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Interview with Audrey Clark, March 12, 2002

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Title:
Interview with Audrey Clark, March 12, 2002
Creator:
Clark, Audrey ( Interviewee )
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English

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Subjects / Keywords:
University of Florida College of Nursing Oral History Collection ( local )
University of Florida -- History

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This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

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Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
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This interview is part of the 'University of Florida College of Nursing' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
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Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/.
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UFCN 10

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UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA

ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

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Summary

Interviewee: Audrey Clark
Interviewer: Ann Smith
March 12, 2002

Pages 1- 3 Clark was born June 20, 1922, was raised, and attended highschool in Brooklyn,
New York. She attended Wellesley College in Wellesley, Massachusetts and graduated with a
degree in American history in 1944. She had heard a speech about the needs of Appalachia that
influenced her thinking about wanting to go into health care.
In 1953, she and her family of three children, came to Gainesville, Florida, where her
husband set up a medical practice. In 1957, at age thirty-five, she entered the College of
Nursing. Working and going to school, part-time, she graduated with her BSN in 1962. She
recalled a lot of wasted time of students and staff moving patients from room to room to
maintain the segregated four-bed wards of the hospitals. She remembers her distress at the
terminally ill children in her pediatrics rotation but found her psychiatric nursing, fascinating.
Since her husband was in OB/GYN, she thinks she was influenced by his field.

Pages 4 8 After graduation, she worked on a medical floor that allowed her flexible hours to be
able to meet her children after school. She went on to obtain her masters degree in 1966 with a
specialty in obstetrics. Shortly thereafter, she accepted an offer for a faculty position teaching
obstetrics.
Clark recalls being shocked at Dorothy Smith leaving the deanship and mentions the
subsequent deans and their contributions to the college. She perceives that the administration of
education and service in the OB/GYN nursing department, did not work.

Pages 9 13 She became an advocate for natural childbirth and including fathers in the delivery
rooms. This was also the time when epidural anesthesia was introduced.
She discussed the time when interviews were used as part of the admission criteria for
students and the impact junior college/community college nursing programs had on the
educational structure.
She identified Faye Harris as the first black faculty member at the College of Nursing.
She remembered the loyalty pledge all faculty members had to sign as state employees that was
an outgrowth of the Johns Committee actions.

Pages 14 16 Clark said there was too much emphasis on nursing histories in the last years of
Dorothy Smith's deanship. She believes she learned most from Lois Malalsanos.



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Interviewee: Audrey Clark
Interviewer: Ann Smith
Date: March 12, 2003


S: Today is March 12th, 2003. My name is Ann Smith and I am interviewing Audrey
Clark in her home in Gainesville, Florida. Audrey, where were you born?

C: Brooklyn, New York.

S: And do you mind my asking, what year?

C: No. June 20, 1922.

S: Where were you raised?

C: In Brooklyn, New York.

S: Is that where you went through high school?

C: I went through high school and went away every summer up to camp in
Burlington, Vermont, for two months. Then, I went to college. I graduated from
high school in 1940 and graduated from college in 1944.

S: Where did you go to college?

C: Wellesley College in Wellesley, Massachusetts.

S: Did you get a degree?

C: I majored in American History. My father was a surgeon in Brooklyn and my
mother was a nurse. I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. In my junior or
sophomore year at Wellesley, someone (I have forgotten his name) came to talk
about the problems of Appalachia: how they needed more help, and what the
nurses were doing. I thought that sounded pretty cool, so I wrote to Yale. At
that time, Yale had a masters program. If you graduated with a bachelors
degree, than you could come to Yale and get a masters in nursing. I thought it
sounded pretty good. But, the requirements were a bit difficult. You had to have
general chemistry and organic chemistry; you had to have physics and
something else. Here I was with an American history major. I guess I had
botany my freshman year. So, I talked to my father about this. He looked at the
program for the Yale degree and said, Why don't you go to medical school? I
said, You have always said that it is not a life for women. Well, he said, I don't
know. Go ahead. I took inorganic chemistry. Then, I came back to Wellesley
and took organic chemistry. I also had to go back to Barnard the next summer









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for qualitative chemistry. Organic chemistry was just pure memorization.
Barnard classes did not finish before Wellesley's classes started.

