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Interview with Georgia Harris April 5 1972

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Title:
Interview with Georgia Harris April 5 1972
Creator:
Harris, Georgia ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:
Language:
English

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Subjects / Keywords:
Catawba Indians -- Florida
Kataba Indians -- Florida
Catawba Oral History Collection ( local )

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Funding:
This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

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Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'Catawba' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
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Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/.

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SOUTHEASTERN INDIAN ORAL HISTORY PROJECT


UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA


In cooperation with the Catawba Nation


INTERVIEWEE: Mrs. Georgia Harris
INTERVIEWER: Emma Echols


DATE: April 5, 1972




















E: This is Emma Reid Echols, Route 6, Box 260, Rock Hill, South Carolina.
This is April 5, 1972. I'm visiting in the home of Mrs. Georgia
Harris. I'm working on the oral history of the Catawba Indians. Mrs.
Harris, will you tell me your full name?

H: My full name is Georgia Henrietta Harris.

E: What is your address?

H: Route 3, Box 1, Rock Hill, South Carolina.

E: Mrs. Harris, you're living on part of what is now the new reservation.
Tell me where you were born.

H: I was born in Lancaster County, July 29, 1905.

E: Where did you go to school? Where was your home?

H: We moved back to the reservation December of 1905, when I was four
months old. I went to school there. I didn't go to school till I
was about eight years old 'cause my daddy thought I was too little.

E: Who was your first school teacher? Was Mrs. Dunlap your teacher?

H: It was a professor.

E: Professor Davis?

H: I don't know his name.

E: We'll come back to that. You don't have to know that. Tell me about
those first days of school that you remember.

H: I didn't go a full year. I just went after Christmas, after the weather
cleared. I went for about four months out of the year. I made my
grade. I lost my father, I think, after the first year I went to school
in 1912.

E: Tell me about your father. What work did he do?

H: Mostly he was a truck farmer and everybody said he raised the largest
fruit they've ever seen. I remember one of the neighbors said they
went over and bought some from him and they were large as a half a
gallon jug. They were just huge.







2







E: He lived close to the river when he operated his ferry, didn't he?

H: Yeah, we lived right on the river.

E: So was his farmland along the river?

H: He. didn't farm too much then. He just did gardening then mostly.
But after we moved back on the reservation he didn't do anything but
truck farming.

E: You went to school in the spring then from Christmas on. Do you remember
Miss Macie Stevenson? Was she ever one of your teachers?

H: No, I didn't get to go to school with her, but I remember her.

E: What do you remember about Miss Macie?

H: I just remember she was a tall woman.

E: She loved music and she used to teach the children a lot of music. Some
of the other ones taught music. Did you ever take music lessons when
you were going to school down there?

H: Not there. I took music lessons later, but not from her.

E: After your school days on the reservation, what did you do for your
education?

H: Packed up and left one day. We all went up there and, of course, they
put us in school.

E: That was free schools provided at that time.

H: For being in _. We went one year there. After he stayed there
a year he was ready to come back home.

E: Which grandfather was this?

H: Ep Harris.

E: Ep Harris. Your grandfather was Ep Harris and who was your grandmother?

H: Martha Jane.

E: Martha Jane White, wasn't it?

H: Yeah, she was a White.

E: Then you came back here. What did you do next?







3







H: We came back in the summer on the Fourth of July, I remember distinctly.
We rode one of these big ole long surreys. You remember the surreys?
That's what brought us home. I never will forget that. I enjoyed
every bit of it. We stayed there and then we went back to school at
the reservation. So I made a grade there again.

E: Who were your teachers this time? Do you remember?

H: Let's see, I did go to Miss I did go to her. And Miss
Stevenson.

E: You didn't go to Miss Hope's?

H: No.

E: There were quite a number in there. When you were going to school, what
did you do about your lunches? Was that provided at school?

H: No, we walked home and back for our lunch every day which was just
about almost a mile.

E: Would there be a bell to ring to remind you to come back to school?

H: No, I don't think they rang one at dinner time. They rang 'em in the
morning. But we always hurried home and hurried back. Be there in time
for school.

E: Were there good roads to go to school or was it just a red clay road?

H: Just a red clay road. That's all we had. Nobody fixed the roads up
then.

E: What about high school? Did you ever have a chance to go to high school?

H: I went a little bit, I guess. I stayed down there and I went to school
till I was in the sixth or seventh grade. Then I went back to North
Carolina and I went to school there up until the eighth grade. I
finished the eighth grade there.

E: Then you took nurses' training somewhere. Where did you do that?

H: I took that in Lancaster, South Carolina.

E: Now are you a registered nurse?

