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Interview with Leroy Blue, February 3, 1994

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Title:
Interview with Leroy Blue, February 3, 1994
Creator:
Blue, Leroy ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:
Language:
English

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Catawba Indians -- Florida
Kataba Indians -- Florida
Catawba Oral History Collection ( local )

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Funding:
This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

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Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'Catawba' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
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Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/.

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UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT


Interviewee: Leroy Blue
Interviewer: Emma Echols
February 3, 1994
CAT 232



Leroy Blue is the oldest son of Chief Samuel Blue. In this
interview he recalls the story of how his brother Harvey was killed
while hunting his father's reaction^ job as a guard at the
Rock Hilllinting andfinishing plant. e h










Inte 'ewee: Mr. Leroy Bue

Interviewer: Echols

Date of erview: Feuary 3, 1994

C 232a



E: This is Emma Echols, 5150 Sharon Road, Charlotte, North

Carolina. This is February 3, 1994. I am visiting at the

home of the oldest son of Chief Samuel Blue, Mr. Leroy Blue.

His home is filled with pictures and memories of the past.

I see children and grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and

he is so proud of them because not a single one of them has

been in any trouble with the law or the officials of any

kind. They have gone to school, they have made good in the

world, and it is largely due to this home and the other

homes associated with his family that have trained up these

children in the way that they should go. So he sits here

surrounded by a wall filled with pictures, and on the wall

over there was a small picture of Harvey. Harvey was the

middle one in the big family that Chief Blue had, and Leroy

was the oldest son. So I want him to tell us all what he

remembers about his brother, Harvey.

B: Mrs. Echols wants to know something about my brother. He

was older than I was. He was as old as Andrew, and he was

as old as Lula. I am between Lula and Andrew, and Harvey

was between Andrew and Lula. He was eleven years old when

he got killed. He was at the church one Sunday afternoon.


1










Him and my brother-in-law were sitting under a tree talking.

This man came up and his son told my brother that "I can

throw you." His daddy told him, "I believe you can." He

[Harvey] said, "No, Daddy will not allow me to wrestle on

Sunday." His brother-in-law, Forrest Blankenship, said,

"No, Dad does not like him to wrestle on Sunday." Me and

him were sitting out here talking and he was supposed to

have been in the church and his father was in the church

preaching the gospel. We were just fixing to go in when

this guy walked up here with his son. He stopped and talked

to us and he wanted to wrestle. My brother told him he did

not believe he could throw him, but he had to go in the

church. His father says, "Grab him and see before he goes

~ in there. See if you cannot throw him. Show him you can."

So he grabbed my brother and my brother put him on the

ground. He put his shoulders on the ground and held him

down. The old man told him, "Get up son, let's go. We will

get even with him one of these days. We will show him who

is the best man." So he got up and he and his father left.

My brother-in-law got my brother by the arms and said, "Come

on, let us go in the church. If your Dad wants you to be in

there, that is where you are supposed to be." So he went on

in the church and told his father-in-law what happened. He

said, "They got to wrestling out there. That fellow wanted

his boy to throw him. He did not want to wrestle, but he

forced his boy to jump on him and Harvey throwed him and put


2










him on the ground." And he said, "He told us that 'we will

get even, come on son. We will get even with him some of

these days.' So they left."

E: New that was on a Sunday at your church.

B: On a Sunday at the church.

E: That was his brother-in-law.

B: Yes.

E: Now, that took place at the old Mormon church.

B: Yes.

E: And your father at that time was living just across the

road.

B: Right across the road from me.

E: And where was your grandmother living? The one they call

"Granny."

B: She lives at the old home place over there where I was born

at, just right above Gary Wade.

E: That is over beyond the second branch, they call it?

B: Yes.

E: I know about where it is, at least a mile away, is it not?

B: It is about a half of a mile.

E: Now, tell me what happened on the day that Harvey was

killed. What was Harvey's birthday? He was eleven years

old, I believe. He had just had a birthday, had he not?

B: Yes, he had just had a birthday.

E: Now, he did not have a rifle of his own, did he?




3










B: Yes. He had a shotgun. His daddy had bought him a shotgun,

a sixteen gauge shotgun.

E: And that is what he used the day they went squirrel hunting.

B: Yes. That is what he used, that little sixteen gauge

shotgun.

E: Now, he must have been different looking from the rest of

you. He was lighter in color, was he not?

B: Yes, he was really light. He was brown-skinned.

E: And they would tell me he gave himself a nickname. He

called himself "White Man."

B: Yes.

E: Now, do you suppose he got that because he was imitating

your father? Your father had a nickname?

B: Yes.

E: Probably so. And he was a great one for mischief. He used

to put on the wrong shoes and pretend he was an old man.

B: Yes.

E: You remember about that?

B: Yes. I remember that.

E: He must have been joking and laughing and teasing always.

B: Oh, he loved to joke. He was a jolly old boy. He never

made an enemy of nobody; he always loved everybody.

E: And he especially loved his grandmother because he took care

of her.

B: Yes, he really loved his grandmother.




4










E: And the last day when he brought her wood and brought her

water into her and was going off hunting, what did he say to

her?

B: He said, "Grandmother, I am going down to the spring to get

you a pail of water." He went down and got the pail of

water and on the way back up he yelled; right at the edge of

the woods, he saw a rabbit in the bed. He slipped right

around and went on and took the pail of water to the house.

