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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida.
HFE 3a
subject: H.J.F. 2A ^-.( / .. ,,
interviewer: Arthur White
sj
W: Can you recall the details of the February 29 confrontation
between Kirk, Christian, yourself and Chuck Perry were there?
That was when they had the fight in the office.
F: Okay, now, I wasn't in on that. That was done, I'd say, that
wasn't....
W: All right, don't worry.
F: That was downstairs in the....
W: -r this is it, it 4--s recorded in the newspaper that....
F: -i-ay-, Frank c__PI/_ / was outside the door and heard it.
WV, / (//'r
F; But I wasn't in there.
W: The newspaper recorded that you came out.
F: I came out of our office, that was after....
W: All right, what happened?
F: Okay, we were in Christian's office.
W: Okay.
F: But the confrontation took place)(static on tape) the fight took
place in the governor's office, or downstairs in Perry's.,..,
W: And he didn't like that, he was excluded.
F: Right. My only involvement was that when Christian came back to
HfA vlV-
the office, we wereasome kind of a meeting in there, and I had
-11c, pe^ We, > Leve-
a, __\_ _6_q. out there, and I went out and told them
that (break in tape) okay, I went out and told them something
or other. I forgot, I wasn't, I wasn't in the, in fact, I forgot)
refresh me what the meeting was about, what were we doing in
there? We had the doors closed.
HFE 3a 2
sj
A KL /CK1T #0W Ol
W: 4b9YUYv A 2'were preparing the final compromise, you had worked 4- ro
the legislative aides with the other cabinet members that they
would agree with it and Kivk'S Mvav\ showed up and said that he
hadn't been in on the negotiations and you can't go through this
without us seeing this andAvoices became heated, some shouting joi 1
, on in there. d Perry came out with his arm around, with his
arm around Christian and said, "I apologize for losing my temper
there butAshould include the governor," or something like that.
This, this confrontation, February 29....
F: VV p that didn't take place, A4 that didn't take place in my
presence in Christian's office, at least if it did, I don't
remember.
W: All right, you told me about some of ('tC Ji\ ,v l i 6
F:^or TtOK, knowJ-h
F: Yeah. hat w .-.- -y-,at, well there was an argument, you know,aK-[
/l--a,, with the governor.
W: Okay.
F: Oh, wait a minute, you talking....
W: Don't worry about it, it's only for me.
F: Trying, trying, still trying to remember, I'm still trying to
remember who was in the office with us. I remember Frank Capadin
and all the newspaper guys sitting outside.
/IV
W: Who's Frank Capadin?
F: Capadin, he's the Tribune guy who wrote the stories you read.
Did you read a Tribune story?
W: I wrote, I read twenty stories.
F: "okay. And I got a blank as to what we were doing in there.
W: You were discussing th.s-resolutions for the compromise. Something
HFE 3a 3
sj
W: about professional negotiating, they/encouraged this, state
department would work towards....
1o/No NTo tO W-l) r PO/Nl9 To HELPR
F: I think we were4running, did we run To FTback to work?
That kind of stuff, we I/P/V'7 T
/oT c// 'ISTT/,-
W: Christian really was hot. I mean, a / AChristian was hot,
Perry was hot, the governor was hot.
V: Okay, we went over =-he-, we took over the, okay, let me, let me
focus on a whole bunch of stuff that you don't have then during
W: ALL RI-HT II
that period of time./l The law, I guess it was a law, ad a little
T/T7' HAP
used piece of law everybodyAforgotten2 gave the commissioner of
education the responsibility to call meetings. In fact, he was the
only one who could call an emergency meeting, the governor couldn't
call it. And we exercised it and we organized the board of education,
cabinet members without his invol-p,we'd call the meetings and
"HIAJ -4kfi 7TH/-<.
make 4+em-come, you know, t y kind of li4-....
W: You, you wouldn't include the governor at all?
F: Well, we'd include him, but we were exercising so uh, we wouldn't
check with him in advance, you know, we would just go ahead and
call the meetings.
W: Why'd you do that?
F: Because he wasn't a cooperating member, you know...
"Christian, Christian took over. Christian was the school leader.
in that period of time. We had some trouble with some members
of the cabinet.
W: Who'd you have trouble with?
T 7/nj -ho tevyrC(.
F: SSr /Lbn/) Bud Dickinson was worried, uh, most of the trouble
we had was with the state treasurer Broward Williams at the time.
HFE 3a 4
sj
W: Why'd you have trouble with him?
F: He was, kept y -iugi tetl\lv MS 6 5fVYV76LiwCoolidge and the
garbage strike nd he was worried about the, politics and q bigZr
at battle with the cabinet was Christian always saying ye*-know,
,I i'1r T !si r
the hell with politics you know, good governed good politics.
/0) pV wtllf 7- 'LL ,TA e I/
;e was right, tih' politicsAeeek-care of itself. And we did a lot
of this stuff, as I remember now, in Tom Adams office, I'd
forgotten about that.
W: Tell me about Tom Adams. L /H, HFARRS(O 1 ,
F: A lot of his work was done....
W:,,. Gives-Tom Adams' credit.
F: Okay, a lot of this resolution hammering out was done with
sac t' :1:,j T' Y-yfe"
Johnny C,. and myself and Jim ArT 7, JfsSA bout that, and T- or -
u.)Do e vW,.aa t Y- s in Tom Adams conference room. We'd go, we'd
go around there to meet and 4e-P lunch and work and talk and
then we'd check with the people out in the state, you know,
legislators, and that kind of thing. Sorry, I'd forgotten
about that.
W: I'm interested.l..ow
F: That's 4nqw we did the aides stuff, right around Tom Adams office,
I forgot all about that. Olko .
W: All right now, who was there, the aides? Now what's this aides
business? What happened with the aides, and who are the aides,
and how's this....
1^m +.: nm l rm -yY +o w-n en LP
F: Wll, T ad -awe with Jim A thelf representing
and:4 cIti'" b Lrc_,
Tom Adams, you know, W : and I don't remember who
the other people were, who represented Bud Dickinson, and....
HFE 3a 5
sj
W:A /here were aides for each cabinet member. Give me....
F: To keep in touch, right.
W: Now these aides worked, they'met daily, is that correct?
F: Uh puh.
W: How often did they meet ? Did they....
F: AW* didn't meet but a couple of times, -a-d we got, for a long time,
it was- strictly Christian all by himself.
W: What did he do by himself, did you...?
F: You know, he did, when he, he the decision to keep schools open
we know was Christian moving first. Uh, okay, it was his problem,
A^
it was a school problem. Traditionally, the members of the cabinet
-7- %WAR,
would swing around, you know, it's your main problem, you're the
expert, and they'd just naturally let him lead.
W:/ILRight.
F: You know. Okay, Christian normally is an aggressive man anyway.
He's very direct. You know, he wants to act, which is why we did
so well in that thing, because he just, you know, he acted. And
he just moved in and took the leadership position. And we had
trouble with the cabinet, the cabinet was more reticent, generally/
to go as far as fLWP'P9want to go. They were more, they were more
worried about the politics of, of looking like they were pro teachers.
Now they, you know, they were sympathetic and understanding,
and you know, they, they didn't have....
W: This is, you're talking in relationship to the compromise now?
F: Yeah.
W: Not in relation to keeping the schools open.
F: No, to the, to the compromise. The school open bit was a normal
HFE 3a 6
sj
F: reaction 4B everybody, every good red-blooded American takes
you know, keep the school open, no problem there, but when we
I/NTO
started working t the area of trying to settle it, then you
deal with subtleties, and /f1iAYCS! Okay, that point, there
were people who were afraid, I remember some, I remember Broward
Williams) especially) was afraid of looking like pro-labor or
too pro-teachers. But Christian was ,Ahe didn't thatAconcern
him. And 4 had to push and prod, you know, just like we lost
the board members at the end. We went to that big meeting at
Hyden Burns Auditorium and the board members wouldn't go along
with the compromise.
W: Tell me about this, I don't knowA what's this?
