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Interview with Daniel Webster Wilkins August 10 1973

Material Information

Title:
Interview with Daniel Webster Wilkins August 10 1973
Creator:
Wilkins, Daniel Webster ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:
Language:
English

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Florida History ( local )
Lumbee Oral History Collection ( local )
Spatial Coverage:
Lumbee County (Fla.)

Notes

Funding:
This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

Record Information

Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management:
Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/.

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Full Text

LUM 148 A



DATE: August 10, 1973

INTERVIEWER: Marilyn Taylor (T'

INTERVIEWEE: Daniel W. Wilkins (W)



T My name is Marilyn Taylor, I'm recording for the Doris

Foundation under the auspices of the University of Florida

for the American Indian Oral Studies Program. Today is August

10th, 1973, and I am in Pembroke at the ABC store with a

gentleman who is employed here and I'll let him tell his name

and his position and so on. Would you give us your full name

and spell it, please.

W: My name is Daniel W. Wilkins. D-a-n-i-e- W-i-l-k-i-n-s. I'm

employed here at the ABC store as assistant manager.

T: Mr. Wilkins, how long have you been employed here?

W: Three and one-half years.

T: And what brought you--have you been here ever since we've had

an ABC store?

W: No I haven't. I came here four years ago. The store's been

here approximately five years.
6rez(
T: Are you local as much as saying that you were born and aiee
,4 10 40 Lo
in Pembroke, mo-?

W: Definitely so.

T: Then you would--do you class yourself or identify with the Lumbee

group, the name Lumbee Indians?

W: Yes, yes, Lumbee Indian.

T: Where did you come from prior to having--or, in other words, you've

lived here all your life but you were employed at a different place

than here.



1 -






LUM 148 A



INTERVIEWER: Taylor (T)

INTERVIEWEE: Wilkins (W)



W: No, I was drafted into the service when I was 18 years of age.

This was in 1945 and from then until four years ago I was here

and there. I retired from _r service four years ago and

returned here to live.

T: What branch of':g service were you in?

W: With the Air Borne infantry.

T: So you're a career man?

W: Yes, I was.

T: Are you married?

W: Yes I am.

T: And who did you marry.

W: 7e Ray Johnson.

T: We she local or was she from out of this area?

W: Yes, she grew up here.

T: And how many children do you have?

W: Seven.

T: I think names are interesting. Could you give us the names--a

rundown on them?

W: Yes. My oldest child is 26. His name is MSyL 9d.. My

second oldest is Roger Dale. My third oldest is my only daughter,

Deborah Sue. My fourth oldest is Daniel Webster, Jr. This was

supposed to be the last. And next, of course, is little Michael

and then my baby, of course, Craig.




-2-






LUM 148 A



INTERVIEWER: Taylor (T)

INTERVIEWEE: Wilkins (W)



T: Daniel Webster, that has a famous sound to it.

W: Yes, I don't know how I happened to get hooked with that one.

T: Well I think it certainly has -the sound of intelligence or ring

of, uh, something about a dictionary. Do you understand any of

that?

W: Oh, I don't know anythinguch bout that. I got this from my

grandfather. His name was Bap-Webster, of course, and I've been

teased about it e many times, how it sounded so dignified.

T: How did you find it in E services race relations as an Indianj

/id you find there was any discrimination there?

W: There was quite a bit of discrimination initially. In other words

from 1945 to 1953 there was a feeling of discrimination, not

directly to me, but to other races that I was fortunate enough to

serve with- Chinese and others.--Puerto Rican. But in 1953 when

the service became totally integrated, then, of course, it eased

the tension some what and things were better all the way around.

T: Did you find in giving--when you had to give identification just

maybe in general conversation and socializing with men or maybe

even women, when the fact came up that you were a Lumbee Indian

was this a mystery as to maybe the origin and so on and did you

find yourself explaining anything about the, oh, where the Lumbee's

came from?

W: No, this never happened to me directly. Usually I was asked, or if

the situation came up of "What is your race", I just said "Indian".

And there was never any question about that.




3 -






LUM 148 A



INTERVIEWER: Taylor (T)

INTERVIEWEE: Wilkins (W)



T: Has there ever in--I believe don't think we got it on tape--your

age. How old are you?

W: Forty-seven.

T: Forty-seven. And these things we want to bring out inj the

open if they're there, with bitterness or without, whatever the

true emotion of the true feeling is. Did you ever have felt

discriminated against because you were an Indian or are an Indian?

W: Never while in service, no.

T: Where then?

W: Here at home.

T: Could you share some of that with us? Because we do want to bring

it out and tell us some the situation or experience -e-

you had.

W: Well there's a many a such situations of--if you had lived here

as long as I have, of course you'd understand this, but for

instance, the movies were always segregated, the shopping centers--

portions of the shopping centers--the area where the food was

being served, for instance, was segregated, and at one time there

was signs posted all over town--not this town--never in Pembroke--

Lumberton, Red Springs, Maxton, the other small towns and areas,

"white only", "white only", "white only".

T: These are all within a ten or 12, 15 mile radius of where we are

today l Pembroke.

W: Most definitely so. And it's especially true for a small town




4 -






LUM 148 A



INTERVIEWER: Taylor (T)

INTERVIEWEE: Wilkins (W)



which is only about 12 miles from here, Red Springs.

T: I've heard a great deal of talk about it. Why--you started to

-se something about an Indian, go ahead with that.

W: Well, it's just that an Indian, and the colored never had a

chance in this particular town. As a matter of fact, there's

still a certain portion of the town that's still segregated.

T: But yet the population is seemingly you go through town you

can see a great deal of/lack people, white, but I've never

been particularly race conscious until I got with this program

and it seems like you notice, well the potential interviewees

that you know, maybe can get or something of this nature and

you become conscious in that concept. But therel-e always been

different races that lived there have there not5 A-C 4 4a-0 ao e?

W: -ee-rjas far back as I know, yes) or many, many years.

T: When you would go to Red Springs, how did you feel when you'd

see these signs for "white only", really? I mean you can

describe the emotion.

W: Well it's kind of hard to describe. It give you a feeling of

having been left out or feeling of not being wanted in your

own home or your home town, or your own home state, your

county, the place where you lived. And yet you feltyou were

contributing, through your family, as much to the town as anyone

else in so far as spending your money there, buying your goods,

your food, your supplies, fertilizer for the farm, almost everything,




5 -






LUM 148 A



INTERVIEWER: Taylor (T)

INTERVIEWEE: Wilkins (W)



and yet there was p' oe in the town, the movies for instance,o- -

wbre segregated white downstairs, colored and Indian upstairs

and you never felt at ease, you always felt very downgraded.

T: Was there any fear in your feeling--a feeling that you were being

threatened?

W: No fear, just hatered--no fear.

T:A hatred against the white man or white person, white people in

general?

W: Most definitely so.

T: Have you felt any easE of this situation other than--today?

W: Yes, I-for the many years, well for the 21 years I was gone from

here I never intended to return because I knew or I expected to

find things practically as I had left them. But this was not the

case. I came home on leave with the understanding--my family and

I--that we would return to Alaska and live there. But when I came

home I noticed that the signs were gone. The racial signs were

gone and that the people were more friendly in general and our

schools had grown in size and that they were integrating the

schools and all of a sudden I felt like maybe this is the right

place to live--this is the place I've always wanted to live any-

way, because it's home. But I was willing to give up this home.

As a matter of fact, no one told me I had to stay in the service

for 21 years. I did this on my own because I wanted to stay away

and yet I wanted to return if you can understand this.




6 -






LUM 148 A



INTERVIEWER: Taylor (T)

INTERVIEWEE: Wilkins (W)



T: Yes I can. It's an ambivalent--mixed emotions feeling there.

I think it is understandable. You do feel the need f get away

but you want to come back also. Have you ever back and

regretted your decision for returning? Af very r.44. r.7 way? /r: f''. a-

W: No, no as a matter of fact I'm glad I made the decision to

remain here because almost every day I see things I can remember

back, you know, when you rode in the back of the bus, you could

not ride in the front of the bus, ,/ou could not sit here, you

could not go here or you could go in the drug store and get a

$50.00 prescription filled, but you could not sit down and have

a Coke while waiting to have this prescription filled. This is

no longer true and it's a good feeling even though the bitterness

and we who remember--it's still there. I'm in hopes that in time

4f4 this bitterness will t gone. ef &-A /- -, A

T: Well I was going to ask you that, how do you deal with it because

it's a very human thing, and it's understandable, yet you come

in contact in your business with all races and white, as you said,

it's integrated, the signs are down. Are they down in people's

minds seemingly? Do you feel this. .

W: Well, it goes back. Prior to going in,. service I was under the

impression that all white people were the same, that they felt

superior to all other human beings.

T: In other words it's white supremacy?

W: Yes, definitely so. And if you were not white, you were no one.




7 -














LUM 148A 8







I felt this way even the day I was drafted. I went in

service with this feeling.

T: How did you come about with this feeling?

W: Igrew up in me because I had saw' I had never been able to

do the things that anyone else could do. I lived with it.

And after having been drafted to service and I lived with

the white man and I noticed that his language was the same

as mine, he thought the same as I thought, and actually

there's no difference, you know. And he looked at me like

I was a man, not like I was an Indian, you know. You're

one of the guys, you know. And the longer I remained in

service the more I become acquainted with this feeling, and

I liked this feeling of being part of the gang, see. I guess

perhaps this is one of the reasons, additional reason I

remained in service as long as I diybecause I like the

feeling of being wanted or being part of something that

was worthwhile. And over the years I've come to realize

that perhaps the people back where I grew up, they're

the same people as these people I'm living with in service.

And maybe they will change someday, and I had hoped for

this. And when I came home I noticed changes had been














LUM 148A 9







made. And I was proud to see these changes and I hope

it continues.

T: Mr. Wilkins, you mentioned, not directly, but the fact

that all races were together in the military. This is

integration. Do you think integration was good in our

schools? It came about for society, I mean, to help

maybe human understanding. How do you feel? Was it a

mark toward betterment or was it backwardsdO-b ( A

W: In my opinion it was one of the greatest things that ever

happened, because it descends back to something that...I

know very little about the Bible but I believe in the

Bible up to a point. And itA4 thaet all men are created

equal--well, I don't know where this came frombut I do

know that men can work together, .&ey can live together

and they can share ideas together, and you can't very

well...in order for people to do these things together

they must live together. They must associate together.

You can't do things through a fence, and when I grew up

there was a fence here and now this fence is being torn

down slowly, and I'll be glad when it's gone. And had

there never been integration in the service or anywhere

then there would have always been this fence.














LUM 148A 10







T: Then you're saying integration is the reason for the

fence being torn down?

W: Most definitely so.

T: Well, it's good that you are seeing a change for the better,

but we do have to realize, I guess, that people don't change

overnight--or do they?,Kas it been this marked?

W: It takes time. It'll take a lot of time for this fence to

be torn completely down. As a matter of fact, I think now

that we're on the fence I think maybe it's just got a deep

crease in it up to this point. It's not down yet because

you still have the old-timers that didn'tbelieve in integration.

Jhey grew up this way. It stems from their parents and their

parents before them. And until, uh it's gonna take a lot

of time. It's gonna take more educae'on, more religion. It's

gonna take a lot of time and a lot of work to get this fence

completely down.

T: Let's see. You said you had how many children?

W: Seven.

T: Seven. And did they go through ...most of them, while they

were in school, went through integration of some sort or

another, is this right?

W: No. You see, I went up to...I'm sorry.













LUM 148A 11







T: That's all right. No, you were going to explain maye

whyhey didn't feel the integration.

W: Well, you see, my kids never had the feeling that I have

because they never knew about this feeling. My oldest son

was born in '46, I went off to service in '45. All of my

kids went to military schools and there there was integration.

4iL4hey never knew, they never had the feeling of segregation.
0f
They never knew it all their lives. I never bothered to tell

them about it until we came home.', f course, my daughter,

she's up at the university now. I've got a son up there.

And they came home and they could not believe the stories

they were told by some of their friends. -r was brand new

to them. The wife and I had never told them what it was like

to live here hey did not know.

T: Do you think they were equipped, or did they adjust to it

rather readily, or was it pretty much of a shock to them?

W: They haven't adjusted to it yet!

T: Sad. To what degree do you think they felt it the most,

from your observation and talking as a father and so on?

W: Well, I think through observation,they don't see it now

like I saw it, of course. Like I said, the fence is

practically down now. You don't see the signs, you know,














LUM 148A 12







in the bus stations and the movies and these other places.

These signs are gone.

T: But you can be made to feel it, I know.

W: Yes. I still see them when I walk in there. I see them

even though they're not there because I watched them through

my entire childhood. They're still there as far as I'm con-

cerned. I feel it, but my children, fortunately, has never

had to go through with this. And I've explained to them

since we've been home that I can remember this a remember

that, and they say, "Well, Daddy, you never told us before."

Well, I says, "Well, if I had never came back here to live

you would have never known."

T: Well, do you feel that they have grown for...by having been

spared coming up in this kind of environment, perhaps being

A 9/ military and traveling with different people and associating

that they've benefited better than they would have in their

home environment?

W: Oh, most definitely so. I'm so proud that they have never

known or did not know the life that we grew up in here,

myself and-my friends and I. Because when you are depressed

by any reason, you cannot do your best in anything. If you














LUM 148A 13







are a depressed student, you don't learn as well. I

was a depressed student. I was depressed in my work,

I was depressed when I went to school, I was depressed.

