in Bridge-
street, Blackfriars, small furnaces were
erecting, to the great annoyance of the
inhabitants, and gentlemen who had at-

Steam Engines and Furnaces. [52
tended the courts at St. James's must have
often found it difficult almost to recognize
their friends through the dense atmo-
sphere occasioned by the great brewery
at Pimlico. The same, or nearly the
same, might be said of the Cannon-
brewery, in the vicinity of Hyde-park.
He could refer to his hon. and learned
friend near him for his authority, as he
accompanied him when he visited Mr.
Parkes's manufactory at Warwick. At
present, his intention was to move for a
select committee to inquire into the prac-
ticability, and if their report, as he had
no doubt it would be, was favourable, it
would be his next step to propose a de-
claratory law, making the present con-
struction a nuisance, and, of course, sub-
ject to the same legal prosecutions as
other nuisances. He concluded with
moving, That a Select Committee be
appointed to inquire how far it may be
practicable to compel persons using Steam
Engines and Furnaces in their different
works to erect them in a manner less pre-
judicial to public health and public com-
fort, and to report their observations
thereupon to the House." 8
Mr. Denman seconded the motion, and
bore his fullest testimony to the facts
stated by his hon. friend, as to Mr.
Parkes's manufactory at Warwick. He
had seen three furnaces at work, and not
the slightest appearance of smoke. He
had no doubt that the public knowledge
of the thing would of itself be sufficient to
introduce the improvement into general
practice, without the necessity ofrecoarse
to a declaratory law. He paid a high
compliment to Mr. Parkes, for the merit
of this important invention, which was re-
markable for its simplicity. Of its suc-
cessful result the public would soon have
an opportunity ofjudging, by means of its
introduction into the brewery of Messrs.
Barclay and Co., and into other establish-
ments in the metropolis. The country,
he said, was much indebted to his hon.
friend for bringing such questions before
the legislature.
Sir C. M,,rdaunt had also seen the ma-
nufactory of Mr. Parkes, and had admired
the ingenious and at the same time effec-
tual method in which the desirable object
was accomplished. It would, he was sa-
tisfied, be generally adopted as soon as it
was generally known.
Mr. Mills, from his own personal ob-
servation, confirmed all that had been
said in favour of the invention of Mr.

53] Cato Street Conspiracy-George Edwards.

Parkes. He was persuaded that it would inflicted upon their fellow-creatures se-
be most advantageous to the country at vere personal injuries. He could not
large, help observing that, as the case stood at
The motion was then agreed to. present, persons were brought up and ex-
amined in a very slight degree only by
STAGE COACH DRIVERS.] Mr. V.L the court ; and it no one appeared against
A. Taylor said, that the subject to which them, they were discharged. It frequently
he had now to draw the attention of the happened that, by this course of proceed-
House was one of serious importance. ing, many were discharged who were little
The House was no doubt aware, that, ex- deserving of the benefit of the act. The
cepting in cases where death ensued, un- creditors found that they had lost a great
der the present law, a stage-coachman deal of money already; and were unwill-
who drove furiously, to the imminent ing, by appearing, to lose more, besides
hazard of life and limb, could scarcely be the sacrifice of much trouble and time.
punished at all; where a coach was over- In making these observations, however,
turned, and the passengers were so in- he did not-mean to advert to the situation
jured that death was the ultimate conse- of those debtors who now crowded our
quence, the punishment upon the pro- prisons, and who had been led to expect
prietors was only a fine of 101., which relief under the enactments of such a bill
might be mitigated to half the amount. as that passed during last session. He
Whatever might be done to improve the was very willing that they should take
forms of stage-coaches, nothing could be their discharge under it, in the best way
effectual in diminishing the prevailing evil they could.
until the law applied more severely to the Leave was given to bring in the bill.
driver. By the measure lie intended to
propose, lie did not mean at all to invade CATO STREET CONSPIRACY-GEORGE
the common-law right of a passenger, who EDWARDS.] Mr. Alderman Wood said,
had received a personal injury, to proceed tha: I;:e question which lie now thought it
by action against the proprietors, but his duty to bring under the consideration
merely to inflict corporal punishment of the House was one of the greatest im-
upon the drivers, in cases of wilful and portance, and particularly to the House
culpable negligence or misconduct; in itself. He might be wrong in the course
short, that a driver might be indicted as which he had proposed to himself to pur-
for a misdemeanor, and punished by fine sue; but if he was, the Speaker would no
and imprisonment. He moved for leave doubt instruct him what was the proper
to bring in a bill for punishing crimi- mode of bringing the matter forward. He
nally, Diivers of Stage Conches and Car- repeated that he considered it as one in
riages, for accidents occasioned by their which the House was most deeply con-
negligence or misconduct."-Leave given. cerned. He had come to the determina-
Stion of treating it as a breach of privilege ;
INSOLVENT DEBTORS BILL.] Lord and would here very briefly state what
Althorp moved for leave to bring in a bill were the fhcts. Seven persons had r'e-
to amend the Insolvent Debtors act. In cently applied to him, in his official ca-
the present stage lie should only advert pacity of magistrate, for a warrant to take
to two leading distinctions from the pre- up a man stated to be then resident in
sent bill which lie intended to introduce; Fleet-street, whose name was said to be
the first was, to empower commissioners George Edwards. He immediately went
out of court to inquire into the affairs of into a private examination of those indi-
the debtor: and the second was, to grant viduals, with the assistance of a most able
creditors the power of compelling reluc- and worthy brother magistrate (sir W.
tant debtors, when imprisoned, to be re- Domville). Four of the parties deposed
leased by the act. to some very material facts, some o'" vhich,
Mr. Lockhart wished that the subject affecting the safety of that House, lie
should be treated upon as extended a basis should now mention; but others, which
as possible, and that provision should be were detailed at great length, were of too
made against a class of prisoners who had horrible a description for him to repeat.
formerly taken the benefit of the act, They involved a plot, not merely to effect
though it was not intended for their relief; the destruction of that House, and the
he meant those who were confined in con- hon. members within it, but of one of the
sequence of actions for damages, having highest personages in this ki)ngdomi, and

MAY 9, 1820.

55] HOUSE OF COMMONS, Cato- Street Conspiracy-George Edwards. [56
of his majesty's ministers also. He would, be the best mode of proceeding; or whe-
however, confine himself to the facts of their, from the nature of the case, he might
the case as they regarded that House. be justified in asking the House to indulge
He would read the words of the deposi- him with a committee of secrecy, in which
tion. They were to this effect:-" Some case it would not be necessary for him to
time in the year 1819, deponent saw a proceed with his present observations.
man of the name of Edwards going from The other details, however, which he did
one public-house to another, inviting per- not at present feel it his duty to bring be-
sons to unite with him in the execution of fore the House, were of a most terrible
the plots against the government which description, and unfolded plots of the
he intended to bring forward." It then most dreadful character. The persons
went on to state, that one of his great who had made the depositions were re-
plots was this:-He said, that he could spectable persons, and not at all impli-
bring into the House of Commons six or cated in the late legal proceedings, as hav-
eight men very readily, and that it was ing been evidence either for the crown or
not necessary that they should come in for the prisoners. He had had several
clean." By that expression, he meant other persons with him that same morn-
that they might easily enter the House ing, who were all ready to swear that they
with something under their arms; for they knew Edwards to have been engaged in
could so come into the lobby and other these plots, from time to time. He had
parts of the House with books ; no objec- been asked by several individuals, how he
tion would be offered to their passing on intended to proceed in this case; and he
with books under their arms. These could now declare, that his mind was
books were to have been filled with gun- made up to call Edwards before the bar
barrels, cut down to the length of four of the House. Whether, however, he
inches only, which were to be filled with should ask for a committee of secrecy, or
gunpowder, and plugged up at both ends ; proceed in any other way, he was ready
and these implements being thrown down to bring this important business before
in the middle of the House, upon some them, and he thought that he discharged
occasion of a full attendance, when it his duty in so doing. He had not thought
would be in a very crowded state, would it proper to swear those deponents to the
explode with great violence, and cause truth of their allegations, because all the
much destruction. The deposition went acts charged against Edwards were stated
on to show, that Edwards on one occasion to have occurred either in the county of
said, Thistlewood is the boy for us; he's Middlesex or the city of Westminster.
the one to do our work: he will very soon As he never interfered in such a case he
be out of Horsham-gaol." Now the evi- told the parties that they must go before
dence next showed, that two days after, a magistrate either of Westminster or of
Thistlewood did come out of Horsham- the county; or else that they must apply
gaol, and he was introduced to this Ed- for a warrant to lord Sidmouth. He di-
wards at the house of Preston the cobler. reacted them to go to his lordship; and
And that which was the strongest con- promised that, upon procuring the war-
firmation of the whole statement, and in rant, he would get it immediately backed,
his mind proved it beyond all doubt, so as to make it operative within the city
was, that Edwards did get those very of London. He thought the thing a mat-
books made for the purpose; that he ter of such importance, that he took the
procured the gun-barrels, and had them depositions in charge, himself; and order-
cut up. At that time, too, he was sup- ed the witnesses to attend him at lord Sid-
plied with money all ofa sudden, although, mouth's immediately. When he arrived
just before, he had not enough to buy a at the office, it so happened that his lord-
pot of beer, and was compelled to lie upon ship was not there, having left the place
straw. All at once, however, he got sup- only a few minutes before. He left the
plied with cash, and was enabled to pur- depositions with a gentleman whom he
chase several other weapons of defence, had now in his eye, and had received an
and arms, which the deponents spoke of. answer; but he did not think proper now
Now this was the general substance of the to give it. The existence of such a man
depositions as they regarded that House: as this Edwards it was almost impossible
as to the other parts, which related to the to conceive; it was difficult to imagine a
intended taking off of certain individuals, man, going about with all this boldness,
he had hardly satisfied himself what might from public-house to public-bouse, nay,

57] Cato Street Conspiracy-George 1
even from one private house to another,
framing and discoursing of all these plots.
For his own part, however, when he look-
ed at all the facts, he thought it clear,
that Edwards had become connected with
the Cato-street conspirators at a very
early period of their meeting together;
and he pledged himself, that if the House
should think proper to adopt any ques-
tion upon the subject, he would bring for-
ward such evidence as must convict the
man. It was only to beappreheded that
he was not, perhaps, in the country, which
he might have quitted by this time; other-
wise, no doubt, there were hon. gentlemen
who were in possession of him, so that lhe
might be produced. He, therefore, felt it
his duty, under all the circumstances, to
move, That George Edwards do forth-
with attend at the bar of this House."
Mr. Bathurst observed, that the only
question for the House to determine was,
whether that which had been stated by
the worthy alderman called upon them to
take up the matter as a breach of privilege.
The motion did not require any other re-
ference to the circumstances which had
been described by the worthy alderman
than this-could those circumstances be
construed into a breach of privilege? Now
really he besought the House to consider
what sort of precedent they would es-
tablish, if they acquiesced in the worthy
alderman's motion. Here was a man,
who, according to the worthy alderman,
was an accomplice, or rather a principal,
in the conspiracy for which several unfor-
tunate persons had lately forfeited their
lives. According to the worthy alderman,
that man was deeply implicated in the
crime for which those persons had suffer-
ed; and if the motion was agreed to, he
would be called to the bar to be examined
on a charge of having committed a
breach of privilege, when, if the allega-
tions of the worthy alderman were borne
out by the fact, he would be found
to have committed an overt act of trea-
son. If any other course could be
adopted in which the case might be fairly
investigated, he would concur in it; but
if the worthy alderman really believed
that the individual in question had pro-
jected the attempt against that House
which had been described, he would re-
commend the worthy alderman to with-
draw a motion for calling that individual
to the bar, in the supposition that he
would there charge himself with such an

awards. MAY 2, 1820. [58
Mr. Alderman Wood said, he certainly
set out with intimating that he saw great
difficulties in this question; and from his
inexperience in that House it was natu-
rally to be expected that he should feel
that uncertainty, in a case of this kind,
which those of greater parliamentary
knowledge would not experience. He
was, indeed, quite happy to hear the
right hon. gentleman observe, that if
the business were brought before the
House properly, the House would properly
entertain it. He thought it right to
state that he had applied to another
quarter, to get the individual in question
prosecuted, but in that application he had
been disappointed [Hear, hear!]. He
had already stated, that he did not think
proper to read the answer which he had
received when he had felt it his duty to
carry the evidence which had been sub-
mitted to him, to the office of the home
department. He was certainly not satis-
fied with that determination. Several of
the deponents were persons not at all im-
plicated in the late transactions; and their
evidence was, in his opinion, fully suffi-
cient to convict the person in question.
Still, however, he had been told in another
quarter, that it was not so, although the
depositions contained matter, which, of
course, he had not communicated to the
House, but which would make them
shudder if they heard it. The impression
on his mind certainly was, that the
accused person should be taken up. He
took it for granted that the gentlemen
opposite knew where that person was to
be found, and that he could not escape.
Having him in their possession-having it
in their power to bring him forward, he
thought they ought immediately to do so.
Edwards was charged with being the sole
promoter of the treasonable conspiracy
which had been formed. It was declared
to be his practice to lay hold of all the
desperate characters whom he could find,
and to bring them into his diabolical prac-
tices. He thought he could safely pledge
himself to prove by indisputable evidence
that Edwards was the sole plotter and
founder of the Cato-street conspiracy.
He had discharged his duty by bringing
the subject under the consideration of the
House. After what had fallen from the
right hon. gentleman, he should certainly
be disposed to withdraw his motion,
although he was not prepared to propose
any other course of proceeding.
Mr. Hume, as he understood from the

59] HOUSE OF COMMONS, Cato Street Conspiracy-George Edwards. [60

worthy alderman, that it was not the in-
tention of his majesty's ministers to call
the individual in question to account, con-
sidered that the only chance of having
the affair investigated was by an appeal to
the House of Commons, and therefore he
trusted the worthy alderman would not
withdraw his motion. There were two
facts which seemed to him to call impera-
tively for inquiry. It appeared by the
deposition, that the individual in question
did go from house to house, carrying hand
grenades and arms; and that not eight
and forty hours before the 23rd of
February, he urged a man of the name
of Chambers to enter into the plot, as-
suring him that all the necessary instru-
ments of destruction were perfectly pre-
pared. The other and more important
fact was, that it appeared, that being at
one time wholly destitute of money, he
became all at once quite flush, bought
quantities of arms and ammunition, and
furnished other means of urging forward
the purpose of the conspiracy. An in-
quiry by that House would elicit what the
ends of justice required to be disclosed,
namely by whom the person in question
had been supplied. It would also ascer-
tain-what was strongly suspected to be
the case-that the existence of the plot
was known to many persons before the
time of its public detection. These were
points which could not be elucidated in a
court of justice. At least he hoped that mi-
nisters, who were no doubt in possession of
the individual, would pledge themselves
that he should not be permitted to leave the
country until some means were taken of
coming at the truth. He trusted, there-
fore, that the worthy alderman would not
withdraw his motion unless such a pledge
was given.
Mr. Brougham confessed that he wish-
ed the worthy alderman would take the
advice of the right hon. gentleman rather
than that of his lion. friend ; and that lhe
would withdraw his motion. But he
begged to be by no means understood to
join in the expression of levity, which,
very much to his surprise and pain, had
been drawn from some hon. members by
the grave and extraordinary statements
which had been made-statements which,
in his opinion, were not at all of a charac-
ter to provoke laughter. He was cer-
tainly not disposed to say that the present
was precisely an occasion on which it was
fitting for the House to resort to the law
of privilege; but at the same time, if the

alleged facts were true, he could have no
more doubt than he had of his existence,
that it was in contemplation to commit
the grossest breach of privilege, or that
which was ten thousand times worse than
any breach of privilege-the destruction
of one of the Houses of Parliament. This
was a branch of high treason. If perpe-
trated, it was by the law high treason; if
plotted, and not carried into actual exe-
cution, it was a high misdemeanor. The
worthy alderman was in nowise open to
ridicule for calling on the House to con-
sider that as a breach of privilege, an
inquiry into which, as the higher offence,
he had been unable to procure. When
any person was called to the bar
for a libel on the House, he was required
to inculpate himself. But certainly lie
did not think it would be a discreet use of
the law of privilege to call on the
individual in question as if he were merely
charged with such an offence as a libel.
But was the act with which that person
was charged nothing? Was it no of-
fence ? Was he not accused in the depo-
sitions described by the worthy alderman
of originating a serious plot, the object
of which was, to come with hand grenades
and other combustible matters, and attack
the House of Commons when full of
members? Good God! Was that a sub-
ject for ridicule and levity ? When a
conspiracy was, detected, the purpose of
which was to throw hand grenades into
the houses of ministers, it was held to be
high treason, and men lost their lives for
having joined in it. Was the House of
Commons to listen with levity and impa-
tience to the disclosure of a similar inten-
tion with respect to themselves? The
sooner that feeling was got rid of the
better. He supported the right hon.
gentleman's recommendation to the wor-
thy alderman to withdraw his motion, be-
cause he did not think that it was in a fit
and proper shape; and by no means be-
cause he did not think that any thing fur-
ther need be done in the business. On
the contrary, it appeared to him to be ex-
tremely material that the House should
take some step to procure the informa-
tion to which the worthy alderman had
furnished a clue. And why? Because
there was evidently no other way of ob-
taining justice. Because the worthy al-
derman, corresponding in his capacity of
magistrate with the noble lord at the head
of the home department, had laid before
that noble lord the evidence which he had

j Cato Street Conspiracy-George Edwards.

scribed, and had received from that
)ble lord an answer that it was not
seemed proper to bring Edwards to trial
t all. He again begged he might not be
nistaken. He by no means said that
t would have been proper to try Edwards
for high treason. He by no means said
that that man's evidence had not been
wisely acted on, or that he himself had
not been prudently employed. He denied
the truth of some of the worthy alder-
man's statements on the subject. He de-
nied that Edwards was the sole instigator
of the Cato-street conspiracy. He be-
lieved that there were other persons
at least as deeply implicated. But
he believed that Edwards, having been
employed by government as a spy, like
other persons who had on former occa-
sions acted in that capacity, was not sa-
tisfied with merely giving information, and
that he employed himself in inciting per-
sons, already guilty, into the commission
of further crimes. He by no means blamed
government for employing Edwards as a
spy; or for acting on his information; or
for withholding him as a witness; or for
abstaining from prosecuting him. For
those four things he did not blame
them. As long as such men as Thistle-
wood and the others existed, government
were, in his opinion, not only justified in
employing persons to watch their pro-
ceedings, but would be highly culpable if
they neglected to do so. The necessity
for the employment of spies was lament-
able; but so was the employment of the
executioner of the law. As long as crimes
continued to be perpetrated, so long must
they continue to be punished. Both oc-
cupations were odious; but in his opinion
no man was entitled to blame government
for employing the odious informer who
was not prepared to blame them equally
for employing the odious executioner.
There was, however, one limitation to this
doctrine. He who employed spies took
upon himself a most difficult and delicate
and responsible office. He was deeply
answerable to the country and to the ad-
ministration of justice, if he did not take
the greatest care to select such men as
would only give information, and not in-
instigate to the commission of crime. The
existence of such wretches as Thistlewood
and Ings rendered the employment of
spies necessary; but let it be at the same
time remembered, that the existence of
such wretches as Thistlewood and Ings
rendered the employment of instigators to

crime equally unnecessary. Having ex-
plained himself so far, the House would
perhaps permit him to add, that although
he did not blame government either for
having employed Edwards as a spy-for
having acted on his information-for
having withdrawn him as a witness-or for
having abstained from prosecuting him-
yet, it it did appear from the evidence
now adduced, that that individual went
beyond his commission as an informer,
that he employed himself as an instigator,
and that he incited others to the perpe-
tration of a separate and grave offence, not
comprehended in the acts which had been
the recent subject of criminal investiga-
tion, justice would not be satisfied unless
he was brought to trial for such new and
serious offence, or unless very ample
grounds were stated to the House for
waving such a proceeding.
Mr. Canning said, that whatever might
be the ultimate decision of the House on
the subject, whether they would deter-
mine on entering into the investigation
of it or not, there was one point on which
all must agree, namely the inutility of
discussing it at a time, and on a ques-
tion, the decision of which could lead
to no satisfactory result. The hon. and
learned gentleman seemed to have col-
lected what he was sure the House had
not, namely, that there was a disposition
on the part of some honourable members
to treat the whole affair with levity and
ridicule. Really he had not seen any
such disposition. He was sure that no
such disposition had been manifested,
either by himself or his honourable friends
about him. As little could he plead
guilty to the other charge, of a pre-dis-
position to accuse the hon. and learned
gentleman of joining the popular cry
against informers-a subject on which
the hon. and learned gentleman had just
made the most just and manly observa-
tions. He could assure the hon. and
learned gentleman, that he never enter-
tained such a pre-disposition; and if he
had, it must have been entirely .removed
by the hon. and learned gentleman's can-
did statement of his opinion. On that
statement, without wishing to add a sin-
gle word to it, he was perfectly content
to rest the defence, not only of the pre-
sent or of any particular government,
but of all governments that had ever
existed in this or in any other civilized
country, for taking the means which cir
cumstances rendered necessary, to defes

iMAY 2, 1820. [61-1

by the prostitution of wicked men, the
plots of men as wicked. All that he
rose for, was to submit to the worthy
alderman, as the motion in its present
shape could not be usefully discussed,
the expediency of not pressing it at
the present time. It would be for the
worthy alderman to consider whether or
not he would bring the subject again
before the House in some other form.
On the expediency or inexpediency of
such a proceeding, he would not ven-
ture to offer any opinion. He only en-
treated the House not to enter into a
discussion wholly unnecessary at the pre-
sent moment, and from which no bene-
ficial result could by possibility ensue.
Mr. Alderman Wood expressed his wil-
lingness to withdraw the motion. He
begged, however, to say, that he thought
in the manner in which he introduced
it, he had avoided any thing justly ex-
ceptionable. He had abstained from read-
ing the deposition, for he should be sorry
that the dreadful allegations which it
contained should at present go forth to
the world; and he had therefore confined
himself to a description of that part of
it which most nearly touched the House.
At the present moment he was not pre-
pared to bring the motion forward in
another shape, but he thought he should
do so in the course of a day or two,
and that he should move for the appoint-
ment of a secret committee to investigate
the case.
Mr. Canning disclaimed any intention
of imputing the slightest blame to the
worthy alderman. He certainly disagreed
with the worthy alderman as to the ex-
pediency of his motion, but he saw no-
thing whatever to criticise in the man-
ner in which it had been brought for-
The motion was then withdrawn.

