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Interview with Mrs. Roy Brown, October 14, 1972

Material Information

Title:
Interview with Mrs. Roy Brown, October 14, 1972
Creator:
Brown, Mrs. Roy ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:
Language:
English

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Catawba Indians -- Florida
Kataba Indians -- Florida
Catawba Oral History Collection ( local )

Notes

Funding:
This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

Record Information

Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'Catawba' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management:
Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/.

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SOUTHEASTERN INDIAN ORAL HISTORY PROJECT


UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA


In cooperation with the Catawba Nation


INTERVIEWEE: Mrs. Roy Brown
INTERVIEWER: Emma Echols


DATE: October 14, 1972




















E: This is Emma Reid Echols, Route 2, Box 260, Rock Hill, South Carolina. I'm
visiting in the home of Mrs. Roy Brown. I'm working on the oral history
of the Catawba Indians, October 14, 1972. Mrs. Brown, tell me who you
were before you were married.

B: My name was Edna Wheelock.

E: Edna Wheelock. You are married now to Mr. Roy Brown.

B: Yes.

E: Now what is your address?

B: Route 6, Box 383, Rock Hill.

E: Where were you born?

B: I was born right here in this house on the Catawba reservation.

E: This is one of the old houses on the reservation, is it not?

B: I would say this house was around seventy-five years old.

E: Tell me about your mother and father. That's a very interesting story
about your mother and father. How did they meet and so forth?

B: They met in the Indians' Carlyle School. My mother was from here and my
father was from Oneida, Wisconsin. They met.

E: He was a full-blooded Indian?

B: He was a full-blooded Indian.

E: From what tribe?

B: Oneida, sixth nation.*

E: Oneida, sixth nation.

B: Sixth nation.


*The Oneida, the sixth nation of the Iroquois tribe, were located in Oneida,
New York W U J h U v v cA) VQ -7r \ ''a V c '-": V
W^SC 6 c)5 X.







2








E: Now they met at Carlyle, Pennsylvania. Do you remember anything about
how your mother was educated before she went to Carlyle?

B: She was raised by an aunt. They sent her to Cherokee, North Carolina,
to a boarding school. She went from Cherokee, North Carolina boarding
school to this school in Carlyle.

E: There's where she met Archie, that right?

B: That's right.

E: Were they both finished from that school in Carlyle?

B: My mother didn't. The climate there and she took sick. She had to come
home. But my father did.

E: He played football while he was in that school, isn't that right?

B: Yes, ma'am, played under Jim Thorpe.

E: Under Jim Thorpe.

B: Under Jim Thorpe.

E: I understood that he was a very famous football player?

B: Yes, ma'am. He was.

E: When you're father and mother were married...where?

B: They were married here. My mother came home and he followed the following
year. I don't know just exactly how long he come on down to be married.

E: Where did they meet? They lived in this house then?

B: No, they didn't live there. They lived up there where my sister lives now.

E: Oh, where?

B: They lived up there and then my father built this house later. I think
my sister was born up there. I was born here.

E: You're really back home when you've living in the same house you were born
in.

B: I couldn't live anywhere else.

E: Tell me about what you remember as a little girl on the reservation. Tell
me what you remember about your school days and your play time.







3







B: My father worked at the Southern Railroad Company. We lived in Rock
Hill and they wouldn't let us go to the public school. So my first
ABC's was learned by a private teacher. I went to Hollis when I was seven.
I started when I was six and when I was seven, my family moved back to
the reservation. My mother taught school. My mother taught me on up to
about the fourth grade.

E: Do you remember who was the teacher that you learned your ABC's under?

B: Seem like to me her name was Miss Holly.

E: Holly.

B: Seem like to me if I can remember right. Her name was Miss Holly.

E: I believe you and Edna,and your sister, both, had those private teachers,
did you not?

B: We did. See, they wouldn't let us go to public schools at all.

E: When you went to school here with your mother, what happened after that?

B: When she quit, we went to...the Mormon church sent missionaries here.

E: What did the old school look like on the inside?

