Interview with Dr. Marinus Latour February 2 1977

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Interview with Dr. Marinus Latour February 2 1977
Latour, Marinus ( Interviewee )
Miller, Joyce ( Interviewer )
Place of Publication:
Gainesville, Fla.
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program
Publication Date:
Copyright Date:


Subjects / Keywords:
Alachua County General Oral History Collection ( local )

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University of Florida
Holding Location:
University of Florida
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AL 32AB Tape A

Sub: Dr. Marinus Latour

Int: Joyce R. Miller




Page -1- E rC

J: There we go. This is Joyce Miller. I'm interviewing Dr. Latour in his

office, 315 Benton Hall on the University of Florida campus on February 2, 1977

at 3:40 in the afternoon. Dr. Latour, uh tell me how your family came to Florida.

M: A4ight. Uh.... my parents both came from Holland. Uh they.... ly father

immigrated to the United States from Holland in 1914 and as far as my memory

of what they told me, they came to Florida because we had.... they had, both

of them had friends in Miami and so my father came through New York and

LCt ait-i~ by boat to Miami in a direct operation. No stopping in any

other place Uh my mother was left behind in Holland at that

time. They were not married yet, they were engaged.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: My father was working)I think on during this date, on the day he got married

because under the law of Holland and the Netherlands my mother could marry

my father by i. Paper work had all been established before he

left Holland and so then later in 1914, after she was married, after they

were married here in Holland, she came to New York and then by boat to....


J: And by the ori-ng estate, you're referring to Viscaya?

M: M J/jL1 Viscaya.

J: Mmm hmm.

AL 32AB -2-

Tape A

M: -iirin~ Viscaya...... or years of course I'd know it only as hearing estate)
tYCc esi \ vIrk-* Ch tL.< '
g -'--. 9,', Aright uh)I grew up ...... I actually was born

in Stuart, transient in my father's occupation. He was working for some-

I in Stuart the year I was born which i6 1917. I was born in

a rural area outside of Stuart called the St. LucRiver 1917 and shortly

after I was born, a few weeks or a few months at most,planned to move back

to Miami.

J: And where did they live at that time?

M: My father acquire a home, bought a home way out in the country just off of

Flagler Street and about close to 12th Avenue. Farm started just after you

crossed the railroad track going west..... -mI ~ w you were in farm country then.

J: Mmm hmm. Of course now that's part of Miami.

M: Yeah, a part of downtown.

J: Uh huh.

M: O So I grew.up in Miami. My father uh...... uh caretaker, manager, whatever

you would call it of some of the old big estates which no longer exist on

Miami Beach. And so I lived on..... I counted up something like twenty some-

odd places on Miami Beach that we lived at various times, in a.... what seemed

to me long time, but now looking at it I realized gee I did all this before

I was eighteen years old.

J: So as a caretaker he would get um.... a home on the property?

M: He would live on the property..... on the property during the summer and in

those days people didn't come down from the north until after Christmas.

Christmas vacations were in uh...... home wherever they were/1 VLong Island.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: Or wherever the family lived and then they would come down to..... Uh so we

AL 32AB -3-

Tape A

M: would live on the estate. Quite often when they came down we would have to

leave the estate temporarily for the three months period while they were there

because.... there was no room yA see. Now there are some others...... here

was a specific room or space allocated for the family to live. But this

meant I lived all over Miami Beach. Somewhere in the relatively early 1920's

uh my father bought some property in what.... in Miami then, section known

as Lennon City and built a house there and so then I was in Miami part of the

time going to school and part of the time I would be on Miami Beach. It was

a y4 know ..... my family went back and forth across@ _- -/ .

J: Now when you were going to school in Miami, was that Miami High School?

M: No, that was uh it started out when I first went to school it was Dade County

Agricultural High School but it later became Edison. See it was so far out

in the country then.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: And of course now it's in the middle urban area. We had everybody..... everybody

from Hialeah up to the northern perimeter of the county all the way up to

CD ___S I went to Edison High School at that time.

J: Was Edison and Miami the two major schools in Miami?

M: There was four major schools. Miami Beach Fisher on..... high

school on Miami Beach.

J: Fisher was a high school at that time?

M: It was a high school.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: Uh Pr_-CLL 6t r- was a high school, Coral Gables, Miami High School, and Dade
County Agricultural which became Edison. That was it. Uh ..... in due course

time...... ee I.... there was a period then when I was in Miami, the home

AL 32AB -4-

Tape A

M: in Miami when we lived in Miami, through most of high school except my senior

year when we returned to Miami Beachfand uh I graduated from Fisher,'now

Miami Beach High School...... thirty-five. Went to work for a year after that,

after graduating fw Na '-r together. And then in thirty-six I came to

the university.

J: When you were living in the beach and your father was working there, did he have

acquaintance with John Collins or Carl Fisher?

M: Yeah.

J: And what kind of capacity did you know of Rnm or did he know-~aof-=i ?

M: Well uh ..... those type ..... hose days, y seeI everybody who was a permanent

resident has distinguish from winter visitors, the snow bird types. Well they

didn't call em snow birds. They were people like Firestone, Gould, and Snowden,

and let's see Osborn......... these people came down but they didn't vote, they

weren't par,#, to any of the politics ,or the internal operation in Miami Beach.

Soyes, my father knew him. Well for a short, not a relative short time, fairly....

yA know several years he was Superintendent of Parks for ity of Miami Beach.

So that's when we were living in Miami and he was working in Miami Beach.

He laid out Park, Collins Park, and parkways on either side of,uh,

Aven ue all those trees and all that sort of stuff and then he had

the golf course where the high school is now.

J: Is that ?

M: No.

J: Oh no, no. Where the high school is now.

M: Where the high school is now there was a golf course on both sides of Collins


J: Mmm hmm.

AL 32AB -5-

Tape A

M: Which is uh municipal golf course. He didn't lay them out but he operated

them. I mean ...... he took care of em and laid out the parks and did a lot

of planting of palms and trees along all the parkways in the early days Vl-^ --y.

f3;g; growing and coming along.

J: I was gonna ask you something and uh l can't think what I was gonna ask all

the sudden. No, I'll think of it a minute. Oh well. You came... So you

came to the university...... Oh I was gonna ask you if your father was still


M: Yes, yes. He he uhf he was ..... My parents live' ..... I don't remember the

exact year when they died now. That's the sort of thing that becomes a little

hazy but um they live right on..... through after my graduation and marriage and

returned to university as .... as a faculty,

J: Mmm hmm.

M: So uh.... And I then early on\spent lots of time driving from Gainesville to
+0n CnC-pt
Miami and back and forth v-i4eig my parents. I wish they had built interstate

highways when I was doing this in those days which is twelve hours of rough

driving, usually US-1 from here to St. Augustine or Duor-on~vici actually and

then down through uh Tampa uh I mean.... Daytona and the east coast or possibly

through Orlando and US-27 down around Belglade.

J: Well when you were a student and you were taking these routes home to Miami,

did you have a car at that time?

M: I didn't have a car. Uh.... seemy first recollection was...... for the first

trip here was of course by Greyhound on Miami bus. I arrived at the old

Greyhound station. I have great difficulty remembering exactly where it was.

It uh was on one of the back streets uh just off of the square. It was not

where it was oh..... in forty-six or forty-seven but some other corner. It


Tape A

M: moved. They relocated the station while I was a student as a matter of fact,

and I remember that place better. I remember riding here as a freshman and

feeling totally ignorant of everything with a trunk and a suitcase and a

lot of wild hopes.

J: Was that typical of students who arrived here in the'30fs that rather than

their parents bring lem up and get em settled they would come by themselves?

M: Uh... it was typical if you came a long distance like from Miami or from

Pensecola or fromMdistance. Uh it became a little iffy if you were from

Orlando or any place between Tampa or where it was still a reasonable one-

day drive up early in the morning and arrive back late at night.

J: But people didn't come and spend the night and then go home or anything?

M: Oh I guess a few did but.....

J: But that wasn't the majority?

M: I think most of- from Miami that I can remember just-packed up and either

took the train up to Waldo, the Seaboard dumped you off at Waldo, or took

the bus and there were lots of routes you could come up and it kept changing

and the Greyhound would route through all different ways. My favorite one

was to St. Augustine and then back from St. Augustine through Gainesville.

There was a bus route from St. Augustine through Gainesville to Cedar Key in

those days...... and that's the one we caught/was the Cedar Key bus. That

Cedar Key (joy_ _1i~,.

J: How many hours would a trip like that take?

M: It took about twelve hours.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: I remember the first trip I left..... I think I left uh..... Miami sometime

AL 29A8

Tape A

M: late at night, one of those owl-type things, and arrived in Gainesville, well

before lunch the next day or something of that sort. Of course by 10:00 oh1

about 10:00 the next day.

J: Now when you came up and you got off the bus, did you take a taxi from there

to the university?

M: Yeah. The cabs were all over the place, Star cabs uh and a lot of them and

they..... they were ten cent area cabs, anywhere in town for a dime which

was a lot of fun....... because although a dime was a lot of money to us, I

was trying to see here..... I think.... I did have..... in my wallet. May

have put it right back in a safe place but uh..... not too long ago...... I

was looking through my stuff I kept. I had a uh.... card. Drivers give

you a card, y know call me if you need a cab. And I had a card left over

from my student days. The only reason I kept the thing is that the back of
the card had theuh..... listing of the...... license tags,yA know one Dade

County, two......

J: Mm hmm.

M: Uh so... Duval County. And I had that card and I ran across it the other day.

I was trying to remember what I did with. Probably put it away where I wouldn't

lose it and now I can't find it. But uhit's interesting to look at

because there's an old Star cab on it, had the man's name, and the telephone

number which as I recall, was only a two or three digit number.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: And uh.... ten cent cabs so y' know he was there at the bus station. Yeah.

He met all the busses,so why not? All these students were coming in at this

time and it was old experience to the cab driver and as many of em


AL 29AS -8-

Tape A

M: as he could load up he wanted.

