Title: Rand Bullard
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Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007188/00001
 Material Information
Title: Rand Bullard
Physical Description: Book
Publication Date: 1969
Copyright Date: 1969
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Bibliographic ID: UF00007188
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: University of Florida
Holding Location: University of Florida
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Full Text
Lum. 212 A
18 July 1969
Subject: Rand Bullard
Interviewer: Adolph Dial
D: This is July the eighteenth, nineteen sixty-nine. I'm here at the home of
Mr. Rand Bullard, the son of the late Simeon Bullard. Mr. Rand Bullard
uh, a very successful farmer and hunter in his day, he's going to...
B: And a fisher.
D: And a fisher, he says, he's going to relate some of his experiences uh, to
us. Mr. Rand, uh, when you were a boy, will you just describe in your own
words uh, what farm life was like when you was a boy?
1l3no wasn't d;;jie, aoJ6 of It, lv of it
R: Oh yes, uh, when I was a boy, why, um, y-r mi 1 .. i i J
imn) tit onf 4hn3g t AAlp
cleared much,As m -e-.. Tr.inaewas cleared, waih the stumps, a all had
to be taken out. Those stumps taken out. You couldn't fid- it on account
of stumps. And then my father and Lee Hiederly, taken up and then took the
fib,-- ':' T* ^ At.l !,9
biggest most of them, you couldn't find half the stumps, 9u'~ tt And
a part of it uh, L4/Q6. ( t a ) that field down
this side of this house had to be filled, there none of that cleared at
all. There's uh, I detect, I know my, my father and my mother cooked for
seventy-five log rollers one day.
D: Seventy-five!
R: Seventy-five, right, right down in the in the house, all there, in the, in
the, in inin, in the house. At uh, that place is long uh, long uh, this day.
D: Did uh, did you help clear most of the land here with your dad?
R: Yeah, ub,uh,ub,uh all of it. My mother couldn't clear it. It was filled
with I mean stu, uh, st....
D: Stumps.
R; Stumps, yeah.

D: Stumps in it.
R: Yeah. I c,c,c, call it when it was clear, wh, wh it was cleared of the
stumps CXCt~^n And uh, we turned it over and
bedded it, and then we turned the uh, 7-lf T rT others, uh, seven mules and a horse.
D: Uh, your uh, your father was quite a successful farmer, now I know he had
a cotton gin, and uh,
R: Oh, yes.
D: What was the uh, what do you recall, uh, how many bales of cotton would,
would you say was the greatest number that you all were able to uh, gather
one year.
R: Oh, well, and I'd say, I remember, an a we, we'd gin mill all day long.
Then uh, up at eleven at night, we w, wouldn't catch up, I remember we,
we ginned about eleven o'clock we'd of ginned nine or ten bales.
D: Now how many bales of cotton would your uh, would your father pick in one
year off of his own land.
R: Oh, twenty-five or thirty, bales. Two days to pick them. If I remember right
I always get half and half and that year my, my sons.
And my b,b,brother, Bill, picked one day seven, eight days running was
going 0~; + ke. E ^ a a fellow Ah t &J picked
five-hundred pounds. And, an that cotton I was picking in that day was
half and half you could pick up and down every other one, up and down, and
then u, up and down an then have a sackfull. The load was short, X1
D: Yeah.
R: And we were picking on two shifts. Time) come the way up, he says, well,
son, you'll have to wage up, they won't check my work. Yes, he didn't pick
all day long. Like about two hours of picking all day long, and now I wage

