Citation
Interview with Mr. and Mrs. Oscar Chavis, October 8, 1971

Material Information

Title:
Interview with Mr. and Mrs. Oscar Chavis, October 8, 1971
Creator:
Chavis, Oscar ( Interviewee )
Mrs. Chavis, Oscar ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:
Language:
English

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Florida History ( local )
Lumbee Oral History Collection ( local )
Spatial Coverage:
Lumbee County (Fla.)

Notes

Funding:
This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

Record Information

Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management:
Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/.
Resource Identifier:
LUM 252 ( SPOHP IDENTIFIER )

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INTERVIEWER: Adolph Dial

INTERVIEWEE: Mr. and Mrs. Oscar Chavis

October 8, 1971



D: Testing one, two. Testing one, two. Testing. Testing one, two.

Testing one, two. This is October the eighty, 1971. Adolph

Dial speaking. I'm here in the Green Grove Community at the home

of Mr. and Mrs. Oscar Chavis. Mr. Chavis, how long have you lived

in this area?

0: All my life.

D: All your life, how old are you?

0: I'm eighty-one.

D: You seem to be real active like a young fellow. Always had good

health?

0: Oh, yes, yes.

D: What do you contribute it to?

0: Farming, farming.

D: Farming, being active and so forth?

0: Yes.

D: How old are you Mrs. Chavis?

C : Well, the same with me. I'm living, well, I wasn't born right here

in Robeson. I was born over there in Bullard Station, but ever since

we've been married we've been right here, right in this community.

D: How many children are you the mother of?

C: Fourteen living children.

D: Fourteen living?

C: Yes.










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D: Any deceased?

C: Well, no.

D: Fourteen living children and how many of these children are away now?

C: Ten of them.

D: Ten live away.

C: Nine are in Detroit and one in Kansas City.

D: Nine living in Detroit...

C: Yes.

D: ...and one in Kansas City.

C: Yes.

D: And of your, any of your children marry Indians from any other place?

C: Well, one did, Doris, she married an Indian from Oklahoma and

and the one in Kansas married the white fellow.

D: Uh huh, and the rest married local Lumbee Indians.

C: Yes.

D: Mr. Chavis, you were born and reared in this vicinity.

0: Yes.

D: Uh huh.

0: In Prospect.

D: Yes, what are some of the old stories in the Back Swamp section here you

remember that your dad told you in his boyhood days, or do you remember

any from your great-granddad or some that might be handed down?

0: I don't remember anything about my great-grandfather, but he did run

a station up there at Branch.

D: Your great-granddad?










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0:

D: What was your, what was your dad's name?

0: Ricky Chavis.

D: And your granddad.

0: And...

D: Your great...

0: Well, my granddaddy not Chavis.

D: Uh huh. The, your grandfather, I mean was your, your father a farmer

also?

0: A farmer, yes, he was a farmer.

D: Did you have any one in any of your family, either one of you who went

down to Georgia to work around the turn of the century in the 1890s

somewhere there?

0: Well, my daddy, he used to work down there in that turpentine,

you know, things like that.

D: Seems like most of them went down there...

0: Yes.

D: ...back in those days. Do you remember any stories that he told you

about Georgia?

0: Oh, yes. he said there'd always be a lot of turpentine, you know,

the one that pulled the oxen, oxens, you know, with the little old

dump carts, things like that.

D: Yes, how did they go to Georgia.

0: Well, I believe they went down a train. Seeps to me like they did.










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D: Yes, some of them did go by train I think. Now did you hear him say

anything about education down in Georgia? What did the people here

do for education?

0: Well, I didn't get too much about that now.

D: Don't know whether they had schools down there for the Indians or not.

0: You know...

D: I think some of them said they had an Indian school. Did you hear any...

Mrs....

C: No, I sure didn't. I don't know a thing about that.

D: What was your father's opinion, did your father remember Henry Barry

Lowery?

0: Yes, he remembered-lhim all along.

C: What was his opinion of Henry Barry Lowery?

0: Well, he said he thought he was doing, doing the thing. he thought

was best_

D: In other words he felt he made a great contribution to this?

0: Yes, yes. That's why he'd it's what he had done,

you know.

D: Yes, did your father own some land in the, you say your father or

your grandfather, were you speaking?

0: My father.

D: Your father, and did, how did, do you remember what he paid for this

land per acre?

0: Two dollars a acre.










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D: Two dollars an acre and how did he get the two dollars an acre to

pay for it?

0: Well, he cut the timber off his land and move it down to a boatman

on the water, left it together just big long tags and nails and

things like that, move it down and that's the

way he paid for the land.

D: Uh huh. Did you ever hear any of them, did your father or your

grandfather or any of them ever go down to Georgetown? Did you

ever hear him talk about rafting logs down Lumbee River to George-

town, South Carolina?

0: No, didn't hear him say nothing like that.

D: How long would it take him to go to Boardman?

0: About a week, it would take him about a week,

D: What was at Boardman?

0: They had a big 50, mill down there and that's where they cut

timber.

D: Now how would they raft these logs? Would they have more than one

set together or how would they do it?

0: They'd put about twelve logs in a clamp and nail them together, you

know, and float them down. There'd be, get one nailed together, they'd

turn it loose and let it go down the river. If one would get lodged

down the river they'd have long craft poles, you know. that would hook

the of them and they'd pull it off

and afterwards he'd take that

D: Well, now when they take these twelve and put them together wduld

they have more than one set of twelve?









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0: Yes.

D: Would they carry more than twelve logs at a time is what I'm saying?

0: That's about all he could clamp, you know. Sometimes someof them

would stay.

D: You couldn't put a clamp, I mean clamp twelve together, then have twelve

following that and so forth, would you? You'd have to have men on each,

each twelve?

0: Well, they'd have pitching, have one pitching, you know, all of them

doing one log. They'd pick out some=right logs, the pitching parts

you know, put the lid and stuff on and then they'd all get on that

and keep the other logs in front of..., the kitching being behind,

you know.

D: The pitching would be behind.

0: Be behind and you'd keep the other logs in front of you going on down

the river. At that time the river wasn't like it is now.

It was more

D: Suppose they fished any on the way or hunted any on the way or...?

0: No, no, they didn't __on the way.

And they, whenever they got to Boardman they'd walk back home to...

they'd walk back home, walk from Boardman back home.

D: Do you know what timber was bringing then or logs or how would they

sell them, by the log or what?

0: By the log I think,or by the foot, they'd sell them by the foot, so

much a foot.

D: You never did hear them say how much they would receive for, you know,

one take down to Boardman.










