Title: Interview with Clyde Hunt (August 28, 1973)
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007125/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Clyde Hunt (August 28, 1973)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: August 28, 1973
Spatial Coverage: Lumbee County (Fla.)
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00007125
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 138

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Full Text


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and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of

Copyright, 2005, University of Florida.
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LUM 138A

Mr. Clyde Hunt (H)
Pembroke, North Carolina

Interviewer: Lew Barton (I)
August 28, 1973

Typed by: Paula Whidden

I: 7 This is August 28, 1973. I'm Lew Barton recording for

the History Department of the University of Florida. I'm

here in my home in Pembroke, North Carolina, and with me

is a gentleman who's consented to give me an interview.

Sir, would you mind telling us what your name is?

H: Clyde Hunt.

I: Mr. Clyde Hunt. We're very grateful to you for granting

us this interview. Do you live here in Pembroke?

H: Yeah. 71.r..

I: Uh, where in Pembroke? Parker Street?

H: T iu 4i-s over there at Goaugh.

I: Uh, how do you spell that, I wonder?

H: G-o-a-u-g-h.

I: Oh, yeah. I've lived here in Pembroke and don't know all

the streets. That's kind of a shame, isn't it? How long

have you lived here?

H: Since '47. That's been what? Twenty...

I: Since 1947?

H: Yeah.

I: That's a long time. You live right here in this part of


LUM 138A 2

H: Been here practically out of the way for five years~away

over on the farm. And excuse that five years, livej

the rest of it in Pembroke.

I: Uh-huh. How much family do you have, Mr. Hunt?

H: Just me and my wife now. Children is all married.

I: Could you tell us their names?

H: Why, yes. The oldest boy is named Verdell.

I: Vardell?

H: Verdell, not var- but ver-.

I: Uh-huh. V-e-r-d-e-l-l.

H: That's right.

I: I see.

H: And the oldest girl, her name's Mary Frances. And the

second girl, her name's Hannie Pearl. And second boy,

his nameDavid Earl.

I: Could you give us their ages? You know, that's always

a hard thing for somebody to ask me to give the ages of

my children because their ages are always changing, you

know. And sometimes I have to stop and think a little

bit when they ask me that.

H: Well, I have to do that a lot of times myself. Let's

see, R-i' tR-l was born in '31. That would give him

forty-two, wouldn't it?

I: Uh-huh.

H: That's the oldest boy, forty-two years old.

I: I didn't ask you how old you are, did I?

LUM 138A 3

H: I guess in a few days I'll be sixty-six.

I: Ah, that's good. You're a young man right g .

H: And the oldest girl, she's right at four years younger.

Let's see now, that would put herkthirty-eight, wouldn't


I: Uh-huh.

H: Thirty-eight, and the other girl, let's see, how old is

she? Was born in '38. '48, '58, '68...

I: Now which one was this that was born in 1938?

H: That was the third one. Her name's Hannie Pearl. And

David Earl, then, was born in 1947. And Donald Robert

was born...I reckon in '52.

I: In 1952.

H: There's four years apart between him and...

I: That was which one now? That was born in '52?

H: Donald Robert.

I: Donald Robert.

H: If I'm right now, he was born in '52. There's four years

difference between him and David Earl and David Earl was

born in '47. And that was...'47, '48, '49, '50, '51.

And the baby girl, to tell you the truth, I don't remember

what year she was born but she's now eighteen.

I: And how old is your wife?

H: She'll beJt -two in November.

I: And her name is Mary?

LUM 138A 4

H: That's right.

I: Who was she before you married her, Mr. Hunt?

H: Before we was married she was an Oxendine.

I: Uh-huh.

H: Her father and mother was the name of Solomon and(ueen


I: Uh-huh. Was she born around...Pembroke too?

H: Yeah, fO n ** Born in what we call Black Ankle.

That's where both of us was born 1 V J

I: Uh-huh. Is this around Lumberton there somewhere?

H: That's down below Rowland.

I: Below Rowland.

H: Yeah.

I: Uh-huh. It's near the South Carolina line there?

H: Yeah. What they call Black Ankle, they call it one mile

from there to the state line where we lived for a long

time. One mile from there to the state line, and they

always called the place--I don't know why they named it

that--they just called it Black Ankle. And my wife, she'a

be sixty-two in November.