CIVIL LIST.] The House havingre-
solved itself into a committee on the
Civil List acts,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said,
that he would, on this occasion, merely
move a series of resolutions relative to
the civil list, on the understanding which
had previously taken place, that the ques-
tion should be discussed on the bringing
up of the report on Friday next. He
then moved, That it is the opinion of
this committee, that for the support of
his majesty's household, and of the honour
and dignity of the crown, there be granted

Civil List. [64
to his majesty, during his life, in that
part of the United Kingdom called Eng-
land, a revenue of 850,0001. to commence
from the demise of his late majesty;-
and that there be granted, for the like
purpose, in that part of the United King-
dom called Ireland, a revenue of 207,0001.
to commence from the same time."
Sir H. Parnell was of opinion, that
the sum now proposed was too large to
permit the House to come to a vote on
it at once, as a mere matter of course.
He conceived, that, before they were
called on to grant such a sum, papers
should be laid before the House for
their information. It appeared to him
that they did not possess that extent of
knowledge on this subject which would
enable them, in considering the question,
to do their duty to the country. They
were directed, by the Speech from the
throne, to provide for the civil govern-
ment, and for his majesty's household.
They were also informed that the state
of the hereditary revenues was to be
considered by parliament. Now it ap-
peared to him, that they ought not to
discuss those important matters of finance
without full information. They ought to
know,specifically, what theexpenses of the
civilgovernmentamountedto. Thatwould
afford an excellent opportunity to the
House for carrying into effect that re-
trenchment which was necessary in the
present state of the finances of the coun-
try. With respect to the household, it
was improper, he thought, to continue
a system, against which so many objec-
tions had been made by the highest au-
thority. When he said this, he need only
allude to the celebrated speech of Mr.
Burke. As to the hereditary revenues,
it was a grave matter of consideration by
what mode those revenues could be made
productive. There was a considerable
expenditure incurred in their collection,
and opinions had been stated by the com-
mittee of finance, that the House had an
opportunity of making great savings under
that head. Other matters ought also to
be brought under the consideration of the
House; for instance, the revenues deriva-
ble from the duchy of Lancaster and the
principality of Wales. All these matters
should be looked into before the House
did any thing with reference to these par-
ticular resolutions. He knew not what
papers might be necessary to enable him
to take a just view of the subject; but,
undoubtedly, a considerable number was

65] Civil List.
wanted; and, if time were given, he and
others would come down prepared to ask
for those documents which would afford
the House very great assistance.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said,
it was generally understood that, in the
first instance, the resolutions would be
agreed to without observation, leaving the
discussion on them to a future period.-
The number of members who had left the
House clearly proved that this feeling ge-
nerally prevailed.
Colonel Davies fully understood, and so
did the whole House, that the arrange-
ment of the civil-list was to proceed on
the basis of the act of 1816. That arrange-
ment provided a sum of 1,063,0001. a-year.
From it was to be deducted the Windsor
establishment, the allowances to his late
majesty's privy purse, &c.; and, therefore
it ought to be estimated at 500,0001., in-
stead of upwards of 1,100,000.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said,
that certain English allowances must be
confirmed and continued; but still, after
making the deductions alluded to by the
hon. gentleman there would be a clear
saving to the public, except so far as it
might be deemed proper hereafter to make
some alteration.
Colonel Davies said, his having fallen
into this error was an additional argument
in favour of delay. It showed how un-
prepared members were on this subject,
and, he trusted, therefore that ministers
would not press it forward.
Mr. Canning said, the general under-
standing of the House was, that these re-
solutions should pass without discussion,
and that the debate should be taken on the
report. He was aware, in strict argu-
ment, that there was nothing in this to bind
gentlemen from considering the question;
but if, on every occasion, the feeling and
opinion of each individual in the House
were to be taken on a point of this kind,
there would be an end of courteous un-
derstanding and accommodation. He was
sure the right hon. gentleman opposite
would bear him out when he said that it
was thought much more convenient not to
take the debate in this stage of the pro-
ceeding. He was quite convinced that
neither his right, hon. friend, nor any
other person in the situation of a respon-
sible minister, would offer, for permanent
settlement, not a proposal of his own, but
of those whom he had consulted, without
giving a fair opportunity for the discussion
of its merits. If there were gentlemen

MAY 2, 1820. [66
present who were desirous not to be con-
sidered parties to the regulation of which
he had spoken, they might proceed with
the debate to-night, without prejudice to
that which was reserved for a future day.
Mr. Tierney felt himself called on to
draw the attention of the House to what
had passed on a former occasion. He was
the person who put certain questions to
the chancellor of the exchequer. He
asked, whether it was the right hon. gen-
tleman's intention, previously to the in-
troduction of the resolutions, to refer any
papers to the House, as the ground-work
of that which he meant to propose ? The
right hon. gentleman answered, that no
such mode of proceeding was in con-
templation, but that he meant at once to
proceed by way of resolution, and by that
means to point out to parliament the ob-
jects he had in view. He (Mr.T.) stated
that it was a matter of great importance,
and, therefore, he was desirous not to go
to the detail unprepared. He, in conse-
quence, suggested, that, when the resolu-
tions were proposed, and the statement of
the right hon. gentleman was laid before
them, nothing should be done to provoke
a debate, but that the House should
merely be put in possession of the line
which government intended to pursue.
On this occasion, he confessed he felt
disappointed that the right hon. gentleman
had not declared the ground on which he
meant to proceed, instead of proposing a
resolution having for its object the appli-
cation of a gross sum. In this state of
things, no gentleman was bound to ab-
stain from debating the question now;
and he appealed to the other side of the
House, as well as to his own, whether the
understanding amounted to any thing
more than he had stated. He regretted
that the right hon. gentleman had not
coupled his proposition with some state-
ment of the grounds on which he meant
to act. However, in agreeing to the re-
solution now, he did not consider himself
bound to take any particular course at a
future day. When that period arrived, it
would be open to any gentleman to move
an amendment, to the proposition of the
chancellor of the exchequer. One ques-
tion he would now ask. The civil list
was, he understood, to be settled on the
basis of the settlement of 1816. Were no
other deductions to be made in the new
arrangement but the sum applicable to
the maintenance of the establishment at
Windsor-the sum applicable to the privy

purse-and the sum applicable to the
payment of the Custos? Were these the
only sums to be deducted ? and were the
other charges to remain precisely as they
were in 1816 ?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said,
that the right hon. gentleman had accu-
rately conceived the purport of the reso-
lution before the House. It referred to
the whole revenue granted in 1816, with
the exception of the expense of the
Windsor establishment, 60,0001. for the
privy purse, and 10,0001. given to the
Custos. The total saving would be
130,0001., excepting a temporary charge
for his late majesty's servants.
Mr. Tierney asked, what became of the
sum of 58,0001. which was paid to herlate
majesty ?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said,
that the provision for her late majesty came
from the consolidated fund, independent
of the civil list.
Lord Archibald Hamilton said, he was
anxious to know what the views of mi-
nisters were on the whole subject, before
he acted on a part of it, particularly on
that part which he considered as by far the
most critical. He spoke with reference
to the queen. He wished to know in
what proportion her majesty was to be
provided for ; he wished to know in what
manner the gentlemen opposite meant to
introduce that part of the civil list at all
to their consideration. At that moment
her income had wholly ceased, she had no
subsistence. He did not mean to say
any thing to promote premature discus-
sion. He would not, at present, discuss
so delicate a topic as that which he had
glanced at, because it would be very em-
barrassing to him as well as to the House.
At the same time, he feared that the
course they were now pursuing would
prevent him from introducing it at a fu-
ture period. If he were called on to vote
these resolutions to-day, and to debate
them when the report was brought up,
he might be told that that was the time
for considering the details, and not for
arguing on the merits and principles of
the system. If, however, the whole sub-
ject would be open for discussion at a
future period, he had no objection to let
the resolutions pass.
Mr. Canning said, that undoubtedly
the noble lord would find every point
connected with the arrangement of this
question open to discussion, not only with
reference to form, but to sense and un-

Civil List. [68
derstanding, whenever the subject was
hereafter brought forward. He was per-
fectly right in supposing that the present
was the proper stage for explaining the
scope and object of the measure, but the
departure from form did not rest with his
(Mr. C.'s) side of the House. The ordi-
nary course would be to enter into the
whole plan and object of government;
but it was proposed to ministers to pass
over this whole stage without discussion,
in order to convenience gentlemen oppo-
site, and to take the debate on the report.
It was a little hard, therefore, to ask
ministers to account for the course that
had been pursued. They, in courtesy,
adopted the mode of proceeding that had
been pointed out to them. It would be
also a little hard to refuse his right hon.
friend the vote this day because he had
agreed to an understanding, proposed by
the other side, not to discuss the question,
now. He was sure the noble lord did not
mean to take an unfair advantage of mi-
nisters, and they had as little idea to take
any advantage of him. Many opportu-
nities would occur when those resolutions
were proceeding through their different
stages, and the bills founded on them
were in progress through the House, to
go at length both into the detail and prin-
ciple of the question.
Lord A. Hamilton expressed himself
satisfied by this explanation.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said,
the provision for the queen might be
charged on the consolidated fund, in the
same way as had been done with respect
to her late majesty.
Mr. Hume did not approve of the plan
now proposed. In 1815-16, when an
inquiry into the civil list was called for,
it was shut out, and they were then told
that a time would occur when it would
he proper to investigate the hereditary
revenues, and those branches over which
the House had no control. The House
had therefore a right to take into consi-
deration the state of the king's separate
hereditary revenue; the revenue, for in-
stance, derived from Scotland, which
produced 80,0001. or 90,0001.; the droits
of the Admiralty ; the sums received from
the 41 per cent duties; and the monies
collected in Gibraltar. Consistently with
the speech from the throne, the estimates
laid before the House should be of the
most economical description; but he
would contend that the estimates now
submitted to their consideration were of

69J Civil List.
the most extravagant kind. The report
of the finance committee said, that the
56th of Geo. 3rd, fixed the different esti-
mates. It was then declared, that the
ensuing income should be estimated on
an average of the three last years, 1813,
1814, and 1815-three years of the most
extravagant expenditure that was to be
found in the annals of British finance.
He therefore argued, that in proposing to
the House to adopt the extravagant esti-
mate of 1816, which was admitted to be
greater than that of 1813, 1814, 1815,
ministers were not attending to the direc-
tions of his majesty, and were neglecting
a system of economy which ought to be
pursued in every department of the state.
He wished to know what the expenditure
was, under different items, since the pass.
ing of the act of 1816; he should also
wish to be informed what the total amount
of the expenditure for the civil govern-
ment of this country was; because they
were now going to vote, under the single
head of Civil List," a sum that did not,
in point of fact, amount to more than
one-fourth of the civil expenditure. He
alluded to all those items that were de-
frayed from the civil list, at the accession
.of his late majesty. By various acts
passed since that period, the civil list had
been freed from a charge of 600,0001.;
and notwithstanding that, they were called
on to grant a greater sum than was voted
at the accession of his late majesty. This,
in the present state of the country, was
highly improper. Instead of such a pro-
ceeding, he had expected that the right
hon. gentleman would have submitted a
proposal of retrenchment beginning with
his majesty, and going on to reduce the
salary of every public officer of the coun-
try. Such was the situation of the fi-
nances, that unless a considerable reduc-
tion was made in the expenditure of the
country, it was impossible they could go
on without flying from speculation to spe-
culation, and thus adding to the immense
debt by which the country was weighed
down. Much as he admired the system
of this country, he thought there was
nothing that could not be bought too
dear; and he believed that the civil go-
vernment of this country was too dear.
Every one who wished for a reduction of
his expenses, reduced first his own esta-
blishment, and began by curtailing the
expenses of his servants. We were in the
state of a bankrupt, and if ministers meant
*any thing by economy, they ought to be-

MAI 2, 1820. [70
gin with the first great establishment in
the country. The civil list had increased
from year to year, and the average of
1816 was greater than that of the three
preceding years. That was the greatest
period of expenditure; and the reduction
in the expenditure, together with the re-
turn to cash payments, had since increas-
ed the value of money, some said 30 per
cent, and he believed at least 25 per cent.
To propose, therefore, to give 850,0001.,
as in 1816, was equivalent to proposing
1,000,0001. sterling now. To begin with
the first establishment in the country was,
therefore, the duty of ministers. Although
they were above the example of any
neighboring country, yet they would do
well to consider, that in a neighboring
country ministers had proposed such a
reduction as ministers in this country
ought now to adopt. If ministers did not
act so, they would in fact add 250,0001.
to the establishment of 1816. The com-
mittees of 1804, 1812, and 1816, had as-
cribed the increase of expense in his ma-
jesty's household to the rise of prices of
all kinds. A reduction of prices would
be the necessary consequence of a return
to cash payments, and therefore the esta-
blishment of the civil list ought to be ac-
cordingly reduced. He, for one, consi-
dered the present mode of proceeding
wrong in principle; it was not doing jus-
tice to the House or to the country. After
reducing his majesty's establishment, the
salary of every individual ought to be
proportionally reduced. Now they had
it in their own power to effect this reduc-
tion; and if they availed themselves pro-
perly of the opportunity, although he did
not expect such a relief as some con-
templated, he did believe that consider-
able relief could be afforded to the coun-
try. So far, therefore, from keeping their
pledge to that House and to the country,
ministers had violated it to both. All he
could do was to protest against such a
proceeding. He approved highly of what
the hon. member for Winchelsea had said
the first night on the subject of the here-
ditary revenues; for no money ought to
be given to the Crown but what was un-
der the control of that House. Inquiry
had formerly been resisted upon this sub-
ject; and it was always said to them,
" Wait till a change takes place, and then
you may enter freely into the inquiry."
This had been the bargain made with the
House; but, now that the clhage had
taken place, no inquiry was allowed.

Sir H. Parnell thought, that as fre-
quent opportunities ought to be given for
discussing this subject, the report ought
to be recommitted after the subject should
have been debated. This was the only
mode of doing justice to a question in-
volving so many details. Great prejudice
and injury to the public would arise from
any other mode of proceeding. He cer-
tainly would have opposed the accommo-
dation now acted upon, if he had been in
the House when it was agreed to. In-
stead of considering this subject in a com-
mittee of the whole House, which the
right hon. gentleman would not allow, all
the papers and documents on the subject
ought, in his opinion, to have been re-
ferred to a select committee.
Mr. Brougham rose to put his hon.
friend, the member for Aberdeen, right.
There were other branches of revenue,
besides the hereditary revenues of the
Crown, which he wished to see accounted
for. The hereditary revenues, his hon.
friend must be aware, his majesty had
been graciously pleased to give up to the
consideration of parliament. But there
were others, such as the Scotch revenue,
which was indeed very small, that had
been alluded to by him. He conceived,
as to the accommodation, that it was only
a parliamentary mode of introducing the
resolutions into the House, in order to
get them printed. He approved of the
proposal of the hon. baronet to have the
report recommitted, but he considered
himself bound not to object to the mode
of proceeding at present proposed.
The resolution was agreed to, as were
the following: 2. That the said reve-
nue for the support of his majesty's hous-
hold, and of the honour and dignity of
the Crown, be charged upon, and made
payable out of, the consolidated fund of
the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
Ireland. 3. That the several hereditary
revenues in that part of the United King-
dom called England, which, by an act of
the first year of his late majesty's reign,
were, during his said majesty's life, car-
ried to and made part of the aggregate
fund, and have since, under the act of
the twenty-seventh year of his late ma-
jesty's reign, been carried to and made a
part of the consolidated fund of Great
Britain; and that the several hereditary
revenues in that part of the United King-
dom called Ireland, which, by an act of
the parliament of Ireland made in the
thirty-third year of his late majesty's

Wool Tax. [72
reign, were carried to and made a part of
the consolidated fund in Ireland, shall,
from the said demise, and during the
life of his present majesty, be carried to
the account of the consolidated fund of
the United Kingdom of Great Britain and

Wednesday, May 3.
WOOL TAX.] Mr. Stuart Wortley pre-
sented a petition from the worsted manu-
facturers of Nottingham, against the duty
imposed during the last parliament on the
importation of Foreign Wool. The same
feeling pervaded, he well knew, the West
Riding of Yorkshire; but as the question
would be most probably brought before
the House in a definite shape for its re-
peal, all he would say at present was, that
he considered the imposition of that duty
as a most impolitic and cruel measure.
Lord Milton said, that he also had a
petition to present from the merchants,
manufacturers, and others interested in the
wool trade of Leeds and its neighbour-
hood, against the wool tax, and praying
for its repeal. The character and res-
pectability of the signatures to that peti-
tion were the best evidence of the pres-
sure of the evil against which they peti-
tioned. The petition had not originated
at a public meeting, because the persons
who were most solicitous to press the
repeal of that impolitic duty, wished to
avoid any course likely to increase the
ferment and agitation which existed on
this subject in the West Riding of York-
shire. The tax of which they complained,
was not only in contradiction of every
principle of political economy, but was
directly contrary to that fundamental
system of policy which for years had pre-
vailed in this country, and to the conti-
nuance of which the faith of parliament
was pledged-pledged, he would say, by
the immemorial policy of its government
-a policy which every statesman who
viewed the question would see was the
unfailing source of wealth and power.
When he reflected also that that duty was
imposed on the raw material, the manu-
facture of which constituted the employ-
ment of a great population then suffering
under the severest pressure of distress
and penury, he must add, that such a
measure was not alone impolitic, but cruel
and unfeeling. Hle could moreover state,
that as a measure of revenue, it had alto-

73] Civil List.
gether failed-as fail it must, when it was
considered that a very great proportion
of the article on which it was laid, must,
by that operation, be altogether excluded
from the markets of the country. He as-
sured the House, thatavery importantcon-
tract for the clothing of a great part of the
Russian soldiery, was actually lost to this
country in consequence of the operation of
that impolitic measure. Heknew the house
to whom the contract had been offered
under certain stipulated terms which, in
consequence of the late tax, they assured
him they were compelled to decline. If
it was a measure for the protection of the
wool growers, it was for them to look at
such effects, and to calculate what must
such a system eventually produce. By
the authenticated returns from Yorkshire
.it appeared, that the woollen manufacture
there had diminished to the extent of one-
sixth, and other branches of trade con-
nected with it were equally depressed.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer ob-
served, that when the question was brought
before the House in the definite manner
to which allusion had been made, he was
sure it would receive the fullest consider-
ation. He had, however, in answer to
the argument of the noble lord, who con-
tended, that as a measure of revenue, it
had wholly failed, to say, that it had not
yet been fairly tried. It came partially
into operation in October last, was only
extended in January, while at the time
there was a large stock of foreign wool in
the market.
Ordered to lie on the table.

CIVIL LIsT.] Sir H. Parnell rose, to
move for certain papers connected with
the Civil List, under a conviction that, if
the subject were thoroughly examined, a
considerable sum might be saved to the
country. The present was the only op-
portunity of enforcing a strict inquiry,
because the House was aware that, as
soon as the bargain had been completed,
the answer would be ready, that the mat-
ter was concluded, and that no farther
investigation could be had. He was
anxious that the report of 1815 should
be laid upon the table, that all members
might be put in possession of the nature
of the settlement of the civil list in the
year following: if it could be reprinted,
it would be a still greater advantage, as it
formed the basis of the present plan. In
addition, he wished for papers to show
what increase had been made to the civil

MAY 3, 1820. [74
list, and what charges formerly paid out
of it had been transferred to other funds.
The most important, however, would re-
late to the total expense of the support of
the civil government of these countries.
The sums paid out of the civil list for this
purpose formed but a small part of the
whole, as altogether it amounted to about
2,000,0001. a year, including the votes of
parliament, and what was called the fee-
fund. By far the greater part of this ex-
penditure was devoted to the support of
official establishments. The House ought
also to be in possession of some return
showing the expense of collecting the he-
reditary revenues of the crown. The
finance committee had reported that a
great saving might be made in this de-
partment; and, to ascertain the correct-
ness of this statement, he was desirous of
returns from the alienation-office, the fee-
farm rents'-office, the crown-lands'-office,
and the woods-and-forests'-office. By an
act of the Irish parliament, in the 33rd
Geo. 3rd, on the demise of the crown, the
hereditary revenues in Ireland were to be
computed, and the civil list settled ac-
cordingly. The last documents he should
require would refer to the revenue and
emolument belonging to the duchy of
Lancaster, and the other duchies and
counties palatine. He then moved a long
list of papers, to obtain the information
he thought necessary.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer ob-
served, that the greater part of the inform-
ation required by the hon. baronet was
already before the House in different
shapes, but it could not be collected and
copied without such a loss of time as
would be extremely inconvenient on a
measure of so much importance and ur-
gency. For the purpose of economical
reduction, he could not see why it was
necessary to enter now into a full exami-
nation of the official establishments paid
out of the civil list. Many other offices
came under the head of civil contin-
gencies, which were annually brought
before parliament. As to the report of
1815, he thought there could be no diffi-
culty in obtaining a sufficient number of
copies of it to inform all who would be
willing to go through its voluminous de-
tails, and he did not think it necessary to
reprint it. He moved the previous ques-
Mr. Tierney said, that it would be im-
possible to come to a vote on the resolu-
tions of the chancellor of the exchequer

without considerable inquiry, and some
farther communications from ministers as
to facts and details. Although those re-
solutions had passed last night, he desired
to be understood as not having waved his
claim to papers of the kind now required,
because he was persuaded that they were
Mr. Calcraft hoped that the hon. ba-
ronet would not withdraw his motion, and
give way, unless the chancellor of the
exchequer would undertake that the re-
port of 1815 should be reprinted. He
believed it contained all the information
required by this motion.
Sir H. Parnell added, that he would
not trouble the House to divide, if that
report were reprinted.
The question was then put, and the pre-
vious question was carried without a divi-
sion. The chancellor of the exchequer
then moved, That the report of 1815,
on which the establishment of the civil
list in 1816 was founded, be printed."
Mr. Tierney supposed, that the question
would be set at rest before gentlemen had
that report in their hands. They were to
decide first, and have the report after-
wards. Besides, he wished for additional
information. He wanted to know what
had been done since 1816.
The motion was then agreed to.

said, he was anxious to submit to the
House a motion respecting the expenses
of the Civil List; and, in the outset, he was
able to state, that the objections which
the chancellor of the exchequer had made
to the proposition of the hon. baronet,
would not at all apply to any one of the
motions he meant to offer. The House,
he was persuaded, from what he had ob-
served this day, would be desirous to ob-
tain all the information possible respecting
the income which his late majesty pos-
sessed; not only with respect to what
parliament granted as a civil list, but also
with reference to other exclusive and
reserved revenues. The House was aware
that in the report now ordered to be
printed there was a statement of the total
receipts and expenditure of the civil list,
from the accession of his late majesty to
the month of January, 1815. The object
of one of his motions was, to complete
that return, and to produce what did not
appear from any papers before the House
-a return of the expenditure from the
5th of January, 1815, to the 5th of Ja-

Civil List Revenues. [76
nuary, 1820. This account would not be
so difficult in making up as gentlemen
might imagine. The total of the expen-
diture of the years preceding the last
could be given in about nine lines; and the
account of the last year, up to the 5th of
January, 1820, might contain the detail
of the whole payments on the establish-
ment. It must be in the recollection of
gentlemen, that, since the civil list was
divided into classes, two or three altera-
tions had taken place, particularly in
1804 and 1816. On those occasions there
had been a transfer from one account to
another of certain sums, improperly
charged under various heads. The civil
list had also been freed fiom considerable
burthens of different descriptions, which
were transferred to the consolidated fund,
and were payable out of it. If, therefore,
gentlemen had an opportunity of examin-
ing the expenditure of the period to
which he had adverted, under the various
heads, they would be better enabled tocon-
sider the grounds on which any alteration
might now be effected. The payments,
at present, were very complicated, and he
could not see, as the civil list was merely
intended for the support of his majesty's
household, and did not include the whole
civil expenditure, why a more accurate
classification should not take place. No
less than an expense of 600,0001., totally
exclusive of the civil list, was incurred
by the civil expenditure. From the ac-
cession of his late majesty, up to the
period to which the report of 1815 ex-
tended, the money voted by the House of
Commons, in aid of the civil list, amounted
to 53,000,0001.; but nearly 9,000,000/.
had been paid from the consolidated fund,
on account of items separated from the
civil list, and, strictly speaking, forming
a portion of that list at the accession of
George 3rd. They could not, therefore,
know whit the exact amount of the civil
list was, unless they had before them the
six classes into which the payments were
divided. They would then be able to de-
cide on the alterations that should be
made. .He considered it quite an anoma-
ly that the right lion. gentleman who
filled the chair of that House should be
paid from the 2nd class of the civil list
the sum of 1,5001., and that another source
should be applied to in order to complete
his income. The payment of the salary
of every individual should be simplified.
And if that principle were followed, not
only with respect to the civil list, but the

