Title: Interview with Early Bullard, Gaston Locklear (July 22, 1969)
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007199/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Early Bullard, Gaston Locklear (July 22, 1969)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: July 22, 1969
Spatial Coverage: Lumbee County (Fla.)
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00007199
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 226

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Gaston Locklear


DATE: July 22, 1969

D: This is July 22, 1969. I'm at the home of Mr. Early Bullard. Mr. Bullard,
how old are you?

B: I'm eighty. Soon eighty-one in August.

D: You were the first elected Lumbee judge. Am I correct? I believe this
was around 1956.

B: That's correct.

D: Would you tell me just who you are? Some of your parents and grandparents
and so forth? I believe you are related to Mr. Preston Locklear?

B: That's my grandfather.

D: Mr. Preston iS your grandfather?

B: Yeah, and his wife was my grandmother. Jim Bullard and Mary Bullard were
my grandparents on my father's side.

D: Also with us here today is Mr. Gaston Locklear, who is the uncle of Mr. Early
Bullard. Mr. Gaston Locklear, you're the son of Mr. Preston Locklear. Is
that correct?

L: That's correct.

D: What was Mr. Preston Locklear's father's name?

L: Zack Locklear.

D: I suppose he lived back during the Civil War?

L: Yeah.

D: Do you know Mr. Zack Locklear's wife's name?

L: Matilda Locklear.

D: You would confirm this too, would you not, Judge Bullard?

B: Yes, sir.

D: Can you go back beyond Mr. Zack Locklear? Do you have any idea who your
great-grandparents were?

B: Yes.

D: Who was your great-grandfather?

B: I told you his name a while ago.

D: Sam.

B: Sam Locklear.

D: That was a long time ago, wasn't it?


D: Mr. Locklear, did your grandparents and great-grandparents live on Long

L: It is what they say, yeah, lived on Long Swamp.

D: For many generations the Locklears who reside on Long Swamp now, were there
long, long ago, were they not?

L: Yeah. A long time ago.

D: Judge Bullard, what about your ancestors? Have they always resided, or did
they reside for several generations in the area of the Prospect Community?

B: Yes sir, I think so, from the best I could understand.

D: How far can you go back with your grandparents?

B: No further than my granny Mary and granddaddy Jim.

D: At the time the Yankees came through this area here during the Civil War, there
were Yankee troops through here, some of Sherman's Army. I'm sure that you
must have heard some interesting stories about the Northern troops in this area,
the Union forces. Do you recall any stories Mr. Bullard?

B: Yeah, I recall one story. My father was in the field plowing. A shirttail
boy. They took his horse from him, and wanted him to go with them on up
there to Wakulla. They were going to camp that night and they told him,
his mother, they would give her the horse back next month, but she never
would agree. They went and camped somewhere about Wakulla that night.

D: Generally speaking, Mr. Bullard and Mr. Locklear, how did the northern
troops treat the Indians through this area when they came through? What
did your grandparents say about this?

B: They said they were nice to them.

D: Was that your understanding too, Mr. Locklear?

L: Yeah, good people, nice gentelemen.

D: They were nice to them.

L: They knew that you weren't white.

D: Yeah, they were good to the Lumbees because they were not white, and, of
course, Sherman's Army, gave the Lumbees good treatment. On the other hand,
they gave the white citizens of the area a rather harsh treatment. I'm sure
all of us could agree on that. I understand that Dr. Governor Locklear, who
was the son of Mr. Preston Locklear, and also the brother of you, Mr. Gaston
Locklear, was the first Lumbee Indian doctor of this area. Would you tell
us about him, where he went to school and so forth?

B: Yeah, that is correct. He went to school to Dr. Gilbert here in the county.
Two years under him, and after that, he went to Baltimore, Maryland. What's
the name of that college?


D: To John Hopkins in Baltimore?

B: John Hopkins Hospital. Stayed there into the two years and then he come home.

D: Yes, I understand he was a mighty good, well-qualified doctor, too.

B: Yeah, a good and well qualified doctor, too. Lumberton was really.

D: Doctor Pope?

B: Old Doctor Pope?

D: Did Dr. Pope practice in Lumberton?