H: No, an LPN.







4







E: That means what?

H: A licensed practical nurse.

E: That's a very fine service that you render. Are you the only nurse
that you know of among the Indians or are there other ones who also
take the training working in the hospitals?

H: I'm the only one far as I know right now. But it's something I always
wanted to do.

E: You find many opportunities for service, don't you?

H: I've never been without any since I've been. It's something I've
enjoyed better than I've done anything in my life.

E: Do the Indians also come to you for help sometimes when they are sick?

H: Occasionally I have to give a shot sometimes, for diabetes, or things
like that.

E: After you took your nurses' training, you married. Tell me about the
man you married.

H: I married Douglas Harris. I had knew him all my life. We married and
raised two sons.

E: Was he a full-blooded Indian?

H: No, his mother was white.

E: You're not a full-blooded Indian?

H: No, ma'am. I'm not quite full.

E: Where did you live? Where did you have a home and raise your two boys?

H: I partly raised 'em on the old reservation. I stayed down there till
my oldest boy was in service, when he was seventeen. Then I moved up
on the new land and I've been here ever since.

E: You have a lovely home here. You have a beautiful view from your front
window. You can see way across there.

H: Yeah, I enjoy it very much. It's close enough to town to enjoy it.

E: I'm interested in what happened when the reservation lands were divided
up. I believe you had a granddaughter that had an unusual story con-
cerning that. Tell me about the division of lands and what you all got.







5







H: They did that according to the families. If you had a good many in
your family got more land or more money, whichever you took. We all
took land. Of course me and my husband didn't get too much. I think
we ended up with about ten acres.

E: This land is part of the new reservation?

H: Uh huh.

E: What about your son? He was married at that time?

H: Yeah, my son was married. I think he got about thirteen or fourteen
acres. My son with thelittle girl that was the last one that was born
on the list to receive any of the aid from the government. He had
seven.

E: And this was Cheryl, the little girl?

H: Cheryl.

E: The lands were divided on July 4, is that correct? The little baby
was born...?

H: June 27.

E: She got here just in time.

H: Time to get her name on the list.

E: To have a share of that reservation. I believe there was a newspaper
article written about her at that time, is that true?

H: There was a newspaper article, a picture of her and her daddy and momma
both. We both still have that clipping that was in the paper.

E: Where are your two sons living now?

H: Well, Cheryl Ann and her daddy, they live in Ashland, Ohio. Floyd, my
oldest boy, lives in Atlanta.

E: Both of your boys, what do they do for a living? What occupation?

H: My oldest boy is a mechanic. He works in Lockheed Aircraft and that's
pretty well been his life. He's worked there practically ever since
before he got married. He's worked aircraft.

E: And your other son?

H: My other son [is] working in a rubber company in Ashland.







6







E: Where did your sons go to school and take their training for their
occupations?

H: They went to school mostly here in Rock Hill High School.

E: Do you feel like the Indians are having a new day for them, a new chance
now that the schools opened to them, and occupations are open to them
without any discrimination? Do you feel like it's a new day for them?

H: I think it is. I think it has been real good.

E: One thing that I have heard is very few of the Catawba Indians are ever
on relief or on welfare. You as a nurse would know about that. What
about that?

H: I think it's pretty well true. There's not many on relief.

E: You really look after your own people?

H: Uh huh. We always look after our everything, especially our church,
also. We have a church that really takes care of their old or aged or
anybody that gets sick and unable to work. They always come in and give
help.

E: Did you have a registered nurse there or elder in your church?

H: Yes, ma'am.

E: Who is it? The church's elder?

H: Milton Osborn.

E: Does he live on the reservation?

H: He lives down there right in front of the church.

E: That's good.

H: He's my bishop.

E: I didn't know the title you called him. He's a bishop?

H: He's a bishop.

E: Then what helpers does he have?

H: He has two other counselors that will help him.

E: Do they live on the reservation, too?







7







H: Gilbert doesn't. No, neither one, after this last business on the reser-
vation.

E: Who are his two counselors?

H: Lavon Blue is one and Buford Blue is the other.

E: Are they cousins or brothers?

H: They're cousins.

E: I believe you have a seminary course that's taught in your church by
Mrs. Wade, is that correct?

H: That's right. It has been wonderful for the young people.

E: What does she do with the young people?

H: She teaches them the Scripture and they take 'em out on trips, things
like that. I think it's been about two weeks ago they went to Cherokee
Reservation. They go to different places, like Atlanta and Charlotte,
and different places around they take 'em, that have entertainment.

E: The old days are gone. Is there anyone on the reservation or around
here that speaks any of the Catawba language?