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0: No, I never heard him say anything about that. And at that time there

were some long-leaf pines on the place and he'd get a lot of turpentine

out of the boxes, you know, and he shipped a lot of turpentine.

I don't know where he shipped it to now. He probably shipped it

to Georgia, somewhere down there. But he had barrels, you know,

to put it in and the children often played there. They'd tote

it out in buckets and poured it in the barrels and he'd take it

out of them boxes off these pines. So that's the way he managed

to make a living and take the farm.

D: Did you work in turpentine industry any in your young days?

6: No, sir.

D: Never worked. It had disappeared by then.

0: Yes, yes. I was here_

D: In other words most of the turpentine business was out by 1900 wasn't

it?

0: Yes, it was, it was, it was about_

D: Can you remember any logrolling back in your young days?

0: Plenty of it. Plenty of it, plenty of logrolling. I've gotten a lot

of

D: When, during your young days what seemed to be the, you know, what were

the young people doing for entertainment? What'd you do when you were

twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen years old?

0: Well, back then now they had big corn shuckings, you know, in different
places and we place placed pieces of corn, you know.
places and we tS v plplace4jplacedishuckk pieces of corn, you know.










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They had it piled up in big round piles and you'd get in a circle.

You get around them piles and we were shucking corn. They had a

big supper, too, things like that.

D: In other words most entertainment was work, huh?

0: Uh huh, it was work. It was work.

D: Is that right, Mrs. Chavis?

C: Yes, that was right.

0: It was work.

C: As far back as I can remember.

D: Most entertainment was work, uh huh. Who were, who were some of the

people in this community, you know, even before your time who were

some of the old leaders, you know, that, you know, were rather signi-

ficant as far as the church goes and the school and the community

and so forth?

0: Well, none of them...

D: Mr. Chavis, you belong to the Burnt Swamp Baptist Association now don't

you?

0: That's right. That's right.

D: Now the Burnt Swamp Baptist Association was organized in 1880. Have

you ever heard any stories about what the people were doing as far

as church work before 1880 or did they seem to be just doing nothing?

0: they done, done the farming as far as I know

by hoe, they done the farming by hoe. At that time, you see, they

were going to where they could work with hoes.

D: But they didn't seem to be going to church or any...










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0: Yes, they, they went to church now at Reedy Branch Church. That,

that was an old-time church.

D: Well, was the church at Reedy Branch before, you say, 1880. Let

me put it this way, you were born in what year?

0: in 1891.

D: Uh huh, did your father ever talk about going to, when was your father

born?

0: Well, I can't tell you that.

D: Now Reedy Branch Church was built around the turn of the century,

somewhere around there, is that right?

0:

D: Do you remember it?

0: Yes, around 1900.

D: Around 1900. What did they worship in before that parish?

0: is where they cut bushes and make them a big shed

and have boxes in there, you know?

D: Yes.

0: You have, to sit down on.

D: Did you hear your grandmother talk about going to church, Mrs. Chavis?

C: Well, no more than just going with her now, I can't remember.

D: Do you relate any of those experiences that, would you relate some of

them going with or walking her to church?

C: Well, then I remember one time that I was going with her to, to Burnt

Swamp and they's a having a revival meeting there and that was in the

old church, in the first one that was built, and I can remember well










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before we got to the church we could hear that great singing and going

on, and she got happy and was almost shouting and a praising the Lord

before she got there and she sit down just before she got the church

and put on her shoes. And so when we walked into church I can remem-

ber this So she

was, she was...

Dt: What was her name?

C: Her name was Maggie Jean Locklear.

D: Maggie Jean Locklear, uh huh. That was your great...

C: That was my, yes, grandmother.

D: Yes, your grandmother.

C: Yes, my grandmother. My mother's mother.

D: How far did you all walk to church?

C: Well, you know where, you know where Willy Locklear's home is, don't you?

D: Uh huh.

C: Beyond the Red Spring Highway?

D: Uh huh.

C: Well, that's where I walked from to, that's where we lived, and we

walked to Burnt Swamp.
,oL
D: Now this trip, you'd walk all the way from, you walk from Philadelphia

to Burnt Swamp.

C: Yes. I reckon that, that's the place where Mr. Charles teached school

on into, the church then was way on this side of there. You know where

the Street is cdon ?

D: Uh huh, uh huh.










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C: Well, you'd turn there to the left and it was far down the road at

that time where the old church was.

D: In other words you walked several miles a day to go to church.

C: Yes.

D: Take your shoes off you say?

C: Go barefooted.

D: Why would you go barefooted?

C: Well, I didn't have no shoes.

D: But I mean when she, you said something about your grandmother taking

hers off.

C: She would have hers off, too, because it was warm, you know, and we'd

go barefooted till...

D: And put them on when you...

C: ...when we got to the church.

D: ...got to the church. Uh huh.

C: And that's that's the way that we got a long way.

D: Mr. Chavis, did you attend school in your young days?

0: Well, what little bit I went to, I spent my here right across

the river and they had a little old school-house down there next to

Reedy Branch Church and that's where we children went to school,

eight miles.

C: How many, you walked eight miles to school? How many years did you

go to school?

0: Well, at that time, you know, they were having it just a few months.










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D: A few months, yes.

0: About two months along that time. And then that they moved up to

twelve months.

D: Where was this you went to school?

0: The Reedy Branch Church.

D: In the church?

0: No, the little old school house they had there.

D: Who taught? Who was one of the teachers?

0: Let's see, old man Steve Hammond, I believe, was a teacher at that

time and Mr. David He teached down at that same

school _

D: And who paid these people? Did the community pay them or who paid

them?

0: I believe the community paid them. I don't believe, they was paying

them at that time.

D: The community paid them, uh huh.

0: You've got to pay a smaller amount I don't know how

much it was.

D: What was your young days like in education? Where did you go?

CO: Well, I didn't get to go to school, well, because I never went a whole

session in all of my life. I'd just go maybe and a little bit I'd have

to work up until Thanksgiving and to get, to live, and then I'd go to

school one day here then and now. My mother wasn't married when I










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and she married

and...

D: Did you, did you in your young days, did your parents, you know,

did they want you to go or would they try to encourage you to go

or you just didn't want to go and if you wanted to stay home you

stayed at home or what were the real reasons?

C: Well, my mother wanted me to go to school, but we weren't able to

hardly__

D: How about yours, Mr. Hunt, or Mr. Chavis?

0: Well, I'll tell you, I maybe, maybe out of the

woods and then I really had work on the farm. That, you didn't get



D: What, what were yorowing here in your young days? Did you have

tobacco? Now you live in a tobacco, old tobacco section...

0: Yes.