I grew up in a very depressed atmosphere. My children

never knew this. They made better students. They made

better grades than I ever made. Well, perhaps they're

smarter than I am, I hope. /

T: Well, I'm sure they're still chips off the old block,

so to speak.

W: X they're great.

T: But times do change from generation to generation, but as

you said, not overnight. I've met one of your children,

maybe another, I'm not sure. But I do know Debbie, she's

quite a lovely girl. You mentioned some of her activities

in the Indian...is it through the...I think they're...the

club on the school, they changed the name to the American

Indian Association where it had been the Lumbee Student

Association. Istin this area where she's involved in

working, or in all areas?

W: In all areas. She's made several trips, one out to the

Dakotas, two to Oklahoma, one to New York. She's been

to South America. Actually, the program she's involved














LUM 148A 14







in is being sponsored by the Methodist Association, but

it's working with youth and it has to do with the Indian

movement program. But she's really enjoying the work,

and she seems to really love this type of work, and I hope

that she continues when she finishes.

T: What is their major objective? Is it to get the Indian

across, just to get people to know? In other words, to

meet and to mingle and associate and let them draw their

own

W: To be recognized as a person, as a people, and to be given

equal rights as everyone is given. And I think this is

all we want, just to be recognized as a people.

T: Let me ask you about this as if you care to comment. I

know that we do have a group who has pulled away from the

so-called name Lumbee and has taken a more militant stand

for betterment. At least, they maintain they want better-

mentAfor the Indians. How do you view this group and the

way they're going about it, if youcare to comment on this?

W: I prefer not to comment on that.

T: OK. Let's see, as we were talking about Debbie, do you

think the programs that she's involved in i erhaps,..

maybe it might be slower in some of the things that we

get, you know, progress, on the move, so to speak. But














LUM 148A 15







do you think that these things will be more worthwhile

and lasting than, say, something that comes fly-by-the-

night, I guess?

W: Oh, definitely so, because they're going through this and I"vctC

they're looking at it from an educational viewpoint, and

they're dealing...

T: It's a scholarly thing, i et(')tse4 -

W: Yes, scholars,AMd thispmakes things everlasting. When

you look at something from an intelligent viewpoint, and

you try to work these things out over a period of time.

Nothing, you can't really rush into anything--perhaps with...

maybe you can fry an egg, fast, you know. /6 4l ,

T: That's not always goodA, as e fast eggs...

W: This is true. But when you're dealing with human beings,

you don't rush. You can't change a person's mind, you

can't change their will power, you can't change their way

of thinking overnight. You can show a person where they're

absolutely wrong, but if they have believed for a long period

of time in a different direction, it'll take time. And I

think this is probably what we're dealing with now. We're /it' )

Ahj trying to reach out and let people know where we stand, and

this is gonna take time, and I think the programs that she's














LUM 148A 16







involved in will do this over a period of time.

T: In other words, it promotes understanding rather than

getting people stirred up, and this is what it's gonna

take...

W: Understanding is what it will take, not hostility.

T: But yet the'hostility, as you were saying, you see the

white signs. How do you deal with this 44-*--- (I

t anski, you may not be consciously aware. How can you

look at a white man and not really hate him as such?

W: -'E don't deal with it, I try to understand it. Some of the

finest human beings I've ever met was guys that I never

knew before, because...well, there's times, and especially

in the Army, and situationswhere you really get to know

an individual, and these are the kind of people that we

have all over the world. You just...you don't get a chance

to meet many of them in a lifetime, but they're all basically

good people. And as for my feeling about the times gone by,

Sbut I have learned to live with it. But...

T: In other words, you don't dwell or live in the past but

you recognize it's there, right?

W: I recognize...it has been there. It will always be there














LUM 148A 17







in my mind. But I'm willing to forget it if I possibly

could and be glad to forget it, if-we.can get that darn

fence all the way down.

T: Do you think he white man is coming to any better grips

with the situation wicin himself? Y(u have to recognize

that perhaps even at best you can say he's wrong in his

treatment of the American Indian from the beginning, and

even our schools are reflecting) /rom the first grade

we .you were taught and I was taught that Columbus dis-

covered America, which is malarkey because the Indians

were here. They were the first Americans, and America a--

was discovered. So we're having to go back and revamp and

reassess some of the things that's been propaganda all

along. But to read in history.and to see how it's been -

slanted, have you felt or seen any of this in your children's

life and their educational programs?

W: No, not really. There has been times when questions were

asked, well, daddy this and daddy this, you know. And

someitmes you just don't, you don't have the answer. You

don't have the answer. And this is the sad part of it. This

is the sad part. It's like we've all run into the situation---














LUM 148A 18







perhaps not you, but I--with the new change of the arith-

metic. The kid comes home, you can't even help him, you

know.

T: Yes, I went through...my eighth grader tutored me through

that course.

W: True, and... tAWk .,.

T: r )e was in eighth grade, you know, school, and he knew more

about it than I did.

W: When the time comes that the parent can't help the child

with a situation, it's kind of a sad situation. But then,

my father and mother could not help me with the problem

that we had. Their parents could not help them.

T: I think it's a wise person that recognizes this in a parent's

position because you do want so to help them and at the same

time you feel so helpless, but I think we have to hand it to

our young adults. I don't know if you agree or not, I want

to see if you do, because a lot of times they come to us

with problems, but if we get out of the way, generally they

can work them out.

W: This is true.

T: Sometimes as parents we can get in the way. Now, I know
I have one entering college this fall and anotherthat is
I have one entering college this fall and another~that is













LUM 148A 19







entering high school. But it was amazing to me because

I didn't...when integration came I J4 no rules

whatever, and they had friends among all races and it seemed

to me that they adjusted a lot better than I did in the

situation because here I was listening to the news and the

newspaper and the man down the street.and so fort .And the

politicians and they all blew it up and exaggerated i and

tAt I thought I really had something to worry about. But this

didn't bother the kids. If you could see them...

W: Sometimes they're smarter than the grown-ups, you know.

T: Yeah.

W: They're smarter than...but I think that C0 0

T I try at times to detect prejudice, I mean, in my children.

If it's there, I want, you know...because I dp think it's

a handicap. Do you feel this is truefRi'o be proud of what

you are. Now, I know my father is three-fourths Cherokee

and my mother's English. And many times he's told me, well,

S1a1 -you took your mother's coloring) because when

I would go...when he would go into white communities, often

he said he was called nigger. And just as you said you were

glad your children were spared a lot of the things that you

grew up with...

W: True.













LUM 148A 20







T: Again he told me this, and I know I o 7 /4A 4L L

summer camp program, and he said, well, don't go down there

talking Indian because it won't help you. So I never

really, you know, waved it or anything. But can you see
iMft&& Of
a change that thelAmerican Indian is on the up, so to speak,

and.he's becoming a person that's really the hero of today,

to be respected?

W: Well, I think the world is beginning to realize that there

is an Indian. They've been here for a long time but...

T: And it's just as American as...

W: They're one of the minority groups, so to speak, that has

never been really recognized because they're small in num-

ber as compared with some of-e other minority groups.

They're small in number and they never really spoke up

for themselves. Now, there's reasons for this. In order 7 6 .

L -L4t,to speak up and be heard, you must be intelligent) /ou

must be an educated man. Now, speaking now strictly for

the Lumbee Indians in this area, twenty-five, fifty years

ago, we had very few educators. Very few. We had this

one small college.

T: Right. You're saying among the Lumbee people.

W: This is true. Now, I cannot speak for the other races of














LUM 148A 21







people or the other Indians in other areas, strictly for

the Lumbees. We had a very small college and very few of

our people did, in fact, finish it--you know, get themselves

a college education. Well, this thing has changed. The

college is larger. We have more kids going to college now,

and they're fanning out in the different walks of life, and

this is what it's gonna take. It's gonna take education

along with religion in order to get this fence down we were

talking about earlier, and this, of course, is gonna take

time.

T: What aspect does religion play in this taking the fence

down, specifically in your mind? Religion is a varied/and

a wide field. Is it n S or what is it

-- when you say religion?

W: Well, I think...this is part of it, love thy neighbor like

thyself, but I think religion basically makes a person an

honest person. If you're educated and you're honest, then

you can look at things from a wide-open, you know, with an

open mind. And if you're honest andkyou're intelligent

and you will accept these things as they are and not try

to sweep them under the rug because yourkgrandfather swept

them under the rug. Now this is what's happened here in














LUM 148A 22







this particularhfor hundreds of years. If it is good

enough for grandfather, it's good enough for me. And if

grandfather didn't do this then I won't do this. If father

didn't do this, I won't do this.

T: In other words,hit was, apathy. Just sort of sit back and

let things go on.

W: .This is true, this is true. But this is not true anymore.

I know one family today that don't live too far from here

where the grandfather and grandmother, oh, they remember

they day well, when...oh, long before my time. But their

children, their grandchildren which is one of, uh...the

gentleman now, he's about thirty-eight years old, a good

friend of mine. And I don't believe there's a prejudiced

bone in his body, but his grandparents today, they expect

a colored man to bow his head to them when they pass him

on the street. But...and they, by the way, are not educated

people. -B4 probably perhaps, fifth or sixth graders.

But it's-their parents before them that caused them to feel

this way. But as time moved on, their children got more

education. Their grandchildren got even more. And then

as a possibility, they're religious somewhat. And you













LUM 148A 23







combine the two together, religion and education, and

you've got yourself a pretty nice guy. And he'll look

at things with an open viewpoint.

T: You certainly have to recognize that if you believe in

God, or call it what you like, that there is a Supreme

Being...

W: True. -~-
tJA& CM-^tt'; r'
T: And that we were all created by ,

W: By this Supreme Being.

T: Right. And as such, we have to live together whetherp. )

it's almost as someone has said, if we don't hang together

we hang separately, so to speak. Because we've got so

many other problems in the world that we need to unite.

W: Oh, this is true.

T: What are some of the problems that you see that's facing

us all, Indians.as well as whites, blacks, polka-dots,

4/L

W: Well, uh...

T: Right now they say we're in an energy crisis and when I

go.. seems likeevery other gas tank I pull up to say they're

out of gas, but...














LUM 148A 24







W: I think right now...

T: Comment on some of these current things that you...?

W: I think right now if we could get Watergate out of the

way we'd all ...

T: I think Watergate's just about flooded, don't you?

W: It will be as soon as the football game starts.

T: Yeah. I have said that, ur, for the truth to come out,

I know, is important, but I was just as soon about forget

it. I'm listening for it for so long et it seems like

they're giving a runaround. How do you feel about that?

W: Well, I...

T: Do you think the truth will ever emerge, really? And has

this stuff not gone on right on, /i/ .u.- politics?

W: Even if the truth does emerge, I doubt if you and I would

be able to recognize it. This thing is so involved.

T: And it gets more and more.

W: And it's so involved now, there's so many people involved

in it, there's been so many lies told. I assume theve-. XJA

4hvee-been lies. The people that's involved in it are

calling them lies, until I wouldn't know the truth if it

came out.














LUM 148A 25







T: Well, I was under the impression, and correct me if I'm

wrong, because I just, you know, somewhere thought that

this went on most of the time. I'm not sure about the

wire-bugging thing because electronics and technology

has improved, so has the devices for crime, so to speak,

if that's what you want to use it for. But is it not

always sort of been to try to find out what's going on

in your opponent's camp, a theme in the political arena,

so to speak? Sort of a recognized, or it has been a

recognized thing that's just part of the structure?

W: Well, I think that the average Mr. and Mrs. America

was never aware of this, that it had always been so until

this Watergate thing. And "i1 they tell us that this thing

has been going on for years, that you've had two people

in the ring, you know. You've had the Republican and the

Democrat and they've been at each other's throats and

everybody's spying on everybody. But the average Mr. and

Mrs. America didn't know this, wasn't aware of this until

Watergate broke. And now they say, oh, well, the Democratsl

they did it to the Republicans in the last campaign and the

Republicans did it to them before, and who really knows,

you know, unless you're really involved in this thing?













LUM 148A 26







T: Do you think it would go as far or should go as far--even

if the president knew about it--do you think it should go

as far as his impeachment as has been talked?

W: No, I don't think impeachment would settle...in the first

place, if we impeach the president, who's gonna take his

place? The vice president?

T: He's already / .uW&&4

W: '. L under investigation, see. So if we don't have a

vice-president, who's gonna take his place? And I think

it's better--this is my personal opinion, of course...

T: This is what we want.

W: ...is to.. // iLs_ flI really don't know. I really

don't know.AI d believe that the president was aware

of this thing initially. But I believe he was informed of

it after it had happened and he did nothing about it because,

uh, I don't know why.

T: fj t have to clean house, too, I guess.

W: This is true.

T: All the way down, probably.

W: And he knew it was coming sooner or later, and now it's took

place.














LUM 148A 27







T: / probably if he was informed, he knew he couldn't run the

government by himself. That's just about what it's

amounted to. If it keeps on going it looks like every-

body's gonna be out.

W: I've lost track of how many of his Cabinet members he's

replaced up to this point, but I know there's been quite

a few of them.

T: Yeah. I know, too. I stopped looking at it--though, well,

I think I did tune into it yesterday or maybe the day before,

and found out Agnew was for something when he was governor,

it was following him on into the White House, but...

W Well, I tell you one thing, I think the hurting part of

this is not to the present administration, but it's to our

young people in our universities today that had ambition

and hopes of/being involved in government at a later date,

once they finished their education. And now this may change

their mind entirely.

