Citation

## Material Information

Title:
Interview with Lloyd Lowry, July 20, 1970
Creator:
Lowry, Lloyd ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:
1970

## Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Lumbee Oral History Collection ( local )

## Record Information

Source Institution:
University of Florida
Holding Location:
University of Florida
Rights Management:
Resource Identifier:
LUM 206 ( SPOHP IDENTIFIER )

Full Text
LUM 206A
Subject: Mr. Loyd Lowry
7-20-70
D: This is August the 20th, 1970. Adolph Dial interviewing Mr.
Loyd Lowry. Excuse me, July, July the 20th, 1970. Adolph Dial
interviewing Mr. Loyd Lowry of the SesLE Tue- Community. Mr.
Lowry, when were you born, Mr. Lowry?
L: 1880, January the Lth.
D: January the 8th, 1880. I suppose you remember what they call the
shake, or what Walston referred to as the Charleston Earthquake.
Would you tell us a little something about that?
L: Well, I was seven years old, and it was hot weather. And I slept
on the floor, make a pallet down, and I slept on the floor. I had
gone to sleep, right after dark. And what woke me 5 pulling me
w\s( cL'frG -
up and some of the women of th4 I didn't know what. So, I
remember, after we got in the yard, hearing some of the dishes rattle in
the-housqI didn't realize nothing about the shake, I heard that part
from &aNSr but the rest did. We didn't live far from the old lady
that raised me. We didn't live far from her, from her sister. And
so St Scvc
her sister's name is Sister Anne, andAshe said, "Let's go to sit
T-ewn." We got down there, she had all of her children out at the
WJ CS p- /9
gate, and they, some of them-wlere crying, the father of them was a
?coP they weren't her children. And, of course, you could
hear the people all over the community crying, and going on, but they
were
D: I guess some of them thought Judgement had come.
L: Yes. Lot of themthought it was Judgement, and some of them said
it was Judgement. When we come up to the gate fe-sy~ou old women

LUM 206A 2
sj
and the children sV saidhey didn't know.
D: Mr. Lowry, I thinking of your childhood days, would you tell us a
conditions, and working, and the kind of work you did, and so forth,
and something that might be of interest at this day and age?
L: Well, when I came along and got large enough to do anything, my first
bit of work maybe was picking a little g-arrend I growed along and
finally got larger, and the old man that I was a gift to, I was a
giveaway child, the old man that I was a gift to worked turpentine,
that >i$6-oo- a way of living. D: Quite a few people were engaged in turpentine back then, weren't they? L: The whole country, yeah. D: Where did the, where did they, what did they do with the turpentine, andlwhen they finished, where did they send it? L: Well, whenever they'd dip, and put it in barrels, they'd sellit, and then, like R.H. Livermore, you had a p4-t, and took varied things, and you'd send it down, and sell it to them, and they'd manufacture, they'd do whatever it was they done to get the oil out and the'd get turpentine. D: Other than farming and turpentine, what kind of other work did you do back in that day? Do you remember them rafting logs down the river any? L: Yes, and I've seen it many a time, why, you up here, about a hundred yards down from the road, I've seen them many raft a log. D: I guess the swamps were fuller than they are now. LUM 206A 3 sj L: Well, we'd have dry spells back then, of course, but there seemed to be more rain in those days than there is now. D: Where did you say your logs, where would they send their logs from this area when they cut them down and put them in the swamp? L: Well, they took them to LuLt___ to a man by the name of Williams. D: To a sawmill? L: Um humm. D: Now, I understand that some down Lumber River, they sent them all the way to Georgetown, South Carolina. Do you remember hearing...? L: L 0lmi J _A_ C different times about rafting logs to Georgetown, and then walking back home. D: What was his name? L: Herbie. I (ruI D: Herbie Lowry? I 2,VrJ L: Herbie Lowry'. D: Herman Lowry. Now I believe you said yesterday that you knew Mr. Wash Lowry. L: Yes, that is my great-uncle. D: Do you recall any stories of hearing Mr. Wash Lowry talk about the old times, anything? i L: Well, I never was-around__him so much, that we'd go visit him sometimes on the short stay, or we'd stay all night, and sometime.... D: During the Civil War, of course, you were not living then, but you knew, you talked t people in your young days about the people who remember the Yankees coming through, do you remember, do you remember any stories of the Yankees coming through, what they told, and so forth? LUM 206A 4 L: I remember hearing the old folks talk and telling the story about the Yankees, intending to set the smokehouse afire, that's what I was always told. And they had big guns firing, and as they were drawing near, and they got afraid of the Yankees, and they turned them out. Said, the Yankees coming through, save that goose life. I expect there's a man Brook, the old man IjeJ] Lowry raised, and he has got some great-grandchildren, some grandchildren and great-grandchildren around Cambridge and Berry Park, and about building, building &01009Z as a relief in those, Brooks had shut up in the snow house that the old man had D: Of course, H \\/ Lowry was the father of Henry Berry owry. L: Yeah. He is the father of William, too. William, and Allen was both killed by the, let me see, what was... D: There was, let's see, there was Henry Berry, and William, and there was Patrick and Tom and Steve and Calvin, and aady they called Aunt Pert, and that's all I recall of them right now. But there were several of those, of the Lowry's. Adam Lowry's children. And Henry Berry Lowry had something, I believe there's about nine in that family. L: Thinking about the beginning of the Lowry family, CIt) man by the name of James Lowry came here from West Virginia, purchased some land by grant, up there around and]i$^tKrs GFo- built a
bridge across the river, the It was a toll bridge. And
he stayed and handled that stuff, I don't know what else his
enterprise was, but eventually, he went back to Virginia and his
son, James, they called him James the second. And he finally
married alTsc~ror Indian girl by the name of Prisilla Berry
And I think she was one of the most beautiful women most of us

LUM 206A 5
saw. He said about her beauty, and how fancy she was. And that,
at the beginning, at the Lowry's, are the bright Lowry's, the white
Lowry's, some called them.
D: I noticed some Lowry's spell their name L-O-W-R-Y, and some
L-O-W-E-R-Y. I believe you spell yours L-O-W-E-R-Y. Can you tell
me how this came about? Some spelling it L-O-W-R-Y, and some
L-O-W-E-R-Y?
L: I know I learned it L-O-W-R-I-E, but later I got the right name,
L-O-W-E-R-Y.
e---Q
D: You spelled yours once L-O-W-IR--IE, Pyou say?
L: No. I mean, yes.
D: Oh, you don't spell yours L-O-W-E-R-Y now?
L: Ve | Do L 9-_.
D: Oh, yeah. Well, there seems to be three spellings, L-O-W-R-Y,
and then, L-O-W-E-R-Y, and....
L: ...L-O-W-R-I-E.
D: Yeah, that's right. So you think this just more or less, just
L: Yes, just happened to come about.
D: I see. Now you, have you always lived in the Saddle Creek community?
L: No, I was born, in the .lA'< Loev,'tl V.r~
D: Up where Taylor Lloyd lives?
L: Yes.
D: Is that right? Up in prospect community.
L: Yeah, I was born there, and stayed there seven months, and it was
hard times just fifteen years, oh, about fifteen years after the
Civil War. Times were so hard, my mother give me to the old man
//_1V_ Lowry. About seven months old.

LUM 206A 6
D: Did you ever hear any of them tell about Uncle Wash Lowry going
out west among the Indians?
L: I remember Shat' I remember that well, and I remember him coming
back, and I went to, to his meetings that he had. And I remember
one of the words he used a lot in speaking to the young men, he'd
say, "Go west, young man, go west."
D: Did he want them to leave here?
L: Wanted them to leave here and go to Indian territory.
D: Go to Indianterritory. He thought there'd be, what did he think?
L: He said they could make a better living there. And they'd be better
recognized.
D: Wonder why he didn't stay out there when he was gout there?
L: Well, he had a family back here.
D: Now, how did he go out to the Indian Trritory, I guess he went
to what's now Oklahoma?
L: Yes. He went on the train. In the train, in fact, the people
hoping, that were interested in the railroad, Indian people, they
helped him. And he stayed out there about a year.
D: What year did he die, do you recall?
L: No, I don't, I don't remember what year the old man Wash died.
D: Now, way back-then, lot's of the fellows that walked the
I understand, from Penbroke.
L: The old man Wash walked there and back in a day.
D: Yeah, that's what I heard.
L: He's the walkingest man I ever heard of. He had the old lady,
seO
Catherine, say his wife, -h- one morning he got up, and the old
man Washsaid, "Catherine, get me a JT~&L."
D: "Get me a what?"

