Citation
Interview with Mr. Daniel Chavis, July 19, 1971

Material Information

Title:
Interview with Mr. Daniel Chavis, July 19, 1971
Creator:
Chavis, Daniel ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:
Language:
English

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Florida History ( local )
Lumbee Oral History Collection ( local )
Spatial Coverage:
Lumbee County (Fla.)

Notes

Funding:
This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

Record Information

Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management:
Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/.
Resource Identifier:
LUM 247 ( SPOHP IDENTIFIER )

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LItP 247A

Page 1.

Interviewee: Danjiel Chavis

Interviwer: Adolph Dial

July 19.1971 mlh



D: This is July 19, 1971, Adolph Dial speaking. I'm here 'in the Burnt Swamp

ccatnunity,Burnt Swamp Township, not too far from the Union Chapel School,

about how many miles is it,Mr. 6 O e- c d 'n Mr. Chavis, a couple of

miles to uh, Union Chapel School. I'm here ;A in the vicinity of viAere

scae of the Lowry boys use to live,uh, and quite a few of themlhang out
,it 1 ( VSA
in this area for one reason or another as we shaEl see in] a few minutes.

I'm here interviewing Mr. Danny Chavis, th, Mr. Chavis, how old are you?

C: Eighty-two.

D: Eighty-two years old and you've lived in this cammmnity ost of your life?

C: Right.

D: Now, I believe h2. your father was a Mr. Amazar Chavis?

C: Right.

D: And who was Mr. Amazar Chavis' father?

C: William Chavis. -...

D: Now William Caavis was a member of the iuh Lowry Gang, the Henry Beea Lowy

Gang, is this correct?

C: Right.

D: Urn, I believe you told me a minute ago something about what happened to

William Chavis. Will you relate that story to re, as your dad told it?

C: w /n- - f ,when .uh my daddy never did even recollect seeing him.

D: Your daddy who was Amazar Chavis...

C: Amazar Chavis and his daddy was named William Chavis,but my daddy never









LUM 247A

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"did recollect seeing his daddy.

D: I see. And you never did hear him say uh what his /) was?

C: NI, I didn't, no I didn't.

D: Uh, did uh Mr. Amazar Chavis,uh, did he uh,help the outlaws out in any way?

I know he was not a, I know he was not a member of the S Y Gang, but did

he ever aid them in any way?

C: He use to nold balls for 'em.

D: Nbld balls ?

C: That's right
any
D: You don't rerreber seeing him imldlballs ir your, late days, do you?|

C: No, I don't.

D: Uh, do you know if he aided them in any other way, like iaybe spending the

night in the shuc nam or something like that?

C: I don't, I don't.

D: Un, do you umin your uh conversation over the years uh with sane of your

uh friends ad your relatives, whidc one of the Lswy, Gang vould you consider

was the most, uh the one to be feared rost, the most fearful one of

the owry Gang?

C: I always thought that Steve Lowry.

D: Do you have any particular reason for feeling that Steve IRwy-Las perhaps

ed-at a irore notorious ran than Henry Bear

C: I always stayed with ny grandmother and my grandfather. I stayed with, them

teh three years and they reported mhe JAI time and again.

D: Now which one of your grandmother and grandfather was that?

C: Old man Hughie Oxendine and Liza Oxendine.









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D: Hughie Oxendine and Liza Qxendine.

C: PiThat's right.

D: Uti, speaking of uh Mr. Hughie Oxendine who was also iy great uncle, isn't

.that right?

C: Right,

D: Um, there wee several of those Qxendine boys, uh, there was iuh Hughie and

And Qxendine and uh, three of these boys Iuh went down to Georgia, what
that
was their nanes? The three w1went to Georgia? Sonny,...

C: Uncle Sonnyvas one and Uncle Henry was one, I don't recall the other one.

D: I believe he was Charles Weste.'

C: I think that was right, I think that's correct.

D: Now uh, back in those days, uh, lots of' people went to down in Georgia.

Why were they going down there?

C: Well, here,yau couldn't geet-ft-get a job at that time, I doubt iE7 if

you ouldjwent out here and got a job at that tiTe for 50 a day. And they
could go down there at -r t - & T 'L 4 W ,

"A" still down in there every two or three, I

say every two or three miles, and they could go down there and get anywhere F

a dollar to a dollar and a quarter a day to dip turpentine or scrape boxes.

D: So rost of the people who left and, went :to Georgia at this time were in the

turpentine business?

C: That's right, that's right, plenty of stills out there, that's all there

was out there, you couldn't find,- you wouldn't have found an acre of land

noeres out there the state of Georia y that, you wouldnthae










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found an acre of land in one spot,it was all turpentine stills.
that
D: Now uh, yes, I noticed sonm of them who went down in Georgia given came

back and they namnd their children after some of the cities in Georgia...
I I
C: 'That's right.

D: I know one fellow's naned Valdosta* IPia and another woman whose name is

Rochelle.

C: That's right.

D: Now, do, do you renmerber the people going down into Georgia working in the

turpentine industry or was that before your time?

C: I recollect 'em working down there. My daddy, he, he drose a wagcn and

Uncle Nelson, he worked at a still and Uncle Bud, he worked at boxes.

D: Mr. Amazar went down and to Georgia too and worked there?

C: Well, yeah, he stayed down there, my daddy stayed in Georgia about fifteen

or twenty year or longer.

D: You were born after he returned?

C: 1, was two weeks when ha he left me and went to Georgia.

D: Is that right?

C: Right.

D: And would he crme home often to see you?

C: No, he didn't came hame at all until he' conr hame to stay.

D: Well, was he uh and your mother parted 'at that tine?

C: No, they both, the whole family,' us, was in Georgia. TA7Ae hoe I ..

D: You went tb Georgia yourself?

C: Yeah, all of us, the whole family.

D: ell, new uh, did you grw up in' Georgia? How old were you when you left?









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C: When I left from there, I was about, when we core to this country, I was

about twelve years old.

D: So you reirerber being in Georgia?

C: Yeah, yeah, I scraped a fe,- scraped a few pines out there.

D: You did? So, then uh, let's see, you're uh eighty-two, so at least, and

this is 1S71, so about 1890, people were out there working in the turpen-

tine industry.

C: That's right, that's right.

D: And even after 1900, sume of them were there after 1900.
> i- be-
C: When they-r working out. there in that turpentine, out there, and they'd
;+
hear tis thunder like we hear the thunder this evening,they wouldn't even

even hold up their heads to see where the cloud was,they'd take their tur-
vu.0r ;f .thL e W ^s
pentine w-ere, tihe7 dipping turpentine.where they dip it,they'd threw it
S'inq bo y&^
down and L<.
down and let out for that shanty,boy, they didn't even hold c their head

to see where that cloud was. Them cyclones down there, they'd sweep every-
ever
thing that would go,but they wouldn't hardlylbe over from, I'd say from

fifty to seveifty-five to a hundred yards wide. Now we have them no end

wide almost.

D: Now un, they uh, well back in that day,; don't you un find that uh,your par-

ents and maybe your grandparents, didn't they have a little more respect for

thunder and lightning than the people have today?

C: Right they, did, right they did. WE wevt, wen we'd always ,we'd always
j+, l be
crawl unde- the bed-we-weve just as cain as we could be when the cloud .)Js

.accning up- when we was out there. Right.









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D: You were taught this?

C: That's right, right, right. C: *"t'

D: So you refeber then, in Georgia, working in the turpentine business D:I

imagine, some people say it was a healthy job. h.

C: Yes. c: r'

D: Now you're eighty.. .,bu'll soon be eighty-two. =d I notice that uh your
CoJ I/c1 lancl
health is good, you've been in the swamps fishing today, down in pck.lar)d

Swamp.

c; Right.

D: And you go about every dayyour wife's home,

C: EVery day. Rabbit hunt all the winter.

