Title: Interview with Lumbee Feedback (May 28, 1973)
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00008224/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Lumbee Feedback (May 28, 1973)
Alternate Title: Lumbee Feedback
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: May 28, 1973
Spatial Coverage: Lumbee County (Fla.)
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00008224
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 78

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Dean McClosky who comes from the University of Maryland up in

Baltimore will tell you e4 his study of the Baltimore community.

He was there right after I was and knows alot more about the

Baltimore scenA and what's been happening up there, particularly

the last three years. When he finishes Ed who is

from North Carolina State, a sociologist up there, is going to

tell you about the study he's been doing locally in the last

oh, I guess, what d..wa say, 'bout eight months?

da: Yeah, about a year.

S: Oniamily structure and fertility and things like that. Then

we're going to have a break and I SYnia outside and

we've got some homemade cookies. We'll have some cookies

and coffee and then when we come back Gene Bryceman who's from

Auburn University where he heads up the Sociology Department is

going to sort of react to what I said and *e what Ed said and

what Dave said and maybe poke some holes in it or raise some

questions about it and kind of invite from you the type of things

you'd like to hear about. And after Gene sort of, tries to pull

together some of the things we were saying, it will be open for

general discussion, general questions, whatever you want. And that's

sort of the way we're going to do it tonight. So tonight 0 is

going to be primarily formal studies that have been made on the

IndiansA Tomorrow night we're going to deal much more with sort

of what we call action programs. Things that are, that are sort


LUM 78A 7

of, sort of on a now basis. Professor is going to give se a

short rundown on history with particular reference to specific

dates that have been important -t the Indians, specific laws

that have affected the Indians,Athe kinds of problems I guess that

you'v-4e d in terms of identity, not only in terms of yourself, but

in terms of an identity as far as the state and nation go. After

his presentation Joe Lyle whom many of you know through his work

with the Lumbee Craftsmen's Fair and the 4lrmant July home-

coming celebration is going to talk a little bit about pan-Indianism,

some of the things perhaps that he's been doing, and he said he's

got some slides and f if we can find a slide projector we'll

have some slides that he's taken. And after Joe's presentation

Bob Gregory, who's ... I guess a / community organizer is going to

do some talking to you about *he community organizations,.-w&

power structures, the way changes happen, the way you make

changes happen. Bob has done some work with the Indians up in

Fayetteville and with the school integration kinds of things

he's been into. He's currently up in Raleigh with Drug Action

of W\(I a County. He's the executive secretary of that. Bob's

a kind of special guy. He in many ways is into the Drug Action

Program not only to deal with kids who are having trouble with

drugs, but because he sees the whole problem has started involving

the rest of the society too. And it's sort of his way of getting

into the regular part of society and helping them move towards some

changes. After that, after Bob's presentation tomorrow night,

we'll again have a break and I hope we'll have some cookies and

coffee.:. And George Scott who is down here from Bureau of Indian

Affairs will be the reactor to that. George is uh, I'm not sure



of his exact title, he's a big wheel in the Bureau of Indian

Affairs Office of Education and is one of the sharpest and most

knowleeable guys that I know in that area. And so he'll be a

reactor and then again tomorrow night we'll open it up for

general questions, comments, conversation or whatever. In the

event that any of you would like to talk to any of us in t terms

of a sort of a private or group consultation we will be around

we-& 41 4e arouTnd-most of us tomorrow, and if you'll let me know
I'll see
at the conclusion of this meeting tonight4if we can't set some-

thing up. For whatever purposes because a project that yeua you're

wo"Eing on or want to get working maybe we can,-1 -t l SLnOD a0ule-

so we'll be here for that. And with that I think I'd like to tell

you a little bit about what I did.

I came down here about five years ago to take a look at 0 some

Indians down here. I didn't know that they were here. And some-

body 41 said, "oh, you better go down and take a look at those

Indians." And I came down at Christmas time and there's always a

town where the people I met were just sort of open to me and wel-

comed me and I decided that this was where I wanted to do my field

work. So what I did was to begin to look at the Indians down here

and look at them up in Baltimore and try and figure out why they

were going to Baltimore, why they did so well up in Baltimore.

And I came up with four cultural themes that seemed to make sense.
/ cultural themes are kind of tricky; they're really not real,

but they're things that make sense in mind and I hope

And the four themes that seemed to be

going for Lumbee Indians and seemed to make sense for them. The

first one was that a man is a man. There's a sense of fby god, a



man is something special. And this isn't to put down women be-

cause women are women. There's a very clear distinction between

what is a man's role, what is a woman's role. There's a special

sense of pride which seems to go with e e\ A Indians down

here. A man's a man, and by golly, you don't fool with him, you
know. Horseplay, fool around, yeah, but it gets to a point were. a

man is something special. This is very, very strong. You see it

especially in your young men when they walk down the street.

in Baltimore Uh, there's a special

sense that home is Rob son County. No matter where you go,
no matter what yore job, no matter how far you've been or

how long you've been, home is back here. Home always will be

back here. There's a third theme that sort of is in my head came

out "now for now." And it's in a very special sense because the

Indians down here work hard, save, put their kids through school,

save money to buy their farms and fight to keep it. But there's a

spontaneity that's there; there's a "now for now" kind of thing.

I'll give you an example. There was one time that I was supposed

to speak I think at a PTA meeting down here. And everybody down

here knew it, but I was up in Raleigh and I didn't know it.

And the reason everybody down here knew it was because they had

somebody who said, "It was a face-to-face conversation, "now"

kind of thing." But because I was up in Raleigh I didn't meet any

of the Indians up there so nobody told me, which was very much

spontaneous kind of living in the present, which seems to be

characteristic of the Indians here. And it fits in with the

fourth one. Which I characterize as "sometimes broke, but


never poor." There's a, there'a a feeling about being Indian

that you may be down, you may not have any money in your pocket,

things may be bad, but you're not poor. You may be broke but

you're not poor. Being poor somehow involves a different kind

of sense of the spirit I guess. And the resources that let you

feel that you may be broke but you're not poor, these are your
community kin resources,/friendship network resources that J4 are

very strong within the Indian community. You may not have

value in your pockets, but you're not going to go hungry and

you're not going to be out in the cold at night because there's

going to be somebody, some of your kin's going to help you out,

going to take you in and feed you. You can count on it.

So these four themes that seem to really make sense to the

Indian community up in Baltimore because it gave them when they got

up there a special reserve that other groups in Baltimore didn't

seem to have., They could count on it. In many ways what they did

in parts of Baltimore anyway was to sort of recreate Pembroke

up 1Y there, you know? The same friends, the same way of dealing

with people, the same way of feeling about each other and it really

helped them get through alot of tough times up there.

