Diary of Reginald W. Quinn, May 20, 1965 -- June 16, 1967, Final Copy

Material Information

Diary of Reginald W. Quinn, May 20, 1965 -- June 16, 1967, Final Copy
Quinn, Reginald W. ( Interviewee )
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program
Publication Date:


Subjects / Keywords:
Seminole Indians ( fast )
Seminoles -- Florida
Seminole Oral History Collection ( local )
Native Peoples of the Americas ( local )
Seminole Indian Reservation ( local )
Seminole Tribe of Florida ( fast )
Diaries ( aat )


Scope and Content:
This record holds two versions of the same diary. One is a mark-up version with original notes and correction and the other is a polished and clean copy with no note. This is the clean copy.
This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

Record Information

Source Institution:
UF Samuel Proctor Oral History Program
Holding Location:
P.K. Yonge Library of Florida History, UF
Rights Management:
Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license:
Resource Identifier:


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Full Text
In cooperation with The Seminole Tribe of Florida
Diary of Reginald W. Quinn
May 20, 1965---June 16, 1967

Q: This is the diary of Reginald W. Quinn, former superintendent
of the Seminole Indian Reservation, and begins on May 20, 1965.
At about ten o'clock I called the agency and told them that
I would report there for duty today as I wanted an opportunity
to talk with the superintendent who was scheduled to leave the
following week. It was the thought of the people in Washington
that it would be beneficial for me to come a few days before
the superintendent left, so I'd get the benefit of his experi-
ences and he could brief me on the major problems that he was
familiar with and could fill me in so that there would be very
little lag in the changing of the guard. But Mr. Walthrop told
me that a luncheon was being given in his honor that day and
invited me to come, so I did. I did go to the luncheon, and it
was a very nice affair. The employees of the agency made a few
speeches and expressed their appreciation for all the good work
that Mr. Walthrop had done, expressed appreciation for his con-
cern with their welfare and his ability to provide the kind of
administrative direction that leads to good programs. As a part-
ing gift they gave him a watch, and they gave his wife a few
presents. After the luncheon we went back to the agency, and Mr. Walthrop and I
then spent a few hours talking over the Seminole situation. Mr. Walthrop
told me that at the time there was only
one problem which was of any great concern and that was the cat-
tle program and the necessity to finance that program. He said
that this was going to probably occupy my time to great extent,
that there had been much water under the bridge, and that Jim Hale was eminently
qualified to give me excellent staff assist-
ance on this problem. So he didn't feel that it was necessary
for him to go into it too much. Actually, Mr. Walthrop spent
most of the time socializing, and I tried several times to get
him back on the subject of the agency and trying to get a few
things lined up at least in my mind. I wanted to talk with him
about the effectiveness of the tribal government, the various
reservation programs, such as education and welfare, resource
management, matters of that kind, credit. But Mr. Walthrop wasn't
disposed. He kept referring me to first Jim Hale on resource
matters, and on tribal projects and programs to Sam Burns, who
was the credit officer. Mr. Davis, also, was prominent in his
views of the people who could be very helpful to me. So I gath-
ered from just talking with him that Jim Hale, land operations
officer, Bob Davis, the realty officer, and Sam Burns, credit

officer, were the three people who I could rely on to give me
the data and background information and who could also give me
advice as to what direction we ought to go. I tried to discuss
some of the social problems, but Mr. Walthrop knew that the
tribe was anxious for his removal. They didn't charge him with
anything, but they were anxious to have him replaced. Mr. Walthrop was the
assistant of Virgil Harrington when he was superintendent, and Mr. Harrington,
of course, was an extremely
popular superintendent with the Seminoles. He was a man who had
a great deal of personality and who had a great deal of sympathy
for the Indians and the Indian situation. He wasn't loath to ex-
press himself on those subjects, and the Indians had a very fond
regard for him. Of course, in comparison Mr. Walthrop was more
business-like and more formal and less'amenable to relationships
with Indian groups and with the leaders. Therefore he fell a lit-
tle short in their view as to what a superintendent should be.
One of the things that happened was embarassing. Somebody at
the agency leaked information to the press about my salary, which
was $7000 or $8000 a year more than Mr. Walthrop was getting. Of
course, the newspapers made a comparison of our salaries, which
was embarassing both for Mr. Walthrop and for me. Of course, we
didn't know who did that, and I really didn't make any effort to
try to find out, but it was something that was quite unusual, be-
cause normally we don't publish facts about people's grade and
their salary levels and things of that kind. We talk in terms of
their responsibilities and authorities and so on. But we don't
tell the public, or we didn't make a practice of telling the pub-
lic, how much they earned.
Tribal leaders were quite happy with my arrival. They had a
quiet dinner over at the Round Table Restaurant that night. The
chairman, the president, secretary-treasurer, and some of the
reservation representatives were in and so we kind of had a round
table meeting that night. And they seemed to be happy that I was
there. Bill Osceola was president of the board of directors, and
Billy Osceola was chairman of the tribal councils. Laura May Osceola
was secretary and treasurer. These three had been quite active in
asking that I be transferred down here. Of course, I'm sure that
many of the employees at the agency knew that. I'm sure that at least
Mr. Walthrop's friends resented it. So the first day was sort of a

mixed up affair. We didn't get accomplished what I'd hoped
we would get accomplished, and I decided at that point that
there was no need for me to further attempt to get informa-
tion because if Mr. Walthrop was willing to give me the be-
nefit of his opinions and information that he'd gathered,
he'd do so. If he didn't, I wasn't going to press him.
On the 21st, which was Friday, I went down to the agency
and met most of the employees, sat around talking with some
of them that I had known before, and making myself acquainted
with other people who were new to me. So I spent most of the
morning doing that. During the process of the morning I talk-
ed with Mr. Davis and I told him that I was quite anxious to
find a house, that I wanted to have my wife and family down
here as soon as possible, and that I knew it was going to
take a little time to get the house bought and the titles
transferred and so on. I wanted to get started on that. I asked
him if he knew any of the real estate people that he could re-
commend to me, and he said that he did and that he would get in
touch with some of those folks and let me know a little later on
if anything was available over the weekend that I could see. So
we let it go at that. Mr. Walthrop didn't come down to the office
during the morning and he wasn't there after lunch, so I thought
maybe he was home packing and getting ready to go. I felt maybe
it'd be a good idea for me to take Mr. Davis and go out and see
if we could see some of those houses and get away from the agency
for a little while and let things take their course of action.
We went over to Stockton, Whatley, and Davin and they had five
or six houses that they thought would be adequate, meet my re-
quirements. Very fortunate for me, the second one I looked at
was just perfect for us. Just the right size, everything was just
fine, and the price was what we were expecting to pay. So I made
arrangements to make a down payment and a contract was drawn up
and I was told that as soon as the contract was signed that they
would ask the owners if she had any objection to my moving in.
Not that my furniture was here or would be here soon, but my
family was still in the apartment in Washington and I didn't ex-
pect them to abandon that place and come down until I found some
place for them to live. I would be camped out more or less. Well,
Mr. Ring was our real estate salesman, and he got in touch with
the owners and told them about the contract, sent it up to them
and they said, well, fine, they'd like to have somebody in the
house. They didn't like the idea of it standing vacant and so on.

So when they signed the contract and it looked pretty much
like everything was going to go through, why, I decided that
I'd move in. But I was very fortunate in that the very first
day I went out looking for a house I found one. So Friday
afternoon I went back to the Yankee Clipper, where I was stay-
ing, and Mr. Davis and a couple of the fellows invited me to
play golf the next day. I had my clubs here so I agreed. I
went out and played a round of golf with them and got a chance
to talk with them, get acquainted a little more, and they were
very personable, likeable fellows. And I thought we were going
to get along fine.
On Monday, May 24, I held my first staff meeting at the agency.
I told them that I would have to be briefed on the problems that
each of the various branches of the agency had, and the tools that
they had to work with, and the funds, so on, personnel. So that
I'd get an idea of how each branch was going to manage its work.
I told them in essence that I was from Washington, central office.
I'd been there for a number of years, and all the time that I had
worked in Washington I had failed to find any magic formula which
would offer a criteria to resolve all problems. We were going to
have to coordinate our efforts, we were going to have to have good
communications, we were going to have to have the ability to get
together and talk problems over. Some problems were going to be a
lot more difficult than others, and some branches were going to be
much more involved problems than they would normally be, particu-
larly in situations where a problem impinged on more than one
branch. I told them that it would be my policy to keep my door open;
in other words, I wasn't going to closet myself in that office and
spend very much time reading mail. I wanted to talk with people and
get some insights into what was going on, and get as much informa-
tion as I possibly could as fast as I could get it. I was willing
to participate in the staff meetings and it was the first time that
they had ever been in on agency staff meetings. One of the reasons,
I told the group, was that it was important for the tribe and the
agency to know what the other was doing in the effort to coordinate
the things that we wanted to get done for the Seminole people. Well,
I called then on all of the branch chiefs, one by one, to give me
a resume of the projects that they had under immediate considera-
tion, something that had to be done right away, that they were work-
ing on. Then I asked them to give me a line-up on the secondary pro-
blems that they had and also the problems that they would hope to
get to in the not-too-distant future. I also told them that we had
to have some sort of a briefing of everybody so that, for instance,

the credit people would know what the land operations people
were doing. Land operations and the tribal councils, or tri-
bal board of directors, should be working together on a pro-
ject, and they both ought to know the plans of the other so
that these things can mesh. Well, we spoke on the need for
coordination and the need for good communication to some ex-
tent. Everybody agreed that this was something that was im-
portant and it to some extent had been lacking. I didn't want
to get into too-much detail the first day. I wanted to give
each branch chief an opportunity to express himself so that
they could tell me what they thought was important, and I also
wanted the tribal leaders to hear what projects the agency peo-
ple were working on and so on. Many of those projects were be-
ing coordinated. The agency and the board of directors were
working on projects, and the agency and the tribal council were
working on projects. So that it was a good opportunity for us
to sit down and talk to each other for a while. After the con-
ference was over with, Sam Burns and Jim Hale came in to talk
to me. They told me that in March of this year the tribal mem-
bers had sold 184 calves and that this meant a loss of $6,000
or $7,000 in grazing fees. They wanted to know what I was going
to do about it, and they just about put it to me in those terms.
I didn't want to get in that specific a detail that quick, par-
ticularly on the basis of hearsay information, until I'd gotten
a little bit better briefing on what was going on. Then when I
did have that kind of a briefing I would be in a better position
to do something about it. I told them that in essence. They were
a little dubious. They said, "Well, the superintendent should be
able to settle these kind of problems, can't be put off too long,
you know." And I said, "Well, how long have they been going on?
I said you tell me that since March these cattle have been sold.
Have you broached this with the superintendent? Have you told the
superintendent about it?" And they said, "Well, yes, they had
talked to the superintendent." I said, "What did he say?" And Sam
Burns kind of laughed and he said, "Well, he said wait until you
got here."
Bill and Billy asked to come over and see me, too, that morn-
ing, and so I invited them over and we got to talking about it
and I mentioned the sale of calves. They laughed and they said,
yeah, that that went on, and those calves when they were sold
before the fall, they weren't counted and therefore we did lose
the grazing fees on those calves. But they also said the Indian

people needed that money and that's why they sold them. They
said that one of the biggest problems on the reservation,
particularly at Brighton and Big Cypress, was the fact that
the Indian people didn't have any work, that there's just noth-
ing for them to do. Certain times of the year, in the fall,
they go out and work in the fields or they work for the county
and the state in seeding operations along the rights of way. But
there wasn't any real employment available to the Seminoles and
this caused a considerable amount of problems because the fami-
lies didn't have regular income. They couldn't do everything they
wanted to do or should do. For instance, one of the problems in-
volved in families like this is the children go to school, part-
icularly those going to public school at Moore Haven and Clewis-
ton. Those kids didn't have decent clothes to wear, sometimes
they didn't have shoes, and they most generally never had any
spending money. Therefore they were kind of set apart from the
other kids. This caused more trouble and caused the families to
be concerned about their young people.
But many of the problems, social ills, were related directly
to the low income-producing ability of the Seminole families on
those two reservations. So Bill and Billy were real concerned
about this, and I told them I was going to have to work something
out. Even if we have to manufacture some sort of employment, we're
going to have to do something to get those people busy and keep
them working because people had to have a source of income. Then
Billy reported to me that Howard Roloff was robbing Indian graves
on the Brighton reservation and that he was also trading with Ind-
ians. And thathe had some pretty sharp practices. He just about
took what he wanted in the way of Indian artifacts and gave a very
small portion of their value. He [Billy] wanted something done a-
bout that. He told me that something should be done to stop
this. I agreed that if this is true and this is what he's doing,
we have to put a stop to it. I'd call him in and talk to him. I
also told them that I wanted to check with law enforcement people
in Washington to see what specifically we could charge him with
and see if I could get some help from those people, because this
was not a normal, routine law-and-order case. This was a little
bit unusual. So we agreed I would do something about that.
On May 25 I called Washington and I talked with Bill Wilson
who was the assistant chief of the branch of law and order. I
told him about Roloff and the things that were happening, and I
asked him if he could advise us as to how to proceed. He said he
would look into the matter and give us some more specific infor-

mation on it so that we could take some effective action. Mr.
A. J. Ryan, who was the tribal attorney, was at that time in
the state legislature and the problem of dividing the state
reservation had come up in the legislature. And he wanted Bill
Osceola and Billy Osceola and me and Reginald Miller from the
Miccosuki reservation, and Buffalo Tiger, chairman of the Mic-
cosuki tribe, to go up to Tallahassee Thursday and do whatever
was necessary to implement the action by the legislature to
divide up the reservation, which had been a bone of contention
between the trail group and the reservation groups.
Later that day Mr. Jet and Mr. Adams of the Public Housing
Administration came in and wanted to look the Big Cypress and
Brighton reservations over. Billy agreed to take them up there
and show them around. The agency was chartering air services,
so I agreed that we would provide a plane so that they could,
you know, do the whole job in one day, get that thing taken
care of because it was important for us to have them take a
look at our living conditions of the Seminoles, take a look at
the traditional Seminole Indian camps and see how widespread
this situation is. Because the Indians lived in pretty primi-
tive conditions, without any sewage of any kind, usually water
was from a sandpoint, and no electricity, and it was quite prim-
itive. So this was quite a serious health problem. We were in-
terested, at least I was interested, in getting their views as
to what they thought the chances of the Seminoles were to part-
icipate in the housing program. Later that afternoon I was in-
vited to a tea being given by the Friends of the Seminoles,
which turned out to be their semi-annual board meeting. The
group asked me to speak to them, and I told them that I was hap-
py to be down here working with the Seminoles and that I know
that Mrs. Shelton and Mrs. Stranahan had been active on behalf
of Seminoles for many years and that the Seminoles have a very
high regard for them. But the problems that existed were rather
complicated and I hadn't had much of an opportunity to become
acquainted with them, and I didn't want to say too much about
what we were hoping to get accomplished until we did have a
chance to get a little more familiar with the whole range of pro-
blems that were facing the Seminoles.
After we returned from the meeting with the Friends of the
Seminoles, Bill came over and wanted to talk to me about a law
and order problem he had. Apparently poachers had been invading
the Seminole village and killing alligators and skinning them
and leaving the carcasses lay and so on. The sheriff or law en-

forcement people in the community weren't doing very much a-
bout it. Bill wanted to get something accomplished. He and
Bob St. Arnold were both concerned about this. Bob St. Arnold
was, is a government employee who was assigned to help the
Seminoles in their arts and crafts and the village and sort of
as a business manager. Anyway he was telling us that they're
having an awful time with arts and crafts objects. In other
words, the things that they were buying from the Indians didn't
meet any standards and much of it wasn't very saleable, and yet
they had to give a pretty good price for that stuff and they
couldn't make much profit on it because they didn't dare to
mark it up too much. One of the big problems seems to be that
production is limited, production doesn't meet standards and
the variety of objects for sale is not too great. Therefore
they've been bringing in a lot of material that is made up by
novelty companies to sell in their arts and crafts. The amount
of stuff that they have that are of Indian origin is very limit-
One of the things that Bob told me was that items that are
of Indian origin, that are of good quality, are readily sale-
able. There's a pretty good market for that type of material.
But items that are of Indian origin and do not meet good stan-
dards are hard to move. So he thought that it might be a good
idea for us to go ahead and stock up on commercial type novel-
ties and just forget about Indian stuff. Only buy from the In-
dians those things that meet standards, and if they don't meet
standards, well, we just won't buy them. One thing that seemed
to be apparent is that we had Indians on the Big Cypress and
on the Brighton reservations who needed jobs, and we had an out-
let for arts and crafts objects and that maybe we could work
something out where we could put the two problems together and
come up with one solution.
On Thursday the 27th, Sam Burns, credit officer, and Bill
Osceola and myself left to go up to the Brighton reservation
to take a look. Mr. Burns had most of the project information
with him and so we had good opportunity to look the reserva-
tion over that day, look at the cattle programs, look at the
land development program, and look at the situation up there
generally. And also to talk with the Indian leaders up at Brighton.
Of course we have some fairly prominent people up there among
the Indian groups that are involved in almost all of these pro-
grams. For instance, Dick Bowers is a nephew of the present med-
icine man, Frank Shore, and quite influential with the Indians.

He has been an employee of the land operations for a good many
years. Oily Jones has been employed by the Roads division for
many years and he also is quite influential. Then of course we
have some of the regular leaders up there, all of the elected
leaders. All of these folks have been very cordial to me. Most
of them I've met on previous occasions, and I had an opportunity
to get acquainted with them again. So it was very interesting to
me to have an opportunity to look the reservation over and see
the people and see the problems and give me something to think
Then on Friday the 28th we did the same thing. We went down
to Big Cypress and we looked over the cattle program and the
land development program. We looked over all of the roads dev-
elopment projects, and we looked at the old school building that
was being used down there. We were quite interested in, or at
least I was interested in, the attitude of some of the Indian peo-
ple out there on the reservation. Most of 'em felt that the cattle
program was getting too much attention, and they weren't saying it
but the inference was that maybe we were prone to put all our eggs
in one basket. Everybody was concerned about the land development
and the cattle program, and these people who were not involved in
that operation feel like they're being left out. This began to
crop up at Big Cypress. I talked with Jimmy Osceola, he was one of
the constitutional committee people from Big Cypress, and he was
telling me about this. He doesn't have any interest in cattle, and
he wants to know what he's going to be able to do to make a living
out there. It's his reservation; he wants to live there. What can
he do? That's a good question. The people that are interested in
cattle want me to really get with that problem and see if we can't
find some solutions fairly rapidly because the thing seems to be
growing all out of shape and proportion.
While we were down to Big Cypress Fred Monsteoca was there and
Jack Lewis, and they had been talking with Timmy Williams, who was
a former home administration man. He has some money that can be
used for improvement of homes, $2,500 loans can be made. These loans
are available to people who are interested in agriculture. They had
a meeting scheduled for Friday night at Big Cypress. So when the day
was over, we went and had supper and then we came back for this
meeting. Eugene Meadows, who is a teacher at Big Cypress, said, well,
he thought maybe there'd be ten or fifteen Indians there and maybe,
at least I'd get a chance to meet the leaders because they always
came. The rest of 'em weren't too good about coming to meetings. But

we were a little surprised that about sixty-five people showed
up. I guess they were interested in looking the new superin-
tendent over. Looking at the Seminole people as they were seated
in front of me that night, I could see that all kinds of problems
existed. Some of the old people walked around barefooted and most
of the kids were barefooted. Their clothes were in pretty bad
shape. They had very little of anything. Very few people had cars,
for instance. They had old jalopies that were just barely going,
but they didn't have any good transportation. A few did, but not
too many. So the people showed every sign of having a severe pro-
blem with economics, and it was something that just has to be
done. Something has to be done to help these people because you
just can't let this sort of thing go on.
I've been thinking all day about some sort of an idea that could
be developed for providing work. I talked with some of the agency
people. Fred Monsteoca was not too interested, and neither was Jack
Lewis. Gene Meadows, a teacher, thought that something like that
would be just fine. It was something that absolutely was needed
in the community. But the thing that we need to do is to sit down
now and work out some fairly concrete ideas. I think that probably
Sam Burns and some of the other people on the staff can give us some
good advice as to how we should get started on something like this.
I decided that I'd ask Bill if he could stay over and we would
get together with the tribal leaders, Frank Billie and Willy Frank,
and talk this business of some sort of a craft shop over with them,
see what they think about it, see whether, you know, we could get
something like this going. If they think we can, then I think I'll
just go ahead and see what we can work out because I think that I
can get the Bureau to provide the money if I have a feasible pro-
ject. This may not be feasible from purely an economic point of view,
but it's certainly feasible from a point of view of providing employ-
ment to the Seminoles. Because you don't need a great deal of skill,
and we can get a minimum of power tools and things like that. If we
can get someoinewho has the know-how, that could use these things to
help to show the Indians the best way to make novelties of various
kinds, and I think that we can probably work something out.
After we got through talking about the project an old fellow came
along and he had a metal detector. He claimed he could detect gold
and silver and he knew where a lot of it was buried. So Frank Billie
and Willy Frank, Bill Osceola went out with him, looking for gold.
While they were gone some women showed up at the school and they
started cooking. It turned out that there was going to be a picnic
and there was quite a big turnout; there was quite a large number of

people came out and so we had a kind of a nice time. We sat
down and ate together and talked, and I got a chance to visit
with some of the people and look the place over, look some of
these people over, too, that I had heard of but hadn't had a
chance to meet.
While the picnic was going on I got a call from A. J. Ryan.
He said that the legislation at Tallahassee was probably going
to be presented Monday, and he wanted to know if we could come
up there and be available for that. And I told him "yes." He
asked Bill if he could bring a couple of Seminole shirts along
because he'd like to present a Seminole shirt to the president
of the Senate and leader of the House. And so I told him, well,
I'd relay that information to Bill and then we would, well, we'd
plan on going up to Tallahassee Monday.
One of the things that I had done was that I'd had a couple
of Indian pipes made out of the pipe stone from Minnesota. I had
'em made sort of like the old Seminole model type pipes. So while
we were gone there that day I gave some of those pipes to Josie
Billie. He was very pleased about that. He just was real excited
about that pipe. I gave him some tobacco, and he sat down and
filled that pipe up and sat down and smoked it, and he was really
rattling off in Seminole. I don't know what he was saying, but I
guess it was complimentary 'cause he seemed to be quite pleased
with that. I also gave one of them to Frank Shore the day before.
He seemed to like it because he told me that he hadn't seen one
of those pipes in a long time, and he'd never seen one made out
of that kind of stone.
During the course of the picnic Mr. Jamison came to see me--
he's the man in charge of education here on Big Cypress reserva-
tion--and Mrs. Wilson, who is the nurse. And they told me that
one of the great needs of the reservation is for a kindergarten
program and a child care program. That so many of these little
children go to school and they're not bilingual, they only speak
Seminole, and it takes them two or three years to get started be-
cause by the time they learn the English language well enough to
understand the classroom work they're behind and this makes it a
little difficult for them. So she thought, Mr. Jamison thought,
that if we had a kindergarten program and a child care program
that some of these little youngsters could be taught English and
some of the social behavior patterns, behavior traits before they
got to school, and that this would be immensely helpful to them.
I could see where it would be. The nurse told me that a good many
of the children are being cared for by their grandmothers, and

many times these grandmothers are very, very old and they're
not too spry. These little kids get away from them and they
just sort of run wild when their parents are gone. Many times
Momma and Daddy has to work, go out in the fields and work and
so on. The grandmothers take care of the children, and these
kids aren't too well taken care of. They told me that if we
set up any kind of a project where people are going to be em-
ployed, these women would be best source of employment because
they're much better workers than the men. That meant that a lot
of these children were going to have to be put somewhere during
the workday so they can be cared for. Well, this is another prob-
lem I hadn't thought of, but I can see that this is something
that we need to be thinking about. I talked to Mr. Jamison about
the Economic Opportunity programs and asked him what was included
in the program that had been submitted, and he said that one of
the things that had been included was the kindergarten and a
child-care program. But he said that he didn't know why the Office
of Economic Opportunity had turned down the program but this ap-
parently is a pretty good source of assistance of the type that
these people really need.
May 29. Was advised today that Ben Wells had drowned at Big
Cypress. Apparently he'd been out drinking and he had stopped
on the way home and had fallen into a rock pit and he drowned.
The sheriff of Hendry County had come and they had fished him
out. Apparently some of the fish and animals had gotten to him
while he was in the water and he wasn't a very good-looking sight,
I guess. But anyway they took him up to Clewiston and made arrange-
ments up there for his body to be taken care of. Also heard that
Lucy Cufnee Tiger died at the hospital today. She was Lucy Osceola's
grandmother, that's Mrs. Billy Osceola's grandmother. Billy may
have trouble getting to Tallahasee for the ceremonies on Monday
in view of this death in the family. This weekend Bob Davis and
his son Joe and Max Osceola came over and picked me up and we went
out and played golf. I had a chance to talk with Max Osceola. He
and Laura May were having quite a lot of marital problems, and she
had just gotten out of the hospital. She's still pretty weak and
shaky and she doesn't have all of her strength back yet, but she
hasn't really calmed down. She's very hypertensive, and they appa-
rently have some very real problems. I don't know what can be done
about it, but Max didn't hesitate to talk to me about it. He knew
that Laura May was a good friend of mine and that I was interested
in her and her welfare. He talked to me quite freely, but he said

