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Interview with William Fred White, October 15, 1975

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Title:
Interview with William Fred White, October 15, 1975
Creator:
White, William Fred ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:
Language:
English

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Catawba Indians -- Florida
Kataba Indians -- Florida
Catawba Oral History Collection ( local )

Notes

Funding:
This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

Record Information

Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'Catawba' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management:
Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/.

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SOUTHEASTERN INDIAN ORAL HISTORY PROJECT


UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA


In cooperation with the Catawba Nation


INTERVIEWEE: Fred White
INTERVIEWER: Emma Echols


DATE: October 15, 1975




















E: This is Emma Reid Echols, Rock Hill, South Carolina, Route 6, Box 260.
I am recording the oral history of the Catawba Indians. This is October
14, 1975. I'm visiting in the home of Mr. Fred White in Rock Hill.
Mr. White, will you give me your full name?

W: William Fred White.

E: And your address?

W: 1022 Ridge Road.

E: You are living in Rock Hill now, but as a young boy you lived in the little
village of Rowells, is that right?

W: I think we lived in Rowells. Near Harmony Church is where I was born.
Later on we moved to Rock Hill and lived in a house shortly above you,
right above this place I'm living now. Later on we moved to Rowells in
1913 and lived in the home which was formerly my mother's home in 1914
and since then it's been sold. But I was raised up in that area, Rowells,
and I started to go into Catawba later on for ball games. I met up with
a lot of Indians up there. I heard of a story of a train wreck, happened
sometime in the early 1900s. I'm not sure what year, but Dr. Hill was
telling this story. The Number Eleven, which was a passing train, went
between Monroe and Atlanta, fell in the river. The trestle gave way,
which is now known as the dry trestle. There's a dry trestle over the
Seaboard Railroad. Well, it's west of the main railroad bridge. This
train was wrecked and a number of people were hurt and before they could
get any help there of any kind all the trainmen were killed. Well, if
they hadn't stopped a train in back of 'em, a freight train run in on
top of these people and then a lot more who was partially hurt was killed
then. Dr. Hill tells us a story of an injured salesman wanted the doctor
to give him something because he was on his way to Atlanta to sell some
goods. Dr. Hill said, "All I can give him was an aspirin tablet. That's
the only thing I had to give him." But later on they did get some more
doctors in there. I wish I had more information on that wreck because
it goes back for a good many years and it's talked about by especially the
older people years and years ago. At that time they operated the Indian
ferry. When I first knew it, Early Brown's father operated it. At that
time they were using a pole to pull it across and no motor or cable of any
kind was pulling the ferry across. When Early's father passed away, Early
was a young man and I think at that time he was married, so he took over
the ferry and it was a state-owned ferry. You go across; it wouldn't cost
you anything and they put a power motor on there to pull it across by
cable which was much faster than it was previously. Then later on the







2







highway department discontinued the ferry. The Indian ferry of Indians
took it over and operated it themselves which was used, no motor on this
one because, I remember, the motor part was washed away during the flood,
was one of these powerdrived motors. They used gates, I'd say about four
or five foot long and probably about three foot wide and they'd push these
gates down in the water and lock them with a bolt or nail or something
through them and have two of these, and they would pull the cable up.
They'd have an overhead cable. They'd pull the cable up and push the
ferry running off to the left of which way they were going. It would be
upstream like and the water pushing on this board would carry the ferry
all the way across and they got to about ten foot or fifteen foot of the
ferry on the other side near the bank to let off the cable and it would
drift over to the bank most all of the time. Now I remember one time
crossing the river with Early Brown. He had three little boys and they
must have been six or eight years old and he, he asked someone who was
with me, says, "You want to see these boys swim?" I said, "Can they
swim?" He said, "Oh, yes. If they can't, I'll make them swim." He
threw them off on the other side of the ferry near the end and they come up
under the ferry and come down the river and they started hollering. He
said, "Swim back. I'm not coming after you," and that's the way they get
back and those boys was grand swimmers later on because I remember going
back in there later on talking to them. Early Brown later after this
period of time, they gave it up some way and put in a new ferry and they
had enough money to build another one. Mr. Ashe used to bring loads of
bricks there from the brickyard. In fact the brickyard at one time was on
the same side of the river as the old house now standing beside the river,
which was on the west side. The ferry wasn't there at that time but he
made brick in that area because that's where all the clay comes from in
that port. Later on when the clay run out and I think they had a flood
which washed part of his machinery away. He moved over to Van Wyke and
instead of coming all the way around the Ford Mill he would come in. Then
he decided to build a ferry of his own and bring his trucks across straight
through which would be much nearer to Rock Hill. That was known as Ashe's
Ferry. He didn't have anybody that knew too much about the ferry, so he
got Early Brown to operate that ferry until, I think, his death or close
to it. He was getting up in years to where he couldn't operate it any
longer.