T: Sort of sicken them.

W: Yes, they don't want to get involved in anything like this,

you know. And this, I think, will definitely hurt us in

the long run.

T: Someone has mentioned that the Lumbee people as a group














LUM 148A 28







seems to be the most politically oriented of thelsome,

I don't know, goodness, how many tribes or groups of

Indians that you can think about, but certainly one of the

most involvedpolitically speaking. Do you see this as

so?
i
W: Yes. Of course, I haven't traveled aroundf*lthe other

Indian areas.and I don't know just how much they are

involved in government. But I do know that the people in

this locale are involved and I think that it's a wonderful

thing.

T: Do you understand or do you would care to speculate why

you think they are involved more than, say, other groups?

W: Well, this is another way of reaching out. This is another

way of letting the people know who you are. I think this

is why our young people is trying to get involved into

politics and into government, because if they are they can

do something for their people, and they can let people know

who they are. And I think this is probably one of the

reasons why our young people are getting involved into

politics and in :the government.

T: I think we mentioned before Watergate, what was the other

current issue? The energy crisis. From a man's point of














LUM 148A 29







view, how do you see this? We hear that the gas shortage,

what-have-you, is it...do you seeit at legit or is it...

are the companies holding back? What do you believe? I

mean we can all speculate. It costs nothing.

W: Well, just aboutkwhat I get from the newspapers. It's the

same old story. They say that the big companies are trying

to force the little companies out of business. This may

be true, I don't know just how they plan to do this if this

is the truth, you know. But this one thing I have noticed,

the big companies have lots of gasoline, and the small

companies, I know of two companies in this locale that's

completely out of business now. They no longer have

gasoline. And if this is the truth, this seems to be...if

this is holding true throughout the United States, then

there's a lot of small companies possibly out of business

by now. And the big companies do have gasoline and as of

yet it has not been rationed in our particular area. d 11*t

I understand from the papers that there are places on the

East Coast particularly where it's been rationed, even with

the large companies. But fortunately, up to this point,

we've still got enough to run our two-twenty-fives.













LUM 148A 30






V
T: How is it gonna affect our country, though, if they keep

holding back? I meam, society as a whole. We re talking

about on a national scale.

W: Gee, I really don't know. I don't know how it will affect

our country as a whole. I really don't.

T: I'm thinking about with cold weather coming on, some, you

know, the sources of heat and so on. They talk about...

some schools were closed last year because of the lack

of the source of the energy to heat and all this. I'm

wondering if there is a stopping point. Are they gonna

let up if they are holding back? It's just another strategy

of politics, so to speak, or something like this.

W: Well, tlfreJs a possibility that politics is involved in

this thing. As a matter of fact, I'm sure politics is

involved in this gas war, so to speak. But just how it

will affect us in the long run, I really don't know. I d0.J/

really, I don't think it's gonna ever reach this point

because we do have to get...the gasoline is available.

We may not have it here. at home, butwe have it in foreign

countries,Awe have it in Alaska) XAnd the gasoline and the

oil, the P-oil, so to speak, is available,and if and when














LUM 148A Wells, typist
-3( -

we need it I'm sure ... I feel relatively sure that it will be

made available to us.

T: You mentioned earlier that your family had anticipated or specu-

lated about settling in Alaska. How long did you stay there?

W: About forty-two months.

T: What specifically, one or two things that you might name, appeal

to you here? I mean,Afirst thing I think about it's awfully

cold up there.

W: This is true, but not as bad as one would imagine. The one thing

I like about Alaska is your summers are very short. You have

approximately :ninety days' summer. And during the summer months

everyone, but I mean everyone, gets out and enjoys this brief
and
ninety days. No one stays in the house anymorer-the old/the

young alike.

T: What's the temperature like '- L4.AJAL -w A

W: Oh, it'd range from 320 at night to around 500, 540

'in -; the day, which is a very, very warm day in Alaska. As a

matter of fact, when I left there on July, on August the first, '68,

it was fifty-four degrees2 that was the hottest day of the year.

I arrived in Seattle and it was 1010 in four hours, still in

winter clothing. So you can imagine. Well, anyway, ...

T: Air conditions 4A45 'Afc jU jJQU- 9Os oZ. ^1-eLe,

W: The thing I liked about Alaska is the closeness. In the winter-

time you're closed in for approximately nine months a year. I














LUM 148A
32
mean really closed in. And there's a constant chain of events

happeningbecause if people didn't do something closed in for a

long period of time, they'd go nuts. So for the ladies they have

bingo nights, they have ceramics, they have skiing, skating nights.

For the kids there's an abundance of things they can do. For

the men there's, there's ... fishing under ice; twelve, fourteen,

twenty inches of ice--drill you a little hole, do your fishing.

You've got your winter sports ...

T: Is it all like the picture shows, you just ...?

W: Oh, it's beautiful.



W: Um, huh m) d Xell, as a matter of fact, they've got an

1a U-L with a little motor on it, like a lawn mower, you know.

You crank it up, b-b-b-b-b-b, right down through the ice.

T: So you don't even have to ... it's an automatic cutter, right?

W: Almost. And they got different size blades--eight-inch, twelve-

inch holes. And you need a large hold for those big lake trout

ocassionally. But anyway ...

T: Sounds like great eating.

W: -And then there's the parties, too, you know. Everybody likes i a

good party. And there's an abundance of parties. Almost every ...

T: I take it you're a very social being g" OI ,_t_ C .

W: I love to socialize.

T: Could you stay at home every day of the week? nAow long before you

gett e v b w

W: Ol, let's make it four days! I Bi-become very bored with myself.














LUM 148A

33


T: That's what I was thinking--that you would probably get bored

in Alaska, but the way you talk about it and what's happening, I

see that it seems to be the place to go for something. Do they

still live in igloos up there5 O- CX '4 A ---o7

W: No, this is only the Alaskans in the very far north, up around

the Nome area and they only live in them for a very brief period

of time. They go out to fish for seal. And in order to get out

of the north winds they build an igloo. They do their fishing

there for two days, three days and they go away and they don't

come back until fishing time againwhich may be ninety days,

120 days, maybe five months. They know at what time the first

seals and the regular seals run)and they go back to this igloo.

It may be covered in snow, but they dig down, they dig it out and

they live there for very brief periods of time. Other than that

they live in regular homes.

T: Excuse me, just a minute, I want to turn this tape but I have a

question I want to ask you and I'll wait till ...

END SIDE 1.












LUM 148A

34

T: This is Side(of the interview with Mr. Daniel Webster.,W-i-l-k-e-?

W: i-n-s.

T: i-n-s. Wilkins. We were talking about Alaska and I wanted to

ask you ..v this summer I took a course in American Indian Studies

and we got into some of the northern tribes, I think the Alo-

gonquin or something. Do you see a relationship or close kinship

maybe or even ... there might even be some intermingling mixture

of .., marrying, breeding, this kind of thing between the Indian

and what we call the Eskimos, so to speak.

WV Thexs a resemblance and ...

T: Ahis came up in class and as you go through the material you see

the, you get up into the colder regions.

W. Ther's a resemblance in skin texture.

W. In what way?

W: ... and the hair, body structure, most definitely so. Short,

and I think probably the tallest Eskimo I saw was not over 5'8".

They usually stand 5'5", 5'7", the male. The female's around

5', 5'1", 5'.2". There's not as great a i44 Ef-nee in height

between male and female Alaskans as there is in the white or the

Indians of this part, this particular area where your average male

stands around 5'9", average female 5'2", 5'5'. I'm just using these

figures because I don't know what the statistics are. But they

only vary about 2.1/2V3 inches between male and female in height.

Andtthis is through out the area. I noticed this quite well be-

cause I had ... we maneuvered up right up on the Baltic Sea.

T: Um, huh.














LUM 148A

35


W: Afp in the Nome area here there's a large tribe in that area. And

we lived there with them for about thirty days on two different

occasions. And this I noticed about them, you 4 w, as compared

with our people here. Short and dark, straight black hair.


T: Do you see them as a, evidently you do, as a hospital, warm type

human being generally speaking as a whole?

W: Very warm, very gentle, and they're just nice people. I enjoyed

being near them, talking with them.

T: Do you think there is a misconception)generally speaking or did

you find it different from what you thought when you first went

there)or had formed any opinions or impressions or had any, you know,

exposure to even thinking about what you might find?

W: No, I had never gave it much thought. I went to Alaska in '48 on

an inspection tour. And I heard several stories about the hunting

and fishing. And that's the only reason I wanted to go up there.

I knew very, very little about the people up there. I read very

little about them, if any. And the only thing I'd ever saw about

the Alaskan people was the movies, you know. And I had never

gave it any thought.

T: Speaking of movies, how do you feel the movie industry up till

maybe recently or evethen, well, how do you feel the movie

industry has/ yt the American Indian? Has it been pretty

true to form? What can you comment on that?

WY Unfair.














LUM 148A

36

T: In wWt wayd7o cu, / '&a(

W: In almost every way.

T: Well, go on ...

W: Well, they have always ...

T: I know what you mean.

W: ... they have always shown the Indiarn as a dirty, in most cases,

dirty, uneducated man, savage by nature, a thief at night, hostile,

in almost every instance, a scavenger--you name it and this is

the way the American Indian has 1 always been labelled as far as

Warner Brothers and your other big companies are concerned.

T: Do you see that this influences the self-concept of not only, well,

the Indian children's self-concept, but it also impresses on other

races the idea of where we get the false ideas about the American

Indian.

W: You know, I've had ...I had kids, and especially in the army, you

know, had never saw an Indian and my kids would come home from

school and say, this is, this is little Johnny Brown, you know?
me
And he metlin school today and he asked me who, I told I was an

Indian, pThey had never met a real live Indian. And they, the

only thing they about -- is what they see in the movies.

And my kids are supposed to be hostile...

T: They want to know where your warpaint is.

W: Oh, yes. And they're supposed to carry a knife and supposed to

steal at night and things of this nature, see? But it wasn't the

kids fault. He saw this in movies. And for this reason alone












LUM 148A

37

and not only speaking for the Indians themselves the same has

happened to other minority groups. They have been downgraded

very much so by the movie industry.

T: Well, it's coming up now. I notice that they're rebelling,even

the people that didn't come out and say they're Indian,like

Marion Brando and different ones who are in a position to turn down

an Oscar. He's been given three or four, but even the gesture

still that he wouldn't accept an award in a country that still

treated the first Americans in such a way, not >giving them

fishing rights in one place, and this kind of thing. And I un-

derstand so many of our entertainers, here comes, oh, what's

the guy's name that sings so well that I like, I'm trying to

think, we$l, Johnny Cash has got some Indian blood in him ...

W: ________

T: That's one. And Ray Price. And even, I saw Oral Roberts come

out with a program and he announced that he was part Indian. So

people are beginning to stand up and say, look, I'm Indian and

it just counts for something. But before it was, you never really

thought about it. It didn't, wasn't talked about Ay C L 'J- /'i- 7

W:/ I think perhaps the movies have a lot to do with this y. They

had, if you had Indian blood in you, your supposed to be ashamed

of i1twenty-five, thirty years ago. But today they're not

ashamed of it anymore. As a matter of fact some of the old movies

they're bringing back, you know, to fill in space--the cowboy and

Indian movies--he shoots oAe, a five Indians fall. It's a big













LUM 148A

38

laugh, you know. And my daughter called me not so long ago. She

said, "Daddy," she says, I says, "I saw this movies back when I

was a boy." The three musketeers or something. I don't remember.

She says, "Is this the kind of trash that you watched when you

were a kid? And you enjoyed this?" She said, "It's a mockery."

She says, "It's phony." I says, "Well, I didn't know any different

at the time and I thought this was real live entertainment"

T: But you can see it now. ant you?

W: Oh, you know. But it's like everything else, you know. You're led

to believe these things and you got people that makes movies. They

got to be intelligent people. And this has just got the way it

had to be for a kid, you know, of six, seven years old. They be-

lieved almost anything.

T: Right, u% < *-U.,J a, pA ."."", 6MC

W: So when little Johnny followed my son home from school he had found

himself a real live Indian friend. Little Johnny don't know. He

saw it in the movie. And I think the movies has been very un-

just in some respects to the minority groups in America.

T: There was a story of one guy, Ira Hayes, I think he's supposed to

raise the flag on Hiroshima, something like this. Came home a

hero, but turned out to be a drunk. And some guy wrote a book

and I can't remember the man's name but it's "Nobody likes a

Drunken Indian." You work in an ABC store. You sell liquors

and alcohol of different, well, / gobelow and up. How

do you see alcohol and the Indian?














LUM 148A

39

W: No different from no one else.

T: Someone has made the comment that they can't drink this firewater.

Does that go back to the propaganda ...?

W: It's the same old story. Let's assume you had two dogs, you know.

Twin dogs, if there is such a thing, you know, just a like.

You take one of these dogs arid tie him to a tree and feed him

once a day. Take the other dog inside the home, give him his

bath, give him a shampoo; he rides with you in an automobile.

Now I ask you six months from now which one of those dogs would

bite you first?

T: The one who had been probably deprived.

W: This is true. This is true. If a man has the freedom to buy what

he chooses to buy regardless what it is. The Indians in Oklahoma

I know this to be a fact because I was there, very briefly, I

was there to school, a four-week school. They could not buy, 'course

Oklahoma's a dry county at the time, but they could buy beer.