that he's just about got to the end of the line as far as she's
concerned. Unless she settles down he's just not going to try
any more.
On May 31 we took a flight to Tallahassee and we got there
about 4 PM, or 2:30 I should say. On the flight I had been talk-
ing to Bill and Billy about the possibilities of a golf course
and a motel complex on the Dania reservation. It struck me that
we were in an area in which the development was from the coast
westward and that we were soon going to be in the center of acti-
vities. If we were able to construct a good golf course, champion-
ship-type course, with a good, substantial motel so we could have
first-class facilities, this would be a real good project for the
Indians and it'd be something that they could manage themselves.
It would be something that eventually they not only could own, but
have staff and manage of by the Seminoles. Itwould be unique on
this basis. They had enough land for all of this and the land was
laying idle, wasn't being used. So I was sort of thinking about
this a time or two before. I had talked with Mr. Harrington about
it when he was superintendent, and we had discussed it. I had done
a little research on the economic feasibilities of golf courses
and hotels and things of that sort with the people in Washington,
and I'd gathered quite a little information. So this wasn't a spur
of the moment thing. It struck me that it'd be a good thing to do.
Billy and Bill were of course immediately interested. This is some-
thing that they could see that would be beneficial to the Indians
and would make good use of that land and would give a source of
perpetual employment to members of the tribe under conditions which
they could control, which of course they liked very much. And Mr.
Ryan, who was the attorney, had told us that we would meet with him
the following morning at 8 AM, so we had the afternoon and evening
to talk these things over. Since no one from the agency was there,
we took our shoes off in the hotel room and we sat down and we really
talked this thing over quite thoroughly. We talked over the cost of
construction for the golf course, which was going to be somewhere in
the neighborhood of a half a million dollars. We talked about the
construction of a motel, at least a hundred-room motel, which would
be in the neighborhood of a million dollars. We talked about the de-
velopment of an administrative program to run the two projects at
least for a couple of years until they could get to a paying basis.
The history of new projects of this type indicated that you had to
be prepared to finance them for a period of two or three years until
they caught on with the public and became by their reputation desir-
able. So Bill and Billy were very enthused about this and they want-
ed to start right in. I told them, well, we would if they really

felt that this was the thing to do. Now one of the projects that
I had suggested to the Seminoles when I was organizing them was
that arts and crafts village. It had gotten into quite a deplor-
able condition. I told Bill that, and I told Bill, I said, "You
know," I said, "It's straining a good relationship with the public
a little bit to sell them tickets then show them what you've got
out there." And I said, "There's lots of things that you could do
which would improve that immensely, wouldn't cost a lot of money,
but we're going to have to apply ourself to that project, too, be-
cause we've got to make that thing payable. We have to get that
out of the red before we do too much because we can't have too
many projects operating in the red and still go ask for additional
money, because that makes our whole situation look unsound from a
financial point of view." I talked all these things over with the
two when I had them together, and I think they understood that
accounting for funds and budget management and administration of
programs was not something that you did when you had time; that
these were planned operations that had to meet high standards if
you were going to make money. If you didn't provide these kinds of
services on a high-standard basis, you're going to not only fail
but you're going to go broke. While there was a lull in the con-
versation, Bill said that he had a few things that he wanted to
talk about, too. And Billy said, "Yes, and I got something that I
want to talk with you about." And so I said, "Well, be a good time
for us just to, you know, get everything laid out. We're here by
ourselves, we've got plenty of time, we can talk things over." and
they said, "Fine." Bill told me that when they went to see Mr.
Walthrop with a problem, that if the problem had to do with the
cattle program or the land development program he would just simply
say, "Go see Jim Hale. Jim Hale';s my man on that, on those programs
and he takes care of everything for me, so you just go talk with
him." Or if you went to see the agency about an educational program,
they'd say, "Go see Bill Boehmer. Mr. Boehmer is in charge of educa-
tion and he takes care of all of these things." And Bill said, "Well,
when we go see these men, they say 'well, we can't do anything,
Bill, the Superintendent's the man you've got to talk to."' So he said,
"A lot of things died because they'd pass the buck back and forth."
And he said, "I can see that you're going to stop that." Bill said
that the Indians who work for Jim Hale just can't abide him, they
can't stand him. He's secretive, he won't tell them anything, and he
sort of uses them as day labor. They're not included in any of the
planning or any of the programming for the projects. If new pastures
are going to be developed he just never discussed these problems with
the Indians, either the leaders or his own employees. These things

are worked out between he and Bill Smith and members of his
staff and he gets the OK from the superintendent. Most of the
time the tribe says they don't know really what's going to go
or what's going to be done until they see somebody working.
They go ask him what he's doing and he says, "Well, we're put-
ting in a new pasture here." This is the first time they find
out about it then. He says, "Now I know you mean well, you want
to do what's right, but Mr. Hale had been here a long time. He
was here when Mr. Marmon was here and he was here before Virgil
Harrington was here, and nobody seems to have been able to deal
with him. He seems to be an authority unto himself, and he does
just exactly as he chooses." And he said, "We talked with Mr.
Harrington about this a lot of times, and Mr. Harrington says,
"All right, you just see me, and he goes, bawls out Jim Hale,
he bawled Jim Hale out, and Jim Hale, he not say nothin'," he
said. "But," he says, "pretty soon Jim Hale's doin' what he was
doin' before. And Mr. Harrington didn't, can't do nothin' about
it, I guess." "Now," he said, "if Mr. Hale worked with the Semin-
oles, I'd think the Seminoles would like him, would get along
fine. But he won't do that." "So," he said, "it's our land, our
cattle, and he is spending our money, and he don't want to tell
us how he's spending it." He also told me that Sam, uh, Sam Burns,
the credit officer, was just like Mr. Hale. They rode together all
the time, he said. Every time Mr. Hale goes some place, he'd take
Mr. Burns along with him....question, why he always would tell
you, "I can't answer that, my records aren't up to date. I won't
know what the answer to that problem would be until maybe at the
end of the month. When we get everything brought up to date, why,
I can tell you." So he said, "So far as our credit money was con-
cerned," he said, "the only time we ever got any information was
when we went over to see Birdie Clark." Birdie was Sam Burn's
assistant. She was quite an efficient and capable woman, and she
did most of the detail work anyway. So the Indians had gotten
to the point where they didn't bother Sam Davis very much, they
would go over to see Birdie Clark. Bill thought that the tribe
would be better off if Sam was transferred some place and Birdie
Clark was given the job. They could work with her. Well, I had
heard some of the situations that exist at the reservation. Be-
fore I came down I had talked with personnel with some of these
people. For instance, Jim Hale had come here because he was a very
capable engineer and he did the very excellent job of programming
the land development work on both reservations, and he did it from

a purely scientific engineering basis. He wouldn't let the Ind-
ians or the superintendent or anybody else get in his way. When-
ever the project that was approved, when the project layout was
approved, well, then he proceeded on this basis. He didn't feel
that he had to account to anybody for it because he was working
on an approved program. Of course, this didn't set too well with
the Indian people, and it didn't set too well with me, as a mat-
ter of fact. But we'd get to that problem a little later on. Sam
Burns, on the other hand, was a fellow who had been hurt a few
times in the Bureau. He had been on other assignments and he'd
gotten into cross fire a few times, and he'd gotten nicked a little
bit. He had got overly protective of himself. He'd gotten to the
point where he was a little shell-shocked. Whenever the Indians
pointed a finger at him he'd kind of pulled into his shell and
just stayed there until the fireworks died down a little bit. He
was always m the lookout for somebody to try to get him involved
in something that he didn't want to be involved in. So he'd gotten
to be quite a problem as far as the Seminoles were concerned, and
as far as he was concerned, and the credit people in Washington. I
talked with the chief of the branch of credit about him, and he
told me what his problem was. He said, "I don't know what I can do
with Sam." He says, "You put up with him as long as you can. If
he gets too obnoxious, why," he says, "then we'll move him." "But,"
he says, "I don't have any place that I can put him right now."
Well, then, there was the problem that Billy brought up of the educa-
tional program--that Bill Boehmer had been running it for many, many
years. He just absolutely brooked no interference from anybody on
the educational thing. He didn't make any attempt to talk to the
tribe about the educational program. He just told them it was none
of their business. Go ahead and do it, he'd going to take care of
the education program the way he thought fit, and if they didn't
like it, why, too bad. He didn't quite say it in those terms, but
this is the message that the Seminoles got. Of course, I'd heard
about this; I heard about he and his wife. They'd been day school
teachers for twenty years on the Brighton Reservation. They finally
were moved into the reservation here, and they didn't like that too
well. They worked as a team: she worked for arts and crafts, and he
worked for education. When he went to Brighton she went along with
him 'cause she always had enought craft work at Brighton to get her
to Brighton whenever he had to go. They had a home at Okeechobee,
and Brighton was a very nice place for them to go because at
night they could run home and stay at their home in Okeechobee and
visit with their friends up there. They were pretty well known around

that area, been there for twenty years; they knew a lot of
people up there. So he and his wife were a problem. They
weren't making too many efforts to get anything accomplished
that the tribe thought was important. So these were some of
the things that we talked about.
There were a number of other employees in less sensitive
positions who were having problems with the Seminoles, but I
thought we could probably get those things straightened out
or take some curative measures depending on what we're able to
accomplish. But on the other hand the Indians had a very high
regard for many of the employees. Birdie Clark in credit, whom
I mentioned, was one whom they went to whenever they had need
for information or assistance that they thought she could be
helpful with. Fred Monsteoca was the man they really relied on
so far as anything that has to do with the cattle program. And
Jack Lewis was the man that they would go to, too, with problems.
Not only of roads, but Jack was prominent in his own hometown, at
LaBelle. He lived in LaBelle, and his wife worked for the county.
They'd lived there a good many years, all of his life actually, I
guess. So he was well-known and well-liked, and he had a wide
range of friends, not only locally, but some political people up
the line in Tallahassee. So he was able to help the Indians on
many occasions. Another fellow that they would go to all of the
time was Earl Trickta. Now Earl was in charge of the maintenance
of government facilities at the school, agencies, in all of the
buildings, and utilities and so on. That was his area. He built
all of the houses for the Indians and that sort of thing. They
were always going to him for something. I mean Earl couldn't say
no to 'em. If they needed something and they had to have it, why
Earl would do it for 'em. He'd find some way to charge it to the
government. Anyway, so it was a kind of a balance. It was about
what you would expect at a place. There was about as many debits
as there was credits, however you want to interpret that, but so
it was pretty well balanced. But almost uniformly the employees
up until this time have told me that the Indians have been pretty
well left out of everything. This tribal government has been used
as a sort of a tool to get things done, but the tool had very
limited use. They didn't use it all of the time.
I told Bill and Billy that I was familiar with these problems
now. I was glad to have a chance to discuss it with them, glad
to know not only their feelings. Now Bill and Billy both told me,
"We're not just telling you what we think. Many of these problems
that we're talking about now, we've talked with our people. That

is the representatives from all of the reservations. They're
aware of this problem. They know that we're bringing this to
you, and they know that we're going to tell you what we want
to have done, and some of the things that we would like to
get corrected." So I told Bill and Billy both, I said, "Well,
you fellows will have to give me a reasonable time to do some
of these things. Now I'm not going to charge in like a bull
in the china closet, and break everything in sight." I said,
"I'd like to take my time, I'd like to do this in an orderly
manner. I don't want to get people excited and nervous." I
said, "I'd just like to get these things done as the situation
permits and as the conditions warrant. You can be sure that
I'm not going to forget these, and you can be sure that I'm
going to do everything I can to correct some of these situa-
tions. You can tell your people what I said." This assurance
seemed to be acceptable and, and they were willing to let it
go at that. So we went out and had supper with A. J. Ryan. He
had called to invite us to a buffet that was being given, and
so we went out there to the buffet and joined in. The Indians
are pretty good at buffets and we enjoyed ourselves immensely.
This is June 1, 1965. The tribal leaders and myself were in
Tallahassee to see what we could do about helping get the leg-
islature to divide up the state reservation. There were a num-
ber of people who were interested in this situation that we had
to deal with that day. One of them was Joe Peoples he's dean of
the House. Another was Jack Spratt, a representative from the
western side of the state. Another man that was quite instrument-
al in getting the legislation started was Nick Conners, president
of the Senate. And E. C. Howell, who was Speaker of the House.
During the course of the day we met those people and we talked
with them. Bill and Billy were introduced to the state legislature
and at that time they conducted a little ceremony and presented
Seminole jackets to the Speaker of the House and the president
of the Senate, and everybody was very pleased that the representa-
tives of the tribe could be there. Everybody talked to the group;
Bill talked, Billy and also Buffalo Tiger. Buffalo Tiger also
brought gifts. It was a very interesting meeting. It was the first
time that the representatives of the tribe apparently had ever been
before the state legislature as a body. And so there was a lot of
publicity and a lot of activities going on that day. Joe Peeples
told me that, because of the nice way that the Indians presented
themselves to the legislature and because of the reasonableness of

their request, he felt that the state legislature was going to
pass the legislation and that we would eventually have a division of the land.
During the course of the day we met Bill Byler, who was an
associate of the American Indian Affairs. He was very aggressive
in his interest in restoring the minerals of the land underlying
the state reservation which was being given the Indians. We told
him we were very interested in this, but we didn't want to have
anything upset the applecart. We would just as soon have the land.
Now, if they didn't give us the land, we would never have any
rights, any premises for claiming minerals. So we wanted the land
first. Then, if we could get both, that would be just fine. But if
the minerals were going to jeopardize our taking the land, we
would forego asking for the minerals at this time and do that at a
later date. But he didn't like that too well. He wanted the tribal
leaders to get up there and start a war dance around those legisla-
tors to get 'em to throw those minerals in. He did, as a matter of
fact, talk to the president of the Senate and the speaker of the
House and some of these other people, and I guess they listened to
him. But apparently nothing was done about it. One of the fellows
that was sort of showing him around was Bob Mitchell, who is an
officer in Friends of the Seminoles, and he seemed anxious about
the minerals, too. But apparently when we finally got through with
the ceremonies and everything, and the Senate took its action, the
bill was passed and we understood that the governor signed it at
noon. So the thing was all said and done. But Bill Byler was kind
of provoked with me, and I think he was kind of provoked with the
Seminoles. At least, he invited himself to go down there. Now Reggie
Miller came over to me and told me that this guy represents the
American Indian Affairs, and we've got to treat him nice. I said,
"Well, I certainly intend to treat him like a gentleman, but I cer-
tainly don't intend to allow him to tell me what we can do and what
we can't do." But I'm aware of the importance of these organizations.
I had to deal with them for a good many years in Washington, and I
know about the national Congress of the American Indian Affairs, and
ARROW, and all of these other organizations that have to do with
Indians. I know they are interested in Indian welfare, and I know
that they're generally on the right side of the fence as far as
Indians are concerned. But I also know that the Bureau is not going
to have its goals established for it by these organizations.
Well, Miller told me that he had talked the matter over with John
Crow. John had told him to be very careful about this and to be

sure that the minerals were included in the bill. "Well," I
said, "you didn't prepare the bill, and I didn't prepare the
bill, and there was amendments submitted to cover the minerals.
That's just as far as anybody can go. The rest is up to the
state legislature. They've acted and I think it's time for us
to go home now. There's nothing more that we can do, not at this
Bill Osceola talked with Joe Peeples, the dean of the House,
about the minerals and he told him that the tribe would like to
have the minerals. We wanted them in the right way; we weren't
going to do something that would be embarassing to anybody. And
if in its wisdom the legislature could see its way clear to give
these minerals to the Indians that we would appreciate it because
some day they may be very valuable to the Seminole people. And
Mr. Peeples said, "Yes, that's true." But he told me that Mr.
Byler and Mr. Mitchell had gone about approaching the state leg-
islatures and the people, the legislative people, in the wrong
way, and their efforts were fruitless. After the usual amenities
then we left. We caught a plane back to Miami and went home. It
was an interesting day. It was a long day, but very interesting.
We met a lot of people in the state. I was distinctly of the op-
inion that the people in Florida were vastly interested in the
well-being of the Seminole people and that they would like to see
things done that would enhance their well-being. I didn't detect
any feelings of hostility towards the Seminoles, at any level, in
the people that I dealt with all day long. Everybody seemed to be
anxious to be helpful. So I think that the climate in Florida is
good so far as some of the programs that we might have in mind are
concerned, and I think that we could and can get assistance all
along the line if we need it.
On June 2 I talked with Dr. Saul Wiley. He is our economist.
He's the man on the staff who has to do with economic development
activities. I told him that we had seriously considered the devel-
opment of a golf course and a motel and restaurant, and that I
would like to have him start work immediately on a schematic plan
which would show 1) the cost of construction, 2) the size of the
facilities that would be feasible considering the area, and 3) a
financial package that we would have to have in order to get all
of this done. When this was in reasonably good shape, then the
staff could brainstorm this situation. We could sit down and talk
the thing over and argue it out one way and another. My request

did not take Dr. Wiley by surprise. As a matter of fact,
he told me he was kind of waiting for me to get around to
talk to him about this, because he had heard from the fellows
in Washington that I was interested in a golf course, and a
motel-restaurant for the Dania reservation. So he had been
forewarned and he had been doing a little research himself on
this subject. He thought that he had some plans that were in
good enough shape so that we could sit down and talk them over
anyway, and then we could let these things be the starting
point. I told him that was just great. That was just perfect. I
said, "I'll have the administrative manager set up a staff con-
ference," and I asked him who he thought ought to come. He said
he thought that Bob Davis ought to be there, Sam Burns, and that
it would be good if Mr. Trickta could come in because he knew
quite a little about construction and cost of construction in
this particular area, and he would be very helpful. And he thought
that if Bill and Billy could come over, or Laura May, that would
be just fine. We could then have enough people to sit down and
kind of hash over this situation, see what we could make of it.
When the people who we had invited arrived for the staff meeting,
we sat down and really went over the plans and the ideas that Dr.
Wiley had. We got to the point where we were getting down to cases
on architectural design, on management, on financing, and we were
talking in terms of getting feasibility studies prepared, and who
would be the best people to do that for us. We covered quite a lot
of territory. Dr. Wiley had prepared a lot of information for us,
and it was good information. It was information of comparable sit-
uations in the area, of recent vintage, so it was pretty valid. So
we got a pretty good education on just what this could be, what
could be accomplished here.
After the conference was over with, Paul Nelson, who was the ad-
ministrative manager or my assistant--in the old days we used to
call them chief clerks--he and I sat down and we spent an hour or
so going over the agency budget and the makeup of the agency staff.
You know, I was too late to present any budget ideas to Washington
with respect to the agency. Those had already gone in and had been
approved, and we'd be getting our money latter part of June, first
of July. We would have to live with what had been submitted and so
on. So we went over the staff arrangement, we went over the budgets
for each of the branches, and I told him that I wanted tight controls
on those funds. I wanted to know at all times, financially, what was
going on. In other words, if a branch by September had spent half of

their budget, then I wanted to know what they were going to
do with the rest of the nine months, how they were going to
manage that. I didn't want people spending all their money
the first six months and sitting on their tail the last six
months. That isn't the way things have to be done. A lot of
branch chiefs are not too good about financial management,
personnel matters, and things of that kind. I told Paul that
I expected that he would shore up those weaknesses and work
things out with these people, and I wanted him to be an intri-
cate support, administrative support for everybody. I wanted
him to be part and parcel. When;that stuff comes into me, when
these reports come into me, I was going to read them and then
I'd give it to him, and then I wanted files set up, if they
hadn't already been set up, in such a way that if I wanted to
know something that I could. I wanted some one person who could
get me the information I wanted, whenever I wanted it. We decid-
ed to call Irene Thompson in. She was my secretary. She's an
elderly woman, about ready for retirement, but she was very con-
scientious and she was a good worker and steady and reliable. So
we sat down and told her what we had in mind. I gave her kind of
an outline of some of the things that we were planning to do. They
decided that they could work out some sort of a filing arrangement
where at least the administrative aspects of our operation would
always be available, and we would know at all times where we stood,
and that nobody was going to get out of line and get things messed
up without our knowing about it.
Before I left for home, Bill came over and said that he and
Billy had been talking with their people, and the board and the
tribal council together wanted to go with us over the Brighton and
Big Cypress reservations. The Indians would like to know what it is
we're going to do and how we'relgoing to do it and so on. I told
him, "Well, it's short notice, but I'll see if I can't get Bob Davis
and Jim Hale and Sam Burns together, at least these three. We can
go up there and meet with those people and let them tell us what's
going on and we can tell what we hope to do." Harry Akins, who was
land operation man stationed at Big Cypress said that the people
at Big Cypress were very anxious to have me come back up there. They
wanted a chance now to talk to me. They felt that the first time I
was up there didn't count, because that was sort of like getting
acquainted. Now they felt that they were in a better position to
talk to me and that we could go ahead then and maybe get a little
better understanding of each other.

Next morning when we left for Brighton, we left very early.
On our way up there Sam Burns gave me a copy of the land oper-
ations budget for the year, which broke down to about $100,000
being contributed by the Bureau of Indian Affairs, $50,000 by
the tribe, and $68,000 by the cattlemen, for a total of $218,000
for fiscal year '66. This was a slim budget. Jim told me that they
could get by on that budget and if they didn't have any unusual
conditions during the year they could probably make it, but that
they really did need more money. It seemed that the tribe was do-
ing about all it could do in view of its other programs. The Bur-
eau was also at its limit insofar as this reservation was concerned.
The end result was that it seemed that we were going to have to look
to the stockmen for an increase in grazing fees in order to help
support this program, and in order to bring the program up to as
high a standard as it should be. Jim Hale at that point told me
that the reason they weren't able to get the stockmen to listen to
any proposals to increase their grazing fee was the Fred Monsteoca
was opposed to increasing grazing fees. He felt that the initial
cost of establishing all of the pastures should be borne by the Fed-
eral government; it was their idea, and they ought to pay for it and
let the Indians use it. Once the pastures were completed and every-
thing was in good shape, then he felt that at that point if the pas-
tures would actually in fact support the cattle, then the Indian
stockmen should pay on the basis of the actual cattle production
that they were in fact getting.
I was aware of the fact that Jim Hale, Bob Davis, and Sam Burns
were quite seriously opposed to Fred Monsteoca. I don't think it
was a personal matter; I think it was a matter of philosophy. Jim
and Bob and Sam were supporting the Bureau in its position. The
Bureau was of the position that we got the Indians started in this
program and that's all we're expected to do. They have to carry it
on themselves from now on. Well, that might be good thinking, but
it was a little premature because the stockmen's income was such
that they couldn't support themselves, much less a program of this
kind. We had too many economic problems, too many problems in the
cattle ownership itself to be able to do something like this. In all
honesty, it was a difference not of personalities between Fred Monst-
eoca and the three agency fellows, but it was a differnece of philo-
sophy. Fred was of the opinion that the Indians shouldn't have to
pay, and the Bureau wanted the Indians to pay a much bigger proportion
of the proposition than they were at that point. Things got a little
bit heated, so I told the fellows, I said, "Well, I understand your

differences of opinion on this. I heard about it before I came
here so it's not entirely new to me, but I think we better keep
one thing in mind, and that is that we're an organization that
is designed to help Indians and we've got to function in that
capacity. We're not going to function very effectively if one
group is at war with the other one all of the time. And so you
fellows, it's all right, go ahead and have your differences of
opinion. No one can stop that. But let's not let it interfere
with what we're trying to get accomplished." They kind of snick-
ered a little bit, I think. At least not in my presence, but I
gathered that they thought that this was a lot of hogwash and
that they were going to have to concern...that I was going to pro-
bably be on Monsteoca's side, and that I therefore was going to be
a fellow that had to be taken care of, too.
I was amazed at the turnout at Brighton. There must have been
forty or fifty people there, both men and women. We discussed at
that meeting the budget, and who was contributing what, and what
it was costing to operate all the pastures, both on Brighton and
Big Cypress. I had the branch chiefs get up and explain this in
some detail to them. Then I told them that the problem was now
that we've got to have more money, some people felt we ought to
get it from the cattlemen through increasing the grazing fees,
and others thought we ought to get it from the Bureau by increas-
ing appropriations, and some felt that the tribe could afford to
put more money into it. But I wasn't prepared at this time to
decide how this should be done, and I didn't have any recommend-
ations to make to the group. I wanted them to think about it be-
cause it was a question that's going to come up and they're go-
ing to be asked to do something about it and they're going to be"
asked for their opinion. Certainly the tribal leaders will come to
them and talk to them about it. So I wanted them to think about it.
"Don't think about it as something that we have to do today, or we
have to do this month. But it's something that we're going to have
to get to pretty soon. We can't let another year go by without re-
solving this problem. So everybody think about it."
As they did at Big Cypress, the women barbequed some chicken and
some ribs. They brought a lot of potato salad and other goodies to
the meeting. After we'd had an hour or two discussion and talk and
I got a chance to get around and shake hands with a lot of people
and so on, well, we sat down and had a picnic together. After that
we made another tour of the reservation with the tribal leaders,
the elected leaders and also the leading cattlemen. Each man, when

we'd come to his pasture, why, he'd come over and explain to us
who was in his group, and how many cattle there were, and how
they were taking care of the management of cattle and the manage-
ment of land, and so on. There were a number of excellent cattle
groups. Some of them looked in tip-top shape: their pastures looked
good, they weren't over grazed, they were moving their cattle, and
they were keeping the thing in balance, and it looked good. They
were doing a good job. There were other pastures where fences were
down, cattle were in the lanes and in other people's pastures, and
the pasture wasn't well taken care of. There were situations in
which they were going to have to do some cleaning up and doing some
work in order to get their program in a little better shape.
When we got back to the school where we started from, some of the
Indian leaders came over and talked to me. Andrew Bowers came over
and talked to me, and he welcomed me here and said they were all
happy that I had come. They're all looking forward to working with
me and they were glad to see that I come to the reservation and talk
to them, and this is what they were anxious to have done. I met John
Henry Gopher, who is a lay minister and I met Frank Huff, Archie
Johns, and a young fellow that impressed me a good deal was Stanlow
Johns. He was not a full-blooded Seminole; he was mixed blood, but
he was Seminole, all right. They seemed to have a lot of respect
for Stanlow. He was able to get up and talk, and he talked intelli-
gently. He evidently knows the cattle program, and he knows his
people's problems, and if you ask him, why, he'll tell you what he
thinks about it. So I met most of the major families: I met the
Joneses, Ollie Jones and Willie, and his brothers; and I met the
Micco family, Howard and his brothers; and so I met, I guess, most
of the major cattle owners on the Brighton reservation. So I thought
that night when we got to a motel that I'd better sit down and make
myself some notes so I wouldn't forget what I told these people and
I would be able to recall it later on. After supper Fred Monsteoca
and Bill Osceola came over to my room and we sat down and talked for
a while. Billy had a camp there on Brighton reservation and he stay-
ed up there with his family so he didn't come down to Clewiston with
us, but the rest of us got together and we talked. I told Fred that
I thought there was two sides to this problem. One was land develop-
ment and use and management of those resources, land and water, and
the other was the cattle and use and management of those resources,
and that they were different. And that we were going to have to work
things out on a little better basis than they were. I said I noticed
that there was maybe a dozen or so women there and I understood that

