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Interview with Jim Shore, September 18, 1972

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Title:
Interview with Jim Shore, September 18, 1972
Creator:
Shore, Jim ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:
Language:
English

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Seminole Indians
Seminoles -- Florida
Seminole Oral History Collection ( local )

Notes

Funding:
This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

Record Information

Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'Seminoles' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
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Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/.
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SEM 62 ( SPOHP IDENTIFIER )

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Full Text
INDIAN ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA
In cooperation with The Seminole Tribe of Florida
INTERVIEWEE: Jim Shore
INTERVIEWER: Tom King
DATE: September 18, 1972
DORIS DUKE FOUNDATION


SUMMARY
Jim Shore, son of Frank Shore, the medicine man of
Brighton Reservation, describes life at the Haskell Institute,
an Indian junior college in Lawrence, Kansas. He
discusses curriculum, discipline, living quarters, and pre-
paration for employment. The reasons for sending Indian
students away to boarding school are mentioned. Shore
also comments on the lack of farming among the Seminoles.
Frank Shore and his influence as medicine man on the
Brighton Reservation are discussed.


INDEX
Agriculture, 9-10
Education
BIA influence, 5-6
Haskell Institute (junior college, Lawrence, Kansas), 1-5
Employment, 7, 10-11
Medicine men, 7-8


I: Jim, I understand you were sent to boarding school. Can you tell
me what boarding school you were sent to?
S: The one in Lawrence, Kansas, named Haskell Institute or something
like that. [Haskell is actually a junior college. I was not aware
of this when I conducted this interview.]
I: And how old were you when you went to it?
S: About nineteen, I guess, somewhere around there.
I: How many years did you attend?
S: Two.
I: How much of an education had you gotten in public school before
you went to boarding school?
S: I finished up to twelfth grade.
I: So it was a kind of post-high school course then. Did you already
have your high school diploma before you went?
S: Yes.
I: Can you tell me why you were sent to boarding school or did you
choose voluntarily to go to boarding school yourself?
S: I don't know. After I got out of high school, there was nowhere else
to do, so I just got up. I went up there for two years, I guess.
I: Do you know what the major reason is for sending a student to boarding school?
I'm not talking about yourself now; I'm talking about
the other students.
S: Yes.
I: Why were most of them there?
S: I don't know. Just so they could get some kind of better job than
what they was doing, I guess.
I: Were most of them in the same situation you were, that they had al-
ready graduated from high school?


2
S: Yes.
I: Now this boarding school must be different from most of the other
ones then. As I understand it, a lot of the other schools are
mostly high school. Kids don't even have a high school diploma
when they go there.
S: Yes.
I: Is that true?
S: Yes. Some in Oklahoma is I think like that. This one here is one
I think you have to graduate from high school before you can go
to that one there now.
I: What kind of courses did you study at this boarding school in
Lawrence?
S: At the time it was vocational school, so I took up auto mechanics.
And I think since then they changed into a junior college or some-
thing.
I: What were your grades like while you were in public school, in
high school?
S: I don't know.
I: I know that's an embarrassing question, but all I'd like to know is
were your grades any better in boarding school than they were in
public high school?
S: Oh, they were better in the boarding school than they were in the
high school.
I: What do you think the reason is for that?
S: I think the boarding school, there wasn't all that much to it, I
don't think. There wasn't too much book work. Mostly it was just
a vocational school.
I: Standards weren't very high? Well, do you think you would have been
a good automobile mechanic when you graduated from it? Did they
teach you well?


3
S: Yes.
I: What sort of other courses did they teach there?
S: I don't know. Just three other courses. First year there you
had to take like in the class room in the morning, but in the
afternoon they was all down in that shop there, just pokin'
around in them engines and stuff like that.
I: How was your time spent when you weren't in class?
S: They had all kind of activities going there at that place. If
you feel like it you could use all them things they had there.
If you wanted to. That's what I done. I done.
I: What were these other activities that they had? Can you tell me
some of them?
S: I don't know. This stuff with sports. They had that intramural
stuff. They didn't have classes in things like that.
I: What were some of the rules and regulations governing life at the
school?
S: I don't know. They just had certain times, just certain things.
You had to be in class and you had to have a good reason to miss
classes, just things like that I guess.
I: Were you allowed to do whatever you wanted while you were out of
class?
S: Yes, until curfew at night time. Then you had to be back in at
that hour I guess.
I: Now what was curfew? What time?
S: I think it was ten on the week nights, and I think it was a little
later on the weekends. I forget what time it was.
I: Now weekends, you weren't allowed to sign out for an entire weekend
then?
S: Yes, they would let you sign out if you had a note from your parents
and things like that. If you checked out. They'd let you check out.