I applied to what is now, Downstate Medical School of New York University. My
father was head of the surgical division of Methodist Hospital, which was in
Brooklyn, and got quite a few of their residents.

S: [Clark came to Gainesville with her physician husband and three children in 1953
and later, applied to the College of Nursing Program.] What test did you have to
take as a prerequisite? The GRE [Graduate Record Exam] or something?

C: I am sure it was not as difficult as that. It was just sort of like SAT, more than
anything. But, I am very poor in math; I always have been. But, I got into the
College of Nursing. I was thirty-five years old and acted as if women, thirty-five
years old with five children, applied every day. I still think my admission was
influenced by my husband Carl who was a pretty well known physician in
Gainesville. I had thought the reason I got into medical school was helped
because I had graduated from Wellesley College. So, they had said, Yes, come
in. At this time, there were core courses.

S: What year was this?

C: I graduated, with the BSN, I think, in 1962 or 1963. First, I worked on the fourth
floor for a while.

S: Did you work, part time?

C: No, I did part time, going through the College of Nursing. Remember, we never
had chemistry and stuff like that, as requirements. But 1962, it took me a few
years to get through, going part-time. I had Carol Hayes, as an instructor, and
Jane Kordana for Medical Surgical Nursing. Jane Kordana had us cleaning
bedrails, and things like that. What Dorothy had done was to pick up the
hospital nursing program and plunk it down into a so-called, academic program.
I had not known either one, so it didn't make any difference to me.

S: You didn't have a basis for comparison, did you?

C: No. The thing that got to me was that this was a segregated hospital. We spent
a lot of time moving people, beds, and bedside stands. We had a lot of four-bed
wards. If you put in one black, male patient, then you couldn't put a woman there
and you couldn't put a white man in. The other thing that baffled me was that
Dorothy was trying her best to get a conversation going with FAMU. [Florida
Agricultural and Mechanical University]. So, the black head of the nursing
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program came over but she could not eat in the cafeteria. They had to have
sandwiches in Dorothy's office. It was just ridiculous. But that is the way it was.
Remember? Downstairs--I guess it was the basement and at the very end of the
hallway was the luncheon room for the black staff. That is where they could eat.


S: They later, turned it into a grill.

C: Well, the grill wasn't bad. In the cafeteria were all black people, serving us food,
but the Dean of Nursing at FAMU could not eat there.

S: At this time, were you working on your baccalaureate degree?

C: I was. And I had Jane Kordana and I had Barbara Buchanan (I thought she was
fantastic), Bobbie Dykes [head of Psychiatric Nursing] and Polly Barton [head of
Pediatrics]. I think they were all good people but I don't think anyone ever really
would challenge Dorothy as to what was going on. What Dorothy was trying to
do, was to get away from this "training." I think that was fantastic. She would
say, You train monkeys; you educate people. I enjoyed most of it.

S: When you look back on your baccalaureate education, do you have positive
memories?

C: Pretty much. I got a "D" in Pediatric Nursing. I was not pleased. I was not
pleased with that, at all. I didn't like pediatric nursing because those children
were dying or were terribly sick. I met Dorothy in Publix, some time after. I had
Mrs. __ as my instructor; she was Asian. She didn't stay. I have forgotten her
name. Dorothy said, I hear you and So-and-So had a little disagreement or
personality clash. I said, Is that what my "D" is? A personality clash? I didn't like
pediatrics. I liked psych. I thought psych was interesting. They had a woman up
there who was blind, but she wasn't really blind.

S: Do you mean hysterical blindness?