they were all cattle owners. Some of them were old and obviously
couldn't take care of cattle. Others were young enough to take
care of cattle, but they'd have to hire help because a lot of
that work they couldn't do. And there were a lot of old people
there, old men, way beyond the age when they should be messin'
around with cattle. So it looked to me like we had a normal sit-
uation here. We had situations in which we had people who owned
cattle who were too old to use them; we had people who owned cat-
tle that were interested in them and were physically able and
motivated to do something about improving the cattle ownership
patterns that they were in. We had people who owned cattle that
weren't interested in them. So I thought it might be an excellent
idea if you fellows, those fellows would sit down, and for me
outline the cattle owners in three categories: one, the category
of the excellent operator, the good operator, the guy with high
potential. The operator that was mediocre, but could own cattle
and operate effectively. Then I would like the third category in
which we would lump everybody; the people who couldn't take care
of them, people who wouldn't take care of them or people who didn't
want it, and people who should not be in cattle. Put them in one
category because they were our problem people. They're the ones
who wouldn't mend their fences, they're the ones who won't feed
minerals to their cattle, they're the ones that won't come out at
branding time and work their livestock like the rest of the people
do. The tribe and others are forced to hire labor and get that work
done for them and deduct it out of their cattle sales. All of these
things will have to be taken care of eventually. I'm new here and
it'd take me a long, long time to get this lined up and I would like
Bill and Fred to do this for me. And do it for not only Brighton,
but Big Cypress, too, so that we will have a little idea of what kind
of cattle operators we have.
The one feature of the Indian cattle program which seems very bad
to me is the calf crop they're getting. My understanding is that the
calf crop in many instances is as low as 25 per cent, which is way
below any kind of a reasonable level. The last reservation I worked
on up in North Dakota, we figured a 70 per cent calf crop was a fair
year, and 75 was average, and 80 was a good year. Well, these folks
have never heard of those kind of percentages in calf crops. And
Fred Monsteoca seems to think that the big problem in low calf crops
is two-fold: 1) the handling of the bulls and 2) the failure of the
Indians to permit pregnancy testing of their cattle. And even when
the cattle are pregnancy tested, they don't dispose of the open
cattle. They keep them. So the testing program doesn't serve much

purpose. So this was something that we were going to have to
do. In other words, if we double the calf crop--and this
could be easily done with good husbandry practices--I think
we can start talking to these people in terms of more graz-
ing fees. We also talked in terms of being frank, coming out
openly and talking about some of these peoblems. Both Bill and
Fred thought that it was time that the Bureau quit horsing a-
round and came right out and said what it had to say and let
the Indians hear it. Come right out and call a spade a spade. So
we decided that we would try that at Big Cypress the next day
and see how it went over. Now, me being a new superintendent, if
it didn't go over too well, people would say, "Well, he's new a-
round here, he doesn't know any better," and maybe they would
excuse me and let me off lightly this time. Otherwise, if they
did accept it, it was time that we got down to facts because some
of the problems that they're facing are too severe to be too
polite about.
One of the things that I noticed, too, was that by and large
most of the government employees didn't know how to deal with
Indians. They didn't treat them the way they should. In fact,
they didn't understand the functions of the board of directors
or the functions of the tribal council and they were pretty in-
effective, I would say, in meetings. They didn't really conduct
a meeting in the way it should be conducted. They seemed to treat
the Indians as though they were fragile and handled them with kid
gloves. Of course that's all right, but on the other hand most peo-
ple like to be dealt with on a basis of their individual standing
and not as a tribe--this big conglomeration that you call a tribe
and the tribe has certain characteristics and so on. Well, that's
not exactly true. Indian communities are like other communities in
many respects. They're made up of human beings, individuals, people
with different likes and dislikes, people with different character-
istics, people with different motivations, and people who are going
to respond in a different way. So by giving them a tribal identifi-
cation and then trying to treat them as completely different types
of people because they are Indian, I think you lose a little some-
thing in the process. I always like to deal with Indians on a person-
al basis, direct, and forget about this tribal business as far as
possible. Sure, you recognize people's standing in the community. If
he's the chairman or if he's the president of the board or something
like that, yeah, you recognize this. But you talk with people like...
for instance, when you talk with Stanlow Johns, you gotta talk to
Stanlow as a cattle operator, and Stanlow's problems. Stanlow's not
interested in a lot of problems that don't affect him, he's only in-
terested in the problems that affect him, and you've got to deal with
him on that premise. Our people are inclined to handle Indians in a

very peculiar way, I think.
On June 4 we toured the Big Cypress reservation and at noon
we had lunch with Frank Billie and Willy Frank. Their wives pre-
pared us a very delicious lunch. After lunch we went over to the
school and we talked to quite a lot of people, mostly cattle men
and women. We had the meeting similar to the one that we had at
Big Cypress. I met some of the older, more interesting people
like Josie Billie, who used to be a medicine man down on the
Trail. I met Jimmy Cypress, and Barfield Johns, and Henry Osceola,
and Morgan Smith, and Little Tiger Tail, and quite a number of
people like that who were in the cattle business and would continue
to be in the cattle business. In accordance with our previous opin-
ion the night before about speaking frankly, we did talk quite
frankly. I told them I thought that there were a lot of people in
the cattle business who probably didn't want to be there but that
was all that was available to them, and that we were going to try
and find some other kinds of work for them so that they could make
a living and it wouldn't necessarily have to be in cattle. They
could make a living some other way. But they would have to give me
a little time to work on these ideas because it took time to set
these programs up and to get some jobs established so that more of
the people can be employed. At the end of the regular meeting Alice
Snow, who is a council woman from Brighton, and Toby Johns, who is
a councilman from Brighton, both got up and talked to the people at
Big Cypress. I understand that this was quite unusual because ordin-
arily the Brighton people don't say too much when they get down to
Big Cypress and vice versa. Willy Frank and Frank Billie then got
up, each in turn, and talked about the meetings that they had both
at Brighton and Big Cypress. Then when they were through talking;!.
Billy Osceola, who was chairman of the tribal council, got up and
made a long talk to the people. They didn't interpret what was being
said, but I just gathered that he was briefing them on everything
that had transpired in recent days. When the tribal leaders are talk-
ing, you know, people bow their head and they listen intently to
everything that's being said. When Billy was finished with his dis-
cussions, then Bill took the floor. I was quite surprised The meeting
had lasted quite a little while, but the discussions that the tribal
leaders had with their own people lasted almost as long as the meet-
ings did. They did an awful lot of talking.
On June 7 we had another staff meeting with agency people, and that
time I explained to them that Dr. Wiley was going to investigate the
possibilities of building a golf course and a restaurant and motel
on the Dania reservation, that Bob Davis was going to be investigating

the possibility of developing citrus on both the Brighton
and Big Cypress reservations, and that Sam Burns was going
to be leading a group that would be investigating the
possible production of crafts. Then I briefed them on our re-
cent trip to Tallahassee and what occurred up there. I also
told them that I intended to meet with the Board of Directors
and the tribal council and to give them a rundown on the pro-
jects that we are investigating. We want to do whatever we can
to improve things. One of the things that I had added to the
list which I hadn't had an occasion to think about before was a
tribal store, both at Brighton and Big Cypress. The people up
there are having to go twenty-five, thirty miles to the closest
stores to buy fresh milk and vegetables and meats and things like
that. Since they don't have any refrigeration on their reservation,
or very little of it, it's very difficult to keep food. So the end
result is they have an awful lot of starch food. Like they have an
awful lot of dried beans and rice and things of that kind; things
that will keep. So I think it's important for the health of the
people as well as for their economy to have a store on both reserva-
tions which would provide them with fresh produce, fresh dairy pro-
ducts, fresh meat, and a good supply of fruit and canned goods and
also drug items, aspirins, and things of that kind that are in
constant need. So I'm going to have Birdie Clark head up this pro-
ject and have her investigate the best way of setting up these
stores and I'll have Mr. Earl Trickta submit me plans for the con-
struction or the modification of existing structures for this pur-
pose, if we have any such.
Roger Sylvester, who is our forester, also told us that the
fire season is at hand and that we are going to have some very
serious problems with fires if we don't take necessary precautions.
He took a little time to advise the staff on what should be done
and what we would do to cooperate, how we would cooperate in handling
fires on the Big Cypress and the Brighton reservations.
The bureau called and they want the school grounds at Big Cypress,
the new school grounds, enlarged. They have a fill there, but the fill
isn't adequate to provide for playgrounds and other facilities for
the school, so they're going to give us an additional $50,000. But
since this is June 8, it's not going to be possible for the roads
people to get this work done, 'cause they're already committed, so
I'm going to have to advertise and get a contract for this work. I
talked to Bill about this because I know he has some heavy equipment,
and he told me he could get together with some of the Indian people

who have some heavy equipment, trucks and one thing or another.
He's got a drag line and dozer, and with that and some trucks
they could probably take care of the contract all right. So I
told him what we had to have done, and I told him to get together
with those fellows and let me know what kind of a price they could
do it for, and then I'd work the contract on it and we'd get that
$50,000 obligated. Bob Davis came in and Priscilla Doctor, who's
Charlotte Osceola's daughter, was taking a job in Washington, was
going to quit her job here at the agency. Bob Davis wanted to em-
ploy Agnes Johns in her place. I know Agnes Johns; she worked a-
round the office for a while in Washington. She's a little bit un-
stable, but she could handle a job, I think, if she wanted to, if
she was willing to work at it. So I told Bob that I'd talk with her
and see what we could work out, and see if we couldn't get an under-
standing with her before we committed ourselves one way or the other.
Also Mrs. Jordane from Washington called, and she was on her way over
here to the agency. She's interested in welfare problems, and so I
got a hold of Billy, and he's going to squire her around the reserva-
tion so she can get a look at some of the different kinds of problems
that exist on the reservation.
John Carmody also arrived here from Washington. John was here be-
cause we asked for a little additional money. I wanted to do some
remodeling of some of the buildings, and I wanted to take some of
the tribal buildings and enlarge them. I wanted to move some of the
older school buildings and former buildings used in connection with
education and move them across the road and set up a little compound
over there.
I left the agency at 6:30 AM and headed for Big Cypress. The pur-
pose of the trip was to look over the new school buildings and to
agree on some sort of arrangements for spending that $50,000 for site
expansion. We got there about 9:00 AM and we went ahead with our
business and looked everything over and made all of our decisions
with respect to the new school and all those things. I also told
them that Bill and some of the fellows out there felt they could
handle that contract if we would give it to them. I told them what
the normal contracting prices would be and what the average people
around here were getting for moving dirt like that and for fill
work. So he said, well, if they meet the average, well that's fine
with him. I told them that one of the things I'd like to do would
be to make an addition to the existing community building. It was
a cement block construction, pretty fair shape, and I thought if
we'd make a wing, add a wing on, twenty by about forty, it would
give us a lot of storage area and also give us quite a lot of work
room for craft workers. With a good sized building like that and a
good sized wing on it, we could handle quite a few people in there
and get a lot of work done. He said, "Well, if it's for community

purposes I don't see any reason why you shouldn't go ahead with
it." "As a matter of fact," he says, "we've got a little extra
money." He says, "I'll allocate it for you." So I told him, I
showed him, we made a diagram of the building at Big Cypress,
and also told him what we wanted done up there, that this build-
ing was in pretty bad shape and the grounds needed some work on
it, and we wanted to get that thing lined up and get it in work-
ing shape, too. And he said, "Well, I'll give you enough money
for both of those buildings." And I said, "Okay, that's fine."
Then we went into Clewiston for lunch. The reason we went into
Clewiston for lunch was because Jack Lewis was supposed to meet
us there. We were going to fly down to the state reservation and
take a look at the proposed Alligator Alley right-of-way sites.
But the weather was too bad and we couldn't do that. So Buffalo
Tiger and Reggie Miller agreed to meet us at the agency. We deci-
ded that we'd go back to the agency then and talk with them there.
We got in a little before three o'clock and we talked with Buffalo
and Reggie Miller and we agreed that we would approve the right-of-
way sites. Bill and Billy were both agreeable to that, so we felt
that it wouldn't be any problem. Then they asked us to pass resolu-
tions, and asked the board and the council to pass concurring reso-
lutions. They left a copy of their resolution with us, so we said
we would. Then we, I had a chance to talk with Mrs. Jordane, and I
told her that I wanted her to really look at some of the chickees
and some of the social conditions that exist and so forth, the
problem areas, and that I'd like very much for her to think in
terms of supplying us with a welfare worker that would work directly
with these people on these kinds of problems. She reminded me that
Charley Roven, the chief of the branch of welfare, had budget ceil-
ings and budget allocations and so on to contend with, but that she
would take it up with him and she'd recommend strongly that something
like this be done because they're a very deserving people and the
problems were really quite complicated. They had spent most of the
day at Dania, and they were then going to go out the next day, next
couple of days, and look over Big Cypress and the Brighton reserva-
June 10. Bill Boehmer came in and said that Billy had to go to
San Francisco to attend a VISTA conference and that he'd asked him
to escort Mrs. Jourdane around the Big Cypress and the Brighton re-
servations. I told him, well, that's fine, I'm glad that he had the
time to do it and that we would certainly appreciate any time he
could give to Mrs. Jourdane, 'cause he had a real good understanding
of all those problems. Bob Davis came to talk to me about a thirty-

six acre mobile home lease. They wanted it for sixty-five
years, and they'd pay between twelve and sixteen thousand
dollars a year for the term of the lease. He had a lot of
additional information about that. But I told Bob at that
time that I thought we were a little hasty about consider-
ing long-term use of reservation land until I had gotten
my feet a little bit better on the ground. I didn't want
to throw cold water on good ideas, but that some of these
things were coming a little too fast for me. I just couldn't
handle them at this point. He said, well, he'd hold it up
until I got a little better acquainted and we could talk
about it again. I said, "OK." Then Sam Burns and Bob came
in and they were talking to me about a muck enterprise. They
were talking about an area just north of the village which
had about twenty acres of muck. It was varying depths, from
four to eight feet all the way across there, and there's a
lot of muck in there. Before that area could be used for
anything else, that was going to have to be de-mucked anyway.
They wanted to go ahead and work out a project, call it a
muck enterprise, where they would take the muck off and sell
it. Because muck apparently has a pretty good sales value for
people who are starting lawns and things like that in this
area. They wouldn't have any trouble selling. He thought
they could get $1.25 a yard without too much trouble and that
they could handle five hundred yards a day with reasonably good
equipment, which would mean about $10,000 to $15,000 a month.
This wouldn't be flooding the market because we're just talking
about twenty acres to start with, and this is a big area. So I
told them to go ahead and see what they could work out on it and
come in with some specifics on it. I also told them that I thought
they ought to talk with Bill about it, see what he thinks, and
when everybody's in general agreement on it and got something,
well, we'll sit down and talk about it again.
June 11. Sam Burns came in with some preliminary estimates on
the craft items. He said he thought that on the basis of the num-
ber of people that's interested in making crafts and the amount
of time that they could give to this that it would be rather
simple for us to produce anywhere from 30,000 to 50,000 items a
month. But we'd have to have a real good outlet for this because
if we wasn't selling them, why we'd get a backlog, we'd get an
inventory that would drown us. So he thought that we ought to ex-
pand the novelty thing to include cypress furniture and cypress

knee lamps and decorator items made out of cypress knees and
so on. He thought that if we had two shops that were working
we could probably keep forty to fifty Indians busy all the
time and we could pay reasonable salaries. We could pay sala-
ries at least at the minimum wage levels and we could do this
without too much difficulty. He figures that if we had some-
thing to start with, had some money to start with, that as soon
as the facilities were available that we could get started with
very little capital.
June 11. Sam Burns and Bob Davis wanted me to go with them
to look at a cypress knee factory that has been making cypress
items for a long time. It's right on the, on the road. I agreed
that we'd go up there and take a look at the project, and see
how they're getting along, and see what they're doing. Bob Davis
came in and talked to me about right-of-way information for the
Florida Power and Light Company. They need an easement across
the state reservation. Walthrop apparently had been handling this
personally and hadn't kept the staff informed. So he was wanting
to know what I knew about it. Well, I didn't know anything about
it, but the secretary came in with the file, and we sat down and
went over the file to see what was in it. Then I called up the
Florida Power and Light officials and we set up a conference to
discuss the matter with them and see what needs to be done. I told
Bob that he could have the file, and I'd expect him to go ahead
with that, this right-of-way thing, and that he'd keep me informed,
and when they had the conference set up I'd be glad to sit in on it.
I've been thinking a little about setting up an office at Clewis-
ton. Clewiston is about eighty miles from Dania, and it would save
an eighty mile trip every time we went to Big Cypress and Brighton.
If we had our headquarters at Clewiston then we'd be centrally locat-
ed to all three reservations and we could give them all a little more
time without having to travel so much and so long to get to places,
because we've got almost daily need for contact with those people on
the different kinds of projects that are going on. If you have to start
out with a hundred-mile trip to start with, you're tired before you
get started.
June 12. I called my wife and told her that the house was ready
and that we could move in at any time. She told me that our daughter
Annette's little baby was ready to travel now, and so that they'd
just go right ahead and get a truck and get everything packed and
shipped down here, and they'd come on down. So I said, "Okay." I
expect they'll be here in a few days.

June 14. We had a staff meeting this morning. Jack Lewis
explained the road program for this coming year; all of the
work that's to be done. He also gave us a brief resume of
Alligator Alley and what was being proposed and when construc-
tion was going to start there. I also asked Mr. Boehmer who's
our education man but he's very familiar with all the Indians
on both the Brighton and Big Cypress reservations. I asked him
to prepare me a report of the families: each family, how they
get their income, where does their money come from, is it wel-
fare, is it cattle, is it salaries and wages, just where do they
get their money. And he agreed. He and his staff would go to
work on that and see if they couldn't come up with quite a com-
prehensive report on family incomes. I told him the reason I
wanted this information was because one of the big, crying needs
on the three reservations was the need for employment, and we
aren't going to be able to manufacture all the jobs that these
people needed. Therefore some of the other tribes were introducing
new industry onto the reservations, and the new industry was hiring
Indians. I wanted to get some kind of employment assistance help
for the reservations, and I would expect to put that under Mr.
Boehmer's direction and supervision. He was quite pleased with
that, and he agreed to go ahead and get the information I'd asked
for. He said he thought that the Indians could sure use help in
providing and getting employment provided for them.
The tribal housing authority had selected Mrs. Cecil Johns to be
their chairman and Fred Osceola as an alternate. They also have
been working on the selection of home sites for various people,
and Mr. Trickda has been working with them on home improvement
ideas. In other words those homes that we might be able to do
something about improving conditions under. Of course there's a
limit to the amount of the funds that we have; we can't do it for
everybody. So we're thinking in terms of providing assistance to
people who need it the most and who have the least likelihood of
being able to provide it for themselves. Mrs. Jordane arrived at
the meeting and she talked currently about the welfare problems
that exist on the reservations and the need for assistance along
this line. She complimented Mr. Boehmer for his very thorough tour
of the two reservations, and she said she would do everything she
could to try and get us some additional help to work on some of
these problems.
Bill told me that he'd hired a bunch of men to go out and cut
cypress trees and cypress stalk of various kinds that could be

used in wood carving. The reason he's jumping the gun is because
he said that it takes so long for that stuff to dry out and it's
so hard to get the bark off the trees. So he thought that if we
could start in now and the tribe had a little extra money, he'd
go ahead and cut a bunch of that and pile it up behind the build-
ing there, stack it up to dry, so that when we were ready for it,
we'd have a supply of lumber on hand. I thought it was a pretty
good idea, so I told him go ahead with this cypress harvesting.
June 15. I talked with Mr. Boehmer about making a rather
comprehensive survey of all Indian homes on all three reserva-
tions, and do that with the idea that this would be the basic
premise from which we would derive our information for justifi-
cations for various types of housing projects as availability
of money came up. He said, yes, that he thought it was a good
idea, and he'd go ahead and, and get started on that. Mrs.
Stevie Garbarino is a doctoral candidate at Northwestern Univer-
sity, and she told me she was going to write her thesis on the
tribal cattle program and the change in tribal power structure,
etc. She seemed to be quite well and she was interested in
Al Huber, who is the director of credit in Washington. She
asked me if I could tell her a little something about him. I
told her, yes, I knew Al Huber for a long time. First time I
met Huber was back in 1938 when I was assigned to Washington
in the land acquisitions unit. Al Huber at that time was over
in credit in Washington. He was a clerk over there in the credit
branch at that time, and through the years he slowly worked his
way up through the ranks until he now is the chief of the
branch of credit for the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Al Huber's
background is accounting and business administration. He's a
Mormon from Utah, quite devout in his religious beliefs, and
he's a man who's honest, hard-working, and no-nonsense. He's
the kind of a fellow that's pretty serious all of the time about
everything that he does, and he does a good job. He's a very
thorough, very careful worker. He's not given to hasty decisions
to problems. He's pretty careful how he arrives at a decision.
Of course this means that the grist mill grinds a little slow
once in a while because if the top man is going to do a real
thorough review job on all major projects, it's going to take
him some time to do that. If he has a lot of major problems,
then the whole thing slows down a little bit. But Al is the kind of

a fellow that likes to do everything himself. In other words
when Al hires an assistant, it's not someone who he can turn
over a lot of responsibility and authority to. It's someone
who will do what he wants them to do and someone who will de-
pend on him and lean on him. That's what he's really looking
for. Al Huber was a man who also kept his ear pretty close to
the ground. He knew what was going on all the time in the
Bureau, and he knew what the top people were thinking and what
they wanted, and pretty much typified a situation that was ex-
plained to me one time when I was just getting started as sup-
erintendent. John Hunter was a former superintendent, and he
was about ready to retire. I'd just got a job as superintendent.
I was pretty young and fuzzy, and I guess he figured I needed a
little help, so he come over to me and he said, "Rex," he said,
"I want to give you a little advice." He said, "I hope you're not
going to be offended by that." I said, "No, John, I'd be glad to
have any advice you could give me. You've had a lot of rich ex-
perience. I'd enjoy having some of the benefit of that." He says,
"Well, Rex," he says, "there's only one little piece of advice I
want to give you." He says, "What you gotta do in the Bureau of
Indian Affairs," he says, "is you gotta find out what the hounds
are hunting for, and then you hunt with the hounds." Well, I
thought that was pretty good advice in a way. But I think this
typifies what I was saying about Al. He knew how to hunt with the
hounds, no question about that in my mind. He knew what was going
on and he knew what the people in the power positions wanted.
Mr. Bob Pennington, assistant chief of the branch of travel
operations, he used to be my assistant when I was in there, called
me up about our 1966 budget and told me that they had increased
our ceiling from five positions to nine positions. So looks like
I'm going to get some additional help that I had been hoping for,
and some additional money. Then Don Peru called also. Don Peru is
the chief of the branch of property and supply. He called and
they're having a lot of trouble with educational supplies, education-
al equipment, and with the school, getting the new equipment into
the new school and so on. He's not getting as much cooperation from
our property clerk, Cecil Johns, as he thought he should have. So
he told me he was going to fly down and see us, and that he wanted
me to make arrangements for him to get out and look at the school
and so on and go over property and supply records with Cecil. So I
told him we'd be happy to have him and we would certainly do every-

thing we could to help him get to the bottom of his problems.
Mr. Roluff came in, and I talked with him about trading in
antiquities and molesting graves and so on. I told him that we
weren't going to put up with that any more. Any further actions
on his part along these lines was going to result in my turning
the matter over to the Federal Bureau of Investigation because
he was in violation of Federal law. The Indians were quite dis-
turbed about what he had been doing and so on. He told me that
he didn't want to get in trouble with any federal government. He
thought he was doing something that was perfectly legal. He
didn't realize that he was violating the antiquities laws. He
was just trying to get artifacts for various and sundry museums
around the country. He'd been commissioned by some of them to get
some of this material for them, and he was just trying to help
them. But from all I gather, he drives a pretty hard bargain.
There's folks on the landing over here where the tourists boats
come, and they put on a little alligator wrassling and they have
a few Seminoles over there selling novelties and so on, and they
have a kind of a Seminole atmosphere about their operations.
Paul Nelson and I had a talk about what we have to do filling
some of the positions that are vacant, and we decided that we
would move Willa Davis from Dr. Wiley's office because there she
and Dr. Wiley seemed to have some kind of a conflict going most
of the time. She didn't like him too well, and he don't like her
apparently, so we thought we'd just move her out of there. Then
we moved Agnes Johns in there to help Dr. Wiley and we moved Willa
over to forestry and roads. Dorothy Tommy was going to go into Mr.
Davis' office, as Davis' secretary. So when we made all of these
decisions.why, I told Mr. Nelson to go ahead and tell the people
involved what we'd decided to do, and if he had any difficulties
selling the ideas, well, I'd be glad to help him out with that.
June 16. Bill Osceola and I left early in the morning and we
went to Big Cypress to look over the craft shop site there to see
if we could get things worked out there in a little bit better de-
tail. Then we went up to Brighton and looked over that shop up
there, proposed shop. We spent the day making estimates as to what
it was going to cost us to get all this done. Earl Trickda had al-
ready been up there and he'd laid it out pretty well, and so he
had the cost of the structural changes pretty well figured out. So
we put all the things together and it looked to me like we could
probably start both credit enterprises with a neighborhood of