4
I: Now, where did you live on the campus?
S: Right there in the dormitory on campus.
I: Was there somebody in charge of the dormitory?
S: Yes.
I: Who was it? What were they like? Was it another student? Was
it an administrator, somebody they hired specially for the job,
or what?
S: Yes, they was just hired for that, supervisors in the dormitory
for the kids.
I: Were they Indians or white people?
S: The time I was there they were all Indians, but I don't know
how it is now.
I: What exactly was their job? What were they there to do?
S: I don't know. They'd just make sure that everybody was up on time.
If you had to clean the bathroom and things like that, you had to
help clean up some of the places around there.
I: Did you have daily chores that you were supposed to do?
S: Yes.
I: What were they?
S: I don't know. It was just about anything from just cleaning up the
restrooms or things like that, maybe mop the hallway or something.
I: And these dorm administrators, superintendents, they were there to
see that you did it?
S: Yes.
I: If you did not do it, or if you did something that they did not
like, how did they enforce their authority? What were the forms
of discipline used?


5
S: I don't know. The time that I was there everybody done what
they was told to, so I don't think I know or knew anybody that
didn't do what they were supposed to do. I don't know how they
dealt with them people.
I: That is unusual. You were there for two years and nobody ever
broke a rule?
S: They might have done something that wasn't clean enough, and
they might have made them do it over again, but I don't know.
I never did know anybody. They might have been late and things,
but nobody ever said they didn't want to do it.
I: Yes. Well, could they have punished you? Could they have given
you some sort of physical punishment?
S: No, I don't think so, not physical.
I: So about the only thing they could have done then would be, as
you said, put you on extra duty or something.
S: Yes. They might keep you there on a weekend. They wouldn't let
you sign out on a weekend, keep you there and make you do it over
again or something like that.
I: Yes. How did you like boarding school?
S: I don't know. It was o.k., I guess.
I: That's a long way to be away from home, though, isn't it? What
was it, nine months of the year you had to go?
S: Yes.
I: Did you decide to go to boarding school on your own or did some-
body come around and tell you it might be a good idea for you to
go?
S: Think it was somebody that told me, trying to help me. Never go
anywhere.
I: Who was it? Some one from the BIA or in the tribe?
S: BIA, from the BIA, I think.


6
I: And what were the reasons he gave you for going to boarding
school?
S: I don't know. I forget.
I: Did your parents have to o.k. it?
S: Yes, they...I guess so. They would have to o.k. it.
I: Did the fellow from the BIA talk to your parents?
S: They probably did somewhere, sometime.
I: See what I'm trying to find out, Jim, is that there must be some
reason why they would have sent you to boarding school. They must
have told you what it was.
S: Yes.
I: And we would like to know. I talked to some people over in Hollywood
who had either gone to one of the boarding high schools or had had
their children sent to one of those boarding high schools.
S: Yes.
I: And they told me things that are a little bit different from what
you tell me about this boarding school. Now this boarding school
is a different school from the ones they went to, certainly.
S: Yes.
I: And they said that some of them were required to go to boarding
school; they didn't have much choice in the matter. They apparently
had had problems, not having to do with schooling necessarily, but
perhaps with environment, problems at home or problems at school
that they felt could be corrected by going to boarding school, and
that was the reason given for sending them.
S: Yes.
I: Some of them didn't even want to go. I know they were just sent.
They didn't have any choice.
S: They didn't send them up there I don't think, because they stayed
down here.


