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Interview with Tom Stanley, September 9, 1993

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Title:
Interview with Tom Stanley, September 9, 1993
Creator:
Stanley, Tom ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:
Language:
English

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Catawba Indians -- Florida
Kataba Indians -- Florida
Catawba Oral History Collection ( local )

Notes

Funding:
This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

Record Information

Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'Catawba' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management:
Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/.

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SOUTHEASTERN INDIAN ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA









Interviewee: Tom Stanley

Interviewer: Emma Echols

September 9, 1993









E: This is Emma Echols, 5150 Sharon Road, Charlotte, North Carolina. I am working
on the oral history of the Catawba Indians with Dr. Samuel Proctor, University of
Florida. This is September 9, 1993. I am visiting at Winthrop College and I am on
the gallery of all the artists' pictures around and I will let my guest tell you who he
is and his official title.

S: My name is Tom Stanley and I am the Director of Winthrop University Galleries in
Rock Hill [South Carolina].

E: You did an amazing thing last fall when you had the big exhibit here. I was here for
your program, and most of all I enjoyed being out underneath the trees with your
Catawba Indian potters and what they were making. Tell me about your plans and
what you did.

S: Actually, the plans for that exhibition began as early as the fall of 1990. Dr. Carol
Ivory came to Winthrop that year, the same year I came to Winthrop (we came
together as junior faculty at that time). Her specialization in art history was the art
of indigenous people. She looked primarily at the arts in the South Pacific, but also
had a great interest in the arts of Native Americans. Interestingly enough, she came
to Rock Hill and was not that familiar with the Catawba pottery. She went to the
first Catawba festival after the Thanksgiving weekend in 1990 and made what for her
was, I guess, a significant discovery, and from that point on decided that this would
make an excellent exhibition.

So, we began collaborating at that point on plans for the exhibition, and again doing
some initial work with some of the Catawba, primarily Wenonah Haire as the chair
of the cultural preservation project. And with their blessing and their help we wrote
a grant to the South Carolina Humanities Council to develop not only an exhibition,
but to also put on a symposium along with the exhibition, a teacher in-service for
surrounding counties, the pottery demonstration which was a few days after the
opening during the fall festival here in Rock Hill, outside on the grounds of
Winthrop, and a publication that Dr. Ivory wrote. So there were several levels to the
overall project.

Dr. Ivory's primary emphasis was tracing the tradition of Catawba pottery at least
within the historical context which could be traced. With that in mind, what she did
was select about three contemporary potters of today and look back at those people
who had taught them and who had taught the people who taught them, so [she]
traced it back as far she could into at least the nineteenth century in many cases.
And then in like fashion [she] looked at the people who these contemporary potters
were now training, or who they had trained. For example, Georgia Harris was one
of our main potters, so we looked back at those people who had taught her and, in
like fashion, those people she had influenced such as Earl Robbins and Nola
Campbell. And that was the thrust of the exhibition.

-1-










We looked at three different genealogies with that in mind, and of course as you
already know, everybody knows everybody and everybody is almost related to
everybody else. Nonetheless, we were able to look at it in that context and that was
the focus of the exhibition. So, because of that, some of the contemporary potters
were not in the exhibition because their paths did not quite always cross. But it was
an excellent opportunity to do that, and I suspect it was only the second exhibition
since that historic exhibition in 1972 at the Columbia Museum that really looked at
Catawba pottery in a serious and academic fashion and tried to make people
understand once again that this indeed is the only surviving Native American pottery
tradition, for sure east of the Mississippi, if not east of New Mexico in some cases,
as some anthropologists suggest. So, there was that phase of it and, of course, the
symposium as well.

Dr. Tom Bloomer from the Library of Congress was part of the project as an
important consultant to the project. He was part of the symposium, as was Dr. Doug
Denatalli who is the South Carolina folk arts specialist. Interestingly enough, his
wife, Gail Denatalli, assisted as an educational specialist because with the project we
produced eight educational kits to be distributed free of charge for loan to area
schools. Those kits contained a video, slides, slide script, histories of the Catawba,
outline of the Catawba pottery tradition, as well as an actual piece of Catawba
pottery, among other things, and were made available and still are being used. In
fact, the kit and that project [have] been presented at the South Carolina Federation
of Museums spring conference, [they have] been presented at the South Carolina art
education fall workshop, and will be presented again this fall in Charleston [South
Carolina] at the South Carolina art education fall workshop. Interestingly enough,
because of that work (I would like to think that anyway), Dr. Tom Bloomer will be
a keynote speaker at that South Carolina Art Education fall workshop. So, I think
we have made some in-roads into the education community.