D: ...did you grow tobacco as a boy?

0: Didn't grow no tobacco at that time.

D: When did you start growing tobacco in this section? When would you

say people in Robeson County started growing tobacco?

0: 1900.

D: About 1900 they started growing tobacco in this area. What, were they

curing it in tobacco barns then?

0: Curing in tobacco barns, yes.










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D: With wood and flue, they had the flue?

0: Yes.

D: As far back as 1900.

0: Uh huh.

C: Are you sure enough? Because I had_

D: How old were you before you went into the fields, to the fields to

work, Mrs. Chavis?

0: I was about eight years old.

D: How about you, Mrs. Chavis?

C: Well, I think I was about seven or eight, because I worked between



D: Would you pick cotton all day?

C: Cotton all day and anything else that I, I had to work for the white

man. Now that's the way it was I had to work by the day

by a bell.

D: Did you ever work for the white man, Mr. Chavis?

0: Oh,yes. Well, that's the one that bought this farm, '44.

D: You've been very successful, how did you do it, just working on the

farm and saving and having your children to work?

0: Yes, that's the way we done it. Just working on the farm and we got

this place here and worked, and farming now and the children would cut

tobacco on Saturday. That's the way we cut our tobacco n 6S0

Ie- rSaki /. c-nir










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D: What did tobacco bring a pound a way back when you was a boy? You

remember?

0: Well, around ten or fifteen cents.

D: Ten and fifteen cents a pound. What would you grow per acre back

in those days?

0: Well, I didn't care too much about that now.

D: I mean, you know, how much, you don't know how many pounds you could

make. You couldn't make it but you can now.

0: No, they planted it about a yard apart and they made about four

foot rows, something like that.

D: Probably draw in I'd say five or six tons and pound break them in.

0: Yes, yes, something like that, yes, yes.

D: Now you grow over a ton.

0: Oh, yes.

D: At eighty cents a pound.

0: Yes, I have made as high as twenty-eight, twenty-nine hundred pounds

at the acre. and nine hundred pounds.

D: What's the most dollars you ever made, break on a ?

0: Well, about twenty-two hundred dollars.

D: Twenty-two hundred dollars, yes. What, some of your outstanding

cotton pickers. Of course maybe you didn't have them down here

like you did in the Prospect community., what's the most you've, cotton

you've ever known an individual to pick in one day?

0: With these cotton pickers?

D: No, with a hand.










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0: Well, sometimes we'd pick ourselves a day here.

D: What about one individual?

0: One individual?

D: What's the most you ever picked?

0: Oh, I've picked about three hundred pounds a day.

D: You know anybody ever pick five or six hundred pounds?

0: No, I don't believe I have.

C: Archie .

D: Have you ever heard of anyone who could pick five or six hundred

pounds of cotton in a day?

C: Cicero Michel.

D: Who was it?

C: Cicero Michel.

D: Cicero Michel, is that his right name?

C: Yes, it is. He's dead now.

D: Cicero Michel, uh huh. Of course this meant starting before day

didn't it, and picking till night...

C: Right ...

D: ...often times.

C: ... how long.

D: Yes.

C:

D: It was quite something to see how much cotton you could pick in a day,

wasn't it?










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C: Yes, yes.

D: Yes, what were you paid for work?

0: Twenty-five cents a day.

D: When you ever worked by the day what were you paid, Mrs. Chavis?

C: Twenty-five cents when I was a young girl coming up.

D: You were always working for the white man.

0: Always working for the white man.

0: Worked for the white man.

D: Did you ever work for the Indian any?

C: Well, I have, you know,

D: But very, very little, very few able...

C: Not, not too much.

D: ...very few able to pay it, uh huh. Very few hired people to work.

Tell me something about your grandfather and your great-grandfather.

C: Well, my grandfather, he was a, he got all killed and he killed his

beef and saved the hides and he'd make leather out of the hides, and

he furnished the people leather, you know, to make their harnesses,

you know, and then and then he'd_

D: What was his name?

C: Nicholas Locklear.

D: Nicholas Locklear.

C: Nicholas Locklear, and I write to Uncle Willy, I told you, and he

decided Philadelphia was his home. Well, that's what he done and he

farmed, you know, too. But that was the main, that was what he do










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to help people out to keep them from buying, going to the store, or

maybe they didn't have it in that. Well, my great-grandfather,

he made shoes out of leather.

D: Oh, really ?

C: Yes, he made shoes. He'd make the shoes and he was a chief, now

they told me he was a chief over a whole lot of land there around

Philadelphia and back in...

D: What was his name?

C: I don't know what his name was.

D: That was your great-grandfather.

C: Great-grandfather. Now he was a chief and he would also make

shoes for people to wear and mom, mother said she never bought

a pair of shoes since she was a big girl, too big enough to work

them out. first .

D: That was your great-grandfather.

C: He was made chief. About Henry Barry, he said he was a man the day

where they ride by a tree and shoot his name on that tree with his

rifle or gun, ever what it would be he had. Shoot his name right

on that tree because he knowed he could that, Henry Barry Lowery.

I can't think of a whole lot of things that...

0: study, he stayed with old lady, with his daddy, called

her Rachael Hunt and the way we, we got our back there

in them days to spin them on a big spinning wheel, you know. I don't

whether you've seen them or not. We have them up there

Them big spinning wheels and she made our shoes, what we wore back










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there, the first pair of shoes I remember getting I was around ten

years old.

D: Did you go bare-footed in the winter, too, up all that time without

shoes?

0: Yes.... shoes she'd make.

She made them with you-know.

D: They wouldn't last long, would they?

0: No, they didn't last long and in wet weather we had to stay in the

house.

D: Stay in the house.

0: Stay in the house, you know. And that's, that's the way we got our

shoes made. She'd spin them and made our socks and everything.

Put a pair of shoes on getting, was around eight

years old. And that's all I know about that.

C: And my grandmother now, she, she spinned, she had a spinning wheel

and she'd spin her thread. I would hold the wheel many a time when

I was a child, whatever she'd tell me to do I'd do it. She'd spin

that thread and she'd make shelves and she'd make gloves and she'd

make socks and mittens, any, rugs, anything that she needed that's

the way that she done that, with the big old spinning wheel and I

imagine you've seen them. Well, she had one and I'd help here on

the thread.

D: Now you're children moved away many of them, how do you feel about

them moving away at the time they left and so forth?










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C: Well, I feel, I feel, I have to say I feel good.

But after Fred went and he got along so

good and made it so good and then the other children goed and they

made it so good,and then they kept going and making it good and still

making it good.

D: How many in Detroit?

C: Nine.

