Title: Interview with Marilyn Taylor (June 7, 1973)
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007126/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Marilyn Taylor (June 7, 1973)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: June 7, 1973
Spatial Coverage: Lumbee County (Fla.)
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00007126
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 139

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LUM 139A
Date: June 7, 1973
Subject: Marilyn Taylor
Interviewer: Lew Barton
Typist: Josephine Suslowicz + baborw- r sf &-%


B: June 7, 1973. This is Lew Barton interviewing Marilyn Taylor. On--as the

interview opens we are discussing my column called "Beside the Trickling

Brook." How about reading it for us. I just love the way you did it this


T: Well I think it would be in, uh, perhaps a better order, a sequence of, um,

to read the one we did last week, 'cause it seems to have a definite rela-

tionship-"- '_ yftc, abntrat ancrn., but, uh, I believe if you really look

closely, anddmayhby really a close look, I think you can see a relationship.

This is, of course--what we're talking about is the, uh, column that, uh, I

guess you might call me a ghost writer, that I do for you sometimes when

you're out of town, or get in a bind,OmNM you have other writing, um,

assignments to do, and this is what we call the poetry column. ltls-a.

ol m"n that -I think we decided this together after talking over several

titles to come up with "Beside the Trickling Brook." And up until last week
i,0I YOU7V
we hadn't had an illustration)that I think, uh,-i4s son, Gary, has, uh, done

a good job this week, and even-ismybea an improvement--last week and made
It- A
an improvement overCjover at this week. The column that, uh, I-read first,

of course, we know to benefit anybody that, uh, does not, we'll say that

it comes from the Carolina Indian Voice. We advertise this paper, or sub-

title it, rather, a newspaper for all Indians and all their friends every-

where. Beside the Trickling Brook by Lew Barton. Ur, we say -thoe-by Lew

Barton, but really, uh, this is your column and I was just writing this one

time, or a few times. This is the date of Thursday, June 7, 1973.

LUM 139A 2

(Pum f la..., June is a romantic month. This is brought home when you

see all the pictures of June brides in the newspaper. Not too much, however,

is said about the June groom, except his name is mentioned, which, of course,

is good, and some Women Libbers, uh, might keep this in mind. Without June

grooms there would be no June brides.

B: (Laughs) I remember that column and most love poems, you continued, are--

are inspired by. .

T: The feeling of love for another person. The following poem was written by

a Toupee Indian in the year 1550.

B: And that's a long, long time ago, isn't it?

T: I d like to repeat that year because, uh, I think it's a misprrinr--1550.

Subtract that from 1973.

B: Let's see, 1973--1550. Oh, that's three hundred and twenty-three years

ago, isn't it? _Le4 egeeg how Indians wrote poetry that long ago.

T: (Phm-fo+oa ws/ You magic powers in the skies who love the rains, make it

so that he, no matter how many women he has, will think them all ugly.

Make him remember me. Remember me, New Moon. New Moon, here I am in your

presence. Make it so that only I may occupy his heart. (&Cfg s-

As you say, uh, or it's said, "Love knows no age." Many Indian tribes

ao e- Ov with courage. j Od tor states that love is

a mandate to hurt, and heshe suggests that if and when you say, I love you,

give that person a band-ald. If you tell 'em more than once, you might

want to give 'em a box or two of band-aids.

B: Uh, that sounds a little bitter.

T: But the point is, I think, that he's trying to make here, that love does

hurt, and this is why it takes courage to love, but love is also healing,

and it puts forth warmth.

B: Tell us more.

LUM 139A 3

T: But in it--this, um, leaves positive things. Love is not for cowards.

B: That's for sure.

T: And coldness is their reward. A man of great courage named, and I won't

attempt to prounounce it, uh,-but- uh, I think I can, but, uh, for the

benefit of the--so that they'll get it righ5 let me spell it. He was a--um,

he wrote this love charm, and he was a medicine man, and his name is spelled

G-A-T-I-G-W-A-N-A-S-T-I, and this poem was purchased from his son on the

Cherokee reservation in North Carolina in 1888, and this is the poem:

LCA translating, You, listen. You great earth woman--great

spirit woman of the White direction--south, no one with you is ever lonely.

You are beautiful. Your spirit presence has instantly made me-Wite--the

color of happiness. Never can it be lonely. Now I am with who no one

can ever be lonely. Now you have made the path I travel hite--the color

of happiness. Never can it be lonely. It shall never become Vfue--the

color of sadness. You have brought down to me from above the White road.

You have placed me upon it, so that no one shall ever be lonely again, so

that I am wonderfully handsome, you have put me into a house-of 3hiteness.

It shall always envelop me and no one with me shall ever be lonely. In

truth, I shall never become blue. You have instantly caused this to be so

with me, and now there, on the earth you have made this woman Blue. You

have made her path yiue for her. You have veiled her in loneliness. You

bring her down to the earth. You place her standing up on the earth in

her lue webe, Wherever she may go, she will let loneliness cover her.

You will let her be marked up for loneliness where she stands. Ah, the plan

to which I belong is the one 1XOv allotted for you-woman. With me

no one is ever lonely. I am handsome. Put your soul in the very center of

my soul, soman. Never turn away. Grant that in the midst of men she will

never think of them.' My xlan is the one plan & A allotted for you,

LUM 139A 4

woman. Your soul has come into the center of my soul never to go away.