D: You rabbit hunt all the winter. r

C: C'ver /,'- /< ooi.', ro/,1 i/ae /)s'iQe I

D: FEll, I notice that you were uh,uh, since I've been here, I noticed that

you siroked, four cigarettes, one right behind the other,lighting cne with

the other.S Now uh, how many cigarettes. you srrke a day?

C: I smoke about four or five packs of cigarettes a day and drink about three

coca-colas, four every day.

D: Four ar five packs?

C: Every day. .

D: What kind?

C: I'm on Chesterfields now.

D: You don't fool with the filters?

C: No, no, no filter.

D: -t never did seem to bother you? I
1 < ~~ ~~~~. .' '









LUM 247A

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C: I never inhaled a drop in iry life unless I'm running in behind my beagles

and fall down.

D: Oh, I was wondering there if you were inhaling those cigarettes. You

don't inhale them?

C: Don't inhale them.

D: Never did?

C: Never did. I'd leave them this morning fishing and go early and come back

after dinner aid not even strike a iatch, one right after another one.

D: Well uh, do you get any joy out of smoking and not inhaling it?

C: Yeah, I d!., I, I couldn't live without iry cigarettes.

D: So you swoke four,inother words, a couple of cartons a week or more?

C: I smoke fohr or five packs every day.

D: Four or five packs every day. WEll, that's quite a bit of smoking, that's

quite a bit of smoking, I'll have to say it is. Now 1, uh, Mr. Chavis,

in, in your young days, well, before we get on that, let's go back to the

Henry Be Lowrgang there, did you ever hear what happened to Henry

io.wyrwhat was the stories told to you?.

C: my granddaddy and ny granrhother say hel died a natural death. That's what
they told ie.

D: Now what would they consider a natural death, do you suppose?

C: I would say a natural death'd be any kind of a sickness or he could've got

accident ad had, a gun fire off and kill him,but they said they just told me

he died a natural death.

D: Now Hughi exendine didn't believe that'he went away, did he?
SNo, no y gradady gran ersy e never did go y.
C: No, no my randdab my grandmother sey he never did go awy. :

f ( .









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D: Did you ever hear where, did you ever hear him say where they thought he

was buried?
nothing about
C: Never did, they never did nentiontthey saylwhere he had been. My grand g *dy
h ac
and my grandmother -a made them a many, a many, a many a cup of coffee.

D: The Lw=G GAng?

C: Yeah.

D: Is that right?

C: Many a cup of coffee.

D: Did they ever spend any night in their shuca ?

C: I wouldn't, if they did, I didn't hear them say so.
do
D: But you' know they'd cone by and get something to eat?

C: Many a cup of coffee and something to eat, a many meals did they give them,

many ones.

D' ich. one of the Iwcry-s)do you know uh?

C: They just said the uTe Gang-I wouldn't say which one. I know Henry

a/c S-- eeJ, was in it.

D: So, they, they knew them.quite well?

C: Right. Yeah, they knew them-they: knew them well-they were good friends,

good 'friends. .

D: Un, as you ok at it today, whether Heriy .Bear X died or whether he went

away, would you consider him just as great a man either way?

C: Yeah, I would, yeah. '

D: Un, you feel that uh, uh, do you feel that Henry Mea towryade a great

contribution to the Indian race? r

C: I think he. did, in my estimation.









LUTM 247A

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D; Yes, I. do too, Now,uh, why do you feel that he made a great contribution?

C: I think he done what he done, I think he had a call to do it and I think

he done it br his l.

D: What do you think his call was?

C: Well, I think he, he was treated wrong and he fust tighktfor his rights.

D: And, uh, do you feel that he helped the entire Indian race following him?

C: i sure do, I think he stood on his own and helped the who&e, entire group.
Jao '4 han/-
D: What do you think would happened to us if Henry hadmen1done what he did?

C: Well, we might have wiped off of the map.

D: Do you think they'd have taken our land, and so forth?'

C: Yeah., they took it anyhow and they took it before and they took everything '-

h c more or less anyhow.

D: So you say he made a good contribution?

C: That's my estimation.

D: When you were dcwn in Georgia there, to the best of your remrerrancei do,

do you recall uh were there] many of our people down there, there many of the

Indians?

C: There's right good, good bit of 'em in there,right good bit of 'em.

D: Did they associate mostly together all the time or did they...

C: Yeah, they had, yeah, they we Uncle Bud had one die and is buried out hhere

and Uncle Bud would go, as long as his health ie good, he'd go out there

to that graveyard, and we, I had a brother die out there-his name is Jesse

and uh,he died out there.

D: You had a brother Jesse te die in' Georgia?

C: qo die dil in Georgia.









LUM 247A

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D; And he was buried there?

C: Right.

D: What, where were you um, ium, where um, when you were down in Georgia, in

what part of Georgia, do you recall the town you were near?
C ion gP'^yr lc C/d y'In
C: G-Cai n, not too far from Enas, Georgia-we was out there in Griage-



D: In ..

C: Yeah.
F)'T2.$ / D: Not too far from -eal. And um, why uh., wellhou spoke of scne who were,

who were buried there. Do you recall any who were brought back here when

they died?

C: I don't recall none that was uh ...

D: In other words, it was too expensive to try to get them back here by train?
4 icln'
C: That's right, that's right, that' right. They didn't have no have ro am-

bulance and things then. They didn't have no way then, if they did, I know

nothing of it, they didn't have no way:,of embalming people like they got now.

D: Uh, how did you uh, how did you go to Georgia or you dcn't renmaber your

trip thereyou went when you were two weeks old, I believe you said t t howY

iho w did you return? n


ol I t:-
J row-
C: We, we went on a train and came on a train. IV daddy dew a two-horse wagon
^*-^ai dro E/\
fran here to GEorgia and &_rw a tyo horse wagon back.fron, from Georgia

back here.

D: That's what you called a train? 2

C: Y-7' no. When we went out there,we wenE on a train, but I said my daddy

"
______]








LUM 247A

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in his going out there, he drove a two horse wagon here to Georgia and

then he drove one back from here to Georgia.

D: And then got his family and went back on the taain?

C: That's right, that's right, that's right.

D: Went down there and made him somn money, came back and got his family...

C; He didn't have enough. mrney to com he hae tith most of them and 4e go down

there and somebody had to send at them. He had to send out at Uncle Benny.

D: Is that right? Now, golly, it looks to ie like all the people went to Georgia.

Now -hu, what were same of the,where were some of the other pla, do you know

of any other aces back then they went away and worked and what did they do?

C: I wouldn't say along then ,not at that time, now they all over the world,

but along then, that was more or less the only place you could h0 ar li o ;

-e go to, was Georgia, now they are over the whole world.

D: I see. Yes, they've scattered out quite a bit. UH, did ulhyou happen to go

into World War One?
b r
C: No, w if it had lasted three more days, I'd a been in it. I

didn't have a thing to do but get-up and go, it'd been three more days, I'd

have been gone. I had four brothers in "it.

D: Not many of our people haaseibeen away u. before that time and except to g96to
had
Georgia to work in turpentine, have'they?
-t1 c' 'ci.
C: That's right. -eraef3be a still there every three or four miles and then

their niggers oaaibe and my daddy ic k 'L.....' .....and they'd

kill a niggerlere and if he went over t*wsk at.that other still, three or

four miles, he was e I f r t, .man wouldn't even let him come get him.

D:. Was that right? i









LIM 247A
Paig 12, ll L


C: That's right.
D: ?Who wouldn't let him care get him?
a H'd
he man that he went .to a 1rking for different still. t go out to the other

still-that man wouldn't let 1as came on-&et ana get him.

D: Were there any of the, were there tS many black Ten killed over...?

C: They kill one about every Saturday night gambling.

D: Now did the Indians associateA'ith them any and gamble and so forth when they

were d7wn there?
No
C: Naw, no, not that I know'd of.

D: Y":all Iore or less uh stayed in your own little clans?