C: Yes. One of the male patients who had depression, whom I got to know up on
the eighth floor, went home and killed himself. I thought that was really dreadful.
I don't know why I didn't go into psych. I thought it was very interesting. I liked
psych. Med-Surg with Jane Kordana was funny. But, I liked OB/GYN. I think
being married to my husband, I had heard a lot about it. Our graduation was a
small one. It wasn't at the big hall. I went to work on the medical floor in
Shands. There, they would let me off at one or two o'clock in the afternoon so I
could get Peter and Scott [her twin sons] out of P. K. Yonge. I graduated with my
masters in 1966. Was that an eighteen month program, then?
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S: Is your degree a masters or a master of science? Is it an MSN or an MN?

C: I will have to go back and look.

S: So, it is an MN. So, it might have only been a twelve-month program. Although,
from year to year some of those things changed.

C: So, I went into OB/GYN after my masters degree since that is what I majored in.

S: Then, what did you do?

C: I worked on OB. I remember I did just a week of nights and decided that I would
never be able to do that, again, in my life. Third floor at that time was combined
OB and GYN. I was the only RN on the whole floor. I had aides. The IV's would
run out or they would be at the end of the hall. The attendants would be on the
couch, asleep. These women were working two jobs. It is amazing. They did
what they could do. I remember one of the residents was going to write me up
because so many IV's had run out. They told him he couldn't do that. One of the
other residents would come around at midnight and get his patients up to walk
after the patients had hysterectomies. There was one, huge woman that we had,
and the resident said, Now, Mrs. Herbert and I will walk you to the door but if you
fall down, it is going to be too bad because we can't pick you up. So, she walked
and she probably didn't have any problems of clots in her blood, either. But, he
was quite sure that he wanted to get everyone up and walking. Then, I guess a
position came up on the faculty. I was undergoing a divorce, then and Jen
Wilson asked the dean if that made any difference. And Dorothy said no.

S: Was the transition, from staff nurse to teaching role, difficult for you?

C: I don't think so.

S: Did you just take to it, right away? Did you enjoy the students?

C: I enjoyed the students. I preferred labor and delivery. And I liked pre-natal clinic.
The medical side, the medical, OB/GYN people, were delightful. As I said, the
fact that I was older and married to Dr. Herbert, probably made a difference.
When I go back now, most of the time, I go to labor and delivery. And I will go
over to third floor. Sometimes, I will go down and see the faculty and sometimes,
I won't, because Jen is not there, anymore. Betty is not there. I go to see Joan
Castleman [Clinical Assistant Professor, 1992-present]. I think I was more
interested in the students getting more clinical time and less writing and testing.

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S: When you were a student, were you aware that Dorothy was on the cutting edge
of things?

C: Oh, they told us that she was, yes. But, you see, I had never seen anything else.
I had no problem with that. I think she retired, too soon. I think the doctors were
amazed that she would give up, basically.

S: What do you remember of that time?

C: I was shocked that she was going to do it because I thought the only alternative
was Lois Knowles, who I had in Geriatric Nursing. Lois seemed to be, almost
paranoid. At that point, I think, Lois sort of blamed doctors for what was going
on. I don't think Blanche Urey. [Second Dean of the College of Nursing,
University of Florida, 1973-1978] was very good. Why don't I think she was very
good? We probably didn't make any progress toward the ideal of what Dorothy
was looking at. Do you know why Dorothy quit?

S: In the many interviews I have done of different faculty, there are so many
different perspectives. There are people who, I thought were very close to her,
knew her personally, and socialized with her, who said, I don't have any idea
what happened.

C: Carol Hayes.

S: Yes. Others said, they thought she was having so much difficulty with the other
colleges in the Health Center and had budget cuts, that she felt she could not
fight any more. Her letter said she wished to resign the deanship and continue to
teach as a member of the faculty. Then, that didn't happen and I am still unclear
as to why it didn't.

C: Can you imagine that college functioning with her, merely on the faculty? I can't
see it.

S: As you said, she was such a dominant presence, and then, to have nothing to fill
that void while we scrambled for a search committee, I wonder if anyone, no
matter what their qualifications, could have been successful in following her. Do
you recall how many problems Blanche Urey had?

C: I think Lois Malasanos [Dean of the College of Nursing, 1980-1994]
accomplished more than Blanche. I was on the search committee for this last
deanship. I still wonder why Dorothy did not stay on the faculty.