I--and I now tell you my name--age, maturity.Perhaps you will recognize

an excerpt from one of the greatest love stories of all time It, too,

was written by a very courageous man of great wisdom. (If fullawo)

"How beautiful are thy _:t L wel d choose, oh princess--prince's daughter.

The -o t of thy. ixa ,_ are like jewels, the work of the hands of a

eaet rnworkman. The navel is like a round goblet which oae-"nst-not

lAun^ Thy navel is like a round goblet which .ne not -A-nr

Thy belly is like a heap of wheat set about with lilies. Thy-two breasts

are like two young roses that are twins. Many waters cannot quench love,

neither can0 floods 5dw it. 69=* Of course, many of you will immediately

realize that the above passage is from the bible--Song of Solomon, an ft

re a very holy book, and love is a very sacred emotion ordained by God who

is the author of love. It is in this spirit that I offer the following

poem published here for the first time.

B: By Lew Barton.

T: 4We Worship at the Alter. I worship at the alter of your womanhood, it seems.

Though I bow and tremble to recall your store of broken dreams./ You've been

far too much a woman for your own good) hat seems clear./Yet, it is that

very womanhood that makes you doubly dear./Gentle woman, tender woman how

you suffered for so long,for the natural things so right, the narrow-minded

call so wrong,/but it's over, over, over. /Help me make the wrong things

right. Let me worship at the alter of your womanhood tonight. /I shall not

say I forgive you for the things of your deep past./Rather, I shall say

I blessed whatever brought me you at last./ Let us view the living present.

Leave the dead past in the past./Let me worship at the alter of your

womanhood so vast. Still, the time has come when you must come and separate

at last/self from forces quite destructive that could snarl and s1aOtmaml

LUM 139A 5

our fate./You are now a oL h ~ap u formed and tried as if by fire./

Let me worship at the alter of your womanhood entire Strange how painful

errors form us, and cnj orm us that we are wrong./ We must relegate such

error to the past where they belong. /Poor Lot wife, she looked back

and a block of salt became. /Turn your gaze upon the futnmej lest we too

become the same. /Let us live the living present looking for the future's

right. Let me worship at the alter of your womanhood tonight. -(Ernd

Ad the original of that was written--I think a b.was OwetA,_ So,

this is for Thursday, June 7. I think the following week you did the

column because, uh, you had a break there in between going to, um, one of

the assignments of either poetry or the history program of the schools, and

so the one I read now is a publication of the Carolina Indian Voice. I

always have to say this because it, uh, says something to me and I appre--I

like itenda I've had favorable comments from other people, and, uh, other

people appreciate it. The Carolina Indian Voice--a newspaper for all Indians

and all their friends everywhere and I think what's significant about tha -.

really, really significant, is that when people from here or outside, or any-

where, it's really taking up-eencompassing) a-a large major--a large group--

groups, races, creeds, colors, because certainly the Indians do have

friends everywhere, and I don't think they ought to lose sight of that. Some-

times I think * it's probably possible, but if they go with this attitude

that they have friends everywhere, they will. And I think that's true of

anybod3of any race, creed, color. As we mentioned earlier, Gary cut down

the illustration and it does seem to be more in proportion with the column,

and I don't think I described it. Uh, when we first started, um, this

column we--it was meant to be a poet's aeemn, and we wanted original poetry

from our readers, and I understand that some have--that I have talked to,

have sent some in, and I guess we haven't had time to receive them yet, but

LUM 139A 6

perhaps we will and, um, Gary's article, um, but first let me tell, uh,

the first two times we asked for contributions from our readers of their

original poetry, or maybe their favorite poetry, but--and so, we said, she

"tCb'ing, about a trickling brook suggest tranquility--where a person would
take a book to read, to be quiet, to get away end-meditate, and, uh, you

wrote the introduction, and with that came the poem--I might not quote it

just right, but I think I've got the gist of it, um, "Beside the trickling,
gurgling brook where ous--where there I, myself betook with a book to

refresh my soul."

B: Something like that.

T: Okay, this is June 21, 1973, Thursday. I always look forward to Thursdays

because this is when The Carolina Indian Voice comes out. Lew Barton writes

other columns, so he can get away with being a little devious and having

ghost writer and, uh, that, sort of is JvkAl.. to me because it fits

in with, uh, some of the myths and the legends and ghosts and witches, and

spells, and when you think of these things it's not always negative. Some-

times, you know, a good ghost. Yhen grpw up, Casper was a good

ghost. He always helped every e-tried to, but sometimes he got in hot

water 'cause he tried to help everybody, and you can't always do that and

when'you do you harm yourself, so itl'a-it's sort of a-a long struggle, and

a hard struggle, and each day you have to make judgements to this, and they

almost have to be what you call snap decisions, 'cause you don't have time

to--to really weigh them out--put 'em on the scales and see how they come

out, and what I'll--I'm getting this week is something that goes in with

this decision-making- adjustment to life. We never get, uh, to the point

where we don't do this, um, someone said they never talkAbactk they esP a

lot, they're always passive, and after going through a--a certain kind of,

um, positive treatment, they begin to be expressive, and overly so. So ycr

LUM 139A 7

d.pap- o 4-al" gswings--what's accepted in one year, the next year it's sort

of outdated itp and so, maybe what I've written here, uh, might not go, uh,

next year, but it's what I think ath feel today) its, uh, it's a

feeling that's in my--all the students, uh, not all of them. I'm getting

to learn not to make general statements when you're talking in a context of

newspapers, or writing in them, but it's a general feeling, um, with a good

deal of students, that they feel this way, and it goes like this:

"Beside the Trickling Brook" by Lew Barton--done by Marilyn Taylor for Lew

Barton, and L' v reading. Yacyr ___ reading.