up, he had five, by weight of five hundred and ninety-five pounds, I said
,Aa F/) rip14 or, ,
buddy, you, you gobackAthat five pound in there that has the ;;no,
no he says, I'll never, I'll never pick no mo', no less than more, more than
three hundred n-e ^ tiring,_ he says, I'm overdone with this.
D: This was your brother Watt?
R: Yes, my brother Watt.
D: So he picked five hundred and ninety-five pounds. What time did he start
that morning?
R: Well, the sun was up, but the way he picked, shit, he said, see, clear that,
boy, leave me the short road. Um got a sack and I can pick up and down,
and you take that long road hesays if I, if I leave that and i come back
here I said, I, I ain't coming back after nothing, an a,Athe bolls were
wide open, you know. Oh, come along about ten o'clock he says, say there,
boy, how much you recon I'm a picking now? I don't know, buddy, I'm picking
sixty pound evr'y hour. That's just what, I know, that's just what he told,
I never will forget that.
D: Sixty pounds. Well, taht was about right, ten hours, six hundred pounds or
five ninety-five, that was getting close to it. Now uh, what was the most that
you ever picked in one day Mr. Ramsey?
R: Four hundred and, a little over four hundred.
D: A little over four hundred.
R: Yes, I couldn't pick any more.
D: Well, you have to move to pick fourhundred.
R: Yes, sir, I had to could move about was good cotton. No cotton,cotton
we, nay, ain't had nay no cotton like that since we quit farming those
mu, mules.
D: You'd make two eI s a back then.

R: Yeah, we'd make two bales a day rf that cotton, yau picked,uh, picked
two bales a day.
D: This was before the boll weevil?
R: Yes, sir! Before the boll weevil, the way back.
D: About what year was this,before T"orld War I?
R: Yes sir, I think so, yes sir, about then.
D: Um, how old are you Mr. Bullard?
R: Eighty-six. Eighty-six years old.
D: Eighty-six years old.
R: Yes.
D: Umhm.
R: My aunt, you know, lived to be a hundred and three year old. Yearsold.
D: Oh, you had an aunt live to be a hundred and three. Uh, how do you account
for the fact that uh, some of them live to be so old, then, and yet we didn't
have uh, medical science and the know-how like today?
R: Well, uh, it's uh, like you said, uh, she were the oldest woman of all the
children of my father's, of his family. Um I, why e,I,e,I ititsthe way the
peopleAthey didn't....
D: Have all these things today to uh, work against them. Eating a lot of sweets
and uh, a lot of things, uh, and if they were able to survive the childhood days
they were able to uh, to make it, it appears.
R: Yes, sir, you are right about that.
D: Uh, uh Mr. Bullard, how old was your father and your mother when they died?
R: My mother was about sevety-five, and my father they didn't live to be too old
like, um, Aunt.
D: Well, let's see, wasn't your father in the eighties?
R: Yeah the, eighty, yeah, eighty, that's right, he was about eighty. Eighty

D: I see. Um, what about your schooling; did you have the opportunity to
attend school?
R: Uh, I went to the ninth grade. I got to the ninth grade.
D: You went to the ninth grade. Um hm.
R: And my father when I got, come in home, he says, well, son, uh, I reckon uh,
you, you, don't need no more teacher, duh, teacher, I said mama I know my
calling, my calling's farming. Oh, well, she says, that's what I want.
D: Well, now uh, yes your father was quite a successful farmer, I recall
when I was a boy he had a sawmill and he had a gin,...
R: Sure.
D: ...and he had running water to his hog pen fifty years ago,
R: Yes, sir.
D: Now, uh, he was a go-getter, when he sold cotton I remember as a boy you
could uh, see wagon after wagon on ter way to the market.
R: Yes, sir.
D: Everybody came and helped to haul that cotton to the market. Around.
R: Yes, sir.
D: Now, uh, back in those days you had some mighty big hog killings. Will
you tell me about the hog killings, and how you would get up and start, and
how many you killed in one day andoall... 4- S 1)
R: Oh, yes, I know we got up one morning at two o'clock. __ __told
me)two o'clock to wake them up to go to get Tommy Bullard, he hadn't,
he hadn't got so he could, he lost his leg but it wasn't then, that was way
back before he got one and then got so he couldn't -get around. Come to there
at two o'clock to get him to kill a hog. Uh, when uh, we kill, we shot it
there and then, aqd next night we got on it way up in the night, and there's