F: You don't have anything about that? We had a, called a meeting
of the school board members,'FLE Sneri;cnce,.At some stage in
the compromise, at some stage near' the end, and met; in.Hayden
Burns Auditorium and Christian presented what he ',the-proposal,
A/P TrHA TKII/P OF
the reason to take them back/land they didn't support it.
W: The cabinet waildn't?
F: That didn't show up in the clippings? Not the cabinet, the
school board members didn't go along with it.
W: The school board members didn't go along with it.
F: That didn't show up?
W: It might have, I've looked through most of them, it's ...
F: I remember he and I walked, we went down../E? -oF781
W: ....certain ones were missing, and I didn't get to look.T /ou vl /flL..
F: Y-e they didn't support his, now our, Christian's position
was temperance, you know....
HFE 3a 7
sj
W: You ought to take, take them back.
F: Not vindictive. Keep the schools open.
W: But that was part of the deal.
F: Keep the schools open, kepfp= t eir---- open, but save education,
you know, no point destroying people. They're trying, they did
what they thought they had to do, it's over, they were wrong, come
LE TS
on back and4build it up again. That was his basic position.
Had we had the governor's support, it would have b-een somewhat
euT
easier. A/See the governor was an irritant, and acting as an
irritant, other members of the cabinet, the school board members
knew they had somebody to, you know, to, an ally.
15 TrM-
W: AWhy ve* you think they did that? To go along with 'the governor?
F: No, but there was somebody out there taking their position, they
didn't you know, they weren't completely lone. I, you know,
psychologically, as long as you know somebody out there thinks
like you, it strengthens your position.
W: Uh huh. Okay, what about this fight? You kept telling me about
WAN TfD r
a fight you w-en tell me about the strike. What fight was this,
was this the fight I just told you?
F: Yeah, must be the same one.
W: What do you remember about it/, 7hat I didn't remember.?
F: Christian being so damn, being mad and coming back to the office,
he was so angry, so that's the same thing, he was so angry that
when I walked in the office and he said, you know, "Let me be by
myself for a while." And I left and he was just.....Claude Kirk
C-TIhn py m. Yu k=L
had, he was Jai- "telA -ssct=r "Christian personally mad. You know,
HFE 3a 8
sj
F: you, have you, you ought to interview Claude Kirk, ye-knew,
^,4nt A A'o^T But he used to get Floyd just burning up mad,
inside angry. And he came back over, just boiling one day, I thought
he was going to hit somebody.
W: Now this is Christian?
F: Yeah.
W: He was so mad. What day was this, what happened?
F: I don't know.
W: You don't know what happened?
F: /One of those arguments with Kirk.
W: Just one of them.
F: I'm going to leave you hanging, maybe, maybe Johnny remembers better.
W4 Who?
F: Maybe Johnny Saey remembers better thTegh7Hn
W: All right.
F: You know, because you get,..frankly, why we're doing this thing
because so much of this stuff has woven into one day after another
I forgotten what we dtP I'd forgotten about the, all that time
we4- at Tom Adams'Soffice.
W: This gets into the, government by, by aides, by cabinet aides.
F: That's a standard thing,Ahappens now more than ever. Uh, you
can't, in preliminary stages of anything, it isn't always good
4L
business o tie up the principe-, the cabinet member or the
governor. See, you know, for days and days of stuff when somebody
who knows how he thinks can go through that kind of stuff. You
THAT 7- 7/THf PAFi, JLO y /ou HAVE ro
know, it's ar business .-ema-ed-t-epeace talks.A t/i argue
about the circle, the shape of the d- =, it's a waste of time
HFE 3a 9
sj
F: for the, the head man. You know, other people can do that. They
know what the argument is. And you don't bring the big man in
until you get to final decision making. So a lot of the work
was done by the aides.
W: Well, how did the teacher strike effect the ongoing government
around here in terms of aides, an-din terms of every, how did it
A-
,effect everything, did the aides meet more often, did they
concentrate more on the teachers and on education than--was
typical, of the cabinet relationships? Ff{'KS L/ V I gives
me the idea that the cabinet aides met more frequently, and who
was the cabinet aide for education? You were?
T7."',- FI'ORr^.L./ rft-f tYAs
F: WXIl, we didn't have, it wasn't(\no formal.,,.
W: Did you handle most of this yourself?
F: No, we had Johnny and I, and everybody, you know, it was all in
together. There was no formal kind of a meeting, and how many
members, I don't remember, cause 1_ was just on the outside
of it. But you.had a whole bundh of meetings, but there was
no reaT-'-formaT o setup.
W: Was it more meetings than usual because of the strike with other
cabinet aides?
F: Well, I can't, I couldn't, it wouldn't prove anything, I can't
I can't hgQeas/C ld against anything.
W: Well, the problem is you have a crisis like this.
F: Yeah, the main subjectiof conversation in Tallahassee and all over
the state for those three or four weeks was education.
W Right. Well, did this change the role of..TH.
F: That's all anybody talked about, and all Christian had to do was
HFE 3a 10
sj
F: walk into the press room and then wham, we had a big press
conference. Everything anybody said abbut education was news
during that whole period of time. We had press conference after
press conference. I got the press mad at me one day because
Christian didn't want to do a whole bunch of stuff on television
d t-oisf- seo-t (o r L
and I had to take the rap for it. A/hey gave me a -eta3-e
taft-)w-. (C0W 1 LckUClte I
W: What was this about, tell me about it?
F: Just, just something that, you know.
W: He wouldn't talk on television?
F: He didn't want to go back and do something all over again on
T.V. that day, he was tired and the T.V. people get paid by the
minute, you know, by time slot.rjgot angry, and I took the rap
for it. But from, to get back to your main question, education
and the strike dominated the newspapers, it dominated everybody's
action, that's all we did all day long.
W: What does this mean from an insider's point of view? What did this
dominance mean? What did it mean in terms of your routine, in
terms of the routine of cabinet aides, cabine meetings?
F: WellB you're kin-d of diseoriontea ^i -^b-_ tpc,) three weeks
that's all you do. No different than during legislature, you
move into a special package and do something, one thing for a
couple of months.
W: And all the cabinet did was talk about education then?
F: That was the main topic,.the main concern. We had meetings and
meetings and meetings. We had cabinet meetings, board of education
meetings, which normally you only hold once every week, now once
HFE 3a 11
sj
F: every two weeks. It would be interesting to look up the records),. l
ftl we had ,three or four in the same week sometimes. And we
would call them, now that I remember, by letter and the last
letter would go to the governor, you know, and we never checked
his schedule to see whether he could be there. Uh, we just
operated without him.
W: Don't you think that hampered communications?
F: No, because he had, he didn't want to be a part of it. I can't
remember one single contribution the governor made constructively,
toward the solution of the strike. Not one.
W: We'll ask some of these questions then. How did the aides deal
with the strike, I guess you answered that.
&E- H F V/r
F: Well that that's not really important.to the....
W: Well, you see, you have to make a case. You know the ordinary
routine of government, I don't know that. ave to make a case
that this thing did something in terms of the routine of the
office. I mean, people were screwing around. C F TR.A atmosphere.
F: Not really. People in the office, in the department who were
I4lf-i^-^ f ONLY A/BQVc7
act.-il.y involved, wa 4 =t three or four people, you see now,
you're dealing with the commissioner and his deputy, Johnny Seay,
uh, myself and two or three other people who are going to get
real angry when I can't remember who they are. You're dealing with
a handful of people. I think we had our attorney was involved all
the time. Who was our attorney then? Rufus?
W: Erkslaven (?) said that the number of aide meetings increased under
this stress of thi teacher's strike.
F: Well, it still wouldn't be significant.
HFE 3a 12
sj
W: Well, none of this is significant, you've got to create an
atmosphere, you're fitting in a puzzle. In other words, there's
small pieces and big pieces. This is a small piece. You can,
as you're developing a paragraph, you can say that state government
was just completely overcome by the concern with the teacher
strike Aides were meeting daily, you know what I mean?
F: No question, that you can see,'c'an say that. You know, fine,
you know, the board of education met on a, you know... 0F// T ,.
ir
W: I've got to document so your interview would do it.
