Interview with James Wattenbarger, July 19, 1977

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Interview with James Wattenbarger, July 19, 1977
Wattenbarger, James ( Interviewee )
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History of Florida Education Oral History Collection ( local )


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INTERVIEWEE: James WattenbargerTUF PR075OFU : OR O -TX iT AioN 3 E blF r TCTZOOt I o
INTERVIEWER: Arthur White Con> 6b iT COLLE S II'-
DATE: July 19, 1977

A: Question number one: What junior college system or systems served as models for the

Florida system when you were developing the 1957 master plan?

J: One of the first things we did when we began the study for Florida's community college

program was to look around the country to see what other states had done in this

regard. This was in 1955 and of course there were only a few states that do taking

a leadership role in that early period, although there had been community colleges

around since the early 1900s, they had not developed very far in most states. Some

had grown by, sort of topsy like IS a of new institutions, a few had had

some planning and there were a several instances of study that had been conducted up

to that point. Naturally California was the major state that provided a model with

its 75)or so community colleges at that period of time and its earliest one being

established in 1900. We also looked at Michigan and Maryland and the state of Wash-

ington which had done a pretty good job of basic planning for community college

development. Of course Mississippi had a total state plan even in 1957 and was one

of few states in the Union that had really actually gone ahead with a plan that was

on an organized basis.

A: What consultants most influenced the ideas that shaped the master plan report in


J: Of course here again there were not too many people in the field that had done much

writing as of 195b,41'when we looked around the country to see those that we thought

could be the most help to us the foremost individual was Leonard B. Kuse, who as of

that time had retired from in the University of Chicago and was professor emeritus

from that institution. He also had determined that the University of Florida was

gone of the places that he wanted to spend the winter P he looked around several

places and decided that Florida was the place he wanted to spend his tim-4 LeMl R e

was active in research activities, especially library research, even up to a time

when he died just last year in 1977, 1976. Anyway we asked him to serve as a consul-

tant and we also asked one of his major students who's name was WC S.V. Martarana

Page 2

who at that time was a member of the staff of the U.S. Office of Education to serve

as our two major consultant a then in addition to those two, we selected people

who had had experience in adult education, continuing education, and in vocational

education. It came to mind a couple of people J who were d',continuously recommended

when we asked people about the some leadership around the country. Norman Harris,

who was at that time at Bakersfield, Californi W ,-aais e a% nc"g t B he just

retired this last year from dB-iUniversity of Michigan where he was a professor

for the last :B91 fifteen or twenty years2J. 000t ever since he began to work with

u oBaW .... _ 5Ma guy named Roy Minnis, who was ii a leader in the

adult education field and Tom Van Zant, who was a leader in adult education field.

Roy Minnis was from Colorado and Van Zandt was from Maryland. AWLbthen an addi-

tional person in the community college field was Grant Marston from the state of

Washington. Al that group of people constituted our major consultant groupwe also

worked with C.C. Culvert and Jim Reynolds who had done a previous study in Florida

4h related to community colleges. They were from the University of Texas.

A: What 0-a6g0rSolt 'conditions in Florida#S most shaped the direction the master plan

report took?

J: Florida wasftl unusual in several I respects. First we were a very rapidly growing

-stat ma .. if you look at theiR40 census, Florida

was the smallest state in the southeast region and thereforelg IcdonitI

remember exactly butI it must have been about 2tb in size in the nation at that point

somewhere along in that area. By 1960, Florida had become the largest state in the

southeastern region. So in a matter of twenty years you had a .Xe g very

rapid growth. we also did not have in Florida a large number of private institu-

tions. Community colleges have had a very difficult time in a number of states

where there have been private institutions because the private institutions fear that

the community college will in effect destroy them, 4iBthere is some evidence to

indicate that the weak private institutions are destroyed by competition which is

Page 3

probably a good thing as far as the overall benefit to people is concerned but it

doesn'tdo much for a guy who is working in a private institution or a president of

a private institution or a board of trustees. So generally speaking, oui)l find

great opposition to the development of community colleges, especially from weak pri-

vate institutions. Well, Florida did not have any of those so that was not a factor.