E: How many wagons or how many cars could cross on that ferry?

W: He carried two wagons, two cars.

E: Was there a certain charge for crossing on that ferry?

W: There was a certain charge for crossing the ferry. Seems like to me it was
a quarter or something like that. It was very, very little, not too much.







3







This at that time was supposed to be turned over to the state but at that
time there was supposed to be a pre-fare with everybody to give Early
something. Later on they did start charging for it.

E: I've read and I've heard that John Brown, Early's father, had a garden
and fruit trees and so forth down there by the river. Can you remember
that?

W: I don't know a thing about that. I remember where Early lived up across
the hill. The first time I knew, Early lived on the top of the hill,
which would be on the east side of the river from Rock Hill. A big house
up there and he had a big family, and I've been to his house a good many
times. And early years if you get across the ferry at night you had to
put your lights on, blow your horn and get up, not down close to the water
but get up somewhere where you wouldn't slide in or anything, because there's
a lot of water there. You'd blow your horn and Early would come down with
a lantern and come on across and take you across any hour of the night.
Operated all during the day.

E: That was wonderful. You were in his home sometimes. How was his home
furnished? Was it very poor or what about the food?

W: It was very, very poor and they cooked on a fireplace. They fixed things
in the fireplace pots and all. They had plain tables and there was one
big room and very few small rooms. In fact I think a lot of their children
slept in one big, big room. Early and his wife, I'm not sure about where
they were, but I do know there was a real big room in that one house when
I knew him.

E: Did you ever go hunting with Indians as a boy?

W: No, I didn't and didn't go fishing, either one.

E: But some of them did.

W: I knew some people that did but I can't remember their names right this
minute. But Early was a pretty good fisherman and he fished a lot down
there when he wasn't letting people cross the ferry.

E: What was the relationship of the white people and the Indians as you used
to remember it?

W: They was a very good relationship. They would come over to Jim Faris's
store, Catawba; there would be Simpson's store, Catawba; John Spark's
store, Catawba; and they'd come in and buy whatever they wanted to buy
and sit down and talk just like any other person would be. A lot of peo-
ple would ask them questions about "What's going on over the Indian nation?"
And they'd say, "Well, so-and-so's sick," and keep up with things like that.







4







They were very well up on what was going on because they kept in touch
with people. They didn't stay in their one spot over there by their-
self. They come in and visited a while. Chief Blue and a lot of them
used to come over to Catawba. Once in a while when they were going to
Rock Hill they would dress up in the Indian costume and go to Friedham's
Store in Rock Hill. That was the only place in Rock Hill they would like
to trade.

E: Did they ever put on any dances or exhibitions in front of Friedham's
Store?

W: Not that I know of. No, ma'am.

E: You mentioned the doctor, Dr. Hill.

W: He was their doctor and he was my uncle, but he was their doctor and they
would call him all hours of the night, which he had to go on horse and
buggy which at that time must have been about six or eight miles up in
the nation. But he would get out in any kind of weather and go up there
to treat those people. If they ever would come to his place--he had a
small office that they'd bring the children and women and men down to
his place-he'd prescribe any kind of medication for them. Naturally he
didn't have any operating material or tools and all, but he would pre-
scribe various remedies for earache and things of that kind that people
now would have to go to a regular specialist for it.

E: You're the first one that told me about the little house where he mixed
his medicines and sold his medicines.

W: Yes.

E: I didn't know he had that.

W: Yes he did and it was situated right in there. Well, the old house burned
down. The big house he used to live in was a large house, most of had
six or seven rooms in it, and when it burned down I'm not positive whether
this little house burned down with it or not. But the present location
of E. G. Hill's home, he has passed away at this time and his brother lives
there, Willie Mobley Hill, is located on the same spot that the house orig-
inally was on because the well was in the backyard and he's put a pump
in since then.

