Citation
Interview with Mr. and Mrs. Lawrence Locklear, April 26, 1974

Material Information

Title:
Interview with Mr. and Mrs. Lawrence Locklear, April 26, 1974
Creator:
Locklear, Lawrence ( Interviewee )
Mrs. Locklear, Lawrence ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:
Language:
English

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Florida History ( local )
Lumbee Oral History Collection ( local )
Spatial Coverage:
Lumbee County (Fla.)

Notes

Funding:
This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

Record Information

Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management:
Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/.
Resource Identifier:
LUM 184 ( SPOHP IDENTIFIER )

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Full Text
LUM-184A Transcribed: --/ -5-'
April 26, 1974 K. Johnson
INTERVIEWER: Lew Barton
INTERVIEWEE: Lawrence and Pinkie Locklear
B: This is April 26, 1974. I'm Lew Barton, recording for the University of Florida
History Department Oral History program. This afternoon...could you tell, us
ma'am, just about where we are right now? Where in Robeson County we are right
now?
Mrs.: You are on Red Bank.
B: We are in the Red Banks area of North Carolina, that's about four miles from
Mrs.: here to Pembroke?
Mrs.: Yeah.
B: And this is the part of the Indian community that's almost solidly Indian, isn't
it?
Mrs.: 4sh yeah.
B: How far would you have to go to find a white family or a black family?
Mrs.: Well, let's see now. I don't know, it's a good piece from here.
Mr.: I tell you about how far you'd have to go. You'd have to go about five mile
from here to find a black family.
B: The gentleman over there says you'd have to go about five miles to find a black
family. And how about a white family?
Mrs.: Well, we've got white people mixed all up with our people. You would not have
to go far to find them mixed.
B: Well, I just wanted to know as a matter of checking out the Indian commune ty itself.
Would you mind telling us what's your name?
Mrs.: Pinkie Locklear.
B: And who was your husband?
Mrs.: Lawrence Locklear.
B: And you're a widow?
Mrs. No, he's living.


LUM-184A
page 2
B: Where is he today?
MRs.: He's sitting over there in that chair.
B: Is that right? I can't...my vision is so poor...I sound stupid...thac's the
reason of it, I guess. We wanted to talk to you a little bit. How old are
you getting to be now? Could I ask a lady her age?
Mrs.: Yeah. I was born in 1906.
B: 1906.
Mrs.: Yeah, April 15. How old is that?
B: That's going pretty good.
Mr.: Above sixty.
Mrs.: I'm about sixty-seven.
B: You're doing alright. You're still going strong.
Mrs.: Yeah, I do, but I've got my hips and Vt e y si(X but I'm going p Q
CotUAd;a4 rwlA c at my age.
B: Did you all have any children?
Mrs.: No, I raised a daughter.
B: You have an adopted daughter? What was her name?
Mrs.: No, I never adopted her. I just went dowsn to Lumberton and she was give to me.
B: Well, she was adopted as far as you were concerned.
Urs.: I brought her home and raised her,, yeah.
B: And that's what matters. What was her name?
Mrs.: Addie Pearl.
B: And you lived in the Robeson County area all your life?
4rs.: All my life. I've never been out of Robeson County.
B: Is that right? Well what do you think about the progress we're making now
among the Indians? Do you think we're getting along pretty good?
Mrs.: No.


LUM-184A
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B: You don't?
Mrs.: No, if you could get these people together you could do something.
B: It's hard to get us together, isn't it?
Mrs.: They ain't got the business S >S .
B: You know something? I told some people one time that James Cole was the only
person who ever really organized our people...
Mrs.: He done a good job.
B: Although we organized against him, or united against him, it seems, it was
almost a hundred percent, I guess.
Mrs.: If you could get these people, if our people would get together and let them
all be truthful and quit telling lies...
B: Is that what they do?
Irs.: Yes, they tell lies...if you could get them together, like you take the ones
that went down here to buy that recreation place, if he had come through this
country and said "I'm going to buy these from the Indians and let everybody,
every Indian family in North Carolina paid five dollars down on it, one time,
and then come back in the fall, said, I'd like to have five dollars out of every
Indian family in North Carolina, we'd own it. But how could we own it, only
the head people are the meanest people you ever see.
B: They are.
rs.: They is, it's the head leaders. If they get a little something they don't respect
poor people.
B: They look out for the high-faluters, is that r ht?
Mrs,: Right. //f I S / r ecu" talk about one another. Ain't no sense
in that. If you ain't, if your word ain't no good, you're no good.
-B: Right. Well, I haven't checked on the Lumbee Recreation Center lately, but...
Mrs.: There's nothing to it.


LUM-184A
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B: Do many peol go out there?
i Tho aCreA 0 Xo
Mrs.: -is eIewdtbla go out there ..
B: erw ht go out there at?C/ 7
Mrs.: Xon &O&@e CtAete 6t/I0 0 %4 i
B: What is that? C U A I A
Mrs.: Drinking, stealing, carrying on, and everything If we could
get together with our people, we might get somewhere, but like it is, it's
bad news.
B: Could I ask you a personal question?
Mrs.: Yeah, anything you want.
B: Are you a Lumbee or a Tuscarora?
Mrs.: Well, I tell you the truth. I don't know what I am.
B: But you do know you're an Indian, right?
Mrs.: I do know I've been in the Indian race all my life. I'm not a nigger and I
ain't a white man.
B: Well, that's a good answer, straightforward and direct. C L ZS J
MIrs. I don't...
B: I believe you're a pretty straightforward girl, anyway.
Mrs.: No one has to come and tell me I'm a nigger, I don't believe that. And no one
need to come and tell me I'm a white woman. I don't believe that. So, I've
got to have Indian in me somewhere.
B: If we're not Indians, then we've sure suffered as Indians all our life, haven't we?
rs.: Yeah, all our life we've been...
B: And we've been treated like Indians all our lives, and our foreparents before.
Mrs.: That's right.
B: So for all practical purposes, that's true. What do you think of the school
situation? I'm thinking you're kind of a segragationmEist. Are you?


LUM-184A
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Mrs.; No, I ain't no segregationalist. I believe if we can... OU i O)a .?
B: I want you to tell me what you think, and what you believe.
Mrs.: I believe--here's what I believe. I believe women ought to be at home, some
of them, with their children, a-raising them.
B: Instead of working?
Mrs.: Instead of being on the road from 8 o'clock this morning until 4 o'clock this
evening, don't know where their'children is.
B: Do you think our women do that these days?
Mrs.: Ever one of them v\ho Cfn.\Vh'O don't want to raise their children, they're
so lazy.
B: A lot of our women are working in the factories nowl PrV oMJ.
Mrs.: They need to be at home...that's the reason there's so many naked people in
Robeson County, on account of the women.
B: You don't mean streaking, do you?
Mrs.: Streak--they've got to streak. They're naked before the streaking came along.
B: t ink you're using a figure of speech. You mean, they need clothing, right?
Mss.: They need clothes on...the children don't know n_7_ ______ awasc--they
been streaking ever since they was born. Don't you-- C (*'rA
sitting up here Ct f C 3 up to my Z C fAr <r There
ain't no sense in that.
B: You don't...I take it you don't believe in these mini-skirts and micro-mini skirts?
Mrs.: I don't believe in people going naked.
B: Do you call that going naked?
Irs.: Jesus intended us in the beginning to not show our sins, ji4 C i jir 4The
scho& hose and evermore elsehh^ alp An ,^aerd Le e ro^et. they
- h 0 I<> e-^ On Oc odl 0 es
B: I taiAed to a girl this morning she was just nineteen. She's been married and
she's a lovely Indian girl. She said she'd never worn a mini-skirt in her life,


LUM-184A
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B: and I think this is a relative of yours, or she's married a family close to you,
Mr.: Yeah, that's the one.
B: I just interviewed her a while ago, Peggy.
Nrs.: ke\ r shars are A sh v 5 bue 6kd 8 kerv
B 9 Mr.: /
B: Uh huh, she's Gli' rv\C. one.
Mrs.: Don't you put this in the paper.
B: No, I'm not. What do you think we ought to do about all our problems? Is there
anything we can do about getting together? :F
Mrs.: Yeah, it's like I told you, though, it's like I...you know C Church
over here is tore up.
B: Is it split up too?
Mrs.: You bet. And I told them, there's one remedy for that church.
B: What's that? t, /
Mrs.: There's, let me seeA three deacons,(Holden?) (Golden?) Locklear, Curtis Locklear, and
Jake Locklear. They're getting old, then, Indians all of their life. Well,
they sent a conference over there, ___k__ conference, and them men wouldn't
go to it, and they when they wouldn't do it the young men picked them a deacon.
I said if they'd a been Christian and loved one another, whenever they'd a went
back there and decided"v_ Ulna they wouldn't have got over there and
went hunting somebody tp listen Over -V Lu r^b frta k .d t4 ffi
5 p <2& th' e cS eCu no iAk Ave S& 1.nd
y'f ~ '41.M .s.Tese old men It young men___ i el
B: Well it's sad...when the church is split up then the rest of the people are...
Mrs.: Out of business.
B: Well, I thoughtvwe were making some progress in that direction.
Mrs.: Well, we're not.


LUM-184A
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B: Is that right?
Mrs.: No, you ain't. There's no progress in Robeson County. The people don't want you
to u^C,~ La f they ain't got time to stop to talk with you.
B: And I take it if they talk...
Mr.: i o/ust {17Cc 1^s, f erry j church people c441,#A 4 je Y
ck- AJ~ f / you can't do that.
B: And the gentleman says if we can't get our own selves together how in the world
can we get the whole world together?
Mrs.: Well you ainht going to get them together. They're going to stick right here and
0S et S / i tlCk C. There are two ways you can get those to work. Them
that caR Vw2kt,,,
B: You mean, starve to deathb?
Mrs. : Starve to death, their own selves'. f nt/nclectr:
B: Mave you ever seen worse days than these?
Mrs,: Nope, 'ye. never een, no ad days 7t4
%a _n dayo we thought At was, bad but ,,
Mrs.: It wasn't ass had as ft Ai now, It atn't as bad as it was now. In those days the
people cooked and eat everything they could get their hands on.
B; They usually Fagsed their own food, too, didn't they?
M Yeah, and now they're too lazy to raise their food, and if // S/ f ^ Y
no one wants T/O Jv^? 4*/k4 H k.
B: Is that right?
Mrs.: Nobody don't want to.
B; I'2ll bet you do th4.s, well know you do some of that good old Indian cooking,
Indian good good,
MNrs,: That's' the only. wy to cook, cook a food.
IB: Indian women are cooks, I'm telling you when you sit down to a table that they


LUM-184A
page 8
B: prepare, you got soeatOing, Of course, I might be a little bit prejudiced in their
favor, you know.
Mrs.: Yeah, but let me tell you one thing--I love cooking.
B: Do you love to cook and carry food to the cookouts at church, church socials?
Mrs.: Well, no, I've Aever Been much for that but I love cooking. But not to say that
I don't appreciate Jt for the people, now, we're not got no love in the country
now. People don't love one another like they used.-40.
B: We don't have as much as we used to have, it seems.
Mrs.: If you ainht gtm /:^Il' f th f M11 you're a nobody.
B: I thought you told me a while ago they were getting out of everything they could
instead of getting in to it.
Mrs.: Well they're getting in everything they can and out of it, you call it any way you
want to call it.
B: Oh me, I always enjoy talking with you because you always say what you, tell me the
way you gee G and thhat the way it ought to be.
Mr.,: Why sure, There ain't no use to telling a story Ct U Ce ticarj
B: What do you think of the school situation?
Mrs,: i believe the schaols are going to run out to be pure nothing. I believe they'll
run out. In late years I don't believe you'll have any school.
B: Do you think the Tuscaroras and the Lumbees will ever get together?
Mrs. No. The Tuscaroras are old foolish people U 10ne -one eir eei'
o JX you Ujffy'~ ,u^2ving that meeting up here at this...that place and it got burnt
^ down ? Up here Pw 4 rna ( I've got to go and see what they're
doing, is the only reason I did go to one. I didn't know I could...
B: Jou just*wanted to see what was going on, didn't you?
Mr .: Yeah, I went over to that and Lawrence took me and I come back.
nd andhey're -trying
; .,' 1C- C ) and a _e__- and they're trying to


LUM-184A
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Mis.: argue that I've never done enough, and s C___
B: You didn't get Interested in all that testifying?
Mrs.: There was nothing to get interested in.
B: Is that right?
Mrs.: No.
B: You were..,wen't you Born somewhere around in the Prospect area?
Mrs: I don't remember, D believe they said was born over here on the Plummer place.
They jV across this one ridge on the Fletcher place, and then they
said I was Born over there on the Plummer place.
B: Have you Ween, It W j~ all your life?
Mrs.: Yeah, B 11 M '& g U ll of my life, right in Robeson County.
B: And when you leave you're going to leave here, right?
Mrs.: No, Ill be 'bured iA Robeson County.
B: Not a thing wrong with this girl, Enoch. This church dispute, I guess that's kind
of treading where angels fear to tread. I guess I better not go into that. Though
it is true that we do sometimes have split in the churches, isn't it?
t st; Well, ts whAt you'ea calling it. When Jesus sought out his disciples and told
them to go from house to house and speak his gospel without v fni, he never
put a price on it, te...it's a free gift, you ain't got to charge for preaching.
B: Well the preacher has to eat too you know.
Mrs.: And the preachers now got so much money. You're right about that. When Jesus
sent his disciples out to preach he told them to go from house to house and preach
My gospel through the Spirit and the Holy Ghost. You'll never name no other.
Don't youLW it, but you can come in and see me. I'll feed you and you'll
not get a word of a sermon. Because Jesus says He puts it in the heart. It's
very simple.
B: In other words, what you're saying, if the people feeds his congregation spiritually,


LUM-184A
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B: they'll feed him physically.
Mrs.: That's right.
B: But if he falls down, then what happens?
Mrs.: Well,they're feeding more than he can eat, now. He can't use it all.
B: Well he must be feeding them pretty good now.
Mrs.: Well they can see tt the way they want it, that he gives them just what they want.
If there ain't money in it, they don't want to go to that church, and if you ain't
got all...if you ain't dressed up nowhere, you ain't counted, and so I said get
out from among them.
B: If you were talking ao0ut this, where we're sitting right now, what would you call
this right here, where we're sitting out in the open?
Mrs.: A porch.
B: What would your parents have called it? Did you ever hear it called...
Mr.;: A _C_^ C__C___.
B: That's what I wanted you to say. I'm not supposed to guide you but I did. want
you to point out that some of these, some of the words that we use in the Prospect
area, back over here in good old Prospect.
Mrs.: And if you wants _j__ _t_ *_ i_ 1 .
MR..: Called what?
Mr .: Commissary.
B: This is a.,.a store is a commissary, right?
Mr.: T.iaa',s rat all the old people call it.
Mrs.: Let's go in the commissary a few minutes.
M.: Thai-' what'all the old people call it.
Mr.: She and wanted to go in the commissary.
B: If I were putting a picture up on the wall and I said to you, "How about holding
this picture bOTSUP^ for me?" How would you hold it?