F: Yeah, well I don't know if it's daily, but they, we met, you
know, lots of times.
W: More than usual?
F: Yeah, I think so. You're right about the dominating, that,
that was the dominant th-i4--, that's all we did, we came in in the
morning, well what happened at night, what's the latest, 'you
know.
W: Wll,4 dominant is apparent/lthe topic sentence. Now I've got to
develop a paragraph, I've got to tell how, how did this, you
know, I've got to show color within the scheme.
F: Wh, but you know, what you've got to understand is that the
government went on and the public educationAstill going on.
A lot of people in the department were not involved.
W: Yeah, 130 people, only four or five were involved.
F: You see, it's not a thing that you share, you know, youe't rgaa
o Cq'f have
have to,A f staff meetings you sar .r/now we had our Monday
morning meetings and we would share with our top staff every
Monday about where we were. But it's not a thing that you involve
HFE 3a 13
sj
F: lots of people in. It was basically, you know,Atop level
commissioners operation.
W: Okay.
F: My involvement, you know, was a P.R. kind of thing.
W: Oh. How do you think you're doing, is it coming back at all?
F: What?
W: The strike and the atmosphere.
F: Y/ah, a little bit, yeah.
W: Okay.
F: You want to give me a truth serum?
W: (chuckles) It's kind of interesting) /he '68 billjpassed>
You had one for the senate and one for the house. You said you
developed them?
F: Department of education. We developed)',.i.
W: Who was at, who were the principle people involved?
HA^,
F: Okay, we asked-Bob Mann was in the house, and Lawton Chiles and
Wilbur Borden, senate. Both came to us and asked us to develop
bills for them with large amounts of money in them. Uh, our man,
I guess Fred Schultz, you know, you always weant -te&=c ev.
Griseat leaving out somebody. Butfhe department cooperated with
the house and senate both in working -e legislation.
W: Who actually authored it? Who made up the bill?
F: T771F Oif^Q^t
W: The amounts of money?
F: The amounts of money were set bylegislators, they said we want
to do this.'
W: Who was the legislators?
HFE 3a 14
sj
F: You know, like Wilbur Boyd i for instance said, and this you
can't really use, you know, he said, "I want a pay raise bill
T wA1YT 7-O
for the,Aput enough money, give us an outside number." an3ukrm
T'PON'T A'A'"/W D'l It h v\
like4$15 0,d'Q.0 extra money. He said "I want to do better for
the teachers than the F.E.A. did) /Work out a program that's
better than the F.E.A. raise/ so that they got to support us."
t'//AT's 'r'OAa WrtN 7
W:A AZ-!using that/ that's good stuff. 0 Pho said that?
IT w4t/r
F:4 Wilbur Boyd, who was chairman of the education committee.
W: So they wanted to top the F.E.A., comparing it with 1967?
F: No, what's, I think what the F.E.A. request was, I rpatB the
F.E.A. was asking for something. They had a request for a teacher
pay raise, and the senate bill was deliberately designed to
exceed the F.E.A., which I think we did. Uh, that part is in
house dealing with legislature, and well, too much of that
can't be used because uh, that exposes.the technique, now, too
much of that can't be used. I
W: Exposes the technique? What do you mean? That's what I intended
to. Pa.
F: No, but the way which we operate with the legislature can't
be too germane. TO TH/IS
W: It's germane because it, how, Itgot to work this out, Howard, -T '-2',
F: I mean, you know, if you're going to deal with the strike you
got to deal with, that's a secondary deal. The real significant
part about the legislative part is that the house and senate both
were, were really, they were determined to provide lots of money
-t)&yci)X5 VIc
for education in that special session. )Xt/7a question about it,
you know, the bars were down, they wanted to go and do lots of
HFE 3a 15
sj
W1,' 01W'>. 7* .lK/ .-,
F: great things.A And we developed some great programs for them.
W: Okay, fA great programs came out of certain kinds of objectives,
and the objective was to bring the F.E.A. over so that they had
to support the bill and couldn't strike. The F.E.A. was strike-
minded.
F: They were doing....
W. Okay.
F: Education friends, people that were favoringceducation. We wee
TRI EP
t ytig to do things in the regular session.
W: That's a major concern.
F. Okay, now, nowihad the governor's commission report, you see, and
the governor's commission recommendation, and that gave them
the governor's edge, now, and the governor couldn't say any more,
you know, veto bills, veto bills, veto bill, like he did in
'67. And we had a governor's commission report, which was far
reaching, you know, okay, so they did in the special session
what they would have done in the regular session, ef they did,1T
I think,Abigger doses. And put together, asked us to put together
packages of education which met every conc(dvable need, and
weDv)A caught up on things that we hadn't done in years. Now, what
we did, we .framed it around the governor's commission report,
we went through the governor's commission report and tried to make
sure that everything the governor's committee had recommended was
in legislation somewhere so that the governor couldn't say, so
that we could say, this is your bill, you can't veto it, you see,
'cause here's the things you recommended.
W: So you were working both ends against each other, you were saying
HFE 3a 16
sj
W: on the one hand that we concluded, Boyd wanted to say, I"veincluded
so'much money for education, I've topped the F.E.A. request, or
at least come close. So that draws them in.
F: No question about Wilbur, Wilbur wanted to do better than the
F.E.A. so that Phil Constans, with whom he had good relations, now,
Wilbur and Phil got along good, they, theX was always conversation
with thet. He wanted to do better just to, to, soAthey couldn't
strike. Not maliciously, just so that heawould have no reason
7-o
Yo-er see t-e- strike.
W: Well, yeah, you don't want the....
F: Well, Wilbur would have been pro-education, was pro-education
all the time.
W: The other side was to bring Kirk in by paraphrasing the strategies
of his own commission so he can't....
F: Right, using as much as possible things that his own commission
recommended, right.
W: (e f5 fIOA the house....
F: ife.6 SeCovA 'PAf s45my strategy, but don't put that in.
W: What was your strategy?
F: Well, that was, that was my idea, was to put the governor's committee
there. C(lh4 this was the legislative, this was the way the
legislature worked.
PoHyr You
W:A See how interesting that is?
F: Well, you can't do that because legislature's got-to be the legislature.
Y; yuR r oK- ....
It no-longer, it becomes theirs once you, once you....
W: I'm an educator, I've got to inform people how things work, I
can't spend my time covering.
HFE 3a 17
5sj
F: No, once it's theirs, it becomes their's.
W: Well, that's fine, but they've got to get their ideas from someone,
they Kdon't work in a vacuum, like you go downstairs, they're,
they're operating in a thousand areas of concern in this state,
they're not experts in any of those areas.
F: No, but this was, this was strategy. Anyway, go ahead, all right.
W: I've got some other ideas on strategy. Might as well give me
yours. Why was a ten mill limit placed on the house bill?
F: Okay, now, that, that's Fred Schultz's program. Fred Schultz,
who was speaker of the house, see, who was speaker of the house
that session, Fred Schultz, who was a strong education man from
Jacksonville ran for the senate, who was speaker of the house....
W: Turlington was speaker of the house.
F: Turlington was speaker of the house during, he was, Fred came
^a4/ him. Okay, Fred was a very powerful man. Fred has always
had an interest in low property taxes. The session earlier,
we had buttons that said,..what did I do with those things?
Homeowners relief. I had one till just lately. They wore little
buttons saying,:yo know, tax relief for homeowners. There
was a big movement on for lower property taxes. And the idea
j7/ f T T^X ^'y
was, what they did wasAutting in all this state aid in education;
to balance it off, they put in a, a cap on the amount of local
money you could raise for education. You with me? You know, You
"f some....
W: It was a twenty mill limit until you did that.
F: We had twenty mill and they dropped it to ten. And in every case
except for Hillsborough, there-was so much more money put in that
HFE 3a 18
sj
F: it more than made up for the ten, you see, so we were, in addition
to providing new money for the school, we had made a state
committ2ent moving away from a property tax which was in individual
counties into a state general funding pool out of general revenue.
Like we raised the sales tax, didn't we raise the sales tax that
session?
W: Y'ah, to four per cent.