LUM 206A 7
L: A jug. Gi )I/ f v So j y r KZ a man, Smith, he was aquainted
with, and that he thought of, and run a 4 I'm going
to step up to Smith, and c At & )0 -C A /j)ptt And she said,
whenever, that is at night, at night, and they'd meet
and the next morning, the way the house was built, when the sun
rose, the sun shines right into the kitchen. Just as the sun
shines into the kitchen, Wash stepped up'to the door, had walked
to and back that night. And SFl "You need breakfast?"
Took his broadaxe and went on up the river, cut timber that day,
he had to a man, a terribly. Terrible with the
D: So he walked to _il_ that night, and returned, and went to
the woods the next day with his broadaxe to work?
L: That's right.
D: Well, I would say that was quite a lot of work. Now, in the
Saddle --reck community, did the Lowry gang ever hang out down this
way any?
L: Well, I, yes, there's some down in here some.
D: Do you recall....
L: Right across here there's an old.home, used to be a station right
down there, and that's the old Ferdy Lowry home, he has a brother,
D: What was his name?
L: Ferdy. The old lady, the old man Ferdy Lowry.
D: How did Saddle Creek get it's name, I've heard some stories about
that.
L: I don't know, that's one thing I don't know, it's had it for
._ _- COPJ i))L D,/^r^ /^7OA -!X JI kno.^ JTA n SrL. LI Or

LUM 206A 8
D: Well, someone told me that some soldiers came through once, and
they cut a ,cut a tree, cut a saddle out of a tree, and they called
L: Well, I never did hear that.
D: Well, you might have, the ___(\_., the registered deeds in
Lumberton, was telling me that once. Did you attend school in your
early days any?
L: Yes, I went to one school when I was six years old in January, and
I, come in August I went to school.
L: Yes.
D: Now, where did you attend school?
L: Union Chapel.
D: Union Chapel? Way back in 1886?
L: Yes. We moved from there that year, and moved up above Bear Swamp
to what was called Strickland Place. It belonged to
e 4- +c
-th-at time. And during that year, this track of land here was put up '<
for sale for a debt, and the old man the old man / d4'L k-s \$ \'r
but he went down and somebody, his father-in-law, src/t-l A,.
if the land was going to be sold, then he might
underbid, 205 dollars. And I pay'much more than that on it for tax.
D: Now, one interesting thing here you mention about the school, Union
Chapel. Apparently they had a little school out in Union Chapel
before the normal, in 1887, when it was established there by W. L.
Moore, is that right?
L: I guess so, yeah.
D: If you were six years old and going out to Union Chapel, then they
had a little school there even before the normal of 1887. Do you

LUM 206A 9
L: Johnson S4-i\,&r from Columbus County.
D: I imagine he was some relation, do you know if he was related to
W.L. Moore of Columbus County?
L: Well, I don't know, but some of his kinfolk that I know, Lloyd
SrIll,&f married a girl that, it seems to -R- is a cousin, to
D: You mean my grandfather?
L; Yes.
D: Yes, Preacher Moore, they called him. Well, now, Preacher Moore
came here along in 1876, that was about four years before you were
born, and, I wonder why, why did it happen that some of the early
teachers came out of Columbus County. Do you have any explanation
on that?
better, they had some teachers, some good teachers, too. The old
man Johnson -- !: --_rJ ,---- __
D: Mr. Lowry, you seem to have acquired a right good education for back
in your day, how did you get this, mostly on your own?
L: Well, I went to a little school, you know, and after I always would
study books some, and after I married, my wife went, she had went
'-el p
to more school than I had ever went to, and she could .hae, she helped
me some. This problem, she could help me solve, that I couldn't
D: Other than your farming, let's say when you were up about sixteen or
seventeen, what was your life like around, do you remember the hard
times? I know you remember them in 1896, the Depression, I believe,

LUM 206A 10
they said they had a hard depression around 1896, back when Grover.....
L: Grover Cleveland was President. I remember that mighty well.
It seemed to me like we've had a harder depression since then, than
we did then.
D: How would you compare the time before the turn of the century with
the depression in the 1930's?
L: Well, 1930 was about as bad a depression that I have any recollection
of. I remember two, possibly two depressions, one depression before
1930. I remember one.
D: Which one are you.referrifg to?
L; It was in the 90's.
D: Yes, around '96.
L: Yeah.
D: What was your diet like mostly in your young days? When you were
a boy?
L: Well, we grew corn a little, not much, not much farming i4-woJt) ~i
We grew corn, and grew hogs, and sometimes kill a beef, -~h-
the cattle out of the woods, IRtlccact U*cpretty good. There were
opportunities then that aren't now, people
that didn't have, we didn't have no land of our own, I mean the
old man didn't have none of his own, until they bought this.
'Course they was clothes, and he loved money. And
he'd try to hold "i his money, and let his debts go. And his daughter
got him in debt when he got old, he was eighty when he died. He
was in bad circumstance, owed more money than the land would have
brought. I t.'c- je 14 eJ put up and sold.
D: What is your idea on the origin of the Indian people, the Lumbee
people of Robertson County?

LUM 206A 11
L: Well, I've heard this theory. You know, the Lowry's, and
John Lowry, he was the chief, and the tribe did, residing in Roanoke,
Virginia, and there was another man by the name of Will, Lazy Will
we called him, he was a sub-chief, he was under John Lowry, so I
don't know, I ain't got no way of telling how they found out about
a place in South CArolina. But they did it annually, fish and hunt,
it was good hunting ground, good fishing ground, and they'd go
and come and they made a trail, it was called the Lowry Trait as a
result of the tribe's leader was John Lowry. And finally, I believe
it was in '65, I don't, better not try to think about it
when he comes, a group here, I used to remember their name, Bron....
Oh, I can't think of his name now, the man who headed the I 2-I:
he'd come here to &Oj-?Q the Indians. And in that effort, they
made a road out in the trail that they called the Lowry Trail, and
they changed the name from Lowry Trail to Lowry Road, so he still
carries a little bit of. And just think about the Lowry
Road, some people that sold them out know what it meant, to
D: Did you ever hear any, someone said there used to drive turkeys and
chickens to market, was that true?
L: Turkeys and ducks, um humm. Yeah, the old man raised me, and drove
turkeys and geese, and different times, -h V-\nrin-:, '-
D: What would you do at night with them?
L: They had some way of taking care of them.
D: I guess they'd stop and let them roost in the trees.
L: No, they didn't, not....
D: I've heard people talk about, said the old people drove turkeys to
the market, chickens, I guess so to the market, I noticed some of

LUM 206A 12
L: Yeah, that was the road -t4- cosAss t>_ William's Bridge.
People have come through some hard, some hard places.
some way.
D: Mr. Lowry, back I remember, for way back several years, you've been
active in what I call a Church Community Sing iW, and establishing
choirs in the various communities and so forth. As a matter of fact,
you went up to Prospect once. When did you first go up there, would
L: 1922. I don't remember what month it was in, but it was 1922.
D: Did someone contact you to go up there?
L: Yes, sire, Mr. Luther Moore.
D: Tell us about it, and what did you do when you got there, and all?
L: Well, we had, I picked it up some way or another, I got ahold of it
so I could sing the scale, and made the sound, and rcca-arc'-
D: You knew the notes, didn't you?
L: I.learned the notes,oh yeah, you have to know them, you have to know
them by sound. And I learned the notes and I taught classes all
over the country, a lot of times I would have two classes going,
I'd meet one class Sunday morning, and meet another class in the
afternoon. Go to conventions and __ C.oi .
D: It seems like here lately that the singing conventions are coming
back into style again. I've been attending some recently.
L: Yeah. And you go buy the instrument.
D: Well, I just go to hear them sing, course they probably, they learn
a different way now, but, and they do have instruments and so forth.
Now, when you started way back, did you have a piano, or organ or