H: Not any that I know of.

E: Did your father and mother speak the language?

H: My mother did. I don't expect my father did.

E: No one writes it Idon't suppose either?

H: No, no one writes it.

E: Gilbert remembers some of the chants that his grandfather used to use.
He says he can't speak it, but he remembers some of the chants.

H: He was the last one who could speak it.

E: You remember some of the ones who were wonderful leaders in your tribe.
You were speaking of Ben Harris and Robert Harris who taught themselves
to read. Tell me about how those young boys who got an education.

H: They got it the hard way. They had to work. They borrowed books and
learned from anyone wherever they could get books. I remember after he
got where he could read real good he'd go in to borrow books to read
to keep himself up.







8







E: Was that Ben?

H: That's Ben.

E: Robert was the last one of the full-blooded Indians living, was he not?

H: That's right.

E: I remember there was a clipping in the Evening Herald on Robert Harris.
He was such an outstanding leader. Didn't Ben Harris ever teach school?

H: Yes, ma'am, he taught school at one time.

E: I know you're too young to remember the school building itself, but
maybe your father and mother told you. About the little school building
that Ben Harris taught, what kind of a building was it?

H: It was just a weatherboard building, very small. It might of been forty
feet long maybe. They eventually added another room to it. I think
about eighteen by something by twenty. That was the school for the
children to attend till they built this other schoolhouse.

E: Did the Indians build their buildings themself, provide their own lumber?

H: They provided their own lumber and built it themselves.

E: There were lots of good carpenters on the reservations, weren't there?

H: There used to be. Used to be some good carpenters. Mr. John Sanders,
if you've heard of him?

E: Yes, I have.

H: He was a good carpenter. Bill Sanders, that was his brother; Jim Sanders,
his brother; all of those were carpenters.

E: Some of those worked for white people in the community, didn't they?

H: Yeah, they went out and did work for people.

E: What about the pottery? I notice you have some much pretty pottery on the
mantle of your living room. Do you enjoy making it or do you make it for
sale or what?

H: I just enjoy making it. I haven't made any for sale for years and years.
I learned from my grandmother and my mother. I was just small and they'd
be making pottery. I just loved to sit down and fool with the dirt.
My mother used to get after us, "Git out of there, you'll get dirtied
up." My grandmother'd say, "Let 'em alone. Let 'em play. That's only
way they're gonna learn."







9








E: What about the smoothing stones? You had the old smoothing stones.

H: Oh, yeah. I have some that I guess are relics. Probably some of 'em
are 100 years old.

E: Do you have any old arrowheads or any old artifacts?

H: I don't have any arrowheads, but I used to have some. They got lost
somewhere, I don't know where.

E: I imagine your father had lots of things of that kind in his home?

H: They used to have some, but I don't know, over the years we didn't
think too much about 'em, I guess.

E: Mrs. Harris, I know you've seen a lot of changes. Could you tell us
some of the changes you've seen in the homes and the ownership of the
land. How has that affected the people?

H: I think it's given more pride in knowing that they could own their own
homes and build their own homes than they've been used to. That's
one of the things that's helped them out a lot, I think, and improved
the situation in their own reservation.

E: What about this school? Has that been a help for them?

H: The school has been a great help because when I was coming up, I didn't
have the chances and the privileges that the young people have today.
Of course I'm proud that my grandchildren and my future grandchildren
have been able to go to school and be educated where I didn't have that
privilege.

E: You see changes in the health conditions, I know, being a nurse. Tell
me about the changes you've seen from a health viewpoint.

H: I think there's a big improvement there because they've been more educated
in the ways of living conditions. They've improved about their health.
They can see where they can what they can do and what education
has helped 'em that much.

E: Are there many sick people on the reservation? Are there many crippling
conditions among the children that you know about?

H: Well, I told my husband, "Since I've been in the nursing profession,
there's one thing." I said, "The Indian people have really been blessed.
You didn't see many children that was deformed or mentally retarded
children on the reservation like you did elsewhere." -I said I think that
was a great blessing the Lord had put on us.







10







E: In the polio epidemic were there any of the children who had polio in
the reservation?

H: Long years ago I lost two brothers with polio. Course it was known as
infantile paralysis then. and everybody went out and had these
shots for checking the prevention, to keep from having it.

E: The flu epidemic of 1918 is a date that everyone remembers on the reser-
vation. I believe you were at Cherokee at that time. But you heard
about this, what do you remember about it?

H: I remember in one family especially, John Brown's family, he lost about
four children, I believe, and one grandchild. Even while he was burying
one, another one died in the home. My grandmother was there taking care
of 'em. Stayed with the family until they all got better.