E: You have come a long way, have you not?

S: Well, we cannot take credit for it all, we just got the ball rolling, but one thing that
I thought was very successful was the first part of the project back in August of 1992
as it looked forward to the exhibition and prepared teachers for the exhibition. In
August, when teachers were going back to school, each discipline had their own
teacher in-service or workshop a couple of days before classes began. So, we
organized one specifically for art educators in the surrounding counties. We brought
to Winthrop sixty art educators from not only York but some surrounding counties
to hear Dr. Bloomer and Dr. Gail Denatalli who worked with three Catawba potters
during the workshop to get them to talk about how they learned it, where they
learned it and so on, and then also had a pottery demonstration after lunch. And it
was excellent because, as some of the teachers said, "I have never understood it like
this before," and it really opened some things up. That teacher in-service was so
successful that School District Three asked us to do it again in the winter for all the

-2-










social studies teachers on the third grade level, the seventh or eighth grade level, as
well as [for] some high school social studies teachers as well. Here again, that turned
out to be quite successful. So, essentially, we are doing that again this fall for the
South Carolina Art Educational Association fall conference.

E: What are the dates of that? Have you got it all set up?

S: Yes, October 15, 16, and 17th down in Charleston, so we are looking forward to that.

E: It will be here on the campus?

S: No, it will be down in Charleston.

E: Charleston, that is too far away.

S: Yes, I know, I know.

E: What pottery makers will go with you from the nation, or do you know?

S: Nola Campbell will be the primary person who will go down.

E: And Evelyn George and Catherine?

S: No, just Nola, because we could not afford everybody, so Nola is going and she is
taking an assistant and I do not recall her name right now.

E: You know Nola's son who is making that miniature pottery?

S: I have seen it, yes.

E: They are all going in for making that miniature pottery now. I have seen lots of it.
You know, the thing about Nola is [that] she is not only a beautiful pottery maker,
but she is a beautiful person inside.

S: Oh, and a storyteller.

E: Because I know her background, when she quit school at fifteen and was married.

S: Oh, I have heard some of the stories, it is wonderful just to listen to Nola and really
enjoy her.

E: When she was here on your campus the little boys gathered around her and you have
a picture in your local paper of her showing the little boys how to make the pottery.


-3-










S: Yes, they really enjoyed it and that is one reason she is going. She is an animated
person and we feel that she will really work well with the art educators.

E: You knew her first husband was a Catawba chief?

S: Oh, okay. I have heard a lot of things. I have met her recently.

E: I have his picture. I have a number of those pictures. You could not have a better
person. I am so proud of you preserving these things. Now, what do you envision
as how you are going to help preserve the pictures and the pottery and so forth that
would be in the new exhibit [that] the museum [is] planning to put down on the
reservation?

S: Well, I do not know at this point in time. I am not certain that we have a role yet.
That is really up to the Catawba nation.

E: It is a long time in the future, you think?

S: I do not know, I really do not know. I certainly hope that careful planning is taken
into consideration because developing a museum that maintains the appropriate
standards is so important because the only way you are ever going to get any grant
money is to have the right standards. I think that Winthrop University could be of
some technical assistance to the Catawba nation with that regard. I would suggest
[that] our only problem in that is [that] we are all stretched so thin as it is right now.
It is becoming very difficult to do some of the things, I think, that are really
important within the community. But I certainly think that the future of maintaining
a cultural heritage, knowledge of the cultural heritage, of the Catawba is probably
one of the most important projects that could be undertaken in this part of the two-
state area, for sure.

E: Are you also interested in the other crafts they are doing, the basketweaving and the
making of jewelry and beads?

S: First of all, I am not an anthropologist or folklorist, and my interest primarily was
through the exhibition. I am most interested in the pottery because it is still done
in the way it was done for as long as we know, and for certain it is the only thing that
for sure we can say is Catawba, as far as the art that is now being done, or the
artifacts that are being produced now. It is the only thing that is certain, that we
know of, that is really Catawba. The clay and Catawba pottery speaks of that culture
in a clear way.