I think a third important fct was a university leadership was knowledgeable and

empathetic to community college growth and development. Doak Campbell, who as/the

president of Florida State University, had been the first executive secretary of the

American Association of Community Colleges and his own dissertation dealt with the

stated criteria for community college development which made him very knowledgable

and also sympathetic to junior colleges. John Allen who became acting president of

University of-Florida at this particular time, as the result of the death of the

president J. Hillis Miller, had also written a dissertation in New York State entitled

"Criteria for the Establishment of Junior Colleges." So that meant the twojiBBI presidents at this particular moment were individuals who had

both.experience and knowledge in the community college or junior college field and

were therefore sympathetic to its understanding of the need for these institutions.

In addition to that, the legislature had authorized the Board of Regents to conduct

a study designed to plan'S education for the state, Florida had very few public

institutions as well as very few private institutions and there was a great need to

develop a university system. This was being carried on by a group of individuals

brought in as consultants to the Board of Regents called the Board of Control at

that time, who were knowledgable aboutstv education around the country, who were

very familiar with the development of junior colleges in California and Illinois, AAJ3
Michigan in particular, and who therefore when they looked at their job *A-planning

higher education, recognized the fact that they had to have a strong development of

junior colleges along with the development of the university system. And they in

effect said to the jbi-u Legislature, we need this kind of--!- community

Page 4

college development and e don' think the universities ought to be involved in it

because our experience around the country indicate that univerpties dont do good

jobs of planning for community colleges, Chey're too interested in their own affairs

so therefore we suggest that you set up a separate body to do thab which is what the

Legislature did in 1955 in establishing the Community College Council. So the state

of Florida was in effect, ready for this from an educational viewpoint and I mentioned

the demographic growth that second area, but in terms of economic growth, Florida

was also ready for it because we did not have a very strong program anywhere in the

state which would prepare people for careers particularly in the health-related

areas and in the areas related to technological industry. So there was a great need
SLe. (. CA..-
ini:the state. I remember one of the early letters that Governor Collins received

was from the owner of Burdines in Miami. This is a large department store at one time

I suspect it was probably one of the most wealthy department stores in the state.

Others have developed since that time, but it was very influencial in terms of merchan-

dising in the southeastern part of Florida. The individual concerned, I )remem-

ber his name, it tast Burdine,lt had just come back from a trip to England

and he had been very intrigued by the fact that they had a mid-management program

to prepare people to become buyers and floor managers in department stores. He must

have visited Harrods over there or some of those big department stores in London and

he wrote to Governor Collins and said why don't we have an institution i do this

sort of job in Florida? Interestingly enough, Palm Beach Junior College had been

established in 1933 and was ready to do that kind of job, the owner of Burdine's

idn understand or ddn' recognize or sn familiar with that. When we pointed

it out to him in writing an answer to his letter for the governor, he became very

enthusiastic in terms of his support for the idea of junior college because this is

what he needed as he saw it to prepare people for mid-management positions in his

department store.

A: What aspects of the Florida system of community colleges are unique to this state

Page 5


J: I think our most unique feature in Florida has been the fact that the long range

plan was developed before the expansion steps began to be taken. This is sort of one

of those cases of they said it couldn't be done you know. When you talking about

establishing institutions in a number of places around the state and when you're-doing

this with a good deal of support from the state level and when the Legislature of

course is the body which makes the authorizations for this sort of development,(t'

very easy for this to become a pork-barrel operation so that people trade off, I'll

give you a junior college if you'll vote for my bill, sort of a thing. 4 Florida

I think was very fortunate in that this sort of thinking did not get into the commun-

ity college or junior college development,.Mthe reason it SLdit was because the

plan which was put into effect was a well-developed plan which was based on demographic

and other kinds of data that were authentic and proved the points that they were

designed to prove and because if you started tearing it apart then the whole thing

falls apart, youtcart make some decisions on evidence and other decisions on emotions

or trade-offs. So when the Legislature looked at it, it became very apparent very

quickly that they either had to buy the plan or they had to create another one of

their own and none of them wanted to get into the business of creating a brand new

plan and try to defend it when "a M .u it would be necessarily counter

to the evidence that had been collected up to that point. f3lg I thinks' "--ig-l M

