Citation
Interview with Maxine Brown, September 19, 1972

Material Information

Title:
Interview with Maxine Brown, September 19, 1972
Creator:
Brown, Maxine ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:
Language:
English

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Catawba Indians -- Florida
Kataba Indians -- Florida
Catawba Oral History Collection ( local )

Notes

Funding:
This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

Record Information

Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'Catawba' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management:
Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/.

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CAT 54 A DMC

Interviewer: Whitesell

Subject: Maxine Brown

Date: September 19, 1972



I: This is an interview with Riva(?) Maxine Brown, September 19, 1972.

This interview takes place in a classroom at Rock Hill High School.

belonging to(?) Mrs. Whitesell. This is Mrs. Whitesell

doing the interview. Maxine, I'd like for you to tell us who

you are.

S: I'm Maxine Brown and I'm a Catawba Indian of Rock Hill, South

Carolina.

I: Alright, how old are you Maxine?

S: I'll be twenty next month.

I: You will be twenty.

S: Uh huh.

I: Alright. Were you born in Rock Hill.

S: Yes mam, I was born at St. Phillips Hospital.

I: Here in Rock Hill.

S: Yes mam.

I: Did you live in Rock Hill.

S: Yes mam. We always lived in Rock Hill. My grandparents lived

in Rock Hill.

I: Alright, it's been several generations then since your people

lived on the reservation.

S: Yes mam;,it has.

I: Did you go to school in Rock Hill?

S: Yes mam. In grades one through four, I went to school on the








CAT 54 A page 2



reservation. We had two teachers and we had two classrooms

and a auditorium and a kitchen and two restrooms.

I: So, you'd go back to go to Catawba to go to school, even though

you lived in town?

S: We lived on the reservation.

I: And, you went to the reservation.

S: Uh huh.

I: Alright, and those were grades one through four?

S: Yes mam.
your
I: Do you remember / teachers?

S: Yes mam. They were Mrs. Cornish of Rock Hill and Mrs. Robinson.

Mrs. Robinson later got us started at Leslie Elementary in

grades, 5 thru 7, I think it was.

I: Were you at the reservation then when the school was done away

with?

S: Yes mam.

I: Oh, you were one of the last students there?

S: Yes mam.

I: Do yon remember the year? Well, you were in the fourth grade.

S: It was about 1967, I think.

I: Uh huh. Uh huh. And, you were the last class, and what

grade was that?

S: I wasn't the last class w J ('.) my sisters and brothers

went to it too.

I: The very last uh huh.

S: Except for my three year old brother and sister (?) They



I: Uh huh. And then you all went to Leslie. Well, did you like









Cat 54 A page 3



Leslie better.

S: Leslie was a big change from where we had all went to

school and started--you know, everybody down there went

to a class except we all knew each other. And, Leslie was

really different. For awhile a lot of the children couldn't

adjust to it. I mean, they didn't like it and they would

go to school:and come back home and for awhile it was really

rough getting adjusted in a different school with new people.

And, it was rough on the students.

I: Did you feel the people worked(?) y'all different at first?

S: At first they did. They treated you different. I mean, like

you wouldn't get enough or something.

I: Uh huh.

S: Later, it grew out of it.

I: Do you think things are different now.

S: A lot of people are, but a lot of people still treat you like
you aren't any good,
your an old Indian and / or something like this,

you know. But, a lot of people don 't pay it any attention

no more.

I: Uh huh. Can you remember some of the. things that happened when

you did change over from Leslie--I mean, to Leslie?

S: It was a lot bigger school and you know, the teachers were all

different aid uh, they wasn't as strict on us,I mean they was
in our school
stricter on us then what we had been put through / on the
had
reservation. And, where we / been the bright students you

know a lot of the teachers because they'd

come around and help us as individuals if we didn't understand








CAT 54 A page 4



it. There wasn't big classrooms.. So, we didn't get the attention

that we had got on our school on the reservation.

I: You think that was, in part from the size of the classroom?

S: Mostly. Our classes on the reservation wasn't that large and

we had grades one and two in one big classroom and one teacher

taught that grade another teacher taught three and four. And,

she had time, you know, just to come around and help each one

of us individually so much a day. And out there why, they

had big classrooms and they didn't last. Like, all day we

sat in that one classroom. skip in tape

I: Were you used to eating lunch at school before you got there?

S: Yes mam.

I: Was that prepared like for you at the kitchen at Catawba?

S: Yes mam. A great-aunt of mine there, her husband and her

v\ ia .. 'TNA L / to fix it.

I: And, she fixed meals for those four grades.

S: Uh huh.

I: In those four grades. When you got to Leslie were you separated

from your other friends from the reservation?

S: Yes mam. We were all put in different classrooms, just like,

you know, like when you go out to a new school and your starting

a new grade, they put you in any classroom that ain't good

enough or something(?)?

I: Uhhuh.