The other area of study I did was with the National Study of

American Indian Education in which this area was studied. It was

the largest non-reservation area; the only one east of the Mississippi

except for Chicago:and Baltimore, which of course is the same

area here And one of the things that

we found out was about fifty per cent of the teachersAteaching in

public schools in the whole United Syates come from here. About

45% of the public school administrators who are Indian come from



here. And I think 65% of the teacher aides who are Indian

who are teaching in the United S/ates came from here. And when

we looked at the statistics t how many Lumbees are there, are

there 45% of the Indians, in the United S rates are Lumbee? No,

only 7%. So it began to look like somehow something was going on

down here that was making education really important to the

people in a way that wasn't true perhaps, or-weeneon. didn't

seem to be true on some of the other Indian settlements or
Lw e-
some of you know the other Indian reservations. And I had an

idea that part of it was this tremendous school system. That

this was, that it had Indian teachers in it; that this was one of

the very few places in the United States where you had a bunch of

Indians, where a mother and father could save, work hard, send

their kids through schoolsand send him onto college, get him a

college education, and not have to say to him, "okay, snn, you've

got your college education, goodbye." Because on most of the

Indian reservation areas and most of the Indian settlements in the
United States once you get / college education, you have to leave

because there aren't any jobs. And there were some jobs here;

there are some jobs. These were the sort of important things that

I was coming up with.

Uh, Abe, could I pass it on to you to pick up from there to

what happened in Baltimore.

A: -IL have some notes in front of me, but I also

have a watch. I'm going to try to stick pretty closely to a time

limit for myself. My name's Abe w "eky and I want to tell

you just one bit about the basis of my saying something about

Indians in Baltimore. You might know where I get some of the facts



A'/ that I talk about. I won't claim that my facts really re-

present the truth, as truth perhaps could be written. But I try

to be quite objective about my facts in looking at the Indians

in Baltimore. And I'm well aware that it's about the Indians in

Baltimore that I talk mostly. But we can't really talk about

the Indians in Baltimore without trying to understand a little bit

about the tradition the Indian springs from here in Robeson County.

I've known the Indians in Baltimore for about four years, be-

ginning about October of 1968. And then in the beginning

"A1969 r-d r "'.aa.a..a'j- j ---a for a year

thereafter I lived where a good many Indians lived in Baltimore.

If you've been there I lived on East Baltimore Street and Broad-

way for about a year and visited where Indians were and made

many friends among the Indians in Baltimore. And I came to feel
that IAwas making a good effort to understand how they looked

at things, how they understood things, and felt in a better po-

sition to be able to write and say what I think are the important

things as far as the Indians feel about themselves and their

life in Baltimore. Now anybody writing about this, about the Indians

in .Baltimore would have to really begin with saying just a little

bit about the question of identity--being Indian, among the Indians

in Baltimore. I just want to comment on a few aspects of this

being Indian. Clearly Indians here in Robeson County feel quite

Indian. There's ) no problems then because there are many things

about Robeson County and the Indian communitythat make it possible

for Indians to feel very Indian. Now it is true that Indians in

Baltimore have built their own place where a good many of them



4:lived shortly after they came. A\ot of them have stayed together.

But it really is very hard in the big city to maintain an identity

with your own people. There are so many other things that+egin

to interfere with this. And this happens in Baltimore too. You

know I think in the years) the Indians first came to Baltimore

around the second world Xar for the defense industry, I gather

anyhow. And I think for the next twenty years or so a good many

Indians really had to depend on family, being raised in Indian

families, and Indian churches to really get any sense of being

Indian. Y8u really couldn't get it in Baltimore schools where

the teachers were not Indian and there was not other way that

many of these kids could really feel Indian. So that they

really depended on their families and they really depended on

not just the immediate family of father and mother--there were

aLot of kinfolk around and they did have relatives who would

come and they'd visit with, but essentially it's a pretty hard

job for a family to really explain to a kid what it means to be
Yot ?tVA
Indian and IE-hough many people go to church even though I

think church means a great deal to the Indiansn Baltimore. The

way the Indians in Baltimore talk about it everybody went to

church here in Pembroke and perhaps you do. But I can say in

Baltimore not that many go to church. Since I've been to church

quite often and I know they don't get any tremendous crowds in

the Indian churches in Baltimore. So that really meant something
of a problem for the Indians to feel that they were to re-

cognize something about being Indian. Now I must say right at the

beginning when talking about the Indians in Baltimore that I

think one of the important things that happened beginning in late



'68 and early 1969 was the establishment of the American Indians

Study Center which was established by the Lumbee Indians from

__ from Robeson County. And this Center is still in existence,

there are many problems in any organization continuing, and I

don't want to go into the problems that they have. But one

of the things in the four years that I have noticed and felt very

strongly are the Indians come 'ewn in big numbers to the Indian

Study Center or don't come, and they Rally don't come in very

big numbers. Everybody knows about the Indian Center. You can

talk with any Lumbee practically in Baltimere and they know there

is an Indian Center and they know the people that are associated

with it, and many of them when they're in trouble do come to the

Indian center and try to get help from them. I think it's been one

of the biggest things about Indians in Baltimore; feeling foam.

Viw- Indian and recognizing their connections, not only with Robeson

County. People can feel strongly about Robeson County as a nice

place to live, nice place to bring your kids, nice place to raise

'em, but they must still fl something else if they want to

feel Indian, and I think aot of them who feel strongly about

Robeson County not only feel that way because it was home, but feel

that way because it's Indian. And they want to keep up this

connection of being Indian. And I do assure you that there are

problems about this, you know. After all kids do get married,

you meet lirls or you meet fellas who are not Indian and there's a

lot of intermarriage taking place. But essentially I think the

Indian Center is one of the big things about Indians \j sa- AcsWrt

who are still feeling quite Indian. This is not a plug for the

Indian Center, and whether or not this particular center continues



/, or not I think the time is ripe for that kind of thing in Baltimore,

which incidentally has about 2500 Indians at least by now. So that

it is a big substantial Indian community there, and I think the

Indian Center has done a very good job in making people aware of

being Indian. But I want to talk to you about some other things

that I felt quite keenly about the Indians in Baltimore.

First, I wanted to tell you one thing that is important;

and probably you're well aware of this. But for an outside like

me it's something I've become acquainted with trying to get their

point of view $ about it. I would have assumed when I went into

that community that certain would be very important. You know

people would feel they were getting prestige if they had certain

kinds of attributes; if they were rich, if they had very good edu-

cation, if they came from the right families. These were the

sorts of things that one ordinarily expected in the United SXates.

People are going to feel this gives you prestige. Well, not

that 44 these things aren't important among the Indians in

Baltimore and I'd like to say education does mean lot to

the Indians there, but essentially when talking with Indians there

I concluded now I might be wrong, see, I warned you) But these

are just things I observe and talk and then I make certain kinds

of guesses, if you want, about it, ,Ad I really felt there

were just two basically kinds of groupings with Indians in Baltimore.

As they saw themselves. One group was a "bar" crowd, and the other

group was __?pt This is the way they described themselves.

There a bar crowd that obviously they, the hangouts were

bars, and some of you may be familiar with the bars around

Baltimore. Some of them have since declined considerably. 'Course



A' that area of Baltimore is undergoing a great deal of change. And

this was the crowd that might go out and a+ot and

lots of problems, T in trouble with the law A

But they were really not a major part of the Indians in Baltimore.