B: No.

D: Do you recall anything that Dr. Pope had to say about Dr. Locklear?

B: He said he was a wonderful doctor, as good as there was in the county,
because he was educated with him.

D: They schooled together, I understand. Reading the history of the college
and about some of the early leaders of the community, I often come across
the name Preston Locklear. Could you tell me something about his pioneer
days and his work and so forth for education?

L: He was one of the head men at that time in getting the college established.

D: He was on the first board of trustees at the old normal school.

L: Yeah, one of the first members of the normal school on the board.

D: Did he and W.L. Moore work along some together?

L: I don't remember that.

B: Yeah, grandpa was the first teacher.

D: W.L. Moore was the first principal or teacher at the old Normal School at
Pate's which is now Pembroke State University on a different site, about a
mile and a half from the present site of Pembroke State University. In

B: 1885.

D: That's correct, 1885, the Indians of this area were designated as Croatan
Indians. What part did Mr. Preston Locklear play in? What role did he play
with the legislator Hamilton McMillan along this line, and what were his
feelings on it?

B: He thought that it should be changed, and he went to work for that end.

D: Just a minute now. When he thought it should be changed--all right, go
ahead and give me the story here on the Croatan part.

B: There were, really, to tell the truth Adolph. They were pretty malicious.
"Indians" was nothing, and they went to work to get their name. "Croatan"
was what they accepted, while McMillan wanted to give them Cherokee. But
Old Man Jim Oxendine and Jim Dial said it would never do if they took the
name Cherokee. They'd drive us away to the West.

D: Many of the Cherokee had already gone from this area to the West. Mr.
Preston and some more of them, felt that they, too, would have to go West
if they were given this name, is this correct?

B: That's correct.

D: So, Mr. Preston and some of them were for the name "Croatan" for this reason.
Is this your understanding, Mr. Gaston?

L: That's my understanding.

D: At this time, this was a good name, was it not? There was nothing wrong
with it?

B: No, there was nothing wrong with it.

L: No, nothing wrong with the name at that time.

D: What happened in later years to cause people to dislike this name "Croatan"?

B: They thought it was a mixed name, a mixed people.

L: They thought it was a mixed people, and they weren't satisfied with it.

D: The name locally was often used in a way that the Indian people resented,
is this correct?

B: That's correct.

D: If you wanted to say something bad about an individual you called him a
"Croatan," and, of course, he resented this.

B: That's right. He resented that name. He'd fight you on it.

D: Yes, he would fight you on it. Prior to the time of the normal school, and
prior to 1887....

B: Prior to 1885.

D: Yes, even prior to 1885--what about education of the Lumbees prior to 1885?

L: There were none of them educated at that time.

B: I think the old man Nathan Locklear was said to have some education.

D: This was education that they just happened to pick up in the home, or a
friend, or anywhere they could get it. They didn't even have the district
schools before this time.

D: We are speaking of this era between 1835 and 1885. Prior to 1835, I
imagine they were going to schools with the whites and so forth, were
they not?

B: Yeah.

L: Yeah.

D: Judge Bullard, we often refer to your election in 1956 as the first elected
Indian judge. Were there some Indians elected to other offices of the county,
such as county commissioner during Reconstruction?

B: Yes, they served then.

D: They served during Reconstruction. You don't recall if they were elected or

B: No, I can't tell about that.

D: All my life I've heard a lot of talk about Scuffletown. First Mr. Bullard,
and then you, Mr. Locklear, what do you know about this name Scuffletown.

B: Nothing more than tradition that says it's right there where Paul lives now.

D: Right adjoining the lands of Prospect School.

B: That's right.

D: How did it get its name Scuffletown?

B: Whiskey wagons they said come through. They would stop there 'till they
sold all their whiskey out, and the women and men would dance and go on.

D: Were these wagons from the Sand Hills?

B: Yes, that's where they said they came from.

D: They bring whiskey down and sell it to the Indians or trade it to them and
have parties and big times. Let me see what Mr. Gaston Locklear has to say
on it.

L: About the same thing.

D: Changing subjects here. Dr. Locklear, he had a drugstore right near this site
of Scuffletown, in the Prospect community, did he not, about a quarter of a
mile from the present school building Prospect?