J: So you.... iou wouldn't be taking a cab by yourself but with many other students

at the same time?
M: Hmmm mmm, no. Everybody that...... l know he kept loading stuff and strapping

trunks on the back and yV know, they were all sticking out of the trunk and every-

body in. Y told him.... Y, know you read the letter which told you where

to report, where to get your room assignment and dormitory, and he didn't pay

much attention. He knew where he was supposed to go. He just took yg there

and dumped y .

J: What month was this? Did school start then in August or September?

M: September. September.

J: September.

M: September of thirty-six. It was .... it was sorta fun. I I arrived yY know

bang, you were in a dormitory area.

J: And which dormitory was this?

M: Well it was a complex which is.... there was Thomas, Bhckman,and what's now

known as Sledd which at that time called new dorm simply because it was the

newest dorm and I got a room on the fourth floor of new dorm, the least

expensive of the higher..... higher-quality rooms in the newest dormitory.

J: Do you recall the cost of it?

M: Haven't the least idea. It was some..... it seemed like a sizable slug,

like $60.00 for a ... for semester which was y$ know1$120.00 for the..... .'uite

inexpensive and yA had a.....

J: Was it just you or was it with two or?

M: No, there were... there was a ..... I had a roommate, it was a boy I went

to high school with that had gone..... we both graduated in thirty-five but

AL 29AS -9-
Tape A

M: he'd gone immediately to the university and I'd been out a year and worked so
...... came in....I... so he had roomlwith just whatever the university had

paired him up with but he made arrangements then in the summer before I came

up that we would room together. I roomed with him. Of course he wasn't there.

I had to be there for freshman week, he wasn't gonna come til the following


J: That's what I was gonna ask you. What was orientation like during that week?

M: Welllit was fairly interesting affair. Uh,/y knownormal things. Everybody.....

,ome guy collected you up and you got pieces of paper from the university which

told you to report in such such a place..... names that you'd never heard

of before ly know uhPeabody Hall, or Language Hall, or Science Hall or

someplace you would report at such-and-such a time; you will have a group leader,

and somebody found you and they hauled you around and took you around to

wherever you had to go and you went through the whole process of registering.

If you were pretty sharp, in my case, they had preregistered a whole bunch of

us for some reason or other. They had sent in all that material early and it

indicated the curriculum that you wanted to take.

ftcNr-AZCdK and there it was. It was all made out and you just went

through the lines and you stood in lines, not as long as they are now, but

lines in the administration building where the business office which is what

is now Anderson Hall.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: And it was in the basement down there and you stood in line and the bookstore

was in the basement as was a soda fountain type-of operation too.

J: Did you get your red cap that first day or did that come later?

M: Yeah that came the first day.

AL 29A8 -10-
Tape A

J: Mmm hmm.

M: And I don't even remember where I got it but you got it. I guess it was at

the bookstore they were available and then promptly turned the bill up and

wrote your name across the front of the bill just to be sure that you keep/ *

If you dropped it and you didn't have your name on it well it was fair game.

But if you dropped it and had your name on:it, well it was returned to you.

Not considered.... it wasn't considered good form to steal somebody's cap......
other than temporarily as a.... as a joke. Yp see we were not supposed to

be without it, therefore, if you ripped off somebody's cap as a.... and hid

it someplace so he was without it then you were in tro.... then the guy

was in trouble because he wasn't...... didn't have a cap and supposed to have

a cap. You were supposed to be seen crossing the Plaza of the Americas. You

were not supposed to cut across the grass. That was forbidden to freshmen$.

You were supposed to stay entirely on the walk which probably was a real good

thing, it kept wearing out..... it kept the grass from wearing out.

J: Did they have walkways through the plaza at that time?

M: Yeah, straight across.

J: Just straight.... The one straight across?

M: Yeah going straight across.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: If you wanted to go y knowany other place, you go straight across and down

the street and then there were streets at both ends. The one in front of

the library and Peabody was a... was a street with cars and parking spaces and

all this stuff.

J: Mmm hmm. So the first day it was mostly registration and paper work and books andf..

M: Yeah, and then I don't know there was orientation seemed like day after day.

You got here on a Monday or a Tuesday, whatever it was.

AL 29AB -11-
Tape A

J: Mmm hmm.

M: There was something on Friday; they had an entertainment in the University

Auditorium, it was just some sort of a gala affair with band, yp know a band,

that's distinguished, not the university band but a band, a dance band and

this.... remember this was the era when you had dance bands and this sort

of thing. Of course it wasn't a big band, but it was a band.

J: Was that for the purpose of listening as there were no women here or ',
M: Yeah. Yd listen and they put on skits and programs and sang and all that

sort of stuff. They..... .t was called skit night as a matter of fact.

J: So it was in the evening?

M: Yeah, it was in the evening. It was big....... last ... last event before

the weekend which then preceded classes.

J: Was there anything similar to..... I don't know in recent times, but at least

ten years ago, where everyone met together and they initiated the honor code

to the whole group at one time?

M: Uh, well we did have orientation meetings in the auditorium and people got up

and spoke. People in the honor court, I'm sure spoke about the honor court and

people from student government explained how student government operated and

you got this as part of the indoctrination. You didn't take an oath or anything

of this -eking.

J: There wasn't any..... specified place where everybody stood up and they said

this is the oath and .....?

M: No. All you did was just... just go there and you're told. It was.... ft was

assumed that uh if you pledged this.... you were.... it was a matter of honor.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: Uh \NWC not in great use these days. I mean, if you talk about honor

AL 29AD -12-
Tape A

M: for a person and........... you..... there were days in the past where if a

man shook hands on, it was as binding as if he had signed a full legal documentl

and this was the nature of that ..... the honor court code at that time. It


J: Well1 why were freshman..... id you ever run across the group..... I know that

you had theatrical interests. Did you ever run across the group called the

Green Dominos?

M: Never heard of the Green Dominos. I may have at the time but they didn't make

a great impression on me.

J: I read recently that they were a group that.... a theatrical group among

freshman and I had never heard anyone mention it before.

M: Uh they may have been earlier...... than.... than our group. There were

several groups, They were dance clubs, if you wanna call em that. Dancing,

y know ballroom dancing type-of thing was very big and you had dances and

this was part of the social activity and there were Cavaliers1which was a

organization that primarily.... for dancing. And then there was two others,

Cavaliers is the only one that comes to mind.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: The name but uh I'm sure that they sound like..... I..... The Green Dominos

sorta sounds like a slightly earlier one than I'm familiar with. The groups

uh that would put on the ball like and the dominos..... the mask was called

the domino, probably wore a green one.

J: Hmmm.

M: Now I'm..... That was just guessing.

J: I think it was in thirty-four. I just.... I didn't know if it survived til

the late 304s, probably not.

M: Yeah. Things.... things come..... Organizations come and go and of course

AL 29AB -13-
Tape A

M: the time you're in school, you get the illusion that everything that's happening

now happened before that just exactly the way it's happening now and will

continue to happen there forever. This of course is why a lot of alumni get

all shook up sometimes when they come back and-fy find that it isn't the

way it was when they went to school. And to them it was very nice and fun

and pretty. Yg knowthey..... they enjoyed it, it was great. And they sort of

think gee, you guys doirnthis sort of thing and that and) y know they... they're

disgusted with it. They say why don't you do it this way. We had a lot of

fun doing it that way! And I think this is part of the problem where alumni are

not happy with the way things are now.

J: That's almost any place that you go back to.

M: Yeah. Yeah. Ya know a man said yp can't go.....

J: Can't go home?

M: Yeah.

J: Yeah. Were you a member of a fraternity or were you..... did you remain


M: I remained independent.

J: And were you approached thoughlor did you attend rush at all?

M: No, I didn't attend rush. Uh.... I didn't.... I was probably pretty naive

at the time, didn't push in that direction, probably/for one thing couldn't

afford it so I didn't bother. The only thing I got active in uh.... my

freshman yearof course I had to participate in all the freshman eventsjuh
y# know. Football season the first fallI uh every football game was the

parade downtown. You've probably heard about the thing. Downtown you

quickly...... /f you had a good friend you told em don't wear slippers. Y'oA

know there was always somebody that wears slippers at the pajama parades

AL 29AB -14-
Tape A

M: down the bricks of Universtiy Avenue. Somebody always would be wear bedroom

slippers and then of course,you have to run like mad and bedroom slippers

aren't made for running. You put on tennis shoes. (chuckle)

J: I wanna ask you one more thing about fraternity and then I wanna go into

this pajama parties and talk about it for awhile. Um, did you feel that

there was an attitude on campus that if you didn't belong to the fraternity

you weren't really part of the campus or a discrimination sort of?

M: No, no, no. There wa.... there was a group that belonged to fraternities.

They were usually some of the more affluent people. Usually their fathers

were doctors or lawyers or professional people. Uh...... they.... /ou didn't

necessarily feel excluded from them. You met them in classes, you were

friends with em, you may even ..... uh they um..... engage in social

activities with m. The fraternity was sort of a sepArate thing which

belong to them and you then had your circle of friends that you belonged to.

But I never found any great problem with it uh..... or at least I never

felt excluded from anything. Do I recognize? Yes, it was somebody else'gy/4.

It's about the same a~s-ie emm as the comment you were talking about last

night. Uh the Pancoast Hotel on Miami Beachwhich is long since been gone/

but it was a..... y know kind of a not very large but rather nice place uh but

for a number of years it had the little street sign/yf know. Uh I don't

know whether it...... I don't Know how a sign can be discrete but yf knowwhat

I'm talking about?

J: Mmm hmm.

M: But uh Iit's the sort of the same feeling you had about fraternities. Yeah, they

were there. You weren't ,(j to them. It didn't really bother you.

Ygknow you.... you weren't uh.... it's like belonging to another group. You

had your group that you belonged to. The persons involved..... were not uh.....

AL 29A -15-
Tape A

M: It was sort of like belonging to a country club and you not being able to afford

it and don't care about playing golf.

J: So you could still be involved in other things on campus?

M: Yes.

J: Student government was not exclusively fraternity or anything else?

M: No. Uh then of course the Alligators always did then it did was... made

are all voting as a block. Maybe they did. Uh..... in a sense, although

I suspect that students being what they are, tending to revolt against things,

probably were told by the fraternity vote so-and-so and in the secrecy of

the uh.... ballot. YA knowlprivate ballot. Voted anyway they wanted to. I

suspect they always have done this. But of course,it makes good editorial

things and......