E: They are having classes now for the basketweaving and so forth, and they are going
out in the woods and getting the berries and the things to stain their fronds. They
are going away to get new ideas of doing it. I never have seen any of the old, old

-4-










baskets, although I have seen the old pottery. Now, up in Cherokee they do a great
deal of that basketweaving, and I do not know whether it is going to grow and
expand. But young people are coming into those classes to learn how to make
baskets.

S: I think it is great that that is going on. But like I say, I think people should do
whatever they want to do. I guess my interest primarily [is] in the pottery in the
same way that I have an interest in the sweetgrass baskets, because there is that
obvious link there to a heritage that needs to be preserved.

E: What do you think about the idea of these men that are going back making pottery?
There are quite a number of them that are doing it now.

S: I think that is great. You know historically there were men who made pottery, and
I think as times change you find men who have more leisure time on their hands and
I think they find themselves in the same position that many of the women were in
an earlier time, and I think it makes all the sense in the world.

E: Besides Nola Campbell down on the reservation, what other pottery makers do you
like to visit and see? They all seem to know you down there.

S: Well, I like a lot of the work. It is interesting. I like Mildred Blue's work, for
example, for her turtles. She is the master of the turtle, for example, and also some
small objects. She just makes beautiful things in that regard. And of course, Evelyn
George has been a master teacher and continues to make some beautiful pots. Of
course, I love Earl Robbins' pieces, and what he has been able to do. And of course,
the thing about it is, to what extent his wife has been a tremendous influence on his
work as well is something that a lot of people do not talk about.

E: You know, I knew Earl Robbins when he was a carpenter out at Leslie working the
school, and he said, "I got a third grade education, if I had gotten more what could
I have done?" You know, he is like Nola Campbell, he is not only an interesting
pottery maker, but he is an interesting person.

S: Well, I think, like I said, his wife, Viola, has probably had a great deal of influence
upon him.

E: Viola and Norma are sisters, did you know that?

S: Yes. And I will tell you another story in a minute. When you go out to Earl's place,
you see Earl's pots and hers together, and I think if Earl's were not there, people
would consider her one of the major potters, because they always are looking at
Earl's and hers at the same time. Of course, she probably scrapes a lot of his pots
and polishes them too.

-5-










E: You have so many interesting things to tell. You are especially interested in the
pottery; what do you see now for the future of the Catawba's and their pottery and
their culture completely?

S: Well, I think it is going to be a bright future. It is my hope, and I can only speak as
an outsider, I am not a Catawba, and my relationship to this community is only in the
fact that I live here, but I think it is a bright future. My greatest desire is that it is
preserved with sensitivity, that it avoids the rampant commercialism that could be.
I think that there are ways to generate funds for this activity that will maintain the
integrity of the Catawba tradition. I hope that is going to be an important
consideration as we go along because that will help maintain it over the years and
sustain it, I think, in the best way for future generations, for future Catawba, and also
for the future understanding of people like myself. I certainly hope that it does not
fade away, because having a clear understanding of the diversity and the beauty that
goes into the making of a Catawba pot, and the history of the people behind it, only
makes my life richer. You know, understanding it makes my life richer even though
I will never really be totally a part of it, just having a feel for it is so important as
another human being. So, I think that is clearly part of [the experience]. One of my
hopes is that it is maintained in the most genuine way possible.



So, I feel very excited about that and I really am glad that the settlement will
hopefully allow some of this to happen in the appropriate way. And I do hope that
Winthrop can find a way [to help] if at all possible and if the Catawba nation sees
that it would be an appropriate thing to do. I hope that we can provide some
technical assistance where we are able to, because we gain so much from their
tradition of the pottery, for example, that this would only be the reasonable
contribution that we could make. Because, too, of the relationship that existed
between Winthrop and the Catawba for years, it is almost about time to pay some
of that back. I think the interest has come due on that.

E: How long have you been doing this?

S: Once again, I am not an anthropologist, I am an artist, so I guess I look at it through
the eyes of an artist as opposed to an anthropologist or folklorist, so that is really
where my interest lies. Though I have heard the word Catawba for many years,
having grown up in this general region, my better understanding of it is very, very
recent. So, that is basically what I have to say.