7
I: Yes. Now you feel that it was a good thing that you went, though?
S: Yes, I think so.
I: Have you ever done anything in the way of automobile mechanics since
you got out?
S: Yes. Not too much of it, but just a little bit of it, yes.
I: Is there any program that would help you or other graduates of
boarding schools, that would help get you a job in whatever field
you had studied while you were in school,,once you get out. Was
somebody around to help you get a job as a mechanic after you got
out of boarding school?
S: Yes, I think everybody that goes through that school, they send them
out. I think if everybody wants to they probably could get a job for
everyone of them that finishes the school.
I: Well, that's good. Would the job be in Oklahoma or in Florida or
in Kansas?
S: Anywhere in this United States they'd give jobs. They sent them all
over the country.
I: Now did you work any around here when you got out?
S: No, ever since I got here I never worked on mechanics for a living.
I used it just a little bit for my own use, I guess.
I: Jim, did you ever think of becoming a medicine man?
S: No.
I: Why not?
S: I don't know. It never crossed my mind, I think.
I: Do you know of anybody else on the Brighton Reservation who has
had any medicine man training, that can be able to continue after
your father is no longer here?
S: Let's see, I don't think so, not on this reservation I don't think.


8
I: Do you have any idea why? Just a personal opinion why nobody
wants to be a medicine man anymore?
S: I don't know. Maybe people don't think too much of medicine men
no more, I guess. I don't know.
I: Is there any prestige that goes along with being a medicine man?
People respect you, don't they?
S: Well, in my father's case I think everybody does with him.
I: Yes. You can't make any money as a medicine man, though, can
you?
S: No. Well, I don't think so.
I: Who would be respected most let's say on the Brighton Reservation?
A man with a lot of money or a medicine man or who? What's the
criteria for status and respect on the reservation? Is it wealth?
S: I don't know, it might be. If it's anybody it's Dan Bear. Dan Bear
has more money than the rest of them. Then there's so many people
that kind of hate him for it,.too.
I: Yes, that seems to happen in most societies. Is there any one man
out here on the reservation more respected than anybody else?
S: I don't know. You mean just on this one reservation?
I: Yes, just on Brighton Reservation. Anybody that everybody else
listens to? Takes his advice?
S: I don't know. I'd probably say my father, but then you've probably
heard that from other people.
I: Why would that be because he's medicine man, or because he's old, or
because he has a little bit of money, or what?
S: Probably a little bit of all of that, and because he's got more than
just several cents in his head.
I: Yes, who else after your father?
S: I don't know. After him you've just got to dig deep to find some-
body with the amount of sense that he's got.


9
I: Yes. Do you know of any Seminoles that received any agricultural
training? I don't mean in anything to do with cattle, I'm
talking about growing crops.
S: Let's see. I don't know. I don't know. Just maybe, out there at
that darn thing.
I: There aren't any boarding schools that would teach you this. Did
you have any agricultural training at the school that you went
to?
S: No.
I: Now the reason I'm asking you this, I'm curious about the fact that
there's no farming done out here on the Brighton Reservation. I
know that there used to be. I've talked to some older people, inclu-
ding your father.
S: Yes.
I: Who've told me that people used to grow quite large farms out here,
some of them as large as thirty acres.
S: Yes.
I: And I see that there are none at all out here now and that most
people don't even have a garden. I'm wondering why. Do you have
any idea why no farms are growing?
S: They're just lazy.
I: Oh, come on, now. Really?
S: Yes, probably. Probably whatever they want today, they probably
get it just that quick down in town, in the stores.
I: Yes, well, you know, a lot of money can be made at farming and I
was curious about that, why everybody chooses to raise cattle
instead of crops.
S: Yes.
I: I know a lot of the land here had been used for tomato farming by
large farming corporations.
S: Yeah.


10
I: Have the Seminoles ever thought of doing something like that
themselves? You know, it is quite profitable. It's even more
profitable than raising cattle.
S: I don't know. I don't know if anybody ever thought about it or
not.
I: Yes. Of course, there's quite a risk to it if the crop fails.
Then you lose a lot of money. I guess that that must enter in-
to it. What about growing sugar cane? Has anybody ever grown
sugar cane out here?
S: You mean on the reservation?
I: On the reservation, yes.
S: Not in a big quantity like they do around the lake. They just
raise a little bit of it in the back yard or something like
that. Not big. Sometimes it comes up, sometimes it doesn't.
I: Yes. The Seminoles used to have their own sugar mill, didn't
they? Refined sugar themselves from sugar cane?
S: Yes. There's one old guy who used to do that for himself.
I: Does anybody still do that?
S: No, I don't think so.
I: Do you know what the name of the guy was who did it? You said
one old fellow used to do it.
S: Yes.
I: I was hoping that it was somebody still alive that I could talk
to about it.
S: It's too late now.
I: Yes. Does anybody out here still trap animals for a living? You
know, otters and alligators and things?
S: Not for a living, but my brother usually does trap otters and things
like that during the winter, during hunting season, and things like
that.