"Not long ago I was disturbed to read a newspaper report of a student's

speeh which maintained that today's college seniors, or rather this college

senior, views his education simply as a means of a better-paying job, more

security, social position. If there are students who believe this, then it

seems to me that they mast have missed the main point of college, or indeed

of being alive, and that we're in for trouble. The true liberal education

should have larger aims than just cramming its students with facts in order

to teach them to make a living. This does not make dynamic, creative people--

it makes robots, and a liberal education first must help each student to find

himself as an individual, and then it must help the student to lose himself

in interests, causes, and_ ideas larger and more enduring than he is.

Everything for good or bad comes from an idea. If we are fortunate, this

idea becomes our DREAM (and that word dream is capitalized completely, all
the way through--all its letters). Our dreams are the ultimate accomplishment.

Goals and objectives are methods to reach our seemingly impossible dream.

Many people doomed the Carolina Indian Voice from the beginning, yet it

continues to be a weekly publication because one Lumbee Indian dared to

drean.ut more important, dreams are realized as a result of action followed

through, as expressed in this poem, "It Couldn't Be done."

LUM 139A 8

B: By Edgar Guest.

T: ASomebody said that it couldn't be done.\ (Now let me make an explanation on

this because I've heard this all my life. It's written by, I think, a great

poet. He's-done several good ones that I like. This is probably my favorite

but we used to read it or recite it in school, and when I went out of the

area, I think in Washington D.C. to visit some friends up there, and did it,
they--it was--well they--they said I really had mountain--a mountain accent

or some kind of foreign language thing. They couldn't make the words out,

but they sure of the tone of it& and since it--so since I--it came to me like

that, um, I know, you know, standard English and all, and so I think I'll

try to read it in the, um, Indian mountain dialect, more or less, because

I think they're, uh, they're very closely related, if not the same in many

cases.) "It Couldn't Be Done .be done, but he, with a chuckle replied,

but maybe it couldn't, but he'd be one who wouldn't say so uatil he tried.

So he buckled right in, and with a trace of a grin on his face. If he

worried he hid it, and he started to sing, as he tackled that thing that
couldn't be done, and he did it. Somebody scoffed, a you'll never do that--

at least no one's ever done it, but he took off his coat and he took off his

hat, and the first thing we knew, he had begun it. With a lift of his chin

and a listle-bit of a grin, without any doubting or quilting he started to sing

as he tackled that thing that couldn't be done, and he did it. Now there's

thousands that'll tell you it cannot be done, and there's thousands that- o

propheeia failure, and there's thousands to point out to you, one by one,

the dangers that wait to assail you, but you just buckle in with a bit of

a grin, and you just take off your coat, and you go to it, and you just start

to sing as you tackle that thing that cannot be done, and you'll do it. 4AMr:

Of course Edgar A. Guest wrote that. Now I would kind of like to experiment

here and give it, uh, read in standard English--do a little better without

LUM 139A 9

the, um, slur of the--see that-by comparison from our own sake.

"It Couldn't Be Done" 'Somebody said that it couldn't be done, but he, with

a chuckle replied, that maybe it couldn't, but he would be one who wouldn't

say so 'til he tried. So he buckled right in with the trace of a grin on

his face, and if he worried, he hid it. He started to sing as he tackled

the thing that couldn't be done, and he did it. Somebody scoffed, oh, you'll

never do that--at least no one has ever done it. But he took off his coat,

and he took off his hat, and the first thing we knew, he had begun it. With

a lift of his chin and a bit of a grin, without any doubting or quiing,

he started to sing as he tackled the thing that couldn't be done, and he

did it. There are thousands to tell you that it cannot be done. There are

thousands to prophecy failure. There are thousands to point out to you, one

by one, the dangers that wait to assail you. But just buckle in with a

bit of a grin, just take off your coat and go to it. Just start to sing

as you tackle the thing that cannot be done, and you'll do it.\ (k*M I

think we find a paradox, you know, you-you doing a thing that you say you

cannot--that can't be done, and many times we feel this way, and maybe a

grin helps. It wouldn't hurt, but at any rate, I think it's eecessential

that we instill, in our young people, as well as the old, whatever you put

as old, I know a hundred is--people 110 that's still young. My grandmother

used to tell me when they talked that I was young and foolish that--and I

sort of fretted about it. They didn't like, maybe, something I did, and

she said, %ell child, don't worry about that too much. When you get to be

ninety there'll always be somebody around a 110 that thinks you're young

and foolish* =and she was in her early 80's then, so she was being tol too,

probably that she was foolish. But this is good because it keeps us think-

ing young, and it keeps us to have a desire to go on, and we need something--

some kind of a desire to obtain that feeling--the desire to dream, the desire

LUM 139A 10

to dream. Does that just--you know, like, come about just like magic, or

do you have to work about it, uh, like you have a desire for food, or
desire for something cold to drink, or desire to earn a million dollars,