E: Now the Indians tell me that the doctor would come and if he was needed
to spend the night he would stay all night waiting to deliver a baby.

W: He would. I've heard him say, "Why, I haven't been to bed for a night
or two and I've got to go home and get some sleep." But he was very,







5







very good and he had a lot of other practice, too. He used to come over
to my uncle's, Uncle William, W. W. White. He used to come over and he
was his doctor, treated him, and he would use some very simple methods of
stopping hiccups and various things like that that people today still
don't have a remedy for it. But he had something to do to kind of check
them to keep people from having some of that.

E: Where did he get his training? Do you remember?

W: I'm not sure where. He went to some medical college. I'm not sure where
he went.

E: Probably Emory, I suppose.

W: No, I'm not positive about where he went to. If he told me one time I
forgot.

E: There was an Indian ball team that played at Catawba and some of the white
boys played with them and some of them played against them. What do you
remember about that ball team?

W: I remember going to those games. In Catawba they played over near the
Catawba High School near the Methodist church, which later on was torn
down and another church was built. When the Catawba boys played the In-
dians, we had to go up near the Indian nation in a plain open field out
there, was a real red field, and that's where the Indians played. That
was their field and then Catawba had their field over there just in back of
the old school house at that time.

E: Was there a good feeling between the whites and Indians of friendship?

W: Very good, very good.

E: Did they play together peacefully and happily, you think?

W: They did.

E: You don't remember any fights or anything of that kind.

W: Don't remember any fights.

E: You remember how fast those Indian boys could run?

W: Yes. A lot of them were good ball players, good pitchers and they played
good ball.

E: Now Mr. White, I'm interested in you. You've been working at the bleachery
for how many years?







6







W: Thirty-eight years.

E: That's Rock Hill Printing and Finishing Company, thirty-eight years and
you're now retired.

W: Started 1932 and in the cost department about ten years. During the war,
in '43, I was put in the billing department because the man in charge of
that went in the service. When he come back in 1946 he asked for his job
back and I took up several other jobs until a job come up in the cost
department in the latter part of '46. I was cost supervisor from '46
to 1970. At that time I have, speaking of Indians, been out over the
plant. I'd work up cost over the entire plant, and I bumped into a lot
of Catawba Indians, some that I knew personally and others that I have
seen in the shipping department, print department; the coloring department,
electrical department, and various other departments. They were very
good, conscientious people to work with. You could always depend on them
being there. I never heard of any complaint of any Indian ever being
out just laying out, particularly laying out. They were very capable
and the job that they did was very good.

E: What about their language? Did they use profanity or were they clean,
nice boys?

W: I don't recall of ever hearing an Indian in the whole time I was at the
bleachery ever use profane words.

E: You remember, too, when they could not build a school in Rock Hill. There
was no bus provided for them, so they had to ride to Rock Hill with their
parents and attend school and then ride home with parents.

W: Ride home.

E: This was the people who worked at the bleachery.

W: Right. That was a mighty big handicap for them because they wanted an
education just like anybody else. They never get this set up where they
could come to Rock Hill. A lot of those children and the many Indians
here that have branched out, have gone into business for themself, worked
for other people and have really done well.

E: You've seen that happen in your lifetime.

W: I have seen that happen.

E: Do you want to name any specific Indians that you know that have done well
or just generally?







7






W: No, Sammy Beck was one that Iknew real well. There was another one, his
last name was Blue, worked in the shipping department for years. His
son was deformed. Well, his son wasn't exactly deformed but he had
something wrong. He couldn't walk good and unbalanced some way and was
cystic fibrosis, what he had. Anyway, he goes with him now everywhere he
goes. I've seen them out at Rock Hill Mall sometimes. He walks up and
down there, this bad weather. He's out there most every day, you can
see him out there. I've talked to him and he asked me about a lot of
people over at the bleachery that Iknew and he knew. He's got a daughter
that lives in Salt Lake City and his daughter sends him plane tickets for
him and this boy. I'm pretty sure his wife must be dead because I never
have seen her with him. But she Chis daughter] sends him plane tickets
and he goes to Salt Lake City by plane. Takes his boy up there and spends
several weeks and maybe a month or so and would come back. Several times
during the year she does that because she's been married evidentally real
well and she said she has a nice home out there. So she is one of the
group that I know of that has done real good.