J: So the alligator was not con.... fraternity-controlled? I mean it.... condemned

in some sense the fraternity block?

M: Ohlyeah/there was always editorials about fraternities and block voting and

and uh..... cartoonsly know same political stuff that you see on.... today

and same arguments. I don't think they k1aSgSs i i

J: Now, in reference to pajama parties, it's interesting to see the different

opinions that people have of the pajama parties. I've talked to many community

people who think that they were just great fun, they happened all the time,

and that everybody got involved/and then I talked to a person who was.... who

I guess one of your contemporaries, Dr. Anderson, who said that uh it was

actually a terrible experience where you would be changed down the main street

and possibly beat and possibly made to kiss women's feet on the sideline.

Uh/what exactly is the....?

M: I don't know. I I IiI U1 ^y~~_, y7 know ,y had to. Everybody out. All
I I I \I

AL 29AB -16-
Tape A

M: the freshman out of the dormitories.

J: Is this before every game or before the first game?

M: Before every game.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: Or practically every game as far...... I don't remember that it was every but

you got everybody got out and you knew you had to do it Saturday, Friday night

and...... rat caps and/uh people hasslifg,you around. T-

Hassling, it was uh .... it was sort of a teasing-type thing. Yj know how

kids tease each other? It's that type of thing. It's uh.... um you were

rushed. Of course the fraternities got their people out- pr rr~cS'. Fraternities

then existed from ..... 13th, now 13th was then 9th street.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: Along there and down toward town and in what's now 2nd Avenue is what

T. Uhthere where where the uh....

J: Phi Tau house is today?

M: Yeah and all these are.... are still at the corner where the filling station

used to be the SAE house and somebody was across the street and all these start

fading away. The Sigma uh..... The Kappa Alphas were directly across from

the ..... um/Plaza of the Americas and they are the big southern fraternity and

...... ut these people got their freshman pledges out. They had to participate

and I guess they made itf they paddled the boys and I'm sure that sooner

or later some.... in one of these organizations you got some guy who... who has

a mean steak and find somebody.... somebody who wants to do something mean too.

Uh Anderson of course, Dick Anderson lived in Buckman Hall. Buckman Hall was

the least expensive dormitory quarters at the time. It was the oldest dormitory

and as far as I know it hadn't been remodeled at that time and so it was like

it was in the..... /1ell probably some remodeli-because there used to be class-

AL 29AB -17-
Tape A

M: rooms in there and now it's all dormitory space.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: But like it was in 1905 when it was built. Being the least expensive, it

tended to.... you had a rougher group of boys in that.... in that thing.

I was over with the.... where some of the people next door, this is the

second year I was there, where people from Miami but they were two boys

who were sons of a couple lawyers down there that uh professionals...

know there's a slightly different, not universally true throughout the whole

more expensive dormitory, but that sort of thing. And maybe he did see something

in his dormitory. VCAC A %C gS some pretty -\l C I never had any

...... uh it was sorta fun. I actually uh.... first time you were scared because
you had all the stories told to you about how they beat up on yp and that

sort of thing. So you went out afraid not to and afraid to if you know what

I mean. It was a .... it was a tingle sensation of nervousness. This was

a new adventure type thing. We was just kids- e c t icAtn years old.

And they..... You went downtown. You had to run for awhile. Some of the

fraternities went by and there would be somebody out there with a garden hose

trying to spray somebody, yi know. And then you might have a hassle .

They take the hose away from him and wet this guy down yX know that was

trying to spray him and then back on down the street again rush, rush, rushing

and someplace down by the square the...... cheerleaders and all the other stuff.

J: But you didn't ever get beat up or anything really ?

M: No. I never.... never suffered anything.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: You get winded running like mad for awhile and then slow down and boom,everybody

stops and you jam up together.

AL 29AB -18-
Tape A

J: Everybody did this like about the same time of day?

M: Yeah, it was in the evening.

J: It was all in a mass group?

M: Yeah.

J: And.... what would it be, a whole evening type of event between running down

there and the cheerleaders and everything?

M: Well. Yeah, it was after dark. It was like .... what1 7:30, 8:00 after supper.

Ya know there were notices in the Alligator and the Orange and Blue Bulletin,

The university had an official bulletin called the Orange and Blue Bulletin-came

out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. If the administration published a notice

in that it was th. ame ..... that carried the same weight as if the president

had personally come down and and told you that you were supposed to do something

at a certain date. Like you got notices about when you had to apply say for

graduation, what the do..... what dates were, y/ know the closing dates for

various university activities. And the Orange and Blue Bulletin was a nice

little thing. A mimeographed operation that was.....

J: Did they make it officiaL like put it in the Orange and Blue Bulletin about
the pajama parties.

M: Yeah. Well, the pajama parades then there were official notices and then student

notices yA see. And this was a student notice that everybody would be out) y

know .... pajama parad / such Et such a time. It would be in the alligator

and um...... it was just announced. I mean everybody knew it. Got the


J: Mmm hmm. Did you have to run back also?

M: Sometimes. Sometimes you came back at.... at a leisure..... more leisurely

pace. But it was a..... do own and back.... back to campus..... (end side one)

AL 29AB -19-

Tape A

J: There it goes, it just caught. You mentioned the upper-classmen.

M: The upper-classmen were sort of wandering along the sidewalks and watching

it and laughing and jiving and uh making comments the...... the ways kids

do. It wasn't a great uh...... it was a lot of fun. I think uh.... look

back at it with a certain amount of nostalgic pleasure. I mean I don't

have any painful feelings about it.

J: What about the rat court? I got the feeling that those also could be fairly


M: I gather that there were a few uh that were rough. You always find that

in a group of 3,000, 3,500 students you're gonna find a couple guys with

sadistic tendencies and they're gonna try and beat up on somebody.

J: Did you ever get called in front of the rat court?

M: Uh I guess we had a couple over in the dormitory where I was. Uh nothing
of any ...... Y.Y know usual penalty-type things, wacks with a paddle and

where you this time you should be able to recite, ph you ought

to be able to re.... do the alma mater completely, you were supposed to

carry matches with you in case somebody wanted a light, and you had the rat

cap. I don't know. There were things that you should know. Should know

the names of all the buildings and their locations by this time-it's a

required process. -YW probably had some utility in that you'd learn the

names of the buildings and you knew how to sing the alma mater yg know.....

y know kinda thing.

J: But you don't remember specifically being called up?

M: Huh uh.

J: So do you feel that it was..... f a student had never been called up to the

rat court that they would almost make up a charge and bring him up there or

AL 29AB -20-

Tape A

J: did you feel that they were really valid things?

M: Oh. They they this was a kangaroo court type of thing. It was the whole

thing was was uh.... In most instances it was supposed to be fun. I mean

it was uh...... There were charges of.... absurd charges that were brought

up just for the purpose of uh.... teasing, of,of repre...... doing something

to a guy to make him nervous and to.... to scare him. It was a sort of a

scary operation. Notlmany came up. As far as I...... I never was a

participant to anything like that.

J: Mmm hmm. What kind of students would serve on the rat court? Would it be

elected officials?

M: Oh no, this was a kangaroo court. Just a bunch of guys get together and decide.

hey we're.... the sophmore usually, let's have a rat court and and run upstairs

and get those two freshman down here and um makem do undignified things.

Makeb'm crawl around or make4em stand at attention and recite something or

to um.... and then if you make a mistakefyou're.... you're I the

penalties. It sort of like a.... playing a game like forfeit games with like

maybe little rougher than .... than the kid type forfeit games. That sort of


J: Well as far as learning the information about the school, the alma mater,

and uh the name of the president, etc., um in the(40's they had what was

called an "F-book".

M: Yeah, had it in thef30's too.

J: Did they have gp in the130 s also?

M: Yeah, mmm hmmm. It had all that information in it and it told you what you

were supposed to be. The F-book came out _. Ther indeed was

a student government position which was the editor of the F-book.

AL 29AB -21-

Tape A

J: Mmm hmm.

M: He had to then have it ready when the freshman came in for distribution.

J: So when you were here in w you got that right off the bat, an


M: Yeah mmm hmm and it wasn't a big book. As I recall it was about the size of

a pocket notebook-type thing. It was about like this. Yvknow had all sorts

of good little information in it uh where things were, and what the names of

buildings were, and names of deans of colleges and who the student government

officers were and all..... everything you you might necessarily need to know.

J: Q*K.Cno1 when Steve O'Connell came here in thi4L tfiv, there was no general

college as such and then when you were already in thirty........

M: --Jh tyefrve? There was no....

J: Or thirayftWf, excuse me.

M: Yeah. Tbity..y-fe, yeah.
J: THU-ft u.

M: Yeah.

J: He missed it by one year.

M: Yeah.

J: And then you came in L-i g s.ix.....

M: That was the second year tat the university Co I l~ Yeah.

J: The second year of general college...... at what we call university college


M: Yeah, general college.

J: What was the reaction of your class to that? Uh Steve O'Connell's class

felt that they were lucky they missed it. -WtE was your class attitude?

AL 29AB -22-

Tape A

M: Uh I don't know about my whole class. Most of us it was the second year. Uh

the propaganda was out and besides that we..... we had one year to shake
out some of the problems. Um.... this was yA know Hutchinson's, University
of Chicago, President who was.ayA-knowI tih young guy who was /resident of

the University of Chicago and it was an innovative idea in education and it

sort of fit *with my preconceived notion of what an education should be. That

is, you were supposed to be educated. Y weren't going to the university to

be trained for something, although I was going into engineering which meant

I was going into a professional field which has a concept of training. But

you went to the university to be educated, to know about music and art and

literature and uh..... science if you were bent in that direction, physics and

chemistryjuh mathematics. You were an educated man as distinguished from....