He got his gun and said, "Grandma, I found a rabbit down in

the bed. I am going back to kill him." He said to her, "I

will dress him out and we will have him for dinner." So he

went back down and killed the rabbit, and dressed it out and

washed it up for his grandmother, and told her "Grandmother,

put this on too, we will have it for dinner." She said,

"Okay, grandson, I'll do that." Grandmother got up, she put

the pot on. There was an old black kettle that she cooked

the rabbit in. He got his gun and said, "Grandmother, I am

going hunting. I am going to catch up with my uncle and

kill me some birds." So he got his gun and went off back

down the hill toward the springs. As he left the back porch

of the old homeplace .

E: Now, he came back and told her something else, did he not?

B: He said, "Grandmother, I will back." He said, "If I do not,

the wood is all cut. You do not have to get any wood, I got

it all in for you." Then he got his gun and went off down

toward the spring through that trail where he shot the


5










rabbit. He sang to grandma as he went down the hill, "God

be with you till we meet again." He sung that song until he

got slam out of hearing.

E: He was singing the song?

B: Yes.

E: He not only said it to her, but he sang it.

B: Yes, he sang it. They said she stood on the back porch and

listened to him. They said she listened to him until he got

slam out of hearing. He sang, "God be with you till we meet

again." He went on to the third branch up there where his

uncle was hunting birds. A covey of birds got up and he

shot at them and he missed -rt-'He told his uncle, "I am

going up the creek to where these boys kill rabbits." He

said, "I can kill a rabbit, but I cannot kill birds." He

said, "Son, if you stay I can kill you some game." He said,

"No, I want to kill something where I can say I done it. I

want to say I killed my own game." He said, "I cannot kill

the birds because they flutter and they unnerve you when

they fly up."

So he left and went on up there where that fellow was

hunting. He was hunting rabbits and squirrels. They ran up

on a squirrel that went up a cedar tree about twenty-five

feet tall. They wondered how they were going to get the

squirrels without shooting in there and killing them. They

could not get them out of the nest. About that time my

brother walks up and [they] told [him], "[If] you can run


6










the squirrels out of that nest, we will give you a brand new

pocket knife." And the boy said, "You will not shoot?"

They said, "No. We guarantee you, we won't shoot." So,

they gave him a knife and he went up the tree.

E: They gave him a dime?

B: A knife. A brand new pocket knife. He went up the tree and

about three or four squirrels ran out of the nest and the

old man stood on one side of the tree and the boy the other,

and the other fellow stood at the front of him. He said,

"Boy, shoot, there he is." He said, "Lord have mercy, ya'll

promised not to shoot." And all three of them shot. They

shot his eyes out and shot his lungs and part of his liver.

He hit the ground and they walked off and left him. The old

man [told] the young boy to reach inside that pocket and

took the knife out of his pocket. They called the dogs up

to lick the blood off his face, and they left. Idle Sanders

was there. He was a brother-in-law to the one that shot him

in the face.

E: They shot him in the face.

B: In the face. That was Early Brown. Idle told me, he said,

"Leroy, I saw this with my own eyes. I was an eyewitness.

I went home and told his daddy, Early's daddy, what he had

done." He said his wife said, "Lord, have mercy. I did not

think my son was ever going to be a murderer." The old man

said, "If you do not shut up, I will slap the hell out of

you." They said the old lady was scared of her husband.


7










God, he was rough. He was a tough man. I knew him. They

went and told my mother about it. Me and her went up there.

I reckon we walked three miles up in the woods, up the

creek, over logs, under logs, to get to where my brother was

at. She was in labor, carrying Elsie, the youngest sister,

and I helped her over the logs and under the trees until we

got up there. We carried a big white sheet along and that

is what they put him on and carried him.

E: And you were there.

B: Yes.

E: And did you help pick him up?

B: No, I was too small, but I saw them pick him up. There was

four grown men.

E: There would be a lot of blood around, would there not?

B: A lot of blood. They put him on that sheet and they started

walking back through the woods and the swamp with him, water

up to the ankles. Every time he would go to speak he would

say, "Uncle, I want to tell you something." About that time

half of his liver come up. He could not speak. He did that

two or three times. He never did come out with what he

wanted to tell. He wanted to tell his uncle that his son

was in it. Idle Sanders told me that he was in it. He saw

it. He went back and helped to carry him home.

E: And they carried him to your father's home right in the

center of the reservation.

B: They carried him three miles.


8










E: He was still living at that time.

B: Yes. He lived until they got home. My daddy was in town.

My mother told my brother to go to town and drive him home,

and tell daddy to bring the best doctor he had.

E: He would be driving a one-horse?

B: Two-horse. He had two horses.

E: Now he was sure to think it was one of the older boys. He

would not think it could be his [son].

B: Well, he thought it was the oldest son, one of the older

boys. He did not think it would have been him. He got Dr.

Massey.

E: Dr. Massey would come out in horse and buggy, would he not?

B: He did for a while, but he bought old Essex automobile.

That is what they go home in.

E: A model-T Ford, probably.

B: That was what you call an Essex automobile.

E: Oh yes.

B: That was an old time car, but it was the first car I ever

saw, I reckon. He drove it home and told daddy how he gave

him a dose of morphine. He said, "He will live to 5:00.

That morphine will last to 5:00. When it dies, then he will

go with it." So at 5:00, the morphine died. The boy passed

away.

