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Interview with Sherry Wade Osborne September 21 1972

Material Information

Title:
Interview with Sherry Wade Osborne September 21 1972
Creator:
Osborne, Sherry ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:
Language:
English

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Catawba Indians -- Florida
Kataba Indians -- Florida
Catawba Oral History Collection ( local )

Notes

Funding:
This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

Record Information

Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'Catawba' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management:
Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/.

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CAT 53A

SUBJECT: Sherry Wade Osborne f
INTERVIEWER: Edy Whitesell
DATE: September 21, 1972 --
TAPE: One
SIDE: One

PAGE: One






I: This is an interview with Sherry Wade Osborne, September 21, 1972,

at the Osborne residence, Route 6, Rockhill, South Carolina. Edy

Whitesell doing the interview. Sherry would you begin by telling us

something about yourself?

S: Well, I was born Sherry Jeraldine Wade. I was born on December

8, 1942, at St. Philip's Hospital, in Rockhill. I was quite a

disappointment to my parents however, because they wanted a little

boy first, and I came out to be a little girl. And as it happened,

in the hospital, I was the only little girl baby born on that day.

There were a bunch of little, little, little boys. And the doctor

asked mom, mom and daddy if they wanted to trade me for one of those

boys, and they said no, they'd keep me. So... I was one of those 1942

"war babies" and as my daddy had to go to war, so I didn't see him

for awhile. I think I was about a year old when he left, and I

didn't know him^I remember when he came back that I wouldn't look

at him. I didn't consider him being my daddy at all. All I had was

a momma. And he would just try to make up to me, and I just wouldn't

do it for a long time. And I had another brother while my daddy was

gone and came home, and then before he got out of service I had a











CAT 53 A



S: o..a brother, his name was Gary, named him Gary Junior. And he, he

comes, when daddy came in, he said, "Daddy! Daddy." He was com-

pletely different than I was. And then, well I had another brother,

he was Michael, Michael Greg. And I'll say right now, that's where

I got my first baby's name from, was Greg. Michael Greg was his

name. And I didn't, I turned out to be the only little girl in the

family, and sometimes I liked it, and sometimes I didn't. And even

now I wonder what it would have been like to have a sister, as I

was growing up. I remember that as a child I did get along good

with people. I tried to get along good with people. I never got

into any fusses or anything. And I went to, the first'time I went

to school my first teacher was a Mrs. Grace. I went to the yellow

Indian school down there, and I cried, and I cried, and I had to go

home. But I got over that because my teacher was a real good

teacher and I enjoyed it after awhile. And then we came up to the

new school, the new Indian school up here, and it was the same

thing. It was just like leaving home again. But we got used to

Mrs. Foreman and Mrs. Robinson, and we enjoyed being here, as pupils

in the school. And so when I was growing up I loved to read. And

reading was my best subject until I got into grammar school,and English

turned out to be the best subject I had. And I remember when I went

to highschool, I made 100 on my English exam, and it thrilled me to

death. And it seemed so hard for everybody else, and it just came.

so easy for me. And my brothers, they, they could not do it.



2











CAT 53A


S: In fact they had no reading, no math, no English whatsoever. They

didn't do too well in anything except sports. They enjoyed that.

But when I was growing up things were a little bit different than

they are now for my children. When we went to school, we went with

all Indian children. And all of them were my cousins. Half of us

are so mixed up and so close together we don't realize it until

somebody dies, and then we get to see how close we really are.

And everybody was the same, you lived right next to them, and you

knew just everybody's business, we knew. And now, well even when I

went to Lesslie School, that was the first white school that I went

to. People accepted as Indians. They weren't mean to us or anything.,

They treated us good, at least the group that I went in they did.

And I knew boys going to school out there, and when I went to high

school we did have a little bit of a problem, right after we first

started because these kids would get in the corner. We'd all stick

together, the Indians would all stick together. And we got there,

and we'd walk around, and these boys would holler, "Woo woo woo

woo woo' you know, and oh, it would make me so mad because I didn't

mind being an Indian. I don't mind it now, in fact I'm proud of it.

But nothing makes me any madder, or can get me riled up more, as the

fact that somebody seems to be showing off, you know, or thinks

they're better. And so this one day, this boy, this one boy did it

every day, every day, and so it was just a bunch of us girls. Well

one day he did it, and we just backed him up. We just backed him up

in a corner, we had our books in our hand, and we just went right

at him. And to this day, that boy has been one of our best friends.

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CAT 53A



S: Because I guess he just was seeing what he could get away-with, and

he found out afterwards that we were really human too. And he never

did it anymore. He was just as good to us as he could be. So he...

I: You think he was just trying to get some reaction of some sort from

you?

S: Well I think really, at the time,7he was just trying to be ugly.

And then he found outifter awhile he did get a reaction, and he

found out that we weren't ashamed to be Indians. And, but we didn't

want to be downgraded or ridiculed right in front of people because

'we were. _.

I: Did they ask you any questions about where you lived,or if you lived,

in a teepee?

S: Well now I used to be asked that. a lot, now I don't anymore, but I

used to get, be asked thatia lot. Because when I went to school if

they would put me down as something else, I told them I was an Indian.

And the children would all look around the room, and they'd say,

"Well, do youall live in a tent?" you know, "Have youall got a teepee

or a totem pole?" All this stuff. And I, so sometimes those

questions got so ridiculous I just told them yes, you know. Let them

believe it, or they didn't have to, it didn't matter, But we don't

get that question anymore. Now if my children do, I don't know any-

thing about it. Now on their records at school I put them down as

Indians. And I don't think that they have, there's no discrimination

at all made between them.




4











CAT 53A



I: You might be interested to know the indiscretion in my class last

year. Black students were asking one of my Indian students

some questions. And they were curious, and they wanted to know

about the teepees, and about religion, you know they really

')ir- cJu -+ iC e And it's interesting to see

that we don't have this exchange of cultures right here in Rockhill

Ilto-w.tLL yo. L1luk we" '*

S:- It's, things have changed so much since we were, we were growing

up. Like I say, we stuck together,-ye"-.ka. r, and we still do. But

there're so many friends.now outside the church, and the Indians

themselves, that people are really nice, you know. To me, now, they

are. Eve, I guess you've found some people who are going to be

ugly any, anytime. But most people I think, on the whole, accept

Indians as such, and don't regard them as something dirty or ugly

or something like that.

I: What did you do as a child after you got home from school?

S: The first thing we did when we got in off the bus, we got to ride

the bus, which some people didn't get to do, but we did we got to

ride the bus. And the first thing we did was run in, "Where's

momma?" You know, that's the first question we asked, and then,

"What's for supper?" Of course she always had supper ready when

we got in off the bus. And so that's what we did. And then we had

to, we lived in a house that you could actually lay down at night




5













CAT 53A



S: ...and look through a crack, and you could see the sun, I mean

the moon, or North Star, or something like that. And when it

would rain you'd have to, we had little pots sitting all over

the bedroom and place you know. And when we got home we had to

carry wood, my daddy would go down in the woods and cut the wood

down, and we'd have to carry it up. And then he'd cut it up, and

we'd have to take it and stack it on the porch or in the house.

And we had to carry the water, we had to carry it about a mile

in our tin buckets and cups. And uh, oh, let's see, what else did

we have to do? That was just part of it, oh yeah, we had cows,

always, when we were little, and chickens, and we had to feed the

chickens, and we had to milk the cows. And we had to do that in

the morning too, when we got up, before we went to school. And

we had to do all that. And, and I en...at the time I didn't enjoy

it, sometimes I did, but most of the time I didn't. But thinking

on it now, I'm sure that that's why so many kids get in trouble

today, because they don't have anything to do. You know, it's

just kind of a contrast in the situation between what they do

and what we had to do. We had to do it. And uh, when momma washed

we had to carry about three tubfulls of water, and they were those

gre t big tin tubs, and carrying just the gallon buckets, you know,

we- they were bigger than gallons, I'm not sure how big they were.

But anyway we had to carry them for about a mile. And it took us

about ten trips back and forth, and we were really tired.


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CAT 53A



I: You got, did you get the water from a well _?

S: No, we got it from a spring. We called it "The Graveyard Spring."

That's where the old cemetery is, down there, and it's down under-

neath there. And it's down a hill, and we had to walk back up the

hill, and we were so tired by the time got back to the hill, and

then we had to go all the way home. And it, it was, it was hard.

I: Did that spring supply all those people in that area?

S: Well, there's springs all down in here. And so uh, there was, I

think, there was one,. two, three, about four families getting

water from that one spring. Of course anybody could go in and

get it, but we were the ones that mainly relied on that one. And

uh, in the mornings, we had to get up and uh, make a fire. And

my, me and my brothers took turns getting up. Momma didn't, couldn't

make fires too well, and so:we had to get up and make them, and

we'd get up about five o'clock and make the fire, and go back to

bed. And then when it's time to get up it, why it would be warm

in the livingroom. And we'd all run in there with our clothes and

put them on, and then get dressed, and then momma would be in the

kitchen what was freezing cold, cooking. And then we'd eat in there,

and by the time that breakfast was ready well it would be a little

warmed up in the kitchen.