This is on June 17. A task force had been here from Wash-
ington and had been studying the cattle program, and they
had come up with a number of recommendations, and I got a
letter from the Commissioner about that today. They wanted
a comprehensive management plan, clearly outlining the auth-
orities and responsibilities of the bureau, the tribe, and
the University of Florida. They want the grazing fees set by
the credit officer with approval by the superintendent. They
want a full-time manager to have full authority over both
programs. They want to raise the fee immediately to twelve
dollars. They want everyone who has less than 150 head to be
put in a tribal herd, and they want the management of the
pastures and the cows and everything taken completely out of
tribal hands and put solely into the hands of the...
...assistant to the assistant commissioner in charge of re-
sources development. He asked me if I'd read the task force
report on the items that were recommended, and I said, "Yes, I
did." He said, "Well, do you agree with everything that has
been said so far?" And I said, "Well, frankly, no, I don't
agree with it, but that's neither here nor there. That's what
you fellows recommend and now you'll have to give me enough
time to study this over so I can come up with my evaluations
as to what is actually being recommended."
We met with the district state engineer today, and we agreed
on where the Bureau of Indian Affairs roads would connect with
Alligator Alley. Reggie Miller from the Miccosukee agency was
here, and he called John O. Crow, the deputy commissioner in
Washington, and he told them what we had agreed on. Mr. Crow
said, well, he thought that was fine, was all right. John then
asked to talk to me, and he told me that Mr. Massey would be
coming down. Massey wanted to realign the agency staff facilities
and people, and [Crow] asked me to make arrangements for his
visit. He also told me that Ernie Page would be coming down.
Ernie had worked up some cost estimates on the golf course, motel,
and restaurant, and he was going to bring a financial package down
so that we might present this to the Small Business Administration
for a loan. He said they thought they knew what we had in mind,
but before they took the next steps they'd like to have us go over
the situation with them. I called in Saul Wiley and told him what
Mr. Crow had told me. He said he'd been supplying information on
the telephone to those fellows back there. He knew that they had
some plans of their own that they had in mind, and they wanted to

offer them here. Apparently this is not a new idea as far as
the Bureau's concerned; this idea was proposed at one other
reservation in Arizona and it didn't catch there. Now they
wanted to see if they couldn't revise those plans enough so
that they'd fit down here and maybe we could use them. I think
that's a good idea because we haven't gotten to the point yet
where we have our own mind made up as to the type of facilities
we want and the kind of a financial package we have to put to-
gether. So I guess this would be a good idea for us all to sit
down and take a look at some of the thinking that has been
done on a similar type project.
Billy Osceola came over and talked to me and he said that he
had been invited to the Governor's Interstate Conference at
Santa Fe. He thought that it would be to the best interest of
the Seminoles if he went out there and sat in on that meeting. I
said, "Well, I think so too. It doesn't hurt to go." I said, "I'm
familiar with this group. I worked with them on other occasions
and they are very effective, and if they support you, why, it's
very helpful."
Roger Sylvester had been working on a, a youth camp program
with some of the state people, and apparently they'd been think-
ing about setting up a youth camp on either the Big Cypress or
the Brighton reservation. This would then be available to every-
body that wanted to use it. Well, I told him that we'd like to
see what he had in mind and who he was working with and see if
this was going to be a kind of a program that we'd want. I told
him that I'm not the only one who would be interested in it. Both
the board of directors and the tribal council would be interested
in something like this, and they'd want to know how this would
affect them. Mr. Sylvester told me that he had applied to Juneau
for a transfer to a position they had up there before I was moved
down here, and that his wanting to leave had nothing to do with
my coming here. He had made the application before he knew I was
going to come or before he knew Mr. Walthrop was leaving. But he
would like that assignment; he did like that area. He'd been up
there a number of times. He loves Alaska. He asked me if there was
anything I could do to help him since I had wide acquaintances in
the Bureau, and I said, "Yeah, I can do that." I said, "Bob Bennett,
who is the area director up there, is an old friend of mine, and
actually he and I worked together for a long time; different pro-
jects and different places in the Bureau." So I said I'd be glad

to talk with Bob, see what he says about it. So I did. I had
the secretary call Mr. Bennett in Juneau and we got a chance
to talk to each other. I told him about Roger wanting to come
up there and asked if he'd filled his position. He said no. I
told him, "Well, Roger was a young fellow, and had a very at-
tractive wife and an attractive family, and that he was greatly
interested in Alaska. He wanted to go up there in the worst way,
and what do you think? Can you use him?" And Bob said, "Yeah, we
can use somebody like that." He says, "Has his papers been sent
up?" I asked Roger if his papers had been sent up, and he said,
yes, they'd gone a long time ago. So I said, "Yeah, Bob, you got
them. They're up there. So you pull his file out, take a look at
it, see if you can use him. If you can use him, I don't think
you're going to make any mistakes." So then that was it so far
as that conversation was concerned. It later developed that Mr.
Bennett did select Sylvester, and Roger and his family transferred
to Alaska.
June 18. I talked with Page, Ernie Page, in Washington. Ernie
Page is chief of the branch of buildings and utilities for the
Bureau of Indian Affairs. He has a lot of construction money, and
he handles most of the new construction that goes on in the
Bureau. So he was coming down to go over the golf course and motel
stuff with us, and I wanted to talk to him and see when he was go-
ing to come and what he needed in the way of facilities and also
if there was any preparation that we need to do at this end to
get ready for the visit. And he said, no, just get him a motel re-
servation on the beach somewhere, and then we'd get together after
he got down here. He didn't think I needed to be doing any home-
work to get ready for his visit.
I talked to Tom Bowers at Brighton on the telephone. He's been
trying to make a loan from a bank, and apparently the bank feels
that he's a good risk, all right, but they are afraid to loan
money to an Indian. So Mr. Bowers asked me if I would go in and
talk to the bank in Big Cypress, I mean, in Okeechobee, and also
the bank at Clewiston and see if I could change their mind about
loaning money to Indians. I told him I would, I'd be glad to do
that. I did call the bank at Clewiston, and I told them about Tom
Bowers; I said he was a good man, and certainly they wouldn't need
to hesitate about loaning money to him because he's going to pay
everything back that he borrows. They said, "Well, how about your
loans? You've got loans out against him." I said, Yeah." He said,
"Would you subordinate your loans to us?" I said, "Well, I could,
yeah, how much of a loan you gonna loan him?" He says, "Well, he
wants about $1,500." I said, "Yeah, we would subordinate ours to

yours. We'd give you first crack at it." And he said, "OK,
well, with that understanding," he says, "we'll go ahead
and loan him the money." I said, "OK." So I called back to
Big Cypress and told Tom what has transpired with the bank.
He was quite happy, said he'd go in right away and talk with
June 21. Staff meeting. I told the staff that Mr. Crow had
called and said that there was going to be some administrative
reorganization for this agency, and that Mr. Dick Massey, the
assistant commissioner in charge of administration, would be
coming down to discuss it with us. He was going to do his own
staff work on this situation, and he was going to make some
recommendations about this agency. I also briefed them on the
present right-of-way plans for Alligator Alley and the agency
connections that were going to be made. I also briefed them on
the task force report on the land and cattle programs. I told
them that so far as I was concerned I hadn't made up my mind
yet how much of their recommendations that we could accept, but
that we'd be thinking about it and I was going to provide the
interested branch chiefs with copies of the proposals. Mr. Davis
has been working on citrus and the possibility of developing
citrus for the two reservations and has acquired quite a consid-
erable amount of information. He's interested in developing this
for the two reservations. Sounds like it's feasible. Mrs. Fulton,
who's a home economist, came in to the staff meeting and she
told us about her program, what she was trying to do, who she
was working with, and the various kinds of projects that she had
going. She also said that she was working with the same families
that our resource people were working with, the cattle families.
She and Fred Monsteoca both were quite interested in the agency
programs that was being developed. Sam Burns said that he had
located a pulverizer for muck. Apparently this is a machine that
you put muck into and it fluffs it up and knocks the hard lumps
out of it so it makes it easier to spread. You add a little bit
more to the cost of the material when you fluff it up like that.
He said they were about ready to start on that project. They
decided now that they were going to need a very limited amount
of money, less than $10,000 to get started with, and they thought
that once they got the thing going that they could keep ahead
financially. Bill and Sam had agreed on all of the machinery and
equipment that was needed and they were going ahead with it. So
I told Sam that before they got too far down the road they'd
better write all this up and have some sort of an agreement. And

he said, yes, they'd been working on a plan of operation
and that Birdie Clark would have that next week and she'd
bring it into us. I said, "Well, that's fine, but the
board's going to have to approve it, too. So if the board
will approve it and you people will recommend it to me, why,
I'll approve it. And we won't have any big problems with
this one."
June 22. Effie Knowles, an attorney working on the claims,
came up to see me and she wanted me to assist her in getting
her name included on the attorney contracts, the claims con-
tracts of the Seminoles. She wanted a part of the flat 10 per
cent and nothing for miscellaneous expenses, they'd pay for
their own expenses. She had been talking with Bill and Billy
about this, and they were on her side. I could tell when they
came in. The attorney who was handling the contract was agree-
able to it. So I said, well if they would go ahead and make
their proposal to Washington and send us a copy of it, I would
respond. They asked me, said, "Well, you used to be in charge
of these when you were in Washington, couldn't you do a little
something to kind of grease the skids a little bit for us?" I
said, "Yeah, I guess I could do that all right." So I had my
secretary call Bob Pennington in the branch of tribal operations,
and I told Bob about the situation and asked him if he wouldn't
go ahead. He said, "Well, what's your position on it?" I said,
"Well, we're agreeable. If the attorneys want to add another one
to the contract and the tribes are agreeable to it and so on, it
doesn't increase the cost of the contract to the tribe. It just
divides up the contract among just that many more attorneys,
that's all. So I'm not really too concerned about this one way
or another, and I'm willing to approve it if everybody else is
happy with it."
Bill Osceola came over and talked to me about this Community
Action Program that the tribe had submitted. I told him that
the program in my opinion was a little bit weak and that the
Office of Economic Opportunity was going to have a hard time
approving it. He said that there was a Mr. Becktoll in Washington
who had called him and talked to him about that program. He
wanted me to call Mr. Becktoll and see what the present situation
was, what it was and what could be done about it. I told him,
okay. So we called Mr. Becktoll in Washington and talked to him.
Mr. Becktoll decided that this program was unapprovable. He just
couldn't approve it. He told me that there were a number of faults

in it, that it was weak and hadn't been clearly thought
out, and that they just couldn't advance money on some-
thing like that. Bill was pretty downhearted about it,
so I told him, I said, "Well, Bill, don't give up yet."
I said, "Let's do a little more thinking about this and
I'll get a hold of that plan and see if I can read it
again and see what I can come up with." He said, "OK."
June 23. A meeting was held this morning with Reggie
Miller and Buffalo Tiger concerning a letter from Talla-
hassee. They have a state reservation deeded to the United
States in trust for the Seminoles and the Miccosukees.
This letter was prepared apparently by the Miccosukee
attorney. I told them that I would not take action on it
immediately because this was a matter which affected the
tribe and I wanted the tribe's views on it before I took
any action. They understood that. They said, "Well, we'll
just leave it with you, and you study it over and see what
you come up with." I said, "Okay."
The contract had been approved for the releasing of land
to mobile home developers, east of the state road 7. Small
area over there, about twenty-five, thirty acres that is
being leased. It's not being used by the Indians. The lease
has already been developed and has now been approved by the
Bureau. That happened before I got here, so there wasn't
much I could do about that. However, the fellow that had
the lease came over and gave me a check for $8,000 which was
the first installment on the provisions of the lease. I turned
that over to the tribal secretary and treasurer, Laura May, and
told her to put it in an unbudgetted account.
Bill and Billy and the tribal leaders--not only just the
councilmen and the board members, but the leading cattle men
of both reservations--have been in session today. They are talk-
ing over the task force report that was submitted to us. They're
real unhappy with things, and so Fred Monsteoca's over there and
Jim Hale, and they're all going over this; Sam Burns. I told them
I had a lot of work to do and that just as soon as I was able to
I'd get over there, I told them if they ran into a problem or if
they needed me, why, just come over and get me. I'd come over.
They came over to the office, Fred Monsteoca did and Jack Lewis.
They told me that things were going pretty good over there. They
were really talking things out in the open for the first time.
The Indians were saying, "Well, why do you spend so much money for
this?" And these fellows were coming up with the answers, telling

them why they spent it, and what it cost to do these things.
Indians are beginning to get some real information on the
cost of operations for the land operations business, so now
they're beginning to understand a little better what part
they, as cattle operators, are going to have to play. They're
getting into quite a bit of detail. Fred and Jack both told
me that if I had other work to do, just not to come over there
because now the Indians knew that I was going to be sympathetic
for them and they're not hesitating to talk up now. He said he
thought that everybody was being a little suprised by their
attitude, but that they were getting information.
When the meeting was completed Fred Monsteoca and Jim Hale
and Bill Osceola came into my office to talk to me about it.
They said, "Well, this was a good meeting." This was the first
of several meetings that they are planning. So apparently the
group is going to be willing to continue these meetings and will
now be able to air some of our problems out. The report that we
got from this task force is turning out to be a real good thing
because the things that they have recommended, flatly and out-
right, are clear and everybody knows what their recommendations
are, and now they're going to have to fish or cut bait. So it's
turning out to be a pretty healthy situation.
June 24. We had a busy morning. We approved the right-of-way
for the Florida Power and Light Company across the reservation
and we were paid $17,000 for that right-of-way. That money went
directly to the tribe. Also I approved the muck enterprise.
Everything had been drawn up, all the papers, everything was set,
so we went ahead and approved that. The board had already approved
it and everything was all set up, and so just a question of my
signing the papers. Charlie Roven, who is chief of the branch of
welfare for, in Washington called me, and he wanted to send
Venita Lewis down here to help us organize the social studies
that we want to have done in order to better support our Community
Action program. Well, Venita Lewis is a very competent, capable
person, and she's also a very dominant type of a person. She
probably would cause some problems because she's black. I don't
think that in itself is disabling, but I think her personality
combined with that would make it a little bit difficult. I wanted
the welfare worker from Cherokee to come down and do this work
because she did the Cherokee job and she did a very fine job at
Cherokee. Cherokee is reported to have one of the best community

action programs in the whole Bureau of Indian Affairs. Evan-
ella Thomason, the welfare worker who did that Cherokee
study, was having a little problem with Superintendent Dick
Butz up there. Dick was in hot water himself with the Bureau
about his activities there as superintendent. She didn't like
him too well, and I guess she let her feelings be known, and
now they're kind of fussing around with each other at the mom-
ent. But when I talked with Dick about would he assign her to
me for a month or six weeks to help with this problem, why, he
told me I could have her permanently. So I told Dick to let
me know just as soon as they would be able to release her be-
cause if they could give us a week or ten days' notice, why,
we'd get ready for her and we'd get things done. Because I
wanted her here during the compilation of the statistical mat-
erial and also the preparation of the report. He said yes, he'd
do that.
This is Friday, June 25. I got a call from Gordon McGregor
in Washington. He said that the task force wanted to come down
and talk to me, and that they would be here on July 11. They
would run down with me all of the various projects that we had
in mind, but they wanted specifically to get into the cattle
and land operation program and the possibility of developing a
manager for the Indian reservation so far as the cattle and land
program was concerned. I said, well, I would be happy to make
whatever arrangements they wanted. We would certainly welcome
them. We had a problem, and we were glad to have all the help
we could get with it.
June 28. Don Peru dropped in for a brief visit. He brought
me up to date on BIA news and he left for Miami at 9. Bill and
Billy and Bob and I talked with him because we were waiting for
Peter Heller from Miami to come up. So when Don came in, why,
we all had a chance to talk with him a little bit about some of
the things that we were doing up there, and we kind of briefed
him on some of the projects that we were interested in. He told
us that he thought he could get us some surplus equipment of the
type that we needed. So we told him we'd prepare a list and give
him a list of all the stuff that we thought that we were going to
need, and if he could get any of that stuff any place, why, it
would save us buying that. Dr. Wiley came in and talked to me a-
bout the present position he's in with respect to the golf course
and restaurant and motel. He said that he thought that the Wash-
ington office's plans were too grandiose. They were too big, and

that this tribe was too small, couldn't handle anything like
that. He thought that we ought to see if we couldn't get those
fellows to come down a little bit on their planning, not sight
too high.
June 29. I spent most of the day going over the Tribal En-
terprise accounts with Sam Burns, with Lillian Mott, who is
the tribal accountant, and with Jim Hale and Paul Nelson. We
got into quite a lot of detail and it looks to me like the whole
tribal accounting thing has gotten pretty detailed and pretty
heavy and that we're going to have to work something a little
more simple out for them because some of these reports that
they're making, it takes a long time to prepare that material.
Dr. Wiley came in again and he's getting a little more pessimistic
all of the time about this golf course, motel, and so on. He give
me a lecture on the inability of Indian people to meet the re-
quirements of this type of a development. This is something that
was going to have to be very carefully controlled because with
this much money involved and with these heavy expenses, if you
start making bad administrative mistakes you could bankrupt
yourself before you could get things corrected. And the Indians
would never know that they were actually getting themselves into
trouble. But anyway, he was real pessimistic. He didn't think
that they should even tackle anything like this.
This is June 30, the last day of the fiscal year. I spent
most of the day in conference on the cattle and land programs
and working on charts and handout material. Because there are
a number of people that are going to be here that are going to
have to go over this whole thing. We're going to have to do it
in a way that is impressive enough so that people will understand
what we're trying to get at.
Mrs. Stranahan came over today and she wanted to talk with me
and to reminisce a little bit about some of their early struggles
that they had with the Seminoles. How no one was really very in-
terested in their welfare and well-being and they were treated
like step-children by the Federal Government and by everybody else
as a matter of fact. As long as they stayed out on the reservation
and in the Everglades where they weren't in anybody's way, why,
people tolerated them. But she says it was very difficult to get
the Seminoles to accept her. They knew that she was interested in
them and wanted to help them, but they didn't trust her. They
didn't think that she could do very much for them. She told me about
her husband and the trading store they had and all of the deals that
they had made with these Indians, how well they were treated, and

how well the Indians treated them. She was reminiscing quite
a bit. Very interesting to hear her talk because I know she
was instrumental in getting the Indians to settle on the
Dania reservation because the Indians didn't want to come
that close to the white communities. They thought that one
day they'd wake up and all their children would be gone; that
the white people would come in and take all their kids and
send them away somewhere. They had a lot of superstitious ideas
about the Dania reservation. Mrs. Stranahan was one of the peo-
ple that they felt sufficiently confident in that they would
take her word for these things and she just kept reassuring
them that nothing like this was going to happen. So she has
been an important factor in Seminole history.
It might be interesting to take a look at how the central
office of the Bureau of Indian Affairs was aligned back in
1965. There was the office of the commissioner, and in this
organization there was the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, the
Deputy Commissioner, and the Associate Commissioner. Now these
three men were the top line officers. Then in addition to
these three there was the Director of the Division of Engineer-
ing; there was the Director of the Division of Administration;
there was Assistant Commissioner for Community Services; there
was an Assistant Commissioner for Economic Development; there
was an Assistant Commissioner for Education; and there were
several assistants to the commissioner for various purposes.
Some of the people that were going to be influential in our
situation here were tied in to this organization, and we ought
to identify them. Now in Land Operations I think we ought to
go back to the beginning. I've told you a little something about
Jim Hale. He was quite a competent engineer and was selected to
get the project going. I might add that he was followed here by
another man from the Division of Land Operations, Virgil Harring-
ton. Prior to his appointment as superintendent of the Seminole
agency in 1957, he was a Land Operations officer at the consoli-
dated Ute reservation and received a promotion to come here. He
was sent here because at that time the Bureau considered the
major problems of the Seminoles to be involved in their land de-
velopment and in the cattle operation.
From the Washington office there were two people who were di-
rectly involved in Land Operations. Eugene Barrett was formerly
attached to the area Land Operations office in the Aberdeen area
office. From there he was transferred to Washington, and in Wash-

ington he was attached to Mr. Evan Flore's staff. Mr. Flore
was the Land Operations officer, par excellance. He had his
doctorate, he was a man who had written professional public-
ations of all kinds, he had very rich experiences in the
management and the rehabilitation of resource programs, and
he was a man who was greatly influential within the Bureau of
Indian Affairs, not only because of his professional competency,
but because he was a very close personal friend of the chairman
of the House Appropriations Committee. He was quite frequently
the recipient of additional consideration over and above the
amounts that was normally expected in the budget because of this
relationship. His support of a program to the chairman of the
appropriations committee was sometimes all it took to get it
approved. So he was an important factor in the Bureau scheme.
Now he conceived the development of the Seminole land from
Everglades into improved pastures, and he moved his people
around and got them in positions to take over the operations
and get the ball rolling.
Bob Davis, our realty officer, has very little experience
in the Bureau. He was formerly assigned to the Anadarguo area
office in Oklahoma. Prior to that time he was in private in-
dustry, largely as a salesman. He had for many years a very
bad drinking habit and became an alcoholic, and now refrains
from drinking at any time because he's afraid that he might
become addicted again. Bob is not particularly experienced; he
isn't particularly well-trained, and he's sort of a lightweight
all the way around. He and his wife do a lot of entertaining.
They entertain the visiting dignitaries. They have a lovely
home, and he has a boat, and both of them are employed, and they
have no small children, so they're pretty well on. Financially,
they're on their feet pretty well. So they do an awful lot of
entertaining, and they're very personable people, and they go
out of their way to be very friendly and helpful and so they're
accepted on this basis.
Now Dr. Wiley, who I have mentioned before, is a man who had
a very severe accident and he lost one arm. He has a mechanical
gadget on his arm that he uses. Now he also has a sad problem;
he's an inveterate gambler. He gambles all of the time. His
weakness is the dog races, I guess. He goes to those and gambles
heavily. I understand he loses all of the money that he earns and
most of what his wife earns, and they have a lot of marital prob-

lems all the time. Someone told me that he had been divorced
by the same woman three times, so I'm sure they must have had
some serious problems. He's a very moody kind of an individual,
and he seems to be withdrawn, introverted, very deeply intro-
verted. Very infrequently does he express an opinion of any
kind. He couches everything he says in a lot of language, pro-
tective language; he shields himself. He's not what I would
call the kind of a fellow that should be in this situation. He
should be behind a desk some place analyzing reports or some-
thing of that kind, but he shouldn't be trying to administer an
agency program.
Charley Roven, who is the chief of the branch of Welfare in
Washington, is a highly respected, well-qualified employee, and
has many years of service. He's a pretty cagey politician. He's
capable. He's a man who knows what he's doing all of the time.
The other man who is going to be influential down here is
Paul Philips in Reservation Programs. Also George E. Smythe in
Industrial Development. Both of these fellows are newcomers to
the Bureau and both of them are quite a lot alike in many res-
pects. They're very well-trained, have a strong background, and
have a lot of experience. Very little experience in Indian affairs,
but a lot of experience in their own fields. They're highly
thought of back in Washington. I don't know either one of them
very well, but I've heard a lot of good comments on their ability
and there seems to be a general respect for their ability to get
the job done.
One other man I want to mention who's going to be very important
out here, and that's Ernie Page. He's a construction engineer and
was with a construction firm for many years and then caught on in
the Bureau of Indian Affairs and came over. He's now in charge of
plant management work in the Bureau of Indian Affairs and all of
the plant maintenance and management; he has all that. He has an
extremely good staff. He has a lot of money. His appropriations
are quite heavy, and he's a very competent individual. He's a
very handsome man; he gives the impression of being a playboy, but
he's not. He's pretty substantial, pretty solid, and he's got a
good mind. He can make decisions.
The last man that I want to mention is Dick Massey. Now Dick
Massey is an Indian. I've known him since 1929 at Haskell Insti-
tute in Lawrence, Kansas. He's one of the fellows that has been
steadily climbing up the Bureau. He doesn't have too much train-
ing, but he has a lot of experience, and he's bright, he's capable,

he learns fast. He had the advantage of having Mr. Greenwood,
for many years Deputy Commissioner of Indian Affairs, as his
sponsor. Mr. Greenwood was one of the sharpest men the Bureau's
ever had and one of the most capable budget administrators that
we've ever had. Mr. Massey has learned a lot from Mr. Greenwood,
and he's a good man. He knows his business. He'd inclined to get
overly involved in things, and he might at times get a little
bit stiff-necked about things, but ordinarily you can deal with
Mr. Massey. You just can't influence him except with facts, and
you better know what you're talking about when you go in to see
The Bureau is divided on a line-staff basis. In other words,
line officers have the authority to make decisions. Staff offi-
cers are supposed to be the technicians who supply the data
necessary for making those decisions. Now branch chiefs are staff
officers. However, in the Bureau arrangement branch chiefs have
the monies appropriated for their branch and the people assigned
to their branch, not only at the Washington level, but the areas
and at the the agencies' office, as part of their responsibilities.
Now, they don't make all the decisions about these people, but
they are pretty influential. So that most problems from the agency
go to an area office and areusually settled at the area branch
level, and then a decision is sent to you from the area line
officer. Now in Washington most of the problems never get above
the branch. The branch officer, he makes the decision and sends
it back. Once in a while if it's something that might impinge on
policy or there might be a policy question, he'd send it around
to the Assistant Commissioner. But almost never do your problems
get as far as the Deputy Commissioner, the Associate Commissioner,
or the Commissioner. Your problems are handled at a lower echelon
To be able to function within the Bureau of Indian Affairs and
all of its labyrinth of stratifications and complications and so
on, you gotta know it. You have to know it intimately, you have
to know it well, and in many instances you've got to know the
people who are all of these levels and in all of these influential
positions. If you don't, it's going to be very difficult for you
to get through that whole mess of people and get decisions that
are influential. So the superintendent sits at this end. He has the
problems. He has the staff. When he sends something in to Washing-
ton for a response, then he is in a situation where he has to sit
and wait until something happens. That makes it extremely difficult.