E: What doctors do you remember came to the reservation?

H: The only doctor I remember--he brought me into the world--was Dr. Hill.
We thought he was it.

E: How did he travel into the reservation? Did he have the old horse and
buggy?

H: He had an old horse and buggy. I'll never forget. Had an old gray
horse.

E: Did the horse have aname?

H: I don't remember his horse's name, but I remember him driving that old
gray horse and buggy to the reservation any time of the night or any
time of the day.

E: If it was needed, would he sometimes spend the night?

H: Yes, ma'am. He was good enough, he'd spend the night, because I remember
when my first child was born, he spent the night with me. He brought
me into the world, and he brought my first son in the world.

E: So the people on the reservation really loved him, didn't they?

H: They sure did. They thought there was nothing like him.

E: Did they call him "Dr. Hill" or did they just call him "Doc?"

H: They called him "Dr. Hill."

E: He must have been a brilliant doctor, along with







11








H: We all thought he was at that time.

E: After Dr. Hill, what other doctors did you have on the reservation?

H: We didn't have another doctor out there. The next doctor we had was in
Rock Hill after Dr. Hill died. I can't remember his name. Because
he didn't live very long hisself when he died. Then we had Dr. Black-
man. We had Dr. Blackman until Dr. Patton moved out here.

E: By this time the Indians could go to the hospitals.

H: They could go to the hospitals before then, but they just depended on
these doctors.

E: Being a nurse you probably know a good deal about the herbs and the
medicines that were made on the reservation. Chief Blue used to make
some and other people did, too. They had ointments and salves and med-
icines that were made, too.

H: I guess my folks never did take too much to anything like that. They
never did use any, except my grandmother said that my grandfather, Ep
Harris, knew the medicine that would cure this venereal disease. She
said that he used to cure people, but he never would tell her what it
was. Why, I don't know. So when he died, that did too.

E: When you needed medicine, you bought from Rock Hill then. There's no
medicines made in your grandmother's time.

H: No, no one made any medicines there. They didn't make any more.

E: I wonder if there're still any herbs on the reservation that could be
made into medicines today?

H: I guess it's still there. What there used to be. I remember Chief Blue
used to use that bear root for rheumatism.

E: Did it really help?

H: A lot of people say it does. I never did use it. I should I guess.
Need some now.

E: I hear different stories about the burial customs of the Catawba Indians.
Was there any certain time of day that a person was buried?

H: I don't know. Most of 'em I guess was buried in the afternoon, as far as
I can remember. Always after dinner.

E: Did you go to Chief Blue's funeral service?







12







H: Yes.

E: Do you remember anything about that?

H: I remember he was buried in the afternoon.

E: You were telling me Chief Blue's funeral was in the afternoon. Was that
customary to have it in the afternoon or could you have it any time it
was convenient?

H: It could be anytime it's convenient but most of the time they have 'em in
the afternoon. One of the reasons is a lot of the people have jobs and
are out working. Sometimes you make it convenient for other people to
attend the funeral.

E: Your father was in charge of the ferry, at Brown's Ferry, I believe, and
Thomas Stevens crossed over that his last night when he froze to death.
Will you tell me what you remember your father and mother telling you
about Thomas Stevens?

H: He was there at their house and ate supper. He wanted to go over to
visit another friend that night. It was cold, rainy and freezing, and my
mother tried to get him to stay the night there, but he refused. He
said he just got to git on over there and so he left. The next morning
they learned that he was frozen.

E: What name did your mother and father call him?

H: They called him "Uncle Tom Stevens."

E: That was an affectionate name, "Uncle Tom."

H: It was something I'll always remember my mother tellin' me about it. He
loved to teach little children. But he was playing with 'em. She said
he loved 'em, and he loved people.

E: I believe he carried things in his pocket to give to them from time to
time.

H: That's right. I think everyone loved Uncle Tom, as far as I can ever
remember about him.

E: Did your mother and father tell you how he looked? He was 110 years
old. Was his hair long and white? I wonder how he looked.

H: I think it was kind of 'bout to his ears, his hair was, and it was gray.
But his pictures I couldn't tell ya anything how he looked.

E: He was a lover of children. Everyone says that he loved children.







13







H: That's right.

E: There're many interesting people like that you need to remember and write
down in the past because their stories will soon be gone.

H: That's right.

E: Did you ever remember any stories that your father and mother told about
who they were, or where they come from, or what they said about their
old Catawba families?

H: You know, that's one of the things I've always regretted: My father
and mother not tellin' us a lot of the past because now we'd like to
get up a genealogy and we can go only so far and then we can't go any
farther. It leaves a blank space there. I'd loved to know a little
more about my generation.