L: Yeah.

B: Yeah.

D: That's perhaps an eighth of a mile. Dr. Locklear had a son named Adrell by
his first wife, did'he not? !Wasn't he'killed in World War'One.

B: No.


D: He was not killed in the war, but he died on the way over. He is buried
in Arlington National Cemetery.

Judge Bullard, will you tell me about the upkeep of the roads in the area
back during your boyhood days?

B: It was worked by free labor, and they had to give, I think, two days out of
the month.

D: Two days out of the month to keep the road up. What happened if they
didn't help?

B: They could pick them up and send them to jail.

D: Everybody had to help keep the road up. Could you hire someone in your place?

B: I wouldn't be able to tell you about that.

D: Mr. Locklear, suppose you begin with your education and tell me where you
taught school.

L: I went to school out here at old Prospect Public School. When I left there I
went to the old Pembroke College for four years. After that, I got qualified
to teach as a teacher in the public schools. Now I can teach in the county
at different schools.

D: I'd like to hear you gentlemen say something about your first years in school.
What the work was like, and the room, and the fireplace? We'll start here
with you, Judge Bullard.

B: It was just nothing but one straight building and desks across the rear end.
You had to do all your writing and bookwork--and a big fireplace in the other
end. The boys toted their wood out of the woods. iThere was no way to get it
other than going in the woods and cut it and tote it.

D: How many months of school did you have then?

B: Sometimes three.

D: Would you attend everyday from about eight 'till three, or what were the hours?

B: Nine to four.

Di How about your experience Mr. Locklear?

L: That's my experience, what he said.

D: You gentlemen are about the same age. How old are you Mr. Locklear?

D: Mr. Gaston Locklear, eighty-eight, and Judge Bullard?

B: I will be eighty-one in August.

D: Eighty-one in August. Will you gentlemen tell me something about the Knights
of Labor? Was it in operation after the turn of the century? Will you tell
us about this Judge Bullard?


B: I couldn't tell you nothing, only tradition about it. It was here and they'd
meet out there.

D: I have my grandfather's, Marcus Dial!s book of rules and so forth, for the
Knights of Labor. I notice his name is written in there in 1890. Mr. Locklear,
what do you know about the Knights of Labor?

L: I don't know anything to know about it. Just tradition handed down to us.

D: You know the Knights of Labor was a farm organization in this area, basically.
I would like for you gentlemen to explain to me what life was like on the
farm in your early boyhood days. Will you tell me about your experiences?

B: We got nothing to farm with except them rude plows, stumping by hand. That's
about all that we had. It was rough farming.

D: Oxen?

B: Yeah, oxen mostly. A mule now and then.

D: Which came in this area first, the mule or the horse?

B: I don't know about that.

D: Mr. Gaston, which do you think?

L: I don't know either which was the first, the mules or the oxen.

D: But you remember the old oxen?

L: Yes. I never did work none of them. I knowed they were here.

D: Judge Bullard, did you work the oxen?

B: No sir, I didn't have to work one.

D: They were pretty stubborn, I understand.

B: Yes, they said they were.

D: In this area I know we still say, "He's as stubborn as the old oxen."

B: Yeah.

D: Mr. Locklear, this house that you live in, when was that house built?

L: It has been built about sixty years now.

D: Did you have to make the brick in the chimney?

L: Made the brick that went in the chimney.

B: In the chimney.


D: Did you ever have to do any:building'with pegs, or did they have nails
when you, as long as you can remember?

L: They used pegs in the corner posts, that's what I put in the corners.

D: What about your experience? You were a carpenter, Judge?

B: I never did use pegs.

D: Pegs were before your day?

B: Yeah, they were before me.

D: I noticed the old Red Banks home that was torn down. There were many pegs
in that.

B: Oh, yeah. They say it was pegged together.

D: Tell me something about the woodsawing, the cornshuckings, and the quilting

B: They's have cornshuckings. A fella would haul up his corn. You'd pile it
in the yard. Then gather around there at night, shuck it and put it into
the barn. They never come along until just the last few years.

D: The woodshuckings and the woodsawings didn't go back before the turn of the

B: No.