S: Well, they just put us out--separated us all and whenever you saw

them, I guess you was glad to see them and you'd talk about everything,

you know, and we were kind of shy. I know I was shy at first. I









CAT 54 A page 5



wouldn't speak out. And, uh, I wouldn--If I didn't understand

something, I wouldn't ask. I'd go back to my

So, I guess that was one of my different things, the not being

able to speak up to a teacher in front of the class.

I: Do you think now, looking back, that it was a good thing to

do away with the school in Leslie--I mean do away with the

school at Catawba or not?
where
S: I think it was. Because, I can see / my little brother

he learned so much more now than what we learned when we were

down there. And, they just go out and meet people sooner than

we do and they just face the problem of meeting'other kids and

of associating and getting along with them and riding the

bus. We didn't ride the bus until we started out at Leslie.

And, they learn. They really learn so much more these days

out there instead of on the reservation where we didn't.

I: Uh, how about high school?

S: The old high school, whew. We learned so much more at high school

than I thought you know, than we did at any other school. And,

I can see where the school on the reservation wasn't up to

date like it should have been. Like, uh, a lot of things.

Like uhm in teaching, I guess, where it didn't have enough

teachers and all this. And, the equipment. All the

equipment wasn't up to date. And, high school, you can go

back and you can see where you should have done this and you should

have done that, but you did(t do it. So, it wasn't no good if

you didn't do it and you didn't get it with you now.










CAT 54 A page 6



I; You're thinking you might have more preparations then, if you'd

started in the grammar schools in town?

S: Yes mam. Because that prepared you so much more for the ninth or

tenth grade where we had to--we didn't have what the first graders

are covering now. Now, first graders are really getting it

where we missed it. And, I think that's one of the best things

for them. And, they're getting now where they're even starting

them in kindergarten now and they're starting them and they're

learning all this math where, you know, we learned it in the tenth.

High school is the first place I had ever heard of any of this

stuff. And, it was really hard at first to take it and try

to work it. It made you want to give up but, still, you had to

fight to learn.

I: Why didn't you give up?

S: Because my mother, she said, "I want you all to have everything I

didn't have a chance to have."

I: Did she think you could get this by education?

S: Yes mam, because, they went to a school on the reservation. Not

the same one. It burned down, but, they went through grades

one through eight. And, that's the only higher they could do

that. Because they weren't allowed to come to high school. And,

they weren't to come ride on the bus. It was a long time before

they could ride on the bus. And, she said she wanted us to take

advantage of everything we could learn now, so, we could have

a good job and everything when we grew up.

I: Has your high school experience been a good one?

S: Yes mam. It's been great. I couldn't have been more pleased and








CAT 54 A page 7



I'm really proud that we finally did get to come out to

high school and that--it's really great. I just can't

put into words how I really feel.

I: Do you feel here that, all races, nonmatter whether they're

Indian or black or white, are given equal treatment out here?

S: Yes mam, I think so, because nobody don't seem to look down

on the Indians. And, they treat them--well, I've been treated

nice all these years I've come to high school and junior high.

And, I've met a lot of people and I've made a lot of friends

adf I think a lot of my friends and they've always been nice

to me and I think that everybodies treated equal because the

teachers--most of the teachers look upon you just as another

student here to learn. Aid, not by your race and not by what

you're doing but by what you can do, if you want to.

I: Do you get to study about Indians in the history courses?

S: Most of the time we do and I think we still bring our viewpoint

to that there(?) you know, in about the Indians and it makes

me feel proud to be an Indian they're

really talking about it.

I: What about these last few years. Why do you think it's better so

far?

S: Uh I think because they put the school colors in with the

Garf(QA and black and that we had a lot of trouble

last year and it really upset me, I mean, you know, people

carrying on like that. And, I didn't think they should have

been doing it. They were coming here to learn not to see

what they could get (?). And, they was keeping others from

learning.










CAT 54 A page 8



I: Did you ever feel that the Indian was just sort of being left

out of things, or not?

S: Yes marr for awhile they--they we--I guess the Indians were just

so proud to be out and see what they could thank that they wasn't

trying (?) to see what else they .could get. They were getting

what they could and the education and by making friends and

meeting people and getting friendly and trying to get along

with them that I don't think they were being left out of

anything. They're really in it today.

I: What about when you were little, where did your daddy work?

S: My father worked at the Industrial mill until about 1960,

when he was disabled. He's got--what's -_-multiple

schlerosis. He's got multiple schlerosis. His brother has

the same thing and my mother, she's working now. She went

to work about 11 years ago out at the

She used to work in North Carolina, and she didn't

like the long drive so she came over to the _

She's a service girl and she likes it. She says the boss

man is real good to her and if there's anything he can do for
and
her, he'll say well, come to me /: talk to me about it before

you do so and so. And, if there's always anything she needs

she can go and ask him and she said that she's treated real

nice out there. I worked out there last summer and I was

treated nice. And she's been working there, about 11 years.

