Interview with Frances Apperson, May 31, 1978

Material Information

Interview with Frances Apperson, May 31, 1978
Apperson, Frances ( Interviewee )


Subjects / Keywords:
University of Florida Campus (General) Oral History Collection -- History ( local )


This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

Record Information

Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'University of Florida' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management:
Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license:
Resource Identifier:


This item has the following downloads:

Full Text

This Oral History is copyrighted by the Interviewee
and Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of

Copyright, 2005, University of Florida.
All rights, reserved.

This oral history may be used for research,
instruction, and private study under the provisions
of Fair Use. Fair Use is a provision of United States
Copyright Law (United States Code, Title 17, section
107) which allows limited use of copyrighted
materials under certain conditions.
Fair use limits the amount of materials that may be

For all other permissions and requests, contacat the
the University of Florida.

UF 60A

Interviewer: Steve Kerber

Interviewee: Frances Apperson

May 31, 1978 sjm

K: Today is May 3Ae>, 1978. My name is Steve Kerber and I'm going

to be recording an oral history interview with Miss Frances Ap-

person, formerly of the Univers4t of Florida library, for the University

of Florida oral history program. This interview will be taking place

in the Ford Library in the Florida State Museum. Let me start by

asking you your full name.

A: Frances Eugenia Apperson. I never use that Eugenia, though.

K: Is that your mama',s name?

A: No, my aunt's name.

K: And when did you retire from the university?

A: In July, 1975. The end of July, I'm trying to say, the end of July,

because, you know, so I could, that sort of like to get on Social

Security also, was paid through the month of July.

K: I see. And what was your title at that time?

A: Chairman of the Documents Department.

K: Were you born in Alabama?

A: Yes.

K: In what town?

A: A little town, a little community called Jones. J-O-N-E-S-.

K: In what part of the state is that?

A: Oh, forty miles south of the dead center of the state.

K: Oh. So due south, in the middle of the state.

A: Yes, A c/o, fifty miles away from Montgomery.

UF 60A

Page 2 sjm

K: And when were you born?

A: You've got that already once, in 1909.

K; I'm kind of going in a pattern that I usually try to follow.

A: June of 1909.

K: And what was your father's name?

A: Francis, with an "i". F-R-A-N-C-I-S. James Francis.

K: James Francis. How did he make his living?

A: He was a track foreman with the railroad, Southern Railroad.

K: The Southern Railroad?

A: Uh huh.

K: I see. For a long time?

A: Oh, I'd say forty years or so.

K: That's a pretty long time. And what was your mother's name?

A: Emma Belle Medley, before she married.

K: Were they both native Alabamians, or?

A: My father was a Texan, but he left there when he was around eleven,

I think. But Mama was bfam Alabama.

K: Do you have any idea how they met?

A: Well, they lived in the same community.

K: They just....I see.

A: I mean when he came, he really grew up in Alabama so they weren't

too many miles apart, living.

K: Were you an only child?

A: No, I have a sister.

K: Is she older or younger?

A: Slightly older.

UF 60A

page 3 sjm

K: And what's her name?

A: Jessie May Apperson.

K: And she still lives in Alabama?

A: That's right.

K: So you go back and spend part of your time with her.

A: That's right.

K: Did you grow up in that same small community?

A: Is all this necessary, all this ee /?/ ----- ?

K: Well, it's not necessary if you'd rather not talk about it,

A: Well, I don't mind. It just doesn't seem-

K: It's not unusual at all. Because what we usually do is talk about

someone's background and how they get-

A: Whether they're authoritative enough to give this interview.

K: Oh no, not at all. We just try and really slant this, so that

basically there's more of the personal viewpoint in it, :so that, for in-

stance, if you have family, or children or something that you have

the desire to impart this kind of information to, that the finished

product is of a little bit more value to you, than it would be other-


A: I don't mind, it's all right. I just wondered why other members of

the family had to be brought in when, I mean, you know, what was it

you asked me last?

K: The last thing I asked you was about brothers and sisters.

A: Well, I have one sister, but-

K: Okay, and see, but what we do then is we follow up, youknow, try to

trace your education, where you went to school, things of this sort,

UF 60A

Page 4 sjm

which you did go over in the first interview.

A: This, it's almost like a foster brother in the family who was never

adopted by my parents, but as a baby, well, actually about four or

five year old, he grew up with us, and much younger than my sister

and I, but he, his children are like our grandchildren.

K: I see. So there were really the three of you, then, growing up together.

A: Well, in a sense.

K: In a sense,,because he never was adopted, and he was more like a

son to my sister now, because she's been with him longer than my parents

had, I mean they died, he still was with us, still h agnd

K: Okay, well, let me ask you then about school. You went to the grade

school and -

A: Grade school in Jones, and high school in Dallas County High School,

the first public high school in the state, I think they said, and I

don't mean I was the first one, but that was, the school was the first

one in the state, the first public high school in the state. The

building is still basically the same with more added of course. And

then I went to Alabama College and got my degree there, A.B. But

I went a year to the University of Alabama, a year and a summer and

did some graduate work, and got introduced to library science, and

then I went to Emory for my Library Seience degree.

K: Okay, let me get the chronology straight. You went for four years

as an undergraduate?

A: To Alabama College, and then a year and a summer t8 University of


K: And when would that have been?

UF 60A

Page 5 sjm

A: Well, now, in between, altogether, I taught five years, but in

between, I went to the University of Alabama, I guess it was '32-

'33, and then to Emory, '35-'36.

K: And in between you were teaching school?

A: Yes.

K: Back in your home town or where?

A: No, it was in my county, and then in another county.

K: Were you teaching several grades together, or?

A: No, high school, well, the first year, I did teach, I think it was

third and fourth, you know, different parts of each class, you know.

And, but the other years it was high school.

K: Did you teach several subjects, or English?

A: English and what else...history and Spanish and tried Latin once, be-

cause I was the only one there that had some so, you know how it is in

a small school. I don't mean all those subjects in one place, but

I mean altogether.

K: At varggf times.

A: English, nearly always.

K: And then you grew tired of teaching?

A: Yeah. I never did like it ,really. And got interested in library

K: Was that interest just caused by your familiarity with books, or did
someone try to interest you in it?

A: I guess just-

K: Just looking for an alternate' career.

A: Uh huh, and interested in books, I guess that was it, I don't remember

UF 60A

Page 6 sjm

any special...

K: And was there any special reason you chose to go to Emory?

A: Well, I knew that I didn't want to go very far away at that time

there were only three in the south, accredited library schools,

North Carolina, Peabody and Emory. And I didn't want to go to

Peabody and I thought that North Carolina was a little farther

away than I wanted to go, so I went to Atlanta to Emory. I preferred

Emory to, really preferred it to Peabody.

K: Had you known anybody that had gone to Emory before?

A; No.

K: You just sized up the situation and decided to go.

A: Well, yes, and I just thought it would be a, I don't know, I

had a place, except, I don't think, if North Carolina University

of North Carolina school had been here, I might have selected that,

but I ruled out Peabody somehow, I thought of it mostly as a school

library, it wasn't necessary, but anyway, that was my idea,

and I was more interested in general, well, college university library


K: So you lived in Atlanta for a year then?

A: A school year.

K: Yeah. And you graduated at what time of the year?

A: 1936 in the spring.

K: In the spring. And then where did you go?

A: To the University of Tennessee at Knoxville as a cataloger, the

one thing, the last thing I said I wanted to be.

UF 60A

Page 7 sjm

K: That was your least favorite Q '7" ?

A: You know, they asked for preferences before you graduate, and so

I had said, reference and circulation and cataloging third. And

so the job that was offered me at the University of Tennessee was

cataloging and I got a eae from the head librarian offering me

on the dean's recommendation from Emory, see but I didn't realize

that I was supposed to go to a school library in the fall, and

right on the edge of the state, West Point, I think, no I don't

remember now, but anyway one of the schools-

K: In Georgia or Tennessee?

A: It was Georgia or Alabama line, but I'm not sure which state now.

K: Which side it was on.

