Citation
Interview with Mrs. Pauline Gadbury and Mrs. Isabel George, October 17, 1973

Material Information

Title:
Interview with Mrs. Pauline Gadbury and Mrs. Isabel George, October 17, 1973
Creator:
Gadbury, Pauline ( Interviewee )
George, Isabell ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:
Language:
English

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Catawba Indians -- Florida
Kataba Indians -- Florida
Catawba Oral History Collection ( local )

Notes

Funding:
This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

Record Information

Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'Catawba' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management:
Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/.

Downloads

This item has the following downloads:


Full Text


















UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA

ORAL HISTORY PROJECT




Interviewee: Mrs. Isabel George

Interviewer: Frances Wade

October 17, 1973







UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA

ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interviewee: Mrs. Isabel George
Interviewer: Frances Wade
October 17, 1973





Reflecting upon her early childhood, Mrs. Isabel George
recounts the days when she would help her mother make pottery and
ride horses bare-backed. It was a life of many hardships;
carrying water from the spring, cutting wood, and cooking on an
open fireplace. Difficult as it was, it included fond memories.







CAT84A
Interviewer: Frances Wade (I)
Interviewee: Mrs. Pauline Gadbury (P) and Mrs. Isabell George (G)
Date: October 17,1973

I: I live on Route 3, Box 304, Rock Hill, South Carolina. Today is
October 17, 1973. I am gathering oral histories of the Catawba
Indians. This is Frances Wade speaking, and I am talking with
Pauline Gadbury and Isabell George. Aunt Isabell, when you were
growing up, did you have to work in clay?

G: No, I did not have to, but my mother did. Whenever she worked
with her clay, she would let me make it up for her and help. I
would go to the spring and stop on the side of the spring place
and get red dirt. I would work it up and start making little
pots. I had a little pot sitting off the side of the road.

I: You made it out of clay?

G: I made it out of red dirt.

I: Pauline, when you were little did your mother let you work in
clay?

P: Well, I do not remember and I do not think she would let me play
in it.

I: Well, I know when I was growing up I had to work in it. I had to
help fix it up, but we could not waste any.

P: Yes, they thought the clay was precious to them.

G: It was and they could get it all on the reservation. They did
not have to go too far. It was right down the road.

I: I wish somebody would show it to me.

G: Well, it is all up and down there. In that valley where Mary
stays. There is clay right across the road from that. It has
been there for years, down at the graveyard spring, there is one
there. I can remember when I used to go there for mother. There
are two kinds of clay there, pipe clay and pan clay.

I: Well, you know, I guess most of the younger Indians do not know
where the clay is, because everybody goes across the river to the
Nesbit land to get theirs.

G: I know there is clay back down in the woods by the Collins place.
Mother used to get clay there and mix it with this clay that you
get across the river. She would make the prettiest pots you have
ever seen.

I: What kind of clay was that?




1







G: It is white-looking. It is thinner and you mix it with whatever
you put in the pots. It does not turn out all black. It will
give it all-colored spots.

P: There are red spots in it too. I remember when we used to get it
there, it had red spots in it.

I: Did you ever have to go out and get wood?

G: Oh boy, I have cut wood many a time.

I: We did too. We had to get wood to help.

G: I remember after Mama died, before we went to town and stayed to
work in the mill. Bess, Raymond, Chester, Edna, and I went to
school from early in the morning until two o'clock. Then I would
go home and get my wood. I would cut up all my wood and then
carry it in. Then I would carry in all my water, go get the
horse and feed it. I would go way up the river and get the cow,
go back and milk her. Just about the time the sun was going
down, I think at six o'clock, I would have to cook.
I: How old were you then?

G: I was not fifteen years old.

I: My! You were the oldest in the house?

G: Yes, and I would go in and make a fire. I would cook cornbread
or either biscuit bread. I would churn butter, then melt it and
that was about all we had to eat.

I: Were you afraid at night?

G: We were not afraid, we just worried you know. We sat there and
made us a fire. When we would get sleepy we would leave a big
fire and go to bed.

I: Did your house have windows or shutters on it?

G: It had shutters. It was a four room house.

I: You used the fire place to cook on?

G: Yes.

I: Could you cook good on the fireplace?

G: Yes, I cooked good on the fireplace because I was used to it.

I: Could you cook good on the fireplace Pauline?

P: I do not remember.

G: Mama made me start cooking when I was nine years old.



2







I: I did not ever really have to cook on the fireplace other than
the little birds that we killed and sweet potatoes we put in the
ashes. I remember mother cooking on the fireplace and cooking in
a skillet. She could cook biscuits really well.

G: Well, that is what I cooked on the fireplace. I did all of it.

P: I saw Mother cooking on the fireplace. She cooked real well, but
I never did do it.

I: Your mother can cook well on top of the stove too. Flapjacks,
they are really good.

G: I used to like them. I would get them every time I would go up
to her house.