So, a superintendent who knows how far he can go; he knows and
understands the delegations of authority; he knows and under-
stands the policies of the Bureau; he knows and understands the
administrative functions of the Bureau; that kind of a person
can function smoothly and much more expediently within this
same complicated framework.
Just a few brief comments about the tribal leaders. The
tribal council is headed up by Billy Osceola who is chairman.
Toby Johns is the representative from Brighton, Frank Billy is the
representative from Big Cypress, and Dan Osceola is the represen-
tative from Dania. The Board of Directors is headed by president
Bill Osceola, Alice Snow is the representative or the board member
from Brighton, Willy Frank is the board member from Big Cypress,
and Mary Bowers is the board member from Dania. Laura May Osceola
is the secretary-treasurer and serves both organizations. I'm
not going to say too much about the tribal leaders at this point,
because I think they are sufficently interesting and sufficiently
involved in the situation to warrant a special tape on them, and
I'm preparing my notes so that I can go into some of the tribal
leaders, not only the current leaders, but the previous set of
leaders and the ones before those, and go back as far as I can in
the memory of some of the people who are now able to tell me about
those things. I'll be doing that pretty soon, so I won't go into
a great deal of detail. I think the two people that are dominant
in this situation, one is Billy Osceola. Now Billy is a very easy-
going, friendly, congenial, fellow. He's not aggressive. He's if
anything a little shy. He's a good leader, and he's a good talker.
He's an excellent talker. Bill, on the other hand, Bill Osceola is
more aggressive. He's a hard worker; he's a doer. He gets up and
goes and he gets things done. Bill is going to take the bit in
his teeth the minute he gets on a job, and he's going to do as much
as he possibly can as fast as he can. Sometimes he makes mistakes in
his haste. But Billy is much more cautious. He's sort of introverted,
he's cautious, he takes it easy and slow, and he likes a slower pace.
So these two complement each other to a certain degree, and they work
well with each other because they both recognize that each has po-
litical strength. Now Toby Johns is a cattleman, but he's kind of
slow. He's a hard worker, but he's slow. He doesn't want to set
the world on fire. Alice Snow is also a good worker. She's well-
respected. So Brighton has two good representatives. Now Big
Cypress has two representatives. Frank Billie comes from the
Ingrahm Billie medicine man family, that's his dad. Josie Billie,

the former medicine man, that's his uncle. So, Frank has got quite
a historical background so far as the Indian medicine is concerned.
Willy Frank is a big, easy-going fellow, but he's pretty stubborn.
He's steady. He's going to be there when everything else is said
and done, why, you'll look over there and Willy Frank will still
be there, and he'll still be trying. Dan Osceola is Bill's younger
brother, and Dan is a pretty smart young fellow. He's pretty cap-
able. He's not as aggressive as Bill, but he's not as slow as
Bill either. He's sort of a compromise of the two. Now Mary
Bowers, on the other hand, she's pretty aggressive in her own
rights. She is the manager of the craft shop and the Indians'
village, and she does a very creditable job. So we have a cross-
section of the Seminole tribe represented on the tribal council
and on the board of directors. They're all traditional Indians
in every sense of the word. They all speak their own language,
they all dress in their own way, they all live in the old tradi-
tional fashion, and they're all Seminoles from the top of their
head to the bottom of their feet.
One of the things that Fred Monsteoca and Jack Lewis both ques-
tioned me about, and I haven't seen any evidence of it yet, is that
there is a severe difference between the Brighton people and the Big Cypress people.
Now the Big Cypress people are apparently more progressive and more willing to accept change,
and they're the ones that
will start out on a project first. The Brighton people as a general
rule will hold back, and they're not quite as fast to get started.
They take a little more persuading and they take a little more work
to get them in gear. Now within these two general categories there
are people who are quite influential on both sides. Now at Brighton,
from what I can understand, the Bowers boys, Andrew, Dick and Tom,
are influential. People listen to them. John Henry Gopher is an
influential man, and people listen to him. Frank Huff, Archie Johns,
and Stanlow Johns, and Toby Johns. Now the Jones, boys, Ollie, Willie,
and Harold, they also are quite influential. Howard Micco is the
spokesman for his group, for his family. Now these are people who are
quite active. In the background, behind this, you're going to find
some of the older people like Frank Shore. Now Frank Shore is the
medicine man of the tribe, and he is still quite influential. A lot
of people wait to see what Frank's going to do before they make up
their mind.
On the Big Cypress reservation Frank Billie and Joe Bowers,
Junior Buster, John Cypress, Junior Cypress, Willy Frank, Billy Johns,
and Morgan Smith: these are fellows that are quite influential.

They're going to be involved in most of the decision-making processes
that go on. Now there are some of the women who are quite influential,
but they're not prone to get into some of these situations like cattle
and land. They're more involved with education and welfare and things
of that kind. But there are a few of them that are quite influential
in tribal affairs. Now Charlotte Osceola, Bill's wife, is very in-
fluential. Laura May Osceola is very influential. Mary Bowers is very
influential. Then on the Brighton reservation Howard Micco's sister
is quite influential, and Fay Tiger is influential. So, all in all,
there are people in the situation that are going to have to be dealt
with. And there are a great number of them. On the Dania reservation
some of the important leaders are Casey Bowers, Philip Frank, Agnes
Johns, Joe Jumper, Moses:Jumper, Jack Motlo, Max Osceola, Howard Tiger,
and Jackie Willie. Besides the elected leaders these are people who
are quite influential on the Dania reservation. This is a mixture;
the Dania is a mixture of Brighton and Big Cypress. It's a mixture
of the Muskogee group and the Miccosukee groups together. Now they
keep telling me, the Indians keep telling me, that the Miccosukee
group can't understand the Muskogee group. Well, they don't seem
to have any trouble talking to each other, and whenever I'm in a
meeting I'm struck by the ease with which they converse back and
forth and tell jokes and laugh and have a good time. I know they're
all, both sides are talking their own language. So there can't quite
be that much difference in their language. However, I don'tknow
enough about the language to be able to judge. But I would say that
the language is no problem so far as the Miccosukees and the Muskogees
are concerned.
At the time I assumed the Seminole agency there were a number of
Indian employees. There was Henry Billie, Eugene Bowers, Junior Buster,
Agnes Johns, Billy Johns, Cecil Johns, Ollie Jones, Joseph Jumper,
Howard Micco, Jack Micco, Jack Motlo, Henry Nelson, Joe Dan Osceola,
Dorothy L. Tommie, Fred Osceola. Then of course there were others
who were on a part-time basis, but these were regular employees.
They're all Seminole. So the Seminole Indian employees are in the
office, in all of the branches, and in the field activities. They're
throughout the whole organization.
I never saw the moccasin telegraph work as fast and as quick, as
accurately, as it does here at Seminole. These people are privy to
all information as secretaries or tribal members or so on, and they
speed this information right back to the reservation, and from the
reservation it goes throughout. Now we've sort of implemented that
by setting up a short-wave radio station. The Miccosukees and the

Muskogees get on that sender and send information back and forth over
the air waves, send it in their own language and nobody can understand
what they're saying. But I have been riding in the cars when they've
been talking and the Seminoles in the car will start laughing because
of what's being said. But they very seldom will tell you because they
want you to know that they've got a communications system right within
your organization that is quite efficient. And it is. It's extremely
The most important thing that happened today was the meeting which
had been scheduled for Clewiston. It was a meeting of the cattle
people from all three reservations. We had a total of about thirty
people there. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss the Bureau's
proposal with respect to future cattle operations on the reservation,
and also to decide whether we wanted to use these proposals or whether
we wanted to substitute some of our own. The meeting covered the
cattle business. We discussed the cattle business from raising a calf
right on to selling it, and all of the problems attendant to raising
that animal. We discussed some sort of an agreement whereby each
cattle raiser would agree to do certain things with respect to his
land and with respect to his cattle. We felt that this agreement
would have to be acceptable to the tribe and to the Bureau, since
the Bureau was an important functioning part of this. We're providing
money, technical advice, technical assistance, and a lot of other
things. So, we have to be involved in the decision-making process,
too. Then we talked about the schedule of fees for grazing fees for
cattle. We also discussed a work schedule, the kind of work that
has to be done each year by cattle owners. We talked about the prob-
able returns from the sale of cattle. When I talked in terms of 50
per cent calf crops, 75 per cent calf crops, and 80 per cent calf
crops, these people really sat up and took notice. We talked about
bull fees. In other words, how much does it cost to maintain a bull
to service your cows? How much of that cost should the cattle opera-
tor pay? We talked about that. We talked about the cost of producing
one acre of grass, and then we talked about the cows; instead of
being able to raise one cow per acre, it took about an acre and a
half to raise a cow. So, besides just talking about these, we had
prepared charts with all this information listed on it. After I got
through explaining a little bit, then Bill would get up and he would
explain it in Miccosukee, Billy would get up and explain it in
Muskogee, then there would be a question and answer period. Then
we'd go onto the next subject. When we got to some subjects we didn't
get any agreement at all. When we talked about grazing fees they went

right up through the ceiling, and the meeting got exciting. The
Seminoles jumped up and there was four or five of them standing up
at one time wanting the floor, all wanting to say something. But
it was a good meeting, and nobody got real mad. We got excited but
didn't get too mad. They talked this thing over, and we didn't get
near as much accomplished as I'd hoped we would. But we got a lot
said, and that was important. We didn't make decisions, but we now
know what the problems are. It was an excellent meeting because
people got their ideas out. They talked them over and they began
working together, which was quite important.
July 2. I spent most of the day in the office reading mail and
getting caught up with paper work. Every'once in a while you gotta
stop long enough to read the mail and sign some letters and keep
things rolling. But fortunately for me I've got a good assistant,
Paul Nelson. He uses good judgment. He knows what he can handle
and what I should handle, and he takes care of a lot of the work.
He lightens the load for me immensely. I fell quite fortunate to have
a man like him on the staff. Paul came here under a cloud. Guess he
got into some kind of political entanglements up in Alaska and the
people up there wanted him transferred out. So the Bureau trans-
ferred him to Florida, which is about as far away from Alaska as you
can get. But Paul's a good employee. I can understand where a
fellow can make some political mistakes. I don't know what Paul's
were, and I didn't bother to get into them too much. He's doing a
good job here, and that's all that concerns me.
I met with Sam Burns, Birdie Clark, Miss Matlow, and Bill Osceola
about the craft shops. We discussed those at some length, and they're
about ready to prepare some plan of operations on those. It looks
very much like we're going to have to go to Washington to get some
money for these programs 'cause I don't want to sit here and write
letters and fiddle-faddle around with this thing. I think we'll have
to go back there and talk to the commissioner and see if we can't get
him to cut a little money loose for us so we can get started with
this stuff. This evening Bob Davis and Willa Davis came over to our
new house to look it over. We don't have much furniture here yet,
my stuff hasn't come, but I was glad to have them come over and look
at the house. They liked it. I had it painted and decorated, getting
ready for the family to get here, and I had some new carpeting put
in and some drapes. I'm having central air-conditioning set in, so

it should be adequate once we get everything the way we want it. But
Bob took that time to tell me that he was interested in the Seminole
Federal Savings and Loan Association. He told me that this was going
to be a great thing for the Seminoles, and that their petition had
already been sent to the state asking for a charter for this savings
and loan association. Their home base was going to be the Dania re-
servation, and they were going to develope, help the development of
the Dania reservation on a long-term basis. The tribe would be get-
ting employment and rentals out of it. Bob said that the investors
would pay dividends. He's been into this thing quite extensively, he
and Saul Wiley, apparently. This is the first I've heard of it, but
it sounds to me as though we're going to have a little competition
from all the people in the savings and loans for the use of the
Dania reservation! Bob's very, enthusiastic about it, so I didn't
say much, I just listened to him. But I don't like the idea too
July 3. Fred Monsteoca called, and he and Jack Lewis wanted to
come down. They had some problems they wanted to talk with me. They
feel that the meeting at Clewiston was an extremely good meeting, but
they think that we ought to take it a little easier on the grazing
fees. They said they'd like to come down and talk it over in more
detail. I agreed. I said it'd be a good thing if they did because
I'd like to know just what they have picked up about the Indians
about our meeting that would help me, because we're going to have
another meeting, probably a number of them, and I want to be sure that
we're not covering the same territory twice.
July 6. Dick Massey and Ernie Page arrived, and I had an opportunity
to brief them on the Seminole situation. We talked about the land, the
cattle, management, the restaurant-motel, golf courses. In the course
of the discussion, Ernie asked me if we'd had any percolation tests in
the areas to see what kind of construction problems we had. I said,
no, we hadn't gotten to that point yet, but I thought we could get
those any time he wanted them. Ernie said, well, never mind, he'd go
out. He wanted to get some aerial photos and he wanted to layout the
golf course on a map. So he thought he'd walk the area, then he'd
order whatever he needed in the way of special engineering data. I
said, "Well, that's fine." He gave me a kind of a set-up that they'd
been working on and asked me to study it over, look it over and see
what I thought of it. He said that as soon as they got a chance to
study things over, why then we could sit down and talk that over. We
could meet with our group and see where we stand on that.

Fred Monsteoca called me and said that Frank Shore had invited me
to go to the Green Corn Dance. He wanted me to come up, but I have
so many appointments and one thing or another that I'm not going to
be able to get away 'til this evening. Reggie Miller and Goldie
Clark came over to talk to me about minerals on the state land. He's
still fussin' around about those minerals. I told him as far as
we're concerned, we'd go along with anything that's reasonable and
we'd sure like to have those minerals, but we are satisfied that we
have the right to use the property. They have a deed that their
attorneys had drawn up, and so I had Bob Davis look it over. I
told Bob he had to call the tribal attorney, Mr. Ryan, and see if
he couldn't get him to come up and look at it. But I could tell
that Reggie Miller and Goldie Clark were a little bit put out with
me because I wasn't really excited about those minerals. I'm sure
that if the minerals have value the state knows about it. I don't
think that we're going to be able to hoodwink the state into giving
us something that's very valuable that they don't know anything
about. I know they probably know more about it than we do, so I'm
not so concerned about that. I think that the thing is that this
oil play that's going out to the west of the reservation here has
gotten people excited, but I don't think that we're going to see
much of that money.
July 7. I didn't get a chance to go to the Green Corn Dance
and I had to send Cecil Johns up to Frank Shore and apologize for not
going because I got a very bad headache and I had to go to the doctor
and he put me to bed. So I didn't get a chance to go up and see that
Green Corn Dance or participate in it. Cecil, when I told him what
I wanted to do, said he'd be glad to do that. So he went up to
July 8. Dick Massey and Ernie Page went down to Miccosukee and
they spent a good deal of time talking with Jim Hale and Sam Burns.
Bill Osceola told me that Jim Hale and Sam were really filling those
fellows in on the cattle and land program here. He said that he just
figures that Jim Hale is bent on opposing the tribe on everything that
they want to do. He says every time we get an important problem up
here, he's fightin' us. He said the tribal leaders are just sick and
tired of him. They're just tired of him being in the way all the time.
They said that Sam Burns has said things about the Seminoles that they
didn't like. They didn't like the way he was talking about the Indians.
Well, I know Dick and Ernie probably are amused by all of this. This
is not in their baliwick. They have no real concern about this. They're
going to leave this matter up to my judgment. If they feel that there's
something wrong, Dick will go talk to his associate, the Assistant
Commissioner in charge of economic development. He'll give him his

views, but he's not going to involve himself in this problem. But
those fellows at the agency, they don't understand. They don't know
that and they think that by getting his ear, that they're, you know,
really getting their side of the story told.
At 6 P.M. we had another meeting at Clewiston. We talked over
the same matters again, some of great concern, and we began to really
make some progress now. They are talking in terms of raising the
grazing fees January 1, 1966, they're willing to raise to twelve
dollars; January 1, '67, to fourteen, and January 1, '69, to eighteen
dollars. They also feel that if the calf crop percentages can be
increased like we say they can then they say that they can pay that
grazing fee. But if the calf crop can't be increased, then those
grazing fees are going to put them out of business. So we talked
about pregnancy testing; the importance of selling the open cows,
getting rid of them, and replacing them; taking that money and re-
placing them with bred cows. Because an open cow means that you
just feed her one year for nothing; a bred cow, you feed her one
year and she gives you a calf that you can sell. So, the Indians
were less excited about this thing. They'd had a week or so to think
it over and now they were getting down to a point where they were
willing to give a little on it. Their concern, however, is in the
administration, and they want the tribe to have a say-so in the ad-
ministration. They don't want all that turned over to somebody else.
They figure it's their cattle, it's their cattle, it's their land,
and it's their money, and they're going to have something to say
about it. They're not going to turn all that over to somebody else
and let them manage it and tell them what they can do and so on.
They don't like that too well. So the question of management is a
problem that hasn't been resolved.
July 9. Dick Massey and Ernie Page and Paul Nelson had gone over
some proposals to set up an office at Clewiston and try and centralize
our affairs at Clewiston, so that we could provide coverage to Big
Cypress and to Brighton as well as Dania without having to travel so
far. However, I told them that I liked the idea, I'm for it, but that
the tribal council and the board of directors didn't like it, and they
would oppose it. Ernie said, "Well, we can draw up the plans and
specifications anyway and submit them, and if they're turned down then
nothing is lost. But if they're accepted, then we're in business."
So, I agreed that so far as I was concerned part of the staff could
be assigned to Clewiston and some of our work staff could then be
made available, headquartered at Clewiston. We could cover all three
reservations much easier that we're doing it right now.

July 12, Monday. Bob Waugh, Eugene Barrett, Gordon McGregor,
and Bob Jones arrived from Washington, D.C. Bill Osceola, Jim Hale,
Sam Burns, and I briefed them on what has been transpiring at these
Indian meetings and what we have accomplished to date. They asked
questions all morning about these meetings and the problems and what
the tribe's attitude has been and so on. They're quite determined
about sticking with their recommendations, and they're sort of be-
littling all of the actions that actually have taken place so far
as we're concerned. One thing that they seem to be adamant about is
in management. They said there can be Indian foremen on both reser-
vations, but that the manager has to be a white man and he has to
be paid by the government and he has to be under the supervision of
the Land Operation officer. So we spent the better part of the day
talking about these things, but we didn't really make any headway.
I told them that I wasn't about to retreat from my position and I
didn't think they had a very good, tenable spot either. I think
we're going to have to talk about this some more. So, that was the
end of that day, but it looks to me like it's going to be a long
July 13. Bill and Billy and I left at 4 A.M. to go to Miami and
fly up to Tallahassee. We got up there and we met with the Florida
Development Committee, Bob Henry, the promoter. Then we met with
some of the state people, and we had lunch up there with Mr. A. J.
Ryan. He took us over to the governor's office and we had a few
words with him. The Cabinet met and Billy spoke for the Seminoles,
thanking the state. Buffalo Tiger spoke also thanking the state.
Bill Byler was there and so was Bob Mitchell. The cabinet wanted
assurances from the Bureau of Indian Affairs that projects are
planned and that the area will be developed, that the state reser-
vation will be developed. We were able to give them those assurances.
We told them what we were doing on the Big Cypress reservation and
the plans we had to include the state reservation in our future pro-
July 14. We had worked up a cattle raisers agreement based on
the position that the tribal leaders and the cattle men had taken
at the meetings that we've had. We spent most of the day talking
about this with this high-powered committee that came down from
Washington. We always got hooked on the management problem:, but
Bob Jones then finally came out. He's assistant to Al Huber in
credit, and he suggested that Jim Hale be given overall management
of the cattle and of the land operations program. I told them
that if he wants to start the Seminole wars all over again that'd

be a good way to do it. I told them that a new man that would come
in, it would take him a couple of years to get to the point where
the Indians would trust him enough to listen to him. And that the
Indians already trust Fred Monsteoca and I think that he's worked
with them ever since they had cattle. He knows their programs; he
knows their problems; he knows these people. In preference to
have Jim Hale in charge of the total program, I'd put Fred Monsteoca
in charge of the total program. Well, this developed a complete
impasse, and we finally went home then; nobody speaking too much
to anybody else, but no closer to a decision either.
On July 15 Gordon McGregor, Bob Jones, Gene Barrett, Jim Hale,
Bob Burns, and I went to the Mormon ranch to look it over. We
had chartered a plane to go up there. But Philio Nash apparently
wanted the committee to look at that state, that Mormon ranch up there
and get some ideas about how they were operating and see if there
was anything up there that could be used on the reservation. He was
anxiously searching for outs to some of our problems.
July 16. We've been talking several days about the cattle pro-
gram. Today Bob Waugh decided that we ought to change the subject
and give ourselves a little breather, so he wanted to talk about
some of the other programs that we had here. He talked about the
importance of an industrial park in this area. He said he thought
that if we could consider sixty-six acres for an industrial park, a
certain tract that we had, that he thought that he could get the
Small Business Administration or some of the other organizations in
Washington to come up with the money so that we could develop this
and put it into effect. He also talked at great length about the
arts and crafts operation. He thought that this idea of having a
sewing group at Brighton and a wood carving group at Big Cypress
was extremely good and he thought that the present village was bad,
and something had to be done to straighten that out, get it back the
way it was. Because at one time, he said, it was a very enjoyable
tourist attraction, but it had really gone downhill the last few
years. He said that he had been talking with Ernie Page and Dick
Massey about the golf course and motel and he was very anxious that
this project proceed as rapidly as possible. The group decided that
they had to resolve this livestock raisers' agreement and the problems
raised. So they wanted to go back over it point by point. We did
that, and we didn't have any real big disagreements. The only thing
is the management. They want Jim Hale to run the whole thing, and I
don't want him to because he can't get along with the Indians. That

would just hurt the cattle program, so I've held out strongly for
Fred Monsteoca because Fred is much more acceptable to the Indians
and because he knows the cattle business a lot better than Jim
Hale does. So there's two things here. But they worked on me
pretty hard, Bob Jones and Gordon McGregor. Now Gordon, he's an
oldtime superintendent. He used to be superintendent up at Northern
Cheyenne, and he had an agency up there for a long time. I've
known him. He was on the Missouri Valley group that came down to
work on the reservation when I was at Fort Brissell to help us
when we were relocating those Indians that were being inundated by
the Garrison Dam. So I've known Gordon a long time. He's an anthro-
pologist and he's quite a capable guy, but I guess he recognized that
they weren't going to change me. I had made up my mind and I was
too experienced, too well acquainted with the Bureau power structure,
and had too many friends in Washington to be overwhelmed by a com-
mittee of this calibre coming out here and trying to impose itself
on us. He pulled back first and then Gene Barrett said, "Well,
it's your problem." He says, "I guess we're going to have to leave
it with you." Bob Jones was the adamant one. He says, "Well, Rex,
we don't agree with you." He says, "I'm going home. I don't agree
with you any more now than.I did when I came." I said, "'Well, Bob,
that's your privilege. I don't agree with you either." Bob Waugh
said, "Well, Rex," he says, "at least we've talked it over." He
said, "We know exactly where you stand, and why you've made the
decision that you've made, and why the tribe is in its present posi-
tion, and we respect all of those things. It's just that there are
some people in Washington who feel that we should be pulling out of
Seminole to some extent rather than getting in deeper. And your
proposal is going to cost the government some money. I don't think
they're prepared to spend the money here. It's just that simple."
So, anyway, we shook hands and talked it over a little bit more, and
then we all decided that that was it. They'd go home, make their
report, and then I would submit my proposals as and when I got them
July 19. We had a staff meeting and I briefed the staff on what
was going on, what the committee was doing down here, what Ernie Page
and Dick Massey were interested in and what they had recommended to
us, and what was being done. It looks like we're going to get some
economic development studies made, feasibility studies, and it looks
like we're going to present this whole situation in toto to a number
of different government agencies in hopes that we can get funding

somewhere for the golf course, the motel, and restaurant. Mr. Massey
said he would put a good word for us for some of the other projects
that we wanted like the arts and the craft shops that we were asking
for and the muck project and a few things like that. So I told him
that I thought we ought to go back and explain those as soon as we
get our papers drawn up. He said that he would see that we got an
invitation to come whenever we were ready.
The staff was fully aware of the fact that the committee that
had come down from Washington was here soley for the purpose of
changing my mind about the position about their recommendations, and
they were wondering just how many of those recommendations that I'd
had to swallow, I guess. Anyway, they asked me a lot of questions
about it. I told them that we had some long discussions about the
thing and that we couldn't defend all of the actions of the Indians.
At the same time we didn't want to condemn them either. We felt
that our Indians under good management, under healthier circum-
stances and climate, could make a lot of fast progress in the cattle
business, and that we were at a point now where this was all entirely
The credit people brought us up to date on how far they had pro-
gressed with the new projects that we are working on. Then we talked
about a law and order problem that had been creeping up on us and I
told them that Bill Benge, the chief of the branch of Law and Order,
would be in today, scheduled to come in today, and as soon as he got
in we're going to have to sit down and see if we couldn't get some
problems worked out with the sheriff at Hendry County and Glades County.
We felt that there was much that could be done in the field of law
and order without having to go to a lot of expense.
A meeting was set up for me at 8 P.M. with Dr. Uchan Hugh Blick-
stein and Ira Greensboro. Bill Osceola and. Billy were there, so were
Bob Davis and Saul Wiley. I came to the meeting and it turned out to
be on the Seminole Savings and Loan application. Apparently they had
submitted an application for a charter for the Seminole Federal Savings
and Loan Bank, and now they were wanting me to support them. They
had been told that John O. Crow had actively refused to support their
application. I told them that I agreed with John Crow, and that I
felt that the highest and best use of the land was not necessarily
leasing it to somebody else and taking it out of Indian use and oc-
cupancy. I thought that that land was set aside for Indians and should
be used by them, and just because they can get a big lease from it is
no sign that they should divest themselves of their reservation. I
didn't think that's what the Congress had in mind when they set the

land aside for them. Well, they didn't like my attitude at all.
They said that they were under the impression and they got down on
Bob Davis. They said, "Now Bob, you told us that the superintendent
was lined up, and that he was in our camp, and that he was going to
support us." Mr. Davis was really behind the 8-ball because they
told him flat out in front of me that he had promised to deliver
me into their camp on this matter, and here I was opposing them.
Well, anyway, I told them that as superintendent of the reserva-
tion I didn't have the authority to make a decision on this matter
anyway. This was a matter which involved the use of tribal land, and
the tribal council and the board of directors would have to decide.
When they made that kind of a decision, then I would make a recom-
mendation about their action and it would go into Washington. The
secretary would have final deciding say on it, because you couldn't
obligate tribal trust lands without the consent of the Secretary of
the Interior. So I told them, you fellows are working at the wrong
end. You ought to be working at the Washington end on this thing.
They had made a very extensive feasibility study. They told me
that they'd spent $10,000 on that study, and it was a formidable
looking document. I imagine that it had a lot of good information.
But I told them, I said, "Well, I'm sorry, gentlemen, but the way I
feel about this, this reservation was set aside for Indians and I
want to see that the Indians get to make the most use of it. And
that's my position." So they said, well, they were glad to have a
chance to talk to me and they're sorry that things didn't work out
any better than they did. But they'd have to go along themselves, see
what they can get done without any support from the Bureau.
July 20. I rehashed the meeting of last night with Bill and Billy
and told them that I thought that this was a pretty doggone bad busi-
ness to try and lease this land right out from under the Indians be-
cause where would they have to go if all of their land was gone? Where
would they live? So, Bill and them said, "Well, we'd reserve some of
this for them. We wouldn't lease it all." I said, "Well, that isn't
the way those fellows said. They said they were just going to take
over this reservation. And you ain't gonna have anything more to say
about it. They're just going to lease the whole thing. They're
going to pay you when and if they sell a piece of it. If they sell
a house and then they'll give you lease money for that land. Until
then the rest of this land is under the lease, but they don't pay
for its use." I said, "This is a real bad situation." "It would
never be approved by the secretary," but I said, "so you really weren't
in any danger, but this is bad business." And I said, "Whose idea