(^"t f the uniqueness was in the fact that it was a well-planned, well-developed

basis, it hadmieS a group of lay citizens who were assigned the responsibility

for the development of the plan behind it. they were people who understood the plan

and who were in a position to defend it to other lay citizens so iVT t)wjust an

educational jargon. And thirdly it was laid out in a step by step manner so that

you could see that if you supported the establishment of a commur fy college in

Madison, Florida for example, (Ti was one of the first new ones, that there was a

place for a junior college in Avon Park at a later date and you would not be trading

Page 6

off, you ould be given away something permanently, in other words everybody

Q(d have to get in on the first go around of new institutions in order to be sure

that they would be adequately taken care of because the plan envisioned a state-wide

step by step expansion as rapidly as the Legislature and the people decided they

wanted it. I think tied into this was a third uniqueness in the plan and that is that

nothing happened without local initiative. The state n't say (ore going to have

a junior college in this place or that place, the state said according to our figures

and according to the information we have a junior college ought to be successful

in this county or that county. If you would like to do a local survey and corroborate

this and indicate your support for the idea then the state will take it and do its

share, but there had to be a local initiative in which the local people took an active

role in taking the first steps. I think-CBE-t Sa3ap, one final point I would make was

that the program was fortunate in that it was started under the auspices of county

school boards of public instruction. Some people drdn-l. like this idea and some felt

this made it*vfmSalus dominated by the secondary schools too much. And I suppose

there may have been some element of that domination but in retrospect I think most

anyone would agree that this was a positive sort of a domination. The public school

system was a parent so to speak of this new community college and it sort of helped

it during its period of gestation and early life so that by 1968 when it was cut off

and made into a separate district, the colleges were strong and could operate on their

own and they had been organized, they did have local support, and these were factors

which were important in any new social institution.

A: What did you emphasize most when developing the Florida master plan?

J: I think the thing that received the most emphasis was that this had to be locally-

oriented, that there had to be a local desire, a local willingness to participate

in doing the basic study. I think secondly, it was important that we used facts and

the collection of data from high school graduating seniors, the use of all the demo-

graphic data that was available, the collection and creation of new data where

Page 7

adequate data (Tn! >exist. Thesetwo things I think were most important, one that

it be done locally and secondly that we emphasize the factual development of it. I

think thirdly that the state was taking an active role would be another important

part of the concept. If there had not been an active state role then you probably

Cwoldnt ) have been able to do the first two things nearly as well. So the coordination

from the state level and then subsequently the relationship that they were able to

develop in terms of relationship particularly to the university system and also to

the local school systems was facilitated by the fact that there was a state leader-

ship role to be played.

A: Did the junior colleges have a credibility problem as institutions of higher education?

J: Certainly, I Q t think there's any question about that. In some instances the

credibility problem was of short duration and in other instances it may have been of

longer duration. Two particular areas I think and this has been true of community

college or junior college development all over the country V One of the group of people

you have to convince is high school teachers and high school counselors that it'

a good place for students to go to. As a matter of fact I remember in the case

of my own son graduating from the local high school here, Gainesville High School,

jlbS we had already talked about what he was going to do and he had agreed with me

that he ought to go Santa Fe Community College. I was enthusiastic about it and

so was heVfortunately there was no disagreement on our part at least that that was a

good place for him to continue his work. In any case however, the newspaper came out

several weeks after we had discussed this and it had a list of all the students

graduating from high school and those that were going to the University of Florida
-^5 r,^ ''1 _-_UJW_ _,,Co
were f'ororor 8 paragraphs and those going to Santa Fe wereci paragraphs and those

going to the up east colleges were another torr4 paragraphs, and those going to

Georgia Tech were P paragraph you know and scattered all around and I looked at the

article and I said something to Carl about this and he said, "Well Dad eFiJ-s` going

to happen next fall?" and I said most of those people will be going to Santa Fe


no matter what they say right now. And as it turned outhat' true because most of

the students did go to Santa Fe and as you probably recognize Santa Fe gets the.

majority of the students who continue on !i.>i -i S beyond high school here in

Alachua, Starke, and Bradford Counties at the present time. A few years helped the
4to o
colleges to overcome some of this lack of credibility because when the first Z or 3

students finish and go on, if they care to go on, or they go into jobs or whatever

they do, they become your major supporters at that point on. The credibility with

the universities is another kind of problem because the universities are in the saddle,

they can say we o) accept your credits or we will accept your credits. In our

instance in Florida, we were very fortunate in some of the leadership as I pointed
ITII-rL':1iV%,j Of
out earlier with the universities Mg1 Wb-,the presidential empathy for the idea.

