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Interview with Carl Lambert, June 21, 1977

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Title:
Interview with Carl Lambert, June 21, 1977
Creator:
Lambert, Carl ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:
Language:
English

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Cherokee Indians -- Florida
Absahrokee -- Absaroka -- Apsaalooke -- Apsaroke
Cherokee Oral History Collection ( local )

Notes

Funding:
This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

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Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'Cherokee' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management:
Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/.
Resource Identifier:
CHER 12 ( SPOHP IDENTIFIER )

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Full Text

CREP, 12A Mayhew

SUBJECT: Carl Lambert (MONOLOGUE) 1

DATE: June 21, 1977



Well, I'm Carl Lambert, and I'm retired from the-CETA program.

And uh, Mr. Carroll Wright gave a good presentation on the Historical Associa-

tion here, and I thought that one thing that he didn't mention was that I

was the sound engineer for the drama the first 3 years, and I'm pretty well

familiar with the Historical Association and I'm:really proud of the job that

they've done.

I was asked to talk on Cherokee history, and then I was asked a

little bit later if I would also talk on tribal government, so in my presen-

here this afternoon I'm going to just interrelate to both the tribal government

and history right as one here, because tribal government has played really
not
a major part in Cherokee history since the removal. I'm/going to dwell much

on history before the removal, although I will talk briefly about it. I think

probably all of you have seen the drama up here, and it's a good presentation,

but as we know, dramas can't be all historically correct, because they're put

on for dramatic purposes. When Pierman Hunter was writing the play, he bor-

rowed some books and material from my father to get some information in

writing it. And every once in a while he would come by and try what he had

written out onmy father there for size, and my father was continually criti-

cizing him for some of the stuff that he'd put down. But Kerman's answer was

always, "Well, Mr. Lambert, we're writing this for dramatic purposes, and we

have to stretch the truth a little, once in a while."
you
So, I'm not going to try to reconvert/over some of the things that

you may have seen up at the drama, because as I say, it's pretty well histor-

ically correct. As the drama shows, DeSoto was the, his crew was probably

the first white men that the Cherokees ever laid eyes on. They campby here

about 35 miles south of here in 1540, over around Franklin, there, and the






CHER2A 2 ayew
SUBJECT: Carl Lambert

DATE: June 21, 1977



fellows that were keeping records that were with DeSoto gives a pretty good

account of life around Franklin at that time. They mention that mound, that

N Nound that's still standing over there. It's the only mound

that I know of in this area that hasn't been dug into, I guess maybe it's the

only one in the East, and maybe in the United States that hasn't been dug into.

At the time the, DeSoto came through here, the Cherokees had about

145,000 square miles of land, and it lies partly in 8 states now. Itrwent

clear up the River there of Charleston, West Virginia up to

the Ohio there. Run into Ohio at Point Pleasant, W.V. and it ran clear down

the Ohio River to the dividing ridge between where the Tennessee River and

the Cumberland River runs into the Ohio. The Cumberland River and the Ohio

R--I mean, the Tennessee River both run into the Ohio fairly close together

there. It ran down and took in just a little bit of Mississippi, on down

through Alabama, around over through Georgia, and then it turned back north

just, and ran just a little bit north of Atlanta and then it wheeled around

and went over b y Stone Mountain, back way down below Columbia, South Carolina.

back up the Catawba River, back to the Blue Ridge over here. So they had

quite a large area to patrol and keep track of, and the Cherokees were pretty

well stationary when the white man first came here, they had quit being

nomads and wandering all over the country, they are supposedly, according to

legend and history the Cherokees are related to the Iroquois and the groups

of Indians up along the lakes there in New York. And they were supposed to

have migrated down here, but in migrating they didn't all come down here at

once. And another thing, toq, the Cherokees had to move somebody off of this

land when they came here, because if you go back in time, the Cherokees were

fairly late comers. They've only probably been in this area no more than






CHER12a 3 Mayhew

SUBJECT: Carl Lambert

DATE: Jun 21, 1977




1000 or 1500 years at the very most. And I know we were digging a ditch right

over here across the river here a couple years ago to turn a branch downt

through there by the Whiteshield(?) Plant and they found a grave there and

the people from the University of Tennessee came over and looked at it and

they said that that grave over there was, been about 600 years old, so that's

about the oldest grave that we've dug up around in the area here, but...

Right where we are today, this land was ceded by treaty to the

federal government in 1819. These, the Indians living here in 1835 weren't

affected by th treaty of 1835, which called for the removal of the Cherokees

west of the Mississippi. The drama up here leads a lot of people to believe

that all the Indians had to move, which, that's one of the discrepancies that

there is. They were about roughly 300 people that were, been living on state

land here for about 16 years when the Treaty of was

signed. And according to the Treaty of 1819, if anybody read John Paris'

article Sunday, there was a good article in there about the governor being
and
here, XKWHX the governor's island down here, about

When they made the Treaty of 1819, they were using politics like they do to-

day in doing things. Yonagusta's(?) father was old Yonaegro,(?) Big Bear,

lived down right about where the town of Bright City is now. And they went

to these various influential Indians and made them promises,like-they would

today if they was wanting to get something passed. And a lot of those Indians

got concessions of 640 acres of land and were allowed to remain there. So

the controversy about Yonagusta and his father, there wasn't a reason Governor

Swain came over to the site down here near Bright City was. Evidently old

Big Bear had hold his land down-there to a fellow by the name of Belk, and

he died and of course Yonagusta thought that he still had a place down there







CHER 12 A 4 Mayhe
w
SUBJECT: Carl Lambert

DATE: June 21, 1977



but Governor Swain told him that he'd help him, but you know how politicians
then
are, sometimes they don't XY. do things as fast as they'd like to, and KKaXE

they're in office today and gone tomorrow. So shortly after the 1833 meeting

down at Governor's Island therewith Governor Swain, Yonagusta was persuaded

by his white neighbors that he didn't own the land, and he moved up on Soco

Credk up here, and he died in April of 1839. And this is one thing that I

want you to put down and pay particular attention to: there's, I'm one of

the very few people that knows where Yonagusta is buried. And they've been

searching for his grave for years, and everybody's got him buried under

every rockpile that there is up Soco Valley here. The records that I"ve got,

and other people would have the same, access to the same record, Kg;XKK

KSIKKXS it said he was a tall man. John Paris in the article Sunday said

he was 6'3", and if the grave up there is any indication as to the height

of the man, he was every bit of that, if not more. And it says that he was

buried about a mile from the old mission. Well, most people get so mixed up

about the old mission, but this is the Old Missions Road right up here by t

the Basser Plant. But the old mission, Macedonia Mission, wasn't there. It

was up MrrXacross, right over behind where the old Soco School is over there,

near where Walter, the late chief Walter Jackson lived. Well, and it doesn't

say exactly a mile, it, the record says,. "about a mile." So.that could be

more than a mile or less than a mile. But if you know the country up there,

that is about a mile down there to about where the Baseer plant is. There's

a cemetery out behind the Basser Plant there, it's known as the Hornbuckle

Cemetery because Israel Hornbuckle, and Israel's Hornbuckle's grandfather.

and great-grandfather are all buried out there in that cemetery. About

10 years ago, I was the director of a program they call the N-






CHER 12 A 5 Mayhew

SUBJECT: Carl Lambert

DATE: june 21, 1977



Program, and I had about 40 men, and broke up into 4 crews. And we were looking
off up
for t-hingsto do, and we trimmed HI the river banks, cleaned/106 different
and then
cemeteries, some of them maybe only one person buried there,/some of them,
we
the cemetery,rMSXS were cleaning almost hundredsof them. Well,, I was in

the office most of the time, butl'd go out frequently and visit the crews,

and sometimes I'd take my lunch and sit down with them at dinnertime. And

eat, and talk to them about who was buried in that cemetery. And I collected

up a lot of data on cemeteries and it took two issues of the

here to carry the inf--the cemetery-information that I gave them. Well, I

was always asking questions about who was buried here, and one daywe were 4I

eating dinner in this cemetery back of the Basser Plant.And if a Hornbuckle
up
came out there, and I thought then that we were/in the vicinity where they
I would
said that Yonagusta was buried, that XI ask Israel if he'd ever heard anyy-

thing about where Yonagusta iKMKS was buried. "Oh," he said, "sure," he said

we were sitting within 200 feet, he said. And he said about his grandfather

was alive at the time. And he just walked out there, and there was a sunken

down place there. And the record says that when they buried him that they p

piled small stones all over the grave. Well, we dug the leaves out of that

thing there, and that grave was sunk down, oh, CaXiXXX XXXKKX K 2 feet
that, that, in
or so downt in there, and there was all these small rocks laying on/that gr

grave there. And it, that grave had never, no dirt had ever been put in

that grave made a list. And he didn't hesitate, he didn't stutter around

about it, he'said, he said., "Sure, right out," he said, "it's right out
or anything that
there." There's no marker/there, and the reason/I'm telling you what I do

I might drop dead standing here before I get out of

here. And I was hoping that Carroll would stay here, I think that historical







CHER 12 A 6 Mayhew

SUBJECT : Carl Lambert

DATE: June 21, 1977



or somebody ought to see that a marker is put up up there, because he--in the

drama, I mean, he is depicted as one of the leading characters, which he was.

And I would have to give him credit for kind of taking Will Thomas under his

wing, because we have to give Will Thomas I guess the greater part of credit

for the Cherokees being here today, because if someone hadn't a take their

part after the Removal, I daresdy that there would beaa group of Cherokeed

intact here today. It's recorded in the courthouse at Wadesville. I've got
with me
the book number and the page number at the house, I don't have it/here now.

But it in 1827, Yoanagusta and another chief by th name of Long Blanket and

another chief by the name of Willanota, along with about 50 other Indians

signed a power of attorney, giving a man the power to act for them, some law-

yer, and in that thing it states that they were withdrawing from the Cherokee

nation and becoming citizens of the state of North Carolina and the county

of Heywood--at that time this was Heywood County over here.