I: She was a good cook was she?




G: Well, she had some of the best bread you ever ate. I thought it
was. She would do it and I helped make it up. Whenever we
would eat, if she had any left, I would eat again. I would eat
just to get the biscuits.

I: Aunt Isabell, we talked about how much education Pauline has had.
Do you remember how old you were when you started school?

G: I think I was seven years old.

I: Do you remember who your teachers were?

G: Let me see, what was that one? Kate DeVore.

I: DeVore, now I have heard that lady's name before. Was she from
Lancaster?

G: No, I think she was from Columbia.

I: What do you remember about her?

G: All I remember is she had a boy and one girl. If I am not
mistaken that is who my teacher was.

I: Where did she live? Did she live on the reservation?

G: She lived off the reservation, just about a half a mile or so off
the reservation.

I: How did she get to the schoolhouse?

G: Walked.

I: Oh she walked. I thought maybe she was riding those horses the


3







way you used to.

G: Oh, I rode my horse. I got to riding standing up on it.

I: You stood up on its back and rode, did you not?

G: Yes, I was not scared.

I: How old were you then?

G: I was sixteen years old.

I: What would you do, get down on the river bottom?

G: Yes, I would ride up and down the river.

I: Who would be with you?

G: Oh, Jess and Benny.

I: Could they ride too?
G: Yes, they would ride but they would not ride standing up like I
did.

I: You were really brave. How much education did you have Aunt
Isabell?

G: Third grade.

I: I did not know that. I heard people say that as far as any
Indian could ever get was the grade school down here. That was
about to the seventh grade. I never knew that you only had a
third grade education.

G: Well, I did go some in the fourth, but not far.

I: I know that your mama died when you were not very old. How old
were you?

G: Fourteen.

I: You were fourteen and you were more or less on your own, really
were you not? (Yes) Do you know why you did not go to school
any further than that grade?

G: Well, why I did not go to school was because we could not go on
to the outside schools. When we moved off the reservation I
could not go to school so I had to stop. Then when I moved back
I did not go any further because, well, I just quit.

I: Well what you are saying is that when you moved off of the
reservation you could not go to the white school.

G: No, the white people would not let the Indians go to school.



4







I: Well, I remember that because we could not go either. We were
among the first group that could go to high school. Just to hear
someone else say that they moved and could not go to school makes
you feel real bad. It does me.

G: I did not think I would ever learn to read. There are a lot of
hard words now that I cannot pronounce. If I just look at them
and go back over them I can pronounce them. I can read as well as
some of these kids that are in the sixth grade. I can read as
well as they can, maybe better.

I: Well, that is good. When it comes to arithmetic, can you do that
well also?

G: I cannot do it as well, but I can add my numbers, you know, for
my bills and things. I add them all up. I can do adding better
than I can do subtracting. I never did like subtracting.

I: Well, a lot of us did not.





































5





Full Text

PAGE 1

UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA ORAL HISTORY PROJECT Interviewee: Mrs. Isabel George Interviewer: Frances Wade October 17, 1973

PAGE 2

UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA ORAL HISTORY PROJECT Interviewee: Mrs. Isabel George Interviewer: Frances Wade October 17, 1973 Reflecting upon her early childhood, Mrs. Isabel George recounts the days when she would help her mother make pottery and ride horses bare-backed. It was a life of many hardships; carrying water from the spring, cutting wood, and cooking on an open fireplace. Difficult as it was, it included fond memories.

PAGE 3

CAT84A Interviewer: Frances Wade (I) Interviewee: Mrs. Pauline Gadbury (P) and Mrs. Isabell George (G) Date: October 17,1973 I: I live on Route 3, Box 304, Rock Hill, South Carolina. Today is October 17, 1973. I am gathering oral histories of the Catawba Indians. This is Frances Wade speaking, and I am talking with Pauline Gadbury and Isabell George. Aunt Isabell, when you were growing up, did you have to work in clay? G: No, I did not have to, but my mother did. Whenever she worked with her clay, she would let me make it up for her and help. I would go to the spring and stop on the side of the spring place and get red dirt. I would work it up and start making little pots. I had a little pot sitting off the side of the road. I: You made it out of clay? G: I made it out of red dirt. I: Pauline, when you were little did your mother let you work in clay? P: Well, I do not remember and I do not think she would let me play in it. I: Well, I know when I was growing up I had to work in it. I had to help fix it up, but we could not waste any. P: Yes, they thought the clay was precious to them. G: It was and they could get it all on the reservation. They did not have to go too far. It was right down the road. I: I wish somebody would show it to me. G: Well, it is all up and down there. In that valley where Mary stays. There is clay right across the road from that. It has been there for years, down at the graveyard spring, there is one there. I can remember when I used to go there for mother. There are two kinds of clay there, pipe clay and pan clay. I: Well, you know, I guess most of the younger Indians do not know where the clay is, because everybody goes across the river to the Nesbit land to get theirs. G: I know there is clay back down in the woods by the Collins place. Mother used to get clay there and mix it with this clay that you get across the river. She would make the prettiest pots you have ever seen. I: What kind of clay was that? 1