LUM 206A 13
anything? You didn't have anything?
L: No. I learned the sounds, and after learning the sounds, learned
the time, the two vital points in vocal music are the sounds and
the time. Important, -aetl important, the singers to know the notes,
to know the rudiments of music. It's one thing, the people that
livedN'like I did, there is nothing hardly that you could have
brought about that I'd have enjoyed better than I did hytfjij -o
that group of youing-people that is well trained, and had their
sounds and time well, and it blended together, if it makes a
sweet sound and that sweet sound is enjoyed by o
D: What, we've had various theories to what happened to Henry Bear
Lowry, and of course, I know no one seems to know, but what do
you think happened, do you think he went away, or do you think
he died?
L: My, from what I hear is, from what people told me, I never believed
he lived. That's my theory. Lowry said one time, he was
down in Florida to work, the turpentine, and he said there was a
man there that had boasted fikMtJ. He said that man, he noticed,
watched him a lot. Said he looked like he was interesting to the
man, he didn't say nothing, but he just stand there and watch him.
Look at him a lot. Said one day, he asked him, "Is your name
Lowry?" Said he told him yes. "Where are you from?" He told
him North Carolina. "What part of North Carolina?" And he told
him Robertson County. And, so he said he asked him a whole lot of
how they were getting along, said he asked him so many questions
after you studied about it, he come to the conclusion he was interested
some way, some how, to the Lowry5s. Eventually, he said he come

LUM 206A 14
home, and he said he had decided he believed that was Henry
Bear Lowry, and they had always feared that Daniel Berry, and
one of the Brooks men, lived there in Htarrt, ti'- t :J, why,
I can't think.of that name right now, but anyway, Aaron rrv'i cfL
seemed to be special friends. So Hubbard said he went to see,
you wanted to find out if he still had his picture, yes, he carried
it, she had his picture. Said she went in the trunk and brought
it out, and they said it was the very picture.
L: Well, I'm, my mind ain't active like it used to be. She says
Lucianne's got a picture of him.
D: How old is Miss Lucianne?
L: She's in her sixties.
D: Mr. Lowry, John Dial, he lived near the Saddle CFak community
and was one of the Lowry gang. Will you tell Mrs. Story of
what little you have heard, and know about John Dial?
L: I know very little about the old man John, in connection with
the outlaws. He talked to me some, aid told me things, and he was
along the night Sheriff King was killed. And was accused of
killing Sheriff King. When he was on his deathbed, he told people
he always accused of killing Sheriff King, but there was a colored
man along, and they said that he was the man that fired the gun
that killed, that's what John said.
D: Yes, the colored man was Shoemaker John, I believe his name was.
And of course, you're right, there, John, they did claim him,
turn him state evidence, and say he stayed in jail, what was the
story about him returning after he got out?

LUM 206A 15
L: Who?
D: John, you said, you told me a while ago, he stayed in jail awhile,
afraid to return, because of the state evidence that he turned
in on the fellows.
L: Yeah, he turned in evidence that, they called it state evidence,
he bought him a home, joining my land, right down below that
station down there is owned, that little tract of land. He lived
there alone till he died. Course, he give it to the family down
the road, it was his oldest friend, Smith, that
stayed with him, and they looked after him, and they got his
property. Yeah, that's right ____ 'L___
D: You say he was so weak, he had to carry a parasol, an umbrella?
Why?
it I guess when he returned, the Lowrys had disappeared, or whatever
Henry Bear Lowry was never seen any more around here after 1872?
And the last of the Lowrys died in 1874? Do you remember any
incidents, did he tell you anything other than Sheriff King
L: Well, he'd talk things, speak things. He said one time he felt
like if he ever saw a true prophet, Henry Bear was one. He said
he had a way, when he was studying to do something, had a way of
sitting down and lock his hands, like that,
said he'd get off to himself, over there somewhere,
speaking to him, and he said, whenever he got through, said,
"Boys, put on your arms, let's go do something to them." Said
they never knew him to fail. Said the night they killed Sheriff

LUM 206A 16
King, they were way up on L.tt g And he said,
he said to them, "Let's go kill r,--1 ,1,' let's go
kill Sheriff King." They went and got the boat, got on the boat,
way up there, I don't know whether 'tFhe r' xr or on this
side, or just what, but it is somewhere between from Harper City
down to /,'L.o Landing, where the boat is at. And they got on
the boat and went on down there, and of course, it happened. And
Sheriff King was killed.
D: I'd say they killed Sheriff King at the courthouse, or where?
No, at his home. Where did he live?
L: Right where the old bridge, it's still standing, you know when you
cross the old bridge, it was just about a hundred, it might a couple
of hundred yards from there to the place where the old King house
stood.
D: That was close by the Kirby farm, I suppose? Do you recall, that's
very interesting, do you recall any other incidents, or stories
that he told?
L: Well, I, I might. Of course, it's hard to remember some things
(BREAK IN TAPE)
supper, aren't you? Mr. Lowry, speaking of John Dial, the, why did
he, why do you think he went with the Lowry gang?
L: Well, I don't know any more than he c __.Strong, are
special friends. They were pals when they were young men, right
young men, you know. Boys sometimes can get so attached to each
other till they live to be together.
D: Most of the people that I talk with, the Indian people, seems to
have a great deal of respect for the Lowry gang. What would

LUM 206A 17
L: Well, I expect it ought to, because the Lowrys, I like the thought
of what we--e called. That gang, they constituted, set the laws
of Robertson County. And:every word they said, was law. And
anyway, they were going to, were planning to make havoc for the
Indian people, I'm being told, and when Henry Bear got outlawed,
why, of course, he, being so skillful, and he tore up their plans,
he had the white man saying, he said, that was one time the white
people planned a thing and got whipped in their own plan. It's
said that Henry Bear killed about twenty-six men himself. I
don't know. That's a bunch of people for one man to kill.
D: I imagine a lot of things that were done that was accused on the
Lowry gang that they didn't do.
L: That's right, I imagine, I've heard that spoke of many times,
and I've heard the old man John say it, that the Lowry's weren't
guilty of everything that they were accused of. They were accused
of going to LeIge.iAi4o and taking the safe out of the McCloud store.
I know you've heard it. They might have, some of them had a little
something to do'with it, but there was white people that had some-
thing to do with it.
D: In other words, you don't think the taking the safe, let's see,
it was from the courthouse, was it?
L: No, it was from the McCloud building.
D: Oh, yes, the McCloud building, yes, you don't feel that John Dial
didn't feel that was all the Lowry gang alone, is that right?
L: No, it weren't. Here's the idea. That safe is in that store,
that store was locked up and left, as usual, at night, when the
days work is over, they went on tb their homes, supposed to, but

LUM 206A 18
how in the world could them, could some of the gang get the key
to open the door, know where to go to get the bridle they put on .
the drey horse that pulled the stage, and it was broker ,i'd V i '' drey,
and broke down on _side that they Mill, and
take it down the side of the Lumber River, and there's where they
cut it open and got the money.
D: What spot was that on Lumber River?
7
L: It was right near the 7ctVC- 'old Mill.
D: The D Mill, where they cut open the safe.
L: Right near it.
D: Did you ever hear how much money was in that safe?
L: No, I hadn't. I imagine it was right smart.
D: Do you recall anything else that Mr. Dial said that they Lowry
gang was accused of, that they were not necessarily involved in?
L: Not particularly, I couldn't, exactly tell, nothing like that,
that I can remember now, it's been a good while. Naturally, you
know, time has an effect on things.
D: Yes. But I think you're right there in saying that the Lowry gang
was perhaps accused of many things that they did not do. I'm still
looking for that first Indian who didn't have a great deal of respect
for the Lowry's, it seems like one hundred percent respect for the
Lowry gang, and, of course, I too have a great deal of respect for
them, too.
L: Well, my mother and Henry Bear was first cousins. So I'm a little
kin to him, I reckon.
D: Yes, your mother and Henry Bear were first cousins. What was your
mother's father's name?
L: Alfred.