One other person that I would really mention in connection with this is the registrar

at the University of Florida, Dick Johnsoht1/ Dick had the reputation around the

country as being a real tough cookie and as a result of that though he had a great

deal of credibility all over the country among the Registrar's Association. Dick

was also the kind of a man who respected scholarship and who respected organization

and when he had followed through on our plan for Florida's development, he became a

very strong convince adherent to the program. Of course he had had some good

experience with graduates of Palm Beach Junior College since 1935, he had good

experience with graduates of St. Petersburg Junior College since the early 1930s as

well and he had more recently had good positive experience with Pensacola Junior

College and Tacoa Junior College so he was not unfamiliar with junior college trans-

fers, however as we began to develop new institutions it was necessary for them to

have some sort of accreditation or recognition in order to assure graduates that they

would have some place to go without difficulty and it was important that the University

of Florida grant this sort of recognition. So in discussing this with Mr. Johnson

why he said why certain we'll acceptVthe University of Florida and he cleared it

through the powers that be here at the university. Then he did one more thing which

Page 9

was really very importantV he wrote a letter to the American Association of Collegiate

Registrars and Admissions Officers which puts out a journal each fall and told them

that the University of Florida would accept credits from the following institutions

and he named all the new institutions that we were building in Florida and so that

went into the record of the AACRAO fall bulletin. And that gave prestige that we could

not have obtained any other way. So the credibility wtezsser SSjA is often times a single individuals decision-making power and this instance Dick dohnsor -!
Q-. L 2 f ,A'-^ Z L '- -"
was very influential in that. might also be added though that John J. Tigert,

who had been president of the University of Florida in the late 1920s and early 1930's

had been a strong supporter of the establishment of Palm Beach Junior College and

St. Petersburg Junior College and had given them his written blessings, there are

letters in the files in which he says University of Florida will accept credit5from

those institutions when they were just beginning too. So the University of Florida

has really been a much stronger supporter for community colleges and getting them

started than a lot of people may realize. Over the years, Q been one of the

most potent influences in helpingVthat credibility we were talking about needing.

Credibility of course like that is valuable only so long as it remains positive

and it only remains positive when the colleges do a good job and so the result of

the colleges doing a good job is what maintains that credibility.

A: What are the future prospects of the system, regarding some areas such as growth,

the characteristics of the students, program developments, faculty unions, etc.?

J: r-TiT'sa big order now. bse Well first of all, people talk about college

enrollment dropping off and they talk about the fact that ejI. going to have fewer

high school graduates than Viyhad in the past and this is true. On the other hand

that since Florida continues to be a growing state it is not as true of Florida as

it is of other states. A recent study conducted by the Southern Regional Education

Board on predictions for the future and indicates that Florida as the only one of the

southeastern states will continue to grow and as a matter of fact they predict that

Page 4 (0

Florida college enrollment will increase by per cent between 1980 and 1985. That's\

a third. And so the action on the part of our Legislature,; particularly this year

where they cut back funds for the university because they expect a per cent drop

is just not being realistic because Florida has continued to grow, both in university

and community colleges and will continue to grow perhaps even more so in the community

colleges because the second thing the SREB predicts not only in Florida but in all

the southeastern states is that the portion of total enrollment that will be going

to community colleges will increase.Pt this is expected to increase from somewhere

around, seems like 24 or 25 per cent at the present time up to something like

3 or.40 per cent MEMM by 1985. Somewhere in that neighborhood at least. So growth

will continue, the community collegehowever will probably have more growth serving

students that are not now served by higher education than they will in serving

students that are now served by higher education because the universities and private

colleges that offer freshmen and sophomore work will be in high competition to main-

tain their enrollments and will often be in such strong competition that they may

take students that might otherwise go to a community college in many instances. The

community college needs to give its particular attention on the other hand to the
;:jR C-WXAL r
minority groups who are not serving blacks'in any of the southern states up to the

proportion that they have in the populations this is an area which needs specific

attention this is also supportive of our statistics from the same SREB study. We

are not .serving women in the same proportion which they exist in the total population

so(h a another area. We are not serving older people, that is those pastff? an
C- 4:' -T-RkVw)S OF
S ad ., anywhere near in proportion to their needs or i n,-.-asaag- f a'

