Citation

## Material Information

Title:
Interview with Elisha Dial and Betty Rogers, July 26, 1971
Creator:
Dial, Elisha ( Interviewee )
Rogers, Betty ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:
Language:
English

## Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Florida History ( local )
Lumbee Oral History Collection ( local )
Spatial Coverage:
Lumbee County (Fla.)

## Notes

Funding:
This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

## Record Information

Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management:
Resource Identifier:
LUM 216 ( SPOHP IDENTIFIER )

Full Text

LUM4 216A

Page 1.

INTERVIEWEE: El9sha Dial/petty Rogers

July'26, 1971

D: Testing one, two. Testing one, two. Testing one, two. Testing one,

two. Testing one, two. Testing.... Testing one, two. Testing one, two.

Testing one, two. Testing one, two. Testing....Testing one, two.

Testing one, two. Testing one, two. Testing one, two. Testing.

Testing. This is July the 26th, 1971.. Adolph Dial speaking, Pembroke

State University, Professor of History and Government. I'm here in

Hoke County with my uncle, Elisha Dial, and his, and his granddaughter-

in-law, Mrs. Betty Rogers. Mrs. Betty Rogers is one of my former

students at Prospect School and also Pembroke State University. What

is your age? I'm going to call you Mr. Dial in order to make this

.easier. Mr. Dial, what is your age?

F: Eighty.

D: Eighty, what, what year did you come to Hoke County?

E: '17 I believe.

D: You moved here in 1917. I believe you said you married in 1914?

E: Yes.

D: Speak a little louder. What was Hoke County like when you came here?

What was the school situation like when you came here? Were there

any schools for Indian children at that time?

E: No, sir, no, no -chools for Indians.

D: How did you go about getting the school started?

E: Well, I met the Board of Education and they.'told me to go back and

LUM 216A

Page 2. .4ib :- i, i

see how many I could find df students: If I could get thirty they

would give me a teacher'.' Well,' I came, backhand gotAthe number that

they asked for, rehit bback,i the siperirintrndent told me, he said, "Well,

you've 'got' thi inumibei,'" He Isaysv,' "Now +i4 go get you a teacher,

find 'you a teachiel 'sdmhie.tlP- So 'I't enet bdcki'own to, around

in that' section lah4dI foidnda' Ctirl dbri 'there, br 'the name 'of Della

Oxendine and I ded with her to take the school.

D: Do you remember what they paid her?

E: I think about forty dollars or something like that a month.

D: Now so you began with one,.you began with one, one teacher. This was

in the 1920s I suppose.

E: Yes, began with one teacher.

D: Did you have a school bus at this time?

E: No, we didn't have any school bus.

D: How long before you had a school bus?

E: Oh, five or six years I reckon before we got a school bus.

D: How far would some of the students have to walk to school?

E: Well, three or four miles, five.

D: Some walked as far as five miles?

D: This was a one-teacher school?

E: One teacher, one teacher-school.

D: Now when they finished their, you didn't have a high school, did you?

E: No, sir.

1L

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D: So they went a few years and then stopped out and went to work on

the farm most of them?

E: That's right. They went to the farm after they quit school. That's

a six months school at that time.

D: Now how-many months' school did they have when you were a boy?

E: Well, about three .months I believe when I started school.

D: Now when you, you went to school tell me about some of your earlier

childhood days. A while ago you remarked about drinking water out

of a stream and so forth. Suppose you tell me this story.

E: Well, we didn't have anything to'drink'water out of at that time but

the well.

D: This, is down in Robeson County.

E: Yes, that's Robeson County, old Prospect, and we went to the swamp

to drink the water out of the run because the well was filled up with

these green :,-e5 w cal1eC-cL ern- and wei couldn't drink that water.

We'd go down to the branch and lie down on our stomach and drink the

water out of the run and it was pretty and clear. It looked good and

it was good and then we'd go back to the school house, get our dinner and

eat that, !be ready for school. That would be at noontime. We didn't

get any water, only at recess or at noontime to drink. The teacher

I was goi'jg to school to was Reverend Moore, W. L. Moore, and his

daughter told me something down at the swamp and told me that...just

want me to speak it c.' ; o4os ?

"D; .Yes, speak i't as it was.
Some.
E: 4.Q bOf thte"boys had peed in the water, in the swamp, the branch, and

she told me to tell Mr. Moore, that was her father, about what the

LUH 216A

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boys had did in the branch and they couldn't get no water to drink

because they had peed in the swamp into the run. And so she told

me to tell Mr. Moore about it. So I got back to the school house

and I got out and X told him, I says, "Miss Emma told me to tell you

that the boys had peed in the swamp and we couldn't get any water to

drWnk down there." And he told one of the students there, William

Bl3e,"take me down to, out to the well and wash my mouth out with

a corn cob," and he satd, "Well' we can't fin4 no corn cobs around

here." He says, "Take -you up a huckleberry to scrub-your mouth out."

Well, I didn't do that. I told him if I had to do that we'd go back

just like I came.

D: So you went on back. o you remember, do you remember any other in-

teresting tales in your real early days, any fun or serious business

when you were in school? i

E: Well, I didn't get to go to school but: just a little while and I

didn't get a chance to go for just a few days school at that time

and'on the next year I got to go*a few days and that was just about

all' that 1 got. Two or three months schooling was all that I got.

D: You learned to read somewhere. How did you learn to read?

E; I learned to read. myself. I went to Wilmington on a train and bought

a book from the porter and asked "him, "What kind of book is that you've

got?" He said, "This is a self-educating book. Everything in this'

book that you get in. school." So I told him to give me one of them

thaei He pays, "They're a dollar' and d half." I says, "Well,' I want

the book."' So he, I paid him for' the book and he give me the book.

\

LUM 216A

I went home and studied that book and there's some of everything

in that book that you get out of school.

D: Now how old were you then?

E; I' was, about six, seven, sixteen years old.

D: What were you doing on the train going to Wilmington?

E: Well, r had a sister down there that lived below Wilmington. I was

going' down to visit her.

D: Which one?

E: Catherine Ann.

D: So that was the beginning of, this was before you married, and that
*^e
wasAbeginning of you learning to read and write with this book you

bought from the porter. Do you recall the name of-that book?

E: No, I can't remeinber the name of that book right now.

D: You bought it from the porter on the train.

E: Bought it from the porter, yes. He told me there was everything in that

"book that you could get in school.

P.: Speaking of Wilmington, did you ever go down to Cherry Grove to the

beach?

E: Oh, yes, I've been down to Cherry Grove when I was a.boy about seven

or eight years old.

D: This was back in the 1890s then, lat 1890s. Would you tell me about

your trip, how you had planned to go and how you looked forward to

it and so forth and how you would get ready to going and how the

trip would 'be on your way down and so o?

E: Well, I weit with -my father. He went down and with a five, one-horse

*i ,

LU4 216A

Page 6. dib

wagon, went down with us. My father, Mr. Wesley Bullard,

"6oi Fro"n_ Locklear, Ellie Cloyd Lowry and William Blue,

we all five went down together with five wagons, one-horse wagons,

and drove all the way down to the beach and stayed down the rest
home,
of that week and the' drivedhon Tuesday of the next week. Took

us about two weeks to go down there and back by wagon and horses.

So that was my first trip to the beach. I was about seven or

eight years old at that time. Got on there and got -on the mule's

back and rode up and down the beach and I thought that was as much

sport as I wanted. I wasn't afraid of 'the mule falling down because

there wasn't no stumps or nothing like that. 5hu*ni-, over .

D: Did you have -a'covered wagon?

E: Yes, I had a covered wagon.

D: When would you usually leave and when gould you arrive?

E: Well, we'd leave home on Tuesday torniig and arrive down there about

Friday night, Friday evening.

D: How, long would you stay? > :

E: We'd stay till the next Tuesday ahd start home.

D: And when would you get home again?