771 Civil List Revenues. MAY 3, 1820. [78
fee-fund, and various other departments, last years, during which the expenditure
it would be infinitely better than the sys- was very great." Now, as the establish-
tem now adopted. Some establishments ment of 1816 was formed on a scale the
were paid from four, five, and even six most extravagant that had been known
sources; and it was actually necessary to since the settlement of the civil list, the
have additional establishments to keep the House ought to inquire, whether the two
accounts. The consequence was, that acts, ordering a return to be made to the
members of that House were prevented House when any excess took place, had
from understanding how the payments been complied with. He was not sure
were made. As the information which that such a return had been made, and he
he sought could not be obtained by any thought there could be no objection to
other means but by the production of the its being produced. The second motion
accounts, he could see no good reason was for a return of the amount of all
for keeping them from the House. They payments under the head of civil contin-
ought, he conceived, to be placed in the agencies, which do not form part of the
hands of members before the discussion ordinary charges of the civil list, in each
on the civil list took place. He could year from the 5th January 1815 to the
not, therefore, contemplate that the 5th January 1820; as also, an estimate
chancellor of the exchequer would conti- of demands outstanding and unsatisfied
nue that course of opposition on which thereof at that date; and also, of all sums
he had previously acted. He meant first granted by parliament to discharge the
to move for "an account showing the same." When the House had in their
amount in totals which has been paid for possession the first account-that which
each class, since the 5th January 1815, he had just read-and another for which
in respect to the charge of the civil list he meant to move, gentlemen would be
in each year from that period to the 5th able, at one glance, to see the whole of
January 1820, stating in detail the pay- the receipts and expenditure of the civil
ments for the last year; and also, an esti- list. The account had already been
mate of the demands outstanding and un- brought up from the accession to 1815,
satisfied on account thereof on the 5th and his motion would carry it on to Ja-
January 1820." If ministers intended to nuary 1820. The last document for
inform the House of what had been do- which he would move was, an abstract
ing, under the 56 Geo. 3rd, this account account showing the amounts in totals,
would not be refused. In each preceding under each head, which have been issued
settlement of the civil list the regulations in each year, from 5th January 1815 to
were as strict as possible; every means the 5th January 1820, from the exche-
appeared to be adopted to prevent any quer, out of the consolidated fund, or out
exceeding of the estimate laid before the of money specially granted by parliament
House. But still it appeared that in for allowances to the several branches of
every instance there was an exceeding, the royal family, for the judges, &c. in
The estimate of 1786 was departed from, England and Wales, and for all services
and that of 1804 was, in like manner, set which were formerly paid out of the civil
at nought. There was an exceeding on list revenues, but from which the civil
every item. The House ought now to list has at various times been relieved."
know whether the settlement under the If these accounts were produced, the
act of the 56 of Geo. Srd had been strictly House would have at one view the whole
complied with, or whether that estimate amount of sums chargeable on the civil
was also exceeded. He did not know list which had been paid during the late
that an exceeding had taken place, nei- reign.-The hon. gentleman then moved
other could he tell whether the whole of for the first account.
the sum granted by that act had been The Chancellor of the Exchequer oppos-
expended. He would state why; be- ed the motion. The documents called for
cause, in many of the items, under several could not, he said, be useful to the hon.
of the classes, the amount was very much gentleman for the object he had in view.
altered, compared with that which was The act of 1816 required that, if there
the average of the three years preceding was an additional charge on the civil list
1816. The committee that drew up the exceeding the estimate by the sum of
report of 1815-16 said, the estimate 16,000/., an account of such exceeding
had been referred to them, and seemed to should be laid before parliament. Now,
be drawn up on the average of the three no such return had been made; and if

the hon. gentleman thought that the act
of parliament had been violated, Let him
bring his charge forward, and ministers
would be ready to meet it. He was pre-
pared to say, that since the passing of the
act of 1816, the issue had been regular,
and no excess whatever had taken place.
Under these circumstances, hewouldmove
the previous question.
Mr. Hume called on the right hon.
gentleman to point out where one account
connected with the civil list receipts and
expenditure since 1816 was to be found.
He thought it was most unfair to refuse
this information, since individuals would
not, hereafter, be able to alter the ar-
rangement, as they might now do, if they
were in possession of those accounts.
The system had been changed by two
acts of parliament; but ministers did not
always keep within the letter of those
acts. According to the report of 1815,
the sum of 3,747,0001. had been voted,
to make up for certain violations of acts
of parliament. He did not know that the
whole amount granted by parliament had
been paid; neither could he tell whether,
of that large sum, 100,0001. or 200,0001.
might not remain unspent. On these
points he desired information; and he
hoped the House would not allow a mo-
tion of this kind, so palpable and distinct,
to be rejected. If information on this im-
portant subject was to be thus refused in
limine, it would be useless to enter into
any discussion upon it.
Mr. fluskisson said, that the right of
calling on ministers, under all circum-
stances, to produce accounts which the
lion. gentleman seemed to think existed,
was a new doctrine in parliament. He
could quote a very high authority on this
subject, that of the late Mr. Fox, who
had distinctly stated, that, unless the
Crown came to parliament for assistance
in aid of the civil list, gentlemen were not
at liberty to call for an account of its
application and expenditure. They had
just been told that the estimate had not
been exceeded since the last arrangement ;
and the hon. gentleman observed, that
he did not know whether it had or not.
A specific allowance had been granted
for the support of the king's household;
and in the event of an excess be-
yond that allowance to the amount of
16,0001. or upwards, although that sum
might be made good out of other funds,
still it was enacted, by the 56th of Geo.
Srd, that an account of such excess should

Civil List Revenues. [80
be laid before parliament. Now, if there
was no excess (which must be inferred,
as no return was made), and if no demand
was made for assistance, he could see
nothing, consistently with the course
pursued by parliament at all times, that
authorized the hon. gentleman to call for
a detailed account of the application of
those revenues which parliament had
granted for the support of his majesty's
household. The arrangement of 1816
accomplished that which had not been
before accomplished. The regulations
adopted at that period provided new
checks, by which the whole expense of
every department, in each class, was to
be kept within the estimate agreed to by
parliament. It had been so confined ;
and that being the case, the hon. gentle-
man was in possession of all the information
that was necessary for any proceeding
with reference to the establishment of a
new civil list. Let him take the estimate
as it now stood, and rest assured that the
expenditure was kept within its bounds.
It was, therefore, fit to consider, whether,
to satisfy the curiosity of the hon. gen-
tleman, they would produce a detailed
account, showing how much was spent for
wine-what were the outgoings of the
lord steward's, or of any other depart-
ment-circumstances which could only
be looked into with propriety, when the
Crown called for assistance. It appeared
to him that no ground whatever had been
laid for the motion.
Mr. Tierney admitted that where no
application for assistance was made by the
Crown, it was not customary to inquire
into the civillist expenditure. Thespeech
of the right hon. gentleman was, however,
one of the most extraordinary he had
ever heard, because he stated the case as
if there was a civil list in existence-the
question being, how to form a civil list ?
They were not now dealing with a civil list
actually in being-they were called on,
de novo, to make a civil list; and in doing
that, his hon. friend asked for such in-
formation as would enable him to decide
on what was proper to be given. Could
it be irregular to call for an account of
that which took place in the reign of
George 3rd? Because the hereditary
revenue was to be placed at their disposal,
and a sum was to be granted for the civil
list, not exceeding the amount of that
voted in 1816, were they at once to de-
cide that the vote of 1816 was correct,
without knowing the intervening circumt

stances? They were now called upon to money had been spent, and every facility
make a final arrangement-so final, in- should be afforded to let them convince
deed (and he begged the House to recol- themselves that the whole of the sum
lect the chancellor of the exchequer's formerly voted had been necessary. This
argument on other occasions), that, after was a very material fact, for it was just as
making it, they would be told, if they possible that they had granted too much
attempted such a thing, that it was inde- as too little.
cent to revise it. As this was the case, Lord John Russell said, it seemed to
it became the more necessary that they be the intention of his majesty's ministers,
should proceed with caution, and see at the commencement of a new reign, to
clearly what they were about to do. He take as a model in the arrangement of the
thought it most extraordinary that they civil list, the arrangement made five years
should be asked to vote this gross sum, ago, notwithstanding all the changes which
founded on the settlement of 1816, with- had since taken place, and without con-
out knowing what had occurred since. sending to any inquiry on the subject.
They were told, that if there were an That was certainly not his view of the
exceeding to a greater amount than way in which the House of Commons, at
16,0001., an account of the excess was to a time of such extreme pressure, ought
be laid before parliament within 31 days to perform its duty to the country. He
after such excess appeared. But this was did not know whether the hon. gentle-
no answer to the motion. They must man's motion was that which was best
bear in mind, that it was not an operative calculated to obtain the desired informa-
civil list they were touching, but one that tion (although it appeared to him to be a
only existed as a matter of history. His very fair and proper one), but he was
hon. friend wanted farther information, perfectly satisfied that the House of
He wished to know whether all the money Commons would not do its duty, if it
granted to support the civil list had been consented to any proposition for the per-
expended. There were two difficulties manent establishment of a civil list with-
to be encountered and cleared up. Par- out any further inquiry.
liament might have voted too little, or it Mr. Hume said, that the right hon.
might have granted too much. He re- gentleman had observed, that the division
collected, when the last arrangement took of the civil list, in different classes in 1816,
place, that it was considered a matter of had prevented any exceeding. He did
difficulty to imagine how so large a pro- not seem to recollect, that, in 1786, there
vision could be expended; particularly were different classes, which did not pre-
that connected with the lord steward's vent an excess. At that time, the expen-
department. That noble lord, it was un- diture exceeded the estimate by 12.1,0001.;
derstood, proceeded on a principle of great and a similar circumstance occurred in
frugality. If, therefore, the settlement 1804. He would be glad if any other
of 1816 provided more than was necessary, hon. gentleman would point out where
it was a material fact which the Iouse the necessary information of the cxpendi-
ought to know. If there was a surplus, ture from 1815 to 1820, could be pro-
he should like to be acquainted with cured, except from the accounts for which
its appropriation, if it had been ap- he had moved.
propriated, which he did not suppose was Lord Milton declared, that he very
the case. If the lord steward had, at the much doubted if the present circumstances
end of the year, a sum unappropriated, of the country were such as to j:.stify the
whatwasheto dowithit? It wasnot an im- establishment of a permanent civil li-,
possiblecircumstancethat the Crown might In the present state of our currnney, it
rather wish to possess a sum of money than was impossible for any man to s;iy what
to lay it out in the support of that splen- was the real value of a pound i'...:, ..
dor which it was granted to maintain. A what alteration the execution .i I I. n.a
king might be seated on the throne who sures agreed to by parliament last year
would rather keep the sum of money than might cause in that value. He would,
entertain.the company who would expect therefore, almost say, that no permanent
to be present at his festivities. This he civil list establishment ought at present
merely put as a possible case. It cer- to be formed; but, at least, the House
tainlv might be so, and it was an evil that ought maturely to consider on what basis
ought to be guarded against. They thatestablishment ought to be constructed
ought, therefore, to know truly how the It was half a century since the subject

Civil List

MAY 3, 1820.

id been fundamentally brought under
ie consideration of the House; for all
ie subsequent acts with respect to it were
nere modifications of the arrangement,
and were not founded on any thorough
consideration of it. Referring to Mr.
Burke's celebrated speech, when he moved
his economical reform, he put it to the
House whether it might not be practicable
to introduce some of the ameliorations
then contemplated. At the time of mak-
ing a new bargain with the Crown, might
not various anomalies, such, for instance,
as allowing the chief justices of Chester
and Wales to sit in that House (contrary
to all principle), be advantageously cor-
rected? The present was the period in
which a minute inquiry ought to be insti-
tuted, in order to see if some alteration
might not be made beneficial, not merely
as to the scale, but as to the classification
of the civil list expenditure. But it ap-
peared to be the determination of minis-
ters to vote the civil list as it was, without
any investigation whatever; taking credit
indeed for not increasing it. A right hon.
gentleman had even asserted that every
body expected it would be increased.
It appeared to him to be most extraordi-
nary on the part of ministers to refuse all
information on the subject.
The House divided: Ayes, 60; Noes
List ofthe ,Minorih,1.

Althorp, viscount
Burdett, sir F.
Boughey, sir S.
Benett, John
Bury, viscount
Bernal, Ralph
Baring, sir Thos.
Barham, J. F.
Bright, Henry
Barrett, S. M.
Calcraft, John
Calcraft, J. H.
Calvert, N.
Calvert, C.
Cavendish, Henry
Cronpton, Sam.
Colburne, N. IR.
Curwen, J. C.
Crawley, S.
Denman, Thos.
Duncannon, vise.
Dundas, C. L.
Grenfell, Pascoe
Gordon, Robt.
Graham, R. G.
Guise, sir W. B.
Hoinby, E.
Hobhouse, J. C.

Hill, lord A.
l14-hiinail, W.
Harbord, ion. Ed.
Kennedy, T. F.
Lamb, hn. Winm.
Langton, J. HL
Macdonald, James
Milton, viscount
Millbank, Mark
Martin, John
Newman, R. W.
O'Grady, capt.
Powlett, ion, W.
Parnell, sir H.
Pym, Francis
Palmer, C. F.
Ridley, sir M. W.
Robinson, sir G.
Robarts, Abr.
Robarts, George
Russell, lord John
Rowley, sir Wm.
Ricardo, David
Rumbold, C.
Sefton, earl of
Tierney, right hon.
Wyndham, WV.
Wilson, sir Robt.

Wilson, Thos.
Warre, J. Ashley
Webbe, Ed.
Wilkins, Walter

Hume, Jos.
Philips, G.

Mr. Hume proceeded to make his se-
cond motion. He avowed that his inten-
tion was, that the details of the last year's
expenditure should be laid on the table,
in order that the absurdity of'many of the
items might be shown. Was it not fitting
that the House, in the present distressed
state of the country, should have every
information on the subject, when among
the items were such sums in the 7th class
as 1,3721. to the master of the hawks, which
might surely be retrenched; 1,5471L for
the education of the Persian youths, which
was misplaced in being charged on the
civil list; and others as deserving of re-
mark. He deeply regretted that the
House, by the decision to which they had
just before come, and expressed their de-
termination to shut out all information on
the subject of the civil list; not even ad-
mitting that which was by no means novel
in its nature, but simply an extension
from 1815 to 1820, of the information in
the possession of parliament before that
period. He could do no more than make
the propositions which he deemed neces-
sary; it was for the House to deal with
them as they thought proper.
The previous question on this, and on
the third motion, was put and carried.
Mr. Hume said, he would not go on
with the remaining motions of a similar
nature which he held in his hand; he must,
however, again state, that the accessible
accounts on the subject took weeks and
months to understand, although a single
hour's labour on the part of the clerks
would obviate that inconvenience. The
motion which he was now about to make
was of a very different nature. It was
surely most important, when the House
were called upon to vote a civil revenue
to his majesty for the support of the royal
household, that they should know what
sums his majesty had at his disposal, over
and above all parliamentary grants. The
amount of the reserved hereditary reve-
nue of the crown in Scotland, taken on
the average of the last three or four years,
amounted to 110,0001. He was anxious
to have this account continued in the
same manner as the others, from the 2nd
of February, 1816, to the 2nd of February
1820. Over and above the sums voter
by parliament, the whole of the reserve
hereditary revenues of the Crow

Civil List Revenues,

85] Civil List.
amounted to 300,0001. If the account,
as it respected Scotland, were produced,
it would show that the 110,0001. was
chiefly appropriated to the payment of
pensions, not for meritorious services to
the state, but for political considerations;
the money was expended, not in main-
taining the honour and dignity of the
Crown, but in corrupting the members of
that House [Hear, hear! a laugh, and
cries of order !]. In a few days lie would
endeavour to show how the money was
employed; for he intended to move for
an account which would show how far
the cheers of the gentlemen opposite were
well-founded. He really believed that
the whole of the 110,0001. of the Scotch
reserved hereditary revenue might be ad-
vantageously saved. He would move,
" that an account be laid before the House
of the amount of the reserved hereditary
revenues in Scotland for each year, from
2d of Feb. 1816, to 2d of Feb. 1820."
The Chancellorof the Exchequer moved
the previous question, which was put and

Thursday, May 4.
PRICE OF SILVER.] Lord King rose
to move for an account of the market
Price of Silver, with the view of ascertain-
ing whether it was not under the Mint
price. He thought it very necessary that
their Lordships attention should be di-
rected to this subject; for if it should ap-
pear, as he believed would be found to be
the case, that the market price of silver
was less than the Mint price, that would
be a proof that the currency was debased.
The only rule for ascertaining this fact,
was a comparison of the price of the pre-
cious metals; for a comparison with paper
afforded no means of judging. It appeared
that the Bank bought gold at the rate of
about 31. 17s. 10d., but they did not pur-
chase silver, though it was cheaper in the
market than at the Mint. The currency
of the country was, however, in conse-
quence of this difference of price, raised
beyond its real value. It was their lord-
ships duty to guard against the inconve-
nience of a variable standard. They must
recollect what had been the consequence
some years ago of the currency having
been depreciated, and now the country
was suffering in precisely the opposite
direction by its rising. He might ap-
peal to the evidence taken on the late

MAY 4, 1820. [86
investigation, relative to the Bank, to
show that the Mint price of silver was
not in proportion to that of gold; but his
object was, to obtain a return of the mar-
ket price, in order to compare it with that
of the Mint. and he believed it would be
found that the former was 1-d. per ounce
below the latter, being a depreciation of
about 1{ per cent. He concluded by
moving that there be laid before the House
an account of the present market price of

CIVIL LIST.] The Marquis of Lans-
downe wished to ask the noble lord oppo-
site a question, in reference to the civil
list establishment, which was likely soon to
come under their lordships consideration.
He should be glad to know whether it was
the intention of the noble lord to propose
the appointment of a committee to inquire
into the state of that establishment, or to
give any information to the House which
might be thought necessary, before the
question came under consideration.
The Earl of Liverpool said, he did not
intend to move for any committee. As
to information, the noble marquis was
aware that when the civil list was settled
in 1816, the accounts thought necessary
at that time were laid before parliament.
That information was still accessible to
their lordships, and he thought it sufficient
to enable their lordships to discuss the
question which would come before them.
The Marquis of Lansdowne reminded
the noble earl of what had passed when
this subject gave rise to considerable dis-
cussion some years ago. It had been then,
and on other occasions when the question,
was adverted to, uniformly stated, that
when a new reign should commence an
opportunity would be afforded to parlia-
ment for a complete investigation of the
state of the civil list. This he believed
was distinctly stated by the minister who
made the arrangement in 1816. He had
undoubtedly heard with much satisfaction
the declaration made on the part of the
Crown on the first day of the session re-
lative to the civil list; but that declaration
did not relieve parliament from the duty
of now fully considering the subject, in
order to ascertain whether the difference
in the state of the country, and other
circumstances, did not render it necessary
that a new arrangement should be made.
He was, therefore, justified in calling for
the reprinting of the accounts which had
been laid before parliament in 1816, and


for such other information as should after- was applied. These things ought to be
wards appear necessary. He did not completely separated; and as for the fluc-
now mean to give any opinion as to what tuating expenses, the most simple and
the amount of the civil list ought to be; most useful mode would be, to present
but, independently of the principle of estimates of them to parliament from year
economy, which, in the present situation to year. He had taken the present oppor-
of the country, it was necessary never to tunity of throwing out these suggestions
lose sight of, there was another, connected for their lordships consideration, and
with the civil list, of great importance, in should now conclude by moving, That
his opinion, to the proper dignity of the the papers relative to the civil list, laid be-
Crown, for the support of which that fore parliament in 1816, be reprinted."
establishment was granted. IHe meant The Earl of Liverpool had no ob-
that of simplifying the accounts so as to section to the reprinting of the accounts
render it clear what part of the civil list to which the motion referred; but,
went to the maintenance of the royal though he did not wish to enter into any
family, and what was applicable to other discussion on the topics on which the
purposes, or to services more strictly na- noble marquis had touched, he thought
tional. Some approximation to this ob- that some things which had dropped
ject had been made in 1816, and he ap- from him called for a few observations.
proved of the arrangement then adopted He wished, in the first place, to remark,
to the extent to which it went. But it had that there was no precedent for the course
stopped short of the point of real utility, of inquiry which the noble marquis was
that of reducing the civil list to what desirous of seeing adopted on the pre-
might be granted for the regular expendi- sent occasion. If they looked back to
ture of the royal family, and leaving every the commencement of any former reign,
thing of a fluctuating nature, and all those they would find no instance of the set-
expenses which were properly national, tlement of the civil list being preceded
subject at all times to the consideration by a committee of inquiry. It had been,
of parliament. The most proper arrange- on all such occasions, the practice of
ment, he thought, would be, to charge the parliament to proceed to the considera-
consolidated fund with every expense tion of the civil list without calling for any
which might be considered national, and information. He was not then discussing
to confine the civil list to what should be whether this course, which had been fol-
actually fixed upon for the permanentex- lowed by their ancestors, was right or
penditure of the royal family. Those wrong; all that he meant now to say,
charges on the civil list which were of a was, that such had been the practice. It
contingent and fluctuating nature should ought, however, to be recollected, that
always remain open to inquiry. The neg- their lordships had at present an advan-
lect of a regulation of this kind exposed tage which had been possessed on no
the royal family to imputations to which former occasion of this kind. They had
they otherwise would not be liable, and, obtained, not indeed with reference to a
owing to the confusion of the accounts, a new reign, but to a settlement for the
variety of erroneous impressions were pro- same illustrious person who was now on
duced on the public mind. Hence, when the throne, all necessary information on
application was made to parliament for the details of the subject which was about
supplying deficiencies, injustice had some- to be brought under their consideration.
times been done to the public, and some- The papers presented in 1816 would en-
times to the royal family. It would be able them to understand all the parts of
for their lordships to determine whether the subject in a manner for which no op-
it was not proper to require that a separa- portunity had been afforded on any former
tion and simplification of the accounts occasion. When the question came to
should take place at a time when they be discussed, it would therefore be per-
were called upon to consider the whole fectly competent to any noble lord to
question of the civil list. He could see argue, on reference to the recorded in-
no reason for continuing to mix the formation, that there ought to be a dif-
laries of the judges, and the allowances ference between the settlement for the
to ministers abroad, with the expenses ofi new reign and that which had been made
the royal family, in such a manner as to in 1816. If the noble marquis referred
make it extremely difficult for the public to that settlement, he would find that
to discover the manner in which the money every thing had been done with respect

Civil List.