Not a dry county, dry state. He could not go in and buy so he

had to send someone after it. Now if he was caught consuming it,

they'd put him in jail because he was an Indian,he's not supposed

to drink in the first place. As a result he drank too much.



W: He drank too much. And this town here--- I can remember when

the whiskey was made in the country, everybody went to the country,

bought the whiskey, they came to town to drink it. You know.
now
And/they come to town buy their whiskey and they go to the













LUM 148A

40

country to drink it. As a result you can walk these streets any-

time you may see a drunk occasionally like you'll find in any

other town. I can remember on the weekend when there were ten

or twelve drunks. It's the same old story---leave me be and I'll

leave you be.

T: I don't think I've ever seen a drunk person in Pembroke on the

street. I may have at someone's home or something like this, but

it was never ... not on the street. And I've been here alm tO Ou.,

six years.

W: They've got the freedom to buy as they please. They can drink it

where they wish and they don't take advantage of it.

T: Well, there's something about this. I know, what do you think

it is. It's not just Indian, it's human nature. I can give out of

Cigarettes and die for one. But I can go buy them and lay them

down on the counter and I'll go on about my business just knowing

they're ...

W: Knowing they're there.

T: ... Maybe not, I'll say, well, I'm going to go get a cigarette.

I'm just going to, you know.

W: Just knowing they're there.

T: Just knowing you can have them like you say keeps a lot of people

from buying when probably they would. And this leads me to something

else--or young people say that we have our, our thing, so to

speak,IMtis alcohol e--our adult vice, if you want to call it that

44en though it gets down pretty low sometimes in the bracket,













LUM 148A

41

Pot and marijuana, pot's the slang, I think, for it. How do you

see this affecting society? They maintain that it's no worse

than our liquor and we're getting cirrhosis of the liver and all

this stuff. a0 6
W: Well, I

T: Ifonelof your youngsters, I'm saying one of your adult youngsters

came to you with this or you suspected, how would you deal with

it? What would be your comments about it? a/tj ed U

alcohol, that's your thing, AI Y". yu (/7 .

W:# I really don't know. I read an article not so long ago about,

this doctor had wrote) And it was some, I don't know whether

it was a series of tests they had took or some type of survey

or something with marijuana, strictly marijuana, nothing else,

And his viewpoint that marijuana was no more harmful and in some

cases not as harmful as alcohol and that it was not even habit-

forming, Xot so much as alcohol would be.

T: Not as much as regular tobacco I've read someplace.
these
W: Yes. So I don't know. I know a very little bit about /' dif-

ferent types of things. I hope I'm never confronted with the

situation. But if I am, I hope that I'll be able to sand do

the right thing.

T: Well, as a parent, I guess that's all we hppe on any issue.

W: This is true.

T: Do you see a time when perhaps in going back again to making

it available, forbidden fruit sometimes looks, you know, just the














LUM 148A

42

fact that they want to show or express independence Yerhaps

it being legalized ror controlled in the way the alcohol, alcohol

beverage control. We know that there's a certain age that goes
to
and gets it or at least/the man who he faces or buys it from they

might send in)a younger person be- consume it. But still we

know it doesn't have batter/acid or OPnQjinb rc or what-have-you (A

It's something that's pure with the right chemicals in it. And

I'm saying legalized rom the standpoint that it's inspected or

controlled in the way that alcohol is. Could you see that this

would be a solution in any way?

V: I think Lthat marijuana will definitely be legalized in the near

future. They're working on it. Of course, you've got certain

groups, certain religious groups that will fight it day and night.

And you've got other educated. groups that will fight it, but I think

that in the near future marijuana will be legalized perhaps in a

control, like you say, control form, you know. But I think it

will be legalized.

T: Let me ask you this. How do you feel about abortion? It has been

legalized in many states. I'm not sure it's been implemented.

This goes with the Wonen's Lib and you having daughters and so on

and thinking about, well, with this, if I A was presented with

an unwanted pregnancy so to speak. And then the women argue

that they should have control of the destiny of their body, so

to speak, or at least the choice. How do you feel about this?

Your own personal ...














LUM 148A

,> ) 43

W:* I believe that abortion should be legalized and especially in

!,the case of an unwanted or unwed mother and with, of course, the

mother's consent, the parents', which ever the case may be, or the

husband. I think that it should be legalized.

T: Because it seems if a woman wants an abortion she's going to get

it one way or the other. And sometimes with a butcher or what-

ever.

W: There's always a way. And if they don't make it legalized to

where they can go to a clinic that is capable of doing this

type of work, this type of surgery, they may do it and harm

themselves; have it done by some quack doctor or something. And

this has happened in many cases.

T: Let me ask you this if it'shot too personal (I fi ~ to If

you had a daughter who came to you and said, "Daddy, look,

well, you know,'ve missed two periods," or something like

this, "and I don't want to marry this guy and I want you to help

me with it." Would you consent to an abortion?

W: Well, first I'd discuss it with the wife and if they both agreed

andthought this was the right thing to do I think I'd go along

with it a hundred per cent.

T: How do you feel about people having children that is unwanted?

YPu know, they go ahead and go through with it because of

morals or religion or what-have-you ?

W: Well, it's unfair to the child because if the parents don't want

a child; well, there's another viewpoint there, too. Perhaps the














LUM 148A

44


child could be adopted out and fall into a good home, but then this

is a chance you're taking.

T: Right.

W: 4'n the case of a married couple having a child that is unwanted ,

I don't know, this would require even more thought. But to the

unwed mother I would go along with abortion one hundred per cent.

T: If your daughter or your son came to you and said, and this is

prevelant, especially larger cities, it may not have got, you

know, into Pembroke, but I read about it in the magazines and so

on and I know you've heard it in the r news, trial marriages and so

on. Say, look, daddy, I want to you know, get a license for

for a six months' trial marriage. I Do you think this is a good

thing? Would it decrease the divorce rate? Would it help society

or would it degrade it?

W: Oh, boy. I don't ... I really don't know.

T: I know that's a loaded one, but ...

W: This one is more than loaded. I never even give this a thought.

I've heard of wife-swapping and things ...but I don't know. I

never even give this a thought. I wouldn't even want to comment

on it.

T: poung people are, you know, going seemingly this way. ,I don't

know) If it works for them maybe, you know, it's okay, but I'm

not sure. I'm like you. It's a question mark. Perhaps history

will prove it out whether it be right or wrong or not. Listen,















LUM 148A

45

I'm really enjoying this interview. And I know I'm taking more
because
time than I intended to, '/ you're a very interesting person

to talk to and you've made some very wonderful contributions

in your views and so on. Is there anything that I haven't men-

tioned because it's hard to get everything in when you're talking

to a person or it's impossible almost, but something that maybe

you'd like to say about anything because this is one thing

about an interview like this we can jump back and forth if we

like; that you'd like to comment on around the American Indian

or just people in general?

W: No, I just, well, one comment thee-I hope that our people, and
Sin
I use the word, "our people,"/speaking about the Lumbee Indian--

the Indians as a whole--continues to drive for better education

and better understanding with their fellow man. And I think that

if we continue to do this that we'll get this fence down one day.
has got4;M'
I may not live long enough to see it, but this fence to

come down.

T: Well, I'm with you in that. I envision, I want to see that, if not /

as you say, in my lifetime I hope that, as someone else has said,

perhaps it will. As Robert Frost has said, nobody really

loves a wall anyway, and whether it's seen or unseen. I wanted to

ask you one more question and this is perhaps putting you on the
0
spot a little bit, If you had it in your power to do anything

and you were in the position o bring about any change or keep














LUM 148A

46

things as they are even, what would you do? What would you con-

sider the greatest need in our world today that you would change?

W: I'm glad you asked that question because we're going back to

integration. First they integrated the Army and this was Harry
-n\
S. Truman's decision through the Coness of course. And I think

it's one of the greatest decisions ever been made in the history

of my life, including the signing the Declaration of Independence.

But this was a great thing. And then they integrated the schools.

Now this was a force, this was a force integration.

T: So many people fought it.

W. Oh, most definitely so.
first
T: And w\t was your /. thought on it in fact?

W: Well, I had mixed thoughts. I really did. I had 1 very mixed

thoughts on it.

T: I think everybody probably did.

W: But it happened. And now that it has happened I think it's a
I'd
wonderful thing. But I think if I had the power / change the

religious people's way of thinking. Number one, the grown-ups, the

mature people is the people that runs our government, the people

that runs our towns, our cities, runs our nation. Now if the

grown-ups, if they are integrated, and let's integrate them i in

the churches. 'You go to a church which is segregated, but the

kids are forced to go to an integrated school. Now her's Mom

and Daddy sitting at their all-white church or in their all-black

church or all-Indian church, but little Johnny and little Mary















LUM 148A

47

has to go to an integrated school. Now if our churches were

integrated our nation would be integrated. But until such time

as the religious nucleus of our country, as long as it is segregated,

our country will remain segregated.

T: You know you've made a wonderful observation there that I've never

voiced. But I have this black friend who is a female. I can

go with her to a movie or out to eat and I don't feel any stigma

at all. But there's something about it, I've never been able

to ask her to go to church with me because I felt I would be, you

know, society's pressure would be so great that maybe I just

couldn't take it, you know.

W: But -er chid and your child could go to the same school.

T: Right. And we could eat together and visit together in each

other's homes, this kind of thing. And I've felt it. I've never,

as I've said, voiced it. And I don't think I've herad another

person say-it right out, but that's a wonderful observation.

And I think it's a great need.

W: I believe that the church is the heart of our society. And I'm f1 L4,

church man, I don't even go to church.

T: r understand what you're saying.

W: I'm not religious, but I believe that the church is the heart

of our society. If we integrate the churches the remainder of

our society will follow suit. YOu have to begin some place. So

begin at the head, 1I't begin at the foot. And our grammar














LUM 148A

48

grade schools is a way down there. Now we say this is the be-

ginning because this is our youth, but they're not responsible

for being down there. We put them there. The grown-up is the

man that runs the nation. Start upstairs and everything else will

follow suit.
there's
T: How do you feel today, you know,the movies and everything--/s nudity
tl you know;
and it's sex, sex, sex--have we overdone it? AWe're almost/held

back in school. Where should sex education beginAin your estimation?

Should it be in the home or should the schools stay out of it, Aj i

the churches come in or wot?

W: I think the schools, I think the schools should control, should

teach sex. The reason being, you have so many parents, my

parents for instance, they would have never discussed sex with

one of us, and there was seven of us.

T: The word just doesn't come out. If you do, you have spell it ) I CIt l'pt

W: And very quietly, you know. But the parent today is much wiser

and they think differently from what the parent did of twenty,

thirty years ago. They look at things more open-minded. Yet

we have young parents 4 today who would never discuss sex with

one of their young. So someone has to have the responsibility.

So we say let the teacher do it because she don't have any

feelings. This is not her child, you know. And I don't know

if this is fair to put this responsibility on the teacher. She's

there to teach the kid an education.

T: But there's many things involved in education.














LUM148A

49

W: Sex is a part of education.

T: It's a part of life.

W: Yes. 0 -':
t." Cy0 c.' Z L ) u '"
T: Do you see it in a li' .iu ... t"

W: Well, yes and no. This would depend on, I think this would probably

bring in an age group when you get involved in religion.

T: Maybe the young people ...

W: Yeah. But in schools, I think perhaps schools would probably be

the best, And another thing, too. there's some kids, once they

reach an age where they begin to understand sex, maybe they don't

want to listen to it from their parents. They had rather listen

to it from a schoolteacher or from a friend.

T: There is an age they go through where the parents are old fogies.

W: This is true. They stay away from their parents as much as pos-

sible. And this in some cases is just the right time--the twelve,

or fourteen, thirteen year-old. This is when they need it. They

should have got a touch of it even before then in my opinion. But

by the time a girl, especially a girl, reaches the age of thir-

teen, she should know, she should have been told. And I-think

this is the right time. And let's let schoolteachers do it. I

think they're more qualified.

T: Well, I'm not sure whether they're qualified or not, but if you

give them the freedom to do it I'm sure they'll certainly put

forth their best. I know that ...

W. I think so too.














LUM 148A

50

T: ... that some have been kicked out, you Lnow, because L( you

said again the parents: not being enlightened, you know, feeling

that it was a hush-hush subject and therefore they shouldn't hear

it in school. But I'm glad to hear a parent say that because

that's my ambition is to teach and I've done some of it already.

Is there anything else you'd like to comment on?

W: No, I think I've said enough.

T: Well, you said it really well and I want to)tell you how much I

appreciate this interview.

: I'yve enjoyed it.

T: For Doris Duke's Foundation and for the University of Florida, and

then this tape will come back eventually to our own university

heretso that our children across the nation and our students and

even the parents can go hear real, live Indians tell their story.

And I want to thank you, Daniel Webster ...

W: Wilkins.

T: Wilkins.

W: Thank you.

T: Thank you very much.



END OF TAPE.