C: Yeah, what -iiey was, what, what, what Indians we had out there was a nice

group, was lhcle, we had Uncle uh Benny and William Chavis and his wife was

nared Avery and his girl was naired Molly and Mlly was gsela marry

"was ge&]aimarry ma rr ./, / r and ii,Uncle William, he'd sit in

the front' door with a Winchester, rifle and Avery, she'd sit in the other

door with a double barrel muzzleloader wh buckshot, was gcnna kill Buck

if he ever come to get the girl. And they was sitting in there and time

core to go to bed, the yard was all paled around with high paiing-- Well,

they s, Uncle William said "Mlly,4let's go to bed" and they went around

to lock for that gal / good G-d, she had crawled out e that back door and
her and that fellow. had been married two or three. hours and they was sitting

there with the gns cocked.

D: Did any of our people uh mrurdar anyone while they were dowan there as you

recall?

C: not at that period of tirr,but before then or later,

Old man Hfghie-Oxendine killed er uh one out there.









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D: Alack man or a ...

C: No, he called an Indian and was sent to the penitentiary eM -'-c a- 7 .

he was sent to the peentiaxylifetime, he oe to this uny and they
hi's
got him -he was eent to the penitentiaryllifetime.

D: And L2=- Oxendine was sent to the pen?

C: The penitentiary]lifetime, yeah.

D: After he returned home, they picked him up?

C: That's right, that's right, that's right.
/ D: Cise Oxendine?

C: Lei'Oxendine.

D: And you can't recall the man's name that he murdered?

C: He was a Jones.

D: A Jones?

C: Yeah, a Jones. I don't recall his first name, but he was a Jones, I'm sure.

D: Do you uh. know anything about the incident of uh uh, BArnabas, Barnabas

they called him, uh who was supposed. to have been killed by the Oxendine

boys and then they left him, went "to Gedrgia-did this have something to

do with them going to Georgia? Want to tell me about this first?

C: I, I wouldn't know about that. I wouldn't knwc about that.

D: You don't recall that particular ihciderit?/:He was the first man buried in

the Prospect Cemetary and uh, I'll tell you the story about it sometime.

LU, Mr. Chavis, um, we were interrupted there with the telephone. Now uh,

oming back' to our conversation, ih you) young days, what were your young

days like? ;What did you do for entertaiTment and so farth? Just describe

your young years to me the best yoi can.
U i. ; .- ,









LUi 247A

Pace 14., tmlh


C: I use to have just as nice a horse and buggy as hit the road and there wasn't

many Indian people that had it and I enjoyed f1.-that horse and buggy, and

we'd have ball games and co hud ing and candy-pulling and...

D: What was the candypulling?

C: We'd have this here old, they use to have these cane flA's5 and they'd make

syrup and we'd take that syrup, you know, and pull candy and'- i45 /;'P be

good candy.

D: You'd make candy?

C: Yeah, we'dnake a good candy. We'd eat our own candylwe wouldn't put it on
no
salenor nothing, we'd just pull it and roll it and roll it and then it would

be good.

D: Did you go to church as a boy? ihat church did you first remember going to?

C: '-,-/', J5fAJ &down yorder on =mong #irr> hbtCnt.
/ .
D: /Ce ec/, Branch.

C: /e c Branch Church.

D: Now, you didn't live down there, did you?

C: Yeah. we lived down there in a little place called Hogdine and ,/ //' / f .-r .,. I

we stayed there.

D: I see. 'iat was the first church in this community you went to?

C: First church in this community I went to was Chapel out there.

D: Ah, I remeniber once the uh church was burned at Chapel over a church dispute-

uh, I'm not interested in who did it, but uh, what was the uh dispute that

caused the'church to burn?

C: I never did exactly learn but they burn it and way back there now,they stil
? ri c /-hg. /n e: !. ,, /. aA-burning up the depot up here at......
(I c .? -( J i h e ( e i q .1









LUI 247A

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and they come then what you would call'an FBI man there and.Uncle Andy was

running a blacksmith ship and he come, that man come down there and worked

with Uncle Andy in the blacksmith. shop, a white man, he came down and

worked with him, with him for two or three mrmths and he finally got ahold

of sonm stamps or something another They send Uncle Andy to the penitenti-

ary for that.

D: And did he pull time?

C: Yeah,yeah, yeah.

D: And he returned later?

C: That's right, that's right.

D: Now you spoke a while ago -f before we started recording,about how tough

the boys were back then and ufou, will you relate to me the incident where

one went away so he wouldn't have to kill someone?

C: That was Uncle Sonny and John 16-clea r killed Uncle Andy, Sonny, he just

left this country to keep from killing John o c k/
Andy had a son, his name was Henry and we don:tknow whether he is dead

or living. Tan and Neil might have went out there to see him and uh, that

is Uncle Andy's boy, the only boy that he had and he left this country

as a teen-age, he might have been around about eighteen,or twenty, twenty-

one years old. He left this county to keep from killing Jchn.

D: In other words, they figured if they lived here, one would have to go....

C: Tnat's right, right, one would have to go. And I don't know whether Uncle

Henry's ,. ousin Henry, I don't khow whether he is living or dead.now Tom

nor none of the rest of them don't know.

D: Well, do you think that uh, you think the boys back in that day were a little









LUM 247A

Page 16. mlh


B:raver than boys are today?
C: I )00( rU- said about that part of it,I mean, along then, in that

day, I'd imagine you could pick up a,1 out a'hundred men, out of them hun-

dred men, I doubt if you'd find over half a dozen men that would kill you.

Now, anybody today and his brother iwed kill you. Anybody kill you now.

D: ..I was thinking maybe it was just the opposite.

C: No sir. You could net have found a dozen men, Uncle Andy 4di just as scared

of as if he was a .__ ... Nobody messed with that

man-they was scared of him. Now,I'd grant it there ain't nobody scared of

nobody. Anybody kill you now, buddy. .They., kill you right now if they

know you had fifteen or twenty dollars on you before you got home-they kill

you for it, They wouldn't do it back then.

D: Did you ever participate in any log... logrolling?

C: Yeah, we use to over there cut eighty, about eighty-five acres of land over

there and we'd have them logs rolling ad roll them, that's the only way

it was. /4M,,>'9 t' ro///, 7 A 0,,--fj-- oy,

D: Who helped, you?

C: Atlas Scott, all bunch of them Sootts, 3nd bunch.....

D: In other words, did you ever have a get-together and the women cook and

logrolling....?

C: Right, right, yeah, yeah.

D: Touldn't charge any nmney? ^7A+ ep a 0 h the'r .
a
C: T!at's right, That right, many a orie of them.

D: In o their words, it was a large oooperdtive effort?

C: That's rihht. Right.


,! ;i










LUt 247A

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D: What about uh bamraising?

C: Yeah, we'd have all of them bamnaisings, we'd have a cornhudcing, and we'd

have a liquor there and you wouldn't get a drink of liquor,:'along then you

had these big coizshucking, you wouldn't get a drink of liquor until you

found and you were shucking that corn,you'd find a red-yellow corn, when youc
-4 inr c
&fead that )d-yellow corn, you gotta take a liquor.

D: And scaetires you could get to kiss the prettiest girl there too?

C: That's right, that's right, right, right.

D: You didn't have many red ears of corn in that?

C: There you g t maybe shuck two or three eas before you came to one.

D: I don't know what they would do with this hybrid corn today, they'd never

get that drink, would they?

C: No, no.

D: What did they keep that liquor in? Wht was that they called that container?

C: That nans was Jinryjohns. '

D: Jiirnjohns? '

C: Yeah.

D: -hy'd they call it a jimryjohn?

C: I don't know, that was just a name ~for iE. I ain't drunk a drop of liquor,
fo. wher-e.-
I ain't drunk no liquor since it got th6-wla you could order it and that's,

we use to have to order our liquor fran' RiTchmnd, Virginia.

D: And did you drink a lot in your young days?