Now, talking about Long--Chief Long Blanket, the records here in the

Council House of the roll of 1852, over in the margin of the pagein the rolling

book there, the agent had requested the, a group to come for a meeting. A

And it notes, with Long Blanket's name there.itsaid, "He was unable to attend

the meeting due to his age--age 100." So Long Blanket was still living in

1852. And the reason that I bring up Long Blanket, because where we're stand-

ing here today, down where the grammar school is, on the government records
are
X known as Long Blanket Tract, in other words, this land was bought for

the school here from the Long Blanket heirs. It was bought after Long Blan-

ket died, but this tract of land down through here is known as the Long

Blanket Tract. And =Willanotg, Chief Willanota, lived up about the mouth of
Wright's(?)
Rice Creek there, just up on the last creek a little bit there. But those







CHER 12 A 7 Mayhew

SUBJECT: Carl Lambert

DATE: June 21, 1977



three chiefs had declared themselves citizens of the state of North Carolina,
weren't
but several years before the Removal, so they KaIXXJ affected by the Removal.

The soldiers never came up here and bothered these people here. The Treaty

of 1819 ran the dividing ridge between the waters of the M River

and the Tennessee River. Indians living over in the Franklin area, they weren't

bothered, because they were living on the land that was ceded by treaty in

1819. Were you with us when we went to that picnic over th Snow-
?
bird/and we went over through the Johnson Gap area there, over by

then on down to Sweetwater into Robinsville. Well, down here beyond Rice

City there where the road goes to Fontana Dam, at the time of the Removal

Solly lived right inside of that bridge that you cross going towards Fontana

Dam there. At the time of the Removal, they would have stockaded a fort built

there at the forkds of the river between M and Tennessee, that

was Fort Lindsey. And they ended living in that area, were stockaded there,

and whenever they started on the removal, they KKR were taken out about

the route that we took, going out by S and through that John-

son Gap and down Sweetwater over to Fort Montgomery that was at Robinsville.

And when they got those to Robinsville, they took the Indians out of Fort

Montgomery, and if you've, want to trace a little bit of history, you can

go there to Robinsville and just go through the town out there to where that

Bemis Lumber Company sawmill is and it says, there's a sign that says "12

miles to Andrews". You just turn left and go right out up that

Gap over to Andrews there, and they've rebuilt the road in recent years, but

you can see part of the old road, and that was the road that was dug back in

1838 when they took those people XXIK from Robinsville MUK to A-- over to

Fort Delaney at Andrews, they traveled over that--you can still see parts of







CHER 12 A 8 Mayhew

SUBJECT: Carl Lambert

DATE: June 21, 1977



the old roadto where they traveled through there on the route to the Removal.

And from Andrews they went on down and joined the other ones at Murphee, and then

finally they all wound up near Chatanooga, where they loaded up and headed

for the West there.

Now Joonaluska was another famous Indian, and the drama up here

depicts him as going to the West and coming back, which is true. And when

he came back, the state of North Carolina in 1847 declared him a citizen of

the state of North Carolina and gave him a large tract of land, which, well

the whole town of Robinsville is built on the land that was given to Joona-

luska in 1847. When we were out there, you went with us up to visit his

grave there in Robinsville. So any of you folks that haven't been to Joona-

luska's grave and you're out in the area of Robinsville, why, it's--you can

drive almost to the place there and it's, they have a historical marker there.

Well, after the Removal, the ones that were left here in North Caro-

lina, they were almost leaderless,because as I said before, Yonagusta died

in April 1839, about the time that the ones that were--went to the West were

getting out there, Yonagusta died up here on Soco. So, he called in a few

of the tribal leaders before he died and told them to put their trust in Will

Thomas-who was a white man, and that Yonagusta hadalmost adopted as a son--

so the Indians did just that. After the Removal, they, whatever Will Thomas

said was, just about went with them. Well, Will Thomas was even a good busi-

ness man and he was quite a wheeler and dealer. He'd spent 7 terms in the

state legislature, and he knew the right people, and he went to bat to get
at
the monies that were due these Indians that were left here. See,/the first

the federal government t were trying to use that as a leverage to get them

all to move to the West, but... And so therefore, for a while they refused







CHER 12 A 9 Mayhew

SUBJECT: Carl Lambert
June
DATE: SHg. 21, 1977



to pay those that stayed here. But through the efforts of Thomas, he was

able to get that money, partially get the money. Because the ones that went

to the West were not only promised that 53--&52.30 each, but they were promised

subsistence for a year. Well, Thomas was able to get the $52.33 for these

Indians here, but they wouldn't pay the subsistence funds. Well, it laid up

there in Washington a-drawing interest, so when Thomas bought this land for

them, the money that Thomas got, he was, a certain percent of that land,

money, was going to buy land. But Thomas had already had -- a

lot of people don't understand the thing about, that Thomas was a wheeler a

and dealer and he was a real estate man. Well, when the state, when this

land was ceded by treaty in 1819, he had a trading post up here on, over here

on Shoal Creek there, just this side of that old mill out there on Shoal Creek,

where the Quala Post Office used to be. And he was dealing in real estate,

so he had already held a lot of this real estate, and so when the Indians

got this money, he went around and got permission from them ----- ----

pro ------------ prohibiting the Indians from owning title to the

land, so Thomas just kept the--I don't think he meant any harm or anything,

but he was the man that had the deeds to the land. Well, time went on, and

the Civil War came about and Thomas resigned from the state senate. Was made

a colonel in the Confederate Army, and he had charge of the home guard from

about Cumberland Gap up here in Kentucky south, and he had an all-- "Thomas' ",

known as "Thomas' Legion", an .all-, about an all-Indian army that kind of

patrolled this area in here for, kept your 75 miles around here.

Well, after it came,-after the Civil War was over, Thomas' mind began

to wander and he had lapses of memory, and a lot of the tribal leaders became

quite alarmed because he was losing his mind and had the deeds to the land.








CHER 12 A 10 Mayhew

SUBJECT: Carl Lambert

DATE: June 21, 1977



And, but, the straw that broke the camel's back was that he, he was a dreamer

and he had a lot of big ideas, and a lot of times they worked. So he borrowed

the, considerable sum of money from a man by the name of William Johnson.

Well, everything wasn't just rosy right after the Civil War, all these big

pipe dreams didn't pan out,and... I don't know what Thomas done with the
that
money/he borrowed, but anyhow, whatever he invested, it didn't work out and

when it come time to repay Johnson he, Thomas couldn't do it. So, Thomas,
here
I mean Johnson just went to court and, my gosh,/they were starting to foreclose

on the Indians' land! Well, the tribal leaders became-quite alarmed, and that's

where get into, start tribal government.

A group of the leading Indians got togetherin 1870 out at Sheoah

in Graham County. And Cheoah is where Beech Creek runs into Sweetwater Creek

about 3 miles this side of Robinsville,there. And they decided something

had to be done. So they set a day for an election, and they elected old Fly-

ing Squirrel, who's, was related to the here, as their

first chief. And they appealed to Washington for help. Well, Washington

sent some investigators and arbitrators down here to see what they could find

out. But, gosh, Thomas, if he'd ever had any records, the Civil War had

been fought, and things were gone, they couldn't find, most everything was

verbal that they could find out. They found out a lot of people that was

supposed to have bought the land, but they didn't have the deeds. So the

fellows worked for a couple of years or so, and finally the court, the

federal courts in Asheville in 1874 handed down a, wha t is known as the '74

Award. They found that the Cherokees had, or Thomas had gotten enough of

the Cherokees' money that he was supposed to turn over 50,000 acres of land






CHER 12 A 11 Mayhew

SUBJECT: Carl Lambert

DAT:E June 21. 1977



to the Cherokees. Well, that's where the federal government entered in.

They went a surveyor down here by the name of M. S. Temple. My great-grand-

father helped M. S. Temple survey this boundary. And they started at Soco

Gap and put in a post, survey post every half-mile. They went out this, from

Soco Gap out the Balsa Mountains there clear to the top of Smoky, the Tennes-

see line. And then they came up the Tennessee line a ways, and off down,

through and around. Now, where I live up here on the Lambert Branch now, a

according to the old survey maps, in that tract of land that I live on, is

a, it was about 88 miles around that original survey, and the &X 44-mile

post is in my survey-line up there on my--that's just an accident, but I'm

just using that to show you the extent of the boundaries that they had. Back

about, early in this year, the tribes were in straights for funds

and they sold 33,000 acres of land known as the "Love Speculation".' That's

up where Roundbottom and all that land above Big Cove in there to the lumber

interests, to raise money. I believe that I can be wrong in these figures,

but we, I think that they made a $32 payment, I think I got $32. I was born

just, I was just a few months old, so when they went to making the payments,

I was eligible, and I finally did get my money. I think by the time I got

my money, it had, the interest it drawed interest,see, it was doing like
heirs
they do a lot of these minor eSx3RK now, you know they have to become of

age, and when Igot mine, I think it was $67 that I got, but it grown from

the $32 But they, I own about 56,000 acres of

land now.

But going back a little bit to where our tribal government started in

the 1870, theyhad some lawyer-to draw up a constitution at the time. And







CHER 12 A 12 Mayhew

SUBJECT: Carl Lambert i.

DATE: June 21, 1978 -- 0lN- 2 "v AL3


in
DURING THE term of Chief Lloyd Welch,/1875, they amended the constitution,

and some people called it the Lloyd Welch Constitution. But the amendment

that they made was that it, the Council passed a resolution forming a commit-

tee that could buy land, additional lands, and add it to the land that they

had at that time. That was the,that was all that that amendment amounted to

at that time.

Well, Lloyd Welch died about 1880 and Vice Chief Nimrod Jarrod Smith,

who was the grandfather of our late Chief Jarrod Biigh here, was, took over

as chief and he served 11 years as chief, Chief Smith did. He's buried right

up here above Hall there on, on the hill there. And he did more

than any other chief MR to consolidate the-tribe here. Soon after he was
tribal
elected chief, he sent out letters to all known/members in C herokee County

and outlying areas, inviting them to come here to Cherokee and live. They

were starting, going to, starting schools here, there would e schools for
thechi d6 to. gob f Th
the children to go to. That accounted for many/of the members that had been

living in Cherokee County, and Graham and Macon Counties and other-places

to come in here to Cherokee. That was one reason that my grandfather moved

here, at the invitation of Chief Smith.