Full Text

PAGE 1

LUM 148 A DATE: August 10, 1973 INTERVIEWER: Marilyn Taylor (T' INTERVIEWEE: Daniel W. Wilkins (W) :r,vkL T My name is Marilyn Taylor, I'm recording for the Doris W: Foundation under the auspices of the University of Florida for the American Indian Oral Studies Program. Today is August 10th, 1973, and I am in Pembroke at the ..WC store with a gentleman who is employed here and I'll let him tell his name and his position and so on. Would you give us your full name and spell it, please. My name is Daniel W. Wilkins. employed here at the ABC store D-a-n-i-e-yW-i-1-k-i-n-s, as assistant manager. I'm T: Mr. Wilkins, how long have you been employed here? W: Three and one-half years. T: And what brought you--have you been here ever since we've had an ABC store? W: No I haven't. I came here four years ago. The store's been T: W: T: here approximately five years. breA_ Are you local as much as ,4D-/olf~ in Pembroke, mes-;tly? saying that you were born and 1:ai;fed Definitely so. Then you would--do you class yourself or identify with the Lumbee group,. the name Lumbee Indians 7 W: Yes, yes, Lumbee Indian. T: Where did you come from prior to having--or, in other words, you've lived here all your life but you were employed at a different place than here. 1

PAGE 2

INTERVIEWER: Taylor (T) INTERVIEWEE: Wilkins (W) LUM 148 A W: No, I was drafted into the service when I was 18 years of age. This was in 1945 and from then until four years ago I was here and there. ,..--..., I retired from~ service four years ago and returned here to live. T: What branch of~ service were you in? W: With the )dr ,B'orne ;Yrlfantry. T: So you're a career man? W: Yes, I was. T: Are you married? W: Yes I am. T: And who did you marry. W! 71u~ ,4-,,,,.d (/ Ray Johnson. T: she local or was she from out of this area? W: Yes, she grew up here. T: And how many children do you have? W: Seven. T: I think names are interesting. Could you give us the names--a rundown on them? W: Yes. My oldest child is 26. His name is ~...JL~. My second oldest is Roger Dale. My third oldest is my only daughter, Deborah Sue. My fourth oldest is Daniel Webster, Jr. This was supposed to be the last. And next, of course, is little Michael and then my baby, of course, Craig. 2

PAGE 3

LUM 148 A INTERVIEWER: Taylor (T) INTERVIEWEE: Wilkins (W) T: Daniel Webster, that has a famous sound to it. W: Yes, I don't know how I happened to get hooked with that one, T: Well I think it certainly has -the sound of intelligence or ring W: of, uh, something about a dictionary. Do you understand any of that? Oh, I don't know anything~bout that. grandfather. His name was ~Webster, of I got this from my course, and I 1 ve been teased about it-.;many times, how it sounded so dignified .__ T: How did you find it in~ service)as race relation~ as an Indian' /id you find there was any discrimination there? W: There was quite a bit of discrimination initially. In other words from 1945 to 1953 there was a feeling of discrimination, not directly to me, but to other races that I was fortunate enough to serve with-fiChinese and others.--Puerto Rican. But in 1953 when the service became totally integrated, then, of course, it eased the tension some what and things were better all the way around. v T Did you find in giving--when you had to give identification just maybe in general conversation and socializing with men or maybe even women, when the fact came up that you were a Lumbee Indian was this a mystery as to maybe the origin and so on and did you find yourself explaining anything about the, oh, where the Lumbee 1 s came from? W: No, this never happened to me directly. Usually I was asked, or if the situation came up of ''What is your race", I just said 11 Indian 11 And there was never any question about that. 3

PAGE 4

Lu}! 148 A INTERVIEWER: Taylor (T) INTERVIEWEE: Wilkins (W) tv~ T: Has there ever in--I believ~,f don't think we got it on tape--your age. How old are you? W: Forty-seven. T: Forty-seven. And these things we want to bring out in~ the open if they're there, with bitterness or without, whatever the true emotion of the true feeling is. Did you eve5have felt discriminated against because you were an Indian or are an Indian? W: Never while in service, no. T: Where then? W: Here at home. T: Could you share it out and tell you had. some of that with us? Because we do want to bring /U"Jf&us som~;f6/f the situation or ~experience~~ W: Well there's a many a such situations of--if you had lived here as long as I have, of course you'd understand this, but for instance, the movies were always segregated, the shopping centersportions of the shopping centers--the area where the food was being served, for instance, was segregated, and at one time there was signs posted all over town--not this town--never in PembrokeLumberton, Red Springs, Maxton, the other small towns and areas, ''white only", "white only", "white only". T: These are all within a ten or 12, 15 mile radius of where we are today ~'11'. Pembroke ( / W: Most definitely so. And it's especially true for a small town 4

PAGE 5

LUM 148 A INTERVIEWER: Taylor (T) INTERVIEWEE: Wilkins (W) T: W: T: which is only about 12 miles from here, Red Springs, I've heard a great deal of talk about it. Why--you started to something about an Indian, go ahead with that. Well, it's just that an Indian, and the colored never had a chance in this particular town. As a matter of fact, there's still a certain portion of the town that's still segregated, But yet the population is seeminglz, 4 you go throug~tow1!J you can see a great deal of/lack people, white, but I've never ~ee~articularlylrace conscious until I got with this program and it seems like you notice, well the potential interviewees that you know, maybe can get or something of this nature and you become conscious in that concept. But there 1 ~always been different races that lived there) have there not., JO-d. ll~ / W: --e&r j!S far back as I know, yes; /or many, many years. T: When you would go to Red Springs, how did you feel when you'd see these signs for "white only", really? I mean you can describe the emotion. W: Well it's kind of hard to describe, It give you a feeling of a.. having been left out orAfeeling of not being wanted in your own home) or 3-, your home town, or your own home county, the place where you lived, And yet you state, your fel t 1 you were contributing, through your family, as much to the town as anyone else in so far as spending your money there, buying your goods, your food, your supplies, fertilizer for the farm, almost everything, 5

PAGE 6

INTERVIEWER: Taylor (T) INTERVIEWEE: Wilkins (W) LUM 148 A and yet there was= in the town, the movies for instance,.?-~t----~re segregateywhite downstairs, colored and Indian upstair.7 and you never felt at ease, you always felt very downgraded. T: Was there any fear in your feeling--a feeling that you were being threatened? W: No fear, just hatered--no fear. T:~Jfatred against the white man or white person, white people in general? W: Most definitely so. T: Have you felt any easeof this situation other than--today? W: Yes, I-for the many years, well for the 21 years I was gone from here I never intended to return because I knew or I expected to find things practically as I had left them. But this was not the case. I came home on leave with the understanding--my family and I--that we would return to Alaska and live there. But when I came home I noticed that the signs were gone. The racial signs were gone and that the people were more friendly in general and our schools had grown in size and that they were integrating the schools and all of a sudden I felt like maybe this is the right place to live--this is the place I've always wanted to live any way, because it's home. But I was willing to give up this home. As a matter of fact, no one told me I had to stay in the service for 21 years. I did this on my own because I wanted to stay away and yet I wanted to return if you can understand this. 6

PAGE 7

LUM 148 A INTERVIEWER: Taylor (T) INTERVIEWEE: Wilkins (W) T: Yes I can. It's an ambivalent--mixed emotions feeling there. W: I think it is understandable. You do feel the need $9 get away /4~~ but you want to come back also. Have you ever~ back and c;)~~ (J ~r._egretted your ~ecisioy. _for returning?A,,Kvery way? ( I, t l ('_.IC!"..t ,~•--./., 1 'r ',I"' •. "/ ., "~ "' . ~.,,.T " . No, nci as a matier of fact I'm glad I made the decision to remain here because almost every day I see thing8> I can remember back, you know, when you rode in the back of the bus, you could not ride in the front of the bus 1 ;"'fou could not sit here, you could not go here or you could go in the drug store and get a $50.00 prescription filled, but you could not sit down and have a Coke while waiting to have this prescription filled. This is no longer true and it's a good feeling even though the bitternesJ and we who remember--it's still there. I'm in hopes that in time -#a,-f this bitterness wil~one. ljJ/cV(.., c:z.4,, T: Well I was going to ask you that, how do you deal with it because it's a very human thing, and it's understandable, yet you come in contact in your business with all race~and white, as you said, it's integrated, the signs are down. Are they down in people's minds seemingly? Do you feel this. W: Well, it goes back. Prior to going in~ service I was under the impression that all white people were the same, that they felt superior to all other human beings. T: In other words it's white supremacy? W: Yes, definitely so. And if you were not white, you were no one. 7

PAGE 8

LUM 148A 8 I felt this way even the day I was drafted. I went in service with this eeling. T: How did you come about with this feeling? W: If grew up in me because I had sar; I had never been able to do the things that anyone else could do. I lived with it. And after having been drafted to service and I lived with the white man and I noticed that his language was the same as mine, he thought the same as r thought, and actually there's no difference, you know. And he looked at me like I was a man, not like I was an Indian, you know. You're one of the guys, you know. And the longer I remained in service the more I become acquainted with this feeling, and I liked this feeling of being part of the gang, see. I guess perhaps this is one of the reasons, additional reason I remained in service as long as I di~because I like the feeling of being wanted or being part of something that was worthwhile. And over the years I've come to realize that perhaps the people back where I grew up, they're the same people as these people I'm living with in service. And maybe they will change someday, and I had hoped for this. And when I came home I noticed changes had been

PAGE 9

LUM 148A 9 made. And I was proud to see these changes and I hope it continues. T: Mr. Wilkins, you mentioned, not directly, but the fact that all races were together in the military. 1his is integration. Do you think integration was good in our schools? It came about for society, I mean, to help understanding. How do you feel? Was it a ,.,J ~l.? betterment or was it backwardsu&--~~ maybe human mark toward W: In my opinion it was one of the greatest things that ever happened, because it descends back to something that. .• I know very little about the Bibl 7 but I believe in the Bible up to a point. And it,A~ all men are created equal--well, I don't know where this came from. gut I do ,.. know that men can work togethe~ lhey can live togethe,-, and they can share ideas together• and you can't very well in order for people to do these things together they must live together. They must associate together. You can't do things through a fence, and when I grew up there was a fence here 1 and now this fence is being torn down slowly, and I'll be glad when it's gone. And had there never been integration in the service or anywher';I then there would have always been this fence.

PAGE 10

LUM 148A T: Then you're saying integration is the reason for the fence being torn down? W: Most definitely so. , 1 ..L.. 10 ~f&~ Well, it's good that~you are seeing a change for the better, T: but we do have to realize, I guess, that people don't change overnight--or do they?Afias it been this marked? W: It takes time. It'll take a lot of time for this fence to be torn completely down. As a matter of fact, I think now that we're on the fence I think maybe it's just got a deep crease in it up to this point. It's not down yet because you still have the old-timers that didn't believe in integration. ~h-1 WV'U-_J 1 'tJt ;they grew up this way. It stems from their parents and their parents before them. of time. It's gonna And until, ~._)it's gonna take a /11tta,f' d-;/CAt~ lot take 1 more educaon, more religion. It's gonna take a lot of time and a lot o_f work to get this fence completely down. T: Let's see. You said you had how many children? W: Seven. T: Seven. And did they go through 100st ~f them, while they were in school, went through integration of some sort or another, is this right? W: No. You see, I went up to I'm sorry.

PAGE 11

LUM 148A 11 T: That's all right. No, you were going to explain~ Mt<.fJW. whyd=hey didn't feel the integration. W: Well, you see, my kids never had the feeling that I have because they never knew about this feeling. My oldest son was born in '46, I went off to service in '45. All of my kids went to military schools and there there was integration. AJ /hey never They never them about knew, they never had the feeling of segregation. knew it all~heir live~. 1,I never bothered to tell /:!1.i;t/1 it until we came home.,./ course, my daughter, she's up at the university now. I've got a son up there. And they came home 7 and they could not believe the stories 1/v.P they were told by some of their friends. -,r was brand new to them. The wife and I had never told them what it was like tv'~ to live her 7 /f :fhey did not know. T: Do you think they were equipped, or did they adjust to it rather readily, or was it pretty much of a shock to them? W: They haven't adjusted to it yet! T: Sad. To what degree do you think they felt it the most, from your observation and talking as a father and so on? W: Well, I think through observation,they don't see it now like I saw it, of course. Like I said, the fence is practically down now. You don't see the signs, you know,

PAGE 12

LUM 148A 12 in the bus stationo/ and the movie5 and these other places. These signs are gone. T: But you can be made to feel it, I know. W: Yes. I still see them when I walk in there. I see them even though they're not there because I watched them through my entire childhood. They're still there as far as I'm con cerned. I feel it, but my children, fortunately, has never had to go through with this. And I've explained to them T: since we've been home that I can remember this -,r remember that, and they say, ''Well, Daddy, you never told us before." Well, I says, ''Well, if I had never came back here to live you would have never known." Well, do you feel that they have spared coming up in this kind of grown for by having been --AtJ.r environment '/1. perhaps being M ./u..t. military and traveling with different people and associatin; that they've benefited better than they would have in their home environment? W: Oh, most definitely so. I'm so proud that they have never known or did not know the life that we grew up in here, myself and-my friends and I. Because when you are depressed by any reason, you cannot do your best in anything. If you

PAGE 13

LUM 148A 13 T: W: T: are a depressed student, you don't learn as well. I was a depressed student. I was depressed in my work, I was depressed when I went to school, I was depressed. I grew up in a very depressed atmosphere. My children never knew this. They made better students. They made better grades than I ever made. Well, perhaps they're ./'~-/ ....11.:r-~, smarter than I am, I hope. ,. Well, I'm sure they're still chips off the old block, so to speak. ~"{y•r:e great. But times do change from generation to generation, but as you said, not overnight. I've met one of your children, maybe another, I'm not sure. But I do know Debbie, she's quite a lovely girl. You mentioned some of her activities in the Indian is it through the I think they're the club on the school, they changed the name to the American Indian Association where it had been the Lumbee Student Association. Isiin this area where she's involved in working, or in all areas? W: In all areas. She's made several trips, one out to the Dakotas, two to Oklahoma, one to New York. She's been to South America. Actually, the program she's involved ,