"am- rS tS their proportion Of the population. Wre not serving some

people that have very special needs such as those that have deficiencies in their

education and must either correct these deficiencies or live a somewhat educationally

crippled life for the rest of their lives and this is not practical from many view-

points including just a plain old cost viewpoint. 1- people are not educated, (j

Page fI

cost5more money for the rest of us to keep them fed and housed and clothed than if

they are educated. So the community colleges, in Florida in particular, will be

giving more attention to those types of students that they have not been serving

adequately previously. Now let's see, in terms of program I think we will find more

emphasis upon programs related to occupationsV careers and providing people with

skills for work. These will also be made available for people who have already

finished baccalaureate degrees for example they will be coming back to community-

colleges to get nursing degrees or other kinds of degrees that are related to something

that they would like to do now that they either want to change careers or iemmciili.

have to shift because of lack of employment in their present careers. Other areas

of programs will include personal development, I hope we will learn somewhere along

the line to do a better job of helping people learn to relate to other people and

I(j i think this just happens, I think it takes education to help this happen.

We should be very concerned about the changes in our nuclear family situation and

it might be a good idea to teach some people to be parents for a change instead of

just letting that happen catch as catch can, a great job for community colleges to

assume. Maintaining an individuals health is another important area, particularly

as people become older and become more dependant upon good health services and as

these become more expensive, the maintenance of proper health becomes something that

individuals can do for themselves without outside help in all instances. Managing

na s dfil t personal financial affairs s a matter which needs educational atten-

tion and we have not done a very good job with that at any level of education up to

the present time. So you can see in the whole area of personal development, general

education, there are lots of things that need to be given specific attention in

junior college, because that is an institution that remains in the community. We

sometimes think that recreation is an extra and therefore we ought to not give much

attention to\it from an educational point of view'but I think that any psychologist

will point out\that people do not live very well unless they have adequate recreational

Page 12

activities and some people do not know how to use their leisure time and yet we provide

them with more and more of it so use of leisure time in a productive, recreation is

another area which we need to give particular attention to. And you can go through

a lots of areas of human life that you can find community colleges as a agency for

making contributions to the total health and well-being of the community. Let's see

the other question you asked about faculty development?

A: The unions, where is the faculty going? Maybe not unions, but things like that.

J: Well of course the past four or five years has seen a particular development in the

areas of collective bargaining as far as education is concerned. Florida has had

more instances of votes that have been turned down than any other single state. The

development of faculty unions in the community colleges has been in Florida about a

fifty-fifty proposition, that is about half of those that have voted have voted for

agents, and about half of them have voted against agents. So this is a little unusual

as far as national picture is concerned. The picture around the country certainly

indicates more emphasis on collective bargaining. It certainly indicates more concern

on the part of faculty to use collective bargaining as a way of achieving some of the

things which they want. Which incidentally is not just salary or fringe benefits, it

involves more active participation in the actual governments of the college. For

example, in a couple of studies we-have done, J.-amMa-S one just

finished this quarter, indicates that the extent to which faculty have faith and trust

in the administration is a good indicator of whether they will be interested in even

voting on a collective bargaining or not. It they have a high degree of faith and

trust, they do not care about voting, if they have a lower degree of faith and trust,

they do want to vote. And I suppose, although we have not really checked the colleges

that voted for collective bargianing, but I suspect the level of trust in those insti-

tutions would probably be the lowest of the group. So 1 think college administrations

and that includes the board of trustees as well as the professional people, need to

be very concerned about how the faculties that work for them regard them in terms of

Page 13

faith and trust and acceptance of their credibility. In addition to that, the other

thing that keeps appearing is the desire of the faculty to have some sort of influence

on the selection of the administrators in the college. No one had suggested yet at

least that the faculty have a vote on who they want as president, not on that sort of

a basis, but they want input into the establishment of the criteria, they want input

into the opportunity to interview people, flBiMrMtte" (SIDE 2 TAPE 1 BEGINS)

Theyexpanded during the late 1950s and all through the 1960s, there was a great need

for faculty members and community colleges begged, borrowed, or stole them wherever

they could. They got some from high schools, they got some direct from business, they

got some from toher colleges and universities, there was a lot of movement from

community college to community college. Then we hit a period of reduced resources

and a reduction of the rapidity of growth and faculties had become somewhat static.