C: No, I never did, I wasn't, I wasn't badtfor it, I got drunk a few times in

life, not bad.

D: Well un, back in that day, you know today you don't find many of our people
!: ]
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LUM 247A

Page 18. nlh


drinking wine, but back in that day,didn't most of them drink wine and cider?

C: Yeah, I, mry grandmother and granddaddy when I 'stayed at them three years

and they'd have it on the breadfast table and dinner table, every,everytiri

you went eat there, that wine on 'the table.

D: Is that right?

C: Yeah, but we.-wouldn't get drunk off of it.

D: What was education like in your young days?
p P4 s/ and was,
C: They'd have about four months school. aAn Steve Hammnds was teaching and
had P.
teaching at Joe ar63//e1 5 and we f about eight, about seven/ eight miles

to go there and back and the weather would be so rough, we wouldn't have)

out of them four rmnths, we wouldn't have elgE mronths e4 school.

D: So uh, what education you received you uh, you did it on your own?

C: That's right, right, ribht.

D: Now you've been i pretty successful farmer what, do you attribute that to?

C: Well, I was always a hard working'boy,n ver did do nothing but farmhand I

always worked, tried to accumulate a living, and so I got a pretty good

start now,I got a hundred and tweity-file acres of land here in this here

site.

D: Um, how lorg have your people beeni in this community? How many generations

could you co back? 1

C: 'Bout threeor four.

D: In other words, now you're un, do you know what William Chavis' father's name

was?

C: No, no, no.

D: Do you know what Hughie Oxendine' father's name was?

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LTM 247A

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C: I never did heat being said. I might, if I did, I forgot it.

D: How lang you think these people been around here or -uh, did you ever hear

any oldtiners say where they thought their greatgrandparents or some of them

care from?

C: Up there at the Oxendine graveyard, they got''' '' but they
L*P bWr,.4, ^rL '
didn't that ____ there tf-a ap there, and) same of them things

ta& u there oer a 'hundred and fifty'years, but they ain't got no name on,

on 'em1 17Jeu rdlnA'f hLvo, +fJel2 bur)r't ?o fi-olb$ s^fO

D: when do you think, when do you think, yes I know, when do you think that uh

when do you think that uh,uh cerretary was started? Do you have any idea?

C: Not the least, not the least.

D: Did you ever hear um Mr. Hughie Oxendin6 say whether it was there when he

was a boy or not?

C: I don't recall that, I don't recall that.

D: And where was Mr. Hughie born, do you recall?

C: I don't recall that.

D: Now, Mr. Chlavis, you're a LuTbee Indian. Are you quite proud to be Indian?

C: I enjoy it-and I like it fine.

D: ULh, you would take this in preference tb being anything else?

C: Right.

SD: Uh, don't you think in recent years uh, that uh, people are stressing

their identity mrre and do you feel this is good?

C: Right. Yes; & t

D: Did you get to attend the Fourth of July celebration over in ...?

C: Yeah, I was right there.



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LUM 247A

Page 20. mlh



D: What'd you tink of that?
c: ;it, 4- I
C: I enjoyed it,like ; -i- In. C

D: So you think it has a place?

C: Right, right.

D: New uh, you helped your dad lots on the farm and so forth and so on, and uh,

do you recall any uh, uh interesting incidents as you worked with him that

happened during your boyhood days?

C: I don't recollect any ,no,no.

D: Well uh, tell ne about the uh, tell me about the uh the story you told me

just a minute ago about the horsesin the river.

C: a fellow driving the kerosene wagon, X was three mules pullag

that kerosene, one in the middle and two on each side. And they'd broken

the bridge there, and them mules was ugre ing -the man, he couldn't swim

but he happened to be looking up to get out was Adriving it and my daddy

took his pocket knife and went down andIcut the harness off of every one of

them mules 8nd old Shuss McCloud give him five gallons of kerosene for it.

D: He saved the mules and he got five gallons of kerosene?

C: ScaTbody cl&ited he got five hundred dollars-each. one of them mules then was

valued a, them three mules was valued at eighteen hundred dollars and he

went down and saved every one of them mnles and all he got was five gallons

of kerosene.

D: How long ago was that, do you knao about cs?. ?ta" e

C: I would say that has been bbout, it had to be about seventy, sixty, seventy

years ago.

D: And you weaviith him at that time? n
A r

.. .______, .; ________b __ __ .










LUM 247A

Page 21. mlh

C: No, I wasn't with. him, no, no.
OA
D: You were not with. him on that, that day?

C: No, no.

D: In other words, he was delivering oil just like you deliver oil today with

the truck?

C: That's right, the mules was pulling it.

D: What'd people use oil for then, just mostly their lamps I guess?

C: Lanps and kerosene lamps and things and all. When we was out there in Georgia,
cbin cA es
had a little bitty lamp iy wife, iry mother was in there killing 6eme-s

off, off of the bed, and uh, she turned it over an one of them there little

bitty youuguns and my daddy took their kenosene, I mean he took a quilt

and smothered. her an ut her out, but she .stayed in bed for months and months

and months f-ter that.

D: .




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Full Text

PAGE 1

----;---,~ 1 Lt.:c•l 247A Page 1. Interview:=e: Dar;t,!.iel Chavis ..:.,; Intervi,wr: A:iolph Dial July 19.1971 rn1h D: This is July 19, 1971, Adolph Dial speaking. I'm here 'in the Bumt Swa:rrp canmunity ,Burnt Swa:rrp Township, not too far ran the union Chapel School, about hew :many miles is it,Mr. Oy.,,zAd ,l'l e.,. , Mr. Olavis, a couple of miles to uh, Union Chapel Scbool. I'm here J,iE,.. in the vic:inity of where ')}~ u,ld, sane of the IMry boys use to live, uh, and quite a few of ~1hang out . (,VI II . Jt,lS' in this area for cne reason or another as we saeH. see. in J a few minutes •. I'm here interviewing Hr. Danny Chavis, uh, Mr. Chavis, how old are you? C: Eighty-two. D: . Eigh.trtwo years old and you've lived in this carmrunity rrost of your life? C: Right. D: C: D: C: D: Now, I believe -uh your father was_ a Mr. Aroazar Chavis? Right. A"ld who was .Mr. Amazar Chavis' father? William dlavis. D.,. , ~, ,... . '1. . .:t1.~coJ :;t: l\0/i William Caavis was a IIl=Ilber of the uh 1J:Mry G:mg, the Hen:cy Ir::mry' Gang, is this correct? C: Right. D: Um, I believe you told ne a minute _ago sarrething about what happened to William Chavis. Will you relate that sto:i:.y to ne, as your dad told it? C: _•f/. ____ .z __ . t __ .v_c._-r._. -f___ t,_ __ !_ __ ,when -uh my daddy never did even recollect seeing h.un. D: Your daddy who was Amazar Chavis C: A-rrazar Chavis and his daddy was naned William Cfurvis ,but It!{ daddy ne'V"=>-r . ! ' I l. ' ' I ! '

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LU-1 247A Page 2 m1h . did recollect seeing his daddy. D: I see. And you never dlid ~ar him say uh. what his e.;,,r, cJ_ was'? C: !-~9, I didn't, no I didn't. D: Ua, did uh 1,1r. .Aroazar Chavis, uh, did he uh,help the. outlaws out in any way? Lou1 r;; c._ . I knew he was not a, I know he was not a lmiti:ler of the~ Gang~ but did I . he ever aid them in any way? C: He use to :rrold balls for , em. D: 1'bld balls ? C: . 'lbat's right . . any D: Y~ dcp ';t r~r seeing hiin f1Dl'11 balls yor. late days, do you? I I t , C: No, I oon't. D: C: D: C: D: C: Uh, do you know if he aided them in any other ~;, like niaybe 'spending the night in the shu~am or sorrethihg like. that? . I con't, I don't. Um, ao you um:in your uh conversation over the ~ars uh with sarre of your . . 1 -~ )1? : ,,... ' Lt-->-,,,(.,,.uh friends aid your :relatives, which one_ of the ~,Gang would you consiaer was thenost, uh the one to be feared ' IrDSt, the IrOSt fearful one of . . . J_r ~,i(:'~! the ~.....,Gang'? .. t :-. , I,•::'" .C' I always thou.t. that Steve I.f:Mr;i~. LvwA.;-C. D:> you have any particular mason for feeling that Steve pe:r:haps { ,, ,, I I'"' ! ,. (3Yr.n1:', .. d.r-:~ a nbm notorious nian than Heru:y ~icMry?. •. t}._c,rc, I stayea/ with-. them I always stayed with Itrl grandrother and my grandfather. three years and they reported rnefAa+ tme and .again. D: New ,;:1hic.~ one of your . grandrother and ,grandfather was that'? c: Old :man Hughie OXendine and Liza Oxendme.