S: I can't imagine what was going on with her. How that must have felt to her
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considering all she invested into the college? I wonder if she felt cut off at the
knees.

C: Were you in Psych or Med-Surg?

S: Med-Surg.

C: Did you chair your group?

S: Oh, no. For the majority of the time, Dottie Luther was the chairman. When I
first began, Jane Kordana was chairman of medical surgical nursing department.
Then, for a brief period of time, Sue Thomas-Hagavari was chairman. Then, I
believe they combined the fundamentals department with the medical-surgical
department and Dottie was chairman.

C: Do you remember the time when Jen Wilson was supposed to be the main nurse
in charge of the third floor, which was NICU [Neonatal Intensive Care Unit], the
nursery, OB and GYN, all on one floor? Then, she was also academically in
charge of the program.

S: Yes, she was in charge of the section of OB/GYN nursing department.

C: So, when doctors would think that there were not enough nurses on third floor,
they would call Jen. Well, what could she do? It was sort of a win-lose.

S: When Dorothy came to the Health Center, it was my understanding that one of
her ardent wishes was that nursing service and education were under one
leadership. So, almost continually, the section chairmen, like Polly Barton, were
in charge of the clinical unit as well as the academic program.

C: It didn't work.

S: I think that without proper support, it ran into difficulty in one place or another.

C: I think the idea of it was fine, but it just, didn't work.

S: Did you have any experience with the Unit Manager System?

C: Yes, I think so, but I can't remember.

S: That was another idea that was designed to take non-nursing activities away
from the professionals. Nurses wouldn't have to make out the linen list or check
the diet trays.
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C: That is the thing that still bothers me, though. When Jen Wilson was up there
having her hip replacement in Shands [a few years ago], I was with her, part of
the time. I would call her from home and she would say, she had not had
anything to eat since breakfast, and it was night time. So, I said, Did you call?
She said, No. So, I called and got the floor [nurses station] and talked to the
nurse and said that Miss Wilson has not had anything since breakfast time. Well,
the reply was, That is dietary's problem. I said, no, it is not dietary's problem. It
is a nursing problem. But then, I think if you start giving dietary more control and
other people, you sort of lose the thing. I don't know what the answer is. And it
is not any better now, according to Julie, out there at North Florida Regional
Medical Center, because, I guess they don't have enough RNs. I am not sure
what the answer is. A graduate from this program, now, starts at what?
$40,000? They say part of the problem with nursing, is doctors. Well, you see,
at Shands, I am not sure you are dealing with reality. In labor and delivery or on
the third floor, the residents have just graduated from medical school. So, we, as
nurses, knew more than they knew. So, they couldn't get too uppity with us. At
least that was true with the OB/GYN doctors (quite a few of them are women);
you do well, with them.

S: Yes, and that is what I hear from around the country. That those relationships
ebb and flow depending on staffing and the educational preparation. Some of the
nurses don't know more than the residents if they have come from an LPN
program or an associate degree program. They may not be that competent.

C: We have made progress and I think you could see that Dorothy, at one time, was
on an equal status with the heads of other departments. When I was in nursing
school, my mother died and I went up to stay with my father for, maybe, a week
or so. He took me on rounds at the Methodist Hospital. He would say, This is
my daughter; she is a nurse. Dad, I am not a nurse. I am in a nursing program.
He would say, I went in that room and there was a "pupil" nurse and she was
sitting down, talking to my patient. [Old school philosophy believed that talking or
teaching was not part of the role of the nurse] Then, when he came on the unit
where the charts were kept, the nurses were to automatically, get up if they might
be sitting down.

S: It was his expectation?

C: Yes, that they would get up. So, I said, things have changed. Where did you go
to undergraduate school?

S: University of Iowa.

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C: In front of patients, I usually will say, Dr. Cruz and Dr. Cruz will say, Mrs. Herbert.
We go back and forth, that way.