twelve, twelve thousand, uh, uh, twelve hundred thousand.
D: Twelve thousand, you mean.
R: Yeah, twelve thousand. Twelve thousand pound of meat.
D: Yes, I was told that uh, he used to kill ten thousand pound and better in a
R: Wha, wo, that's God's truth, if that ain't true I'll never speak again.
D: That's right, that's right. Well I want you to talk just as if uh, we were
not recording.
R: Well all right.
D: Now uh, what about uh, the uh, would you salt this meat down, or how would
you keep it?
R: WE'd just salt it down, it was salted down, yes sir. Had a big smokehouse
and, you see, nobody'd lose no meat.
D: Yeah, I notice in recent years, people seem to lose a lot; what's the trouble?
R: Well, they didn't salt it right.
D: They don't know how to salt it.
R: Don't know how to salt it. We, had good salt and then, the day I went to
ask for salt I said, the man said well, hold it, I got salt here, just put
it on the, just put it on the boat, jsut bring to bring in the cost, which is
no good. I said I want the very best, that's my quali...son, you have it, to
get your very best, well I says, he says I'll get you, you can buy salt here,
he says, you' salt as white and be saving meat. And that's the salt we but
every year. We could of got cheap salt it wouldn't of been no good, so we
wouldn't of bought it. But we, we wouldn't have it.
D: Um, of couse back in your day all the harvesting and so forth was by hand.
R: Oh, yes.

D: And uh, how much land could a man break in a day with two mules, uh, what
would be a good days' work with a two horse plow and uh, and a team of two
mules or two horses.
R: Well now I wouldn't say exactly, when we finest went to using them um,uh,
W couldn't plow noneuc until we got all the stumps out. When, uh...
D: About three acres a day you could break I suppose.
R: That, that's about three acres a day, yes.
D: Now what about sweeping cotton, a good day, how many acres could a man side,
one side, in four say, in about three, three and a half to four foot rows,
how many acres could he plow in one day of cotton or corn?
R: Well, I'd say something like twelve acre, I know I never will forget the
day I planted in one day, twenty-five acres. With a mule.
D: Twenty-five acres in one day.
R: Yes, sir, never will forget it...
D: You mean just one planter?
R: Just one planter.
D: Just one planter.
R; Yes, sir, now that mule really has gone over some ground.
D: You were really crossing ground.
R: Oh yeah.
D: Twenty-five acres.
R: That whole big field up yonder uh, uh, my son Max 5 6e(
D: Yes I know that field, that's a big field, and a very fertile field.
R: Yes, sir, you're right. It is. A prize field.
D: Well, uh, about entertainment, uh, back in your childhood hays. Uh, what did
they do for fun and relaxation and so forth, other than work?

R: Well, uh, eh, my father had uh, had shade trees a few shade trees yonder,
why, we'd get under there and cool off, and, and, that's, have mel...
D: Maybe have a watermelon in the summer.
R: Plenty watermuilmg, plenty watermullens we had.
D: Um, now uh, back to education, uh, where was the first school you attended?
R: a-rree.
D: Right out here at BOdLr I. Umhm. Did you ever go to new hope, to the
school there?
R: Oh, yes, I winded up at New Hope. Got my last...ninth grade.
D: Well, where was the school at prospect when you went there, where was it the
school built? Or located?
R: Well, it was 4 T ., but it was a log building.
D: A log building?
R: Oooh yeah, oh yeah, it was nothing but a log building.
D: Was it on this side of the canal near Ines?
R: Yeah. Well, no it was, it, it...
D: Where the present building is?
R: Yeah, it could, it yeah it bout by that)but the road, the road wasn't as wide
as it is now. You would put it below, below of a few, a, a few yardswwhere
it is now.
D: I suppose you were the number one coon hunter un, among the Lumbee Indians.
Will you tell me some of your interesting experiences and thing that you re-
member about coon hunting?
R: I know when we, when there's a fighting war, when there's war going on,
on,on, uh,
D: World War I or II?
R: World War...well, now, that one with Germany, was that One?
D: Well, there was, uh, was this the one your son Bartram was in, or the