And you didn't necessarily do this uh because you could uh..... uh you could

earn a living uh...... differentiating equations or doing something...... Ya

know you did this because you wanted to know. The : *-,AMMe concept

was you wanted to be educated because you wanted to know. It was a personal

thing. Uhthere was a lot of words then aboutlyes, we are having a lot of

people that could go through and say take uh.... plus-add and avoid the

cultural aspects of the universtiy in it4s entirety)and so there was a

great deal of criticism, I guess through the/20s, that we were.... the

universities were turning out, particularly state universities, were turning

out uh..... degree cloeOs. I mean they had a degree but if you said Helen

of Troy they would sayl "hat? Troy, New York?" y4 know.

J: Mmm hmmm.

M: They wouldn't know what you were talking about. They had no concept of what....

of what we call a classical arts,um, liberal arts education. And it was a

AL 29AB -23-

Tape A

M: move, a wave of let's change j#, let's make.... let's continue the nec.....

the..... like plus-add that you might consider of .... of engineering or

anything else. The schools but let's indeed make sure that these people

get educated in the process; that they know what English is all about, what

language is about, the humanities, and let's at least...... make it a.....

make it.... present it. Whether it..... whether it goes down or not, that's

something else again. And my..... fy own reaction today, I thought it was

great. I liked the university college. There were some things that were

tough about it like yX know you went for a whole year and too one final

exam which was your whole grade. Took six hour/final exams, three in

the morning, three in the afternoon. What ever you made, that was your grade

for the course.

J: So there wasn't any grades along the way at all? Class participation?

M: You had progress exams. Yeah, you had progress exams.

J: You did have progress exams?

M: But they had.... they had no bearing on the final grade. They were just

indicators where you could say)"Xey you're few&eg behind or hey, you're doing


J: Were they objective tests as the progs in the late 60 s?

M: Yeah.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: You)y4 know marked up little things and ......

J: How about the finals? The three....three hours?

M: Yeah.

J: Were they also objective tests?

M: Yeah, you had a little.... little uh sheet y/ know,you filled out with the

AL 29AB -24-

Tape A

M: electrographic lead pencil. Ya~know, we had the special pencil so that

it would go through grading machines.

J: nMmm hmm.

M: Grading machines down at.......

J: Seagle Building?

M: Seagle Building. And it was fun. YA knowland I look back on it and s I

'See, I'm really glad I went that route" because we had to even have the uh.....

university course in biology...... the ya know general college course in

biology in my time which as far as I know is not a required biology as far

as the science is no longer required.

J: I'm not sure what they require anymore.

M: Yeah.

J: But there was not biology at that time. Was there institutions?

M: Let's see, there was American institutions, the EnglishP course which was

reading, writing, and speaking WSita )c uh..... and a math if you were

not going into a math-oriented professional field like I was. There was a math

course uh a general math and then there was a general science course, C-2

whatever it's called and uh which we didn't take because we had.... took

chemistry instead.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: And then in the sop ore year was the humanities and man in the...... man

in the social world and man in the uh ..... biological world or something

of that sort was the title of the course.

J: Did they have logic .or affective thinking?

M: Yeah. That was.... that was for the people who were not going into math....

weren't going into science fields which required required math courses.

AL 29AB -25-

Tape A

J Mmm hmm.

M: They had to take the logic course. Uh the _v_____ in effect.... uh logic

and effective S,.4-6o-A-.c t2 ^--,

J: Mmm hmm. Did you know Steven O'Connell perhaps as a boxer on campus or as

student monitor?

M; Yeah, I saw him. Yeah. I saw him as a boxer, I knew him as a.... casually as a...

as a um...student officer, ya know student government-type guy. 6o 50AoVor,.

Uh somewhere in the session of things, my roommate and I used to work out in
the gym, yp know not regularly. We would run into him over there either

working out or >p-rt, for when there's a season for boxing. We

had ~e boxing in those days. Apparently the closest they come

to that now is intercollegiate wrestling in which somehow or other wrestling

is a eight, boxing is uh..... dehumanizing sport or something. Y know it's

supposed to be too violent.

J: Mmm hmm. Who else do you recall? Outstanding names either?

M: Oh, well Sch Smathers was the ..... was the section..... well, y know,

dormitory section, he was the section something or other. I don't know what

they call em now, monitor. Maybe it was monitor but uh in the section

I was living in that time. Uh he wasn't around a lot. He was the /resident

of SAE..... SAE at that time and then I guess the year before or the year

after that he was uh student body President. Of course he went on to senate.

Uh Waldo..... Sheldon Waldo, the local townsboy, local Gainesville boy, he

went on to be /res...... rational president of the United States Chamber of

Commerce but then he n&S z& friend of ....... Smathers. He died relatively

young. Uh/Paul Rogers was around campus. He was.... he's currently a


J: Congressman? Mmm hmm.

AL 29AB -26-

Tape A

M: I knew Paul primarily because he and I uh acted in one.act plays, the same

one-act play twice. One year, missed a year, and then a year again uh,playing

the same as..... .t's a little..... '_ __ or somebody. It's on some

little one-act play. A little pot boiler -l called "The Still

Alarm" which had couple firemen...... doesn'tt sound very rational to explain it.

Couple firemen enter a hotel room where the hotel's on fire and start in

this conversation with a guest and one fireman always brings a violin with

him because it's the only time he only gets a chance to practice. Back at

the station he's always kept busy polishing the fire engine and cleaning and

drying it, racking hoses, and on a fire he has time. He can always sneak

off someplace and he's off doing his thing and there's a conversation And

the two hotel guests, Paul Rogers and some other boy who's name escapes me,

and um well the hotel guests and I and another guy played the two fireman,

and I played the violin.

J: Oh, you played it?

M: But uh so I knew Paul Rogers and then there \NAS p Lots of people .....

and it's kinda hard to remember em all.

J: Right. Um in terms of clubs, I know you were active in dramatic productions.

Were there..... beforee we talk about dramatic productions, were there other

clubs on campus that you were involved in? For instance, Phi Beta Kappa came

on campus around that same time that you did.

M: Yeah. I was.... I was involved. In those days, engineers were not eligible

for membership of Phi Beta Kappa. I didn't have the grade average to make

Phi Kappa Phi. I was involved in uh Sigma Tauwhich was the honorary engineering

fraternity. I was involved in the student branch of the American Institute

of Electrical Engineers which was a student organization. Uh those vg VCrt-
I !

AL 29AB -27-

Tape A

M: the areas of my involvement in the club-type activity. I can't think of

anything else. Well, it was the radio field which was part of the dramatic

part of thing. Put on the uh.... /t was an era there where your ..... your

uh radio drama was very big.

J: Mmm hmmm.

M: YB know uh..... I did sound effects for uh..... radio.

J: Was this the same time um Dr. Anderson was doing voice effects? Did you

ever work together on that?

M: I don't remember, we might have. I can't recall any particular play. We

were..... /e did uh..... did plays on late Sunday afternoon, rehearsed early

Sunday afternoon. I remember the only good story about it and one that

I will always remember. We were in an audition, we were in a studio in

operating using the audition facilities and of course Sunday afternoon, early

afternoon from 2:00 to 4:00 or something like that, they always played a

symphony, yo know recorded a symphony. Vo/\awo v. c the masters and

they might play a symphony and a half or a symphony and some small other

piece to fill up the time period. But we were rehearsing and it was a mystery
and I was doing sound effects buluh the two ..... the program and the audition

system were operating on a common power supply and um I shot off a couple of

pistol shots which coupled back from the audition system where we were rehearsing

through the power supply into the program so we put two pistol shots, one

after another, in the middle of the hour of the masters which woke a bunch

of people up around town. But it went totally unexpected. Y know it.....

sat there and bam bamN\4'itpistol. We did all sorts of things/ y know
---- //

AL 29AB -28-

Tape A

M: door :slamming, came up with a whisk broom which we could squeeze the bristles

)cause we had a man moving through reeds. d know the script called for a

guy going through a field of of uh corn stalks, dried cornstalks. Well

by squeezing the bristles of a whisk broom it sounded like a man crawling

through a .... field of dry corn stalks, crunching and things of this sort.

J: Well how about in terms of um your activityuhin the plays? Dr. Constain

was already here by that time.

M: Fletcher Constan7/ was head of the Speech Department. Uh..... when I first

came here Lester Hale was .... was a young instructor, he may have been an

assistant professor, uhhh who was working on .... he was directing the plays.

The last..... the end of my freshman year/I went over and helped, somebody

invited me, said hey why don't youlya know'get active in something. Go over

and play with the Florida Players. You'll like this. You're going into
electrical engineering, go over and maybe do the lighting and so I worked

for them. Uh my sophore year I showed up ya know again first play and

everybody shows up. Paul was i"1wov, for people to show up so that

then I showed up and Z was it. I was the only one left of the previous

electrical crew and so all of the sudden I was it to do the lighting. I did

the first show and did it well and then I did all of them right on through

the time I left here.

J: And at some point you got involved in the acting itself?

M: Well, y know you're there, you get the .... you participate in all sorts of


J: What was your reaction to Lester Hale as a director?

M; Oh he was.... he was amazing. I liked him. He was... he was tremendous.

AL 29AB -29-

Tape A

M: He could do uh..... le instituted some things that I really liked, I thought,

hey, this is the right way to do it. Nobody.... if ..... then once the....

the curtain.... the curtain went up. If we say 8:00, the curtain went

up at 8:00. Once the curtain went up the doors were closed and nobody came...

nobody was seated after the curtain was up. We.... Y/ know we always made

these announcements I'obody is seated after the curtain ws up' and the curtain

goes up promptly at 8:00 and we always had people...... uh coming late and

wanting to be seated afterwards." Hey I got tickets. I wanna come in/' And

I remember..... uh Professor Constance firmly having the door closed and 4a

eo-'P& smiling through the closed doors.... whoever was trying to get in

from the outside to go away, the curtains up and nobody's admitted after

the curtains up. So Dr. Tigert ........

J: I knew..... I thought you might say that. (chuckle)

M: Yeah. And yy know yA tell these people and and we did. The audiences were

trained, they were imsined on time, and you can do it. If you do it you have

to be gutsy enough. Lester Hale was gutsy enough to go ahead and close the

doors and keep em closed. Constan t was too.

J: And where were the plays performed?

M: In the auditorium of what was then the P.K. Young School which now is Norman


J: Is that...... the auditorium part? Would that be on the first floor?