Up until about 1880, there wasn't much school. Some fellow wrote,

by the name of McCarthy, came in here about 1875 on a survey. In his findings

he states that the Cherokees were educated, very few schools, and appealed
to,
to the federal government/for help. Well, they did appropriate little

money there for one year, but it didn't go very far. They had a day school

up in the Big Cove section, I think Bob tore the old school house down and

built--preserved the logs over there in one of his houses. The, my father

went to school in JAe school--that's where my father started to school, was







CHER 12 A 13 Mayhew

SUBJECT: Carl Lambert

DATE: June 21, 1978



IN THAT Big Cove school house, about 1884. That, that, for your records,

that house was built in 1875. There was a schoolhouse, a day school, up

across the creek,on the other side of Soco Creekbehind where the old school-

house is upthere, XKXKKIaX that was where the old Macedonia Mission
was mentioned
that XMXXWmmrgXW x when I was talking about Yonagusta -a while ago was.

The left-hand side oF Soco Creek, up in there. And there was a school at

Btdtown, and one here at Cherokee, very primitive, log buildings. And then

there was one-aut in Snowbird community.

Well, Chief, under Chief Smith's, there, he, with some of his connec-

tions got ahold of Quakers, a group of Quakers from Indiana. And a contract

was written up and approved by the Council. And theytook a ten-year contract,

and they started a boarding school here. My father always said, That's

the best school that's everhere in Cherokee." And it's quiet, inerestidg,
go;
to some of the incentive-they used to get the kids to Kkh to school

&HM regularly 'Course everybody was poor back then, and getting something

for nothing would have really--they'd have appreciated it back then. They

gots lots of bolts-of real fancy-colored calico and all this stuff, you know.

You got so much cloth for every day of perfect attendance, see, and if you

missed out, why you'd, you lost all of that there time you'd built up from

the first of the month up to that, so WHMK one of the parents XYP_ told us

that they just took them by the ear and put them in the schoolroom, readyto--
all they knew,
XX, they wanted that cloth. My dad said, "Boy, they leaf in XiKM and got

the most colorful reds and shirts and all that stuff you ever saw, 'cause

SThey were good for motors too, they

knew what kind of cloth to Even in blacks, too, so that's--








CHER 12 A 1l Mayhew

SUBJECT: Carl Lambert

DAT:E June 21, 1978



the kind that stays SiiX ____ __

Another interesting thing about the school was, when the 10 years

run out--if you know anything about the Quakers, they're very strict in their

religious beliefs, and morals. Chief Smith liked to drink liquor and he liked

to play the fiddle, and he danced and chewed tobacco, all them things was a

against the Quakers, and they were quite quickly bringing him to toil about

some of his bad habits. Well, the Council passed a resolution to renew the,
now
Quakers' contract. Well, Chief Smith X the late Chief Jerry Bligh told
he,
me this, and XX that was his grandfather, and/Chief XKXfX9a3M Bligh WAS

raised right up there in his grandfather!.s yard. The old man, he was so mad

at the Quakers, by God, he vetoed the doggone bill in the Council, and couldn't

run a two-thirds majority over him, and by George, the Quakers had to leave!

That, and so that's where the federal government entered into the school

business here at Cherokee. And they bought from the tribe, all the, see,

the ten-year contract with the tribe, the federal government wasn't in the

school business until 18--after 1890. Because the tribe was paying the bills

and all for the school. So the federal government bought the buildings and

the lands and the properties from the tribe here, and they've been in the

school business ever since. I mean, they ran a boarding school here up until

the 18--I mean, 1950's and they discontinued that, and when they got the better

roads so that they could haul the children in by bus. But the history

But the history of the Cherokees has been one kind of struggle after

another, seems like about the time you get out of one thing, you get into

get into something else. The western Cherokees dissolved their tribal affairs

and went their separate ways about 1908. And some of our eastern Cherokees







CHER 12 A 15 Mayhew

SUBJECT: Carl Lambert

DATE: June 21, 1977



saw some of their western brothers with a few extra bucks, new suit and a

pair of shoes on, and they thought the old salvation getting

an allotment and dividing up the property here. So there was a big movement

under foot here to get, uh, do the same things. So in November the 6th, 1919,

the Council voted to pass a resolution for the final disposition of the land.

They wanted to set the allotment proceedings in motion here, they wanted to

get hold of money or their land or something that they could sell and get some
They
money. Well, they appealed to Washington. /, sent a government attorney down

here to see what was going on. The fellow's name was Triplet. They held

Council up here at the old auditorium, it's tore down now, they didn't have
here
any Council House. This buildingthat we're in, I rebuilt this thing/a few

years ago, but it recently built down at the, the church right across right

where the shopping center is, where Bob's shopping center is there. It,

built in 1933.

But anyhow, they were holding Council up here. My dad was just, he

wasn't in, a member of the Council, he just went down to listen. And he said

Triplet got up and talked.to the Council and told them, said, "Gentlemen,

as it. is, the federal government doesn't have any equity or any business here,

and so therefore, Congress can't appropriate any money here to defray any

expenses of the allotment." At that time, the figures that he quoted--my

father used to laugh about this --and he quoted it'd take

$50,000 to defray the expense of allotments to them! $50,000 wouldn't go

anywhere today. But Triplet jumped up, "But," he said, "I've got an answer."

Now it's old, this is BIA strategy. He said, "If you would deed the land and

trust over to the federal government," he said, "that would make it technically

federal property," and said, "We can ask Congress to appropriate the money








CHER 12 A 16 Mayhew

SUBJECT: Carl Lambert

DAT:E June 21, 1977



and we'll pay for all the expense of survey and all, any expenses that are

incurred about the allotment." So, my dad said it sounded like getting some-

thing for nothing, and boy, when they called for a vote of the Council, they

just, everyone just went--wasn't a man voted against it.

Well, you have to prepare for these fings, so there had to be a new

roll made. So the government sent a fellow by the name of Baker, Fred A.

Baker down here. My brother Frederick, my youngest brother,was named after

him. And a--, uh, your dad, you know they called him Baker all the time?

Well, that's, that's where he got that nickname Baker, after Mr. Baker that

was here. And uh, well, they made the roll. I was going to high school at

the time, and had a summer job up there. The old office was up on the hill,

and I carried out the wastepaper baskets,'and swept the office every morning

and run little errands during the day, but most of the time I was just sitting

out there reading Wild West or Jesse James stuff out there on the porch.

But they didn't have any air conditioning and they had to keep the windows

open, and I was sitting pIK about as close as Joann is here, and Baker

was just in there in the office and I could hear a lot of the conversation

that went on of the applicants that would come in. Uh, one of the amusing

things that I heard was that there was a couple come in, and the receptionist

said, "Well, Mr. Baker will see you now." And he had regular stock questions,

your name, and you r address, and your age, and etc., you know, and your degree

of Indian blood. Well, the man was doing the talking, he said, "My father

was a sixteenth, and my mother was a seventeenth," and' he said, "I'm an

eighteenth'" Jim Baker used to laugh about that

And the fellow wasn't enrolled because the guy he, when Baker begin getting






CHER 12 A 17 Mayhew

SUBJECT: Carl Lambert

DATE: June 21, 1977


the fellow,
down to the nitty-gritty there,/he couldn't produce any Indian ancestors!
was
But, one of the things about the Baker roll, the roll that/started in 1924

and ended in about 1928, was there was about 1200 names on there that the

Council didn't approve of. They claimed they were white Indians, or that

they Mountain Cherokee carrying around in Tennessee that didn't belong

on there. And they just wouldn't go along with it. so that kind of knocked

the allotment deal in the head. In desperation, about 1930, the Council

asked the Indian Bureau to help have a bill passed through Congress that

would set the allotment bill aside. It wasn't, there again, is a kind of

a joker in the deck. Uh, they kind of wanted their cake and eat it too,

you see, they wanted to get out of this predicament of not allowing the land
they
and giving each individual member his share, but/also...it's kind of like

Will Thomas having the deeds in his land, they, when they set this thing

aside, the tribe didn't get the deed to the land back. If you go down here

to the, to Bright City and go in to register at the deeds office, and ask

to see the books for or Cherokee County or Robinsville,

the federal government still's got the title to the land. And then another

joker in the deck now, this, they always hear talks that took to them trust(?).
in the world
Nowhere in there can you find on the records that it says a thing/about
that,
trustee. They've got as straight a deed to/our property right here as a

national park has got to that land right up there. And I questioned my dad,

I said, "Dad, how come them, the Tribal Council to pull a boo-boo like that,

in deeding the thing over to them?" Well, he quoted me some more out of the

thing. It said that the federal government would give each, if the allotment

bill had went through like it was planned, the federal government would give

each person a clear title to the land. And he said, "you can't give a man






CHER 12 A 18 Mayhew

SUBJECT: Carl Lambert

DATE: June 21, 1977



a clear title to the land without you have title to it yourself." He said,

"That was the reason that the, it was originally put straight into the

hands of the federal government so thatthey could in turn turn around and

give a straight title back. But you see, what the -bnes-e an, peopledie

every day and time goes on, and some years later somebody might come along

and say, 'They were some of our ancestors,'--'Move over, you don't own any-

hing here,' which is literally true." In other words, we go down here at

realty and pay, and get. a piece of paper that gives you a possession of

holdings, but all in the world that you own on that property is your, is
and
th improvements that you've got on it, your house and your fences /b your

car, or whatever is sitting there on it. As far as the land, no individual
that
member owns the land, although he may have a piece of paper that says/he

has possessory title to the land, and sometimes that's hard to get. I've

been up yonder 30-some years where I am, and I haven't ever gotten one yet.