I: Is your dad bed ridden, or








CAT 54 A page 9



S: No mam, he's not bed ridden, he's just does not get around too good

and whenever he don't well, he uses a walking stick.

I: Uh huh, he has to have a walking stick. How many other brothers

and sisters are there in your family.

S: I've got nine brothers and s--I've got eight at home, but I've

got nine altogether. I've got one sister moved.

I: They're really That's a
but, uh
big family for a mother to have to take care of./ is your dad

home with you a lot?

S: Yes mam, my father's at home all of the time in the evenings.

My mother works the second(?) so, he's at home from--you know,

we get home from school, he's there. He doesn't go anywhere

so, he's there with us until 12 or 1 whatever time she gets in

at night. So, we're not by ourselves and my brother, he works

at the so, he leaves about

10 and I've got one brother in the service.

I: You have a large family. What do you think about large families?

S: I think they're great, but, whenever I get married, I don't

want to have a large family because today it costs so much

more to raise them and to give them everything you want them

to have but w s so close i&). I don't know. Like Becky,

she moved away a couple of years ago and every chance she gets

she comes home. She's got two kids of hers and she'll come

home every chance she gets, but, we're so close.

I: You have a real close family then.

S: Yes mam. And, most all the time somethings going on at my house.









CAT 54 A page 10



I: What about _today. You hear so many

people say that

What about abortion? Do you think about that? Have you talked

about that?

S: Yes mam. I don't believe in abortion. I thihk if a girl gets

pregnant and she's married, or whether she's not married, she

should go ahead and have that child. And, if she felt like

she should give it up where it could find a proper home, she

should go ahead and have it, but, I ain't gonna have a



I: Alright. Do the Indians give their children up very easily?

S: No mam. They don--they'll keep them and uh, I think that

even if they are illegitimate, that the Indians, most of them

that I've know has had one like that, well, she'll keep it.

And, you know, if she gets married, well then they'll adopt

it.

I: What about bringing up families?

S: W uh, that's--uh, they should be taken to church and taught

what's right and wrong and learn how to cope with their problems

and stand on their own two feet, so if anything happened and

they had to, well then, they would be prepared for that and

that where that, where they could meet other people, you know,

on their terms ard if they had to give in, well, they could.

But, not where a child is given everything. I don't think

that's right, because then, they'll always want everything

that you can get. And every day, it ain't gonna be like that

all her life, because there's gonna be something she'll want









CAT 54 A page 11



that she can't have and that'll cause her a lot of hurt.

I: Do you think that your parents were too strict with you, or

not strict enoughZ.

S: I think my father's too strict. But, my mother, she'll meet

us half way. She'll say, "You come and talk to me and we'll

see what we can do about it." and, "I want you all to be

j, -Lf for me and then I'll be- 4iJ for y'all."

But, my father, I think it's because his mother was strict

on him. He's really strict on us and mama will say, "

you all can come and get your so and so, and

you all can take- and you all can 4o so and so, If you're

daddy don't care." But, figuring her and daddy will have

to go and talk it over and see what they think.

I: Your daddy has the final word.

S: Yes mam.

I: Okay. Uh, what are some things that you are looking forward

to in the future?

S: Uh, you know, well, after I finish high school, I hope to find

me a good job and I hope to start putting my money in the bank

and later on, get me a good car and have a kind of nice boy that I

might want to marry and that he'll be good to me. I'll be ready

to settle down about then. I have a few things to help mama

with first before I can really think about moving out and leaving

her with the r st of the kids because one day, she might

get sick and not be able to work.

I: Are you e.r the oldes now?

S: I'm the oldest girl at home. I've got three brothers older.








CAT 54 A page 12



I; What kind of work do you want to do when you get out of high

school?

S: I'd like to be a secretary or a filing clerk or a receptionist.

I: Are you taking business courses?

S: Yes mam. I'm taking shorthand and office practice and typing

and bookkeeping.

I: Are you planning to find something herein Rock Hill?

S: I hope to. If I don't I'll go to Charlottte and look.

But, still, it would be close enough where I could come and

go back home.

I: So, you will be close to home?

S: Yes mam.

I: brothers and sisters.

S: Yes mam.

I: Uh, how about church work?

S: The church, it's kind of special. And, uh, there's a lot to do

in the church. There's a lot to occupy your time and uh, geneology,

I've got to start on mine and mama's gonna start on hers, so,

one day we're gonna set down, we're gonna start on (?)

our geneology. And, we still help them and the

MIA and there's plenty of ways to help in the church; cleaning

the church and getting it ready for the Sunday meeting, And

then, maybe some of the people of the church are sick, or

maybe their children are, their little babies and you could

go around and help them. There's so many things you could do

in the church work. Aj4 the church can keep the activities

out for the young people so that maybe they won't go out

and get into trouble on a Saturday night or








CAT 54 A page 13



I: You enjoying the activities?