PAGE 14

LUM 148A 14 in is being sponsored by the Methodist Association, but it's working with youth and it has to do with the Indian movement program. But she's really enjoying the work, and she seems to really love this type of work, and I hope that she continues when she finishes. T: What is their major objective? Is it to get the Indian across, just to get people to know? In other words, to meet and to mingle and associate and let them draw their own~) . W: To be recognized as a person, as a people, and to be given equal rights as everyone is given. And I think this is all we want, just to be recognized as a people. ewee T: Let me ask you about this 1 -,i if you care to comment. I know that we do have a group who has pulled away from the so-called llll8me Lumbee and has taken a more militant stand for bettennent. At least, they maintain they want better r1 [:i[u\-t/11~,7 ment~for the Indians. How do you view this group and the way they're going about it, if youa\re to comment on this? W: I prefer not to comment on that. T: OK. Let's see, as we were talking about Debbie, do you think the programs that she's involved in isberhaps, maybe it might be slower in some of the th/ngs that we get, you know, progress, on the move, so to speak. But

PAGE 15

LUM 148A 15 W: do you think that these things will be more worthwhile and lasting than, say, something that comes fly-by-the night, I guess? Oh, definitely:so, because they' re going through this and J--tC/),11..,tCt_. ) / ) they're looking at it from an educational viewpoint, and they're dealing ' T: It's a scholarly thing,~ ;::(,,,-t,V..A-"../'._C)~;) ' ~-. f,,o ffuW: Yes, scholars,i\Jl,d this:;_makes things everlasting. When T: W: you look at something from an intelligent viewpoint, and you try to work these things out over a period of time. Nothing, you can't really rush into anything--perhaps with maybe you can fry an egg, fast, you know. l&,...JW/t.Ut. t,tMt.-, ?/~cut-./w .I~ q That's not always good, fflrl ,,,g iw 7 i' e fast eggs ... This is true. But when you're dealing with human beings, you don't rush. You can't change a person's mind, you can't change their will power, you can't change their way of thinking overnight. You can show a person where they're absolutely wrong, but if they have believed for a long period of time in a different direction, it'll take time. And I think this is probably what we're dealing with now. We're /t.J.J,tM(JJ AJ~ trying to reach out and let people know where we stand, and this is gonna take time• ~nd I think the programs that she's ::..

PAGE 16

LUM 148A 16 involved in will do this over a period of time. T: In other words, it promotes understanding rather than getting people stirred up, and this is what it's gonna take W: Understanding is what it will take, not hostility. T: But yet the nostility, as you were white signs. How do you deal with saying, you see the WI~• CJ/luA JJ ~..1 (Ju/1 ~.): ,--0 ,t.1 ask~, Jf':,u may not be consciously aware. this t,vt.,....,,,., c.. V"'V'>t.J ALI)) How can you look at a white man and not really hate him as such? to.dl.,>;cW.;f W: ):Ji don't deal with it, I try to understand it. So~ the finest human beings I've ever met was guys that I"-\ never knew before, because well, there's times, and especially -1-c in the Army, and situations~where you really get to know an individual, and these are the kind of people that we have all over the world. You just you don't get a chance to meet many of them in a lifetime, but they're all basically p~le. And as far my feeling about the times gone by, _ ua.,(.,l~Q .e.,,_:t__fr,~.., but I have learned to live with it. But T: In other words, you don't dwell or live in the past but you recognize it's there, right? W: I recognize it has been there. It will always be there

PAGE 17

LUM 148A 17 in my mind. But I'm willing to forget it if I possibly j Jf.-t' could 7 and be glad to forget it, iLwe .c9-n get that darn fence all the way down. T: Do you think flxe white man is coming to any better grips ~el w,-,_ with the situation w!11Ji-n himself? Yflu have to recognize that perhaps even at best you can say he's wrong in his treatment of the American Indian from the beginning, and even ~/u~ ~chools are reflecting) /rom the first grade -/-!t1..ri i' -1), w~.V.you were taught and I was taught that Columbus discovered America, which is malarkey because the Indians were here. They were the first Americans, and America~ was discovered. So we're having to go back and revamp and reassess some of the things that's been propaganda all along. But to ~ead in history; and to see how it's beenslanted, have you felt or seen any of this in your children's life~and their educational programs? W: No, not really. There has been times when questions were asked, well, daddy this and daddy this, you know. And someitmes you just don't, you don't have the answer. You don't have the answer. And this is the sad part of it, This is the sad part. It's like we've all run into the situation--

PAGE 18

LUM 148A 18 perhaps not you, but I--with the new change of the arith metic. '.J'he-kid comes home, you can't even help him, you know. T: Yes, I went through .•. my eighth grader tutored me through that course. W: True, and -~ wtuM.. .• ) T: ~/J~ in eighth grade, you know, school, and he knew more about it than I did.' W: When the time comes that the parent can't help the child with a situation, it's kind of a sad situation. But then, my father and mother could not help me with the problem that we had. Their parents could not help them. T I think it's a wise person that recognizes this in a parent's position because you do want so to help them and at the same time you feel so helpless, but I think we have to hand it to our young adults. I don't know if you agree or not, I want to see if you do, because a lot of times they come to us with problems, but if we get out of the way, generally they can work them out. W: This is true. T Sometimes as parents we can get in the way. Now, I know j/v't:, I have one entering college this fall and anotherAthat is

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LUM 148A 19 entering high school. But it was amazing to me because I didn't when integration came I~ no rules whatever_~nd they had friends among all races and it seemed .::. to me that they adjusted a lot better than I did in the situation)because here I was listening to the new' and the newspaper/and the man down the street}"and so fortl),tnd the politicians/ and they all blew it up and exaggerrated i~ and I thought I really had something to worry about. But this didn't bother the kids. If you could see them W: Sometimes they're smarter than the grown-ups, you know. T: Yeah. W: 'I j __L,. They're smarter than but I think that/Al) '?C/.AM7 T'1 0 T I try at times to detect prejudice, I mean, in my children. If it's there, I want, you know because I dp think it's 7::, ,/~"I.C•~ a handicap. Do you feel this is trueJ Ajo be proud of what you are ( Now, I know my father is three-fourths Cherokee and my mother's English. And many times he's told me, well, ~, :jRo.d.. /4u took your mother's coloring) ,t'ecause when I would go when he would go into white communities, often he said he was called nigger. And just as you said you were r/ glad your children were sparedAa lot of the things that you grew up with W: True.

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LUM 148A 20 T: Again he told me this, and I know I (~ lo /u~ 4.J,..,I summer camp program, and he said, well, don't go down there talking Indian because it won't help you. So I never really, you know, waved it or anything. But can you see tMA&t:of' a pge that the~American Indian is on the up, so to speak, and,he's becoming a person that's really the hero of today, to be respected? W: Well, I think the world is beginning to realize that there is an Indian. They've been here for a long time but T: And it's just as American as W: They're one of the minority groups, so to speak, that has never been really recognized because they're small in num ber as compared with some of ~-'%ther minority groups. They're small in numberJand they~ never really spoke up for themselves. Now, there's reasons for this. In order t<) 6.e_.) lNf ~to speak up and be heard, you must be ~intelligent) /ou must be an educated man. Now, speaking now strictly for the Lumbee Indians in this area, twenty-five, fifty years ago, we had very few educators. Very few. We had this one small college. T Right, You're saying among the Lumbee people. W: This is true. Now, I cannot speak for the other races of

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LUM 148A 21 peopl/\or the other Indians in other areas, strictly for the Lumbees. We had a very small college and very few of our people did, in fact, finish it--you know, get themselves a college education. Well, this thing has changed. The college is larger. We have more kids going to college now, and they're fanning out in the different walks of life, and this is what it's gonna take. It's gonna take education along with religion in order to get this fence down we were talking about earlier, and this, of course, is gonna take time. T: What aspect does religion play in this taking the fence down, specifically in your mind?• Religion is .. 8,. ~a;.,iE;fiand /4""-<~ ,.~.->~• ,,.,/. ~,,:v. ......" "I. e ---~ / ~,-..--.., ,.,. . .,. .,._l.,J.......,. (..•to_.-,•. , a wide field. Is it 19,!jp8' __ r.J/1 or what is it =-:::,,, ~when you say religion? c.::=::W: Well, I think this is part of ic, love thy neighbor like thyself, but I think religion basically makes a person an honest person. If you're educated andtou're honest, then you can look at things from a wide-open, you know, with an open mind. And if you're honest andfyou're intelligent and you will accept these things as they are and not try ht~~ to sweep them under the rug because y5ur~grandfather swept them under the rug. Now this is what's happened here in

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LUM 148A 22 T: this particular11for hundreds of years. If it is good enough for grandfather, it's good enough for me. And if grandfather didn't do this then I won't do this. If father didn't do this, I won't do this. ~"I! "'. -I .,,..,1 :, ' '
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LUM 148A 23 combine the two together, religion and education, and you've got yourself a pretty nice guy. And he'll look at things with an open viewpoint. T: You certainly have to recognize that if you believe in God, or call it what you like, that there is a Supreme Being True. -A(J Wc,..t, Cltto) r. ';,I And that ,..we were all created by ,J/....t, 11 W: T: W: By this Supreme Being. T: Right. And as such, we it's almost as someone have to live together whetherJ ~-''•"t... :-t:h~ has said, if we don't hang together we hang separately, so to speak. Because we've got so many other problems in the world that we need to unite. W: Oh, this is true. T: What are some of the problems that you see that's facing us all, Indians.as well as whites, blacks, polka-dots, di:: ltl/h'..J_;J ? W: Well, uh T: Right now they say we 1 re in bl ,./.1:tiJ...-f go. 1t seems like ,,every other out of gas, but an energy crisis and when I . .t'~'.v , .• I gas tank I pull up t~ 1 say they're

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LUM 148A 24 W: I think right now T: Connnent on s~ne of these current things that you ? W: I think right now if we could get Watergate out of the way we'd all~ T: I think Watergate's just about flooded, don't you? W: It will be as soon as the football game starts. T: Yeah. I have said that, um, for the truth to come out, I know, is important, but I was just as soon about forget I~ it. I'm listening for it for so long.,~ it seems like they're giving a runaround. How do you feel about that? W: Well, I T: Do you think the truth will ever emerge, really? And has this stuff not gone on right on, /~!jf= politics? W: Even.if the truth does emerge, I doubt if you and I would be able to recognize it. This thing is so involved. T: And it gets more and more. W: And it's so involved now, there's so many people involved / in it, there's been so many lies told. I assume faaeoc:e '/~,•~ "fle>Je been lies. The people that's involved in it are calling them lies, until I wouldn't know the truth if it came out.

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LUM 148A 25 T: Well, I was under the impression, and correct me if I'm wrong, because I just, you know, somewhere thought that this went on most of the time. I'm not sure about the tY.), wire-bugging thing because electronics 1 and~technology has improved, so has the devices for crime, so to speak, if that's what you want to use it for. But is it not always sort of been to try to find out what's going on in your opponent's camp, a theme in the political arena, so to speak1 Sort of a recognized, or it has been a recognized thing that's just part of the structure? W: Well, I think that the average Mr. and Mrs. America was never aware of this, that it had always been so until this Watergate thing. And~ they tell us that this thing has been going on for years, that you've had two people in the ring, you know. You've had the Republican and the Democrat and they've been at each other's throats and everybody's spying on everybody. But the average Mr. and Mrs. America didn't know this, wasn't aware of this until Wat:ergate broke. And now they say, oh, well, the Democrats 1 they did it to the Republicans in the last campaign and the Republicans did it to them before, and who really knows, you know, unless you're really involved in this thing?

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LUM 148A 26 T: W: T: W: T: W: T W: T: W: Do you think it would go as far or should go as far--even if the president knew about it--do you think it should go as far as his impeachme~ as has been talked? No, I don't think impeachment would settle in the first place, if we impeach the president, who's gonna take his place? The vice •president? He's already~ /vV-t> .. /.' 't-fjt~"fl"" d I , L\, ' .i un er investigation, see. So if we don't have a vice-president, who's gonna take his place? And I think it's better--this is my personal opinion, of course This is what we want. ,,, , r,, r, , --,U./.C..l•:.., is to .• l~:neu,pr really don't know. I really don 1 f C.;\-d~-! believe that the president was aware of this thing initially. But I believe he was informed of it after it had happened and he did nothing about it because, uh, I don't know why. &eJ!b,.{,/have to clean house, too, I guess. This is true. All the way down, probably. And he knew it was coming sooner or later, and now it's took place.