D: $o it was a. two weeks, it was a two weeks trip. E: Two week drive; yes. D: What all would you bring with you'home?' E: Well,! we'd bring some salt fish-'fresh fish from down there. ;Sometimes I *' i \ * LUM 216A Page 7. dib we'd get out and hunt, kill possom, coons--there's plenty of them down there. Just every while you'd get around there you'd find them, D: Well, you sa4d fresa fsh, how would you keep them fresh till you got hbomS? E: Well, we'd get them, just kind of take them out of the water and pack'them down in a barrel, you know. We'd dress them like that and, or they 'd dress them for us and we'd buy them right then and pack them down in they'd salt them... D: As far as.. E: ...in what they called a pot. D: In other words they were fresh fish salted down. E: Yes. D: But they wouldn't be too, the time you arrived home you could cook some of them as fresh fish I suppose. E: Oh, yes. Yes, they... D: You know `J yes. E: We'd, we'd salt them when we'd get home, you know. D: Yes. E: Sali them again, you know, and then they'd stay all the rest of the year like that. Theykxe e+-wa&e alonglin the summer the next year. D: Did you enjoy fresh fish? E: Yes, I did and ........ecause we couldn't get them up here and Oe could enjoy them going down there cooking and eating. D: What about Lumbee River, didn't you fish the Lumbee River any? E: No, I never did fish in the Lumbee River. LUM 216A Page 7., dib D: Speaking of your diet, what was your diet like? You're eighty years old and you're inr rghf good health, what was your diet like? E: Well, most anything that anybody else would eat. Meat and bread ... O Stc S ;i : .l i l y .1 .1. 1 i l ,, I a I vI i and fitsh,-foree-and things like that. D; I believe you told me you never did drink milk. E; Never did drink any milk in my life. D: Never any milk in your life. E: No cheese or nothing like that. No butter, D: Yes, that's high cholesterol content. Maybe that's why you're living so long. You laid off the milk. They're saying now it's not so good jth for children and so on. They're not recommending niA 7ey drink lots of milk. 'Now while you were down would you do any hunting, would you see many squirrels? E: Plenty of squirrels down there, just about like the chickens is around i, the yard. You'd get out there add kill them with a lik4u)ooO.l nt-+ or- O_\ i_ i ._ They would run in front of you. Someone would take their gun and shoot them, just plenty of themj-e4 aeyindown there give us the privilege, the man that owned that parf of_ D: So you'd actually kill some with qi-k_+ooc.t nu.' E: Oh, you could. Yes, you could. They're all around you. Just take -f4'. lI j -Looc& uk If you hit him Lou'd kill him. D: Yes, E: -oLiJA kill them, you know, if lyou hive a rifle or a gun. D: Did you pitch tents when you arrived at the beach or when you stopped on the way down? Would you pitch a tent or what? f Ii':' L '- \___ __ _ LUM 216A ... Page 8, .;,- dib' - E: Well;.,it wasijusti'acordingitb hbii the weather looked. If it was raining or' anything ltke* thad, why, w 'd d't iup'"geteIn the wagon, covered wagon. We'd get ityouththei lit 'warIrAidink.it' We didn't care nothing for building no tents or nothing like that. We 'd just get in I the wagon and 'stay I while lthe rain as -goington. D: Now backlwhen you :were, ayboywh ireIdid yourldad doelmostilof his Shopping? ,i.;... pw i l yIi pit i i t l r l E: Well, around Pace I believe is mostly the place where he did his shopping. D: Now before Pace, when he was a boy, where did he do his shopping? E: You mean yy father? D: Yes. E: Well, he mostly done all the business as far back as I can remember with R. W. Littlemore. D: But I mean before that time when he was a boy, back before the Givil War. E: Oh, well, he... D: He was born in 1838, August the, August the 19th, 1838. Now did you ever hear him talk about.walking'to Fayetteville to shop? E: Oh, yes, I've heard about that, yes. I've heard him say that. D: Well, these people, these people who walked to Fayetteville, would they go and come back the same day? E: No, they wouldn't go. They'd probably be gone for a week maybe. And then he rafted timber down the Lumbee River to Georgetown'in them days. \ LUM 216A Page 9. dib D: Oh, yes, he did, he did take part in that? E: Oh, yes, yes, he, he went down there several trips. Take him two weeks after he'd get his timber in the river to drive down to Georgetown. D: Yes, I knbw\ without thls. How, how would they do this timber? E: They'd wrap At together, you know, in fleets, you know. Put several logs together. D: Would they tie, what would they tie them with? ;: With strips, you know. They'd get poles and nail them together, you know so they couldn't scatter and so they could handlethem, you know. So they'd drive down, they'd get a good raft of timber and they'd get on that raft, they'd live on that raft, they'd cook and eat on that, There'd probably be a couple of weeks to going down to Georgetown and then about the same thing coming back. You'd have to walk back to Georgetown, and after a way they'd get their little money. They'd have'to wrap the timber down there and they'd shake : it up down there at Georgetown. Pay them for it and then they'd get back, walk back from their homer D: They'd go right down Lumbee River into P.D. E: That's right. Go down Lumbee River right on into P.D. Trail. D: You say that usually this entire trip would be about a month? E: It'd take them two weeks to make' that trip and then they'd walk back f om Georgetown. A "-K A rgoF the timber. D: Yes, I imagine it'd be a good three weeks, maybe four. E: Yes, irnoimong ^_ about three or four weeks on making the round trip. LU 216A : , Page 10. ,dib; .. l ... D: Would they cook right on top of a log. E: Right on top of a log. D: And sleep on top of them. E: That's right. D; Do you, do you remember any stories that he told back in those days bout going to Georgetown? E: No, I don't remember. I wasn't old enough to remember in those days. D: Was this before the Civil War that he did this or after? E: I think it was after the Civil War, along about the time it was something like that. D: Do you know if he was married then? J E: No, I don't, I don't know whether he was married or not. D: Do you, do you recall any stories that he told you about the Georgetown trips? E: No, sir, I don't remember. I wasn't old enough to think much about it when he was talking about it. I didn't try to keep any record of it. D: Getting away from the beach now, when -you were a young boy, real young, say fifteen or sixteen, what, what were the young boys doing for fun back in your day? E: Well, they worked on the farm for their father and mother, father. D: What about fun and entertainment? E: Well, t{ey didn't know nothing about that, any entertainment. Lots of them going to school, you know, they might have what they call school lobaing and.bhg dinner out there then and that's about L ____________----------- .i I I I I. I 1 1. . LUM 216A Page 11, dib all the kids ever got in them days. D: Well, did they hunt, enjoy hunting and so on? E: Oh, yes, you go down to the beach you could hunt. D: Well, what about around here, didn't they they enjoy hunting? E: Yes, they hunted around in a section 'r6tu'. -' They had plenty of game than there ever was. a have plenty of it around Prospect there'.' Way down orn tihe'beacl own oy 'the hunk" there's just every, t., ," I I I therets,' squrrelsaad possoms a o s nd' codn and everything, just plenty of triem d w n t1 e ' hi iil:+++ i ,]- t I ir ,, i t l l s l : ." i of them down theYre. ai tc thnem anyone. D: In your young days how did your parents teach you to feel about a white man? E: Well... D: Or what did they, teach you and so forth? What did they tell you about white people? E: Well, I never did get out amongst'the white people. I didn't know nothing about them. My daddy always sit down probably if he had time and tell us his old story about something or another, you know, way back. But 1we were so little we didn't even know, understand what he was talking about, and after I got up old enough to know,why,he got out to work and I never had any. chance, you know, to pay any attention 0 toA much. what he was talking about. D: Well, how dq you feel about white people in your young days? E: Well, I'didn't know nothing about them. I didn't know one thing about them. I never had seen none of them much until I saw a white man PuI j LtJc fmrcftrl1 Q qo5hY>%. except Mr.' Elislah Brown. ^j ^j - LUM 216A Page 12. dib .' ,1 t 1 + I 'I. 1 1 I: t I t , D; In other words your contact with the white man was far removed. I l lI You didn't come in contact with. him very often. E: Not in later years probably even after I got grown and got to I I '. t I i .1 1 I working out in publte work, I began to talk with these white people I I i I i I i.+ +. i l i. i. r' ,I ) i > L .' y i 1 1 , and colored people.; D: Did you grow up to kindly dislike them? +' ..< .i r ," l'l i '.,i: l. l'r w n . E: Well, no, 1 liked the colored people and I liked the white people. They was all nice to me here, mighty good people. D: Well, didn't you realize back in those days that the white people were taking advantage of the Indian people? E: Well, yes, I'd hear my father and other people say things about that, but I was so small until I didn't think nothing about it, you know. P: Did you ever hear him talk about, did you ever hear your dad tell about them, white people taking the Indians land or putting things in his barn and claiming he stole them' and'so forth? E: No, I never did hear him say anything 'about that. I heard that after I got to be a grown man and I'd bear people speaking about that, you know, :iwy back the old people of the white people coming in and taking their, the Indian's land,.you know, from them.from out of Scotland and for Scotland I believe he said and some other place over there. D: Speaking of education did, do you remember or did you ever hear him tell of having their own schools and paying their own teachers and so forth. without the state doing'it? E: Yes, I remember that. I went to school along in them days. That's r ' ~ r. i LUM 216A Page 13. dib when I was going to school. D: Where were you going to school? E: I went to what they called the Barton Schoolhouse in Prospect. Do Now the Barton School, who paid the teachers? E: Well, I don't know about that. I never did... D; I mean when I say who, the state or the people. E: I think the people paid the teachers when it first started. The- parents would get together and pay him:. so much I think. D: I see. What was that school like, the school room? E: Well, it looked like, just like it is now. It wasn't as large and there wasrnt as many students then as there is now, you know. If uAS ju-5f a-r- guoeeokbe ordinary school building. Prospect was just a medium size building and up there to the Barton Schoolhouse was just an ordinary building. D: One room? E: One room, yes, and Prospect was dne room. Hto-e. D: And a fire-place or heater? E: Fire-plac. D: All of yod tried to sit around the fireplace? E: That's right. I would sit there.' D: What" kind of bench you have? E: We had a wboden bench, D: Did you hbVe A desk? E: Well, r think they had the desks built'in the back of the schoolhouse. 11 X LUM 216A Page 14. d4b D: Di4 you use a slate? E: Well, that's what we started with. at f rst, you know, and we'd use a slate. I'4 go to the blackboard sometimes and... D: Now- wth your books, 4did you use a, what did you call that thing you used to keep from wearing out your books, *sumf pads? E; Sum? D: Yes, did you have a little pad you put... E: Oh, yes, they, you had to keep your little paper like this thing here. Doubled it up and put it on to your thumb because that thumb would eat a hole slam through one of them leaves in the back. D: You didn't know that did you, Mrsl. Rogers. E: Yes, sir,.mine... D: I used to hear my mother talk about that. E: ...mine would eat a hole through fthe hole, that book slam to the back of it. D: Seems like it'd 'take you a long time to learn that page. You need to turn that page. t E: We'd turn it, but it'd be right over the next page, that same thing. It wouldn't take ou long to get through that leaf. When you started the book you'd start in there, you'd hold it with your thumb, you know, a book like that. Wouldn't be but a few weeks before the sweat or something done eat a hole through" that fnd they just keep on eating Sand eating"and the leaves would be coming up above your thumb, you know, and your thumb is going on down toward the back of the book. ?ckor- S.. 4 'oC be on the back. You couldn't' the leaves down then. They just come up, yoO know. _ ____ ________ p__-_______________'' i--------------- ----- LUM 216A Page 15. dib D: Was there more drinking going on in your young days or would you say more today among the Indian people? E: I didn't understand just what... D: Did you have more people drinking alcohol in the young, in your young days or more today? E; Well, they drank pretty bad in them days. Most, everybody mostly would drink pretty well.Ho0i oi 4et h1- u as a little rough some places. D: What do you mean by rough? E; Well, they'd fight, shoot at one anothrr,,you know. sometimes kill' somebody. D: Do you think the -men back then were braver than they are today? E: Well, I don't think so. I thinkthey All come along about the same wajy same-.thing. I don't think there's much change in them. They didn't have no education in themidays,3you know. The father, the mother didn't have any education Aand they couldn't teach the thild and what little schooling they got to about three months. D: Well, now%'in your boyhood days what was the most important thing that you' look forward to? Say when you were twelve, fifteen years old o or something, what was the most important thing that you'd always look forward to? E: Well, I' didn't have no particular things, working all the time in the new ground ditching, my daddy would have te a ditching and a clearing 'and all the time. D: Well', didn't you hve, look forward to ioing something? To have a little funl? L _____Ii LUM 216A Page 16. dib E: Well, we didn't know nothing about nothing like that much. D: Well, you'd look forward to 'going to the beach, wouldn't you? E: Well, that was years after, well, later on after that. I didn't go but one time when I was a boy. I went one time. D: It thought maybe you went every year. E: No, no. One time till I got married and got grown and went myself. D: And what did you think the beach was like when you first stared as a boy?' E: Well, it just looked like a big ocean of water there. You... D: You have never read about it, have you? E: I've never read about it nor saw'it. We got on our mules back and rode tp and down the beach. We enjoyed that. That was good riding. You get up there and you could run a mile down the beach, you know, was on your mule's back, back and ride all you wanted to. D: Did the puIllen' fsh out with the netsnlike they do today? E: Yes,q they had nets then. Yes, they had the same thing then that they've got how,....net on the ground. They'd pick them up and stand them up or fit4': tiem up in barrels and thingsi'you know, just about abet like they do now, r D: Now when you arrived at the beach, of course, there was lots of people there fror4 other places and so forth, did you all kindly get in your ! own group or did all of you mix together with the whites and the black and all? How did you do? E: At the beach? Well, there would iiever'be nobody down there. 