F: W we gave property, so we gave people property g$j relief. It
was a good program. Okay,/jthe ten mills was an arbitrary number,
the ten mills was the number, you know,-you're dealing with people.
For some reason or another, the ten mill limit irked the heck
out of Phil Constans.
W: It was an excuse to go out.
F: Okay. In fact at one point, he said, Phil and I always kept open
doors and I used to say that he's programmed to do what he's doing,
4 AN/ HE ye got to do it and we kept friendly. At one point, he said,
AeS It TpF/Y
you know, that ten millsAno good. If -y'll go to twelve, we won't
walk. He said we're gonna walk at ten. And we were up there in
the lobby, and he said, twelve, we will stay, but at ten we're gonna
I,
walk. So I went around to see Ralph and Fred and had an
JLL LET yaou KA'V
informal meeting and just passed on the message, asp-og as P yo-
LETYou kba/lw WVHT rHY'RE SALY/M^l
-kmZ-t-he-same. And they said that for twelve, for ten, they're
AT
gonna take a walk at ten, butAtwelve, they'll stay. Yeah, that's
TH AT
what he wanted, I forgot about I'm a historian, that's the guy
doing the, a lot of the study about private schools in the legislature.
And if I remember correctly, Fred p4LA, you know, if they're gonna
walk, they walk, you know, that's it. But that, you know, the
HFE 3a 19
sj
F: whole thing's kind of silly 9^a two mills, t-at n-&eLt make that
much difference. Whether, whether he just wanted to win something
Lavd -hAt Los2 -Ft ecetLte
or whether he knew they wouldn't change, Aq eehA-ae- y
to walk, you know, nobody'll ever know. Only Phil Constans can
tell you that. But I took him seriously and delivered the message
and said that at ten mills, they're gonna walk. Kh = y let
them walk. They felt they had done a hell of a good job, and
they had.
AAI
W: Christian came out forAincome tax ftate income tax.
^ / w
F: Christian has always said, you know, 4 that's really not related
to the walk out. He's always taken position;about income tax.
Never any, never had any hesitation....
7ZWAlq 7-
W: I'll relate it, because I'll say-t- the tax structure, here is
the stricture,Aof fifty states there's no tax structure so narrow,
I've got a lot of documentation.
F: Well, that, that, you're not involved inthe walk out though.
W: It creates an atmosphere of confrontation and inadequate financing.
e other words these teachers walked out of the culminating
frustration.
F: You know, they walkedbut M, you know, if you want to be, you
want the red 'lCOA T7fills -oat with the, you know, re7
W: R ht. Well, I'll take it into consideration.
F: Take it into consideration. They were as weiq all are, the
product of their times, right? You know, downtrodden teacher.
You know, the poor lady with the long dress and nobody pays attention
to her, makes you go to church on Sunday. You know, she changed,
HFE 3a 20
sj
F: you see. And all of the sudden in education in Florida we had
lots of men. The leadership switched, there were young people,
more young people involved with/leader position. Phil Constans
is one of them. Teachers have always been frustrated, you're
fastrated. Anybody in education is frustrated.because you, you
know, you never feel like you've got enough tools to do all the
things you'd like to do, and so you always got a certain amount,
if you're not frustrated, you're in the wrong business. You
know, if a teacher goes home at night and says, "I had a hell of
a good day," ye-ove- missed something. Because most good teachers
go home and say, "You know, I didn't do something for somebody."
Okay, but then they had the blacks to look at and there was a
K_'dmi_ theory of social revolution. The blacks prove, you know,
that militancy gets results. And I+hink that's primarily the
whole operation. And I think that the F.E.A. looked at what
blacks did subconsiously or, or you know, carefully, and they
felt the action, militancy, we're gonna do, we're gonna move. y ktov
/t's got nothing to do with the tax structure. Those things....
W: They're contributing factors.
F: ....those things were, were, you know, reasons, not causes.
Those a--nthings they pointed to you know, for, as crutches, but
they really weren't the pillars of the movement. They had nothing
to do with any of it. Because if you look at the money they did
get....
LET'S WrF
W: Yeah, i-t be careful, right, they'r-e ready for confrontation.
F: You know, if they had gotten that money, and we had eeaaFz-that
money in 1967, and in '66, or '67 rather, there would have been
nothing, you know. The buildup had come, and then there was just
HFE 3a 21
sj
F: no other way they could go.
W: Well, you've also got to makeAwhy the public would support them,
and you do that on a basis of what was given to them. Why they
thought they should go out anyway because of certain strictures
that they viewed. And all fifty state haven't had such an
experience.
F: Let me tell you a hint. No other.-state will ever have it since
Florida, because everywhere you go in this country, and everywhere
I went, and when you, when you CoMC-L gb T-to Johnny Seay,
ask him if he's got his notes on the report he made at Atlantic
City, the AASA, where he told them about the walk out, you know.
Everywhere you went, they want to know about Florida. And every
association over the country would tell us how stupid it was.
You know, how could you walk out with all that money against the
legislature, but you can't do anything about it. That was the
first and last state, and because it was, it was the last one
because it was the first-and it failed. No other state will do it.
The F.E.A. demolished every person in position of leadership of
the F.E.A. at that time is gone.
W: Yeah, I know it was a complete failure.
F: You know, that's why no other state has done it ;Si because it doesn't
work.
W: Okay. You had some inside details on how Hayden Burns confeIrce
was planned with a fellow from Tampa whe -fas the apparent leader,
but how it was planned in this office.
HFE 3a 22
sj
F: Yeah, well the conference of education was/Bob Gates, who worked
for the governor's office and for us, put together the conference.
We've had them before, whea they just stimulants to get interest
in education so that you can develop a program to go to legislature
with and build some support. The conference in itself wasn't
exceptionally significant or productive except for Christian's
speech but it did no more e no less than most of them do. I
think....
W: Well, how's this meant, you say you always use a citizen as a front
on these things, how does that work?
F: Well, that's a bad word, not as a front. Everything, well up until
just recently, U(&qgtWtt up until the year round legislature Tor -
M_ C__ every major program in education which is every major
new program in education has always been enacted with citizens
carrying the ball leadership positions, and that doesn't
mean front. You know, if it wasn't any good, they wouldn't be
doing it. In '47 we had the citizen's committee, and in '52 4e
had a building committee. Every time we had, every time education
had a major new thrust to make, we always involved citizens in it.
It just made good sense. You know, we're, and we should have, because
now they're passing bills saying you have/every school has- to .
have a citizen's advisory committee. That's just how we stand on
operating procedure, and that conference was just no more, no less
than any other one.
W: Whosq, he was, this man's idea, what's his name? Bob Gates?
F: By0b Gates. I don't know, it was Christian's idea.
HFE 3a 23
sj
W: Who'sg idea was it?
F: It was Christian's idea.
W: This conference was Floyd Christian's idea?
0
F: Christian's, it was Christian's idea for, for the Hayden Burns
conference, right. He asked Haydn. He, mayet ask him next time q aizr
aAAets V maybe, that may have been in Haydn's, in Haydon Burns's
campaign promise, pe-aesS and program. Christian was a
supporter of Hayden Burns. He was appointed by HaydXn Burns. Uh,
he suggested it, I don't remember, yeah, Christian suggested it.
W: Well it should be.
F: Yeah. Yeah.
l .ig tI. Do
W: I 'lA you remember any of the negotiations with the bi-partisan
committee, Schiltz's group?
F: Yeah, I met with them.
W: What happened?
F: These three gentlemen, the secretary of state's talking to him
down below uh....
W: What was it, what happened?
F: It's with Von Reid and everybody, and....
W: Can you think, can you remember anything significant about him?
t- E 71
F:A See, what'd we do? We, we had a lot of meetings. We excluded the
press, and, let's see, what'd we do? And we always reported progress.
Let's see, okay, we, those are the meetings, I'd forgotten those
too, those are the meetings that the F.E.A. went with. George
Dabs and Phil Constans used to meet. Tom Reed from the republicans,
didn't get there all the time. Uh, Fred Schultz, myself, somewhere WAJ
Ouht hae a lis those
_rAI- .hav.e a list of those people.pi, Ka0oeQ it SkoO akiptce.'