The fellow said(?)--they'd come up there to survey one time, and running, the

line went through a stump, and the fellow that, cutting down the brush around

the stump for the fellow with the to look there killed two

copperheads, and he said, "We'll come back when the weather gets colder!"

and the weather ain't never got cold, and we had a hell of a winter last win-

ter. So I don't know whether they're ever going to come and survey my land

or not' Uh, another thing about the tribal government, uh, originally they

had 15 Council members up until 1931. 1931 the Coucil passed the resolution

amending the constitution and cut it down to six. Well, that left a sour

taste in a lot of-peoples' mouths, so that only lasted for two years. In

1933 they come back up to 12 where they are today. So those are about the

major changes that there, that the, any amendments to the constitution, was

the changing of the Council members. And another was that, originally, when







CHER 12 A 19 Mayhew

SUBJECT: Carl Lambert

DATE: June 21, 1977



they made the original constitution, they stipulated that you could be chief
degree
it you were one-fourth/of Indian blood. Uh, fellow, name of--I'm not going

to mention hid name, who wasn't too well liked, was three-eighths Indian and

was going to run for chief. But he was popular enough, he had enough relatives

to put him in. They hastily, uh, Council hastily got together and passed a

resolution amending the thing to where you had to be one-half, as it is today.

And as the feller said, that's the gospel truth. And so a lot said about
twisted
politics before, a lot of times they ExiXKXit around to suit the purpose

right at the time, see. And they never think about the consequences later

on.

Uh, another controversial thing that came about, 'bout 1932, was this

road, the Blue Ridge Parkway, you see they, uh--first they asked for a 60-
they've
foot right-of-)way to build a road down Soco, which, KKD9 got the road down

there. But they, but before they built that road, uh, the bunch went to this

Blue Ridge Parkway, they wanted to come down Soco with the Blue Ridge Park-

way, and that thing was a controversial thing for nearly ten years, I mean
over
there was an awful lot of bitter feelings INKm that. The late Red Bowers,

I guess we have to thank him for not, EMSS for that thing not coming here,

because he, I don'tthink he slept a wink many a night figuring out ways to
wipe out
st6p it. Because the whole, whole idea was, it was to/all, any kind of devel-

opment down Soco Valley then it would turn right up through here. There

wouldn't have been any Cherokee, there wouldn't have been anything up Soco

or anything but the Blue Ridge Parkway Road. So finally, it was about 1939,

theyfinally compromised and built the Blue Ridge Parkway around where it is

now, and then they, in essence what we call it a swap, got this

tract of land then for the privilege of the Blue Ridge Parkwi coming around







CHER 12 A 20 Mayhew

SUBJECT: Carl Lambert

DATE: June 21, 1977

through there where it is now.

(?): NOw would you mind going through that one more time? We got the what for

the what?

L: Uh, this boundary-tree (?) tract of land up here, see that was parkland up

until about, oh, up in the '40's there. They didn't, they didn't switch

over immediately there, it was... it was in the early '40's that they got

that tract of land up there. In 1939 the Council agreed to let them come

around through there, but they had to do a little horse-swapping around
at
there. Uh,/first, they made another'proposal first, uh..The park wanted

just the Indian tract of land up on Toast Ring, and they was,promised the

Indians here that they'd give them the right-of-way plus Toast Ring if they

would--you know where you want your golf course up yonder? and on, over on

Tight Run and all that up toward Taylor guest place was? Now they was going

to throw that all in at that time too, if they would have give them what was

on Toast Ring. Branch, you know? So that the park wouldn't

have this little island of Irdian land in the middle of it? But they, uh,

Council wouldn't go along with that, so eventually they settled for a little

less of the, this tree tract of land up here, for the

right-of-way there. And the Council did approve that 60-foot right-of-way

down Soco where that Highway 19 is now. But...

But the next controver--I guess one of the most controversial things

that ever hit this place, I was, I'm just thankful today that nobody didn't

get killed over it this (?)-. Because I was one of the judges at one of the

polling places, and a deputy and I brought the fox down here to be counted

and the agency office was over KK in that building next to where you live

now, that, just that hou--who lives in that house right next door to where

you live?






CHER 12 A 21 Mayhew

SUBJECT: Carl Lambert

DATE: June 21, 1977

(?): Housing officer.

L: Well, that's where the, that was the, that was the Agency Office at that

time. Uh, was just Indian re-organization there,

course you're familiar with it. But, uh, it wassometimes called the Howard-

Wheeler Bill because Howard and Wheeler had introduced XX

the thing. But it was the brainchild of John Collier, I -- did you ever know

the old bastard? Uh, well, he was Commissioner of Indian there for a. long

time, and he was kind of a radical sort of a fellow, and he, he ran a lot of

these wild ideas, and uh, they were almost going to--what they was, they

were going to just make all Indians conform to this particular way,uh, plan

that he had, but they played up a lot of shenanigans and stuff to sell it

to the people, and when they finally wised up on it, I mean they were really

mad, not only our tribe here, but a lot of those western tribes there where

all they--where they got into something and then they wanted out of it about

the time they got into it. Uh, it was quite interesting to--now this is the

gospel truth-- uh, just, they just built this Council down yonder in 1933

and Ron Ellias was-- in late '33 or early '34-- and it was during the Depres-

sion, boys, whenever a dollar looked as big as a wagon-wheel. And uh, if

you got any surplus commodity or anything give to you, you, fellow said,

you did'nt look a gift horse in the mouth,you took your oatmeal or graham flour
with
home/it and cooked with it, you didn't throw it in the trash, you eat it.

And so, we had a superintendent here by the name of Pote. And he was a--John

Collier really had him brainwashed and sold on this thing, and he was putting

every effort forward to see that the Indians here accepted the thing. So

they held a big rally down at the Council House, and if you see the drama
you know
up here and WXMS you know little boy/that the

wife saves? Well now, he was a real person, and he







CHER 12 A 22 Mayhew

SUBJECT: Carl Lambert

DATE: June 21, 1977

was a ancestor of all these Washingtons here, oh about--I asked Joe Washing-

ton up here, the late Joe Washington, uh, when his grandfather died he said
in
he was off at Carlisle School, it was/the 1890's. He lived upon Soco Creek

and he went across, was going over into the Big Cove section and walked

across the mountains over there. Well, there had a, some heavy rains or some-

thing, MKXKX it was in the wintertime, and it washed all of the footlogs

away, he couldn't get across the creek. So, they think that when he couldn't

get across the creek that he decided to go back home. Well, communications

were bad in those days, and thepeople, people thought that he was over visit-
in
ing XKM Big Cove. And they saw somebody running down here at Cherokee, and

asked somebody, and they said they hadn't seen him. So they got a search

party out. And back at that time there was wild hogs and stuff in there and

they think maybe the hogs ate him up. Uh, they, whet they found, they found

the bones scattered all around and just dug a grave there where they found the

bones and buried him. They don't know whether he had a heart attack,or froze

to death, or just what, but anyhow, uh, his bones are buried on what we, the

local people that knows about it call it the Washington Ridge, it's on the

ridge between the waters of Mingo and Pidgeon Creek, right down under the
crew(?)
Blue Ridge Parkway there. I sent a coups up there to clean the grave off

a time or two, back when I used to work fo r the National Park. UH, I

used to keep up the telephone line, there used to be a telephone line run

up to Pidgeon Creek there. And I'd set down by the grave lots of times and

rest, because the ridge come down and made a saddle onit, and down that way,

and when I was coming up Pidgeon there, that was the first flat place I could

find to rest. And I've mentioned it several times before, but there ought

to be some kind of a marker, they ought to put a marker on the Blue Ridge

Parkway there, and then it wouldn't be just a hop, skip and a jump to walt







CHER 12 A 23 Mayhew

SUBJECT: Carl Lambert

DATE: June 21, 1977

down the ridge there below the Parkway to the grave, but they, since they

are principle characters in the drama and really been part of Cherokee history,

there ought to be some kind of a marker, you know, to mark both Yonagusta's

grave and Washatuni's grave up there too.

But, uh, when you mention one thing here, it brings on something else.

We don't have any, a lot of our chiefs don't have any markers at their

grave. I'm sure that it would be of little bit of interest if you had a sign

by the side of the road that said, "Chief So-and-so is buried here," or that

and the other. The, uh, Chief Lloyd Welch, he's buried out in Cherokee County.
I was telling
Uh, the oldest grave--XKXKIXX=,you about cleaning off the cemeteries, the

oldest grave of, with a marker that had any writing is up here right near the

Mingo campground over on this left=hand side, MYIX on the side of the river

that the road's on,there above where Curt Jackson's house/is. Uh, the first

white settlers that settled in here settled up there because these treaty

lines started at the top of Smoky yonder at a point and ran angling through

here. So even before 1819 one of the treatylines that ran through put the
\
Big Cove section and on federal land, state land. SK So the

C% first white settlers moved farther up. The first grist mill that was ever

on this river anywhere was at the falls of Mingo there, and that Greek used
I
Sto be called NXHKX Mingo--Mingus Mill Creek. And along early in this

(J century, the tribe here sold the timber SKX off of the boundary here to a

S company by the name of Mason and Hall. And some fellows came from Mingo



) S^And uh, some fellows came from Mingo County est Virginia down here to

work in the timber. Andthey was at Mingus' Creek over here where Mingus'

Creek is now, where the mill is, and they were continually getting confused

about it, so they just started to calling-- Mingo up there and the first

thing you know, the name caught on and that's where it got the name of Mingo






CHER 12 24 Mayhew
SUBJECT: Carl Lambert
DAT:E June 21, 1977


WAS FROM THE FELLOW that came out of Mingo County, West Virginia. But the
first grist mill was-right there, that and, right opposite


4^e~ ~- bL C, dd ^^h






C^Se

























1^







CHER 12B Bridges

Page 25


of the Mingo, on the other side is

the oldest gravestone--1816. They were white people--some of the Mingus'

had started tO- come in here. Ed Conner, who is quite an eccentric kind of
that
a cuss/roamed around here back whenever I was a boy did one thing that more of

us in oral history ought to do. About 1935 he sat down and he wrote two volumes

looked like a couple of Sears and Roebuck catalogs of all of his experiences and

memories and everything. And it's the best genealogy report that I know of all

these old families that lives here. And he mentions his grandfather and all of

them being buried in that cemetery there and all over. And it's a--I'd say that

is the oldest cemetery, I mean of anybody with a grave that you know when they did

die. Now right up through here where the hospital is--all up through yonder and

on up _where they're going to build the hospital, that's

where--a solid graveyard right up through there. There used to be bones when the

old was building over here where that hospital is, there used

to be human bones all under that building there. Whenever I was a boy going to

school here, they built a new boy's dormitory up there and dug a basement there

and ever--we'd get out of school every day, we'd go out there and see how many

new bones they'd pitched out there during the day, you know. And the Indian

Bureau over here's been--they talking about

They don't know The Indian Bureau over here's

desecrated more cemeteries than the TVA ever thought about doing.