I couldn't guess numbers, though I did i-9make a guess in

the study that I did, and I think that essentially I was right

about that time.. probably less than a third of these

Indians were in this particular a third of the mass were in

this particular kind of group. But the majority really were the

hardworking kind, staying away from the bars, some of them were

the "saved" respectable who went to church, and I say, not

many went to church. So you can't really say so many of them were(

savedl *id AMoot of them who even were not saved were not

going to the bars and not drinking and they really divided that

way. There were those who were the drinkers who will lie right

down in the streets A3ke Ac but there were

alot of others who worked very hard and wouldn't think of doing that

and really stayed away from the bars because if you went to the

bars you were likely to get into lot of different kinds of

trouble. When people get drunk, you can't really tell what they

might be doing. Now I do say there is a certain kind of change

taking place among the Indians there. I do think that the kids

who are going to school in Baltimore and a ot of them graduate,

lot of Indians, well, not ayot, Indians hat have graduated

from the schools in Baltimore --these aren't the only kinds of

differences they establish among themselves. It really does make

alot of difference now to a kid what kind of "occupation that they



go into. S one of the things I did in the summer of 1969

a sort of a questionnaire among a number of Indians. What kind

of an occupation do you think is a very good occupation, what

kind of occupation would you went your kids to follow if your kids

could do whatever it is he wanted to do, what would you like him

to do? And I was struck then by the fact that the skilled trades

were the kinds of things they wanted their kids to do. They wanted

them to be carpenters and electricians and plumbers., This is

what a ot of people thought and they're reallyhigh-paying trades,

especially UL Aoe& td e Baltimore. But when you

talk with Indians now as I did this past summer going through

another kind of follow-up survey, -ot of people want their

kids and alot of kids want to be LleaiC- They do want to be

doctors and they want to be lawyers and they want to be teachers.

Not that a good many of them are going to get that far because

onef the big problems of the Indian kids is that a ot of them

don't really complete their high school; alot of them do drop out-

as Greg found out in his survey. And this is still

continuing. I must tell you this is happening in city schools all

over the United States and it isn't just schools in the central

cities; it isn't just Indianqi there's something wrong with a good

many schools in central cities and they're really discouraging alot

of kids from continuing. I think this is -af1EPy true of the

Baltimore schools, too. I do think Indian kids are changing and I

wanted to make that point sort of emphatic The Indian kids are

not just going to go along with this notion of a "bar" crowd,

which a\ot of them will not participate in and something vaguely

respectable. A ot of them are going to sort of from the



A' major dominant white society the notion kind of occupation, how

much money you're going to make, this is going to be very important

for them. Now I want to point out something else that I thought

very important about it. You know out of this notion, and I

don't know whether you're going to agree with me about this ka A ,i

I said this statement, I don't know whether you had a chance to
read what I wrote, I gave a copy to the Indian Center in Baltimore

and they presented a copy to Pembroke State University: I got the

notion listening to th se Indians that essentially among themselves,

and it may well be true over here too, they are what I think

social scientists would say, an egalitarian society. That is that

they really feel quite equal to each other. And when Greg speaks

about a man, feeling very important and very significant
about being a man, part of it is / sense th&t he's as good as any

other man, and he feels this quite keenly. But he also feels this

you knoW in i an utLrCe of this discrimination around Baltimore

as I would ... I'm presumtuous enough to say there's been discrimination

around Robeson County, discrimination against Indians as T a
there has been against many minority groups in Blatimore. And/the

Indians A say this they're saying this in a world of inequality.

But there is still this sense that they're as good as any other

man and in effect they're as good as any other Indian and this may

be a very fine idea. I do think it's a very fine idea, but this is
why if
one of the reasons I suspect that/they perceive any kind of insult

at all alot of Indians are ready to respond very quickly, you

know. It's __, but I do think essentially the Indians

in Baltimore are very, very egalitarian. It really ... the only ...



Sif the only thing that counts is that you're respectable, it

doesn't take ... anybody can be respectable; anybody can stop

drinking and anybody can really work hard and stay at work, so that

in a sense there are not just scarce positions of prestige, any-

body can have thatkind of prestige. And in this sense I think

there's something very, very important to a ot of Indians and

very, very good about the way that they are. Just one other thing,

though, I wanted to talk about and that's making a living for

Indians in Blatimore. I think it's important and perhaps you


The Indians came here, came to Baltimore in the second World

War and they were then the defense industry, Baltimore being a

major industofal center and really as you go north from Robeson
County/the first big industrial center that you're going to hit.

And I suspect that's one of the reasons why so many stop off in

Baltimore and stay there. Baltimore I really is quite a diversified

Industrial community. It was once a port city, a major port and

still is a major port, but it also has many other things, a big

GM plant, a big Bethlehem plant, it has asot of small industries,

+t-aws well known for the needle trade, but the big thing that In-

dians went into after the second world war was something else hap-

pening in many cities through out the United States, the building

boom. There was a great deal of building that went on in Baltimore,

and many Indians when they came there wAnt into the building trade.

Now there really are two parts of the building trade, there were

then and probably still are. There's new construction and there's

the re-modeling of old buildings. Unions then controlled the new

construction. And the re-modeling the unions in Baltimore didn't



4' bother with. This was left to the non-union people. And that's

where the Indians went. What this really means is that many Indians'

really took much lower pay than tlrey did ... Lt.han the union men were

getting in new construction. Their pay was considerabl-less.

But it was still quite good pay. And I sort of feel quite

strongly that the Indians generally in Baltimore really are not at

all at the poverty level. They were not three years ago and they

still are not now. They're really not ... they're far from the

unskilled type of many rural migrants to cities and people have

really picked up these building trade skills and a ot of other

skills and have done reasonably well in Baltimore. The point is

though even if they're not at the bottom they only do moderately

well in the city. I want to say one other thing about the work of

the Indians in Baltimore), something that struck me very strongly

a few years ago and has come out particularly this summer. A+ot of

Indians have joined unions. Unions in recent years have been very

accepting of Indians. And there's an Indian, for example, who's

the president of the steelworkers' local, a Lumbee Indian, president

of a s4kil+edworkers' local, _round there.

The Indians feel very strongly about the importance of unions. Now

that is a little different between now and several years ago. A

few years ago if they joined maybe they joined because they had to,

they were in union shops and had to join. Now l[ot of them feel

quite strongly about unions and I this past summer gave them some

sort of hypothetical questions like: if you're j.ts if

your union wanted to go on strike for money and if the boss were

to say to you, "Don't go out with the union, I'm going to give



you more pay, would you stay on, or wouldn't you stay on? And

almost universally among the Indians I asked, no, they wouldn't

stay on. They felt they needed the union in order to be able

to be sure that if there was a pay raise they would keep that.

As they said the boss after while wouldn't Aj-t them. I think

this is one of the important things that Indians have learned in

the city. I can add to a number of other things and I'd be glad to

respond to questions about the Indians. Essentially I want to say

in the area of acculturation, or what we call acculturation, I

really feel that Indians have basically maintained their own

groups. You know, essentially the Indian friends are ... the Indians have

friends among other Indians. This is something that Indians are

beginning to look away from in Baltimore. There are friends they

picked up in difeien areas, but if you're going to talk about

the basic friendship networks of Indians let me say that most of the

Indians basically have friends among other Indians. This is what
I would call/kind of structural pluralism you have in Baltimore.