I: Did your mother stay home all the time?

S: Yes. She never worked, but just awhile. Let's see, it was when

I was in college, I think she worked for about a...well not even

a year she worked. But she never worked, outside of when my daddy



7










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S: ...worked at the Arvin Mill for a long time, and uh, he had an

opportunity to become a, a boss, a boss man up there. And having

never done any work like that, being responsible for anybody, it

kind of, he was kind of afraid. And so he just didn't take it.

And now after awhile he went to the bleacher to work. And

he's still there. He's been there, oh, I don't even know how many

years he's been at the bleacher now. But he also makes cabinets.

He works at a cabinet factory everyday for eight hours. And then

he works at the bleacher at night for eight hours.

1: And this is your dad, he still does?

S: Yes, he still does that. He's done it for quite a few years now.

And uh, And so.uh, he's

been working, I'd say he's been working that way for about 20

years.

I: Uh, who's the head of the house in your family?.

S: I would have to say my momma, she's the head of the house really.

My daddy carries the name, and if there're any big decisions to

be made they both make it. And there's one thing about momma and

daddy, that, they had their troubles just like everybody else, but

there was one thing about them, they never kept secrets from each

other uh, where their children were concerned. If I did something,

and I'd say, "Oh, please don't tell daddy." Well she would say,

"Why now you know I don't keep secrets from your daddy." So she

would tell him, and it was that way with my brothers. Everything that

she knew about us, he knew about us. And if there was a decision

to be made concerning us, then they both made it together.


8










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S: Of course in a final run, I think it still came out with momma

in the first, you know, her opinion. But they both had their say.

I: Uh, when you got out of high school did you say you went to

college?

S: Um huh. I went to Wentworth for two years. I got an Indian

scholarship, that was when, oh, let's see, the reservation was

divided. And the federal, you know the federal government part

of the reservation was divided among the, the Indians. And at that

time they said that Indians, you know, who could qualify could

get a scholarship. Well I was the only one from here that could

qualify for that, so I got a full scholarship. When .Iwent to

Wentworth, I went for two years. I a aW t 4JiTbe I didn't

stay, I traveled back and forth everyday. And I got my ride paid

for, my clothes were paid for, everything that went on at the

college was paid for. It was just a full scholarship, paid for

everything. And everybody said I was crazy for not finishing. And

at the time I couldn't see it. And right, and even now I, I still

don't see it. I mean I would have done the same thing again if

I was in the same situation, uh, getting married, instead of

finishing. Sometimes I do think I'd like to go back when my

children get in school, but I don't know whether I will or not.

I might. Uh, and it'll be too long and they will all be in school.

I: Well, let's get to this business of when did you get married? Not

necessarily the year now, but did you meet Nelson while you were

at college?



9










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S: Well no, uh, well I was in college at the time, but uh, I have

an uncle and an aunt who lived in Key West, Florida. And my uncle

was in the Navy. And they came home during the summer for vacation,

and I had vacation too because we didn't go, I didn't go to summer

school. And so they wanted me to go and spend a month with them

down there, and then momma would come down and pick me up during

their vacation. And so mom and daddy, first time I'd ever been

away from home by myself, and that far away especially. So I went

on with them down to Florida, and uh see, my cousins kept saying,

"Well Sherry," said that, "We got two good looking missionaries

down here." And uh, well of course I knew what the missionaries

were, because we belong to the Mormon Church. And I grew up in

the church, my parents were both Mormons. And uh, so I knew what

the missionaries were, and all the girls always flirt with

missionaries anyway. And we got down there and I met this missionary,

and it was just like meeting anybody else. But then he was

transfered,two weeks before I had to come back home, he was

transferred. And it was a funny thing, I didn't know him for about

two weeks, and when he left, I cried. He didn't know it, but I

cried. And I thought, now I wonder how, what I, my name would sound

like you know, Mrs. Osborne. And I thought about that. And he gave

me a picture of his, and on it he said, "This is not a gift, it's

a trade. I want one of you." Well he was gone and there was no

way I could give him one. But I did, he did have my address, and

he says, "I have a friend that's up in the Southern States Mission,"

said, "if you meet him," says, "tell him hello for me."

10







CAT 53A



S: Well I met his friend when I came back, and so I wrote him a letter

and told him. This was a no no for missionaries, they were not

supposed to get letters from girls in the field. And he wrote to

me for awhile, and then he told his mission Prei tr ; that

he was writing to me. And he said, "Well don't write to her any-

more until you get our permission." And he just quit writing letters,

like that, and I had no idea why he quit, but I never wrote to

him again. But in our church we have what's known as the Patriarch-\

eBlessing,and in my blessing, I was promised that in due time I

would be married to understand a vision. And I always prayed that

when due time came, I would know whom it was. And when due time

came, I knew, and I wanted to get married. I knew I was ready to

get married then, I knew it was time, but I didn't have anybody

to marry. And so, during this time I was thinking about it I was

a sophomore in college, and real soon I got a cablegram from Nelson,

and he said he was coming. And so I got ready for him to come for

his vision, and about six months later we got married, in December

of '63. And then we went to the temple, and December also, we went

out to visit his parents for Christmas, right after we got married.

And we were married in the Salt Lake Temple on December 27, 1963.

And that was the happiest time, I think that was the happiest day

that I have ever spent in my life. I don't, I can't describe it

to anybody who hasn't had it before. But I, I was so happy, and

so full of joy at that time, because uh, since, I had wanted to

always be married in the Temple. And I, I don't say that I was

really worthy to go, but I had prepared myself, the way the church

had taught us to prepare today. Well I was, I had always tried

11







CAT 53A



S: ...to prepare myself for that. And when it did come, that was

just the fulfillment of one of the dreams that I had. And uh, to

this day I can still +ell how I felt when I came out. And uh, that's

what we always try to teach all the young people in the church, is

to prepare teai. for the dj .

I: How did you talk Nelson into settling in Rockhill.

S: Well it wasn't a problem, because he said that when he came here

he thought he'd died and gone to heaven.

I: _

S: See it was during the summer and it was so green. And you know

what it's like out west in Utah, it's awful, most places. And where

he'lived especially, is in southern Utah, and it's uh, it's desert

down there. And they have a few little scraggly trees, and a little

bit of grass, just a little bit, anduh, well, and every, when

he came here every, there were so many trees, it was just green

everywhere. And he really'liked it. And so, it wasn't a problem.

I: Uh, you've lived down on the reservation most of your life?

S: I've never lived anywhere else.

1: How did you come to settle in this particular house?

S: Well uh, when, when we got married we stayed with my parents for

a month or until we could find a place to rent because we didn't

know what we were going to be, what, I mean as far as, you know,

having a home built or something like that. So we decided that

we would just rent for awhile, and we lived on the reservation

up near town in my aunt's house. And then one day I came down the

road, and I saw these people out here looking at the house.


12





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S: And this house was uh, Chief Blue's home, Chief Daniel Blue's

house, this is the house he lived in, he and his wife, and his

son, and their family. And when he died well his wife and their

son still lived here. But after uh, Aunt Blue, that's what we

called her, that was his wife. Well after she died, and then

their son died, well his son's wife sold the place. And uh, so

we, I drove down, down to momma's one day, and the grass was, oh,

it was just way up to the windows. And I just wondered what they

were going to do with the house, it just sat out here looking so

lonqome and everything. And I, I stopped at one of the houses lai

ti-e- HN y __, and I said "What's all those people.

doing down there?" And they said, "Oh, they're trying to buy that

place down there, see that man's going to sell it." And so that's

the first I had heard of it but, I knew that I, I would rather

live, live in a place that was, well that somebody sort of historic

had lived in before. And also, I wanted on the reservation, and

at the time it was the only house on the reservation that was

empty. And uh, so I stopped and I asked the man about it, and he

said, "Well yes," says "it's for sale," says "how much do you want

to pay for it?" you know? And I said, "Well I don't want to pay

too much for it," Iaid, "it belonged to the Indians anyway."

I: ___________________________

S: So he said, uh, he said, "Well what," you know, just talk around

and around in a circle. And so finally he said, "Well if you really

want the house just have your husband come and talk to me, and

we'll make arrangements for it." So we talked, we talked with him,

and he was really nice. He got everything set up for us, and in


13








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S: ...about a month's time we had had the papers and everything signed

ready to move in. And we got it fixed up. Now when we moved in,

when Chief Blue lived here it was a two-compartment house. I mean

there were three rooms on each side, and Chief Blue lived on this

side, and his son lived on the other side. And they had their own

kitchens, and their livingroom and everything was all separate.