was this?" And they said, "This was Bob Davis come up with this idea."
I spent most of the morning working on the cattle raisers' agree-
ment and my report to Washington about the meeting with the committee,
trying to justify my position. Evanella Thompson from Cherokee came
in after lunch. Mr. Nelson had gone to the airport to bring her out.
She and I sat down and talked about the Community Action program, and
she showed me the Cherokee report. I told her, well, that's about
what we wanted here. We wanted heavy emphasis on a children's program.
We wanted child care centers, and we want kindergartens, and we want
youth activities of every kind and description that is available under
their programming. I felt that we were going to have to get a lot of
statistics. I'd spent a lot of time checking the educational records,
checking welfare records, checking law and order records and all the
other agency records, and I didn't think that any of the statistical
information that we had was usable. We were going to have to go out
and get all this stuff ourselves, and the tribal council was going to
employ some young people. What we would do was sit down and work out
the format, and then she could work with these young people and train
them and then start them out. They would get all this information
for her. I think that we could probably get that without too much
delay. It wouldn't take too long, because none of the reservations
are really that big.
July 21. We took Evanella to Big Cypress to look over the reser-
vation so she could get an idea of the physical layout there. Earl
Trickda went along with us so that we could get an idea of what was
needed in the way of facilities, what costs would be, and so on. The
idea was to look at all of the usable facilities and to see whether
some of these can't be converted to Community Action-type programs.
So Evanella and Earl spent a lot of time looking things over and
talking about these various things. Then I pointed out that some of
the old school buildings could be moved and we could set up a compound
and get all that stuff in one place. Then we could turn it over to
OEO, and OEO could, once we got programs established, could use it for
these various programs. She thought that that was a good idea, so
they sat down and worked out the cost of that kind of an operation.
Then they talked about, you know, all these things that they needed
in terms of equipment, refrigeration and cooking facilities, and all
that sort of thing, and sleeping arrangements for the little children
and classrooms.
While they were looking at those facilities I went out and looked
at some of the calves that were being sold. Oh, boy! Some of the

calves run about 300 pounds, and the better half of the calf crop
was running around 350 pounds. At 21 a pound, it will bring you
about $75 a head, which is pretty low. The problem here is these
calves are...the variation in size is the result of erratic breed-
ing. They keep the bull in the pasture with the cows year-round,
which is bad business. You're going to get calves all sizes and
descriptions. You try and sell all your calves at one time, you're
going to have a motley looking group just like they have, and you're
going to wind up with a low average weight. So the breeding is
going to have to be improved. In other words, you're going to put
the bulls in with the cows in January and February and March, and
then pull them out. Sell the open cows and get some bred animals
in their place. You're going to start developing, improving your
calf crop and improving the grade of steers that you're selling.
Instead of selling 300 pounders, you'll be selling five and six
hundred pounders.
July 22. We went to Brighton and we did exactly as we had
done at Big Cypress. We had gone over most of the facilities up
there and looked at everything. We were trying to get lined up
with some kind of facilities so that if we do get any money from
OEO, we can use it. I left early because I had to go to Clewiston
to meet with Bill Benge who's going to talk with the sheriff there.
We were going over to Moore Haven and then over to LaBelle to talk
with that sheriff, so I agreed to meet them that evening at Clewiston
when we got back.
Bill Benge and I met with Sheriff Lundy of Glades County, Sheriff
Deis of Hendry County, and Don Watson, the probation officer,regarding
law and order on the Big Cypress and Brighton reservations. They seemed
to be willing to cooperate, they just didn't know how to do it. So,
Bill said, "Well, we put two short-wave radios in cars on the reserva-
tion, and then whenever the Indians needed help, they could get on
that short-wave radio and call the sheriff." And that seemed to be a
good idea. Everybody thought that was all right. So all we have to
do now is find two Indians that we can put short-wave radios in their
cars so that they can get in touch with the law enforcement people
when they need help.
July 23. I spent most of the day in the office trying to get
caught up with paper work and getting some of the programs off the
ground. Trying to get things organized so that we can get started
on these things. Our craft shops look pretty good. Looks like we're
going to be able to get started on our woodcarving craft shop for

Big Cypress and a sewing shop for Brighton. The program that we've
got outlined here seems to be feasible. Everybody's agreeable. The
board of directors and the tribal council both are agreeable to the
July 26. Bill hired a carpenter to work on these craft buildings
and shops. We're not quite ready for that. The fellows's over there,
been there for three or four days, and I guess we're paying him five
or six dollars an hour. He's not doing anything; he's going to have
us broke. So we're trying to run Bill down to see what this fellow
was supposed to be doing. I got a hold of Laura May and she said that
this man's not supposed to come to work for another week yet. So she
got on the telephone with him and she got him straightened out and
so he's gone now. So that's the way it goes. Bill gets excited
about these things and before you even get the programs approved,
he's spending money.
July 27. Sam Burns, Bob St. Arnold, Birdie Clark, and Roger
Sylvester all have put their two cents' worth in, and we now have
completed enterprises for the craft shops. The papers are all lined
up and now it's just a question of getting the tribe to agree to it.
But Bill wants to have some meetings at Brighton and Big Cypress be-
fore we take any action on this. So I guess we'll have to arrange
for that so we can explain to them what it is that we're proposing to
do and how it's going to work. I'm a little dubious about that be-
cause we can't have any agreement from Washington that they're going
to fund it yet.
Evanella Thompson and Paul Nelson are working on the community
action program so they're going to relieve me quite a bit about that.
Charlie Roven called and I told him that we would like to have Evanella
stay here for at least a month. He said, well, he'd do the best he
could with Dick Butz, but Dick was not always the easiest guy to ne-
gotiate with.
July 28. I finished the draft of my report to Washington on the
cattle situation and cattle raisers' agreements and so on. We're
going to go up to Big Cypress or Brighton this evening and talk to
the people about the cattle raisers' agreement and see if we can get
them to agree to it.
July 29. We went to Big Cypress and we went over the cattle
raisers' agreement and so on with the people at Big Cypress. There
is some disagreement on some aspects of it. But I told them that
we'd gotten as far as we could get with this and that I had to give
some, they had to give some, and that the Bureau's going to have to
give some on this thing.

July 30. The Brighton people wanted to meet again, so we drove
up to Clewiston to meet with them. It turned out that they didn't
mean Clewiston, they meant the reservation, so we went on up to the
reservation and met with some of the people. We met with Jack Smith,
Toby Johns, old Charlie Micco, Cody Micco, Andrew Bowers, young Jim
Shores, and some of the other fellows. We met at the cattle sheds
across from old Charlie Micco's house. We talked about the present
land development program and cattle program, and we also talked about
the craft shops and what we're planning to do there and so on. These
fellows had just talked about it the day before but they still wanted
to talk about it some more, so we did. Then we went over to the school.
Dick Bowers was over there, and he told us that there were some people
that were interested in the community action program and they wanted
to talk with us. So we said, "Where were they?" He said, "Over to
the church." So we went over there and there were a number of people
over there that were interested in the community action program, so
we sat down with them. Alice Snow was there and Fay Tiger, and a
number of the other people. We talked about day care nurseries,
kindergartens, family services, and the need for Seminole people to
man positions in the organization to provide these services so that
the people who are working would have a place to leave their children
and where we would have a chance to work with these children, teach
them a little English before they get into school, get them into
pre-kindergarten situations and so on. Then they discovered that
they wanted to talk about the pow-wow that was going to happen and
so on. They invited me to stay for a meeting that night. So I
said, "Okay," and we went back to town and got a little something to
eat and we came back. We had a meeting at the school that lasted 'til
eleven o'clock. They talked about the pow-wow; they talked about
all kinds of things. They just had a good old-fashioned talk. Every-
body was talking. I sat there for hours, I guess, just listening to
the people talk in Seminole. I didn't know what they were saying,
but everybody was talking. They were all having a good time, so I
just sat back and listened to them; let them have at it.
Monday, August 2. I talked with Sy Fryer, the Assistant Com-
missioner for Economic Development. I gave him a thumb-nail sketch
of what my report was going to contain concerning the cattle program
and the land development program. I also told him that the tribe
was getting a little bit disturbed with Jim Hale, and I thought it
was about time that they moved him. He agreed. He said that every-
body could see this coming and they appreciated the fact that I wasn't
really pushing it. I told him that the tribe had gotten to the point

now where they were really getting just provoked with him, and it was
difficult for him to say anything, because every time he said anything,
why, they'd jump up and disagree with him.
August 3, Tuesday. Evanella Thompson gave Billy Osceola, Paul,
and I a brief rundown on how far she was able to develop the community
action program. Jimmy Scott Osceola came over to the office and he
was pretty provoked. He paid a carpenter $350 to fix his roof and he
hadn't done a thing yet. He wanted me to get that carpenter busy so
that he could get his roof fixed.
We have a number of VISTA workers here. They were assigned to
the three reservations. They apparently are being briefed by their
own people because they haven't come in to see us and they are leaving
us strictly alone. They're not having anything to do with the Bureau
or the agency. They're working completely on their own. Billy has
been over talking to me about them, and he's kind of anxious. He'd
like to know how to get rid of them! So I told him, I said, "Billy,
let's wait and see what develops first." He said, "I don't want to
wait." "Things are going too good now," he said, "we don't want them
here to make trouble." He says, "Everything is going along fine and
we don't need them."
Another meeting was scheduled for Clewiston at 5 P.M., I mean 7:30,
so Fred Monsteoca called and asked me to come. I said I'd come up
and I got my charts and everything and put them in the car and took off
for Clewiston. We had another meeting on cattle and we talked about
different aspects of cattle. We talked about pregnancy testing, and
we talked about the bulls, and we talked about the importance of good
breeding practices and so on so we'd get an even, improved calf crop.
We had a good meeting, It lasted 'til about midnight, I guess. Every-
body finally left, but it was up towards midnight before we completed
the meeting.
August 4. I went to Big Cypress. They were selling cattle down
there and Fred wanted me to come down and look over the cattle sales.
So we went down. Also he wanted me to look over some of the area that
has been assigned to improved pasture, for improved pastures. The
stuff had been leased out and we're going to be getting it back pretty
soon, and the question is whether we can afford to really put it into
improved pasture on the basis of our present income. So we were
talking about whether we could afford as much improved pasture as
we could get. We went down and looked that thing over that day.
August 5. We spent the day working on papers and getting some of
our jobs lined up, getting some of the things in the mail that need
to get sent to Washington, and getting ready for our projects. But

most of the people who came down to see us have gone. We don't have
any Washington officials here. This is the first time for a long
time we haven't had one or two Washington officials in the office.
...association had a meeting and of course they scheduled us as
speakers, so we had to get up there at 9:30 in the morning. We left
pretty early. But again what they wanted to talk about was the need
for permanent jobs on the reservation. They wanted to know how the
craft shop, the textile shop, and the other programs that we had
were going to produce these, and theywanted to know about the community
action programs. So we spent quite a little time talking about those
and how they would affect the members of the reservation and what
benefits they would get from those kind of programs and so on. Again,
they wanted to talk about the cattle program. They recognized the
importance of having good bulls and the importance of pregnancy test-
ing; they just didn't know whether, even if they did all of this, they
would get to an 80 per cent calf crop. But they were hoping that
eventually they would get there. We told them that if they put their
minds to the task, they would get it done, no reason why they couldn't
do it. It wasn't a question so much of doing something that no one
else had done. It was just a question of them getting caught up with
some other groups. I said, "Other Indian tribes have already done
this. They've already done this. They've gone through all of these
problems a long time ago and they've cleaned them all up. They've
got their cattle program on a much different basis than you have. So
you've got a lot of catching up to do." I told them that if a man had
seventy head of cattle and he bought thirty more cows, he'd have a
hundred head. In five years he could have two hundred head, and he'd
be in pretty good shape when he had two hundred head if he had 80 per
cent calf crop because he'd have a 160 calves each year and a good
many of those could be sold. Not all of them, of course, because you
have to hold back some calves for herd replacement and so on, but most
of the steers could be sold. That would really improve their living.
They'd live a lot better if they could get to that point, but I thought
that it was going to take everybody working together to get those
things done.
The cattle association then had an election. They were going to
vote on a member. Tom Bowers won with thirteen votes, Toby was second
with nine, and'Jack Smith was third with seven. Barfield Johns and
Robert Osceola each had four. After the election, lunch was served
to us.
August 9, Monday. Today I had a long talk with Assistant Com-
missioner Fryer, Gordon McGregor, Bob Jones, and Eugene Barrett on

the cattle program. I told them that we could only face a four-
year program at this time. There were too many unknown factors
and too many problems, particularly at Big Cypress where we've had
a heavy rainy season. We've had big drainage problems, and it's
expensive to drain water off these fields when you have to pump
it. We have to have some new canals in because some of the present
canals are draining out on the reservation. We're not only pumping
the water that comes down, but we're pumping water that's being washed,
flooded in on us, and it's adding to our costs. We had to get a lot
of things done before we could finally get the tribe to reach the
$18 per animal grazing fee, and I felt that the cattle raisers'
agreement which I had submitted to them was about as far as we could
go right now. Now, if they would accept that and say, "All right
this is as far as you're going to go right now. We'll let this
stand for a while and let's see what develops. Then as things im-
prove then we'll come back at you again, and we'll reconsider this."
So they were willing to do that. But in my agreement I kind of tied
them down to at least a $100,000 investment in the reservation for
the next four years. They were trying to squirm off that one, but
finally Sy Fryer said, "Well, Rex, we know that there's just no way
for you to get those people up to a point where they can manage these
grazing fees by themselves, not in the short time that we're talking
about. So we'll go along with this program." So I thought that was
great. Then the next thing was the cattle manager and the land op-
erations officer problem, where they were wanting Jim Hale to run the
show and I was wanting Fred Monsteoca. They agreed that the cattle
manager to Fred Monsteoca. So I was pleased with that. It's going
to be my job, it has always been a superintendent's job, to coordinate
the programs on the reservations. What they're saying is nothing new.
This is the way it's always worked anyway, so I'm satisfied that we got
a good shake on this deal.
Gordon McGregor was interested in what we were doing about helping
the young Indian children on the reservation. I told him about our
community action program, and what we were working on, and what we
were trying to get set up. He thought that was good. He thought
that when a program like that came in, he asked me if I would call
him and he would personally take an interest in that and see what he
could do to help us get it funded through OEO. I told him, well,
that would be great, that I'd certainly appreciate that, because
we're going to need all the help we can get. Dr. Becktoll over in
the office of Economic Opportunity has already told the Indians that
they weren't going to get any money this year, and there was no use
of them sending in any revised programs because that wasn't going to

make any difference. Gordon said, "Well, I'd heard about Mr. Becktoll
before," and he said, "I guess I'll hear about him again." But he
says, "I wouldn't let that deter me any." He said, "I'd go right a-
head with my plan and get it in." I said, "Well, we, we fully intend
to. We're doing everything we can to get our stuff together so we
can present a feasible program put together then I think the question
of the program merits will be out of the way, and we'll be talking
then about money and who should have it. Now that is a political
matter and the Seminoles have some political strength, so I'm not too
worried. If we can just get the program concept agreeable, then I
think the other, the money end of it, we'll be able to work something
out on that. We also heard today that Jim Hale was being transferred
to Nez Perce,Idaho, and that a job offer was being made to Sam Burns.
I don't know whether he's going to accept it or not, but he might.
He'd like to get out of here, too, I think.
August 10, Tuesday. I spent the day in the office working on the
community action program. We've been editing the various programs
and examining the statistics and looking the justifications over to
see how we can strengthen them and see if we've got everything in
there that we ought to have. So I think that it's beginning to shape
up pretty good. I think that we've got a real good, strong program.
August 11, Wednesday. I called Bill Lay in Washington. Bill is
the man who is coordinating OEO programming between the Bureau and
the Office of Economic Opportunity. He said we ought to come in about
the 23rd of this month, August. He thought that the tribe ought to
bring sufficient forces along so that they could present the program
in its entirety. He didn't want the OEO to get the idea that this was
a Bureau program. He wanted the OEO to work directly with the tribe,
he said, "and you're going to have the job of coordinating their actions
and educating them as to the whole program as quickly as possible, be-
cause if you're going to get any money this year, you're going to have
to get in here and you're going to have to present that to the people
over in OEO and you're going to have to do a good job of it."
I called Fred Monsteoca and asked him to come down, and he brought
Jack Lewis along with him. They stayed at a motel here in town and
got in touch with me after they got in. We got together in the evening
and we sat down and talked about the cattle manager's responsibilities
and what ought to go in the job sheet and so on. Fred Monsteoca was
really flabbergasted that we were able to get the job established
and he was also flabbergasted at the grade that we established. We es-
tablished it at a Grade 11. When he left the Bureau to go to the state
he was a Grade 7. He was with the state a number of years in their

Agricultural Extension program and was still with them. Now he's
coming back at a Grade 11, which is a very healthy raise for him,
and he was quite pleased with that. But Fred's a good man. He's
not what you call a book man; he doesn't go too much on theory or
on ideas of that kind. He functions on a basis of experience, and
he's the kind of a guy that knows the cattle business from the time
they drop the calf 'til the time they sell him. He's a good cattle
man, but he doesn't have much experience in putting these things
together on paper and, you know, negotiating and so on. I got most
of my information about cattle raising from him, but he wasn't able
to, as a matter of practice, he was not able to put these things
down on paper and make it influential and justify his positions.
He could explain it to you, but he couldn't put it down in.such a
way as to get it approved.
August 12. Got a wire today announcing Jim Hale's transfer to
Nez Perce. Bill and Laura May came over and were very happy and
excited about it. They apparently knew about it before I did.
Bill and Fred and I are scheduled to go to Gainesville to meet with
the Agricultural Extension people about some programs. We're trying
to get them interested in a bull-breeding program and hoping that
they will provide us with the technical assistance we need to develop
such a herd on the Big Cypress reservation. We already have one
going on the Brighton reservation, and it's not doing as well as it
should. We're going to have to eliminate the cattle association's
project and get into that on a wholehearted basis--put some money in
it and do the job right. But first we got to find out whether the
Gainesville people would be willing to work with this project with us.
Paul Nelson is busy trying to get the community action program put
together so that it can be presented. Billy and Laura May are going
over that carefully, point by point. Evanella Thomason is giving
as much time as she possibly can to them and trying to orient them
-with this thing. I hope by the time we get to Washington everybody
will be conversant with it, because this is the one, single big thing
that we've got right now. A loan can provide us with twenty-five,
thirty jobs for Indians and that's quite an important economic pos-
sibility for the three reservations.
August 13, Gainesville. We met with Dave Jones, an agronomist,
Mr. Henderson, who's chief of the department, and Jim Pace, an animal
husbandryman for the Extension service, and with Jim Crockett, who's
head of the Animal Research unit. We toured the pastures and looked
at their stock, then we met with Mr. Watkins, who's the director of
the state agricultural service. We told them what kind of problem we
had with our cattle and our grazing fees and the conditions on the

reservation and what we're trying to get accomplished. We told them
that we need a lot of help within these programs and that we're going
to be able to have, hopefully that Fred Monsteoca was going to get
the job of cattle manager and we'd put him on our payroll. Since he
was a member of their staff in good standing, we were hoping that they
would come along and help work with us and help us work some of these
problems out. Well, Jim Pace and Dave Jones thought that the idea of
getting a cattle manager was to be commended. They thought that was
good, and they were glad that Fred was available and was willing to
take it because they couldn't think of anybody else who could do as
well as he could do with that kind of a job. Neither could I, as a
matter of fact. They said that they would be very interested in help-
ing develop a bull herd if we were able to get something put together.
As a matter of fact they were going to come down to the reservation
and they would talk with us some more about that. They would give me
some of their ideas of what we could do to get started with those kind
of programs.
August 14, Saturday. Had a pow-wow at Brighton and a lot of people
were there. Fred Osceola acted as master of ceremony and he did a good
job. It was very pleasant. We circulated around and talked with all
the people and enjoyed meeting with them and talking to them. Spent
the day just visiting on the reservation.
August 16. Pat Patterson, chief of the branch of Personnel called
me and told me that Philleoand John Crow had been talking with Virgil
Harrington. Apparently Virgil wants Jim Hale as superintendent for
the Choctaw agency. Anyway, the transfer to northern Idaho has been
cancelled. Hale is interested in going to Choctaw and he seemed to
be quite pleased with that prospect and he seemed to know all about it.
It wasn't anything new. When I was telling him about it he knew about
it. He'd apparently been talking with Virgil on the phone and they'd
gotten the thing pretty well worked out. Anyway, he was glad that it
was working out that way.
August 17. Jack Micco, Frank Billie, Willy Frank, Dan Osceola,
Mary Bowers, Joe Osceola, Cecil Johns, Agnes Johns, Dorothy Osceola,
Laura May, Bill, were all present at our community action program
review that Paul and I scheduled. We reviewed the entire program in
detail. Bill Boehmer was there but didn't have very much to say. He
was chagrined because Evanella Thompson had been called in to do the
job. We'd given him a lot of opportunity to work on it, but he just
never had time for it, said he was too busy with other things, and by
the time he got his summer vacation in and a few other things, we would
have been in the middle of the wintertime before we got started. So
Paul and Evanella Thompson put this one together. I want to give them

full credit because they did a real good job on this. They put to-
gether a solid community action program. The Indians were very pleased
with it. They asked a lot of questions and they talked about it to a
great extent. So I think that everything is going along pretty good.
If we could get our OEO programs together, we can get our two craft shops
going, and we can get the cattle program on its feet, well, that will
make a great difference in the whole economic atmosphere of the three
August 18. Ray Tanner was here from the central office. He listened
to our tale of woe about needing money to finance our arts and crafts
projects and the community action program and so on. He said that he'd
had some experience with small businessmen loans and that he'd be will-
ing to help us present our case to them. He thought that what we had
in mind fitted those programs very well, and he thought that we could
probably get some results, favorable results. He also was interested
in the development of the industrial park concept for the reservation.
He wanted to work out some restrictive covenants which would be included
in the lease form and work out some detailed arrangements for water,
sewage, and other features that were necessary in connection with the
development of an industrial park. I told him that we would be happy
to have him study these propositions over and give us the benefit of
his opinions on them. He told me that George Smith would be coming
in to Miami. He would hope to get George up here and the two of them
would go over this thing and spend a few days studying it and looking
at the industrial parks in the area. When they got through they would
be in to see me and maybe we could reach some agreement as to how we
should proceed with this program.
August 20. We completed our community action program, and we sent
eight copies of the program in to Washington. We sent several of them
over to OEO, and now we've got our program on the line.
August 23. I went to Big Cypress to talk with Frank Billie and
Willy Frank about the community action programs and some of the other
activities that we're interested in. While we were out there, I told
him I'd like to see some of the old, traditional Indian camps. So
they took me to Buffalo Jim's camp, and to the Riley Cypress camp,
and Ingram Billie's camp,and to Barton Jones' place, and to Henry
Osceola, Frank Jay Billie,and Josie Billie, Henry Johns, John Cypress,
and several others. We went to all of these places. It was interest-
ing to go to these camps and look at them from one place to another.
Then, in the afternoon Jack Lewis took us down to show where the road
was being built on the reservation going out towards Alligator Alley.
Then we spent most of the day just looking the thing over, talking
about these various programs, and getting the Indians up to date on
where we were and what we were planning on doing.