1 :h 1 r I I II LUM 216A t Page 17. i', .. il iu dib I, '' i :'-1 !, t.t.: i u 1 V F -r l 1,. ,,b ,l y Ilt Iw n i l k ., I would never see anybody around there then except the people that'd be coming out there, country down there. D: Well, there'd be people there from other places. E: Well, there'd be very few, very few people there. D: Would you all associate With the other people there? E; We was always getting in a group ourselves and they'd get over in another group and that's the way it would work out. B: You didn't mix much with them? E: No, we didn't bother with them. They didn't bother us and we didn't bother with them. D: So you had your first school. How did the Board of Education feel about giving you supplies and so forth, things that you needed for this schooling'you had asked them for? E: Well, I didn't know. You had to go to school long enough to know just... D: No, I mean your school here in Hoke County, how did... E: Oh, they was willing to go out ahead and help me to get the school organized. Told me to find a place --Ld- build it and I could have it. D: But your school was never like the whites, like that big brick building here in Jacobs Point. There was quite a difference between those schools, wasn't it? E: Oh, yes./ Well,Aephow they built' that school, they didn't use it but about two years before '4 '. a, and went that Rapan Bf. So we didn't get no school till they built ... D: Well, now when they built this big brick white school building at Sr. * _______ LUM 216A i I ., '. 1 Page 18. d' !i I . Antioc, why didn't they give that 't Itihe Idans' aft'r they moved to Rapanville? in E: Well, some of 'them '' want'a' ttl' giV! i' to us and some didn't. So "' thatwas " i-fe W L't ]"":"..' ". ". I'-. ,, ,., ',,, ,.*..,.,,,, ,'.,, D; Why didn't they want you all to have that school? E: Well, I never did learn why. I never did talk to them about it, you know.' D: What happened to that school? E: Well, it went dead at Antioc. They didn't, they didn't teach there - but two or three years in that building before they left. D: What happened to the building after they moved out? E: It's there yet. D: And that was a right nice brick building that you all would have been glad to have. E: Oh, yes, it's a nice building all right. D: But they didn't want the Indians to have it. E: Well, some of them wanted the Indians to have it and some didn't. That's the way, that's what theytsaid. D: Who bought that school? E: I don't know whether it's ever been bought yet-unless WalterlGibson bought it. I' believe he finally bought that. D: How iuch did he pay for it, Mrs. 'Roger? R: I don't have any idea at all, but I imagine it was just a nominal sum. E: I believe ihe paid ten thousand dollars for it or something like that. D: Mas." Rogezs, what was your idea as to why they didn't want them to have this school? LU 216A Page 19. *dib i i \,l i (.' i ;;i ,/ Dill 'i(Lc'..i J. .; [ v> \;lio L. lil y d i,ii l' t %. l III[ R: Well, I can only offer my op union based on observations based on my little knowledge of the agricultural economy in Robeson and surrounding counties. It was not economically beneficial to the white man to encourage the Indians to have education because they wouldn't want to work the farms for nothing and they would know, too, when they were being cheated. D: So you're saying that they would only want them to have just a little, not much... R: Only what the law demanded and.,- .... D: And what they really demanded. R: Right. D: And they would hope that they wouldn't demand too much. R: Right, only, they, I think they only gave what, what they had to in order o L556OSUjI their conscience and try to satisfy the la6 in the least degree. D: Now here we'll:-say your two are what, three generations apart? Four? Yed, yes, you are one, two, three, three generations apart and I wonder what the thinking is now here on the school situation. How do yod view it today, will you tell me something, Mrs. Rogers? You re teaching what is considered the best high school of Hoke County and you teach twelfth grade English and you teach white students, black students, Indian students and so forth. Would you comment on this? r c R: Well, I think the school system itself is a fine school system and I think the attitude of the Board of Education and the principal under whom' I'm working is, couldn't berbetter, and I don't know 3b LUM 216A Page 20. dib whether it's because they had to integrate and had to change I l iC; 1 I I 1 their attitudes or what, but for whatever reason I'm glad it's as it is. But I think as far as students' attitudes, and I'm not blaming the students all together for this, poor education is lamentable, especially the Indian students, and I think one S1' I I 'tl I Ii i. ,, ) it reason for this is that he is such a small percentage of the total student population and he feels lost and overwhelmed in this situation. Besides that education is really not encouraged in the Indian homes as much,:Il think, as it is in the white and 4 i I I, i4 ii,,l ,l, I h ', n l i i i I, the black home. Now I don't know why I ha that feeling. I guess it's because of the attitude of the students thae I 'bb'served in the classrooms. They don't ive that much for education. They don't want to go beyond the)high school level to any extent. I don't know how many seniors we had this time from Hoke High, Indian seniors who went or planned to go on to college, but I don't think it was more than three or four if that many, and I think I came in contact with more Indian students than the other twelfth grade ft.r'\-f D: Well, there must be a reason forlthis.: What would you... R: I know, I know there is a reason and well, I know there's more than one reason and I guess I would have to look at what the students do after they.get out and try to assess what that reason is also, because when the Indian students get out of high school they get a job to make some money. They want that money in their hands that they won't be having if they gd on to college or go to somecother school, and now,1you might not' think that this would te typical but it's, it's becoming more and more typical for the Indian boys especially to have his own car LUM 216A Page 21. dib before he gets out of high school and his whole life is planned around that automobile right now, and that's why' he has to work - to support that automobile. He just doesn't, he just doestAe A .. anr he doesn't have that spirit of being willing to put off pleasures and things to start for that education that he has to have. D: How'do you, how are you treated by your friends in the school profession at school? R: Well, I couldn't be more satisfied with my treatment there either. D: I've always felt personally as a Lumbee Indian myself, there seems to be some difference between whites we'll say, on the professional level and then socially mixing with Htrv_, on Sunday afternoon. Would you comment on this? R: Well, there is, there is no social mixing among the faculty at Hoke High beyond the professional atmosphere of the school unless maybe it'would be isolated individuals who go on a shopping spree or something, but as far as communicating socially or in social circles,'it's just not done yet. D: Do'you ever have any of your friends to come out? You all ever take a tkip or anything together, you'and any of,the white people? R: No, nonerwhatsoever. This one lady, boris Hastings, she and' I go around'pretty much together all the time because we have our rree p periods together and she has invited me to her home for lunch and I've gon4 and of course I'd reciprocate except that the time that h f t LUM 216A Page 22. dib we have to communicate during school or to socialize during school is limited, so we just don't do that. And I think to be perfectly honest I, I don't feel that she would really be too enthused about coming to my home. D: And actually you're not too enthused going to hers. R: Well, no, I, I really honestly would not feel comfortable going to her home to participate in any social affair with her circle of friends. D: So I guess it's about as broad one way as it is another. R: Yes, yes. D: Do you fell that prejudice exists among Indians as much as among the whites? R: Ye, I do. I have to say this honestly and I tell you I guess one thing that brought this to my attention a long time before I ever had any hopes of going to college andireally being able to analyze the situation'like this, was th lan-Indian class at Maxton when the .lai "&AC Indians had their mutual riots. I went over there and I fully expected to see what I sa*. D: You, are you saying that you attended the clan rally in '58.at... R: Right. 5 X 1 D: Yes', tell me about this. R: Well, my husband and I and Henry, Mr. TDial's son, and his wife whd was, iell, she wasn't his wife thin but she is now, we knew that the meeting was going to bd over there and so we decided to go and we went and we were all ebccited about what we were going to i;, ?. l !: I: ? LUM 216A" Page 23. dib see because we knew that the day had passed when the Indians wasn't going to cower no more, and so when we got there it was just a few, minutes before the thing got started and the cars were, had lined both sides of:the road and as I remember there were three bare bulbs, bulbs, light bulbs hanging on some poles stuck in the ground and that was the only light there. Neither one of those bulbs as I remember, was too close to the speakers stand which was already erected. But anyway by the time that we had gotten turned around and headed back the way which we had come in everybody kind of flowed across the road from the cars afd went over near the speaker's stand and of course when the first shot rang out that meant the lights were gone and everybody just started generally shooting and I really think that most people must have shot up in the air because nobody god injured that I know of. D: Now how many people would you estimateito be there? R: Well, I think that there was somewhereein the neighborhood of two hundred and fifty to three hundred, but what I went to see I saw and I can't honestly say that I didn'teenjoy it. But I also had another feeling. I saw something in odr people also that was not pretty. t D: And what was that? 9 R: It was the hate and the anger and the same kind of frustration& and prejudice 'that they were objecting to.' They were expressing the same thing. Maybe they were a little more justified and if you can (* l .E.: LUM 216A 1I 1'1 ' Page 24. i 11: 1),. /b h .y uf-'r a i t I I i l I : i : jt:t. i I it' l i say that you are ever justified in violently assaulting anybody, but maybe the intent was not to violently assault and just to violently frighten. Whatever it was the lan was frightened and they left, but also...I left,there was plenty of sympathy for them because I realized how stupid and ignorant these people were and we were behaving in the same way. D: Let's see, a question here. Let's see, describe some more of the Slain rally at Maxton. R: As far as I am able to determine the speaker that night never appeared on the platform. He may have begun to appear and maybe that's when the shots started. I don't know, but I know, though, about twdhty-five or thirty shots fired and with that many shots being fired I don't think the intent and the purpose of the clash was to shed blood. If it had been thdre was ample opportunity to shed the blood. I think it was to fight more than to mame and o K kill. -s ,i. t m9e a point. D: Now if they, if they had resisted you think the Indians of course, there may have been some bloodshed. R: Right, I fully believe there would have been some bloodshed, but I knew a week before we had planned ahead when we heard that the meeting was'going to be over there. I had, I had told my husband that there was'going'to be-a riot and I knew it would be and of course he knew there wasi'going to be a riot, but he didn't call it a riot. I guess he, he'd considered it the last straw. i *i ' LUM 216A Page 25. dib D: Mrs. Rogers, sometime ago when you were at Pembroke State University you said something to me about the curriculum, you said something about curriculum. In other words you were speaking specifically about the treatment of the native Americans, the American Indians in the North Carolina textbooks and you did something about that. Would you'tell me about this incident and the response and so forth and so on and how you look at it today and what you're doing and so forth. R: Well, the textbook in question is entitled, Your Country and Mine, which is 1 think ironic because the...' D: What grade? R: Fifth grade, fifth grade level, because the textbook really doesn't ). live up to that in the full sense of the title and the reason I say that is the image of the American Indian in there which is portrayed as a coward and a robber and he's bloodthirsty and 'he's really kind of stupid. He's childlike. And I didn't think too much about this, so I wrote Dr. Craig Phillips, who is state superintendent of public instruction, and he didn't answer my letter, but one of his assistants did and he told m6 a lot of things which amounted to really'nothing about the fact that they have supplementary ma- terials t6 use along with these textbooks to amplify some of these' things and to really, to elucidate somi of the things that the textbooks might have presented id a manner unfavorable to the Ameri- can Indian, but I think it was a'lot of rot in a way of getting rid L: C ;H ' I i ', \ i I [ I T V I I I . I- I 1W i l -I, i"L ,' ,,' i I ' 14UH 216A Page 26. dib of me. And I think he, he is not as wise as I think state superin- tendent o pub4.l -enstruction should be to overlook an ethnic stereotype in a social studies group which really has no place there. History is supposed to be fact and I think they left out a lot of facts. As a matter of fact I'm sure they did and they elaborated and made many fairy tales to make a point about the heroism of the caucasian Americans to the detriment of the Ameri- can Indian and I did not get any further wiirr teSuJt4S after having written Mr. Phillips about the textbook. But a friend of mine who was in college with me, she is: working in Washington,D.C. this summer with the Commission on Civil Rights, and she remembered and she gave me a form to use in criticizing the book and to mail back to her for use in the civilr'rights, some civil rights project or something. But anyway that'sfwhat i'm presently doing about it. ButI think it's, it's tragic that they would take our tax money andmisuse it this way. If, I think it would be better not to have any social studies in the fifth grade at all if this is what they're goitg to waste their money on, and give us the money to build schools with. D: Now how mdny in the twelfth grade in Hoke, how many Indians do you teach, how many black and how many whites do, could you give me some breakdown on some of your classes? R: Well, I hAd, I had about a hundred and fifty-three students all to- gether and I think I took a tally one time and I had about sixteen E. t 1 I f, ^ * ..,- i 'I. ,'l i i iI ,_ ._, ___i. .,, i_ _. LUM 216A *~ i I 11.1 ll 11 ; : l 1 11t:l 1: .I l i I I h ti. l 1 , Page 27. dib Pag llitt2l. .1. t il. a l lI y ,i Lw I., ;[1!J 1 l,:ii ., Indians and then the rest, then the remainder was about fifty percent, you know. It was better than fifty percent black because, because of the ability levels that I had. It was probably about sixty percent black and forty percent white ._e . D: With sixteen Indians out of how many, about a hundred students? R: I had sixteen Indians out of a hundred and fifty-three. See, that's how many I had, and the other twelfth grade ia teacher, she had about a hundred and seventeen students a day and she didn't have that many Indian students because she, she had mostly college prep students. D: The Indians are very much in the minority in Hoke County with black and white... R: Well, black is the majority. D: Black is the majority. R: Black is the majority. : D: Nov would you tell me something about the experience, do you find any association between Indians and white or black and Indians and or do all of them just do their 'own t~ing? R: Well, in ithe classroom you see them group together in their own little racial cliques. r I D: You mean they sit separate in the classrooms mostly? R: Right, right, and I don't think it's basically a thing of race. I think it's just natural that anybody would congregate with his own'friends and because we've been raised to live separately, of ; [ * LUM 216A Page 28. dib course our friends all belong to the same race basically.until you get in the integrated school where you do have maybe a friend who is black or a friend who is white. But still you may be seen around campus with him and you participate in some of the extra- curricular organizations with him, when you get in the classroom you naturally gravitate toward your own racial friends. 