)] CCivil List.
Simplification, that was practicable.
n every step of the arrangement then
nade the public advantage and interest
ilad been maturely considered. The great
object was, to take from the civil list and
transfer to the consolidated fund, various
payments for services of a public nature
which could be advantageously separated.
By this arrangement much improvement
in the accounts had been accomplished-;
but it was proposed, that other charges
of a fluctuating, an uncertain nature,
should be voted annually, and thus made
subject to the control of parliament.
Upon examination it would, however, be
found, that all the articles of this descrip-
tion were of a peculiar nature, to which
such a check could not with proprie-
ty be applied. The department most
subject to fluctuation in its expen-
diture was the royal household and
its fluctuation was owing to the same
cause thrt produced a variation in the
expenses of any other family, namely,
the difference of prices. Now, as to
separating the expenses 'of the royal
family from all charges for the main-
tenance of the civil government, in the
manner the noble marquis had proposed,
that was an arrangement of the pro.
priety of which he entertained very seri-
ous doubts. 'The spirit of the constitu-
tion required that the expenditure of the
Crown should be considered as part of
the expenditure of the country. It was
doubtless on that ground that the charges
for the civil government had been joined
to the civil list, and he should therefore
consider any attempt to produce a total
separation as at least extremely indiscreet.
Upon the whole, after the declaration
made by the Crown on the opening of
the session, and the papers to which their
lordships had access, it must be obvious
that parliament came to the consideration
of this subject under more advantageous
circumstances than on any former occa-
sion. Their lordships had before them
all the information on which the arrange-
ment of 1816 was made for his present
majesty as regent: and here he could
not help observing, that if it were thought
advisable to draw any distinction between
the two periods, he believed the general
feeling of the country would be, that the
settlement now to be made should be
something more rather than something
less than the former. But that was not
the ground on which he rested the ques-
tion. His majesty had declared from the

MAY 4, 180O. [90
throne, that he was satisfied, and had no
desire for any increase of the civil list.
Their lordships would, then, have to
consider, whether they saw sufficient
ground for continuing that arrangement.
He admitted that the question lay in all
respects fairly open. It might be pro-
posed to reduce the establishment; but
the expediency of adopting such a pro-
position would remain for their lordships
Lord King wished that his noble friend
had given notice of a motion on the sub-
ject of his question. He would have
preferred that to the present motion; and
if the question should be brought forward,
he would vote for the appointment of a
committee. It was true that the state of
the civil list had been taken into consi-
deration in 1816; but then it came be-
fore parliament in the shape of a vested
interest. It was not a question of a set-
tlement for the commencement ofa reign,
but for a regent, who administered the
government in behalf of his majesty.
With regard to the separation of the ac-
counts, nothing could more strongly
show the necessity of that separation,
than the confusion which arose from some
payments being charged, partly on the
civil list and partly on other funds. The
speaker of the House of Commons, for in-
stance, received one half of the salary from
the civil list, and the other half from the
consolidated fund. He thought with his
noble friend, that this separation was ne-
cessary for the proper dignity of the
Crown; but inquiry into every branch of
the question was peculiarly necessary at
a time when the country was experiencing
the deepest distress, and more especially
when it was proposed that their lordships
should renew the settlement of 1816-
a period of most lavish expenditure, of
great depreciation in the currency, and
consequent high price. It would not be
doing justice to the country to take the
arrangement of that period as a rule for
the expenditure of the civil list without
inquiry. Among the heads which ought
certainly to be separated from the civil
list was the charge for allowances to fo-
reign ambassadors, to which his noble
friend had referred. The arrangement
should be such as to create an induce-
ment to economy on the part of the
Crown. Were this done, the Crown
when too lavish under one head, would b
obliged to economize under another
This, however, was not to be expect(

if parliament allowed the present confu-
sion of accounts to continue, and then
supplied every deficiency. Grants for
this purpose were not made in former
times. Throughout the whole reign of
George 2nd, the civil list continued as it
had been at first fixed. As the matter
now stood, there was no inducement to
economy. The Crown, for instance, had
no interest in keeping down the number
of ministers sent abroad, but rather in
making as many diplomatic appointments
as possible, and allowing the ambassadors
to retire on their half pay or pensions;
for such a proceeding caused no diminu-
tion of the civil list, the deficiency being
made up from other funds. He was de-
sirous that a full inquiry should be in-
The motion was then agreed to.

Thursday, May 4.
LONDON BRIDGE.] Mr. S. Whitbread
presented a petition from the Middlesex
watermen of the river Thames, complain-
ing of the great insecurity of London
Bridge, the danger that attended life and
property, and the interruption it gave to
the navigation ofthe river.
Sir W. Curtis, admitted that after the
presentation of the petition, some inquiry
into the state of the bridge was necessary,
although he believed it was not in the
state of danger described.
Mr. F. Lewis said, it was highly neces-
sary either that the worthy baronet or
some other member should bring the sub-
ject before the House, as unless some-
thing was promptly introduced a most se-
rious damage would be done to the navi-
gation of the river below the bridge.
Sir W. Curtis said, he should consult
with the trustees and other parties inter-
ested, and bring the subject subsequently
under the consideration of parliament.
Mr. Alderman Wood said, an inquiry
had been going on for some time by the
trustees; but he thought his hon. col-
league had best leave the introduction of
the subject of bringing it before parlia-
ment to one of the gentlemen who pre-
sented petitions against the present state
of the bridge. As one of the trustees
of the bridge in right of his corporate
character, he declared himself quite pre-
pared for inquiry.
Mr. Calvert thought something that es-
sentially affected the fact was kept out of

Wool Tax. [92
sight. The corporation of London had
an interest in the water-works, with which
the taking down of London Bridge would
interfere. As an hon. friend of his was
about to make steam engines consume
their own smoke, he hoped he would also
extend his motion to have the water there
worked by engines on the proposed new
construction, rather than by wheels.
Mr. Alderman Wood assured his hon.
friend, that the city had no interest in the
water-works, except a small rent, which
they would not hesitate to give up.
Ordered to lie on the table.

WooL TAX.] Mr. T. Wilson rose, for
the purpose of presenting a petition from
the manufacturers and merchants concern-
ed in the wool trade of the city of Lon-
don. Adverting to the duty which was
imposed upon foreign wool in the course
of last year, the hon. gentleman observed
that it appeared to him, from the very
first, a proceeding of an unwise and
impolitic nature, considering that the ma-
nufacturing interest of this country was at
that time involved in great distresses, and
that a very large number of individuals
were suffering under heavy difficulties and
privations. He had always felt the truth
of the maxim, that the imposition of a
new duty upon the raw material was a
measure never justifiable, except when
the trade was in a flourishing condition.
The resolutions which had been founded
upon these considerations, and transmitted
to his majesty's ministers, were such as,
he thought, would make out a very strong
case. It was evident that the great price
of the raw article would enhance the
price of the manufacture in proportion;
whereas a fall, such as would be occa-
sioned by the withdrawing of the duty,
would enable us to meet the competition of
foreign markets. It was very true, as had
been stated, that a great number of mer-
chants in the city had refused the order
which was transmitted to England for the
clothing of the Russian army. The more
he had extended his observations, the
more information he had been enabled to
collect upon the subject, he was so much
the more convinced that this tax must
operate like a mill-stone round the neck
of the manufacturer. He implored his
majesty's ministers to consider the state
of the country, the condition of the ma-
nufacturing classes; and to reflect with
how much better grace it would come
from them to repeal this tax in pity to

93] Royal Burghs of Scotland.
that country, and to those individuals,
rather than to wait till the distress had
increased to a degree which should make
it imperative upon them to do so.-The
petition was then brought up; it prayed
that parliament would be pleased to confer
upon the wool trade that protection which
it had always received under all former
Mr. Baring thought, that a more im-
portant subject could not be brought
under the consideration of the House.
He could not, entirely unconnected as he
was with the wool-trade, or with persons
embarked in that trade, allow the present
opportunity to pass, without saying that
he considered this most ancient and valu-
able manufacture to be in very imminent
danger. It could hardly be expected of
him to speak more particularly to the
subject. He was not exactly prepared to
say whether the manufactures of the
country could or could not bear this duty
of 6d. per pound upon the importation
of wool. But of this he was quite satis-
fied, that the duty last year was imposed
without sufficient consideration. It seemed
to have been laid on by the chancellor of
the exchequer, more for the purpose of
conciliating some hon. gentlemen who
were reluctant to adopt another tax, pro-
bably almost equally severe upon them-
the malt duty-rather than from other mo-
tives. He was quite sure, if it should ap-
pear that the manufactures of the country
could not stand foreign competition while
this tax existed, that to suffer it to continue
for one or two years only might be the
means of establishing manufactures abroad,
which would entirely overcome that com-
petition which we had sustained in their
markets for centuries, and which would
get to such a head that no subsequent ef-
forts of ours, no mitigation of duties even
would be able to undersell or put down.
As far as regarded the agricultural inter-
est, he would say that if the manufactures
of the country were at stake by reason
of the price of wool the agricultural inter-
est was equally so-a fact which could be
easily made out. He did not know what
course the hon. gentleman meant to pur-
sue, but he could not suffer the matter to
pass, without begging that the House
would allow him to say, although it was
not usual to give that sort of notice in
such cases, that he should on Monday
next present a petition from the merchants
of the city of London, relative to the ge-
neral restrictions under which the com-

MAY 4, 1820. [94
merce of the country was at present la-
bouring. In conclusion, he begged to
observe, that he could not allow a petition
like that which had been just presented to
be brought up without offering a few
words upon it, or without declaring that
he considered it one of the most important
description. He would say, that no
parliament had ever been guilty of greater
remissness in the discharge of their duty,
than the last parliament had evinced, by
the inconsiderate manner in which they
had imposed such a duty upon the impor-
tation of wool.
Mr. Wilson said, that he intended to
follow up the petition, according to the
prayer contained in it, by calling the seri-
ous attention of the House to the subject.
But he should let the petition rest at pre-
sent, until the House was in possession of
numerous others upon the same subject,
which he expected would be forwarded
from all parts of the country.
Ordered to lie on the table.

A. Hamilton said, that having been given
to understand that there would be no ob-
jection to his motion for the re-appoint-
ment of a select committee, to take into
consideration the various petitions pre-
sented from the royal burghs of Scotland,
praying for municipal reformation, he
should abstain from offering any observa-
tions in support of his motion, taking it
for granted that the House concurred in
the propriety of the course he was adopt-
ing. The report of the last parliament
was before the House, and he had only to
refer to the information it contained, in
order to prove the importance of the
measure. If it happened that any hon.
gentleman either from reading the report,
or from any other cause, should offer any
opposition to the motion, he then trusted
he should be heard in reply, with the view
as far as he was able, to remove the ob-
jections. He could assure the House,
that the question had excited, and conti-
nued to excite, the greatest anxiety
throughout that part of the country.
Though the list of the committee which
he had to propose was not exactly what
She wished. As one name had been ob.
jected to by his majesty's ministers, yet
he was determined to make no opposition
to the alteration. The noble lord con-
cluded with moving, that the petitions
presented from the royal burghs of Scot-
land, in the years 1818-19-20, praying

for borough reformation, be referred to
the consideration of a select committee,
to examine the same and report thereon.
Lord Binning begged to bear his testi-
mony to the very liberal spirit in which
the noble lord met the suggestions of his
majesty's government, as to the constitu-
tion of the committee.
The motion was then carried, and a
select committee appointed.

The Lord Advocate, adverting to the con-
versation which had taken place a few
evenings ago in the House on the subject
of the appointment of a fourth baron of
the exchequer in Scotland, observed, that
when the vacancy in question occurred,
he had been required, in the discharge of
his official duty, to make a report, on the
recommendation of the commissioners, on
the courts ofjustice in Scotland, to abstain
from filling up any such vacancy that
might occur after that recommendation.
In order the better to enable himself to
execute this task, he had submitted the
subject to the consideration of the highest
law authorities in Scotland, namely, the
lord president of the court of session, the
lord justice clerk, the lord chief, commis-
sioner of the jury court, and the lord chief
baron of the exchequer. Those high au-
thorities were unanimous in their opinion
as to the expediency of filling up the
vacancy. He was solicitous that the
House should be put in possession of
this report; not because it stated the
opinion of the humble individual who ad-
dressed them, but because it comprehended
the opinion of the highest legal authorities
in Scotland on the subject. He would
therefore move, That an address be pre-
sented to his majesty, praying that lhe
would be graciously pleased to order that
there be laid before the House a Copy of
the Report made by the lord advocate of
Scotland on the recommendation contain-
ed in the sixth Report of the commis-
sioners on the courts of justice in Scot-
land, regarding the discontinuance of one
of the Barons of the Court of Exchequer
in Scotland."
Mr. Abercromby rose, not to oppose the
motion, but to express his extreme regret
that, when a report had been made by
commissioners appointed by that House,
expressing the opinion of those commis-
sioners, that the office in question should,
in the event of a vacancy, not be filled
up, his majesty should nevertheless have

G;ibialar. [9(
been advised to fill it up. IHe was happy
that the learned lord had moved for the
production of this paper, as it was an ad-
mission on the part of the learned lord
that what related to that court was a fit
matter for parliamentary investigation.
He was unequivocally of opinion, that
into the nature of the court of exchequer
in Scotland it behoved that House to in-
stitute a diligent inquiry-an inquiry
founded on the large and extended prin-
ciple of separating from official duties
branches of business that were not pro-
perly compatible with those duties. It
was most essential to public justice that
the duties of a judge should never assume
a political character. On these grounds,
and mainly on the admission which the
motion implied, of its being the duty of
parliament to investigate the subject, he
gave his cordial assent to it.
Lord Binning said, that the hon. and
learned gentleman spoke as if his learned
friend had himself originated the inquiry.
It was not so. His learned friend
had acted only ministerial. The secretary
of state having required a report from his
learned friend on the recommendation of
the commissioners, he had done his duty
by appealing on the subject to the highest
law authorities of Scotland.
Mr. Abercromby, in explanation, ob-
served, that it was substantially the same
thing. From whatever source the inquiry
proceeded, it was evident that the act of
government was in hostility to the opinion
of the commissioners. He begged, how-
ever, to be distinctly understood, that
nothing could be more foreign to his inten-
tion than to intimate any thing that was
not entirely respectful to the learned lord.
Sir J. Newport supported the necessity
of an inquiry into the constitution of the
court of exchequer in Scotland. It was
evident that the information which was to
be afforded on the subject, was absolutely
forced from government by the observa-
tions made by his noble friend.
The motion was agreed to.

GIBRALTAR.] Mr. Hume, before lie
proceeded to the motion of which he had
given notice, wished to correct a mistake
that had occurred with reference to one
of his statements yesterday evening. He
had said that in the seventh class of the
civil list in 1815, there was to be found an
expenditure which he had characterized
as useless, namely, the sum of 1,3721.
payable to the master of the hawks, not

] Gibraltar.
ie master of the horse$ as had been er-
oneously stated. He now came to the
question of the revenue derived from Gib-
altar. He had on a former occasion sub-
mitted to the House a motion on the sub-
ject, which motion he had withdrawn,
because it had been declared by the right
hon. gentleman opposite, that the House
had no right to interfere with the revenue
derived from Gibraltar, and that it never
had so interfered. At that time he was
not so well prepared to meet the right hon:
gentleman. But he was now able to inform
him and the House, that the revenue de-
rived from Gibraltar had been detailed and
laid before the House in the years 1794,
1795, 1796, and 1797. In a note at-
tached to the returns made of the items
of the surplus of the Gibraltar revenue,
it was stated that an account of its appro-
priation would be laid before parliament.
That account, however, had never made
its appearance. It was not only material
to obtain this, but it was most material
seriously to consider the principle on
which the revenue in question had been
raised. For his part, he had always been
led to believe that his majesty had no right
to levy taxes upon any part of his subjects
without the sanction of parliament. Let
the House also consider the amount of
those taxes appropriated to the civil list.
That amount, from 1760 to 1820 was
124,2261. being 2,0701. per annum. The
whole amount of the taxes levied on Gib-
raltar during the last sixty years was, how-
ever 860,0001. The House ought surely
to consider how far his majesty had a right
to levy for his own purposes any tax on a
colony. He was prepared to contend that
no such right existed, and that all taxation
on the subject not sanctioned by that
House was a breach of its privileges. He
begged the House to attend to one circum-
stance. The right lion. gentleman oppo-
site refused to assign any reasons for the
appropriation of the sums in question to
the civil list, but said that it was the im-
memorial usage. The fact did not bear
out the right hon. gentleman in that asser-
tion. Let the House refer to the original
charter granted in the reign of queen
Anne, soon after the capture of Gibraltar
in 1704. In 1705, the queen in council
declared, for the encouragement of settlers
and traffickers in the garrison, that noduties
should be laid on ships, goods, warehouses,
&c. This declaration had the effect of
attracting a considerable number of settlers
to the garrison. The returns which he

MAY 4, 1820. C98
wished to obtain would show what the
amount of the duties levied was, notwith-
standing that declaration in 1760. In
1794, the amount assessed was 4,0001.
The House would be surprised to learn
that it had since increased to 50,0001. To
the revenue derived from certain small
portions of land, &c. that had devolved
to the Crown, the Crown was fairly en-
titled; but the imposition of local taxes to
so heavy an amount was disgraceful and
unwarrantable.-He proceeded to another
most serious part of the subject. When
Gibraltar came into our possession the in-
habitants were chiefly, if not entirely,
Catholics; and our government being
anxious to remove them by degrees, and
to substitute Protestants, gave to the latter
superior advantages in order to induce
them to settle. The Catholics were sub-
jected to a variety of restrictions, which
continued until the duke of Kent became
governor. With that liberality which al-
ways distinguished his royal highness,
who felt that the Catholics ought not to
remain under any ban of that nature, he
represented to government its impropriety
and its incompatibility with the peace and
quiet of the garrison. In consequence,
Mr. Windham, in 1807, wrote a letter to
his royal highness, authorising the aboli-
tion of these restrictions. But what
would the House say, when he informed
them that ministers, by a late order in
council, had laid a tax on every Catholic
and Jewish inhabitant of the garrison. The
will of such individual was declared to be
invalid without the sanction of the go-
vernor; and a capitation tax of ten dollars
a year was imposed upon him-a tax exist-
ing no where but in Turkey, and worthy of
Turkey! But what he thought would
surprise the House was, that, exclusively
of all that he had mentioned, duties to
the amount of many thousand pounds on
almost every article imported into Gib-
raltar had been imposed. On ships touch-
ing there, a duty was levied. On a ship
of 3 masts, 12 dollars; on one of 2
masts, 9 dollars; on smaller vessels, 41-
dollars. This was in direct contradiction
to the original charter. During the year
that he (Mr. Hume) was at Gibraltar,
5,000 vessels touched at that port. If they
merely anchored they were subject to the
duty. There were other taxes levied by
the governor, general Don, in the most
arbitrary manner, and without even the
authority of ministers. In a list in hie
possession, it appeared that there was onf

(he would not say improper in its object)
imposed in 1816, of 911. a year on every
retail wine and spirit shop. He knew he
should be told by the right hon. gentle-
man, that this was confirmed two years
afterwards by an order in council.-There
were other taxes imposed by general Don
on eating-houses, billiard tables, fis'iing
boats, &c., and he was almost ashamed
to say that the general had sanctioned the
sale of lottery tickets, without the au-
thority of government, by making the
venders of Spanish lottery tickets pay a
considerable sum l'or a licence. Whether
or not those sums had been brought to
the public account he could not say, but
he knew they were levied ; and he had in
his possession five or six of general Don's
proclamations on the subject. This prac-
tice of levying taxes ad libitum, and re-
mitting the produce home for the privy
purse of his majesty, without the authority
of parliament, was, in his opinion, most
unconstitutional. The establishment of
the place had also been most unnecessarily
increased. He really believed it was in-
creased just in proportion as ministers
found it convenient to extend their pa-
tronage. He would give the House some
idea of the amount of the increase, in
order to show the kind of economy ob-
served. During the war there was one
town major in Gibraltar; since the peace
there had been two. During the war there
were two barrack masters; since the
peace there had been three. During the
war there was one pratique master; since
the peace there had been two. Instead of
paving and keeping the garrison in repair,
out of the duties levied in it, large sums
had been at various times voted in the
different estimates for those purposes,
while the money was all remitted to the
privy purse. Now really this appeared to
him to be a question demanding serious
consideration. If any part of the heredi-
tary revenue was given up by the act of the
first of his late majesty, that at Gibraltar
must have been given up too. It was not,
however, simply the 124,0001. that had
been applied to the privy purse, but the
extravagant establishment-contrary to
every principle of economy-which had
been kept up, to which the attention of
parliament ought. to be directed. To him
the system appeared to be most illegal
and unconstitutional, and one which ought
to be abolished. Not any part of the
duties raised were applied to purposes ad-
vantageous to the establishment. There


were in Gibraltar two synagogues, two
Roman Catholic chapels, and one Me-
thodist chapel; but there was not one
church of the established religion of this
country, nor was there one school con-
ducted upon the principles of that per-
suasion. He would go farther-there
was not on the rock any establishment
from which any Protestant could receive
that religious consolation which he re-
quired.-He would now again advert to
the revenues of that place, as well as to
the manner of their collection. These
revenues were collected at a grievous ex-
pense. The recent appointments, too, to
public offices, were against a positive act
of parliament. The act to which he al-
luded was one which provided against the
discharge of the duties of any office by
deputy. Mr. Wickham of Lincoln's Inn,
had been appointed a receiver of certain
branches of revenue, and this office he
discharged by deputy. He only men-
tioned the name of this gentleman as an
instance of the many which he could pro-
duce, and whether his case came within,
or was previous to the act to which he al-
luded, would be shown upon the inquiry
which he proposed.-The hon. member
went on to state, that not long ago there
was but one commissary of stores in Gib-
raltar; at present they had three. Not
long since they had not a commissioner of
accounts; now they had three. During
the war a military secretary was em-
ployed; since the peace he had been
struck off; but he was retained as trans-
lator of languages, with the continuance
of his previous salary and emoluments. He
would not farther detain the House at
present. He had three motions to make:
-The first was, for a Return of all the
Taxes and Duties levied in Gibraltar in
the years 1800 and 1818." These two
periods would be sufficient to show to the
House the nature and increase of the re-
venue of that country. His next motion
was, for the Production of an Account
of the number and nature of the various
Offices and Establishments at Gibraltar,
with the Amount of the Salaries and Emo-
luments received by the different Func-
tionaries in 1800 and in 1818." This
would show to the House, how far the
system of economy, which was now con-
sidered the order of the day, was attended
to. His third motion was for a Return
of the Amount of the Revenues of Gib-
raltar from 1760 up to 1820, distinguish.
ing each year; and also an Account of the