A: And I was to go there, but I had not told the school, Emory, I mean,

that I had the place and I had not, I still had a month before

had to sign a contract or anything and when I got the UhvG why it

was only for ten months and it was for cataloging, and I still pre-

ferred Uiversity library work I thought to get started in that, the

school ---c -- so I accepted it, even though Knoxville seemed

like a long way from Alabama at the time. And then that ten months

developed into six years, well, six and a half years.

K: But you initially obtained the position because of the recommendation

of your-

A: Oh yes, I never, I didn't I(QoJ AOh4 1 6 611 1

K: They came to you, in other words.

A: The same, same thing when I came here, too, that's right.

K: O.K. Was your degree from Emory an M.L.S.? Is that what they called

UF 60A

Page 8 sjm


A: No, at that time it was a B., it wasn't an S., it was a Bachelor

of Arts in Library Science, B.A.L.S. is what it was at that time.

K: I see.

A: Now, the one year which means three more months usually to get your

masters, but at that time it was bachelor's.

K: How long did you stay in Knoxville, then?

A: From the, from 1936 September to 1943 February, through February

of 43.

K: And I take it you got out of-

A: Six and a half years.

K: I takelyou got out of cataloging and into-

A: Well, I had been cataloging five years, I liked all right, I think

it's a very good beginning library field, you know, because it helps

you get acquainted with bibliographical, well, bibliography, you know,

and using the catalog and that sort of thing, but I was, I went into

records before I left Knoxville, and also in the summers I would sub-

stitute in the law library. I got quite a bit of variety of experience

while I was in Knoxville.

K: So you were sort of on continuing nine month appointments interspersed

with law school?

A: No, it was twelve month appointments, but when the law school, one of

the ladies would go away for the summer on vacation, and they had

to call on somebody at the main library-

K: I see.

A: And I was the person most of the time after I was there.

UF 60A

Page 9 sjm

K: So you just filled in from your regular duties?

A: That's right, three months in the summer.

K: And then you told me a second ago, that you didn't seek out the

job at the University df Florida either?

A: No, at the time, well, now indirectly I suppose I did. I thought

that I had been in that one position long enough, cataloging, you

know. And so I had written the library school that -ve. A/rs

place in reference somewhere and might be interested nearer home,

maybe. And although, I hated to leave Knoxville, I liked it very

much, but in the meantime, after that I was transferred, a slight

promotion to the reference department in the library, a vacancy ap-

peared and I was transferred to that. And that's when I, the reference

person the one head of the department, also was in charge of docu-

ments, government publications, and while I'd had an introduction

to it in library school, I never thought of that as a thing to

work with. But that's when I got interested, being afraid of them,

because when she wasn't there, I'd panic if I couldn't find some-

thing, you know, and that made me interested, so that she'd helped

me learn something more about them you know. Then.when this offer

came from here, and you see they didn't know at Emory that I had

transferred in the meantime to a reference place. And so they

had recommended me and Mr. Hill wrote me and offered me a combina-

tion of documents and cataloging and working in reference, you

know, three things. So it was a challenge to me, and it was a

promotion, I mean, you get more salary. So I came in 1943.

K: Was this a service that Emory offered to all their students?

UF 60A

Page 10 sjm

A: No, any library school, generally speaking, just like, I guess

a university department or college, if the directors of libraries

write the library schools for names of people that they would re-

commend in a field o interest, that yf_ interest and

that sort of thing. All library schools do that, not just Emory.

But of course they have to approve of you before they would recom-

mend you. And its, I suppose a director's field, it's a safer

thing than just waiting for an applicant to write.

K: You'd get someone else's opinion of the applicant rather than just

the applicant.

A: That's right.

K: So you weren't dissatisfied at all with Tennessee, it was just..

that you received a better offer.

A: No, I hated to leave Knoxville, and I had become adapted to the

fact that I was in the reference, assistant reference librarian,

and while it was, I didn't foresee any advancement for a long time,

because the heads were there, you know, and had been for some time

and probably in few years I might have been ready to leave again,

you know, I was in assistant reference, but I liked working with

the people, and surprisingly, I liked cataloging that well, but I

enjoyed the variety of going places in the summer, you see, and not

doing, and also we had what we called split shift and, in which the

catalogers had .to help out on one night a week in reference too, so

I did that, also, all along, most of the time.

K: What kind of hours did you have to work there at that time? Was this

that you're just speaking of in addition to a regular forty hour week?

UF 60A

Page 11 McKenzie

A: Yeah, we had a forty hour week. This thing that's happened with,

since the war or something, we never, we didn't have breaks, and

that's true, here, too though, after I came to Gainesville, the

war has brought out, the wartime set up has changed, while I work-

ing, everything, I think I worked, I don't know, but I think I

worked an eight hour day I believe and then had to work half a day

Saturday. And we weren't open on Sunday in Knoxville at that time.
duV/m ya"
And so uh I don't know I guess it was forty count it up-maybe

it was-I just don't know whether it was eight hours or what. But

anyway it was a full day and we didn't have breaks but that

was the same that applied here when I came here. Same situation.

We had to work wellabout that long and it was-the breaks came when

uh ve r ,n-v e returned and when people were working in uh

factories you know-speed up production for the war and so

that was just a-just before your time but it was-since mine-when

we a regular break time morning and afternoon you know.But
I worked a regular schedule.
K: So, you were sort of close to working most hours thatA library

was open at that time-at least during the day anyway?

A: Yes, oh yes. During the day. Well, the catalog department is

never open like-the length of time-I mean that their open

length of time I y&t'/S but they're not-they're not there to
f I the
serve the public as long as the library's open likeAcirculation

and reference people are.

K: So it was Mr. Hill who was the director of the library then?

A: Mm hm, that's right.

UF 60A

rPage 12 McKenzie

K: Did .you say he sent you a telegram?

A: Oh, no, the telegram came for me to go to Knoxville the first-my

job in Knoxville was from the director, a lady.

K: So, how did he contact you then-by letter?

A: Mm hmm.I think he had also written my-the director there.

K: Mm hm. And then you applied in the same way...accepting....

A: Well, I decided to accept. He just offered it to me.

K: Mm hm. How'd you come down? Did you come by train at that time?

A: Well, there's no such thing anymore is there? I came on the city

of Miami from Birmingham to Jacksonville and um I-I left-I didn't

lose a day's time. Worked Friday night-happened to be leap year.

I worked Friday night the uh end of February, yeah, and travelled

Saturday and got to Jacksonville Sunday morning. Well, I guess
lose -
I didA one day if it was the(27th and the first day of March

was on Monday see. I travelled on the weekend including a extra

day,(29th.)When I got on in Knoxville it was fairly- wasn't as cold

as it was when I got off in Jacksonville and that surprised

me. I changed-I had friends uh relatives in Birmingham and my

family met me and I left my fur coat with them cause I was goino

to Florida. But when I got to Jacksonville I still had a winter coat

on though. When I got there it was 18 degrees. _we&, j t. l,',

K: My goodness.

UF 60A

Page 13 McKenzie

A: The coldest day they'had the whole year and frozen and I'd been

in Knoxville and used to cold weather up there so that was quite

a setback because the next week it was kinda weather you'd write

home about -spring day.

K: Was this the first time you had ever been in Florida?

A: Yes.

K: So you came over from Jacksonville on the train?
A: Mm hm, city of Miami A Birmingham to Jacksonville and then I uh-

my that's changed. That was when they switched the cars and it

was full of soldiers -it always was ever time I went home or

back you know, at that time the uh I think I had to sleep in

the club car. There wadn't any-there was s'posed to be sleeping

reservations but you just had to sleep wherever you could one.

Cause that was during the war, you see, 1943. That was before your

time, wasn't it Steve?

K: About 5 years, yeah. Heh heh.

A: Well, it was some time.

K: What were your initial impressions of Gainesville, getting off the


A: Well, it was so much smaller than- I couldn't tell about-just when

I got off the train-so much smaller than Knoxville that when the

Hills drove me around campus and showed me the library I was disap-


UF 60A

Page 14 McKenzie

K: Did they come to meet you?

A: Yes.

K: They did.

A: Yes at-in Gainesville; we met in Gainesville at noon and we

went across the street to eat at the cafeteria that was right

where that Nick 'n Phil is now?
K: Yes,, I know /4 you mean.

A: You know, at that time the railroad went down the....

K: The middle of the street.

A: That's right.