And I want to point out too that Baltimore is a very ethnic-divided

town; that Baltimore has all kinds of ethnic groups: Poles and

Italians, and what do you think the Italians do? The Italian

friends are mostly among other Italians, and the Polish friends are

mostly among other Poles. It is not unusual for the Indians to be

that way. But I have found the Indians really much more receptive

towards moving out toward people on the outside. So that I do

think they're in a stage of transition now. There is this feeling

strongly about a holding -on to being Indian, and yet there is

also, there are many interesting things about people i on the



A outside, that Indians are beginning to find out about. It's hard

to predict any future as far as the Indians are concerned in

Baltimore. I do think they will hold on to their Indianness. I
think there are going to continue to be all kinds of changes among

them and a number of them are just going to feel after a while

marrying other people that maybe they don't want to be Indian. And

this is something that if a strong Indian movement develops over

here it's r6g-to be as strong, it's going to be felt over there.

And this will be one of the ways in which Indians can really feel

strongly unified. Thank you very much. Fci7

: Maybe on good thing about coming third and almost last thei maybe

I can get to play the devil's advocate and let you squirm for a

minute and turn to the light side. Went down to V)4ML4A-,

last summer to make a talk and I was introduced in a 4eeaitv-

way, and so I've decided maybe I'll change that introduction to-

night and say I'm employed as a demographer, but after being

introduced as a democrat, down in I% w ,e I still want to

be known as demographer in those Couple of funny stories

I'd like to tellto get your thought patterns on what we're trying

to do in Robeson County. I know you must have had numerous

stories of accounts of the little "Johnny" i jokes. As Johnny

comes in to mommy and daddy he's got various questions. The

question that I suppose has bea ue 4-e befuddle all children

at some point in their lives: where do babies come from? And

so a couple of little stories of Johnny then asking mommy where

do babies come from. One Johnny comes flying into mommy and

says, "Hey, Mommy, where did I come from?" She says, "oh, no.

This poor child. Is he ready for life?" And she says, "yeah,



he's ready." So she took him in on the sofa and sat down

and proceeded to tell the story of life. About halfway through

Johnny says, "whoa, Mommy, that's not what I mean. Billy comes

from South Carolina, where do I come from?" ... Well ... Greg

and Abe have talked about migration ;here people originate and

move to, hither and there. The other little story when Johnny

comes in with the same question and he says, "Hey, Mommy, where

do babies come from?" "Oh, my gosh." Same thing--is he ready?

Well, she says, no he's not ready. I can't tell him where :

babies come from. So she says, "Johnny, it's like this'." She

said, "Babies come from seeds. And God takes the seed and puts

it in Mommy's tummy, and that seed grows and that's where babies

come from." Well, that satisfied little Johnny. It's deep enough.

He went tearing out. Later that day he was eating an apple and

when you're a hungry little boy eating an apple, sometimes you

eat too deeply and you find seeds. He got one of those forward

ideas; some bright light bulb come on, blump, seeds and babies.
He goes tearing out of the yard digs himself a ,.hole,/puts his

apple seed in the hole. 'Goes away-happy. Doesn't think about it

anymore until the next day when he came tearing out of his house;

as he hit the ground he saw that fresh mound of dirt. And that

light bulb came on againjbsitting on that mound of lirt was the

ugliest old toad frog that Johnny had ever seen in all his life.

And he looked at the toad frog, the toad frog looked at Johnny,

and he looked at the toad frog and you know,U-h ,

OD RaM wr4 4 1ii \kOrj 0.And finally he summed up all his

courage and said, "If I weren't your daddy, I'd stomp t4he-al



the hell out of you!" ... Now, now ... we demographers who've

studied people)and I think that's the way I'd like for you to

think of what we do as we study people. Now we've studied these
put )
three processes that I've tried to imaginatively A these stories

about Johnny. We study about birth, we study about people

dying and we study about people moving. I've got to tell you one

other story I have --a defense for what I'm going to say. Do

you know about the lion in the jungle? I thought I did, but I

started telling some students one day and they corrected I me

so many times. You correct me when I get the story wrong. A lion

woke up one morning and he said, "I'm the king of the jungle.5

",Ia, ha."7' going to go out and find out if that's not true."

And so he went stomping through the jungle and came to a chimpanzee,

and he said, "Chimpanzee, who's the king of the jungle?" The

chimpanzee looked at him and said, "You are, oh, mighty lion."

And the lion beamed and- treegh4 out his chest and he could barely

walk off. He came to a skunk. Skunk? Yeah, skunk. He said,

"Skunk, who's the king of the jungle?" He said, "Oh, you are, oh,

mighty lion." And the f lion was feeling pretty good, walking

tall all the time. Came to a clearing in the jungle and came to

an old elephant standing there grazing away in the trees. He goes,

"Elephant, who's king of the jungle?" And the elephant kept eating.

He said, "Elephant, I'm going to ask you twice. Who's the king

of the jungle?" And the elephant kept eating. "Elephant, I'm

going to ask you the last time: who's the king of the jungle?"

And the elephant took his snout or his trunk or whatever you call

it, reached down, caught the old lion around -ts stomach, his belly


or whatever you call it, walked over to this big tree and started

slapping him, wham, wham, wham, and you can go on, you know,

again all night and he put the lion down and the

lion went dragging off to the edge of the clearing and got to

the safety of the trees, and turned around and looked over his

shoulder and said, "You didn't have to get so mad 'cause you didn't

know the right animal!" Well, I guess I differ from my two col-
leagues who have gone before me because I'm not at a to give you

the right answers yet. I would like to take this opportunity to

express our appreciation to all of you, and I, I hope we've cap-

tured some of you in our study, think one thing that we fail to teach

our students as we teach them how to do research projects, is to
go back andkthank people for taking part. And so I do sincerely

express our appreciation for the willingness of people in this

county to i j ill .