101] Gibraltar. MAY 1, 1820. [102
Garrison and other Expenses, together son of such high authority, was likely to
with the revenues transmitted to this mislead those who had not considered the
country." subject. He could not conceive any prin-
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, ciple of the law of nations which bore out
that he did not rise to oppose the motion; the assertion, that the power vested in an
indeed, he had not, with the exception of absolute prince became, in case of con-
a slight alteration, any objection to pro- quest, equally vested in a king whose
duce the whole of the accounts moved for. power was not absolute. The law of na-
He could not, however, help complaining tions only related to the regulation of ccr-
of the uncandid manner in which the hon. tain connexions between different nations,
member had charged both the governor and could not decide what power should
of Gibraltar and his majesty's council, in be exercised by a state over any territory
the course of his speech, with extrava- it conquered. That depended on the
gance and extortion. He did not wish, law and constitution of the country.
at present, to go at length into this ques- With respect to the law and con-
tion, as a proper period would arrive for stitution of this country, he would state,
its discussion. But he hoped members that if the right hon. gentleman, who
would reserve their opinions until that was so conversant with questions of this
discussion came fairly before them. With kind, recollected the case of Campbell
respect to what the hon. member had said and Hall, he would find that it was a very
relative to the right of the Crown over disputed point indeed, with whom the
conquered colonies, he conceived that right of legislation over a conquered ter-
there was no principle of the law of na- ritory rested. That, in one point of view,
tions more generally admitted than that it rested with the king was certain; but
which transferred to the conquering sove- whether the king in council, or the king
reign the rights exercised over such colony in parliament, had not, as he took it, been
by that power to which it previously be- yet decided by those grave authorities
longed. He did not mean to object to whose opinions on matters of such import-
the first or second resolutions; but to the ance were looked up to as conclusive. If
third, he would, if it were not altered, his hon. friend, whose laborious attention
propose an amendment, which was, that to this and other subjects which lay out
the whole account for the time mentioned of the way of the general pursuits and
should be produced, without specifying studies of the members of that House, and
the items from year to year. He wished for which he deserved the public thanks;
at the same time to observe, that there if he would take a suggestion from him,
was not any foreign port in which similar lie woild rather advise him to accept the
duties to those complained of were not proposal of the chancellor of the exche-
exacted. The right lion. member made quer, reserving to himself the right of
some observations relative to certain sums making a more extensive motion at a fu-
remitted from Gibraltar, and received by ture period. He thought the accounts
his late majesty. offered to be furnished would be, in a ge-
Sir J. Mackintosh, having had occasion neral point of view, imperfect; although,
to know something of the administration perhaps, for the purposes of the approach-
of affairs in Gibraltar, and being acquainted ing discussion, they might be sufficient.
with certain circumstances relating to the Mr. Goulburn complained of the un-
mode of making impositions on the inha- candid course that had been taken by the
bitants, could not but say that their rights lion. gentleman in bringing forward this
had not been treated with that regard and question. He protested against the state-
respect which in justice should have been ment which he had made, and which
extended to them. At the same time, he tended to impeach the character of indi-
meant to admit, that his majesty's govern- viduals, when merely moving for a return
ment, in the revision of the order in coun- of the amount of revenue raised at Gi-
cil, to which allusion had been made, had braltar. He protested against such a
manifested a very commendable anxiety course, because those charges could not
to do all they could to rectify a measure be contradicted at the moment. He had
which he looked upon as improvident and no difficulty in saying, that, throughout
bad. He could not, however, agree in the long reign of his late majesty, every
the interpretation of the law of nations disposition had been shown to attend to
which had been given by the right hon. the interests of the inhabitants on the one
gentleman, and which, falling from a per- hand, and to support the just rights of

nis country on the other. The hon. certain number of years, in order to show
;entleman had stated that he was ready the House where taxation had begun;
;o prove his charge-he (Mr. G.) was no which would not be affected by the ac-
less ready to show that they were not well count that would be laid before it. It
founded. The hon. gentleman observed, was said that his statements were erro-
that he had resided at Gibraltar. It had neous; but at the proper time he would
also been his fortune to have lived there, prove the truth of every charge he had
and he could therefore speak particularly made. The charge of having acted un-
to some circumstances. The hon. gen- candidly would apply much better to the
tleman asserted that, though Jews, Me- chancellor of the exchequer, who had im-
thodists, and Roman Catholics had places puted words to him which he had never
of worship there, the members of the used. With respect to the quibble about
Church of England were not furnished Protestant chapels, the admission of the
with a building for the performance of hon. gentlemen themselves was, that no
their religious duties. This was not the regular place of Protestant worship ex-
case. Whether from his being more in isted. He knew there was a garrison
the habit of going to church than the hon. chapel. He had himself attended divine
member, or from what other cause, he worship, when, he believed, it was per-
knew not; but certain it was that he found formed at governor Campbell's house;
a Protestant place of worship at Gibraltar, but there was no regular Protestant cha-
and went it ;..lil to church every Sun- pel for the inhabitants of the town.
day. The building was not a very exten- The third motion, as amendcd, was then
sive one, but it was commensurate with agreed to.
the size of the place, and the number of
Protestant inhabitants. He had seen the
troops mustered in it attending divine HOUSE OF LORDS.
service; and perhaps he might recal it to
the hon. ,'c tl:nm.i's mind, by mention- Fiday, May 5.
ing the monuments that were raised in it
to the memory of several officers who had INSOLVENT DEBTORS.] Lord Auclk-
fallen in the naval service. There were land rose to move for a committee to take
other parts of the hon. gentleman's speech into consideration the state of the Insol-
which he could meet and refute on grounds vent Debtors laws in England. It being
equally satisfactory. understood to be the wish of their lord-
Colonel Dalrymnlle said, the inhabitants ships, that such a committee should be
of Gibraltar were, for the most part, appointed, he thought it unnecessary to
Roman Catholics, Genoese, or foreigners trouble the House with any observations
of that description, and Jews ; an exten- upon the subject. In consequence of an
sive church was not, therefore, necessary. unfortunate omission in the act of last ses-
But there was a Protestant place of wor- sion for continuing the expiring laws, the
ship, and he had attended church for two operations of the Insolvent act had been
years. In that edifice there was no want suspended, and the effect had been the
of room for those who pleased to attend filling of the prisons of the metropolis to an
divine service. He did not think that the extent frightful to contemplate, and pro-
garrison of Gibraltar would thank the during an imminent danger of infectious
hon. gentleman, if they were burthened diseases. If to avoid this evil it should
with a tax for the erection of a church, be thought expedient that the debtor,
There were other inaccuracies in the state- through misfortune and not fraud, should
ment of the hon. gentleman, which, at a not be liable to the imprisonment to which
proper period, he would point out. he was now subjected; it would of course
The first and second motions were be considered just, that the creditor should
agreed to. have additional means afforded him of
Mr. Hume said, he had, in order to making the property of the debtor avail-
meet the objection of the chancellor of able, as a security, instead of that which
the exchequer, made the alteration which he now had upon his person. It waf
he had suggested in the third motion, chiefly to this point that he intended t<
That alteration had, however, defeated a call the attention of the committee. Hi
very considerable part of the object he lordship moved for the appointment of
had in view, which was, to ascertain the committee, which was ordered.
annual amount of revenue collected in a


Insolvent Debtors.


HOUSE OF CO MMON S. into it with unfeigned reluctance, entreat-
ing the right hon. the chancellor of the
Friday, May 5. exchequer to submit himself some suitable
MACHINERY-PETITION FROM WILT- proposition, which, coming immediately
SHIRE.] Mr. Benett presented a petition, from the ministers of the Crown-directed
signed by upwards of 6,000 persons, by their superior information, and, above
chiefly clothiers, clothworkers and manu- all, backed bytheirinfluencein that House
facturers of Wiltshire (as a proof of the might afford the means of an arrangement
respectability of whom, the hon. member beneficial to the public, and agreeable
said, that among the names were those of to all parties concerned. He begged
eleven magistrates, one of whom was the also to observe, that it was equally far
chairman of the quarter sessions), com- from his intention, on the present occasion
plaining of the number of manufacturers to suggest any thing to the House, either
who, in consequence of the introduction with the view-he would not merely say
of machinery and other causes, had been -of compassing the degradation of the
driven out of work, and were compelled royal dignity, but even of abridging those
to have recourse for subsistence to the pa- rights which were the rights and privileges
rochial rates. He could assure the House of the Crown, in any one the most mi-

that this petition did not proceed from any
political motive. There was no radical
feeling in Wiltshire. Among the manu-
facturers of that county, numerous as they
were, there existed no inclination to en-
courage sedition, or to obtain a remedy
for the evils which they suffered, except
by legal means. He hoped, therefore,
that this petition would be favourably re-
ceived by the House; and, however diffi-
cult the subject, that the House would
feel the necessity of taking every possible
means of mitigating the distress experi-
enced, not only by the petitioners, but by
the agricultural labourers, who looked to
parliament for some alleviation of their
case.-The petition was ordered to be

.Brougham said, that in rising to bring be-
fore the House the important subject of
which he had given notice,-important,
in so far as it was inseparably connected
with the question of the civil list,-he
trusted they would give him credit, when
he assured them it was very far from his
intention to trespass more than was abso-
lutely necessary upon their time and at-
tention. They would be the more disposed
so to give him credit, when he begged
leave to remind them that the bringing
forward this question upon the present
occasion was in reality none of his seek-
ing. But he stood pledged to submit
it to their consideration, and particularly
by what passed in 1812, in case his ma-
jesty's ministers should think proper to
omitit in theirarrangements. He appealed
to the recollection of honourable gentle-
men, whether he had not given that notice,
or rather whether he had not been driven

nute point, not only of what might be
deemed necessary in supporting its weight
in the constitution, but of those also which
were necessary to its dignity and just
splendor. If at any one period of our
history it would have been next to criminal
to have endeavoured to deprive the exe-
cutive government of that which was re-
quisite to its own maintenance and ho-
nour-and without honour it could not be
maintained-if they were necessary to
the peace and good government of the
country (for which the executive govern-
ment was entirely in trust), it would be
altogether criminal to attempt such a
measure in times like the present; for lie
went as far as any man, as far, he hoped
as any of his majesty's ministers, in de-
claring that these were not times in which
it became any lover of his country to
tamper with the existing institutions of
that country. He desired the support of
no gentleman to the resolution with which
he intended to conclude, but upon the
previous performance of this condition by
himself-that he should prove to the satis-
faction of all who voted with him, that
the measure he should propose was not
only safe but expedient-that it not only
did not degrade the Crown, but that it
manifestly tended to augment its dignity
-that it was founded on precedent con-
formable with principle, and steered
within the strictest lines of sound consti-
tutional practice.
Without further preface he would now
proceed, endeavouring to bring himself
within the limits he had already marked
out. He should assume (and he thought
lie might safely do so, after the subject
had been so frequently before the House)
thit it was needless for him to enter into

Droits of the Crown~, c-

MAY ,5, 1820. [106i

any didactic explanation of the origin, na-
ture, history, or enormous amount of the
funds embraced by the papers upon the
table. He should conclude that all who
heard him were possessed of sufficient in-
formation on these topics, and he would
therefore proceed to establish, as he
pledged himself to be able to do, that
some such arrangement as he should
suggest was called for by the situation in
which the country now found itself. It
was an old and confirmed maxim of our
constitution, sanctioned by the opinions of
the greatest lawyers, both on the bench
and at the bar, supported by the whole
current of the most venerable authorities,
that the Crown, as such, was incapable of
possessing separate property-in other
words that the king was anciently held to
possess all the lands lie held, jure corona
-they were called sacra patrimonia
corona: even lands which he possessed
in his private character, before the demise
of the crown, were forthwith deemed to
be holdenjure coronce. Suppose, for in-
stance, the case of the duke of Lancaster;
before the crown devolved to him, he was
seized of certain lands in his own right as
a private baron, but the law of England
held that the moment he became king his
private rights merged in his public capa-
city-he was no longer a terre tenant, but
he retained his possessions as holden by
right of the crown of England. Moreover,
even if a statute gave lands or any other
species of property to the king without
naming that it was given to him as king,
it had been held that he could only retain
them by right of the Crown. The law upon
this subject was quite clear, it was indis-
putable; and he would defy the other side
of the House to produce a single dictum
of a single lawyer, ancient or modern, to
the contrary : in fact, no man acquainted
even with the mere elements of the con-
stitution would dispute for a moment the
solidity of what he had just advanced.
He only wished tomention one remarkable
instance, to show how far this principle
had been carried; and it was the more in
point, as it related immediately to the
very property now in question. All trea-
sure had been held to be by so high a
title merely the property of the Crown,
that it had been deemed impossible for the
king to make any grant of it, excepting
under the privy seal, or great seal of the
realm ; and the opinion of the highest law
authorities proved, that one branch of the
very revenue now under consideration was

lMr. Brougham's Motion


Viewed precisely in this light. He alluded
to the opinions given by the chief justices
of the court of King's-bench and Common-
pleas, and the chief baron of the Exche-
quer, in the dispute between James 1st
and the earl of Devonshire, as to some
property claimed by the latter in old
stores-that antiquated multum vexata
question of old stores. This formed one of
the latest and best precedents he should
have to submit to induce the House to
adopt his proposition. Under his sign-
manual, the king had granted certain
quantities of old gun barrels, rusty-blades,
old powder, and rotten cartridge-paper,
on the preservation of which, it was now
argued by the other side, the dignity of
the sovereign so essentially depended.
The earl of Devonshire accordingly put
in his claim for a fulfilment of the grant
against the king's executors, and lord
Coke, who reported the case, used the
following words upon the subject:-" that
the treasure of the Crown" (such as old
stores, treasure trove, and the like,)
" being the ligament of peace, the pre-
server of the honour and safety of the
realm, and the sinews of war (esteant le
ligament de peace, le preserver del honor
et safetie del realme, et les sinewes de
guerre,) are in such high estimation in the
eye of the law, and, with other valuable
chattels, are so necessary and incident to
the Crown, that they shall go with it to
the king's successor, and not to his execu-
tors;" and, further on, he added, that the
only warrant sufficient to pass such trea-
sure must be under the great seal, or
privy seal of the realm. This great au-
thority, reported by such a man as lord
Coke, was of itself worth a hundred lesser
cases to the same effect. But le could
not help adverting to one other, quite as
remarkable, in the time of lord Clarendon,
when the old constitutional principles
were somewhat relaxed. The reign of
James 1st, formed one of the best periods
of our history, as far as regarded the
struggle between the House of Commons
and the executive government, on the in-
valuable principle of a constitutional jea-
lousy of the Crown. But in lord Claren-
don's time some relaxation of ancient
strictness had taken place; yet even then
the same law had been uniformly main-
tained. The case brought forward at this
period referred to certain prizes taken
from the Dutch, which the king, under his
sign-manual, had granted to lord Ashley,
afterwards lord Shaftesbury. On this

109] respecting the Droits of the Crown, 4.c.

subject lord Clarendon remonstrated, and
boldly used the signal language of the con-
stitution : he told the king, if a trea-
surer hath the keeping any treasure be-
longing to your majesty, without most
formally accounting for the same, your
majesty might be mostabominably cozened
in your grants; nor is there any other
way of avoiding it, but by issuing them
either under the great seal or under the
privy seal." And when lord Ashley, on
his own behalf, represented the matter to
lord Clarendon, the answer was not more
courteous. He told him that this was
an unusual and an unnatural privilege; and
as it was so, so could it never be allowed
in any court of exchequer, which would
exact from him accounts both of charge
and discharge; and if you, lord Ashley
(he added), think of depending on the ex-
emption given you from accounting under
his majesty's sign-manual, you may live to
repent the day you did so."
Thus much would suffice to show how
sacred the principle of the constitution
had been, that the king could have no
property independent of parliament, and
could never allow the issue of any of his
treasure without rendering the individual
accountable to the exchequer. The House
would probably ask when the first inroad
was made upon this constitutional princi-
ple, and he was sorry to say, that it was so
recent as to be within memory: it was
madeby Mr. Pitt, not longer ago than 1799,
when, for the first time, the sovereign, his
heirs and successors (for he grieved tosay
that the enactment was perpetual), were
enabled to have property in lands and
chattels, and to deal with it as their own,
by disposing of it by will or otherwise. So
completely were the whole of the ancient
constitutional principles upset by this bill,
that a doctrine was introduced, germane
indeed to the matter now before the
House, which showed how those who
now supported so strenuously and so
anxiously the dignity of the crown were,
at the period to which lie alluded, willing
to lower it in a manner that lord Clarendon
would have thought little short of profa-
nation. What would lord Clarendon, or
any of our old constitutional lawyers,
have said, if they could have seen the act
of which lie was now speaking, which em-
powered the king not only to dispose of
his crown lands, but to expend all the
money he might be able to amass in the
purchase of new property of all kinds,
which, like a common private individual,

he might bargain or sell again at a profit
-might give away in rewards to favou.
rites-might dispose of even to enemies
-or, pro tanto, setting the votes of par.
liament at defiance, might defeat the
whole system and policy of the constitu-
tion? But what would have been the as-
tonishment of the venerable authorities he
had mentioned, if they had seen one step
further taken, still more monstrous and
injurious in its consequences ? What
would they have said to powers given to
the king, even to hold copyholds, and
thus to become the tenant of his own
subject? Well, indeed, might those who
had accomplished this degrading innova-
tion talk of the honour and dignity of the
Crown, its ancient privileges, and its im-
posing lustre; and, on the opening of a
new parliament, in a new reign refuse to
enter upon the subject, because it was
inconsistent with the veneration which
the nation owed to its rightful sove-
reign !
6o much for the general question
of the treasury of the Crown. With
regard to the particular funds in ques-
tion, he was equally firmly established
on the opinions and decisions of the ablest
lawyers. He begged it to be observed,
that he was not going all lengths in argu-
ing this question, because, for a reason
She should presently give, though he had
never heard it from the other side of the
House, he was disposed to allow that, if
the Crown was now deprived of these
funds, some compensation ought to be
afforded. It was well known that in ancient
times, out of these resources and other
branches of the hereditary revenue, over
which parliament had no direct control,
the Crown was bound not only to maintain
its own splendor, but to provide for all
public servants : by degrees various alie-
nations of property, the gradual disuse of
feudal customs, and other causes, had
rendered its revenue inadequate for these
purposes, and it became necessary fur the
Crown to resort to parliament for sums to
meet the exigencies of particular occa-
sions-a most useful necessity; for far be
it from him not to admit that the liberties
of the country depended upon the gra-
dual abandonment, step by step, of the
more profitable, of the more vexatious,
and of the most ancient parts of the re-
sources of the Crown, and their gradual
merger in the constitutional parliamentary
revenue now granted by both Houses.
But of old, certain revenues were given

MAY 5, 1820. [110

Sthe Crown, not merely for the gratifi- tuition and good government of the
ation of the individual who wore the realm," (as it was worded in the statute
rnsigns of royalty, but were vested of Henry 8th), he still kept the whole
in him that he might be able to defray amount of his revenues from the droits of
the expenses of his government. He admiralty, amounting in the last reign to
would not refer the House to more not less than 13,700,0001. In one sen-
than one authority on this point, because tence, this was the beginning, middle, and
the position was so clear and indisputable, end of his argument. He had already
that it needed, in truth, no support be- said that he was in favour of compensa-
yond the common knowledge and com- tion; since, in his view, to adhere, under
mon sense of every man. Lord Coke existing circumstances, to the strict letter
held that wreck belonged to the Crown of the law, as it regarded the Crown, or
ex necessitate rei, because it must belong any other great public corporation, would
to somebody, and because there was no be the height of injustice: in the words
other owner: but other authorities viewed of the antiquated law maxim, the greatest
it in a different light; they held that injury or injustice often arose out of a
the Crown was entitled to wreck because close adherence to the line of justice.
the king was bound to keep the narrow Discretion might require, that that which
seas clear of pirates: and wreck, and had been long established, even though
other such perquisites, were necessary for ro legal title could be shown, should not
that purpose." The same doctrine had be disturbed: mere prudence, if not a
been laid down by some of the judges, regard for the safety of the constitution,
who decided the case of Ship-money. might render it unfit to vary what had
They decided, that treasure trove, royal been settled for ages; and if he found
fish, &c. were the property of the Crown, himself supported by analogy in another
for the purpose of enabling it to defend case, his opinion in this respect would be
the narrow seas and coasts of the realm. more confirmed.
Justice Crawley was, however, one of the I He was aware that on this subject he
doubters upon this point; for he reason- differed from some of his hon. friends,
ed, that royal fish were not the property but his opinion was in favour of compen-
of the Crown on this account-because station, and he supported it by the recol-
they were too small, and below the ac- election of a case exactly parallel. He
ceptance of the king, upon such condi- took his analogy from the manner in
tions. Yet they had not been found too which the public had dealt with another
small for the Crown in respect to its dig- great corporation ; and the House would
nity. This was rather a refinement of bear in mind that the point he was dis-
the learned judge; yet, according to him, cussing was, the propriety of allowing a
the sturgeon and the whale were all too claim in opposition to the strict legal
small. Had he lived to our times to see letter of right, as it respected the mo-
the droits of Admiralty, from the body of narch, that great civil corporation. If he
a whale or the tail of a sturgeon, swelled could show that there was a great analogy
to many, many millions of money, he between this civil corporation, as respect-
would not have argued that they were too ed the droits of the Admiralty, and an
small for the acceptance of the Crown. ecclesiastical corporation-the Church of
He wished not to be misunderstood: he England as respected tithes- he thought
admitted, that as the law now stood, a he should go far to satisfy many gentle-
great change had taken place in the ma- men that compensation ought to be al-
nagement of the revenue of the Crown. lowed. The House was probably aware
It had no longer to perform the duty of that the clergy were burthened with the
governing the country at home, of de- support of the poor, which, in thct, had
fending it from foreign foes out of its own occasioned the fourfold division of the
exclusive resources. Step by step, one tithes. By degrees it was found that
after another, the burthen of each branch they were inadequate to the purpose,
of the public expenditure had been re- more especially after the dissolution of
moved from the Crown and laid upon the the monasteries under Henry 8th. The
shoulders of the people. Yet, extraordi- great fund for the maintenance of paupers
nary as it might seem, though the king was thus'so much diminished, that it was
paid nothing towards the defence of his not thought just to keep the tithe-holder:
subjects, nothing towards driving pirates to the strict letter of the law. The clair
from the seas, nothing towards the was therefore tacitly, and but tacitly



Mr. B-roughamln's Motion

113] respecting the Droits of the Crown, 4c.