. Well, years after that, they all came up and daddy went down

in the woods and prayed. He prayed to the Lord seven times

not to let him take vengeance and came back to the house.


9










And the last time he came up and said, "Lord, answer these

prayers." He said, "Put your arm around those people. If

the enemy gets them, if it was an unavoidable accident, we

will let it go like that." He said, "I did not see it. I

did not know how it happened." The old man [who shot

Harvey] died; he got sick. He had a cancer. He called my

daddy down to his house and said, "Chief, I want you to come

see me. I have something I want to tell you." He said, "We

did not kill your boy on accident. We killed him on

purpose. That is why your boy is dead. We shot him on

purpose. And now," he said, "I am paying for it." His

cancer broke out on his right side. His entrails pushed

out. Daddy pushed them back in and dressed him out and laid

him out.

E: Now, he is buried in the old, ancient cemetery.

SB: He is buried in the old Indian cemetery.

E: The date of this would be what? 1914?

B: Yes, I believe it was 1914.

E: February?

B: Yes, February.

E: Now there is no marker on his grave is there?

B: No, ma'am. There is not a marker there. Back then they

just had little old wooden pegs just stuck up and that is

all the mark he had. That peg is all rotted. And there was

a bunch of honeysuckle that came up right at the head of his




10










grave. That is the last time I can remember seeing his

grave down there.

E: What happened to his knife that he was [given]?

B: They took it away from him.

E: Did you get it?

B: No, the fellow that killed him kept it. He took it.

E: You really think that it was done on purpose.

B: Yes, ma'am, I do. Idle Sanders told me and he was there.

He was the son-in-law to John Brown. He was a brother-in-

law to Early Brown. He said, "I could not say nothing. I

was in the family. I did not know what to do. I wanted to

tell your daddy that before he died, but I did not want to

hurt his feelings. The position he held in his church; he

was a good-standing man." He said, "I want to tell you what

happened." Me and him were sitting right out beside that

road out there. He told me everything that happened.

E: Who had the service for Harvey at the top of the cemetery?



B: Who had the service? Ben Harris, I think, preached his

funeral.

E: Ben Harris. Ben was a fine person and a full-blooded

Indian.

B: Yes. He was a fine person.

E: Do you remember anything about the service? What did they

use?




11










B: Well, they used the(Bb ) the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and

Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

E: They did not sing at the funeral did they?
)
B: Yes, ma'am.

E: What did they sing?

B: They sung that song he sung: "God Be With You Till We Meet

Again" and "Oh My Father, Thou That Dwellest."

E: I remember your wife sang "Oh My Father" for me right here

in this room and she told me that it was in your hymnbooks.

I will have to get a copy of that. And then they sang "God

Be With You Till We Meet Again."

B: Yes, ma'am.

E: I am sure that there must have been a crowd at the top of

that hill and everybody would be in tears, would they not?

B: Yes, everybody would. They shed tears for a guy who was

such a nice boy. He was a wonderful boy.

E: He was so different from the rest of you--different in

appearance and different in mischievousness, and different

in the way that he took care of his grandmother.

B: Yes.

E: And you know he will be remembered by those words "God Be

With You" and also your father will always be remembered for

reaching out a hand of forgiveness.

B: Yes, ma'am.

E: It really is a story that other people need to know, and we

need to forgive each other, do we not?


12










"B: That is right. That is what daddy always did believe. He

did not want to have any enemies, and he did not want to

cause trouble with anybody. He loved everybody.

E: You are talking about Harvey?

B: My daddy.

E: Oh, your daddy. That certainly is true. He had friends

among the whites and everybody loved him. He came to my

school and would sing, and then he would let out his war

whoop. I wish that I had spent more time with him than I

had.

B: I want to tell you something, I forget what year it was.

You might remember it. They had the centennial in Rock

Hill. They let their hair grow out, they put on old-time

clothes, and had a big parade in Rock Hill. They had a

fellow, Jay Williams and Harris Williams, and they had

spiked their Coca-Cola with liquor. I saw, because he

offered it to my dad. I said, "Dad, do not drink their

Coca-Cola." He said, "Why son?" I said, "It has got liquor

in it." He said, "How do you know?" I said, "I saw it. I

saw it with my eyes. I saw them pour it in. They had to

pour half the coca-cola out and put the rest of it with

liquor." He told them, "I cannot drink that Coca-Cola

then," and handed it back to them. They said, "Oh, it is

not going to hurt you." He said, "Yes it will. I am not

supposed to drink it," and he gave the Coca-Cola back and

he did not drink it. But, he went out on the street. He


13










danced, he sung the old Indian songs, he beat his tom-tom,

and he was as happy as the ones that were drinking. He was

in better shape and had better understanding of what he was

doing.

E: You have got some blessed memories of your father.

B: Thank you, ma'am.

[Break in tape.]

E: There is a beautiful person I want to ask you about. I want

to ask you about Lily Blue. You remember her. She was

probably older, but you remember Lily. Tell me, what did

she look like?

B: Well, she looked like a doll to me. She had such a pretty

complexion. She was brown-skinned with rosy cheeks, and she

was as pretty as she could be. Her hair was curly and she

kept it rolled up, and I remember her husband when he went

to World War I. I took Jefferson down to Catawba Junction

when he was drafted in the Army in the World War I. Me and

his wife took him down e-ao in a buggywith no

top on it. It was just an open-top buggy. And we took him

down in it. He was drafted in the Army and he went over to

Spartanburg [South Carolina] and he stayed over there two or

"J c three days/ then they sent him back. They told him he could

go back home to his family, they would pass him up on that

draft. Right after that the world war ended and he never

did get any further than that. That was as far as he went.