D: They had logrolling parties, didn't they?

B: Yeah, they had logrolling.

D: They had logrolling long before they had woodsawings and cornshuckings. That
was more recent. I'm proud to know that; I didn't know it.

B: That was the only way they had of clearing their land: cut the timber down,
tote it up in big piles, and burn it.

D: Someone recently spoke of having logrolling. Mr. Sim Bullard and his son
Mr. Rand said they'd have as many as seventy-five at a logrolling.

B: Yeah.

D: What about:the Fencing Law and the Stock Law?

L: You can't hardly remember when we had fences. At that time the stock ran
out at large, and they'd go where they were feeding of a day, and get 'em
and bring them in at night. Shut them up so you could feed them and milk

D: Judge, what do you know about the fences?

B: Just about the same. Every man had to cut his own rails and fence up his
own little farm.


D: Did you ever cut any rails?

B: Oh, yeah.

D: How many could you cut in a day?

B: I don't know.

D: Mr. Gaston, did you ever cut any rails?

L: Yes.

D: How many could you cut in a day?

L: Ten tons of timber. I'd split them all. It was splitting timber, you
could split out 100, I reckon. I cut many a crosstie.

D: Did you gentlemen do any cutting of crossties?

B: Yes, sir. Cut a many a crosstie for railroads.

D: I imagine it was quite a task, cutting a tie, and often times...
How would you get it out in the swamp?

B: Bring it out on your shoulder.

D: Would one man carry a tie?

B: Yes, he did it if he was a good man. Mostly took two.

D: But you were a good man if you could bring one out. Did you ever see anyone
bring two ties out?

B: No, never did.

D: Did any of the Yankee soldiers who came through marry local Indian girls,
to the best of your knowledge, Judge Bullard?

B: Yes sir, they did, according to the reports.

D: Do you know the names of any?

B: No, none but Squire Barton?

B: He lived up here.

D: That's what's known as the Barton place today?

B: That's right.

D: Was he a'Yankee soldier, that married an Indian girl?

B: Yes, he married a combo.


D: Married.a combo. Did you personally know Squire Barton?

B: Yeah. I saw him in his last days.

D: Why did they call him Squire Barton?

B: He was kind of a justice of the peace, a lawgiver.

D: Justice of the peace and they called him Squire.

B: That's what they called him.

D: Mr. Locklear, did you know of any Yankee soldiers that married local girls?

L: None but Squire Barton, that's the only one I ever knew.

D: It must be true that Squire Barton, a Yankee, stopped by and liked the

L: Yeah, he married one of them.

D: Who were some of the offspring of Squire Barton and the Combos? Who were
some of Squire Barton's children, do you know?

B: Yeah.

L: Yeah.

B: Uncle Mack, Buddy Barton, Zaiada's grandfather across the river.

D: Eldrige Barton. They were all his children.

B: Yeah, and Aunt Sadie.

D: I get this name Nep Barton. When I was a child, there was someone they
called Nep Barton, who was supposed to be able to tell fortunes and, she
could tell you where you lost things, and how to find them, and so on.
Is this the same person?

B: No.

D: So this was not Nep Barton, then. This was Nancy Locklear.

By the way, during your boyhood days, didn't many of the people believe
that some of the people had certain powers, that see ghosts at night,
tell your fortune, and so forth? Mr. Gaston, how about this?

L: I don't know a thing about it.

D: You don't know anything about this. How about it, Judge Bullard?

B: I heard them talk about.it, that's all.

D: I know there was a man up in the community when I was a child, by the name
of John Goins, and he claimed that he could see men walking around without
any heads.

B: Yeah.

D: I imagine the old jack-o'-lantern had some of them thinking that this was
some kind of supernatural something moving around.

Let's go back to the church here now. I would like for each one of you to
tell me about the history of Prospect church. This is an old church.

B: Nothing that I've understood Adolph. The first church was this side of the
branch there where Onnie Dial lives.

D: How many churches--this one standing, is this four or three?

B: Three.

D: This is the third one.

B: Third church.

D: The one standing in Morefield is a packhouse, and the present one, and
the one over at Onnie Dial's.

B: Yeah.