other one?
R: This is...
D: The last one that Bartram was in ? '
R: This is the one, though thatVwas in Germany, this one we're talking about.
D: Okay, World War II.
R: Yessir, World War II. And I know, my sister says, son, let's go, I want
to make a raid on them coons like the Germany's making a raid tonight, and
let's go. And we'd go hunting. And come back, come back, we'd come back
with four or five.
D: Uh, what's the greatest number of coons that you, uh, ever recall getting
in one single night, uh, you and your friends along with their dogs and so
R: I just now remember the men, haha, on 0he OC e- backwaters we caught
D: Seven.
R: Seven coon. Yessir.
D: Well that was a aygoodt. fight left in that coon when he'd hit the ground
when you'd shoot him out.
R; Oh, yes, sir, that so right.
D: Now your sister Reddy, she was a coon hounder too.
R: Oh, yes, she'd get out, her, her, her husband couldn't hunt with her.
she's the only one that could love going with me a-hunting. I never will
forget she I know to take to hunting, lose their shoes, the gal that throwed
them would of come out, she come out with no shoes on, had toleave her shoes
in the swampy place IWf Pnt phol "O .nWhen her husband was
along that night, oh, when he couldn't stand it he like to went down.
D: Yeah, she was the daughter, I mean she was the wife of uh, of uh, the late

uh, Oakley MacMillan.
R: Oakley MacMillan, that's right.
D: Uh, Mr. Oakley was a, quite a lawyer not to have licence, wasn't he?
R: Oh yeah, they, they worked with him down at Lwmon all along, they !4 L
S ~ bL A \ f i k'-4- the lawsuits and business, that, why mostly worked
when they want, don't want to go into that, so...
D: He more or less practised law without licence, didn't he?
R: Well he did, yessir, he, they used him to, the white folks used him like
D: Yeah, umhm. Now um, um, let's see, I had another point here I wanted to make,
um, or I wanted to uh, ask about, uh, perhaps, uh, we'll come to that point
uh, a little later on. Oh, yes, I wanted to ask about um, um, some of the
old community leaders. Who do you consider uh, if you go way, way back,
some of the community leaders in the Prospect area among the Indian people?
R: My father, John Harris, and John Bullard.
D: You...
R: That's the three leading 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1, 4pee leading Indians there was
around here in Prospect community.
D: Yes, and even before their day, who were some of the leaders, the preachers
and so forth?
R: Well, now it don't matter, Uncle Angie's the main preaching and Indian man
t-e- C(CaO
around in my, when I was a boy. Angie Slocar, you remember him I mRee-a
way back.
D: Yessir, do you remember uh, W.L. Moore?
R: Oh, yessir, Mr. Moore, oh yessir, I did. He um,um,um, Prospect, Prospect
Community is one of them that you...like brother Angie. I forgot about him.
D: Uh, he was instrumental also in education was he?

R: Oh, yes, sir, oh yes, sir, shure was.
D: Um, the uh, who did you consider perhaps now, if you're going back there,
uh, do you remember Mr. Preston Locklear?
R: Oh yes, sir, oh yes, sir.
D: Mr. Preston Locklear had a son who was a doctor, Governor...uh, Doctor
Governor Locklear? s
R: Yes, sir, he one of the the father he is ^r- f- the best doctor:there was
in Robert... in Robinson county.
D: Did he marry a white woman?
R: Yessir, he married a white wo, old lady. Yes, sir.
D: He was one of the first Lumbees around to marry white? r
ligr '
R: That's right, he's the only...first one. I never will forget, I-wes a-working
at the 'b when the dust got on my lungs. Somebody couldn't
hardly, it darned killed me, uhhn, come along a fellow, well, he says, if you
see the doctor Locklear he says he, he's the only man I know of I believe
at could cure you. Un, I never will forget, he says he come here and he come,
he come. to my Pap, and it, it night, but he wouldn't go to nobody else on
account he said well, Sam, they won't pay me for it, and you'll pay me.
An uh, I, I don't, and a why, come, n, n, I won't a why a I, let you down?
I'll come at night and stand next. When he was the man that give me a g, g,
give me a gallon of, ordered a gallon of brandy. Cut every bit of that, in
the uh, I taken that whiskey, in about a month, un, every day an cut ever bit
of that, thht, that dust off my lungs. The day I didn't I'd of been gone.
D: Well, back when you was a boy and uh, even before Doctor Locklear's time uh,
I suppose you remember when you didn't have a doctor anywhere around. How far
would you have to go for a doctor?
R: Oh, y'have to go...way on out. Like you say I, I didn't have to go to no
doctor much till then. At's first doctor I ever well had to go to, on account