Some colleges have not changed or added any new faculty members in some departments

for several years in a row for example. This presents a very specific problem, the

desire of any administration or anyone concerned about the improvement of the college

to maintain the kind of enthusiasm and also real professional improvement that is

desirable in an institution. So faculty development becomes a most important activity

because it is the only way in which the college can really keep alive have any zing

and zip in it. Florida is fortunate in this regard because in 1968 we began what was

called the Faculty and Program Development program and this involved an extra alloca-

tion of funds to each individual college which they could spend under certain developed

criteria for faculty and program development.
individual faculty development, such as helping them continue advanced work, a limited

amount has been used in that direction. A lot has been used in terms of faculty travel

in getting acquainted with other institutions, a lot has been used to bring in special-

ized consultants to help faculty develop programs and a good deal has been used to

give faculty time off to do special studies, which are designed not only for personal

improvement of the individual faculty member but also for the whole improvement of the

Page 14

college. This has been a pioneering effort nationwide and Florida has demonstrated

that these kinds of funds are productive and can produce a better college in the long

run. As a matter of fact most pf our programs for student development, that is the

programs that are designed to help people correct their deficiencies, have come about

through some special studies done in each of the colleges with its own faculty in

trying to develop the best kind of program they can for individual students, develop-

ment of their basic skills. That is just one kind of example of the sort of things

that are going on around the state with the Faculty and Program Development Fund.

A: Did you have any philosophical reasons for undertaking the master plan development?

J: Well you need to be aware, and I think you are, of a couple of things. First, I

graduated from Palm Beach Junior College and I knew full well that I was graduating

in the depression years that if the opportunity had not been there, financially I

could not have afforded to go away for four years. As it worked out, those two years

at Palm Beach Junior College, driving a school bus and saving money and working in

the A&P and all sorts of good things, you saved enough money to go on and take care of

your last two years and that was the way I worked it out. Secondly, at the time that

the invitation came to work as the director of the community college council, which

was 1955, I had finished a ac-e gre in 1950 which was a state plan for junior

colleges and a master's thesis which had been an analysis of a historical development

of community colleges in Floridaso it was just sort of laid out there that I had

an interest in it from a personal viewpoint, I had a scholarly interest in it from

my own scholarly development and I guess you could easily say I had an emotional

commitment to :--l-e-%* the idea -- --- of making education more

generally available. I guess I am basically egalitarian in my philosophy of what

education ought to be and do for people and I believe that education is a right for

everyone and not a privilege for a few. So it was sort of a natural step to accept

an invitation to put into effect a plan which you had already developed as a scholarly

pursuit and not too many people get a chance to put their dissertation into effect

Page 15

anyway so that was a challenge in itself.

A: Could you comment on your reasons for changing you career'direction to become a

university professor around 1968?

J: Well, I een a university professor before so it was really a return to the unviersity

in a sense. It seems like 5 s always a good idea to quit when you are ahead if you

are in a poker game and you have just won the big pot and they will let you get out

of there, you are a lot better off than if you play two or three more hands and lose

half the pot in the next three hands. So it just seemed like an appropriate time when

the Legislature had approved the last college that was in the state plan, when they

had passed one of those nice resolutions which they print up and engross very prettily

for you, congratulating you on your work for the state and all that sort of thing. It

just seemed like a good time to sort of take a look and see if you want to continue

anymore. So I did, and decided it was probably a good time to quit while I was that

far ahead and when the plan had been fully implemented and I was sort of anxious to get

back to the university anyway. Ken Wiles came along about that time and said that

time for you to come back to the university and here is an opportunity.ollrof course

the university does not offer those kind of opportunities every time you turn around

so that is another thing you better grab while you have a chance' is the attitude

you need to take about those sort of things. And then here was no question but what
you need to t aY -/F f0,(o a,,,1, t
the development of the state under the leadership of Governor Kw--z was an irritant.
1 / r
He had vetoed the financial program for the community colleges in the April session,

or June of 1967 and he had to call a special session because the local boards of

'trustees and local people put the pressure on him, in fact Imnot so sureSjhahat

that was what he planned anyway, it may have been that that was part of a plan to

vefo it so that he could get a special sessionVcalled back into session. In any case,

we had to go into a extra session in order to get enough money to operate the community

colleges. And that had been a hectic session so I was a little tired of it at that

point anyway. It just seemed like a good time to take advantage of an opportunity to

Page 16

go back to the university where I had intended to go one day anyway and ^feY chance to

stop when you had really taken the final step in implementing a plan that you have set

out to put inl9 effect to start with. It sort of like, there are two or three phases

to any building job and different people do different phases and do them better than

others so I think I finished my phase and was ready for somebody else to pick it up at

that point.