M: On the first floor.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: I think they've chopped it up into something else. It was probably the nicest

little auditorium I have seen in all the time I've been playing around with

AL 29AB -30-

Tape A

M: the dramatic activities. ) was very well effect..... t was nice and

effective, it was useful, it was well-designed. It was convenient to work

in from a stage production viewpoint, acoustically it was good. Uh the

only problem was it was not air-conditioned. Of course, in the summertime

it was hot and not comfortable and people objected to it but it was nice.

It was conveniently know?

J: Mmm hmm. Was it free to attend?

M: Student,activity fee was free; outsiders there was a..... some monitary charge.

I've forgotten what it was miegin t w something like thirty-five cents.

It was obviously nothing more than the cost to go to the Florida Theatre.

J: And you'dum n get a program.

M: Yeah.

J: And would the attire for this kind of thing be..... more formal than you

M: Yeah uh, yeah. If uh ... if)uh a student would be prompted then to put

on a tie at least, yi see? If it was warm enough to..... ff it was warm

he would probably or..... If it was winter-time..... tie....jacket would

be appropriate.

J: How many plays um would they put on per year?

M: They put on two.... they put on four, four.act plays in a year and two bills

of uh one dcts.A Two major plays and a bill of one-acts each semester.

J: And would they um ....... iell that's Oe0. Um how did you get involved from

that to the Little Theatre?

M: Well uh that was a natural output.

J: Mmmm hmm.

AL 29AB -31-

TApe A

M: The Little Theatre operation was..... drew on a lot of university talent .and

they had problems of equipment" they were limited in equipment and so ....

yj know there was a talent and we'd borrow some of the equipment and then

4vrIl' borrow the people to go with the equipment to run it see. Well, we

don't know how to do this ya know. That sort of thing. You got involved and

I became more involved after World War II when I came back with the Little

Theatre and we put on plays in the recreation center and also one play

we did in the auditorium of the,uh Kirby Smith which I gather is about uh....

J: 9ld.

M: fPld. I wonder what they're gonna do with that building?

J: They just spent the money to renovate it. That's what's ironic. They

spend money to renovate it and then they close it. Doesn't make sense.

M: That doesn't make sense. And itv.... it's....It is..... I like it. To me,

it's a school. th these uh classrooms in the round and

modular teaching or whatever yp call it with y/ know..... one class in this

end of a large room and one at the other and both of em competing for the ....
for the acoustic ...... y. get this we talk a little louder, we

talk a little louder and pretty soon it's ..... it's ,_lth .

J: Right. I know.

M: It's about as absurd as the concept of cafetoriums which came in in the late

1404s, early 50"s where you combine an auditorium and a cafeteria into one

to save money.

J: Yeah.

M: Neither of em were worth a darn. Wasn't a good cafeteria nor was it a good

auditorium......... cause yL couldn't..... For a cafeteria yf couldn't place

your facilities where yA wanted em.... and for an auditorium you were always

AL 29AB -32-

Tape A

M: with competition with the dishwashing and the smell of food.

J: Well we started out with a open space at Buchholtz and they've put up walls.

Everything has walls now. There's no open space. Umlwhen you did work

with the Little Theatre, was Thelma Bolten there?

M: There was Thelma Bolten.....

J: How about.... and John Selly? Was he director of the .... the Little Theatre?

M: Yeah, Selly was around and uh I don't remember him too well. Thelma Bolten

I did remember and Alice Pfrrish with.... but of course she did J *miw*

with uh.... with a little... Florida Players also.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: And these people would.... would move back and forth. You would have to

draw for .... for uh.... since v VwOve boys school and draw um r mei~es. Females

out of the talents. High school girls or professor's wives or high school

teachers or whatever you'd find. Just tell em go ? teacher at

the time.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: And uh....

J: So rather then have the boys dress up like girls you would use the community


M: Yeah. Yeah, use the community people.

J: How many days would a performance be when it was through the university?

Would you perform three days the same play or how would it work?

M: Yeah, we usually ran three days.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: CS a.... Thursday, Friday, and Saturday........ and then Wednesday was a

dress rehearsal. So from our viewpoint, we did four days but \I.A J-. -t

AL 29AB -33-

Tape A

Can you remember some of your early plays?

Oh yeah. We did uh.... I remember one...... well, the Vital Importance of

Being Earnest ygknow and\the Old Warhorse,"and uhCan't Take it With You,

uh..... let's see that one,~Can't Take it With You,' is that from the.., has

the..... Yeah, that's the one that has the -\\0_C- with fireworks 4-_c4-oM

and....... Daniel Riss who went on, went to after he graduated here, Daniel

Riss played and then he went to WLW in Cincinnati and used to read that

poetry program they had in the evening called "Moon River and Enchanted White

Ribbon of Night" y1 know and then he went from there as a good actor in

Hollywood and I understand he died a few years ago but uh the play had
/ O
an open trap door ...... ellhad a stairway to the basement and/ y know/

fireworks explosion occurs.During the rehearsal the trap door on the stage

was open and we were ...... when we were hauling we were moving some drapes

up to set scenery and one of em as we went up, hung up on another as;mm as j

went by in the process and I grabbed the stage brace and I was goin1over there

and was go free the thing and I came up and stood at the edge of the hole

and was reaching up and I couldn't quite reach it and the stage brace wasn't

quite long enough and I took one step forward and of course forgetting that

I was standing at the end of the hole and I went slowly made this tumble

down through the trap door and know extremely blue language coming up

as I went out. Mrs. Walter J. Matherly was playing a mother, the __oedi

mother of the young man in the thing with uh Billy Chandler as I guess the

husband playing the old stage banker, Jih Billy Chandler, a lawyer right now,

uhly know, she'was much concerned, she came rushing up. She was sitting

there knitting waiting for her part in rehearsal and-gament for us to q

tdSj'off the stage for rehearsal and I went tumbling down and landed yd know

AL 29AB -34-

Tape A

M: in the sand under the auditorium stage and fortunately they hadn't concreted

it down there.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: Did nothing serious. Even it happened... madt about it. Came crawling up

out of the dirt. (chuckle)

J: Well uh did Dr. Constant direct any of these himself or did Mr. Hale do them?

M: Yeah, he directed some and then te Hale went away for awhile.WCo to LSU

to work on his doctorate and Roy Tewa, in the speech department, directed

plays for awhile and then there was Charlie Maglonna, I don't know what

happened to him and a guy named Paul 6btS e?14'1 uh was here. He uh......

As far as I know, Go rl-^i4- is still...... runs an interior decorating c-I

gift shop in Jacksonville over in..... San Jose, the southside section.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: I see the name on the store. I stopped by a couple years ago a few times

and said hello but I haven't had any reason to see him. But various times

when Constang- direct one he played and he played in\"ur Town. He played

the part of the stage manager in Our Towd'which he did an excellent. He

directed a few plays. We put on one play as you may remember, the play

'NTobacco Road'which is very famous. I don't know whether it was that

new wave and all about southern crude language and we had some local student
that wrote these y/ know.... wrote a play similar idea with lots of foul

language in it..... that we cleaned up somewhat and/uh/presented it. We

put that one on in the auditorium, Univeristy Auditorium, as alyl know.... local

student written paper. They called .... ft's called\\Cracker Coal. \Cracker

Coal was a # lighter notch y nowwith the
resin in it and you collected the cracker...... farmers w would collect withese
resin in it and you collected the cracker...... farmers would collect these

AL 29AB -35-

Tape A

M: notc~ to burn because they burny/ know/ like ..... very hot flames because

of the resin in the notch and it's called cracker coal and this was the

equivalent of coal for crackers. -An~agha-we had one scene, we had a

fish fry scene and I rigged the thing up with.... I.... with the stage

manager, I rigged up the ... the uh I 1^-C- of the lights and that rotating

thing to make it look like a fire. Where the man put the frying pan we

actually put a hotplate so it would get hot and we got real fish and a frying

pan with oil in it and we sat there and started/ know really actually

frying fish on the thing and people yr know.... people were talking on the

stage and the audience and all of the sudden the smell of frying fish

started moving into the auditorium and people's head would jerk up as they

suddenly became realizing.... yeah, they're really frying fish.

J: That it was real. (chuckle)

M: We did this um..... peoplee do these things because they think it's fun.

J: Well, let me ask you uh something away from the theatrical area for a minute,

and that is when we talked once you told me an interesting story about a

radio station where the guy just said forget it and walked off. Could you

tell that again? r^ o wo^ S^ t ,3

M: Oh. Yeah. That that one is good. There was uh Tommy Ruth Eic'~ ......

Tommy Ruth A cr.~' Waldo, she married Sheldon Waldo. Tommy Ruth c-c1'- 0

was an organist; she's the organist at the Baptist Church now. She's formed

a music faculty I guess now. dsic ac : ...-. She ts on

the faculty,she got a doctorate. But in those days in the University Auditorium

they did a late afternoon.... the/did a portrait-type program where they played

soft organ music and they did a broadcast from the University Auditorium stage

and they had a little broadcast booth built on one side of the stage and uh......

AL 29AB -36-

Tape A

M: Bill Gibbs, he's 'a lawyer in Jacksonville now, also was a musician; played

with one of the dance bands, but he read poetry and he had this nice um

announcer's soft voice.and they read these romantic poetry, the etodfvr' L v'.C

)-~ 'I t'- and some organ music would play in the background. It was a half-

hour type of program, WRUF. This was in.... at the time of the Italian

War with Ethiopia and.... and the Italian Air Force was under the command

of Count which is a mouthful of words to sayand of course,

there was Benito Mussolin who was the dictator of Italy and then there were

lots of other Italian generals with long multi-syllable names. Uh... Bill

Gibbs had a they had a news program...... I don't know whether Bill Gibbs....

Aut anyhow, there was a news program that he was supposed to announce from

WRUF. The studios up here were where the policostation are now and

Y-r S
was due-An at 4:30 or 5:00. Instead of going to the 1 0 Vuh yA know

coming down from the auditorium down the hill to the ........

J: Police station?

M: To the police sta.... where the police station is now, he stayed there.....