B: It just was filled up, crammed to the ceiling. It had rows of seats as
far as I can remember. There's about four rows of just benches with the
desk in front of 'em.

E: Did they have a back to...?

B: Yes.

E: Back to the benches. Were there two to each desk?

B: No, just one.

E: Just one.

B: Just one.

E: Did you use slate or did you have paper?

B: We had paper. We used pencil and paper.

E: What about lunches?

B: We always went home for dinner. We'd go home.















E: You got water from a spring, I suppose, back of the school house?

B: I believe that we carried water. They got their water from a well. There
was a well right down the road next to the church. I think that's where
they got water. But almost every family here got water. Our spring was
right over here. I carried many a bucket of water from there.

E: Good, clear, cool water.

B: What we drink now tastes like tin. Not good like it was.

E: Did you go to high school?

B: No, ma'am.

E: You didn't go to high school.

E: I got married real young.

E: You are still making pottery you told me. What do you remember about
your mother making pottery?

B: Yes, she did. I've got some pieces back in my cedar chest that my mother
made.

E: Oh, you have?

B: I have.

E: You remember your mother making pottery. You have some of her pieces?

B: Yes, ma'am. I have four pieces of hers.

E: Did she teach you how to form the pipes and the pieces that you make?

B: Yes, I learned from her.

E: What did your mother teach you about forming the clay and making it into
pieces?

B: I always watched her when she'd form the clay up and shape out the pieces.
I rubbed 'em for her with the rub rocks when I was old enough to help that.

E: You still have your mother's rubbing rocks?

B: Yes, we have some.

E: You wouldn't part with that, would you?







5








B: I've got one rubbing rock that one of my great aunts gave me. I
guess it would be 100 years old. I got one rock that my mother had.

E: You are making pottery today? Do you bake it the same way your mother
did? How'd your mother bake pottery?

B: We had open fireplaces then. They would build a fire in the middle
and line the pottery around in it. Build a little fire in the middle,
and they'd be increasing the heat, and these pieces is warmed up, grad-
ually. When they got hot enough, they'd build a fire on to them. Now
we heat ours in the stove, carry them outdoors and burn them in the
pits. That's the difference now between then. See, I don't have a
fireplace.

E: Do you get pretty colors in yours?

B: Yes, ma'am, I get pretty colors in mine.

E: What kind of wood do you use?

B: Oh, Roy gets me oak, hickory and the green wood. The green wood is
what spots them. The dry wood won't spot them good. The green wood
is what does it.

E: It depends entirely on the wood what colors you'll have?

B: Sometimes, uh huh.

E: Where do you get the clay?

B: Across the river over in Lancaster County.

E: I guess Roy brings your clay for you?

B: Yes, he went over there, hasn't been a month ago.

E: Tell me about this work. You're gonna make some for Carowinds, I believe?

B: My sister is.

E: You may make some later?

B: Yes.

E: You're still making pottery?

B: Yeah, I have some shaped out now, but when I found out I had to go to the
hospital, I just packed them away. I didn't fool with them anymore till
I got ready to. When I get better, I'll take it up again.







6








E: I'm interested in your family. You've got such a fine family and
they've all gone ahead in their education. Tell me, your first hus-
band was who? Your first husband, what was his name?

B: Thatcher.

E: Thatcher. What children did you have by Mr. Thatcher?

B: Peggy and Harold.

E: Peggy and Harold. Peggy married....

B: Alfred Harris.

E: Alfred Harris. From that family what grandchildren do you have?

B: I have Teddy, Kenneth, Vicki, Terry, Alice, and Daryl.

E: Those six grandchildren, what ones have finished school or college?

B: Kenneth finished at BYU, and Teddy has one year in BYU. He's a Mormon
missionary right now. He told me when he returns from being a missionary,
two years in a mission field, he'll resume his education at BYU.

E: Then Vicki is at the high school?

B: Vicki graduated from high school, and she's a secretary at York General
Hospital.

E: The others are still in school, one finished this June.