E: Well, I too have been blessed. I have been doing these tapes since 1971, and I have
a lot of friends on the reservation and they do not call you mister, they just call you
Tom, did you know that?


-6-










S: Oh good! [Laughter]

E: That is a very good relationship Winthrop has with the Catawbas.



















































-7-





Full Text

PAGE 1

SOUTHEASTERN INDIAN ORAL HISTORY PROJECT UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA Interviewee: Tom Stanley Interviewer: Emma Echols September 9, 1993

PAGE 2

E: This is Emma Echols, 5150 Sharon Road, Charlotte, North Carolina. I am working on the oral history of the Catawba Indians with Dr. Samuel Proctor, University of Florida. This is September 9, 1993. I am visiting at Winthrop College and I am on the gallery of all the artists' pictures around and I will let my guest tell you who he is and his official title. S: My name is Tom Stanley and I am the Director of Winthrop University Galleries in Rock Hill [South Carolina]. E: You did an amazing thing last fall when you had the big exhibit here. I was here for your program, and most of all I enjoyed being out underneath the trees with your Catawba Indian potters and what they were making. Tell me about your plans and what you did. S: Actually, the plans for that exhibition began as early as the fall of 1990. Dr. Carol Ivory came to Winthrop that year, the same year I came to Winthrop (we came together as junior faculty at that time). Her specialization in art history was the art of indigenous people. She looked primarily at the arts in the South Pacific, but also had a great interest in the arts of Native Americans. Interestingly enough, she came to Rock Hill and was not that familiar with the Catawba pottery. She went to the first Catawba festival after the Thanksgiving weekend in 1990 and made what for her was, I guess, a significant discovery, and from that point on decided that this would make an excellent exhibition. So, we began collaborating at that point on plans for the exhibition, and again doing some initial work with some of the Catawba, primarily Wenonah Haire as the chair of the cultural preservation project. And with their blessing and their help we wrote a grant to the South Carolina Humanities Council to develop not only an exhibition, but to also put on a symposium along with the exhibition, a teacher in-service for surrounding counties, the pottery demonstration which was a few days after the opening during the fall festival here in Rock Hill, outside on the grounds of Winthrop, and a publication that Dr. Ivory wrote. So there were several levels to the overall project. Dr. Ivory's primary emphasis was tracing the tradition of Catawba pottery at least within the historical context which could be traced. With that in mind, what she did was select about three contemporary potters of today and look back at those people who had taught them and who had taught the people who taught them, so [she] traced it back as far she could into at least the nineteenth century in many cases. And then in like fashion [she] looked at the people who these contemporary potters were now training, or who they had trained. For example, Georgia Harris was one of our main potters, so we looked back at those people who had taught her and, in like fashion, those people she had influenced such as Earl Robbins and Nola Campbell. And that was the thrust of the exhibition. 1

PAGE 3

We looked at three different genealogies with that in mind, and of course as you already know, everybody knows everybody and everybody is almost related to everybody else. Nonetheless, we were able to look at it in that context and that was the focus of the exhibition. So, because of that, some of the contemporary potters were not in the exhibition because their paths did not quite always cross. But it was an excellent opportunity to do that, and I suspect it was only the second exhibition since that historic exhibition in 1972 at the Columbia Museum that really looked at Catawba pottery in a serious and academic fashion and tried to make people understand once again that this indeed is the only surviving Native American pottery tradition, for sure east of the Mississippi, if not east of New Mexico in some cases, as some anthropologists suggest. So, there was that phase of it and, of course, the symposium as well. Dr. Tom Bloomer from the Library of Congress was part of the project as an important consultant to the project. He was part of the symposium, as was Dr. Doug Denatalli who is the South Carolina folk arts specialist. Interestingly enough, his wife, Gail Denatalli, assisted as an educational specialist because with the project we produced eight educational kits to be distributed free of charge for loan to area schools. Those kits contained a video, slides, slide script, histories of the Catawba, outline of the Catawba pottery tradition, as well as an actual piece of Catawba pottery, among other things, and were made available and still are being used. In fact, the kit and that project [have] been presented at the South Carolina Federation of Museums spring conference, [they have] been presented at the South Carolina art education fall workshop, and will be presented again this fall in Charleston [South Carolina] at the South Carolina art education fall workshop. Interestingly enough, because of that work (I would like to think that anyway), Dr. Tom Bloomer will be a keynote speaker at that South Carolina Art Education fall workshop. So, I think we have made some in-roads into the education community. E: You have come a long way, have you not? S: Well, we cannot take credit for it all, we just got the ball rolling, but one thing that I thought was very successful was the first part of the project back in August of 1992 as it looked forward to the exhibition and prepared teachers for the exhibition. In August, when teachers were going back to school, each discipline had their own teacher in-service or workshop a couple of days before classes began. So, we organized one specifically for art educators in the surrounding counties. We brought to Winthrop sixty art educators from not only York but some surrounding counties to hear Dr. Bloomer and Dr. Gail Denatalli who worked with three Catawba potters during the workshop to get them to talk about how they learned it, where they learned it and so on, and then also had a pottery demonstration after lunch. And it was excellent because, as some of the teachers said, "I have never understood it like this before," and it really opened some things up. That teacher in-service was so successful that School District Three asked us to do it again in the winter for all the 2