14










When World War II came along, I was drafted. My wife was in

labor with the birth of the young one when I left the house.

I told Mr. Robinson, the draft agent, "Let me off till the

next draft." He said, "No, I cannot do it. That is the

government order, you will have to go." So I went to Dr.

Blackman. I asked Dr. Blackman could he refer me from going

and talk to Mr. Robinson. He said, "I will." So he called

him up and told him. He said no to the doctor. "He has to

/ go.- The government is treating them all alike. He has to

7 go down. So I went to Fort Jackson.

My wife was in labor when I left the house and she said,

"Honey, I am going to wait until you come back before I

birth my child." And she had another one as I left. So I

went on to Columbia and came back the next day. That night

the baby was born. She put it off until I got back. That

is how much the Lord loves us, how much he took care of us.

E: Now tell me about Lily. [She] married a($lankenship.

B: Lily married aankenship She birthed twin kids and they

both died. The doctor wanted to operate on her. She said,

"No, doctor. The Lord put me here to multiply and

replenish, me and my husband, and that is what we intend to

do. Fulfill the commandment of what the Lord wants us to

do." She said, "I will not be operated on. If the Lord

sees fit to take my two young ones, and he sees fit to take

me, I want to go. I am ready anytime the Lord takes me I

want to be on his side." That is how she lived. The next


15










day she passed away. She was a pretty woman. I remember

her.

E: Tell me about Nelson. That is your older brother of the

first wife. He would be your half brother.

B: He is my half brother.

E: What did he look like, first of all?

B: He was dark-skinned, completed. He took mostly after his

mother's side. He took after them a lot. He was a nice-

complected fellow. He had good skin. He worked hard. He

worked on a farm down until he got him a job in town. I

will never forget the day my daddy told him, "Son, you and

Herbert are the first two boys that have got a job off the

reservation." He said, "When you move to town, do not think

you are better than your own people here on the reservation.

Do not get above them. Remember the way you were raised and

what you were taught." He said, "If you do that, you will

be all right. But, if you do not you are going to have

trouble with the children. Do not feel like you are better

o- than these out here." So he turned out like daddy told him.

E: Did Nelson's wife die first and then [he]?

B: Yes. Nelson's wife died in Salt Lake City, Utah.

E: He lived for a while out near Red River.

B: Yes. He lived out here at Red River.

E: At the top of the hill. He said he was able to see the

Catawba River.




16










B: Yes. The old Indian ford place where the Indians used to

cross the river. You forded across the river there. There

was no bridge. That was called the Indian trail through the

Indian's ford when they would cross the river into North

Carolina.

E: His old home is gone today, is it?

B: No, it is still down here.

E: Is it at the top of the hill beyond the railroad track?

B: Yes.

E: I think I know where it is.

B: If you cross the railroad tracks .

E: and turn right.

B: Yes. No, turn left. It is on the top of the hill. There

are a lot of trailers down there now. I do not know who all

is living down there, but he moved to Salt Lake City, Utah.

E: He was a guard at Rock Hill printing and finishingg plant for

quite a while.

B: He was a guard up there and I was too. He had the second

shift and I had the first shift.

E: That has been a long time ago, but you all did a good job.

B: Yes. I had a good record up there. Mr. A.L. Johnson was

the plant manager. He came to me one day. I ran the

switchboard down on the front in the telephone room. This

girl came in at 8:00. I watched from 7:00 to 8:00, and then

I would go to the back gate and guard up there. My brother




17










worked the second shift. There was only two shifts, twelve

hours a day.

One day Mr. Johnson came up by there. He said, "Mr. Blue, I

want to talk to you a minute." I said, "Yes sir." He said,

"Do not let any of the employees come in that back gate."

He said, "Do not even let me come in here." He said, "I am

no better than the employees. If you see me coming through,

make me go around the building." Around the building were a

lot of houses with sidewalks on the front side of the

building. He said make him go around and enter the front

gate at the main office. I said, "I will do it." bout two

weeks later a fellow came up with a heavy coat on with a

black hat. I checked him out and when he got about three or

four feet inside of the gate I asked if he wanted to see

someone. "Yes, I am going down to the office." I said,

"What office are you going to?" He said, "I am going to the

main office." I said, "Well, you will have to go around the

building and come in the front door to the main office." He

looked at me and said, "I am Mr. Lowenstein, the plant

owner." I said, "Well, Mr. Lowenstein, I am sorry to tell

you that, but that is my orders I got from Mr. A. L.

Johnson." He said, "Well, I understand it." "Mr. A L.

Johnson is your son-in-law right?" He said, "Yes, he is.

Is that the orders he gave you?" I said, "Yes, sir. That

is the orders he gave me." After that he shook hands and




18










went and walked back out of the gate and went around the

building and came in the main office building.

About five minutes after that Mr. Johnson came up through

the plant walking pretty fast, slinging his hands. He

always was slinging his hands when he walked. A bunch of

the fellows said, "Here he comes. He is going to fire you."