of that dust.
D: Course you've never been under the doctor much in your entire life, have you?
R" No sir, I haven't, it's uh, that's the only time the way back when I was a,
an I went to a doctor, since then I ain't been to no doctor much.
D: Now uh, did ever believe in uh, home remedies, what were some of the home
remedies that you'd use?
R" Oh, but my mother had a lot of home remedies, they had teas...the teas they'd
go and buy out, and make them. They had a cold. I never will, remember that
I never had a pair of shoes till I was twelve years old. And the days /cjliff & I 4 S
was then and we, oh, me and the girls, me and my sister Reddy'd, they'
me-wh&t* was then and we, oh, me and the girls, me and my sister Reddy'd, they'd,
well the girls go out and slip on the ice, barefooted.
D: You mean you didn't own a single pair of shoes until you twelve years old.
R: dag / C t,1,7' twelve years old. That, that ain't the truth I'll never
speak again.
D: And, uh, didn't your feet get mighty cold?
R: OH, it get plumb lead, but d, d, d, never took a cold from it,
D: You didn't have colds back in that day.
R: Ahh, no sir. Slippin on the ice barefooted.
D: Slippin on the ice barefooted.
out nearly
R: Oh, yes, they maybe ;-- half-hour. Cause the fo, the cold feet'd be as red
as blood. We's usen to it you know, an it just didn't, just didn't give us
no cold. That ain't the truth I'll never speak.
D: That's very interesting, here, the boys were tough back in those days.
R: Oh, my, I mean tough, tough, tough, tough; good gracious tough. Yessir,
you were right about that.
D: Wcht are some of your childhood experiences today that youvthink about most?
R: Well, uh, now I, uh, I was a child it just like the bible said, uh, my father

uh, they, they, they, they he in te bible said use the rod and spare the
l3f Ir
child's soul, if you don'tvyou lose it. Uh, uh, we went a bunch on me, I
never will remember i' v~0 me uh, Uncle John's y, y, after some if I
didn't go and come in a hurry why, ifI, stayed back and fooled about I got
whipped. Yessir I had to go down, they'd could give me a certain time to go
in a hurry and come back. I never will forget, when I, my, my, father had a
a horse I was 'sposed to be quick with the riding the horse, and he says
son, I, I, want you to run to, run to Pace in the morning or sometime and he
had, the closest place around was Pace; like it is now. And A i' 0
I jump on that horse's back, no saddle, and from there, he'd never stop
before a lope. From there, then a, a, to Pace, time I got my stuff right back.
I couldn't uh, I never will forget w, w, we lope across that)that big branch,
heap he
what they call the big branch >.' full of water an' he, wa,'wouldn't slow up
for him and I just didn't; let him run right across there.
D: Um you been quite a Bible reader in your day, haven't you?
R: Oh, yes, I been rea...I never will forget buddy, this,-some I tell you this,
I never will forget, when I was quite a lad of a boy, going to school, my
mother would, would say a fast verse and give them out to us, and I never
couldn't, she never, Icouldn't never learn them by heart for her, she hand
them to us. I says, Mother, when I got a little bit of learning 'going to
school, I says whyn't you took the Bible and, and show me where I, I can can
lean, I can learn the Bi, the...the prayers by heart. Well she says yeah.
And she showed me. And that's the only way I ever learn them. I couldn't
learn them by her d, d, what she'd say them to me at night, she, she said our
prayers every night, but I couldn't learn them by heart, And-whenI -learned
them by heart, I believed it would bind me to the Lord, intending me to
want to want to do uh, learn the Bible anyhow, and uh, when I learned them