abandoned by the public. Here, then,
was a case precisely analogous to the pre-
sent. Originally the church had tithes
burthened with the support of the poor.
Originally the Crown had droits burthen-
ed with the payment of the public ser-
vice. Step by step, during the reigns of
Mary, Edward, and Elizabeth (for it was
not done by one statute, as was often
mistakenly supposed), the public under-
took the maintenance of paupers, and re-
lieved the clergy; and in the same way,
step by step, the Crown had removed
from the Crown the onerous duties that
formerly belonged to it. Compensation
was given to the clergy, by not requiring
them to do what they had before been
compelled to perform: and why in this
case ought not the analogy to be followed
up by taking possession of the droits of
the Crown, with its consent (for by con-
sent these matters were always arranged),
and assigning to it such an equivalent as
should be just, reasonable, and consistent
with the depressed state of the country ?
How this compensation should be ascer-
tained-whether upon an average of past
years, whether upon a computation of the
different amount of droits in peace and in
war-and in what way it should be paid,
were details with which he would not now
trouble the House: he only wished it to
support the general proposition, and to
countenance the propriety of making
some arrangement in the way of compen-
sation. While touching upon the subject
of arrangement, the observation, which
must have struck every man at all ac-
quainted with the documents regarding
the civil list, naturally forced itself upon
his mind, namely, that nothing could be
worse adapted either for distinctness to
its managers, intelligibility to the public,
or for the real comfort, honour, and dig-
nity of the Crown, than the whole me-
thod, if method it might be called, in
which the civil list had been settled.
Suppose any man, not very well versed
in the minutiae of finance were asked,
how much the revenues of the king of
England amounted to in a year, what an-
swer could be given ? He might appeal
to several honourable friends near him,
who had passed a long life in the investi-
gation of matters of public expenditure,
whether they would be able to give a
satisfactory reply without at least half an
hour's calculation. Every body could
tell what was the revenue of the French
king, of the American president, or for-

merely of the Dutch stadtholder; but as to
thesalary oftheking of England, with which
he supported the splendour and dignity of
his Crown, no man who was not a perfect
adept in finance could give any conclu-
sive information about it. Had not blun-
ders been already committed regarding
it, fatal to the dignity of the Crown?
When he said fatal to its dignity, he was
only using a strong mode of expressing
his sense of the great injury it had sus-
tained: the system of obscurity and mis-
management on the subject had in this
view been fatal to the dignity of the
Crown, but, if possible, more fatal to the
interests of the people. The same dark,
confused, Gothic arrangement existed at
the time Paine wrote his book, thirty
years ago, wherein he complained that
the king of England was a most expen-
sive public ollicer, and enjoyed 900,0001.
a-year for performing very easy and plea-
sant duties; adding, in his homely, coarse,
but strong and expressive language, I
will engage to find an able-bodied man
who will do it all for 5001. a-year." But
the serious part of his statement was, that
not one of the million to whom he ad-
dressed himself had the means of contra-
dicting his statement. Suppose any man
had told Paine, You are a gross and
wilful exaggerator; nay, I go further, and
say that you have stated a downright
falsehood;" he would reply, How do
you prove it to be untrue? Show it to be
false from your civil list." Oh," (his
antagonist must rejoin), the civil list
proves nothing: those sums are given not
only to pay a civil officer, but to support
the honour and dignity of the Crown."
Very well," (Paine would add), then
show us how much is for the civil office,
and how much for honour and dignity."
Here the dialogue must stop of necessity;
for, though a chancellor of the exchequer
might be able to give a satisfactory an-
swer (though he had seen a chancellor of
the exchequer, who, he more than sus-
pected, would be put to a non plus on
such an occasion), yet the thousand and
the million to whom Paine addressed him-
self would be as incapable of deciding the
matter, as if the dispute had related to
some of the nicest and most abstruse
points of law. But let the House look at
the title of the civil list acts, for the same
title was common to them all. From the
first hour they came into fashion to the
present moment, the words had been pre-
cisely the same. When, therefore, Paine

MAY 5, 1820. [114e

asserted that the king of England, merely
for filling a civil office, was paid 900,0001.
a-year, his antagonist might reply-" No
such thing; what does the civil list act
say, but that it is for the better support
of his majesty's household, and for the
honour and dignity of the Crown?" The
same retort, such as it was, would have
served, even had Paine survived to this
day; for the answer might have been fur-
nished out of the very explanatory reso-
lutions of the chancellor of the exche-
quer: it was declared to be the opinion
of the committee, that for the support
of his majesty's household, and for the
honour and dignity of the Crown," there
be granted so many hundred thousands
a-year. He (Mr. Brougham) demanded,
therefore, in support of the sovereign, in
support of his best rights, of his character
with his people, whether this was fair
play ? whether what he had read was a
just and true, or a foul and false, state-
ment ? Was it dealing fairly with the king
to mix up with the little he was allowed
(and a little it comparatively was) to de-
fray his private expenses, and really to
keep up his honour and dignity, the sala-
ries of the judges, the income of the
chancellor of the exchequer and his
friends, salaries to foreign ministers, and
a vast accumulation of claims and allow-
ances to officers, great and small, of all
sorts and conditions ? Some of them it
was below the dignity of the sovereign
even to name, and all below his true ho-
nour and character to have mixed up and
confounded with his own person and de-
mands. Was not the honour and dignity
of the Crown best consulted by keeping
all such accounts separate ?
But he should be told, that it was fit
and necessary that the old mystery should
continue, though in private life it could
be considered little short of absolute
drivelling to confound things in them-
selves so distinct. Would not any man
keep separate the accounts of wages and
salaries-of his butchers' and bakers' bills,
and of the expenses of his farm? He would
thus be able to see by which of his con-
cerns he gained, and by which he lost;
and might with convenience at the end
strike a balance, and ascertain what sur-
plus remained in hand. Yet what was
the strange advice of the chancellor of
the exchequer ? Jumble the whole
together, confound one account with an-
other, in such a manner that it shall re-
quire an acute and accurate accountant,

Mr. Brougham's Motion


with much knowledge of finance, to de-
cide how much is paid fog wages, how
much for the necessaries of life, or how
much is expended on improvements."
" But," cried the right hon. gentleman op-
posite, to simplify matters in this way,
to make accounts clear and explicable,
would be beneath the dignity of the
Crown." Admitting it for a moment,
was there nothing to be gained by it-
were popularity and the full approbation
of the king's subjects worth no consider-
ation? Supposing there might be some
slight defalcation of dignity, was there no
advantage in preventing great defalca-
tions of a pecuniary kind, which had
been perpetually occasioned by this ab-
surd, confused, Gothic mode of keeping
accounts ? After all, where would be the
loss of dignity, if the people told their
prince-" You shall be paid largely, libe-
rally, cheerfully, without a murmur from
the people, who well know that your in-
terests and theirs are inseparably united
-not as at present, but by a fixed, con-
stant, determined grant out of the conso-
lidated fund." That, in truth, was his
proposition; but the chancellor of the
exchequer, in his love for mystery, seemed
to think that there was something sublime
in obscurity. The misfortune for him,
however, was, that we lived in a prying
age, when men would not be satisfied
with being told that they must not exa-
mine and scrutinize; and when they did
inquire, they would find that, among the
hereditary revenues of the Crown, the
sovereign did not think it below his dig-
nity to have his revenue made up of one
penny per barrel upon ale, and one half-
penny per gallon upon whiskey. This
paltry pittance was accepted in exchange
for the great feudal relics of wardship
and purveyance-the especial jewels in
the crown of a feudal sovereign-the
gems that gave glorious lustre to his an-
cient, real, and solid dignity.
He would now call the attention of the
House to the report of the committee of
1815, which gave evidence of such mis-
management as he had never before seen,
nor even heard of. It pointed out the
origin of that confusion which appeared
almost to be the incurable disease of the
civil list. They would there find that a
part of the royal family was provided for
by grants from the consolidated fund,
while the provision for another part was
charged on the civil list. The sovereign
was there recommended to give up a

171 ritp,~cl.'.' the Droils of ie Crotun, SAv.

great part of the civil list, and to receive chequer watchmen." He did not know
a remuneration out of the consolidated whether the gentlemen opposite looked
fund, and he believed a bill was intro- strictly after them; but it appeared that
duced for that purpose. But this was these individuals were paid the moderate
not all. The House was not aware of sum of 108/. a-year, as a reward for their
the company into which the sovereign vigilance in guarding the public purse.
was forced, in consequence of the present He hoped those who moved in a higher
system. No petty prince, no baron of sphere, where dignity of station was con-
the German empire, was ever placed in sidered, but perhaps profit more, and
worse company than was the king of Eng- whose demands amounted yearly to thou-
land, by the present classification of the sands, would prove themselves to be
civil list. If they would look to page 51< equally good and faithful guardians of
of the report, they would find mentioned, the Exchequer as these watchmen were
amongst other high characters, the vicar allowed to be. He, however, defied the
of the Tower. This great officer of state gentlemen opposite, be they ever so well
(and he wished all other state officers intentioned-he defied the officers and
were equally useful and equally cheap) advisers of the Crown, pure as their views
was set down for a stipend of 61. 13s. 4d. and feelings might be-let their objects
He was connected with the seventh class. be ever so upright, and their economy
The different claimants rose, step by step; ever so rigorous-to do their duty to the
but this individual, ranked as he was with public as in these times it ought to be
those who received thousands, only cost done, so long as the civil list continued
his afflicted country 61. 13s. 4Id. Then to present to the people a page of inex-
came the vicar of St. Botolph, Aldgate, plicabic mystery.
who received it. 15s. They next arrived He would now briefly call the attention
at a certain set of officers, who, although of the House to the reasons which made
not always treated with respect, were him think it absolutely necessary that a
certainly very useful he meant the different arrangement should take place.
churchwardens! There was a sum of His notion of the civil list was, that what-
71. Ils. 4d. set down for the church- ever appeared to be necessary for uphold-
wardens of St. John the Baptist; and ing the state and dignity of the monarch
for the schoolmaster of Southwell 101. should be liberally and cheerfully given.
The ark itself did not contain a greater ITe conceived that it should not be voted,
variety of beings than were to.be found once for all; but that it should continue
marshalled in the civil list. There were as long as those circumstances remained
corporations sole, and corporations cor- under which it was granted. When they
porate-persons of every description- became altered, it was right that parlia-
individuals of all degrees-but, generally, ment should make a new arrangement.
four or five of each; sometimes, indeed, i Why was the settlement made permanent?
to make the thing the more extraordinary, Because, for the term of his life, the
there was only one. The two universities sovereign gave up his hereditary reve-
were also introduced. There were fel- nues. But, notwithstanding that, circum-
lows without end. Emanuel college, he stances might, from time to time, make
supposed, for pre-eminence, stood by it- the old arrangement improvident. It
self. Then came the corporation of' was, indeed, most fallacious to say that
Lyme-Regis, to whom a payment of' you must take the hereditary revenues
was to be made, towards the erection of for the life of the king; and, in conse-
their pier. Then there were the master quence, that you must allow him a certain
of the field sports, the master of the grant, without the possibility of revising
hawks, and the master of the ceremonies, the arrangement. It might, in this in-
But not only were those who superin- stance, be a short life, which God forbid !
tended the chase, the amusement of it might be a long and prosperous one,
hawking, and the dance, paid out of the which God grant but, with this contin-
civil list; the expenses incidental to the agency before them, it was the greatest
keeping of wild beasts were also entered blunder that sensible men ever made, or
amongst the items. The keeper of the could ever make, to come at once to a final
lions in the Tower was enumerated arrangement of the civil list. The House
amongst the officers; and not far from could be practically convinced of this
him they would find the gentleman usher fact. His late majesty reigned for sixty
of the Black Rod. Next came the Ex- years; and during that period thert

INTAY5, 180. [ is

were six new arrangements, besides eight
different payments in aid of the civil list.
It would appear that even nine years
were too long for the continuance of this
provident system. The arrangement of
1760 was made as if it were supposed
that the monarch was to live only nine
years; but in 1769 a debt of half a mil-
lion had accumulated; and in 1777 it was
found necessary to grant 100,0001. more
per annum. An arrangement for life
could not proceed on any one conceivable
principle. The existence of the monarch
might be short; in which case the provi-
sion might happen to be too much-it might
be long, and then, perhaps, the provision
would be too little. The only impartial
course was, for parliament to take posses-
sion of those hereditary revenues-to
place them to the account of the consoli-
dated fund, and to pay, from the latter,
a proper sum to maintain the dignity of
the Crown. They should wholly separate
from the civil list the salaries of the
judges, the salary of the Speaker of the
'House of Commons-a situation that
should be as independent as that of the
sovereign himself--and the payments
made to foreign ministers. There was a
great number of contingent charges con-
nected with the civil list. These were, a
sum of 35,0001. to be given to this minis-
ter-a sum of 32,0001. to be paid to a
colonel somebody for a trip to Paris. He
did not mean to say that these were im-
proper; they might be verynecessary. But
let any individual look over the accounts,
and he would at once perceive that the
whole of these items would be as soon paid,
if an estimate of them were laid on the
table of this House, unless they were
manifestly improper, as they were under
the existing system. Why could not
these demands be submitted to the House,
in the same way as the army extraordi-
naries were laid before them ? Why could
they not be introduced by estimate and
proposal? Why should not questions be
asked, and explanations be given, within
the walls of that House? That was the
only course that could satisfy the public
-that could enforce economy -that
could prevent abuse. There might be a
difference of opinion on one point-he al-
luded to the household expenses, and the
manner of defiaying them. On that sub-
ject he would give no decided opinion;
but he thought an estimate of those bills
might be made, and provided for, ade-
quate to the dignity of the Crown, and

Mr. Brougham's Motion

commensurate with the situation of the
country. As to all other charges, there
was no shadow of reason for not granting
them out of the consolidated fund.
With respect to that separate fund, the
droits of Admiralty, which had been so
often before the House, it possessed all
the bad qualities of a fund of that descrip-
tion. It was a large, lumping sum of mo-
ney, which might be perverted (and the
possibility was quite sufficient for his ar-
gument) to bad and dangerous purposes.
If the House asked him for an instance in
which that fund had been abused, he was
not bound to answer the question; but he
would, notwithstanding, advert to some
cases which fortified his observation. In
the first place, he would mention to the
House how the sums which formed the
droits of the Crown accrued. Gentlemen
supposed that they were confined to droits
of the Admiralty; but they were greatly
mistaken. There were other sources that
placed large sums in the hands of the
Crown. In 1807, the sum of 130,0001.
fell to the Crown, in consequence of the
demise of a rich lunatic-at least, so he
understood. In the same year, an indi-
vidual who had no heirs, died intestate;
his property, to the amount of 47,0001.,
went to the Crown. In 1809, the Crown
got possession of62,0001. in the same way.
He did not mean to say, that the enor-
mous expenses of the Crown did not de-
mand large supplies; but he would con-
tend that a fund of this description, be-
yond the reach of parliament, possessed
the worst qualities. Other sums, much
larger in amount, were supplied from dif-
ferent sources. In 1804, prize-money to
the amount of 105,000/. was received on
one occasion. In the same year there
was another sum of 40,0001., and a third
of 55,0001. In 1806, those droits were
augmented by 155,0001.; and at one pe-
riod there came in nearly the whole pro-
ceeds of the Dutch prizes, amounting to
1,057,0001. From the Spanish condem-
nations the sum of 2,200,0001. was deriv-
ed. So that large sums were not wanting
in the list any more than small ones.
His late majesty was graciously pleased,
in the session of 1806, to communicate to
parliament, that, in consideration of the
heavy expense of carrying on the war,
and the distressed state of the country,
he would, out of his own particular funds,
grant a sum of 1,000,0001. in aid of the
supplies for the year. The House voted
his majesty a loyal and grateful address,


121] respecting the Droits of the Croh
in consequence of his liberality. Did he,
in mentioning this, mean to insinuate that
the House behaved too obsequiously, in
expressing their grateful acknowledgments
for the gift of a million sterling, to enable
the country to carry on what (at that
time) was an unfortunate war? He in-
tended no such thing. But he must say,
that their forefathers would have stared to
see a thing so unusual. They would have
been astonished if they had beheld the
monarch, instead of calling on parliament
to assist him with a tenth, coming down
to the House as a giver and dispenser of
money-as the benefactor of those from
whom, according to the safe and sacred
course of the constitution, all money, for
public purposes ought to come! Here
they had matters reversed-the Crown,
not asking for assistance, but giving it;
-that House, not requesting aid, but the
Crown, of its own mere motion, imparting
it;-parliament not receiving the royal
approbation for its liberality, b:ut thank-
ing the Crown for its benevolence, in giv-
ing up a sum of money which was equal
to an extensive impost. There was ano-
ther source, too, of great importance,
though not so productive as those to
which he had alluded, the proceeds of
which were applicable to the same pur-
pose. He meant the revenue derivable
from Barbadoes and the Leeward Islands,
from Gibraltar, from Scotland, &c. which
amounted to a very large sum. How was
it disposed of?-In pensions. It was not
under the control of parliament, and might
be expended as the reward of good ser-
vices or bad services, or as the meed of
favouritism, or for no services at all. So
that the property of those dying intestate
or lunatic, the proceeds of certain cap-
tured vessels, and the other sources of re-
venue which he had mentioned, might all
be employed in the furtherance of corrupt
practices or of special jobs, or to induce
individuals to undertake particular duties.
He did not mean to say this in an invi-
dious sense. He would not contend that
such an use had been made of those funds.
He merely alluded to the possibility of
their abuse; and he conceived that pen-
sions derived from those occasionally-ac-
cumulating funds were not so pleasing to
the public as those which came through
the more regular and steady channel of
the legislature. If any pension were ne-
cessary to be granted to a great naval
or military character-to earl St. Vin-
cent, to lord Hutchinson, to lord Nelson,

or their heirs-was there an individual in
that House who would not feel it to be
his duty to recommend a grant to those
gallant commanders, or their relatives ?
If such a proposition were made, it was
sure to be carried ? But the privilege of
the Crown was not always so wisely ex-
erted. Individuals were honoured with
pensions who had not assisted in defeating
Buonapart6 in Egypt, nor in effecting any
other public service. The right hon. gen-
tleman opposite, for instance, had the
good fortune to obtain a pension. He did
not, however, mean to say that he did not
deserve it. Lady Grenville had also pro-
cured a pension. He introduced that
circumstance, because he thought it fair
to give an example from his side of the
House as well as from the other. He did
not mean to say that those individuals
would not have procured their pensions if
application had been made to parliament;
but he was well assured that they would
not have got them so unanimously, as that
House would have conferred a similar
mark of approbation on lord Hutchinson,
earl St. Vincent, or lord Nelson: and he
was equally well convinced, that no minis-
ter would have proposed a pension so
cheerfully to the persons to whom he had
in the first instance adverted, as to those
whom he had recently named. No: a
minister proceeded in a different course.
He deemed it more advisable, where there
was any doubt of success to screw a pen-
sion out of some fund over which parlia-
ment had no control, rather than bring it
under the consideration of the House.
Doubtless, the right hon. gentleman op-
posite, to whom he had before adverted,
deserved his pension [Hear, hear!]
This cheer proved the truth of his argu-
ment. If a pension had been called for
by that House, to reward the merits of
those great commanders whom he had
mentioned, he should not have heard the
voice of his hon. friend (Mr. Wynn) ;but
the moment the pension of the right hon.
gentleman opposite and that which was
granted to one of the Grenville family
were noticed, the mind of his hon. friend
was roused, and his jealousy was awakened.
He was sure his hon. friend would have
raised his voice against those pensions,
and that they would not, at all events,
have been carried unanimously. [Hear!]
When he recollected the case of sir Home
Popham, he could not but join in opinion
with those who declared that those funds
were sometimes abused. At the end of a

MAY 5, 1820.


long war, when a peace of proportionate
length was supposed to have been attain-
ed, that gallant officer, feeling all the ar-
dour of a high and generous mind, and
disliking sloth, inactivity, and idleness,
sought the field of his former glory, the
theatre of his bold achievements. Ena-
moured of glory, and wishing to gain new
laurels by exploits on the ocean, where
he had already been so successful, he en-
gaged in a smuggling transaction! [A
laugh.] Different men sought fame by
different roads. One individual looked
for it in the field of battle, where lie would
perhaps find death ; another sought for it
through the medium of smuggling, and
found captors. The gallant officer having
procured simulated papers, and all other
instruments necessary for his purpose,
proceeded on board his ship, which he
named the Etrusco. He sailed for the
East Indies, where he arrived in safety.
But the best-conducted enterprises some-
times failed, particularly on an element
which was as proverbial for its uncertain-
ty, as it was famous for the glorious scenes
that had been acted on it. Commodore
Robinson unfortunately fell in with and
captured this great contrabandist, and his
vessel was condemned by a competent
jurisdiction. But how did the matter
end? Instead of handing over the pro-
ceeds of the ship and cargo to the captor,
who had done his duty to the country,
20,0001. and the expenses of the suit were
given to the gallant officer, to comfort him
under his disappointment. Sir Home
Popham, it appeared, was a man of fine
feeling-indeed, the man of sentiment and
the hero always went together. His fa-
mily, at the time to which he alluded, was
on shore, and sir Home thought," I have
exposed myself to the perils of the sea, to
the rage of the enemy, and to tile perse-
cution of the king's proctor; and God
forbid, when I have an opportunity of see-
ing my family, that I should stay on
board." He accordingly went on shore
in a boat. But what became of the boat,
or rather, as Mr. Windham had said, of
the two boats? That would be presently
seen. A soft intercourse was observed to
be carried on during the night, between
the boats and sir Home's family, and the
sentimental trips from the ship to the
shore continued until morning. But there
was another person, whose case was much
harder than that of this gallant officer,
who had not supplied any of the money
necessary for furnishing out the adven-

Mr. Brougham's Motion [12',
ture. That individual was Mr. Charnock,
of Ostend, who procured the funds that
were requisite: so that the person who
advanced the money lost all, while he who
originally had none received a very large
sum. This was unfortunate for Mr. Char-
nock; but such circumstances would hap-
pen to the best of smugglers [A laugh.]
He stated this, as one instance, to prove
the possibility of these funds being abused.
Of one thing he was quite certain, that,
whether it was right or wrong, the minis-
ter who had those funds at his command,
although he might propose pensions in an
open and public way, if he pleased, would
always take a more secure and secret
course-that of conferring them out of
these droits.
Bu t,ifthese droitswere suspiciousin their
progress, and of dangerous application in
their result, they were, he thought, in their
origin, ten thousand times worse. They of-
fered a temptation to the Crown and the mi-
nister to embark in wars, which ought not
to be thrown in their way. When he said
this, he did not believe that any sovereign,
since the reign of Charles 2nd, would in-
volve himself and his country in a war,
merely for the gain of a few millions. The
idea, however, that during a contest, eight
or nine millions would be added to these
funds, might mitigate the dislike to a state
of warfare in the minds of some men. He
did not, however, mean to argue the ques-
tion in that point of view-because he be-
lieved that no king would go to war, that
no minister would plunge his country into
hostilities, for gains of this kind. But un-
doubtedly the effect of the system was to
make them go to war in an un-English
manner. The tendency of those funds
was, to give ministers a direct interest in
proceeding to hostilities before a declara-
tion of war, and thus they lowered the
honour and character of the country
[Hear!]. Gentlemen who had heard this
subject discussed were aware of what he
was about to state; but, for the informa-
tion of those who were not conversant
with the question, he would observe, that
every prize made before declaration of
war, was a droit of the Crown, and was
added to those funds. Let gentlemen only
observe the nature of those funds and ask
themselves whether they ought not to be
viewed with jealousy ? Let them consi-
der well whence they arose, and how they
accrued, and they would find that they
were premiums for going to war without
the usual proclamation. On those funds

125] respecting the Droits of the Crown, 4,c.