B: June Thatcher finished two years ago. She's a ward secretary at York
General. Steve finished last year. He's working at U. S. Plywood.
Pamela Thatcher is a senior this year.

E: Isn't that a wonderful record?

B: The last three I named are my son's children.

E: You didn't have a chance to go to high school yourself?

B: No.

E: But your children managed.

B: Every one of them.







7








E: Then you think it's a much better day for the Indian now than it used
to be?

B: Yes, I do. You can go to high school or college and anything like
that. Lots better than the days when we were coming up. Cause it's just
like I told you, my father had to hire a private teacher for my sister
and I to go to school.

E: What about the health conditions on the reservation? In 1918, I believe
it was, they had such a bad flu epidemic, and so many people died on the
reservation. What about conditions today? Is it much better today?

B: It's much better today. It's very much better.

E: Roy Brown, your second husband, almost died during that flu:epidemic.
Were you sick at that time, too?

B: I didn't have it bad. I had a light case of it, but I didn't have it
bad. I was about eight years old in that time and I had a very light
case of it.

E: I believe the Red Cross sent out from Rock Hill and sent food out here.
Some of the white ladies of the community helped serve it. Do you re-
member anything about that?

B: No, I don't.

E: Some of the older ones have told me about that. Those were bad days.
Tell me what you remember about any of the older people. Remember any
of the things the older Indians used to tell, the stories, the tales
they would tell?

B: Well, lot of them used to tell us about what they called wild Indians
to try and scare us. They'd say, "Little wild Indians would get after
us." They would say they were little people, like little elves. Sis-
ter's husband, Andrew, his grandmother used to tell him that he would
sit over a crack at night, these little wild Indians would pull the feet
through the crack. He was scared. He said he was scared at night to
sit over a crack. In those times be a big crack in the floor. He said
he sat on one board right still while his grandmother told him stories.

E: That was Mrs. Sam Blue? That was Mrs. Blue that was telling him wild
stories?

B: No, she was Brown.

E: Oh, Mrs. Brown. Did other people tell about those little people, too?






8








B: Yes, everybody. They used to say if you would leave your baby's diaper
pan out after night that wild Indians would ride over, would sit, would
bother the babies at night and they couldn't sleep.

E: Did they have any stories about birds and owls at all?

B: No, I don't believe.

E: You all make so much of your pottery in the shape of little animals,
turtles, and things like that. Did you ever hear any stories of the
animals associated with the pottery pieces you make?

B: No, you just make them. Just shape I imagine.

E: You remember your grandmother, don't you? Did she make pottery too?

B: My grandmotheron my mother's side left when my mother was a small child
and went to Florida. I don't think I saw her but one time in my life.
She came back one time. If she ever made pottery, anything like that,
I don't know, because I only saw her one time.

E: I would love to see that piece of pottery you said your mother made.
Could you get it right now?

B: Uh huh.

E: Mrs. Brown, this is that little turtle that your mother made. It's
marked "Catawba River Mud Turtle," very small little fella with his
head perked up in the air, his eyes looking out at you and inside he's
hollow. Your mother died what year?

B: She died June 20, of '35.

E: And this is her piece. The other one here is a little tiny duck. I
suppose that's what it is. The little duck's wings are decorated as
if she's done it maybe with a little nail. It's black and golden yellow
for the tail. This one interests me a great deal. This is a little
pot that the colors are beautiful. They're grey and black. I've seen
lots of them fluted at the top, but this one is fluted in seven places.
I notice you are fluting yours in eight. Your mother made this one too,
did she not?

B: Yes, ma'am.

E: But this one is the most unusual of all. This is a pipe. I've seen
lots of Indian pipes, but I've never seen a design like this. It's in
a little tiny checkerboard and it's done perfectly. The little checker-
boards on the cock's comb--is that what you call the cock's comb?

B: It's a spear pipe.







9








E: Oh, it's a spear pipe. Across the top of the spear and on the pipe
itself. The hole is very, very small to draw the smoke with. Do you
make this same kind yourself?

B: Yes, ma'am.

E: What will you put this design on with?