LUM-184A
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Mrs.: Upside down?
B: No, I believe you missed out on one there. How about if I'd say, "You got it
catawhompus.t" ?
Mrs.; I wouldn't say nothing that I'd tell you, that thing I 0O 4 ^ >
Catawhompusl Wty don't you straighten it out?
B: Uh huh. Well now ._^ t__ tis supposed to be the opposite of catawhompus.
Catawhompus--I don't know how you spell that. I guess c-a-t-t-a-w-h-o-m-p-u-d-s,
and barsumi probably B-a-s-u-m. If I asked you where the C
was, would you know?
B: If we asked somebody else outside our own community where the resCO /1
was, they probably, wouldn't know, would they?
Mrs.: No. rP C t t
B: They don't know all of our words.
Mrs.: We always called tile freCOtt At this place over here across the railroad.
B: Uh huh. It's a swampy bottom land.
Mrs.: No, it's kind of low land and we stayed on the other side of the Pr_, o l n ,
and Uncle Steven stayed on his side of the r ) JP-L We stayed on the
other side of the railroad from here, and they stayed on this side, and we alwyas,
when we was getting ready to go down to Uncle Steve's we say, "Let's go across
the __6_C____ ___ to Uncle Steve's and Aunt ,.j Ai 4S ."
the p ge co Ee eC.vl su
B: Your brother and r were talking about B ioJon--es Bay. Do you know...a while ago...
we don't know why they called it hrsermE s Bay. Do you? Have you ever heard?
Mrs.: No.
B: I don't even know how to spell It.
Mrs.: But it's always been called e'aagitB Bay, ain't it?
B: We do have some words, quite a few words, that aren't used anywhere else except
among us. If they're not Ifdian words, they're surely Lumbee Indian words. Wouldn't


LUM-184A
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B: you say so? Do you think some of our younger people sort of have two languages?
They sort of put on a propeT language when company comes around and when we get
] I CSr lrWi
among ourselves we let our sort of.
Mrs.: Some of them choose to talk,..
B: And we tfak Prospect don't we?
Mrs.: Some of them chose to talk proper and they don't know how.
B: There ain't no proper way but our way, is there?
Mrs.: Our way is the only way, the right way. It ain't no good of me a putting on airs,
and trying to be what I ain't. When you go-to try to be that, you is nobody. Be
yourself, regardless to where you is, be yourself.
B: And be proud of what you are.
Mrs.: Exactly. I'm proud of what I am and who I am.
B: You think of yourself as an Indian, I know.
Mrs.: Yes, and I never got to think of nothing else but that. I'm not nigger, and I
Cr-ot-e +n
ain't white, and I ain't 4Sbaye .an, I'm a Indian, a Cherokee Indian, that's all
I'd sign up for if I had to sign.
B: Uh huh, And you believe in the Cherokee?
Mr.: Yeah. We It# t old /e settled through here, you know as well as
you're sitting here an Indian.
B: We got, yeah, I know we've got the Cherokees, I wouldn't argue that with you at
all, I know we got the Cherokee blood.
Mrs.: You know as well as you're sitting in this house a living that we're not white
people.
B: True.
Mrq.: We're not niggers,
B: We're not Negroes, that's true.
Mrs.: Well, you know we couldn't be Africans, we've got to be Indian people, there ain't


LUM-184A
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Mis.: nothing else but Indian,
B: I've always been told all my life that's what I was.
Mrs.: Well that's what we is. Were mixed people...we can't help that, but that still
don't make us neither one iOrIfer5 f Indian. Well what we is is Cherokee Indian.
We ought to have that, tiey\ ought to give us our land. But they ain't going to
give you nothing.
B: I'm afraid not,
Mrls.: I know.
B: But now we have other people, there were other groups, too, that settled in the
yzlaey. eq JaJld CheaQkees who settled here and you can go back to the records
and Governor Angus McClain, he wrote a history of our people way back in 1914 and
this was -h"s contention. But we also have these other groups too. We have other
groups of Indians that settled in the valley here. But the way I look at it, an*
Indian is an Indian.
Mrs.: That's right. They were one nation.
B: That's right. I've traveled pretty extensively...
M I, iThkey traveled and got their names of their families.
B: I've emet as many as 130 groups of American Indians and they all act and look like
I did in a sense, though r might have been a little bit brighter than them. I'm
like you, I C, d (4* 1
Mr .: That's right. We're all Indians, we're a nation.
B: Some of them were too,
Mrs.: We come from Adam. We're all Adam's race.
B: No matter how anybody else looks at us or what they think of us, it's what we think
of ourselves.,.
Mrs.: Well I done told you what I think of myself. I'm a Indian and I'll never be anything
else but that.


LUM-184A
pagel4
B: You're an Indian from your heart,
Mrs.: Yes, and I'll never be nothing else but that. They can call me what they please
but it don't make you change.
B: It doesn't change a thing, does it?
Mrs.: No, it don't cTange a thing with me,
B: Yeah, that's 411 Ivye ever heard, and that's all anybody else I ever talked to had
ever heard, that they were Indians. And I mean, you can't change anybody'' opinion
about that. I don't want to change it. I'm happy with it the way it is.
Mrs.: No one need te come and say you're a &:Va y Tuscarora, so I know
about those ..) and Tuscaroras. I'm an Indian, I've been one all my
life. Besides i know what them people CU ^ Carc r'Ja
the people that was with them people looked like we did, there ain't no difference
in them.
B: No, they don't, On the average they look...we all look alike.
Mrs.: Yeah, reckon on donm the line.
B: You reckon we'll still be arguing about names a hundred years from now?
Mrs.: Yeah, ain't got no better sense.
B: I wish we could settle this thing of names.
Mrs.: X1ts never been settled in Robeson County. How long int6. this world has they
been a saying, has they been a trying to get the Indian money. And the only
money I ever had in my life I worked for it. Did you know that...that don't
give you nothing?
IB: i never had any Indian money,
MrS,: I' ain'p neither, i' never seed none of that.
B: I know what you're talking about.
Mrs.; If X was to see Indian money X wouldn't know how it looks.
Mr.: I"'ve had money.
A ny


LUM-184A
page 15
B: You say you have? X.Im
Mr.: Yes, I worked outside V a z r money.
Mrs.: The only money X ever got I worked for it, and that's the only way I'll ever get
it, to work for it. You know the government ain't going to send no money out here
for me to sit o.tk is porch and live off of.
B: Do you think this is what, is this why they want to change their name, they think
that this will help us get money from the government?
Mrs.: They're wanting land, and you know the only way you ever own a piece of land? The
piece you are put in the ground, when they go down to bury yot and measure it out,
now that's your. You won't never pay another debt to own it, it's paid in full
when you go in the ground, and that's the last.
B: Well I've got a li-tle bit more than that. I've got a hundred and fifty feet by
fifty feet of lot,
Mrs.; WEll t' yours, but you'll never get done paying for it. You'll have to pay for
it ever...
B: You have to pay tax on it all the time.
Mrs.: Every year you're paying some on it. How long will it be before you Lait paying on
it? You11 be dead, you'll have paid for it a thousand times, and every year here
comes the tax, you see. This is my land, this is my land...you've got no land. The
government owns all of this land.
A: I wonder what it is...our people, people like yourself would like for the government
to do, or what they would like the government to be like, or...
Mrs.: I guess if the government would come through here and start to eir'g ff housing
ItZ^ S4& ArS- and giving them checks for a hundred or two hundred dollars a
month, that it wouldn't satisfy the debt.
B: You don't think they'd be satisfied?
Mrs.: That ain't good enough. You can't satisfy this nation. This is a nation of e II


LUM-184A
page 16
Mrs.: efernlr ii ^4^y '
B: When you say nation you mean the nation of Indians?
Mrs.: I mean the nation of Indians, whites, and niggers, all of them. They'll never
be satisfied. You can't satisfy the man. A idt s is never known to
be contented. The more they get the more they want.
B: You 4 tuW A t- : rf /X sounds like now. ~' R s
ain't worth
Mrs.: They A talking about they're so lazy.
B: How about those that work in the factories?
Mrs.: Same way, they work just as hard as dogs, they get their check on Friday night
and Saturday ain't got nothing-g t y.' Somebody's got
money...it's just like I told them M J) "dfC 6I
TImrit~e~ il i^ J^^ if J, ___
It's the truth.
B: ,ell I guess in a sense we're all in a mess.
Mrs.: There ain't no way out. The grave will take us out. Now you believe in it, and
you know the grave will take us out.
B: It might be worth, also...
Mrs.: I want you to tell me what, in the name of sin, you are are getting out of what
you are doing up and down the road, talking to people. There's nothing to it.
It will never be no more than it is now.
B: Well you don't find me going that downward direction but the upward one, right?
Mrs.: That's the only place you'll ever have any peace, when we get to Jesus' kingdom.
B: Reckon many of us-- ill make it?
Mrs.: Not without cleaning up ft t ; and get cleaned up.
B: How about we fellows that's a walking around with this long hair and...
Mrs. The Bible says you are,.without the knowledge-of Christ. It says you arelwithout
the knowledge of Christ,that long hair. He says a man with long hair is with-


LUM-184A
page 17
Mrs.: out the knowledge of Christ. I believe it too.
/ B: Well there's a lot of it going on, isn't there?
Mrs.: LF sj i fI Ii*!
B: I guess you told me, didn't you?
Mrs.: Yeah, I've told hundreds. They said Jesus had long hair, I said how do you
know what he had? You never seen Jesus, at no time.
B: I don't argue about mines I just smile and go on.
Mrs.: Back n .Jesus' day there was no pictures or nothing else, and how do you know
how he looked?
B: Right, I don't know.
Mrs.: That's what I told them when they tell me that.
B: Do you think many of our people are going, as far as dressing is concerned, do
you think they're following in the modern styles, or do we still have some
Indians who are old-fashioned, so-called old-fashioned that still like to wear
their long dresses and the boys like to cut their hair short...
Mrs.: Well we got a few of them kind of people that's been well-raised. I know mostly
what it is our nation lost--the people don't raise their children. The children
are raising the mother and daddy. When he comes home ;jS I;Jy ~ -' t i
(orkf, she wants h9Le i he's got that he gives him a car and
C Ad a e He gets everything e;wants, /L it r 7' w*
And that's what) our nation, our mothers and fathers are causing i + tF^
_t__ __; __ the older people.
B: You think we ought to go back to spanking and stuff like that?
Mrs.: No,4don't need to, sank. You need to get you*) 0 c. _f
B: 4 /y _;// ?
Mrs.: & Sil hp io Tlc h lw OUJ &-


LUM--184A
page 18
B: You gave me another good Lumbeeism when you said 3S^ fr
^A^^y0 ^ O1 UItft L you'll give me some more of those good old Lumbeeisms,
won't you? Did you ever hear anybody say, "Ho, people..."
II II
Mrs.: Ho, people, quit talking nothing.
B: _, l o i
Mrs.: (__t_____- ___
B:
Mrs.: No, we^t v we stayed up above __a______ and Marilyn and Uncle
George stayed with us. 1 stayed in the house and
Aunt Marilyn and they had to go to church every Sunday morning. Uncle George
he put up his own porch right good. And I was about to go up the hill /Ax
they'd go up and down 7K. X i I and then one morning, it was on Monday
morning trying to go to work, and Marilyn and Uncle George was C C6^t )
and I d C/ Marilyn says, "George, I wish this morning we
was in Roanoake, Virginia." He said, Ywish was in hell.'
B: People were either...thev were wasn't they?
Mrs.: She was an old ^ C <At ?
B: What do I mean if I say, that's a ? If I se a girl come walking
up there with a miniskirt up there and I say ain't she a R f t e what
do I mean?
Mrs.: That -JBep 41A f- l .R-D*.
B: She's a sight te-be looked upon, isn't she? ;
Mrs.: Ain't she a sight? You look upon fl t S, and she is
a walking about with i +T 0n kX .
B: Well guy-s Y .^ r rit. You reckon that's why they wear them
like that?