K: Mm bm.

A: And so uh the Hills drove me fore they took me to my room presently

drove me around the campus and uh when uh I was looking at the build-

ing and Mr. Hill said something to me like uh, "Well, that building

is not as big as it looks like." And I thought to myself, "Well, it

doesn't look big to me 'cause I had come from a bigger place." And

I think at the time when we were cataloging um there were about

in the-I'm afraid to say-I think I said that on the other tape-two

hundred and fifty thousand or a hundred and fifty thousands of

cc y(/7oAs of books here and I don't remember how many there were

at Knoxville. But uh....

K7 Probably several tons...?

UF 60A

Page 15 McKenzie

A: I think I looked that up before the last tape so I don't know

I-I shouldn't be saying what it is and what when I came here.

But it was much less, much smaller. And besides that just as the

students were leaving University of Tennessee be- for the war

the- the ones that were still eligible you see 7-LA taer- /nare

Seaeeeus because there were no girls here cause it was not coed

cept for the graduate school and law and pharmacy. So uh it was

just uh um the air corps had the cadets here and they'd march to

classes and wear uniforms and all and they were-except for the 4Fs

-you know what the 4Fs were-those were the only boys that-the only

students in townand it seemed very little-around a thousand or so

you know.

K: sMm hm.

A: And uh I don't know how many'd left in Knoxville but, of course,

it was uh two years before the war wouldvbe over and it was that

way until the end of the war. But by the end of the war it was
Svooy( 7"/
such a contrast in 1947 when we started PnluSAroct V g'S and

made it coed and when last year 'd see student boys on the campus

this year you'd see families, children,mothers,and fathers.You

know they had the barracks out at uh what's ___ now- I mean that

location near the air base.

K: Yes, north-south bpaj, uh huh.

UF 60A

Page 16 McKenzie

A: The university, of course, they had during the war they had the

Air Force there -I mean the uh Alachua County Air Force, I guess,

air field. But after the war the university rented some of the


K: Mm hmm.

A: Includingm -ho_ l-'r ( rdel and we had some material there. But

they also had barracks for the students that had families --_ _

single ones either until they could get the Fllfet Villages

set up-they were transported from some other place-I don't know

wherebut they were-you don't know about Flavets except that-
FlaVet 3, do you?

K: I-I came after the first two had been torn down.

A: Yes, well they were-there were three of them; one in a orange grove

it's no more either. I mean the orange grove whereabout the area

where the student uh where the campus bookstore was-over toward the

temporary building and then one, that was the first one; the second

one was across from P.K. soir- ,

K: Mm hmm.

A: And the third one, and the third one was the only two-story one and

you know -; a 7r;,--- 4 ^ rf t i/e'-.r

K: Let me back up a second now uh coming in with the Hills from down-

town Gainesville out to the campus do you remember if there were mostly

just homes along each side of University Avenue?

UF 60A

Page 17 McKenzie

A: There were.

K: Were there any businesses...;

A: There were.

K: That you recall?

A: There were -mostly homes.

K: Mostly private residences?

A: As I recall. And fraternities down the last lot.

K: Uh huh.

A: You know the corner where uh Flagler which is now the Holiday Inn
where it is was t uh Pike house.

K: Mm Hm.

A: And across the street where the fillin station is was SAE.

K: Mm hm.

A: And up next to it goin toward town was another one. I don't remember

what. And then next to the Pike house was I think another one. And

then Mrs. Benton's home she was now right next door to where

I live round the corner. But the-there was several fraternities and

uh in the block on -two blocks I guess- off and on. And residences,

old residences and all the way-nearly all the way to town it seems

to me.

K: So it was fairly well built up?

A: Yes.

K: Did you come in what was then supposed to be the main entrance to

the university which is now all blocked up there at the corner of

UF 60A

Page 18 McKenzie

'13th and University or was that still a driveway at that time?

A: I don't think that...oh....

K: Over there by Bryan Hall?

A: Uh yes I believe that's where we did come in 'cause it was uh it

wasn't blocked at the time. I'm not sure where we came in.

K: Mm hm. But they took you around campus?

A: Yes and mostly to see the library from outside. We didn't go in


K: So that was mostly just sightseeing?

A: That's right.

K: And then they took you back to the hotel-or where did you stay?

A: Well, I had already made arrangements I suppose they had made temp-

orary arrangements I forgot but anyway I stayed there for-till I

got an apartment five years later.

K: Mm hm.

A: When I go off to som lace temporarily I seem to stay. Um that was

just two blocks from work so uh if you know where Mr.

Lives it's across the street from him on Southwest ist Avenue
now ."sed to be Union Street.

K: I see.

A: Up the street from where Dr. Richard Anderson's uh office and somebody

else's is.

K: So then you came to work that following Monday?

-UF 60A

Page 19 McKenzie

A: The next day-Monday. I arrived on Sunday and started working


K: To whom did you report? Do you remember? To Mr. Hill?

A: Well, Miss ct//Y 61 5A I Miss Nell '/rur4t o, was uh the head

of the catalog departmentand that was the department I was offic-

ially in even though I was supposed to be part-time records and

A 'r-J/ yc ,'/ 1'/ oand cataloging both. And handling the documents

in the catalog-you know, cataloging the documents.

K: Mm hm.

A: And so um Miss jfrryir was uh besides being head of the cat-

alog department I think she was uh working with special funds or
special collections I mean a grant had been given to us-to the

university. I'm not sure, you might look up that. Anyway, she

was later when Mr. Hill kind of helped-uh left within a few months

in fact. She was acting librarian for two years.

K: I see.

A: And uh then well she was succeeded by -she still stayed in catalog-

ing and /, e.C/ ---- Ic, ,.. r f-. '. .

,',tnfeJ and then after in- for a few months in 1947again uh Miss Prince,

Lillie Prince,acted in the interim when Miss //fry- ,r left to

go to Atlanta.

K: Mm hm.

A: She-shebt D r. Tigert wntd a mn

.^^ ''/but Dr. Tigert wanted a man.

UF 60A
Page 20

K: Mm hm.

A: So....

K: That's always been the-the stumbling block....Yes....

A: Yes, well that was part-I mean that was it I think.

K: Mm hm.

A; And so uh then Mr. West came, Stanley West came, in the fall of

1q47 I believe and he uh had to-at that time he had to get the

budget and do any reorganization he was going to right away you

know to get uh the budget. So he-there was several

all small departments you know and he combined several and made

-he made uh -ocuc,_( ____ or eastes uh I better back trau.J

after a few months ias released from the catalog department and

just did records and documents except that I still had to catalog

the documents you see. So I was always behind naturally.

K: Mm hm.

A: And then the person whbwas head of records had left a few months

before to go in the WAVES and then within two years the person

who was acting in her place left so I was the acting once removed

reference librarian you know.

K: Mm hm.

A: As well as being in charge of the documents.Then that's-that's when

Mr. uh that's before Mr. West came and he-he reorganized. He putla

some of the smaller ones together. He made-he made uh separate

UF 60A

Page 21 McKenzie

documents and periodicals combining 'em and made serials depart-
ment and $W& uh pu9referenc~eith uh ----_

I think with uh --------- reference and bibliography and uh

then in nineteen uh that was in '47 or eight-then in 1955 we re-

organized and uh documents again was a separate thing. It

was really separate-not much so before ^ &5c ^? 91 SVc

e 64/, ,eiC, 7 P,.C was separate depart-

ment and from then on till now.
a system
K: Did you think either one of those wasAbetter than the previous


A: Well I-I preferred the documents being separate for the simple

reason it was so much stufso to speak in both documents and peri-

iodicals it just seems like combining all was a lot. Anyway,

:C didn't want it be done but I-in first place but

then I don't know that I was keen about the change vhm oNvc. /r

/ was more efficient. At least somebody

S'fn'oC 0was made into acquisitions ard c _._

and uh so was periodicals /4-&), _\a, (/1_ C Bcatalogui(jc

and other acquisitions and uh reference was made-reference and

bibliography. Part of the set up you see of the new building in

1950 was uh in that little bibliography room where the general

reference "5/J" L1//'ob. /" d and' specialized reading rooms

you know of the reference -.-- *,,'.---. -

UF 60A

Page 22 McKenzie

K: Um when you first arrived did anyone-and went to work-did anyone

give you any kind of a real orientation to the library or to the

university or did they just put you to work and say, "This is what

we want you to do."?