PAGE 4

social studies teachers on the third grade level, the seventh or eighth grade level, as well as [for] some high school social studies teachers as well. Here again, that turned out to be quite successful. So, essentially, we are doing that again this fall for the South Carolina Art Educational Association fall conference. E: What are the dates of that? Have you got it all set up? S: Yes, October 15, 16, and 17th down in Charleston, so we are looking forward to that. E: It will be here on the campus? S: No, it will be down in Charleston. E: Charleston, that is too far away. S: Yes, I know, I know. E: What pottery makers will go with you from the nation, or do you know? S: Nola Campbell will be the primary person who will go down. E: And Evelyn George and Catherine? S: No, just Nola, because we could not afford everybody, so Nola is going and she is taking an assistant and I do not recall her name right now. E: You know Nola's son who is making that miniature pottery? S: I have seen it, yes. E: They are all going in for making that miniature pottery now. I have seen lots of it. You know, the thing about Nola is [that] she is not only a beautiful pottery maker, but she is a beautiful person inside. S: Oh, and a storyteller. E: Because I know her background, when she quit school at fifteen and was married. S: Oh, I have heard some of the stories, it is wonderful just to listen to Nola and really enjoy her. E: When she was here on your campus the little boys gathered around her and you have a picture in your local paper of her showing the little boys how to make the pottery. 3

PAGE 5

S: Yes, they really enjoyed it and that is one reason she is going. She is an animated person and we feel that she will really work well with the art educators. E: You knew her first husband was a Catawba chief? S: Oh, okay. I have heard a lot of things. I have met her recently. E: I have his picture. I have a number of those pictures. You could not have a better person. I am so proud of you preserving these things. Now, what do you envision as how you are going to help preserve the pictures and the pottery and so forth that would be in the new exhibit [that] the museum [is] planning to put down on the reservation? S: Well, I do not know at this point in time. I am not certain that we have a role yet. That is really up to the Catawba nation. E: It is a long time in the future, you think? S: I do not know, I really do not know. I certainly hope that careful planning is taken into consideration because developing a museum that maintains the appropriate standards is so important because the only way you are ever going to get any grant money is to have the right standards. I think that Winthrop University could be of some technical assistance to the Catawba nation with that regard. I would suggest [that] our only problem in that is [that] we are all stretched so thin as it is right now. It is becoming very difficult to do some of the things, I think, that are really important within the community. But I certainly think that the future of maintaining a cultural heritage, knowledge of the cultural heritage, of the Catawba is probably one of the most important projects that could be undertaken in this part of the two state area, for sure. E: Are you also interested in the other crafts they are doing, the basketweaving and the making of jewelry and beads? S: First of all, I am not an anthropologist or folklorist, and my interest primarily was through the exhibition. I am most interested in the pottery because it is still done in the way it was done for as long as we know, and for certain it is the only thing that for sure we can say is Catawba, as far as the art that is now being done, or the artifacts that are being produced now. It is the only thing that is certain, that we know of, that is really Catawba. The clay and Catawba pottery speaks of that culture in a clear way. E: They are having classes now for the basketweaving and so forth, and they are going out in the woods and getting the berries and the things to stain their fronds. They are going away to get new ideas of doing it. I never have seen any of the old, old