or a desire to earn fifty dollars, or a desire to dream? To dream for the

sheer joy of living and working toward the dream. Without dreams life

becomes dull and stale, and so do we. If we are biblically minded, and most

people are in some way or another, or some are positive or critical, or what

have you, really makes no difference so long that the point that we--I want

to make here is that many stories, and many times in the bible, there's a

mention of dreams and people took great stock in them, or they may have

termed them visions. We might say dreams--night dreams, day dreams, but

our night dreams,I think, could help us in realizing the dream of our life

because we know that God came and spoke to many people in their dreams

while they slept, and so dreams are important. It's important in this

day to go from, um, the very ancient time of biblical time, we can come to

psychology, which is a very relatively--a new science. They place great

stock in dreams, or a great, uh, importance, and this is the way they are--

many times they use what a person dreams. They ask--ask them to go over

because they, you know, we dream in symbols, and they have to be interpreted

by someone who understands it, uh, whether it be a Freudian view, or, um,

SILF \fl y or umanistic man, or the behaviorist man, whatever the

theory. Psychology recognizes that dreams are important, and someone has

said that religion and psychology didn't go together, and I--I think if we

really look we esLd find new parallels. I didn't write that on paper, but

I just had that thought as I was thinking about it. Without dreams, as I

said, life would be dull and stale. Think about that for a minute. Think

about some of the dreams that you've had, some that you've accomplished,

and some that you haven't yet accomplished, and what are your dreams? Or you

LUM 139A 11

n ar new
migl even ask, um, you know, um, talking can always, you know, really

be a big thing. Psychologists tell us that if we don't dream--people

maintain that they don't dream at night--I'm speaking of night dreams, uh,

that we would die within a matter of, uh, a day or two. Now the people

that say they don't dream, they are nonrecallers. There's recallers and

nonrecallers, but they've made experiments of people in combat who didn't
sleep for three and four--five days at % time, and they would literally

sleep on their feet and dream. The way to do this--they would see the--

the visions, uh, what they call hallucinations--see things that really

wasn't there, and this is what we do when we're sleeping, you know. -And

so this is why we term maybe impossible if it's something of a wish--a

wish for riches, uh, or some, uh, uh, accomplishment in our life that

may be something in our personality--maybe something that we want to do,

urn, just in a small minor way. The dreams are something that we, uh, can

learn--can help us to lear nand some time ago, um, Lew Barton wrote about

dreams, and he wrote about how they can help individuals as well as sharing

in common0 zy maybe we ought to get together sometime and just get a

group of people--friends--trusted friends that we can, you know, really

trust, and have a dream-fest, or a, you know, everybody tell some of

their dreams--the dreams that they think amusing or weird, or not so

unusual--the things that, um, it's always interesting. The one that I

recall that I was most interested in La _Y 0oseV and what it accomplished.

He had a dream--a dream to accomplish something, and he was tempted con-

stantly every day by the Pharoahs wife to, um, you talk about laying the

cards on the table, she laid herself on the bed and, um, he, um, ran away

from it, and in his haste to get away because he wanted to be loyal and

true to his dream and to the people who had trust in him, he left his

coat, and she was one of these women who had always had everything she

LUM 139A 12

wanted, or--spoiled and, uh, her ego just wouldn't take being turned dowxr

and so she went to her husband and she said, uh, you know, uh, this young

man that you think so much of, and Joseph was right at the prime of his

manhood, he was twenty years old, and it would have been very easy, from

what we understand about human nature, and sex, and this is a God-given

thing, and he also, I guess He--He didn't--He doesn't give us things that

we can't withstand, but it would have been very easy, and some people

would say, well, why didn't he do it, you know, because his life would

have been easier, but there was a more noble saling- for Joseph. If he had

done this, he probably would have, you know, enjoyed himself temporarily,

he'ld--got along with the lady of the house, if you want to say lady, and,

um, he had it made so far as materialistic things go. But this was not

Joseph's calling. He had a dream. Well, of course, the Pharaoh believed

his wife--that Joseph had come in and tried to seduce her, and he threw

him in jail, and he stayed there, uh, many years, and very friendly with

the JSuds and his inmates and so on, and even the--and the guards was

amazed at how--what--what serenity that he had that he served his time

with such--not know when really he was going to get out, if ever, with

such a pleasant, uh, kind of attitude. But I think, uh, seeing--seems

like with dreams there was something--faith,h, enters into it. I'm

not sure exactly how, but if you have a dream, there's times when it seems--

it's completely impossible, and you say, that's impossible, but you don't

really give up that idea. You don't know how you're going to get it, or

how you're going to obtain it, sometimes, but you never really give it

up, and this is the thing that keeps us going, maybe, in the hard times

of our life in cris s. He had a dream 'cause he wanted to get back with

his people) Ae was in a strange land and he loved his father and he

loved his brothers, even though they sold him out and betrayed him, he had

LUM 139A 13

forgiven them. His forgiveness was to such extent that, uh, maybe this

was why he was called/or selected to be the one who/not only saved

the people in'Egypt by interpreting the Pharoah's dream that they would

have seven years of plenty, and then seven years of famine, and so in the

seven years of plenty they saved up, you know, stored the warehouses and

all, and not only was he able to save a country from really perishing

to death, you know, because this is what would have happened, but the

soil didn't produce, or anything, and people from other countries--the

crops, the -food, and everything was so abundant, even in the famine years,

they Cthl--that people from other lands came to get wheat and grain

to make bread and things like this, and so, not only didhe save a country,

but he--God knows he didn't know why he was there. He must have been,

you know, the darkest hour of his life when they sold him, but even, we

can see, looking back, and seeing that he was going through this--all.