A: 7/- / -e wo0.

K: Did they uh give at that time any well, substantial benefits be-

sides just your straight salary, were there any kinds....

A: We at that time....

K: Of benefits?

A: We at that time-I think we had a choice of going on the state

pension plan.

K: Mm hm.

A: Uh but shortly after that and I don't know when people that came

had to take it. Now uh there were two kinds of pensions. The one

the professional staff had and and then the one that the clerical

people had. Now I don't know what the difference-I mean I-we didn't

have a choice of whether we take the state plan of that I don't

think. We had a choice of whether we wanted to take any or not when

I first came but after that it was automatic.. And then they had

several plans uh through the years they've had several plans and one

of them was as I recall, Plan D which had for awhile cause it you

could uh um retire oh I think it was 50 years of age and have so

UF 60A

Page 23 McKenzie

many years of service you know and uh then later thyeb'i1ed-us

S"le and I was still fifty -

ZJ46 so I changed you know and uh the last plan was uh one in

which social security was added to it regular pension plan and then

uh I took that-I selected that because uh well I hadn't been want-

ing to be on social security particularly because I thought that I

might leave before I was 62.

K: Mm hm.

A: Since I didn't j,'./ .-'. c. i A' i .'T,:C .,/

"1L- 'is 71e co,o/ ,o -/,4/ /A, believe people have to do that

now I'm not sure.

K: Mm hm.

A: Uh....

K: Do you mind telling me as compared to Tennessee what they offered

you at first? What salary you made?

A: I think I came here for eighteen. LLd .---

K: A year?

A: And I was getting-I don't know whether it was fifteen hundred or

sixteen hundred and uh you see that was uh before the t7T//io_ __

K: Mm hm. I suppose that would a been a pretty good ....

A: Course since then-not too long afterwards in fact u yei4yn-woulda /lavce

been getting more than I came here for.

UF 60A

Page 24 McKenzie

K: Hah hah hah ha.Now, you said when we were talking about Tennessee

a few minutes ago that the -the working hours were really a lot

more than just uh the eight hours that you....

A: Well, I don't-I mean-it was a

K:, / /,/_ of. .*

A: cf- y It was beArfg in the catalog department except

for the night a week we had to work-we might have had to work in


K: Mm hm.

A: I had some of that schedule.

K: Mm hm.

A: Was ust day time work. I don't remember the number of hours but

when I was in reference now uh I think we always had to work a

half a day Saturday. Well, that was true when we came-when I was

in Gainesville at first-it's beenchanging your schedule and not

having to work on Saturdays or something-it was new after I came.

But uh when I when I was in reference then a year uh in reference

in Knoxville I'd uh always had to work either Saturday morning or

Saturday afternoon.It was a ever Saturday thing.

K: Mm hm.

A: And uh but I had a little compensation in a way cause it was some

wa i C /< 0 A) /afternoon and we had to two

of us cover the schedule plus one _a____ _o_,___ Sso we

had to divide ourselves. I think I worked two nights a week

UF 60A

Page 25 McKenzie

because of that you see. Five nights and two of us.

K: Mm hm. Do you remember when you first came here what the-

the general hours the library was open were-just roughly?

Was-was it as late as 11 at night?
A: Uh um.oh I don't believe so.I would guess rO but I'm not sure. I
might be contradiction something A said in the other one.

K: No, I don't think so...

A: I don't know...

K: I don't think so, in fact, I don't think you really all talked

about that.

A: Um I 'm wanderin too much probably for the-for the tape....

K: Oh no, not at all. I'm-the only purpose of the questions is to

just possibly help stimulate someone's memory. There's no set


A: As far as I know as as I recall....

K: Mm hm...?

A: There was no Sunday schedule or if there was it was just the cir-

culation people open for the public.Now uh it was after Mr. West

came here that uh that regular schedule for reference people on


K: Mm hm.

UF 60A

Page 26 McKenzie

A: And uh that was still before the new building was -before the

Library East was 19 1//4b!4 Library East was THE library

and it was enlarged in 1950. I guess it was before that time)

and um I think 10 o'clock probably was the time the library

-that was it in Knoxville as far as I recall and um I'm not sure

about what the hours used to be here in the beginning cause um

I had to work nights and "__ 10 sounds


K: Could you tell me the physical lay-out of that original library

building which is now the southern part of-of Library East....

A: Yes....

K: When you first came?

A: When-when you go into uh the building,Library East....

K: Down the walkway?

A: Uh...

K: From Library West?

A: Uh go-uh yes. You go there, you're going into new part- you turn right

at the-the place there that uh um that little reading room is? To the

right-all of that is-was our walls. If you go up to the second floor

you see that painting on the wall-that's the outer wall. And uh....

K: Oh, so they even extended the face of the library building to the

UF 60A

Page 27 McKenzie


A: Uh, well-that's...

K: Towards that Italian garden area? In 1950?

A: No, not to the west, that's the part that's old.

K: That's the part that's old? Okay.

A: If you look at the roof you'd see that where it's different I

think. All the stacks were new.

K: Mm hm.

A: Uh I could show ya but uh I have- I uh tell ya I made uh-I wrote

a article for the library newsletter that uh before I retired

telling where things were)and we had a little diagram but uh the

outer wall is upstairs and down of course is that uh picture....

K: Mm hm.

A: In the humanities room on the second floor and down.And if you

notice the wall of that room on the same room on the east....

K: Mm hm.

A: It has windows that don't open into any place-that's the outer wall you


K: Uh huh.

A: And those offices at the end of the. room were-were there. As well

as goin upstairs to the those upper rooms that lead up to the 4th

floor. Now I'm talking about the south end only where there are

UF 60A

Page 28 McKenzie

K: So there were three floors?
A: UhAa partial floor where the fourth floor is, you see.

K: I see.

A: But that's at-not at the end where you-where the elevators are

now but the other end.

K: Right.

A: It was-it's /lrei rs4v. We only had two reading rooms-one first

floor and one second floor and five stack levels the size of the
browsing room that's in Latin America / -you know where that


K: Yes, I do.

A: Okay.That's the size of the stack.

K: Mm hm.

A: YV_ i 7rli- 0v o- 7VeI.C

K: Mm hm.

A: And uh circulation you see was in front of that browsing area-that's

where they worked. And catalogin:was back of it-beyond that eg wall

offices there now you know....

K: So, the main entrance then at that time was on the south end of the

building-towards Peabody?

A: Yes. Where there's statuesz.

K: President Murphree's statue?

UF 60A

Page 29 McKenzie

A: There were two-there were really two. One facing the south and one

facing the west I guess. And they're still there.But you don't

use them.

K: Yes, they're closed up.

A: By the two restrooms you know.

K: So there were two entrances at that south corner?

A: Yes, that's right. And uh those old marble steps they're the

main stairway you see. And the only elevator we had was- was the

one-and it's still in the old-the old Bryan Hall. That that uh

elevator in the old law building-Bryan Hall?

K: Oh, oh-they moved that from the library to Bryan Hall?

A: Uh huh. Gave it to them or did something.Anyway when we got this

new building in 1950 that's -that thing is still going.But uh

that was the elevator and it was located to the right of the

area that goes into that Latin America browsing section-little

alcove, that's where the elevator was.

K: I see.

A: And it-as I say it included only 5 stacks. Achoo! Achoo!

K: Gesunheit. Now uh....

A: And well...

K: Go ahead.

A: That's all, I think that...

K: I was just going to ask you if that was used exclusively for the

UF 60A

Page 30 McKenzie

library staff and for moving materials or whether they-uh the

elevator could be used by students at that time?


K: I was going to ask you how long the closed stack policy persist-

ed-I- think it lasted quite a long time, didn't it?

A: Yes, I think it was a trend in the whole nation about the tim we

changedjand I don't know exactly when but uh sometime during uh

Mr. West's uh tenure here. Probably around the time the new build-

ing-that is, the addition to the-to the Library East was made.