LUM-184A
page 19
Mrs.: I don't know. I'd change it \AC4 pu(l 'a without
the knowledge of Christ Jesus. That's the truth. I'm a telling you the
truth.
B: tlere do you go to church at) L
Mrs.: I been a going to ( tC and the Sunday School, but
B: This is where you're talking about splitting?
Mrs.: Yeah.
B: Which side were you on?
Firs.: I'm on the right si-de. Now I believe that them old men...
B: What are y'all fussing about over there?
Mrs.: They're talking about __11,00__
B: Over this %II/O.
Mrs.: They got about $11,000 in the bank in Pembroke, and they don't know what to do
with i-t. Somebody's a wanting it. That's what it's about, money.
B: And they don't know what to spend this $11,000 on?
Mrs.: No, they've got a good church.
B: Tell them I know where there's a couple of fellows could use some.
Mrs.: Well they wouldn't give you a penny if you say you've got,,ie/4t1 ^f/ A rbc
B: Is that right? f V } /
Mrs.: If you don't get outland try to help yourself rather than go on.
B: Seriously, there was a time when our people really seemed to love each other,
don't you think?
Mrs.: Yes. Ain't got time now. Honey, they ain't got time to JL A Det'
Mr.:, I was thinking about my grandmother, Uncle Ronnie, and all them old people.
They still love one another. If anything happens to one another,
7 if they couldn't work it theirselves they'd come down there and work
out that pfa/ r b y They felt it anything .
J i


LUM-184A
page 20
B: Good old fashioned neighborliness.
Mr.: That's not today, no, that ain't today.
B: Wood-sawing, get all the wood together and help each other cut all the J
it A AA^ and how about sewing bees? Did you ever have a sewing bee?
Mrs.: Quilting.
B: Quilting, anything...
Mr.: All your old (L 4 C&
Mrs.: Cook a little something and have the people to come and quilt, two or three
quilts a day. They have quit using quilts now. They're wrapped up in
electric blankets.
B: They just get them an electric blanket...
Mrs.: That's all you ever see in all these rich homes.
B: Do you think it's theSC 4 _9'd f) ing things with that?
Mrs.: No, I don't. Alright, L dW@ / fW- s not alright to not want people
in your home.
B: Do you remember days when we didn't have any electricity at all?
Irs.: Yes, Lord.
B: How was it back then? Was it pretty rough?
Mrs.: No, it wasn't rough, we were used to it. I don't regret my life UAC__ _
one bit.
B: Would you rather live in the so-called old days than in...
Mrs.: Yes, I believe so, even though way back when I was young you could get out and
cook supper and sit out on the porch and hear maybe someone a hollering way back
......E later on in the evening you could hear someone whittli Xor
singing or going to get their cows and milking them and calling the hogs. AThere
ain't no hogs to come to you, there ain't no chickens that come to you,there's
nothing like it used to be. You could listen to the chickens crowing...you never


LUM-184A
page 21
Mrs.: hear that now.
B: None of them...
Mrs.: There ain't no chickens on this place.
B: Ant icebox ..l.. chicken can't crow because a lot of people say that the only
chicken they've got is in the refrigerator so it doesn't spoil, right?
Mrs.: That's right, that's the truth! All over down there you could go to somebody's
house and get you a jar of milk. You don't have no farm, no hogs, no nothingI
There's nothing in the country.
B: We all have to live out of the store.
Mrs.: Everything she gets is in Lumberton.
Mr.,: jUA1 I& o t f there TE a lot of ,e ,
Mrs.: Dead people.
B: Yeah, I'm afraid so.
Mrs.: Look at all that pretty grass out there, ain't a cow in this country. People
come in here and dr:'i.-.g in their cows at night, shutting them up, milking
them, feeding the hogs...
B: Does anybody have cows any more?
Mrs.: Chi-ldren don't know more about them than .-ry tbhmilk in the front of her.
Ain't got sense enough to go around and milk the cow.
B: She'll dry up if you don't milk her, won't she?
n't
Mrs.: I milked a cow 't11 I got to where I could 4use my hands. I couldn't milk for
milk.
B: What happened to you, you got arthritis?
Mrs.: No, I ain't got...my hands are give out on me ( t cA
B: What do you do every day, just keep house and take care of the boss man?
Mrs.: Well now when Pat works I got about forty, fifty hie0ahogs. I feed the hogs,
I straighten up around here, I work d 4), I cook, I work at my


LUM-184A
page 22
Mrs.: garden--I'm going to put lettuce and tomatoes in now, starting me a crop- of
tomatoes. I keep trying to see what grows and tomatoes / S ef X
B: Well you don't have but two in your family and you don't need a deep freeze,
do you? You got a deep freeze?
Mrs.: Yeah, I got me one in yonder paid.
B: You say you have? I gotta go with you in there.
Mrs.: Well, come on, go in there and look.
B: I don't want to just look, I want to carry away some stuff.
Mrs.: Well come on in there and see what you can find, and you're welcome to it.
B: Bless your heart.
Mrs.: The Lord will bless you and tell you it's better to give than it is to recieve.
B? Well, that's true.
Mrs.: I can give you a pack of i I believe there are peas.
B: I love vegetables, I'll tell you I do.
Mrs.: I can okra, I never eat one in my life outen a freezer, I can't eat them.
B: What do you think about television and cars and things like this?
1UfAe?, s f Its
Mrs.: It's not what goes in it's what comes out. I don't __ you don't
^ ^ and L_ _, it's what comes out.
B: You know what your brother and I were talking about this morning? Ghosts and
haunts and totems and things like that. Do you believe in totems?
Mrs.: Yeah, but I don'g believe in haunts.
B: What's a totem like, for you? We were trying to decide what a is.
Mrs.: Well, I hang...I've heard people say that when a man is dead, if a man killed
anybody, you carry part of him to death, and that's not true. His conscience
is the one that carries part of him, his old conscience. The body-...
B: The old people used to say that that was a man's spirit that worried him to
death.


LUM-184A
page 23
Mrs.: Yeah, but the Bible says this, that (f and when the
-C/C( ^f A ) but a dead man,
there's nothing to him, no more to -- you were dead. If you
don't know the truth, honey if you don't know Jesus, if you ain't got God,
piy^ r W /f 1 r Y9'. Jesus is the only one I'm looking to.
B: Let's talk about these totems again. Did you ever see one?
Mrs.: Nope. A e d v# .id
B: Have you heard spirits?
Mrs.: No, I...I...no...nobody like to scared you to death.
I was a coming, I'd been over y-onder to see one of Jessie's children, Jessie's
dead now, me and Edmund and S ((7 ,four people were j
a little ways 'just down the road. We got out the wagon and
vtI 3/ NSt Just as I walked down on that bridge, there's
was something looked like Jessie said. "whoosh" blowed me right in the face-:and
______ '_a_1/ v No, it wasn't nothing. But honey when j;f
WkJ /tk aof IV C W1&* just said, Lord, if it had been a bear I'd a been killed
and et and wouldn't know it.
B: Were you scared?
Mrs.: I was scared to death, and almost lost my breath.
B: Some people wouldn't know what we were talking about if we said I got to get up
1 b aq in the morning. What would I mean if I said I had to get
up ) in th morning?
Mrs.: Get up to go to work?
B: In time to do whatever I had to do, right?
Mrs.: Right. ( UcCe D)
Mr.' A lot of these things people don't believe but it's true.
Mrs.: People way back in the old days could see things.


LUM-184A
page 24
B: I don't know have you ever heard this superstition, or call it what you will...
I don't want to get in an argument about whether it's superstition or not, I
just love to listen. I love -- hear you talk)and I'm not going to disagree
with you no matter what.
Mrs.: Letme tell you this. Me and as a picking peas and okre on the
family hill back over there in that field, and Me&kg e he says Pinkie,
V y f2 f MC 'l f 8 cr come to see me Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.
She says God damn it, everybody at the r_ S __ church has been here
tonight. I said C) I...she says, God damn fA jffi
tonight, she said they're coming in droves, coming from e y
tonight. Pinkie, she says, God damn it...
B: Did she cuss like that?
Mrs.: God damn it, she says, there's something going to happen tonight.
B: She wouldn't say damn it, now, she'd say dan it, right? She'd change it around
a little.
Mrs.: She said there's something a going to happen in this country. She said you just
watch. Every morning, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, she says,
| J^ -Iiy0% 4 g Ce /iiftf She says everybody at the Pr-es
graveyard has been to this house. I said, well I honestly I J es r nOf Aell
She says just wait and see. Well it got along Friday, and that Friday evening
before the sun had went down, we ead T ^XC ) We had e f/ X W
an (_ A^ ^_ _,_ p they said Cever d -- eJ
.' was to come up yonder at that house, &'V AC^ I/f(RAQ he died
right in front of that house that's there on the hill. And I/SS said
she hadn't seen the Reverend ) that week. She said everybody at the
r x_____ n Church had been there.
B: You remember how boys used to holler at night?


LUM-184A
page 25
Mrs.: Yeah, you never hear any of it now.
B: I wonder why they did that? So their girlfriend would hear them?
Mrs.: Right.
B: But it sure sounded beautiful, didn't it?
Mrs.: Yeah.
B: Some of them were quite good at it. Did Lawrence ever come by your place
hollering?
Mrs.: JAfter me and Lawrence married I could hear him a hollering from my place across,
along the swamp over there, coming from the woods at night.
B: You'd know he was coming, wouldn't you?
Mrs.: Yeah, we was married then.
B: Yeah, he was coming home.
Mrs.: Coming home.
B: You'd get real glad and happy.
Mrs.: Yeah, coming home.
B: You guess that's why he did it? So you'd know he was coming?
Mrs.: I don't know but he always would holler at night. He'd be out late at night
and come in a hollering.
B: I'd like to get...
B: This is side two of the interview with Mr. and Mrs. Locklear, Mr. and Mrs.
Locklear, and I think I'm going to get to talk to Mr. Locklear on this side
of the tape, okay?
Mr.: We went out that night and we went on across the long swamp with the dogs and
when we got across the swamp the dogs treed over there, and I knowed they
they kept a barking Ad
hadn't treed up a tree andAwe went over there close to them, and there was
something up there hurt. W e tried to get the dogs on it and they wouldn't


LUM-184A
page 26
Mr.: go on it, and it left and went on across the woods. They run about a quarter
of a mile, I reckon and went into a field and made a turn and down the old
road we met it. And we met that thing on the road, right aside of a pine tree,
and it looked like a black stump then. And them boys said, let's kill it, it's
a bear. And I said you boys better let that thing alone, they was close. And
they went over to a oak tree and got them a sticker piece, come back down and
beat that thing, and the more they beat it the little it got, and the more they
beat it the little it got, till it got to a little bit of a thing a laying down
there and then finally- they got scared. They couldn't get none of the dogs
on it then so we all kindly got scared and started to running. We left the dogs
and we got to the swamp and crossing the swamp the dogs had done crossed and
left us. The next, that Saturday night one of the boys with us got burnt up.
The house burnt up on him, and he got burnt up and that same thing that I seed,
that was the same thing. That boy's arms was burnt off, each cne of them, up
here, level with his head, and burnt off here.
B: You think this was his totem? A
hopf
Mr.: Yes, that's right, that was his totem, and he bh.Ped&to beat his own totem that
night.
B: Yeah, I'll take a cup of coffee.
Mr.: And he hoped to beat his own totem that night and we put out the fire the next
morning. I said that's the same thing we seed last night, the same identical
thing. Looked like a black stump.
B: I want to say a Word about the noise that we have coming in. We're sitting out
on the y IS which means porch, and we're recording this, so the
cars are going by and the birds are chirping in the treetops. A little boy
is playing with his tricycle and so on, so we are having some extra sounds coming
in but it's nice out here. It's nice to work out in the open, isn't it? You


LUM-184A
page 27
B: enjoy sitting out on the like this?
Mr.: I enjoy sitting out on the porch like this. Well, I...
B: It's sure cool, isn't it?
Mr.: It sure is. I enjoy sleeping out here at night on the...
B: People used to do that a lot, didn't they? Sleep out on the porch or sleep
out in the tobacco barn when you were curing tobacco.
Mr.: Sleep out i-n the tobacco barn at night, curing tobacco.
B: You don't have to sit up with it all night, now, like you used to, do you?
Mr.: No, we don't sit up with it at all at night. Don't have to sit up with it.
B: Just set a thermostat and go.
Mr.: Yeah.
B: But even in my boyhood you had to sit up in the tobacco barn and keep the logs
pushed in to the burner.
Mr.: Yeah, that's what you had to do.
B: I guess there was a lot of courting around the barns, don't you reckon?
Mr.: Right smart of it.
B: Our older people were pretty strict about calling bedtimes.
Mr.: Yeah, they called bedtime on us at eight o'clock alright, at night.
B: Right. But during tobacco curing season they didn't call it at all because they
had to have somebody sit up and watch the furnace.
Mr.: Yeah, we had to keep somebody along.
B: Were those pretty happy times for you?
Mr.: Y eah, they were whole lot better tames for me than what it is now.
B: Well things have certainly changed.
Mr.: Yeah, things have changed a lot now.
B: What kind of dog is he?
Mr.: That's one of them little chihuahuas.