these hardships, his dream was being realized all the time. And maybe he

had to go through them in order to get it because he was able to keep

r1ef* alive during the famine, because they would come down, um,

periodically and get what they needed--staple goods and so on, and his

baby brother, he was able to see him, and he left, of course, the silver

cup, and the father, uh, of Joseph and who--I think his baby brother was

Benjamin knew something. He--he too was a sort of a psychic kind of

person, but he--he never really gave his identity openly, but they knew

that each knew, but they didn't, you know, come right out and say it. So

this is something like how dreams can help individuals. I'm speaking of

dreams, you know, that come to us in the night that help us with the dreams

of our life. It may not be at night--we can sleep any time, you know. Uh,

you remember the, ur, announcement that, uh, Christ was geaw be born was

announced as a--in a dream. So we can put--I think we can put faith in

LUM 139A 14

dreams, and we can believe in them, and certainly dare, if you--if you

choose to use that word, because, as I read earlier, it's a--it's, uh,

again I can say, maybe, love. It does take a little bit--a great deal,

perhaps, of courage to dream. Especially when all odds are against you,

because people think, you know, you're a little bit crazy, or, uh, shook

up in the head, or what have you. Dreams can help individuals, as well

as sharing in common, and this is what Lew Barton, I think, was trying to

bring out in a poem that he wrote simply called "Dreams." rAo. fulluw)-

"Dreams are not but mist and yearning. Not e -ojf2-\

they consume in their telling. Yet, their burning lights the heart, and

lifts the gloom. In them sinners soar to heaven, earthbound souls blast

off from Mars, paupers view the wonderols seven, jail inmates escape their

bars. Dreams may bring surcease from sorrow. Dreams refresh, recharge,

renew, and hope. .


T: All right, to not lose the train of thought of that since we did run out

of tape, let's go back to the beginning because it's only just a few

lines there, and as I said, the poem--the title of it is simply "Dreams."

"Dreams are not but mist and yearnings. Not ere worth--ere worth breath

they consume in their telling. Yet, their burning lights the heart, and

lifts the gloom. In them sinners soar to heaven--in them sinnerssb&Bito

heaven;.C Hees aEsinnervErh really dreams of being a better person, and

he latches on to the dream--there's touch of the Master's hand there, or

something like that, but when that happens, it's heaven.i And earthbound

souls blast off to Mars.\ (Well, we know that the word Mars was used there

for the I __, but the moon is a reality. Somebody had a dream

and we seem to have got, you know, that years ago--I mean, all the,songs

LUM 139A 15

were around the moon--Allegheny Moon, the moon is great importance to

the Indians. They told, predict weather, planting time, it was 44

calendar and many other things we can think of examples if we dwell on

them a little while.1 IEarth-bound souls blast off to Mars. (That's

rea iy-b g talked about and that's where dreams come from--is an idea5
O-i5eQ A4 Q0klo0i 4IkUoL-L ,# ka^Pp--
EC-I'U JPI;B lSo, maybe in our lifetime--things eta pretty fast--

we'll be taking a trip to Mars. Acw"r may one day honeymoon on the Moon.

Buy passage, true on over to Mars,and that's a dream sure enough, ain't

it? Is it impossible ? / Paupers view the wondeiC' seven. here's

supposed to be seven wonders of the world and paupers are poor people. They

rarely get out of their locality, and their, ur, poverty-ridpn, um, when

I think of this I think of perhaps the ghettos, um, I'm speaking of perhaps

the Black people because I've probably done a great deal of reading,and

done-pseen movies about the Indian people on reservations where they're

children's stomachs are swelled up because of malnutrition. How in the

hell can a person in a predicament like this have a dream? Well, I think
^ p~evr- S &LS)
it--the +itnt is-- i s, it's in God's plan because this is the only thing

that keeps them existing. "Cause it's gonna be better tomorrow and they

dream of that. It--it's a dream, it's a big dream. I think it's that way,

if it were not the dream of, like men in combat and things like this, of

getting back home and thinking, this is a dream, and knowing that at

minute by minute your life could be just, by the flick of a--that quick,

you d be no more. But you hold on and you, you know, you fight and you keep--

but you could give up, you know, but your dreams keep you going, 'cause

you want to get back. Jail inmates escape their bars. If any of you have

ever been to prison, and God knows some of them are really terrible places--

inhumane. There are some that are not, but if you've talked to a person that,

truly, as we say, quote, been really re-habilitated, there's bars all over

LUM 139A 16

that place. But they're free, they--they've escaped.p, because they

don't let--they're not a prisoner in their mind. And they have a dream

that they're not going to be behind those bars so therefore, for that time

they don't see them. They're working on other things, they may be studying,

they may be--they have jobs. Schools)even let. them get out of the prison grounds
to go to school. And so, maybe because they're in jail that they--a lot of