PAGE 6

baskets, although I have seen the old pottery. Now, up in Cherokee they do a great deal of that basketweaving, and I do not know whether it is going to grow and expand. But young people are coming into those classes to learn how to make baskets. S: I think it is great that that is going on. But like I say, I think people should do whatever they want to do. I guess my interest primarily [is] in the pottery in the same way that I have an interest in the sweetgrass baskets, because there is that obvious link there to a heritage that needs to be preserved. E: What do you think about the idea of these men that are going back making pottery? There are quite a number of them that are doing it now. S: I think that is great. You know historically there were men who made pottery, and I think as times change you find men who have more leisure time on their hands and I think they find themselves in the same position that many of the women were in an earlier time, and I think it makes all the sense in the world. E: Besides Nola Campbell down on the reservation, what other pottery makers do you like to visit and see? They all seem to know you down there. S: Well, I like a lot of the work. It is interesting. I like Mildred Blue's work, for example, for her turtles. She is the master of the turtle, for example, and also some small objects. She just makes beautiful things in that regard. And of course, Evelyn George has been a master teacher and continues to make some beautiful pots. Of course, I love Earl Robbins' pieces, and what he has been able to do. And of course, the thing about it is, to what extent his wife has been a tremendous influence on his work as well is something that a lot of people do not talk about. E: You know, I knew Earl Robbins when he was a carpenter out at Leslie working the school, and he said, "I got a third grade education, if I had gotten more what could I have done?" You know, he is like Nola Campbell, he is not only an interesting pottery maker, but he is an interesting person. S: Well, I think, like I said, his wife, Viola, has probably had a great deal of influence upon him. E: Viola and Norma are sisters, did you know that? S: Yes. And I will tell you another story in a minute. When you go out to Earl's place, you see Earl's pots and hers together, and I think if Earl's were not there, people would consider her one of the major potters, because they always are looking at Earl's and hers at the same time. Of course, she probably scrapes a lot of his pots and polishes them too. 5

PAGE 7

E: You have so many interesting things to tell. You are especially interested in the pottery; what do you see now for the future of the Catawba's and their pottery and their culture completely? S: Well, I think it is going to be a bright future. It is my hope, and I can only speak as an outsider, I am not a Catawba, and my relationship to this community is only in the fact that I live here, but I think it is a bright future. My greatest desire is that it is preserved with sensitivity, that it avoids the rampant commercialism that could be. I think that there are ways to generate funds for this activity that will maintain the integrity of the Catawba tradition. I hope that is going to be an important consideration as we go along because that will help maintain it over the years and sustain it, I think, in the best way for future generations, for future Catawba, and also for the future understanding of people like myself. I certainly hope that it does not fade away, because having a clear understanding of the diversity and the beauty that goes into the making of a Catawba pot, and the history of the people behind it, only makes my life richer. You know, understanding it makes my life richer even though I will never really be totally a part of it, just having a feel for it is so important as another human being. So, I think that is clearly part of [the experience]. One of my hopes is that it is maintained in the most genuine way possible. So, I feel very excited about that and I really am glad that the settlement will hopefully allow some of this to happen in the appropriate way. And I do hope that Winthrop can find a way [to help] if at all possible and if the Catawba nation sees that it would be an appropriate thing to do. I hope that we can provide some technical assistance where we are able to, because we gain so much from their tradition of the pottery, for example, that this would only be the reasonable contribution that we could make. Because, too, of the relationship that existed between Winthrop and the Catawba for years, it is almost about time to pay some of that back. I think the interest has come due on that. E: How long have you been doing this? S: Once again, I am not an anthropologist, I am an artist, so I guess I look at it through the eyes of an artist as opposed to an anthropologist or folklorist, so that is really where my interest lies. Though I have heard the word Catawba for many years, having grown up in this general region, my better understanding of it is very, very recent. So, that is basically what I have to say. E: Well, I too have been blessed. I have been doing these tapes since 1971, and I have a lot of friends on the reservation and they do not call you mister, they just call you Tom, did you know that? 6

PAGE 8

S: Oh good! [Laughter] E: That is a very good relationship Winthrop has with the Catawbas. 7