B: Something round, like a shoe button or anything that I can get that
won't scratch, any kind of smooth object that won't scratch.

E: That is very lovely. I'm so glad to see these things that your mother
made.
Mrs. Brown, what does your church believe about healing?

B: Well, they believe anointing our heads with oil and laying their hands
upon them, like Jesus did when he was on earth. Anointing, giving us
a special blessing, and a prayer. Now I'll get that before I go to the
hospital. They'll come and they'll anoint my head with oil and they'll
give me a blessing that I'll come through that. They'll ask for the
Lord to bless the surgeon to guide his hands and I'll be protected
through that. That's the kind of blessing that I'll get before I go
to the hospital.

E: What do you say to the elders? Your elders will come to your home?

B: The elders will come to my home. By the way, my grandson that graduated
from BYU is an elder.

E: That's wonderful. Your husband had a unique experience with death.
'Course you don't remember that, 'cause he's older than you. But during
the flu epidemic he was very ill. Tell me what happened.

B: Same thing as Chief Blue. Chief Blue was his father, and his brother
and he come and anointed him, and prayed for him, and they brought him
back to life, they said after they....

E: They thought he was dead.

B: They gave him up for dead. They come and administer. That's what we
call it, "administer" to him. They lay their hands on his head and anoint
his head with oil and he come back to...he'll be sixty-seven in January.

E: Does he remember that or was he just too sick to remember all that?

B: He was too sick to remember. He don't remember.

E: But there were so many that died during that flu epidemic.

B: Yes.







10







RB: We had seven that died.

E: Seven in your family, Mrs.Brown, that died. Do you remember any stories
that were ever told about the old man, Thomas Stephens? Of course it
was beyond your day, but maybe your father, your mother, or your grand-
parents told about Thomas Stephens, the old man who froze to death?

B: I don't know anything about it. Only just that he froze to death.
That's all that I ever heard of it.

E: You keep the old cemetery in good shape. You also keep the new one
rather than....

B: My father and mother were both buried down at the old cemetery. That's
where I want to be buried, down there with them. I don't want to be
buried in the new cemetery. I want to be buried down there with my father
and mother on the river.

E: That's right. That's a beautiful spot down there, isn't it?

B: It is.

E: The Catawbas also have another tract of land on the river where you all
have recreation, things of that kind?

B: No.

E: Oh, you don't.

B: The only recreation we have is through the church. All our recreation
is planned through the church. We have it up there in the schoolhouse
auditorium.

E: What kind of recreation do you have for the young people or for anybody?

B: They have just a little bit of everything. They have dances, they take
trips to the King's Mountain. Back in July we all went to King's Mountain
for swimming. The young people went swimming. We all took a picnic
lunch, spent the afternoon and walked the trails. The church plans all
kinds of things like that for the young people and the old combined.
The church sponsors all our recreation.

E: What connection do you have with the Cherokee Indians?

B: One of my distant cousins married into Cherokee.

E: Is that the Owl family?

B: Uh huh.

E: I notice Mrs. Owl is the editor of the Cherokee newspaper. I saw an
article by her the other day. Do you ever go to Cherokee to visit?







11








B: Yes, I go there once in a while. I haven't been there since I've been
sick, 'cause I been sick so long. But my cousin Lola Owl [was] gonna
be ninety years old in December. She come down to see me just before
she died. She was here when she died. The day she died she was here.
She's ninety years old and she drove the road from up there here.

E: That's amazing. Are you really proud to be an Indian? So many tell
me they are proud.

B: I am. I'm proud to be an Indian.

E: What quality do you see in your people that you're proud of?

B: Well, in fact, we always said we know where we come from. We were here
when Columbus discovered America. We were here. So we know where we
come from. We were here.

E: Yes. Do you ever hear your father or your mother or any of the olders
tell how this tribe of Catawba Indians happened to be here on the
Catawba River?

B: No. I have heard they had a big fight with the Cherokees and this is
where they run back to settle, down this way. They had a terrible
battle with the Cherokees and they run back here to settle.

E: Do you think your children and grandchildren are learning the history
of your people or is there enough written about the history of your
people?