HFE 3a 24
sj
W: Well, I T 0k41 I, that's not important.
F: I'm trying to remember, you know,4trying Je.Ba-i /Yhat'd
we do?
W: I, I want to know if you have any anecdotes about it, anything that
happened.
F: I'm trying to pjg7lsA what we met for, what'd we /lI'ft OY" .
W: What was Constants like as a negotiator? A lounger, or a...?
OK1q ',F kViv)ov.) viJ|ecf
F: Let's see, that was the committee that led to...a''Uir/o8fc?-1,-1
OdR
That was the committee where tie 'major recommendation was that we,
that uh, Phil worked up his major agreement with the governor,
he was vey-pleased that we would move up the governor's, see, the
governor kept saying, "I got lt," Kirk kept saying, "I got a
committee working on it, you know?" That's right, the major goal,
major,THE INSTAP/Te, won, they were going to do it right awav, and
that and the finances was -fmaf out with Phil and Wade Hopping,
you know Wade Hopping's here, lobbying for a, for a child development
company, copration, he's upstairs doing all.during the week
lobbying,, lives here in town. You might zgr#h- to talk to him, he
was the governor's, Wade Hopping was the governor's man and all of
this stuff. He was the Kirk man) ,N'ly he wasn't very happy about
it because he knew when Kirk was wrong. Uh, that, that, I don't
remember any anecdotes out of that thing, except the relationships
were friendly7 Everybody was trying. All right, now, Christian
called that one too. He called a meeting in the Mott building,
Floyd did eve- hee-, House ef-senate leaders and the F.E.A. and --
A i///7 4t mo-t B i(
//'Y N/V/,T $T^ supposed to be a secret meeting, but it got out,
to try to see what he could do to hammer out some agreement. Get,
HFE 3a 25
sj
F: you know, just democratic leadership was what it was, I think,
to start with.A he Mott building story show/)any clippings anywhere?
Ir
W: They did say .that he/was his idea to have a bi-partisan committee.
T17 T I
F: We called PVq^ -W-h-i-44 called-1rm-, right. That was his own, that
", 0( 0yboI&A
wasn't mine, or ou-knew, Johnny Seay5, 4f PV e' gimmick. Most
of these things, that, for all truth, you know, most of the major
decisionsAwere made, were made by Christian, you know, got decisions
on his own. You know, when he went on television for instance,
answering Kirk when he and Phil Constans, he had a half hour
together.
W: Right.
F:A I opposed it. You know, it was his own, he said yes, it, his
decision to go before the legislature in '68 and say "I'm not going
to run, put my name on a ballot, you know." When the job was
his. We did that one in secret, it was on the phone.
W: Tell me about that. What was so nuch fun about that?
F: Well, because nobody knew what it was we were doing.
W: What were you doing?
F: You know, he just came in one day and decided, "I'm going to
call his bluff." \l\!(, kool, ^ ^ ^ ,, that's not
7 I 7 "* Ut' _V tl N'- w -
right, he didn't say it that way. He came in one day, he called
WA^/T TO ,
me over there, and said, "This is what I'm-gea-do. When he does
( WotO hc^s 9OI"3 {
that, 1(k/4z probablyAgive me orders, you know.W And he
said, "I want to talk to the legislature." And he didn't know
1FVF9 l",TN Mo
it hadAbeen done before, aR-wet cabinet member had ever talked
to a joint assembly of the legislature before. It had never been
done before, or since. You know, he didn't know that was history
HFE 3a 26
sj
F: because he had no legislative background. Says, "I want to, I'm
'wl ociR -O c4 -r
gonna offer to resign. Not to resign,Ato accept that ccovn ri'sM h
OlnManw/m to do away with my job. And then they got no reason why we can't
pass the bill." Now, it really wasn't a ruse, you know, it wasn't
really a trick, although we never did run it, it, you know, when
we had uh, Constan's revision, that never did get on the ballot
at all. Uh, and although I'm sure he was confident that we would
win anyway, that they would vote it down, he didn't really do it
jHe/
as a gimmick,Ayou know, Kirk said that that was the obstacle,
he was saying, "Well, I'll remove it and let's get this school
money passed." Uh, this was, oa sound terrible if Christian
ever heard me, but he, Christian is basically a simple person,
he isn't very complex. He doesn't work out great big devious
plans, you know. You know, he sees things line for line as they
are now. And I think he came in one, slept one night, had a bad
TtPIs is
night or something, and didn't sleep and the next morning/Iwhat
VS Uv4LLY f yaf
happens, Pu-d--wth great ideas come first thing in the morning,
he'd come in my office right away and say, like on these T.V, I )
/X* 4 the T.V'. thing, he walk.- in one morning, aid emi-, "is'./''./
P/ARy /7 FREFD_ Ay___, I don't care what you say, we're going on television,"
you know, that kind of thing. .F.lft' he hadAnights, he'd come up with
great ideas in the morning. Well, how'd I get on that, where was
I going?
W: You were trying to talk about the idea that he was going to
address the joint session.
F: Right, okay. So he, he called Roy, Burl Pope, who was president
a0n 0o
of the senate,Atold him what he was thinking of doing, Burl said
HFE 3a 27
sj
'LL
F: it was a great idea. That'sAthe -goE people who knew about it
at that time, and Burl then called me up then and talked to me
for an hour about ideas he had about what he dbgt to say, you.
p p/p rNo,/Ir ./so
know, most of which didn't do, but I c-ei4-- ns-e=y he'd recognize
IT
zaxv in his speech. And it was interesting because we were working
all the legislative team was in my office with me, five or six
people worked together, and I had to write 'that speech, and I
couldn't tell/what I was doing, I said it's a secret, now you all
can't look, you know. Uh, think we had two days, I wrote it one
day, I looked at it the other day, it's not a very good speech.
I thought it was pretty good at the time, but it stinks, it's
written horrible, you know, like a school boy's speech. But it
in it
had the thingsAthat everybody wanted. Interesting part about
it is that we, they agreed, Jack Matthews and Burl and, and Ralph
agreed to the joint'session, and it wasn't until I went up there,
nobddy had seen the speech, nobody really knew what we were going to
say, ryu kno and I went up there with Christian and su. secretary,
we had all the speeches in our haridj, and I went in the speaker's
office., and Ralph and I forget who else was in there, four or
five guys, Henry VJYlal and a couple of people, and at that point,
I told them what he was going to do. they didn't really know what
he was going to say until/flunky me went in and said what we were
going to do. The membership didn't know. Democrats and republican,
it was very interesting to watch whbn Christian talked in the
house and made his speech, you know, talking in general about the
problem and stuff. The look on people's face when he said, you
know, that I am willing to have this put on the ballot and that kind
ofW --Tv --
HFE 3a 28
sj
F: /ery interesting. At that point, it was, that point, it was very
dramatic, you know. I don't remember'what the headlines said, but
we looked great and everybody said "Stroke of genius." You know,
"You, you're elected forever, you know, wonderful idea, you know."
I got a lot of credit for it and I kept saying, "No, it wasn't my
idea, it was Christian's And it was. At that point in time,
/ I/
it,was, it was, broke a log jam, you see,/jremoved the one-phony
Vneiw
impediment that Kirk had thrown up and nobody iAMi how to get out of
it because nobody wanted to, we had to force that bill through,
the legislature. Our friend didn't want to vote for it.
W: Why?
F: Because they said it's wrong,Ayou know, and we shouldn't do it to
help this guy, you know.
W: Help what guy?
F: Help Kirk, you know.
W: Why was the bill helping Kirk?
F: Well, because it gave Kirk a chance at Christians' job.
W: Oh, I see.