That was-you see it doubled th the space was double and we had read-

ing rooms in the different fields and at first it was limited-

the stacks were limited to graduate students. And I'm not sure

about 0) -$c- 7a 7t4?

from the beginning, I don't remember. But then they uh made open

stacks to everybody and I don't -I don't know exactly when. But

r think before this uh Library West was built.

K: They were open by that time?

A: Mmi hm. But of course at that time they also tried to keep under-
graduates in Library East andAgraduate collection in Library West

but I understand they combining them now just both places.

K: Mm hm.Um, what was I...? :7.. /
/ /

UF 60A

"Page 31 McKenzie

A: When they moved- when the new building was 'enlarged, I mean the

old building was enlarged, the stacks-stack area was used for

for sometnM of the department including documents although we

had on the second floor where we.had uh shelving in the stacks

and we had our uh catalog for the uh the documents out front

Sr'L/4 / k'.4k)'Z ^e>0n,

work hie was in-the: stacks so was and exchange and

so was binding even though we had 7 A eiA) i. //Vr. Z-Z7
I / j// / U
"A"* ,r..' windows -r'O_ everybody.

K: So they just pushed you back into the...?

A: Well, it was not necessary-I mean it just seemed logical for the

physical arrangement to be hEgIn the social sciences but they'd

had about three offices like that.

K: Mm hm. I was going to ask you how they handled the uh uh-acquisition

is not the word I want to use but how they obtained the books for

the students under this system of closed stacks. How did you get a

book as a student.when you knew what you wanted?

A: They had uh the pages go from the circulation desk to get them.

K: I see, they just sent them up into the stacks according to what-

ever the student asked for?

A: Well, they didn't have-sometimes I think they did have somebody

waiting in the Sadck cO -we didn't use that uh book lift as much

UF 60A

Page 32 McKenzie

as it was planned to use I don't think.So uh we just go up on

the circulation desk back there to get it.

K: So, it must have been very time consuming?

A: Well, yes. I guess it was. I don't remember when the old stacks

came really.

K: Uh huh. Was uh there a temporary building outside of Library East

when you first got there....

A: Yes.

K: Or was that built during the war, but after you got there?

A: I think it was there when I first came. It was the University

College collection-reading room. And uh except for this uh one

building I- with its limitations I told you that was a part of

the library there was an entrance from the first floor across

to it you see.

K: It was connected?

A: Yes, it was connected by y alcof t/

K: So, you could go from old Library East into that without going


A: That's right.
K: And that housed all the books that were used in the comprehensive

course work?

UF 60A

Page 33 McKenzie

A: I'm not sure whether it housed them all but it-that was where they-

most of them anyway and that's where they uh was there for study

hall or reading room...

K: Mm hm.

A: And I suppose it housed them all. It seems so small now but maybe

it did. And there was hope after our building was doubled- more

than doubled its size building was built in 1950. That's -that

could be torn down and show the building up.

K: Mm hm.

A: But it wasn't until -I don't know-many years later you see the

architecture uh people took it over and uh it was their designing

room or some-they uh had a name for it but I forgot what-the gal-

lery I think they called it....

K: Gallery?

A: I've forgotten what they called it but anyway they used it until

their building was built, see? So the-the poor Library East never

did really get shown off while it was at its best because of that

wooden temporary building there in front of it for so long.

K: Was that wooden building between Anderson and uh later Matherly

at-in existence at the time you came?

A: No, no. Oh, oh, excuse me. I don't recall. I think so. I think

all of these temporary wooden buildings were probably built during

UF 60A

Page 34 McKenzie

the war and uh I don't remember which ones were there when I

came here. I think that was....

K: Were there branch libraries in 1943?

A: Yes, there was an education library and uh law.

K: Which would have been in Bryan Hall?

A: Yes. And uh Chemistry, I think had one then. Mmm, I believe that's


K: Do you remember where chemistry would have been?

A: It was the same building that Chemistry Department's in now.

K: Okay.

A: I: think ....

K: In-in Leigh Hall?

A: Yes.

K: Okay.

A: Uh there musta been another one, but I can't recall....

K: Agriculture?

A: Oh, yes! That's right.That was the other one. It was a bigger one

of course including' experiment station material. The Ag College

and the uh Education Library and it was not called the Education

Library at the time I don't believe -Curriculum Lab I think was

what it was called. And uh law and chemistry.And so these others

UF 60A

Page 35 McKenzie

have come since then.

K: Would the Agriculture library have been in Floyd then? Do you


A: Oh, it was in uh oh dear I don't know the names of all the build-

ings. But it was in Hall I think....
R I-Ps ?
K: 4e00 *

A: Uh huh.

K: Okay.

A: Up over the-on one of the upper floors on RohdHall.

K: I see.

A: Isn't that the one across from uh uh....

K: From Newell?

A: Yes

K: Uh huh. From the uh what they used to call the Agricultural Ex-

perimental Station Building.

A: Yes, yes. That's right.

K: That's right. I see. Um at the time that-that you got here was it

uh did anyone ever suggest to you as a young librarian that it

would be prudent or uh proper not to socialize too much with the

students or the soldiers or did anyone ever take it upon them-

selves to talk about things like that?

"UF 60A

Page 36 McKenzie

A: Nooo.

K: No one ever tried to tell you nothing like that?

A: Nothing like that.

K: Uh when I was looking over theearlier interview you said some-

thing about taking part in a play with the Florida Players?

A: Oh, yes!

K: Would you tell me a little more about that?

A: Well, I was-Mammy and the Little Foxes.

K: Oh!

A: Uh there were, you know, there were-no coeds there to..

K: Was this still during the war or do you remember when?

A: I'm sure it was during the war. Well, wait a minute -it was before

the uh uh it was become- it was made a coed university in 1947, I


K: I think so.
A: So I don't know it was probably 1945-I don't -I thinkAwas after

the war but I'm not sure. And there were secretaries and the staff

and a few graduate students were the ones that were there

so they called on the rest of us. I enjoyed it but I don't con-

sider myself an actress.

K: Were you involved in any other productions in any...?

UF 60A

Page 37 McKenzie

A: No, I was asked again, Roy C/eL was the one that was coaching

the play. y he coached it when I was in The Little Foxes and I

was asked again for another one but my schedule wouldn't permit-

I don't remember what was the reason then, and what the play was

but uh I was uh- Addie,the-the Negro woman anyway in Little Foxes.

K- Where did they hold the plays at that time-in the auditorium?

A: Uh, the P.K. Yonge Auditorium, I think.

K: I see.

A: Where we had it.

K: Uh huh.

A: You see, that was at that time what's now Norman Hall.

K: Mm hm. That was the laboratory school...?

A: Yes.

K: At that time?

A: Yes. And that auditorium was good for acoustics and ; y ;i '-

and that's where we held it.

K: I see. Okay, could I ask you to just go over in an overview the-

the different jobs that you have held in the library-in other words

going from your initial job? You, yourself was against the changes....

A: Well, all along I worked....

K: In the-what they called the department?

UF 60A

Page 38 McKenzie

A: -All along I've been/\ documents wherever it has been-wherever

they have been

K: Mm hm.

A: First, when I came here it was a combination of reference and cat-

alog with the idea that I would be cataloging the documents especially.

K: Mm hm.

A: And in the reference I'd be working with documents and Se i le I P/. LI'

K: With documents aLg.idcs=L s

A: Then when I uh-then when I left cataloging-it was a combination

of reference and document.

K: Now when was that again?

A: Well, uh in a few months when uh....

K: Forty three? Forty four?

A: Yeah. I-except they-Miss L, Ow'i' said I still had to catalog uh the

year I was in the government documents Vhe Unites States documents

she said. Uh but you see we get more later A/w ..!- C~. l rl...

K: Sure, sure.

A: And then uh when the second referenceperson left maybe before that

I had/o just quit cataloging anything as you know cause I was

doin reference and documents and 2 ,.,r oc'i C c e-

SM- .about 1945 to '47.

K: Mm hm.

UF 60A

Page 39 McKenzie

A: -And then uh Mr. West came. I'm not sure whether he actually-

whether we actually started after he made the reorganization

plan and told us what he was going to do. Whether we actually

started before '48 or not-but probably not but uh 1948 was

when we -' z-- -- ?.( l ( my department consisted of

periodicals and buying and documents. And then uh in 1955 it

was just documents fg included-Latin American

and uh foreign tooaase V -i Cer ;/ A! 7// a4.yL

It' there were more of them.