B: No, they're not learning. I haven't got a grandchild that can make a
piece of pottery.

E: Is that right? But you're still making it and still studying it?

B: Yes. I had just got to a place where I was feeling just a little bit
like making some, after the serious illness I had. Then I got sick
again and had to go back, so I couldn't.

E: Well, I'm sure when you come out of the hospital, you'll be making pot-
tery again.

B: Yes, ma'am. If all's well, we'll start again.





Full Text

PAGE 1

SOUTHEASTERN INDIAN ORAL HISTORY PROJECT UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA In cooperation with the Catawba Nation INTERVIEWEE: INTERVIEWER: Mrs. Roy Brown Emma Echols DATE: October 14, 1972

PAGE 2

E: This is Emma Reid Echols, Route 2, Box 260, Rock Hill, South Carolina. I'm visiting in the home of Mrs. Roy Brown. I'm working on the oral history of the Catawba Indians, October 14, 1972. Mrs. Brown, tell me who you were before you were married. B: My name was Edna Wheelock. E: Edna Wheelock. You are married now to Mr. Roy Brown. B: Yes. E: Now what is your address? B: Route 6, Box 383, Rock Hill. E: Where were you born? B: I was born right here in this house on the Catawba reservation. E: This is one of the old houses on the reservation, is it not? B: I would say this house was around seventy-five years old. E: Tell me about your mother and father. That's a very interesting story about your mother and father. How did they meet and so forth? B: They met in the Indians' Carlyle School. My mother was from here and my father was from Oneida, Wisconsin. They met. E: He was a full-blooded Indian? B: He was a full-blooded Indian. E: From what tribe? B: Oneida, sixth nation.* E: Oneida, sixth nation. B: Sixth nation. *The Oneida, the sixth nation of the Iroquois tribe, were located in Oneida, New York LI()~~ I 17 9 't \..-..., V\ \I\ rl") '< y I/"" a \J Qc) ,\-c, ' V\ O_ { E:e;_ v1_e_o,.r & V'iie',!tU, ~~C.'<.',f J 'vJ~SC:6"'$1V'l. l

PAGE 3

2 E: Now they met at Carlyle, Pennsylvania. Do you remember anything about how your mother was educated before she went to Carlyle? B: She was raised by an aunt. They sent her to Cherokee, North Carolina, to a boarding school. She went from Cherokee, North Carolina boarding school to this school in Carlyle. E: There's where she met Archie, that right? B: That's right. E: Were they both finished from that school in Carlyle? B: My mother didn't. The climate there and she took sick. She had to come home. But my father did. E: He played football while he was in that school, isn't that right? B: Yes, ma~am, played under Jim Thorpe. E: Under Jim Thorpe. B: Under Jim Thorpe. E: I understood that he was a very famous football player? B: Yes, ma'am. He was. E: When you're father and mother were married where? B: They were married here. My mother came home and he followed the following year. I don't know just exactly how long he come on down to be married. E: Where did they meet? They lived in this house then? B: . No, they didn't live there. They lived up there where my sister lives now. E: Oh, where? B: They lived up there and then my father built this house later. I think my sister was born up there. I was born here. E: You're really back home when you've living in the same house you were born in. B: I couldn't live anywhere else. E: Tell me about what you remember as a little girl on the reservation. Tell me what you remember about your school days and your play time.

PAGE 4

3 B: My father worked at the Southern Railroad Company. We lived in Rock Hill and they wouldn't let us go to the public school. So my first ABC's was learned by a private teacher. I went to Hollis when I was seven. I started when I was six and when I was seven, my family moved back to the reservation. My mother taught school. My mother taught me on up to about the fourth grade. E: Do you remember who was the teacher that you learned your ABC's under? B: Seem like to me her name was Miss Holly. E: Holly. B: Seem like to me if I can remember right. Her name was Miss Holly. E: I believe you and Edna,and your sister, both, had those private teachers, did you not? B: We did. See, they wouldn't let us go to public schools at all. E: When you went to school here with your mother, what happened after that? B: When she quit, we went to the Mormon church sent missionaries here. E: What did the old school look like on the inside? B: It just was filled up, crammed to the ceiling. It had rows of seats as far as I can remember. There's about four rows of just benches with the desk in front of 'em. E: Did they have a back to ? B: Yes. E: Back to the benches. Were there two to each desk? B: No, just one. E: Just one. B: Just one. E: Did you use slate or did you have paper? B: We had paper. We used pencil and paper. E: What about lunches? B: We always went home for dinner. We'd go home.