uh, an uh, Bible an uh, them uh, prayers by heart I'd, that put me to reading
the Bible. From there on I been a-reading the Bible ever since, an' I quite
a lad of a boy, just ever since I could read.
D: Have you read the Bible through?
R: Many times.
D: You read the Bible through many times.
R: Yessir, more than once, I read it over and over in places, you know, several
D: You still read your Bible?
R: Oh yes, sir, yes. Sometimes I set down and read a whole, a whole book.
D: What is your uh, what is your idea of uh, man uh, I'm sure at, uh, a man at
your age uh, he thinks a lot about death and leaving this world and so forth;
what uh, what is your opinion on that?
R: Well my, my opinion is this, uh, you know your life, you I don't know if you
ready to or not. But God's people are, my mother she I, she hand some over
sides her. When death come she didn't, she didn't have to die, she just fell asleep.
reckon ,
I -" that aSt XAA. and if you ain't ready tom / 5. And these
his people, He says, and these shall fall asleep. Well my mother fell asleep.
So, so did my father's mother. Big ma...my, my granny I'm, she fell asleep.
And several I could call out. But...I never will forget that, but, but that's
in the Bible. That, they don't speak about, and if you're' a Christian you will,
"and -shall fall asleep." Yessir, death's not a terror. Yeah. Death's not
a terror.
D: What is your;'one-of your favorite uh, passages in the Bible.
R: D'uhm, let me see...Corinthians, to those Si / 5 l I I,, W
_fti_ __t_____________are those that love me, my mercy endureth forever.
Un, a, a, oa, the other ones, uh, rtlI S writing...uh, uh, paragraphs, um,
not paragraphs, but, let's see his writing....c, h, c, he, he writed Corinthians

and...he wrote Corinthians, well that's one of my main, main ones too. And
uh, he, h, h, name all am I got h, h, uh, bu, but...I love to read it all
but its several pages now an, a, a, I keep uh, against my heart.
D: Yes, uh, I, I've always known you y'know uh...
R: Yessir.
D: as long as I can remember; uh, being reared and born in this community, and
uh, I uh, I've always had a, a great deal of respect for you as a, as a gentle-
man and a hard working man.
R: Yes indeed.
D: And I suppose that's pretty important.
R: Oh, yessir, that's good news and glad tidings.
D: Uh, what do you think today, uh, Mr. uh, Bullard uh, what do you think today
about uh, the young generation uh, when it comes to work and some of the things
they do and so forth.
R: Oh, They're way, its way behind in uh time now than it was when I was quite a
lad of a boy. Uh, you know, you know I never, I never, I never, I drove a,
I learned to drive...a car an' I first driving done n went into the ditch.
Lord, looked like spokes, the man said well, well, you ain't got to, you ain't
got to learn to drive. Well sir I never drove no more, I never got hurt niether.
But, I just quit driving; but now you know these boys anhey,
don't care what they're drinking, they'll go right on out driving and, I never
would ride with nobody on a car if they's a-drinking no s5r C* T4SIndians,
D: I always noticed you seem to just, you seem to enjoy work. Uh, you like to
work all the time uh, was, was this, did you really enjoy working that much?
R: Oh, yes sir, I never will forget when Oakley McMillan, he hired, he had uh,

_^_fW_ son, that line hadn't been ditched, and he come down sees my Pap
he says, uh, he's uh, me and him was about the same age, well he was a little
older'n I was. He said, well, Sam, you need a ditchcut and you need some ditching
and he says, you need a boy and I'll, I'll hire him a.-decent sum, he's large
enough now to help me'ditch now at night. Never will forget, me and him cut
a ditch...oh, well,'seventy yards long, out in the 1 f way in the
middle of that field most out yonder where he stayed. He, that water, when it
come a big rain the water just stand in that, in that, in the middle of that
field just about two foot deep. WE cut a ditch out from the jI^fpre down in
there, we cut it at night, moonshiney night, never will forget now, ne, n, never,
worked a, a, ditch so big on them moonshiney nights, moonshiney nights shine
shine pretty well all night and then half of the night why, we'd nary ditching
it. He said, well I'll over what he cut was charging me, I'll pay him and you
pay me. But ha, never give me, give me that back, come time why he, I, I, told
him go ahead, I wouldn't charge him nothing. But all that work at night for
D: Can you remember or perhaps you can't remember but uh, do you remember any the
uh, old fellows telling about rafting logs down (umber River to Georgetownm?
R: Oh, yes. I went to see some YAkCt.^ U ~ rafting uh, uh, I
forget, that was 'way back when I was a boy, you know. They'd raft so many
together, you know and, U____.__'____ ._ and uh, its been so long I forgets
the man who, its been so long I forget now who was a-rafting them, I'm, I'm,
nothing but a child of a boy long about then. ButI'm interested in, I forget
now who was (t/oie when I went to see the logs rafting then.
D: Were these logs going to Georgetown, South Carolina?
R: Yessir, that's what it said was a-carrying them, yes sir, its been a long time.
D: Another question I wanted to ask about uh, would be in regard to uh race relations.
How would you compare uh, race relations between the uh, uh, the various races,