I: Uh, where did she go to school?

H: We all went to a place--of course, there ain't no school

there now--what they call Piney Grove.

I: Piney Grove.

HL There's a church there now by the name of Piney Grove.

LUM 138A 5

I: There used to be an Indian school there, didn't there?

H: That's right.

I: gPiney Grove, by the way, is out from Lumberton.

H: There's one Piney Grove i 0 ) some-

where in there. And this here, I believe they call

this Piney Grove Number Two.

I: Uh-huh.

H: So they call it...

I: So there's two Piney Groves.

H: Yeah. Black Ankle.;;mostly call that Piney Grove ar

Black Ankle. Mostly calL that. AndPembroke...

I: We know now where that name came from. I mean, when

people talk about Black Ankle they mean...they mean a


H: Oh, yeah. It was a place and that's what people still

call it nowadays, Black Ankle. Been that ever since I

was a kid and that's what people still call it, Black

Ankle. They say, "Where you live?" I say, "Well, I

live in Black Ankle."

I: Well, there are lots of places like that around. There's

a place in Lumberton called the Bloody Bucket, used to

be. Uh...

H: Yeah. I've read of that. I never saw it but I read of


I: I don't know how names get attached to places and to people

LUM 138A 6

but they do sometimes. What do you do? I understand

you're not able to work any now, are you?

H: That's right.

I: You're retired. Where does your wife work?

H: At the University.

I: She works at the University?

H: Yeah. Works out there. Her and your wife works together.

I: Yeah. Yeah, my ex-wife1now, I'm afraid. They do maid

service out there? They work on the ground crew, or

with what they call the ground crew?

H: Well now, I don't know what you call it. They have to

see that the walls is clean, though. The bathrooms is

supposed to be cleaned. House inspector you might call

it, or the commode room, lavatories and all that kind of

stuff is all supposed to be in number one shape. That's

her job, you might say.

I: You're both Lumbee Indians.

H: Right.

I: Uh, Mr. Hunt, are you proud of being an Indian?

H: I am.

I: I am, too. I didn't have anything to do with it but I'm

still proud. C9^

H: Well, that's me, just like myself1 I didn't have a thing

in the world to do with coming into this world, but I'm

glad I was born an Indian.

LUM 138A 7

I: Right. What do you think of the different problems that

the Indians have? Do you think out people are improving?

H: Yes. A lot of improvement made since I moved here twenty-

some years ago.

I: Just what kind of changes have you noticed? I mean...

H: Well you see, whenever I moved here twen-, in '47, they

only had...they had a high school and elementary and all

that. Now they have a junior and a senior high, isn't it?

I: That's right.

H: And have a:what you call a University. Have all of that.

Well now, right here where I'm staying, when I moved there

it was woods.

I: Just all woods around, woods.and.

H: And now it's cleared up, it's fit to put a house on it.'

I: I've heard that at one time where Pembroke is now sitting

this was a swamp. This was a pond. Said this used to be

a pond. Mr. M. M. Folger told me that once long years ago.

Do you think this is true?

H: Yes. Cliff Sampson told me aboutchere, oh, way back in

the forties he run that store where they got that long

barbershop now, and he tell me about, oh, back out there

from him what we call ponds, you know. Said you could

go out there and get fish. Catch fish out offhere.

I: Right here in town.

H: Right here in town.
H: Right here in town.

LUM 138A 8

I: Well, it seems like a pond sometimes now when it rains

a lot, doesn't it?

H: Yeah, Lord.

I: I think they're doing something about draining it better,

maybe. )

H: Well, one of our troubles is that we

got the wrong mayor on /

I: Do you think we're gonna get a good mayor next time? It's

about time...

H: I hope we will.

I: It's about time to vote another mayor in, isn't it?

H: It is. It's time! This mayor that we have now, he's a

fine man because he -has been all that concerned and

helping it I t I1 k o i_ as far as

I know. I take him to be a fine man, but he's not a


I: He's a good man but not a good mayor.

H: That's right.

I: Well, I don't think he's gonna run again, I understand.

I heard him say he was not at one time. So he won't be

running again. Who do you think would make a good mayor?