11
I: Yes.
S: Just for that four months.
I: What about alligators? Do they kill them out here for the hides?
S: I don't know.
I: I was wondering how that State law against killing alligators for
the hides would effect the Seminoles. Does that law apply to the
reservation as well as the rest of the state of Florida?
S: I don't know...before they had that, used to be you could kill
anything on the reservation. I don't know if you still can or not,
maybe not. I don't know.


Full Text

PAGE 1

INDIAN ORAL HISTORY PROJECT UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA In cooperation with The Seminole Tribe of Florida INTERVIEWEE: Jim Shore INTERVIEWER: Tom King DATE: September 18, 1972 DORIS DUKE FOUNDATION

PAGE 2

SUMMARY Jim Shore, son of Frank Shore, the medicine man of Brighton Reservation, describes life at the Haskell Insti tute, an Indian junior college in Lawrence, Kansas. He discusses curriculum, discipline, living quarters, and pre paration for employment. The reasons for sending Indian students away to boarding school are mentioned. Shore also comments on the lack of farming among the Seminoles. Frank Shore and his influence as medicine man on the Brighton Reservation are discussed.

PAGE 3

Agriculture, 9-10 Education BIA influence, 5-6 INDEX Haskell Institute (junior college, Lawrence, Kansas), 1-5 Employment, 7, 10-11 Medicine men, 7-8

PAGE 4

I: Jim, I understand you were sent to boarding school. Can you tell me what boarding school you were sent to? S: The one in Lawrence, Kansas, named Haskell Institute or something like that. [Haskell is actually a junior college. I was not aware of this when I conducted this interview.] I: .And how old were you when you went to it? S: About nineteen, I guess, somewhere around there. I: How many years did you attend? S: Two. I: How much of an education had you gotten in public school before you went to boarding school? S: I finished up to twelfth grade. I: So it was a kind of post-high school course then. Did you already have your high school diploma before you went? S: Yes. I: Can you tell me why you were sent to boarding school or did you choose voluntarily to go to boarding school yourself? S: I don't know. After I got out of high school, there was nowhere else to do, so I just got up. I went up there for two years, I guess. I: Do you know what the major reason is for sending a student to board ing school? I'm not talking about yourself now; I'm talking about the other students. S: Yes. I: Why were most of them there? S: I don't know. Just so they could get some kind of better job than what they was doing, I guess. I: Were most of them in the same situation you were, that they had al ready graduated from high school?

PAGE 5

2 S: Yes. I: Now this boarding school must be different from most of the other ones then. As I understand it, a lot of the other schools are mostly high school. Kids don't even have a high school diploma when they go there. S: Yes. I: Is that true? S: Yes. Some in Oklahoma is I think like that. This one here is one I think you have to graduate from high school before you can go to that one there now. I: What kind of courses did you study at this boarding school in Lawrence? S: At the time it was vocational school, so I took up auto mechanics. And I think since then they changed into a junior college or some thing. I: What were your grades like while you were in public school, in high school? S: I don't know. I: I know that's an embarassing question, but all I'd like to know is were your grades any better in boarding school than they were in public high school? S: Oh, they were better in the boarding school than they were in the high school. I: What do you think the reason is for that? S: I think the boarding school, there wasn't all that much to it, I don't think. There wasn't too much book work. Mostly it was just a vocational school. I: Standards weren't very high? Well, do you think you would have been a good automobile mechanic when you graduated from it? Did they teach you well?

PAGE 6

3 S: Yes. I: What sort of other courses did they teach there? S: I don't know. Just three other courses. First year there you had to take like in the class room in the morning, but in the afternoon they was all down in that shop there, just pokin' around in them engines and stuff like that. I: How was your time spent when you weren't in class? S: They had all kind of activities going there at that place. If you feel like it you could use all them things they had there. If you wanted to. That's what I done. I done. I: What were these other activities that they had? Can you tell me some of them? S: I don't know. This stuff with sports. They had that intramural stuff. They didn't have classes in things like that. I: What were some of the rules and regulations governing life at the school? S: I don't know. They just had certain times, just certain things. You had to be in class and you had to have a good reason to miss classes, just things like that I guess. I: Were you allowed to do whatever you wanted while you were out of class? S: Yes, until curfew at night time. Then you had to be back in at that hour I guess. I: Now what was curfew? What time? S: I think it was ten on the week nights, and I think it was a little later on the weekends. I forget what time it was. I: Now weekends, you weren't allowed to sign out for an entire weekend then? S: Yes, they would let you sign out if you had a note from your parents and things like that. If you checked out. They'd let you check out.