S: Yes mam.

I: Uhm, what about Catawba Indians now? What's the future for the

Catawbas?

S: The Catawba Indians, well, they have a good future ahead of them

if they take advantage of everything that is offered to them and

if they can see where it will help in the future, prepare for the

future then they have it made. All these little children that's

starting into kindergarten and first grade out in the schools like

where we didn't They're really gonna have a better teacher than

we're thinking of and they'll be ready to cope with the people

and tne people's accepting tne Inaians now, more than they

ever have and they'll hire tnem. They'll find out that the

Indians are good workers. They're people that they can trust

and they'll hire them and they'll have their opportunities

with those people.

I: You near a lot of talk about women's lib even here in school.

What stand do you have on this?

S: Well, i think that a women should work and support herself until

she's ready to get married. And then, if her boyfriend or her

fiance thinks that she should stay home, take care of the

house and and the girl

thinks, well, she'd like doing that, then she won't be unhappy

staying at home all day while he's out working. Well then, I

think maybe they should, but then there's a lot of girls that

like their work instead of housework. But, with me, I think

I'll a little bit more and then I'll settle down.

I: You still think a woman's place is in the home?








CT 54 A page 14



S: I think I want to.

I: What about the future of the Catawba ?

S: iv CtJi ladi -- Uh, it's going--it's going away, I think.

You are talking about the old customs, like the pottery making?

I: Uh huh.

S: Well, many people aren't learning much of the Indian trade of

our ancestors, pottery making and stuff like that. They just--

I don't know whether they're really just not interested or the

people aren't taking the time to learn. But, they're not

learning it. I know my mother says she can make it and she

would have to go out and get the clay, but then she has her

job, and she can't stay home and make pottery all day.

I: Uh huh.

S: So, we don't learn because while she's working during the

summer we're cleaning house or watching the children and uh,

my grandmother, she she can learn--she makes it and she can

learn us. But we just don't have the time. We're all the

time got something else to do. It just seems like that there's
all the time
/ something else to do besides learning to make pottery or

some of the other crafts that we do.

I: What would make it easier for you to learn these sort of things.

S: For them to have classes like, -say maybe, Saturday afternoon.

They could say a set time at a set place for everyone that wanted

to learn and was interested for them to come down and they would

show them some of the And that would really see

how many people was really- interested in their pottery making

and we'd know where we stood with that.









CAT 54 A page 15



I: What do you think the Catawbas will be like in the next

twenty or thirty years?

S: They'll jsft be like, just anybody else on this land. They

won't be noticed as Indians or pointed out or separated.

They'll be mingled right in with everyone else.

I: Would you like to see the tribe go back to being a stronger

tribe where people get together or continue like this?

S: I'd like to see the people get back together and learn

their crafts and the-. old language of the Catawba Indians.

This'il be a little bit interesting, I think. But then,

not for them to stop but to keep going with the future

too.

I: Maxine what do you think about people

taking drugs?

S: Uh, I'm not really sure because I'm not_ by that

contact with them. I mean, you know, if someone come up and

ask me to take but it costs

a lot of damage to their body and to their minds(?) and I

don't see why they do this. I mean they might get their

kicks out of it but later on they're paying for everything

they're doing and uh, I don't see what they really get, you

know, out of this. I guess they think if they're taking

drugs then they'll be in certain group of people that they

want to be with. But, I think that the if the people don't

accept you like you are and for what you are, then, they're

not going to accept you any way- at all.

I: Do you think the Indian students take drugs?









-54 A page 16



S: No mam, not that I know of. None of them--they've been in

contact with them, plenty of them have. I know because

I've heard them talk about there went so and so and they

were offered drugs, but they say that--they say, that's

not for me, you know. Anyway, I don't think none of

the Indian people really will take drugs.

I: I know that you are in the government class. Why are you

interested in the study of the United States government?

S: Because I think I don't know all there is to know about

our government and how it was based at and what's it like

and I want to find out all I can about the government and

how the people could make it better and how they are

united and was united. And, what all good the nation is for

and what bad it has been through to get this good.

I: Do you know anything about the Catawba government?

S: No, hot right offhand I don't.

I: Did you know any of the chiefs? Did you ever know any?

S: I knew, uh, chief Blue. He was the last one and uh, I think

that everybody really respected him with great honor and

everything, you know, as a chief. I think that he was the

last one to speak the language and we haven't had a chief

since then and everyone, just whenever they hear a Mr.

Sanley's (?) or something like that they'll stick a chief

in front of it because I know they stuck a chief in front

of my father's name, my grandfather's name and all like
really
that. But, there was only--theonly chief I can/remember

was chief Blue. And, I remember where--I know where he









CAT 54 A page 17



lives and I remember how we used to go out and talk to him

all the time.

I: Did he like children?

S: Oh, yes mam. He was fine with children.

I: Did he like for you to come by and see him?