E: We'll have to save all the things we know now, won't we?

H: Yeah, I'll try to prepare for my children that way. I'll try to leave
records and things so that they won't be lost like I am.

E: Do you think most of the Catawba people are proud to be a Catawba now?

H: I'm sure they are. They don't have anything to be ashamed of.

E: That's true.

H: Not a thing to be ashamed of.

E: I think that should be stressed everywhere.

H: Yeah, that's one of the things that I want my children to know: who they
are, where they come from, and never be ashamed of it.





Full Text

PAGE 1

SOUTHEASTERN INDIAN ORAL HISTORY PROJECT UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA In cooperation with the Catawba Nation INTERVIEWEE: Mrs. Georgia Harris INTERVIEWER: Emma Echols DATE: April 5, 1972

PAGE 2

E: This is Ennna Reid Echols, Route 6, Box 260, Rock Hill, South Carolina. This is April 5, 1972. I'm visiting in the home of Mrs. Georgia Harris. I'm working on the oral history of the Catawba Indians. Mrs. Harris, will you tell me your full name? H: My full name is Georgia Henrietta Harris. E: What is your address? H: Route 3, Box 1, Rock Hill, South Carolina. E: Mrs. Harris, you're living on part of what is now the new reservation. Tell me where you were born. H: I was born in Lancaster County, July 29, 1905. E: Where did you go to school? Where was your home? H: We moved back to the reservation December of 1905, when I was four months old. I went to school there. I didn't go to school till I was about eight years old 'cause my daddy thought I was too little. E: Who was your first school teacher? Was Mrs. Dunlap your teacher? H: It was a professor. E: Professor Davis? H: I don't know his name. E: We'll come back to that. You don't have to know that. Tell me about those first days of school that you remember. H: I didn't go a full year. I just went after Christmas, after the weather cleared. I went for about four months out of the year. I made my grade. I lost my father, I think, after the first year I went to school in 1912. E: Tell me about your father. What work did he do? H: Mostly he was fruit they've went over and gallon jug. a truck farmer and everybody said he raised ever seen. I remember one of the neighbors bought some from him and they were large as They were just huge. the largest said they a half a

PAGE 3

2 E: He lived close to the river when he operated his ferry, didn't he? H: Yeah, we lived right on the river. E: So was his farmland along the river? H: He didn't farm too much then. He just did gardening then mostly. But after we moved back on the reservation he didn't do anything but truck farming. E: You went to school in the spring then from Christmas on. Do you remember Miss Macie Stevenson? Was she ever one of your teachers? H: No, I didn't get to go to school with her, but I remember her. E: What do you remember about Miss Macie? H: I just remember she was a tall woman. E: She loved music and she used to teach the children a lot of music. Some of the other ones taught music. Did you ever take music lessons when you were going to school down there? H: Not there. I took music lessons later, but not from her. E: After your school days on the reservation, what did you do for your education? H: Packed up and left one day. We all went up there and, of course, they put us in school. E: That was free schools provided at that time. H: For being in ____ We went one year there. After he stayed there a year he was ready to come back home. E: Which grandfather was this? H: Ep Harris. E: Ep Harris. Your grandfather was Ep Harris and who was your grandmother? H: Martha Jane. E: Martha Jane White, wasn't it? H: Yeah, she was a White. E: Then you came back here. What did you do next?

PAGE 4

3 H: We came back in the sunnner on the Fourth of July, I remember distinctly. We rode one of these big ole long surreys. You remember the surreys? That's what brought us home. I never will forget that. I enjoyed every bit of it. We stayed there and then we went back to school at the reservation. So I made a grade there again. E: Who were your teachers this time? Do you remember? H: Let's see, I did go to Miss ---Stevenson. E: You didn't go to Miss Hope's? H: No. I did go to her. And Miss E: There were quite a number in there. When you were going to school, what did you do about your lunches? Was that provided at school? H: No, we walked home and back for our lunch every day which was just about almost a mile. E: Would there be a bell to ring to remind you to come back to school? H: No, I don't think they rang one at dinner time. They rang 'em in the morning. But we always hurried home and hurried back. Be there in time for school. E: Were there good roads to go to school or was it just a red clay road? H: Just a red clay road. That's all we had. Nobody fixed the roads up then. E: What about high school? Did you ever have a chance to go to high school? H: I went a little bit, I guess. I stayed down there and I went to school till I was in the sixth or seventh grade. Then I went back to North Carolina and I went to school there up until the eighth grade. I finished the eighth grade there. E: Then you took nurses' training somewhere. Where did you do that? H: I took that in Lancaster, South Carolina. E: Now are you a registered nurse? H: No, an LPN.