E: As far as their homes are concerned, as far as their jobs are concerned,
as far as their education, do you think they've improved in all those
areas?

W: I think they've come a long way and I wish I could say as much about some
of the white people that I know. If they had applied theirself as well
as the Indians have applied theirself, they would be in a much better po-
sition today than they are.





Full Text

PAGE 1

SOUTHEASTERN INDIAN ORAL HISTORY PROJECT UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA In cooperation with the Catawba Nation INTERVIEWEE: Fred White INTERVIEWER: Emma Echols DATE: October 15, 1975

PAGE 2

E: This is Emma Reid Echols, Rock Hill, South Carolina, Route 6, Box 260. I am recording the oral history of the Catawba Indians. This is October 14, 1975. I'm visiting in the home of Mr. Fred White in Rock Hill. Mr. White, will you give me your full name? W: William Fred White. E: And your address? W: 1022 Ridge Road. E: You are living in Rock Hill now, but as a young boy you lived in the little village of Rowells, is that right? W: I think we lived in Rowells. Near Harmony Church is where I was born. Later on we moved to Rock Hill and lived in a house shortly above you, right above thi . s place I'm living now. Later on we moved to Rowells in 1913 and lived in the home which was formerly my mother's home in 1914 and since then it's been sold. But I was raised up in that area, Rowells, and I started to go into Catawba later on for ball games. I met up with a lot of Indians up there. I heard of a story of a train wreck, happened sometime in the early 1900s. I'm not sure what year, but Dr. Hill was telling this story. The Number Eleven, which was a passing train, went between Monroe and Atlanta, fell in the river. The trestle gave way, which is now known as the dry trestle. There's a dry trestle over the Seaboard Railroad. Well, it's west of the main railroad bridge. This train was wrecked and a number of people were hurt and before they could get any help there of any kind all the trainmen were killed. Well, if they hadn't stopped a train in back of 'em, a freight train run in on top of these people and then a lot more who was partially hurt was killed then. Dr. Hill tells us a story of an injured salesman wanted the doctor to give him something because he was on his way to Atlanta to sell some goods. Dr. Hill said, "All I can give him was an aspirin tablet. That's the only thing I had to give him." But later on they did get some more doctors in there. I wish I had more information on that wreck because it goes back for a good many years and it's talked about by especially the older people years and years ago. At that time they operated the Indian ferry. When I first knew it, Early Brown's father operated it. At that time they were using a pole to pull it across and no motor or cable of any kind was pulling the ferry across. When Early's father passed away, Early was a young man and I think at that time he was married, so he took over the ferry and it was a state-owned ferry. You go across; it wouldn't cost you anything and they put a power motor on there to pull it across by cable which was much faster than it was previously ; Then later on the

PAGE 3

2 highway department discontinued the ferry. The Indian ferry of Indians took it over and operated it themselves which was used, no motor on this one because, I remember, the motor part was washed away during the flood, was one of these powerdrived motors. They used gates, I'd say about four or five foot long and probably about three foot wide and they'd push these gates down in the water and lock them with a bolt or nail or something through them and have two of :these, and they would pull the cable up. They'd have an overhead cable. They'd pull the cable up and push the ferry running off to the left of which way they were going. It would be upstream like and the water pushing on this board would carry the ferry all the way across and they got to about ten foot or fifteen foot of the ferry on the other side near the bank to let off the cable and it would drift over to the bank most all of the time. Now I remember one time crossing the river with Early Brown. He had three little boys and they must have been six or eight years old and he, he asked someone who was with me, says, "You want to see these boys swim?" I said, "Can they swim?" He said, "Oh, yes. If they can't, I'll make them swim." He threw them off on the other side of the ferry near the end and they come up under the ferry and come down the river and they started hollering. He said, "Swim back. I'm not coming after you," and that's the way they get back and those boys was grand swimmers later on because I remember going back in there later on talking to them. Early Brown later after this period of time, they gave it up some way and put in a new ferry and they had enough money to build another one. Mr. Ashe used to bring loads of bricks there from the brickyard. In fact the brickyard at one time was on the same side of the river as the old house now standing beside the river, which was on the west side. The ferry wasn't there at that time but he made brick in that area because that's where all the clay comes from in that port. Later on when the clay run out and I think they had a flood which washed part of his machinery away. He moved over to Van Wyke and instead of coming all the way around the Ford Mill he would come in. Then he decided to build a ferry of his own and bring his trucks across straight through which would be much nearer to Rock Hill. That was known as Ashe's Ferry. He didn't have anybody that knew too much about the ferry, so he got ~arly Brown to operate that ferry until, I think, his death or close to it. He was getting up in years to where he couldn't operate it any longer. E: How many wagons or how many cars could cross on that ferry? W: He carried two wagons, two cars. E: Was there a certain charge for crossing on that ferry? W: There was a certain charge for crossing the ferry. Seems like to me it was a quarter or something like that. It was very, very little, not too much.