Female Voice: But you will go with us ?

L: Huh?

F: You will go with us?

L: Yes sir, if I'm able.

F: Okay.

L: We'll have to have a little ceremony up there and put up some kind of a marker.







CHER 12B Bridges

Page 26


No, there sure enough. There ought to be some kind of a marker there. I mean

it's really sad that our tribal people don't think enough of some of our great

leaders, you know, to at least, you know, put something. They don't have to

put an elaborate thing up, but just something so that future generations come

along would know who was buried there.





End of CHER 12B-Side 1





Full Text

PAGE 1

Mayhew SUBJECT:. , Carl Lambert (MONOLOGUE) 1 DATE: June 21, 1977 Well, I'm Carl Lambert, and I'm retired from the~CETA program. And uh, Mr. Carroll Wright gave a good presentation on the Historical Associa tion here, and I thought that one thing that he didn't mention was that I was the sound1engineer for the drama the first 3 years, and I'm pretty well familiar with the Historical Association and I'm::really proud of the job that they've done. I was asked to talk on Cherokee history, and then I was asked a little bit later if I would also talk on tribal government, so in my presen here this afternoon I'm going to just interrelate to both the tribal government and history right as one here, because tribal government has played really not a major part in Cherokee history since the removal. I'm/going to dwell much on history before the removal, although I will talk briefly about it. I think probably all of you have seen the drama up here, and it's a good presentation, but as we l:now, dramas can't be all historically correct, because they' re put on for dranatic purposes. When Pierman Hunter was writing the play, he bor rowed some books and material from my father to get some information in writing it. And every once in a while he would come by and try what he had written out onmy father there for size, and my fathere was continually criti cizing him for some of the stuff that he'd put down. But Kerman's answer was always, "Well, Mr. Lambert, we' re writing this for dramatic purposes, and we have to stretch the truth a little, once in a while." you So, I'm not going to try to reconvert/over some of the things that you may have seen up at the drama, because as I say, it's pretty well histor ically correct. As the drama shows, DeSoto was the, his crew was probably the first white men that the Cherokees ever laid eyes on. They came.by here about 35 miles south of here in 1540, over around Franklin, there, and the

PAGE 2

CHER12A 2 Mayhew SUBJECT: Carl Lambert DATE: June 21, 1977 fellows that were keeping records that were with DeSoto gives a pretty good account of life around Franklin at that time. They mention that mound, that N ______ Nound that's still standing over there. It's the only mound that I know of in this area that hasn't been dug into, I guess maybe it's the only one in the East, and maybe in the United States that hasn't been dug into. At the time the, DeSoto came through here, the Cherokees had about 145,000 square miles of land, and it lies partly in 8 states now. It,went clear up the ________ River there of Charleston, West Virginia up to the Ohio there. Run into Ohio at Point Pleasant, W.V. and it ran clear down the Ohio River to the dividing ridge between where the Tennessee River and the Cumberland River runs into the Ohio. The Cumberland River and the Ohio R--I mean, the Tennessee River both run into the Ohio fairly close together there. It ran down and took in just a little bit of Mississippi, on down through Alahama, around over through Georgia, and then it turned back north just, and ran just a little bit north of Atlanta and then it wheeled around and went over by Stone Mountain, back way down below Columbia, South Carolina. back up the Catawba River, back to the Blue Ridge over here. So they had quite a large area to patrol and keep track of, and the Cherokees were pretty well stationary when the white man first caine here, they had quit being nomads and wandering all over the country, they are supposedly, according to legend and history the Cherokees are related to the Iroquois and the groups of Indians up along the lakes there in New York. And they were supposed to have migrated down here, but in migrating they didn't all come down here at once. And another thing, tog, the Cherokees had to move somebody off of this land when they came here, because if you go back in time, the Cherokees were fairly late comers. They've only probably been in this area no more than

PAGE 3

CHER12a SUBJECT: Carl Lambert DATE: Jun 21, 1977 3 Mayhew 1000 or 1500 years at the very most . And I know we were digging a ditch right over here across the -river here a couple years ago to turn a branch downt through there by the Whiteshield(?) Plant and they found a grave there and the people from the University of Tennessee came over and looked at it and they said that that grave over there was, been about 600 years old, so that's about the oldest grave that we've dug up around in the area here, but Right wehere we are today, this land was ceded by treaty to the federal government in 1819. These, the Indians living here in 1835 weren't affected by th treaty of 1835, which called for the removal of the Cherokees west of the Mississippi. The drama up here leads a lot of people to believe that all the Indians had to move, which, that's one of the discrepancies that there is. They were about roughly 300 people that were, been living on state land here for about 16 years when the Treaty of was ---------signed. And according to the Treaty of 1819, if anybody read John Paris' article Sunday, there was a good article in there about the governor being and here: the governor's island down here, about ---------When they made the Treaty o_f 1819, they were using politics like they do to day in doing things. Yortagusta's(?) father was old Yonaegro,(?) Big Bear, lived down right -. about where the town of Bright City is now. And they went to these various infliential Indians and made them promises ,like . ' they would today if they was wanting to get something passed. And a lot of those Indians got concessions of 640 acres of land and were allowed to remain there. So the controversy about Yonagusta and his father, there wasn't a reason Governor Swain came over to the site down here near Bright City was. Eidently old Big Bear had sold his land down~there to a fellow by the name of Belk, and he died and of course Yonagusta thought that he still had a place down there

PAGE 4

CHER 12 A SUBJECT: Carl Lambert DATE: June 21, 1977 4 Mayhe w but Governor Swain told him that he'd help him, but you know how politicians then are, sometimes they don't XW!J do things as fast as they'd like to, and~ they're in office today and gone tomorrow. So shortly after the 1833 meeting down at Governor's Island there with Governor Swain, Yonagusta was persuaded by his white neighbors that he didn't own the land, and he moved up on Saco Creek up here, and he died in April of 1839. And this is one thing that I want you to put down and pay particular attention to: there's, I'm one of the very few people that knows where Yonagusta is buried. And they've been searching for his grave for years, and everybody's got him buried under every rockpile that there is up Soco Valley here. The records that I"ve got, and other people would have the same, access to the same record,~ 1000000( it said he was a tall man. John Paris in the article Sunday said he was 6'3", and if the grave up there is any indication as to the height of the man, he was every bit of that, if not more. And it says that he was buried about a mile from the old mission. Well, most people get so mixed up about the old mission, but this is the Old Missions Road right up here by t the Basser Plant. But the old mission, Macedonia Mission, wasn't there. It was up ~across, right over behind where the old Saco Schoql is over there, near where Walter, the late chief Walter Jackson lived. Well, and it doesn't say exactly a mile, it, the record says, "about a mile." So , that could be more than a mile or less than a mile. But if you know the country up there, that is about a mile down there to about where the Basser ,1ant is. There's a cemetery out behind the Basser Plant there, it's known as the Hornbuckle Cemetery because Israel Hornbuckle, and Israel's Hornbuckle's grandfather. and great-grandfather are all buried out there in that cemetery. About 10 years ago, I was the director of a program they call the N~ ________ _

PAGE 5

CHER 12 A SUBJECT: Carl Lambert DATE: june 21, 1977 Program, and I had about 40 men, for t-hingsto do, and we trimmed 5 Mayhew and broke up into 4 crews. And we were looking off Hit up the river banks, cleaned/106 different and then cemeteries; some of them maybe on:hy one person buried there,/some of them, we the cemetery,DHXR were cleaning almost hundreasof them. Well,, I was in the office most of the time, butI'd go out frequently and visit the crews, and sometimes I'd take my lunch and sit down with them at dinnertime. And eat, and talk to them about who was buried in that cemetery. And I collected up a lot of data on cemeteries and it took two issues of the --------here to carry the inf--the cemetery~information that I gave them. Well, I was always asking questions about who was buried here, and ofte daywe were Ill[ eating dinner in this cemetery back of the Basser Plant.And if a Hornbuckle up came out there, and I thought then that we were/in the vicinity where they I would said that Yonagusta was buried, that~ ask Israel if he'd ever heard any 7 thing about where Yonagu!=lta was buried. "Oh," he said, "sure," he said we were sitting within 200 teet, he said. And he said about his grandfather was alive at the time. And he just walked out there, and there was a sunken down place there. And the record says that when they buried him that they p piled small stones all over the grave. Well, we dug the leaves out of that thing there, and that grave was sunk down, oh,~ 2 feet that, that, in or so downt in there, and there was all these small rocks laying on/that gr grave there. And it, that grave had never, no dirt had ever been put in that grave, made a list. And he didn't hesitate, he didn't stutter around about it, he•said, he said:, "Sure, right aut,'c' he said, "it's right out or anything that there." There's no marker/there, and the reason/I'm telling you what I do -----------I might drop dead standing here before I get out of here. And I was hoping that Carroll would stay here, I thinkg that historical

PAGE 6

CHER 12 A SUBJECT : Carl Lambert DATE: June 21, 197'7 6 Mayhew or somebody ought to see that a marker is put up up there, because he--in the drama, I mean, he is depicted as one of the leading characters, which he was. And I would have to give him credit for kind of taking Will Thomas under his wing, because we have to give Will Thomas I guess the greates part of credit for the Cherokees being here today, because if someone hadn't a take their part after the Removal, I daresay that there would beaa group of Cherokees intact here today. It's recorded in the courthouse at Wadesvill~. I've got with me the book numFer and the page number at the house, I don't have it/here now. But it in 1827, Yoanagusta and another chief by th name of Long Blanket and another chief by the name of Willanota, along with about 50 other Indians signed a power of attorney, giving a man the power to act for them, some law yer, and in that thing it states that they were withdrawing from the Cherokee nation and becoming citizens of the state of North Carolina and the county of Heywood--at than time this was Heywood County over here. Now, talking about Long--Chief Long Blanket, the records here in the Council House of the roll of 1852, over in the margin of the pagein the rolling book there, the agent had requested the, a group to come for a meeting. A And it notes, with Long Blanket's name there.itsaid, "He was unable to attend the neeting due to his age--age 100." So Long Blanket was still living in 1852. And the reason that I bring up Long Blanket, because where we're stand ing here today, down where the grammar school is, on the government records are DC known as Long Blanket Tract, in othere words, this land was bought for the school here from the Long Blanket heirs. It was bought after Long Blan ket died, but this tract of land down through here is known as the Long Blanket Tract. And =Willanoti, Chief Willanota, lived up about the mouth of Wright's(?) Rice Creek there, just up on the last creek a littl bit there. But those