LUM-184A
page 28
Mrs.: I'm a making coffee, I'll bring it out there in a minute.
B: Thank you very much.
Mr.: He's a little dog.
ji.OB: You're quite a girl. Your husband says that too.
Mr.: We had a old lady be sick one time when I was a young fellow and I was staying...
A/ i (5 y' Aeg woman and she was scared and I'd be a staying with her at
night, and I walked about a mile from her home thit evening -f The and
I come in and she was gone go h doc, and I eat supper, and I says I'm a
going to leave here tonight. I'm a going over, and I was wondering why the
old lady was sick, and I knew this lady she w-as scared too about that, she
was scared, she wouldn't stay there that night by herself. And I walked out
to the road I seen the woman a coming and I kept a standing there watching this
woman and I thought it was the woman that I was staying with at night, and I
just hid right behind a bush beside the road to keep her from seeing if I wanted
to go to that house too, where there was some girls, and as close as the woman
got to me, I kept a watching her. I said, that's not Bertha, I spoke to myself,
I said that's not Bertha. And I seed this woman a coming, and she always wore
a bonnet, you know, something on top of her head, and &h'S AJ -A j/^1te 4I
Jn'C k and I stood right there behind that bush until she passed by me. The minute
she passed by me I got up and I left there too. I went on to that house but,
I never told none of them people that. I never told none of them people what
I had seed that night.
B: You know, I've been thinking, about Indian home remedies that we use among our
people and some of those things work, you know? You remember...you know we make,
we used to make our own toothbrushes and things like that, go to a gum tree,
and they worked marvelously, didn't they?
Mr.: Yeah, they worked good.


LUM-184A
page 29
B: And things like this.
Mr.: Scrubbed our teeth with soda.
B: Right. And they really worked. Home remedies, some of them, you know, people
might say, well there are nothing to home remedies, but you know doctors picked
up- a lot of those home remedies.
Mr.: Yeah, they picked up. Now, you take it way back when I was a boy when people
got sick with the pneumonia, the doctor would come in here and help the people...
they'd take this mustard salve, the doctor would tell the people how to treat
their children about pneumonia with this mustard salve. Cook it,-take a woolen
shirt and apply a whole lot of the stuff and stick it to them, and that will
break the pneumonia.
B: Break your temperature, you mean?
AmcC/e /*
Mr.: Yeah. Old Doctor MeGlum, that's what he had the people to do.
B: Uh huh. A lot of Indian people like Dr. McClellan. He lived in Maxton.
Mr.: Yeah, he lived in Maxton. He was a wonderful doctor. As long as he lived that
was my doctor.
B: He's dead now?
Mr.: Yeah, he's been dead a good many years.
B: Well he's the man who used to come around my home, too, a lot.
Mr.: Yeah,he'd go out in the country with the Indian people and stay with them at
night.
B: He'd sit up with you throughout the night if you were really, if you were sick
and you needed somebody with you. He'd stay right there.
Mr.: Yes sir, he'd stay right there with you.
B: But you can't get a doctor out to see you now, if you're sick. They don't have
time.
Mr.: Now, I was real bad off here about two weeks ago with the pneumonia. I believe


LUM-184A
page 30
Mr.: it was about two weeks. I know it's had to been. We called a doctor here at
Pembroke about one or two times before I could ever get him out here. They
wanted me to go there. Well I was sick, I just weren't able to go. When he
got here he said, you're right, you didn't need to go there in your condition.
Well he come out here twice and treated me and that's the only time he's come
out. If it had been Dr. McClellan he'd a come out, you wouldn't never have
to send back after him. He'd a kept coming out to see how you was doing.
B: Well I guess the doctors have a bigger load now than they used to. Not enough
doctors to go around, I guess.
Mr.: Well the doctor don't know nothing about the patient like the old doctors di4d
nohow. They don't examine a patient like the old doctor examined nohow.
B: Do you remember Dr. Locklear at all?
I was
Mr.: Yeah,Aa little fellow, that's right. Yes sir, that was another doctor tool
B: You remember what he looked like?
Mr.: Yeah.
B: Was he handsome?
Mr.: Huh?
B: Was he handsome?
Mr.: Yes, he was, that fellow. He weighed about 200 pounds and real nice.
B: Was he tall, or slender?
Mr.: Yeah, a good-sized tall man, a good sized man.
B: Did people love him very much?
Mr.: Yes, the people liked him. He was a good doctor.
B: About how many years do you suppose he practiced?
Mr.: I don't know. I was a youn_ fellow when he died. I was a young fellow.
B: Do you remember how he died? a,
Mr.: Well, it's said that they put that q f i Hl over his nose at night


LUM-184A
page 31
Mr.: and went to sleep and that's the way they said...I heard that he died, I don't
know how he died. /
B: ^ w X staying up at night.
I 0 I ft
Mr.: Yes sir, that !4el tIra Ctf stuck over his nose, you know, in a handkerchief...
B: Oh.
Mr.: That's the way they said he died, I just don't know. I'm just telling you what
I heard.
B: Something like chloroform?
Mr.: Yeah. I'm just telling you what I heard, I don't know how he died.
B: Well I've heard, you know, several versions of this, and I'd just like to know
for the sake of the record jus thow he died. Some people say he committed suicide,
some people say...
Mr.: Well a lot of them boys, them old men like thatvthey had the heart attacks, the
r(S&T'/t./.. they had heart attacks, a lot of them. He might have had one,
I don't know.
B: That was Mr. Preston Locklear's son.
Mr.: That's right, old man Preston Locklear.
B: Do you know what his mother's name was?
Mr.: Line ...Granny Line.i, that was her name.
B: Volta Lauren
Mr.: Granny Line,
B: Granny Line, like in L-i-n-e?
Mr.: Well, she was my grandmother and he was my granddaddy, too, you know, the old
man 'reston was.
B: Uh huh. Well there was a big family of those children, weren't there?
Mr.: Yeah, there was a pretty good family of them.
Mrs.: Twelve of them.


LUM-184A
page 32
B: Twelve.
Mrs.: The boys...
B: There's Mr. Thornton, I was a very very close friend of his, Mr. Thornton, Mr.
Gaston,...
Mr.: Harrington...
Mrs.: ( {CA JOT E )
B: No, I mean Mr. Harrington and...
Mr.: =Uncle Lee?
B: ...I don't mean Mr. Thornton, now. Mr. Lee is the baby, right?
Mr.: No.. Uncle Epsley, Uncle Juney, and Uncle Governor,
and Aunt Kitty, and Aunt Olivia.
Mrs.: And Epsley
Mr.: I called him, I think I called him.
B: Epsley, uh huh, I heard my mother talk about him, I remember.
Did you ever work at the saw mill with my father?
Mr.: Huh?
B: Did you ever work at the saw mill with my father?
Mr.: Oh yes, Y < Plenty...I worked there many years with
him, many years.
B: He loved to pull the lever on the saw mill.
Mr.: Yeah, that's all he wanted to do, yeah, that's all he wanted to do.
B: Did the men around the saw mill like him?
Mr.: Yes sir, they all liked him. They all liked Harper, yes sir.
B: There was a lot of timber to be cut in those days.
Mr.: Oh plenty of it, plenty of timber, plenty of timber to be cut back then. I've
cut a many a pine tree down with a ax.
B: How about turpentine, did you ever work with...


LtM--184A
page 33
Mr.: No, I never worked with no turpentine.
B: Now that was a little earlier than even you are.
Mr.: That was before I was...I never did even think about anything like that.
B: You ever hear the old people talk about...I don't consider you the old people
or me old people...but did you ever hear the old people talk about, you know,
the point in time about the shakes?
Mr.: Yeah, I heard talk about that.
B: A minor earthquake in 1866.
Mrs.: i_ C_ ___ )
Mr.: The shake Cc__e id)
Mrs.: IA" fi2 S kL&, eBoth, lw e5,.said the fish were gi/
X Sc^ said the coyotes was a barking and the dogs was a whining...
B: Everything was touched off or disturbed.
Mr.: Everything was backwards to them.
Mrs.: Everything was backwards. Lord, he said, that was a night he'd never forget.
B: Was that a great...do you think it was a great earth tremor? It must have
been pretty bad to shake the trees like that
Mrs.: Well, he said that the trees were,.i5 a' ,
Mr.: He said, why, it would shake some of the windows out of the houses.
Mrs.: It must not have been like a twister, because ac / f-)__
Mr.: No, that was just a....
B: It must have been a minor earthquake.
Mr.: That was the shakes, I call it.
B: Well when you talk to our people and you know, our older people, they would all
say, I was such and such years old when the shakes t Fte- r
Mr.: When the shake was.
Mrs.: [ C t eeJC


LUM-184A
page 34
B: That was one of his expressions, alright. He was a good old guy.
Mr.: When I was sitting at the house one Sunday evening and there was a fellow come
up there and I was sitting there watching him, I wasn't sitting with none of
the rest of them, I was sitting there watching him, and when this man got up
to leave and was going down a old road like, I gets up and I walks behind
this fellow, I reckon about twenty-five or thirty yards. And when I comes back
to the house and sits down on the porch, the woman that was there she says,
what are you watching that man's face for. I says, I just a looking at him.
I seen death on that man that Sunday, and I said to myself, I turned my back
to him and I come to the house, and I said, I'll not see you alive never again.
And I come on back to the porch and sit do_. And just like she says, just
what are you watching him for? I says, I just a watching him. And so that
Thursday night this...
B: You saw the death pallor on him?
Mr.: Yes sir. That Thursday night the man died. And I told them the next week, I
said, now I could have told you that and y-ou would have said there was nothing
to it. I says, I could have told you that. I said I seed death on that man a
sitting here in this porch on Sunday. I said I could have told you that, you
would have said there's nothing to it.
B: Do you think our people are friendly and hospitable to strangers like they used
to be?
Mr.: Oh there not as friendly as they used to be, no sir, no,
B: But they're still pretty friendly, aren't they?
Mr.: Yeah, they're pretty friendly, but not like they used to be.
B; Have you been satisfied with the changes you've seen taking place in the county?
Mr.: Well, yes, I'm satisfied with the changes they're doing.
B: You think we're making progress?


LUM-184A
page 35
Mr.: Yeah, you're doing alright.
B: I like to get your wife started talking because I just enjoy sitting here because
she's going to tell you what she thinks VJ I
Mr.: Oh veah.
B: That girl is...
Mrs.: _ __t t_
B: I'm going to cut it off at this point. She's got me something to eat on here,
too.
Mr.: Yeah, banana pudding.
B: Yeah.
Mrs.: You want some milP?
B: No thank you, very much.
Mrs,: I mean in your coffee.
B: No thank you, I like it plain. You're showing some of that good old Indian hos-
pitality and neighborliness and love, there, girl. I'm going to cut my tape
recorder off. Do you want to talk while I eat?
Mrs.: No, I ain't. I'm all talked out.
B: You say you're talked out? I never saw a woman that had talked out, now.
Mrs.: No, I won't talk.
Mr.: Boy, that pudding's good.
B: That's banana pudding?
Mr.: Yeah.


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PAGE 1

'LUM-184A April 26, 1974 INTERVIEWER: Lew Barton INTERVIEWEE: la.Y.1rence:~ Pinkie Locklear Transcribed: '1-IL/-'7~ K. Johnson B: This is April 26, 1974. I'm Lew Barton, recording for the University of Florida History Department Oral History program. This afternoon could you tell, us ma'am, just about where we are right now? Where in Robeson County we are right now? Mrs.: You are on Red Bank. B: ~rs.: We are in the Red Banks area of North Carolina, that's about four miles from here. to Pembroke? ;Mrs. : Yeah. B: And this is the part of the Indian community that's almost solidly Indian, isn't Mrs.: B: How far would you have to go to find a white family or a black family? '' Mrs 1 .: Well, let's see now. I don't know, it's a good piece from here. i I I Mr!. : I ,tell you about how far you'd have to go. You'd ha Ve to go about five mile B: I from here to find a black family. The gentleman over there says you'd have to go about five miles to find a black family. And how about a white family? I , rr Well, we've got white people mixed all up with our people. You would not have to go far to find them mixed. B: Well, I just wanted to know as a matter of checking out the Indian commU{\1 ty itself. Would you mind telling us what's your name? Mrs.: Pinkie Locklear. B: And who was your husband? ! M~s.: Lawrence Locklear. , B: And you' re a widow? I :Mrs. No, he's living.