August 24. We went to Brighton and we picked up Jack Micco and we
did the same thing we did down at Big Cypress, only we visited all of
these old people. We visited Bob Snow, and Walter Tommie, Toby Johns,
Frank Huff, Andrew Bowers, Dick Bowers, Joe Billie, Martha and Millie
Buster, Mussie Jones, Billy Osceola, Billy Bowlegs, Hendley Josh, Sy
Bowers, Jack Smith, Henry Gopher, et cetera. We had a good time just
visiting all day long. Visiting with Indians, talking to them and
shaking hands and going to their camp, and we wound up at Frank Shore's.
We had a long talk with Frank. So it was an interesting day. We'd
just get out to meet and talk with these people and sit down and visit
with them.
August 25. Left the agency and drove to Washington, D.C. Took my
time. Drove all day Wednesday and Thursday and arrived in Washington
on Friday. I just drove along, looked at the scenery, took my time
and didn't try to make any big distances in any one day. It was very
pleasant, just relaxing to drive with nothing on your mind.
August 30. The tribal leaders and I met with Philleo the first
thing in the morning. We had a long discussion with him, sat around
and talked with him. We had another meeting scheduled for ten o'clock
with Sy Fryer and the resource people, so we got into that meeting a
little bit late, but Sy was ready for us. Bob Jones was there, and
Lonny Scheret, Will Pitner, and everybody was up to date on my report
and the proposals that had been made and agreed to. We didn't have
too many disappointing things to talk about. They finally told us that
they couldn't give us $100,000, but they said, "We're going to give you
$88,000 this year and maybe next year we'll give you $100,000 if you're
doing like you said you were going to do." I really didn't expect to
get the full $100,000. I thought I'd get somewhere around $50,000.
But $88,000--that's only $12,000 off out original estimates, so I
think we've come out smelling like a rose. The meeting lasted until
noon. After lunch we didn't have any meetings scheduled, so I took
my time, went around the Bureau, and talked to a lot of my old friends
and former associates. So I got caught up on my visiting and what was
going on and so on. Had a very interesting time. Matter of fact I
got some pointers from some of the fellows about some of the people
and some of the kinds of problems that they were having. It was help-
ful to get this kind of stuff because we had a lot of things that we
wanted to get settled and we didn't want to get short-changed along
the line.
The Deputy Commissioner had assigned a room for us and gave us
access to secretarial assistance so that we could work. We had a
conference table and it was very comfortable and we had all of the
services that we needed. An agenda had been worked out for us for
several days. We were going to have quite a lot of work with some

of the resources people and credit, and some of the other groups. So
we thought that it would be important for us to try and get our OEO
stuff taken care of the next day if we could. If it were possible to
do that, that's what we wanted to do. So we talked with Bill Lay and
Bill got us an appointment with Herb Becktoll and Warren Cardwell
over at OEO.
They had gone over our program and they said it was a good program,
it was well written and well presented. But they have a limitation
which they have to impose on these programs of $100 per person, so
our $260,000 program was cut down to $116,000. They said that they
did it by eliminating some of the professional people and sub-professional
people that were in the staff. They would modify the program accord-
ingly so we would have to revise the program so that we could keep the
programs we thought was most important and let the rest of them go.
Then we met with the Neighborhood Youth Corps regarding the sixteen
to twenty-one year olds on the reservation. They said they would be
willing to fund us for a limited amount for each eligible person for
six months. They told us that the whole concept of the youth program
was not so much to provide jobs for a youth, but to help them over-
come some of the social handicaps that they had. Give them jobs that
would be meaningful to the community and keep them out of mischief.
Becktoll ended our discussion by saying that even though these items
had been cut down, there was no assurances that they would be funded.
As a matter of fact, the way he saw it now it would be unlikely that
we would be funded before the first of the next fiscal year, so that
we would probably have a nine-month wait before we got any money.
After our meeting with Becktoll, we went back to the Bureau and
I had a meeting with Al Huber about Sam Burns. Huber was telling
me that they were trying to get him moved. They said that if they
could get him transferred some place they'd like to move Birdie Clark
up to fill his job. I said, "Well, I have no objection to that."
They told me that they would be working on Sam's transfer as much as
they could and get it done as fast as they could. But at the moment
they didn't have anything to offer me.
September 1. I met with Ernie Page and John Carmody, Jr. Ernie
agreed to the additional cost of construction that we had asked for
on remodeling the buildings and some of the office furniture that we
wanted. While I was in Mr. Page's office the tribe had been trying
to get a hold of the congressional leaders to talk to them about get-
ting some support for their OEO program. Paul Rogers' office called
and asked me to come over. So I left Ernie Page's office and went over
to Mr. Rogers' office, and we talked about the community action program,

the need for it and so on. I told him that OEO had said that they were
just not going to be able to do much about giving us any assistance.
He said that the tribal leaders had talked with George Smathers, the
senator, and with Senator Holland, and with some of the other congress-
men, and that it had been decided that since these people were largely
in his district that he would act as a liason officer between the
Senate and the Office of Economic Opportunity. I thanked him for his
interest in the Seminoles and the things that he was trying to do. So
then I left. I got back over to the office and when we got over there,
why, I was called to Ted Taylor's office. Ted was talking to me about
the OEO program. He said that OEO liked our program, and the criteria
we'd established and the way we were working on it. But they just
didn't have any money at this point. So could I do something about
corralling those Seminoles and keeping them off the Hill? He didn't
want the senators and the congressmen getting on the backs of OEO and
so on. I said, well, I'd talk with them; I'd tell them what your
position was. Paul Rogers was talking about writing a letter to OEO
and telling them that the congressional delegates from Florida were
much impressed with our CAP Program and they recommended strongly
that OEO give this program some immediate consideration. The tribal
leaders were telling me this. They said Senator Smathers was there
and he says, "No," he says, "Paul we don't want to do that," he said.
He says, "I'll call Sarge Shriver and talk to him and tell him what
we've got here and tell him that we want some action." So Smathers
called Sargent Shriver on the phone and told him that the Florida
delegation was interested in the Seminole situation and that they'd
been turned off by his staff. He wanted to know if Sargent Shriver
couldn't do something about that. So apparently he could because I
was in the office talking to John O. Crow and Philleowhen the phone
rang. Philleo looked at me and he says, "Well," he says, "I guess,"
he says, "your Seminoles have kinda blew the lid off." And I said,
"What did they do now?" And he said, "that was Sargent Shriver. He
wants to know where you are. He said you're supposed to be over there
at a meeting. They're trying to give you some money for your OEO
program." So they gave me the room number and I got in a cab and
went over there! And sure enough, they had decided that Mr. Becktoll
was a little mistaken in his view that we weren't going to get any
money until next year; that they were really going to give us some
money, but they were going to give us enough to get started with. So
they took our estimate, and instead of giving us the full amount we
asked for they said, "Well, three months have passed and probably
three months, four months will be gone by the time you get in operation,

so we'll give you 75 per cent of what you asked for." So we got a
pretty good chunk of money agreed to at that meeting. They said
that they would immediately submit, send authorization for $100,000
at once and send us an authority.
... remark that I noticed several things when I came to Washing-
ton from Florida. One, that the Bureau of Indian Affairs was quite
interested in getting tribes assistance form the Office of Economic
Opportunity, and the Office of Economic Opportunity was quite in-
terested in working directly with the Indian tribes. The Office of
Economic Opportunity did not want the Bureau involved in these ne-
gotiations. They were apparently afraid the Bureau's long-term re-
lationship with the tribe would be a heavy overburden and might tend
to influence these programs in a direction that the Bureau was in-
terested in, rather thatn in the direction that OEO was interested in.
The Bureau, on the other hand, felt that the OEO people, because of
their unwillingness to work with the Bureau, were overlooking a huge
reservoir of experience and information. I think, from an outsider's
point of view, that both positions were correct. They were both right
in their appraisal of the other. The end result was that there was
a huge schism that had developed between these two groups, particular-
ly at the operating level. Now at the administrative level, at the
top levels, the director of OEO was quite free in his discussions with
PhilleoNash or with the secretary of the Interior or with other people.
But at the point where operations begin and where the programs have to
be activated, at this point in both operations there was a big schism,
a big division, and it was difficult for Indian tribes to understand
this. The Seminole leaders' action of going over on the Hill and talk-
ing to their congressmen and senators and explaining to them what their
interests and desires were and what OEO had told them and so on, was
something that they had concocted themselves. They had asked me if I
thought it was objectionable. I told them, no, it was their right as
constituents of the Florida congressional delegates. They had a right
to go see them about anything that troubled them, whether it involved
the Bureau, involved OEO, or who it involved. I saw no reason why
they should withhold explaining their position to these people, and
apparently they did a good job because they were well briefed on the
community action program in all details. They knew what they were
talking about, they knew what these costs were, and they knew what
these problems were. Apparently Bill and Billy and Laura May really
did a good job with those people over there, because I knew when I
saw them again that they were pleased with themselves. And I guess they
had a right to be. I will say that Mr. Bill Lay over in the Bureau

was also pleased with what happened, but Mr. Becktoll over on the OEO
side was very unhappy with us. He apparently was going to be looking
for ways and means of slowing down the impetus that the Seminoles had
achieved in their first visit because he thought maybe they would try
to run away with his program. But they had no such intentions. They
just wanted to get started, and they found the key. They knew ins-
tinctively the right things to do, and they did it.
September 2. The tribal leaders and I had a series of meetings
with several of the officials of the Bureau. For instance, we met
with Perry Skera of the Forestry branch. We had a Forestry position
open, and we wanted to get it filled. We wanted some information as
to the best use to make of the forestry products that we have. We've
got a lot of cypress down there, we've got some other trees on the
reservation. Some of them are merchantable, and we've got some plan-
tations that have been started. We felt that these things were im-
portant to the tribe and we'd like to have some help along these lines.
It was agreed that Art Wald and/or Perry Skera, one of them, would come
down in the middle of October sometime and see if they couldn't go
over this thing for us and give us some views as to what our best
direction should be. We then had a meeting with the educational people.
Rick Hill chaired the meeting, and we talked about a number of projects.
We talked aout the new school, and we talked about the community action
program which OEO had agreed to fund. We talked in terms of the impor-
tance of getting the pre-school program started. We asked them if
they had any ideas of how we could do this and any help that they could
give us along this line. They said that their budget, insofar as staff
was concerned, was at a limit. They just couldn't give us any more
staff, but they could give us some additional money. If we were able
to get staff from some of the other branches, they could fund it.
But they couldn't give us the actual positions, because they were ex-
ceeding their present allocation of positions now. We discussed in
some detail the importance of having the right kind of direction over
the whole community action situation, because it was going to involve
the education. We've got these pre-schoolers and we got the kinder-
garten children, and we would be the first experience they had in
education before they actually got into formal education. I thought
that the education people would be quite interested in helping us tune
this altogether and getting it set up, and they were. They suggested
that we put all of our needs down in black and white in a letter and
send it to them, and that they would act on it as best as they could.
But they did agree that they would be able to give us a little money
in case I was able to get one of the other branches to set up the

director for the community action program. We also talked to Dick
Frenstrom regarding a grant and loan to the tribe. We wanted some
money to develop the village, the industrial park, the campgrounds,
the golf course and motel, and the arts and crafts shops, and so on.
We would like to get one financial package to cover the whole thing.
We were exploring this possibility. Dick told us that we would have
to negotiate with the city of Hollywood for a hookup for sewage and
water before they could consider anything. Without that, their CFA
funds would not be available. This was a major holdback in advanc-
ing money for the kinds of things that I was talking about, because
without water and sewage this would involve the expensive packaging
of these utilities and the perpetual maintenance of them by private
parties rather than just being hooked up to a public utility. So,
I told Dick that we would get back to him then with a proposal. I
stopped into Bill Lay's office and he had prepared a letter to OEO
from the BIA. This was to thank them for their consideration of the
Seminole situation and was also to express the desire that the Bureau
was more than happy to cooperate in any way that was possible.
We went to see Ernie Page and we told him about the problem with
water and sewage: that some of the non-Bureau loan funds that were
being offered for community development just were not going to be
available unless the Bureau or the tribe could install water and
sewage, and that I would like to have some help on this because this
was an engineering kind of a thing, and that the city of Hollywood
had the closest facilities for us to tie into. I'd be glad to ne-
gotiate with the city of Hollywood, but I would have to have some
assurance that we would be able to meet whatever terms they might
impose. In other words, they may say, "Well, sure, you can hook up
to our water and sewage, but who's going to pay for it? We haven't
got the money. Can you pay?" So, this is what we need some assistance
on, and we need it right away. Mr. Page agreed that that's probably
true, and he felt that since this was a utility, the Bureau could help
with it. But he thought that the tribe was also going to have to put
up some money, and he suggested that I get in contact with the agency
and have somebody go down and sound out the city to see whether they'd
be interested in this kind of a thing. I called Dr. Wiley and asked
him if he'd go. I told what the situation was with respect to water
and sewage, and asked him if he'd go down and talk to the city manager
in Hollywood, General Watson, to see whether or not these people would
be willing to allow the tribe to hook up to its sewer facilities, and
if they would, under what conditions. He agreed that he would do that
and he would call me later in the week so I could relay the information
to Mr. Page.

Ernie Page and the staff have been working on the motel and golf
course concept, and they've come up with some schematic drawings on
it and some general estimates and so on which are very good. The
tribe and I had a chance to go over that with him. Mr. Page is cer-
tainly moving ahead on this golf course and motel concept. They're
arranging for a meeting with the Department of Commerce, I believe,
at Atlanta, Georgia, where the regional office is in which loans for
this type of facility will be considered. He wants us to go down
there with him on the way home and stop in and see whether or not
they would be willing to advance us money for this purpose.
September 3. Ray Tanner had arranged for a meeting with the SBA,
so we went along with him over there. We met with Mr. Bush and Mr.
Brashier. They thought we ought to make an application for a regular
SBA loan first. Their poverty program should be the last resort, they
said. They suggested I talk with Bill Morrall at Miami, start there,
and then go to Atlanta. They thought that this business of going to
Atlanta and bypassing Mr. Morrall was not a good thing. They felt
that we had a good business deal and that we would have much better
luck by going directly to the SBA loan program, and that there really
wasn't anything more that they could talk to us about at this level.
Two of my former employees, Bob Pennington and Les Gaye of Tribal
Operations, asked to talk with me. So I went and I had a little con-
ference with them. They were telling me that my successor, Erma Walts --
she was our enrollment officer out at Albuquerque -- has really been
making things difficult for them. She seems to be afraid that some-
body's trying to unseat her or that she's not in full command of the
branch, and she's been quite drastic in some of her tirades against
the employees, particularly those who go in to see higher officials.
She thinks that she should be the main contact between the higher
officials in the Bureau and the branch. Well, when I was chief of
the branch, there were so many contacts necessary and so many things
that had to be attended to that no one person could hope to do all of
this. So I told those two fellows... They're good men; they're both
capable. Bob Pennington has his doctorate in history, and Les Gaye has
a Masters in political science. He was at one time an agent for the
CIA, so they both know their way around. So I told them, I said, "Well,
you know what I'd do if I were in your boots?" I said, "I'd just let
her have her fill. I'd just make every effort possible that whenever
a conference is set up that she be there; whenever a job is to be done,
that she be there; and that whenever anything that comes up in the
secretary's office, that she go instead of you." I said,"Make sure
that you push her into it first." And I said, "No matter how

gargantuan her appetite for this kind of thing is, she'll get her fill
in short order, and she'll be looking for some help and some relief.
Maybe things will then get down to a more normal behavior pattern."
The tribal delegations and I went in to see Al Huber. We had pe-
titioned him for some credit money to start the muck enterprise and
the two small craft shops and to do some additional work over in the
arts and craft village. Mr. Huber was fairly noncommittal to us,
but he had a little twinkle in his eye so I knew that it wasn't all
bad. The tribe thanked him very profusely and told him how much
they appreciated his interest in their affairs up 'til this time, and
that they were just sure he was going to do everything he could for
them, and theyxere happy with the way things were going. After the
tribal group left I stayed on for a few minutes to chat with Al Huber
and with Eduardo Ramiriz, one of his assistants. I told them, I said,
"Well, the real big job, the most important thing that we can do right
now, is to get these people to working." I said, "There are just not
any jobs for them." I said, "If these two craft shops go into effect,
we could probably have ten or fifteen women sewing and we could have
twenty-five or thirty women in the chickees making these strips, sew-
ing these little patterns. We could have fifteen, twenty people work-
ing at Big Cypress. It would mean in the neighborhood of fifty-sixty
people with some sort of income, fairly regular income." And I said,
"With OEO going into effect and all of the programs for all three re-
servations, I look for another twenty-five or so Indian employees to
be taken care of under this program." "So with these things," I said,
"we're going to make a very appreciable difference in the economic
situation of the three reservations." I also told Al, I said, "Now
Al, this is going to be a big help for us to get our cattle program
straightened out, too, because you know, everybody is in this cattle
program. And this is the only hope that some of them have for any
income at all. Now, with jobs and things, the ownership of a few
head of cattle isn't going to be so important to them. They might
be willing, more readily willing to sell. This would give us an
opportunity to consolidate these individuals' cattle herds. In other
words, people who are not interested in cattle, who shouldn't be in
cattle, then we would encourage them to sell to the people who are.
We could therefore shift ownership of cattle from the people who shouldn't
be in cattle to the people who should be in cattle. This would make
the total management problem that much simpler, and would put us in a
lot better position than we have been heretofore." He asked me how
we were going to do that since this was going to require quite a lot
of purchasing on the part of people who have cattle. And I told him,
well, we'd been working with FHA and Fred Monsteoca and Clemmy Williams

have been working together on this project, and that Mr. Burns, and
Birdie Clark had also been involved in it. It now appears that the
FHA, Federal Farm Home Administration, will be willing to refinance
some of our cattle operators. I told him we would be willing to
give them our best clients if they would completely refinance them.
In other words, they would pay off their existing credit obligations
and they would go ahead and loan them whatever money is needed to
buy additional cattle and equipment and whatever is needed and set
them up on a much better basis. They're willing to do that, and they've
got the money to get this done now, and they're willing to work with
us. We haven't taken any official action on this, but Eduardo here
ought to come down to the reservation and go into this whole pro-
position so that you know what we're doing. Maybe you'll have some
ideas about this. Now if we can get this accomplished, the resolu-
tion of our cattle problems is going to be much simpler and the people
that we're going to be dealing with are going to be much easier to
talk to. Al asked us what we were planning to do with the money
that would be repaid to the tribe from the Farmers' Home Administra-
tion. I told him that the tribe was interested in a number of other
projects: the golf course and the motel, establishing water and
sewage on the reservation, and all of these other things. They were
going to need some money for operating expenses, and of course, that
money cannot be used by the tribe except with the consent and approval
of the Bureau. I told Al, I said, "Well, now, Al, you don't need to
be concerned about that, because we don't intend to breach your regu-
lations on the use of these funds. But we do have some need for
these." He said, "Well, if you have any large number of repayments of
cattle, that's going to put a lot of money into your account. If
that happens then we're going to have to dry up any further loans to
the tribe, because you're going to have to use your own funds then
to take care of those." I said, "Well, that's fine." He said, "Now
Rex, since you are experienced in this field, have had many years of
experience withthis sort of thing, and you're a former chief clerk,
you know what the ropes are." He says, "I'm thinking of delegating
authority to Seminole in which we would give you authority to approve
loans, say up to $25,000, without having to come into the Washington
office." And I said, "Well, that would really expedite our programs
down there. It would put us in a position where we could operate,
I could go to work immediately as soon as I knew that funds would be
forthcoming from these FHA loans." And he said, "Well, we've already
talked this over, and we're recommending it to Sy Fryer. I think Sy's
going to go along with it, so one of these days you're going to get
authority to approve all of these loans yourself. You'll be one of

the few superintendents who has it. But the reason they'd be willing
to experiment with you is because of your long years of experience
and because you're directly under our thumb. We can go down and talk
to you whenever things get a little bit out of line." And I told him,
"Well, we'll certainly try and keep things in line. We wouldn't abuse
any authority that was given to us."
We had so many meetings in Washington and we covered so much ter-
ritory that I made notes on practically everything. On my way home
through Florida we took our time. Left on the 4th and we didn't get
back 'til the 6th. So we had a chance to think about what had been
accomplished, and it was a very fruitful visit so far as the tribe
was concerned.
Tuesday, September 8. Betsy left early in the morning and left
the agency in a big mess. There was debris all over, and Brighton
and Big Cypress were having problems. I told the tribe we ought to
maybe buy some groceries and take them out there and set up a kitchen
out there for a day or so until people get things sorted out and get
back to normal again. So Bill agreed and they authorized some money
to be spent for these people so they could be fed at least. There
was a good many people at the school, both at Big Cypress and Brighton.
The women set up a kitchen and they kinda had a two-day picnic there.
They cooked all kinds of things and everybody was sitting around,
talking and visiting, and having a picnic. There wasn't really that
much damage, but I thought that doing something like this was the
right thing to do because the tribe had been patient with us in all
of these program meetings and so on, and had given us support. This
was just a little token of appreciation on the part of the tribal
officials to their constituents.
September 9. Ernie Page called. He asked about Betsy, and I
told him that our big problem with Betsy was just clean-up, that she
hadn't done all that much damage. But there were a lot of chickees
that the roof has blown off of and so on, and there was quite a
little repair work among the homes that needed to be done, too. He
said, "Well, we've got some money that we can use if you want to hire
some people to do that." And I said, "Well, fine." Then he said,
"Well, I can give you whatever you need." He says, "You go ahead
and hire some crews and have Earl head up a clean-up program and
see what you can do to get things lined up." I said, "Okay." So
Earl hired some Seminoles and we cleaned up Dania, and then we had
trucks and so on. We took that opportunity to get rid of some of the
old cars and some of the other debris that was laying around. We spent
four or five days on each reservation, cleaning up. We had quite a few

people working. So this provided people with another little payday,
which was helpful.
September is a really bad month for the Seminoles because there's
no work at all. Cattle have been sold, nobody's in the fields,
there's just no work. There's nothing for them to do, and so any
time that you can provide employment opportunities during this period,
it's very helpful to the Seminole people. So, Betsy turned out to be
a blessing in disguise for the Seminoles, because we had probably al-
together when we counted them all, we probably had about sixty men
working about a week. So Ernie Page is going to get a bill a little
bigger than he thought he was going to get.
September 10. I've been in correspondence with Dr. Watkins of
the state Agricultural Extension Service, and we have a contract with
them which we provide a certain amount of money each year for his
services. For some reason or other the contract had been delayed
this year. I called Washington and we got an okay on it, and the
reason they were delaying it was because of Fred Monsteoca's reassign-
ment. But I told them that the state people were putting another man
in his place, and that we would continue to get services from that
source. Therefore there was no reason why the contract should now be
terminated or adjusted. They finally agreed that that was all right,
and that they'd go ahead on the basis of the existing contract with-
out trying to amend it. I called Dr. Watkins and told him that. He
seemed to be happy about it. Also told him that I'd appreciate it
if Fred could be reassigned to me for a while, 'cause I wanted to
work out a job sheet and get all of the other details necessary to
transfer him from his staff to my staff. Dr. Watkins said that would
be fine, go right ahead.
September 13. Bill and I and Billy went to Big Cypress for a
meeting with those people. We briefed them on our trip to Washington
and all of the things that was happening. It was a long meeting, and
we spent most of the time, I would talk briefly and then it would be
interpreted. This went on until we convered pretty much everything
that we had accomplished up 'til that time. Everybody seemed to be
quite happy and pleased with what went on. Later that day we went
back to the reservation and at 7 that evening we had a meeting at
Dania with the people. Practically the whole reservaton turned out,
and we talked about all of the things that had transpired in Washing-
ton. It was a reiteration of what we had said at Big Cypress. Then
on September 14 we had another meeting at Brighton. It was along the
same lines as the meetings at Big Cypress and at Dania.

September 15. Since I now have to make three speeches on every
subject, I've decided that I'm going to prepare a series of charts on
the various things and explain them, and then I can use these same
charts every place. I know then I will cover exactly the same territory
at each meeting. So today I spent a good deal of time working up charts
on the OEO program, on the cattle program, on the land improvement pro-
gram, and on the craft shops, both the one at Brighton and the one at
Big Cypress. I was getting everything lined up so that now when I go
to a meeting I'll have my material at least prepared in advance. I was
advised today that Philleo Nash is on his way down here and that he was
going to be in Miami. He wants to meet with me when he gets down there.
And I told him, well, I would certainly be available whenever he called.
The people at Big Cypress asked us to come up on the 16th to meet
with them because they wanted a preview of what was going to happen at
our meeting Friday at Moore Haven. The meeting at Moore Haven is sup-
posed to be a meeting of all the reservation groups, and it's supposed
to be a big, single meeting in which we're going to try to get all of
these things straightened out. So the meeting at Big Cypress was sort
of a preview of our meeting at Moore Haven. We had been told during the
day that John Crow didn't know whether Philleo Nash would be able to
dedicate the school, but he'd give us much leave time as he could about
that. Philleo apparently was down in Miami on other business, not parti-
cularly Bureau business, and so it was a question of whether or not he's
going to be able to work us in.
On the 17th, this is the day we were scheduled to meet at Moore
Haven with the cattle men and the tribal members from all three reserva-
tions. The meeting started at about 7:30. We figure there was between
140 and 150 people there. Fred Monsteoca told me that was the biggest
single meeting he had ever seen in which both Miccosukees and Muskogees
were there. So we discussed in detail the management plan, the cattle
raisers' agreement and the stockmen's agreement, the need for cooperation
and coordination, the need for the cattle men now to do everything that
their cattle program required in the way of work, that the Bureau was
most anxious for the tribe to get on a paying basis with their cattle,
and that they're going to help for a while, but that the people have to
eventually carry all of these expenses themselves. It was a fairly long
meeting. I talked for the better part of an hour and a half, I guess.
Then after I got through talking, Bill Osceola talked for quite a while.
When he got through then Billy took the floor and he talked a while.
Then the tribal leaders, one by one, got up and talked. All through

these discussions the people sat very quietly and they listened. Many
times they had their heads down, and they were appreciative of the
fact that they were being told all of this. They were appreciative
of the fact that they had been given an opportunity to voice their
opinion pro or con. In the final analysis they got up and they told
the group, they got up one by one, people in the audience got up,
and thanked the board members and tribal leaders and also agency of-
ficials for all the work that is being done, and expressed their
great appreciation for everything, and hoped that everything would
work out fine. Well, this in itself was quite unusual.
September 20, Monday. I was called to Miami to testify in Mike
Osceola's case. Mike asked me to testify as a character witness on
his behalf. He'd had some problems on his property. He had to get
a little rough with somebody. He had threatened somebody apparently.
So they were trying to charge him with a felony. Anyway he asked
me to come down and testify for him. I agreed to do that. So I
got down there, but the trial had been postponed and they told me
they would let me know when it would be necessary for me to appear.
Later in the afternoon we drove from Miami to Clewiston and attended
an inter-agency committee meeting at Clewiston. Dr. Hill presided;
he's with the Public Health Service. Bill Boehmer and Billy Osceola
and I attended the conference. Billy was explaining that the tribe
had a number of problems which they thought the Public Health Service
might help with. They had a garbage problem on the two reservations.
The garbage had to be disposed of, and there was no way for them to
do that and there was no pick-up of any kind. He wondered if some
sort of a garbage service couldn't be established for the reservation.
Of course, when you stop to think about it, this is quite a serious
problem when you got a lot of people living together in a small com-
munity and there's no way to dispose of any of your waste. This
gets to be quite a problem. Then we explained to Dr. Hill, Billy
told Dr. Hill about our community action program and what we were
hoping would be accomplished and so on. Dr. Hill turned to Bill Boehmer, he said,
"Now Bill," he says, "how do you propose to direct
this program?" I guess Bill had been doing his homework with Dr. Hill.
Anyway, I didn't say anything. I didn't want to embarrass anybody,
but Bill Boehmer was the last man I'd put in charge of that program.
But I didn't want him to know that, nor I didn't want the doctor to
know that. Because Bill in his own way was a very good employee. He
was very good in the field of education. He was very good with child-
ren, and he liked that kind of work. He did it very well. But you
get him into a broader field of administration and he kind of floundered
a little bit. I didn't want somebody like that overriding the whole
OEO program, community actions. Dr. Hill then told us about the medical