D: Nine, you have nine in Detroit. I went out there after the war, too.

C: Yes, all after the war. Better...

D: In other words better jobs, better opportunity, less prejudice and

so forth.

C:

D: Do you feel like now if your children were the same age at the time

they, if they had come up right today you think they'd probably have

stayed here, do you, Mr. Chavis?

0: I believe so to leave them around

here like_

C:

0: They have to go where they could make a living.

D: Yes.

C: They'd miss a lot, I reckon, in some ways.

D: We also have visiting here in the home of Mrs., Mr. and Mrs. Oscar

Chavis, their daughter. What is your name?

A: Doris Aitson.

D: Spell Aitson.










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A: A-i-t-s-o-n.

D: Where, where's your husband from?

A: Oklahoma, which is Mountainview, Oklahoma.

D; Did you marry Indian?

A: Indian, Indian.

D: ', Indian.

A: Right.

D: Now you live in the Indian community or you did for a good while. Do

you still live in Oklahoma?

A: No, I live in Detroit.

D: You live in Detroit, uh huh. Did you live in Oklahoma among the

a while?

A: A year and a half.

D: A year and a half. Now how would you...

C: he, he was there before.

D: ...Mrs. Aitson..,

C: To make, he was going to make a booth.

D: ...Mrs. Aitson, while you were in Oklahoma would you give us a kind

of a comparison of the tribe that you lived among and

the Lumbee Indians here? Would you elaborate on that?

A: Well, the only thing I found out is the main thing,

the people didn't care about workingas long as they were living

under the government, the government agency. They felt like, "Well,










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as long as I've got a little money coming in, that was it.

D: Were they happy-go-lucky?

A: Yes, they lived, they lived, they believed in living for today, not

tomorrow, not for the future like we are, preparing, you know, for

later. And that's why I think their health is much better than, than

the people here or people, I'd say, all over the United States, because

they do live a long, long time. And compared with the people here,

we believe in making our future or setting up a future and

toward that future and having what we can today and tomorrow and on

and on, where they just sit down.

D: Would you say...

A: Their Sundays out there, their weekdays out there were like our Sundays

here. They never knew because it was Sunday to them

all the time.

D: Sunday all the time.

A: All the time.

D: And of course, the standard of living is much lower than here.

A: Much lower. They didn't believe in having anything to live in as

long as it was a shack or maybe a hut or maybe they're wealthy people

that had oil wells. Now they had beautiful homes and cattle and

stuff like that. But the average person or the average Indian believed

in just as long as they had food, which was beans or boiled meat, and

a place to lie down, like it was on a horse built up boards of what,

they were satisfied, and I didn't care for that type of living.










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D: Educationally speaking, no, you didn't find many college graduates

while you were there.

A: You didn't find, they were dropouts. Very few, like my husband

went to school,and he went on his own. He had no help at all.

But the ones that had help, they didn't believe in going to school

or getting an education. But the ones that didn't have an education,

they had, they are the ones that can really do art work. Beautiful

art work, beautiful hand writing, beautiful penmanship when it comes

to that part even with no education, which they didn't have to have

an education for that. It was something, inheritance or something, were

gifted I guess.

D: Now you left Oklahoma and you're now in Detroit where you think maybe

as many two thousand Indians up in Detroit?

A: I think there are at least two thousand or maybe two fifty...

D: Two thousand...

A: ...five hundred, right.

D: And do, have you been to the Baltimore Indians?

A: Never.

D: Never. Are you all concentrated in one area in Detroit like they are

in Baltimore?

A: No, they're scattered out. All_

D: Do you know of any section where just lots of them are living together?

A: No.










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D: Scattered all over, uh huh. You feel that your children have a better

opportunity up there than they would in Robeson County?

A: Yes, when it comes to education I really do, I really do. But when

it comes to really getting out and getting away from trouble I think

they'd be better off down here.

D: Especially the drug traffic.

A: Right, uh huh, because it's all over the schools and everywhere now,

many places in Detroit.

D: Mr. Chavis, have you served on the local school boards of your school

here over the years?

0: I've served for about fifteen years I reckon on a school committee.

D: What was your feeling over the years as you served on this school

board? Did you feel like the Indians were getting equal opportunity

all the time or what was just your general feeling and what did

it look like with your work during that time?

0: Well, I feel like they weren't getting the correct jobs, what they

were supposed to have got, you know. They won't get their education,

what they're supposed to get.

D: In other words they weren't getting your amount in supplies and equipment

and so forth.

0: No, no, they weren't getting that_

D: In other words, was always getting after the white had taken.

0: Yes, yes.

D: You know, had gotten their part.

0: They got the best, you know.










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D: And then we got what...

0: We, we'd have to take the leavings.

D: Uh huh, what was left, yes.

0: That's right. That's the way it went back there.

D: Did that seem to bother you back in those days, back...?

0:

D: But it looked like nothing much you could do about it?

0: See, I was of getting our education. See, the white

folks was getting their education, you know.

and there was nothing you could do about it. That's the way it was.

D: Yes. ....feel like the white man felt that we owed them the best

and that we were supposed to work for them and so forth?

0: Right, sure, yes. They...

C: They felt exactly

0: They felt like we was just under slavery by them under them all the

time.

C: Some feel that way today, too.

0: And that's the way they feel now, too.

D: Kindly drifting, it's getting away from it today.

0: Getting away from it now.

D: People getting, what would say? The young generation is sharp and they

can, they are arising up in rebellion against this kind of thing.

They're not going to put up with it.

0: Yes, that's what they're doing. That's what they're doing....

C:










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0: They're coming out, they're coming out I'm glad to

see it.

D: Yes.

0: Improving like they are.

D: Uh huh, uh huh, uh huh. Did your children walk far, any of them

to catch a bus to go to school?

C: Oh, yes. They, they walked a good bit.

D: That story you just told me about them going, going to Pembroke?

C: Yes, they, they had to walk about four miles to catch the bus, and

when we lived here in '28, in '29 they walked from, from way over

here clear into Green Grove.

D: How far is Green Grove?

C: about five...

0: Let's see, I think it's about four...

C: Four or five miles.

0: About five miles, on his way they had to go.

C: The white people at that time had a bus,but the Indians didn't at

that time and our children had to walk.

D: You spoke of a bicycle, what'd you call a bicycle?

C: Wheel.

D: A wheel, uh huh. In other words later they rode a wheel.

C: Yes.

D: Yes, the wheel was, the early people called them all wheels rather than

a bicycle. Well, it's a wheel all right. Who were, would you consider










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some of the leaders of way back in the community, Mrs. Chavis?

C: Well, let me see now.