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LUM 247A ;Page 3. 1rl1h D: Hughie _ Oxendine and Liza Oxendine1 f/1hb C: 1'lhat' s right. D: U:1.., speaking of uh. Mr. Hughie OXendine who was also 'Irr;/ great uncle, isn't that right? C: D: C: D: C: C: Right. we. r"v . um, tr.ere wee saveral of those Oxendine boys, uh, there was u.11. Hughie and kid~w Oxendine and uh, three of these boys uh. went down to Georgia, what that was their narres? 'Ihe three 'iliS91we.nt to ~rgia? Sonny, Uncle SonnyW1.S one and Uncle Henry was one, I don't recall the other one. I believe he was Charles West~") I think that was right, I think that's oorrect. Now uli, back in those days, uh, lots of people went to down in Georgia. Why were they going dC1Nil there? hoilwer.+ c, u.+ud.. 9o+ , . Well, here,yau oouldn 't ~-get, a job at that tine, I doubt if ri '3 ,e, . you oouldJ lt1ent out here and got a' job at that ti.nE for 50 a day. .And they oould god~ there at ~~t,t~~~~oe..s'f/J/'•"t.hc.rt: .T},t,~ 1 0-C 1 havc.. ;{-f,upy1-l1;~ ;; still down in there every two or three, I say every twoO:. three miles, and !they oou1d go dCMn there and get anywhere fro..... a dollar to a dollar and a quarter a day_ to dip turpentine or scrape boxes. >,erc..D: So rrost of the people who leftJ and1 v.-ent 'to Georgia at ~s tine were in the t1..ll'.peiltine business? C: That's right, that's rilJh.t, plenty of stills out there, that's all there was out there, you coulan' t find,you wouldn •t have found an acre of land ' nowheres o,it there in the state of Georgi.a ha:tdly that, you w::>uldn' t, have

PAGE 4

Ll:J.L'l 247A Page 4. :mlh found an acre of land in on.e spot,itwas all turpentine stills. that D: Now u..1., yes, I noticecqsorre of them who went davn in Georgia c";en carre back and they narred their clti.ldren after scree of the cities in Georgia I I I C: 'Ihat' s right.. D: I know one fellc:w's naned Valdostalfll Ii:'1:eliM and another woman whose narre. is Rodlelle. , C: That's right. D: Nav, do, do you rerrerrber the people going da-m. into Georgia wo:rt-..ing in the ' turpentine indust:r:y or was that before your t:i.ne? I C: I recollect 'em working do.-m there. My" daady, he, he droae a wagon and Uncle Nelson, he woiked at a still and Uncle Bud, he_ worked at boxes.' D: C: D: C: D: C: i I) Mr'. 1imazar went do;.m to Georgia too and worked there? Well, yeah, he stayed davn there, :reydaddy stayed in C?eorgia about fifteen or twenty year or longer. r.. You were bom after he retumed? , oldI,I. was : two weeks7 when~ he left :rre and went to ~rgia. Is that right? Right. l D: And would he o:me hOire often to see you? c: No, he didn't carre harre at all until he 1 a:me hare to stay. D: 1tlell, was he uh and your nother parted ,at that tine? _ C: No, they both, the whole family, us, was in ~a. ,A(!_, who /12. .. ' D: You went :tb Georgia yourself? C: Yeah, all 'Of us, the whole family. D: Well, no:~ uh, did you grcM up in 1 Ce.o_rgia? HoW old were you when you left? I I ! I ,-, 1:: F r r --------------------------------------------

PAGE 5

LUM 247A Page 5 •. mlh c: When I left from there, I was about, wnen we cx::irre to this count:ry, I was about tvrel ve years old. D: So you rerreJrber being in C'e~rgia? C: Yeah, yeah, I scraped a few, scraped a few ~in.es out theJ;e. D: Yau did? so, then uh, let's see, you're uh eighty-bro, so at least, and thls is li71, so about 1890, r:eople were out them ~rld.ng in the turpen. ' ' tine industl:y. C: ~t•s :right, that's :r:ight. D: And even after 1900, sarre of them \-.-ere there after 1900. ,' ' >cl, be.. C: When they,--i!C) 7 J worldng out. there in that tuJ:pentine~ out there, arid they'd ;f hear B:s thunder like we hear the thunaer this evening, they wouldn't even even hold up t..1.eir heads to see where the clou:1 was,they'd take their tur o UfL.r ; f f he, '-f Wo.5 :p2nt.L""le where, thei:rjdippmg turi;:entine .where they dip it,they'd threw it . . t,t. t} in9 bo yl'..J, down and .. , L< 5 .. sc:t:a r)'.P_ f)\:i-:f it:) :,TF t,>,:i il:'rt .e, ,they'd thrcM it .. '-i I i I down and let out for that shanty ,boy, they didn't even hold "t:=.? their head u.f. to see wbe:re that cloud was. 'Ihem cyclones rovn them, they"d sweep eve:ryever tlring that would go,but they wouldn't harolylbe aver from, I'd say f:ram fifty to sevemt,y-five to a hundred yards wide. Now we have them no end wide aJ.rrost. D: Natl um, they uh, wel~ back in that oay/ don't you um find that u.~,your par ents and maybe your grandparents,didn't! they have a little nore respect for thunder and ligh.tningthan the pe0ple have tcxlay? r ti I\ C: Right they 0 did, right they did. I-E ~, W!!e1'I we'd always 1 \<.'e 1 d ahiays .i"'.s+ b~ . crawl unaer the bed-\.u -.:em just bs ca:rln as we oould he Wleil the cloud vJJs . aooming upJwhen we was out there.,. Righ.1:t~

PAGE 6

LUM 247A Page 6. m1h You were taught t.1.i.s? C: That's right, right, right. c,: /C.Je/rt". D: So you rerrerrber then, in Gaorgia, wo:ddng in the tu:q?entine busL'"less7{):I irr.agine, sorre people sey it was a healthy job. . ;d. . ,,, Yes. ci: ri,,;o• [,', 1hcd D: Naw you•re~ghty f,%u 1 ll soon be eighty-two)~d I notice that uh your . ,)o()lf' 'J R,c/i }ahd .$ health. is gcod, you've 1:een.Jm the swarrps fishing today, davn m :ni.ek1arf8 Swamp. C: Right. D: A'"ld you go about ewry day, your wife's •. I le C: EVery day. Rabbit hunt all the winter. [) ,.. D: You rabbit hunt allJthe wmter. r D: 1~11, I notice that you were uh, uh, since I've been here, I noticed that you smoked, four cigarettes, one right behind the other,lighting c:ne with the other.:~ Now u.11, hcM :aany cigarettes• you sm:ke a day? C: I srroke about four or five packs of ciga:rettee a dayanddrink about three ccx:;~las, four every day. D: Four. ar five packs? C: Every day. D: v-mt kind? I . C: I'm on Che-sterfields now. D: You con 't fool with the filters?: l< C: 'No, no, no filter. I r. D: M1 1~1 . . -it never did seem to bother you? 1 , r 'I f. .l r i I ! fl '