PAGE 5

4 E: That means what? H: A licensed practical nurse. E: That's a very fine service that you render. Are you the only nurse that you know of among the Indians or are there other ones who also take the training working in the hospitals? H: I'm the only one far as I know right now. But it's something I always wanted to do. E: You find many opportunities for service, don't you? H: I've never been without any since I've been. It's something I've enjoyed better than I've done anything in my life. E: Do the Indians also come to you for help sometimes when they are sick? H: Occasionally I have to give a shot sometimes, for diabetes, or things like that. E: After you took your nurses' training, you married. Tell me about the man you. married H: I married Douglas Harris. I had knew him all my life. We married and raised two sons. E: Was he a full-blooded Indian? H: No, his mother was white. E: You're not a full-blooded Indian? H: No, ma'am. I'm not quite full. E: Where did you live? Where did you have a home and raise your two boys? H: I partly raised 'em on the old reservation. I stayed down there till my oldest boy was in service, when he was seventeen. Then I moved up on the new land and I've been here ever since. E: You have a lovely home here. You have a beautiful view from your front window. You can see way across there. H: Yeah, I enjoy it very much. It's close enough to town to enjoy it. E: I'm interested up. I believe cerning that. in what happened when the reservation lands were divided you had a granddaughter that had an unusual story con Tell me about the division of lands and what you all got.

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5 H: They did that according to the families. If you had a good many in your family got more land or more money, whichever you took. We all took land. Of course me and my husband didn't get too much. I think we ended up with about ten acres. E: This land is part of the new reservation? H: Uh huh. E: What about your son? He was married at that time? H: Yeah, my son was married. I think he got about thirteen or fourteen acres. My son with the little girl that was the last one that was born on the list to receive any of the aid from the government. He had seven. E: And this was Cheryl, the little girl? H: Cheryl. E: The lands were divided on July 4, is that correct? The little baby was born ? H: June 27. E: She got here just in time. H: Time to get her name on the list. E: To have a share of that reservation. I believe there was a newspaper article written about her at that time, is that true? H: There was a newspaper article, a picture of her and her daddy and monnna both. We both still have that clipping that was in the paper. E: Where are your two sons living now? H: Well, Cheryl Ann and her daddy, they live in Ashland, Ohio. Floyd, my oldest boy, lives in Atlanta. E: Both of your boys, what do they do for a living? What occupation? H: My oldest boy is a mechanic. He works in Lockheed Aircraft and that's pretty well been his life. He's worked there practically ever since before he got married. He's worked aircraft. E: And your other son? H: My other son [is] working in a rubber company in Ashland.

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6 E: Where did your sons go to school and take their training for their occupations? H: They went to school mostly here in Rock Hill High School. E: Do you feel like the Indians are having a new day for them, a new chance now that the schools opened to them, and occupations are open to them without any discrimination? Do you feel like it's a new day for them? H: I think it is. I think it has been real good. E: One thing that I have heard is very few of the Catawba Indians are ever on relief or on welfare. You as a nurse would know about that. What about that? H: I think it's pretty well true. There's not many on . relief. E: You really look after your own people? H: Uh huh. We always look after our everything, especially our church, also. We have a church that really takes care of their old or aged or anybody that gets sick and unable to work. They always come in and give help. E: Did you have a registered nurse there or elder in your church? H: Yes, ma'am. E: Who is it? The church's elder? H: Milton Osborn. E: Does he live on the reservation? H: He lives down there right in front of the church. E: That's good. H: He's my bishop. E: I didn't know the title you called him. He's a bishop? H: He's a bishop. E: Then what helpers does he have? . H: He has two other counselors that will help him. E: Do they live on the reservation, too?

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7 H: Gilbert doesn't. No, neither one, after this last business on the reser vation. E: Who are his two counselors? H: Lavon Blue is one and Buford Blue is the other. E: Are they cousins or brothers? H: They're cousins. E: I believe you have a seminary course that's taught in your church by Mrs. Wade, is that correct? H: That's right. It has been wonderful for the young people. E: What does she do,with the young people? H: She teaches them the Scripture and they take 'em out on trips, things like that. I think it's been about two weeks ago they went to Cherokee Reservation. They go to different places, like Atlanta and Charlotte, and different places around they take 'em, that have entertainment. E: The old days are gone. Is there anyone on the reservation or around here that speaks any of the Catawba language? H: Not any that I know of. E: Did your father and mother speak the language? H: My mother did. I don't expect my father did. E: No one writes it I don't suppose either? H: No, no one writes it. E: Gilbert remembers some of the chants that his grandfather used to use. He says he can't speak it, but he remembers some of the chants. H: He was the last one who could speak it. E: You remember some of the ones who were wonderful leaders in your tribe. You were speaking of Ben Harris and Robert Harris who taught themselves to read. Tell me about how those young boys who got an education. H: They got it the hard way. They had to work. They borrowed books and learned from anyone wherever they could get books. I remember after he got where he could read real good he'd go in to borrow books to read to keep himself up.