K: Mm hm.

A: And from documents from then on to 19 retirement.

K: So you've really been the head of your-your document section

wherever that might be?
A: Well, yes but documents was under reference/e awhile you see

and so I wasn't chairman but a little while that time A e 7Z c.

1/ #/e 7 _7a6 vnr7 Z;.et/. One week I had to be up irculat-

ion library A C4 eoc +s r 7 & -/

Miss uh Miss (,e, was called away- no, she was in school

I think in North Carolina and the person that was actin

while she was away in the summer was called away for- for a-she

was a reference person and she was called away for a death or

something and for one week then I had to be head of circulation

UF 60A

Page 40 McKenzie

"and I-I was glad that I never-that I didn't get circulation in

my-in my uh job afi 1/l as I had put it down at Emory-

that'sne of the things I wanted and that's only because I just

didn't know about documents much.

K: Yeah. WOuld you tell me uh physically where then you have had to

work uh beginning with being up there in what-what's now Library

East in the old portion....?

A: Okay....

K: Where you always there until they opened Library West?

A: I was always in Library East but not in the same location.

K: Well, that's what I mean. What parts were you in?

A: Well, I told you the end of the-the opposite end to the mural....

K: Mm hm.

A: They had offices-was an office FA/ that floor on that

second floor was uh catalog/ department r/."'

one of us had a desk in there when I worked catalogin. Just out-

side was the desk .qg cC/ckav.4s and the catalog for document not
4it-pulic catalog The public catalog
too far from it-pblic catalog he public catalog

may outline the wall between catalogin and the reading room you

see.Double trail. Then uh the reference desk was opposite the cat-

the documents desk in that they-they /1ae/lecirculation desk

in the same room It's hard to think of just how little it was

you know....

-UF 60A

Page 41 McKenzie

K: Mm hm.

A: But uh that's all on the second floor.And then when it was-uh

combined-when it was uh.yeah combined into a serials Pot/

my office was up- you know where Miss 6-71J5 place was?

K: Yes, I do. I sure do.

A: There were three of us that had a office up there to share-a
t pcrsVN /
space. acquisitions ivt and I-ub then Dr. Bowers 5/'A

that for his uh well his spacer and his ,rbo, I guess. And any-

way it was long there I worked as chairman and then uh when we

h1/ just the documents department _r .rc/ 7 w4

back in that uh J ^r. area. The documents people were there

all the time you know after the A/ ) u/r. *

K: Mm hm.

A: But uh I was there till we moved to Library West in uh and my

office was where it is now....

K: And it's always been in that uh- that would be the southeast port-

ion of the second floor of Library West ever since it moved?

A: Yes, it's -it's the south-well, you know where it is don't ya?

K: Yes, that's the southwest corner.

A: Yes.

K: Right, yeah. Okay.

A: Did you have-well how much control did you have over hiring the

UF 60A

Page 42 McKenzie

people who worked directly for you in the time that you were

the head of your department?

A: Well, uh like the rest of the department heads we had -we made

the decisions but we always of course conferred with the head-

the director and uh I can't recall any time when I would of

wanted somebody that I couldn't get you know. And uh I say we
confirmed with the directordon professional staff but uh with

the others they would send-the office would send prospects and

now there would be-maybe some screening from the office

of desireables and undesireables but when we got to-to interview

them then we made the decision....

K: You made the final choice yourself?

A: That's right.

K: Very good. How are documents are paid for and has that changed....

A: Paid for?

K: Over the years?In other words, are they paid for out of a general

library budget that-that departments can each order so much out of?

A: They uh well the department the uh library fund is divided by de-

partments and documents was considered one of the departments you had

to have a certain amount to spend. But uh theoretically we get the

U.S. Government documents free

K: Mn hm, right.

UF 60A

Page 43 McKenzie

A: And of course it's worth-ItICs fair 0/S 1+0 them but they're free

far as the government is concerned. And then we get some-mostly -/-/e cif,.,
states wtna, /free and the foreign ones we have to-we subscribe to

the United Nations Jyr- ,,, -,,/j and uh the foreign ones we had

to buy and if it was something that uh I, felt was more ae /

-/-, a'esJ something we ought to have -- ought to have in docu-

ment I would refer it to the particular department. For instance,

Dr. Hammond was interested in English history and uh so whenever

we knew of something available we'd tell him about it and hope

that he mgIt i6 and you know we'd try to let them pay for it

if they would and .Le2 .... I J.. .G) ."/k -/Ja

w t:,o that's the way it worked.

K: And that's always the way it's been since you've been here?

A: Ahh, I don't think I recall having uch of a fund uh before Mr.

West came but I think that's when / 1 I7 / ',cIfl don't


K; Mm hm.

A: But that-I mean I don't know how -how it was handled before

cause I don't recall having any money to handle'specially by

documents fund uh before Mr. West came. We might have but you

see it would 've been in reference+ guess-sort of a combined

thing as far as um my part was concerned in reference and documents

during that time.

UF 60A

Page 44 McKenzie

K: I see. Let me ask you about the uh arrival of uh women on campus.

Were they any less inhibited about asking a documents reference

librarian for help than the men had been?

A: I don't think so.

K: Was there any difference? Just the same?

A: Don't think so, don't think so. But uh I remember J r f.a

their coming I didn't think- I just thought that it would make

the boys not as serious, hee hee hee, as they were in studying

and all. Worked out a eight but uh I sort of dreaded it to see

what would happen. Some of it-I don't know what the whole staff

felt but I think that some of them felt like I did cause you

know it had been a boys school all that time....

K: Did you encounter many uh-what shall I call them-behavior prob-

lems in the war years as far as the people who might have been

uh here for military purposes rather than just a normal run-of-


A: I don't recall during those times-during that time. But uh I

think we had more uh desecration of the books after the war and

uh immediately after and uh tearin out,you know-tearin out pages

or maybe even stealin.

UF 60A

Page 45 -McKenzie

K: M hm.
A: And I had decide-attributed that to the fact the veterans -I

don't mean all of them, of course, but whoever did it-had been in

the service where what was the governments was theirs -that they

had decide-brought that philosophy to the-with them to school.

K: Mm hm.

A: Now that was just right after the war and I noticed most of that

and it was men or women I think.

K: Mm hm.

A: But uh not any more / a A 'f,' R J //A


K: But just uh people helping themselves to...

A: Xs4 ,: more things or s more magazines -rn 1u

that sort of thing.

K: I'd like to ask you uh about some individuals-librarians or people
in the library who where here more towards the time/\you came and

see if you can identify some of them for me and by that I mean any-

thing you can tell me about them as far as what you think they

contributed to the library or anything distinctive about their


UF 60A

Page 46 McKenzie

A: I don't know, okay, if I know anything.

K: How 'bout Miss Milt# oare? She was gone before you came....

A: She was gone before I came.

K: But did you ever hear any stories about her?

A: I was aware that she was....

K: About the way she ran the library or...?

A: Well, pretty straight I've heard that. But I'll tell you-have

you had any interview with Mary young ?

K: No, we don't.

A: You should.

K: Miss Young's is still working, isn't she?

A: Yes, but she's retiring in July.

K: Is she? I'll have to tell that to Proctor then.

A: And also, you might talk to uh um Janice Hester.

K: Yes, we have an interview with her.

A: You have? Well, she musta give some opinion of Miss Milt ld

cause she....

K: Yes, she did she -she was here when Miss....

A: She was here then.

K: When Miss Milt& dbre was still here.

A: And she left and came back but Miss uh Miss Young-did too.

UF 60A

-Page 47 McKenzie

K: Mm hm.

A: After

K: Did she? I see.

A: So, uh but she was here during-Miss Milt, $ are's time and I
don't know anything firsthand about Miss Milti re but I under-

stand she was one of the people that brought uh-worked hard at

making-giving the professional-giving the library professional


K: Mm hm.
A: Faculty status. You know it didn't happen / after she was gone

and she had a big uh made a big contribution toward it.

K: Mm hm.

A: I think she was pretty strict and she was a friend of the one in

Knoxville under whom I worked and she was that way and also

brought the collection uh up and her a successor was a man I

understand sayin that it was wonderful the way she had

brought the collection up and you know....