But when we moved in they had already made an archway between,

to connect between houses, and we fixed it up. They, they didn't

have much paint on it, it was never, the sheet rock was never

paved or anything like that. And they used the coal heaters then,

and it was black, you know, the top and everything. And we did

a good bit of work on it, and uh, got it to looking a little

bit better. And we liked. it. Now it's just too small for us. But

uh, it is uh, right across from the church. Most people, when we

first moved here, people came, just like they did when aunt, Aunt

Blue and the family was here. Well they would come you know, when

they'd come to church, they'd come over, and they'd come out here

and sit in the yard. Well people did that for a long time after

we moved here. And then I guess after I got my children, you know,

and I guess they kind of considered, well it would be a problem

for me having to get little children ready while everybody was

sitting around. So they don't come in the mornings anymore.

Sometimes some of them will come before we have sacrement meetings

at night on Sunday, and wait until church time.

I: It's been sort of a central place?

S: Well I don't think it's as central as it could be. Nelson is the

Deacon now, and our telephone rings a lot. We don't have too many
14








CAT 53A



S: ...people coming. Some days it's mlxx, it's more hectic than

others days because some days everybody comes all at once. And

other times we don't have anybody. And so, but everybody notices

it. You can't help but notice it when you come to church.

I: At onetime, didn't people come and maybe spend the day pitching

horse shoes?

S: Well I think they did. They had a horse shoe uh, things out here.

And even now down in the old barn down there where Uncle Sam had

all his stuff, they uh, we found old horse shoes, and uh, things

that he used to hitch animals. And some people came and carried

them off before we moved in. They new we were buying the place,

and they just came and carried them off before we could even

move in. And uh, and didn't even let me know, you know, that it

was being done. And all those things, I would have kept St myself.

I: Do you think they were sort- of souvenir hunters?

S: Well it was the people from down here, some of them that were

his close kin people, you know. And they wanted them I guess,

so they kept them. But the yard is still, it's not cleaned off

like we wanted it. But when he, Uncle Sam, lived here, he kept

it clean, all of it. Everything was just in order. And he set

out a little orchard, peaches, and apples, and uh, we have apple

trees down there now that he set out years ago. And they, the

apples aren't that good on them because they haven't been taken

care of. Now we just found out last year there's a beautiful tree

down there that he set out. And we didn't know what it was. And

last year Nelson went down, and it was a chestnut tree, it had


15








CAT 53A



S: ...chestnuts on it and everything. And ever since we found out

what it was, well we've been trying to keep it clean around it.

Because, well because, our culture is really dying out. And one

thing that those old Indians did have, is that they kept their

yards clean, they kept their houses clean. And they may not have

had good furniture, anything fancy, but it was clean.

I: Did you find that true about their persons too, their bodies?

S: The ones that I know, they did. Most of the old people have died

off now, that I, that were really, you know, old. But they, they,

as far as I, I can see, that they really weren't dirty. Well I

did know a few Indians, but uh, even they have changed a little.

I: Do you have any idea why the Indians would maybe spend so much

time keeping the yard clean, or keeping their house, or their

children, or themselves, and their clothes clean, and maybe not

repairing a fence or something like that?

S: Well I think that uh, the Mormon Church had a lot to do with

that. Because when they came in, well they, one of the principles,

or principle teachings of the church is that cleanliness is next

to Godliness. And they, they all think... And they may not have

always lived the way they knew they should, but there were some

things that they just really put into it. To...well they worked

on more than they did others. And I think this is one of them.

They really, really believed that uh, cleanliness is next to

Godliness. And I'm sure that that's why, why they kept things

so clean. I know we used to have to get out from under the,





16










Cat 53A



S: ...get underneath that house, it was up you know, and you could

crawl under, and we used to have to sweep out from underneath it.

And then take, go down and cut down trees, tree limbs you see,

and sweep our front yard, just like we did the house.

I: How many children do you all have?

S: I have four.

I: And a housefull?

S: Handfull too.

I: Did you have those right close together?

S: Well yes, I've been married, let's see, in December I would have

been married nine years. And my...






END SIDE ONE


























17








CAT 53A
SUBJECT: SHERRY OSBORNE
INTERVIEWER: WHITESELL
SIDE: TWO






S: Nelson Greg is my oldest child, he will be eight in December.

David Todd is my second child, and he was six in August. Now

Amber is the only little girl I have, she's the third child, and

she will be five in December. And Jason is the baby and he will

be two in November. And they're a handful, because I used to say,

I had, I had four children in less than about six years, and so

they're close together. But I think that's good, I think they get

along fairly well. They fuss and fight alot, but I think that

will help them, when they get older, I mean being closer to age,

to age, in age.-as they are.

I: Well with all this talk about women's lib, where do you stand on

these new ideas?

S: I read alot about that. Well I don't read that much, but I just,

I read what's in the newspapers and I hear it on T.V. a lot, and

I just don't go for it. If women want to get out and work and make

their own living and stuff, that's fine with me, I don't care. But

I just hate for them to make it seem like, well we, we're,

enslavement and thinking like that, like that, I don't care for

that at all because I think a mother's place is in the home. And

that's one thing I think that has helped to make children not

honor their parents so much, is because their mothers are not, their

mothers are not home with them. And if your mother's not home

and you can do what you want, kids oftentimes do just what they

want.

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I: What about the women's lib stand on things like abortion?

S: Well I don't agree with,almost anything they say I disagree with.

But as far as I'm concerned now, I'm a Mormon, I always have been

and I always will be I guess. And the church does not approve of

abortion simply because we believe that it, it's the Divine Right

and gift to have children. And it's a commandment of Gods, and it's

just like committing murder, to have, conceive a child rather, and

then just do away with it because you don't want it.

I: Do you think any of the Catawba girls here practice this?

S: Well not that I know of, and we have had, when I was growing up,

we had a few young people who, who got into trouble. But they did

not, they had their children, they kept them. And I think that

even though they did get in trouble that was even more to their

advantage to keep them because they, they, they knew that they

weren't destroying life.

I: Do you think most of the Catawbas feel this way?

S: I think so, I'm almost positive.

I: What about other women's lib ideas, that women are not going to

be equal until they're out of the home, until they become more

dominant, dominating, or...?

S: Well I don't care to be equal with my husband. I mean I married

him because he was a man. I mean, and that's what I want him to

stay. I didn't, I didn't get married to take over my family, I

mean you know, to make the money and all this stuff. I got married,

I didn't want to work. And I don't think that women should be, the

Lord made people so that, well He made the woman so she could be a



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S: ...helpmate for the man, she could help him. Well, you don't do

much helping if you're not home to see that all the things are

done in your home that need to be done, or if you pay somebody to

be there, that's not, that's not the kind of help that was meant

you see.

I: Do you think then that the man should be the boss in everything?

S: Well I think he should be the head of his home. I also think that

the woman should have her say so. I mean you know, have her say

so in the decisions that are made, and then make him work it out,

and both, both of their opinions.

1: Do you think that your parents were too strict or severe?

S: Well never too lenient, but they were strict, very strict, and I've

said several times, and I told momma this, that she was an old

fashioned woman. But I wouldn't have had it any other way. Because

she taught me things that I will never forget. And I remember too

that she, always she'd tell me when I'd go on a date, she'd say,

"now you be good." And while I was gone I could see her looking

at me. And I didn't mind it. I didn't mind it at all because that

in itself helped to keep me straight, and to know that she trusted

me even though she, she did have kind of strict ways. She did trust

me, and that made a lot of difference.

I: Are you strict on your own children?

S: I try to be. Sometimes I'm more lenient I guess than I should be.

But just like the other day this lady called and said that Greg,

that's the oldest child, had been hitting her little child in

primary. Well that's the, that's the church program for the little

kids. And, well, I don't mind anybody telling me that my children,

what they're doing wrong, if they tell me in the right way.

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S: Because I can't correct them if I don't know what they're, what

they're doing. And so she called and she told us, and we talked

to Greg, and he, he didn't deny it. He told us just what he did,

and I was so proud because he did. And then he came home today and

a little boy had took his fist and whopped him up side the face,

and he's got a big blue mark on it. And when he came home I was

so mad I didn't know what to do. And then I thought now- Greg

why did he. do that? He said, "I was just playing." And so it didn't

look like anybody was playing to me, but I just happened to think

what it's like to be a young boy like that. And I guess he was

playing. But it's kind of hard, I've never been a parent before,

and I guess nobody has. And sometimes it's hard to make the right

decif on about your children.

I: What are your plans for the future?

S: Oh, I don't really know. We have plans to educate our children,

to send our boys on a mission, and like I said before, I may go

back and finish college, I don't know. I don't know what my, Nelson

wants to do. He'd like to finish school too. And I think that that

would probably be at least what would come first before I did.

So our plans are very indefinite so far, as far as, well, you know,

knowing just exactly what we're going to do. But we have no intentions

of moving away, or, or of making any big changes in the way we

live or anything like that.

I: What do you, what would you do for the Catawba Indians as a tribe,

if you had your way?