I said, "If he fires me, he would be going against what he

told me." "Yes it will." He came right on up to me, put

his hand on my shoulder, shook hands with me, said, "Mr.

Blue, you are the man I want to stay at this company.

Anytime you need a commendation, you come to me. Do not go

to another employee, none of the foremen, come to the big

office. You need money, I will give it to you. Anything

you need, I will let you have it." He said, "I can trust

you. You are the man I want to work for me." He said, "You

have got a job as long as you want it."

E: That is a wonderful tribute and it shows the relationship of

the whites to the Indians in a very real way.

B: Because Mr. Johnson was a Jew and his daddy was a Jew, but

they were good people.

E: That is a real tribute to you. A real tribute.











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Full Text

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I ., UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA ORAL HISTORY PROJECT -. Interviewee: Leroy Blue Interviewer: Emma Echols February 3, 1994 CAT 232 Leroy Blue is the oldest son of Chief Samuel Blue. In this interview he recalls the story of how his brother Harvey was killed while hunting~his father's reactionbaA~ h~ job as a guard at the Rock Hill~inting andAnishing plant. 11 -I) , n.e. Cl..l So l.,{ e sc. f' , oe ':::> h 1

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( . , 3, 1994 E: This is Emma Echols, 5150 Sharon Road, Charlotte, North Carolina. This is February 3, 1994. I am visiting at the home of the oldest son of Chief Samuel Blue, Mr. Leroy Blue. His home is filled with pictures and memories of the past. I see children and grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and he is so proud of them because not a single one of them has been in any trouble with the law or the officials of any kind. They have gone to school, they have made good in the world, and it is largely due to this home and the other homes associated with his family that have trained up these children in the way that they should go. So he sits here surrounded by a wall filled with pictures, and on the wall over there was a small picture of Harvey. Harvey was the middle one in the big family that Chief Blue had, and Leroy was the oldest son. So I want him to tell us all what he remembers about his brother, Harvey. B: Mrs. Echols wants to know something about my brother. He was older than I was. He was as old as Andrew, and he was as old as Lula. I am between Lula and Andrew, and Harvey was between Andrew and Lula. He was eleven years old when he got killed. He was at the church one Sunday afternoon. 1

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Him and my brother-in-law were sitting under a tree talking. This man came up and his son told my brother that "I can throw you." His daddy told him, "I believe you can." He (Harvey] said, "No, Daddy will not allow me to wrestle on Sunday." His brother-in-law, Forrest Blankenship, said, "No, Dad does not like him to wrestle on Sunday." Me and him were sitting out here talking and he was supposed to have been in the church and his father was in the church preaching the gospel. We were just fixing to go in when ---;:.. this guy walked up here with his son. He stopped and talked to us and he wanted to wrestle. My brother told him he did not believe he could throw him, but he had to go in the church. His father says, "Grab him and see before he goes ~n there. See if you cannot throw him. Show him you can." So he grabbed my brother and my brother put him on the ground. He put his shoulders on the ground and held him down. The old man told him, "Get up son, let's go. We will get even with him one of these days. We will show him who is the best man." So he got up and he and his father left. My brother-in-law got my brother by the arms and said, "Come on, let us go in the church. If your Dad wants you to be in there, that is where you are supposed to be." So he went on in the church and told his father-in-law what happened. He said, "They got to wrestling out there. That fellow wanted his boy to throw him. He did not want to wrestle, but he forced his boy to jump on him and Harvey throwed him and put 2

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E: B: E: B: E: B: E: him on the ground." And he said, "He told us that 'we will get even, come on son. We will get even with him some of these days.• So they left." ~hat was on a Sunday at your church. On a Sunday at the church. That was his brother-in-law. Yes. Now, that took place at the old Mormon church. Yes. And your father at that time was living just across the road. B: Right across the road from me. E: And where was your grandmother living? The one they call "Granny." B: She lives at the old home place over there where I was born at, just right above Gary Wade. E: That is over beyond the second branch, they call it? B: Yes. E: I know about where it is, at least a mile away, is it not? B: It is about a half of a mile. E: Now, tell me what happened on the day that Harvey was killed. What was Harvey's birthday? He was eleven years old, I believe. He had just had a birthday, had he not? B: Yes, he had just had a birthday. E: Now, he did not have a rifle of his own, did he? 3

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B: Yes. He had a shotgun. His daddy had bought him a shotgun, a sixteen gauge shotgun. E: And that is what he used the day they went squirrel hunting. B: Yes. That is what he used, that little sixteen gauge shotgun. E: Now, he must have been different looking from the rest of you. He was lighter in color, was he not? B: Yes, he was really light. He was brown-skinned. E: And they would tell me he gave himself a nickname. He called himself "White Man." B: Yes. E: Now, do you suppose he got that because he was imitating your father? Your father had a nickname? B: Yes. E: Probably so. And he was a great one for mischief. He used to put on the wrong shoes and pretend he was an old man. B: Yes. E: You remember about that? B: Yes. I remember that. E: He must have been joking and laughing and teasing always. B: Oh, he loved to joke. He was a jolly old boy. He never made an enemy of nobody; he always loved everybody. E: And he especially loved his grandmother because he took care of her. B: Yes, he really loved his grandmother. 4