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8 E: Was that Ben? H: That's Ben. E: Robert was the last one of the full-blooded Indians living, was he not? H: That's right. E: I remember there was a clipping in the Evening Herald on Robert Harris. He was such an outstanding leader. Didn't Ben Harris ever teach school? H: Yes, ma'am, he taught school at one time. E: I know you're too young to remember the school building itself, but maybe your father and mother told you. About the little school building that Ben Harris taught, what kind of a building was it? H: It was just a weatherboard building, very small. It might of been forty feet long maybe. They eventually added another room to it. I think about eighteen by something by twenty. That was the school for the children to attend till they built this other schoolhouse. E: Did the Indians build their buildings themself, provide their own lumber? H: They provided their own lumber and built it themselves. E: There were lots of good carpenters on the reservations, weren't there? H: There used to be. Used to be some good carpenters. Mr. John Sanders, if you've heard of him? E: Yes, I have. H: He was a good carpenter. BillSanders, that was his brother; Jim Sanders, his brother; all of those were carpenters. E: Some of those worked for white people in the community, didn't they? H: Yeah, they went out and did work for people. E: What about the pottery? I notice you have some much pretty pottery on the mantle of your living room. Do you enjoy making it or do you make it for sale or what? H: I just enjoy making it. I haven't made any for sale for years and years. I learned from my grandmother and my mother. I was just small and they'd be making pottery. I just loved to sit down and fool with the dirt. My mother used to get after us, l'Git out of there, you'll get dirtied up." My grandmother' d say, "Let 'em alone. Let 'em play. That's only way they're gonna learn."

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9 E: What about the smoothing stones? You had the old smoothing stones. H: Oh, yeah. I have some that I guess are relics. Probably some of 'em are 100 years old. E: Do you have any old arrowheads or any old artifacts? H: I don't have any arrowheads, but I used to have some. They got lost somewhere, I don't know where. E: I imagine your father had lots of things of that kind in his home? H: They used to have some, but I don't know, over the years we didn't think too much about 'em, I guess. E: Mrs. Harris, I know you've seen a lot of changes. Could you tell us some of the changes you've seen in the homes and the ownership of the land. How has that affected the people? H: I think it's given more pride in knowing that they could own their own homes and build their own homes than they've been used to. That's one of the things that's helped them out a lot, I think, and improved the situation in their own reservation. E: What about this school? Has that been a help for them? H: The school has been a great help because when I was coming up, I didn't have the chances and the privileges that the young people have today. Of course I'm proud that my grandchildren and my future grandchildren have been able to go to school and be educated where I didn't have that privilege. E: You see changes in the health conditions, I know, being a nurse. Tell me about the changes you've seen from a health viewpoint. H: I think there's a big improvement there because they've been more educated in the ways of living conditions. They've improved about their health. They can see where they can , what they can do and what education ----has helped 'em that much. E: Are there many sick people on the reservation? Are there many crippling conditions among the children that you know about? H: Well, I told my husband, "Since I've been in the nursing profession, there's one thing." I said, "The Indian people have really been blessed. You didn't see many children that was deformed or mentally retarded children on the reservation like you did elsewhere." .I said I think that was a great blessing the Lord had put on us.

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10 E: In the polio epidemic were there any of the children who had polio in the reservation? H: Long years ago I lost two brothers with polio. Course it was known as infantile paralysis then. ____ and everybody went out and had these shots for checking the prevention, to keep from having it. E: The flu epidemic of 1918 is a date that everyone remembers on the reser vation. I believe you were at Cherokee at that time. But you heard about this, what do you remember about it? H: I remember in one family especially, John Brown's family, he lost about four children, I believe, and one grandchild. Even while he was burying one, another one died in the home. My grandmother was there taking care of 'em. Stayed with the family until they all got better. E: What doctors do you remember came to the reservation? H: The only doctor I remember--he brought me into the world--was Dr. Hill. We thought he was it. E: How did he travel into the reservation? Did he have the old horse and buggy? H: He had an old horse and buggy. I'll never forget. Had an old gray horse. E: Did the horse have a mme? H: I don't remember his horse' . s name, but I remember him driving that old gray horse and buggy to the reservation any time of the night or any time of the day. E: If it was needed, would he sometimes spend the night? H: Yes, ma'am. He was good enough, he'd spend the night, because I remember when my first child was born, he spent the . night with me. He brought me into the world, and he brought my first son in the world. E: So the people on the reservation really loved him, didn't they? H: They sure did. They thought there was nothing like him. E: Did they call him "Dr. Hill" or did they just call him"Doc?" H: They called him "Dr. Hill." E: He must have been a brilliant doctor, along with ---