S: When Dorothy left, the college was in a turmoil. Polly Barton recalls that period
as being, difficult. She acknowledged there were some power shifts, struggles,
and a lot of anxiety on the part of the faculty. But, she saw it as a time when the
section chairmen rose to the occasion, more than any other time, to articulate the
program and the philosophy the way it should be. Do you have any recollection
of that?

C: Who was the temporary [acting] dean?

S: Judy Moore.

C: Yes, because the next person who came was Blanche Urey and she said we had
to put labels on our [name badges] that said "professor of so-and-so." I said, I
am not going to wear a badge that has added assistant professor under my
name. Our patients will not be impressed.

S: Blanche wanted our rank on the name tags?

C: Yes. I said, I am not going to do that. I said, it is not very good to go to prenatal
clinic with this badge. All I need is my name. One concern of mine is (even
though the present dean has said this is not true) the emphasis is on graduate
school and not having undergraduates.

S: That has changed a lot since we were there.

C: I am not sure how I feel about that. I think graduate study and PhDs are
important, particularly if you are going to do research and teach. I think it helps.
But on the other hand, I hate to see Sante Fe Community College sending out
their RNs as being the only ones.

S: When did you first get interested in Lemaze [Education program for parents-to-be
of exercises and breathing for natural childbirth]? Was that after you joined the
faculty?

C: I really don't know when it was. I can remember when a graduate student and I
went down to explain it to a group of doctors, downtown. One of the doctors said
that

there was one case of a man who had watched his wife deliver. He became
impotent for the rest of his life. Now, the MD said that we may not think
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that one man being impotent, was important, but it was [and the basis of a policy
for the delivery room]. We got more grief from the OB/GYN residents in Labor
and Delivery. It was friendly grief, such as, Do you want them [the husbands] to
come in when his wife had her appendix out? I said, That is not the same thing.
Eventually, the residents were nice enough to come back when they finished
their residency and say, Audrey, You were right. But we had Charlie Mahon at
the College of Medicine in OB/GYN, who was the kindest and most forward-
looking OB/GYN [physician]. He was in favor of husbands in the delivery room
and that helped a great deal. We also had Grantly Dick-Reed, the author of
Natural Childbirth, who came, for a lecture. It wasn't just breathing. Epidurals
came along [anesthesthesia that would allow patients to actively participate in the
labor with relief of some of the discomfort]. We would take OB patients on tour
and start in the emergency room. I would tell them to make sure to grab their
abdomen and go, Ooh, and the staff would get them upstairs, fast so they
wouldn't have to wait. When we toured the labor and delivery suite, the women
wanted to know [in a whisper] where the anesthesiologists and the epidurals
were located. It was fun.

I liked it when we were having interviews [as part of the admission process for
students entering the College of Nursing]. It took up a lot of time. Some people
did better with the interviews than others. But still, at that time, we were counting
on GPA [grade point average] and the ones with the highest GPA [got admitted].
Well, what got to me, was the fact that we had students from community
colleges with 3.8s and 3.9s out of these little rural community colleges and then
we had kids sweating through the first two years of the University of Florida. I
said it was not fair. Of course, now you find out that weighting is being done.
We should have weighted, as Michigan does. Just like people whose
grandmother and grandfather have gone to this university, then it is easy to be
accepted. Or if you play football, that is another one. Or if you are Afro-
American, you get more points. But we had to turn away blacks, Afro-Americans,
because of this. Or, if we admitted some, it was sometimes difficult to get them
through. We didn't have that many black students. And even now, probably we
have less because there are other things that black women can do.

S: What about faculty? Do you remember the first black faculty member?

C: Of course. Faye Gary [Faye Harris, Ed.D, 1975-present] and I are very good
friends. Faye has felt that because she was black, she was not treated equally.
She is a distinguished faculty member. She never did, sort of, meld in to the
faculty. She went her own way. One time, her mother came up to Gainesville for
some event and I said to Faye, Come on over, afterwards. Her mother said she
had never gone into a white person's house through the front door. There was
another excellent black faculty member. They let her go. She feels, to some
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extent, if she had been white, she would have been kept. She went to the VA,
but she should have stayed with us. Does North Florida Regional Hospital have
any black people in Nursing Administration?