PAGE 5

4 E: You got water from a spring, I suppose, back of the school house? B: I believe that we carried water. They got their water from a well. There was a well right down the road next to the church. I think that's where they got water. But almost every family here got water. Our spring was right over here. I carried many a bucket of water from there. E: Good, clear, cool water. B: What we drink now tastes like tin. Not good like it was. E: Did you go to high school? B: No, ma'am. E: You didn't go to high school. E: I got married real young. E: You are still making pottery you told me. What do you remember about your mother making pottery? B: Yes, she did. I've got some pieces back in my cedar chest that my mother made. E: Oh, you have? B: I have. E: You remember your mother making pottery. You have some of her pieces? B: Yes, ma'am. I have four pieces of hers. E: Did she teach you how to form the pipes and the pieces that you make? B: Yes, I learned from her. E: What did your mother teach you about forming the clay and making it into pieces? B: I always watched her when she'd form the clay up and shape out the pieces. I rubbed 'em for her with the rub rocks when I was old enough to help that. E: You still haveyourmother's rubbing rocks? B: Yes, we have some. E: You would't part with that, would you?

PAGE 6

5 B: I've got one rubbing rock that one of my great aunts gave me. I guess it would be 100 years old. I got one rock that my mother had. E: You are making pottery today? Do you bake it the same way your mother did? How'd your mother bake pottery? B: We had open fireplaces then. They would build a fire in the middle and line the pottery around in it. Build a little fire in the middle, and they'd be increasing the heat, and these pieces is warmed up, grad ually. When they got hot enough, they'd build a fire on to them. Now we heat ours in the stove, carry them outdoors and burn them in the pits. That's the difference now between then. See, I don't have a fireplace. E: Do you get pretty colors in yours? B: Yes, ma'am, I get pretty colors in mine. E: What kind of wood do you use? B: Oh, Roy gets me oak, hickory and the green wood. The green wood is what spots them. The dry wood won't spot them good. The green wood is what does it. E: It depends entirely on the wood what colors you'll have? B: Sometimes, uh huh. E: Where do you get the clay? B: Across the river over in Lancaster County. E: I guess Roy brings your clay for you? B: Yes, he went over there, hasn't been a month ago. E: Tell me about this work. You're gonna make some for Carowinds, I believe? B: My sister is. E: You may make some later? B: Yes. E: You're still making pottery? B: Yeah, I have some shaped out now, but when I found out I had to go to the hospital, I just packed them away. I didn't fool with them anymore till I got ready to. When I get better, I'll take it up again.

PAGE 7

6 E: I'm interested in your family. You've got such a fine family and they've all gone ahead in their education. Tell me, your first hus band was who? Your first husband, what was his name? B: Thatcher. E: Thatcher. What children did you have by Mr. Thatcher? B: Peggy and Harold. E: Peggy and Harold. Peggy married B: Alfred Harris. E: Alfred Harris. From that family what grandchildren do you have? B: I have Teddy, Kenneth, Vicki, Terry, Alice, and Daryl. E: Those six grandchildren, what ones have finished school or college? B: Kenneth finished at BYU, and Teddy has one year in BYU. He's a Mormon missionary right now. He told me when he returns from being a missionary, two years in a mission field, he'll resume his education at BYU. E: Then Vicki is at the high school? B: Vicki graduated from high school, and she's a secretary at York General Hospital. E: The others are still in school, one finished this June. B: June Thatcher finished two years ago. She's a ward secretary at York General. Steve finished last year. He's working at U. S. Plywood. Pamela Thatcher is a senior this year. E: Isn't that a wonderful record? B: The last three I named are my son's children. E: You didn't have a chance to go to high school yourself? B: No. E: But your children managed. B: Every one of them.