Four years ago a group of young Ph.Ds embarked on a journey

because they felt that being so bright with all new degrees that

they ought to go out and seek the truth and find the right

answers happened to come upon the idea to know the need to dis-

cover further knowledge in the area of these "Johnny jokes" I

spoke. And so we sat down td try to map out a plan of action

where we could come to understand the process of why Johnnys

ask questions. We became interested in Robeson County because

Robeson County is in the book as one of the poorest counties

in the nation and yet at the same time if you look at another

set of books it's one of the richest counties insofar as the

amount of agricultural products go. So we were interested in

a, can I say poorer county, to see what's taken place. At the



same time Robeson County was a unique county because it afforded

us an opportunity to look if not ae a usual color breakdown or

racial breakdown of whites and blacks. But here is a third group

to consider. We should look not only to whites and blacks but also

at Indians. So there was a second important reason why we were

interested in the county. A third reason which finally captured

our interest and brought us to this county to study 4-t. 4.Vt

was the fact that in a demographer's language, people language,

Robeson County is a rural county. And if you wanted to look at the

storehouse of information where people have studied the peopling

process over time you -goto all the major studies starting with the

Indianapolis study back in the forties and coming to the Princeton

studies in the fifties, and the growth of American families in

the fifties and sixties has been primarily with urtfan places,

big cities. And so we started what we thought then was

a vacuum in what we know about the n process. They

found very few, no major studies, let's put it that way, studying

the people in process in a rural county, a poor county, a tri-

racial county. So we set out and we were fortunate indeed to have

the blessings of the National Institute of Child Health and De-

velopment and they awarded us with funds that we might conduct

a two-year study here in Robeson County. The other unique thing,

while I'm talking about the unique things that we decided to try

to accomplish, I think it will be the strongest part of the study

that will emerge, one which I think all of you along with us can

be proud of. This will be one of the first major studies that

has attempted to deal both with maie and female in understanding

the pop process. The majority of the previous studies



have attempted to gain data only from female respondents. And

predominately white female respondents. So we think we have an

opportunity with the data which we have just completed the

collection process, which some of you are probably aware of, the

last two or three weeks ago We think we'll have some unique

data and we think we'll have a great deal that we can say to our

country and that we can say to you. So I look forward to coming

back and tell you what we do find once we get some of the

findings found. Let me take a few more minutes and tell you

some of the things that we are particularly interested in pur-

suing. -I y\teL- 4eyoo pC fhe^Lt the major variables that

people have looked at before trying to understand the idea of

residence, a .d-who- y.... whether you live in a rural area

or an urban area; income-wise, and just tied up in a concept that

sociologists call "social Q ." I know you must have read
?-eso 0 "'s-<
countless accounts of the relationship between the -Ieealin

process and ones of social ecSS So we decided to come down

and take a look at some other variables that av been explored

in great detail. We wanted to try avd understand peoples'

values, and what they feel to be most important to them. Also

*t. to look at what Ni people think about various items and

what their attitudes are towards various issues. To look at

the goals, the end results the people direct their data lines

toward. And perhaps most important of all is to look again at

what sociologists call "social relationships." And we wanted to

get some understanding as to what takes place between man and

wife. And how this affects their behavior and particularly their

behavior a dthe pep. i- process. So we come in and I'm not



going to ask you to identify yourself, if you're a part of our

survey, you'll recognize some of the, the variables, )VT

questionS&a-und thLe ... we're pursuing along these lines trying to

get at goals, attitudes, values and social relationships.


Side 2---

... who announces UL T 'yE 0\ to the people in the La I Ke

says I want to announce some good good news and some bad news. I'm

going to give you the bad news first. We are hopelessly lost. And

now for the good news. We're making excellent speed! Well, let's

look at the bad news of the Indian situation in America and
perhapsimore specifically your own. As for the liabilities Indians

in North Carolina are a rural people. Rural lives have obvious

advantages, such as privacy, no smog, no traffic jam, friendly

neighbors, you can go on and list them. But it has some obvious

disadvantages: services such as phon, water, mail delivery, medical

facilities, schools) are costly to provide when people are widely dis-

persed. In some cases in some rural areas some of these services

are not available at all. Some Indians for example and the

process in New Mexico must go a hundred miles to the $ nearest

hospital to have a baby delivered in a hospital. X Wre that far

from a doctor, that far from medical facilities. Paved roads,and

rural electification has changed this a great deal but there're

still disadvantages: rural schools, rural churches tend to be

smallUr and are much less able that their city counterparts to pro-

vide some services for their constituents. Rural people in recent

years have received less and less political attention. I was

associated with an valuation of ydderal programs for three years.



That program was brought into being essentially to see that rural
people got seme of the services that urban people were getting. AI

would say that the present administration also tends to give more

attention to urban problems than to rural. So the fact that you're

rural in some ways is a liability. as Indians you are a

third group in a society which tends to recognize only two groups:

black and white. Your historic struggle to maintain a separate

identity with separate churches and schools is well known and needs

little elaboration here. The point is that when the nation as a )Vo\t

considers inter-group relations it tends to think in terms of
black and white, .A third deficit is that relative to whites Indians

as a category are not wealthy. If you work you would be better able

to effectively control your destiny. Here in Pembroke you have

been able to make some economic gains which are impressive. I

believe that is also true of the Indians in Sampson Gounty and,

ale. according to the reports tonight)also in Baltimore. In

Halifax County, Warren County, North Carolina, in Washington County,

Alabama where I've been studying Indians there, and San __

County, New Mexico, Indians are the poorest of the poor. Third

or-fourth, historically Indians have had educational deficits.

Indiantschools often were a third system of schools in many counties,

poorly financed by the government and often paid for out of the

meager resources of Indians themselves. If they wanted schools, they

had to do it themselves, and this is a matter of historic record.

Books and other learning resources were scarce, teachers were

poorly paid, students were often unable to attend school regularly

because they were needed to work on farms. That still is a prob-

lem in a society where if you're born poor and you want to move



up the economic ladder you need to get a quality education and

lacking a quality education you have problems. It has already

been mentioned that keeping kids in school is a problem in some

areas. It is a problem in rural areas. It is a problem in the

cities as well. Dr. McClosky has mentioned a possible problem

area for Indians in Baltimore; the decline of the church. Histori-

cally3 if you look at the records the church has been an important

element in fostering a sense of identity. You look back at

the early Indian schools that were established in this county, in

Sampson County, and elsewhere in the state. Many times they were

an outgrowth of{Sunday school or some other organizations. So the

sense of Indian identity has been inextricably linked with the

viability and strength of the church. I see those as a few deficits,

problem areas, negative areas, if you wish.

Now for the assets. Indians now enjoy the national reputation

among many whites of being cultural heroes. Many whites are now

quite happy to find that one of their ancestors was an Indian. As

a matter of fact there are so many whites that claim Indian ancestors

that one must believe that those early Indians must have been real

men and real women. It is a fact that Indians have come to be heroes
r I
of the Ame ican past and so I think that there is now a resfwoir of

g p will w4ch can be tapped whenever appeals are made for re-

sources. I think the l .ne-- r-he sense in which Indians have been

forced into segregated facilities, schools, churches, has been a

mixed kind of blessing for the churches and the schools have be-

come training grounds for leaders. It would be difficult to estimate

the impact Pembroke State University has had upon the Indians of

the state and elsewhere. As has already been mentioned I forget who


it was that said it, this university provided youngsters with role

models. They, they could see that an Indian could grow up to be a

professor at a university. An Indian could do something.....Searn

a good living, be respected. And I think the fact that right here

in this county Indians have their own institution of higher learning

ha., has been a very, very important thing, and I don't know how to

estimate the total impact .e- of this school. For example, the

uaLJiUL 3 J?> Indian school in the early years was almost entirely

staffed by persons who had originally got their training here.

You've been able to acquire land and a good bit of it. I went just

to get some feel for this to the old record books today. And looked

at some of these early deeds that were given to Indians.

YouPheld onto land since the seventeen hundreds. You said that

home ia, is Robeson County. Here's where people own land; here's

where people k*ve put down their roots. It's been an important

thing and I would say if I might give any advice for the future:

acquire land and hold onto it. There is an important sense in

America in which the landowner has had a better deal than the

person who did not own land. County officials' recognizepeople who

own land. You tend to get a better deal in court. And so I

think this has been an important part of your heritage.

Dr. Peck has mentioned your resources which enablefou to adapt

to the stress of urban living. This sense of having to struggle

for your identity here and maintain your Indianness gave you a

strength that has come into good use in Baltimore. Dr. McClosky

has n.tioned the role of the Indian Center. And I think he has

also touched an important area when he mentioned the occupational

aspirations of the Indians. That young man INfr with me today



he says, "I don't know what I'm going to do." He said, "I'm thinking

about learning brick-laying." And I encouraged him in this. I

said you acquire that skill and you'll be able support yourself any-

where you go in the country, if you learn to be a good one. But

then there's been a shift away somewhat from the trades, the skilled

trades to the professions, and perhaps this is, is wholesome.