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E: And the last day when he brought her wood and brought her water into her and was going off hunting, what did he say to her? B: He said, "Grandmother, I am going down to the spring to get you a pail of water." He went down and got the pail of water and on the way back up he yelled; right at the edge of the woods, he saw a rabbit in the bed. He slipped right around and went on and took the pail of water to the house. He got his gun and said, "Grandma, I found a rabbit down in the bed. I am going back to kill him." He said to her, "I will dress him out and we will have him for dinner." So he went back down and killed the rabbit, and dressed it out and washed it up for his grandmother, and told her "Grandmother, put this on too, we will have it for dinner." She said, "Okay, grandson, I'll do that." Grandmother got up, she put :-;. the pot on. There was an old black kettle that she cooked the rabbit in. He got his gun and said, "Grandmother, I am going hunting. I am going to catch up with my uncle and kill me some birds." So he got his gun and went off back down the hill toward the springs. As he left the back porch of the old homeplace E: Now, he came back and told her something else, did he not? B: He said, "Grandmother, I will back." He said, "If I do not, the woo d is all cut. You do not have to get any wood, I got it all in for you." Then he got his gun and went off down toward the spring through that trail where he shot the 5

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rabbit. He sang to grandma as he went down the hill, "God be with you till we meet again." He sung that song until he got slam out of hearing. E: He was singing the song? B: Yes. E: He not only said it to her, but he sang it. B: Yes, he sang it. They said she stood on the back porch and listened to him. They said she listened to him until he got slam out of hearing. He sang, "God be with you till we meet again." He went on to the third branch up there where his uncle was hunting birds. A covey of birds got up and he shot at them and he missed ~e told his uncle, "I am 0 going up the creek to where these boys kill rabbits." He said, "I can kill a rabbit, but I cannot kill birds." He said, "Son, if you stay I can kill you some game." He said, "No, I want to kill something where I can say I done it. I want to say I k~lled my own game." He said, "I cannot kill the birds because they flutter and they unnerve you when they fly up." So he left and went on up there where that fellow was hunting. He was hunting rabbits and squirrels. They ran up on a squirrel that went up a cedar tree about twenty-five feet tall. They wondered how they were going to get the squirrels without shooting in there and killing them. They could not get them out of the nest. About that time my brother walks up and [they) told [him], "[If] you can run 6

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the squirrels out of that nest, we will give you a brand new pocket knife." And the boy said, "You will not shoot?" They said, "No. We guarantee you, we won't shoot." So, they gave him a knife and he went up the tree. E: They gave him a dime? B: A knife. A brand new pocket knife. He went up the tree and about three or four squirrels ran out of the nest and the old man stood on one side of the tree and the boy the other, and the other fellow stood at the front of him. He said, "Boy, shoot, there he is." He said, "Lord have mercy, ya'll promised not to shoot." And all three of them shot. They shot his eyes out and shot his lungs and part of his liver. He hit the ground and they walked off and left him. The old man [told] the young boy to reach inside that pocket and took the knife out of his pocket. They called the dogs up to lick the blood off his face, and they left. Idle Sanders was there. He was a brother-in-law to the on e that shot him in the face. E: They shot him in the face. B: In the face. That was Early Brown. Idle told me, he said, "Leroy, I saw this with my own eyes. I was an eyewitness. I went home and told his daddy, Early's daddy, what he had done." He said his wife said, "Lord, have mercy. I did not think my son was ever going to be a murderer." The old man said, "If you do not shut up, I will slap the hell out of you." They said the old lady was scared of her husband. 7

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God, he was rough. He was a tough man. I knew him. They went and told my mother about it. Me and her went up there. I reckon we walked three miles up in the woods, up the creek, over logs, under logs, to get to where my brother was at. She was in labor, carrying Elsie, the youngest sister, and I helped her over the logs and under the trees until we got up there. We carried a big white sheet along and that is what they put him on and carried him. E: And you were there. B: Yes. E: And did you help pick him up? B: No, I was too small, but I saw them pick him up. There was four grown men. E: There would be a lot of blood around, would there not? B: A lot of blood. They put him on that sheet and they started walking back through the woods and the swamp with him, water up to the ankles. Every time he would go to speak he would say, "Uncle, I want to tell you something." About that time half of his liver come up. He could not speak. He did that two or three times. He never did come out with what he wanted to tell. He wanted to tell his uncle that his son was in it. Idle Sanders told me that he was in it. He saw it. He went back and helped to carry him home. E: And they carried him to your father's home right in the center of the reservation. B: They carried him three miles . 8

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cy Ccf Lfa-f E: He was still living at that time. B: Yes. He lived until they got home. My daddy was in town. E: My mother told my brother to go to town and drive him home, and tell daddy to bring the best doctor he had ..He would be driving a one-horse? B: Two-horse. He had two horses. E: Now he was sure to think it was one of the older boys. He would not think it could be his [son]. B: Well, he thought it was the oldest son, one of the older boys. He did not think it would have been him. He got Dr. Massey. E: Dr. Massey would come out in horse and buggy, would he not? B: He did for a while, but he bought old Essex automobile. E: B: E: B: That is what they go home in. A ~odel-T Ford, probably. That was what you call an Essex automobile. Oh yes. That was an old time car, but it was the first car I ever saw, I reckon. He drove it home and told daddy how he gave him a dose of morphine. He said, "He will live to 5:00. That morphine will last to 5:00. When it dies, then he will go with it." So at 5:00, the morphine died. The boy passed away. Well, years after that, they all came up and iaddy went down in the woods and prayed. He prayed to the Lord seven times not to let him take vengeance and came back to the house. 9