F: See? And we had to fight our own friends,in fact, it didn't
pass unanimously, they gave it the roll call. But we had to fight
our own friends to pass a bill to get the people a chance to
do away with Christian's job. But he was king of the hill.during
this period of time, you know, Christian was top dog. Yeah, he
stood for every, see, all that kind of stuff made him the rallying
point in the battle against Kirk, you know, the contrast. We
became the focal point, which is why when we'd get into the strike
and that kind of thing, Christian naturally became the center
HFE 3a 29
sj
F: of leadership because we were the center of the battle in the
beginning, we were the focal point of, Christian was the focal
point of all of Kirk's ire. They told me one day at a coc ail
party, Don Reed did it, and I went to one one night, that Bill,
William Sapphire whoinow, who's WKkEPASAspeech writer for Nixon,
who was the guy who did the confrontation thing with Khrushchev
-rTH-/ AP WHIo I /ow TNEI
and Nixon and the kitchen/ btaead-- I write for/ANew York Times
he wrote, William Sapphire, very well known. He was working for
Kirk at the time for the DrveFOPMcommission, and Don Reed told
me that his advice to Kirk was to pick out one cabinet member,
see, Kirk was taking onr cabinet, but just to pick out one and
to pick on Christian because schools are vulnerable, and just
let him have it, just zero in on him all the time. I believe it,
that's whatTheydid, you know, so Kirk, I mean Christian became the
target for Kirk but he also became the symbol of all these other
fellows who knew that he was really hitting everybody, you see.
Which also gave him a, a special ability to do that kind of....
hey Shelley, you need something?
St: No, just get a little rest.
F: You know Art White-' Art-White; Shelley Boone.
J 0:- Hell-oArt; how are you, good to see you.
F: We're doing the history project.
# : Doing a history project? Oh sure, sure.
F: We're doing the walkout. Were you here, where were you during
the walkout?
W: In Polk County somewhere.
A : I'll tell you where I was, I was saying are there teachers out.
HFE 3a 30
sj
F 0S: What was Christian....
F: We're trying to put all this stuff together, and you forget
everything, here.P.P IT OA TH/ 1MI'F A/lP I/' T/'" 7-o
F t: ....and then I'll ask you a question, cause you were on the other
side, you were downstate, right? You know, right?
F: What was Christian doing during the walkout that, from what you
saw? Where, where was Floyd, where was, you know, Christian?
e a: Floyd's always on the side of the teachers, but he's also on the
side of law and order and, and contractesArelationship, and he
was p to, as we saw it down there, try to steer first, get the
governor to recognize the problems of the teachers at the same
time, get the teachers to recognize that a little patience would,
was in order on their side. And I don't know if this is what
you're looking for.
F: We're not looking for anything, we're just, you know, he's interviewing
me and then Johnny Seay, and people close, you know? Why do you
think the teachers walked out, I couldn't answer. Why do you think
the teachers actually walked out after all that money in that bill.
f?: Well, they didn't know what was in the bill. As a matter of fact,
we had leadership in our county that came on Friday and got up and
told the teachers that the bill provided for them as much or more
than they had asked for and over the weekend, the pressures from
F.E.A. got to him and he came back and retracted his story. So the
teachers didn't know what was in the bill, and they would not
accept, you know, the superintendents came up here and we got back
to our counties. And through John Clark, he got to some of the
HFE 3a 31
sj
S.: local people,Atold them the bill gave them more than they'd asked,
-,, /4/-/OA?/
and it did. I was, I was chairman of iHF committee 7/ -42
YEF P/ 0 )-D &O w
the q h--I --d you Ireari" that?
F: That's right, when I was, I was 0 4 /7. ThI same year?
F#: P/4 / 1Y R//cH IS l;A7 [57 L 7 TiFA41',9 Air on my committee.
F: Oh, no.
gf: This is a dastardly thing. It was not the teacher's loss, political
uh, foul-up that was important. But a, it pitted husband against
wife, neighbor against neighbor. Pitted superintendents, and I'm
one of them who loved his teachers and fought for/j and was a teacher.
F: Did your wife walk out?
Bj 8: No, she didn't walk out. Uh, she wouldn't walk out now, she'll
fuss, but she wouldn't walk out on hercontract. But, uh....I would
think if I were writing about this thing, I think I could accurately
fTagt that the commissioner was caught between the people that
he considered to be his KI/ND people that he loved, and that's
the teacher. And -whi he knew to be what was right. And the fact!
Of TH7F fI/rAFA7 W-FtK they got the money they were asking =ol.
W: Most teachers take a position f F-aoppos/tion to Christian, seeing
C ULP/r -Hr
him as a e=o4- 0 1 P/ / they see him as a person trying
to do his duty, or what?
S ?: I really don't know.
F: F.T.E. you- can go -d /flo /J, fOOP'
P 4: There-was-little reference to Mr. Christian or the department of
education. In my county, all the time that the teachers were out
and we were trying to bring them back. And Floyd went on the
warpath for his districts that wanted to punish the teachers
HFE 3a 32
sj
S.: and p P VtRyH/N HI -otl T(
.: and 9/9 Yr" get those teachers back in the classroom.
poES' 'riatA mean he endorsed what they did e-r he said they're our
VWF'P rre
teachers and they w.tedza- leadership and they were caught on the
leadership, ad-was bad leadership. But I really don't recall
any reference to him as a culprit or as a hero from the teachers"
point. 'Cause I was pretty deeply involved. Except they're
daily bringing more and more back into the classrooms and telling
my lifelong friends that you're my friend, you. But it was rough.
They were, they were so organized that every morning they'd have
a prayer meeting over in Lakeland. And my coaches as an example,
6n three days running, came as a group county-wide their leadership
did, said, we'll be in the classroom tomorrow, we're tired of this
thing. And before the days over, they'd get them back to the
prayer meeting, and they didn't show up the next. Three days running,
these people really firmly convinced themselves to be back in the
Pu/7-
classroom the next day, wdi--they didn't show up, till finally
they did.
W: The rah-rah meetings.
S X: Yeah.
W: Kirk called those voodoo meetings.
end of side one
HFE 3a 33
tape side two
sj
$1: A!.'iDennis wouldn't, wouldn't go with it. =-a, you remember what
I I/T 4T TIF/
it was,/,trying to remember what A/, what/wasAthe d- you know.
B /: I don't either.
W: Al said s that they shouted him down. I think it was special
negotiations./ That the hitch? He didn't say they were going to
go for that, but that the department would encourage the development
of a liason.
8 f: If was there and was really troubled.
F: I remember the details that we-were real....
? : See, several of us have been close to George, as close as you can
get, and that's not necessarily close. And that doesn't mean
anything. But he'd been an older person in terms of service in
7-0
my area of Florida, and I'd looked at-him and had some conversations
with him and worked with him on T V and everything so I
knew something about him before he came up here, and I knew some
of his feelings, and but the part I can't bring into focus with
the I UL4f^ .
W: Was that the, what was this meeting, February 28 or so?
F: I, uh, we called it.
W: Was this in relation to the compromise resolutions he had
proposed?
F: Well, we were working up some compromise that the cabinet agreed
to or he was going to present....
IT
W: Well, the compromise was jttsT to release $10,400,000 in hold-back
bonds for education.
ANPF
F: You heed to talk to Pettigrew about that ,Ahe helped us work that
HFE 3a 34
sj
F: out. Ditk Pettigrew did on that.
Sf: I can't help you on that meeting, I was there, and I remember
very vividly the rejection of 4-t as far as I know, it's the only
major issue that the superintendents were as adamant in their
rejection of the position of the commission. But I don't know
what the position was.
W: The only thing that was controversial was the idea of some sort
of professional negotiations, everything else was straightforward.
He helped try to get the teachers back....
[ : He usedT WOD aFEI~YNaffS/o/AL W'oLd
f: He used TE / OP ffFE55loNAL" W"never uses the word professional
negotiations.
W: No, he didn't use that word.
A oeo{>y WOVL-) EtIU
(: y", .....i..-w .A e use$ that phrase, 'cause I would have
said, you know, that phrase is obviously a CED-fL/Nphrase.
W: That's where, that's4where, thatSwas where they got clobbered,
when, all right, the cabinet meet'on February 29, Kirk accused
them of unionism....
F : e always did, you see, it's ONE fEAN WFstayed away from t.
W: Right, okay. Well you didn't use the word professional negotiations,
but that you would develop some kind of liason between the teachers
and the school board.