D: Would you tell me about the old cooper shop at Onnie Dial's? What was a
cooper shop?

B: Made barrels from the trees. Repaired traces.

D: Miss Effie Ann told me once that the first school that she knew anything
about was the old cooper shop, there close to the present sight of Onnie
Dial's. Do you know anything about this?

B: No, I don't know about it.

D: Do you Mr. Locklear?

L: Don't know anything about it.

D: She said they had school in the old cooper shop. At one time many of the
Lumbees in this area left and went to Georgia to work in turpentine. Why
did they go to Georgia to work in turpentine? Did we have any turpentine
industry here?

B: Yes, they had some.

D: Did you ever work in turpentine?

B: Yes, sir.

D: What would you do? Tell me what it was like.

B: Just cut you a box in a tree, catch the tar. They you'd chip it with a hack,
saw it with a five-pound grade on it, and you've got it up something like
that. Then you get a short-handled puller.


B: How often would you dig the turpentine fr6m the-box?

L: Every two weeks.

D: You dip it every two weeks?

L: Dip it every two weeks.

D: Mr. Locklear, when you dipped this turpentine, what would you do with it?
Would you put it in a barrel then?

L: Pour it in a barrel and put it in a barrel.

D: And then sell it?

L: Close it up and ship it straight there.

D: You didn't process any of it here?

L: Oh, yes. It was made here and shipped in a liquid form.

D: Yes, it was shipped in a liquid form, but you didn't use it as tar for boats
for waterproofing.

L: No, it was never used for that.

D: But much of it was used for that, was it not?

L: Yeah, it was used for that.

D: Yes.

L: Yeah, boats and things.

D: We did have the turpentine still. What did you do with the turpentine still?

B: Make spirit of turpentine out of it and what they call rosin.

D: What was rosin? What connection did turpentine have with rosin?

B: It all come off the same tree. The base of the box would be pulled during the
summer. Then at the fall, that would get hard on there. Then they'd take a
scraper, and go there and scrape it off the base of the box, put it into
these barrels, and haul it to the turpentine still.

D: I met an Oxendine fellow in Memphis a couple of years ago. As a matter of fact,
he was the only Oxendine listed in the Memphis, Tennessee telephone directory.
Some of his people, many years ago, went down to Georgia, to, I suppose, work
in turpentine. This Oxendine fellow today was a big executive in the city of
Memphis and doing real well. He said that his great-grandparents came from
Robeson County. He'd never been in Robeson, but he knew the story. I'm sure
that you fellows often heard your parents or maybe your grandparents speak of
Henry Berry Lowrie and what they thought of this man. Would you comment on
that, Judge Bullard?


B: I'd heard them speak of him, Adolph, as a gentleman.

D: Why did they call him a gentleman?

B: He didn't bother with women folks through the country at all. He just prowled
around and tried to save his skin from being killed and didn't bother nobody
unless they bothered him. If they got to coming after him, trying to arrest
him, he'd give them a chance and send them word to stop.

D: What was your opinion of Henry Berry from what you've been told, Mr. Locklear?

L: The same thing, about like he said.

D: It appears today that he's respected by all the Indian people of the area.

L: He was respected by all people in the country.

D: His reign was from 1865 to 1872, and the last of the gang was gone in 1874.
It appears, since his reign, that he has been a gentleman, respected by all
the Indian people of the area. That's my opinion.

B: And most of the whites.

D: Do you think the white race aided him in any way?

B: Yeah, according to reports, they did.

D: They would help him to get ammunition and guns?

B: Yeah.

D: Have you heard this, Mr. Locklear?

L: Yeah, I've heard that same story. He'd come up to their place anytime you
wanted to, and they'd feed him, give him something to eat.

D: Do you think they felt that this was because he had a just cause, or they
wanted to stay in with him?

B: It was a just cause.

D: You think it was because they felt it was a just cause?

B: Yeah, his father and his older brother [were] took out and killed like
killing hogs.

D: Of course, this is what causedhim to start.

B: Yeah.

D: Mr. Locklear, are you any relation to Henry Berry Lowrie, the outlaw?

L: Yeah, I'm a relation way off.