S: Yes mam. He was all the time out in the yard and you 'd

go down the road, you couldn't help but stop and talk.

I: What are some of the things you talked about?

S: Uh, well, we would talk about school and you know, about all

these other things and somehow he'd jyst listen. And, he'd

ask us how we were doing in school and he'd say, "Well one day,

y'all gonna and y'all will really be more out

than they were out." And, he said for us to take advantage of

everything that we could.

I: You think he talked to most of the children down there like that?

S: Yes mam, I think so. He had a big family too. I forget how

many children were in it, but it was a large family.





Full Text

PAGE 1

CAT 54 A DMC Interviewer: Whitesell Subject: Maxine Brown Date: September 19, 1972 I: This is an interview with Riva(?) Maxine Brown, September 19, 1972. This interview takes place in a classroom at Rock Hill High School. be'longing to(?) Mrs. Whitesell. This is Mrs. Whitesell doing 'the interview. Maxine, I'd like for you to tell us who you are. S: I'm Maxine Brown and I'm a Catawba Indian of Rock Hill, South Carolina. I: Alright, how old are you Maxine? S: I'll be twenty next month. I: You will be twenty. S: Uh huh. I: Alright. Were you born in Rock Hill. S: Yes mam, I was born at St. Phillips Hospital. I: Here in Rock Hill. S: Yes mam. I: Did you live in Rock Hill. S: Yes mam. We always lived in Rock Hill. My grandparents lived in Rock Hill. I: Alright, it's been several generations then since your people lived on the reservation. S: Yes mam,:it has. I: Did you go to school in Rock Hill? S: Yes mam. In grades one through four, I went to school on the

PAGE 2

CAT 54 A page 2 reservation. We had two teachers and we had two classrooms and a auditorium and a kitchen and two restrooms. I: So, you'd go back to go to Catawba to go to school, even though you lived in town? . S: We lived on the reservation. I: And, you went to the reservation •. S: Uh huh. I: Alright, and those were grades one through four? S: Yes mam.. your I: Do you remember / teachers? S: Yes mam. They were Mrs. Cornish of Rock Hill and Mrs. Robinson. Mrs. Robinson later got us started at Leslie grades, 5 thru 7, I think it was. Elementary in I: Were you at the reservation then when the school was done away with? S: Yes mam. I: Oh, you were one of the last students there? S: Yes mam. I: Do yoa remember the year? Well, you were in the fourth grade. S: It was about 1967, I think. I: Uh huh. Uh huh. And, you were the last class, and what grade was that? S: I wasn't the last class "'IwA5(:,) my sisters and brothers went to it too. I: The very last uh huh. S: Except for my three year old brother and sister(?) They I: Uh huh. And then you all went to Leslie. Well, did you like

PAGE 3

Cat 54 A page 3 Leslie better. S: Leslie was a big change from where we had all went to school and started--you know, everybody down there went to a class except we all knew each other. And, Leslie was really different. For awhile a lot of the children couldn't adjust to it. I mean, they didn't like it and they would go to school: and come back home and for awhile it was really rough getting adjusted in a different school with new people. And, it was rough on the students. I: Did you feel the people worked(?) y'all different at first? S: At first they did. They treated you different. I mean, like you wouldn't get enough or something. I: Uh huh. S: Later, it grew out of it. I: Do you think things are different now. S: A lot of people are, but a lot of people still treat you iike you aren't any good, your an old Indian and __ _,_ ___ or something like this, you know. But, a lot of people don't pay it any attention no more. I: Uh huh. Can you remember some of thet. things that happened when you did change over from Leslie--! mean, to Leslie? S: It was a lot -bigger school and , you know, the teachers were all different arld uh, they wasn't as strict on us,l mean they was in our school stricteron.us then what we had been put through / on the had reservation. And, where we/ been the bright students~)you know a lot of the teachers ____________ because they'd come around and help us as individuals if we didn't understand

PAGE 4

CAT 54 A page 4 it. There wasn't big classrooms So, we didn't get the attention that we had got on our school on the reservation. I: You think that was, in part from the size of the classroom? S: Mostly. Our classes on the reservation wasn't that large and we had grades one and two in one big classroom and one teacher taught that grade another teacher taught three and four. And, she had time, you know, just to come around and help each one of us individually so much a day. And out there why, they had big classrooms and they didn't last. Like, all day we sat in that one classroom. ___ s_k_i~p_i_n_t~a_p~e _________ _ I: Were you used to eating lunch at school before you got therei S: Yes mam. I: Was that prepared like for you at the kitchen at Catawba? S: Yes mam. A great-aunt of mine there, her husband and her \-v~\ ,'-' tl ---\: 1 "-/\..,; '1,9'•~~~(' I to fix it. ' I: And, she fixed meals for those four grades. S: Uh huh. I: In those four grades. When you got to Leslie were you separated from your other friends from the reservation? S: Yes mam. We were ali put in different.classrooms, just like, you know, like when you go out to a new school and your starting a new gtade, they put you in any classroom that ain't _g_o_o_d __ _ enough or something(?)? I: lJhhuh. S: Well, they just put us out--separated us all and whenever you saw them, I g~ess you was glad to see them and you'd talk about everything, you know, and we were kind of shy. I know I was shy at first. I