PAGE 7

LUM 247A Page 7. mlh' C: I never inhaled a drop in ITU" life unless I'm l:'Uilru.!lg in behind rey beagles and fall dam. D: Oh, I was wonc1ering don't :i.nhale them? . there if you were .inhaling those cigarettes. You C: Ion' t inhale them. D: Never did? C: Never did. I'd leave them ti.us noming afishing and go early and oorre back after dinner aid not even strike a :rratch, one right after another one. D: Well uh, do you get any joy out of srroking and not .inhaling it? do~S . C: Yea:.t-i, I~ I, I a:>uldn't live withoulf~ cigarettes. , G. "'"',_,f\e 1 . D: So you s:m:>ke four ,mother words,J a couple of cartons a week or no.re? \ I c: I srrn'!re four or five packs every day. D: Four or five pac.1 ' i ,..,

PAGE 8

' LUM 247A Page 8. m1h D: Did you ever bear whe:re, did you ever hear hhn say where they thoU3"ht he was buried? nothing about , C; Never did, they never did Irention;theY saylwhere he had been. My gr.m.clr::.ddy haJ and lT\Y grandrrother made them a many, a many, a DanY a cup of coffee •. l~ :-Jc'• .• D: The GAng? C: Yeah. b: Is that right? C: Many a cup of coffee. D: Did they ever spend any night in theirshu~? C: I wouldn't, if they did, I didn'thear'them sa:y so. D: 1 do . But youi kna'1 they'd by and get sorrething to eat? 0 C: .Many a cup of coffee and sorrething to eat, a roany1m:als did they give them, I!1.any ones. l , ' . , " s ,_ . ... D ,, . C: Which one of the I.7:>Wryls ,ao you know uh? . ' . , ) , I' . ~wR,~ . They just said the-~ Gang-I wouldn't say which. one. ii/rel 5-!-eu~ . was in .it. : I . 11nc." ' D: So, they, they knew them,_quite well'? c: Right. Yeah, they knew them-theyl knee them well-they were good friends, D: C: D: ,:-, ....... 1.1 ("'. ,. ' .[~)'.-••'/\\.~ I ••~4-''> ' . . . ~ •. G,o rttgood "friends. Um, as you bok at it today, whether Hertty died or whether he ~t away, would you a:msider him just: as great a man either way? 1 Yeah, I would, yea... Um, you feel that uh, uh, do you ~eel that Heru:y "Beat}'.tmi:f..:_niade a ~at oontributibn to the Indian race? ' 1 C: I thin.~ he~ di.d, in nv estimation. I I .j t

PAGE 9

Lu."'1 247A Page 9. mlli D; ie~, I. do too, Now,ub., why do you feel tnat he 1Tlade a great contribution? "''"'-:... ' C: I think he dcne what he done, I think he had a call to do it and I think {\_ ' ., t I D: C: D: C: D: C: D: . r I C{'1'f.$ he done it :or his What do you think -rhis call was? fo tA.rflrf . Well, I th.ink he, he was treated wrcng and he just ~1for his rights. And, u.;., do you feel that he helped the entire Indian :rare following him? I sure do, I think he stood on his am and helped the whoee, entire groq;.>. hav~ '-1 hovLWhat d:> you think w0u1a.qhappensd to us if Henry hadrnee1done what he did? \~t" Well, we might have ,,wiped off of the map. Do you think they'd have taken our land 1 and so forth?' C: Yea..., they took it anyhow and they tooK: it before and they took evezything /A.,'0 h i4 cl nore or less anyhow. D: So you say he made a good contribution? C: That's :rrq estimation. D: When you were da-m in Georgia there, to the best of your rerrerob;c~--ice; do, vt--r•f do you recall uh were there] many of ou:ri people dam. there, there many of t:b..e Indians? tud !;. a, C: There'-s)righ.t good, good bit of 'em in tbere,right good bit of 'em. D: Did t..~y associate rrostly together all ithe t.i.JTe or did they ov'i: \\.Cl'e,, . C: Yeah, they had, yaah 1 they we >Uncle Bud :had one die and is buried out bhe:re ' " . D: C: I.U as and Uncle Bro. would go, as long as his health. i,e. good, he'd go out there to that graveyzrrd, and we, I had a brother die out there-his nan-e is Jesse and uh,he filed out them. C."-""'S IJ.)i, 0 You had a brother-Jesse(\~ die inJ Georgia? \)1 r , ....... .JI) J die; die:lin Georgia.

PAGE 10

LUM 247A Page 10 mlh D I .And he was buried there? C: Right. D: What, where were you um, urn, where um, when you were down in Georgia, in what part of Georgia, do you recall the town you were near? : . C: CI 'J yf-on r,rz..cr 0 /c/ Cl a vfor; . Gi.aigstow.n, not too far from .E3tdnwe, Georgia4'v1e was out there in C: Yeah. i::,+z .. c;~n lc-l D: Not too far from F.i,t,ohgaJe, And um, T.tlh.y 'Uh, we1J/4ou spoke of scr:re who were, w1'..o -were buried there. Do you recall any who were brought back hem when they died? C: I don'. t recall none that was uh D: In other words, it was too expensive to try to get them back here by train? I . f},(!~ icl/) '+ C: That's right, that's right, that's right. '!'hey didntt have no~ha-ve ho ambulance and things then. 'Ihey didn't have no ".-.-ray then, if they did, I knCM nothing of :cit, they didn't haw no way,, of e:rrbalrl.ng people like theyi got nCM. , . , . : I .• D: Uh, hew did you uh, hcM did you go to Geol:gia or you doo't rerrerrber your . . C.: '/25 trip the~you went.when you were -two weeks old, I believe you' said1: Eiit hew y:, l,.I ho w did }'GU retu.m? :1 olro~ C: We, we went on a train and oorre on a train. 1' daddy~ a blo-horse wagcn ~C:."' cJrorlLfran here to GEorgia and,..~ a two ho~e wagon back..:fran, from Georgia back here. 1 D: That's what~ you called a train? C: ~:no. When we.want out there,we wen on a train,, but I said rqy daddy

PAGE 11

LUM 247A Page ll. mlh in his_ go~g c-i:t -i::he.re I he drove a two fiorse ~~on here to Geo~ia and . then he drove one bad<:. from here to Georgia. D: ,.And then got his family and went back on the taain? C: 'Jflat's right, that's r_ight, that's right. D: \':.ent cown there and naae him sane :rrDney, carre back an~ got. -his family. C; He dicn 't have enough nx:ney to canB InrE with.nost of them and~ go da-m D: C: D: C: D: C: there and sorrebody had to send at them. He had to send out .e::I: Uncle Benny. Is that right? No;v, golly, it looks to rre like all the people ~t to Georgia. Now u"t, what were sane of the,where 'Were sone of the other pla, do you know of any other p.aces back then they went away and wol:ked and what did they do? I ~:oulan 't 'Say along the."l ,not at that tine, nCM tbey f~l over the world, but along then, that was rrore or less tfie only place you could h.ea, h.Ji ofthcm ;r1 . a JI . . {:-ago to, was Georgi.a, now they ar:eJover the whole world. ~A I see. Yes, they've scattered out quite abit. tlH, did ~you happen to go " futo World War One? b~ . No, wha~ if it 1had lasted three mre days, I'd a been in it~ I I ~ . ,":J"' didn't _have a tlling to do but get 'up and go it'd been three nore days, I .. 'd have been gone. I had fo:m: brothers in 3 it. h;; L . r"''~ li;~,r:, Not many of our :i;:eople J;i.a;.eJbeen cr.vay uft before_ that tine and except to ~to had . Georgia to wol:k in turpentine, haw '!they? -t )-,u c ' cl. . . ~t' s right. 1111E~lbe a still there evezy three or fo:nr miles and then __ 9rt1rr!Jl1/77 their niggers oace:i:aw~ and nw dadcy r::s_ ic.kiict and they'd 1 kill a nigger rere and if he 'W'ent over 6; 1.0:ac. at. that other still, tln:ee or ,hes t.. mc.n four miles, he was c I e 11 r.( . the-.:rnan wouldn't even let him care get him. D: . was that right?