D: Your mother's uncle?

L: Yeah, my mother's uncle. Emmaline Lowrie's mother. He was his mother's
uncle. He was their uncle.

D: In other words, he was your great uncle.

L: Great uncle on my mother's side.

D: What do you think happened to him? Do you think that he left here, or do
you think he was killed accidentally?

L: I think he left here.

D: Why do you think that?

L: Nobody could never tell anything about him, whether he was killed, and when
certain reports--but the reports proved not to be so.

D: Judge Bullard, do you think Henry Berry Lowrie left here, or do you think
maybe he died by accident?

B: I have different opinions about it. Getting the various stories I've heard
together, sometimes I believe he left with the army.

D: Sometimes you think maybe he didn't?

B: Yeah, 'cause they said whenever them troops moved out from Moss Neck, he was
not seen anymore. They were here hunting him and his gang.

D: You mean the home guard?

B: The government troops that camped there.

D: Do you recall any interesting Henry Berry Lowrie stories that's been told over
the years?

B: They said that this is just traditional, but he come to the camp there at Moss
Neck and got the general. The general wanted to go where his hideout was,
and he told him okay. So he carried him on to the river and they blindfolded
the general. Got on aside the river, put him in a boat, and carried him on
down to his hideout. Then he unfolded his eyes so he could see. He left from
here right after that.

D: Have you heard this story too, Mr. Locklear?

L: Yes, sir, heard the same story.

D: Would you repeat that?

B: Said this general said that they didn't do a thing more than what he'd done.

D: I see you are smoking a pipe. Did you smoke during your boyhood days, Judge

B: No, I was gone when I started smoking.


D: Did you grow tobacco in this area then?

B: No, sir.

D: When did tobacco come to the Prospect community and the Pembroke community?

B: About '16, I believe.

D: During World War I?

B: Yeah. There were two barns put up, but they went down.

D: When did the boll weevil [Anthonomous grandis] come about?

B: I forgot, Adolph.

D: Mr. Gaston, can you recall when the boll weevil came in?

L: No, I can't recall when he came in.

D: But he was not here during the war, was he?

L: No, weren't here during the war.

D: So it was after World War I.

L: Yeah.

D: Would you say something about Henry Berry Lowrie and his respect?

B: There was never a blot against him about women folks as I heard of, that
nor any.

D: Do you agree with this, Mr. Gaston?

L: Yes, I agree with him.

D: The stories go that oftentimes people would hide him out in the shuck barn.

L: Yeah.

D: Do you gentlemen feel that World War I was good for the Indian race? I
know it's hard to say that war is good for any group of people, but can you
see any good that came out of World War I? If so, what?

B: I don't.

L: I don't, either.

B: Only that veteran's hospital in Fayetteville.

D: Some felt that many of the Indian people in the area had never been anyplace
until World War I, that they got away and saw how things were on the other
side of the fence, and that this helped them to some degree. This is the
kind of thing I'm speaking of. I'm sure you would goth',agree with that.


D: The Indian boys didn't fight in the Civil War. I understand that they went
to the battery. Would you have a comment on that, Judge Bullard?

B: Some of them went into the Confederate Army, Federal Army....

D: Some of them went into the Union Army?

B: Yeah.

D: Do you know of any names of any Lumbees who fought in the Union Army?

B: Uncle Ben Chavis was one.

D: Are you familiar with this story, Mr. Gaston?

L: Yeah, I think back to where that Ben Chavis was one.

D: He was from up around Cherokee Section. Some of the boys in this area
went down to Fort Fisher and worked in the battery, did they not?

B: Yeah.

L: I think they did

B: My dad was one.

D: Your dad worked in the battery? What was that work like in the battery?

B: I couldn't tell you that,but he was in enrollment in the time of it.

D: At Fort Fisher?

B: At Fort Fisher.

D: Did you ever hear him tell about the stories of working in the battery?

B: No, never did hear him say what he done. He didn't stay very long.

D: Was this while you were a boy or before your time?

B: Before I was born.

D: It would have to be if it were during the Civil War. So, Mr. Preston worked
in the battery?

B: Yeah, right there at Wilmington.

D: They helped to make salt?