F/: We would have said something else.
f : Well, there were, there were some, there were some memoranda
pfnof TrF r9T WOVLP
that was being passed around to certain .....give you a clue.
ME7ET/-// oN TAP V.
W: I think I've got the medi+-. I've got the meeting on tape.
f : I've got to go home. I didn't mean to come in and interupt you,
I just wanted to tell you to have a good weekend.
HFE 3a 35
sj
W: Nice meeting you, Mr. Boone.
F: You have the meeting on tape?
W: Yeah.
(break)
W: Dick Pettigrew. Give me your, who's he, and what did he have
to do with this...?
F: Speaker of the house, he's now a state senator.
W: He wasn't then speaker of the house, was uh, Turlington, Ralph
Turlington.
F: No, he was, well he was speaker after that, he was K- -E _t_-
just this last session.
W: All right, he's what, a republican or a democrat?
F: Democrat, liberal democrat senator.
W: From where?
F: From Miami.
W: All right, -4- south....
H A FrLLOW NAMED
F: We just beat uim= -n a-- George Hallahan, he's a good clean man,
he was, worked with me in Leroy Collins campaign. He was campaign
manager. He....
W: Okay. What'd he do with the compromise?
F: Well, he's from Dade County, and Dade County had a stake here,
a real stare, and Pat Torn11lo was from Dade County, you know,
the ACT I rEOPLE and Janet Dean and everything, and 'UT 1
I remember him calling me on the phone, and I put him in touch
with, with Christian, and he helped work out the $10,000,000.
The money part, it was his, he had some idea, it may have been,
you know, that Tornollo told him something- atd he was, it was the
HFE 3a 36
sj
F: first time when money was mentioned, I think was when Turlington,
when Pettigrew did talk about money. That was the first money
involvement. And whereIDthe $10,000,000 come from?
W: ITWas held back during the '67 session because of a budget
deficit....
F: The budget commission held it back, the cabinet held it back.
W: Yeah, every area of government had so much held back.
F: Okay, well Dick may tell you more about it, but it may have been
I F WE HAP
that, that they said jIt=-wut some more money, you know, we
could work it out, and then we came up with the $10,000,000.
I//
And Dick was involved wHF it, I think it was, I keep thinking
it was his idea about the money. All I was, was the messenger
boy, you know.
ALL IcHT. "FHINC-
W: @F-. I think I've got that dw=;on tape, that's, it helps, very
)r HFL 8 -- tJAP T // I IcReloPh/ E oN,
interesting, yeAF=kWow. Get some fit
NF HEM O N.
F: thad the begr-ad.
W: Yeah.
F: He drives me up a wall.
W: HUh. A'eh, e had the mike on. All right. Distortions in
reporting. I'm interested in this bureau that set, sent the data
w r v- Al T
downstairs on how many teachers were back and how many -aidE .
Tell me about that, it's not on the, you told me before, but you
didn't tell me on the tape.
vFRK7
F: Oh, Fat it's4simple, we just....
W: Who's idea was it?
F: Mine. That was, you know, it's no, no great big idea related to
any kind of X strategy dealing with the strike or walkout, it was
HFE 3a 37
sj
F: just a normal information function which I perform all the time.
I anticipated that people were going to expect us to know what was
going on in schools. This has been a basic premise that I've
operated on for twenty-seven years in the department, you know.
That we're supposed to know what's going on even though we don't
always have channels to know what's going on because we have a
st, not a state system, we have a district system. But there's
certain things that the public expects you to know, and I just
anticipated that was going to be one. And so we wired all of the
superintendents and set up a reporting system where they would
call or wire us every day as soon as possible after noon or something
what the situation was in their county. How many teachers showed
up, how many didn't show up, that kind of thing. We took that
and put it all together, and Al would put it on the Xerox and
we'd bring it on down to the press room at 5:30 every day. And
that became the, for all practical purposes, the official report,
because it carried Floyd Christian' said today, you see, or the
Department of Education reported today, survey showed that. Because
newspaper reporters expected us to have that kind of information.
W: Pretty 0Aq/ IT.,,- .
F: We had a good credibility, you see. Uh, we were really disinterested
even though the F.E.A. might have thought at one point we were
management or, as the record proves, you see, but the school board
members didn't go with us all the way, we didn't have all friends
and we didn't-have all enemies. We were really a disinterested
party. And we went-et strike breaking only to keep the schools
open, we really had no vendetta against anybody, and people believed
HFE 3a 38
sj
F: our figures even though in retrospect the figures came from
management which may have been not telling the truth, I don't
know. Of course, that would have been hard, because local papers
covered it, you see, the Tampa Tribune would be covering Tampa
schools so the superintendent who gave us figures, you know,
was always obligated to give us accurate figures because his
local newspaper was going to be reporting that same information.
Do you follow me? So we have good compilation and we had good
IZEP
stable statistics, and our figures were better than the F.E.A.'s
I guess. F.E.A. always had more teachers out than we did, you
know, and the newspapers ignored the F.E.A. figures.
W: Did you, I can't find the compilation of those F.E.A. figures, po you
/fl HVH )V
F: II-t ', those were day to day stuff, you know, they would say
that's not true, there were more people out. They were mad at
us for doing that kind of thing. But it wasn't done to influence,
although it did influence, because things kept getting better,
WEN7
you know, every time a teacher wa- in, the paper would say, you know,
Tf more teachers back on the job. It did have an influence on the
ultimate end of the strike. But that's not why we designed it,
IT W ASwe designed it because that's the way I operate, 'cause we still
do the same kind of thing. Informing the public.
W: Ending a strike, though; certainly would Paei-helpsetkeep the
schools open. I don't see why you wouldn't take the position that
you wanted to end that strike, break it. Why not?
THF COMMON ,StNUR wAS oF A
F: wvfJa-tT never wese into the breakingsthe strike, breaking i-Lu,
The-commissioner wanted to end the strike, but he didn't want to
Tbr E 7I t d
break Tt, there are two different things.
HFE 3a 39
sj
W: All right, he wanted to end the strike.
TH IN6-
F: Yeah, he wanted eve-y-t-h-i-ng to get back to normal again.
W: Yeah, he didn't care how that worked out, even if the teachers
got all they wanted.
HF wouP HAV -E IVr
F: tTFg them all they wanted. No, he couldn't understand why they
would, well, no, that's not true. He, he was just like everybody
else, he couldn't understand what they were doing because he
knew they were wrong. We had gotten for them the biggest, we had
more money in that one session than we had, was more additional
money for schools than we had in the two years previously for the
for the basic program. We had just, ha-t-was .r $1,000,000, say,
it was a terrible big number, 4 mfignTre $163,000,000. Some
fantastic number, that was more money than the basic program
WHoLF TVil/i-
cost, you know, we doubled theAdamnA which under normal circumstances
would have made us, God, tremendous- And it should have, it was
the biggest package ever put together. You know, and so he wasn't
VNPERS 7TAN
mad at us here, he just, you -know- said, "Hey, what are you
guys doing?" You want to, you know, Commissioner Christian was,
Christian was a fSPRF DEr/T OFF.E.A.. He's a life member. His
name is on the plaque on the building over there.because he
headed the committee that builf that building they're now in.
N0#- DA
You know, he's a teacher. You don't just, you know/ say, "Hey,
look, I'm management," and he wantFhis idea was to save the F.E.A.
because had that strike gone a couple more days, there would have
been none at all. They were bankrupt, they borrowed their $1,000,000,
I think it is from the National Education Association. The N.E.A.
was getting ready to cut them off. We met with Hannan, you know the
HFE 3a 40
sj
F: N.E.A. sent a man down here.
W: Tell me about that.
F: What's his first name? Hannan, he was a nice fellow who tried to,
who mediated at the end, who recognized that the F.E.A. had gone
too far to try to save their face because they were draining the
treasury all over the country. They almost wrecked the N.E.A.
because....
W: That what Hannan said?
F: No, that's just generally understood that the N.E.A. was in
terrible bad trouble because Florida had become a symbbl to the
rest of this country and they had to support them, you know.