21





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S: Well I think if I really had my way about it, I would like for all

of them to live here on the reservation, and have all the things

that they needed, that was necessary for them to have a good

happy life. And the main thing that I think I would like for them

to do, is for all of them to come to church. And be active in the

church, because the church is what made us what we are. We are

different from most of the other Indian tribes that I've seen,

and I've seen quite a few. And we are, we live a lot different

than they do, and I attribute that to the church.

I: Do you think if you could make up a roll or something, the active

church members would be more advanced than the inactive?

S: I don't know, because there are some that aren't active in the

church, and they seem to get along a;ot better than those that

do. So you can see it's just, just the adversary in there working.

You don't, you can't always tell what is best by the ones who go

to churches, and the others, you can't, it's hard to tell the

difference. Because in these days and times Satan kind of makes

it look more tempting not to come to church, because look, they,

they get so much more than you do, and you go to church.

I: What about the tribe, as a tribe, would you like to see the tribe

continue, or forget about tribal things?

S: Well we don't have too much tribal going on anyway, tribal affairs

at all right now. But we still consider ourselves a tribe. And I

would like to see it go on and on, but it, we're gradually getting

out of it. And as we're intermarrying into the other races, it's

just the end, the Indians so far are just going. And it shouldn't

be too many more years and you wouldn't be able to. tell one from,

you know, any of the other people.

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I: Do any of the Indians put a lot of stress on marrying within the

tribe?

S: No, we don't have very much of that. In fact, most of the time,

I think that we're taught not to because everybody is so close

kin to each other. So closely related that, that you take a chance

on your children not being what they should be.

I: Sort of a mutual agreement then that marriage outside is all right?

S: Well yes, well everybody, no one says anything about that.

I: What about this old reservation, what would you like to see done

there?

S: Well I would just like to see that it stays the way it is, because

really, that's the only thing that we have to hold to, that would

connect us to any history in South Carolina at all.

I: What will you do when the time runs out, that no Indians that

were on the roll back in, was it, '62 or '3...

S: It was '63...I'm not sure.

I: Is it your understanding that this land is going to revert back

to the state of South Carolina?

S: I have no understanding of that. I don't know. I have not read

the contract or anything. I guess we should read into it, but I

have no idea as to what that is, but I'm sure that they would have

quite enough for a roll.

I: Are you assuming that your four children could live on the

reservation?

S: They better.



23









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I: If they want to?

S: They better because this is, they're Indians, and as any Indian

can move and live on the old reservation, any place they pick.

As long as someone else hasn't staked it out for their own. I

mean there are some places down there that people have had their

old house places, and they want it kept for them. And of course

they couldn't keep it if somebody decided they wanted it, but

most of them, you know, they regard the other person's opinion,

they say, "Well that's where I want to live."

I: If a matter came up concerning that old reservation, who would

the state suP

S: I really don't know, we don't have a chief anymore. And I guess

they could come to one of the members, you know, one of the mem-

bers of the tribe, and have them call a meeting and what not.

I: Did you vote to do away with your chief?

S: Well see, the chief came under the federal government, that stuff

was under the federal government. And when we did away with that,

we did away with all the other things that went with, went with

the tribe. So we don't have a chief. We have people who say they,

they're the chief, but we don't have a chief.

I: You think then that the chief was only chief as long as the

federal government recognized him as a chief?

S: Well I, I think that he was a chief only as long as we recognized

as a chief.

I: Then you think that the Indians quit recognizing a chief once the

old reservation was split?


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CAT 53A



S: Once the new, once the new reservation was split, yes. Now that,

that's the understanding that most Indians have. Now there may

be a few that's confused, but as far as most of them are con-

cerned, the chief and everything, all the tribal things went when

that went.

I: Do you think that was good?

S: Well I think we need a chief right now, not that we have any

affairs to conduct or anything, but I think it would be good to

have one just in case anything ever came up. But otherwise we

really don't need one. It would just be, you know, in a name.

I: Honorary or something like that?

S: Yeah.

I: What about a museum of some sort ?

S: Well we've had discussions about this, and people'.want one, or

some people want one. Now the prophefo.a that goes for the

"Th4iarwn -lbe his right as an

Indian minority. And that belongs to the state of South Carolina

I believe for the museum or the historical society or somebody.

And they want to get a museum down here. Well now I think that's

well and good if the Indians got to run, it, and looked over

the affairs of it. Because really, it wouldn't be an Indian thing

if they put it down here and everybody else come in and take over.

That wouldn't be what I, not what I think it was. And too, I have

my own opinion about it as far as our, it's so close to my heart.

And I, I guess I'm backwards. I'm an old Indian I reckon. I'm just



25







CAT 53A



S: ...kind of backwards in the fact that I like to have my own

privacy. I don't care for people to be tramping around, and you

know, peeking around looking at me, you know, see what everything's

about. And it's just going to be, it would be so crowded over

there that I, I don't, I'm not sure that I would want it. I know

it would be a good thing, but if it set right on top of my house,

I'm not sure.

I: Do you think there would be enough things out here to be put in

a museum?

S: Well I think there's-some people that have quite a few things.

Now whether they would put them in a museum, I don't know. Because

most of them are, there, there's not that much, and the ones that

do have, I guess they might be afraid, you know, that something

would happen to them. And that's all they have that connects them

with the past.

1: They would have to have some sort of guard situation or locks

or something on the doors.

S: It would have to, it would definitely have to have something.

Because like I say, I'm not sure that they would want to put theirs

in because if, uh, well if you had a history, and you didn't know

anything about it, and you just had a few things left, you would

want to hold on to it. And that's about all we have, only what's

in Robert's and Carrol's.

I: What about pottery?

S: Well contrary to what's come out in the paper several times, that

nobody makes pottery down here, almost every of, everyone of the

women do make. They quit for awhile because we went to Cherokee


26






CAT 53A



S: ...see,, and sold them, and then the shops were so full that they

wouldn't buy anymore you see. And that made it hard to sell.

I: I see you have a piece over there now, are you working on that

yourself?

S: Well now I'm not working on it, I made this last year when we

went out to visit Nelson's parents in Utah. And I made a load and

took out with us when we were there, and I had no problem. In fact,

one person bought all, all the pieces of them. And he would go

back, these were going back to and I'm going

to make a load and take to

I: Do you think then that there are-e LA3 mC 9-gS ?

S: Well there are, we have quite a few that make pots, and every one

of them, their pots are different. You can look at their pots and

you can tell who made them, if you know the people, just by look-

ing at their pots.

1: I have had some young people say to me they'd like to know how

to make the pottery. And they can see their parents and grand-

parents doing it you know.

S: Right.

I: But there's no central location_

or they don't have time enough to do it,

have you thought about central locations for pottery you could

sell it to, make it and sell it?

S: Well we thought about that one time, but I don't know whether

they'd be really that much interested in it or not. The young

people these days, -e, they don't think too much about that you



27







CAT 53A



S: ...know. They're like most of the other young people. They like

they're music and they like to be on the> go so much. And it's

just a few I think that are, of the young people, that are really

interested in it. But if you would get their materials you could

go to any one of the ladies and they'd teach you, they'd be glad

to. Now there is one thing that I didn't like too well, one time,

was that I went to a ceramics class. And this lady, she thought

that it would be fun, and it would be nice if the ladies would

get together and teach the outsiders how to make pottery. Well I

didn't agree with that because of the fact that, that we're

Catawbas, our pottery is strictly Catawba. And if we taught

everybody else how to make it, what would we have left? We wouldn't

have anything. Because we don't have anything else. We don't have

any bead work or basket work. All we have is the pottery. And if

we taught other people how to do it, then we don't have nothing.-

So I thought that the best thing would be if we keep it within

the tribe. And -:even though, no matter how, how far advanced we

get from being Indians, or what people consider Indianstoday,

that we'd still have it. I, I, I firmly believe that you know.

Now it sounds kind of selfish I guess, but...

I: I see, I get your point there though. It's kind of like a baker

wants to keep his recipes.

S: Yeah.

I: Or various people want to keep the secrets of their trade or

something. Well did this, did the pottery thing work, I mean the

ceramic thing, did it go over good?

S: Well it was just one of thei-t lady's organizations in the church

28








CAT 53A



S: ...that went up. And it would have gone over fairly well had we

continued to go, but we didn't do that. But I'm sure they would

have, you know, enjoyed it. But they still, they they basically

work in the clay. They don't have, they just use their hands and

their knives you know, things like that. And it's no problem for

them. I think they enjoy that, making their pots just like this,

better even than working with that other stuff.

____I'd like to say that I'm

thankful. that I was born an Indian. I'm very greatful to be an

Indian. And that's one thing that I want to teach my children, is

that they are part Indian, and I don't want them to be ashamed of

it. It's nothing to be ashamed of. And I love my family, my

children. It's like what we say in the Book of Mormon, I guess

those Lamanites, those Indians during that early time loved their

children with the dearest love. And I think we still have that in

our tribe today. It come through all that time, that we do love

our children with a different kind of love than most people do.