D: You mentioned Mr. Brevil Morgan, his first wife.

C: Yes, well, Mr. 's wife.

D: What was her name?

C: Miss Atelia.

D: Miss Atelia Morgan?

C: Yes.

D: Who was she before she married?

C: She was a Hunt.

D: Miss Atlelia Hunt

C: Atelia Hunt, Bertha's uncle. Well, now Bertha's mama, what was her

name?

D: Who was the more outstanding one?

C: Miss Terry Hunt. That was then Bertha Hunt's mother, Bertha Locklear

after she married Mr.Gaphland. You know the husband.

D: Now why would you consider her outstanding, not in the light of what

people do today but what she did then?

C: What she did then? Well...

D: And what was that?

C: Well, she was a good Christian woman, she was a good mother and she was

a good wife, she was good to everybody and she was kind and I just

loved her

D: She taught a Sunday school class?

C: Well, now she didn't, she didn't, she went to church and was a great










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Christian woman, but she, I don't remember her





Full Text

PAGE 1

LUM 252A Pa,ge 1. INT.EiWIEWER,: Adolph Dial dib INTERVIEWEE: Mr. and Mrs. Osca:t:' Cha.vis October 8, 1971 D: Testing one, two. Testing one, two. Testing. Testing one, two. Testing one, two. This is October the eighty, 1971. Adolph Dialspeaking. I'm here in the Green Grove Community at the home of Mr. and Mrs. Oscar Chavis. Mr. Chavis, how long have you lived in this area? O: All my life. D: All your 1:t;fe, how old are you? O: I'm eighty-one. D: You seem to be real active like a young fellow. Always had good health? , 0: Oh, yes, yes. D: Wha,t do you contribute it to? O: Farming, farming. D: Farming, being act'V'e and so ;forth? 0: Yes. D: How old are you tf;rs. Cha,vis? c : Well, the sa,me with me. I'm living, well, r wasn't born right here in Robeson. r was born over there in aullard Station, but ever since we've been married we've been right here, right fn this community. D: Howma,ny children are you the mother of? C: Fourteen living children. D: Fourteen living? C: Yes.

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LUM 252A Page 2. D: Any deceased? C: Well, no. dib D: Fourteen living children and how many of these children are away now? C: Ten of them. D: Ten live away. C: Nine are in Detroit and one in Kansas City. D: Nine living in Detroit C: Yes. D: and one in Kansas City. C: Yes. D: And of your, any of your children marry Indians from any other place? C: Well, one did, Doris, she married an Indian from Oklahoma and ----and the one in Kansas married the white fellow. D: Uh huh, and the rest married local Lumbee Indians. C: Yes. D:. Mr. Chavis, you were born and reared in this vicinity. O: Yes. D: Uh huh. O: In Prospect. D: Yes, what are some of the old stories in the Back Swamp section here you remember that your dad told you in his boyhood days, or do you remember any from your great-granddad or some that might be handed down? 0: I don't remember anything about my great-grandfather, but he did run a station up there at ______ Branch. D: Your great-granddad?

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LUM 252A Pa,ge 3. 0: dib D: What was your, what was your dad's name? O: Ricky Chavis. D: And your granddad. O: An'd D: Your great O: Well, my granddaddy ___________________ not Chavis. D: Uh huh. The, your grandfather, I mean was your, your father a farmer also? O: A farmer, yes, he was a farmer; D: Did you have any one in any of your family, either one of you who went down to Georgia to work around the turn of the century in the 1890s somewhere there? O: Well, my daddy, he used to work down there in that _____ turpentine, you know, things like that. D: Seems like most of them went down there O: Yes. D: back in those days. Do you remember any stories that he told you about Georgia? O: Oh, yes. he said there'd always be a lot of turpentine, you know, the one that pulled the oxen, oxens, you know, with the little old dump carts, things like that. D: Yes, how did they go to G~o.rgia,. O: Well, I believe they went down a train. Seei'ils to ,:nie like they did.

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-------------------~--------------------~ ------LUX 252A Pa,ge 4. dib D: Yes, some of them did go by train l think. Now did you hear him say anything about education down in Georgia? What did the people here do for education? 0: Well, I didn't get too much about that now. D: Don't know whether they had schools down there for the Indians or not. 0: You know D: I think some of them said they had an Indian school. Did you hear any Mrs C: No, I sure didn'-'t. I don't know a thing about that. D: What was your father's opinion, did your father remember Henry Barry Lowery? O: Yes, he remembereddhim all along. C: What was his opinion of Henry Barry Lowery? 0: Well, he said he thought he was doing, doing the thing . he thought was .. best -----------D: In other words he felt he made a great contribution to this? O: Yes, yes. That's why he'd _________ it's what he had done, you know. D: Yes, did your father own some land in the, you say your father or your grandfather, were you speaking? O: My father. D: Your father, and did, how did, do you remember what he paid for this land pep 1:3:cre? . 0: Two dollars a acre.

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LUM 252A :Page 5. dib D: Two dollars an acre and how did he get the two dollars an acre to pay for it? O: Well, he cut the timber off his land and move it down to a boatman on the water, left it togethen just big long tags and nails and things like that, move it down , and that's the --------way he paid for the land. D: Uh huh. Did you ever hear any of them, did your father or your grandfather or any of them ever go down to Georgetown? Did you ever hear him talk about rafting logs down Lumbee River to George town, South Carolina? O: No, didn't hear him say nothing like that. D: How long would it take him to go to Boardman? O: About a week, it would take him about a week~ D: What was at Boardman? O: They had a big 50.W mill down there and that's where they cut ------timber. D: Now how would they raft these logs? Would they have more than one set together or how would they do it? 0: They'd put about twelve logs in a clamp and nail them together, you know, and float them dow.t2. There'd be, get one nailed together, they'd turn it loose and let it go down the river. If one would get lodged down the river they'd have long craft poles, you know. that would hook the _____ of them and they'd pull it off --------------and afterwards he'd take that -------D: Well, now when they take these twelve and put them together would they have more than one set of twelve?