people get an education. That's a mixed blessing again, as J4seph's pre-

dicament. -E dreams are powerful thing Jail inmates escape their bars.A

It deesn' necessarily have to be a prison a jail as we think either.
L7te e ? A
it can be a prison of the min4 4t- can be 4e -pLy or prejudicA or some-

thing like this that we would literally commit I wan t to say in-

tellectual but it's not really that evpn ta-it's just common, pure common

horse sense suicide, we don't, we don't open our minds and we miss maybe

some of the beautiful, most beautiful relationships and the most beautiful

dreams. Because in sharing your dream or even of hearing someone else's

dream, when you're at your lowest c uld you know, bring you up, whatever

the predicament is. But, a person that is, um, a prisoner, he doesn't have

to be in E n But he can escape it, whatever it is. The prison of hater
po 'r,,
She prison of love, ix it's wrong, it's the wrong kind of love. Dealing with

the mind,-w-th the body, or the emotionA. It's possible, and itis really a

challenging thing to think about, to dream. To be re(&ased from the things
i P\ tc- o (4 TV-
that make ou feel trapped, in-jpsR o Dreams may bring surcease from

sorrow. Ad what could-a situation be A^ as.Z. as I read tse-thimg

I get mental images of things and I think this is what the poem seems Ra

me vs ^ ^A -ic or the way I interpret it, and everybody, interprets

differently, usually, sometimes there, it goes together but we come to a

04 our own experience, U-s different, unique, individualistic


LUM 139A 17

and this is why it's good in sharing, cause we may not, oaly have a

thought or even we might get a dream that we hadn't had before, or

even thought about.pfeams were catching, they're contagious. And it's not

impossible to have more than one at a time. Ayd certainly, when we're in

sorrow, we dream of the time when I can feel alive. whatever the sorrow,

there are so many things In life that make us feel the emotion of sorrow.

It can be a small thing or really a ea-V'C#4 t k-a1 ut< things $ ch

as death of a loved one it can be, un, maybe words spoken that shouldn't

have been spoken because um, but you still, you know, you dream, that this

might not be anymore. Dreams refreshy how. how do dreams refresh? You're

siUl, you know, you've really had it>I mean that, the whole world, you

wanna get off. There is corruption'( from high government to the lowest

and all this stuff. And what's worse we're part of it and probably just as
a/M4 -o,
corrupt If we were placed in the situations -4aa. )e have to hold on to

something, a f dream to think that, now this is not like all people, you

know, e'AI and I'm not that way. I don't want to be that way if I am.

So you dream of bein g, you know, to be refreshed, to be recharged. And I

see a battery A4tJ rdltlL SiA -fi $ fC recharged, 'cause you're

working with tape recorders sometimes you work on batteries, and you can

recharge them, you know but if you didn't have that recharger, they're no

good, you throw tbtm away, they're no good. But that recharge brings life/

back to something that supposedly was dead. And it, dreams renew, now how doe5
this come aMeeou they renew... thinking of the ?ontext of the, because

this ix has been on my mind, and I've been, I've been studying it and ah

um talk with Lew about going to explain about the Indianx people and all.

And I have been in a class while he's doing the teaching at another school

LUM 139A 18

and I think about, renewal jit came to my mind that we just, you know,

we've got an prisoners of war coming home from Vietnam, and already,

our government,\ ere in the United States, and just because you criticize

a thing that you believe in that doesn't mean that you're, yu know, really

against it completely. And ah, it'd be nice if people could realize this,

you know, bcia criticize something that they say or do that doesn't

mean that you, you really are against them, you knew. An t when I

criticize my count try, aW'by the same token I can say just as many favor-

able things about it I criticize this country and I think we're all

caught up in it and I use here the IndianT renewal. But you know there's

a time, and I have read a book, Bury My Heart At Wounded KIee and it has

many illustrations of famous chiefs and some of their wives, and you can

look in the eyes of these pictures, these photos and you can see the soul

just, there.it's sufferingV but the only way that this can be relieved is

through somebody everybody, all people, the'whole United States and even the

international, on an international scalnis that too big a SM9SMS dream?

Now it seems impossible, but it, you know, it's not. So when you think about

that, 1a dead like, you kno) and yn- renewok'cause eii dream yourt-

thinking that, it hasn't come about yet, but you feel renewed because you

can think of it and you can see, another day in your-mind, a better day.
do Vi
And what do you A& when you see a flower that's sort of droopy, and you')e

forgotten it for a day or twoy well, it's, it's almost gone, but you can

xJl some water in it and it renews it and you can almost in just a matter

of hours it comes up,* you know, straight again, especially if it's in the

sunlight. So these dreams can renew, even when we're in the most complex

LUM 139A 19

the most terrible, the most inhumane7 things that--that can happen to us

by other, seemingly good people, or people we have faith in, and then when

we find out that we can't--we can't anymore, we can't have faith in those

people, but we can't die. We have to find something to renew us, and it comes

from the mind--to dream. When I think of renewal, also I think about who

am I, and I don't think of -e just as a personal thing, I say it in the terms

of collectively, ur, like, who are we? Where are we going, and why? Maybe

we need a dream to get these questions answered, and we would be renewed.