ought to be written, in indelible charac-
ters (he feared it was already written in
characters of blood on the pages of our
history)-" These funds are the purchase-
money of the honour, the good faith, the
pure and unsullied good name of Eng-
land." If he wanted a proof that they
were so, he had only to refer to the Dutch
war in the time of Charles 2nd: that war
was undertaken for the purpose of seizing
the Smyrna fleet-for which perfidious
action Providence punished that monarch,
by overwhelming him and his ministers in
discomfiture and disgrace. But, to come
to later times, what did they think of the
Dutch-what of the Spanish prizes ?
2,200,0001. were acquired by attacking
unarmed, defenceless men-men who
knew of no reason for such a proceeding,
except that they had dollars on board
their ships [Hear, hear!]. He vowed to
God, he had never yet talked to a British
officer on the subject-lie had never
spoken of it to a gallant officer with whom
he had the honour of being connected,
and who had the misfortune of taking a
part in the transaction-but the events of
that day were described as sufficient to
make an English seaman hang his head
with shame. It was, however, enough for
his argument to show, that a fund of this
kind was a fertile source of temptation.
Charles 2nd had yielded to that tempta-
tion, and other monarchs might hereafter
pursue the same course. All foreign na-
tions deemed this country most liable to
be plunged into a war for the purpose of
enlarging this fund; and that circum-
stance alone ought to cause the House to
unite in wiping away so foul a stain from
the national character. They ought the
more readily to do so because it would
take from their enemies and rivals who
were continually slandering the nation on
that account, all reason and all induce-
ment for continuing their abuse. His
advice, in plain terms, was this:-let
the Crown be requested to give up
those funds; let a proper remuneration
be given for them; let fair and just
terms be offered; and henceforth let the
dignity and splendor of the monarch
be supported out of the consolidated
fund. Similar changes had been for-
merly effected. The same thing was done
in the reign of Henry 8th, when an
act of parliament was passed, by which
the power of the Crown, with respect to
certain ecclesiastical matters, was limited.
The 12th of Charles 2nd afforded another

instance. By that act, the right of ward-
ship, knights' services, and several other
privileges were surrendered. He particu-
larly called on the House to look to the
preamble of that act, which ran thus-
" Whereas wards, purveyances, &c., and
their consequences on the realm, have
been found, in practice, more burthen-
some and grievous to the kingdom than
beneficial to the king." This was pre-
cisely the principle on which he acted in
calling for an alteration of the system
with respect to these funds, which were
more injurious to the kingdom than bene-
ficial to the king. Again, by the statute
of Anne, first fruits and tenths were given
up, although they had been conferred on
Henry 8th, to hold to him and his heirs,
independent of all church claimants. As to
the four and a half per cent fund, he did
not consider that in the same light. How
that fund came into the possession of the
Crown he did not exactly know. The
subject was involved in considerable ob-
scurity. All he could find was, that in
1663 an act was passed by which the
island of Barbadoes granted unto the king
a duty of four and a half per cent on their
native commodities, expressly for the
maintenance of the public sessions for the
reparation of the forts, for the building of
a sessions-house and a prison, and all
other public charges incumbent on the
government. How long this fund was
applied according to its original intention
he did not know : by degrees, however,
it was usurped, and, instead of its being
appropriated to purely colonial purposes
the mother country got hold of it for her
own use. At length it came into the
sole possession and use of the Crown.
How this happened he had not been able
to trace ; but he saw from the parliamen-
tary records, that after the restoration of
Charles 2nd, during the reigns of James
2nd, and even,of William, this fund was enu-
merated as a matter of course, and with-
out observation, among the smaller
branches of the hereditary revenue : it
was not, however, described as a droit.
At last, in the reign of queen Anne, there
came a petition from Barbadoes and the
Leeward islands complaining of the mis-
application of the fund. The House lis-
tened to the petition, and, acknowledging
that the fund had not been applied as it
ought to have been, addressed the queen
to restore it to its proper uses. Her ma-
jesty accordingly gave it up for the pur-
poses for which it had first been granted.

MAY 5, 1820. [126

After this he lost sight of the fund, and
could not discover by what process it be-
came a droit of the Crown. It was some-
what curious that after queen Anne's ac-
knowledgment that it was not hers, that
it belonged to the colonies, and that par-
liament had the control of it, it should
neither go to the use of the colonies, nor
fall under the inspection of parliament,
but make a dead stop, and become the
absolute property of the Crown. So it
was, but the cause and history of the fact
were buried in obscurity; all that was
known was, that it was the fund for
obscure pensioners of all descriptions
He regretted that he had detained the
House so long: all that he begged of the
House was, to consider that the arguments
adduced by the other side of the House
when he last brought this motion forward,
did not now apply; it was now a new
reign; and if now, in opposition to the
clear law of the question, in opposition to
the constitutional view of its principle, in
the face of numerous precedents of mis-
chievous abuse derived from history-if
now the House neglected the opportunity
of wiping away a foul blot on the honour
of the country, by giving up a vile relic of
feudal barbarism, useless for any national
purposes, and serving only as an occasion
of calumny to our carping rivals and bit-
ter enemies-if now when this mischief
could be done away, without injury to the
Crown and with benefit to the people, the
House should suffer the opportunity to
be lost, it would, in fact, go the length of
saying that these droits ought to remain
for ever a lasting anomaly in the law and
constitution, a perennial source of abuses,
and a perpetual stigma on the character of
the country [Loud and repeated cheering
for some minutes]. The hon. and learned
gentleman concluded with moving, "That
it is expedient with a view to the arrange-
ment of his majesty's civil list, to take
into consideration the Droits of the Crown
and Admiralty, four and a half per cent
West India duties, and other funds not
usually deemed hitherto to be within the
immediate control'of parliament, and to
make such provisions touching the same
as may be consistent with the honour and
dignity of the Crown, the interests of the
subject, and the maintenance of the con-
-Mr. Canning began by observing, that
if any stranger had entered the House
during the last few sentences of the hon.

Mr. Brougham's Motion


and learned gentleman's speech, without
knowing what had been his previous ar-
gument, such stranger would have been
induced, from his high tone of indignant
remonstrance, to imagine that the hon.
and learned gentleman had been called
upon by some pressing necessity to make
a stand against some new assault of arbi-
trary power-some sudden encroachment
of ministerial rapacity. He would have
conceived, as soon as he learned the sub-
ject of debate, that some extraordinary
augmentation to the royal income was
contemplated; and this, without any re-
gard had to the present state of the coun-
try, and utterly inconsistent with the uni-
versal and acknowledged practice of the
constitution. That stranger, must, how-
ever, have been somewhat surprised at
the motion which followed this vehement
declamation, for he would see that the
motion distinctly recognized that the
funds in question had never been deemed
as under the control of parliament, and had
always been dealt with as it was now pro-
posed to deal with them. If this stranger
had heard the speech without the motion,
he would have thought that all the inno-
vation was on his (Mr. Canning's) side of
the House, and that the hon. and learned
gentleman was the champion of established
usage; he could not have supposed that
no new burthen was intended, but on the
contrary, a strict adherence to an old
compact, which had been long and well.
considered; and that he who declaimed
so loudly in favour of the constitution was
the first to propose innovation, and, as the
price of such innovation, was willing to
impose a new burthen on the people. As
to the temptation thus held out to his side
of the House, he could answer for his
colleagues, and (he trusted he might say
it without disrespect) he could answer for
the Crown, that they and it would reject
the boon which was offered as an induce-
ment to sell the royal prerogatives. He
could assure parliament that there was no
disposition on the part of his majesty's
ministers to depart from a practice made
sacred by long prescription, unless, indeed,
some system was presented to them whose
advantages were obviously greater than
those incident:to the present usage. As
to one branch of the funds under consider-
ation, that connected with the droits of
admiralty, the hon. and learned gentleman
objected not only to its disposal and ge-
neral administration, but had argued that
the fund should be abandoned altogether.

129J respecting the Droits of the Crown, c.

In his view the fund had made the country obtained. All that was desired on the
odious throughout Europe. Now, sup- part of the king's ministers was, to adhere
posing this to be the fact, he did not see to the old arrangement without any aug-
how the ease would be bettered by putting mentation; and it was too much to say,
such a fund under the control of parlia- you are too well satisfied, and it is our
ment. The character of the country duty to see whether we cannot take
would be left just as it was. In order to something from you as a punishment for
be consistent with his argument, the mo- being so easily contented." The hon.
tion of the hon. and learned gentleman and learned gentleman had fairly, indeed
should have been of a different descrip- more than fairly, professed his willingness
tion-it should have been an address to to make compensation for all he should
the Crown to abolish the fund altoge- take away; so that the question, as far as
other. In addition to its inconsistency, the his argument was concerned, was not one
motion has been interposed in a most uhu- of diminution or retrenchment, but of bar-
sualmannerand season. During fourreigns, gain and sale, with the chance of inflicting
and for upwards of a century, the invari- further burthens on the people.
able practice had been, that the settle- The hon. and learned gentleman had
ment of the civil list should be the first 'derived his arguments from historical pre-
subject arranged by parliament at the be- cedents, some of which, however, had not
ginning of a new reign. The hon. and been stated with his usual accuracy. He
learned gentleman might, perhaps, in- should take the liberty of following him
quire, why, then, did not ministers bring shortly through some of his cases. To
the subject forward before the dissolution ? begin with the 41 per cent fund; it was
To this he would answer, that it being undoubtedly true, as had been stated by
evident that the public business could not the hon. and learned gentleman, that it
be brought to a close within such reason- was a subject involved in considerable
able time as belonged to the constitutional difficulty and obscurity. It was true that
existence of the old parliament, it had queen Anne, on the petition of the inha-
been thought adviseable, for the benefit bitants of Barbadoes, had, at the recom-
of all, that the dissolution should take mendation of the House of Commons.
place immediately. He could not enter given up her control over this fund; it
now into all the reasons of the measure, was also true that the original grant to
but he could say that it was adopted in the Crown had been accompanied with a
the most perfect spirit of fairness and can- stipulation that it should be employed in
dour. As soon, however, as the new the repairs of the public works of the
parliament was assembled, it was naturally island. But he believed, that though this
its first business to arrange the civil list. was the consideration of the grant, yet its
The proposition from the throne stated origin was the giving up of some quit-
that no new burthen was contemplated rents, and the settling of a disputed title.
for the support of the civil government It was true that queen Anne, in answer to
and of the splendor of the Crown. It the application of the House of Commons
asked nothing beyond the last arrange- for an annual account of the duties, pro-
ment; with respect to which it might be mised to give directions accordingly.
observed, that from the experience of The result was, that this fund, which had
four years it had answered the expecta- formed part of the civil list of king Wil-
tions of those who framed it. It was un- liam, did not appear in her civil list, and
graciously said, that though no new fund had not since appeared, except when
was wanted, yet it was the business of the called for from time to time by ad-
House to see whether there was not some- dresses of parliament. The usage, how-
thing totake away. Forhimself, hecertainly ever, of four reigns, a space of upwards of
had not anticipated such an objection; and a century, established the existence of the
he thought it neither expedientnorfair. If property, and the custom and power of
the civililist exceededthe usual stipulation, granting pensions on it were co-existent
then there was a cry of wasteful excess; if with the first mention of its origin. The
it came within the usual limits, then parlia- lion. and learned gentleman had asserted,
ment was called upon to examine into such that when a pension was to be bestowed
suspiciouseconomy, and toseeif something for great public services, ministers had no;
might not be cut away by act of parlia- hesitation in coming to parliament, be-
ment from funds which were already re- cause parliament in such case, had no re-
trenched, without permission first had and luctance in giving; but that it was the

MAY 5, 1820. [130

evil of those uncontrolled funds, that they
enabled the Crown to bestow secret
bounties on obscure favourites. This was
a singular character ofa fund, one of the
first names on which was the illustrious
William Pitt, earl of Chatham; and one
of the last, Edmund Burke. He would
not say any thing as to the deserts of
either of these pensioners; but, as to the
point of secrecy, he would ask, whether
the names of William Pitt and Edmund
Burke were not precisely those which
were most known over the whole king-
dom ? And surely the Crown would not
have granted pensions to those illustrious
men on a doubtful fund, the title to which
was likely to be disputed. The popula-
rity, indeed, of lord Chatham was so
great, as to shut the eyes of the people,
however illegal the title might have been:
but it was not so with Edmund Burke,
high as that great man stood in the admi-
ration of Europe, he was not so generally
popular at home; at the same time he
was of a size to attract universal attention ;
he had himself been a reformer of the civil
list and of the pension list, and any grant
made to him would be watched with pe-
culiar jealousy. Must he not therefore
himself have felt convinced that his pen-
sion was charged on a solid fund ? [Hear
and a laugh.] If any gentleman wished to
degrade that illustrious statesman, he left
them to the consolation of such a sneer;
but, for himself, he would say that the
great man to whom he alluded was as far
above ridicule as he was above praise.
His reason, however, for alluding to him
was, to show that he had deeply studied
the subject of the Crown revenues; and
knowing that his right to a pension would
be disputed, he would not have accepted
one on a fund the validity of which was
not ascertained. The only objection,
therefore, that could remain as to this
fund, was its liability to abuse. Mr.
Burke, when he was reforming the civil-
list, had examined its character and use;
and, after the deepest consideration, had
thought it best to leave it at the disposal
of the Crown. As to its liability to
abuse, from the concealment with which
its proceeds might be distributed in pen-
sions, he was ready to state, for himself
and colleagues, that the amount of
that fund, and its application, should be
laid annually before parliament, as matter
of course, and without any previous mo-
tion [Hear, hcar!]. The hon. and learned
gentleman had not explained how the

Mr. Brougham's Motion


droits of admiralty were to be adminis-
tered except by the Crown. The right of
the Crown to this property he would not
now discuss, but only the mode in which
it had been administered. In the course
of the late reign, the whole proceeds of
this fund had amounted toabout9,700,0001.
Out of this there had been paid to captors
and claimants and for various law ex-
penses 5,372,0001. There remained,
therefore, something more than 4,000,0001;
to be accounted for. Out of that sum
2,600,0001. had been contributed for the
public service: and two several sums had
een given-one in aid of the civil-list,
the other of the 4; per cent fund; the
first of these contributions was 1,300,0001.;
the second 40,0001.: there remained,
therefore, about 380,0001. to be accounted
for: this sum had been paid partly in do-
nations to different branches of the royal
family, and partly in entertainments to fo-
reign sovereigns. The expenditure, how-
ever, of the whole, had been communi-
cated to parliament. It was true, that
the account had not been laid before the
House as a matter of course, but in con-
sequence of motion and discussion. He
was ready, however, now to meet the
hon. and learned gentleman fairly on this
point; and he would tell him, that it
was part of the new arrangement that an
account of every grant out of this fund
should, as a matter of course, and with-
out address, be laid before the House in
every session, immediately after such
grant [Hear !]. So that the only distinc-
tion remaining between him and the hon.
and learned gentleman would be whether
the grant should be discussed in the
House in the first instance, and be con-
ferred in consequence of a parliamentary
vote; or whether it should first proceed
from the Crown, and then be submitted
to the cognizance of parliament. He
did not mean to say that this distinc-
tion was a trifling one, or one that did
not deserve the most serious examina-
tion. All he meant to say was, that
the ministers of the Crown were not pre-
pared to propose that a long and almost
immemorial usage should be abolished
without the most striking proof that such
usage, though co-existent with the prac-
tice, was incompatible with the spirit of
the constitution-He came now to ano-
ther part of the hon. and learned gentle-
man's speech-a part in which the hon.
and learned gentleman must himself ac-
knowledge, on mature reflection, he could

138] respecting the Droits ofthe Crown, Sc.

not have spoken his genuine sentiments
when he proposed the change which he
did propose in the revenues of the Crown.
The hon. and learned gentleman had ad-
mitted that there was no remarkable
abuse in the application of the funds in
question, and that many of the pensions
would have been readily granted by par-
liament. To lord St. Vincent, lord Nel-
son, the duke of Wellington, parliament
would have granted pensions without any
hesitation, according to the hon. and
learned gentleman; but it would not be
so with pensions for political services,
if submitted to parliamentary investi-
gation. The hon. and learned gentle-
man states truly (said Mr. Canning)
what he says of those on this side of
the House, and what I would say were
I where he sits, but I think it better that
the patronage of the Crown should re-
ward public services by property under
its peculiar protection, than that a demo-
cratic assembly should dole out largesses
and favours according to the impulse and
force of passion, party, or canvass. We
have had instances enough, in our own
memory, of what party canvass can do
[Cheers!]. Setting on the one side the
chances of favour, canvass, party, and in-
advertency-on the other, the chances of
extravagance-I do think the Crown the
better trustee. I complain, therefore, of
this part of the speech, because the hon.
and learned gentleman is too wellfread
in the principles and practices of popu-
lar assemblies to be ignorant of the
change that would take place to the pre-
judice of the people and of public men,
if he were taken at his word, and if this
task of giving pensions for political ser-
vices were abandoned by the Crown,
and should fall into the management of
this House: I complain that, for the sake
of a rhetorical flourish, he had used such
an argument, independently of the change
which must attend its success. If the
present state of the droits in consideration
is sanctioned by long usage, if it it not
stained by abuse-and in the long pe-
riod of sixty years the hon. and learned
gentleman has hit upon only one ques-
tionable case, and that case questionable
only in the view which he has taken
of it; and I confess that I am not suffi-
ciently acquainted with its circumstances
to go into details; but when that pen-
sion was given it was discussed, and this
House gave its opinion upon it:-if in
sixty years only one suspicious case can

be found, then, in addition to usage, there
is the recommendation of experience and
practice not to depart from the course
hitherto pursued.-I come now to the
more general argument, which I have
already alluded to; it is, that in aggra-
vation of funds being at the disposal of
the Crown without previous sanction from
parliament, that for obtaining those funds,
and for pecuniary purposes, the Crown is
likely to conduct the country to war wan-
tonly and lightly. I entreat of the hon.
and learned gentleman not to concede
any thing to the moral character of the
administration-I entreat of him not to
concede any thing to the character of the
existing sovereign-and, in a constitu-
tional view, nothing of this kind ought to
be conceded. The hon. and learned gen-
tleman spoke properly of Charles 2nd, for
a king once departed from life is fair sub-
ject of animadversion. But I ask, whe-
ther, on the average virtue of kings and
ministers, if you place four millions-
and that is beyond any case that can be
imagined-if you place four millions
against all the evil, the danger, and the
disgrace that must overwhelm them when
the proceeding, perhaps in twelve hours
after, becomes known to parliament-I
ask, whether in such a case, any adminis-
tration would rush into war I ask, whe-
ther, in times such as we live in, for the
sakeof any haul ofdroits of admiralty ;Itlo
not say the sovereign-Ido not say his mi-
nisters; but whether the vilest mind that
ever meddled with public affairs, or con-
templated public administration, could re-
commend a wanton and unjustifiable war ?
-So far as to the motive supplied by the
droitsforgoingto war. Against.this we can
set on the other side the salutary practice
of the Crown. During thelong period of
the last reign only 9,000,0001. have been
accumulated. If we were to enter into
the causes of war, we should find, not in
one, in two, in three, but in many-in all
cases, the arrangement which the hon.
and learned gentleman opposes, and of
which he wishes the contrary to be adopt-
ed, has tended to save the country from
war. If the droits were not committed to
the Crown through the proper courts of
law, but were submitted to parliamentary
control, the difficulties of amicable adju-
dication would be increased tenfold. The
desire to hold the balance equal-and,
if wrong was done on one side or the
other, to make amicable reparation-
would be counteracted by national heat,

MAY 5i, 1620. [3S4,

high and romantic honour, and other feel-
ings, which would naturally prevail in an
assembly like this. It would be impossible
to avoid war. For the very purpose, there-
fore,ofavoiding rash and unnecessary war,
it is necessary to exclude such questions
from the knowledge-thatis, from the offi-
cial knowledge-of parliament, till every
claim has been heard, and final adjudica-
tionmade. Ifany privatewrongshouldhave
been committed, if any inadvertent mea-
sure should have been adopted, not only
the difficulty, but the inconvenience of
retracing the first step, or of persevering
in the course once hastily taken, would
be increased by the change. If it were
necessary to come down at once to par-
liament, and state that so many ships had
been captured, and were at the control of
parliament, the question would arise, was
the capture just or unjust ? If it should
be judged unjust, the administration would
be condemned ; but what has this to do in
repairing the wrongs of a nation ? If it
were thought just, war must be entered
into, although policy might dissuade
strongly from war. No reason, then, can
be found in the usage, in any constitu-
tional defect, or in the application of the
droits for the change proposed. Every
reason and every argument, arising from
the first nucleus of their formation to the
expenditure of the last farthing, distinctly
shows that we should be wrong in chang-
ing the control of the droits in question.
In the hands of the Crown, then, they are
best placed, to be exercised as every pre-
rogative of the Crown ought to be-for
the benefit of the people for whom the
royal prerogatives exist.-The only other
argument for departing from usage on
this subject is, that the whole department
of the monarchy may be recast, and for
the sake of doing away with every vestige
of feudal monarchy. That we could erect
something new that would merit great
praise, 1 am not prepared to deny. The
new fabric might be clean and neat as the
American government, and intelligible as
the presidency of the United States. But
I am unwilling that every trace of anti-
quity should be done away in the British
constitution. Nothing is so easy as to
frame a system that will look neater on
paper-a system that, by stripping the
king of all exclusive and princely orna-
ments, would render the monarch and
his ministers, in dignity and form, what
they are in reality, but in a more suitable
and efficient character-the mere func-

Mr. Brougham's Motion [136
tionaries of the people. There is but one
step further to complete the improvement,
it is, as the king is paid a fixed and cal-
culated salary, so that ministers be re-
moved in form as they are in substance,
as well as new ministers appointed by this
House. The monarch would then be se-
parated from all the darkness of ancient
times; but I do not think that the ad-
mirers of Paine's plans would be satisfied
with all this. I admit that the hon. and
learned gentleman would be satisfied with
seeing the monarch thus stripped naked,
but they would say that his salary was
still too large. Mr. Canning said, he
did not think that they would be sa-
tisfied without removing all the lines
of circumvallation, which, thank God,
the arm of a traitor must pierce be-
fore the constitution of this country would
remove. The ion. and learned gentleman
had amused the House by reading on the
7th head of the civil list many ludicrous
charges. Much as he admired the talents
of the hon. and learned gentleman he
thought they were here misapplied, for he
answered all the observations of this sort
when he admitted, at the conclusion of
his speech, that he had not made up his
mind whether the insulated king should
have the control of his own household;
whether the various items of charge in
that department should be audited by a
committee of this House, or by the king
himself. If the household were not given
up to his majesty's management, the civil
list could be quoted and exposed to much
greater ridicule than the hon. and learned
gentleman had thrown upon the part he
liad selected. Unless the monarch should
be put on board-wages, and should dine
in a chop-house, they must come to the
monstrous conclusion, that there would
be more dishes on his table than he abso-
lutely required. If the king lived in this
guilty state, and his expenses were audited
by parliament, there would be more ludi-
crous charges than those for the worthy
vicar of the Tower, and the not less wor-
thy keeper of the lions of the Tower.
Here the right hon. gentleman read ra-
pidlyfrom the civil list, Oilery, grocery,
lemons, fruits, and oranges, milk and
cream, butter, cheese, and eggs, bacon,
butcher-meat, poultry, fish, and vegeta-
bles, stationer, china, and brazier, cider,
and brandy, beer, bread, and wine"-all
those were detailed in that account, and
must form part of the household charges.
On the subject of the household the