PAGE 4

3 This at that time was supposed to be turned over to the state but at that time there was supposed to be a pre-fare with everybody to give Early something. Later on they did start charging for it. E: I've read and I've heard that John Brown, Early's father, had a garden and fruit trees and so forth down there by the river. Can you remember that? W: I don't know a thing about that. I remember where Early lived up across the hill. The first time I knew, Early lived on the top of the hill, which would be on the east side of the river from Rock Hill. A' big house up there and he had a big family, and I've been to his house a good many times. And early years if you get across the ferry at night you had to put your lights on, blow your horn and get up, not down close to the water but get up somewhere where you wouldn't slide in or anything, because there's a lot of water there. You'd blow your horn and Early would come down with a lantern and come on across and take you across any hour of the night. Operated all during the day. E: That was wonderful. You were in his home sometimes. How was his home furnished? Was it very poor or what about the food? W: It was very, very poor and they cooked on a fireplace. They fixed things in the fireplace pots and all. They had plain tables and there was one big room and very few small rooms. In fact I think a lot of their children slept in one big, big room. Early and his wife, I'm not sure about where they were, but I do know there was a real big room in that one house when I knew him. E: Did you ever go hunting with Indians as a boy? W: No, I didn't and didn't go fishing, either one. E: But some of them did. W: I knew some people that did but I can't remember their names right this minute. But Early was a pretty good fisherman and he fished a lot down there when he wasn't letting people cross the ferry. E: What was the relationship of the white people and the Indians as you used to remember it? W: They was a very good relationship. They would come over to Jim Faris's store, Catawba; there would be Simpson's store, Catawba; John Spark's store, Catawba; and they'd come in and buy whatever they wanted to buy and sit down and talk just like any other person would be. A lot of peo ple would ask them questions about "What's going on over the Indian nation?" And they'd say, "Well, so-and-so's sick," and keep up with things like that.

PAGE 5

4 They were very well up on what was going on because they kept in touch with people. They didn't stay in their one spot over there by their self. They come in and visited a while. Chief Blue and a lot of them used to come over to Catawba. Once in a while when they were going to Rock Hill they would dress up in the Indian costume and go to Friedham's Store in Rock Hill. That was the only place in Rock Hill they would like to trade. E: Did they ever put on a~y dances or exhibitions in front of Friedham's Store? W: Not that I know of. No, ma' am. E: You mentioned the doctor, Dr. Hill. W: He was their doctor and he was my uncle, but he was their doctor and they would call him all hours of the night, which he had to go on horse and buggy which at that time must have been about six or eight miles up in the nation. But he would get out in any kind of weather and go up there to treat those people. If they ever would ' come to his place--he had a small office that they'd bring the children and women and men down to his place--he'd prescribe any kind of medication for them. Naturally he didn't have any operating material or tools and all, but he would pre scribe various remedies for earache and things of that kind that people now would have to go to a regular specialist for it. E: You're the first one that told me about the little house where he mixed his medicines and sold his medicines. W: Yes. E: I didn't know he had that. W: Yes he did and it was situated right in there. Well; the old house burned down. The big house he used to live in was a large house, most of had E: W: six or seven rooms in it, and when it burned down I'm not positive whether this little house burned downwith it or not. But the present location of E. G. Hill's home, he has passed away at this time and his brother lives there, Willie Mobley Hill, is located on the same spot that the house orig inally was on because the well was in the backyard and he's put a pump in since then. Now the Indians tell me that the doctor would come and if he was needed to spend the night he would stay all night waiting to deliver a baby. He would. I've heard him say, "Why, I haven' t been to bed for a night or two and I've got to go home and get some sleep." But he was very,