LUM 206A 19
D: Alfred, um hmm.
L: That was -4%- Wo~' i Alfred and Allen was brothers.
D: Alfred Lowry and Allen Lowry was brothers, and Alfred was your
mother's father. So that puts you some kin to the Lowry gang
yourself.
L: Yes.
D: Mr. Lowry, what kin was your wife to Henry Bear Lowry?
L: Henry Bear was her uncle.
D: What was your wife's father's name?
L: Patrick V-,c^ ', Preacher Patrick.
D: Yes, and Mr. Patrick was a brother of Henry Bear.
L: Yes. And he was considered the leading, one of the leading preachers
of his day.
D: Mr. Patrick, where did he live?
L: You know where down Bucky _____ is there? That was his, that
was his place .
D: And down on Bucky farm was the Patrick Lowry Farm, and that joined
the Wash Lowry place, didn't it?
L: No.
D: No? Well, the Lloyd law, I mean the the Taylor Lloyd place today,
wasn't that where, somewhere around there?
L: That's the Wash Lowry land.
D: That's the Wash Lowry land? Well, it's not very far from the, from
the, yeah, about a mile from the other land there, the Patrick Lowry,
um hum, and the Wash Lowry. Let's see, what kin was Wash Lowry and
Patrick Lowry?
L: Well, I lot _- 4 pi Sa_______
D: Mr. Lowry, did you ever do any hunting, fox hunting or any kind of

LUM 206A 20
hunting?
L: I did everything that walked thereabout. Possum, squirrel, rabbit,
coon, possum, mink, if fox, ., foxes by the year, and
finally got into deer hunting some. I've killed two or three
deer. I got a lot of kick out of it, I never got to go this
last winter, I.....
X:
L: Oh, Lord, I couldn't hardly tell him. I left here one morning
before day, never eat nothing, I'd thought I'd be back before
twelve o'clock, and I told my dog to wait yonder between Lumber
Bridge and iCr_^ki__ _', and heading sunset, I caught them,
and caught them, and I had to walk from above Lumber
Bridge home, and I hadn't ate a mouthful all day long.
D: How far is Lumber Bridge from here?
D: And were they still running that -ax?
L: Yes. I had to run in my old age till I told him.
L: Grey.
D: A grey fox, will he run farther than a red fox?
L: No, that red fox is the largest fox, and is a tough fellow, he's
a tough being. He takes you a ride. Know what I used to call it?
D: Well, this long trip was quite unusual for a grey fox that day,
wasn't it?
L: I don't know, anything called a fox can get about. Yes sir.
D: Did you do much coon hunting?
L: When I was a right young boy, about seventeen year old, I got
hold of a hound dog, a fine blooded dog, and I trained him, I,

LUM 206A 21
it was no trouble to train him. And I caught fifty-five coons
in Saddle Tree in one winter, we did.
D: Fifty-five with one dog?
L: With one dog.
D: Fifty-five coons in one winter with one dog, that's good hunting.
I suppose you'd hunt pretty well all night, and work the next day?
L: Well, I hunted more of the morning. I'd go to the swamp where I
knowed the coons were, about daybreak, that's the time they are
going to their den. That's the way I wanted to handle them.
L: If I cut him down, he's in his den, he'll stay in there. And when
he comes out, and you cut to him and run him out, the dog could
catch him.
D: So that's the advantage of going early in the morning? Now, how
many years has it been since you quit coon hunting?
L: Oh, I expect twenty-five or thirty.
D: Have you done any hunting at all in recent years?
L: Deer is my last hunting.
D: When did you quit deer hunting?
L: I never went this last winter that I wanted.
D: Did you go two years ago?
L: Yes.
D: So you were deer hunting at age eighty-eight?
L: Yes.
D: Did you kill a deer two years ago?
L: No, I don't believe, I ain't going to say.
D: Now, back to your young days. Did any of the boys sell any fur?
L: Yes, that's what I hunted for, was the fur.

LUM 206A 22
D: This was a little different from the old Indian tradition of get
what you needed and stop, wasn't it?
L: Well, that is a good, a pretty good thing. With reference to
game, there's no use in destroying the game if you don't need it.
Now, if it's a sport, let's o2kcI -_-L Snr' .
D: Do you believe in, more or less, in people hunting and taking
what they need, and all lines open to anybody who wants to hunt
them?
L: Well, have to be intelligently about it.
D: Mr. Lowry, I've heard my mother, and many other peoples speak of
ghosts back in their young days. And of course, there's some
very interesting stories on ghosts and pL-cJs and so forth,
would you care to relate one or two stories along this line?
L: Well, there's a _vL__ down here, crossing place to cross
Saddle ereek, called V0motJ- Ford. There was a man killed at
the other end of the dam, by the name of John Kale, I believe,
he was a tailor, itL-'J was -yong or not, but years after that,
people said it the same. Well, I always, didn't think much of it,
I was at Yi& A'. ?swamp one night, and started home, I was coming
home, got down to the footway, and we walked -ox- loAj- ~jlc-;- lS/ /tci(J s~
long leafed pine trees, long leafed _cTf and they was one
lying on the ground, and I got up on the footway that I walked across
on, that was up on the. creek-to fill it up, the- leg. I saw
something that was lying, I thought it was a man lying on the
footway down there. I went on by the thing, and it run on to
the other end, the way I come from, and it got on the log I was on,
and come up behind me, and we had a battle there, I don't know
what. I'm never knowing what that was.

LUM 206A 23
D: That is very interesting.
L: It never .'bit me, it was in the dark, I couldn't, and it was
all over so quick.
D: Do you believe in p2 ";9 before people die?
L: Well, I, expect I do a little.
X Cl,_ Ofor\A, I, 6Pt.7rct'~!tJ -- 1I' l f(, ,7),
L: I believe that was witchcraft, some type of witchcraft. I had
a man here helping me dig the stumps, and he come to dinner,
he'd eat dinner with me. We, my wife would put the dinner on
the table, and he would go ahead out, getting the children taken
care of, and I'd eat later. Well, we had ea t-g, sitting there
talking, and she got ready to eat, and directly she picked up
a bew--of bread, about that size there, just as round a pretty,
and it was cornbread, fresh cooked, and it was throwed in my, in
A-
her plate. She picked it up, says, "Which of you boys throwed
that in my plate?" I said it weren't me. The other man said,
"Why, why, it weren't me." She said, "You ain't telling the
truth, it was one of you." I affirmed it wasn't me, I knowed

it wasn't me, and I knowed it wasn't William Dowl. It was neither
one of us that could have made a little piece of bread that was
fresh-cooked, you could tell it was fresh-cooked, could have
Well, we sat down and talked about it, and that day, two weeks,
this other man weren't there. The same thing happened again.
I had a rifle, a new rifle, I grabbed that rifle, and I run out
and looked'under the house, and everywhere that I could, I thought,
until I don't know what it did to me, but I knowed that it was
something stranger but it never did happen no more for me to

LUM 206A 24
know it, them two times was, that, I asked, I went to IRolPc__
one time with Ruby Oxenbang. You knsw Ruby. Me and Ruby's cousins.
Her mother and me was first cousins. And she went in and talked
to a man, and she come out and said, "So and so said for you
to go in there, wanted to talk to you." I went in there, he
that I just told you of, said that was, oh, I can't think of
what he told me, but he said that if I knew the sixth and seventh
book of Moses, I could do the same thing.
D: Was he speaking of witchcraft?
L: Yes. Said I could do the same thing.
D: I'll have to read the sixth and seventh book of Moses to see
what it says about witchcraft. Now, one other question I wanted
to ask before we run out of our tape here, do you think race
relations have improved a lot over the years among the people
here, the Indian?
L: I now i \has, ad theIndian has got' miore respect / for thmselve
th they ha seventy-fivey ars ago.
(END OF SIDE ONE)

LUM 206A 25
Side 2
L: I know it has, and the Indian people has got more respect for
themselves that they had seventy-five years ago. Yes, sir, I
know.
D: Why has this improvement come about?
L: How?
D: Why has it come about?
L: Well, it was necessary, and as time goes on, and they experience
taught them mighty good lessons, you know, experience teaches
the perfect lesson. And this teaching, and their realizing what
needed to be done things, didn't do way behind yonder when we
ain't got no use for it. And I seen that there's right much
improvement.
D: Well, thank you, Mr. Lowry, and....
L: IrI ^) -'7* k t, C
D: We're signing off now, this is July the 20th, 1970, signing off
the interview with Mr. Lloyd Lowry, of the Saddle -G-ee1 community.
(END OF TAPE)