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LUM-184A page 2 B: Where is he today? MR.s.: He's sitting over there in that chair. B: Is that right? I can't my vision is so poor ! sound stupid that's the reason of it, I guess. We wanted to talk to you a little bit. How old are you getting to be now? Could I ask a lady her age? Mrs.: Yeah. I was born in 1906. B: 1906. Mrs.: Yeah, April 15. How old is that? B: That's going pretty good. Mr.: Above sixty. Mrs.: I'm about sixty-seven. B: Mrs.: You're doing alright. You're still going strong. Yeah, I do, but I've got my hips and tve.. be.e'{\ <;il':_ Cou \d~-1gn>-\r-~:1 '-: at my age. : . B: Did you all have any children? Mrs.: No, I raised a daughter. B: You have an adopted daughter? What was her name? Mrs.: No, I never adopted her. I just went do~m to Lumberton and she was give to me. B: Well, she was adopted as far as you were concerned. Mrs.: I brought her home and raised hert, yeah. B: And that's what matters. What was her name? Mrs.: Addie Pearl. B: And you lived in the Robeson County area all your life? Mrs.: All my life. I've never been out of Robeson County. B: Is that right? Well what do you think about the progress we're making now among the Indians? Do you think we're getting along pretty good? Mrs.: No.

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LUM-184A page 3 B: You don't? Mrs.: No, if you could get these people together you could do something. B: It's hard to get us together, isn't it? Mrs. : They ain't got the business St:1)~".:!. B: You know something? I told some people one time that James Cole was the only person who ever really orgainized our people Mrs.: He done a good job. B: Although we orgainized against him, or united against him, it seems, it was almost a hundred percent, I guess. Mrs.: If you could get these people, if our people would get together and let them all be truthful and quit telling lies B: Is that what they do? Mrs.: Yes, they tell lies if you could get them together, like you take the ones that went down here to buy that recreation place, if he had come through this country and said "I'm going to buy these from the Indians and let everybody, every Indian family in North Carolina paid five dollars down on it, one time, and then come back in the fall, said, I'd like to have five dollars out of every Indian family in North Carolina, we'd own it. But how could we own it, only the head people are the meanest people you ever see. B: They are. Mrs.: They is, it's the head leaders. If they get a little something they don't respect poor people. B: Mrs.: They look out for the high-faluters, is that rfht? Right. kl I 1ftttJ Ju ,'s ;e rt (!C,l,f ffa_l~bout one another. Ain't no sense in that. If you ain't, if your word ain't no good, you're no good. :B: Right. Well, I haven't checked on the Lumbee Recreation Center lately, but Mrs.: There's nothing to it.

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LUM-184A page 4 B: Do many pe~l;, 1 go loolrow~ Mrs. : eJ?awd 1::lr!tt: go out there? out there W c/.() B: 'Jl.,.,C[f~lf!-.f:.o out ther#what? C/tw{-A&] 1J fiP oul-#.e,u ftA,,f Jo fj,,r-r ttd .r wun ,'-lo , What is that? [Te.'14 ~J h , Mrs.: Drinking, stealing, carrying on, and everything .S t,t,4,f~ If we could B: Mrs.: get together with our people, we might get somewhere, but like it is, it's bad news. B: Could I ask you a personal question? Mrs.: Yeah, anything you want. B: Are you a Lumbee or a Tuscarora? Mrs.: Well, I tell you the truth. I don't know what I am. B: But you do know you're an Indian, right? Mrs.: I do know I've been in the Indian race all my life. I'm not a nigger and I ain't a white man. B: Well, that's a good answer, straightforward and direct. C Lt; ttis J Mrs. I don't B: I believe you're a pretty straightforward girl, anyway. Mrs.: No one has to come and tell me I'm a nigger, I don't believe that. And no one need to come and tell me I'm a white woman. I don't believe that. So, I've got to have Indian in me somewhere. B: If we're not Indians, then we've sure suffered as Indians all our life, haven't we? Mrs.: Yeah, all our life we've been B: And we've been treated like Indians all our lives, and our foreparents before. Mrs.: That's right. B: So for all practical purposes, that's true. What do you think of the school situation? I'm thinking you're kind of a segragatio~ist. Are you?

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LUM-184A page 5 Mrs .. : No, I ain't no segregationalist. ', : .. !ff .... ) ,/IOI,~-, I believe if we can ~OU r, (b'J. O, ? ! B: I want you to tell me what you think, and what you believe. Mrs.: I believe--here's what I believe. I believe women ought to be at home, some of them, with their children, a-rais.ing them. B: Instead of working? Mrs.: Instead of being on the road from 8 o'clock this morning until 4 o'clock this evening, don't know where their'children is. B: Do you think our women do that these days? Mrs.: Ever one of them \'IJhn tao. v)\"\O \ don't want to raise their children, they're so lazy. B: A lot of our women are working in the factories now] ~~Ok)• Mrs.: They need to be at home that's the reason there's so many naked people in Robeson County, on account of the women. B: You don't mean streaking, do you? Mrs.: Streak--they've got to streak. CL~IA,t~~ They're naked before the streaking came along. B: i'(I tnink y9u're using a figure of speech. You mean, they need clothing, right? know n() 1/i;_'f &1b 0 " 1 ; ;1us'1iihey B: Mrs.: B: Mrs.: B: They need clothes on the children don't been streaking ever since they was born. Don't you-4 {J.ttlc (4c:. t' :J sitting up here L'1 t'l l( Uvl.J up to my ___ cc_\-t_V"_C_(_e_A_\"".~J~--ain't no sense in that. There You don't ! take it you don't believe in these mini-skirts and micro-mini skirts? I don't believe in pepple going naked. Do you call that going naked? Jesus intended us in the beginn1ri.g to not show our sins, H-~ +eo.checl. iri \lhe sd-.':',v\h:\J~r ;:.,-,.:.! r:•~i 1 ! 1 .•};)(' e\S:<\ o.>--,,;: c,q '( 1,,0nyn 1 ov. -ree l"\t1-tcd j 'rh-e.,( I ~~m;J t!<)a th;~,~~~i~~~:he 'was just nineteen. She's been married and she's a lovely Indian girl. She said she'd never worn a mini-skirt in her life,

PAGE 6

LUM-184A page 6 B: and I think this is a relative of yours, or she's married a family close to you, &.r{ een /.lo!Nll.5 Mr.: Yeah, that's the one. B: I just interviewed her a while ago, Peggy. Mrs.: W::,i\ ~-.er sh'lr\s 'B Mr.: [/~f;] Uh huh, she's 51v103 Me Mrs.: Don't you put this in the paper. B: one. B: No, I'm not. What do you think we ought to do about all our problems? Is there Mrs.: anything we can do about getting together? ?{AJ Yeah, it's like I told you, though, it's like I you know WV* Church over here is tore up. B: Is it split up too? Mrs.: You bet. And I told them, there's one remedy for that church. B: Mrs.: What's that? ~!., There's, let me seeA three deacons, Jake Locklear. They're getting old, then, Indians ~11 of their life. Well, they sent a conference over there, ~//etf a conference, and them men wouldn't go to it, and they when they wouldn't do it the young men picked them a deacon. I said if they'd a been Christian andjlovy~ one another, whenever they'd a went 11., t tf_ 't-1.).(, -,-,t( t.C. back there and decided-1wD"l'-l• , they wouldn't have got over there and tp listen O V(Y +o L1J rr, b:'.'~t lil", fr, .s (~1. r .(jl ~JJ~ .... ' went hu 5f-ead... #'\'iV~ Cc:,LA t& l\,.,_ve Se.lei,, ~-' 1 11 ese old men . 0 young men .HA f f'O t>~~ B: Well it's sad when the church is split up then the rest of the people are Mrs.: Out of business. B: Well, I thought•,w.e were making some progress in that direction. Mrs.: Well, we're not.

PAGE 7

LUM-184A page 7 B: Is that right? Mrs.: No, you ain't~, Tqere's no progress in Robeson County. The people don't want you to ru.~e,l<"ttf'"-:1 J Ll(t they ain't got time to stop to talk with you. B: And I take it if they talk... ,tMr. : (ef J tf!,
PAGE 8

LUM-184A page 8 B: pl;epape, yo~ got so~ethin.g. Of course, I might oe a little bit prejudiced in their favor, you know. Mrs.: Yeah, but let me tell you one thing--I love cooking. B: Do you love to cook and carry food to the cookouts at church, church socials? Mrs.: Well, no, r'~e n-e.ver ~een 1ll.uch for that but I love cooking. But not to say that I don't appreci;a,te it for the people, now, we're not got no love in the country now. People don't love one another like they used.-/o. B: We don't have as much as we used to have, it seems. Mrs.: If you a,n 't ii;tiPz alf-tkf!,i,,( ih .ff'-. 5{1,. II, you're a nobody. B: I thought you told 1D,e a wttl-le ago they were getting out of everything they could instead of getting n to ft. Mrs.: Well they're getting in everything they can and out of it, you call it any way you want to call it. B: Ohme, r alwa,y~ enj~Y' ta1k;tng with you because you always say what you, tell me the M::t;'s.: Why su:r,e., l'lte'Pe am 't no use to telling a .story __ C __ u_,1_c_f._-e_c.i_r.,.,J=--B: What do you th:tnlt of the school situation? MPs.: t beli'eye the scl'tools are going to run out to oe pure nothing. I believe they'll 'l:'un out. In 1:at.e ."years I: don't believe you' 11 have any school. B: Do you tMnk the Tuscaroras and the Lumbees will ever get together? l
PAGE 9

---------------------------------------------------LUM-184A page 9 Mrs.: argue that I:'ve never done enough, and __ J;:_l_~---~~-~ __ ,(_J_-e_e __ _ B: You didn't get interested in all that testifying? Mrs.: There was nothing to get interested in. B: Is that right? Mrs.: No. B: You were we:r,en' t you b--ovn somewhere around :bi the Prospect area? Mrs: I: don't rel"flen\ci!::1-ro. :;tle.1:teve they said I: was born over here on the Plunnner place. They -----,),..,fA"-'--"""S ... f ..... _-._-___ ac,!t'oss this one ridge on the '.Fletcher place, and then they B: M:rs. : B: And when you leave you '\tie going to leave here, right? Mrs.: No, I:'11 be ,wried in ~ooeson County. B: Not a tn:tng wrong with this girl, Enoch. This church dispute, I guess that's kind of treading where antels fear ta tread. I guess I better not go into that. Though it: is true that we do sometimes have split in the churches, isn't it? We.l,l,, 1-~ 1 s. wfu\q rou ca11mg it. When .:J'esus sough,_t __ o_ut __ h:i,_s_ d!_sciples and told the,:!} t:;o go i;p~ nP14$e to ttouse and speak his gospel without a fn 5h J, he never put a price on it. lte.,.t's a free gift, you ain't got to charge for preachiDg. B: Well the preacher has to eat too you know. Mrs.: And the preachers now got so much money. You're right about that. When Jesus sent his disciples out to preach he told them to go from house to house and preach My gospel through the Spirit and the Holy Ghost. You'll never name no other. B: Don't you Wot f Y , but you can come in and see me. I' 11 feed you and you' 11 not get a word of a sermon. Because Jesus says Ee puts it in the heart. It's very simple. In other words, what you're saying, if the people feeds his congregation spiritually,

PAGE 10

LUM-184A page 10 B: they'll feed him physically. Mrs.: That's right. B: But if he falls down, then what happens? Mrs.: Well, they're feeding more than he can eat, now. He can't use it all. B: Well he must be feeding them pretty good now. Mrs.: Well they can see t~ the way they want it, that he gives them just what they want. If there ain't -i:noney in t, they don't want to go to that church, and if you ain'~ got all if you ain't dressed up nowheres, you ain't counted, and so I said get out from among them. B: If you were talking qtt this, wttere we're sitting right now, what would you call this right lt~e, whewe we'~e sitting out in the open? Mrs. : A porch.. B: Wh.at would yo-up p~~ents ti.a.,ve called it? Did you ever hear it called Mrs.: Cw.,..C.liArJ A ________ _ B: That's what I' wanted you to say. I'm not supposed to guide you but I did: want you to point out that some of these, some of the words that we use in the Prospect Mrs.: Mrs.: B: Mr.: Mrs.: Mr.: Mrs.: B: area, back over here in good old Prospect. J -h, C~ t\t\f"\ 1 ..t..fe\ f"r• And if you want a& S, ':f I ~"1 /11 w.hsr ski zumcs in. Called what? Commissary. This is a a store s a commissary, right? 1'.hat ';s~'A":-i.'.lt all the old people call it. Let's go in the comni.ssary a few minutes. That ':e 'what 1 .a11 t~e old people call it. .. ,;_ "Sw.f"C. I She$~t and wanted to go in the commissary. If I were putting a picture up on the wall and I said to you, "How about holding this picture borsurA for me?" How would you hold it?