(End of Tape A)

(Begin Tape B)

J: o041W--

M: Anyway, they had a young kid who was learning to be an annoucer. He was,...

y/ know part of the program was to..... formal in those days, there was

no department of communications like there is now. But um.... they said

"Hey this guy isn't showing up" and thrust the news in his hand .... y/

know the sheets, tear sheets off the teletype machine and said wotd you
do the ne coursebeing ung d brash and ull oyes indeed he
do the newsand of course being young and brash and full of Iyes indeed he

AL 29AB -37-

Tape B

M: would do the news. He would........ o he went into the little announce

booth out here at the..... what's now the police station to do this.... the

news broadcasting. Of course, the actual news broadcasting was being done

from a .... from the University Auditorium broadcast facility there and the

engineers had piped it around. This guy was just talking into a PA system

and all so that the engineers and the rest of the people in the station could

listen to him and of course, as you might've be expected when he suddenly
runs across and it comes out horribly mangled and it was

one mistake after the other and everybody in the stationplistening to it

laughing their heads off. And it was a big joke and finally of course1they

let him in on it and hey~ c' a .- al mer. Later in the evening

the same guy that pulled the joke in the auditorium it doing a recorded

music program and he puts on a record and plays a record and he looks down
at the window and it's one of those half-floor up, y/ look down in the....

at the guy on the engineer's desk that's running the controls. The engineer

is sitting there and \ w -and the two of em are just laughing

their heads off. Funny as all get out Yknow .... looks..... makes

his announcement for the next record, puts the next record on, goes back

and looks out and he sees they're laughing and again they're just hilarious.

Everything is funny as all get out. And he gets suspicious. He thinks(

gee, they're playing the same kind" joke on me that I played on somebody else

and y-vknow there's something else going on which I am not aware of. But

he wasn't sure. He couldn't hear what they were saying. He was sort of weed

to the desk therelcause he had to sit there, put the records on, make the

announcements, stop the records, put a new one on, one upya know get the

other one off the file, start the two turn tables. Kept him where he couldn't

AL 32AB -38-

Tape B

M: go running around to see what they were saying. He put the.... /ent on for

about the third record or the fourth, somewhere along that line and looked

and they were still just laughing and everybody was seeing the biggest

joke you'd ever heard of. He was convinced that he had been had. So he

faded the record down, faded up his microphone and said "You can fool some

of the people all of the time but you can't fool Mrs. Dell's little boyuh....

Gibbs. No, Mrs. Gibbs' little boy Dell. I'm going home and go to bed' And

he cranked the thing off and walked out of the place. Unfortunately, the

guys on the table weren't listening to what he was doing at all. ,

yJ know not paying any attention, he's not .... he doesn't shake the needle

around, yy know he's nice and even and they had their private little story

and they were telling it, and telling each other stories and laughing. So they

didn't notice that he walked out of the place and he was up the hill and

leaving and nothing was on the air Icause they weren't listening to it. Suddenly

they looked over and the needle was just sitting on zero and then they turned

it on and there was no speaker and no Dell Gibbs.

J: (chuckle)

M: Instead it was just dead air.

J: What did they do?

M: Somebody ran upstairs and put a record on.

J: (chuckle) Now you mentioned the facility that was over here at the present

police station. Was it the same identical building?

M: Yeah. Building was exactly alike oa C7r /-A. Well not partitions out

of the side or anything like that.

J: And the facility at the auditorium, was it behind main stage or was it upstairs?

M: No, it was behind ..... it was on the stage to the well..... to the right as

AL 32AB -39-

Tape B

M: you face the stage.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: It was just a little booth with a glass window in the thing and all these

dials and controls and microphone out there across the front of the stage.

J: Now you were here when Joh igert was president and also Ci4e eame was head

of the business office. Did you know either one of them or have any experiences

with either of them?

M: Well uh..... yeah, I had occasions to speak to Dr. Tigert. You you spoke to
Dr. Tigert yi know he was on the campus and you there

weren't that many of us and he was in his office in Tigert Hall and he

was just li...... you were just liable to encounter him crossing the

Plaza of the Americas or ...... whether yoarse-going there or somebody's office

or wandering across there. So you spoke to him. You didn't know him......

asas a person. Uh the interesting thing is thatlum..... my father-in-law,

who was in education, thought very hightly.of Tigert and as a matter of fact
/1 /
had..... I guess was taking lots of education courses here in the summer time

and had been taking a graduate course and had attended uh Sunday school classes

with Dr. Tigert and knew Tigert and I guess has uh..... somewhere over there in

the files is a letter of recommendation for Dr. Tigert and my father-in-law

was applying for the principalship at another place.

J: What was your father-in-law's name?

M: Saunders. He was principal.... f was /upervising Prin..... supervisingg principlee

in Deland and went from there to Miami Beach __

J: So you never really um had anything personal, any kind of a personal meeting

with Tigert.

M: No. No. I had a conversation with -Cl-i-4r-a-hm one time and I can't even

AL 32AB -40-

Tape B

M: remember the reason what the conversation was. I remember I was in his office

for something else and we somehow or other got to talking and I don't even

remember what we were talking about either. I find him a rather pleasant

guy to talk to although he was kind of a hard nosed, y knowguy to
/ o w 1 /gu
understand about business matters. I'm sort of sad to see that Gra&h Field,

the old track behind the stadium is gonna vanish ,C___ what's already

vanished and it's still known as Grah Field but it's gonna vanish when

they put that parking lot in.

J: Mmm hmm. What about your professors? Do you recall who they were and....?

M: Yeah.

J: Did you have any humorous or different experiences with any of them? Q e.- 7' .

M: No, no. There's a .... in humanities course/we had old Dr. twnvJ_- t ?

he was a philosophy professor. I guess to all Ijk1Us-5 P putses, he

was the head And tail of the department of APilosophy in those days. Uh/

_wj-_ l was a classical absent-minded professor. He was... e would

encountering going home for lunch in his car with the car in second gear,

the gear shift.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: He'd gotten from first to secondlbut he had forgotten.... he'd gotten to

thinking about something else and then he forgot to shift into high. I had

a ....a humanities course discussion section under him in......... uh what

used to be the old law school, I don't know it's over.... the building

on y$ know.....

J: Bryan Hall?

AL 32AB -41-

Tape B

M: Bryan Hall. Uh and this was right at 1:00, right after lunch. Uh he... he
( -Cr? i .. '-R C-'r
was, very loud wGn-'to lecturer and he lectured although it was supposed

to be a discussion section, he lectured. He would pace back and forth across

the front of the room. Came right after 1:00 and then the second semester

starting in late January and it's well)into the warmer part of the season.

toward the end of. Uh it was warm and this boy had

a sat.... always sat in back with his chair tipped back against the wall and

he used to go to sleep back there. And EV\J "i- would never miss

a step and he would walk by the blackboard and pick up an eraser and as he

went back across the room he would let the guy have it with that eraser

and go flying back y know, hit the wall right above his head or right

along side of him and wake him up. Ies, never miss a beat and

go on talking but he would wake him up by throwing an eraser at him. Uh

se- l _____ was a young C-1 American Institutions professor,

Carleton, Carleton got pushed out of here by/uha fellow named Charlie Johns.

J: Charlie Johns in the 0-s.

M: _uh butih~e Bill Carleton, Carleton.....

J: Co-<_ ___ ?

M: Was quite a character and I enjoyed him because I had him as my discussion

section leader in American Institutions and did rather well. Uh I anchored,

my freshman year I anchored American Institutions and on the final exam which

was 36f90 only grade. I was a ninety-nine point nine percentile and I was
the top of the.... ya know I was the top man of the curve. And I remember

the next year I ran into Carleton going across the campus, asked me Vhy did

I..... -If I wouldn't consider going into political sciences but I never


AL 32AB -42-

Tape B

J: Yeah. What about you engineering professors? LQ.r' "

M: Well,there were not too many. Joseph Weil which WeilIis named, head

of the Department of Electrical Engineering. Uh..... Professor CS 'h Cra

who has since retired, Professor Ed Smith who retired last year or the

year before after putting over forty years in the department, and Professor
C1\S 4. LaC >r -_~ -
John W. Wilson. That was the electrical engineering department.

J: Were there also the other engineering departments besides electrical?

M: Yeah, yeah. There was electrical, mechanical, Cli\ chemical, ...... and

industrial. Uhhhh.....

J: Were a lot of students in engineering because it was an all-male school?

M: Well I don't know whether they they were..... .e had a number of students

and they were..... Y/ know it was the only engineering school in Florida

was the University of Florida and a little bit of engineering at the

University of Miami.

J: What buildings were here for engineering students at that time?

M: The engineering was what's now Walker Hall and Benton Hall which is not

this Benton but the one where they graduate students go... .... the

graduate studies building y knowright behind the auditorium and east of

the auditorium. Benton Hall was torn down. Uh where Walker Auditorium is

there was a shop......
J: OAQIlone second. East of the auditorium, torn down, is that where the

new graduate building is?

M: Yeah.

J: That's where Benton Hall was at that time?

M: That's where Benton Hall was.

J: 0 And what was the third one you mentioned?

M: The shops were just next to it.... where Walker Auditorium.

AL 32A -43-

Tape B

J: Mmm hmm.

M: t&qW that was the engineering complex at that time. Everything was in

those buildings. Uh hysics/epartment had some space in Peabody at that

time and on the top floor of Benton.

J: Do you know when that complex, the Benton Complex, was torn down?

M: Oh about ten years ago I would say...... and the only way to find out

is to get the date on thengthe graduate building was built and then subtract

a year from that,

M: Yeah the graduate building has been built since I've been here. I just.....

I never could remember what was there beforehand and there must've been

a building there and I just didn't recall it even though I would walk to

Peabody all the time.
N: "'~ r~ cgL 4( ~A \i Le S t 4('2
M ,,, ^~ ..v _- nejuned .. rt.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: Buttthere were a lot of people that uh........ yf knowlin engineering. But

the engineering department...... the engineering college. Blake Vanbiwm f -Eri~dif

was was -...,Lt and he left here to be jean of Hngineering at North Carolina

State, left North Carolina State to go to Georgia Tech as /resident of Georgia

Tech. And I saw Blake Vane=er one other time I Iafter sometime in the late

140s or maybe 1950. It was either 19..... late forty-nine or 1950. I gave

a talk at Georgia Tech a&ffs~j s as a courtesy student type

went up and made a courtesytalk talked in the Union and he had just been

elected president of Southeastern Conference. Georgia Tech was in the

Southeastern Conference and the only thing that he could talk about to me

after the exhausted yF know how's so and so and this kind of talk, uh was

his Southeastern Conference meeting and the fact that he didn't think

AL 32AB -44-

Tape B

that Florida would ever have a Southeastern Conference winner.