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E: B: E: B: E: B: E: B: And the last time he came up and said, "Lord, answer these prayers." He said, "Put your arm around those people. If the enemy gets them, if it was an unavoidable accident, we will let it go like that." He said, "I did not see it. I did not know how it happened." The old man [who shot Harvey] died; he got sick. He had a cancer. He called my daddy down to his house and said, "Chief, I want you to come see me. I have something I want to tell you." He said, "We did not kill your boy on accident. We killed him on purpose. That is why your boy is dead. We shot him on purpose. And now," he said, "I am paying for it." His cancer broke out on his right side. His entrails pushed out. Daddy pushed them back in and dressed him out and laid him out. Now, he is buried in the old, ancient cemetery. He is buried in the oldo/?ndian cemetery. The date of this would be what? 1914? Yes, I believe it was 1914. February? Yes, February. Now there is no marker on his grave/\.is there? _) No, ma'am. There is not a marker there. Back then they just had little old wooden pegs just stuck up and that is all the mark he had. That peg is all rotted. And there was a bunch of honeysuckle that came up right at the head of his 10

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grave. That is the last time I can remember seeing his grave down there. E: What happened to his knife that he was [given]? B: They took it away from him. E: Did you get it? B: No, the fellow that killed him kept it. He took it. E: You really think that it was done on purpose. B: Yes, ma'am, I do. Idle Sanders told me and he was there. E: B: He was the son-in-law to John Brown. He was a brother-in law to Early Brown. He said, "I could not say nothing. I was in the family. I did not know what to do. I wanted to tell your daddy that before he died, but I did not want to hurt his feelings. The position he held in his church; he was a good-standing man." He said, "I want to tell you what happened." Me and him were sitting right out beside that road out there. He told me everything that happened. Who had the service for Harvey at the top of the cemetery? Wae had the service? 5)----Who had the service? Ben Harris, I think, preached his funeral. E: Ben Harris. Ben was a fine person and a full-blooded Indian. B: Yes. He was a fine person. E: Do you remember anything about the service? What did they use? 11

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Well, they used the@:bl:i) the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. E: They did not sing at the funeral/\did they? ) B: Yes, ma'am. E: What did they sing? B: They sung that song he sung: "God Be With You Till We Meet Again" and "Oh My Father, Thou That Dwellest. 11 E: I remember your wife sang "Oh My Father" for me right here in this room and she told me that it was in your hymnbooks. I will have to get a copy of that. And then they sang "God Be With You Till We Meet Again." B: Yes, ma'am. E: I am sure that there must have been a crowd at the top of that hill and everybody would be in tears, would they not? B: Yes, everybody would. They shed tears for a guy who was such a nice boy. He was a wonderful boy. E: He was so different from the rest of you--different in appearance and different in mischievousness, and different in the way that he took care of his grandmother. B: Yes. E: And you know he will be remembered by those words "God Be With You" and also your father will always be remembered for reaching out a hand of forgiveness. B: Yes, ma'am. E: It really is a story that other people need to know, and we need to forgive each other, do we not? 12

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That is right. That is what daddy always did believe. He did not want to have any enemies, and he did not want to cause trouble with anybody. He loved everybody. E: You are talking about Harvey? B: My daddy. E: Oh, your daddy. That certainly is true. He had friends among the whites and everybody loved him. He came to my school and would sing, and then he would let out his war whoop. I wish that I had spent more time with him than I had. B: I want to tell you something, I forget what year it was. You might remember it. They had the centennial in Rock Hill. They let their hair grow out, they put on old-time clothes, and had a big parade in Rock Hill. They had a fellow, Jay Williams and Harris Williams, and they had spiked their Coca-Cola with liquor. I saw, because he offered it to my dad. I said, "Dad, do not drink their Coca-Cola." He said, "Why son?" I said, "It has got liquor in it." He said, "How do you know?" I said, "I saw it. I saw it with my eyes. I saw them pour it in. They had to pour half the coca-cola out and put the rest of it with liquor." He told them, "I cannot drink that Coca-Cola then," and handed it back to them. They said, "Oh, it is not going to hurt you." He said, "Yes it will. I am not supposed to drink it," and he gave the Coca-Cola back and he did not drink it. But, he went out on the street. He 13

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danced, he sung the old Indian songs, he beat his tom-tom, and he was as happy as the ones that were drinking. He was in better shape and had better understanding of what he was doing. E: You have got some blessed memories of your father. B: Thank you, ma'am. [Break in tape.] E: There is a beautiful person I want to ask you about. I want to ask you about Lily Blue. You remember her. She was probably older, but you remember Lily. Tell me, what did she look like? B: Well, she looked like a doll to me. She had such a pretty complexion. She was brown-skinned with rosy cheeks, and she was as pretty as she could be. Her hair was curly and she kept it rolled up, and I remember her husband when he went to World War I. I took Jefferson down to Catawba Junction when he was drafted in the Army in the World War I. Me and his wife took him down -te the a buggy ~th no top on it. It was just an open-top buggy. And we took him down in it. He was drafted in the Army and he went over to Spartanburg [South Carolina] and he stayed over there two or three days/then they sent him back. They told him he could (:)~ go back home to his family, they would pass him up on that draft. Right after that the world war ended and he never did get any further than that. That was as far as he went. 14