It was mentioned also that you have learned the worthwhileness f of

pulling together. I think this is terribly important. It's mani-

fested itself in the union orientation in Baltimore. The Indians in

Robeson county Sampson county, somewhat later in Halifax and

Warren A County did establish institutions, did learn to pull to -

gether. Had their schools, their churches, their political or-

ganizations. This has Wi not been true of all Indian groups. One

large Indian group in south Alabama so far as I know never established

an Indian club, never established many of their own churches nor

their own system of higher education, and as a result they have

not been able to adjust as well to some of the stresses of urban

life. Well, as I see,it these are some of the pluses and some of the

minuses a e elaty the situation. I hope that this provides a

vehicle for some of the questions that 4A you might want to address

to the members4f the panel. How should we handle this? How do we

want to ...?

S: N you stay here too' You had something to say. Eddie, do you

want to-come and 46 What y'all think?

: ..... identification. This process is two-fold. They sent a

team of interviewers to each household \ A wvLA

on a first visit and asked the persons in that household to
identify to rou do you belong? And so each
identify to VU group do you belong? And so.each


mus 78A

each household identified themselves as one of the three groups

we're looking at.

SNow you include n your study the people in Baltimore and the people

... what peoples are you going to include ... will be in your


L: Only those persons that were living here physically in the county last

summer, summer of 1972.

: Greg, you may speak to this tomorrow night, but some of us may not

be here tomorrow night and others ..... You better


................. ( garbled question.)

: You can get me in trouble on that one. Okay, uh, as long as you

had your own separate school system and sort of by agreements X

number of jobs Indian jobs, it't-ee L you in the middle, put a

ceiling on you. But it was in many ways a pretty happy middle.

With the enforced desegregation not only of-students, but of

faculty, coupled with a surplus of public school teachers, uh, that

monopoly, in the sense of jobs, is seriously threatened. Tenure

is a very shaky thing wkth as a result it isn't only in Robeson

County, it's all over this state and it's in every state that has

gone through this desegregation thing. Okay, so that, that sort of

sets the picture. et--rt-- in a sense the Indian position, Indian

economic position in the county, is in jeopardy. The double-voting

issue comes in because it limits and minimizes the Indian oice

in decide ng who's going to make the decisions about who has the

jobs. Be these decisions based on deciding what kinds of tests

do weeople?- Do we pick up a seven foot ruler and say, okay,

everybody's who's seven J feet tall, they pass, and if. you are

LU 78A

under Zr then we'll.rank you below it or whatever the test may be.

The people who are going to decide >i, are the people that are
e_ 44.,-4 +L k ,A0tj[ -u -tOt
elected in thie county. pe ..pli J-aL .CiiO

gM#-V eft\X1- 40 4&LV sDAb, LcvVQr a^4
S 4 And so they, they don't have the same concern, the same gut level

my-kids-are-being-educated concern that the Indians and the other

county residents do have. And *ta, the double vote thing really

is preventing in many ways- or many poeple believe this, and you

can't prove it by facts, but it certainly seems a reasonable be-

lief that it's preventing more Indian strength on that school

board and you got --a third of the population, I don't think

you've got a third of the membership. And you've got probably

well over a third of the population of the county school system.

And you certainly don't have a proportional representation on

the board. And the reason you don't I think is the double-vote.

And that's why ikhA, this particular issue is really very

crucial to the Indian community here.

"-on't you think that norms can be misleading?

you ask so many questions, you get so many answers --don't you

think those terms can A be misleading q sometimes o4-e ,L

S0\A p _I4_ because '

people, people are individuals. I, I'm very unique person; _

-- ateeth that I'm great or anything but I'm my own person, you

LUM 78A 30

know and I have my own identity. That's my first question:

don't you think that norms are misleading. And-2 don't you

think that thkenly way we're ever going to get anywhere

S .. L__lJt_____ I ______ ( And I dis-

agree with aLot of the conclusions I heardrdrawn, but don't

you think we're going to have to take these summations that

you've come up with and put them to work and next time we have a

seminar you be sitting in the front row and we'll be standing

there? You know, reverse the roles. I know all you guys are

oV'- vo\eK. At iCAUO\)

V: I would like to see very much the roles reversed. I do feel

still speaking about Baltimore that I would like to see studies

of the Indian people mcr" ad" mr done by the Indian Center

and by Indian people. And I think they're beginning to. Now one

of the first ... you know you can do studies without any back-

ground in how to do it and then you my come out with information

which may not be very reliable. So why don't they begin

some help getting it. I

don't know why some of the Indians who are more educated here

can't help them out in Baltimore too in the Indian Study Cen-

ter and tell them some of the ways in which studies might be

done. I do agree with you. I think it would be very important


for Indians to really be doing most of these studies of the

Indian people. 14,, I feel somewhat guilty about this, and I

would say that I do try and whenever I can I stay connected

with the Indian community and when called upon I try to help out

in whatever they want me to help out. But you make a good

point and do hope there's more, there more Indians who will

be involved doing this rather than people from the outside
coming A saying things. Though I still think ast Mr.

says, Dr. L YU (7) says, it is important for outsiders

also to be looking. It's not that we can fully understand

as outsiders. I never pretend that I fully understand. But

I think there's a certain kind of outsiders' view which I

try to maintain as truthfully and as objectively as I can. 4

t adds a little bit more. But I do think the insiders'view

is very, very important and would be much more illuminating

than my view.

: Let me just throw one thing in. As an anthropologist when we

look at behavior we find people sort of spread all over the

map but tending ... most of them fall in a particular area.

The feeling that a man is a man. There may be some homosexuals

among the Indians. Obviously they don't feel this. But

most Indians kind of fit somewhere here in the middle. So

that's the first thing we do. And then as an anthropologist

the second thing we do is to go down into the situation and

we try and behave in terms of those things that we've seen.

And first thing we find out is that we've made a mistake and

LUM 78A 32

they think you're a durn fool. And ..... (garbled). In this

kind of a context that we try and describe this range of be-

havior in terms of the central tendencies. Uh, on the other

point I'd be honored to be invited to your seminar.

: May I say that it offends me somewhat to be standing hup4 I

take a philosophy never stand when you can sit down; never sit

down when you can lie down! I would much rather be sitting

down and I would much rather be having you .. talking. But let

me say in fairness to the person who arranged this program.

I did not. I was simply an invited guest. This is simply one

thing that development of

the Indian people. One other thing I studied--of course,

occupational education. And I was asked to evaluate occupa-

tional education --in this case for whites. And when my research

was over I was invited to Washington and they made me stand

and tell what I found out. And I hope that's what I, what we're

doing here. We just, I'm just setting the tone of things

: I, I just wanted to direct 4 question to you in a friendly

manner. t gAdJ' -A- &o Votf)- but I think thatA

tSa.. this concept is what's going to be our salvation.