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LUM-184A page 11 Mrs.: Upside down? B: No, I bel,~ye you ~~s-ed out on one tlteve. How about if I'd say, "You got it catawhom.pus. '' ? Mrs.: I wouldn't say notlu'ng that I'd tell you, that thing 1! t1-io.,,.,f ft> f;D Catawhompusl Wtiy don't you st'.t'a:tgltten :tt out? :ts supposed to be the opposite of catawhompus. Catawhompus--I' don 1 t know how you spell that. I guess C::"':'.a--t-t-a-w-h-o-m-p-u-d-s, was, would you know? was, they prooal:t1ywou1dn't ltnow, would they? Mrs.: No. B: They don't know•all of our words. Mrs. : We always called tlte . ffe loi hi i'\ . this place over here across the railroad. B: Uh huh. It 1 s a swa~PY' bottom. land. Mrs.: B: Mrs.: B: Mrs.: B: No, it's lu'nd of low land and we stayed on the other side of the and Uncle Steven s~ayed on his side of the _n_~ __ i _{_n;_~_i ___ _ We stayed on the other side of the railroad from here, and they stayed on this side, and we alwyas, when we was get ting ready to go down to !Jncle Stev_e .' we say, "Let! s go aero ss the pfet:..OS~it~ to Uncle Steve's and Aunt ,1...~cS,e S ." Ee e-/{11sus 1 Your brother and :r were talking about Reoke~8ga,!.s Bay. Do you know a while ago lse e./c,,. s11 s 1 we don't know why they called it &.G*e•oea,'s Bay. Do you? Have you ever heard? No. I don I t even know how to spell it. 1 &ekt...!"'f.t But it's al.waY'9 l:teen called .lee~eu811ls Bay, ain't it? We do have some words, quite a few words, that aren't used anywhere else except among us. rf they're not I'n.d:tan words, they're surely Lumbee Indian words. Wouldn't

PAGE 12

LUM-184A page 12 B: you say so? Do you think som,e of our younger people sort of have two languages? They sort of put on a prope language when company comes around and when we get ~lr J__(JW'(\ among ourselves we let our.1;M;wtt~"61!~, sort of. Mrs.: Some of them. choose to talk, B: And we fuf/(_ :Prospect don't we? Mrs.: Some of then\ cttoese to talk proper and they don't know how. B: There ain't no pll7ope'.P way trut our way, is there? Mrs.: Our way is the only way, the right way. It ain't no good of me a putting on airs, and trying to be wtlat r afn' t. When you go .to try to be that, you is nobody. Be yourself, regardless to where you is, be yourself. B: And be proud of what you are. Mrs.: Exactly. I'm proud of what ram and who I am. B: You think of yourself as an fudian, I know. Mrs.: Yes, and I never got to think of nothing else but that. I'm not nigger, and I C-r-oa +,-~ ain't white, and r ain't '.ee_'lvkatm,. I'm a Indian, a Cherokee Indian, that's all I'd sign up for if r had to sign. B: Uh huh. And you believe ;l:;n the Cherokee? Mrs.: Yeah. We I II 1At. 0 f &f. />Mq'/~ settled through here, you know as well as you' re sitting here an_ Indian. B: We got, yeah, I know we've got the Cherokees, I wouldn't argue that with you at all, I know we got the Cherokee blood. Mrs.: You know as well as you're sitting in this house a living that we're not white people. B: True. Mrs.: We're not niggers. B: We're not Negroes, that's true. Mrs.: Well, you know we couldn't be Africans, we've got to be Indian people, there ain't

PAGE 13

LUM-184A page 13 Mrs.: nothing else out Indian. B: I've always treen told all my life tnat's what I was. Mrs.: Well that's wfl.at we is. w-e•re mixed people we can't help that, but that still don't make us neitlter_one /)lt,jefS 1'0f"'Indian. Well what we is is Cherokee Indian. We ought to ha:v,e ttra,t, t,!tey ought to give us our )!:and.. But they ain't going to give you notlif-ng. B: I'm afrai~ not, Mrs.: I know. B: But now-we hi:we other people, there were other groups, too, that settled in the yc1ill,~, ~e.,lt';.• ,~e-~11:f'i4 Cheroi:ees wlto settled he:t"e and you can go back to the records and Govet1noH ,A,ngiis,,XcClafu, he wrote a history of our people way back in 1914 and this was ~tus contenton. But we also have these other groups too. We have other groups of Indians that settled in the yalley here. But the way I look at it, an# Indian is an Indian. Mrs.: That's 1,1;:r;gh.t. They we:i:,e one naton. B: That's r;tg:tlt. I''ve t:i,aveled pretty extensively 'MliS,; Tltey, tp~ye.le.d an.d got th.e;l::li names of their families. B: I've1l\et as1l\~ny as 130 groupsof American Indians and they all act and look like r did in a sense, though I might have been a little bit brighter than them. I'm ( ,,_ I I ~/." .t like you, I CtJ,I, d!t<,v, fV: r •~4~~'! Mrs.: That's right. We''re a.11 Ind;tans, we're a nation. B: Some of them. were too. Mrs.: We come from Adam. We're all Adam's race. B: No matter how anybody else looks at us or what they think of us, it's what we think of ourselves Mrs.: Well I done told you what r think of myself. I'm a Indian and I'll never be anything else but that.

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-----------------------------------------------LUM-184A pagel4 B: You're an Indian from your heaTt_. Mrs.: Yes, andI'll never be nothing else but that. They can call me what they please but it don't make you change. B: It doesn't change a tlrl::ng, does it? Mrs.: No, it don't change a thing with me. B: Yea,h, that's E\11 J~',ve e:vev lieaTd, and that's all anybody else I ever talked to had ever hea:rd, tna.t they were Indians. And I mean, you can't change 8'!11fbod}t!.s~opinion about that. I don't want to change it. I'm happy with it the way it is. No one need to come and say you' re a -;O ({)(~r\ tt Tuscarora, so I know about those f;o '! . and Tuscaroras. I'm an Indian, I've been one all my life. Besides l' know what them people Cu t'I c l-41 r "J --------~----------the people tliat was wtli them people looked like we did, there ain't no difference in them. B: No, they don't, 0n the average they look.,.we all look alike. Mrs,: Yeah.. l reek.on on down the 1:tne. B: Y'ou ;t'eckon we'll still be arguing aoout names a hundred years from now? Mrs.; Yeah, ain't got no 1:tetter sense. B: I' wish. we could settle this thing of names. Ml:'s.: It's ne:yei; been sett'.led :;i.n_ l\obeson County. Row long :tnto., this world has they been a saying, has they been a trying to get the Indian money. And the only -money I evev had in my lf e I' worked for it. Did you know that that don't give you notttlng? B: l' neve!I! had a,ny Indi_'a,n ,money. M:1;s,: I' a.in' ;t neither, I' ne:ve,r, seed none of that., B: I' know wna,t you' re talking aoout. Mrs, : I:f I: wa,s to see Indian money I' wouldn't know how it looks. :r:;,r(itt~i'\ -Mr. : I''ve had,\111.oney.

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LUM-184A page 15 B: Mr.: Mrs.: You say you have' f -r f ~'\\ Yes, r worked OU~ sMe w.J.Jif Ille . :r ~ . '' '. .. oney. The only money I' ever got I'worked for :tt, and that's the only way I' 11 ever get it, to work for :tt. You know the government a:tn't go:tng to send no money out here for me to sit o,n .tl'-'.s porch and live off of. B: Do you think this is what, is this why they want to change their name, they think that this will help us get ,money from the government? Mrs.: They're wanting land, and you know the only way you ever own a piece of land? The piece you are put in the ground, when they go down to bury OU and measure it out, now that's yourn. Y'ou won't never pay another debt to own it, it's paid in full when you go in the ground, and that's the last. B: Well I've got a lif:tle bit more than that. I've got a hundred and fifty feet by Mr~.; WEll it' & youi;r;i~, out you ' nevev get done paying for it. You' 11 have to pay for it ever B: You have to pay tax on it all the time. Mrs.: Every yeav you,',re pa,y-ing some on it. How long will it be before you qaip paying on it? You'' 11 be dead, you' 11 have paid for it a thousand times, and every year he:re comes the tax, you see. This is my land, this is my land you've got no land. The government owns all of this land. B: I wonder what it is our people, people like yourself would like for the government Mrs.: to do, or what they would like the government to be like, or , ~;J j r':j D ti I guess if the government would come through here and start to ia,iag off housing ClAtJ. S~rfand giving them checks for a hundred or two hundred dollars a ----------month, that it wouldn't satisfy the debt. B: You don't think they'd be satisfied? Mrs.: That ain't good enough. You can't satisfy this nation. This is a nation of 4: IJ

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LUM-184A page 16 Mrs.: efe.-rnlfy, jJ B: When you say nation you mean the nation of Indians? Mrs.: I mean the nation of Indians, whites, and niggers, all of them. They'll never be satisfied. You can't satisfy the man. A -~p1.-~C,(~1_1 ____ is never known to be contented. The more they get the more they want. B: You \.--l2.. W.,.Yl &,.,,A 'j f'~. rl-'.. f , sounds like now. L/ P. ~'A SJ ain't worth Mrs. : They /\ talking about they '.r'= so _lazy. . B: Mrs.: How about those that work in the factories? Same way, they work just as hard~ dof~' they ge: their check on Friday night am! Saturday ain't got nothing ge~ ' .::,.it. -{o I {ow' tr Jt:..,. Somebody's got 6-cck money it's just like I told them J J -ht rf: )t~trD(I i l{ a.A,>,,~ I_, f !.r ; "'~ r p. ke, t,tf' & .r r, e I It's the truth. B: ~<;ell I guess in a sense we' re all in a mess. Mrs.: There ain't no way out. The grave will take us out. Now you believe in it, and you know the grave will take us out. B: It might be worth, also Mrs.: I want you to tell me what, in the name of sin, you are are getting out of what you are doing up and down the road, talking to people. There's nothing to it. It will never be no more than it is now. B: Mrs.: B: Mrs.: B: Well you don't find me going that downward direction but the upward one, right? That's the only place you'll ever have any peace, when we get to Jesus' kingdom. Reckon many of us -;1ill make it? Not without cleaning up-.-,--~~..t!:"'-'---~ 1 -_._C__l=~~(~t~•~s-i_f)_~_,.f'_~)-and get cleaned up. How about we fellows that's a walking around with this long hair and ... Mrs•.~ The Bible says you are.without _the know~edgP of Christ. It says you are:...wi.thout the knowledge of Christ,that long hair. He says a man with long hair is with

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-------------------------------------------c---~-----------~ / LUM-184A page 17 Mrs.: out the knowledge of Christ. I believe it too. B: Well there's a lot of it going on, isn't there? -;: Jr J; ' r: ' . I i'?o r (l ~-e s:s -,;~ .... ,,. ' Mrs.: f " ~; , ;. t I B: I guess you told me, didn't you? Mrs.: Yeah, I've told hundreds. They said Jesus had long hair, I said how do you know what he had? You never seen Jesus, at no time. B: I don't argue about mine• I just smil,and go on. Mrs.: Tiack in.Jesus' day there was no pictures or nothing else, and how do you know how he looked? B: Right, I don't know. Mrs.: That's what I told them when they tell me that. I B: Do you think many ofour people are going, as far as dressing is concerned, do you think they're following in the modern styles, or do we still have some Indians who are old-fashioned, so-called old-fashioned that still like to wear their long dresses and the boys like to cut their hair short ..• Mrs.: Well we got a few of them kind of people that's been well-raised. I know mostly what it is our nation lost--the people don't raise their children. The children are raising the mother and daddy. ,When he comes home /2t,,.,,'s h ;,1v t ,J .rc4~.:>I /.,Jo de) if she w.mts .,J.., k ' he's got, that he gives him a car a~d ----,---VLJ e-t.;) He gets everything ~wants, /07 /( riff( f'J) -/.he,ce B: Mrs.: B: Mrs.: And that's whatJour nation, our mothers and fathers f, 1,~ ~,._,k the older people. You think we ought to go back to spanking 41(2__ No ,,\don't I need ~o,spank. You need to get .>///y.5e;/(v. . -I .,, . ' I L 1!7)'\., ''"' I '/'I,, ,, ~tt.,y s, 1z 1 f'tt If 7 s i t'/ 1 I Wh1 p tror.-, L ..J-.... are causin_g t T J >tt? l