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LUM 252A Page 6. -:. O: Yes. dib D: Would they carry more than twelve logs at a time is what I'm saying? 0: That's about all he .could _clamp, you know. Sometimes some_of them !YO{!ld st~y~ D: You couldn't put a clamp, I mean clamp twelve together, then have twelve following that and so forth, would you? You'd have to have men on each, each twelve? 0: Well, they'd have kitching, have one kitching, you know, all of them doing one log. They'd pick out some~right logs, the kitching parts you know, put the lid and stuff on and then they'd all get on that and keep the other logs in front of , the kitching being behind, you know. D: The kitching would be behind. 0: Be behind and you'd keep the other logs in front of you going on down the river. At that time the river wasn't like it is now. ------It was more ______ D: Suppose they fished any on the way or hunted any on the way or ? O: No, no, they didn't ___________________ on the way. And they, whenever they got to Boardman they'd walk back home to they'd walk back home, walk from Boardman back home. D: Do you know what timber was bringing then or logs or: how would they sell them, by the log or what? O: By the log I think,01; by thefoot, theyld sell them by the foot, so much a foot. D: You never did hear them say how much they would 1;eceive for, you know, one take down to Boardman.

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LUM 252A Page 7. O: No, I never heard him say anything about that. And at that time there were some long-leaf pines on the place and he'd get a lot of turpentine out of the boxes, you know, and he shipped a lot of turpentine. I don't know where he shipped it to now. He probably shipped it to Georgia, somewhere down there. But he had barrels, you know, to put it in and the children often played there. They'd tote it out in buckets and poured it in the barrels and he'd take it out of them boxes off these pines. So that's the way he managed to make a living and take the farm. D: Did you work in turpentine industry any in your young days? 6: No, sir. D: Never worked. It had disappeared by then. O: Yes, yes. I was_ here _______ D: In other words most of the turpentine business was out by 1900 wasn't it? O: Yes, it was, it was, it was about _____________ D: Can you remember any logrolling back in your young days? O: Plenty of it. Plenty of it, plenty of logrolling. I've gotten a lot of ---------------D: When, during your young days what seemed to be the, you know, what were the young people doing for entertainment? What'd you do when you were twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen years old? O: Well, back then now they had big corn shuckings, you know, in different ,cl <)o 5;.rert ?-fl~-places and we~ place'C\~placedlshuck'4 pieces of corn, you know.

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---------~----LUM 252A Page 8. dib They had it piled up in big round piles and you'd get in a circle. You get around them piles and we were shucking corn. They had a big supper, too, things like that. D: In other words most entertainment was work, huh? O: Uh huh, it was work. It was work. D: Is that right, Mrs. Chavis? C: Yes, that was right. O: It was work. C: As far back as I can remember. D: Most entertainment was work, uh huh. Who were, who were some of the people ih this community, you know, even before your time who were some of the old leaders, you know, that, you know, were rather signi ficant as far as the church goes and the school and the connnunity and so forth? 0: Well, _none of them D: Mr. Chavis, you belong to the Burnt Swamp Baptist Association now don't you? O: That's right. That's right. D: Now the Burnt Swamp Baptist Association was organized in 1880. Have you ever heard any stories about what the people were doing as far 0: as church work befo;i::-e 1880 or did they $eetn to be just doing nothing? they done, done the farming as far as I know ----------by hoe, they done the farming by hoe. At that time, you see, they were going to where they could work __________ with hoes. D: But they didn't seem to be going to church or any

PAGE 9

LUX 252A Page 9. dib 0: Yes, they, they went to church now at Reedy Branch Church. That, that was an old-time church. D: Well, was the church at Reedy Branch before, you say, 1880. Let me put it this way, you were born in what year? O: __________ in 1891. D: Uh huh, did your father ever talk about going to, when was your father born? O: Well, I can't tell you that. D: Now Reedy Branch Church was built around the turn of the century, somewhere around there, is that right? O: D: Do you remember it? O: Yes, around 1900. D: Around 1900. What did they worship in before that parish? O: ---------'is where they cut bushes and make them a big shed and have boxes in there, you know? D: Yes. 0: You have, to sit down on. D: Did you hear your grandmother talk about going to church, Mrs. Chavis? C: Well, no more than just going with her now, I can't remember. D: Do you relate any of those experiences that, would you relate some of ,0','lh them going wi.th or walking\her to church? C; Well, then I remember one time that I was going with her to, to Burnt Swamp and they's a having a revival meeting there and that was in the old church, in the first one that was built, and I can remember well

PAGE 10

LUM 252A Page 10.
PAGE 11

LUM 252A Page 11. dib C: Well, you'd turn there to the left and it was far down the road at that time where the old church was. D: In other words you walked several miles a day to go to church. C: Yes. D: Take your shoes off you say? C: Go barefooted. D: Why would you go barefooted? C: Well, I didn't have no shoes. D: But I mean when she, you said something about your grandmother taking hers off. C: She. would have hers off, too, because it was warm, you know, and we'd go barefooted till D: And put them on when you C: when we got to the church. D: got to the church. Uh huh. C: And that's ______ , that's the way that we got a long way. D: Mr. Chavis, did you attend school in your young days? O: Well, what little bit I went to, I spent my _____ here right across the river and they had a little old school-house down there next to Reedy B~anch Church and that's where we children went to school, ________ eight miles. C: How many, you walked eight miles to school? How many years did you go to school? 0: Well, at that time, you know, they were having it just a few months.

PAGE 12

--------------------------~ ---------LUM; 252A Page 12. D: A feW' months, yes. dib 0: About two months along that time. twelve months. D: Where was this you went to school? 0: The Reedy Branch Church. D: In the church? ro(f\ And then\that they moved up to O: No, the little old school house they had there. ----D: Who taught? Who was one of the teachers? O: Let's see, old man Steve Hammond, I believe, was a teacher at that time and Mr. David He teached down at that same ------school -------D: And who paid these people? Did the community pay them or who paid them? 0: I believe the com.munity paid them. I don't believe, they was paying them at that time. D: The com.munity paid them, uh huh. 0: You've got to pay a smaller amount _______ _ I don't know how much it was. D: What was your young days like in education? Where did you go? Ct: Well, I didn't get to go to school, well, because I never went a whole ses,son in all of my life. I'd just go maybe and a little bit I'd have to work up until Thanksgiving and to get, to live, and then I'd go to school one day here then and now. My mother wasn't married when I

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LUM 252A Page 13. dib and she married -------------------------_________ and D: Did you, did you in your young days, did your parents, you know, did they want you to go or would they try to encourage you to go or you just didn't want to go and if you wanted to stay home you stayed at home or what were the real reasons? C: Well, my mother wanted me to go to school, but we weren't able to hardly _____ _ D: How about yours, Mr. Hunt, or Mr. Chavis? 0: Well, I'll tell you, I maybe, maybe out of the --------woods and then I really had work on the farm. That, you didn't get D: What, what were yo~~rowing here in your young days? Did you have tobacco?. Now you live in a tobacco, old tobacco section 0: Yes. D: did you grow tobacco as a boy? O: Didn't grow no tobacco at that time. D: When did you start growing tobacco in this section? When would you say people in Robeson County started growing tobacco? O:. 1900. -------D: About 1900 they staTted growing tobacco in this area. What, were they curing it in tobacco barns then? 0: Curing in tobacco barns, yes.