PAGE 7

CHER 12 A SUBJECT: Carl Lambert DATE: June 21, 1977 7 Mayhew three chiefs had declared themselves citizens of the state of North Carolina, weren't but several years before the Removal, so they Bffltt affected by the Removal. The soldiers never came up here and bothered these people here. The Treaty of 1819 ran the dividing ridge between the waters of the M ______ River and the Tennessee River. Indians living over in the Franklin area, they weren't bothere4, because they were living on the land that was ceded by treaty in 1819. Were you with us when we went to ----that picnic over th Snow? bird/and we went over through the Johnson Gap area there, over by then on down to Sweetwater into Robinsvi.lle. Well, down here beyond Rice City there where the road goes to Fontana Dam, at the time of the Removal Solly lived right inside of that bridge that you cross going towards Fontana Dam there. At the time of the Removal, they would have stockaded a fort built there at the forkds of the river between M and Tenaessee, that -------was Fort Lindsey. And they ended living in that area, were stockaded there, and whenever they started on the removal, they Ufil<. were taken out about the route that we took, going out bys _______ _ and through that Johnson Gap and down Sweetwater over to Fort Montgomery that was at Robinsville. And when they got those to Robinsville, they took the Indians out of Fort Montgomery, and if you've, want to trace a little bit of history, you can go there to Robinsville and just go through the town out there to where that Bemis Lumber Company sawmill is , and it says, there's a sign that says •~12 miles to Andrews". You just turn left and go right out up that _______ _ Gap over to Andrews there, and they've rebuilt the road in recent years, but you can see part of the old road, and that was the road that was dug back in 1838 when they took those people DU from Robinsville to A-over to Fort Delaney at Andrews, they traveled over that--you can still see parts of

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CHER 12 A SUBJECT: Carl Lambert DATE: June 21, 1977 8 Mayhew the old roadto where they traveled through there on the route to the Removal. And from Andrews they went on down and joined the other ones at Murphee, and then finally they all wound up near Chatanooga, where they loaded up and headed for the West there. Now Joonaluska was another famous Indian, and the drama up here depicts him as going to the West and coming back, which is true. And when he came back, the state of North Carolina in 1847 declared him a citizen of the state of North Carolina and gave him a large tract of land, which, well the whole town of Robinsville is built on the land that was given to Joona luska in 1847. When we were out there, you went with us up to visit his grave there in Robinsville. So any of you folks that haven't been to Joona luaka's grave artd you're out in the area of Robinsville, why, it's--you can drive almost to the place there and it's, they have a historical marker there. Well, after the Removal, the ones that were left here in North Caro lina, they were almost leaderless,because as I said before, Yonagusta died in April 1839, about the time that the ones that were--went to the West were getting out there, Yonagusta died up here on Soco. So, he called in a few of the tribal leaders before he died and told them to put their trust in Will Thomas-who was a white man, and that Yonagusta hadalmost adopted as a sonso the Indians did just that. After the Removal, they, whatever Will Thomas said was, just about went with them. Well, Will Thomas was even a good busi ness man and he was quite a wheeler and dealer. He'd spent 7 terms in the state legislature; and he knew the right people, and he went to bat to get at the monies that were due these Indians that were left here. See,/the first the federal government were trying to use that asa leverage to get them all to move to the West, but And so therefore, for a while they refused

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CHER 12 A SUBJECT: Carl L:mmbert June DATE: ~. 21, 1977 9 Mayhew to pay those that stayed here. But throught the efforts of Thomas, he was able to get that money, partially get the money. Because the ones that went to the West . were not only promised that 53--&52.30 each, but they were promised subsistence for a year. Well, Thomas was able to get the $52.33 for these Indians here, but they wouldn't pay the subsistence funds. Well, it laid up there in Washington a-drawing interest, so when Thomas bought this land for them, the money that Thomas got, he was, a certain percent of that land, money, was going to buy land. But Thomas had already had -a ------lot of people don't understand the thing about, that Thomas was a wheeler a and dealer and he was a real estate man. Well, when the state, when this land was ceded by treaty in 1819, he had a trading post up here on, over here on Shoal Creek there, just this side of that old mill out there on Shoal Creek, where the Quala Post Office used to be. And he was dealing in real estate, so he had already held a lot of this real estate, and so when the Indians got this money, he went around and got permission from them-------------pro -----------prohibiting the Indians from owning title to the land, so Thomas just kept the--i don't think he meant any harm or anything, but he was the man that: had the deeds to the land. Well, time went on, and the Civil War catne about and Thomas resigned from the state senate. Was made a colonel in the Confederate Army, and he had charge of the home guard from about Cumberland Gap up here in Kentucky south, and he had an all-"Thomas' ", known as "Thomas' Legion", an .all-, about an all-Indian army that kind of patrolled this area in here for, kept your 75 miles around here. Well, after it catne,-after the Civil War was over, Thomas' mind began to wander and he had lapses of memory, and a lot of the tribal leaders became quite alarmed because he was losing his mind and had the deeds to the land.

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CHER 12 A SUBJECT: Carl Lambert DATE: June 21, 1977 10 Mayhew And, but, the straw that broke the camel's back was that he, he was a dreamer and he had a lot of big ideas, and a lot of times they worked. So he borrowed the, considerable sum of money from a man by the name of William Johnson. Well, everything wasn't just rosy right after the Civil War, all these big pipe dreams didn't pan out,and I don't know what Thomas done with the that money/he borrowed, but anyhow, whatever he invested, it didn't work out and when it come time to repay Johnson he, Thomas couldn't do it. So, Thomas, here I mean Johnson just went to court and, my gosh,/they were starting to foreclose on the Indians' land! Well, the tribal leaders became quite alarmed, and that's where get into, start tribal government. A group of the leading Indians got togetherin 1870 out at Sheoah in Graham County. And Cheoah is where Beech Creek runs into Sweetwater Creek about 3 miles this side of Robinsville,there. And they decided something had to be done. So they set a day for an election, and they elected old Flying Squirrel, who's, was related to the _________ here, as their first chief. And they appealed to Washington for help. Well, Washington sent some investigators and arbitrators down here to see what they could find out. But, gosh, Thomas, if he'd ever had any records, the Civil War had been fought, and things were gone, they couldn't find, most everything was verbal that they could find out. They found out a lot of people that was supposed to have bought the land, but they didn't have the deeds. So the fellows worked for a couple of years or so, and finally the court, the federal courts in Asheville in 1874 handed down a, what is known as the '74 A~ard. They found that the Cherokees had, or Thomas had gotten enough of the Cherokees' money that he was supposed to turn over 50,000 acres of land

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------------------CHER 12 A SUBJECT: Carl Lambert DAT:E June 21. 1977 11 Mayhew to the Cherokees. Well, that's where the federal government entered in. They went a surveyor down here by the name of M. S. Temple, My great-grand father helped M. S. Temple survey this boundary .And they started at Saco Gap and put in a post, survey post every half-mile. They went out this, from Soco Gap out the Balsa Mountains there clear to the top of Smoky, the Tennes see line .And then they came up the Tennessee line a ways, and off down, through and around. Now, where I live up here on the Lambert Branch now, a according to the old survey maps, in that tract of land that I live on, is a, it was about 88 miles around that original survey, and the J{fi 44-mile post is in my survey-line up there on my--that's just an accident, but I'm just using that to show you the extent of the boundaries that they had. Back about, early in this year, the tribes were in straights for funds -----and they sold 33,000 acres of land known as the "Love Speculation''.' That's up where Roundbottom and all that land above Big Cove in there to the lumber interests, to raise money. I believe that I can be wrong in these figures, but we, I think that they made a $32 payment, I think I got $32. I was born just, I was just a few months old, so when they went to making the payments, I was eligible, and I finally did get my money. I think by the time I got my money, it had, the interest , it drawed interest,see, it was doing like heirs they do a lot of these minor MRffiXK'now, you know, they have to become of age, and when Igot mine, I think it was $67 that I got, but it grown from the $32 __________ _ But they, I own about 56,000 acres of land now. But going back a little bit to where our tribal government started in the 1870, theyhad some lawyer-to draw up a constitution at the time .And

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CHER 12 A SUBJECT: Carl Lambert DATE: June 21, 1978 12 Mayhew in DURING THE term of Chief Lloyd Welch,/1875, they amended the constitution, and some people called it the Lloyd Welch Constitution. But the amendment that they made was that it, the eouncil passed a resolution forming a commi~ tee that could buy land, additional lands, and add it to the land that they had at that time. That was the,that was all that that amendment amounted to at that time. Well, Lloyd Welch died about 1880 and Vice Chief Nimrod Jarrod Smith, who was the grandfather of our late Chief Jarrod Bligh here, was, took over as chief and he served 11 years as chief, Chief Smith did. He's buried right up here aboue Hall there on, on the hill there. And he did more ----than any other chief llR to consolidate the_tribe here. Soon after he was tribal elected chief, he sent out letters to all known/members in Cherokee County and outlying areas, inviting them to come here to Cherokee and live. They were starting, going to, starting schools here, there would ~e-~chools for .*f~ot>~ l the children to go to. That accounted for many/of the members that had been living in Cherokee County, and Graham and Macon Counties and other~places to come in here to Cherokee. That was one reason that my grandfather moved here, at the invitation of Chief Smith. Up until about 1880, there wasn't much school. Some fellow wrote, by the name of McCarthy, came in here about 1875 on a survey. In his findings he states that the Cherokees were educated, very few schools, and appealed to, to the federal government/for help. Well, they did appropriate alitlle money there for one year, but it didn't go very far. They had a day school up in the Big Cove section, I think Bob tore the old school house down and built--preserved the logs over there in one of his houses. The, my father -t~ went to school in Jiee school--that's where my father started to school, was