0- D: Do you try to break them up and alphabetize the group byAseating arrangement or anything? R: Yes, I do this periodically not just to break up the racial groups but because these friends get together and they want to take a social hour every now and then and you have to get them separated so that they can realize that it's supposed to be an instructional ve period. But I, I think I haj a good relationship with my students. I had some personality conflicts but Ilcan honestly say that I didn't have any racial conflicts.' Evidentally they thought I was mainly a pretty nice guy because I wag elected senior teacher of the year. honor- D: Very goodA senior teacher of the yeaf. By the senior students? R: Yes, uh huMh. D: And do yod see much difference iri the young generation and say the teaching generation, you know, amoig students... R: In what .ay? D: ... a far as breaking racial barriers? ' R: Well, I honestly think there is more, &at the, the teaching genera- tion is mjre inclined toward that, that kind of thing than th6 stu- danti are.1 F i c : LUM 216A Page 29. dib vi 7 I i I !l .. ; I i l I I i ' -d t It l I -d l I i i 1 1, i ii 4 1 n ii I t I D: You mean breaking it? R: Right, because the students that I had are in that phase of their life where they're Kltd you know, on the lookout for the mate that they're going to live with the rest of their lives, and they're not too interested in marrying somebody else of another race because it's not socially or economically desirable, because we still have strong prejudicial attitudes in our society, and the kids are realistic. D: So I guess realistically speaking, as a matter of fact my mother always told me to marry Indians and there were five of us and of course then.we did and... R: Fine. D: ...I suppose it has certain advantages'and the same goes for the white or the black. R: And then, too, I really think, I'thinkit would take a super strong person to marry somebody of another rate, especially and live in our community and fight the resistance all his life. I think when you consider somebody in matrying'you think now how much resistence am I going to get from my friends, from my parents and the people that I'm going to be close to the rest of my life, and Jo sometimes you haveAdefer, well, most of them to defer these attitudes because'it's just too much to fight all your life. D: Yes, I suppose so. Too many battles. R: Oh, you have too many battles to fight in your life to use all your 1 5 :-r LUM 216A Page 30. dib energies fighting one and it's not a defeatest attitude. It's a realistic one. You have to live in this world and you want to live among people that you love and know that gives you a feeling of security. So you have to decipher their attitudes somewhat. D: How do you feel that minority groups can teach identity and still not teach prejudice? R: Well, one way would be to get rid of the fifth grade textbook that we're using, social studies textbook, because I think that defeats any, any constructive purpose we could have in teaching racial identity without teaching'prejudice, because it's books like this that tend to perpetuate prejudice. And another thing is to show people as people, which I think the social studies textbook again could do.rather than showing the Indian as some- body stupid who just runs into a group,;of soldiers who has a gun. Teach the fact that this was part of the Indians belief about showing his manhood. If he could makee:the coup, which is touching his enemy without getting injured, he was really considered a hero in ttat battle that day. But thelway we've been shown on television and in social studies textbooks this was stupid and it was a childlike thing to do, which in actuality was not. Show how people have some of the same common problems like entry into manhood. 3hat is it that the whfte American- uses to signify'that he's becoming a man? One of the things is to make plans for when you get ott of school. Another thing is to get a car.and another ', : .t1 < ^ t y' . .1 I 9 ILi i, LUM 216A ; Page 31. db thing is to become engaged to la, igl and get' married. Well, what Ssh could do: ies to .shot how people in. other cultures' do; this same thing in their own way, whete, we. cad' t downgrade, other cultures because they don't doi the same way that whJtte Ametrian culture has devised for its toffspriingA!r i it doesn'tmean that they are back- ward or primitive,' because! many timers they ecouild teach us some lessons just like. the reenet tstfone,:age culture that was I discovered in the Philipines. They don't have any cavities because they never had any, any sugar and something, or salt. So there's some- thing to be learned, and they also had a method for cleansing their teeth. This thing about teaching racial identity, I think we have to in some way get the people responsible for curriculum development and educate parents and begin educating students to see people as, as people.and, and to, to awaken theif conscience in some way because they're never really going to do anything until you find something that you can stimulate besides this concept of curriculum Wrt-i These social study textbooks, which i' my pet peeve, are really a lot of fairy tales in many ways, and I was taught that history was supposed to be objective and present the facts as they happened without any glossing over or candycoating and whatnot. But we don't get3it that way. We criticize the Russians for rewriting his- tory tokwhichver premier is in! office, but we do the same thing for IwhichTver of our ethnic groups id in the majority. D: In teaching the three races do ybu feel that you have as many friends among the Indians, whites percentage-wise and so forth? 1 '" i' LUM 216A Page 32. dib R: No, I really don t, because I, I think when it comes down to things like showing that you're a warm person or can be a warm and understanding person, I think the black child is more receptive and more appreciative than the white child and maybe it's because, I mean that I feil that way, but I get the feeling that, that the white kids are, think ..you're not doing them any great favor itEd'A 1Aher, and it doesn't make any difference you're going to have to pass them anyway. But with the black kids it was different.. I only had one black girl that showed any hostility toward me at the beginning of the year, and she plainly told me in her autobiography that she would prefer to have a black teacher and I wrote her a note on her paper and I said, "Well, I hope race doesn't make any difference in this classA" And by the end of the secoAd six weeks she and I were getting along fine. Of'course we didn't have any problems, any arguments or anything, but she found out that I was not going to hold blackness against her. D: Did any white student ever say that she'd rather have a white student,'teacher? R: No,' noneenever said that, but Pihave one girl who, she went to Sor the guidance office and told the guidAnce counselA3 that I was prejudiceaand that's why we were having such a terrible time getting along, and which is really not so, and I don't know what was wrong with, with Diane. I do know she had a home problem and she had dome from a school system, sh& had come from Asheville where they had had a lot of racial problems, and I think I ,1 r -- I - LUM 216A . Page 33. : ' that she-wbtrild probably warr" rac er bls -a.are> but she told the 'guidance counselor thatd I tilted ier' because she was white and' ail this that 'add t'he v'ther. "but she,' but I never did take any points from' her.' 1 as always ar lrni grading her and so after'that I'bolid her, 1Y said'I Id n' t'are what color she was', 'but i 'waB 'edd up 'with'hh' add thal 'ii was' 'tting pretty late' ixi 'the 'ye' t61, her b1" w^N *6f"atd le b''change classes, but if she wouldn't straighten up she was going to have to get out of my class, and I told Mr. Maynor that I didn't dislike Diane at the first of the year, but I was rapidly coming towards d;spising'her. But she straightened up. I guess she thought I must have meant business after that time. She straightened up and by the end of the year she was one of 'sweetest people I had in my class. D: Well, I certainly enjoyed this interview with my uncle, Elisha Dial, the son of Marcus Dial, ana some of the stories relate: way back because Marcus was born October the, August the 19th, 1838, and here we have a span of three generations. Hoke County has moved from a position where there were no Indian schools to where they had a one-teacher Indian school, to where Mrs. Rogers now works in an integrated situationiand yet racially-speaking mankind still hasn't gotten to the point'where-he looks at man as man. Per- haps there is prejudice among the blacks, among the red and among the 'white and oftentimes each like their own little social groups to do their'own thing, but th 46 being awarded the award of senior LUM 216A Page 34. dib teacher of the year seems to show that she has worked well into a situation and seems to be making lots of progress. Perhaps a few hundred years from today there'll be a difference. , A-i /"r' Full Text PAGE 1 LU]1 216.1\ Page 1. II-iTE~VI_EWEE.: INTERVIEWER: Adolph Dial July.26, 1971 D: Testing one, two~ Te~t~ng one, two. Testing one, two. Testing one, two. Tes-tng sna, two~ ';res-t:fng Testing one, two. Testing one, two. Testing one, two. Testing one, two. Testing Testing one, two. Te.sting one, two. Testing one, two. Testing one, two. Testing. Testing. This ~s July th~a" 26th, 1971. . Adolph Dial speaking, Pembroke ~tate University; fr-ofessor of History and Government. I'm here in Hpke. County-_wfth my uncle, Elisha Dial, and his, and bis granddaughter in-law-, Mrs. Betty Rogers. Mrs. Betty Rogers is one <:>f my former ~tudents at l'rospect: Sch.ool and also Pembroke State University. What if! your age? I'-m go;i:ng to call you, Mr. Dial in order to make this . e.a~ie':t'. Mr. Dial, wh.at :f:s your age? Eighty. I D: Efghty, what, what yea~ did you C07lle to Hok~ County? E; '17 I believe. D: You moved here. in 1917. I believe you said you married in 1914? ~: Yes. D: Speak. a little louder. Wh.at was Hoke County like when you came here? Wha,t was, the schpol sit-uation like when you came here? Were there any schpols for Indian children at that time? E: No, sir, no, no 1tcbools for Inqfans. p: J;tow-did you go about getting the school started? ~-= Well, l met the. Board ot Education and they.' told me to go back and PAGE 2 l LUM 216A Page 2. I , ..., ; ,I see howmany, I 1could -find of students~ If I 'could 1 get thirty they would give me a tsacher~ 1 We[li, â€¢I came' back and [tot! â€¢the inumber that they asked for, lwertb 1 ba.ck/ the/ superirttendent told me, he said, "Well, you've:,got',t~nurltba'.d~-"!,f[elsaYs!~i '!Now~ go get you a teacher, 'find you a teach:et 1 rs0~e~rieite_t11 1 v So 1 'I 1 wlertt! -back 1 aown to, around , ---Oxendine and yiea.:d.e.d, with her to take the school. D: Do you remember what they paid her? E: I think about forty dollars or something like that a month. D: Now so you began with one, :you began with one, one teacher. This was in the 1920s I suppose. E: Yes, bega~ with. one teacher. D: Did you nave a school bus at this time? E: No, we didn't have any school bus. D: How long before you had a school bus? E: Oh, five or si:x years I re,ckon before we got a school bus. D: How far would some of the students have to walk to school? E: Well, three or four miles, five. D: Some walked as far as five miles? E: That's right, about D: This wasa one-teacher school? E: One teaqher, one teacher-school. D: Now when they finished their, you didn't have a high school, did you? E: No, sir. " PAGE 3 LUM 216.E\ Page 3. dib D: So they ~ent a fewyears and then stopped out and went to work on the farm most of them? E: That's right. They went_ to the farm after they quit school. That's a six months, school at that time. D: Now how-many month.a.' school did they have when you were a boy? E: Well, about three -months Ibelieve when I started school. D: Now when you_, you went to school tell me about some of your earlier childhood days. A while ago you remarked about drinking water out of a stream and so forth. Suppose you tell me this story. E: Well, we didn't have. anything to:drink-:water out ot at that time but the well. D: This, is down in Robeson County. E: Yes, that's Robeson County, old Prospect, and we went to the swamp to drink the water out of the run because the well was filled up with these green -'be..Le.rs We:.. ca.Hecl-utef"J\.' an:d we\ couldn â€¢t drink that water. We'd go down to the branch and lie down on our stomach and drink the water out of the run and it was pretty:and clear. It looked good and it was gootl and then we'd go back to the school house,,get our dinner and eat that, ~e ready for school. That would be at noon.....time. We didn't get any water,only at recess or at noontime to drink. The teacher I was, gofng to sch_ool to was Reverend Moore, W. L. Moorep and his daughter' told me something down at the swamp and told me that just want -me to sp~ak :J:t" .CbS :i~:w PAGE 4 LUX 216A dib ' boys had did in the branch and . they couldn't get no water to drink because they had pee.din the swamp into th.erun. And so she told me to tell Mr. Moore about it. So I got back to the school house and Igot out and I: told hitn, ~ ' says ~ 1 "Miss Emma told tne to tell you 11 that th.e: boys h.ad peed :t.n th . e swamp and we couldn't get any water to ct,::-tnk down there. u And he told one of the students there, William Blii~,"tatte ,ne down to, out to the well and wash my mouth out . with a, corn cob," and h~ satd, 81 Well '. ; we canâ€¢ t find, no corn cobs around . I here. 0 Ue says, "Take you up a huckleberi:y . to . scrul> "' your mouth out." Well, I didn't do that. I told him if I had to do that we'd go back just like I came. :n D: So you went on back. _p'o you rem~ber, do you remember any other interesting tales . in your real ear , ly days, . any fun or se-rious business when you were in school? 