And I'm very thankful to be doing this. I hope that it will help

you in some way.

I: Well thank you Sherry. I feel that I've just got to make one

comment for the record. You may not recall, but when you were a

child, I taught you in Sunday school class. And I can remember

you as being a very dilligent Sunday school student, a young lady,

who even then, had her lessons prepared, and prepared well. So I

would like to end on that note, to remember a little bit with you

about those days, and what a good student you were.

S: Thank you.

29





Full Text

PAGE 1

CAT 53A SUBJECT: Sherry Wade Osborne INTERVIEWER: Edy Whitesell DATE: September 21, 1972 TAPE: One SIDE: One PAGE: One I: This is an interview with Sherry Wade Osborne, Septl3Illber 21, 1972, at the Osborne residence, Route 6, Rockhill, South Carolina. Edy Whitesell doing the interview. Sherry would you begin by telling us something about yourself? S: Well, I was born Sherry Jeraldine Wade. I was born on December 8, 1942, at St. Philip's Hospital, in Rockhill. I was quite a disapointment to my parents however, because they wanted a little boy first, and I came out to be a little girl. And as it happened, in the hospital, I was the only little girl baby born on that day. There were a bunch of little, little, little boys. And the doctor asked mom, mom and daddy if they wanted to trade me for one of those boys, and they said no, they'd keep me. So I was one of those 1942 "war babies 11 and as. my daddy had to go to war, so I didn't see him for awhile. I think I was about a year old when he left, and I didn't know him;,_I remember when he came back that I wouldn't look at him. I didn't consider him being my daddy at all. All I had was a momma. And he would just try to make up to me, and I just wouldn't do it for a long time. And I had another brother while my daddy was gone and crone home, and then before he got out of service I had a

PAGE 2

CAT 53 A S: o•oa brother, his name was Gary, named him Gary Junioro And he, he comes, when daddy came in, he said, "Daddy! Daddy!" He was com pletely different than I waso And then, well I had another brother; he was Michael, Michael Grego And I'll say right now, that's where I got my first baby's name from, was Greg. Michael Greg was his name. And I didn't, I turned out to be the only little girl in the family, and sometimes I liked it, and sometimes I didn't. And even now I wonder what it would have been like to have a sister, as I was growing up. I remember that as a child I did get along good with people. I tried to get along good with people. I never_got into any fusses or anything. And I went to, the first.time I went to school my first teacher was a Mrs. Grace. I went to the yellow Indian : school down there, and I cried, and I cried, and I had to go home. But I got over that because my teacher was a real good teacher and I enjoyed it after awhile. And then we came up to the new school, the new Indian school up here, and it was the same thing. It was just like leaving home again. Bu~ we got used to f Mrs. Foreman and Mrso Robinson, and we enjoyed being here, as pupils . in the school. And so when I was growing up I loved to read. And reading was my best subject until I got into grammar school,and English turned out to be the best subject I had. And I remember when I went I to high,school, I made 100 on my English exam, and it thrilled me to I death. And it eemed so hard for everybody else, and it just came . so easy for me. And my brothers, they, they could not do it. 2

PAGE 3

CAT 53A S: In fact they had no reading, no math, no English whatsoever. They didn't do too well in anything except sports. They enjoyed that. But when I was growing up things were a little bit different than they are . now for my children. When we went to school, we went with all Indian childreno And all of them were my cousins. Half of us are so mixed up and so close together wi don't realize it until somebody dies, and then we get to see how close we really are. And everybody was the same, you lived right next to them, and you knew just everybody's b~siness, we knew. And now, well even when I went to Lesslie School, that . was the first white school that I went to. People accepted as Indians. They weren't mean to us or anything. _ They treated us good, at least the group that I went in they did. And I knew boys going to school out there, and when I went to high school we did have a little bit of a problem, right after we first started because these kids would get in the corner. We'd all stick together, the Indians would all stick together. And we got there, and ' we'd walk around, and these boys would holler, "Woo woo woo woo woo!'! you know, and oh, it would make me so mad because I didnl.t mind being an Indian. I don't mind it riow, in fact I'm proud of it. But nothing makes me any madder, or can get me riled up more, as the . fact that somebody seems to be showing off, you know, or thinks they're better. And so this one day, this boy~ this one boy did it every day, every day, and so it was just a bunch of us girls. Well one day he did it, and we just backed hirii up. We just backed him up in a corner, we had our books in our hand, and we jst went right at , h:im. And to this day, that boy has been one of our best friends. 3

PAGE 4

CAT 53A S: Because I guess he just was seeing what he could get away . 0 with, and he found out afterwards that we were really human too. And he never did it anymore. He was just as good to us as he could be. So he I: You think he was just trying to get some reaction of some sort from you? S: Well I think really, at : the time ' ; " he was just trying to be ugly. And then he found outf-1ter awhile he did get a reaction, and he found out that we weren't ashamed to be Indians. And, but we didn't want to be downgraded or ridiculed right in front of people because we were ______________ --------------I: Did they ask you any questions about where you lived,or if you lived.. in a teepee? S: Well now I used to be asked that a lot, now I don't anymore, but I used to get, be asked that.la lot. Because when I went to school if they would put me down as something else, I told them I was an Indian. And the children would all look around the room, and they'd say, "Well, do youall live in a tent?" you know, ".Have youall got a teepee or a totem pole?" All this stuff. And I, so sometimes those questions got so ridiculous I just told them yes, you know. Let them believe it, or they didn't have to, it didn't mattero But we don't get that question anymore. Now if my children do, I don't know any thing about ito Now on their records at school I put them down as Indians. And I don't think that they have, there's no discrimination at allmade between them. 4

PAGE 5

CAT 53A I: You might be interested to know the indiscretion in my ciass last year. Black students were asking one of my Indian students "' some questions. And they were curious, and they wanted to know about the teepees, and about religion, you know they really And it's interesting to see that we don't have this ~xchang; of cultures right here . Ju< f:, Ii k~ ,+\.e,cc_ l' S.~oiJ)J . -b t... l:HK ~hat 1ou think we ~have. -' in Rockhill S: It's, things have changed so much since we were, we were growing 1" t' ' up~ Like I say, we stuck together_r=-yett luro..r; and we still do. But there're so mcl?Y friends.now outside the church, and the Indians themsellzes, that people are really nice, you know. To me, now, they are. Eve, I guess yo~'ve found some people who are going to be ugly any, anytime. But most people I think, on the whole, accept Indians as such, and don't regard them as something dirty or ugly or something like that. I: What did you do as a child after you got home from school? S:' The first thing we did when we got in off the bus, we got to ride the bus, which Some people didn't get to do, but we did we got to ride the bus. And the first thing we did was run in, "Where's momma?" You know, that's the first question we asked, and then, "What's for supper?" Of course she always had supper ready when we got in off the bus. And so that's what we did. And then we had to, we lived in a house that you could actually lay down at night 5

PAGE 6

CAT 53A S: and look through a crack, and you could see the sun, I mean the moon, or North Star, or something like that. And when it would :rain you'd have to, we had little pots sitting all over the bedroom and place you know. And when we got home we had to carry wood, my daddy would go down in the woods and cut the wood down, and we'd have to carry it up. And then he'd cut it up, and we'd have to take it and stack it on the porch or in the house. And we had to carry the water, we had to carry it about a mile in our tin buckets and cups. And uh, oh, let's see, what else did we have to do? That was just part of it, oh yeah, we had cows, always, when we were little, and chickens, and we had to feed the chickens, and we had to milk the cows. And we had to do that in the morning too, when we got up, before we went to school. And we had to do all that. And, and I en at the time I didn't enjoy it, somet;ilne.s I did, but most of the time I didn't. But thinking on it now, I'm sure that that's why so many kids get in trouble to~ay, because they don't have anything to do. You know, it's just kind of a contrast in the situation between what they do and what we had to do. We had to do it. And uh, when momma washed we had to carry about three tubfulls of water, and they were those grejt big tin tubs, and carrying just the gallon buckets, you know, C\ tl' we:1:-they were bigger than gallons, I'm not sure how big they were. But anyway we had to carry them for about a mile. And it took us about ten trips back and forth, and we were really tired. 6

PAGE 7

CAT 53A I: You got, did you get the water from a well ____________ ? S: No, we got it from a spring. We called it "The Graveyard Spring." That's where . the old cemetery is, down there, and it's down under""'. neath there. And it's down a hill, . and we had to walk back up the hill, and we were so tired by the time got back to the hill, and then we had to go all the way home. And it, it was, it was hard. I: Did that spring supply all those people in that area? S: Well, there's springs all down in here. And so uh, there was, I think, . there was one, . . two, . three, about four families getting water from that one spring. Of course anybody could go in and get it, but we were the ones that mainly relied on that one. And uh, in the mornings, we had to get up and uh, make a fire. And my, me and my brothers took turns getting up. Momma didn't, couldn't make f;i.res teo well, and so t we had to get up and make them, and we'd get up about five o'clock and make the fire, and go back to bed .And then when it's time to get up it, why ' it would be warm in the livingroom. And we'd all run in there with our clothes and put them on, and then get dressed, and then momma would be in the kitchen what was freezing cold, cooking. And then we'd eat in there, and by the time that breakfast was reasy well it would be a little warmed up in the kitchen. I: Did your mother stay home all the time? S: Yes. She never worked, but just awhile. Let's see, it was when I was in college, I think she worked for about a well not even a year she worked. But she never worked, outside of when my daddy 7