K: Fought for it and protected it and....

A: Mm hm, mm hm. And I imagine i 4. ,-, sj

contemporaries and I imagine they __vr y pretty much alike.

K: Mm hm. How about a woman named Jane Craig?

VF 60A

Page 48 McKenzie

A: I never heard of her.

K: Never heard of her?

A: Jane Craig?

K: These are-to tell you the truth these are names that I have gotten

out of some old catalogs uh just to try and see....

A: Did it give a term-or:give heriofficial status?

K: Uh, I'm sorry this one-this one came out of somebody's interview and

they mentioned her in passing-that's what it was.In-in roughly the

time period after Miss Milt e)and so I was basically trying to

identify her. Some of these others I do have....

A: I believe Mr. Hill succeeded Miss Milt )ore and was here around

three or four years.

K: What about him? Can you tell me anything about him-what he looked


A: Mmmm, slender uh well I-I didn't know him too well but um he was

not really well when I came here and I don't think he had been

much of the time since he was working here. His wife was jxgSBg

the stabilizer and ej/r ___ was too for-during the time

she was here W.,Q0 AA L,cs /uh but he-he had a special in-
terest in history and I think it was a certain area-but\ forgotten

what it was now-which he emphasized so much you know and uh and

UP 60A

Page 49 McKenzie

just-he effi r2 1/ o' W en I came....

K: How about about a lady named Charlotte Newton? I think

she was in circulation. Did you know her?

A: Well, was she in circulation or was she-uh oh, wait a minute,

Charlotte Newton...that name is familiar)but I didn't know her

uh was she one of the ones that was uh acting as librarian-did

she get killed on lane? A plane..?

K: I-I don't know. That's entirely possible. I'm -I'm really fish-

ing here to try and get something.

A: I know I've heard of her and I know that uh Janice Hester and

/^j/;or) Young can tell ya 'bout her.

K: Mm hm.

A: Um she might have been the one that was a cataloger -that cataloged

so many things-I mean was a cataloger here so long. I'm not sure Zly7

what she was. I knew at one time but I don't just right now.

K: Mm hm. Okay.

A: But she was a -I think one of the early professional staff.

K: Mm hm. Okay. How 'bout Ida uh Creesap?

A: Creesap. She was a long time librarian of the Ag Experiment Stat-

ion Library. You should interview Janie Tyson who worked with Miss

Creesap and worked at the Ag Library for 40 years.

UF 60A

Page 50 McKenzie

K: She still retired?

A: She retired uh oh about five or six years ago.

K: But she's still here in Gainesville?

A: Yes. She's uh the Jane Lee Tyson on N.W. 13th Street. She was

one of the people who came up from -h& she hadn't had a lot

of training but on-th-job-training and she was uh she probably

knew that Agriculture Library inside and out and worked a long

time with Miss Cresap.

K: Mm hm.

A: So she would know Miss Cresap was a very attractive, meticulous,

uh person and I don't know what kind of administrator she was but

she from having been there so long she probably knew the collection

-and I think she started the history of the university but I'm

not sure.

K: Mm hm.

A: Certainly a history of the university -of the Ag Library.Janie

could tell you that.

K: Okay, we'll have to talk to her. Now, you mentioned Margaret Dewer,

is it, before?

A: Yes, Margaret Dewer was head of circulation when uh shortly after

I came here. She was assistant head and the person that was here

UF 60A

Page 51 McKenzie

left oh Ui1. a few months after I came and uh she was head

of that for a year-for 0 years I guess she- she retired in-

just about when Mr. Hara came. I mean she was retire at that

time. And is now at uh Winter Park. Shwas-she went to the

uh Rollins College Library and is there in reference. Then she

retired from there and went across the street into the public

library. pdftU4,/ ,2t is working part time, I don't think

she's working full time. But anyway uh she's a very attractive

lady and was working her before I came in circulation.You know
she was here so she / give you some information.

K: Did she serve as acting director for a time?

A: No. I don't tok so.

K: Do you remember if she was considered for the director's ...?
A: I don't think soAl don't know. I don't believe she was. The

only-so far as I know, the only one considered for director's

job of the ladies would've been Margaret Knox .-/e,

K: Mm hm.Yes. Do you remember a woman named Naomi Edwards?

A: Yes.

K: In reference?

A: She was in reference. She was first in uh I think periodicals

ef!5 -r n ,/ excd/n e when I first came here. But when

UF 60A

Page 52 McKenzie

an reorganization she was made head of reference and uh I

don't know how many years she was here but -ten or so. She

came when I did, just about a month ahead of me.

K: Mm hm.

A: And uh I don't remember when she left but uh one of the ex-

citements of the library staff was the fact that she married

one of her assistants.

K: Oh, really?

A: Mm hm. And uh she-it was a surprise. Well, I mean we -we

knew the romance was blossoming)but somehow it was a sur-

prise that it was blossoming.

K: Mm hm.

A: And they eventually-I don't know when she quit-I guess she

quit when she-right after she married and went to the $.e

Scocl system for awhile and then they left here and went to Calif-

ornia-University of California at Berkeley. I hear from her

at Christmas time. They have retired from there and gone to

her home that she inherited in uh Missouri. But she was a

lovely person and she was smart. I don't know uh what kind

of administrator she was-pretty good I guess in reference.

But uh she was a scholarly type and uh I hated it when she left

UF 60A

Page 53 McKenzie

here She married Ray Held.

K: H-E-L-D?

A: Uh huh.

K; Uh huh.And they-and they would have...?

A: Social sciences librarian in the you know the room....

K: Uh huh. You couldn't

A: --__ reading room south? Social sciences and general biblio-


K: Mm hm.

A: Humanities. Well, he was social sciences and she was head of the

reference uh....

K: And you couldn't have two married people....

A: Oh!

K: In the same department at that time?

A: Oh, oh. I don't know .I couldn't-I-uh well, I guess that was it.

_} e Bvh eten; ssaiN idea was in effect ----- .

I don't remember when she quit but I guess pretty soon after she

married-right-maybe immediately but ...

K: Mm hm.

A: She was working' in the school system for awhile and he stayed on

UP 60A

Page 54 McKenzie

Sf until they both left and went to California.

See they couldn't quit-they were both an assistant there.

He was teaching' I think library science and she wascatalogin'

music books.

K: Now I think you mentioned Vivian Prince once before?

A: Yes. She-she came about a month after I did and she retired

-this group that we're talking' about -about all my contempor-

aries, I guess- she retired first. And uh she had been on leave

two different times. Once to go to Pakistan-East Pakistan-

she was-she's a very smart lady. She might have been considered at

one time as a-as a ....

K: Director?

A: Director. But uh it was- if so it was at the time that Miss
Bommel was here when Dr. Tigert wanted a man so I doubt that

it was any length of time. But she-she acted as -in the interim

of 'bout two-three months I think. Miss Bommel asked that she

be appointed after she left for-until Mr.-'til they decided on

the man, Mr. West.

K: Mm hm.

A: But uh she uh is uh aaS going to East Pakistan and back. Bhe was

UF 60A

Page 55 McKenzie

.on leave from _ae at that time. She went-... seems to me she

was on leave again when she went to uh university of uh Calif-

ornia and-ah Berkeley I believe for awhile. And she came back

and then when she retired she went or resigned-I think it was

retirement she went to the university of -of S Oi )


K: Mm hm.

A: And that's -and she's retired from there and she's staying out

at California now -thhfije family /y/es E-st and she comes

occasionally to see uh friends here, uh her former bo'rScmae /

Miss McNair who is still a library assistant.

K: Mm hm.

A: She's lzipp /< fat very smart lady. She's a capable person.

She's head of catalogin'.

K: Mm hm.

A: Technical processes ( c-'.', 3 .-/, /

K: How 'bout Mr. West now. Stanley West. What kind of a library

director was he?

A: Well, he was a genial sort and uh I think sympathetic and uh

I don't know how to uh....

K: Did he spend a lot of time in the library and checking on things

and paying attention to detail?

A: Yes, he spent a lot of-he spent a lot of time in the library. He

UF 60A

Page 56 McKenzie

would uh-I think you could feel uh free to go see him any

time you wanted to. I mean he wasn't aloof.