PAGE 4

G: It is white-looking. It is thinner and you mix it with whatever you put in the pots. It does not turn out all black. It will give it all-colored spots. P: There are red spots in it too. I remember when we used to get it there, it had red spots in it. I: Did you ever have to go out and get wood? G: Oh boy, I have cut wood many a time. I: We did too. We had to get wood to help. G: I remember after Marna died, before we went to town and stayed to work in the mill. Bess, Raymond, Chester, Edna, and I went to school from early in the morning until two o'clock. Then I would go home and get my wood. I would cut up all my wood and then carry it in. Then I would carry in all my water, go get the horse and feed it. I would go way up the river and get the cow, go back and milk her. Just about the time the sun was going down, I think at six o'clock, I would have to cook. I: How old were you then? G: I was not fifteen years old. I: My! You were the oldest in the house? G: Yes, and I would go in and make a fire. I would cook cornbread or either biscuit bread. I would churn butter, then melt it and that was about all we had to eat. I: Were you afraid at night? G: We were not afraid, we just worried you know. We sat there and made us a fire. When we would get sleepy we would leave a big fire and go to bed. I: Did your house have windows or shutters on it? G: It had shutters. It was a four room house. I: You used the fire place to cook on? G: Yes. I: Could you cook good on the fireplace? G: Yes, I cooked good on the fireplace because I was used to it. I: Could you cook good on the fireplace Pauline? P: I do not remember. G: Mama made me start cooking when I was nine years old. 2

PAGE 5

I: I did not ever really have to cook on the fireplace other than the little birds that we killed and sweet potatoes we put in the ashes. I remember mother cooking on the fireplace and cooking in a skillet. She could cook biscuits really well. G: Well, that is what I cooked on the fireplace. I did all of it. P: I saw Mother cooking on the fireplace. She cooked real well, but I never did do it. I: Your mother can cook well on top of the stove too. Flapjacks, they are really good. G: I used to like them. I would get them every time I would go up to her house. I: She was a good cook was she? G: Well, she had some of the best bread you ever ate. I thought it was. She would do it and I helped make it up. Whenever we would eat, if she had any left, I would eat again. I would eat just to get the biscuits. I: Aunt Isabell, we talked about how much education Pauline has had. Do you remember how old you were when you started school? G: I think I was seven years old. I: Do you remember who your teachers were? G: Let me see, what was that one? Kate Devore. I: Devore, now I have heard that lady's name before. Was she from Lancaster? G: No, I think she was from Columbia. I: What do you remember about her? G: All I remember is she had a boy and one girl. If I am not mistaken that is who my teacher was. I: Where did she live? Did she live on the reservation? G: She lived off the reservation, just about a half a mile or so off the reservation. I: How did she get to the schoolhouse? G: Walked. I: Oh she walked. I thought maybe she was riding those horses the 3

PAGE 6

way you used to. G: Oh, I rode my horse. I got to riding standing up on it. I: You stood up on its back and rode, did you not? G: Yes, I was not scared. I: How old were you then? G: I was sixteen years old. I: What would you do, get down on the river bottom? G: Yes, I would ride up and down the river. I: Who would be with you? G: Oh, Jess and Benny. I: Could they ride too? G: Yes, they would ride but they would not ride standing up like I did. I: You were really brave. How much education did you have Aunt Isabell? G: Third grade. I: I did not know that. I heard people say that as far as any Indian could ever get was the grade school down here. That was about to the seventh grade. I never knew that you only had a third grade education. G: Well, I did go some in the fourth, but not far. I: I know that your mama died when you were not very old. How old were you? G: Fourteen. I: You were fourteen and you were more or less on your own, really were you not? (Yes) Do you know why you did not go to school any further than that grade? G: Well, why I did not go to school was because we could not go on to the outside schools. When we moved off the reservation I could not go to school so I had to stop. Then when I moved back I did not go any further because, well, I just quit. I: Well what you are saying is that when you moved off of the reservation you could not go to the white school. G: No, the white people would not let the Indians go to school. 4

PAGE 7

I: Well, I remember that because we could not go either. We were among the first group that could go to high school. Just to hear someone else say that they moved and could not go to school makes you feel real bad. It does me. G: I did not think I would ever learn to read. There are a lot of hard words now that I cannot pronounce. If I just look at them and go back over them I can pronounce them. I can read as well as some of these kids that are in the sixth grade. I can read as well as they can, maybe better. I: Well, that is good. When it comes to arithmetic, can you do that well also? G: I cannot do it as well, but I can add my numbers, you know, for my bills and things. I add them all up. I can do adding better than I can do subtracting. I never did like subtracting. I: Well, a lot of us did not. 5