Sure was right, wasn't he?


Well the next thing I was gonna ask you was about Gator football. Uh we

were in the SEC by that time.


Um, do you recall going to the games?

Oh yeah. I ushered at the games. After my freshman year, a friend of mine

in engineering became head usher for getting people to their seats. Not

on the student side but on the public side and uh he got paid a dollar to

be an usher.

For the whole game?

For the whole game. And ...... .ach game. And uh what you did then, you
i A
grabbed it..... The stadium y know just started at the ground level and

went down. You didn't have the seats going above ground and so that's

row thirty-two ,so you had thirty-two rows down the ground level. And then

I...... iou'd grab..... get these people and they wouldn't fill up the

west stands completely as the students didn't fill up the east stands

completely. There were only thirty-five, thirty-six hundred students and

so y know you have about the same number and a lot of empty spaces. There

was plenty of room to gvAw in the stadium in those days. Uhland so you'd

run down and point out the seats and take people to the seats. You'd

actually usher them to the.seats and you have three or four students on

each row, each isle. And they still use the same numbering system that\S

on the 1. exactly where it was. I remember running down and

coming up and since then the ground level was the press box and I had the

AL 32AB -45-

Tape B

M: aisle right next to the press box and the president's box and uh I was

running up and down and it got very warm, warm fall afternoon and it was

through. Everybody was seated and the game was about or had started and

I was standing up at the head of the aisle next to the president's box

which is at the bottom of the press box at the time and the governor was with

President Tigert. Leaned over and he said "Young man you better ger=s

jacken Cause I got very warm.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: Sorta sweaty and he was afraid I was gonna catch cold That was Fred (CP Co&r-

from Lake City Governor at the time. Y1 know fr ./( y know paid

that much attention to my welfare.

J: Was Coach Bachman still here in the late 30s?

M: I'm trying to remember who.... who was coach. Uh uh l remember when Tom

Leid came here. I don't know whether he's uh.... whether he......he was
Bachman's successor or not. We were in the process of y/ know getting rid

of this coach and still seeking -.

J: But the coach you remember was who?

M: Leid. L-e-i-d.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: -P* his brother was a federal judge for a number of years in Tampa I believe

and I don't know what happened to Tom after that _DM .

J: So he was..... Leid took over sometime in the late ~04s then? You do

remember him being there?

M: Yeah.

J: Mmm hmm. Um, what about Gator Growl? They were having Gator Growl by the


AL 32AB -46-

Tape B

M: Right. _Ip___ ___ I worked two Gator Growls as part of the

work crew on the field and we did it in the northeast corner. Ya know,

it's the north end zone and then there's a little flat- J-L4vLaand

we used that little flat in the corner to set up a stage facing that corner.

This way we had accommodated everybody.

J: Urn did you use the facilities at the Union and did you use the Y.M.C.A.

at the Union?

M: Y.M.C.A. at the.... at the Florida Union wasn't all that big a thing. TheI

uh it was mainly the Florida Union. It was a brand new building, just completed,

had freshman cla... lecture classes in parts of it because it was a big open

space and uh... they ..... the tables were just bleacher boards laid on
L^v<'~-q' r^ LDC!?"N <
saw horses and chairs set behind it and a-mum mem- Dower and Carleton were

lecturing in there C..... American Institutions lectures were there for awhile.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: Apparently just to get space together. Uh it was a very nice place, I thought

it was a very attractive, was much impressed by it, had the chapel upstairs

and William Jennings Bryan lounge downstairs, A?)sa~sA main lounge. I can

remember going there after ai Council..... after some program.

Had a program of uh.... cultural programsI y ~iat the campus cultural programs.

Had a sculpture on exhibit or something. Guy by the name of ,

he did mobiles. I was much impressed with his name more than anything else.

Uh there were several singers that were part of the cultural program and

we used to have reception.ate.

J: Mmm hmm..

M: V I^ k-J rC,-Qrt-U

AL 32AB -47-

Tape B

J: Now I'm trying to think. I guess the last one they had there that I recall

was in sixty-six when they had Scott Kelly researching this.: Still in the

old Union before the new one&: was built. Did you know Billy Mathews at

the time as director?

M: Oh yeah, yeah. He was the director and, y, know.......

J: Was he out there actually doing things with the students or was he just

like the official person in charge?

M: No, he would.... he was visible. Uh he wasn't there all the time but

Ay^ surprisingly enough, that kind of a job required your presence at uh....

more frequently than uh..... .ou'd see him around in the evenings. Of course,

then he had that finished and they built the pool hall and .... and.... and

the soda fountain downstairs in the basement.

J: That came later after the initial building?

M: Yeah, after the first.... 4ell, after that those things slowly moved in

there. Took a little time 'cause I think they ran out of money to finish

this place.

J: Were you in ROTC while you were on campus?

M: Yeah. Mmm hmm.

J: And what do you recall about that experience?

M: Oh that was..... /hat was a fun experience uh when I was in field artillery

because all engineers went in field artillery. Field artillery requires the

knowledge of trigonometry and engineers know trigonometry and so that's the

logical sequence of things.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: Uh we had horse-drawn field artilleries. The stables that they're gonna

tear down, the old stables over here that now that they're in the process

AL 32AB -48-

Tape B

M: of talking about..... yell, they're going to tear down to build the new


J: Coliseum ?

M: That coliseum or whatever it's called. Uh they actually housed horses in

those days. Big, fat mean-tempered, uh work horses. Big things. And had

a .... where the um concrete parking area that used to be a temporary

building uh there was a corral, riding corral, and.- riding lessons.

You learned how to ride. You were told to march around and ride around

and how to mount and how to tighten up the saddle and how to put the bit

in the horse's mouth without gettin)your fingers bitten, all the nice little

things you're supposed to know. And then this uh..... /aptain..... cao-N

think of his name now, came back after the ar as a colonel. He was

a /aptain at that time and he had his own personal mount, a beautiful horse.

He'd be out there, ynow and the horse would be prancing along looY-1 yM

and i ...... .We'd be on these big, cloddy, ugly animals and he would

explain what he wanted to do, he would be walking around the corral, horse

oJ o-- walk in a line and he wanted the lead horse on command, to gallop

around and then to the rear of the line and stop and then next command was

the next one and do this \' Those horses would never go around

the periphery They wanted to cut diagonally right straight across the

corral and he gave the command and it was my turn and I..... kicked my

heels in the horses belly/y know let's go. And he started to cut across

diagonally and of course I knew I wasn't the first guy to do this and

all of'em wanti do that and everybody that.... where the horse had taken

the bit and gotten away with it by just going right straight across instead

AL 32AB -49-

Tape B

M: of around the periphery, the (aptain would really blister them for not

keeping the horse against the fence. Vteoi0 L$o
reins pulled back as hard as I could, horses head was cocked right around

practically where he was looking me back in the eye and almost turning

him around to keep him in the fence. It didn't make any difference, he still

went across the center of the corral to the far side and as I was leaning

into this thing with all my might, just pulling back as hard as I could, all

of the sudden/ that rein broke and I went pitching into the dirt because,

yA know I was leaning with my full weight into the thing and all the sudden

it let go and there was no way of stopping. But I didn't let go of the broken

rein, I hung on and kept the horses head pulled down and I stopped him. I got

back on and we tied off the reins ya knowlso I could go and the guy.... Captain

came over and asked me if I was hurt and I said "No" and it's just.... really

I was mad was .... my uh.... sense of propriety or my falling off and I

didn't like that. And about fifteen minutes later I wanted.... looked to see

how much longer we were gonna keep up this nonsense and then I discovered

I'd lost my wrist watch. The strap had broken in the fall. So the Captain

got everybody out and we walked across the.... the uh(where I had fallen,

y know .Xc -man side by side carefully sifting dirt and CM rane aamg

he came up with my watch. I think it's still running.

J: W~iq& ROTC 31 an everyday thing? Would you be out there everyday?

M: No. You went..... .ou had parade one day and drill one day. Two days a week.

Thursday afternoons were drill.

J: This was for everybody?

M: Everybody.

AL 32AB -50-

Tape B

J: For how many hours?

M: Uh.... I guess it was two hours or two and a half hours, something like that.

J: The whole school?

M: Yeah. Well, everybody th was in ROTC.

J: Which would be just about everybody?
M: No. It'd be all the freshman and sopInores except those excused for religious

or physical disabilities....

J: Medical? Mmm hmm.

M: And then you have those seniors who elected to take advanced ROTC.

J; And this would be all army?

M: All army.

J: Mmm hmm. And that was for drill and then friday,you say, you would have.....

M: And then.... /o, other days in the week you were there for uh..... Thursday

was parade.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: Other days of the week you would be there for drill. This would be practicing

riding or uh classes. Half of it was practice and half class. You had

these military manuals and you had to learn.... yf know field artillery, you

had to learn I've forgotten, six or seven or eight good qual...

qualities of good oats and you had to be able to recite and say how.., how

you'd smell and taste and feel oats that you had to feed your horses. My

sop pore year they introduced motorized field artillery and then I discovered

to my amazement that there were college kids that didn't know how to drive

a car. I couldn't believe that, see I was driving since I was fourteen and

here was a guy that didn't know how to shift gears. He was taught how

to drive a great big six-by-six truck f4\ gears or you put in the

AL 32AB -51-

Tape B

M: gear-shift lever in the normal place that you did in an automobile.

J: But your obligation would be two years?

M: Two years.

J: And uh if everybody came Thursday, the other days were just groups of


M: Yeah. Mmm hmm.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: Classes. couple o5 Co S S j ,

J: What about infirmary privAlges? Did you ever use the infirmary while

you were here?