1 ; ' \ . E: Well, I didn't get to go to school but : just a little while arid I didn't get a.chance. to go for just a few days school at that time and : on the next year I got to go , a few days and that was just about all ' that !I> got. 'two o,:; three months schooling was all that l' got. D: You learnid to read somewhere. How di& you learn to read? E:; I learned ' to t-eacl' : myse.lf. I went to Wilmington on a train and bought a boolt from tha porter and asked 11 hill\, ''What kind of book is that you've got?'' He : said, "This is a self-educating book. Everything in this ' book that you ge.t in. schpol." So ' I told h:i:tn to give me one of them then l lie CJ~ys, ''The.y-~J:le a dollar ' and ,f half. n I says, "Weli 1 ~ I want ~h-e book.'' ~ ~o ha~ I pai . d him fot;" i the bbok and he give me the book. \ '\ t ' \ t PAGE 5 L-W,t 216A d;i,b I went . holl\e and studied that book and there'a some of everything in that book that you _get out of school. D: Now how old were you then? ~: I was, about si.- PAGE 6 Ltn1 216A Page. 6. dib wagon, went down with us. My fath.er~ Mr. Wesley Bullard, . . . . . . . bi~ Fra.f\K. lio~kle.ar, Ellie Cloyd Lo;J-ry and Wi.lliam Blue, we all five. went down. t_ogether with five wagons, one-horse wagons, ~nd drove all th.eway down to the beach and stayed down the rest home.. . of tl1at week an~ the:n.'drived~on Tuesday of the next week. Took ~s about two weeks to go down there arid back by wagon and horses . So that was my tirst trip to the beach. I was about seven or eight years ~ld at that time. Got on there and got -on themule's back and rode up and down th.e beach and I thought that was as much sport as t wanted~ I' wasn't afraid of 'the. mule falling down because the.re wasn"t no s-tumps or nothing li_ke that.--1-b 5~\e... over D: Did you have 'a ~covered wagon? E: Yes, l had a covered wagon. , D: When would 1 you usually leave and when would, you arrive? . \ E: Well~ we'd leave home on Tuesday tnornitig and arrive down -j, ' '.Friday1ni,ght, Friday evening. D: Uow,long would you stay? E: We'd stay till th.e. ne:xt Tuesday ahd sta~t home. D: And when would you get.home again1 E: About nexti:Frj:day. D: So :tt: was a. two week~, ;U: was a two weeks trip. E: Two wee1,J clri,ve/yes. D: What all would you brhlg w.lth you 'home?.J there about E: Well,1 we 'd' bring some salt: fish~ ~fresh fish from down there. ;Sometimes L ___ _____._ __________ ..,.;____ _______________ _ PAGE 7 LUJ'I 216A Fage 7. dib 11 we'd get out and hunt, kill possom, coons--there's plenty of them down there. Just every whtle you'd get around there you'd find tl'lem.~ D: Well, you s~f.d ~resll. f .ah, how would. you keep them fresh till you g9t h.oma.1 E: We.11, we'd get them, just kind of take them out of the water and packthem down in a barrel, you know. We'd dresa th~ like that and, or they'd dress them for us and we'd buy them right then and pack them down in they~d salt them D: As far as; E: in what they called a pot. D: In other words they were fresh fish salted down. E: Yeso D: But they wouldn't be too, the time you arrived home you could cook some of them as fresh fish I suppose. E: Oh, yes. Yes, they D: You Ltcnow_:l ___ ,""yes. E: We'd, we'd salt thexq when we'd get home, you know. D: YesJ E: Salt themtagain, you know, and then thJy'd stay all the rest of the 'c:J.. hotc:1. t.v..-b' year like ~that. Th.eyi\ ahft1:1s nae ~a.long I in the summer the next year. D: Did yo1;1,lenj oy fresh fish? E: Yes, I did' ____ t:recause we couldn't get them up here and~ could enjoy them going down there cooking and eating . D: What about Lumbee River, didn't you fish the Lumbee River any? E: No, 1 1 neve:r d:td fish :tn the Lumbee River. :1. PAGE 8 LUM 2161\ Page 7. I. ' ' :!ii . 1 , , ,,/,,! I;,,, 1 I J. r ( dib. 1 I' I I', ' I " I j I ' I : I. l , ... , I , , II I I I I ,. D: Speaking of your diet, what was your dlet like?. Yo~'re eightr.years I i LI.. I I I /\ l I' i) l' l { . I I i. old and youâ€¢~~ t~ ~tgh~good health~ what was you~ diet like? E: Well, -~ost a.nything th;:1,t anybody else would eat. Neat and bread ... o~Ste.c5 l:iv, ... ,lidit'I ;1â€¢" 1.i .. 1, ,I,, 1.,,,,,1, ,. l'.1,.,1 ~nd f~h., -1toraes and tlungs like tha,t. i ! . ! . i . i '. I : , J . : ; , : . ; .. : : l \' D; l; belt.eve you told -D\e you never di-d dr;tnk -,ni.lk. E:: Never di"---0-A.take their gun and shoot them, just plenty of them,jue~ le,ing down . . / there gtve u& the privilege, the man that owned that par~ of _____ So you'd actually kill som,e with /1'.+woocl nu_+ ~: Oh, you cduld. Ye_s, you could. They're alLaround you. Just take ......... ,tk 11 q ~-f-tucocl nu..t lf. you hi't him ryou 'd kill him. D: Yes~ E: .1"'-l!. L.OOu..ld. kill them., you know, if lyou ha.Ive a rifle or a gun . D: Did you pitch tents when you a-rri~ed at! the beach or when you stopped on the way down? Would you pitch a tent or what? n PAGE 9 '. I (I , '! I I , LUM 216A ' i E: Well.-~dt wasijusti'actcord~ngitb hbvy 1 the w~ather looked. If it was ' ra:t.n:t.ngâ€¢or I anytbing likeâ€¢ bhatl j why, >weâ€¢ d :set 1 1 getr :i.n tlie wagon, covered wagon'. We:"d get I :lt::outl~hen ii't ;'Was"rairi:i!.ng.i I I -We didn't care nothing for bullding no tents or nothing like that. We'd E: Well, around facet believe 1s mostly the place where he did his shopp;t.ng. D; Now before Pace, when he was a boy, where did he do his shopping? E.: You mean ,my fa,ther? D: Yes. E: Well, he -niostly done all the business as far back as I can remember with R. w.: Littlemore. I D: But~ ,mean be~ore that time whenhe was a qoy, back before the Givil War. E: Oh, well, the ... D: He vas born in 1838, August the, August the 19th, 1838. Now did you ever-hearh:tm_ talk about.walking'to Fayetteville to shop? E: Oh, yes, I've heard about that, yes. I've heard him say that. D: Well, these people, these people who walked to Fayetteville, would they go and come back th~ same day? E: No, they wouldn't go. They'd probably be gone for a week maybe. And thenh~ tafted-~:llnber down the Lum~ee River to Georgetown'in them .. day&. \ ~---~-___:___---~---------------------= PAGE 10 'Llm 216A Page 9. 1 1, dib I ' ' D: Oh, yes-~ he d~d, h.e did take part in that? .l ',! E: Oh, ye.s, yes, he, ne went down there several trips. Take him two weeks after he'd get hts timber in the river to drive down to George.town. l., I I I D: Ye_s, I' knowsa,'f.tout t~s. How, how would they do this timber? E .â€¢ . . They'd wrap tt together~ you know, in fleets, you know. Put several ' L .. ' l. !, logs together~ D: Would they tie, what would they tie them with? Wtth. strips, you know. They'd get poles and nail them together, you ltnow> so they couldn't scatter and so they could handle,t~em, you ' I I' ! ' ; '! l ' know-. So they'd drive down, they'd get a good raft of timber and they'd l ', I get on that ~aft, they'd live on that raft, they'd cook and eat on t~~. There'd probably be a couple of weeks to going down to Georgetown and then about the same thing coming back. You'd have 1 1 ) l t ', 1 J 1. I ~' ' 1 ! 1., 1 '. , . , : , : , I . , 1 , I , , . 1 to walk back to Georgetown, and:after a way they'd get their little I ': I~ ii I I i. ! j -1:Hin-r du'./ll ! 1,. 1 i:â€¢.:!' ' 1:.\1 ,_, I I u Cl,:J I JI\Oney. They'd have_â€¢to wrap the timber_ down there and they'd shake ; it up dotm there at Georgetown. Pay them for it and then they'd get back, walk back from their home,: I D:_ They'd go r:ight down Lumbee River into P.D. E: That's right. Go down Lumbee River right on into P.D. Trail. D: You say that usually this entire; trip would be about a month? E: It'd take:them two weeks to make' that 'trip and then they'd.walk . J Q... t"Q.f t of I . . back f't'orr{ Georgetown Ma..K~ A the timber. D: Yes, l imagine it'd be a good three weeks, maybe four. E:_ Yes~ :r_:. i~oJine, round trip. :... _ 0 , about tliree or four weeks on making the rev~<> e PAGE 11 I. I I I 1,: 'l I .i. '' .\I' I ' l ti I I,:,. I:, ,1 t I ? 1' 1 ,t,.l 'l,1â€¢jj l t 'I ; Lill1 2,16A , , I I, I l I I Page 10. , , , . . , ,. .l D: Would they cook right on top of a log. E: ~ight on toP. o~ a log. D: And sleep on top of them. E: that's right. I. D; Do you, do you remeJqber any stories that he told back in those days ~bout going to Georgetown? E: No, I don't remember. I wasn't old enough to remember in those days. D: Was this before the Civil War that he did this or after? E: I think it was after the Civil War, along about the time it was somethi.ng like that. D: Do you know if he was married then? E: No, Idon't, I don't know whether he was married or not. D: Do you, do you recall any stories that he told you about the Georgetown tr;lps? E; No, sir, I don't remember. I I wasn't old enough to think much about it when he was talking about it~ I didn'â€¢t try to keep '~ny record of it. D: Getting away from the beach now, when-you were a young boy, real young, say 'fifteen or sixteen, what, what were the young boys doingâ€¢for fun \ . back in your day? E: Well, they worked on the farm fot their father and mother, father. D: What about fun and entertainment? E: Well:, t\iey didn~t know nothing about that, any entertainment. Lots o, them going to ~chool, you know, they might have what they call school ~lbaing ~n(i. b1,8 d.1,nner ou:t there then and that's about , PAGE 12 I " L'UM 216A Page 11, ! L J j : I '. I dib ! ! ' ' all the kidsâ€¢ ever g'ot in them days. D: Well, did they hunt, enjoy htint:tng and so on? E: Oh, yes, you go down to the beach you could hurit. D: Well, what about around here, didn't they they enjoy hunting? E: Yes, they hunted ~ro~d iri. a sJcti~ti. h~.l~ I .' They had plenty of g~me tti.ail t'h.e'r~ ev~r';a~i: '' We have plenty of it arotmd Prospect there;.'' Way do~ 1 ori. 'the 'b~~~h;tiown''~y lth~ hunt' th~re' 1 s' just 'every, tnereâ€¢s.' squ:frrElisaJa'p:os:lois 1 Jhd 1 cC:~nJ a~d 1 e'.v~ryth:lrig~ 1 j\_;_st plenty 0 tllel!l d6wn'thei-~'.' L6~t~ii"ti~ntariy6~e! I i1 11 .!11-.I llul.' ,; D: In yout:' young days how did your pa.rents teach you to feel about a white â€¢man? E: Well. l): Or wna.t dtd they teach. you and so forth? 'What did they tell you about wfu.te people? I I E: We.11, Inever did get out amongst 1 the white people. I didn't know D: nothing about them. My daddy al~ys sit down rrobably if he had time and tell us his old story about something or another, you know,way back. Butiwe were so little we didn't even know, understand what he. was talking about, and after I got: up o:ld enough to know,why,he got out to work and I never had any.chance, you know, to pay any attention 0 toA ~ch. wha,t_~e wa.s tE.\lldng about. . 'ti W'e-11~ hoJd PAGE 13 '' f I I , f !' Ll1_M 216A rage 12. I l dib ; ! 1 , ,! i ,,_,I,. f, I : I ! ' I :, . 'I I I ,I I .' I ! . I ! <,\_ I I I , t I . : I! J I. I I : I , , I I , ' ' I I I, I I! J': ) l I I l' L I You didn't ~n ~ontact with. him very often. 1 \ 1 ,_, t , 1 l: i ,,. , 1 l:1,1!l. E: No~ tn la.teD year& probably even after I got grown and got to I I . ! I. I I l 'I . : ' ' I ! I 1_ I [ ' j f ' ' I j : J 11 I . i I I I . I I I '.; I. ' l I I ' . I } \ . -worki,ng out :tn putdtc work, l' began to talk with these white people 1 , , 1 i ' i l 111.: -1u L l. i 1t , 1 i .1,, ti! t i l1. \tt _ I t I i \I, 1' L I-Lt J l ;\1 ,t 1 1 1 : a.nd colored people-.; : i1.1.J :,v,.:11 lhlli<' \!j rtu_:.1 1t111,i1 lllll. i l I :c;.1\1 .1 1.'l,,, D: Did you grow up to kinclly dislike them? .. i , . ' I' .. ! ,;,i~/1. 1-: j i ', i :1IL J'.CtJI.JII â€¢. Well, no, f l~ked the colo~ed people and I liked the.white people. They was all ntce to ,t11e here, mtghty good people. P: Well, di.dn't you real;cze back in those days that the white people were taking advantage of the lndian people? E: Well, yes-, :r'd hea,r -my father and other people say things about that, but I was so small until I didn't think nothi'gg about it, you know. P: Did you ever hear him talk about, did you ever hear your dad tell about them, white people taking the Indians land or putting things \ in his barn and claiming he stole them 1 and:, so forth? E: No, I never did hear him say anything 1 about that. I heard that D: . after Igot to be a grown man and I'd 'hear people speaking about that, you 'know, way back the old people of the white people coming 'in and taking the~r, the Indian's land, you know, from them.from out of ~cotland and for Scotland I believe he said and some other place over th.ere .â€¢ . I Speaking of education did, do .you remember or did you ever hear him tell of havittg the:1,1;' own schools and p 1 aying their own teachers and so forth without th.a. state do~ng'it? I' E: Ye~, t rem.ember that. I went to 1 schoo'i along in them days. That's PAGE 14 LUM 216A Page 13. when 1 was going to school. dib D: 'Where were you going t~ school? E: I: went to what they' called the Barton Schoolhouse in Prospect. P; Now, tn:e. Barton ~cht>ol, wh.o paid .the teachers? E: Well, :C don't know~bout that. I never did D; t-lllean when I say who, the state or the people. ' E: I think th.e people paid the teachers when :Lt first.started. Theparents would get together and pay him~ so much I think. D: I see. What was that school like, the school room? E: Well', it looked like, just like i.t. is now. It wasn't as large and there wasn~t as ~any students then as there is now, y9u know. U UA.S ju.st~ . gueae bitie ordinary school building. Prospect was just a medium size buildttng and up there to the Barton Schoolhouse was just an ordfnary building. D: One room?~ E: One room, yes, and Prospect was dne ro&n. HQ.'./e.. D: And-a fire..,place or heater? E: Fire..,place'. D: All of yodtried to sit around tlie fireplace1 E: That:' s right. I: would sit there.' /': D: What" kind of bench you have? I E: We b:ad a wlooden bench. D: Di-d you ~e l\ desk? . E; ije.11~ l:' th;i;nk the)" naid the. desks built ''in the 'back of the. schoolhouse. PAGE 15 LUM 216A Pa,ge 14. D: D;i'd you use a slate? E: Well, ths3,t' s wha.t we. ~ta,rte.d w1:.th. at irst, you know, anct we'd u~e. a sla,te. I'ct go to the blackboard sometiJnes and D: Nowwtth. your boob, d~<1 you -use a,. what d;td you call that thing you used to keep" fDOtl\ wea.1;1ip.g out your books-, --sum. pad$? E: Sum? D: Yes-, ,did you have a little pad you ptiti!.~--E: Oh, yes, they, you had to keep your little. paper like this thing here. Doubled it up and_put it on to your thum.b because. that thumb would eat~ h.ole slam through one of them leaves in the back. D: You didn't'know--that did you, Mrsl. Rogers. Yes, sir, .mine. D: I used to hear my moth.er talk about' that. E: mine would eat a hole through rthe. hole, that book slam to the back of it. D: Seems likeâ€¢it'd'take. you a long t1.me to learn that page. You need to turn that page. E: We'd turn \it, but it'd be. right over the next page, that samething. It wouldn't tak~ou long to get throug'W that leaf. When you started. the book you'd start in th.ere, yo~'d hcr:ld it with your thumb, you kn.ow, a book like that. Wouldn't be but a few weeks before the sweat or soniethi:ng done eat a hole. through 11 that end they just keep on eating 1 and eating"and the leaves would be coming up above your thumb~ you kn.ow, and your th.ull\b is going on down toward the back of the book. R~kOl'\.. . ,_, 00 l ti: o... be on the back. You couldn't' the leaves down then. They , .. just,come up, yo~ know. ('