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CAT 54 A page 5 wouldn't speak out. And, uh, I wouldn--If I didn't understand something, I wouldn't ask. I'd go back to my --------So, I guess that was one of my different things, the not being able to speak up to a teacher in front of the class. I: Do you think now, looking back, that it was a good thing to do away with the school in Leslie--I mean do away with the school at Catawba or not? where S: I think it was. Because, I can see / my little brother he learned so much more now than what we learned when we were down there. And, they just go out and meet people sooner than we do and they just face the problem of meeting-other kids and of associating and getting along with them and riding the bus. We didn't ride the bus until we started out at Leslie. And, they learn. They really learn so much more these days out there instead of on the reservation where we didn't. I: Uh, how about high school? S: The old high school, whew. We learned so much more at high school tthan I thougnf; you know, than we did at any other school. And, I can see where the school on the reservation wasn't up to date like it should have been. Like, uh, a lot of things. Like uhm in teaching, I guess, where it didn't have enough teachers and all this. And, the equipment. All the equipment wasn't up to date. And, high school, you can go back and you can see where you should have done this and you should have done that, but you dic:M t do it. So, it wasn't no good if you didn't do it and you didn't get it with you how.

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CAT 54 A page 6 I; You're thinking you might have more preparations then, if you'd started in the grannnar schools in town? S: Yes mam. Because that prepared you so much more for the ninth or tenth grade where we had to--we didn't have what tlhe first graders are covering now. Now, first graders are really getting it where we missed it. And, I think that's one of the best things for them. And, they're getting now where they're even starting them in kindergarten now and they're starting them and they're learning all this math where, you know, we learned it in the tenth. High school is the first place I had ever heard of any of this stuff. An~, it was really hard at first to take it and try to work it. It made you want to give up but, still, you had to fight to learn. I: Why didn't you give up? S: Because my mother, she said, "I want you all to have everything I didn't have a chance to have." I: Did she think you could get this by education? S: Yes mam, because, they went to a school on the reservation. Not the same one. It burned down, but, they went through grades one through eight. And, that's the only higher they could do that. Because they weren't allowed to come to high school. And, they weren't to come ride on the bus. It was a long time before they could ride on the bus. And, she said she wanted us to take advantage of everything we could learn now, so, we could have a good job and everything when we grew up. I: Has your high school experience been a good one? S: Yes mam. It's been great. I couldn't have been more pleased and

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CAT 54 A page 7 I'm really proud that we finally did get to come out to high school and that--it's really great. I just can't put into words how I really feel. I: Do you feel here that, all races, no ~atter whether they're Indian or black or white, are given equal treatment out here? S: Yes mam, I think so, because nobody don't seem to look down on the Indians. And, they treat them--well, I've been treated nice all these years I've come to high school and junior high. And, I've met a lot of people and I've made a lot of friends agh I think a lot of my friends and they've always been nice to me and I think that everybodies treated equal because the teachers--most of the teachers look upon you just as another student here to learn. And, not by your race and not by what you're doing but by what you can do, if you want to •. I: Do you get to study about Indians in the history courses? S: Most of the time we do and I think we still bring our viewpoint to that there(?) you know, in about the Indians and it makes me feel proud to be an Indian ___________ they're really talking about it. I: What about these last few years. Why do you think it's better so far? S: , Uh, I think because they put the school colors in with the _G_~~r~~~e~ ____ artd black and that we had a lot of trouble last year and it really upset me, I mean, you know, people carrying on like that. And, I diidn't think they should have been doing it. They were coming here to learn not to see what they could get (?). And, they was keeping others from learning.

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CAT 54 A page 8 I: Did you ever feel that the Indian was just sort of being left out of things, or not? S: Yes mart\, for awhile they--they we--I guess the Indians were just so proud to be out and see what they could thank that they wasn't trying (?) to see what else they . ceuld get. They were getting what they could and the education and by making friends and meeting people and getting friendly and trying to get along with them that I don't think they were being left out of anything. They're really in it today. I: What about when you were little, where did your daddy work? S: My father worked at the Industrial mill until about 1960, when he was disabled. He's got--what's --multiple -----schlerosis. He's got multiple schlerosis. His brother has the same thing and my mother, she's working now. She went to work about 11 years ago out at the -----------------She used to work in North Carolina, and she didn't like the long drive so she came over to the -------------She's a service girl and she likes it. She says the boss man is real good to her and if there's anything he can do for and her, he' 11 say well, come to me /: talk to me about it before you do so and so. And, if ther~'s always anything she needs she can ~o and ask him and she said that she's treated real nice out there. I worked out there last summer and I was treated nice. And she's been working there, about 11 years. I: Is your dad bed ridden, or