If they didn't support them, they would have looked like, well,
if you don't support Florida, who are you going to support? But
they knew they were losing, Hannan was a, he had more legislative
know-how than, and understanding than Phil Constans did.
W: How could you document that?
F: Just by the way you talk to the man and the questions he asks
you. You know, and you can tell who knows more about government
than, it's a special language, legislature rnd- government.
W: Give me any examples of that? So I can make a case?
F: No, not off hand. I don't even remember what his background
was. But he was a skilled, you know, a....
W: What did he do? You said he acted as a mediator, how did that
work?
F: I'm trying to remember what he did. Who he talked to besides us.
He talked to Phil, he talked to us. I can't remember all the people
he talked to, but they sent him down, kind of like to take charge.
HFE 3a 41
sj
F: I understand he wanted to get it over with, you know. An.d he
worked with us in the final end with the, with the cabinet and the
TENI /VI TR5oE
last agreements, he was involved with tAeu-must-final agreements.
T4 7- A-/P
To get, that the F.E.A. agreed to, andF kind of,AI'm trying to
remember. Miami went back in first, Dade County jumped the gun
to go in, okay. I forget some of this, too. When you live through
it, you don't pay that much attention to the details.
W: Anything else you remember? I can't think of any other questions.
Except you made a casea-f every, everything the N.E.A. reported,
even their political atmosphere )X study? came out in May of '66,
was distorted. The figures were distorted.
F: IT /5 H I keep everything.
Well, I don't, I don't know where it is. Have you read it, I'm
sure you have. Here. This is not a mock up. Marie .Cole will be
here later and maybe she can remember some of the things.
A/WELL there are errors in it', something's wrong and I just
don't know offhand what it is, you know. I can't give you an
YFA 01
answer real quick, you know. They were mad at Haydon Burns because
he held the line.
p rFE VETO
W: Newspapers document it, they said X threat of his being in total
controlLED THE LFC/ LC-AT'RF
F: It wasn't anti-education, it was, was straight cutting, we wont"
//:(r vo VO T6
go' 4r anything/anybody.
wEFRE ,P p"
W: 'Cept f-r that you'e going to use the bond technique for rows.
F: Which failed.
W: Yeah, but, they tried FOR ITT 7-//Y-_ at least advocatePit, that was
his, because it failed doesn't mean he didn't try. It ought to
HFE 3a 42
sj
W: have failed.
F: Well, you know.
HF
W: You know what interests that is involved, 4e-yotr- Big, big industry
will get a lot of profit from the roi-. WHAT --Oo WILL ) KoAP po
p'[7 Tonly need one of them.
F: Well, I can't put my hand on it, you know, but you got the clippings,
it doesn't show anything in the clippings?
W: No rebuttal from the state department.
WE P/PINT
F: Oh, we just rolled with it, three wa--S rebuttaz. Yeah, we, our
position was to take advantage of it. Even when they started, you
know, we didn't really like the idea.of h*e. putting posters on
the walls, you know, saying sanctions, and I mean, the teachers
WIHFN 77-'7
in=Ze, gave Florida a bad national reputation. But in all
honesty, you know, we were willing to take advantage of it to
NY o PPK T0
try to get more money. Because it gave us a beef '-caue- y-ot
get more money for schools, which has always been one of our main
concerns. But we didn't like that business about sending letters
all over the country, don't come to Florida, that kind of thing,
telling teachers not to come. We felt that was wrong, that wasn't
"professional, we opposed that. You know, the situation was not
that bad, you see, because up until '65, we had lots of good
sessions, we did a lot of great things for Florida. It wasn't
that really bad.
UC/T 4JoaT
W: -Btrt everybody said, though, since '57, there hadn't been a pro-
education legislature in terms of money, large increases in te
money. There had been some reorganization, development of some
outstanding programs, but there hasn't been a tremendous amount
HFE 3a 43
sj
W: of money placed.
F: In '57?
W: Since '57.
F: They said it was the great, with the big package.
W: Yeah, that was Leroy Collins.
F: '59. I could look it up, he's got it, he's got it out there.
THE #iXOON UyrrS ScS5/oN
We, I doA't, up, up until, I don't know, tad
VP Vt71f-
but there, e-ve that period.of-time, we were always able to say
we did some great thing every session. We always passed some
T7-- P/D
new kind of legislation to-de something brand new. It wasn't
always, you know, massive, but we did something new for schools
every session I've been here.
W: Right.
F: There's always something happening, you know. We never got
what we had, we never got as much as we asked for, well, one session,
Collins gave teachers, gave us a teacher pay raise which was
one hundred dollars more than we were getting ready to ask for.
You know, that was interesting. Where else can we go?
W: We're done, I don't have anything I want to ask you.
F: Okay.
W: You have anything you remember?
F: Just don't quote Allen whatever you do.
W: Who"
F: Don't quote Allen anywhere.
W: Why not?
F: Hmm? Because, you know, for lots of reasons, just don't quote Allen.
W: You don't want me to interview Allen Irksley?
HFE 3a 44
sj
F: Hmm?
W: You don't want me to interview him?
F: Well, he just, he-s- justAdelivery downstairs, and he doesn't really
know what happened. The commissioner doesn't like him anymore.
Wish I could remember what it was in here that was so obvious.
There was one....maybe it'll come to me later. You'll be here
77 7I0 r TO /:12If z 70
Monday, and if you're here when Marie Kohler comes in,4find that
stuff in here somewhere.
THf E PoRKCo PFFRS VHO wErr
W: So it was a-peo-r_ __hat:--was responsible. North
Florida rural people.
/r wA A; Tir9
F:A Same people that passed the MF.P. North Florida rural people.
They passed the financial program in the first place. They passed,v
they gave us everything. They passed the '57 program.
YLF; T
A-AP All this -A.ST-F.A.. money.
W: Well, Howard, this state did have many problems in education.
Very low salaries, crowding was, Christian points to them all
the time. He documents them in every speech he makes, he says
there was a crisis in education. So it's obviously the handling
of these people in a certain area was more effective than
another, they can be....
F: We, we're getting hung up on our own phrases because we always
took advantage of every situation to try to get more money for
schools, you know. We created a crisis when there was no crisis.
VOU KNow, +-wrote, I wrote most of those speeches, I wrote speeches
for three commissioners for twenty-seven years and we always
talked about crisis because that's the only way you get any
money. You, you always talk....
HFE 3a 45
sj
W: You were distorting it purposely?
YOW
F: No, no. You always talk about/Ishortcomings. You know, the
responsibility of a, of a superintendent, commissioner, knowing
TPA47- TO
that you need to do better and/you always can is 4-e focus
on what you can do better.
W: Wha you have contributed.
F: So you know, you kind of self, self destruct, I guess.
W: Yeah, yeah, but you have contributed to an atmosphere in which
the teachers were functioning in the belief that they were in a-
crisis. Demoralizing situation.
F: 'Cause you self destruct, you know?
W: I know, but you ha4 contributed then, haven't you?
F: BUt I just, you know, the Hayden Burns year was not that bad. It
was bad, but it was not that bad. Just, you know, I just am a
you know, it was not an anti-education session, it just wasn't a
pro-education session. And that, combined with the, you know,
the programming of guys like Phil Constans and the new militancy
of the people in general, gets It kept right
on going till it toppled the president, you know, same militancy.
Same threat that started with Martin Luther King and the bus in
Birmingham-went right on through until Lyndon Johnson got off the,
was no longer a candidate. It's the same threat. It's run it's
course. Nobody goes to universities anymore because J. pON ELI lF
THfY wantA education, they just didn't want to go to war. Isn't that
terrible?
W: Um hum. It is.-
plCT t4r /, OF
F: 1 H-fOP TO 6-OP you know. A HLL OF /f IN the American
f'o PLE. You KQow. T-T EY P/ INT i-fT7 To o To SCHOOLQ TYF%"
r-us7 Pi/p r /wA/r To C-6 To VI/T/VAM. I/11HAf yooR scIEputLE rTI
wfFKF W WHAT 7A5' you ol/#C -ro DOJ
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