B: Yeah, and build batteries. Keep the North whipped, you know? Whip it to 'em.

D: They didn't draft Lumbees into the army at this time, but they wanted to draft
them into labor camps? Is that your understanding, Mr. Locklear?


L: That's my understanding.

D: Judge Bullard, at one time the story was that an Indian in the area couldn't
carry a gun. Could he or could he not? Would you tell me about this?

B: No, he was forbidden to carry a gun.

D: Was this before your day?

B: Yeah. There's one old lawyer told Uncle Jackson Locklear, says, "Tie you a
string around your gun, and drag it, and when you see something you want to
kill, pick your gun up and kill it and drop it back down." They said they
broke the law like that.

D: Mr. Locklear, what do you know about this?

L: I hadn't heard that. That was the first of my knowing it.

D: They would pull the gun along on the ground, and pick it up, and shoot. He
was told to do this, so that way he could legally carry one. Do you remember
when they were so they could carry a gun?

B: No, sir, I don't.

L: No, sir, I don't know when.

D: As long as you can remember, they could always carry a gun, Mr. Locklear?

L: Yeah.

D: The same with you, Judge Bullard?

B: That's right.

D: Judge Bullard, Mr. Ralph Lowrie at one time was a candidate for road supervisor
for Smith Township. Could you relate something to me concerning this campaign?

B: It was pretty hard fought. They tried to knock us out some voting and held us down
but finally, the chairman of the county board of elections said it did not apply.

D: It didn't apply to the Lumbee Indians.

B: No. He said it only applied to the colored man.

D: They were trying to use the "grandfather clause" on the Lumbees?

B: On us, yes.

D: Mr. Locklear, do you understand-this to be this way, too? ,

B: That's the same way it was at that time.

D: Was Mr. Ralph Lowrie elected?


B: No, Waters beat him a little. We couldn't get our votes all out. They were
afraid to go.

D: They were afraid to go vote. Why were they afraid?

B: They was afraid they'd be turned down.

D: Afraid to be turned down. Didn't want to be embarrassed.

B: That's right.

D: There's great voter participation today. We all should. Judge Bullard, I
noticed this is some of the most fertile land here in the entire state of
North Carolina. No wonder the Lumbees settled here, or at least Indians
decided that this was good hunting ground and good farming ground. Lumbee
River was a fine fishing river. When did you buy this farm here?

B: Bought the first fifty-five acres in 1904.

D: What did you pay for this land per acre?

B: Five dollars.

D: Five dollars per acre. How many acres of land do you and your son have today?
About six hundred?

B: Yeah, I think so. I'd have to check that up, Adolph.

D: Mr. Locklear, your father, I imagine, owned quite a plantation too, did he not?

L: We heard that he had three hundred and sixty acres, where I'm standing now, at
that time when he bought it.

D: The story goes that we had a few Lumbees many years ago who owned a few
thousand acres of land. Do you think this is true?

B: It might be Adolph, because the white man runned around and possessed it.
That old Locklear that lived up there in the woods, above -here Whop's house
is, they said he owned from there down to the forks of the Juniper and the
Long Swamps.

D: That would be about how far?

B: It's a mile or more.

L: No, it was Sam Locklear's estate.

D: In other words, your great-grandfather. Did you ever hear how many?

L: Yeah..They said he owned from the ford up towards Moores, to across the
swamp there. It crossed the Red Banks line and back out there to Jupiter.

D: That would be a few thousand acres.


L: Yeah.

D: According to the description you gave me, your great-grandfather, or your
grandfather Zack...

L: My great-great-grandfather on my daddy's side.

D: Yes, on your father's side, Sam Locklear. There was you, Mr. Gaston, Mr.
Preston, your father, and your grandfather, Mr. Zack, and your great-
grandfather Mr. Sam Locklear owned several thousand acres.

L: Up and down Long Swamp.

D: You don't know how he acquired this land?

L: Nope, I don't know.

D: You only know he had it.

L: According to reports.

D: Did he keep all of this land or was it lost, Mr. Locklear?

L: Who?

D: Your great-grandfather, Sam.

L: I guess he lost it.

D: Judge Bullard, what is your understanding on how he lost it?