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LUM--184A page 18 II (I II r B: Mrs.: B: Mrs.: B: Mrs.: B: Mrs.: B: Mrs.: B: Mrs.: B: You gave me another good Lumbeeism when you said Sa y , / Al\. olt,,, l,,, .. '. !\ ou'll g1ve me so me more of those good old Lumbee1sms ""'"''----.-------""'-',:...;....'--'-.....:r~.....:\c_--==~:::,.:,,."'"""" , won't you? Did you ever hear anybody say, "Ho, people " .. ,, Ho, people, quit talking nothing. ,~muaet:nte yasS'd~ I+,./!,. 1 ~ (,t-,f (uM,dcc-No, stayed up above Mt f-4r / ('1 and Marilyn and Uncle George stayed with us. ----------'1:~=--~---stayed in the house and Aunt Marilyn and they had to go to churchevery Sunday morning. Uncle George he put up his own porch right good. they'd go up and down i / / And I was about to go up the hill and then one morning, it was on Monday trying to go to work, and Marilyn and Uncle George was [Ct.4-tdu--t-1) and I __ _.{,.___l_t,,,,...;;.'l...:.'l_C-'--'-(_,_~:_a.;...._'-_)-,#'-Marilyn says, "George, I wish this morning ~;:e . Ji ij 1C.. !f m') Y()'f morning was in Roanoake, Virginia." He said, " 0: ti Ag1. wish we; was in hell."{c A .,, . ----a-U_!l_l-_( -C;;:.._'.6.,_"-________ &\1,.' vt~ 1) People were either they were --> ,J;, , wasn't they?_ She was an old Cu ,-1 Cf .(r:. \"":J . fl ! 1): What do I mean if I say, that's a _...,__-' .. _:.[_.-•_, "_;"__l-'_~-'--•? If I ,;, a girl come walking up there with a miniskirt up there and I say ain t she a \f11 f IA. 11 f) what do I mean? That ,_J/-tCt f'-rn.•r.f? /ofl"Jt,,y ll/2;..,?'it-a.•v t 1 \ She ~sa sight to--be looked upon, isn't she? . Ain' t she a sight? 'You look upon S-v)7'..,Q. 6 J-/f \{,( .. + f'\ J.. /r, f "'J / a walking about with I D f r t':_ r, \..,, "'--~f S, ... ,/f lt:ol
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LUM-184A page 19 Mrs.: 1 don't know. I'd change it --'~--'--_c,... __ /_h_f_;_H_._.S_)_-r_,_r_-/J_. _____ ~r-~thout the knowledge of Christ Jesus. That's the truth. I'm a telling you the truth. B: Where do you go to church at J cr.,Ct./\ --,: Mrs.: I been a going to . . C U.-t'l e,,CLc_c~ B: Mrs.: B: This is where you 're talking about ~Jitting?_ Yeah. Which side were you on? and the Sunday School, but Mrs.: I'm on the right side. Now I believe that them old men ..• '-../ B: What are y'all fussing about over there? Mrs.: They're talking about '_t_l_/_._,_c_c_o_, _______ _ B: Over this 1 If ,o t'D. --'~--+,--------Mrs.: They got about $11,000 in the bank in Pembroke, and they don't know what to do with i-t~ Somebody's a wanting it. That's what it's about, money. B: Mrs.: B: Mrs.: B: Mrs.: B: Mrs.: Mr.:, And they don't know what to spend this $11,000 on? No, they've got a good church. Tell them I know where there's a couple of fellows could use some. Well they wouldn't give you a penny if you say you've got,,,,/tt-f,.. f' , Is that right? jlle_)' ) ;tn•\ ltn e1.J If you don't get out 1 ~nd try to help yourself rather th;3,n go on. Seriously, there was a time when our people really seemed to love each other, don't you think? , , tf o So 1n -/: ,; ;t,..;, Yes. Ain t got time now. Honey, they ain t got time to , 4 /) --------'----:;:r"i-, I was thinking about my grandmother, Uncle /lo)!Jl ie,.,, , and all them old people. They still love one another. If anything happens to one another, 1/te.,' cf J:c;f} I ___ 10_~)-if they couldn't work it theirselves they'd come down there and work out that {k r 1t:\c.Pr 1/v,__,(a.'\. They felt it,/~nything.

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LUM-184A page 20 B: Mr.: Good old fashioned neighborliness. That's not today, no, that ain't today. B: Wood-sawing, get all the wood together and help . I,/ each other cut all the {ztt. ,e, ... { {ril\ 1\ i:.t-1 , and how about sewing bees? Did you •=i-ler have a sewing bee? Mrs.: Quilting. B: Quilting, anything ... Mr.: All your old r(.~-ll C /e,.4,,\) Mrs.: Cook a little something and have the people to come and quilt, two or three quilts a day. They have quit using quilts now. They're wrapped up in electric blankets. B: They just get them an electric blanket .•. Mrs.: B: Mrs.: That's all you ever see in all these rich homes. I) fJ .:, , ..... ,.,, <2,._ Do you think it's theSCl\n&:.c 1 ) (I-~ \thing things with that? L .J JI~ ilvr No, I don't. Alright, '1Vhlkn.,1,,~.,\ . '\t's not alright to not want people in your home. B: Do you remember days when we didn't have any electrid.r,y at all? Mrs.: Yes, Lord. B: How was it back then? Was it pretty rough? Mrs.: No, it wasn't rough, we were used to it. one bit. I don 't regret 1 f {.f 'l C 1 ' L f (l_,.,.. my 1 e ' I ' •u t, ,, I I,. .-< B: Would you rather live in the so-called old days than in ... Mrs.: Yes, I believe so, even though way back when I was young you could get out and cook supper'and sit out on the porch and hear maybe someone a hollering way back hJ/1( , later on in the evening you singing or going to get their cows and milking could hear someone whittli~ or 11/,,J them and calling the hogs. /\ There ain't no hogs to come to you, there ain't no chickens that come to you,there's nothing like it used to be. You could listen to the chickens crowing you never

PAGE 21

LUM-184A page 21 Mrs.: B: Mrs.: B: Mrs.: B: Mrs.: Mr:: hear that now. None of them .•. There ain't no chickens on this place. AnLL.:.ebox_ ::,~~•. ___ chicken can't crow because a ,lot of people say that the only chicken they've got is in the refrigerator so it doesn't spoil, right? That's right, that's the truth/ All over down there you could go to somebody's house and get you a jar of milk. You don't have no farm, no hogs, no nothing! There's nothing in the country .,1 We all have to live out of the store. Everything she gets is in Lumberton. l( n-h 1 I l.fuv ~It\ .s-k--p /1C-( r "i)'t.,.. 1there -:ff"!:! a lot of Mrs.: Dead people. B: Yeah, I'm afraid so. Mrs.: Look at all that pretty grass out the~e, ain't a cow in this country. People come in here and d,~_:l.vi,:g in their cows at night, shutting them up, milking them, feeding the hogs B: Does anybody have cows any more? Mrs.: Chi-ldren don't know more about them than til'.'y th•milk in the front of her. B: Mrs.: Ain't got sense enough to go around and milk the cow. She'll dry up if you don't milk her, I milked a cow _, til I got to where I milk. won't she? n 't coul~use my hands. I couldn't milk for B: What happened to you, you got arthritis? Mrs.: No, I ain't got my hands are give out on me ___ --"( __ '1_1\_C_{_~=-....;;..."'....:~;,,,-,.,__ ____ _ B: Mrs.: What do you do every day, just keep Well now when Pat works I got about I straighten up around here, I work house and take care of the boss man? ft A.1,~ of forty, fifty "a@eu:nhogs. I feed the hogs, { (A,.l\e,{ ttt'\.), I cook, I work at my

PAGE 22

LUM-184A page 22 Mrs.: garden--I'm going to put lettuce and tomatoes in now, starting me a cropof tomatoes. I keep trying to see what grows and tomatoes I! 5 {1vt;l1t.r1 11' V B: Well you don't have but t~o in your family and you don't need a deep freeze; do you? You got a deep freeze? Mrs.: Yeah, I got me one in yonder paid. B: You say you have? I gotta go with you in there. Mrs.: Well, come on, go in there and look. B: I don't want to just look, I want to carry away some stuff. Mrs.: Well come on in there and see what you can find, and you're welcome to it. B: Bless your heart. Mrs.: The Lord will bless you and tell you it's better to give than it is to recieve. B: Well, that's true. Mrs. : I can give you a pack of 171.IO'SC ),t/\t~ , I believe there are peas. B: I love vegetables, I'll tell you I do. Mrs.: I can okr~ I never eat one in my life outen a freezer, I can't eat them. B: Mrs.: What do you think about television and cars and things like this? fAcJ-t!cfift s I) t.:. / It's no~ what goes in/\ it's what comes out. I don't -~6{ __ f2.=-J'1 _e __ , you don't t)_(:fj{e_, and t,1.~( .. -~f\Ji-11\'-r,{-, it's what comes out. _:}J u B: You know what your brother and I were talking about this morning? Ghosts and haunts and totems and things like that. Do you believe in totems? Mrs.: B: Yeah, but I don'g believe in haunts. What's a totem like, for you? We were trying to decide ;~ ., ' Y;;fe 11 i../ what a~ is. Mrs.: Well, I hang I've heard people say that when a man is dead, if a man killed anybody, you carry part of him to death, and that's not true. His conscience is the one that carries part of hi~, his old conscience. The bodyB: The old people used to say that that was a man's spirit that worried him to death. ------........

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LUM-184A page 23 Mrs.: Yeah, but the Bible says this, that ___ ____,_U_wt __ t_~ __ 6"' __ _ )~---' and when the ---------C--~...-.---=e,_{-a,........,_,o_)_,.. _________ i_, but a dead man, ti..1/_(,,..t,,. there's nothing to him, no more to --fj:~!Zl--1~-----~you were dead. If you don't know the truth, honey if you don't know Jesus, if you ain't got God, ~I . t'j •.J, l. ., ...,v r.,\•r~,, 10},t•, . ... •' Gt. Jesus is the only one I'm looking to. B: Let's talk about these totems again. Did you ever see ane? Mrs. : Nope. JJ11.c /2 {J re r ,l ti: Ix i 't/-J B: Have you heard spirits? Mrs.: No, I. .. I. .. no nobody _______________ like to scared you to death. dead now, me and Edmund I was a coming, I'd been over y•-onder to see one of Jessie's children, Jessie's and ~\'.f\ ( f ,J , four people were J; /wt] i "':1,1 7 -u We got out the wagon and {'$,1t,.,(,f( ? ) a little ways flust down the road. W'ttJ t,,; •J/, )it.C Just as I walked down on that bridge, there's blowed me right in the face and was something looked like Jessie)said. "whoosh" ' r -I l'..1i--t:,;f ,.t;,_ I.,.:' .>tr/leliro, it wasn't nothing. r 'l ru,111it1f , J "./But honey when _I,.. JA7f~ J I, $ /ILdtJ v1~Fl'•i tt oet1~.Ji. just said, Lord, if it had been a bear I'd a been killed and et and wouldn't know it. B: Were you scared? Mrs.: I was scared to death, and almost lost my breath. II B: Some people wouldn't know what we were talking about if we said I got to get up __ {_J,_'f#-r---/i.;..._"_1_ 1 ~ __ J __ in the morning . 1 I What would I mean if I said I had to get __ (=b'-'-k/-#---1,-~_tt.C._ ._J_in th morning? up Mrs.: Get up to go to work? B: In time to do wh~tever I had to do, right? Mrs. : Right. Mr. A lot of these things people don't believe but it's true. Mrs.: People way back in the old days could see things.

PAGE 24

LUM-184A page 24 B: I don't know have you ever heard this superstition, or call it what you will •.. Mrs.: B: Mrs.: I don't want to get in an argument about whether it's superstition or not, I just love to listen. I love to, hear you talk)and I'm not going to disagree ,.,., with you no matter what. / i" , Let .me tell you this. Me and\._,/ t ( f.~\( Uas a picking peas and okre on the family hill back over there in that field, and l]/eci(,e )he says ~~nkie, ,I'! (, lft':"J"' . I I f;!.,,'lj /\"'11 /11~f)'11~(/ come to see me Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. " r 1' . She says God damn it, everybody at the / r-e: Sm-1. church has been here tonight. I said (u.,,A-e,cf.,.,..) I ... she says, God damn j ') _,/ c.fr •/t :) 1P:,J '1 r o tonight, she said they're coming in droves, coming from~ />tu-I,~,) II fl toni3ht. Pinkie, she says, God damn it .•. Did she cuss like that? God damn it, she says, there's something going to happen tont.eht. B: She wouldn't say damn it, now, she'd say dan it, right? She'd change it around a little. Mrs.: She said there's something a going to happen in this country. She said you just watch. Every morning, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, she says, She says everybody at the /}-e J{-c-;n graveyard has been to this Louse. . r f; l ti I> .. tll" I said, well I honestly ;,J, :.,,"' 1lCurr.._. Of~ 111 1 I V She says just wait and see. Well it got along Friday, and that Friday evening d -'---l f We had J-li / /(.,.. r lei.) btfore the sun had went own, we= ----an(&tv,il 01'-C,-r "'!!"' {,m<'f 'b 1 they said ~ever _d_;_&:_, a_,,..._,' . ...,.1 __ _ J fl. /" _I /_1 ;\{2,, was to come up yonder at that house,_ ;,oit,\., {\t"\ JO(~{ flVJ. he died right in front of that house that's there on the hill. And ~/h.___:_s_J_/..,_ __ said {? ) that week. She said everybody at the she hadn't seen the Reverend C~urch had been there. B: You remember ho~ boys used to holler at night?