PAGE 7

4 I: Now, where did you live on the campus? S: Right there in the dormitory on campus. I: Was there somebody in charge of the dormitory? S: Yes. I: Who was it? What were they like? Was it another student? Was it an administrator, somebody they hired specially for the job, or what? S: Yes, they was just hired for that, supervisors in the dormitory for the kids. I: Were they Indians or white people? S: The time I was there they were all Indians, but I don't know how it is now. I: What exactly was their job? What were they there to do? S: I don't know. They'd just make sure that everybody was up on time. If you had to clean the bathroom and things like that, you had to help clean up some of the places around there. I: Did you have daily chores that you were supposed to do? S: Yes. I: What were they? S: I don't know. It was just about anything from just cleaning up the restrooms or things like that, maybe mop the hallway or something. I: And these dorm administrators, superintendants, they were there to see that you did it? S: Yes. I: If you did not do it, or if you did something that they did not like, how did they enforce their authority? What were the forms of discipline used?

PAGE 8

5 S: I don't know. The time that I was there everybody done what they was told to, so I don't think I know or knew anybody that didn't do what they were supposed to do. I don't know how they dealt with them people. I: That is unusual. You were there for two years and nobody ever broke a rule? S: They might have done something that wasn't clean enough, and they might have made them do it over again, but I don't know. I never did know anybody. They might have been late and things, but nobody ever said they didn't want to do it. I: Yes. Well, could they have punished you? Could they have given you some sort of physical punishment? S: No, I don't think so, not physical. I: So about the only thing they could have done then would be, as you said, put you on extra duty or something. S: Yes. They might keep you there on a weekend. They wouldn't let you sign out on a weekend, keep you there and make you do it over again or something like that. I: Yes. How did you like boarding school? S: I don't know. It was o.k., I guess. I: That's a long way to be away from home, though, isn't it? What was it, nine months of the year you had to go? S: Yes. I: Did you decide to go to boarding school on your own or did some body come around and tell you it might be a good idea for you to go? S: Think it was somebody that told me, trying to help me. Never go anywhere. I: Who was it? Some one from the BIA or in the tribe? S: BIA, from the BIA, I think.

PAGE 9

6 I: And what were the reasons he gave you for going to boarding school? S: I don't know. I forget. I: Did your parents have to o.k. it? S: Yes, they I guess so. They would have to o.k. it. I: Did the fellow from the BIA talk to your parents? S: They probably did somewhere, sometime. I: See what I'm trying to find out, Jim, is that there must be some reason why they would have sent you to boarding school. They must have told you what it was. S: Yes. I: And we would like to know. I talked to some people over in Hollywood who had either gone to one of the boarding high schools or had had their children sent to one of those boarding high schools. S: Yes. I: And they told me things that are a little bit different from what you tell me about this boarding school. Now this boarding school is a different school from the ones they went to, certainly. S: Yes. I: And they said that some of them were required to go to boarding school; they didn't have much choice in the matter. They apparently had had problems, not having to do with schooling necessarily, but perhaps with environment, problems at home or problems at school that they felt could be corrected by going to boarding school, and that was the reason given for sending them. S: Yes. I: Some of them didn't even want to go. I know they were just sent. They didn't have any choice. S: They didn't send them up there I don't think, because they stayed down here.

PAGE 10

7 I: Yes. Now you feel that it was a good thing that you went, though? S: Yes, I think so. I: Have you ever done anything in the way of automobile mechanics since you got out? S: Yes. Not too much of it, but just a little bit of it, yes. I: Is there any program that would help you or other graduates of boarding schools, that would help get you a job in whatever field you had studied while you were in school,,once you get out. Was somebody around to help you get a job as a mechanic after you got out of boarding school? S: Yes, I think everybody that goes through that school, they send them out. I think if everybody wants to they probably could get a job for everyone of them that finishes the school. I: Well, that's good. Would the job be in Oklahoma or in Florida or in Kansas? S: Anywhere in this United States they'd give jobs. They sent them all over the country. I: Now did you work any around here when you got out? S: No, ever since I got here I never worked on mechanics for a living. I used it just a little bit for my own use, I guess. I: Jim, did you ever think of becoming a medicine man? S: No. I: Why not? S: I don't know. It never crossed my mind, I think. I: Do you know of anybody else on the_Brighton Reservation who has had any medicine man training, that can be able to continue after your father is no longer here? S: Let's see, I don't think so, not on this reservation I don't think. ----------------------------------------------------