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LUM 148A 27 1t:d; T: f' /robably/: if he was infonned, he knew he couldn't run the government by himself. That's just about what it's amounted to. If it keeps on going it looks like everybody's gonna be out. W: I've lost track of how many of his Cabinet members he's replaced up to this point, but I know there's been quite a few of them. T: Yeah. I know, too. I sto.pped looking at it--though, well, I think I did tune into it yesterday or maybe the day before, and found out Agnew wa/for something when he was governor, it was following him on into the White House, but W Well, I tell you one thing, I think the hurting part of this is not to the present administration, but it's to our young people in our universities today that had ambition . 10~ t(NOLU , and hopes ofjbeing involved in government at a later dat~ once they finished their education. And now this may change their mind entirely. T: Sort of sicken them. W: Yes, they don't want to get involved in anything like this, you know. And this, I think, will definitely hurt us in the long run. T: Someone has mentioned that the Lumbee people as a group

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LUM 148A 28 seems to be the most politically oriented of the 1 some, I don't know, goodness, how many tribes or groups of Indians that you can think about, but certainly one of the most involved 1 politically speaking. so? Do you see this as I W: Yes. Of course, I haven't traveled around~,.tf/\the other -1t1-,1. e.lt.J-t. c11-tr1.'t.,•. c:i~~ti,.,.t::, T: Indian area, 4 and I don't kpow Just how much they are ,?~ po.c.Ji.:.-J involved in governmen~. But I do know that the people in this locale are involved/and I think that it's a wonderful thing. Do you understand 1 or do yo'Jwould care to speculate why you think they are involved more than, say, other groups? W: Well, this is another way of reaching out. This is another way of letting the people know who you are. I think this is why our young people is trying to get involved into politics and into government, because if they are"they can do something for their people, and they can let people know who they are. And I think this is probably one of the reasons why our young people are getting involved into politics and in the government. T: I think we mention~d before Watergate, what was the other ~H\ldi1t\Vf current issue? The energy crisis. From a man's point of

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LUM 148A view, how do you see this? We hear that the gas --t!-id,# iP Ct.. what-have-you, is it do you see 11 it 'ff legit 1 or 29 shortage, is it are the companies holding back? What do you believe? I mean we can all spec~late. It costs nothing. ~ 0 J \I.NO lJI W: Well, just about~what I get from the newspapers. It's the same old story. They say that the big companies are trying to force the little companies out of business. This may be true, I don't know just how they plan to do this if this is the truth, you know. But this one thing I have noticed, the big companies have lots of gasoline, and the small companies, I know of two companies in this locale that's completely out of business now. They no longer have gasoline. And if this is the truth, this seems to be if this is holding true throughout the United States, then there's a lot of small companies possibly out of• business by now. And the big companies do have gasoline and as of yet it has not been rationed in our particular area. ~#AJ.u I understand from the papers that there are places on the East Coast particularly where it's been rationed, even with the large companies. But fortunately, up to this point, we've still got enough to run our two-twenty-fives.

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LUM 148A 30 V T: How is it gonna affect our country, though, if they keep -11-t.. holding back? I mearn,~society as a whole. We re talking about on a national scale. W: Gee, I really don't know. I don't know how it will affect our country as a whole. I really don't. T: I'm thinking about with cold weather coming on, some, you know, the sources of heat and so on. They talk about some schools were closed last year because of the lack of the source of the energy to heat and all this. I'm wondering if there is a stopping point. Are they gonna let up if they are holding back? It's just another strategy of politics,, so to speak, or something like this. --l/4dW: Well, cl)fte-l~ a possioility that politics is involved in this thing. As a matter of fact, I'm sure politics is involved in this gas war, so to speak. But just how it will affect us in the long run, I really don't know. really, I don't think it's gonna ever reach this point because we do have to get the gasoline is available. We may ri.ot ha~ 7 ij: here. at_home, IA-, countries,Awe have it in Alaska; but we have it in foreign ,,Xnd the gasoline and the oil, the P-oil, so to speak, is available,~nd if and when

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LUM 148A Wells, typist we need it I'm sure I feel relatively sure that it will be made available to us. T: You.mentioned earlier that your family had anticipated or specu lated about settling in Alaska. How long did you stay there? W: About forty-two months. T: What specifically, one or two things that you might name, appeal 'd;.,) -/~ to you here? I mean,Afirst thing I think about it's awfully cold up there. W: This is true, but not as bad as one would imagine. The one thing I like about Alaska is your summers are very short. You have approximately ;-.ninety days' summer. And during the summer months everyone, but I mean everyone, gets out and enjoys this brief and ninety days. No one stays in the house anymore7-tne old/the young alike. T: What's the temperature liker\.AI\.. "( W: Oh, it'd range from_ 32 'at night to around 50, 54 'in the day, which is a very, very warm day in Alaska. As a matter of fact, when I left there on it was fifty-four degrees) ,at was I arrived in Seattle and it was 101 July, on August the first, 1 68, the hottest day of the year. J in four hours, still in winter clothing. So you can imagine. Well, anyway, T: Air condition~ w~ jJ...2i ~o:>dc-/~, W: The thing I liked about Alaska is the closeness. In the winter time you're closed in for approximately nine months a year. I

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LUM 148A 32 mean really closed in. And there's a constant chain of events happening/because if people didn't do something closed in for a long period of time, they'd go nuts. So for the ladies they have bingo nights, they have ceramics, they have skiing, skating nights. For the kids there's an abundance of things they can do. For the men there's, there's fishing under ice; twelve, fourteen, twenty inches of ice--drill you a little hole, do your fishing. You've got your winter sports T: Is it all like the picture shows, you just ? W: T: W: Oh, it's beautiful. &.~.~?, _). Id~ Um, huh (fffitmat:i!N'-.!)} 11 ;fell, as a matter of fact, they've got an with a little motor on it, like a lawn mower, you know. You crank it up, b-b-b-b-b-b, right down through the ice. T: So you don't even have to it's an automatic cutter, right? l-l': Almost. And they got different size blades--eight-inch, twelve inch holes. And you need a large hold for those big lake trout ocassionally. But anyway T: Sounds 1:i:.ke great eating. W': ~And then there's the parties, too, you know. Everybody likes; a good party. And there's an abundance of parties. Almost every T: r take it you're a very social being~A.,) ~0-'--L , W': r love to socialize. t!Jr/4.'u T: Could you stay at home every day of the week? 11 J{ow long before you get~ d~ '1 W': Oh, let's make it four days! !._become very bored with myself.

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LUM 148A 33 T: That's what I was thinking--that you would probably get bored in Alaska, but the way you talk about it and what's happening, I W: see that it seems to be the place to go for something. Do they still live in igloos up there_, ()"<... i.A ,/YW)M;J !• O<~CL..? No, this i)only the Alaskans in the very far north, up around the Nome area) fnd they only live in them for a very brief period of tim,e. They go out to fish for seal. And in order to get out of the north winds they build an igloo. They do their fishing there for two days, three days and they go away and they don't come back until fishing time again 1 which may be ninety days, 120 days, maybe five months. They know at what time the first seals and the regular seals run)and they go back to this igloo. It may be covered in snow, but they dig down, they dig it out and they ltve there for very brief periods of time. Other than that they live in regular homes. T: Excuse me .. just a minute, I want to turn this tape but I have a question I want to ask you and I'll wait till END Sl:DE 1.

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LUM 148A I Side{Yof the interview with Mr. Daniel Webster,,r-i-1-k--e..? 34 T: This is W: i-n-s. T: i.-n-s. Wilkins. We were talking about Alaska and I wanted to ask you this sunnner I took a course in American Indian Studies and we got into .: some of the northern tribes, I think the Alo gonquin or something. Do you see a relationship or close kinship -mayb~ or even there might even be some intermingling mixture marrying, breeding, this kind of thing between the Indian and wltat we call the Eskimos, so to speak? W': The'Jt! s a resemblance and T: ~,this came up in class and as you go through the material you see the, you get up into the colder regions. W': Ther's a resemblance in skin texture. W! In what way? W: ... and the hair, body structure, . most definitely so. Short, and I: think probably the tallest Eskimo I saw was not over 5'8". They usually stand 5'5", 5'7", the male. The female's around 5', 5 '1 11 , 51,2". There I s not as great a diffe;i;.eRee in height between male and female Alaskans as there is in the white or the Indians of this part, this particular are3,where your average male r.f01A/i,vio-,t.,..1 ' stands around 5 1 9 11 , average female 5'2", 5 1 5A. I'm just using these figures because I don't know what the statistics are. But they only vary about -jM,, U)) -fo 2.1/2~3 inches between male and female in height. Andnthis is through out the area. I noticed this quite well,be,, / cause I had we maneuvered up~right up on the Baltic Sea. T: Um, huh.

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LUM 148A 35 ~W: ~JP in the Nome arei;fhere} there's a large tribe in that area. And we. ltved there with them for about thirty days on two different occ~stons. And this I noticed about them, you ~w, as compared w;i::th our people here. Short and dark, straight black hair. T: Do you see them as a, evidently you do, as a hospital, warm type human being generally speaking as a whole? W: Very warm, very gentle, and they're just nice people. I enjoyed being near them, talking with them. i': Do you think there is a misconception)generally speakin~ or did you find it different from what you thought when you first went ther,or had formed any opinions or impressions or had any, you know, exposure to even thinking about what you might find? W: No, I had never gave it much thought. I went to Alaska in '48 on an inspection tour. And I heard several stories about the hunting and fishing. And that's the only reason I wanted to go up there. I knew very, very little about the people up there. I read very little about them, if any. And the only thing I'd ever saw about the Alaskan people was the movies, you know. And I had never gave it any thought. T: Speaking of movies, hqw do you feel the movie industry up till 1}laybe recently or ev"J1then, well, how do you feel the movie -J'/\ fi/'-'1.Jl./lfll,fa Indian? Has it been pretty industry has eot}FY the American true to form? What can you comment on that? W'-! Unfair.

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LUM 148A 36 T: In wtiftt way-d,o ~a,t,,,.., jJJL ~oA,? W: In almost every way. T: Well, go on W: Well, they have always T: I know what you mean. W: they have alw~ys shown the Indian] as a dirty, in most cases, dirty, uneducated man, savage by nature, a thief at night, hostile, in almost every instance, a scavenger--you name it and this is the way the American Indian has J. always been labelled as far as Warner Brothers and your other big companies are concerned. T: Do you see that this influences the self-concept of not only, well, the Indian children's self-concept, but it also impresses on o_ther races.. the idea of where we get the false ideas about the American l:ndian. W: You know, I've had I had kids, and especially in the army, you know, had ne~r saw an Indian 1 and my kids would come home from school)a't.:/say, this is, this is little Johnny Brown, you know? me And he ;::;/,in school today and he asked me who, I told I was an Indian; fl if?hey had never met real live Indian. And they, the only thing they t::;::: abo~what they see in the movies. And my kids are supposed to be hostile T: They want to know where your warpaint is. W: Oh, yes. And they're supposed to carry a knife and supposed to steal at night and things of this nature, see? But it wasn't the J kids fault. He saw this in movies. And for this reason alone

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LUM 148A 37 and not only speaking for the Indians themselves the same has happened to other minority groups. They have been downgraded very much so by the movie industry. T: Well, it's coming up now. I notice that they're rebelling,even the people that didn't come out and say they're Indian,like Marlon Brando and different ones who are in a position to turn down an Oscar. He's been given three or four, but even the gesture still that he wouldn't accept an award in a country that still treated the first Americans in such a way, not }giving them fishing rights in one place, and this kind of thing. And I understand so many of our entertainers, here comes, oh, what's the guy's name that sings so well that I like, I'm trying to think, weii, Johnny Cash has got some Indian blood in him . T: That's one. And Ray Price. And even, I saw Oral Roberts c0me out with a program and he announced that he was part Indian. So people are beginning to stand up and say, look, I'm Indian and it just counts for something. But before it was, you never really . d: It didn't, wasn't talked about~c/0 ccudd../~ thought about it. fro,uJ W:~ I think perhaps the movies have a lot to do with this~They had, if you had Indian blood in you, your supposed to be ashamed of i-S,twenty-five, thirty years ago. But today they're not ashamed of it anymore. As a matter of fact some of the old movies they're bringing back, you know, to fill in space--the cowboy and ,7' t,,,.,d Indian movies--he shoots orre,.-,rfive Indians fall. It's a big

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LUM 148A T: 38 laugh, you know. And my daughter called me not so long ago. She said, "Daddy," she says, I says, "I saw this movies back when I was a boy." The three musketeers or something. I don't remember. She says, "Is this the kind of trash that you watched when you were a kid? And you enjoyed this?" She said, "It's a mockery." She says, "It's phony." I says, "Well, I didn't know any different at the time and I thought this was real live entertainment" But you can see it Oh, you know. But else, you know. You're led to believe these things and you got people that makes movies. They got to be intelligent people. And this has just got the way it had to be for a kid, you know, of six, seven years old. They be lieved almost anything. T: Right)~ :Jcf0t /Jaw~ tA,A.. fJA-C~. W: So when little Johnny followed my son home from school he had found h:i;mself a real live lndian friend. Little Johnny don't know. He saw it in the movie. And I think the movies has been very unjust in some respects to the minority groups in America. T: There was a story of one guy,,Ira Hayes, I think he's supposed to raise the flag on Hiroshima, something like this. Came home a hero, but turned out to be a drunk. And some guy wrote a book and I can't remember the man's name but it's "Nobody Likes a Drunk.en Indian." You work in an ABC store. You sell liquors b/4.-i.f and alcohol of different,A well, f~ /Cd go below and up. How II . I( do you see alcohol and the Indian?