One thing is to realize that perhaps there's something that needs to be

changed, and when you change a thing, it renews it--mabe something--i4ka

a.ma+e something outside--within or without. /Dreams inject hope and dim

tomorrow. 'One way's--everybody's gone to bed at night and hate--dreaded to

see tomorrow come 'cause something that they had to do, some unpleasant thing

that they felt. It might have been, um, to tell someone that, um, like a man

that had let someone go oe a job, or to have a talk that pulls your heart

strings clean out and lays 'em out on the table and faces yourself, and you

know it's coming, or face somebody else, and it's painful. To think about i,

you don't want tomorrow to come .but now how can you get over this dream,

because it is like an injection. It gives hope--the dream, and I've used

this example so many times it's worn out, but I still think it follows through.

You dare to dream and to face that thing that's in the dim tomorrow--face it

square and look it straight in the eye, with a dream that it's gonna be

changed. It's like taking a shot of penicillin. It hurts like hell while

that needle's in your arm, and if you get a doctor that's in pretty much of

a hurry, it might feel like he's giving it to you with a square needle, and

it lasts an eternity. person's in pai one minute can be days& but this

dream of facing the dim tomorrow, because of the dream you face it, and you

know in the long run the injection will do some good, because you dream--you

LUM 139A 20

hope, and when you have this, it happens. Light--dreams light new faith

when doubts break through. It seems to be the common fault of all of our

people to have doub to such an extent that they just absorb us. I mean it's--

it's like we're in a circle--an invisible circle that we can't break out--

again there we're imprisoned--a prisoner of our mind--of doubting, and we know

we're miserable because we don't like--we dontt like those doubts. It's a

feeling of maybe, yes, no, and it's in this, A.a, & _T indecision is

to--it's just not knowing, and that's in a sense a state of indecision but

dream -dream that whatever it is that's bringing those doubts, it's--it's

not gonna be, and then you'll have new faith, and I guess this is what I

was getting at a while ago, 'cause I've read this before and subconsciously

it was probably there, 'cause there is a definite connection between faith

and dreams, and I think it's significant that the poem--the two words is

new faith. Sometimes we have--it--it's hard to, you know, think about old

faith. Well, when it becomes old and-wornout, throw it away. Just, you

know, throw it out--throw it to the wind, as we say, or out the window, then

get a new set of ideas. Maybe we need to get a new dream, or at least change

it, or something so that we can have new faith, and we have to do this in

order to do away with the doubts, and to be refreshed and renewed, and re-

charged. Dreams re jve our daily tensions, and oh, God do we live in a

world of tensions. If we never came in contact with another person, within

a period of a week...it would be interesting if we wrote everything that

happened. I'm not sure it would be so interesting--it would be, uh, an ex-

perienaf. Just the tensions that we feel of sometimes looking out the window--

something we see, or, uh, like--like I saw--like I looked out the window and

I saw two cars collide, or, you know, impact--a wreck, and I thought IvaCl

{9 3 P a lot of traffic, or somebody might, you know, be killed, or

things like this b _ut you dream, even when you see them laying out there on

LUM 139A 21

the, you know--and this is where you say a prayer0 and why you say a prayer

is because you got faith in something somewhere, call it God, or whatever,

but it's there. Dreams bring sweet rest from labor's grind. When you're

tired and wore out--this was in The Sound of Music, you know. There was

seven kids in the family. A big storm came, lightning and everything--

when I'm fearful, think of the things--the overnZn telling the kids--

think of the things that's pleasant, and you'll have sweet dreams, and sleep.

Bring-they bring sweet rest from labor's grind, and I think it's good to--

to wish people, you know--we don't do it enough. We think it's, maybe a

little bit wishy, or mushy, or you know, wishy-washy, or some-7or even

weakness. We don't admit to each other that we dream, because if we talked

about it, we--we feel that right away they're, you know, it's impossible.

As we said earlier in the poem, it couldn't be done--it can't be done ber.se.

Why are you thinking about that h.g o a -that's

crazy, 'cause you--the people just, you know, won't go along with you, or

whatever it is that--that you're needing. IDreams give life brand new dimen-

sions. Now when you have a -- you-weary of life--our life--we live a life,

and when we get brand new dimensions, we're a new person--renewed, recharged,

and often relieved. 'Dreams bring the troubled--the troubled, peace of mind&

and oh, God hok--how it would be if you could get people to understand this-.

to 'go to mental institutions and see them so troubled, or not even to that

extent--just troubled about something--worried about their kids, worried

about what you're gonna--how you're gonna pay year next week's bills. There

again I think that faith comes in tkir dream. We see them paid. We dream

them, and somehow it happens, because we dared to dream. I/ believe in God

of glory. In His wisdom I believe that the God of glory in His wisdom

fashion dreams, partially to tell the story of His heaven, or so it seems.