PAGE 11

8 I: Do you have any idea why? Just a personal opinion why nobody wants to be a medicine man anymore? S: I don't know. Maybe people don't think too much of medicine men no more, I guess. I don't know. I: Is there any prestige that goes along with being a medicine man? People respect you, don't they? S: Well, in my father's case I think everybody does with him. I: Yes. You can't make any money as a medicine man, though, can you? S: No. Well, I don't think so. I: Who would be respected most let's say on the Brighton Reservation? A man with a lot of money or a medicine man or who? What's the criteria for status and respect on the reservation? Is it wealth? S: I don't know, it might be. If it's anybody it's Dan Bear. Dan Bear has more money than the rest of them. Then there's so many people that kind of hate him for it,,too. I: Yes, that seems to happen in most societies. Is there any one man out here on the reservation more respected than anybody else? S: I don't know. You mean just on this one reservation? I: Yes, just on Brighton Reservation. Anybody that everybody else listens to? Takes his advice? S: I don't know. I'd probably say my father, but then you've probably heard that from other people. I: Why would that be because he's medicine man, or because he's old, or because he has a little bit of money, or what? S: Probably a little bit of all of that, and because he's got more than just several cents in his head. I: Yes, who else after your father? S: I don't know. After him you've just got to dig deep to find some body with the amount of sense that he's got.

PAGE 12

9 I: Yes. Do you know of any Seminoles that received any agricultural training? I don't mean in anything to do with cattle, I'm talking about growing crops. S: Let's see. I don't know. I don't know. Just maybe, out there at that darn thing. I: There aren't any boarding schools that would teach you this. Did you have any agricultural training at the school that you went to? S: No. I: Now the reason I'm asking you this, I'm curious about the fact that there's no farming done out here on the Brighton Reservation. I know that there used to be. I've talked to some older people, inclu ding your father. S: Yes. I: Who've told me that people used to grow quite large farms out here, some of them as large as thirty acres. S: Yes. I: And I see that there are none at all out here now and that most people don't even have a garden. I'm wondering why. Do you have any idea why no farms are growing? S: They're just lazy. I: Oh, come on, now. Really? S: Yes, probably. Probably whatever they want today, they probably get it just that quick down in town, in the stores. I: Yes, well, you know, a lot of money can be made at farming and I was curious about that, why everybaody chooses to raise cattle instead of crops. S: Yes. I: I know a lot of the land here had been used for tomato farming by large farming corporations. S: Yeah.

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10 I: Have the Seminoles ever thought of doing something like that themselves? You know, it is quite profitable. It's even more profitable than raising cattle. S: I don't know. I don't know if anybody ever thought about it or not. I: Yes. Of course, there's quite a risk to it if the crop fails. Then you lose a lot of money. I guess that that must enter in to it. What about growing sugar cane? Has anybody ever grown sugar cane out here? S: You mean on the reservation? I: On the reservation, yes. S: Not in a big quantity like they do around the lake. They just raise a little bit of it in the back yard or something like that. Not big. Sometimes it comes up, sometimes it doesn't. I: Yes. The Seminoles used to have their own sugar mill, didn't they? Refined sugar themselves from sugar cane? S: Yes. There's one old guy who used to do that for himself. I: Does anybody still do that? S: No, I don't think so. I: Do you know what the name of the guy was who did it? You said one old fellow used to do it. S: Yes. I: I was hoping that it was somebody still alive that I could talk to about it. S: It's too late now. I: Yes. Does anybody out here still trap animals for a living? You know, otters and alligators and things? S: Not for a living, but my brother usually does trap otters and things like that during the winter, during hunting season, and things like that.

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11 I: Yes. S: Just for that four months. I: What about alligators? Do they kill them out here for the hides? S: I don't know. I: I was wondering how that State law against killing alligators for the hides would effect the Seminoles. Does that law apply to the reservation as well as the rest of the state of Florida? S: I don't know before they had that, used to be you could kill anything on the reservation. I don't know if you still can or not, maybe not. I don't know.