A: How are you continuing to serve the community college system both state-wide and

nationally as a university professor?

J: aai M one of the things that Dr. Wiles and I talked about when I first came back

was establishing the institute of higher education which we did<.agthen shortly after

that we began to conceive the idea of the research council and the establishment of

the Florida Community Junior College Inter-institution Research Council became the next

step in trying to provide specific services for the community college program in Florida.

".This is avcesnt-i of fifteen or sixteen of our twenty-eight colleges and we have been
lAho hoS
under the work for Dr. John Knickens been doing a very excellent job in providing a

good deal of services to these institutions that are members of the council as well as

to the institutions that are not members in a more indirect way but still being served

by them. And I also do a good deal of work through the council with colleges around

the state for example when the fall term opens, I am in the process of making a couple

of workshops and a couple of speeches to colleges during that period of time and occa-

sionally make speeches at other times during the year. We provide special evaluative

services for colleges when they request them, so there is a good deal of opportunity

to work with individual colleges and individual people in the colleges. More important-

ly to me though however, is the working with graduate students in terms of preparing

them to work in the community colleges. I must admit that I get a little discouraged

sometimes in the last two or three years in finding jobs for all of them that finish

their degrees because the jobs have not been that plentiful and so therefore some of

our graduates have not really been able to serve the way they ought toYhowever I had

Page 17

a phone call from one of our doctoral students who had just graduated three years ago

and he was just appointed acting provost of one of the campuses of Broward Community

College this week so some people are getting ahead very rapidly as a matter of fact.

So (t some matter of pride to see that happening to. As far as nationwide is con-

cerned, I have been able to spend a good deal of time working with colleges all over

the countryas a matter of fact I guess'je been in some probably thirty-five or forty

of the fifty states, at one time or another. In the class I am teaching this summer,

each student has a project in which he takes one state and examines their system of

higher education and makes an analysis of the program in that state for higher education.

And there are twenty people in the class and I was interested in noting last night as

I was looking over the group that I have worked in every one of the twenty states so

I really had not counted all this up but I suspect that it is somewhere near thirty-

five or forty states I have had some chance to work in and probably somewhere in the

neighborhood of 300 or 400 community colleges around the country. So that gives me

a lot of opportunity to work in lots of different places in lots of different ways.

We do a lot of long range planning. I work with people from fm

,Laa. gratIre g ~ ._.o-- Pennsylvania State University, Florida

State University, and University of Arizona and several other people that we get to

see quite often and these kinds of opportunities to work with individual colleges

around the country.

A: Discussing now the unique relationship between the local areas of the state in relation

to funding and control.

J: Since our original program in Florida was heavily-oriented toward local control and

to a great degree local support, although the minimum foundation program in Florida

which was applied to the community colleges had 75 per cent of it was state funds

really from the beginning. When they moved in 1968 to total state support, there were

many who feared this meant the end of local control and this probably may be the

reason \ that everybody is sensitive about this because they feared that this IS

Page 18

what is going to happenthe/ are getting all the money from the state and somebody

is going to control them outside the local community. But so far Florida is the only

state in the union that has maintained the total state funding and total local control

as far as day to day operations. As a matter of fact, several years ago the university

presidents were saying very loudly why can't you give us the freedom you give the

junior college presidents to operate our institutions. Since that time the university

presidents have obtained some more freedoms than they had at that time four or five

years ago, but even if that, the local control that has been the feature of Florida's

junior college development is unique among the states that have state funding. Vir-

ginia has a local advisory committee but it is not actually in as much position of

control as the Florida local boards of trustees are. Minnesota, Massachusetts, Conn-

eticut, Tennessee, Alabama, all of these states have state control. Monies are pro-

portioned from the state level, they have little or no local funds available, and

none of them actually have local advisory or local boards of trustees that have the

authority to do the things that our boards in Florida can do.