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CHER 12 A SUBJECT: Carl Lambert DATE: June 21, 1978 13 Mayhew IN THAT Big Cove school house, about 1884. ' That, that, for your records, that house was built in 1875. There was a schoolhouse, a day school, up across the creek,on the other side of Soco Creekbehind where the old school house is upthere, that was where the old Macedonia Mission was mentioned that when I was talking about Yonagusta a w hile ago was. The left-hand side oF Soco Creek, up in there. And there was a school at U Btdtown, and one here at Cherokee, very primitive, log buildings. And then there was one~out in Snowbird co11UUunity. Well, Chief, uhder Chief Smith's, there, he, with some of his connec tions got ahold of Qua}ters, a group of Quake : rs from Indiana. And a contract was written up and approved by the Council. And theytook a ten-year contract, and they started a boarding school here. My father always said, " That's the best school that's everhere in Cherokee." And it's quiet inerestirlg, go , to , some of the incentive~they used to get the kids to filfil.A to school mi regularly ' Course everybody was poor back then, and getting something for nothing would have really--they'd have appreciated it back then. They gots lots of bolts of real fancy-colored calico and all this stuff, you know. You got so much cloth for every day of perfect attendance, see, and if you missed out, why you'd, you lost all of that there time you'd built up from the first of the month up to that, so one of the parents~told us that they just took them by the ear and put them in the schoolroom, readyto-all they knew, max, they wanted that cloth. My dad said, "Boy, they leaf in XKMXK and got the most colorful reds and shirts and all that stuff you ever saw, 'cause They were good for motors too, they knew what kind of cloth to________ Even in. blacks; too, so that's-

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CHER. 12 A SUBJECT: Carl Lambert DAT:E June 21, 1978 the kind that stays KK'st)KXHXt Mayhew Another interesting thing about the school was, when the 10 years run out--if you know anyt;hing about the Quakers, they're very strict in their religious beliefs, and morals. Chief Smith liked to drink liquor and he liked to play the fiddl:e, and he danced and chewed. tobacco, all them things was a against the Quakers, and they were quite quickly bringing him to toil about some of his bad habits. Well, the Council passed a resolution to renew the, now Quakers' contract. Well, Chief Smith XU the late Chief Jerry Bligh told he, me this, and ll that was his grandfather, and/Chief~ Bligh WAS raised right up there in his grandfather! . s yard. The old man, he was so mad at the Quakers, by God, he vetoed the doggone bill in the Council, and couldn't run a two-thirds majority over him, and by George, the Quakers had to leave! That, and, so that's where the federal government entered into the school business here at Cherokee. And they bought from the tribe, all the, see, the ten-year contract with the tribe, the federal government wasn't in the school business until 18--after 1890. Because the tribe was paying the bills and all for the school. So the federal government bought the buildings and the lands and the properties from the tribe here, and they've been in the school business ever since. I mean, they ran a boarding schoml ~ere up until the 18--I mean, 1950 1 s and they discontinued that, and when they got the better roads so that they could haul the children in by bus. But the histor But the history of the Cherokees has been one kind of struggle after another, seems like about the time you get out of one thing, you get into get into something else. The western therokees dissolved their tribal affairs and went their separate ways about 1908. And some of our eastern Cherokees

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CHER 12 A SUBJECT: Carl Lambert DATE: June 21, 1977 15 Mayhew saw some of their western brothers with a few extra bucks, new suit and a pair of shoes on, and they thought the old salvation getting -------an allotment and dividing up the property here. So there was a big movement under foot here to get, uh, do the same things. So in November the 6th, 1919, the Council voted to pass a resolution for the final disposition of the land. They wanted to set the allotment proceedings in motion here, they wanted to get hold of money or .their land or something that they could sell and get some They money. Well, they appealed to Washington. /~ sent a government attorney down here to see what was going on. The fellow's name was Triplet. They held Council up here at the old auditorium, it's tore down now, they didn't have here any Council House. This buildingthat we're in, I rebuilt this thing/a few years ago, but it recently built down at the, the church right across right where the shopping center is, where Bob's shopping center is there. It, built in 1933. But anyhow, they were holding Council up here. My dad was just, he wasn't in, a member of the Council, he just went down to listen. And he said Triplet got up and talked to the Council and told them, said, "Gentlemen, as it. is, the federal government doesn't have any equity or any business here, and so therefore, Congress can't appropriate any money here to defray any expenses of the allotment." At that time, the figures that he quoted--my father used to laugh about this --and he quoted it'd take --------$50,000 to defray the expense of allotments to them! $50,000 wouldn't go anywhere today. But Triplet jumped up, "But," he said, "I've got an answer." Now it's old, this is BIA strategy. He said, "If you would deed the land and trust over to the federal government," he said, "that would make it technically federal property," and said, "We can ask Congress to appropriate the money

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CHER 12 A SUBJECT: Carl Lambert DAT:E June 21, 1977 16 Mayhew and we'll pay for all the expense of survey and all, any expenses that are incurred about the allotment. 11 So, my dad said it sounded like getting some thing for nothing, and boy, when they called for a vote of the Council, they just, everyone just went--wasn't a man voted against it. Well, you have to prepare for these things, so there had to be a new roll made. So the government sent a fellow by the name of Baker, Fred A. Baker down here. My brother Frederick, ray youngest brother,was named after him. And a--, uh, your dad, you know they called him Baker all the time? Well, that's, that's where he got that nickname Baker, after Mr. Baker that was here. And uh, well, they made the roll. I was going to high school at the time, and had a summer job up there. The old office was up on the hill, and I carried out the wastepaper baskets,and swept the office every morning and run little errands during the day, but most of the time I was just sitting out there reading Wild West or . Jesse James stuff out there on the porch. But they didn't have any air conditioning and they had to keep the windows open, and I was sitting~ about as close as Joann is here, and Baker was just in there in the office and I could hear a lot of the conversation that went on of the applicants that would come in. Uh, one of the amusing things that I heard was that there was a couple come in, and the receptionist said, 11 Well, Mr. Baker will see you now. 11 And he had regular stock questions, your name, and your address, and your age, and etc., you know, and your degree of Indian blood. Well, the man was doing the talking, he said, 11 My father was a sixteenth, and my mother was a seventeenth, 11 and ' : he said, 11 1:' m an eighteenth!" Jim Baker used to laugh about that ____________ _ And the fellow wasn't enrolled because the guy he, when Baker begin getting

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CHER 12 A SUBJECT: Carl Lambert DATE: June 21, 1977 17 Mayhew the fellow, down to the nitty-gritty there,/he couldn't produce any Indian ancestors! was But, one of the things about the Baker roll, the roll that/started in 1924 and ended in about 1928, was there was about 1200 names on there that the Council didn't approve of. They claimed they were white Indians, or that they, Mountain Cherokee carrying around in Tennessee that didn't belong on there. And they just wouldn't go along with it. so that kind of knocked the allotment deal in the head. In desperation, about 1930, the Council asked the Indian Bureau ~o help have a bill passed through Congress that would set the allotment pill aside. It wasn't, there again, is a kind of a joker in the deck. Uh, they kind of wanted their cake and eat it too, you see, they wanted to get out of this predicament of not alloting the land they and giving each individual member his share, but/also it's kind of like Will Thomas having the deeds in his land, they, when they set this thing aside, the tribe didn't get the deed to the land back. If you go down here to the, to Bright City and go in to register at the deeds office, and ask to see the books for or Cherokee County or Robinsville, -------the federal government still's. got the title to the land. And then another joker in the deck now, this, they always hear talks that tool to them trust(?). in the world Nowhere in there can you find on the records that it says a thing/about that, trustee. They've got as straight a deed to/our property right here as a national park has got to that land right up there. And I questioned my dad, I said, "Dad, how come them, the Tribal Council to pull a boo-boo like that, in deeding the thing over to them?" Well, he quoted me some more out of the thing. It said that the federal government would give each, if t9e allotment bill had went through like it was planned, the federal government would give each person a clear title to the land. And he said, "you can't give a man

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,----------------------------------------.. CHER 12 A SUBJECT: Carl Lambert DATE: June 21, 1977 18 Mayhew a clear title to the land without you have title t:o it yourself." He said, "That was the reason that the, it was originally put straight into the hands of the federal government so thatthey could in turn turn around and b L.t. .-_, s rY\ e.., give a straight title back~ But you see, what the bool<.s mean, people.die every day and time goes on, and some years later somebody might come along and say, 'They were some of our ancestors,'--'Move over, you don't own anyhing here,' which is literally true. 9 In other word~, we go down here at realty and pay, and get. a piece of paper that gives you a possession of holdings, but all in the world that you own on that property is your, is and th improvements that you've got on it, your house and your fences/, your car, or whatever is sitting there on it. As far as the land, no individual that member owns the land, although he may have a piece of paper that says/he has possessory title to the land, and sometimes that's hard to get. I've been up yonder 30-some years where I am, and I haven't ever gotten one yet. The fellow said(?)--they'd come up there to survey one time, and running, the line went through a stump, and the fellow that, cutting down the brush around the stump for the fellow with the to look there killed two -------copperheads, and he said, "We' 11 come back when the weather gets colder!" and the weather ain't never got cold, and we had a hell of a winter last win ter. So I don't know whether they're ever going to come and survey my land ot not! Uh, another thing about th e tribal government, uh, orignally they had 15 Council members up until 1931. 1931 the Coucil passed the resolution amending the constitution and cut it down to six. Well, that left a sour taste in a lot ofpeoples' mouths, so that only lasted for two years. In 1933 they come back up to 12 where they are today. So those are about the major changes that there, that the, any amendments to the constitution, was the changing of the Council members. And another was that, originally, when