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LUM 148A 39 W: No different from no one else. T: Someone has made the connnent that they can't drink this firewater. Does that go back to the propoganda ? W: I't's the same old story. Let's assume you had two dogs, you know. 'rwi~dogs, tf there is such a thing, you know, just a like. You take one of these dogs arid tie him to a tree and feed him once a day. Take the other dog inside the, home, give him his bath, give him a shampoo; he rides with you in an automobile. Now r ask you six months from now which one of those dogs would bite you first? T: The one who had been probably deprived. W': This is true. This is true. If a man has the freedom to buy what he chooses to buy regardless what it is. The Indians in Oklahoma I know this to be a fact because I was there, very briefly, I T: W: was there to school, a four-week school. They could not buy, 'course Oklahoma's a dry count7 at the time, but they could buy beer. Not a dry county; dry state. He could not go in and bu~ so he had to send someone after it. Now if he was caught consuming it, they'd put him in jail because he was an Indian,he's not supposed to drink in the first place. As a result he drank too much. di . / I tj:.a ~L...., /'l.,<-v •Ai here--I can remember when the whiskey was made in the country,~verybody went to the country, bought the whiskey, they came to town to drink it. You know. now And/they come to town " buy their whiskey and they go to the

PAGE 40

LUM 148A 40 country to drink it. As a result you can walk these streets any tim/you may see a drunk occasionally like you'll find in any other town. I can remember on the weekend when there were ten or twelve drunks. It's the same old story---leave me be and I'll leave you be. T: r don't think I've ever seen a drunk person in Pembroke on the street. I may have at someone's home or something like this, but it was never not on the street. And I've been here almest six years. W: They've got the freedom to buy as they please. They can drink it where they wish and they don't take advantage of it. T: Well, there's something about this. I know, what do you think it is. It's not just Indian, it's human nature. I can give out of .: cigarettes and die for one. But I can go buy them and lay them down on the counter and I'll go on about my business just knowing they're ... W.: Knowing they're there. T: Maybe not, I'll say, well, I'm going to go get a cigarette. I'm just going to, you know. W: Just knowing they're there. T: Just knowing you can have them like you say keeps a>lot of people from buying when probably they would. And this leads me to something els~r young peo~le_say that we have our, our thing, so to u . speak~
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LUM 148A T: 41 Pot and marijuana, pot's the slang, I think, for it. How do you see this affecting society? They maintain that it's no worse than our liquor and we're getting cirrhosis of the liver and all t~s stuff. {J.tf'__ (4,,/ 6d Acv_..., , , Well, I (JCJ.J/4R_,..) I~one:of your youngsters, I'm saying one of your adult youngsters cl came to you with this or you suspecte1, how would you deal with , it? What would be your comments about it? a4 fj d,t,,At), J. < /J alcohol, that's your thing, .i?-/ JyU, c/a ft,1,uAL C0U /:;:,v_c;.i.J.J, f W:4 I really don't ~now. I read an article not so long ago about, this doctor had wrote) fa.d it was some, I don't know whether it was a series of tests they had took or some type of survey or somethingjwith marijuana, strictly marijuana, nothing else., we,c,.,.,-1. And his viewpointAthat marijuana was no more harmful and in some cases not as harmful as alcohol_,and that it was not even habit forming) -,fot so much as alcohol would be. T: Not as -much as regular tobacco I've read someplace. these W: Yes. Soi don't know. I know a very little bit about /' iifferent types of things. I hope I'm never confronted with the situation. But if I am, I hope that I'll be able to safnd do the right thing. T: Well, as a parent, I guess that:'e all we hppe on any issue. W: This is true. T: Do you see a time when perhap~in going back again to making it availa~, forbidden fruit sometimes looks, you know, just the

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LUM 148A 42 fact that they want to show or express independenc 7 /erh~ps it being legalized beverage control. and gets it or at ,or controlled in the way the alcohol, alcohol We know thattthere's a certain age that goes to least/the man who he faces or buys it from they might send _;,a younger person -.iii& consume it. But still we A Ii,..._,,,., f'.,,.,t' v.<-,, .... know it doesn't have batte7acid or eg*al rocks or what-have-you~~~ I't's something that's pure with the right chemicals in it. And I''m saying legalizedfrom the standpoint that it's inspected or controlled in the way that alcohol is. Could you see that this would be a solution in any way? W': I' th;tnk .that marijuana will definitely be legalized in the near future. They're working on it. Of course, you've got certain groups, certain religious groups that will fight it day and night. And you've got other educated, groups that will fight it, but I think that in the near future marijuana will be legalized perhaps in a control, like you say, control form, you know. But I think it will be legalized. T: Let me ask you this. How do you feel about abortion? It has been legalized in many states. I'm not sure it's been implemented. Thi.s goes with the Wonen's Lib and you having daughters and so on and thinking about, well~with this, if I /J. was presented with an-unwanted pregnancy so to speak. And then the women argue that they should have control of the destiny of their body, so to speak, or at least the choice. How do you feel about this? Your own personal

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LUM 148A d'~) 43 W:ft I believe that abortion should be legalized and especially in ,:, the case of an unwanted or unwed mothe:J and with, of course, the mother's consent, the parents', which ever the case may be, or the husband. I think that it should be legalized. T: Because it seems if a woman wants an abortion she's going to get it one way or the,other. And sometimes with a butcher or whatever. W': There's always a way. And if they don't make it legalized to where they can go to a clinic that is capable of doing this type of work, this type of surgery, they may do it and harm themselves; have it done by some quack doctor or something. And this has happened in many cases. I I T: Let me ask you this if it'shot too personal.}U br?b-:<1t'(rbut, If l U you had a well, you daughter who came 11w:1,.&e.. /;11,,, know,;,r've missed to you and said, "Daddy, look, two periods," or something like this, "and I don't want to marry this guy and I want you to help me with it." Would you consent to an abortion? W': Well, first I'd discuss it with the wife and if they both agreed .AY -1.t,Jand.,, tho at;Frt this was the right thing to do I think I'd go along t,~ with it a hundred per cent. T: How do you feel about people having children that is unwanted? ~u know, they go ahead and go through with it because of morals or religion or what-have-you? W': Well, it's unfair to the child because if the parents don't want a child; well, there's another viewpoint there, too. Perhaps the

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LUM 148A 44 child could be adopted out and fall into a good home, but then this is a chance you're taking. T: Right. w:11n the case of a married couple having a child that is unwanted, X don't know, this would require even more thought. But to the unwed mother I would go along with abortion one hundred per cent. T: If your daughter or your son came to you and said, and this is prevelant, especially larger cities, it may not have got, you know, into Pembroke, but I read about it in the magazines and so on and I know you've heard it in the 1' news, trial marriages and so on. Say, look, daddy, I want to, you know, get a license for for a six months' trial marriage. Do you think this is a good thing? Would it decrease the divorce rate? Would it help society or would it degrade it? W: Oh, boy. I don't I really don't know. T: I know that's a loaded one, but W: This one is more than loaded. I never even give this a thought. I've heard of wife-swapping and things but I don't know. I ()>(,).. never even give thista thought. I wouldn't even want to comment on it. , T:~ung people are, you know, goinf-;!emingly this ~~&,vj way. It I don' t .a/)c,;./j VJ~ kno, l)'t:f it works for them maybe, you know, it's okay, but I'm not sure. I'm like you. It's a question mark. Perhaps history will prove it out whether it be right or wrong or not. Listen,

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LUM 148A 45 I'm really enjoying this interview. And I know I'm taking more because time than I intended to, :-/ you're a very interesting person to talk to and you've made some very wonderful contributions in your views and so on. Is there anything that I haven't men tioned because it's hard to get everything in when you're talking to a person;or it's impo~ible almost, but something that maybe you'd like to say about anything because this is one thing apout an interview like this we can jump back and forth if we like; that you'd like to comment on around the American Indian or just people in general? W: No, I: just, well, one comment) ~I hope that our people, and 1n I use the word, "our people, 11 /speaking about the Lumbee Indian-the Indians as a whole--continuesto drive for better education and better understanding with their fellow man. And I think that if we continue to do this that we'll get this fence down one day. has goto, I I may not live long enough to see it, but this fence ... /1.: to come down. T: Well, I'm with you in that. I envision, I want to see that, if not t,11/ as you say, in my lifetime 1 I hope that, as someone else has said, perhaps it will. As Robert Frost has said, nobody really loves a wall anyway. and whether it's seen or unseen. I wanted to ask you one more question and this is perhaps putting you on the spot a little bit. If you had it in your ifer to do anythin~ and you weie in the position'ft> bring about any change or keeF

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LUM 148A 46 things as they are even, what would you do? What would you con" c_: ,,,.J:..,; sider the greatest n~ed~in our world today that you would change? W: I'm glad you asked that question because we're going back to . ---#.,w (;6 integration. First they integrated the Army and this wa3-rtHarry s. Truman's decisio~through the~ess of course. And I think it's one of the greatest decisions ever been made in the history of my life, including the signing the Declaration of Independence. But this was a great thing. And then they integrated the schools. Now this was a force, this was a force integration. T: So -many people fought it. W'! Oh, -most definitely so. first T: And wW\_t was your /. thought on it in fact? W: Well, I had mixed thoughts. I really did. I had~ very mixed thoughts on it. T: think everybody probably did. W: But t happened. And now that it has happened I think it's a I'd wonderful thing. But l think.if I had the powe/ / change the religious people's way of thinking. Number one, the grown-ups, the -mature people is the people that runs our government, the people that runs our towns, our cities, runs our nation. Now if the grown-ups, if they are integrated, and let's integrate them i in the churches. ;You go to a church which is segregated, but the kids are forced to go to an integrated school. Now her's Mom and Daddy sitting at their all-white church or in their all-black church or all-Indian church, but little Johnny and little Mary

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LUM 148A 47 has to go to an integrated school. Now if our churches were integrated our nation would be integrated. But until such time as the religous nucleus of our country, as long as it is segregated, our country will remain segregated. T: You know you've made a wonderful observation there that I've never voiced. But I have this black friend who is a female. I can W: go with her to a movie or out to eat and I don't feel any stigma at all. But there's something about it, I've never been able to ask her to go to church with me because I felt I would be, you know, society's pressure would be so great that maybe I just couldn't take it, you know .,1.,,,___ But chll.d and your child could go to the same school. T: Right. And we could eat together and visit together in each other's homes, this kind of thing. And I've felt it. I've never, as I've .said, voiced it. And I don't think I've herad another person saf-it right out, but that's a wonderful observation. And r think it's a great need. W: I believe that the church is the heart of our society. And I'm tuJitL church man, I don't even go to church. T: I understand what you're saying. w: I'111 not religious, but I believe that the church is the heart of our society. IL we integrate thechurches the remainder of our society will follow suit. Yu have to begin some place. So begin at the head, lefctn't begin at the foot. And our grannnaJ

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LUM 148A 48 grade schools is a way down there. Now we say this is the be ginning because this is our youth, but they'.re not responsible for being down there. We put them there. The grown-up is the man that runs the nation. Start upstairs and everything else will follow suit. there's T: How do you feel today, you know,the movies and everything--/~ nudity you know; and ft' s sex, sex, sex--have we overdone it? r//e 're almost/held back i:n school. Where should sex education begin•. in your estimation? Should it be in the home or should the schools stay out of it, /),t_~ the churches come in or ~t? t/o W: %I think the schools, I think the schools should control, should teach sex. The reason being, you have so many . parents, my parents for instance, they would have never discussed sex with one of us, and there was seven of us. T: The word just doesn' t come out. If you do, you have spell it) de. /J()f~{ o/ ~Jtf..t.[lVc. 'zj W: And very quietly, you know. But the parent today is much wiser and they think differently from what the parent did of twenty, thirty years ago. They look at things more open-minded. Yet we have young parents t today who would never discuss sex with one of their young. So someone has to have the responsibility. So we say let the teacher do it because she don't have any feelings. This is not her child, you know. And I don't know if this is fair to put this responsibility on the teacher. She's there to teach the kid an education. T: But there's many things involved in education.

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LUM148A W: Sex is a part of education •. T: It's a part of life. W: Yes. T: Do you see it in 4-9 W: Well, yes and no. This would depend on, I think this would probably bring in an age group when you get involved in religion. T: Naybe the young people ... W': Yeah. But in schools, I think perhaps schools would probably be the best. And another thing, too. there's some kids, once they reach an age where they begin to understand sex, maybe they don't want to listen to it from their parents. They had rather listen to it from a schoolteacher or from a friend. T: There is an age they go through where the parents are old fogies. W': This is true. They stay away from their parents as much as pos sible. And this in some cases is just the right time--the twelve, or fourteen, thirteen year-old. This is when they need it. They should have got a touch of it even before then in my opinion. But by the time a girl, especially a girl, reaches the age of thir teen, she should know, she should have been told. And !'-think th;ts is the right time. And let's let schoolteachers do it. I think they're more qualified. T: Well, I'm not sure whether they're qualified or not, but if you give them the freedom to do it I'm sure they'l certainly put forth their best. I know that W': :I: think so , too.

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LUM 148A so T: that some have been kicked out, you 1/tnow, because you 11.rPI; said agairyAthe parentst not being enlightened, you know, feeling that it was a hush-hush subject and therefore they shouldn't hear it in school. But I'm glad to hear a parent say that because that's my ambition is to teach and I've done some ts there anything else you'd like to comment on? of it already. W: T: No, I' tli:ink I've said enough. Well, you said it really well) appreciate this interview. W: I'',ye enjoyed it. ' ~;&'-~~J and I want to~tell you how much I T: '.For Doris Duke's Foundation and for the University of Florida, and then this tape will come back eventually to our own university here 1 so that our children across the nation and our students and even the parents can go hear real, live Indians tell their story. And I want to thank you, Daniel Webster T: Wilkins. W': Thank you. T: Thank you very much. END OF TAPE.