PAGE 8

CAT 53A S: worked at the Arvin Mill for a long time, and uh, he had an opportunity ta become a, a boss, a boss man up there. And having never done any work like that, being responsible for anybody, it kind of, he was kind of afraid. And so he just didn't take it. And now after awhile he went to the bleacher to work. And he's still there. He's been there, oh, I don't even know how many years he's been at the bleacher now. But he also makes . cabinets. He works at a cabinet factory everyday for eight hours. And then he works at the bleacher at night for eight hours. ;r_: And this is your dad, he still does? S: Ye_s, he still does that. He's done it for quite a . few years now. And uh, And so _ uh, he's ---------------------been working, I'd say he's been working that way for about 20 years. I: Uh., who' s the head of the house in your family?. S: J: would have to say my momma, she's the head of the house really. My daddy carries the name, and if there're any big decisions to be made they both make it. And there's one thing about momma and daddy, that, they had their troubles just like everybody else, but there was one thing about them, they never kept secrets from each other uh, where their children were concerned. If I did something, and I'd say, "Oh, please don't tell daddy." Well she would say, "Why now you know I don't keep secrets from your daddy." So she would tell him, and it was that way with my brothers. Everything that she knew about us, he knew about us. And if there was a decision to be made concerning us, then they _. both made it together. 8

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CAT 53A S: Of course in a final run, I think it still crune out with momma in the first, you know, her opinion. But they both had their say. I: Uh, when you got out of high school did you say you went to college? S: Um huh. I went to Wentworth for two years. I got an Indian scholarship, that was when, oh, let's see, the reservation was divided. And the federal, you know the federal govemment part of the reservation was divided among the, the Indians. And at that tiJne. they sa;i.d that Indians, you know, who could qualify could get a scholarship. Well I was the only one from here that could qualify fo:i; that, so I got a full scholarship. When,Lwentto I I ' I Wentworth, I went for two years. wa..~ o.. ,tc,.y .{"+vb~~ I didn't stay, I traveled back and forth everyday. And I got my ride paid for, my clothes were paid for, everything that went on at the college was ~aid for. It was just a full scholarship, paid for everything. And everybody said I was crazy for not finishing. And at the ti~e I couldn't see it. And right, and even now I, I still don't see it. I :mean I would have done the same thing again if I was in the same situation, uh, getting married, instead of finishing. Sometimes I do think I'd like to go back when my children get in school, but I don't know whether I will or not. I might. Uh, and it'll be too long and they will all be in school. I: Well, let's get to this business of when did you get married? Not necessarily the year now, but did you meet Nelson while you were at college? 9

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CAT 53A S: Well no, uh, well I was in college at the time~ but uh, I have an uncle and an aunt who lived in Key West, Florida. And my uncle was in the Navy. And they came home during the summer for vacation, and I had vacation too because we didn't go, I didn't go to summer school. And so they wanted me to go and spend a month with them down there, ancithen momma would come down and pick me up during their vacation. And so mom and daddy, first time I'd ever been away from home by myself, and that far away especially. So I went on with them down to Florida, and uh see, my cousins kept saying, "Well Sherry," said,that, "We got two good looking missionaries down here." And uh, well of course I knew what the missionaries were, because we belong to the Mormon Church. And I grew up in the church, my parents were both Mormons. And uh, so I knew what the missionaries were, and ~11 the girls always flirt with missionaries anyway. And we got down there and I met this missionary, and it was just like meeting anybody else. But then he was transfered,two weeks before I had to come back home, he was transfered. And it was a ftmny thing, I didn't know him for" about two weeks, and when he left, I cried. He didn't know it, but I cried. And I thought, now I wonder how, what I, my name would sound like you know, Mrs. Osborne. And I thought about that. And he gave me a picture of his, and on it he said, "This is not a gift, it's a trade. I want one of you." Well he was gone and there was no way I could give him one. But I did, he did have my address, and he says, "I have a friend that's up in the Southern States Mission, 11 said, "if you meet him, 11 says, "tell him hello for me." 10

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CAT 53A S: Well I met his friend when I came back, and so I wrote him a letter and told him. This was a no no for missionaries, they were not supposed to get letters from girls in the field. And he wrote to me for awhile, and then he told his mission Pt e<:iJr l'l-6 that he was writing to me. And he said, "Well don't write to her any more until you get our permission. II And he just quit writing letters, like that, and I had no idea why he quit, but I never wrote to him again. But in our church we have what's known as the Patriarch~\ ~l.ess;Lng,and in my blessing, I was promised that in due time I would be married to understand a vision. And I always prayed that when due ti.me came, I would know whom it was. And when due time ca.me, I knew, and I wanted to get married. I knew I was ready to get married then, I knew it was time, but I didn't have anybody to marry. And so, during this time I was thinking about it I was a sophomore in college, and ,.: real soon I got a cablegram from Nelson, ' and he said he was coming. And so I got ready for him to come for his vision, and about six months later we got married, in December of '63. And then we went to the lemple, and December also, we went out to visit his parents for Christmas, right after we got married. And we were married in the Salt Lake Temple on December 27, 1963. And that was the happiest time, I think that was the happiest day that I have ever spent in my life. I don't, I can't describe it to anybody who hasn't had it before. But I, I was so happy, and so full of joy at that time, because uh, since, I had wanted to always be married in the lemple. And I, I don't say that I was really worthy to go, but I had prepared myself, the way the church had taught us to prepare today. Well I was, I had always tried 11

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CAT;.. 53A S: to prepare myself for that. And when it did come, that was just the fulfilllnent of one of the dreams that I had. And uh, to this day I can still tell how l felt when I came out. And uh, that's what we always try to teach all the young people in the church, is to prepare ted~ for the _d"" I: How did you talk Nelson into settling in Rockhill. S: Well it wasn't a problem, because he said that when he came here he thought he'd died and gone to heaven. I: S: See it was during the SUilllller and it was so green. And you know what it's like out west in Utah, it's awful, most places. And where he ' lived especially, is in southern Utah, and it's uh, it's deserty down there. And they have a few little scraggly trees, and a little bit of grass, just a little bit, and , uh, well, and every, when h.e came here every, there were so many trees, it was just green everywhere. And he really-liked it. And so, it wasn't a problem. i: Uh, you've lived down on the reservation most of your life? S: I've never lived anywhere else. ~: How did you come to settle in this particular house? S: Well uh, when, when we got married we stayed with my parents for a month or until we could find a place to rent because we didn't know what we were going to be, what, I mean as far . as, you know, having a home built or something like that. So we decided that we would just rent for awhile, and we lived on the reservation up near town in my aunt's house. And then one day I came down the road, and I saw these people out here looking at the house. ]2

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CAT 53A S: And this house was uh, Chief Blue's home, Chief Daniel Blue's house, this is the house he lived in, he and his wife, and his r: son, and their family. And when he died well his wife and their son still lived here. But after uh, Aunt Blue, that's what we called her, that was his wife. Well after she died, and then their son died, well his son's wife sold the place. And uh, so we, r drove down, down to mamma's one day, and the grass was, oh, it was just way up to the windows. And r just wondered what they were going to do with the house, it just sat out.here looking so lo~ome and everything. And I, I stopped at one of the houses~ , and I said "What's all those people doing down there?" And they said, "Oh,. they're trying to buy that place. down there, see that man's going to sell it." And so that's the first I had heard of it but, I knew that I, I would rather live, live in a place that was, well that somebody sort of historic had lived in before. And also, I wanted on the reservation, and at the time it was the only house on the reservation that was empty. And uh, so I stopped and I asked the man about it, and he said, "Well yes," says "it's for sale," says "how much do you want to pay for it?" you know? And I said, "Well I don't want to pay too much for it," J5 aid, "it belonged to the Indians anyway." S: So he said, uh, he said, "Well what," you know, just tnlk around and around in a circle. And so finally he said, "Well if you really want the house just have your husband come and talk to me, and we'll make arrangements for it." So we talked, we talked with him, and he was really nice. He got everything set up for us, and in 13