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CAT 54 A page 9 S: No mam, he's not bed ridden, he's just does not get around too good and whenever he don't, well, he uses a walking stick. I: Uh huh, he has to have a walking stick. How many other brothers and sisters are there in your family. S: I've got nine brothers and s--I've got eight at home, but I've got nine altogether. I've got one sister moved. I: They're really-----------------• That's a but, uh big family for a mother to have to take care of./ 1s your dad home with you a lot7 S: Yes mam, my father's at home all of the time in the evenings. My mother works the second(?) so, he's at home from--you know, we get home from school, he's there. He doesn't go anywhere so, he's there with us until 12 or 1 whatever time she gets in at night. So, we're not by ourselves and my brother, he works at the __________________ so, he leaves about 10 and I've got one brother in the service. I: You have a large family. What do you think about large families? S: I think they're great, but, whenever I get married, I don 1 t want to have a large family because today it costs so much more to to have raise them and to give them everything you want them but s so close( (J) . I don't know. Like Becky, she moved away a couple of years ago and every chance she gets she comes home. She's got two kids of hers and she'll come home every chance she gets, but, we're so close. I: You have a real close family then. S: Yes mam. And, most all the time somethings going on at my house.

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CAT 54 A page 10 I: Hi~ -thi~'S w'ith +he.-P'cu,,i\l e.s . , What about ___________ today. You hear so many people say that-------------------------• What about abortion? Do you think about that? Have you talked about that? S: Yes-mam. I don't believe in abortion. I think if a girl gets pregnant and she's married, or whether she's not married, she should go ahead and have that child. And, if she felt like she should give it up where it could find a proper home, she should go ahead and have it, but, I ain't gonna have a I: Alright. Do the Indians give their children up very easily? S: No mam. They don--they'll keep them and uh, I think that even if they are ill~gitimate, that the Indians, most of them that I've know has had one like that, well, she'll keep it. And, you know, if she gets married, well then they'll adopt it. I: S: What about bringing up families? ~, uh, that's--uh, they should be taken to church and taught what's right and wrong and learn how to cope with their problems and stand on their own two feet, so if anything happened and they had to, well then, they would be prepared for that and that where that, where they could meet other people, you know, on their terms arld if they had to give in, well, they could. But, not where a child is given everything. I don't think that's right, because then, they'll always want everything that you can get. And every day, it ain't gonna-be like that all her life, because there's gonna be something she'll want

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CAT 54 A page 11 that she can't have and that'll cause her a lot of hurt. I: Do you think that your parents were too strict with you, or not strict enoughl. S: I think my father's too strict. But, my mother, she'll meet us half way. She'll say, "You come and talk to me and we'll see what we can do about it. 11 and, "I want you all to be for me and then I '11 l,,ec}O +h ,...s for y'all. " But, my father, I think it's because his mother was strict on him. He's really strict on us and mama will say, " you all can come and get your -----so and so, and you all can takeand you all can qo so and so, If you're daddy don't care." But, figuring her and daddy will have to go and talk it over and see what they think. I: Your daddy has the final word. S: Yes mam. +h
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CAT 54 A page 12 I; What kind of work do you want to do when you get out of high school? S: I'd like to be a secretary or a filing clerk or a receptionist. I: Are you taking business courses? S: Yes mam. I'm taking shorthand and office practice and typing and bookkeefJing. I: Are you planning to find something here~in Rock Hill? S: I hope to . . If I don't I'll go to Charlottte and look. But, still, it would be close enough where I could come and go back home. I: So, you will be close to home? S: Yes mam. I: -------------'---------brothers and sisters. S: Yes mam. I: Uh, how about church work? S: The church, it's kind of special. And, uh, there's a lot to do in the church. There's a lot to occupy your time and uh, genealogy, I've got to start on mine and mama's gonna sta~t on hers, so, one day we're gonna set down, we're gonna start on(?) our genealogy. And, we still help them ______ and the MIA and there's plenty of ways to help in the church; cleaning the church and getting it ready for the Sunday meeting, And then, maybe some of the people of the church are sick, or maybe their children are, their little babies and you could go around and help them. There's so many things you could do in the church work. A_g.fi the church can keep the activities out for the young people so that maybe they won't go out and get into trouble on a Saturday night or ----------