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CHER 12 A SUBJECT: Carl Lambert DATE: June 21, 1977 19 Mayhew they made the original constitution, they stipulated that you could be chief degree it you were one-fourth/of Indian blood. Uh, fellow, name of--I'm not going to mention his name, who wasn't too well . liked, was three-eighths Indian and was going to run for chief. But he was popular enough, he had enough relatives to put him in. They hastily, uh, Council hastily got together and passed a resolution amending the thing to where you had to be one-half, as it is today. And as the feller said, that's the gospel truth. And so a lot said about twisted politics before, a lot of times they HIUXtt around to suit the purpose right at the time, see. And they never think about the consequences later on. Uh, another controversial thing that came about, 'bout 1932, was this road, the Blue Ridge Parkway, you see they, uh--first they asked for a 60they've foot right~of:Jway to build a road down Soco, which, KKlijf got the road down there. But they, but before they built that road, uh, the bunch went to this Blue Ri~ge Parkway, they wanted to come down Soco with the Blue Ridge Park way, and that thing was a controversial thing for nearly ten years, I mean over there was an awful lot of bitter feelings KXKKX that. The late Red Bowers, I guess we have to thank him for not,~ for that thing not coming,here, becauge he, I don'tthink he slept a wink many a night figuring out ways to wipe out stop it. Because the whole, whole idea was, it was to/all, any kind of development down Saco Valley, then it would turn right up through here. There wouldn't have been any Cherokee, there wouldn't have been anything up Soco or anything but the Blue Ridge Parkway Road. So finally, it was about 1939, theyfinally compromised and built the Blue Ridge Parkway around where it is now, and then they, in essence what we call it a swap, got this tract of land then for the privilege of the Blue Ridge P arkwaf'f')oming around

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CHER 12 A SUBJECT: Carl Lambert DATE: June 21, 1977 through there where it is now. 20 Mayhew (?): NOw would you mind going through that one more time? We got the what for L: the what? Uh, this boundarr-tree (?) tract of land up here, see that was parkland up until about, oh, up in the '40's there. They didn't, they didn't switch over immediately there, it was it was in the early '40's that they got that tract of land up there. In 1939 the Council agreed to let them come around through there, but they had to do a little horse-swapping around at there. llh,/first, they made another-proposal first, uh The park wanted just the Indian tract of land up on Toast Ring, and they was,promised the Indians here that they'd give them the right-of-way plus Toast Ring if they would--you know where you want your golf course up yonder? and on, over on Tight Run and all that up toward Taylor guest place was? Now they was going to throw that all in at that time too, if they would have give them what was on Toast Ring. -------Branch, you know? So that the park wouldn't have this little island of Indian land in the middle of it? But they, uh, Council wouldn't go along with that, so eventually they settled for a little less of the, this _________ tree tract of land up here, for the right-of-way there. And the Council did approve that 60-foot right-of-way down Saco where that Highway 19 is now. But But the next controver--I guess one of the most controversial things that ever hit this place, I was, I'm just thankful today that nobody didn't get killed over it this(?)-. Because I was one of the judges at one of the polling places, and a deputy and I brought the fox down here t o be counted and the agency office was over XK in that building next to where you live now, that, just that hou--who lives in that house right next door to where you live?

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CHER 12 A SUBJECT: Carl Lambert DATE: June 21, 1977 (?): Housing officer. 21 Mayhew L: Well, that's where the, that was the, that was the Agency Office at that time. Uh, was just Indian re-organization there, -----------' course you're familiar with it. But, uh, it wassometimes called the HowardWheeler Bill because _________ Howard and Wheeler had introduced ll the thing. But it was the brainchild of John Collier, I -did you ever know the old bastard? Uh, well, he was Commissioner of Indian there for a.long time, and he was kind of a radical sort of a fellow, and he, he ran a lot of these wild ideas, and uh, they were almost going to--what they was, they were going to just maRe all Indians conform to this particular way,uh, plan that he had, but they played up a lot of shenanigans and stuff to sell it to the people, and when they finally wised up on it, I mean they were really mad, not only our tribe here, but a lot of those western tribes there where all they--where they got into something and then they wanted out of it about the time they got into it. Uh, it was quite interesting to--now this is the gospel truth-uh, just, they just built this Council down yonder in 1933 and Ron Ellias was-in late '33 or early '34-and it was during the Depres sion, boys, whenever a dollar looked as big as a wagon-wheel. And uh, if you got any surplus commodity or anything give to you, you, fellow said, you did'nt look a gift horse in the mouth,you took your oatmeal or g~aham flour with home/it and cooked with it, you didn't throw it in the trash, you eat it. And so, we had a superintendent here by the name of Pote. And he was a--John Collier really had him brainwashem and sold on this thing, and he was putting every effort forward to see that the Indians here accepted the thing. So they held a big rally down at the Council House, and if you see the drama you know up here and XKKK you know ___________ little boy/that the wife saves? Well now, he was a real person, and he -----------

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------------------------. ---CHER 12 A SUBJECT: Carl Lambert DATE: June 21, 1977 22 Mayhew was a ancestor of all these Washingtons here, oh about--! asked Joe Washing ton up here, the late Joe Washington, uh, when his grandfather•died he said in he was off at Carlisle School, it was/the 1890's. He lived upon Soco Creek and he went across, was going over into the Big Cove section and walked across the mountains over there. Well, there had a, some heavy rains or something, XKnKX it was in the wintertime, and it washed all of the footlogs away; he couldn't get across the creek. So, they think that when he couldn't get across the creek that he decided to go back home. Well, communications were bad in those days, and thepeople, people thought that he was over visitin ing KKK Big Cove. And they saw somebody running down here at Cherokee, and asked somebody, and they said they hadn't seen him. So they got a search party out. And back at that time there was wild hogs and stuff in there and they think maybe the pogs ate him up. Uh, they, when they found, they found the bones scattered all around and just dug a grave there where they found the bones and buried him. They don't know whether he had a heart attack,or froze to death, or just what, but anyhow, uh, his bones are buried on what we, the local people that knows about it call it the Washington Ridge, it's on the ridge between the waters of Mingo and Pidgeon Creek, right down under the crew(?) Blue Ridge Parkway there. I sent a coups up there to clean the grave off a time or two, back when I used to work for the National Park. UH, I used to keep up the telephone line, there used to be a telephone line nun up to Pidgeon Creek there. And I'd set down by the grave lots of times and rest, because the ridge come down and made a saddle onit, and down that way, and when I was coming up Pidgeon there, that was the first flat place I could find to rest. And I've mentioned it several times before, but there ought to be some kind of a marker, they ought to put a marker on the Blue Ridge Parkway there, and then it wouldn't be just a hop, skip and a jump to wal~ ----------------

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I CHER. 12 A SUBJECT: Carl Lambert DATE: June 21, 1977 23 Mayhew down the ridge there below the Parkway to the grave, but they, since they are principle characters in the drama and really been part of Cherokee history, there ought to be some kind of a marker, you know, to mark both Yonagusta's grave and Washatuni's grave up there too. But, uh, when you mention one thing here, it brings on something else. We don't have any, a lot of our chiefs don't have any markers at their. grave. I'm sure that it would be of little bit of interest if you had a sign by the side of the road that said, "Chief So-and-so is buried here," or that and the other. 'fhe, uh, Chief Lloyd Welch, he's buried out in Cherokee County. I was telling Uh, the oldest grave--ttxxxKn.X•you about cleaning off the cemeteries, the oldest grave of, with a marker that had any writing is up here right near the Mingo campground over on this left=hand side,~ on the side of the river that the road's on,there above where Curt Jackson's hous~. m,, the first white settlers that settled in here settled up there because these treaty lines started at the top of Smoky yonder at a point and ran angling through here. So even before 1819 one of the treatylines that ran through put the Big Cove section~and on federal land, state land.~ -----So the first white settlers moved farther up. The first grist mill that was ever on this river anywhere was at the falls of Mingo there, and that Creek used ~1 to be called MKHiX IV century, the tribe here sold the timber XXX off of the boundary here to a Mingo--Mingus Mill Creek. And along early in this company by the name of Mason and Hall. And some fellows came from Mingo/ Jt V uh, some fellows came from Mingo &~"G~~-CountyMst Virginia down here to work in the timber. Andthey was at Mingus' Creek over here where Mingus' Creek is now, where tme mill is, about it, so they just started to and they were continually getting confused yA..tf calling .1,1: Mingo up there and the first thing you know, the name caught on and that's where it got the name of Mingo

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CHER 12 /6 SUBJECT: Carl Lambert DAT:E June 21, 1977 24 Mayhew WAS FROM THE FELLOW that came out of Mingo County, West Virginia. But the first grist mill wasright there, that and, right oppoatie

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CHER 12B Page 25 of the Mingo, on the other side ------Bridges is -------------the oldest gravestone--1816. They were white people--some of the Mingus' had started C6~come in here. Ed Conner, who is quite an eccentric kind cif that a cuss/roamed around here back whenever I was a boy did one thing that more of us in oral history ought to do. About 1935 he sat down and he wrote two volumes looked like a couple of Sears and Roebuck catalogs of all of hs experiences and memories and everything. And it's the best genealogy report that I know of all these old families that lives here. And he mentions his grandfather and all of them being buried in that cemetary there and all over. And it's a--I'd say that is the oldest cemetary, I mean of anybody with a grave that you know when they did die. Now right up through here where the hospital is--all up through yonder and on up ______________ where they're going to build the hospital, that's where--a solid graveyard right up through there. There used to be bones when the old was building over here where that hospital is, there used ---------to be human bones all under that building there. Whenever I was a boy going to school here, they built a new boy's dormitory up there and dug a basement there and ever--we'd get out of school every day, we'd go out there and see how many new bones they'd pitched out there during the day, you know. And the Indian Bureau over here's been--they talking al:out -----------------They don't know ____________ _ The Indian Bureau over here's desecrated more cemetaries than the TVA ever thought about doing. Female Voice: But you will go with us L: . Huh? F: You will go with us? L: Yes sir, if I'm able. F: Okay. ? ----------------L: We'll have to have a little ceremony up there and put up some kind of a marker.

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CHER 12B Page 26 Bridges No, there sure enough. There ought to be some kind of a marker there. I mean it's really sad that our tribal people don't think enough of some of our great leaders, you know, to at least, you know, put something. They don't have to put an elaborate thing up, but just something so that future generations come along would know who was buried there. End of CHER 12B-Side 1