PAGE 6

5 very good and he had a lot of other practice, too. He used . to come over to my uncle's, Uncle William, W.W. White. He used to come over and he was his doctor, treated him, and he would use some very simple methods of stopping hiccups and various things like that that people today still don't have a remedy for it. But he had something to do to kind of check them to keep people from having some of that. E: Where did he get his training? Do you remember? W: I'm not sure where. He went to some medical college. I'm not sure where he went. E: Probably Emory, I suppose. W: No, I'm not positive about where he went to. If he told me one time I forgot. E: There was an Indian ball team that played at Catawba and some of the white boys played with them and some of them played against them. What do you remember about that ball team? W: I remember going to those games. In Catawba they played over near the Catawba High School near the Methodist church, which later on was torn down and another church was built. When the Catawba boys played the In dians, we had to go up near the Indian nation in a plain open field out there, was a real red field, and that's where the Indians played. That was their field and then Catawba had their field over there just in back of the old school house at that time. E: Was there a good feeling between the whites and Indians of friendship? W: Very good, very good. E: Did they play together peacefully and happily, you think? W: They did. E: You don't remember any fights or anything of that kind. W: Don't remember any fights. E: You remember how fast those Indian boys could run? W: Yes. A lot of them were good ball players, good pitchers and they played good ball. E: Now Mr. White, I'm interested in you. You've been working at the bleachery for how many years?

PAGE 7

6 W: Thirty-eight years. E: That's Rock Hill Printing and Finishing Company, thirty-eight years and you're now retired. W: Started 1932 and in the cost department about ten years. During the war, in '43, I was put in the billing department because the man in charge of that went in the service. When he come back in 1946 he asked for his job back and I took up several other jobs until a job come up in the cost department in the latter part of '46. I was cost supervisor from '46 to 1970. At that time I have, speaking of Indians, been out over the plant. I'd work up cost over the entire plant, and I bumped into a lot of Catawba Indians, some that I knew personally and others that I have seen in the shipping department, print department, the coloring department, electrical department, and various other departments. They were very good, conscientious people to work with. You could always depend on them being there. I never heard of any complaint of any Indian ever being out just laying out, particularly laying out. They were very capable and the job that they did was very good. E: What about their language? Did they use profanityor were they clean, nice boys? W: I don't recall of ever hearing an Indian in the whole time I was at the bleachery ever use profane words. E: You remember, too, when they could not build a school in Rock Hill. There was no bus provided for them, so they had to ride to Rock Hill with their parents and attend school and then ride home with parents. W: Ride home. E: This was the people who worked at the bleachery. W: Right. That was a mighty big handicap for them because they wanted an education just like anybody else. They never get this set up where they could come to Rock Hill. A lot of those children and the many Indians here that have branched out, have gone into business . for themself, worked for other people and have really done well. E: You've seen that happen in your lifetime. W: I have seen that happen. E: Do you want to name any specific Indians that you know that have done well or just generally?

PAGE 8

7 W: No, Sannny Beck was one that !knew real well. There was another one, his last name was Blue, worked in the shipping department for years. His son was deformed. Well, his son . wasn't exactly deformed but he had something wrong. He couldn't walk good and unbalanced some way and was cystic fibrosis, what he had. Anyway, he goes with him now everywhere he goes. I've seen them out at Rock Hill Mall sometimes. He walks up and down there, this bad weather. He's out there most every day, you can see him out there. I've talked to him and he asked me about a lot of people over at the bleachery thatiknew and he knew. He's got a daughter that lives in Salt Lake City and his daughter sends him plane tickets for him and this boy. I'm pretty sure his wife must be dead because I never have seen her with him. But she [his daughter] sends him plane tickets and he goes to Salt Lake City by plane. Takes his boy up t:Jhere an . d spends several weeks and maybe a month or so and would come back. Several times during the year she does that because she's been married evidentally real well and she said she has a nice home out there. So she is one of the group that I know of that has done real good. E: As far as their homes are concerned, as far as their jobs are concerned, as far as their education, do you think they've improved in all those areas? W: I think they've come a long way and I wish I could say as much about some of the white people that I know. If they had applied theirself as well as the Indians have applied theirself, they would be in a much better po sition today than they are.