Full Text

PAGE 1

LUM 206A Subject: Mr. Loyd Lowry Interviewer: Adolph Dial 7-20-70 D: This is August the 20th, 1970. Adolph Dial interviewing Mr. Loyd Lowry. Excuse me, July, July the 20th, 1970. Adolph Dial interviewing Mr. Loyd Lowry of the s~'\:>')IX '\tt.e.<-Community. Mr. Lowry, when were you born, Mr. Lowry? L: 1880, January the ith. D: January the 8th, 1880. I suppose you remember what they call the shake, or what Walston referred to as the Charleston Earthquake. Would you tell us a little something about that? L: Well, I was seven years old, and it was hot weather. And I slept on the floor, make a pallet down, and I slept on the floor. I had gone to sleep, right after dark. And what woke me 15 pulling me ---1,J f\ '> A C C.'/INGup and some of the women e-f-:t.h.e. ___ , I didn't know what. So, I \ remember, after we got in the yard, hearing some of the dishes rattle in D: L: thehous~I didn't realize nothing about the shake, I heard that part . l~'\ from f~Ns, , but the rest did. We didn't live far from the old lady that raised me. We didn't live far from her, from her sister. And '30 her sister's name is Sister Anne, and;she (-h,111
PAGE 2

LUM 206A sj ".,..>~ i;-b (._ and the children w~ s$$, said~hey didn't know. } 2 D: Mr. Lowry, I thinking of your childhood days, would you tell us a little about your childhood days? And what it was like, living conditions, and working, and the kind of work you did, and so forth, and something that might be of interest at this day and age? L: Well, when I came along and got large enough to do anything, my first l. ti f+o r.J bit of work maybe was picking a little~ I growed along and finally got larger, and the old man that I was a gift to, I was a giveaway child, the old man that I was a gift to worked turpentine, that ~ers &ocxla way of living. D: Quite a few people were engaged in turpentine back then, weren't they? L: The whole country, yeah. D: Where did the, where did they, what did they do with the turpentine, ,t\,-.1-\ and,lwhen they finished~' where did they send it? L: Well, whenever they'd dip, and put it in barrels, they'd sellit, and +kt rnerJ s-\-\\\ like R.H. Livermore, you had a p-H"!, and took _____ varied things, and you'd send it down, and sell it to th,em, and they'd manufacture, they'd do whatever it was they done to get the oil out and the'd get turpentine. D: Other than farming and turpentine, what kind of other work did you do back in that day? Do you remember them rafting logs down the river any? L: Yes, and I've seen it many a time, why, you up here, about a hundred yards down from the road, I've seen them many raft a log. D: I guess the swamps were fuller than they are now. PAGE 3 LUM 206A sj 3 L: Well, we'd have dry spells back then, of course, but there seemed to be more rain in those days than there is now. D: Where did you say your logs, where would they send their logs from this area when they cut them down and put them in the swamp? L: Well, they took them to Ll,lrr..1otrt...\-o.J D: To a sawmill? L: Um humm. to a man by the name of Williams. D: Now, I understand that some down Lumber River, they sent them all the way to Georgetown, South Carolina. Do you remember hearing ... ? ~,,,._~\\ L: 1LollW'i'.o-\lc.l ~1r--'-.\ ~(,b--l'different times about rafting logs to Georgetown, and then walking back home. D: What was his name? L: Herbie. / n.vr iJ D: Herbie Lowry? I n,111"1 L: Herbie Lowrf. D: I fl.VIN Herman Lowry. Now I believe you sa~d yesterday that you knew Mr. Wash Lowry. L: Yes, that is my great-uncle. D: Do you recall any stories of hearing Mr. Wash Lowry talk about the old times, anything? 1, e."-c,.,'"r't' L: Well, I never was .. around .... him so much, tJ:Hrt we'd go visit him sometimes on the short stay, or we'd stay all night, and sometime .... D: "During the Civil War, of course, you were not living then, but you w \ .\'\-. knew, you talked ___:to-"people in your young days about the people who remember the Yankees coming through, do you remember, do you remember any stories of the Yankees coming through, what they told, and so forth? PAGE 4 LUM 206A 4 L: I remember hearing the old folks talk and telling the story about the Yankees, intending to set the smokehouse afire, that's what I was always told. And they had big guns afiring, and as they were drawing near, and they got afraid of the Yankees, and they turned them out. Said, the Yankees coming through, save that goose life. I expect there's a man Brook, the old man A\ l eiJ Lowry raised, and he has got some great-grandchildren, some grandchildren and greatgrandchildren around. Cambridge and Berry Park, and about building., building b(LvO\-(S as a relief in those, Brooks had _sh_ut up in the snow house that the old man had D: Of course, (-)\JtN Lowry was the father of Henry Berry\owry. L: Yeah. He is the father of William, too. William, and Allen was both killed by the, let me see, what was ... D: There was, let's see, there was Henry Berry, and William, and there was Patrick and Tom and Steve and Calvin, and Qady they called Aunt Pert, and that's all I recall of them right now. But there were several of those, of the Lawry's. Adam Lawry's children. And Henry Berry Lowry had something, I believe there's about nine in that family. L: Thinking about the beginning of the Lowry family, \~vP~, man by the name of James Lowry came here from West Virginia, purchased some land by grant, up there around and~,1tpJtn.s fcVllP---1 , built a bridge across the river, the __ . It was a toll bridge. And he stayed and handled that stuff, I don't know what else his enterprise was, but eventually, he went back to Virginia and his son, James, they called him James the second. And he finally married a Jusc,.,,noM,J Indian girl by the name of Prisilla Berry And I think she was one of the most beautiful women most of us PAGE 5 LUM 206A 5 saw. He said about her beauty, and how fancy she was. And that, at the beginning, at the Lawry's, are the bright Lawry's, the white Lawry's, some called them. D: I noticed some Lawry's spell their name L-O-W-R-Y, and some L-O-W-E-R-Y. I believe you spell yours L-O-W-E-R-Y. Can you tell me how this came about? Some spelling it L-O-W-R-Y, and some L-O-W-E-R-Y? L: I know I learned it L-O-W-R-I-E, but later I got the right name, L-O-W-E-R-Y. e--n,-Q__ D: You spelled yours once L-O-W-'R--I~ ~ou say? L: No. I mean, yes. D: Oh, you don't spell yours L-O-W-E-R-Y now? L: Ye7; &o Gow.e-~~ D: Oh, yeah. Well, there seems to be three spellings, L-O-W-R-Y, and then, L-O-W-E-R-Y, and .... L: ... L-O-W-R-I-E. D: Yeah, that's right. So you think this just more or less, just happened to come about? L: Yes, just happened to come about. D: I see. Now you, have you always lived in the Saddle Creek community? L: No, I was born, in the LJ\,4-c lowe 1 P-'\ f"A'~.l'V' D: Up where Taylor Lloyd lives? L: Yes. D: Is that right? Up in prospect community. L: Yeah, I was born there, and stayed there seven months, and it was hard times just fifteen years, oh, about fifteen years after the Civil War. Times were so hard, my mother give me to the old man Lowry. About seven months old. PAGE 6 LUM 206A D: Did you ever hear any of them tell about Uncle Wash Lowry going out west among the Indians? 6 L: I remember -,');hat , . I remember that we 11, and I remember him coming back, and I went to, to his meetings that he had. And I remember one of the words he used a lot in speaking to the young men, he'd say, "Go west, young man, go west." D: Did he want them to leave here? L: Wanted them to leave here and go to Indian Territory. D: Go to Indian territory. He thought there'd be, what did he think? L: He said they could make a better living there. And they'd be better recognized. D: Wonder why he didn't stay out there when he was tout there? L: Well, he had a family back here. D: Now, how did he go out to the Indian Territory, I guess he went to what's now Oklahoma? L: Yes. He went on the train. In the train, in fact, the people hoping, that were interested in the railroad, Indian people, they helped him. And he stayed out there about a year. D: What year did he die, do you recall? L: No, I don't, I don't remember what year the old man Wash died. D: Now, way back ~hen, lot's of the fellows that walked the I understand, from Penbroke. L: The old man Wash walked there and back in a day. D: Yeah, that's what I heard. L: He's the walkingest man I ever heard of. He had the old lady, S'AU) Catherine, say his wife,~ one morning he got up, and the old man Washcsaid, "Catherine, get me a JtA._&-." D: "Get me a what?" PAGE 7 LUM 206A 7 L: A jug. Smith, he was aquainted with, and that he thought of, and run a I'm going ---------to step up to Smith, and 9eJ. fl:I'.. c,-. scJlo,-, ,,.f /iJv,t!L And she said, whenever, that is at night, at night, and they'd meet ______ , and the next morning, the way the house was built, when the sun rose, the sun shines right into the kitchen. Just as the sun shines into the kitchen, Wash stepped up\to the door, had walked to and back tlj.at night. And S-f't11) , "You need breakfast?" Took his broadaxe and went on up the river, cut timber that day, he had to br0adaxe . a man, a terribly fJ1'-rr_'-.â€¢) Terrible with the D: So he walked to k_ --tm,-).J] that night, and returned, and went to the woods the next day with his broadaxe to work? L: That's right. D: Well, I would say that was quite a lot of work. Now, in the Thee. Saddle --&reek community, did the Lowry gang ever hang out down this way any? L: Well, I, yes, there's some down in here some. D: Do you recall .... L: Right across here there's an o~d.home, used to be a station right down there, and that's the old Ferdy Lowry home, he has a brother, D: What was his name? L: Ferdy. The old lady, the old man Ferdy Lowry. D: How did Saddle Creek get it's name, I've heard some stories about that. L: I don't know, that's one thing I don't know, it's had it for (}fl'J} J__ C'.,," I / rft -J 1 L /l Srfo'p uor ,t C C\_.J,'.fJ i. __;,"t'lb! r /(,'2 N:. ' (!)o, .... c.r I f-.t):: lv(I <. '7 /l<;:__(:(, r..J1(M n PAGE 8 LUM 206A 8 D: Well, someone told me that some soldiers came through once, and they cut a ,cut a tree, cut a saddle out of a tree, and they called it saddle tree. L: Well, I never did hear that. D: Well, you might have, the f(e,.j{"0 (:\, the registered deeds in Lumberton, was telling me that once. Did you attend school in your early days any? L: ,.-i~\ v"" Yes, I went to one school when I was six years old in January, and I, come in August I went to school. D: That was about 1886? L: Yes. D: Now, where did you attend school? L: Union Chapel. D: Union Chapel? Way back in 1886? L: Yes. We moved from there that year, and moved up above Bear Swamp to what was called Strickland Place. It belonged to f C>---l-fl--c... -that-. time. And during that year, this track of land here was put up for sale for a debt, and the old man f t3 , the old man / clP1.)L fr-Nr;,w Y 'r--.f, ----but he went down and somebody, his father-in-law, ,,.,s-h.lAc.)