B: They'd got a horse there and put it in his stable.

D: Who are "they"?

B: The white folks. It was death then to steal horses. They just told him
to clear out, and they wouldn't prosecute him. So he just cleared out and
give them the land.

D: So several thousand acres of land went up the drain so to speak.

B: Yeah.

D: Mr. Locklear, you live on some of this same land today, but your father
purchased it later.

L: Yeah, I remember.

D: Did your father purchase this land from another Lumbee or a white man?

L: I think it was white folks.

B: White folks.

L: At that time, the way my old parents tell, in them days, the white folks,
whatever stuff they had, they had marks on them. Had a mark and they-d declare


their....They'd have some of their things and let the Indians put in their
possession. Then they'd get the Indians up for it. The Indians would have
to pay so much. That's the way they get their land.

D: Judge Bullard, as you look back on the childhood days, and as you knew your
grandchildren and other small children around, does it appear to you that
children of today are, really living a better life, or seem to be happier
than they were when you were a boy? Did you grow up a happy child?

B: Yeah, I growed up happy. I got enough to eat, a good place to sleep.

D: What did you do for entertainment?

B: I just went to school and church.

D: Did you fish and hunt any?

B: No, I never did fish and hunt.

D: You worked?

B: Yeah.

D: You seem to enjoy working?

B: Yeah, I did.

D: How about you, Mr. Locklear?

L: I enjoyed my life. I was farming all the time, working hard, and I enjoyed it.

D: You taught school; you enjoyed that.

L: Taught school and enjoyed all my life.

D: Now you are eighty-eight years old. I believe I saw you ditching not too long
ago. When did you stop ditching?

L: After I got sick one time, fall before last, and I had to stop.

D: You were ditching two years ago?

L: Yes, two years ago.

D: What do you contribute to your long life too?

L: It's hard to tell. I was always good to my parents.

D: Have you been a heavy eater of pork?

L: No, I'm not a heavy, heavy eater at all.

D: Did you always observe the rules of health?


L: Yes. Such rules as they had in them days.

D: You didn't have many health rules back in that day, did you?

L: No.

D: Judge Bullard, I see you're lighting that pipe up again. How did you
learn to smoke?

B: Lighting my mother's pipe for her of a morning. She'd just puff it a
few times and that was the end of it after I'd get it lit. An old cob
pipe, with a made-up stem.

D: Did many of the Indian women smoke in this area?

B: Not too many.

D: But quite a few?

B: Yeah.

D: They smoked a pipe?

B: Yeah.

D: No cigarettes?

B: No cigarettes. Old plugs of tobacco.

D: Did they chew tobacco?

B: Yeah, some of them chewed tobacco.

D: Lots of them like to dip snuff?

B: Yeah.

D: During your boyhood days, Judge Bullard, what was the basic diet?

B: Vegetables that we raised on the farm.

D: Eat much pork?

B: Yeah, we had what meat we wanted.

D: You butchered your own pork.

B: Yeah.

D: Mr. Locklear, what about your diet?

B: I had plent to eat in my day. Any something to eat I wanted.

D: Lotsof vegetables? -


L: Raised on...

D: Chicken?

L: ...chickens, and...

D: Pork?

L: ...Pork.

D: Milk?

L: Milk.

D: Cows?

L: Yeah. Anything we wanted, we had it raised on the farm.

D: Had a few sheep in the area, too?

L: Yeah, raised sheep.

D: I don't see any sheep around nowadays.

L: No, there's none around now.

D: Out of all the white men in the area during your lifetime, who would you
consider some of the real friends to the Indian people. I'll ask each
one of you. Judge Bullard?

B: Old D. L. Stewart, they said, but he's one of your badder enemies.

D: Who i.s this now?

B: D. L. Stewart.

D: "Leach" Stewart?

B: Called him "Square "

D: Called Him "Square ." Who do you consider maybe a good friend? I believe
at onetime there was Hamilton McMillan Day. Did you consider Hamilton
McMillan a good friend to the Indian people?

B: Yes.

D: Mr. Locklear?

L: Yes, sir.

B: Give us the separate schools.

D: He provided the separate schools for them. All right, thank you.

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