When we ask those kind of questions and you know, and take

your answers and evaluate them and put them to use. And you

know we've been a frustrated people. Some of our most brilliant

people, you know, guys who were frustrated so they went out and

had car wrecks and killed each other. We gotta start asking

LUM 78A 33

questions and we gotta, you know, get away from this ,C g .

type thing where if you're a so-called W-A-S-P that we can't Ar DA-

_: That's entirely different.

: I mean we gotta get away from that idea that we cant ask those

kind of questions, you know, i k r B a.A i-V

- : Right.

c: We had problems with it.

S I would like to ask a question of what happens after 4-

shortcomings that you might find ?

From our -ds.L we would certainly hope that, in fact the federal

government has required that we provide the information back

to you) as well as providing it to the federal agency that has

control of some of the programs) so there can be changes, posi-

tive changes made'where there are defects

: I feel basically in Baltimore that the work -aout correcting

some of the inequities in Baltimore needs to be done by the In-

dian people, by the Indian Center. They must do it. And all I

can feel is that I've made my study available not only to the

Indian Center but I've made it available to a ot of the people

who helped make in the course of the study, the Indians, gave

them copies of it. And I visit the Center and visit my

friends and talk with them and want to be available to them if

they need the help. I think that's one of the advantages of

my situation--that I've remained in Baltimore. It wasn't

LUM 78A 34

just this study for one year, but I stayed there and continued

my contacts with them. I think the Indian people basically

have to do this themselves, and want to do it themselves. The

Indian Center doesn't want me to come in and tell them how

to do anything at all. They're interested in -ib the findings

of my study, but they want to do it themselves and I think

that's the way it ought to be done.

And mine, mine really involved two phases: the first phase was

as a starving graduate student I paid all my own bills and

barely did that. And so I couldn't help anybody but myself.

I got a dissertation out of that and that's something that I

paid for and that's also something that you have given to

me. And for this there is a debt. The second part of the study

was, there was money in that one. That was part of the national

study of American Indian education. And I was-a,, one of I

think six center directors. And I had I think the highest

proportion of Indian employees of any of the centers. Every

single one of my interviewers was Indian. They received

some training, not a whole lot, but they received some, and

many of them have gone on to be then skilled interviewers

in other studies that came through here. The output from that

study went into a final report to Congress and to the President.

No an awful lot has come from it, but the new Indian Education

bill that some of you know about that's been passed but hasn't

gotten the funds paid for was influenced with some of the

LUM 78A 35

information from that national study. And on a couple of

key issues it was influenced. And one of them was the way in

which Indian is defined. Because up until that time

pretty much when it came to fundingtan Indian was defined

as a member of the BIA rol+. On the new Indian Education

Act he's defined as "any group that the state recognizes as

an Indian" is eligible. Now this is a real crucial -v,4"

and it wouldn't have happened I don't think without the sup-

porting evidence from the national study of Indian education.

Some other changes that have happened in the county as a result

of that study ---I think there's a new awareness and emphasis

upon the importance to you of Indian history. And not only

to you but to everybody else in the county because they're

living in this county too, and they ought to know something

about Indians. This isn't moving perhaps as fast as we would

like it to, but it is moving. And so there's some things

going there. I think, I also am and have been a resource

for people down here, %4." and would like to be more of a

resource. But I think that best of all I'd like to be run off

'cause I got somebody who's more qualified and who's Indian

and they don't need me.

: Was Federal Indian policy part of your iny in your

study? I know the historical part is on tomorrow night, but

I just wondered if that, -... IS 4 people here

getting caught between Federal Indian policy and tate, and

LUM 78A 36

their reaction to it caused them to I guess, n 4ot of cases,

cause somewhat a disappointment in Indian leadership. I think

that's probably more of a than anything else from my

study of the .a ^ V^

Yeah. The,-wea issue never came up directly but was always

there. And I went through all sorts of flak on the national
study because twh the Lumbee didn't fit the mold. Without

Federal funding, without federall payments, your income was

higher than most Indians. Without federall BIA, schools your

education level was way above other Indians. You just didn't

behave like lot of the Indians in the United States should

behave. Even those in tri-racial stations you didn't, didn't

fit the pattern. And one of the big differences is other In-

dians in tri-racial situations tend to be in a tri-racial situa-

tion with whites, Spanish-Americans and Indians)and they're on

the bottom. And the Lumbees weren't. They were well into the

middle, and well into the upper-middle and even when you look

at their income it was, you know, edging toward the poverty

level, but their behavior was not. They were behaving like,

you know, not very wealthy middle class and upper middle class

but boy, they had the Protestant ethic right down the line.

They had the work ethic right down the line. They had the

the attachment, very strong attachment to church, even

when they didn't go. You know they just looked really good,

solid middle class people. And this just didn't fit in with

LUM 78A 37

most of the studies that we did. And so it was a continual

hassle in the studies to try and fit Lumbee data in to make

sense with other Indian data. So it was in this kind of con-

y text that the hassle took place for me.

S: I'd be interested in the, each one of you's opinion in your

endeavors -,A A4 L e'vd as you continue to study the

Indians--what was the reaction from, say, these whites who

are the power structure in the county as you went about doing

your study. Personal opinions as to what you felt they thought

you were here doing, and what kind of cooperation did you

see from these people, and I might know the sources if at

all possible, tgo 4'- a4 i 0C ke e

__: I've got that one first. I don't know just what you want.

Not that we did try to solicit the cooperation of every group

when we came in. And ... we found the Indians to be moT co-


S: I don't know what I can make of that oney-given your study!

S: No, we were, to be honest, we were apprehensive three or four

years ago when we 1-I. everything down to Robeson County.

A naive view that we would blast in there and get lots of

whites' interviews done. We'll have trouble with the Indians

and the blacks and we'll just have to do the best we can.

Well, we blasted in here and got one hundred per cent support

from the Indians, a high amount of support from the blacks,

and poor support from the whites.

LUM 78A 38

: I'm not sure that your question is particularly appropriate to

Baltimore, but I will answer it in a couple f of ways anyhow.

Let me say as far as the Indians were concerned I really got

a very friendly reception. You know, until people got used to

me and thought perhaps I was a cop or something, until they

got used to me, but my university connection really paved

the way, and my gray hair paved the way. You know, Indians

feel respect for older people. My gray hair was in no way a

hindrance. Maybe it kept me from some of the bar drinking
that is,
parties,/they wouldn't invited me, but otherwise, my reception

was very good, very friendly and there were only a few

who I felt didn't trust me after a while and I didn't impose my-

self too strongly on them. I will say about some of the out-

siders though and their s.thoughts)ou know there are ot of

... in this area of Baltimore most of the shopkeepers are

not Indian. There are a few Indians here, most of 'em are not

Indian. I did talk with shopkeepers just to get what they

knew about, what they felt about and ayot of them were amazed

that I thought it worthwhile to study Indians. ,And there was

some problem with them and they had some problems with Indians

too. But by and large I don't really feel that they counted

very much as far as my being able to understand the Indians.

And I have made the point in my study and I think it would be

very good if the Indians were really to take over some of the

LUM 78A 39

stores in these, or really run some of the businesses there.

It would make a big difference in the area if the Indians ran

some of the businesses and so on from that area. Now I will

say about authorities in Baltimore though. Authorities in

Baltimore are very eager to get information about Indians. They

really are. They know there's a big Indian community there.