-"'J_ b,rt> if the land was going to be sold, then he might underbid, 205 dollars. And I pay much more than that on it for tax. D: Now, one interesting thing here you mention about the school, Union Chapel. Apparent~~y they had a little school out in Union Chapel before the normal, in 1887, when it was established there by W. L. Moore, is that right? L: D: I guess so, yeah. t/ \..._ ~"' If you were six years old and going out to Union Chapel\ then they had a little school there even before the normal of 1887. Do you PAGE 9 LUM 206A 9 recall who your teacher was? L: Johnson S4A\\1t-1& from Columbus County. D: I imagine he was some relation, do you know if he was related to W.L. Moore of Columbus County? L: Well, I don't know, but some of his kinfolk that I know, Lloyd s+~ I/,& married a girl that, it seems to M-e.., is a cousin, to ---your-father. D: You mean my grandfather? L; Yes. D: Yes, Preacher Moore, they called him. Well, now, Preacher Moore came here along in 1876i that was about four years before you were born, and, I wonder why, why did it happen that some of the early teachers came out of Columbus County. Do you have any explanation on that? Dt [<1"""-S('__ L: Well, Columbus County, they had the advantage of schools~' they didn't try to be Indians, they had better opportunities. They had better, they had some teachers, some good teachers, too. The old man Johnson ___ )~L~,:~~~1:~,~J~ 0 :__ _____ =====-===---D: Mr. Lowry, you seem to have acquired a right good education for back in your day, how did you get this, mostly on your own? L: Well, I went.to a little school, you know, and after I always would study books some, and after I married, my wife went, she had went 1,-.c! p to more school than I had ever went to, and she could~, she helped me some. This problem, she could help me solve, that I couldn't if I hadn't have had some help. D: Other than your farming, let's say when you were up about sixteen or seventeen, what was your life like around, do you remember the hard times? I know you remember them in 1896, the Depression, I believe, PAGE 10 LUM 206A 10 they said they had a hard depression around 1896, back when Grover ..... L: Grover Cleveland was President. I remember that mighttwell. It seemed to me like we've had a harder depression since then, than we did then. D: How would you compare the time before the turn of the century with the depression in the 1930's? L: Well, 1930 was about as bad a depression that I have any recollection of. I remember two, possibly two depressions, one depression before 1930. I remember one. D: Which one are you.referriftg to? L; It was in the 90's. D: Yes, around '96. L: Yeah. D: What was your diet like mostly in your young days? When you were a boy? L: Well, we grew corn a little, not much, not much farming 1+ wo1,U ~e.. We grew corn, and grew hogs, and sometimes kill a beef, the cattle out of the woods, -l-lc.1 , 0 ,,.Ll ()Mc.pretty good. There were ~'"')~ opportunities then that aren't now, ____________ people that didn't have, we didn't have no land of our own, I mean the old man didn't have none of his own, until they bought this. 'Course they was clothes, and --------he loved money. And he'd try to hold~ his money, and let his debts go. And his daughter got him in debt when he got old, he was eighty when he died. He was in bad circumstance, owed more money than the land would have put up and sold. D: What is your idea on the origin of the Indian people, the Lumbee people of Robertson County? PAGE 11 LUM 206A 11 L: Well, I've heard this theory. You know, the Lawry's, and _____ , John Lowry, he was the chief, and the tribe did, residing in Roanoke, Virginia, and there was another man by the name of Will, Lazy Will we called him, he was a sub-chief, he was under John Lowry, so I don't know, I ain't got no way of telling how they found out about a place in South c/rolina. But they did it annually, fish and hunt, it was good hunting ground, good fishing ground, and they'd go and come and they made a trail, it was called the Lowry Trai! as a result of the tribe's leader was John Lowry. And finally, I believe ,~ it was in '65, I don't; better not try to think about it when he comes, a group here, I used to remember their name, Bron .... Oh, I can't think of his name now, the man who headed the A 1'1.Y';\.-/ he'd come here to &.a.0G-(:, the Indians. And in that effort, they made a road out in the trail that they called the Lowry Trail, and y._Y ,\\..V they changed the name from''Lowry Trail to Lowry Road, so he still carries a little bit of And just think about the Lowry Road, some people that sold them out know what it meant, to D: Did you ever hear any, someone said there used to drive turkeys and chickens to market, was that true? L: Turkeys and ducks, um humm. Yeah, the old man raised me, and drove 7 turkeys and geese, and _____ _ different times, t? ~101:,(l_,~~':,~-.,, '. D: What would you do at night with them? L: They had some way of taking care of them. D: I guess they'd stop and let them roost in the trees. L: No, they didn't, not .... D: I've heard people talk about, said the old people drove turkeys to the market, chickens, I guess so to the market, I noticed some of PAGE 12 LUM 206A 12. the roads ;,they ca11-/ 'one road they call the Chicken Road. L: Yeah, that was the road f~~~~~~:..._:c~n~o~s~s~ts;!.......;:::::::::::::==::...._it~.:::..::~william's Bridge. People have come through some hard, some hard places. about them. they survived some way. D: Mr. Lowry, back I remember, for way back several years, you've been active in what I call a Church Community SingJ/i,, and establishng choirs in the various communities and so forth. As a matter of fact, you went up to Prospect once. When did you first go up there, would you tell us about that? L: 1922. I don't remember what month it was in, but it was 1922. D: Did someone contact you to go up there? L: Yes, sirj, Mr. Luther Moore. D: Tell us about it, and what did you do when you got there, and all? L: Well, we had, I picked it up some way or another, I got ahold of it so I could sing the scale, and made the sound, and etcc~~ATc~Y D: You knew the notes, didn't you? L: I.learned the notes,oh yeah, you have to know them, you have to know them by sound. And I learned the notes and I taught classes all over the country, a lot of times I would have two classes going, I'd meet one class Sunday morning, and meet another class in the afternoon. Go to conventioni and GlOIP-S ___.:=,-_-""_~:::.,_-=----=--D: It seems like here lately that the singing conventions are coming back into style again. I've been attending some recently. L: Yeah. And you go buy the instument. D: Well, I just go to hear them sing,Jcourse they probably, they learn a different way now, but, and they do have instuments and so forth. Now, when you started way back, did you have a piano, or organ or PAGE 13 LUM 206A 13 anything? You didn't have anything? L: No. I learned the sounds, and after learning the 1 sounds, learned the time, the two vital points in vocal music are the sounds and ,ii!,~ i the time. Important,~ important, the singers to know the notes, to know the rudiments of music. It's one thing, the people that lived~like I did, there is nothing hardly that you could have brought about that I'd have enjoyed better than I did \,c),tNJN ft, that group of youri.g ,people that is well trained, and had their sounds and time well, and it blended together, if it makes a cf) sweet sound and that sweet sound is enjoyed by . D: What, we've had various theories to what happened to Henry Bear Lowry, and of course, I know no one seems to know, but what do you think happened, do you think he went away, or do you think he died? L: My, from what I hear is, from what people told me, I never believed he lived. That's my theory. Lowry said one time, he was down in Florida to work, the he said there was a man there that had boasted He said that man, he noticed, ' watched him a lot. Said he looked like he was interesting to the man, he didn't say nothing, but he just stand there and watch him. Look at him a lot. Said one day, he asked him, "Is your name Lowry?" Said he told him yes. "Where are you from?" He told him North Carolina. "What part of North Carolina?" And he told him Robertson County. And, so he said he asked him a whole lot of questions about the Indians, the Lawry's in Robertson County, about how they were getting along, said he asked him so many questions after you studied about it, hecome to the conclusion he was interested ~" some way, some how, to the LowryJs. Eventually, he said he come PAGE 14 -----------------------------------------------LUM 206A 14 home, and he said he had decided he believed that was Henry Bear Lowry, and they had always feared that Daniel Berry, and one of the Brooks men, lived there in HA{l,r~n<, fe,"il-lt-'1. SGc,1o11 , why, I can't think ,of that name right now, but anyway, Aaron ~\1:.rrn'J 6.:-.qR'.._ seemed to be special friends. So Hubbard said he went to see, you wanted to find out if he still had his picture, yes, he carried it, she had his picture. Said she went in the trunk and brought it out, and they said it was the very picture. D: Who had the picture? L: Well, I'm, my mind ain't active like it used to be. She says Lucianne's got a picture of him. D: L: D: How old is Miss Lucianne? She's in her sixties. Mr. Lowry, John Dial, he lived near the Saddle~ community and was one of the Lowry gang. Will you tell Mrs. Story of what little you have heard, and know about John Dial? L: I know very little about the old man John, in connection with the outlaws. He talked to me some, md told me things, and he was _\('.--o-'x' along the night Sheriff King was killed. And was accused of killing Sheriff King. When he was on. his deathbed, he told people he always accused of killing Sheriff King, but there was a colored man along, and they said that he was the man that fired the gun that killed, that's what John said. D: Yes, the colored man was Shoemaker John, I believe his name was. And of course, you're right, there, John, they did claim him, turn him state evidence, and say he stayed in jail, what was the story about him returning after he got out? PAGE 15 LUM 206A 15 L: Who? D: John, you said, you told me a while ago, he stayed in jail awhile, afraid to return, because of the state evidence that he turned in on the fellows. L: Yeah, he turned in evidence that, they called it state evidence, he bought him a home, joining my land, right down below ~hat station down there is owned, that little tract of land. He lived there alone till he died. Course, he give it to the family down the road, it was his oldest friend, Smith, that -------stayed with him, and they looked after him, and they got his )~ property. Yeah, that's right ___ '__ ['i_~_,_,l_~_ 1 ]_,_ _________ _ D: You say he was so weak, he had to carry a parasol, an umbrella? Why? 'D:11'?} O( __.;;;.. __ _:c;:,....__............, _______ _ I guess when he returned, the Lowrys had disappeared, or whatever had happened to Henry Bear Lowry had happened. In other words, Henry Bear Lowry was never seen any more around here after 1872? And the last of the Lowrys died in 1874? Do you remember any .