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l l \ l j l i \ _.,,. LlI'i 247A . mlh. C: D: That's right. ' I . I I Who wouldn rt let him carre_ get' him? . The :man that he . a H~) J.. _ _ went .. to wo~g for different still, be go .out to the other I I I . . 011r.rt~rt, still-that man wouldn~ t let cama ana get hlln. D: Were thereiitlily of the, were there 1!A many black-mm killed over ?. C: 'lhey kill one about every ~aturday night agambling. D: NO"d did the Indians associatel1ith them any and gamble and . so forth when they •. _\ . . . were do;vn there? No C: i:, no, not that I !mow'd of. D: Y'all nore or le_ss uh stay~ in your o.vn little clans? C: Yeah, -what 1:hey was, what, what, what Indians we had out there was a nice group, was Ulcle, we had Uncle uh. Benny and William Chavis and his wife was D: , I Cjt>1/!7 -,0 narred Avery and his girl was narred M:>lrly and M:>lly was 9EafTa many . . 50 ii) J.-fo A .. .,~~.._,~+~~-j was ge.t1.a]rnarey OU l../v d, rr _::__ and uh,Uncle William, he'd sit in the front 1 door with a Winchester. rifls and Avery, she'd sit in the other c3r.i\ I 1 !lc,K 1.,v,\\., door with a double barrel muzzleioade~ ~ifuckshot, _ was gc:iina kill Bu:k if he ever corre to get the girl. And they was si:ting in there and t:iire pd I, /11,5 cx::me to go to bed, the yard was all paled around with high pail:h.gs-, vlell, . I l.,c s a I cl, \,s,: IC.41 t ft \ \,• they~, Uncle William said "M:>lly,f1et's go to beel" ~d they went around . ~;--tl . . . a-r to ~look for that gal; 1good G-d, she had crawled out~ that back door and her and that fellow. had been married two or tlu:ee. hours and they was sitting there with the gms cockedo Dia any of our people uh murcar anyone while they we:re do:ll'i there as you recall? . " I' C: ' , I}Ot at that period o"f ti:rre'.,but before then or later;_' ______ _ d' < /f)oC-lf Old man Ht.,gtti.e--OXendine killed er uh one out the:r:e.

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,. LU1 247A Page 13. :m1h. D: C: D: C: D: C: D: C: D: C: D: C: D: \ . ~lack man or a No, be called anindian and was s.ent to the ~tentiazy/;t!=I;. a+f--...c,..th ri.tt . . n,s he was sent to the pent,entiary/lifetirrE, c:orre to tb:is o:runf and they his got him -he was sent to the penitentiaxyJlifetirre. And Oxendine was sent to the pen? h 1'.5 '11:le i;:enitentiazy)lifetine, yeah. After he returned hone, they picled him up? ~t' s right, that's right, that's right. /1.Jo.&-U . Oxendine? -IJ:;f;;./ OXendine. And you can't recall the man's nane that he mu:rdered? He was a Jones •. A Jones? Yeah, a Jones. I don't recall his first narre, but he was a Jones, I'm sure. D:> you uh know anything about . the incident of uh uh, BAmabas, Ba.mabas they called him, uh , who was supposed. to have been killed by the Oxendine boys. and then they left him, went '1:o Ged.rgia-did this have sorrething ~o. do with them going to Georgia? Wantto tell :ma about this first? C: I, I woulcm s 't know about thrlt. I v;ouldn 't ll:nort1 about that. . c:~o D: You don't recall th~t particular fuciserit?~:He was the first man buried in the Prospect CenetaJ:y and uh, I'll tell you the stoi:y about it sarretinE. Uh., Mr. Chavis, um, we were intenupted there with the telephaie. Now uh, o:xr.ing back. 1 to our conversation, ih you:c, young days, what were your young days like? ,;What did you do for entert:a.llment and so forth? Just describe your yomg years to :rre the best yob can.~ i! J 1:

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I ' , .. . , LUI,1 247A Pase 14. I ' mTh. C: I use to have just .as nice a horse and buggy as hit the road and there wasn't . . . D: C: roa'ly Inaian people that had it and I enjoyed .t'b.-that horse and buggy, "v.'6 t d have ball garres and cordf11cking and candy-~ling and. ' i ., i, I . I hat was the candy-:-pullmng? . I and We~d have this here old, they use to have these cane m•,'fl.!I an~ they'd rnalre I fi . t sm-iin and w. e'd take that _~"IT'I, you kncm, and pw.l candv ana -.Ll <:. f) 1 b . D: C: D: C: D: C: D: .,1.--;:-J,--s:. . "'. . 1 I :,J) f _ CA. I good candy. You'd :make candy? Yeah, we' d:mike a gocx:1 candy. no . f}.b"7h, 'We'd eat our cmn can~~e wouJ.an't put it on salenor nothing, we'd just pull it and roll it and .roll it and then it would be good. Did you go to church as a boy? ~7hat church did you first :rerrenber going to? /!er-rJu t."1f:')/'-./ , down yc>."1<'1er ?!1 zm:ng: +At2m f-f unf-S, . I /c. e e cl u Branch. I Cc .f cl u Branch Church. I l; Now, you didn't live down there, did you? I i: l C: Yeah. 1 we lived da,m there in a little place called Hogcline and (/_,) i / Fr/.o:,r I 1-. I ' r 'h+p1c.:,~-, , , t, we saayed J_o there. , 1,, D: I see. What was the first church 1 in this comnunity you went to? C: First church 0 in this corrmunity I went to was Chapel out there. D: .Ah, I remerrber once the uh churchi-was bumed at Chapel over a church disputeu..'l, I'm not interested in who did it, but uh, what was the uh dispute that caus$d the~church. to bum? . C: I never diQ. exactly leam but :-they bmn"ft and way back there now,they sti::l: t 'd re r..f ,; r./ the:h:(/ n r. /. . rJ h c/ l:j~burning -up the depot up here at j t f l. I I i I 11 I '

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i I LU>l 247A Page 15. rolh \..~-. and tney come then what you would call an EBI man there and,.._Uncle Andy was ' runnmg a blacksmith shdip and be oorre, that rnan a:l11l= down there and woi:ked with Uncle Andy m the blacksmith. shop, a white man, he care do;,m, cf and worked with him, with. him. for t-lo or three m:nths and he finally got ahol~ ... fc,L of sOTIE stai-q?s or sarrething anotherf" 'I.'bey send Uncle Andy to the :r;:enitentiary for that. D: And did he pull tine? . C: Yeah, yeah., 1-eah. D: And he :retumed later? C: ~t' s right, that's right. D: Now you spoke a while ago..of before we started recording,about how tough the boys were back then and u~u, will you relate to ire the incident where one went atray so he wouldn't have to ki1.l saneone? Vr,c,\e,. C: That was Uncle Sonny and John /_6c.'4<.lea r killed uncle Andy, Sonny, he just left this comt:ry to keep from killing John toe k/e a. r . All right, Uncle . I And",l had a son, his name was Henry and we donJtjmow whether he is dead \ or living. Tam and Neil might have went out there to see him and uh, that is Uncle Andy's boy, the only boy that be had and he left this oount:ry ;z. 1 a teen-age, he might have been around about eighteen ,or twenty,. twenty one years old. He left this countty to keep ram killing Jahn: D: In other words, they figured if they lived here, one ,..;ould. have to . go C: 'L'-i.at's right, right, one would have to go. And I don't know whether uncle lie."'u::t s , eousin Heru:y, I don't khCM whkther ne is ali~g or dead ,J:d.., Tan nor none of the rest of them don'.'t know. D: well, ao you think that u"l, you think tne boys back in that day were a l:i:ttle .1 r