S: It did for most of the time I was there. I had an Emergency Room, Head Nurse.
One of my other Head Nurses was Latino and over the years I had a couple of
men in leadership roles.

C: We had some males, as I remember, but not too many. Of course, when I went
to Wellesey, I had Jewish friends, but again, they stayed together, pretty much.
Then, when I taught, we had two, three, or four black students maybe, in a class
of thirty-six, and they always sat together. It is sort of hard to get away from this.


S: As things began to be integrated, do you remember the investigation and uproar
about the Johns Committee in the state?

C: That was before I came. That was about homosexuals.

S: It was perceived differently by some of the other interviewees depending upon
whether they had any personal experience with it. One story was of Dorothy
Smith having to justify the use of textbook, Interpersonal Relations in Nursing, by
Hildegard Peplau, because the author was Russian and the committee had
concerns and fears of Communism.

C: I recall the thing we all had to sign to say that we were not Communist. I said, I
am not about to sign that. Well, I remember Dorothy saying, it is up to you. But,
you are going to have to be fired if you don't sign it because it is now a state law
that you have to do it. And there I was, divorced with five children. I didn't want
to be fired. I didn't want to do it but I signed my name. It is so stupid.

S: I think that was one of the outcomes of the Johns Committee, that you had to
sign a statement, as a state employee, that you were loyal and faithful.

C: I would have a bumper tag about peace on my car, now, but I am quite sure my
car would be vandalized. That was amazing. I remember after the Kent State
University massacre [May 4, 1970, after years of pro-war/anti-war division among
the American people, a four day controversy between unarmed, demonstrating
students and National Guard troops called out by the Ohio governor, culminated
in mayhem that killed and wounded demonstrators at Kent State]. Dr. Eitzmann
[faculty member of the UF, OB, College of Medicine, at the time] and I wore black
bands on our arms.

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I think it has always been very hard to get doctors to understand what nursing is
all about. I wish we could eliminate the LPN [licenced practical nurse]
programs and have a BSN as the only path. I think the doctors cannot see the
difference between different types of nursing education. When one of the GI
[gastrointestinal] doctors from North Florida Regional Hospital was told he had to
go into the hospital for a heart bypass, he had his wife stay with him and said he
would tell any relative, if you are going to the hospital, be sure [to take someone
along as a health care advocate for you].

S: Many hospitals have a case manager system.

C: Yes, that is what it was.

S: Many of these hospitals want the case manager to be a nurse.

C: Yes, I think it should be.

S: Well, you and I learned that it was the role of the nurse to coordinate care. I
have been intrigued that Dorothy had non-nursing faculty in the early days of the
college. I am thinking of people like Carol Taylor, who was an anthropologist.

C: Oh, yes. Did she die?

S: Yes.

C: I think that was very positive, having her.

S: Did you work with her? Do you think that added a different perspective to our
students?

C: Yes.

S: Did you know Sid Jourard?

C: Yes. I didn't know him that well, but he is the one whose car crashed down on
him and killed him.

S: Sam Shulman?

C: The name is familiar but I couldn't tell you what he did.

S: Mary McCaully?

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C: Yes. What is the test that we all took?

S: Myers-Briggs Type Indicator.

C: I see her now and again. She goes out to the fitness center that I go to.

S: Did you know Sol Kramer?

C: I heard of him but I didn't know him.

S: I think he was in the very early years because Jen and Betty talked about him in
the first few years of the Health Center.
C: When was the first graduation class?

S: I believe it was 1956. [1960]

C: So, it had been going ten years by the time I graduated.

S: Tell me what you see as Dorothy's legacy from your perspective as a student,
and also, as a faculty member.