~ incidents, did he tell you anything other than,Sheriff King business? Did you ever hear anything else about it? L: Well, he'd talk things, speak things. He said one time he felt like if he ever saw a true prophet, Henry Bear was one. He said he had a way, when he was~studying to do something, had a way of sitting down and lock his hands, like that, said he'd get off to himself, over there somewhere, speaking to him, and he said, whenever he got through, said, "Boys, put on your arms, let's go do something to them." Said they never knew him to fail. Said the night they killed Sheriff PAGE 16 LUM 206A 16 King, they were way up on And he said, he said to them, "Let's go kill cr-l ,,,,, ;,. _., ,'' 11 ':', , let's go +-----,--,.,.....,...~----kill Sheriff King." They went and got the boat, got on the boat, I d , k h t.. â€¢'t t.. :'!ls o.e,, :,,~ Pr,r.te I Ft)(,: y way up there, on t now. w etuer t,n::or on this ------side, or just what, but it is somewhere between from Harper City down to 7>-) '/L.Df PAGE 17 LUM 206A 17 be your opinion? L: Well, I expect it ought to, because the Lowrys, I like the thought f1'c.-, 11e., of what ;w:.e'.-1-re called. That gang, they constituted, set the laws of Robertson County. Andevery-word they said, was law. And anyway, they were going to, were planning to make havoc for the Indian people, I'm being told, and when Henry Bear got outlawed, why, of course, he, being so skillful, and he tore up their ptans, he had the white man saying, he said, that was one time the white people planned a thing and got whipped in their own plan. It's said that Henry Bear killed about twenty-six men himself. I don't know. That's a bunch of people for one man to kill. D: I imagine a lot of things that were done that was accused on the Lowry gang that they didn't do. L: That's right, I imagine, I've heard that spoke of many times, and I've heard the old man John say it, that the Lowry's weren't guilty of everything that they were accused of. They were accused of going to L1.A,,.,J?e,d 0 ,J and taking the safe out of the McCloud store. I know you've heard it. They might have, some of them had a little "'~" PAGE 18 LUM 206A 18 how in th6 world could them, could some of the gang get the key to open the door, know where to go to get the bridle they put on , o;J lv r ., .. :t h 1.,1 l ,,,.;1-, t e drey horse that pulled the stage, and it was broke 1w1 """ oo'J.,., ' 'drey, and broke down on side that they Mill, and --take it down the side of the Lumber River, and there's where they cut it open and got the money. D: What spot was that on Lumber River? ? L: It was right near the VctLY\C\"-' 1 old Mill. D: The D Mill, where they cut open the safe. L: Right near it. D: Did you ever hear how much money was in that safe? L: No, I hadn't. I imagine it was right smart. D: Do OU recall anything else that Mr. Dial said that they Lowry gang was accused of, that they were not neccesarily involved in? L: Not particularly, I couldn't, exactly tell, nothing like that, that I can remember now, it's been a good while. Naturally, you know, time has an effect on things. D: Yes. But I think you're right there in saying that the Lowry gang was perhaps accused of many things that they did not do. I'm still looking for that first Indian who didn't have a great deal of respect for the Lowry's, it seems like one hundred percent respect for the Lowry gang, and, of course, I too have a great deal of respect for them, too. L: Well, my mother and Henry Bear was first cousins. So I'm a little kin to him, I reckon. D: Yes, your mother and Henry Bear were first cousins. What was your mother's father's name? L: Alfred. PAGE 19 LUM 206A D: Alfred, um hmm. L: That was "1\.._ 'or.â€¢J>'.-t..P-~ , Alfred and Allen was brothers. D: Alfred Lowry and Allen Lowry was brothers, and Alfred was your mother's father. So that puts you some kin to the Lowry gang yourself. L: D: L: D: L: D: Yes. Mr. Lowry, what kin was your wife to Henry Bear Lowry? Henry Bear was her uncle. What was your wife's father's name? Patrick 0 "-\ 1 '-â€¢ 1 u'O Preacher Patrick }...,_\"' ____ , . Yes, and Mr. Patrick was a brother of Henry Bear. 19 L: Yes. And he was considered the leading, one of the leading preachers of his day. D: Mr. Patrick, where did he live? L: You know where down Bucky was his place is there? That was his, that D: And down on Bucky farm was the Patrick Lowry Farm, and that joined the Wash Lowry place, didn't it? L: No. D: No? Well, the Lloyd law, I mean the the Taylor Lloyd place today, wasn't that where, somewhere around there? L: That's the Wash Lowry land. D: That's the Wash Lowry land? Well, it's not very far from the, from the, yeah, about a mile from the other land there, the Patrick Lowry, um hum, and the Wash Lowry. Let's see, what kin was Wash Lowry and Patrick Lowry? 1: Well, I kHc.~ /\lo L -\ l'L '\ fu SA'/ D: Mr. Lowry, did you ever do any hunting, fox hunting or any kind of PAGE 20 LUM 206A 20 hunting? L: I did everything that walked thereabout. Possum, squirrel, rabbit, X: coon, possum, mink, 1 ............ __ fox,, , , foxes by the year, and c v\JV t . ..._ finally got into deer hunting some. I've killed two or three deer. I got a lot of kick out of it, I never got to go this last winter, I ..... L: Oh, Lord, I couldn't hardly tell him. I left here one morning before day, never eat nothing, I'd thought I'd be back before twelve o'clock, and I told my dog to wait yonder between Lumber Bridge and rr:1nh:'-)11rv l~ , and heading sunset, I caught them, D: L: D: and caught them, and I had to walk from above Lumber ~-\Bridge home, and I hadn't ate, a mouthful all day long. How far is Lumber Bridge from here? About eighteen miles. Coi-? And were they still running that~ L: Yes. I had to run in my old age till I told him. D: Now was this a grey fox, or a red fox? L: Grey. D: A grey fox, will he run farther than a red fox? L: No, that red fox is the largest fox, and is a tough fellow, he's a tough being. He takes you a ride. KnQw what I used to call it? D: Well, this long trip was quite unusual for a grey fox that day, wasn't it? L: I don't know, anything called a fox can get about. Yes sir. D: Did you do much coon hunting? L: When I was a right young boy, about seventeen year old, I got hold of a hound dog, a fine blooded dog, and I trained him, I, PAGE 21 LUM 206A 21 it was no trouble to train him. And I caught fifty-five coons in Saddle Tree in one winter, we did. D: Fifty-five with one dog? L: With one dog. D: Fifty.-five coons in one winter with one dog, that's good hunting. I suppose you'd hunt pretty well all night, and work the next day? L: Well, I hunted more of the morning. I'd go to the swamp where I knowed the coons were, about daybreak, that's the time they are going to their den. That's the way I wanted to handle them. D: Now, your ninety .... L: If I cut him down, he's in his den, he'll stay in there. And when he comes out, and you cut to him and run him out, the dog could catch him. D: So that's the advantage of going early in the morning? Now, how many years has it been since you quit coon hunting? L: Oh, I expect twenty-five or thirty. D: Have you done any hunting at all in recent years? \.,__,.,.A-,,.r. L: Deer is my last hunting. D: When did you quit deer hunting? L: I never went this last winter that I wanted. D: Did you go two years ago? L: Yes. D: So you were deer hunting at age eighty-eight? L: Yes. D: Did you kill a deer two years ago? L: No, I don't believe, I ain't going to say. D: Now, back to your young days. Did any of the boys sell any fur? L: Yes, that's what I hunted for, was the fur. PAGE 22 LUM 206A 22 D: This was a little different from the old Indian tradition of get what you needed and stop, wasn't it? L: Well, that is a good, a pretty good thing. With reference to D: game, there's no use in destroying the game if you don't need it. Now, if it's a sport, let's fD1iukclJ{t, I S nyv-{ I Do you believe in, more or less, in people hunting and taking what they need, and all lines open to anybody who wants to hunt them? L: Well, have to-be intelligiently about it. D: Mr. Lowry, I've heard my mother, and many other peoples speak of ghosts back in their young days. And of course, there's some ? very interesting stories on ghosts and nntcNS and so forth, I would you care to relate one or two stories along this line? L: Well, there's a fDQl down here, crossing place to cross \Jl"-L Saddle --re-e.k, cal led R ynorJ Ford. There was a man killed at the other end of the dam, by the name of John Kale, I believe, :fo \,tJ he was a tailor, w""~~",:.w,_\.\\,JA':, :youn.g or not, but years after that, people said it the same. Well, I always, didn't think much of it, I was a:t C,..LILl'~'i, vl'flswamp one night, and started home, I was coming home, got down to the footway, and we walked ..{:o~ /o 1 it~+ 1.Jtls Ji nA,,l .rwf e1~ long leafed pine trees, long leafed ~,u,vti' , and they was one lying on the ground, and I got up on the footway that I walked across on, that was up on the. creek-tofill it up, theeg. I saw something that was lying, I thought it was a man lying on the footway down there. I went on by the thing, and it run on to the other end, the way I come from, and it got on the log I was on, and come up behind me, and we had a battle there, I don't know what. I'm never knowing what that was. PAGE 23 LUM 206A 23 D: That is very interesting. L: It never :,bit me, it was in the dark, I coulili1't, and it was D: L: X: all over so quick. Do you believe in before people die? Well, I, expect I do a little. L: I believe that was witchcraft, some type of witchcraft. I had a man here helping me dig the stumps, and he come to dinner, he'd eat dinner with me. We, my wife would put the dinner on the table, and he would go ahead out, getting the children taken ,-l fl, care of, and I'd eat later. Well, we had eat\.n.g,Aritting there talking, and she got ready to eat, and directly she picked up \;,0,.,\\ a b-ewl of hread, about that size there, just as round a pretty, and it was cornbread, fresh cooked, and it was throwed in my, in * her pla~e. She picked it up, says, "Which of you boys throwed that in my plasfe?" I said it weren't me. The other man said, "Why, why, it weren't me. II She said, "You ain't telling the truth, it was one of you. II I affirmed it wasn't me, I knowed '$$1A \ '? it wasn't me, and I knowed it wasn't William Dowl. It was neither one of us that could have made a little piece of bread that was fresh-cooked, you could tell it was fresh-cooked, could have /. p.f-' ot' made it that round, and trim, if it had been made with machinery~ Well, we sat down and talked about it, and that day, two weeks, this other man weren't there. The same thing happened again. I had a rifle, a new rifle, I grabbed that rifle, and I run out and looked under the house, and everywhere that I could, I thought, until I don't know what it did to me, but I knowed ':I. f_,,'< ,.,,f'cc) \r \ 1 :,,,,_(, something strang~but it never did happen no more that it was for me to