M: Yeah. I went to the infirmary.

J: Was it.... /as it much more expensive? I understand it was... /hey might

do minor surgery at the.... in the infirmary at that time.

M: Yeah. Mmm hmm. Yeah, they might becausetuhthat was all there was. Sort

of going to Alachua County Hospital. Uh I didn't have surgery there. I....

I had the f~sY and was in there for several days. They had black nurses

there or at least black LPNs. I don't know whether they were RNs or LPNs
but uh...... this was in the winter-time naturally. If you had the fWw

they'll wake you up at 6:00 and take your temperature. And you'd be

awakened at 6:00 with what appeared an absolutely empty white uniform leaning

over in the dark and you look up and there's nothing in the white uniform. You

couldn't see the black ..... inside of the uniform. The first time it

was startling, after that you got used to it and the other time I was in

there I had a problem with my wisdom tooth was not was.....uh going sideways

and cutting the side of my face and my face was swollen and there was a

mumps epidemic and so the first assumption that they had at the infirmary

AL 32AB -52-

Tape B

M: was "hey you got the mumps. And then they decided no, you haven't got the

mumps, you got a tooth infection and so you've got to go downtown to a

dentist, which I did. Uh he looked at it and said'y; knowit's a nice

healthy tooth but it's gotta go because it's in the wrong.... y know

wrong place in your mouth. And he said "Well, 0% we'll take yF to the

infirmary because it's like having an operation" but I met him at the

infirmary ~o-l. LCLCr-t '^ took me into his own room in the infirmary

like a small operating room.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: Gave me an anesthesia which knocked me out and then he removed the tooth

and then the next thing when I woke up much later in the day I _

J: Was Dr. Tillman the director of the infirmary at that time?

M: Yeah. Mmm hmm. I didn't know him. _

J: Mmm hmm. What about petitions? Were students able to petition, drop

courses, sign up for things late, and things like that?

M: Yeah. Yeah, they had rules about petitioning or if you petitioned to sub-

stitute courses or whatnot. We had all kinds of problems. The problems

of bureaucracy are the same. Somewhere in my files I still have a letter

from.... form letter from the registrar advising me that the course EL4

something or other, radio station operation was not being offered this quarter.

You have registered for this course that is not being offered this....... this

semester. Uh..... or the course has been dropped because of insufficient

enrollment. You will report to the registrar's office before such-and-such

a date and fill out a drop card. Failure to do so will result in your being

given a failing grade in this course and be assigned a failure fee for a course

AL 32AB -53-

Tape B

M: which is not being offered. So bureaucracy hasn't changed in the university

at all over the past time. They still do dumb things.

J: But once you petitioned was it fairly easy, as it is today, to get things


M: I don't know.

J: Or maybe that's an assumption that it's easy today.

M: I don't know whether it's any ea.... more difficult or any.... ya know it's

it's.... You petition and you you uh.... I don't ...... think that)um ....
It was probably y,9 know..... where there were less people and everybody was

was sort of aware of what your problems were. I mean people didn't get

into problems. Y knowyou could straighten a guy out before he got into


J: Were there counselors to help you with decisions?

M: Uh.... everybody..... tou knew everybody y....

J: I mean academic counselors.

M: Yeah. Everybody on the faculty was was somebody.... was doing academic counseling.

J: Ohyj I 5 $St

M: I mean it wasn't a case..... I don't think that it was formalized in that

sense except that somebody caught the duty every semester to perform the

duties or sitting at the desk in the office and doing registration. Yafnow

taking guys as they come through and tr '( registration ,A \crs

ro c- vCO. As far as petitions, I don't recall avjeWmegX major problem

with it.

J: Did you participate in intramurals?

M: Only mildly. Uh.... I think my only participation in intramurals was ..... uh...

one time I was.... that somebody caught me and said "Hey, come out

AL 32AB -54-

Tape B

M: to the intramurals because for our dorm section. Because if we can

field a full team the other people were supposed to play can't and we're

gonna win by default.)

J: Right.

M: And then I went out there and we won by default and that was my participation

in intramurals. I was an engineer and engineers had laboratories usually

in the afternoons. YA know ..... it meant that you didn't have time for

those sort of things. I guess if I were really keen about it I probably

would've made up time for it. My roommate and I did for a time there, uh get

interested in uh..... uh working out in the gym and there's a gymnist

instructor ..... gymtya know tumbling type of things, doing tumbling, hand-

stands, and flips and that sort of thing. I was never very good at it.

I kept trying ya know run and do a flip forward. I used to....

(End side one of Tape B)

J: You mentioned your roodate a couple of times. Did you stay in the dorm for

the entire four years or was he your roonate for three of those four?

M: Uh.... uh the boy..... I was roon ates with ..... I had a roonrte .... with

a guy that was a year ahead of me for three of the four years.

J: And his name was?

M: Uh..... Brown. Dc Doug Brown.

J: Mmm hmm.
n o/
M: That's sad y4 know high school and then I had to stop

and think of this boy's name. Uh he graduated I

graduated and went to graduate school and World War II came along, everybody

went different places uh..... our lives changed and our family. We moved....

moved back to..... We moved back to Miami Beach Miami. Uh....

AL 32AB -55-

Tape B

M: when we went.... when I went home, I was nowamng J a different group

of people ..... uh Miami Beach or Miami Beach instead

of the people I knew in Miami and know it was.... it's difficult.

J: Mmm hmm. Well one thing I'm curious about is in reference to the library

entrance. There's a library entrance on the south side of the library that

is never open. It's over by the bathrooms. Was that an open entrance

in the 30Ys?

M: Yeah. That's where I went into the library. That was the way into the

library. There wasn't an entrance on the other end because that other

end wasn't built.

J: The entrance that we use now which is on the um west side?

M: Yeah.

J: Was not there?

M: That part of the building wasn't there. The building went.... /here were

two..... There was an upstairs and a downstairs, there were two reading

room areas.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: And stacks behind uh....... in in that part which is closest to Peabody Hall.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: ^eSt that part that you go in now, where you go in the entrance and you can

turn to your right and go back into that part toward the south door. It

was a solid wall and then that was the end of the building.

J: Mmm hmm. So the section that's all on the north side is all new.

M: Yeah.

J: And....

M: Ad te fu rth f r s s

J: And the fourth floor is also new?

AL 32AB -56-

Tape B

M: Yeah.

J: That _. There was I guess todaywhat we know as the reading room

downstairs and what do they call the top one, humanities room?

M: Yeah.

J: Above that. And that would be all that was the library?

M: Mmm hmm.

J: Is that correct?

M: Yeah.

J: OAI. Now, rather than ask you anything else/cause it is so late, are there

any things you'd like to tell me off-hand before we close your interview?

M: No, I don't think so. I thing I... I wrote some things down and I think

we've gone over everything. Uh..... nothing of any particular event. Uh/let

me see uh...... there were the usual things. I I.... gou grow up to

discover differences of people. Uh I ce remaember my-;? first reaction,

uh/feeling surprised. A guy I..... knew him casually and can't even remember

his name)but we were relatively ~itv 5 Probably had class together

back in my sop nore year, said something to him one day and he said "Oh yeah,

I spent five years at Rayford". He was a northwest Florida boy l_ al_ o\

I, 1- )\ o\ ad- k-t wi.fferent. He got involved in a knife fight

with somebody and ended up y know,/atmgee manslaughter.

7. That brings

up another point. There were/alligator had roiS A c~v_ they called
d4 jook notes. YA know what people were doing andly' know around recreational

or party-time type stuff. But the word was spelled j-o-o-k, always was and

to the best of my knowledge the word j.... jook, which is now.....

J: Juke?

M: It was now called /uke.

AL 32AB -57-

Tape B

J: Yeah.

M: That's J-u-k-e by journalist$north of the Mason Dixon Line. But as far

as I know, the word j-o-o-k originated in northern Florida. It was a

name for a joint, as jook joint. It was a place that you went jooking, that

you went to drink and party.

J: I'm glad you said that because someone told me about one of these places

that was located on Waldo Ro..... no excuse me, Hawthorne Road and I asked

him how you spell that and they said "Juke, iSE in juke box". But they

don't say juke 1-t4e in juke box, they say jook as you're saying.

M: Jook. There's a jook joint and there's a juke box.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: It was only somebody north of the Mason Dixon Line writing in northern journals

doing it by verbal process and recognizing the southerners talk funny

anyhow. The only way you should spell it is j-u-k-e and as far as we were

concerned it was j-o-o-k and the music provided for dancing was the electric

put-the-nickle-in-and-make-your--selection and it was therefore a jook


J: Mmm hmmm.

M: And that was the place. Now the te juke joints around town out here on

N.W. 13th Street just/before well the uh.... where the new shop.... where

the shopping center is out there, there is a furniture store whose name

escapes me.

J: R E

M: Rgve, aIight. Across the street from that furniture store there was a

....... whatever was on that corner, I don't know.

J: Gas station now.


Tape B


M: Gas station now. There was p jook joint. That was out of town because

as you went out to the north you got out of town and soon you crossed the

creek down where the.......

J: Eighth Avenue?

M: Eighth Avenue.

J: Mmm hmm.

M: Boundary Street..... except there wasn't any 8th Avenue.

J: Right.
M: The creek And that was out of town. There was

one on Hawthorne Road, there was one south of...... and I can't think if it

was Blondie's......... NoW/ \~Cyal It was all around and I

can't ir the name. But uh..... jook joints were ..... and they had
jook S A .' y know and the Alligator had.... had little column about

doings, jook doings and something of this sort which was just yA knowpeople

dances and things, what happened and....... -o->, someplace around

that time they were very moralistic students someplace around here that

ran around with a bunch of uh, fire _ras_ and burned a few of these

places that have since been so nothing really happened y know,

6A burn them. I don't remember anybody ever going home to _

arson. .It was considered form uh but -y

4,c -oCJ mattered

J: Well I think we've covered.....

1: Yeah, I think JCi_ C- C .

J: A lot of topics about the university so let me just ask you one thing.

Is it 0W. that I use this research or this interview in my research?

M: Sure.

J: OA4

M: -L. 97, knowI swq syv g anything bad about anybody s......