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7 E: Then you think it's a much better day for the Indian now than it used to be? B: Yes, I do. that. Lots like I told and I to go You can go to high school or college and anything like better than the days when we were coming up. Cause it's just you, my father had to hire a private teacher for my sister to school. E: What about the health conditions on the reservation? In 1918, I believe it was, they had such a bad flu epidemic, and so many people died on the reservation. What about conditions today? Is it much better today? B: It's much better today. It's very much better. E: Roy Brown, your second husband, almost died during that flu , ~epidemic. Were you sick at that time, too? B: I didn't have it bad. I had a light case of it, but I didn't have it bad. I was about eight years old in that time and I had a very light case of it. E: I believe the Red Cross sent out from Rock Hill and sent food out here. Some of the white ladies of the community helped serve it. Do you re member anything about that? B: No, I don't. E: Some of the older ones have told me about that. Those were bad days. Tell me what you remember about any of the older people. Remember any of the things the older Indians used to tell, the stories, the tales they would tell? B: Well, lot of them used to tell us about what they called wild Indians to try and scare us. They'd say, "Little wild Indians would get after us." They would say they were little people, like little elves. Sis ter's husband, . Andrew, his grandmother used to tell him that he would sit over a crack at night, these little wild Indians would pull the feet through the crack. He was scared. He said he was scared at night to sit over a crack. In those times be a big crack in the floor. He said he sat on one board right still while his grandmothertold him stories. E: That was Mrs. Sam Blue? That was Mrs. Blue that was telling him wild stories? B: No, she was Brown. E: Oh, Mrs. Brown. Did other people tell about those little people, too?

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8 B: Yes, everybody. They used to say if you would leave your baby's diaper pan out after night that wild Indians would ride over, would sit, would bother the babies at night and they couldn't sleep. E: Did they have any stories about birds and owls at all? B: No, I don't believe. E: You all make so much of your pottery in the shape of little animals, turtles, and things like that. Did you ever hear any stories of the animals associated with the pottery pieces you make? B: No, you just make them. Just shape I imagine. E: You remember your grandmother, don't you? Did she make pottery too? B: My grandmother on my mother' s side left when my mother was a small child and went to Florida. I don't think I saw her but one time in my life. She came back one time. If she ever made pottery, anything like that, I don't know, because I only saw her one time. E: I would love to see that piece of pottery you said your mother made. Could you get it right now? B: Uh huh. E: Mrs. Brown, this is that little turtle that your mother made. It's marked "Catawba River Mud Turtle," very small little fella with his head perked up in the air, his eyes looking out at you and inside he's hollow. Your mother died what year? B: She died June 20, of '35. E: And this is her piece. The other one here is a little tiny duck. I suppose that's what it is. The little duck's wings are decorated as if she's done it maybe with a little nail. It's black and golden yellow for the tail. This one interests me a great deal. This is a little pot that the colors are beautiful. They're grey and black. I've seen lots of them fluted at the top, but this one is fluted in seven places. I notice you are fluting yours in eight. Your mother made this one too, did she not? B: Yes, ma'am. E: But this one is the most unusual of all. This is a pipe. I've seen lots of Indian pipes, but I've never seen a design like this. It's in a little tiny checkerboard and it's done perfectly. The little checker boards on the cock's comb--is that what you call the cock's comb? B: It's a spear pipe.