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Q E: B: 0 j When World War II came along, I was drafted. My wife was in labor with the birth of the young one when I left the house. I told Mr. Robinson, the draft agent, "Let me off till the next draft." He said, "No, I cannot do it. That is the government order, you will have to go." So I went to Dr. Blackman. I asked Dr. Blackman could he refer me from going and talk to Mr. Robinson. He said, "I will." So he called him up and told him. He said no to the doctor. "He has to go.~he government is treating them all alike. He has to go down. So I went to Fort Jackson. My wife was in labor when I left the house and she said, "Honey, I am going to wait until you come back before I birth my child." And she had another one as I left. So I went on to Columbia and came back the next day. That night the baby was born. She put it off until I got back. That is how much the Lord loves us, how much he took care of us. Now tell me about Lily. [She] married ~kensh_2i) Lily married '-::::,,.----She birthed twin kids and they both died. The doctor wanted to operate on her. She said, "No, doctor. The Lord put me here to multiply and replenish, me and my husband, and that is what we intend to do. Fulfill the commandment of what the Lord wants us to do." She said, "I will not be operated on. If the Lord sees fit to take my two young ones, and he sees fit to take me, I want to go. I am ready anytime the Lord takes me I 0 want to be on his side." That is how she lived. The next 15

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day she passed away. She was a pretty woman. I remember her. E: Tell me about Nelson. That is your older brother of the first wife. He would be your half brother. B: He is my half brother. E: What did he look like, first of all? B: He was dark-skinned, complected. He took mostly after his mother's side. He took after them a lot. He was a nice complected fellow. He had good skin. He worked hard. He worked on a farm down until he got him a job in town. I will never forget the day my daddy told him, "Son, you and Herbert are the first two boys that have got a job off the reservation." He said, "When you move to town, do not think you are better than your own people here on the reservation. Do not get above them. Remember the way you were raised and what you were taught." He said, "If you do that, you will be all right. But, if you do not you are going to have E: trouble with the children. Do not feel like you are better than these out here." So he turned out like daddy told him. Did Nelson's wife die first and then [he]? B: Yes. Nelson's wife died in Salt Lake City, Utah. E: He lived for a while out near Red River. B: Yes. He lived out here at Red River. E: At the top of the hill. He said he was able to see the Catawba River. 16

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B: Yes. The old Indian ford place where the Indians used to cross the river. You forded across the river there. There was no bridge. That was called the Indian trail through the Indian's ford when they would cross the river into North Carolina. E: His old home is gone today, is it? B: No, it is still down here. E: Is it at the top of the hill beyond the railroad track? B: Yes. E: I think I know where it is. B: If you cross the railroad tracks E: and turn right. B: Yes. No, turn left. It is on the top of the hill. There are a lot of trailers down there now. I do not know who all is living down there, but he moved to Salt Lake City, Utah. E: I He was a guard atARock Hill /rinting and inishing plant for quite a while. B: He was a guard up there and I was too. He had the second shift and I had the first shift. E: B: That has been a long time ago, but you all did a good job. Yes. I had a good record up there. Mr. A.f Johnson was the plant manager. He came to me one day. I ran the switchboard down on the front in the telephone room. This girl came in at a:oo. I watched from 7:00 to 8:00, and then I would go to the back gate and guard up there. My brother 17

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worked the second shift. There was only two shifts, twelve hours a day. One day Mr. Johnson came up by there. He said, "Mr. Blue, I want to talk to you a minute." I said, "Yes sir." He said, "Do not let any of the employees come in that back gate." He said, "Do not even let me come in here." He said, "I am no better than the employees. If you see me coming through, make me go around the building." Around the building were a lot of houses with sidewalks on the front side of the building. He said make him go around and gate at the main office. I said, "I will weeks later a fellow came up with a heavy enter the front do it."~out two coat on with a black hat. I checked him out and when he got about three or four feet inside of the gate I asked if he wanted to see someone. "Yes, I am going down to the office." I said, "What office are you going to?" He said, "I am going to the main office." I said, "Well, you will have to go around the building and come in the front door to the main office." He looked at me and said, "I am Mr. Lowenstein, the plant owner." I said, "Well, Mr. Lowenstein, I am sorry to tell you that, but that is my orders I got from Mr. A{~ -if Johnson." He said, "Well, I understand it." "Mr. A{L Johnson is your son-in-law right?" He said, "Yes, he is. Is that the orders he gave you?" I said, "Yes, sir. That is the orders he gave me." After that he shook hands and 18

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went and walked back out of the gate and went around the building and came in the main office building. About five minutes after that Mr. Johnson came up through the plant walking pretty fast, slinging his hands. He always was slinging his hands when he walked. A bunch of the fellows said, "Here he comes. He is going to fire you." I said, "If he fires me, he would be going against what he told me." "Yes it will." He came right on up to me, put his hand on my shoulder, shook hands with me, said, "Mr. Blue, you are the man I want to stay at this company. Anytime you need a commendation, you come to me. Do not go to another employee, none of the foremen, come to the big office. You need money, I will give it to you. Anything you need, I will let you have it." He said, "I can trust you. You are the man I want to work for me." He said, "You have got a job as long as you want it." E: That is a wonderful tribute and it shows the relationship of the whites to the Indians in a very real way. B: Because Mr. Johnson was a Jew and his daddy was a Jew, but they were good people. E: That is a real tribute to you. A real tribute. 19