services that were being provided for on the two reservations, the
regular nursing services and so on. He also told us that he'd been
working, trying to get some dental assistance, and so far hasn't
been able to get it. But he had hopes that one of their dentists
would be able to get down there and spend a few days on all the re-
servations and help get things straightened out there as far as
teeth were concerned. He also said that he wanted to train a couple
of Seminole girls in the hospitals so that they could work with the
health programs on the reservations. In other words, he would like
to have a couple of Seminole girls trained in first aid and so on
and in public health work, and they would then have access to the
clinic and could take care of minor problems that occurred. Or if
something serious developed then they would know where to get in touch
with people who could provide medical assistance right away. This
was an excellent idea and I encouraged him to continue this and do
whatever he could to implement the appointment of these two girls.
September 21, Tuesday. We left at 6 AM to go to Big Cypress.
I met with the tribal leaders there: Frank Billie, and Will Frank,
Billy Osceola, and some of the bigger cattle men like Junior Buster
and Old John Cypress and Morgan Smith and Betty May Billie and some
of those people that were interested in the program. It wasn't a
formal meeting, but we were talking about the cattle programs and
we were talking about sales, grazing fees, pasture maintenance,
and all that sort of thing. I asked them how they thought the people
had taken our meeting. They were all uniform, they said that that
was probably the best meeting that they had ever attended, and that
everybody was very happy with the way things were going and they ap-
preciated that we got problems and we're trying to take care of those
problems. Even some of the oldtimers like old Morgan Smith, you
know. Morgan is the kind of a guy, he likes to be against things.
He's not always a supporter; he's an "aginer," you know, on some
things. But even he was quite enthusiastic about the meeting, and
he said it was a good meeting. He liked it. Everything seemed to
be going along fine. So I was happy to know that this was true.
Then on the 22nd we went up to Brighton. At Brighton I also
talked to the tribal leaders: to Dick Powers and his brother Tom,
Archie Johns, Frank Huff, Toby Johns, and Howard Micco, and Jack
Micco, some of the leaders. Dick Bowers particularly asked them
what they thought about the meeting that was there. They weren't
quite as enthusiastic as Big Cypress people. They were more reserved,
but they said it was a good meeting and that they figure that eventually

they're going to have to pay for all of this service anyway. They
hope that we could find some way to get them started in the cattle
business so they can make some money, and when they started making
money then these other problems won't be so bad. I said, well, that's
fine. While I was up there I got a call from Miami, and I was told
that Mike's case had been settled. He was acquitted and there wasn't
any need for me to come down anymore to his trial. Well, some of the
oldtimers there didn't understand English too well, so Joe Dan was
there. He worked for Education. Joe Dan was there, so I asked him
to interpret for me and he did. He explained what I had been talk-
ing about to the people and they listened to him. Then Cecil Johns
was up there on agency business, and he wanted to know if he could
ride home with me, and I said sure. So when we left that evening,
why Cecil and I went home together. I was talking to Cecil, he's
a member of the Brighton group, and I asked him what he thought about
all this that was going on. He said, "Well, everybody's just happy
with the way things are going. They have no reason to be suspicious
about anything and they think that everything's fine." I knew Cecil
before I came to Florida because he'd worked in Washington for a
while and he and my boy Ray were good friends and my daughter Diana.
My daughter Diana was secretary to the commissioner in Washington.
So I knew him. He was their friend, and I knew him through them.
Of course I also knew that he was a Seminole. I knew Agnes Johns,
too, because she was there in Washington for a while. So all in all,
these young folks seemed to be doing pretty well here. Cecil seemed
to be getting along all right. He's our project supply officer, and
Agnes is one of the secretaries in the office, so things are beginning
to work out for them, I think.
September 23. I spent most of the day in the office. We dis-
cussed the OEO projects. Paul Nelson was on top of that, so I didn't
have too many problems with that. Birdie Clark and Sam Burns were
on top of the credit program, so they were trying to get money lined
up for the two enterprises. So everything was going along fine. Mr.
Trickda came in and told me that his housing survey, the one that I'd
asked him to make, was just about completed. He brought me in and
showed me what he had accumulated in the way of data. I must say,
he had done a very, very good job. He was very thorough. He checked
out every camp, and if there was no utilities, that was indicated:
no water, no sewage, no electricity, and how did they cook, open
campfire or kerosene stove. He had all that listed. What kind of
buildings they had: were they just chickee type buildings, cement
block buildings, how about access roads, all of these things were listed.

whether they cooked by open fire, kerosene stove, or how they cooked.
Everything that was pertinent to the description of the physical lay-
out of each camp was listed: number of people who were in that camp;
number of families, children, everything, was listed. Of course we
had other information in addition to that but the total physical pic-
ture that he accumulated was supplemented by photographs. He took
photographs of every camp. He had five or six views of every camp
and the occupants of these camps. He did this for every camp on the
Big Cypress and the Brighton reservation and also the Dania reserva-
tion. So his record was quite comprehensive and excellent.
September 24. Lieutenant Commander Larsen from the Public Health
Service came. He wanted to talk about the water and sewage program
and low-rent housing project. Mr. Jockey and Mrs. Waller also came
over to talk about the low-rent housing. But it looks pretty much
like the project is going to be a long time in developing. We've
got so many problems that have to be resolved before we can get to
actual construction. And so, the housing committee is going to have
to really get on the ball here. And apparently one of their problems
at this point is Saul Wiley. He's never available for any meetings
in the evenings. Most of them work and they have a hard time getting
to see him during the day. So there seems to be a breach here that
is going to have to be resolved pretty soon.
September 25. This was Jim Hale's last day at the agency and the
employees are having a party for him tonight which should be interesting.
September 27. Left the agency at 1 PM and arrived at Moore Haven
at 3:30. Visited with Jim Pace and Dave Jones regarding our pasture
and livestock program on the reservation. Then we went on to Brighton
for a meeting at 8 PM. Dave Jones talked about grass, fertilization,
rotation, and use of pasture, and Jim Pace talked about calf crops,
breeding seasons, and selecting bulls, etc. Both men gave excellent
talks. There were about forty people present and they were very in-
terested in what was going on. Bill and Billy talked and explained
things after each speaker. I think there was a general understanding
of what was being said in the meeting. The meeting lasted 'til 11 PM
and then we adjourned and went to Clewiston and stayed overnight there.
September 28. Had quite an interesting day. I saw a large rattle-
snake on the road and I tried to run over it and I missed him three
times. I finally knocked his tail off. I cut his tail off with the
wheels, but he's going to be a mean surprise to somebody if he doesn't
grow some rattles pretty quick. Jim Pace and Mr. Jones and Fred
Monsteoca arrived after lunch at Big Cypress. We went over some of

our projects there. Then that evening we had another meeting, same
as we had at Brighton the night before. Again we had a good turn-
out, and everything seemed to be moving along all right. This meet-
ing, however, we got more audience participation than we did at
Brighton, and this one lasted until about midnight before it broke
up. I think everybody was getting a little bit weary and tired.
September 29. I spent most of the day in the office talking
with staff memebers about various projects that we were interested
in, to see how things were moving along. After lunch I had a meet-
ing with Bill and Billy, Sam and Birdie, and Saul Wiley about the
village and arts and craft enterprise. Dr. Wiley's supposed to have
had this under his surveillance and guidance, and so far he hasn't
come up with very much. So it looks very muchllike we're going to
have to try and work out some management programs for the village.
They're not doing as well as they should. Of course this is a slack
season. But the Bureau has decided that the two craft shops, the
one at Brighton and the one at Big Cypress, ought to be included in
the village program, so that these plans of operations, will in effect
be an amendment to the existing plan of operations for the village
and the craft shop. Birdie has done a lot of exploring of the pro-
blem of developing two stores, one at Brighton and one at Big Cypress.
Shes's come up with a proposition that probably we ought to join the
AG store system and get a franchise. This would give us a good source
of wholesale items. We could have truck services at both places so
that we would get a good supply of things. Earl has come up with
some plans for a building which can be constructed for a nominal a-
mount. I think we can get both of these stores started for somewhere
in the neighborhood of $15,000 apiece. This looks like something we
can get to and get started with without too much delay.
September 30, Thursday. We called a special tribal council meet-
ing at Clewiston to talk about building two stores; one at Brighton,
one at Big Cypress. We'll be able to draw the money out of the treas-
ury. We also set up a board meeting at Dania on Wednesday. We're
going to try and modify the arts and craft and village enterprise.
We think we can add $26,000 and also put some of the money that we got
from Florida Power and Light for their right-of-way into that project,
so that we can come up with neighborhood of $45,000,$50,000. Every-
body's anxious to get these projects started right away, so we've
alerted Earl Trickda, and he's already started. He's got the one
building just about remodelled now. I think he's done it on credit,
but as soon as we get this paper work cleaned up here, well, we will

advance him the money and pay off his bills.
Friday, October 1. Jim Hale had a going away party given by the
tribal leaders. All the agency and tribal employees were present.
We had coffee, cake, and speeches. They gave him a jacket and he
seemed quite happy and friendly. Everything was on good, healthy
terms. He'd come over and talk with us and complimented me on the
job we were doing there and said that too bad that he didn't work
in; that he thought that we could eventually come up with some ex-
cellent programs. I told him that his problem wasn't with me and
he said, "Well, I know that." But he said, "I guess it's my own
fault," but he said, "you know, when you're trying to get a job done,
it's pretty hard to allow too many deviations and still be able to do
an efficient job." I said, "Yes." I said, "It makes it difficult."
So we had a pretty friendly little discussion there. First one I've
had with him for some time.
October 4. Dr. Benjamin McBraier and Ernie Downing arrived from
Oklahoma, from Public Health Service. They wanted to get familiar
with the reservation and some of the problems that we were having.
So I gave them copies of my summary of the economic condition, the
CAP report, and information I thought would be helpful to them. I
also arranged for them to tour all three reservations, and I called
Reggie Miller up down at Homestead and told him they were here and
that they would like to come down and see him, too, when they got
through here. He agreed to show them around when it came his turn.
We discussed the provision of utilities and the cost of those on the
three reservations. We discussed, too, the water problem at Brighton.
They've got a horrible water problem there. It's so highly mineral-
ized that it's almost unfit. It's palatable, but just barely. They
said that they were aware of the problem. They were thinking of some
way they might aerate the water or do something that would change its
taste. The purification of the water wasn't the problem; it was the
taste. So we got a chance to generally talk about the general health
conditions on the reservation, the need particularly for dental ser-
vices and so on. But the actual medical arrangements weren't too bad;
they were working fine. Indians had selected doctors that they liked
to go to and the doctors would put them in the hospitals that were
within the program, so that part of the program was working all right.
But the reservation area and the public health phases of it was where
we had a lot of our problems. Mr. Trickda had come in, and I'd asked
him to sit in on all public health meetings, particularly where it
had to do with utilities because of his general knowledge of this

subject. So he added very materially to the meeting, discussed a
number of things.
Incidentally, Ernie Downing is an Indian from Oklahoma. He and
I go back a long ways together. He's about my age, maybe a year or
two older. Ernie's had some very important jobs in the Bureau. He's
been area director and he's been on the Washington staff and he was
in charge of investigations for a long while in the Bureau. He may
have investigated me a time or two, so far as I know. But he's very
capable. Dr. McBraier seemed quite interested and concerned. So
all this talk about people in the big government organizations having
no feelings and no interest is a lot of malarkey. These fellows are
actually quite interested and disturbed about the conditions. Their
problem isn't so much that they don't want to do anything. Their
problem is to make use of the funds that are available to them. So
here again, we arrive at a situation in which they're given a reputa-
tion undeservedly.
October 5. I have most of the charts drafted for our tribal coun-
cil meeting at Clewiston tonight. Mr. Trickda is bringing store plans
up to date. At 6 o'clock we had a meeting at Clewiston. It started
off with a dinner, then the tribal council approved the site locations
for the two stores and also a site location-for the future housing
development at Brighton. Then they approved the transfer of $24,000
to the board of directors to finance the two stores. They approved
a $20,000 transfer to the board to finance two craft shops and gave
the board full authority to proceed with.these projects and gave them
all the support and backing the tribal council could offer.
October 6. Meeting of the board of directors. By resolution the
board approved the cattle regulations, the cattle raisers' agreement,
amendment to the land development budget, modification of the village
and craft shop, modification of regulations making them effective with
grazing fees for January 1. So with these regulations we are now all
set with the cattle programs. It's a question of making them function
effectively, and this is a job that Monsteoca and I and all of the
tribal officials are going to have to be working on pretty hard for
the next few months to get things lined up properly.
We were notified that all of the CAP stuff has been approved and
everything is set up. We're about ready to get started. All of our
facilities are ready. We spent that money before we got it, but we're
about ready to start. We're ready to set up the program. Bill Boehmer
came in to talk to me, and he told me he was going to retire from his
job. He said he's just had enough. He's been here twenty-five years,
and he's had some thirty years' service. They have no children, he

and Edith, and so it isn't a financial matter with him; it was a labor
of love. But he has now decided that things are getting to a point
where the Indians don't have as great a need for him as they did in
the past, and that he thinks he'll just fold it up and retire. He was
very complimentary, and he said that he was pleased to see me here and
that I had accomplished a great deal in a short time. He was hoping
that it would all be for the good. He thought that maybe we were mov-
ing pretty rapidly on some things, and he felt that, notwithstanding
that, he says it looked healthy. He said he's never seen the tribe
so excited and so optimistic as they are now. I told him that so far
as I knew, that the tribe had a great respect for he and Edith, and
there was a place of great affection in their hearts for him and his
wife, and all the things they'd done all these years. Everybody would
hate to see him go, and would hate to try and fill the void that he
would leave-in the organization.
One thing that Bill said about us moving extremely rapid seems...
I've heard this before. I've heard it in the central office, and I've
heard it a number of other places. But actually I was superintendent
at Fort Berthole, and I was superintendent at Crow Creek in Louil-,
and I was superintendent at Benominie for a while, and I've been in
reservation programs for the last ten or fifteen years. One of the
jobs that I had in Washington was to consider tribal programs of var-
ious kinds, consider the merits of them. I know all kinds of different
programs all over the Indian service, and I've just selected some of
the better ones in my mind, and these are the ones I am using down
here. So this is not altogether original with me. Neither is it al-
together new. We've been over this ground before, and I know what some
of the problems are. I know what kind of protective devices we need
to incorporate in some of these things. It's not that I'm sitting
here masterminding all of this stuff all at once. It may seem that
way, but that isn't what's happening. What's actually happening is
I'm drawing on my experience, I'm drawing on the experiences of other
groups, and I'm selecting the things that have been most successful
elsewhere. I'm modifying them and trying to establish them there. Of
course, there are some problems here, like the cattle program, that's
unique to this situation. But most of this other stuff is not new;
not either to the Bureau or to me. Both Al Huber and I recognize that
some of this stuff is old hat.
October 7. We spent most of the day in the office 'cause we had
to modify the land development program and the plan of operation for
the village, draw up the new plans of operation:for the stores, and

get things lined up and do all the paper work. This is an exhausting
job. It's a big job and everybody's working on it. We're trying to
get everything done so we can get it on the way to Washington. We
don't have to wait for Washington's action because they've given us
authority now to move on some projects. So most of the projects that
I can hold under $25,000 I can move on myself and without having to
go through all of the long waiting period that is involved when you
have to deal with Washington.
October 8. We've been invited to come to Washington to go over
some plans that the Washington staff has now completed on the restau-
rant and the motel. So we'll fly up, probably today sometime. I'm
going to take Bill and Billy and Laura May and Dr. Wiley and Earl
Trickda along on this trip, and give them an idea, let them sit in
on some of these meetings and see what's going on.
October 11, 10 AM. This is a meeting with Jim Bennett, Mr. Mc-
Gregor, Eduardo Ramiriz, Bob Jones, Bill Walts, and Pete Walts,
Gordon Evans, Ernie Page, Dick Massey, and various and sundry other
people in their units. The purpose of this meeting is to talk over
the restaurant, the motel, and the golf course. The plans and cost
estimates have been completed by the Washington office, and we're
looking at a $2,200,000 figure. Bill, Billy, Frank Billie, Dan
Osceola, Laura May, Dr. Wiley, and I -- we were completely flabber-
gasted. That's about twice what we thought that they would be
willing to consider. But here it is -- $2,200,000. It's something
that they are advocating that we do. They said the bigger we get in
the motel business, the more chance we have of success. The better
the golf course is, the bigger it is, the more popular it will become,
and it pays to go the rest of the distance and get something first
class. So we spent a good deal of time going over the detailed plans
of all that has been accomplished to this time by the central office.
At 2:30 in the afternoon we had a meeting with the industrial de-
velopment people. They have explored the possibility of providing
water and sewage and access roads on the reservation. Dr. Wiley told
them that the city of Hollywoood is willing to let us hook up to their
sewage system, that it wouldn't cost us too much to do it at this time.
But if we wait until that main access road to the ocean is completed,
that's going to be a six-land road and we have to tear that up to put
a unit through there, why, it's going to be expensive. So the people
in the central office said, "Well, we'll give you the money, you go
ahead before they get to that point in their construction, then you
lay a canal through that road, a tunnel through that road, so that
you can run your sewage through there, and we'll pay for the cost of
that." So that was fine. We said we would do that.

Ray Tanner told me that he has been exploring this, the possi-
bility of this project with EDA and SBA, but that in neither instances
were the programs tailored to meet our needs. It looks like we're
going to be stymied by their policy. In other words, they just feel
that the kind of projects we have don't fit their programs. It doesn't
look too hopeful about us being able to get some money. However, Mr.
Walts came up with a proposition. He said he thought that the Farmers'
Home Administration had money which could be used for purposes of this
kind. Eduardo Ramiriz said that he had a long time friend of his who
was over in the Farmers' Home Administration. He suggested that we
go over and see him and see what he says about it. I said, "Well,
okay." It looks like we're beginning to run down some blind alleys
on funding this golf course and motel. The end result is, of course,
that we could finally get the money from the Bureau itself, but I
don't know whether they're going to really allow us to get to that
point until we've exhausted everything else.
October 12 to 15. Tuesday through Friday. We've had so many
meetings, some of them informal, all over the place. Everybody's
going in different directions, so that it's a little difficult for me
to put things in proper perspective. I've just made some notes here
on different things. Dick Massey has got a staff realignment set-up
that he wants me to consider. He gave me a copy of it and I agreed;
I like the plan. He said he'd be willing to come down or send some-
body down to help us put it over with the tribe. The tribal leaders
wanted to go over to the Hill and visit some of the congressmen and
senators, so I went over there with them. While we were over there
I took them around to see Dr. Ben Rifle. He used to be my superin-
tendent; I was his assistant for a number of years. Ben and I worked
together for a long time and so we had a chance to visit a little bit
and talk. Then we went over and talked with Paul Rogers. He asked
us how the OEO program was going and did we get all of the money we
wanted for the community action program. I told him that we were
getting real good service from Warren Cardwell. Becktoll, however,
was still giving the tribe a little trouble here and there. He said
well, he's had reports about Becktoll before, and he's going to see
if he can't calm him down a little bit. So I said, well, anything
that he could do that would be helpful to us, we would appreciate.
Then I met with Sy Fryer and Will Pitner and Lonnie Sherrett and Bob
Jones and Gordon McGregor about the cattle program and all of the
things that we had submitted. They suggested that we had really done
a good job. They liked it. They thought everything was fine. They
thought we had gone as far as we could go. Now Sy Fryer, the assis-
tant commissioner, he's a real salty character. I've known him for

a long time. He's an old ex-superintendent. He told me, he said,
"Well now Rex, you've got some real big problems with your bull
breeding programs. Now we think it's time for us to get into that
and see if we can't help you straighten out your breeding programs.
We're going to send some of our people down there and we'll meet
with the university people and with the state extension service,
and we'll come up some of our ideas." I said, "Well, that'd be
great. We'd be glad to have their help, because I'm not a cattle
man. I've been around cattle a long time, but I'm really not a
cattle man in the sense that I have that much continuing interest
in it."
I was around education and talked to them about Mr. Boehmer re-
tiring. They said they would replace him when that happened, that
they had some good people they like to put down there. And I said,
"Well, that's fine."Whoever they sent, as long as he was capable
of running the program, was satisfactory with me. I talked with
Will Pitner, who succeeded Evan Flore as chief of the branch of
Land Operations. And I told him that I'd like to have ...
... going to be important to us, particularly Bob Bennett who's
coming in from Alaska to replace John O. Crow as the deputy commis-
sioner. Grant Holmes was leaving the central office to go out to
Navaho and replace Glenn Landblum, who was out there. Landblum was
going to Minneapolis. Salina Gifford and Hildegarde Thomas, both,
were going to retire. Salina was assistant commissioner in charge
of Community Services, and Hildegarde Thomas was the chief of the
branch of education. Les Toll, one of the area directors, Les Toll
and Bob Holkes, another area director, both old acquaintances of
mine, are going to retire. Sy Fryer, who has been so helpful to
us -- he's been down to the Seminoles so many times, and has had such
a personal interest in the Seminoles -- and he's now going to retire.
I don't know, that's going to be like getting a body blow because he's
been a real friend of ours. He's helped us immensely.
October 17, 18, and 19. We drove home from Washington and stop-
ped at Cherokee on the way. I stopped in to thank Don Jensen, the
superintendent, for the services of Evanella Thomason, and I told
him how important that was to us and what a good job she did. He
showed me through their arts and craft program there, and it's dif-
ferent than ours. Theirs is truly artistic, and ours is commercial.
So I really didn't get too much out of that.

October 20. Bill and I and Joe Billie, we looked over the arts
and craft shop in the village. I pointed out a number of things
which I thought had to be changed. There was so much that was not
Seminole in the village, and it detracted from the real Seminole
stuff. So I told them that I thought that what we ought to do is
get rid of some of that plywood and stuff and put real Seminole
things in there. In other words, the chickee should be Seminole
chickee all the way through, the platform, everything. Then I
noticed that there wasn't any citrus, there wasn't any trees, there
wasn't very much of anything out there. I told Bill I thought that
there's a lot of stuff out there. Make it look realistic, make it
look Seminole. So he did that. Then we planned a sort of a council
fireplace. I told him, you know, I said, "People like to know about
Seminoles." "Now," I said, "you got clans, haven't you?" "Yeah."
"Well," I said, "why don't you have a big Seminole fire here. A
big fireplace here for the people. They could walk by on this path
and there's a fireplace here. Then behind that in a semi-circle
you could have little chickees with the names of each of the clans
on it. So that it'd indicate that this was where the clan members
sat during a council meeting. Put some logs down there, for people
will get the idea that's where people sat on, and so on." I said,
"Make it look Seminole." I said, "There are all kinds of trees out
there in the Everglades, big trees, that you could dig up and just
put on a truck, lift them up with a crane and put it on a truck and
haul them in here and plant it in here." I said, "It'd take you
forty years to grow those trees, but you could do that in a short
time." I said, "Get yourself a couple of men and go out and dig a
lot of that stuff up and bring it in here." I said, "Make this look
like Seminole." So he liked that idea. They were making notes.
Earl Trickda was along with us and he was also making notes on some
of the things that I suggested. When we got through with that, then
we talked about some of the work that was being done on Big Cypress.
I told them that I thought that this business of cutting cypress was
a very good idea, because now we were getting ready to start these
little enterprises going, and we would have a good supply of work
material to start with. But I cautioned Bill. I said, "Now, Bill,
let's not jump in there and start buying equipment right away. Let's
get things lined up first. Let's get a man in charge. Then we'll
select the equipment, and then we start hiring the people. We hire
them one by one and train them a little bit. Then get them started.
Then hire a few more and train them a little bit, and keep on 'til
we get as many people as we're going to need. Let's do this gradually."

So Bill, he said that was a good idea. The tribe had a man lined up
that they wanted to run it. So I told them, "Bring him over. I'll
talk with him. We'll see what can work out."
October 21 Art Walts stopped in. He was interested, of course,
in our forestry projects, and so he said he was going out to the re-
servation with Richer and look things over. Richer was the forestry
assistant. So I said, "Okay." He said in the next day or so he'd be
back in the office and talk to me about it. I said, Well, that's
fine." Then Bill thought that the Bureau was not putting up enough
money on some of these things. He thought this was getting to be
too much of a financial handicap for the tribe. He thought that the
Bureau ought to pay for some of the studies that are being made,
particularly the ones with the golf course and the motel and hotel.
I said, "Well, that's fine. We.'ll arrange for that. I think I can
get the money for that." So I agreed that the Bureau would pay for
October 22. We've been looking for a decal to put on the craft
objects that are being built or will be built by the workers. Some-
thing that, you know, would be Seminole: little designs of Seminole
Indian chiefs or animals or reptiles or birds or something that, you
know, you could put on and make it look Seminole. We've finally
worked out a deal with a fellow here in Ft. Lauderdale. We've been
to Miami, Miami Beach, Hollandale, Hollywood, and Dania, and now we're
in Ft. Lauderdale. We finally found a man that could do what we
wanted to do at a reasonable time. It's going to be expensive to
get the first orders in, but after that it shouldn't be too expensive.
Saturday, October 23. Bill Kidd and Sam Flowers came in to see
me. They were talking about the state reservation. I told them
that I didn't know really too much about it. The state had set aside
this area for the Indians and we were satisfied that that was fine.
But I said Reggie Miller and Buffalo Tiger were talking in terms of
the mineral rights, and they had done a lot more work about that
than I had. I suggested he go down there and talk to them and see
what they had to say about it. They could bring up to date. They're
much more cognizant of what's going on. I haven't really had much
time to get into that thing. They have, and they've been working on
it pretty steady. So they agreed they would go down and talk to
Reggie Miller and Buffalo Tiger and then they'd stop by and see me
again. I said, "Well, that'd be fine." Bill is the commissioner
of Indian affairs for the Indians of Florida, so I gave Bill a copy
of our community action program and some of the other programs that
we're working on. He seemed to be happy to get that. So he went on
his way, and we'll see him again.

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