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9 E: Oh, it's a spear pipe. Across the top of the spear and on the pipe itself. The hole is very, very small to draw the smoke with. Do you make this same kind yourself? B: Yes, ma'am. E: What will you put this design on with? B: Something round, like a shoe button or anything that I can get that won't scratch, any kind of smooth object that won't scratch. E: That is very lovely. I'm so glad to see these things that your mother made. Mrs. Brown, what does your church believe about healing? B: Well, they believe anointing our heads with oil and laying their hands upon them, like Jesus did when he was on earth. Anointing, giving us a special blessing, and a prayer. Now I'll get that before I go : to the hospital. They' 11 come and they!ll anoint my head with oil and they' 11 give me a blessing that I'll come through that. They'll ask for the Lord to bless the surgeon to guide his hands and I'll be protected through that. That's the kind of blessing that I'll get before I go to the hospital. E: What do you say to the elders? Your elders will come to your home? B: The elders will come to my home. By the way, my grandson that graduated from BYU is an elder. E: That's wonderful. Your husband had a unique experience with death. 'Course you don't remember that, 'cause he's older than you. But during the flu epidemic he was very ill. Tell me what happened. B: Same thing as Chief Blue. Chief Blue was his father, and his brother and he come and anointed him, and prayed for him, and they brought him back to life, they said after they E: They thought he was dead. B: They gave him up for dead. They come and administer. That's what we call it, "administer" to him. They lay their hands onhis head and anoint his head with oil and he come back to he'll be sixty-seven in January. E: Does he remember that or was he just too sick to remember all that? B: He was too sick to remember. He don't remember. E: But there were so many that died during that flu epidemic. B: Yes.

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10 RB: We had seven that died. E: Seven in your family, Mrs.Brown, that died. Do you remember any stories that were ever told about the old man, Thomas Stephens? Of course it was beyond your day, but maybe your father, your mother, or your grand parents told about Thomas Stephens, the old man who froze to death? B: I don't know anything about it. Only just that he froze to death. That's all that I ever heard of it. E: You keep the old cemetery in good shape. You also keep the new one rather than B: My father and mother were both buried down at the old cemetery. That's where I want to be buried, down there with them. I don't want to be buried in the new cemetery. I want to be buried down there with my father and mother on the river. E: That's right. That's a beautiful spot down there, isn't it? B: It is. E: The Catawbas also have another tract of land on the river where you all have recreation, things of that kind? B: No. E: Oh, you don't. B: The only recreation we have is through the church. All our recreation is planned through the church. We have it up there in the schoolhouse auditorium. E: What kind of recreation do you have for the young people or for anybody? B: They have just a little bit of everything. They have dances, they take trips to the King's Mountain. Back in July we all went to King's Mountain for swimming. The young people went swinnning. We all took a picnic lunch, spent the afternoon and walked the trails. The church plans all kinds of things like that for the young people and the old combined. The church sponsors all our recreation. E: What connection do you have with the Cherokee Indians? B: One of my distant cousins married into Cherokee. E: Is that the Owl family? B: Uh huh. E: I notice Mrs. Owl is the editor of the Cherokee newspaper. I saw an article by her the other day. Do you ever go to Cherokee to visit?

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11 B: Yes, I go there once in a while. I haven't been there since I've been sick, 'cause I been sick so long. But my cousin Lola Owl [was] gonna be ninety years old in December. She come down to see me just before she died. She was here when she died. The day she died she was here. She's ninety years old and she drove the road from up there here. E: That's amazing. Are you really proud to be an Indian? So many tell me they are proud. B: I am. I'm proud to be an Indian. E: What quality do you see in your people that you're proud of? B: Well, in fact, we always said we know where we come from. We were here when Columbus discovered America. We were here. So we know where we come from. We were here. E: Yes. Do you ever hear your father or your mother or any of the olders tell how this tribe of Catawba Indians happened to be here . on the Catawba River? B: No. I have heard they had a big fight with the Cherokees and this is where they run back to settle, down this way. They had a terrible battle with the Cherokees and they run back here to settle. E: Do you think your children and grandchildren are learning the history of your people or is there enough written about the history of your people? B: No, they're not learning. I haven't got a grandchild that can make a piece of pottery. E: Is that right? But you're still making it and still studying it? B: Yes. I had just got to a place where I was feeling just a little bit like making some, after the serious illness I had. Then I got sick again and had to go back, so I couldn't. E: Well, I'm sure when you come out of the hospital, you'll be making pot tery again. B: Yes, ma'am. If all's well, we'll start again.