137] respecting the Droits of the Cro'
hon. and learned gentleman ought to
have made up his mind before he had
brought forward this question; for it was
as easy to do so on that subject as on
the other points on which his motion
was founded. When he had entered
that House he had expected something
more practicable from the hon. and
learned gentleman than a proposal to
strip the Crown, at one sweep of a right
that had adorned it since the Revolu-
tion; to divest the king of his peculiar
power and privileges; to make the civil-
list less involved by making it entirely
new. His proposal was as impracticable
in its nature as it was undesirable in its
effects. At every former period the civil-
list was more obscure and complicated
than the civil-list now proposed. Consi-
dering, then, the greater complication
of former times, and the greater intelli-
gence of the present time, he did think,
although they had not arrived at the
summum bonum of the hon. and learned
gentleman that they had made considera-
ble progress from obscurity and confusion
for every former report had been less in-
telligible than that of 1816. He did not
think that by laying an estimate before the
House of every item, they would give
greater satisfaction to the country, or
that they would allay the discontent of
those who were now dissatisfied by put.
ting forth the precise charges more dis-
tinctly. It was not necessary, for the
purpose of satisfying the people of this
country, to separate the Crown from its
concomitants. Whatever illusion (or, if
they would, delusion) there might be in
such an opinion, he was not for stripping
off from the monarchy every thing which
rendered it respectable in the eyes of the
country. He objected to the motion of
the hon. and learned gentleman, .because
it was ill-timed and undeserved. ff any
new demands had been made, if any pro-
posal had been presented that might
lead to new burthens on the country,
he could understand why, in the ardour
of repelling such a sally, gentlemen
should be carried, as it were, into the
work itself. But when nothing was de-
manded; when the sovereign he would
not say consented-declared that he
would receive with gratitude and satisfac.
tion the civil-list that had been acquiesced
in for four years; when this declaration
was made, when the sovereign expressed
himself satisfied, and declared that he
would have no reduction made upon any

MAY 5, 1820.


sums falling in to the country, what was
the return ? Aye, but you have other
funds, and we wish to have them taken
from you; we wish you to be a king after
anew fashion; we require your allowances
to be limited to your physical wants;
we desire you to rival the president
of America [Cheers]. Oh, incompar-
able temptation! But he would not
be induced by this temptation to strip
off trappings which were neither costly
to the people, nor dangerous to the con-
stitution. Technically speaking, he ad-
mitted that this was a new reign. On
other occasions there had been a sameness
ofoffice, with a change of persons; on
the present occasion there was sameness
of person with a change of office. The
change was not so total as when one for-
merly a subject became the sovereign;
for it was only the investing with original
sovereignty one who had exercised it in a
vicarious character. It would be easy to
show that the difference of claim ought in
this ccse to be the other way. They (the
ministers) adhered to the pledge given,
and nothing was asked; but nothing could
be more natural than that he who became
king from being regent should consider
himself entitled to some augmentation.
But no augmentation was asked. And here
he would state that the idea of any aug-
mentation of the civil list was never con-
templated for a passing quarter of an hour
and never for one moment intended. This
he thought it necessary to state dis-
tinctly, because a report of a different
kind had gone abroad. He hoped that the
House would take the opportunity of
availing themselves of the confidence ex-
pressed by the sovereign-that they would
not reject his demands-that they would
not seek to strip him of his rights-that
they would not stoop to consider whether
they could save by his promotion. He
certainly did not mean to treat with any
disrespect the motion of the lion. and
learned gentleman, and disclaiming any
such motive, he should conclude with
moving, that the other order of the day
be now read.
Mr. Brougham explained, that the right
hon. gentleman must have misapprehended
him, or, in common policy, he would not
have so far misrepresented what he had
said. He had not supposed that the
droits occasioned war. No king nor
House of Commons would ever be so
mad as to go to war for the sake of droits
of the Admiralty. What he had said, and

what the right hon. gentleman had left
untouched, was, that the droits were a
temptation to go to war without procla-
mation. As to all that the right hon.
gentleman had said of the monarch's phy-
sical wants, it was inapplicable. He was
for giving the monarch all that they were
for giving, but in a separate and definite
Mr. Canning admitted that the expla-
nation made the argument quite different;
but the reference to the Smyrna fleet ap-
peared to him to go a little further.
Sir James Mackintosh said, that if he
chose his station in debate otherwise than
from a sense of duty, most assuredly he
should not have taken the station which
brought him so nearly into contact with
the great and powerful speech of the
statesman and lawyer who introduced the
subject, nor that which called upon him
to reply to the eloquence and talents of
his right hon. friend who had just sat
down. Considering the speech of his
hon. and learned friend as consisting
wholly of reason and knowledge, and en-
tirely free from objections usually made in
that House-considering that it discussed
exclusively a great and grave question of
state policy, without turning it at all into
a means of acquiring popularity or an in-
strument of inflammation, he could not
regard the observations which he was now
to attempt to answer but as ingenious
fallacies. One of the topics urged by his
right hon. friend-he could not call it ar-
gument, although it was a topic often
used with effect, and its general effect he
did not wish to lessen-was the reverence
for feudal monarchy and gothic govern-
ment, the charge of stripping the Crown of
its trappings, and the monarch of his dig-
nity. This topic was inapplicable altoge-
theron the present occasion; for the speech
of his hon. and learned friend expressed as
strong a regard for the law, for the consti-
tution, for the honour and dignity of the
Crown, as any speech that had'ever been
uttered in that House. His right hon.
friend ought to view feudal monarchy as
connected with all its evils, with the baneful
and oppressive evils which were gradually
removed during four centuries from
Magna Charta to the statute of Wards and
Liveries. This was the olden time so
warmly eulogized This was an attempt at
celebrating the golden age of old times,
which he thought more suitable to a vene-
rable major out of doors, than to his right
hon. friend [a laugh and cheers]. The bold

Mr. Brougham's Motion


and presumptuous renovators, the barons
at Runnymede, had not such veneration
for the olden times and the feudal monar-
chy. The feudal monarchy was conti-
nually attacked and stripped of some of
its appendages, from William the Con-
queror down to William 3rd. The Bill of
Rights, and all the proud charters of our
best rights, were so many attacks and
encroachments on the feudal monarchy
and the practices of the olden times. His
hon. and learned friend had stated that
since Charles 2nd the droits had not in-
volved us in war. This he had ascribed
not to morality, but to policy. He had
distinctly applied his objection, not to the
droits causing war, because they could
not reach that; but to their influence in
occasioning actual hostilities before a de--
claration of war. The point of objection
was the manner of going to war. If even
this abuse had never existed, he should
still contend that it was a sufficient objec-
tion that there was a peculiar liability to
this abuse. Nay, it was a sufficient ob-
jection that we were suspected and charged
with this abuse in foreign countries. This
suspicion excited much additional jealousy
of what we could not surrender without
danger-he meant our important maritime
rights. It was prudence, it was wisdom,
to reform what rendered us odious without
making us formidable, and at a time when
the reform could not be imputed to fear
or force. This reform we owed, first, to
a sense of justice and moderation, and
next, to a sacred regard to our own con-
duct and reputation, which we were bound
to maintain. For illustration of this point
he would take the liberty of stating the
conduct of another nation. In 1812, when
we engaged in war with America, the
American government allowed six months
for all ships to leave their ports after the
war commenced. A representation was
made of the hardships of not having longer
time: longer time was granted. In one
of the courts oflaw in Massachusetts the
question was tried, whether the govern-
ment had a right to grant such time, or
whether, according to common law, which
was the same in America as in England,
the ships had not become droits of the
common-wealth there, as of the Crown in
England. The courts found that the
order of government was conformable to
the law of nations, and the ships were en-
larged. It was remarkable, that the
courts held not only that the enlarge-
ment was conformable to the law of na-

141] respecting the Droits of the Crown, 4'c.

tions, but also to Magna Charta. When
the minister of the American government,
at the congress of Ghent, asked for simi-
lar indulgence for his countrymen, he did
not meet with reciprocal liberality. The
answer given to him was indeed the only
answer which could be given to him under
existing circumstances; for it informed
him, that restitution of the property seized
could not be made, as it was not the pro-
perty of the captors, but the property of
the Crown. After such a fact, he would
ask them, in the first place, whether it
was not natural for foreign courts to sus-
pect that wars were sometimes made by
our court with no other view than to
support this fund ? and, in the second,
whether the House, if it consented to the
measures now proposed by his majesty's
ministers, would not be creating another
obstacle to the destruction of it ? The
American government had certainly a
right to expect that the English govern-
ment would adhere to Magna Charta,
and Magna Charta expressly declared,
that no foreign merchant should suffer,
either in his person or in his chattels,
upon a declaration of war, though he
might be compelled to wait in England
until it was ascertained how Englishmen
were treated in the other country. This
was, however, the law in the golden times
of old, but not at the time of the seizure
of the Smyrna fleet. His right hon. friend,
however, was so sensibly alive to the high
character of his late majesty, that he had
charged the learned gentleman who had
brought forward this motion, with the
commission of an inexpiable offence in
speaking of the Smyrna fleet and his late
majesty in the same breath; forgetting,
however, that his learned friend had
expressly stated that he did not mean to
accuse any king who had reigned in Eng-
land since Charles 2nd, of a similar act of
folly and injustice. But his right hon.
friend, in reply to the eloquent mover of
the debate, had gone so far as to assert,
that the fund in question was not so much
calculated to prove an incitement to war,
as a preventive of it; and had backed his
assertion by alluding to the case of the
Swedish convoy, in which, as lie said,
restitution was made to the captured from
the droits of Admiralty. He (sir J.
Mackintosh) had been employed as coun-
sel in that case, and might therefore be
supposed to have some acquaintance with
it; and yet it appeared to him to be to-
tally irrelevant. The right hon. gentle.

man had alluded to it, under the idea that
there were no other funds in existence
from which restitution could be made;
and if such had really been the case, his
argument would indeed have been unan-
swerable. But that was by no means the
fact; it was nothing more than mere sup-
position; and yet upon that as a founda-
tion, the eloquent speech of his right hon.
friend entirely rested. He could not in-
deed hope to rival the eloquence of that
speech, but he would not despair of con-
quering it in argument. He should there-
fore assert, that there were other funds
from which redress in case ofinjury might
be obtained, and that the mode of ar-
ranging them was so clear, that if it were
referred to a committee for half an hour,
they would understand its purport and
perceive its utility. Indeed he had at
that time in his hand a bill for that pur-
pose, which he had prepared four years
ago, whilst the subject was then under
discussion; he had not submitted it to the
notice of parliament at that period, for
certain reasons which it was unnecessary
for him then to explain-the reasons
might be good or they might be bad-he
had, however, acted upon them; and if
he had been mistaken in doing so, he had
been misled by the ministry of the day,
who declared, that though the civil list, as
then constituted, was founded upon an
express bargain made between his majes-
ty and the country, and therefore could
not be disturbed, a time would come
when the whole subject would be open to
free discussion and examination, and that
then would be the period for introducing
any such measure as he had contemplated
[Hear!]. But now that the time for in-
troducing some such measure was at last
arrived, his right hon. friend came forward
and informed them, that to enter into
any such examination would be, to make
a very bad return to the gracious declara-
tions of his majesty king George 4th.
His right hon. friend had told them, that
his majesty had no wish to add to the
burthens of the country, that he was most
anxious to alleviate the distresses of the
people, and that he had displayed all the
sources of his revenue to his parliament;
and that it was, therefore, the duty of
parliament to behave as generously to-
wards him as he had behaved graciously
towards them. What was the real an-
swer, then, which parliament ought to
make to this appeal? Why, that in com-
pliance with Ins majesty's desire they

MAY 5, 1820. [142

would take into their most serious consi-
deration, how far they could relieve the
people from their burdens without de-
tracting from the honour and dignity of
the Crown. After he had arrived at this
point, his right hon. friend had shown very
great eagerness to transfer the discussion
to the civil list; but into the discussion
of that question it would be highly im-
proper to enter, without first entering
into the investigation which his hon. and
learned friend had that evening proposed
to them to pursue. In the reasons which
his right hon. friend had adduced for re-
fusing an inquiry into the droits of Ad-
miralty, there was one great and surpris-
ing fallacy : it was this, that he had spread
them over the sixty years of the late reign,
whereas, eight millions of them and more
had been accumulated during the war
which had raged during the last twenty
years; the other 750,0001., which was
placed at the disposal of parliament at the
peace of 1763, proceeding from the cap-
ture of the French ships which were taken
at the commencement of the war in 1756.
Hence it appeared, that in the thirty years
intervening between the years 1763 and
1793, the droits of Admiralty amount-
ed to a very inconsiderable sum, whilst in
the twenty years that afterwards ensued
they increased to such an amount, as to
give his majesty a clear income of more
than 400,0001. a year, not voted by par-
liament, not recognized by parliament, or
not recognizable by parliament, but to be
recognized and made recognizable by it
at some future period. If such a cir-
cumstance could have been foreseen in the
first year of the reign of George 3rd,
when the civil list' was under discussion,
and the sum of 800,0001. was proposed to
be given to him as an annual revenue,
would it have been looked upon as an in-
different circumstance? Certainly not: on
the contrary, it would have formed so im-
portant a consideration, that it would have
been impossible to have overlooked it. It
would have occurred to the parliament
then sitting, that a revenue arising from
such a source was a fluctuating revenue;
and that, as it was a fluctuating revenue,
it would be impossible to decide what was
the amount of an income, partly derived
from such a source, and partly derived
from a parliamentary grant. This sug.
gestion occurred to him forcibly at pre-
sent; and he therefore looked upon the
motion now proposed to them as a preli-
minary measure, which they were bound

Mr. Brougham's Motion


to discuss before they determine on ..-
signing any fixed revenue to the Crown.-
Another question, in his opinion, was,
whether the revenue derived from these
sources was proper and decorous ? and
upon this point he was happy to say, that
his right hon. friend had admitted, that on
which he (sir J. Mackintosh) contended the
whole ofthecasetorest. He had admitted
that the island of Barbadoes had peti-
tioned against the assignment of its colo-
nial funds to British purposes; he had
admitted that the constitution of that co-
lony gave them power to apply those
funds to their own purposes, and therefore
that any other application of them was
absolutely unjust. He had therefore ad-
mitted all that was requisite to show the
impropriety of attaching this revenue to
the Crown, though, indeed, his admission
of it was not wanted. It was sufficient
for his (sir J. Mackintosh) argument,
that in the reign of queen Anne, both the
queen and the parliament had acknow-
ledged their error in the application
which had been made of them; the fact
that they had afterwards continued to be
applied to the same purposes was nothing
to him; lie was well aware that the appli.
cation of them could not be set aside in a
court of law-but that was not the ques-
tion at present. The question was, whe-
ther parliament would still continue to
allow the funds belonging to the inhabi-
tants of Barbadoes, who had no person to
represent their interests in the House of
Commons to be misapplied in the manner
which they had been ? In the considera-
tion of this question his right hon. friend
seemed totally to have forgotten that they
then were not debating whether a smaller
or a larger sum should be granted to the
king, but whether the interest of the state
and the honour of the Crown, would be best
consulted by the continuance or the'discon.
tinuance of these sources of revenue. To
this question not one of his remarks was
applicable. It was true that a great
part of the droits of the admiralty had
been made over, voluntarily made over
by the king to the public service, and
that another great part had also been
applied to the recompensing the me-
ritorious, but irregular captors. He con-
ceded that the rewards paid out of this
fund had been, for the most part, judici-
ously bestowed; but he would ask, whe-
ther suspicions had not arisen in conse-
quence of some officers of great merit
having been overlooked, that these grants

145] respecting the Droits of the Crown, 4c.

were conferred, not so much as marks of
merit but as marks of favour? To abo-
lish, therefore, this method of reward, by
abolishing the fund, from which the re-
ward was taken, would also tend to abo-
lish the idea of abuse which had arisen
out of it. But then these droits of
admiralty were defended as a privilege, a
valuable and honourable privilege, of the
sovereign. What! were they to hear
the power by which the Spanish frigates
were captured denominated a valuable
jewel in the Crown ? were they to con-
sider the proceeds arising from the sale of
them honourable to the Crown ? were
those proceeds to be deemed a fit source
from which a parent was to bestow his
bounty on his children? or were they to
be accounted as proceeds equally dis-
graceful to the giver and receiver? For
his own part, he considered them in the
latter point of view-for a revenue was
well-derived which was derived from
the benevolence of the people: but
ill derived which was derived from such
an act as the seizure of the Spanish
fleet-an act which had been compared
as equal in atrocity to some of the worst
examples of Turkish piracy. It would
therefore be more honourable for the
sovereign to derive his means of gratify-
ing his paternal affection from the affec-
tion of his subjects than from the spoils
of his enemies-his unarmed, his unof-
fending, and his defenceless enemies.
But it was said that, if a compensation
were to be afforded to the sovereign, it
must be a liberal compensation. To
this proposition, he, for one, had no ob-
jection; and he would so arrange that
compensation as to take care that it
was not productive to the sovereign of
any extra-parliamentatary revenue. In-
deed, he should consider the House dead
to all sense of shame if they were not
most eager, on many accounts, to grant
such a compensation to their sovereign.
In the first place they would by such a
compensation abridge the means of cor-
ruption; in the second, 'they would pre-
vent the Crown from being held up to
public view, as deriving benefit from the
exercise of the harshest laws of war-
rights which, though they might be pro-
perly exercised in those times of feudality
which his right hon. friend had chosen as
the subject of his panegyric, were now
generally considered as cruel and inhu-
man, and, in the third place, they would
protect the maritime rights of the coun-

try, which in future times were likely to
become more difficult to protect than they
were at present. Of these rights, though
he would maintain some as intimately
connected with the honour and safety
of the country, he would give up others
because they rendered us odious without
rendering us formidable. With regard to
prizes taken at sea, he held opinions not
very different from the bulk of the coun-
try. Those opinions he held to be
founded upon the law of nations; and he
would have them maintained at every ha-
zard, because they were connected with
the national honour, which it was requi-
site to preserve untarnished, if the nation
did not wish to sink into the condition of
a secondary state. It was, however,
these very opinions that rendered Eng-
land unpopular amongst foreign nations;
they were blended with our commercial
wealth, and arose from the very causes
which had cramped the pretensions of fo-
reign powers; they were interwoven
with our earliest history, and had existed
from the treaty of Oleron, in the reign of
Richard 1st, down to the present times.
From a combination of causes like these,
from the exertion of these harsh and dis-
gusting rights, we had acquired the title
of tyrants of the sea." On the subject
of prizes in general, he did not know that
there was any subject on which his first
thoughts had differed so much from his
second. He had observed that on land
private property was safe, but that at sea
it was not safe. He thought this extraor-
dinary at first, but he was now convinced
that it was perfectly right, because ships
were adapted for purposes of invasion.
The droits of Admiralty had been de-
fended on another ground-that theywere
applied to the relief of British subjects
who suffered by seizure of their goods in
a foreign country on a declaration of war.
This had been the case, after the seizure
of the Spanish frigates ; part of their pro-
ceeds had been applied to the relief of the
British subjects whose goods had been
confiscated at Cadiz. But in the case of
those British merchants whose property
was seized in Denmark, after the attack
on Copenhagen no such redress was af-
forded, though the Danish droits of ad-
miralty amounted to 2,000,0001. and
though the British property confiscated
did not exceed a tenth part of that sum
in value. The merchants had presented
petitions, but in vain; they were told
by a noble lord that though such relief

MAY 5, 1820. [146

had been afforded in the case of Ca-
diz, that was a dangerous precedent, and
could not be followed: so that the very
point was negatived on which the ad-
vocates for the droits of admiralty con-
tended for their continuance. And yet,
if there ever was a case where relief ought
to have been granted, it was to the Bri-
tish merchants who lost their property in
Denmark. The government of England
had lulled them into security; till the
very sailing of the British expedition
Danish clearances were made in our
ports. He did not blame government for
this, because secrecy might form a part of
the policy of the expedition; but he did
blame them for this-that when no Bri-
tish subject could have expected such
measures to have been pursued, from the
security into which they wtre lulled, the
droits of admiralty had not been granted;
and that refusal destroyed the argument
which was founded on the application of
them as an indemnity for confiscation.
He was ashamed of having troubled the
House so long ; but he had risen to make
a few observations in reply to his right
hon friend, and the subject had carried
him further than he originally intended.
Mr. Marryat rose to state some facts
which had come under his own knowledge
respecting the droits of the Crown in
conquered colonies. In Trinidad, the
owners of land had been required to take
out new grants for their lands, with bur-
thens attached to which they had never
before been subject. He saw by the Tri-
nidad gazette that 4,800 acres of land
were offered to sale on the part of the
Crown, being confiscated under the new
regulation. These confiscations had taken
place in the only two parishes which had
yet been surveyed for the purposes of the
.new regulation, out of the 32 parishes in
the island. If the others yielded confis-
cations in the same proportion, there
would be 155,000 acres in the whole
island. What this land would sell for it
was not easy to ascertain; if' for 41. an
acre, the amount received by the Crown
would would be nearly 700,0001. from
that single island. As he could not con-
sent that the Crown should be left in pos-
session of a revenue thus uncertain in
amount, and thus unjustly derived from
the fruits of triumphs effected by national
expenditure, he should vote for the mo-
Mr. T inn said, it was his intention to
detain the House only for a few moments.

Mr. Brougham's Motion [148
His object was, to explain an allusion
which had been made by the hon. and
learned gentleman who opened the debate
to a pension said to be enjoyed by the
lady of a noble friend of his. The fact
was, that noble lord had the pension on
his retiring from his majesty's service,
and subsequently it was granted for life
to his nearest and dearest relative; but
since then circumstances had occurred
from which it had been given up. He
was certainly of opinion that an account
should be rendered to parliament from
time to time of those sources of revenue
to which the motion referred; for he held
that they were not intended for occasions
of private gratification, or for the privy
purse of the king, but for the advantage
and benefit of the people. Now he con-
ceived that this end would be completely
answered by the plan of the right lion.
gentleman. For if the amount of those
sources, or their application, were annu-
ally submitted to the House, it would be
seen whether any improper payment had
been made from them, and in that case
ministers would be strictly accountable
for any misapplication. This, he con-
tended, would be a better and more econo-
mical arrangement than any compensation
which could be made. He saw no ground
whatever for making a compensation: for
in that case the compensation, whatever
it was, would go to the privy purse, over
which parliament had no control; but in
the other case, if a large surplus should
remain from those droits at particular pe-
riods, they would be carried to the ac-
count of the country. And this led him
to what had been said with respect to co-
lonial revenues. It wouldbe in the power
of parliament to see the application, if
those taxes were increased, or if a large
surplus remained; but he could not see
how any surplus could remain; for it
should go to the support of the service of
the colony itself, the raising of troops, &c.
Considering the subject on these grounds,
he thought that the same end would be
answered by the plan proposed on the
other side, and he should therefore vote
against the resolution.
Sir J. Newport said, that as he con-
sidered that the power which the present
system would give to the Crown was
open to great abuse, lie should vote for
the resolutions. With respect to the
revenue of four-and-half per cent, it was
said that it was intended for the service
of the colonies, the erection of fortifica-

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