I'm not sure that I agree with those two lines, except partially. Dreams

----- M

LUM 139A 22

can--and we know instances if we--if we believe the piEt A to be literally

true, or if it's a paradox, or myths. There's e-aasea there. Dreams can

completely tell the story of heaven, and they can furnishthe--the ammunition

and the daring-gall to adventure enough to keep dreaming and puttiag action,

and having faith to see the dream--the dream of life come about. And so,

yes, it seems that God does often reveal His will within our dreams. As we

said earlier, the bible gives many accounts of people having night dreams and

day dreams, and in many ammew-cases a persons night dreams gave them in-

sight ntlr reaching for it--the dream. Often we feel our dreams are impos-

sible, ba we talked about thatkput in our quest to obtain our dream, we

must not lose the dream of faith--to know that all things are possible with

God, and I think the following poem expresses at first doubt, and then hope,

and faith, and if you'll listen, or if you read it and if-you listen close,

or closely, I think that you might find love sprinkled through this next
poem, and so, to me this says that there has to be--maybe it is, sort of
a subtle thing&, a& maybe it is so glaring--like lights blinding us enough

that we can't see it, but certainly light, um, love is involved in our

dreams and when I say love, I don't necessarily mean,-_m physicalT or .
V*A 'APt
spiritual.. I don't-I -d-t talking about people. It can be love of a

goal that we want to do in life, um, or somebody-.not long ago weeA k u

f o to be a \gAf --that's a dream and not just to make a living

either, but as a way of life. It's the only help people-that was the bigger

thing--bigger than them. Okay, in the next poem, I mention again, first

there's doubt, then hope and faith, and if you're clever, you possibly

might dream about love, or see--or read between lines.zit's there. And, per-

haps you might see-also that love is the key to unlock those doors that have

kept us in imprisonment. We think of our people in place--in hard place,

-and hard predicaments and situations of life. We have to have love for our

LUM 139A 23

fellow man before we can bring ourself to act--to help them with their situa-
ot 't.
tion, to--if, you know, to get out and we can even talk about it on a more

impersonal--I mean more personal basis, but I think the basic idea is there.

I hope so. I--I meant--I'm willing to make that point that love is the key

to unlock those doors that have kept us in imprisonment. This is where we

say, well, I'm just a nobody, you know, and--and that big wheel up there is

not gonna listen to me because I'm just a little tiny fiew and already,
V avt ^bt
see, you've got the doubts creeping in, and if ye .-g ot the faith and--and

even--you've lost the hopepjut, as it was said earlier, something about if

you appeal to a person's conscience, he's got it. Go knock on that door and

see if it'll be unlocked. So many people are scared to dream, because they

think that door won't be opened and maybe it won't be. There's a lot of

people would have found that Taowing Joseph as--Joseph in the bible of the

story--the opportunity that he had with the Pharoah's wife, that would have

been their highest dream. That was--that would have beenbut uet a shallow

dream 'cause the higher, the high--the highest we can dream, speaking of

love, is this: when we settle for dreams that, uh, you know, that we know

really doesn't fit into the concept of human consciousness, and it may come

and go, but if it doesn't fit into the concept then this is when imprison-

ment comes, be it war, death, what have yoq-4 people, all people, but

our people here-particularly the Lumbee people, need to dream. They need

to dream more and have the faith and the hope. And many have, but we still
need more of our people to dream. Many have and they done things that the

thousands said was impossible and we can site some of those: Clayton City

Hall, that we never can beat that; and a few other things. That is earth-

shaking, and let us not forget that even the simple things is really earth-

shaking where dreams are concerned. The basic human needs of life--to dream

for a better way of life can be earth-shaking even. I challenge you as American

LUM 139A 24

Indians, as Robeson County Indians, as Lumbee Indians to dream. Find your

dream, pick it and stick with it, and act upon it, and this is--and when

you act upon it, you act with faith, hope and love, and that's what opens

the door and I ask you, I request, I challenge you, and ask you to share--

to share this adventure with me as expressed in the following poem. This

person who wrote it was like the man who was in a car wreck.we was totally

blind and had a part education, and he thought there was no way that he could

complete it. It was impossible. It was a dream, but it was impossible at

a certain time in his life, but yet he never, you know, let go of it com-

pletelyrsomething like that, and this poem 9- a paradox is like that, and

that's the way we think, and that's the way life is. (Ptnllmfer)--

1o0 ream the -mpossible ream, to fight the unbeatable foe, to bear

with unbearable sorrow, to run where the brave dare not go, to right the

unrightable wrong, to be better far than you are, to try when your arms are

too weary to reach the unreachable star. This is my quest, to follow that

star no matter how hopeless, no matter how far,- to be willing to give/when

there's no more to give, to be willing to die so that honor and justice

may live, to be willing to die so that honor and justice may live.\ This

is really a paradox, but I think we can see. We can think about wha we have

salvationthat requiring death, so that honor and justive live, and it even

happens every day. And I know, if I'll be true to this glorious quest that

my heart will lie peaceful and calm when I'm laid to my rest?\ To dream of

death might sound morbid, but we know that someday it will be. It's inevi-

table, but to dream of death in this--the way this poem depicts it, I don't

think is morbid, because the way we view death is the way we view life. /To

be willing to give when there's no more to give, to be willing to die so that

honor and justice may live, and I know if I'll only be true to this glorious

quest, that my heart will lie peaceful--that my heart will lie peaceful and

LUM 139A 25

calm when I'm laid to my rest. And the world will be better for this, that

one man) scorned and covered with scars, ill t:llG with his last ounce of

courage to reach the unreachable star.; 4End-meof aa Today we are living

in one of the most exciting eras in history. As participants let us dream

that we may have a sense of purpose in relation to it. End of article.

B: Thank you Mrs. Taylor. We'll just end the whole thing with a song called




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