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CAT 54 A I: You enjoying the activities? S: Yes mam. page 13 I: Uhm, what about Catawba Indians now? What's the future for the Catawbas? S: The Catawba Indians, well, they have a good future ahead of them if they take advantage of everything that is offered to them and if they can see where it will help in the future, prepare for the future then they have it made. All these little children that's starting into kindergarten and first grade out in the schools like where we didn't. They're really , gonna have a better teacher than we' re thinl5,ing of and they' l.l be ready to cope with the people and tne people's accepting tne Inaians now, more than they ever have and they'll hire tnem. They'll find out that the Indians are good workers. They're people that they can trust and they'1.l hire them " and they'll have their opportunities with those people. I: You near a lot of tal.k about women's lib, even here in school. What stand do you have on this? S: Well, 1 think that a women should work and support hersel.f until she's ready to get married. Ana then, if her boyfriend or her fiance chinks that she snould stay home, take care of the house and ___________________ , and the girl thinks, well, she'd like doing that, then she won't be unhappy staying at home all day while he's out working. Well then, l. think maybe they should, but then there's a lot of girls that like their work instead of housework. But, with me, I tnink I'll a little bit more and then I'll settle down. ----I: You still think a woman's place is in the home?

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page 14 S: I think I want to. I: What about , t:he future of the Catawba ? ---------Uh, it's going--it's going away, I think. You are talking about the old customs, like the pottery making? I: Uh huh. S: Weli, many people aren't learning much of the Indian trade of , our ancest:ors, pottery making and stuff like that. They ~ustI don't know whether they're really just not interested or the people aren't taking the time to learn. But, they're not learning it. I know my mother says she can make it and she would have to go out and get the clay, but then she has her job, and she can't stay home and make pottery all day. I: Uh huh, S: So, we don't learn because while she's working during the sunnner we're cleaning house or watching the children and uh, my grandmother, she she can learn--she makes it and she can learn us. But we just don't have the time. we're all the time got something else to do. It just seems like that there• s all the time I . _ something else to do besides learning to make pottery or some of the other crafts that we do. I: What would make it easier for you to learn these sort of things. S: For them to have classes like, _ say maybe , Saturday afternoon. They could say a set time at a set place for everyone that wanted to learn and was interested for them to come down and they would show them some of the And that would really see how many people was reallyinterested in their pottery making and we'd know where we stood with that.

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CAT 54 A page 15 I: what do you think the Catawbas will be like in the next twenty or thirty years? S: Theytl.L j4't be like, just anybody else on this land. They won't be noticed as Indians or pointed out or separated. They'll be mingled right in with everyone else. I: Would you like to see the tribe go back to being a stronger tribe where people get together or continue like this1 S: I'd like to see the people get back together and learn their crafts and the _: _ old language of the Catawba Indians. This'll be a little bit interesting, I think. But then, not for them to stop but to keep goi~g with the future too. I: Maxine what do you think about people --------taking drugs? S: Uh, I'm not really sure because I'm not . by that ---contact with them. I mean, you know, if someone come up and ask me to take , but it costs a lot of damage to their body and to their minds(?) and I don't see why they do this. I mean they might get their kicks out of it but later on they're paying for everything they're doing and uh, I don't see what they really get, you know, out of this. I guess they think if they're taking drugs then they'll be in certain group of people that they want to be with. But, I think that the if the people don't accept you like you are and for what you are, then, they"'re not going to accept you any wayat all. I: Do you think the , Indian students take drugs?

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page 16 S: No mam, not that I know of. None of them--they've been in contact with them, plenty of them have. I know because I've heard them talk about there went so and so and they were offered drugs, but they say that--they say, that's not for me, you know. Anyw?Y', I don't think none of the Indian people really will take drugs. I: I know that you are in the government class. Why are.you interested in the study of the United States government? S: Because I think I don't know all there is to know about our government and how it was based at and what's it like and I want to find out all I can about the government and how the people could make it better and haw they are united and was united. And, what all good the nation is for and what bad it has been through to get this good. I: Do you know anything about the Catawba government? S: No, hot right off hand I don't. I: Did you know any of the chiefs? Did you ever know any? S: I knew, uh, chief Blue. He was the last one and uh, I think that everyb,ody really respected him with great honor and everything, you know, as a chief. I think that he was the last one to speak the language and we haven't had a chief since then and everyone, just whenever they hear a Mr. Sanley's (?) or something like that they'll stick a chief in front of it because I know they stuck a chief in front of my father's name, my grandfather's name and all like really that. But, there was only--the,;only chief I can/remember was chief Blue. And, I remember where--! know where he

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CAT 54 A page 17 lives and I remember how we used to go out and talk to him all the time. I: Did he like children? S: Oh, yes mam. He was fine with childreu. I: Did he like for you to come by and see hi~? S: Yes mam. He , was all the time out in the yard and you 'd go down the road, you couldn't help but stop and talk. I: What are some of the things you talked about? S: Uh, well, we would talk about school and you know, about all these other things and somehow he'd jyst listen. And, he'd ask us how we were doing in school and he'd say, "Well one day, y'all gonna ______ , and y'all will really be more out than they were out." And, he said for us to take advantage of everything that _ we could. I: You think he talked to most of the children down there like that? S: Yes mam, I think so. He had a big family too. I forget ,. how many children were in it, but it was a large family.