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11 H: We all thought he was at that time. E: After Dr. Hill, what other doctors did you have on the reservation? H: We didn't have another doctor out there. The next doctor we had was in Rock Hill after Dr. Hill died. I can't remember his name. Because he didn't live very long hisself when he died. Then we had Dr. Black man. We had Dr. Blackman until Dr. Patton moved out here. E: By this time the Indians could go to the hospitals. H: They could go to the hospitals before then, but they just depended on these doctors. E: Being a nurse you probably know medicines that were made on the some and other people did, too. icines that were made, too. a good deal about the herbs and the reservation. Chief Blue used to make They had ointments and salves and medH: I guess my folks never did take too much to anything like that. They never did use any, except my grandmother said that my grandfather, Ep Harris, knew the medicine that would cure this venereal disease. She said that he used to cure people, but he never would tell her what it was. Why, I don't know. So when he died, that did too. E: When you needed medicine, you bought from Rock Hill then. There's no medicines made in your grandmother's time. H: No, no one made any medicines there. They didn't make any more. E: I wonder if there're still any herbs on the reservation that could be made into medicines today? H: I guess it's still there. What there used to be. I remember Chief Blue used to use that bear root for rheumatism. E: Did it really help? H: A lot of people say it does. I never did use it. I should I guess. Need some now. E: I hear different stories about the burial customs of the Catawba Indians. Was there any certain time of day that a person was buried? H: I don't know. Most of 'em I guess was buried in the afternoon, as far as I can remember. Always after dinner. E: Did you go to Chief Blue's funeral service?

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12 H: Yes. E: Do you remember anything about that? H: I remember he was buried in the afternoon. E: You were telling me Chief Blue's funeral was in the afternoon. Was that customary to have it in the afternoon or could you have it any time it was convenient? H: It could be anytime it's convenient but most of the time they have 'em in the afternoon. One of the reasons is a lot of the people have jobs and are out working. Sometimes you make it convenient for other people to attend the funeral. E: Your father was in charge of the ferry, at Brown's Ferry, I believe, and Thomas Stevens crossed over that his last night when he froze to death. Will you tell me what you remember your father and mother telling you . about Thomas Stevens? H: He was there at their house and ate supper. He wanted to go over to visit another friend that night. It was cold, rainy and freezing, and my mother tried to get him to stay the night there, but he refused. He said he just got to git on over there and so he left. The next morning they learned that he was frozen. E: What name did your mother and father call him? H: They called him "Uncle Tom Stevens. 11 E: That was an affectionate name, "Uncle Tom." H: It was something I'll always remember my mother tellin' me about it. He loved to teach little children. But he was playing with 'em. She said he loved 'em, and he loved people. E: I believe he carried things in his pocket to give to them from time to time. H: That's right. I think everyone loved Uncle Tom, as far as I can ever remember about him. E: Did your mother and father tell you how he looked? He was 110 years old. Was his hair long and white? I wonder how he looked. H: I think it was kind of 'bout to his ears, his hair was, and it was gray. But his pictures I couldn't tell ya anything how he looked. E: He was a lover of children. Everyone says that he loved children.

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13 H: That's right. E: There're many interesting people like that you need to remember and write down in the past because . their stories will soon be gone. H: That's right. E: Did you ever remember any stories thatyourfather and mother told about who they were, or where they come from, or what they said about their old Catawba families? H: You know, that's one of the things I've always regretted: My father and mother not tellin' us a lot of the past because now we'd like to get up a genealogy and we can go only so far and then we can't go any farther. It leaves a blank space there. I'd loved to know a little more about my generation. E: We~ll have to save all the things we know now, won't we? H: Yeah, I'll try to prepare for my children that way. I'll try to leave records and things so that they won't be lost like I am. E: Do you think most of the Catawba people are proud to be a Catawba now? H: I'm sure they are. They don't have anything to be ashamed of. . E: That's true. H: Not a thing to be ashamed of. E: I think that should be stressed everywhere. H: Yeah, that's one of the things that I want my children to know: who they are, where they come from, and never be ashamed of it.