From time to time there have been difficulties with Indians.

The Indians when pushed by police have pushed back. And it

gets to be a problem as far as the police are concerned. They

were really, I got to talk to a number of authorities again

just to look into the question of trouble with the law, and see

the extent to which some of these officials connected with

the law, what they knew about Indians and so on. I was really

surprised at one thing--ta) while everybody knew about Indians

they really, they really didn't know many Indians. They really

did not have much experience with Indians. I can remember a

conversation i with the head of the probation department of the

main court in Baltimore. And he said he knew the Indians very

well, but then he looked up his records as to the number

of Indians who had been referred to him to put on probation in

1969. Of 313 cases, I remember the figure, there weri a ot

of Indians that he had altogether. That is, not many Indl^

the Indians are well-known. The authorities know them very

well. But not that many really get in trouble with the law.

But the administration generally is very interested in the

LUM 78A 40

Indians. I was amused at the opening meeting, the inaugural

of the Indian Center. The commissioner of police came to the

inaugural at the Indian Center and a number of other city

officials were there, too. So this is what I can tell you about

Baltimore anyhow.

- : In my work here in the county mostly I work with Indians and I

worked when you still had Indian schools. To do that I had to

clear and get permission from i Allen and he gave it.

And he gave it in good faith and did not in any way inhibit or

encumber my study. And I think this is an important thing

at least for me to remember. At a later date I sent some people

down to try and get some economic information frmt from

the county. And you have never seen so many papers lost!

It was just incredible. And so what I figured out is that when

a study is being done that the power structure perceives as

not threatening or harming them they're pretty cooperative.

But if they see or think that it might harm them, that it might

not just build up the Indians but build up the Indians at the

white power structure's expense, then they're going to resist.

I think this has been 'heL basically the pattern that I have

observed. I think certainly the, if I'm allowed to mention

it, the civil rights hearings that you had last September

tended to reinforce this, this kind of a conclusion. This,

where it's, if it doesn't matter, they're more than willing

LUM 78A 41

to cooperate; if it'll do some good but not cost them anything,

sure, they'll cooperate. But where they perceive it as a threat

to their position then the cooperation comes much harder. There

probably are some notable exceptions to this in the county

government though. This is, this is again one of these generali-

ties that I'm making that's describing that central part;

that there are, are people on other, on both extremes that are

quite different.

: I should say that most of my studies are of a historic nature

or have dealt with economic data most of which is a matter of

public record so that I could if I wished go in and demand to

see the titles or I could demand to see total assessments. I

would say that at the interpersonal level I have found

county officials to be most cautious and that understandably.

These are persons who m.mustz run for reelection; they don't
and be
want any frivolous / careless. statement/repeated outside 4CVk

>tCr AaL l tmrwith any group. And, and so I am an out-

sider to them. \,K -er grave and serious cleavages

between and among whites. And so, sometimes the sociologist

is not exactly a loved person by the power structure because

he represents potentially a threat.

,: Oh, one other thing I meant. I've never yet started a study

with the Lumbee Indians that I did not go through a two-three

hour period that I guess I could best describe as a Baptist

sermon about why I shouldn't be doing what I want to do.

LUM 78A 43

Usually quite well thought out and quite justified. But when

that is through and if I still want to do it and if they

agree to do it, boy, you've got somebody behind you 100T. This

has been, you know ... I mean they're really behind you, and

really going to help you. This is, they think may be a charac-

teristic thing tezh

S: I was just wanting to ask a question about a group of Indians,

why they just cluster, you know, like pa Av -

semethbag My experience 'cause this is my home, I was

brought up here, what brings about, what causes the Indians to

cluster like that you know? Don't you think that something

would cause them to cluster like that? io, come

up 'U1> St iot We ought not to be in that to start
lWaec \eafvl.e-e
with. This is what I had-in-mind. Why would, why would we want

to cluster together like that. Don't you think we was barred,

that the bars were put up on us that -e gh us to have to be

Wike that?

_: Oh, yeah, you've had ...well, what you're saying is wb, why

have the Indians sort of stayed in their group?

Q: Yeah, that's .

-: Well, you've had some legal bars on miscegenation, you had

economic bars. I think you maybe have also had a deep love

for the land. I mean, T.hes there's a thing-a-+thing about

being here and being in the land that's, that's special ...

>: ... that's what we're trying to tear down now. Si o\r Lis

keeping thatwa 1, Voce
i \ t1 lt ^ t' Z l> y hometown,
\ ___ __ I remember I' m from my hometown,

I remember, I didn't know wvoe- it was, he came from Balti-

more. He didn't come there and get with the >e4 Af T nY

ths 'A Yor.Y te_ He got somebody there to

write 6e wasn't jou might say he was Igd ja out on the

street somewhere. This is where a ot of people get their

information ht type of people. Then they begin to write

about the Indians.

: I remember that.

gi: I think, I think you need to watch this. He came to me at UA-cf,

this man came from Baltimore. He didn't get what I call 4 ke. p

-abva. our Indian people. He got what I cal; you know, i M

_: Yeah, and I think as a behavioral scientist it's important to get

that ";C.. .But if you're going to be honest about your

work you get the whole A.h4

Q: Yeah.

: You try and describe where most plaple are. Maybe you say, you

know if you say "most people are here, there's some over here,

and some over there. But most people are here." This is what

we try to do. -

Q: I might say, and get this I'm proud of myself. J LtrT WSpt-AL



I walked in Lumberton. I had on a white shirt, sleeves rolled

up, clean pants. This is what we are living with, what we

want to get rid of. I think all we Indians want ie is

the power structure to open the way, recognize (_ _

we are moving Joru 'rC I don't know 4ady
ow to- LL *g to you, but I know, you know, how to

put it

- : Yeah.

Q: I have

That's why we're
poor. We want the power machine to open up to us. Let us have

the same opportunities the white race has. I, I'd like to

walk down the streets and be just like another man. But we

haven't had that privilege. I Aad 8eat up there

at Lumberton, 1964, a A a e A a c4w L p eray -

CO coc^We 1 cI '11 W (Qf CMLUM '4eL L4 slA C"/
Lit"e fJ A IM-l fI$W LAn^ At oQ j / j i 7

But this is something we've had to come up to. I had a seat

up there and I called for an ice cream sundae, young white

girl 4k. V she act like she didn't hear me. Another white

man sat up there on his stool beside of me, he called for a

Coke. She waited on him. I said, "Lady, I called for an ice

cream sundae." She say;. "You'll have to get down and come

around here." I said, "What do you mean/9 A pt2 4 \i

She said, "we don't serve Indians across the counter."



I said, "Well, if my money's not welcome here, it's not welcome

around there." I thought it was in her you know, just a

young girl. I said, "Where's your manager?" She said, "Would

you like to speak to him?" I said I would. He wouldn't

come out) you know. who I was

nice business and so feath. I

said I have a seat. I said, then I called for an ice cream

sundae and I was refused to be served. And so I told ?him om

... two men came in. I

And so they said ... I said, what makes

me feel so bad ---we Indians always open the door for the

whites here, but when we come to a certain place

And I spoke to 'em ...

END SIDE 2, Tape.

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