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CAT 53A S: about a month's time we had had the papers and everything signed ready to move in. And we got it fixed up. Now when we moved in, when Chief Blue lived here it was a two-compartment house. I mean there were three rooms on each side, and Chief Blue lived on this side, and his son lived on the other side. And they had their own kitchens, and their livingroom and everything was all separate. But when we moved in they had already made an archway between, to connect between houses, and we fixed it up. They, they didn't have much paint on it, it was never, the sheet rock was never paved or anything like that. And they used the coal heaters then, and it was black, you know, the top and everything. And we did a good bit of work on it, and uh, got it to looking a little bit better. And we liked' it. Now it's just too small for us. But uh, it is uh, right across from the church. Most people, when we first moved here, people ~rune, just like they did when aunt, Aunt Blue and the family was here. Well they would come you know, when they'd come to church, they'd come over, and they'd come out here and sit in the yard. Well people did that for a long time after we_moved here. And then I guess after I got. my children, you know, and I guess they kind of considered, well it would be a problem for me having to get little children ready while everybody was sitting around. So they don't come in the mornings anymore. Sometimes some of them will come before we have sacrement meetings at night on Sunday, and wait until church time. I: It's been sort of a central place? S: Well I don't think it's as central as it could be. Nelson is the Deacon now, and our telephone rings a lot. We don't have too many 14

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CAT -53A S: people coming. Some days it's tmXR, it's more hectic than others days because some days everybody comes all at once. And other times we don't have anybody. And so, but everybody notices it. You can't help but notice it when you come to church. I: At one time, didn't people come and maybe spend the elay pitching horse shoes? S: Well I think they did. They had a horse shoe uh, things out here. And even now down in the old barn down there where Uncle Sam had all his stuff, they uh, we found old horse shoes, and uh, things that he used to hitch animals. And some people caine and carried them off before we moved in. They . new we were buying the place, and they just came and carried them off before we could even move in. And uh, and didn't even let me know, you know, that it was being done. And all those things, I would have kept :aDt myself . I: Do you think they were sortfof souvenir hunters? S: Well it was the people from down here, some of them that were his close kin people, you know. And they wanted them I guess, so they kept them. But the yard is still, it's not cleaned off like we wanted it. But when he, Uncle Sain, lived here, he kept it clean, all of it. Everything was just in order. And he set out a little orchard_, peaches, and apples, and uh, we have apple trees down there now that he set out years ago. And they, the apples aren't that good on them because they haven't been taken care of. Now we just found out last year there's a beautiful tree down there that he set out. And we didn't know what it was. And last year Nelson went down, and it was a chestnut tree, it had 15

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CAT 53A S: chestnuts on it and everything. And ever since we found out what it was, well we've been trying to keep it clean around it. Because, well because, our culture is really dying out. And one thing that those old Indians dd.d have, is that they kept their yards clean, they kept their houses clean. And they may not have had good furniture, anything fancy, but it was clean. I: Did you find that true about their persons too; their bodies? S: The ones that I know, they did. Most of the old people have died off now, that I, that were realiy, you know, old. But they, they, as far as I, l can see, that they really weren't dirty. Well I did know a few Indians, but uh, even they have changed a little. I: Do you have any idea why the Indians would maybe spend so much . time keeping the yard clean, or keeping their house, or their children, or themselves, and their clothes clean, and maybe not repairing a fence or someth~ng like that? S: Well I think that uh, the Mormon Church had a lot to do with that. Because when they came in, well they, one of the principles, or principle teachings of the church is that cleanliness is next to Godliness. And they, they all think. And they may not have always lived the way they knew they should, but there were some things that they just really put into it. To well they worked on more than they did others~ And I think this is one of them. They really, really believed that uh, cleanliness is next to Godliness. And I'm sure that that's why, why they kept things so clean. I know we used to have to get out from under the, 16

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Cat 53A S: get underneath that house, it was up you know, and You could crawl under, and we used to have to sweep out from underneath it. And then take, go down and cut down trees, tree limbs you see, and sweep our front yard, just like we did the house. I: How many children do you all have? S: I have four. I: And a houseful!? S: Handfull too. I: Did you have those right close together? S: Well yes, I've been married, let's see, in December I would have been mar;ried nine years. And my END SIDE 0~ 17

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CAT 53A SUBJECT: SHERRY OSBORNE INTERVIEWER: WHITESELL SIDE: TWO S: Nelson Greg is my oldest child, he will be eight in December. David Todd is my second child, and he was six in August. Now Amber is the only little girl I have, she's the third child, and she will be five in December. And Jason is the baby and he will be two in November. And they' re a handful!, because I used to say, I had, I had four children in less than about six years, and so they're close together. But I think that's good, I think they get along fairly well. They fuss and fight alot, but I think that will help them, when they get older, I mean being closer to age, _ to age, in age .. as they are. I: Well with all this talk about women's lib, where do you stand on these new ideas? S: I read alot about that. Well I don't read that much, but I just, I read what's in the newspapers and I hear it on T.V. a ~ lot, and I just don't go for it. If women want to get out and work and make their own living and stuff, that's fine with me, I don't care. But I just hate for them to make it seem like, well we, we're, enslavement and thinking like that, like that, I don't care for that at all because I think a mother's place is in the home. And that's one thing I think that has helped to make children not honor their parents so much, is because their mothers are not, their mothers are not home with them. And if your mother's not home and you can do what you want, kids oftentimes do just what they want. 18

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CAT 53A I: What about the women's lib stand on things like abortion? S: Well I don't agree with,almost anything they say I . disagree with. But as far as I'm concerned now, I'm a Mormon, I always have been and I always will be I guess. And the church does not approve of abortion simply because we believe that it, it's the . Divine Right and gift to have children. And it's a commandment of Gods, and it's just like co~tting murder, to have, conceive a child rather, and then just do away with it because you don't want it. I: Do you think any of the Catawba girls here practice this? S: Well not that I know of, and we have had, when I was growing up, we had a fe~ young people who, who got into trouble. But they did not, they had their children, they kept them. And I thin.~ that even tltough they did get in trouble that was even more to their advantage to keep them because they, they, they knew that they weren' t destroying life. ; ~ I: Do you think most of the Catawbas feel this way? S: I think so, I'm almost positive. l: What about other women's lib ideas, that women are not going to . be equal until they're out of the home, until they become more dominant, dominating, or ? S: Well I don't care to be equal with my husband. I mean I married him because he was a man. I mean, and that's what I want him to stay. I didn't, I didn't get married to ta..~e over my family, I mean you know, to make the money and all this stuff. I got married, I didn't want to work. And I don't think that women should be, the Lord made people so that, well He made the woman so she could be a 19

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CAT 53A S: helpmate for the man, she could help him. Well, you don't do much helping if you're not home to see that all the things are done in your home that need to be done, or if you pay somebody to be there, that's not, that's not the kind of help that was meant you see. I: Do you think then that the man should be the boss in everything? S: Well I think he should be the head of his home. I also think that the woman should have her say so. I mean you know, have her say so in the deci~ions that are m~de, and then make him work it out, and both, both : of : their opinions. I: Do you think that your parents were too strict . or severe? S: Well never too lenient, but they were strict, very strict, and I've sa;i:.d $everal times, and I told momma this, . that she was an old fashtoned woman. But I wouldn't have had it any other way. Because she taught me things that I w~ll never forget. And I remember too that she, always she'd tell me when I'd go on a date, she'd say, "now you be good." And while I was gone I could see her looking at me. And I didn't mind it. I didn't mind it at all because that in itself helped to keep uie straight, and to know that she trusted me even though she, she did have kind of strict ways. She did trust me, and that made a lot of difference. i: Are you strict on your own children? S: I try _ to be. Sometimes I'm more lenient I guess than I should be. But just like the other day this lady called and said that Greg, that's the oldest child, had been hitting her little child in primary. Well that's the, that's the church program for the little kids! And, well, I don't mind anybody telling me that my children, what they're doing wrong, if they tell me in the right way. 20

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CAT 53A S: Because I can't correct them if I don't know what they're,what they're doing. Arid so she called and she told us, and we talked to Greg, and he, he didn't deny it. He told us just what he did, and I was so proud because he did. Arid then he came home today and a little boy had took his fist and whopped him up side the face, and he's got a big blue mark on it. Arid when he came home I was so mad I didn't know what to do. And then I thought now Greg why > did , he ~ do that? He said, "I was just playing." And so it didn't look like anybody was playing to me, but I just happened to think what it's like to be a young boy like that. Arid I guess he was playing. But it's kind of hard, I've never been a parent before, and l guess nobody has. And sometimes it's hard to make the right dec;i.w-on about your children. I: What are your plans for the future? S: Oh, l don't really know. W,~ have plans to educate our children, to send our boys on a mission, and like l said before,~ may go back and finish college, 1 don't know. l don't know what my,, Nelson wants to do. He'd like to finish school too. Arid I think that that would probably be at least what would come first before I did. So our plans are very indefinite so far, as far as, well, you know, knowing just exactly what we're going to do. But we have no intentions of moving away,, or, or of making any big changes in the way we live or anything like that. I: What do you, what would you do for the Catawba Indians as a tribe, if you had your way? 21