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LUM 252A Page 14. dib D: With wood and flue, they had the flue? O: Yes. D: As far back as 1900. O: Uh huh. C: Are you sure enough? Because I had -------D: How old were you before you went into the fields, to the fields to work, Mr~. Chavis? 0: I was about eight:years old. D: How about you, Mrs. Chavis? C: Well, I think I was about seven or eight, because I worked between D: Would you pick cotton all day? C: Cotton all day and anything else that I, I had to work for the white man. Now that's the way it was ____ __:I had to work by the day by a bell. D: Did you ever work for the white man, Mr. Chavis? 0: Oh,yes. Well, that's the one that bought this farm, _______ '44. D: You've been very successful, how did you do it, just working on the farm and saving and having your children to work? O: Yes, that's the way we done it. Just working on the farm and we got this place here and worked, and farming now and the children would cut tobacco on Saturday. That's the way we cut our tobacco _____ ___,6~n..__,,.5=n1llfc1o7, Safu rclau I

PAGE 15

LUM 252A Page 15. dib D: What did tobacco bring a pound a way back when you was a boy? You remember? 0: Well, around ten or fifteen cents. D: Ten and fifteen cents a pound. What would you grow per acre back in those days? O: Well, I didn't care too much about that now. D: I mean, you know, how much, you don't know how many pounds you could make. You couldn't make it but you can now. O: No, they planted it about a yard apart and they made about four foot rows, something like that. D: Probably draw in I'd say five or six tons and pound break them in. O: Yes, yes, something like that, yes, yes. D: Now you grow over a ton. O: Oh, yes. D: At eigh_ty cents a pound. 0: Yes, I have made as high as twenty-eight, twenty-nine hundred pounds at the acre. and nine hundred pounds. ----------D: What'a the most dollars you ever made, break on a _________ ? 0: Well, about twenty-two hundred dollars. D: Twenty-two hundred dollars, yes. What, some of your outstanding cotton pickers. Of course maybe you didn't have them down here like you did in the Prospect connnunity, what's the most you've, cotton you've ever known an individual to pick in one day? O: With these cotton pickers? D: No, with a hand.

PAGE 16

LUM 252A Page 16. dib O: Well, sometimes we'd pick ourselves a day here. D: What about one individual? O: One individual? D: What's the most you ever picked? O: Oh, I've picked about three hundred pounds a day. D: You know anybody ever pick five or six hundred pounds? O: No, I don't believe I have. C: _______ Archie ___________ _ D: Have you ever heard of anyone who could pick five or six hundred pounds of cotton in a day? C: Cicero Michel. D: Who was it? C: Cicero Michel. D: Cicero Michel, is that his right name? C: Yes, it is. He's dead now. D: Cicero Michel, uh huh. Of course this meant starting before day didn't it, and picking till night C: Right ___________ _ D: often times. C: -------------------'how long. D: Yes. C: D: It was quite something to see how much cotton you could pick in a day, wasn't it?

PAGE 17

LUM 252A Page 17. C: Yes, yes. dib D: Yes, what were you paid for work? O: Twenty-five cents a day. D: When you ever worked by the day what were you paid, Mrs. Chavis? C: Twenty-five cents when I was a young girl coming up. D: You were always working for the white man. O: Always working for the white man. O: Worked for the white man. D: Did you ever work for the Indian any? C: Well, I have, you know, D: But very, very little, very few able C: Not, not too much. D: very few able to pay it, uh huh. Very few hired people to work. Tell me something about your grandfather and your great-grandfather. C: Well, my grandfather, he was a, he got all killed and he killed his beef and saved the hides and he'd make leather out of the hides, and he furnished the people leather, you know, to make their harnesses, you know, and then _______ , and then he'd __________ _ D: What was his name? C: Nicholas Locklear. D: Nicholas Locklear. C: Nicholas Locklear, and I write to Uncle Willy, I told you, and he decided Philadelphia was his home. Well, that's what he done and he farmed, you know, too. But that was the main, that was what he do

PAGE 18

LUM 252A Page 18. dib to help people out to keep them from buying, going to the store, or maybe they didn't have it in that. Well, my great-grandfather, he made shoes out of leather. D: Oh, really? C: Yes, he made shoes. He'd make the shoes and he was a chief, now they told me he was a chief over a whole lot of land there around Philadelphia and back in D: What was his name? C: _______ , I don't know what his name was. D: That was your great-grandfather. C: Great-grandfather. Now he was a chief and he would also make shoes for people to wear and mom, mother said she never bought a pair of shoes since she was a big girl, too big enough to work them out. _____ first ____ _ D: That was your great-grandfather. C: He was made chief. About Henry Barry, he said he was a man the day where they ride by a tree and shoot his name on that tree with his rifle or gun, ever what it would be he had. Shoot his name right on that tree because he knowed he could that, Henry Barry Lowery. I can't think of a whole lot of things that -------study, he stayed with old lady, with his daddy, called -----O: her Rachael Hunt and the way we, we got our back there ------in them days to spin them on a big spinning wheel, you know. I don't whether you've seen them or not. We have them up there __________ _ Them big spinning wheels and she made our shoes, what we wore back

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LID{ 252A. Page 19. dib there, the first pair of shoes I remember getting I was around ten years old. D: Did you go bare-footed in the winter, too, up all that time without shoes? 0: Yes.... shoes she'd make. ----------------------She made them with _______ you-know. D: They wouldn't last long, would they? 0: No, they didn't last long and in wet weather we had to stay in the house. D: Stay in the house. O: Stay in the house, you know. And that's, that's the way we got our shoes made. She'd spin them and made our socks and everything. Put a pair of shoes on _________ ___,getting, was around eight years old. And that's all I know about that. C: And my grandmother now, she, she spinned, she had a spinning wheel and she'd spin her thread. I would hold the wheel many a time when I was a child, whatever she'd tell me to do I'd do it. She'd spin that thread and she'd make shelves and she'd make gloves and she'd make socks and mittens, any, rugs, anything that she needed that's the way that she done that, with the big old spinning wheel and I imagine you've seen them. Well, she had one and I'd help here on the thread. D: Now youre children moved away many of them, how do you feel about them moving away at the time they left and so forth?