PAGE 16

LUM 216A Page 15. dib D: Wasth.ere. more drinking going on in your young days or would you say more today among the. Indian people? E: I didn't understand just wh.a.t D: Did you have mora people drinking alcohol i~ the young, in your young daysor more today? E.: Well, tli.ey drank pre.tty bad in them days. Most, everybody mostly would drmk pretty well. l"lolil o..r.cl ihe.t\..: ii, wo.s a little rough some places-. P.: What do you -mean by rough? E; Well, they'd fight, shoot at one anoth~r, 1 you know. sometimes kill ' ~meoody-.' , D: Do you think. th.e ,men baclc. th.en were braver than they are today? ~; Well, I c\on' t th.ink so. I think.â€¢they all. come along about the same wa,y~ sall\e,,thin.g. Idon't think thereâ€¢s much. change in them. They . . \ didn 1 't hav;e. no education in themfdays, )you ,know. The father,' the ,moth'er d:tdn' t have any education _ 1 and tl\ey couldn't teach the thild and what little ~ch.ooling they got to about three months. D: Well, now--_Lin your boyhood days what was the most important thing that you 'id looW forward t_o? Say when you w~re twelve, fifteen years old o or s'bme,thing, what was tl\.e most important thing that you'd always look forwdrd to? ,1 E: Well, I cU1in 't have. no particular thing's, working all the time in the new-' grotmd d;f:tch;i.ng, -my daddy: woulcf have -Ille a ditching and a cleating land all the, ti~eG D: Well'~ di-dn'' t you ha.ve,. look. forward to raoing eometh;ing? "J:o have a ltt;tle. fun!? ,,

PAGE 17

}'age. 16. dib E: Well, we didn't know nothing about nothing like that much. D: Well, you'd look forward to going to the beach, wouldn't you? E: Well, that wa& years after, well, later on after that. I didn't go but on~ time when I was a boy. I w~t one ti:.me. ' 11 D: I : tfi:.ought maybe you went every ye . ar. E: No, no. One tf~e till I got married and got grown and went myself .S"'-"'-' it 'D: And what did you think the beach was like when you first &ta11t:ed a, boy ? 1 E : Well, it jus : t looked l:i:,ke a, big ocean of water there. You~ D: Yo~ hav:e tiever read about it, have you? E: I'vi never read about it nor saw c it. We got on our mule!s back and l rode up and down the beach. We enjoyed that. That was good riding. You get . up there and you could run a mile _ down the beach, / I ,; t ! you know , was on your JI\Ule' s back, back anwn grodp : 9r did all of you mix togeth~ with the whites and the black ~nd all? How dtd yo do? E: At the t>eail:h? Well, th.ere would inever 'be nobody down there. , : . 1 1: i ,

PAGE 18

LUM 2l6A Page 17. I/! 1 j; J :1 1 1 ! ( f . t I l t , I ', 1 ! t :~: i l l :_. i t I: I \ i I l 1 ( 1 : , \J l 1 j l t I 'â€¢, I; !. ' ,.:' dib 11"b,,t1.,. d,,\~ll I Ill',, ' I would naver see anybod~ around there thenexcept the people that'd be coming out the~e, country down there. D: Well, there'd be people there from other places. E: Well, tliere'd be ,very few-~ ~ery fe.'fl' people there. J>: Would, you all a,s-sociate ~th the.other people there? i: We was alwaysgetting :t.n a group ourselves and they~d get over in another group and that's the way it would work out. ll: You' didn't -mi-x -m.uch with them? E: No, we didn't bother with them. They didn't bother us and we didn't bother with them. D: So you haa your first school. How did the Board of Education feel about giving you supplies and so forth, things that you needed for this schooling:you had asked them for? E: Well, I didn't know-. You had to go to' school long enough to know just D: No, I mean your school here in Hoke Cotinty, how did E: ,ve::>:.:.,e:,,c)c:,, ...... c:,l":::\_,O....,covC>,. Oh, they was willing to go out ahead and or help me to get the school organized. Told me to find a pla/ build it and I c0t1ld have it. D: But your school was never like the whites, like that big brick building here in Jacobs Po~nto There was 'quite a difference between those schools, E: D: wasn't it? An+ ioa.-/1... Oh, yes./ 'Well,Aer3li.Ct'R' they built' that school, they didn't use it a,bout two ~earsbe!'ore ff!~1, 1:-t+; + I +~ \f; \\( g:and went that Rapan we didn't get no school till they'bu!l~ 1 â€¢. ---------' Well, now when they built this big brick white school building at r. ,, \ but So