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Cat 53A S: Well I think if I really had my way about it, I would like for all of them to live here on the reservation, and have all the things that they needed, that was necessary for them to have a good happy life. And the main thing that I think I would like . for them to do, is for all of them to come to church. And be active in the church, because the church is what made us what we are. We are different from most of the other Indian tribes that I've seen, and I've seen quite a few. And we are, we live a lot different than they do, and I attribute that to the church. I: Do you think if you could make up a roll or something, the active church members would be more advanced than the inactive? S: I don't know, because there are some that aren't active in the church, and they seem to get along <\..Jot better than those that do. $0 you can see it's just, just the adversary in there working. You don't, you can't always tell what is best by the ones who go to churches, and the other~, you can't, it's hard to tell the difference. Because in these days and times Satan kind of makes it look more tempting not to come to church, because look, they, th.ey get so JD,uch more than you do, and you go to church. I: What about the tribe, as a tribe, would you like to see the tribe cont:i.nue, or forget about tribal things? S: Well we don't have too much tribal going on anyway, tribal affairs at all right now. But we still consider ourselves a tribe. And I would like to see it go on and on, but it, we're gradually getting out of it. And as we're intermarrying into the other races, it's just the end, the Indians so far are just going. And it shouldn't be too many more years and you wouldn't be able to , tell one from, you know, any of the other people. 22

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CAT 53A I: Do any of the Indians put a lot of stress on marrying within the tribe? S: No, we don't have very much of that. In fact, most of the time, I think that we' re taught not to because everybody is so close kin to each other. So closely related that, that you take a chance . on your children not being what they should be~ I: Sort of a mutual agreement then that marriage outside is all. right? S: Well yes, well everybody, no one says anything about that. I: What about this old reservation, what would you like to see done there? S: Well I would j':lst like to see that it stays the way it is, because really, that's the only thing that we have to hold to, that would connect us to any history in South Caro . lina at all. I: What wi,11 you do when the ~ime runs out, that no Indians that were on the roll back in~ was it, '62 or '3 ~ . S: It was '63 I'm not sure . I: Is it you:i;understanding that this land is going to revert back to the state of South Carolina? S: I have no understanding of that. I don't know. I have not read the contract or anything. I guess we should read into it, but I have no idea as to what that is, but I'm sure that they would have quite enough for a roll. I: Are you assuming that your . four children could live on the reservation? S: They better. 23

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CAT 53A I: If they want to? S: They better because this is, they're Indians, and as any Indian can move and live on the old reservation, any place they pick. As long as someone else hasn't staked it out for their own. I mean there are some places down there that people have had their old house places, and they want it kept for them. And of course they couldn't keep it if somebody decided they wanted it, but most of them, you know, they regard the other person's opinion, they say, "Well that's where I want to live." I: If a :matter cal!le up concerning that old reservation, who would the state S: I really don't know, we don't have a chief anymore. And I guess they could come to one of the members, you know, one of the mem' hers of the tribe, and have them call a meeting and what not. I: D:td you vote to do away 'With your chief? S: Well see, the chief came under the federal government, that stuff was under the federal government. And when we did away with that, we did away with all the other things that went with, went with the tribe. So we don't have a chief. We have people who say they, they' re the chi.ef, but we don' t have a chief. I: You think then that the chief was only chief as long as the federal government recognized him as a chief? S: Well I,, I think that he was a chief only as long as we recognized as a chief. I: Then you think that the Indians quit recognizing a chief once the old reservation was split? 24

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CAT 53A S: Once the new, once the new reservation was split, yes: Now that, that's the understanding that most Indians have. Now there may be a few that's confused, but as far as most of them are con cerned, the chief and everything, all the tribal things went when that . went. I: Do you think that was good? S: Well I think we need a chief right now, not that we have any affairs to cortduct or anything, but I think it would be good to have one just in case anything ever came up. But otherwise we really don't need one. It would just be, you know, in a name. I: Honorary or something like that? S: Yeah. I: What about a museum of some sort ? S: Well we've had discussions about this, and people 1: want one, or .e.r-1it) some people want one. Now the propheci Ail that goes for the M•J&ev'!'I\ lhtiieaA oroala-be , his right as an ---------------Indian minority. And that belongs to the state of South Carolina ~ ' J: believe for the museum or the historical society or somebody. And they want to get a museum down here. Well now I think that's well and good if the Indians got to . run it, and looked over the affairs of it. Because really, it wouldn't be an Indian thing if they put it down here and everybody else come tn and take over. That wouldn't be what I, not what I think it was. And too, I have my own opinion about it as far as our, it's so close to my heart. And I, I guess I'm backwards. I'm an old Indian I reckon. I'm just 25

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CAT 53A S: kind of backwards in the fact that I like to have my own privacy. I don't care for people to be tramping around, and you know, peeking around looking at me, you know, see what everything's about. And it's just going to be, it would be so crowded over there that I, I don't, I'm not sure that I would want it. I know it would be a good thing, but if it set right on top of my house, I'm not s ' ure. I: Do you think there would be enough things out here to be put in a museum? S: Well I th;i.nk there's some people that have quite a few things. Now whether they would put them in a museum, I don't know. Because most of them a).:'e, there, there's not that much, and the ones that do have, I guess they might be afraid, you know, that something would happen to them. And that's all they have that connects them with the past. I: They would have to have some sort of guard situation or locks or something on the doors. S: It would have to, it would definitely have to have something. Because l~ke I say, I'm not sure that they would want to put theirs in because if, uh, well if you had a history, and you didn't know anything about it, and you just had a few things left, you would want to hold on to it. And that's about all we have, only what's in Robert's and Carrol's. I: What about pottery? S: Well contrary to what's come out in the paper several times, that nobody makes pottery down here, almost every of, everyone of the women do make. They quit for awhile because we went to Cherokee 26

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CAT 53A S: see,, and sold them, and then the shops were so full that they wouldn I t buy anymore you see. And that made it hard to sell. I: I see you have a piece over there now, are you working on that yourself? S: Well now I'm not working on it, I made this last year when we went out to visit Nelson's parents in Utah. And I made a load and took out with us when we _ were there, and I had no problem. In fact, one person bought all, all the pieces of them. And he would go back, these were going back to __________ , and I'm going to make a load and take to -------I: Do you think then that there are -ltia-4'?-who l".'AAf ..g_ ,._,_._ ? S: -Well there are, we have quite a few that make pots, and every one of them, their pots are different. You can look at their pots and you can tell who made them, if you know the people, just by look ~ng at their pots. I: I have had some young people say to me they'd like to know how to make the pottery. And they can see their parents and grand parents doing it you know. S: Right. 1: lrut there's no central location '7-------------------____________ or they don' t have time enough to do it, have you thought about central locations for pottery you _ could sell it to, make it and sell it? S: Well we thought about that one time, but I don't know whether they'd be really that much interested in it or not. The young people these days, -ek, they don't think too much about that you 27

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CAT 53A S: know. They're like most of the other young people. They like they' re music and they like to be on the:, go so much. And it's just a few I think that are, of the young people, that are really interested in it. But if you would get their materials you could go to any one of the ladies and theytd teach you, they'd be glad to. Now there is one thing that I didn't like too well, one time, was that I went to a ceramics class. And this lady, she thought that it would be fun, and it would be nice if the ladies would get together and teach 1 the outsiders how to make pottery. Well I didn't agree with that because of the fact that, that we're Catawbas, our pottery is strictly Catawba. And if we taught everybody else how to make it, what would we have left? We wouldn't have anything. Because we don't have anything else. We don't have any bead work or basket work. All we have is the pottery. And if we taught other people how to do it, then we don't have nothing. So I thought that the best thing would be if we keep it within the tribe. And '
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CAT 53A S: that went up. And it would have gone over fairly well had we continued to go, but we didn't do that. But I'm sure they would have, you know, enjoyed it. But they still, they they basically work in the clay. They don't have, they just use their hands and their knives you know, things like that. And it's no problem for them. I think they enjoy that, making their pots just like this, better even than working with that other stuff. I'd like to say that I'm ,---------thankful. . that I was born an Indian. I'm very greatful to be an Indian. And that's one thing that I want to teach my children, is that they are part Indian, and I don't want them to be ashamed of it. It's nothing to be ashamed of. And I love myfamily, my children. It's like what we say in the Book of Mol:lilOn, I guess those Lamanites, those Indians during that early time lo~ed their children with the dearest lqve. And I think we still have that in our tribe today. It come through all that time, that we do love our children with a different kind of love than most people do. And I'm very thankful to be doing this. I hope that it will help you in some way. I: Well thank you Sherry. I feel that I've just got to make one comment for the record. You may not recall, but when you were a child, I taught you in Sunday school class. And I can remember you as being a very dilligent Sunday school student, a young lady, who even then, had her lessons prepared, and prepared well. So I would like to end on that note, to remember a little bit with you about those days, and what a good student you were. S: Thank you. 29