K: Mm hm.

A: Which is a good //" "' ....

K: Surely.

A: And uh he uh I think consulted other people 7 ',- /tA /c /

uh I don't know what else to say.

K: Did he know-did he know the people who were working for him? Did

he make it a point to know the librarians and the staff or did he


A: Well, he was friendly enough.

K: Know the department heads?

A: Well, uh I don't know

K: Would you know?

A: I think he was friendly enough to anyone who wanted to come into

see him but I'm not sure how well he knew them --

K: Did-do you think he did a fairly good job in getting funding for

the library....

A: Yes I think he probably did....

K: From the administration?

UF 60A

Page 57 'McKenzie

A: I-I think the division of the funds into departments was uh

you know not just the library C r i.n but the departments

was probably .' for him while he was here.

K: Mm hmm.

A: You know.I think it was....

K: His plan.

A: LS /// &(/fS / L \

He had been a law student here and graduated in law and uh had been
c hhe
in service and"came back from the service and ,/iec e,/'/iLr !,

job sT ,ie. c,-"- _

K: So he hadn't worked here as a librarian at all before ....

A: Only as a student assistant. He-he had worked at Columbia as a

librarian as a uh I think in personnel or something .

K: Mm hm.

A: But he had not worked here except as a student assistanfn law

I think.

K: How about Mr. Yoiu --Julian Yovig?

A: Well, he was uh kindly, shy person that people liked when they

knew him,you know, but he-he was very shy and uh I believe you

call 'em sort of uh recluse and just interested in his

UF 60A

Page 58 McKenzie

c(oiet-on-rL4 0 A5// l,
,tlrC i& S-r' -. // is c'c/4?5j/i'j 'e, 6et ri/^rv i4'o'' y
K: I understand he frequently stayed in the library overnight? r

A: I don't know about that.

K: Stayed ...?

A: He might have. I wouldn't be surprised but I didn't know that.

I-I would be surprised if they'd let him stay-if they knew it.

K: Mm hm. Was uh wasn't the Yo-A Collection at first on the first

floor over in Library East, do you remember that?

A: Yes, it was. They made that when they enlarged the building. That

was about the time that they uh I guess that he could bring his
-A,& -46P
collection here. Seems to me he had some uh uh po ,l stack

level put there. Part that they-uh I don't know. I hadn't been

over there lately I but the first floor that has-that used to

have the audio-visual aids, you know, where they all were?

K: Mm hmm.

A: That was the Library of Florida History there.

K: In the back?

A: Yes.

K: Of the building?

AI You know where I'm talking' about?

UF 60A

Page 59 McKenzie

K: Yes, I do. But you think before that he was ....upstairs?

A: I-I think before that he was working on a collection and he

was waiting for some place to put it ttil this building was
finished. And I'm not sure but seems to meAhe had up in the

in the top stack level-I know he had the privelege of collect-

ing the gh stack level that we had was-included the documents

andthe uh the federal documents -ones that .._,-,_ cataloged

the Florida ,,fc- '',,' A ,',hn./ ///! /r?',c,

$ >,/ / 'and a wide cage which had Floridiana wherever we had a Floridi-

ana ....

K: Mm hm.

A: Including' a vertical file of L. r/ and he had the privilege

of collection' anything a' '",: had the privi-

lege of takin' any of that ( the Florida section to put with

what his collection was to be.

K: Mm hm.

A: You know?

K: Just to bring it all together under the <'i,?^/It, of the Florida


A: Uh huh.

UF 60A

Page 60 McKenzie

K: 'Uh huh.

A: So....

K: I think-I think you must be right 'cause I think he must have

come before '49-'50 when ....

A: I-I know where he was working Had his collection! I believe I

do. He was working' on it over at the law building They gave

him some space over there I do believe.uh huh. I don't know

how to check on the accuracy of that but I think that's a

fact. Maybe Frank McCoy could tell you that 'cause he's been a-

round a long time at the law school.

K: Well, Dr. Proctor may know himself.

A: Yeah, he probably does.

K: Over....

A: Well, anyway that's where he was working' on-on this collection.

K: Over the time that you have been here at the university did any

of the presidents ever take the trouble to come to the-the/ocu-

ments department?

A: I don't-recall any of them.

K: Can you remember any of the higher university officials bothering

to do that?

A: Well, some of the professors have but I don't know of any ....

K: But not the people from Tigert?

UF 60A

Page 61 McKenzie

A: I don't recall any uh coming' seems to me....

K: Mm hm.

A: One. I'm not sure t a Dr. but only if they

needed to use one and I don't recall that they have...

K: Not just to check on the quality-

A: Oh, no!

K: Of the collections or anything?

A: Uh uh.
K: Do you think that uh as a professional thatAlibrary in general-

the University of Florida libraries have-have been adequately

supported by the uh several administrations that you've been

here under?

A: Oh, huh, seems to me th-the need every year's for more money but
I think it's not from the administrators on campus might just be-

you know, the legislature.Ummmm, basically, I guess they have, I

-I don't-I would not know which one to say hadn't, you know.

K: Mm hm.

A: Uhm ....

K: But within the limitations of the funding they were given by the

legislature you --------...

A: I s'pose they have....

K: They've done pretty well?

UF 60A

Page 62 McKenzie.

A: Some have been more alert to the needs than others but I

don't know through the years which has-which have.

K: Mm hm. Has this ever been a good college library do you think?

A: What do you mean- the university---- ? What do you mean?

K: Well, this-this university -it's library system compared to

most state systems with which you might' have been at all ac-
quainted / through....

A: Well, uh....

K: People you've known in other libraries or....

A: I-I think it's -it's a considerably good library-good-it's a big

library. I/fact, what you know-I said I was disappointed when I

came but I think it -probably outgrown the University of Tennessee

now. I'm not sure -it's not nearly as old and uh doesn't maybe
some of the older things.they have)but I think it probably is bigger,

in fact, it's considered-well, bigness is not necessarily good-


K: Mmm hmm.

A: fut uh I think it's considerably one of uh the best in the south-

east you know.

K: Mm hm.

A: But it had a mushroom growth Fiv^/ "'9/r ^ e n, Ew ,
e^L W-' e t1tj K: It surely did.

A: Just today you had a students C. / :.. qA,. f

UF 60A

Page 63 -McKenzie

K: *Must have been two totally different experiences for you.

A: I It was. And it was not too gradual-it was sorta gradual

they had t- -rooms for the girls -the dorms ..__ ..

,___, /' ___ the children.

K: Yeah. How did you all move from East to West? I mean, were you

moved or did you have to do that yourselves?

A: Well, we had to do that ourselves. Well, I'll say-we-the library

staff had to do it ourselves. We had student assistants just to

take mine over in uh booktrucks and some of it uh was uh you

know, it's the little stuff that easily uh up but uh we

tried to do it gradually. That's the reason I had-we had our

students doit I guess. 'Cause we had to try to do it gradually

but uh I don't recall how the others-I imagine they were all

student assistants haulin' them by booktrucks.

K: Do you remember roughly how long that whole moving process


A: No0, we started in February I think it was '67 and I don't know

how long it took uh probably took us about a week or so. We
started before all ofAhelves were ready I think and so py Aly

collections was divided awhile but uh we were. .

first. And I don't know how long it took the others, really.

K: Probably over....

UF 60A-

Page 64 McKenzie

A: It's something to know that you had a whole new space to go _/CV

and in every case we left the top shelf uh of every section

and .hs--mue one if we could.

K: m1 hm.

A: Now they're all filled and they've got more shelves there eha

K: At least they're giving them some more uh rooms on the floor....

A: I understand they will-to the uh north of the uh ?^,.. ,-* /

K: And back to the east too in those classrooms....

A: Oh, that's where they -we-l, that's a possibility too. I hadn't

talked to Sally much about that so I didn't know what "2 .

K: They have a little more room anyway.

A: Mm hm. We thought we did when we moved in.

K: Never enough though.

A: That's right.

K: Well, that's about all the prepared questions I had to ask you-

if there's anything else you'd like to say-?

A: No, I-I don't guess so. I can't think of anything. I'll think of

something afterwards!

K: Probably.