the Indian people and other races today with uh, say, back when you were a boy.
I -? <.6rr fr r l ot 4!
R: Tse big difference here. When I was a boy up and I got *wy..c ^ he
I wasn't ro4> t PAe mad, boy. You know, uh, the white folks
treated me just like, like if I, I was one of them. I, uh, there was no difference
in much in the uh, there was little difference in the dark and white folks
I didn't, um, go with the, the, no darkies none much, but uh, where the white
folks was concerned, they was my neibors as much so as toward the Indians.
Brothers, I- ecr-J, I never will n, So K WP,
I never will forget my son was in the War, my wife was blind, I know t0 -
you will remember when she was blind, and couldn't see, I had nobody to help
me do work, and all my boys _ and all of them was in the war, and uh, Ha-,
Mr. Haste he told me he said Bullard, take your son and get Colonel
^ e r f o A S (tf {i i C ure j ^ t 4er
and let him come adLhLmn LA.. l and get the white folks
to sign, and your wife's, and your wife's blind; we'll get, we'll, I believe
you'll Ctt we'll get your boys sent out of the w, out, ,out of the war.
And I did, and you know he's uh, he just ready to be shipped to go uh, to the
war, gone go to fight, and God bless your soul, 9Pr-President .signed,when he
signed, he brought him in on home. Never will we forget
D: So he was able to come home and help you farm, well, you certainly needed
him here.
R: Oh, my, I'm a, that was one time I needed him. With someone that I we, couldn't
tend,-couldn't tend it all you know. That was the trouble. Tended what we
could do, until he come home and helpen me.
D: How have you always felt about being an Indian, have you always been proul of
your Indian blood?
R: Oh, yes sir, people asking me, when I, never will forget, down to South Carolina
um, to see if my wife's Patty, sister Patty Helvis, close kin away down there,

i~.~; ~18
to see her. And uh, she's in the hospital there, there where they sell
the mules, what's the name of, what the name of that place? B-...
D: Brannisville.
R: Brannisville, yeah. Got up with, with some white, some white folks, and
went on down, she's in the hospital, oh well, just come on, I. said no, not
me, I don', I don' I, I'm a Indian though, oh well, he says, you, you passed
the white test come right on in. An' I didn't never have the big struggle
passing, my wife was clear skinned, you know she nearly white. I didn't, that
oen reason they took n as n as h rn
oen reason they took "iiln as long as they did. I don't, never ;lQhzet Maxton
I never went and bought with the thought, Indian going in with the white folks
eating, there or any things like that.
D: I guess there's lots of people who were fifty percent white or even more who
went as Indian all their life.
R: Eh, yessir, you're right about that. Well now I went, I come, I, I wouldn't
deny my race, I says I'm a Indian, but, well, he says, you're white with us,
that's all right. I says I can't deny my race, and I'm an Indian.
D: Way back there I suppose uh, conditions were uh, a little different down in
South Carolina than-perhaps right in Rabeirtvwr county.
R: Oh, yes sir it was, right smart a difference. Them big white folks just
!U 4fb A there on several thousand acres of land, they got on and says,
come on down here a-hunting, and he -ays the, the word of Law says that any-
body ,-' comes in here, we let them hunt it. It's all right, but you come on
and go right on with us at night. I went clean down there, and cops told
m, me and my son, I had one of my sons with me, n, they, well)I says, I'm an
Indian now; oh that don't make a bit of difference, you're white with us.
They had uh, two men had uh,the land already down, thousands of acres of it,
I never will forget. it.
D: Alright, tell me'some of yourvfish stories now.