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LUM 247A Page 16. mlh Braver t~ boys are today?. C: I u) o l! f d n ;-tsaid about that part of it,I rre.an, alcng then, in that r,'c',t.u) .. day, Itd imagine you o::>uld pick up a,1 out ahundred nen, ~t of them hmidred rren, I dowt if you'd find over half a dozen mm that would kill you. , w:lf l~ Nru, anybody today and his brother wen-1:d kill you. .Anybody kill you -a:M. D: .. I was thinking maybe it was just the opposite. (1 >-t> dh a,,, C: No sir. You oould Ret. have found a dozen rren, Uncle Andy c1:i:a just as scared of as if he was a •. Nobody rressed with thz~ ---man-they was scared of him. Nru,I'd grant it there ain't nobody scared of )cl. pe.o rte..)cl ' ' nobody. Anybody kill you nCJN, bmdy. . Tbey 1 ~ kill you right n0t1 if they ' ,J-. knot1 you h3d fifteen or twenty dollars on you before you got harre-they kill I t l you for it. They wouldn't do it back then. I.'. D: Did you ever participate in any log ,J. lo~lling? i \ C: Yeah, we useJ to over there cut eighty, ~ut eighty-five acres of land over j there and we'd haw them logs rolling and :roll them, that's the only -r.,,,ay it was. A/4f/j1/JCJ fo ,ol/1/J~)f'CJ r,o//t-A,L--/09s .. c ) I. Q D: Who helped. you? C: Atlas Scott, all bunch. of them Scotts, and bwdi. D: In other worss, did you ever have a get-~ther and the~ cook and lo I llin ' ? gro g I C: Right, right, yeah, yeah.. D: vklulcm 't charge a"ly m:ney? -r v + o e. J p .. a 'h O t-h e.r-. a C: 'J!-"iatts right, 'l:nat right, n-any a orie of them. D: In o. ther ~,ords, it was a large cooperative effort? C: That's riJi,..t. Right.

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LUH 247A Page 17. m1h D: wn.at about uh bamrais.ing? . C: Yeah, we'd have all of them bam'fusings, we 'il have a com\5huddng, and we'd have a liquor there and you wouldn't get a drink of liquor,: along then you I I l I. i' had these big co.n\_shucking; you wouldn't get a drink of liqoor until you i found and you were shucldng that com ,you'd find a :i::ed-yello.-, com, when yodel i .f-in ct D: C: D: C: D: that :ed-yellow com, you gotta take a liqoor. And som:t.ures you could get to kiss the prettiest girl them too? That's right, that's right, right, right. You didn't a.ave many red ears of com in tnat? .. cl br a -r) nor..us There you 'g;;:t maybe shuck two or three eail!1S before you care to one. I don't know what they would do with this hybrid com today, they'd never . get that drink, would they? No, no. D: What did tl1ey keep that liquor in? What was, that they called that container? C: That narra was Ji.mr;a.jobns. t D: Ji.rmwjo.'ms? C: Yeah. D: Miy'd they call it a jirrieyjohn? ,J I C: I don't know, that. was just a narre =for it. I ain•t drunk. a drop of liquor, D: C: D: . +o. wh(l.r.t. I ain't :drunk no liquor sinre it_ got the 'letY you could order it and that's, we use to nave to o~r our liqoor fra:nr Richmcnd, Virginia .And did you drink a lot in your young allys? 1 No, I never did, I wasn't, I wasn"t badtfor it, I got drunk a few tines in life, not I:lad. . t ... t" , . ' ,, . ' Well um, bade in that day, you know today you don •t find many of our people ) . i l r I I l I t I ' i

PAGE 18

,-----~--I LUM 247A Page 18. mlh ., drinking wine, but back in that day ,didn't nost of them drink wine and cider? C: Yeah, I, JI\Y grandrrother and granddaddy when I ]stayed at them three years and they'd have it on the bread.fast table and dinner table, every,eveeyt.:i.ne . +rt'-{ h ;1 d. . you went eat there,1 that wine on the table. D: Is that right? C: Yeah, but wec.wouldn 't get drunk off of it. ' I ' t D: What was education like .in your young days? . A ~1
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' LUM 247A Page 19. m1h 6 Ji C: I never did he::,,\;t being said. I might, if I did, I forgot it. . hau~ . D: How long you think these people/ been around here or uh, did you ever hear any oldtiliers say where they thought theiJ:'. greatgrandparents JCI>r sane of them carre from? C: DJ? there at the Cmmdine gm.veyard, they but they v-P h,n.~'1 f},cn .. 's di.dn' t , that ___ -e: there i:m: -up there, and] sarre of them things 'r:.-,n~~ :~ up t..'F1.ere 01er a . hundred and fifty years, but they ain't got no narre on, on 'emJ ilYf rl ,'dn '+ ha 1N .. , +/2ef'J?.;, _L,Je...rc.p 'fr.a -J-o-mb sf0 1 >es. D: When do you think, when ao you th:i.nJ\!';. yes I kncr.v, when do you think that _uh when do you think that uh, uh rerretaxy was started? Do you have any idea? C: Not the least, not the least. D: Did you ever hear um Mr. HU3"hie Oxendine say whether it was there when he C: D: C: D: C: D: C: D: C: D: was a boy or not? I don't recall that, I don't recall that. .And "t,fu:re was Mr. Hughie bom, do you recall? I don't recall that. Now, :-lr. d?.avis, you'm a Lurtbee Indian). Are you quite prou:::I. to be Indian? I enjoyit~and I like it fine. ."I Uh, you would take this in preferene= to being an~g else? Right. tJh., don't you think in recent years uhi that uh, people are. stressing their identity :rrore and do you feel this is good? Right. Yes; t Did you get to attend the Fourth. of Jult celebration over in ? C; Ycai.ti, I was right them. I I ' E I i' t HJII"'"'.

PAGE 20

LlJr.l 247A l?age 20. D: ~ttd youihink. of that? -1-C: I enjoyed itJlikeJ-~ f,n~. D: So you th.ink it has a plaoa? c: Right, right. D: Now uh, you helped your dad lots on the fa:rm and so fort:Ii and so on, and uh, do you recall any uh, uh interesting incidents as you w:>rlred with him that happened during your boyhood days? C: . I don't recollect any ,no,no. D: Well uh, tell ne about the uh, tell Ire about the 'Uh the sttm:y you told :rre just a minute ago about the horseSfLn the river. C: there_ ~d:: , a fellow driving the kerosene wagcn, was three mules pull~ --o"""7"'•"'-... that kerosene, _, one .m the middle and two on each siee. And they'd broken 'JJK-I.L'W the bridge:there, and them mules was ~ing -the man, he a:>ulcln't swim but he hap~ed to be looking up to get out was /driving it and IT\Y dadiy he.took. his pocket knife _and went ao-;.m and1cut the hamess off of evezy one of them mules tnd old Shuss McCloui g&ve him five gallons of kerosene for it. D: He saved tfie mules and he_ got five gal
PAGE 21

LUM 247A Page 2]. :rn1h C: No, I wasn't with him, no, no. o/\ D: You were not with him on ~t, /that dzq? C: No, no. D: In othe:r: words, he was cleliver~g oil just like you deliver oil today with the truck.? C: 'J1lat' s right, the nniles was pulling it. D: Vlhat'd people use oil for then, just lllJSi:ly their larcps I guess? I \. l C: Larcps and kerosene lamps and things and all. When we was out there in Georgia,/• . c.h ,n c.l: es had a :little bitty lanp :rcq wife, nu:motner was in there killing ~~d'2!r'ls . off, off of the bed, and uh, she turned it over m one of them there little [ bitty yo1.nguns and :rrw da:ldy took their ke.nosene, I ~an he took a quilt ' i ' and srrothered. her an4:,ut her out, but she .stayed in bed far nonths and ~ths ;. and m::nths cft:er that. ' D:. ..