C: I have difficulty with that. The only thing I have known of nursing is from Shands.
I did all of my education, undergraduate and graduate, at UF. So, when I go out
to North Florida Regional Hospital or Alachua General Hospital, it isn't quite the
same. I think teaching hospitals .... Of course, other people don't think that.
They think, No, I will never go to Shands and have medical students and nursing
students where things will not go well. Meanwhile, I am in a state of shock that
people go any place other than a teaching hospital. Well, maybe not. I mean, I
suppose if you have an appendectomy, I suppose you could go to another place
just as well. They know me here, at Shands, and I just feel more comfortable. I
don't think I can answer the question about Dorothy's legacy. I had so many
deans. I think I learned more from Lois [Malasanos] than I did from Dorothy
(although people didn't get along with Lois). I am not sure about that. We had
too much emphasis on nursing histories when Dorothy was dean. I think it was
difficult for the students and for the patients.

S: That was also surrounded with a lot of controversy within nursing, in general.

C: Every time Dr. Richard Gorenberg could find a nursing history form in a chart, he
would take it out and put it in the waste paper basket. I said, Richard, Come on.
Let us deal with things like that.

S: In the last few years Dorothy was there, the nursing history process had gotten
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so proceduralized.

C: I wanted the requirement for admission to the college, to be more specific. I think
if you are going to have graduate nurse practitioners, particularly now, they need
to have more chemistry, more biology, more anatomy, and other related science
courses, than they had when I was there. Without a doubt, they need more of
that. Also, more philosophy, sociology and psychology that you can't get out at
Santa Fe Community College. Dorothy still advocated core courses and believed
that you didn't have to have chemistry or physics or zoology. But, I think we can
be kind and caring but if you are going to be a nurse, I think you have to have a
more scientific background, as well.

S: Sometimes, it seems that it was a case of the pendulum swinging too far the
other way.

C: ... because Jane Kordana had us cleaning off the beds. We had a graduate of
our program-her first name was Kitty-and she was the nurse in charge of labor
and delivery. After two delivery rooms had been splattered with blood, one night
at midnight, she called and asked for the cleaning people to come up. They said,
No, we don't work after ten or eleven o'clock. She said, well, I am not mopping
up the floor. She was told that was what the night nurse does. She said, well, I
am not doing it. So, they finally got someone up to do that. Obviously, floor-
mopping is not needed in the curriculum. I think that the requirements have
changed. We weighted the science courses in admissions. I think we put double
on the ones who had a scientific background. I think Dorothy started a change in
the nursing profession but she was alone in the first years. She was a lone
eagle, for the most part.

S: I think she was out on a limb. There were several people who said, every time
they left the College of Nursing to go to a meeting, people clamored around to
ask what was being done at the University of Florida. Do you remember all of
the visitors we had to see the program?

C: Yes. I just wish she had stayed.

S: What other things about your career have I neglected to ask that you think should
be included?

C: I have said this before to the people from the Florida Foundation, that it irritates
me when the present dean invites the retired faculty to a luncheon, it is for the
Foundation to come and talk to us about money. She never picks up the phone
to say, Audrey, what do you think about this or that? I told someone from the
Foundation, that I thought it was the money that the College of Nursing is
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looking for most of the time, and not for any other input.

S: Are you are speaking of the Heritage Luncheons?

C: I guess that is the name of it. So, I don't go. I go back to labor and delivery and
third floor at Shands. Or I go to OB/GYN to see Dr. Cruz or Dr. Kellner. But, I
do not often to the College of Nursing. Faculty has changed since I retired in
1996-1995.

S: Have you seen the new nursing building?

C: No. I have talked to Jim Guth [Coordinator, Advancement/Alumni Affairs,
College of Nursing, 1987-present] and he said in April ...

S: That is when they are going to have a dedication.

C: As I said, if I have to go over to see a doctor or something, I go over there. I go
downstairs and look for Joan Castleman or Debbie Popovich [Assistant
Professor, College of Nursing, 1987-present]. I think Ms. Spellacy [Charlotte
Spellacy, Clinical Assistant Professor, College of Nursing, 1991-present] was
teaching and then Michele Brimeyer [Visiting Assistant Professor, College of
Nursing,1998-present] was teaching. Michele and I needed a third person (this
was just before I left).

S: Audrey I would like to thank you so much for your time. Is there anything else
you would like to add?

C: No.

[End of the interview.]














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