R: I say, I tell you yesterday I was a great fisherman, I started out
uh, going to ponds and, running ponds off when I was a boy, young man, like.
When I got on with, with Tommy Bullard, the kids called him a Bullard my
father raised, pretty well raised, Jimmy come from Georgia. And I got in
with him and, he uh, he had a seine, and uh, I seined some along with him
with his seine, just got out and bought me one of my own. Got me a C_ v
good swimmers, pretty big tube the size of myself, and uh, there were plenty
of fish then. And people didn't have ) to cost you, the ones in the
creek like they do now. I could go and in, in one hour, I'd say in o;ne
hour, out of one lake, one lake, two more besides myself, good swimmers, have
to be have good swimmers to pull tha-, that seine while you, you there's no
bottom there, you had to swim ,and pull the youknow. I had to have good
swimmers. And, and in one hour I'd have a tote-sack full of fish. That ain't
the truth I'll never speak again. And I catch with that, I kept up on it, I
never will forget, my sister she could remember, she could know about it, but
she can't remember. Uh, sister Euna I knowed it was about thirty-five of
us went down here to( S ltS Sl i T ) it was in the night, uh,
we just had strikers, though. Didn't, didn't carry, yes, that's right, we did
carry the seine, I carried the seine, and this one, one big old lake there,
that I could seine and, would, kind of kill some with our strikers, too.
And we went there and was about thirty-five of us, an they, th, the, ______
up in the night, and we caught, the thirty-five of us catch enough apiece,
sat down and cooked them right there, on the hill was a sandy place, and these
damn fish, and we stayed there till about ten or eleven o'clock and come on
in home. That's been a long time, Ruddy. My sister Euna"- was along with us
D: Tell me a little about the uh, wood-sawings and corn shuckings,
R: Oh, yeah, I never will forget, they had a wood-sawing, a wood-sawing in the

a, my Pap, father had, he shook corn down in the house, had a big long barn,
on the way we had that, he had that corn shucking that night went down and had
us to fling out all the good corn, but, shuck the plants thevboth halfs, half
way, and fling that corn out on each side. And night come and here come the
people corn-shucking. Oh, we had up to, I, I recon over a hundred people,
you'd carry everybody around come. Had a big supper. And about midnight, why
that corn t4t was all shucked up it was throwed out and throwed right back in
shuck it, on '_ S, throw it back in while the plant was still ppen.
D: Now when you had these corn shuckings and wood savings, all they would
get would be their food, right?
R: That's right, that's all they, that's all they got.
D: Now uh, did they ever have, did yby- ever attend of those wild parties, dancing
parties, and buckdancing and so.forth?
R: No sir, I never I, I, never went on that, somehow, I never, I didn't go that
side much.
D: I believe uh, Mr. Needham Jones uh, he, he liked that, didn't he?
R: Oh, oh yeah Needham would come around, and he of grown a lot uh, my father
John Roland, he, he come along'way back he's uh, he had that music, Ai___
I_, music, my father'd invite him over just to hear him pick his music and
D: Yeah I remember JohnsRoland, he claimed he could whistle and sing at the same
R: Oh, all the same time, yeah my father liked that; and I enjoyed it too, yeah.
Yes, sir.
D: Well Mr. Rand, I appreciate uh this interview with you and uh, I am quite proud
that you are still able to get around and work a little at age eighty-six, and
I hope that you have many, many more useful years.
R: Well, I tell you this and we'll hold up. The hardest pill or the hardest thing

I ever had to, to come, to undergo, was, was giving up work, I, I, I, give it
up. I I had to give it up.
D: The most difficult task that you've ever had to undergo was to quit work.
R: That's the truth, that ain't the truth I'll never speak again.
D: It hasn't been but how many years since youuh, I believe I saw you cutting
ditch-bank and so forth, a few years ago.
R: Been abut two years, just about three years now. I got cut you know, I fell
in the ditch and got cut up bad and that frightened me off brn= I bled.
D: You were active after eighty on the farm.
R: Oh, yes. Yes sir.
D: Well, thank you very much.
R: You're welcome, buddy.

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