PAGE 24

LUM 206A 24 know it, them two times was, that, I asked, I went to I now b"""-c-.one time with Ruby Oxenbang. 0 You kn~ Ruby. Me and Rubyrs cousins. Her mother and me was first cousins. And she went in and talked to a man, and she come out and said, "So and so said for you to go in there, wanted to talk to you." I went in there, he told me a whole lot of things,.and I asked him about this matter, that I just told you of, said that was, oh, I can't think of what he told me, but he said that if I knew the sixth and seventh book of Moses, I could do the same thing. D: Was he speaking of witchcraft? L: Yes. Said I could do the same thing. D: I'll have to read the sixth and seventh book of Moses to see what it says about witchcraft. Now, one other question I wanted to ask before we run out of our tape here, do you think race relations have improved a lot over the years among the people L: (END OF SIDE ONE)

PAGE 25

LUM 206A Side 2 L: I know it has, and the Indian people has got more respect for themtelves that\\, they had seventy-five years ago. Yes, sir, I know. D: Why has this improvement come about? L: How? D: Why has it come about? 25 L: Well, it was necessary, and as time goes on, and they experience taught them mighty good lessons, you know, experience teaches the perfect lesson. And this teaching, and their realizing what needed to be done things, didn't do way behind yonder when we -J-'~1rJk ain't got no use for it. And I~ that there's right much improvement. D: Well, thank you, Mr. Lowry, and .... D: We're signing off now, this is July the 20th, 1970, signing off Tii,e-ethe interview with Mr. Lloyd Lowry, of the Saddle Creek community. (END OF TAPE)