PAGE 19

Ltn1 216A, Page 18. ' I 'I I. 1-,-,i,-, ~-, -i 11, \' I i I; ... \.. f 11, ,, l,; I' . ' I! ll ll 11 l,. , i ,, to R.apanville? I' I,,,,. '. I l' 1ti Ii, ,I i ,,, . E: 'we1'1, ~ome. c, 1 them.itttc1 1 wlahh 1 t[d' give( i~' to us and some didn't. So \ . . ' ........ .... . that w~s'""e..+rotlb\~-'d ''. tl,i,. Li t, ,. ; -,:,,, ,. ., ,j\.,,, I.,, 1 \nlydidn't they:want you all to have that school? E: 'Well, I never did learn why'. t never did talk to them about it, you know. D: What happened to that school? E: 'Well, it went dead at Ant:toc~ They didn't, they didn't teach there~-= but two or three years in that building before they left. D: What happened to the building after they moved out? E: It's there yet. D: And that was a right nice brick building that you all would have been glad to have. I, E: Oh, yes, t's a n:l:ce building all right. D: But they didn't want the Indians to have it. E: 'Well, some of them wanted the Indians to have it and some didn't. That~~ theway, ttlat' a'. what they' rsa:td. . D: Who bought that school? E: T don't know whether it's ever been bo_ught yet. unless Walter:Gib~on baught :f,t. I believe he. finally bought that.; D: Howmuc~ dt.d h.e pay for ;f;t~ MJ'.'s., 'Rogers? R: I don't have any idea at all, but I imagine it was ju~t a nominal sum. E: I believe :he paid ten thousand ddllars:for it or something like that. D: "1r.$--.'. Ro gets-, what was your :ldea as to wny they didn't want them to have this school? 'I I I PAGE 20 ', I L'Ul1 216.t\ Page 19. ,( .'ill, t., I I,.!:;; i! dib _ju' R.: I ' , ... 1;l1:1L \/,I:, '/'""" 'J(Lâ€¢,., _t,; L-> 1:11; t.l,,~y d i,lJ1' t \, 11!! I I Well, I can only offer my op;Jnion basei:l on observations based l . ,â€¢\. ,i1 l ' 1 on my 1ittle knowledge of the agricultural economy in Robeson Ii and surrounding counties. It was not economically beneficial .to the white man to encourage the Indians to have education because j ' they wouldn't want to work the farms for nothing and they would know, too, when they were being ch_eat~d. D: So you're saying that they would only want them to have just a little, not much R: D: R: D: R: On::{.y what the law demanded and.,._~..,.,..~ w>~Oâ€¢ And:what they really demanded. Right. And they would hope that.they wouldn't demand too mu~h. Right, only, they, I think they only gave what, wlrat they had' to in order +o Q$SQqje.., their consciertce and try to satisfy the law in the leastdegree. D: Now here we'll/say your two are what, three generations apart? Four? Yes, yes, you are one, two, three, three generations apart and ;I wonder what the thinking i~ now l:lere on the school situation. How do you view it today, will you tell me something, Mrs. Rogers? You~re teaching what is considered the best high school of Hoke County and you teach twelfth grade English and you teach white students, 'black students, Indianistudents and so forth. Woul~ you I . comment on 1 this? r 'i R: Well, I think the school system itself 'is a fine school system and I think the attitude of the Boarw of Educatio~ and the principal under whom~ I'm working is, couldrr't bel>etter, and I don't kndw b

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LUM 216A. Page 20. l l. j { ". ! I' i dib , , : I j I I. '' â€¢' '. ' ' \,,, ... 1 \'' '.: ' ',' 1 . ! , ; '.; . " I ' 1 I) j, ''l J whether it's because they had to integrate and had to ~hange ! r J,1, , 1., , -1 , â€¢, i , their attitudes or what, but for whatever reason I'm glad it's ,tlldL . i ' ' I ... I I.:, ' ;, .. I as it is. But I think as far as students' attitudes, and I'm 11 I ti:'. , 1, I I, , (,)[ l I j I, ,,, , '! I, j II'',. j ,I: . , not blaming the students all together for this, poor.education ' I ' ' : ' I I i I "' I i ':'. I ' 'I l i ,.' I' 'I I, j: I) "I,'" I I i ' is lamentable, especially the Indian students, and I think one 11.t " I 1,l1 I Ii l l, ,,!,â€¢ 1:,1. Ii i! ,!1â€¢.I ,"'' l ,. ,. \; reason for this is that he is such a small percentage of the , , 1 '. ',/ :.-!, ,;! . , I ,,di .:IJ .. I:, !:111 : I) I 1 I. 1 ,, ; . total student population and he feels lost and overwhelmed in this situation. Besides that education is really not encouraged : I â€¢,,J,,: t;1. :;ilt;,,I ,â€¢.,il':.1 it. JI' i., ,I li11, :.,,, .. :1 . in the Indian homes as much,:I think, as it ~s in the white_ and , , _ ,, 1 ii'"!, ,,I t ii, Ec,.11,l ,.: 1-:.1,,.. 1\1-1111 .111,I tl1, 1 ,r i, . the black-home. Now I don't know why I 1t,f that feeling. I guess it's becaus~ 1 'o:f t~e; '~ttituct'.e"o~ 1 'iie 1 st~de 1 nh{ that: 1 1lvv~ ''ob'served I J . 5~ in the classrooms. They don't~ive that much for education. They don't want to go beyqnd the :'high school level to any extent. I don't lcriow how many seniors welhad this time from Hoke High, Indian \ seniors who went or planned to go on to college, but I don't think it was more than three or four if that many, and I think I came in contac~ with more Indian students than the other twelfth grade .sfwl.~,;__+s D: Well, thetle must be a reason for 7 this. 1 What would you~ R: I know, r knowth.ere is a reason ;and w~ll, I know there 9 s more than one ' reason and I guess I would have to look at what the students do after they.get out and try to assess what thht reason is alsop because when the Indian students get out of high school they get a job to make some money. Tttey want that money in their Hands that they.won't be having :tf they go on to college or go to somerlother school, and now,1you might not'think that this would je typical but it's, it's becoming more and 'more typical for the Indian boys e~pecially t,o have his o~ car . I

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LUM 216A Page 21. dib be~ore he gets out of high school and his whole life is planned around that automobile right now, and that's why' he has to work to support that automobile. t\.~ He just doesn't, he just does~~ ,.. .. ,.. ,. ltn\.., , he doesn't have that spirit of being willing to o 0V put off pleasures and things to start for that education that he has to have. D: How'do you, how are you treated by your friends in the school profession at school? R: Well, I couldn't be more satisfied with my treatment there either. D: I've always felt personally as a Lumbee Indian myself, there seems to be so~e difference between whites we'll say, on the professional level and then socially mixing with -+he"" Would you comment on this? on Sunday afternoon. R: Well, there is, there is no social mixing among the faculty'at Hoke High beyond the professional atmosphere of the school unless ,~ maybe it'would be isolated individuals who go on a shopping spree or something, but as far as coimnunicating socially or in social circles, ''.it's just not done yet~ D: Do'you ever have any of your friends to come out? You all ever take a ttip or anything togethef, youâ€¢and any of, the white people? . R: No~ noneiwhatsoever. This one iady, Doris Hastings, she and' I go F ar~und 1 pretty much together all the time because we have ou~ee t> pe-tiods together and she has in~ited me to her home for lunch and t've gon~ and of course I'd reciprocate except that the time that h f" 1'

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LUM: 216A Page 22. dib \ we have to communicate during school or to socialize during school is limited, so we just don~t do that. And I think to be perfectly honest I, I don't feel that she would really be too enthused about . coming to my home. D: And actually you're not too enthused going to hers. R: Nell, no, I, I really honestly would not feel comfortable going to.her home to participate in any social affr.ir wi.th her circle of fr:tends. D: So I guess it's about as broad one way as it is another. R,: Yes, ye.s~ D: Do you fell that prejudice exists among Indians as much as among the wh:ttes-? I . R: Ye, I do. t have to say this honestly and I tell you I guess one thing that brought this to my attention a long time before I ever ' . . \ . had any hopes o_f going to college and 1 real,ly being able to analyze K k the sttuation 1 like this, was the/1-an~Indian cla~ at Maxtori when the Xlo..~ Indians ,had their mutual riots. I went over there and I fully expected to see wha~ I saw. D: Yotf, are o/OU saying that you attended ;the clan rally in '58.at. u R: Right. !.: r II D: Yes', tel! me about this. R: Well, f.y liusband and I and Henrf, Mr. :lnial 's son, and his wife whd-was, 't-Tell, she wasn't his wife th~ but she is now, we knew that the'meeting was going t~ bJ over-there and so we decided to go and we'went and we were all e'.Kcited about what we were going to t r r,

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LUX 216A Page 23. dib D: R: D: see because we knew that the day had passedwhen the Indians wasn't going to cower no more, and so when we got there it was jus.t a few, minutes before the thing got started and the cars were, had lined both sides of:the road and as I remember there were three bare bulbs, bulbs, light bulbs hanging on some poles stuck in the ground * and that was the only light there. Neither one of those bulbs as 1 I remember, was too close to the speakers stand which was already erected. But anyway by the time that we had gotten turned around and headed b?ck the way which we had come in everybody kind of flowed across the road from the cars and went over near the speaker's stand and of course when the fir~t .shot rang out that meant the lights were gone and everybody just st~rted generally shooting and I really t
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LUM 216A Pa,ge-24. Ii 1. I ,J l , 1.1_-_I" ;[_ l ! I ! t say that you are ever justified in violently assaulting anybody, but maybe the intent was not to violently assault and just to violently frighten. Whatever it was the~an was frightened and they left, but also I left,there was plenty of sympathy for them because I realized how stupid and ignorant these people were and we were behaving in the same way. D: Let''s see, a question here._ Let.'s see, describe some more of the I< jlan rally at Maxton. R: As far as I am able to determine the speaker that night never appea~ed on the platform. He may have begun to appear and maybe tha,t's when the shots started. I don't know, but I know, though, about twenty-five or thirty shots fired and with that many shots being fired I don't think the intent and the purpose of the clash' wasto slied blood. If it had been there was ample opportunity \~(\ to shed th.a blood. I think it was to fight: more than to mame and -ro K kill. ,o11 _ 9 ,;;2:, 0 tt ma'd'e a point. > crv~e" o J F' D: Now if they, if they had resisted you think the Indians of course, there may have been some bloodshed. :J R: Right, I fully believe there would have been some bloodshed, but I ' f ~ kne~ a week before we had planned ahead when we heard that the meeting was 11 goingto be over therea I had, l'had told my husband that there was 1 goin.g"'to be-a riot and I knew it ~buld be and of course lie knew there wastâ€¢ going to be a riot, but he didn't call it a riot. guess he, 'he'd considered it the last ~traw. f I "