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LUM 252A Page 20. dib C: Well, I feel, I feel, I have to say I feel good. But after Fred went and he got along so good and made it so good and then the other children goed and they made it so_good,and then they kept going and making it good and still making it good. D: How many in Detroit? C: Nine. D: Nine, you have nine in Detroit. I went out there after the war, too. C: Yes, all after the war. Better D: In other words better jobs, better opportunity, less prejudice and so forth. C: D: Do you feel like now if your children were the same age at the time they, if they had come up right today you think they'd probably have stayed here, do you, Mr. Chavis? O: I believe so to leave them around ----------------here like ---------C: O: They have to go where they could make a living. D: Yes. C: They'd miss a lot, I reckon, in some ways. D: We also have visiting here•in-the home of Mrs., Mr. and Mrs. Oscar Chavis, their daughter. What is your name? A: Doris Aitson. D: Spell Aitson.

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LUM 252A Page 21. A: A-i-t-s-o-n. dib D: Where, where's your husband from? A: Oklahoma, which is Mountainview, Oklahoma. D; Did you marry Indian? A: Indian, Indian. ---D: 0 ... ~-. Indian. ---A: Right. D: Now you live in the Indian connnunity or you did for a good while. Do you still live in Oklahoma? A: No, I live in Detroit. D: You live in Detroit, uh huh. Did you live in Oklahoma among the a while? -------A: A year and a half. D: A year and a half. Now how would you C: _________ he, he was there before. D: Mrs. Aitson C: To make, he was going to make a booth. D: Mrs. Aitson, while you were in Oklahoma would you give us a kind of a comparison of the _______ tribe that you lived among and the Lumbee Indians here? Would you elaborate on that? A: Well, the only thing I found out is the main thing, ------the people didn't care about workins ,, as long as they were living undel:' the government, the government agency. They felt like, "Well,

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Lilll 252A Page 22. dib as long as I've got a little money coming in, that was it. D: Were they happy-go-lucky? A: Yes, they lived, they lived, they believed in living for today, not tomorrow, not for the future like we are, preparing, you know, for later. And that's why I think their health is much better than, than the people here or people, I'd say, all over the United States, because they do live a long, long time. And compared with the people here, we believe in making our future or setting up a future and -----toward that future and having what we can today and tomorrow and on and on, where they just sit down. D: Would you say A: Their Sundays out there, their weekdays out there were like our Sundays here. They never knew ________ because it •was Sunday to them all the time. D: Sunday all the time. A: All the time. D: And of course, the standard of living is much lower than here. A: Much lower. They didn't believe in having anything to live in as long as it was a shack or maybe a hut or maybe they're wealthy people that had oil wells. Now they had beautiful homes and cattle and stuff like that. But the average person or the average Indian believed in just as long as they had food, which was beans or boiled meat, and a place to lie down, like it was on a horse built up boards of what, they were satisfied, and I didn't care for that type of living.

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LUM 252A Page 23. dib D: Educationally speaking, no, you didn't find many college graduates while you were there. A: You didn't find, they were dropouts. Very few, like my husband went to school,and he went on his own. He had no help at all. But the ones that had help, they didn't believe in going to school or getting an education. But the ones that didn't have an education, they had, they are the ones that can really do art work. Beautiful art work, beautiful hand writing, beautiful penmanship when it comes to that part even with no education, which they didn't have to have an education for that. It was something, inheritance or something, were gifted I guess. D: Now you left Oklahoma and you're now in Detroit where you think maybe as many two thousand Indians up in Detroit? A: I think there are at least two thousand or maybe two fifty D: Two thousand A: five hundred, right. D: And do, have you been to the Baltimore Indians? A: Never. D: Never. Are you all concentrated in one area in Detroit like they are in Baltimore? A: No, they're scattered out. All '---------D: Do you know of any section where just lots of them are living together? A: No.

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LUM; 252A Page 24.
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LUM 252A Page 25. D: And then we got what dib O: We, we'd have to take the leavings. D: Uh huh, what was left, yes. 0: That's right. That's the way it went back there. D: Did that seem to bother you back in those days, back ? 0: D: But it looked like nothing much you could do about it? 0: See, r was _________ of getting our education. See, the white folks was getting their education, you know. and there was nothing you could do about it. That's the way it was. D: Yes feel like the white man felt that we owed them the best and that we were supposed to work for them and so forth? o: Right, sure, yes. They C: They felt exactly -------0: They felt like we was just under slavery by them under them all the C: Some feel that way today, too. 0: And that's the way they feel now, too. D: Kindly drifting, it's getting away from it today. 0: Getting away from it now. D: People getting, what would say? The young generation is sharp and they can, they are arising up in rebellion against this kind of thing. They're not going to put up with it. 0: Yes, that's what they're doing. That's what they're doing C: ---------------------------------

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LUM 252A Page 26. dib 0: They're coming out, they're coming out ------see it. D: Yes. O: Improving like they are. I'm glad to D: Uh huh, uh huh, uh huh. Did your children walk far, any of them to catch a bus to go to school? C: Oh, yes. They, they walked a good bit. D: That story you just told me about them going, going to Pembroke? C: Yes, they, they had to walk about four miles to catch the bus, and when we lived here in '28, in '29 they walked from, from way over here clear into Green Grove. D: How far is Green Grove? C: ________ about five O: Let's see, I think it's about four C: Four or five miles. ~= About five miles, on his way they had to go. C: The white people at that time had a bus,but the Indians didn't at that time and our children had to walk. D: You spoke of a bicycle, what'd you call a bicycle? C: Wheel. D: A wheel, uh huh. In other words later they rode a wheel. C: Yes. D: Yes, the wheel was, the early people called them all wheels rather than a bicycle. Well, it's a wheel all right. Who were, would you consider

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LUM 252A Page 27. dib some of the leaders of way back in the community, Mrs. Chavis? C: Well, let me see now. D: You mentioned Mr. Brevil Morgan, his first wife. C: Yes, well, Mr. 's wife. D: What was her name? C: Miss Atelia. D: Miss AteJ.ia Morgan? C: Yes. D: Who was she before she married? C: She was a Hunt. D: Miss Atlelia Hunt C: Atelia Hunt, Bertha's uncle. Well, now Bertha's mama, what was her name? D: Who was the more outstanding one? C: Miss Terry Hunt. That was then Bertha Hunt's mother, Bertha Locklear after she married Mr.Gaphland. You know the husband. D: Now why would you consider her outstanding, not in the light of what people do today but what she did then? C: What she did then? Well D: And what was that? C: Well, she was a good Christian woman, she was a good mother and she was a good wife, she was good to everybody and she was kind and I just loved her -------D: She taught a Sunday school class? C: Well, now she didn't, she didn't, she went to church and was a great

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~--------------------------------------------. LUM 252A Page 28. dib Christian woman, but she, I don't remember her -------------