PAGE 25

LUM-184A page 25 Mrs.: Yeah, you never hear any of it now. B: I wonder why they did that? So their girlfriend would hear them? Mrs. : Right. B: But it sure sounded beautiful, didn't it? Mrs .. : Yeah . B: Some of them were quite good at it. Did Lawrence ever come by your place hollering? Mrs.: aft~r me and Lawrence married I could hear him a hollering from my place across, along the swamp over there, coming from the woods at night. B: You'd know he was coming, wouldn't you? Mrs.: Yeah, we was married then. B: Yeah, he was coming home. Mrs.: Coming home. B: You'd get real glad and happy. Mrs.: Yeah, coming home. B: You guess that's why he did it? So y0u 1 d know he was coming? Mrs.: I don't know but he always would holler at night. He'd be out late at night and come in a hollering. B: I'd like to get ..• B: This is side two of the interview with Mr. and Mrs. Locklear, Mr. and Mrs. Locklear, and I think I'm going to get to talk to Mr. Locklear on this side of the tape, okay? Mr.: We went out that night and we went on across the long swamp with the dogs and when we got across the hadn't treed up a tree swamp the dogs treed over there, and I knowed they they kept a barking C\aj and(\we went over there close to them, and there was something up there hurt. We tried to get the dogs on it and they wouldn't

PAGE 26

LUM-184A page 26 Mr.: go on it, and it left and went on across the woods. They run about a quarter of a mile, I reckon and went into a field and made a turn and down the old road we met it. And we met that thing on the road, right aside of a pine tree, and it looked like a black stump then. And them boys said, let's kill it, it's a bear. And I said you boys better let that thing alone, they was close. And they went over to a oak tree and got them a sticker piece, come back down and beat that thing, and the more they beat it the little it got, and the more they beat it the little it got, till it got to a little bit of a thing a laying down there and then finallythey got scared. They couldn't get none of the dogs B: Mr.: on it then so we all kindly got scared and started to running. We left the dogs and we got to the swamp and crossing the swamp the dogs had done crossed and left us. The next, that Saturday night one of the boys with us got burnt up. The house burnt up on him, and he got burnt up and that same thing that I seed, that was the same thing. That boy's arms was burnt off, each me of them, up here, level with his head, and burnt off here. You think this was his totem? ho Yes, that's right, that was his totem, and he h~J~~to beat his own totem that night. B: ~esh, I'll take a cup of coffee. Mr.: And he hoped to beat his own totem that night and we put out the fire the next morning. I said that's the same thing we seed last night, the same identical thing. Looked like a black stump. B: I want to 1 say a word about the noise that we have coming in. We're sitting out ' I , I on the p/54.J, , which means porch, and we're recording this, so the ---,'------cars are going by and the birds are chirping in the treetops. A little boy is playing with his tricycle and so on, so we are having some extra sounds coming in but it's nice out here. It's nice to work out in the open, isn't it? You

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-------------------------------------~ LUM-184A page 27 ,, I I/ B: enjoy sitting out on the f_JSCth like this? . Mr.: I enjoy sitting out on the porch like this. Well, I B: It's sure cool, isn't it? Mr.: It sure is. I enjoy sleeping out here at night on the •.. B: People used to do that a lot, didn't they? Sleep out on the porch or sleep out in the tobacco barn when you were curing tobacco. Mr. : Sleep out i-n the tobacco barn at night, curitrg 0 _ tobacco. B: You don't have to sit up.with it all night, now, like you used to, do you? Mr.: No, we don't sit up with it at all at night. DDn 1 t have to sit up with it. B: Just set a thermostat and go. Mr.: Yeah. B: But even in my boyhood you had to sit up in the tobacco barn and keep the logs pushed in to the burner. Mr.: Yeah, that's what you had to do. B: I guess there was a lot of courting around the barns, don't you reckon? Mr.: Right smart of it. B: Our older people were pretty strict about calling bedtimes. Mr.: Yeah, they called bedtime on us at eight o'clock alright, at night. B: Right. But during tobacco curing season they didn't call it at all because they had to have somebody sit up and watch the furnace. Mr.: Yeah, we had to keep somebody along. B: Were those pretty happy times for you? Mr.: Y_ eah, they were whole lot better t'imes for me than what it is now. B: Well things have certainly changed. Mr.: Yeah, things have changed a lot now. B: What kind of dog is he? Mr.: That's one of them little chihuahuas. --------_J

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LUM-184A page 28 Mrs.: I'm a making coffee, I'll bring it out there in a minute. B: Thank you very much. Mr.: He's a little dog. . ~.,.~ B: You're quite a girl. Your husband says .that too Mr.: We had a old lady be sick one time when I was a young fellow and I was staying •.. Al , t1. r -~ Mwlfu#\ /vi,f5n
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LUM-184A page 29 B: And things like this. Mr.: Scrubbed our teeth with soda. B: Right. And they really worked. Home remedies, some of them, you know, people might say, well there are nothing to home remedies, but you know doctors picked upa lot of those home remedies . . Mr.: Yeah, they picked up. Now, you take it way back when I was a boy when people got sick with the pneumonia, the doctor would come in here and help the people they'd take this mustard salve, the doctor would tell the people how to treat their children about pneumonia with this mustard salve. Cook it,~take a woolen shirt and apply a whole lot of the stuff and stick it to them, and that will break the pneumonia. B: Break your temperature, you mean? /vie.el~/~ Mr.: Yeah. Old Doctor MeGltti:rg, that's what he had the people to do. B: Uh huh. A lot of Indian people like Dr. McClellan. He lived in Maxton. Mr.: Yeah, he lived in Maxton. was my doctor J B: He's dead now? He was a wonderful doctor. Mr.: Yeah, he's been dead a good many years. As long as he lived 1 that B: Well he's the man who used to come around my home, too, a lot. Mr.: Yeah,he'd go out in the country with the Indian people and stay with them at night. B: He'd sit up 1Jith you throughout the night if you were really, if you were sick and you needed somebody with you. He'd stay right there. Mr.: Yes sir, he'd sta~ right there with you. II B: But you can't get a doctor out to see you now, if you're sick. They don't have time. 1 ' Mr.: Now, I was real bad off here about two weeks ago with the pne~monia. I believe

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LUM-184A page 30 Mr.: it was about two weeks. I know it's had to been. We called a doctor here at Pembroke.about one or two times before I could ever get him out here. They wanted me to go there. Well I was sick, I just weren't able to go. When he got here he said, you're right, you didn't need to go there in your condition. Well he come out here twice and treated me and that's the only time he's come out. If it had been Dr. McClellan he'd a come out, you wouldn't never have to send back after him. He'd a kept coming out to see how you was doing. B: Well I guess the doctors have a tigger load now than they used to. Not enough doctors to go around, I guess. Mr.: Well the doctor don't know nothing about the patient like the old doctors di4, nohow. They don't examine a patient like the old doctor examined)nohow. B: Do you remember Dr. Locklear at all? Mr.: I was / Yeah,Aa little fellow, that's right. Yes sir, that was another doctor too, B: You remember ~,;hat he looked like? Mr.: Yeah. B: Was he handsome? Mr.: Huh? B: Was he handsome? Mr.: Yes, he was, that fellow. He weighed about 200 pounds and real nice. B: Was he tall, or slender? Mr.: Yeah, a good-sized tall man, a good sized man. B: Did people love him very much? Mr.: Yes, the people liked him. He was a good doctor. B: About how many years do you suppose he practiced? Mr.: I don't know. I was a young feil9w when he died. I was a young fellow. B: Do you remember how he died? Mr.: Well, it's said that they put that t t &4 lei r I A l?r-v{e ':ver his nose at night

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LUM-184A page 31 Mr.: and went to sleep and that's the way they said I heard that he died, I don't /';Jnowf,~ow he di:ltJ fA-/o 0 B: /Ile.;_: J'-( l(/ff.S "'2f ' staying up at night. Mr.: Yes sir, that ''eh ~ene!~uck over his nose, you know, in a handkerchief ... B: Oh. Mr.: That's the way they said he died, I just don'.t, know. I'm just telling you what I heard. B: Something like chloroform? Mr.: Yeah. I'm just telling you what I heard, I don't know how he died. B: Well I've heard, you know, several versions of this, and I'd just like to know for the sake of the record jus thow he died. Some people say he committed suicid~, some people say Mr.: Well a lot of them boys, them old men like that;they had the heart attacks, the f r11c:;-t\.C:J'_, they had heart attacks, a lot of them. He might have had one, I don't know. B: Mr.: B: Mr.: B: Mr.: B: Mr.: That was Mr. Preston Locklear's son. That~s right, old man Preston Locklear. Do you know what his mother's name was? Line. . Granny Line ..... , that was her name. ~ 1 '"lauren '? Granny Line. Granny Line, like in L-i-n-e? Well, she was my grandmother and he was my granddaddy, too, you know, the old man .,.,reston was. B: Uh huh. Well there was a big family of those children, weren't there? Mr.: Yeah, there was a pretty good family of them. Mrs.: Twelve of them.

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LUM-184A page 32 B: Twelve. Mrs.: The boys ..• B: Th~re's Mr. Thornton, I was a very very close friend of his, Mr. Thornton, Mr. Mr.: Mrs.: B: Mr.: B: Mr.: Mrs.: Gaston, Harrington [ u I\C1 No, I mean Mr. Harrington and ..• =Uncle Lee? ... I don't mean Mr. Thornton, now. No •.. Uncle --~ ..... f,,_.s_le__,,,_'I __ _ and Aunt Kitty, and Aunt Olivia. And fps/(.~,> ---,'---,----Mr. Lee is the baby, right? Uncle . Y , and Uncle Governor, ------,---Mr.: I called him, I think I called him. B: ..s/et.1 ,,,, , uh huh, I heard my mother talk about him, I remember. T I Did you ever work at the saw mill with my father? Mr.: Huh? B: Did you ever work at the saw mill with my father? Mr.: Oh yes, ' J him, many years. Plenty .•. ! worked there many years with B: He loved to pull the lever on the saw mill. Mr.: Yeah, that's all he wanted to do, yeah, that's all he wanted to do. B: Did the men around the saw mill like him? Mr.: Yes sir, they all liked him. They all liked Harper, yes sir. B: There was a lot of timber to be cut in those days. Mr.: Oh plenty of it, plenty of timber, plenty of timber to be cut back theTh. I've cut a many a pine tree down with a ax. B: How about turpentine, did you ever work with

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LUM--184A page 33 Mr.: No, I never worked with no turpentine. B: Now that was a little earlier than even you are. Mr.: That was before I was I never did even think about anything like t~at. B: You ever hear the old people talk about I don't consider you the old people or me ole.~. people but did you ever hear the old people talk about, you know, the point in time about the shakes? Mr.: Yeah, I heard talk about that. B: A minor earthquake in 1866. Mrs.: LJM1c(~) /i11 C fe,c,~ =' Mr.: The shake L 1.-f f ( ,. ._d f h Mrs.: fl....r __ s_.,./ __ \....-/u-~ta-t--( 1 -~,,___, L WC,t.R~J '7ls~id the fish were ~f:r..:,•i~/ IV YI~-'-.---'--,-----"';:;...,.-_..;;;_ _ _,,~~---+------I V 7M'ftJCIV~ , said the coyotes was a barking and the dogs was a whining ..• B: Everything was touched off or disturbed. Mr.: Everything was hackwards to them. Mrs.: Everything was backwards. Lord, he said, that was a night he'd never forget. B: Was that a great ... do you think it was a great earth tremor? It must have been pretty bad to shake the trees like that., Mrs.: Well, he said that the trees were 4 .. 5f a "8,; 'W Mr.: He said, why, it would shake some of the windows out of the houses. Mrs.: It must not have been like a twister, because Cculc/~a_c) Mr.: No, that was just a B: It must have been a minor earthquake. Mr.: That was the shakes, I call it. B: Well when you talk to our people and you know, our older people, they would all say, I was such and such years old when the shakes a,. ,,ne, , Mr.: When the shake was. Mrs,: ( !.,{ 11 C{ Ll0

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LUM-184A page 34 B: That was one of his expressions, alright. He was a good old guy. Mr.: When I was sitting at the house one Sunday evening and there was a fellow come up there and I was sitting there watching him, I wasn't sitting with none of the rest of them, I was sitting there watching him, and when this man got up to leave and was going down a old road like, I gets up and I walks behind this fellow, I reckon about twenty-five or thirty yards. And when I comes back to the house and sits down on the porch, the woman that was there she says, what are you watching that man's face for. I says, I just a looking at him. I seen death on that man that Sunday, and I said to myself, I turned my back to him and I come to the house, and I said, I'll not see you alive never again. And I come on back to the porch and sit do~"2. And just like she says, just what are you watching him for? I says, I just a watching him. And so that Thursday night this •.. B: You saw the death pallor on him? Mr.: Yes sir. That Thursday night the man died. And I told them the next week, I said, now I could have told you that and y-ou would have said there was nothing to it. I says, I could have told you that. I sarl.d I seed death on that man a sitting here in this porch on Sunday. I said I could have told you th?3,t, you would have said there's nothing to it. B: Do you think our people are friendly and hospitable to strangers like they used to be? Mr.: B: Mr.: B; Mr.: B: 1 Oh there not as friendly as they used to be, no sir, no. But they're still pretty friendly, arenl they? Yeah, they're pretty friendly, but not like they used to be. Have you been satisfied with the changes you've seen taking place in the county? Well, yes, I'm satisfied with the changes they're doing. You think we're making progress?

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LUM-184A page 35 Mr.: Yeah, you 're doing alright. B: I like to get your wife started talking because I just enjoy sitting here because she's going to tell you what she thinks J , Mr.: Oh yeah. B: That girl is •.. Mrs. : W r.,.,,;t ,:M,,d1, , fJ lit f 6 ? B: I'm going to cut it off at this point. She's got me something to eat on here, too. Mr.: Yeah, banana pudding. B: Yeah. Mrs.: You want some milR? B: No thank you, very much. Mrs.: I .mean in your coffee. B: No thank you, I like it plain. You're showing some of that good old Indian hos pftality and neighborliness and love, there, girl. I'm going to cut my tape recorder off. Do you want to talk while I eat? Mrs.: No, I ain't. I'm all talked out. B: You say you're talked out? I never saw a woman that had talked out, now. Mrs.: No, I won't talk. Mr.: Boy, that pudding's good. B: That's banana pudding? Mr.: Yeah.


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