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j ' I I . I i I LUM 216A I l I ' I I, i II. . . : I . ' 1 ' j i â€¢! j J 'j l I !. I'. Page. 26. I,' 1 . ! ! : , I,~ J ! i 1' -~ I ; 11 { f ( i J ; I I I, ; f. \J O l ; , l I , \ t i ! 1 , : j ) J I , I l: l './ i I of me. And l think he, he is not as wise as I think state superin. tendent of f u.b\iQ.. ~nstruction should be to overlook an ethnic stereotype in a social studies group which really has no place there. History is supposed to be fact and I think they left out a lot of facts. As a matter of fact I'm sure they did and they elaborated and made many fairy tales to make a point about the ' heroism of the caucasian Americans to the detriment of the American lnd:tan and r did not get any further WMllit,-esu..lf.s after havingwritten Mr. Phillips about the textbook. But a friend of mine who was in college with me, she is: working in Washington,D.C. this summer with the ~o~ssion on Civil Rights, and she remembered andshe gave me a form to use in 1 crititizing the book and to mail back to her for use in the civilrrfghts, some civil rights project or something. But anyway that's~what I'm presently doing about it. \ But 1 :t think it's, it's tragic that they would take our tax money and 1 misuse it this way. If, I think it would be better not to have any social studies in the fifth grade ~tall if this is what they're goidg to iaste their.money on, aftd giv~ us the m~ney to build schools witho D: Now' how many in the twelfth grade in Hoke, how many Indians do you teach 11 ho~ many black and how many whites do, could you give me I some oreaRdown on some of your classes? R: Well, I hJd, I had about a hundred andjfifty-three students all to gether an4 I think I took a tally one.time and 1 had a~out sixteen E F ;-1 fl

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LUM 216A Page 28. dib cou~se our friends all belong to the same race basically.until you get in the integrated school where you do have maybe a friend who is black or a friend who is white. But still you may be seen around Call\pus with him and you participate in some of the extra curricular organizations with him, when you get in the classroom you naturally gravitate toward your own _racial friends. 0:.. D: Do you try to break them up and alphabetize the group byAseating arrangement or anything? R: Yes, I do this periodically not just to break up the racial groups out because these. friends get together:and they want to take a social hour every now and then and you have to get them separated so that they can realize that it supposed to be an instructional D: R: ye,, period. But I, I think I haj a good r~lationship with my students. , I had some personality conflicts but Incan honestly say that I didn't have any racial conflicts.' Evidentally they thought I was mainly a pretty nice guy becaus~ I wa elected senior teacher of the year .. honorVery good/\~ senior teacher of the yeaf. By the senior students? Yes, uh htin. D: And do yod see ~uch difference in the young generation and say the teaclung generation, you knoJ, amojg students R: In what /w;iy? e D: as far "as breaking racial barr'iers? 11 R: Well!, t hdnestly think there is mor~, ~at the, the teaching genera tfon is mo're inclined toward tha~p thaf kind of thing than the stu dents arei

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------~---------~------------,, l1 t ' 1 ' ,,, 11. , It i 'II ,I l'tf l I!\ I,, 11! LUM 216A Page 29. I j, .,, dib ,' j .. lâ€¢l ;1 t , l i. ,I I IJ,, j,,,â€¢i111d lit.\!' 11,,1 /.i11,I (II ll1i11,. ll, ,I\ D: You mean breaking it? R: Right, because the students that I had are in that phase of their life where they're "'incl~ , you know, on the lookout for the mate that they're going to live with the rest of their lives, and they're not too inter~sted in marrying somebody else of another race because it's not socially or economically desirable, because we still have strong prejudicial attitudes in our society, and the kids are realistic. D: So I guess realistically speaking, as a matter of fact my mother always told me to marry Indians and there were five of us and of course then.we did and R: Fine. D: I. suppose it has certain advantagesand the same goes for the white or the black. R: And then, 1 too, ! really think, I'think~it would take a super strong person to marry somebody of another rate, especially and live in our community and fight the resistence all his life. I think when you consider somebody in matrying 1 you think now how much resistencJ am l going to get from my ftiends, from my parent~ and the people that I'm going to be close to the rest of my life, and -fo sometimes you havef\defer, well, most of them to defer these attitudes I because'it's just too much to fight all your lifeo D: Yes~ I suppose so. Too many battles. R: Oh., you have too -1Il8ny battles to fight : in your life to use all your ; : ',: J I , I (' ;: ---~--~~~---------------------------------------

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LUM 216A Page 30. dib energies fighting one and it's not a defeatest attitude. It's a realistic one. You have to live in this world and you want to live among people that you love and know that gives you a feeling of security. So you have to decipher their attitudes somewhat .. D: How ~o you feel that -minority groups can teach identity and still not teach prejudice? R: Well, one way would be to get rid of the fifth grade textbook that we're us-ing, social studies textbook, because I think that defeats ~riy, any constructive purpose we could have in teaching ,:,acfal identity without teachingâ€¢'prejudice, beca~se it's books like this ;that tend to perpetuate prejudice. And another thing is to sh.o# people as people, which I tnink the social.studies textbook again could do.rather than showin, the Indian as some body stupi.1<1 who just runs into a group 1 =of s'oldiers who has a 1 gun. Teach. th.e tact that this was part of the Indians belief about showing his manhood. If he could makef:the co~p, which is touching his enem.y"without getting injured, he was really considered a hero' in tHat battle that day. Btit the "'way we vve been shown on televis-ion and in social studies textbdoks this was stupid and it was a childlike thing to do, wliich in actuality was noto Show how-peop1~; have some of the same~commo~ problems like entry into -manhood. 3What is it that the wh:Cte American~ uses to signify'that One of the thing~ is to make plans for when you get ont of school. Another ~'hing is to get a car.and another

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Ltm 216A Page 31. I. I!, l t: I i ! \ l 1 ) ; :. I-: ' ' . 1 1 ; i f' ' I; ) ( , ,/ ! 'i I I I !_. ; f d i 1..: . ,I '., 'I! thing, is to tbeaoPl.e iengag~(\ . .to 1a, ,g:IJI11 aml get' mai:tried. , , Well, what _9M.\. &ha could do: is, to .. show how 1 people 1:L'n, othetL cultures, cto, this same thing in their own way, wnete,we,oa~â€¢t,downgrad~ othe~,cultures because tlley donâ€¢ t doi the same way,. th~.t ~3!te Ameri.!can ,culture has dev;i;sed for its 1offsp~ng.l, i :It .doesn 't,,mean that they are back ward or primitive,: because! ma.ln.y ttdmeJ~; theyi ,C?oultl, tieaeh. us some lessons just 1:L'k!a .. the r.e0eolft, '. stOllle, :age. cult~;re ,1thaft1 was I discovered in the Philipines. They don't have any cavities because they never had any, any sugar and something, or.salt. So there's some thing to be learned, and they also had a method for cleansing their , teeth. This thing about teaching racial identit, I think we have I to in some way get the people responsible for cutriculum development and.educate parents and begin educating students to see people as, as people.and, and to, to awaken theif conscience in some way because they're never really going to do anything until you find something '> that you can sti~ulate besides this concept of curriculum _w_i-t-_l ___ These social study textbooks, which is 1 my pet peeve, are really a lot.of fairy tales in many ways, and: I was taught that history was supposed to be.objective and 1 preseht the facts as they happened r . . wtthout any glossing over or caridycoa~ing and whatnot. But we don't get 1 it that way. We criticize ehe Russians for rewriting his su.i-i:: tory to~whicltJver premier is in1 office, but we do the same thing foriwhicl(;ver of our ethnic groups ii in the majority~ D: In teaching the three races do ybu feel that you have as many friends am~ng the 1 Indians, whites percentage-wise and so forth?

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': I LUM 216A I ' t ! , !. Page 32. . I ' I \ I','; . \ 0 ' 1 1-1. 'I' I i ' I ,i .... ,! I I. ' } , 1-., t >, t.Jt 1 j 1 1 I 1 n i , .~ 1 l,, 1 J, . dib I ' ! ., I I ... ,_ , ,I., I. things like showing that you're a_warm person or can be a warm and understanding person, I think the black child is more receptive and more app~ec:t.at:t.ve th'an .. the white child _ and maybe it's because t e. l mean that r fjll that way, but I get the feeling that, that the white kids are, th.ink .. yo ~re not doing them any great favor J -â€¢tt.e.edAI: Jt.her, and it doesn't make any difference you' re going to have to pass them anyway. But with the black kids it . was different~. I only had one black girl that showed any hostility toward me at the beginning of the year, and she plainly told me in her atltobiography that she would prefer to have a black teacher and I' wrote her a note on her paper and I said, "Well, I hope race ,-oort'-'â€¢ ,, doesn't make any difference in this class4"'â€¢ And by the end'of the secoti.d six weeks she and I were getting along fine. Of 'course we didn't have any problems, any arguments or anything, but she found out that I was not going to hold blackness against her. D: Did any wh!te student ever say that she'd rather have a white student, ('teacher? R: No,' noner:never said that, but Ifhave one girl who, she went to or. the guiddnce office and told the guidance counse~l that I was prejudice1"and that's why we were hav~ng such a terrible time I getting along, and which is really not so, and I don't know what was wrong with, with Diane~ I do kno* she had a home problem and she had come froll\ a pchool syst~m;sh~ had come from Asheville where they had had a lot of racial problemsp and I think

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'/ ! . : . ' ! ' : . : . : / . ,Ltm 216A h I l I i ., '. 1 ' ,j ' I I,. wo.'S . . i i. , â€¢. , , 0 ~~' iof; f.:e.<' , , " iaJ , , bl : , . 11_ that she wuul:ct probably want.~ Know _what. :_rac; pr-~ 1 ~r,v~ f --rr.~e.. But she 'told th~ 'guidanbJ . c 1 ohrt~eldr' tha'.f I 'iiated h~r' becaus~ she I was white and' .ill; 1 thiJ that 1 and thE{ bther~ I,. Btit 'sb.~, 1 but' I never I did take any po:r.nt~ f1iotr1 1 ~er/' 1 1 !was' 'a:lways_ fair' :!ti 'gr'ading her and so after 't:bat itf:r.kl if'told het 'tsa:td; I 1 d:tanâ€¢ t"care what color she was', 'but I 'was ;fea 1 ilf ~:itfr 1 lieft a:da ~hat 'it 'wa 1 s'.'g~tting pretty late' iri 'the 1 yek~ 1 fbt' h'etl t~1:fEi"s\ib\&nt 1 o~f'''ahci"tikvl! 1 t:!0 1 '~hange classes, but if she wouldn't straighten up she was going to have to g~t out of my class, and I told Mr. Maynor that I didn't dislike D;tarie at the first of th.eyear, but I was rapidly coming towards e. . dJsptsfng'her. But she straightened up. I guess she thought I must nave meant business after that time. She straightened up and by the end of the year she was one of !sweetest people I had in my class. \ D: Well, r certainly enjoyed this interview with my uncle, Elisha Dial, the' son of Marcus Dial, and some, of the stories relate ' way back because Marcus was born October the, August the 19th, 1838, and here we have a span of three generations. Hoke County has moved from a position where ther~ wereino Indian schools to where they had a one-teacher Indian school, to where Mrs. Rogers now works in an integrated situation land yet racially-speaking mankind still h~sri't gotten to the pointf'whereâ€¢he looks at man as man~ Per hapg there is prejudice among the black~, among the red and among the 1 white rand oftentimes each lil:e their owJi little social gr:oups 13e--ltj. to do their own thing, but~â€¢â€¢ 9 being awarded the award of senior ll r ,i

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LUM 216A Page 34. dib teacher of the year seems to show that she has worked well into a situation and seeJDS _ to be tnaking lots)of progress. Perhaps a few hundred years from today there'll be a difference i : i .. I.' l 1