H: I'll tell you the truth...

I: It's hard to pick one, isn't it?

H: It is.

I: If I'd run would you vote for me?

H: I'd as soon vote for you as anybody else.

LUM 138A 9

I: Well, you're very nice. I'd vote for you, too

H: You see, the mayor we got now, t l uu

him is _-____ he don't put his men on
the road like he ought to. You take that mayor> I don't

know whether he pays any attention to it or not, but he'll

get up in the road and push the dirt to the ditch, what we

call the road ditch. Push the dirt inA Well, that ditch

is there to drain that surface water on off, you know.

And if you clean it out and keep it clean that water will

have a way of going. By pushing this mess into it, all that

garbage into the ditch, well, that stops up the __v.

I: Well, this town is really growing, isn't it?

H: Yeah, it is.

I: It used to be an Indian town but you couldn't rightly call

it that now, could you?

H: No.

I: Since the University's grown so much and so many people have

moved in, I guess we've doubled our population just about in

the past few years, add=that's not counting the students on

campus, the enrollment. And we're getting some new businesses

in. Did you know we had a Peiiy Wigg; l store now? Just

opened up the other day.

H: Yeah, I know we got a Woods and a Piggily

Wiggily and a new bank all combined there.

I: Yeah.

H: Here's the bank, here's h4e-Wood's, and here's the Pigg*ly


LUM 138A 10

I: We've got Hardee's now.

H: Yes.

I: Then, people are moving in, too, aren't they?

H: Yeah. Yeah, you...whenever I was able to -be out in the

yard and messing around with the flowers \jt 4 -r try

to keep the grass out of them, somebody'd come by often

asking me do I know where they could find an empty house.

People's moving in and still wanting to move in.

I: Uh-huh. There seems to be a lack of rapport between the

University and the Indian community. I've heard some

Indians say that the students and professors and other

people who come here won't trade with them. Do you think

this is true?

H: I wouldn't know what -P JM S f df f". I don't

have no...

I: Do they act friendly toward you?

H: What of them I've been around with\ They're just as nice

to me as human beings...as I expect human beings to be,

even on the road. Maybe I'm going to town or they're

going to school. Always "good morning" to you or "how

are you this morning?* or whatever C b A P"Ak sa tk d twD?

I: I met a little fourteen-year-old girl on the street the

other day and she...I didn't know she knew me, and she

said, "Mr. Lew Barton, I want to pin a flower on you,"

and she came up and she put a flower on me. I thought

she was selling flowers and I asked her, I said, "How

LUM 138A 11

much is the flower?" She says, 'Oh, I'm giving it to you."

She says, "I'm glad to meet you."

H: 'Aight, see? Of course, now, anywhere we go anywhere we

be, we're gonna find somebody mnAh kt^ t> 6,

sn~eds you might call it.

I: Right. So, if you don't speak you needn't expect the

other person to speak.

H: Right. That's right.

I: People are very friendly if they pass you on the road here,

our people especially. They'll throw out their hand, they'll

wave at you even if they're on a car passing you...

H: Yeah!

I: But now, in other towns in this state this doesn't happen.

H: No, you can't...

I: But our people are very friendly, very outgoing.
go Irdi
H: You can't in R4s4a&d and Red Springs. I ain't got no use
+"5p 7 \
for neither one of tm places.)

I: Why is this, Mr. Hunt? Do you think they're prejudiced

against Indians?

H: Yeah, I know they is.

I: You think, yeah...

H: To tell you the truth about the thing I don't know whether

they've changed j r or not. It's been a long time

since I was there. But used to be a drug store on this

side of the railroad that they wouldn't sell an Indian

a cone of cream. ..4 II I

LUM 138A 12

They wouldn't sell you no cones, claimed they was out

of cones. Well, you could go out and hang around and

watch, pretty soon you see a white person coming out

with a cone. Ou o e- eS.J

I: Do you think they're changing in their attitudes any

now? Or are they always gonna be this way?
H: I believe(myself,'I believe they're gonna always be

this way. I got a brother lives down there. He said

there was some of them, they was stuck-up people,

you know, f1O all of them. He said now, there

is some of them just as nice to him as his own people.

But there was some of them that'was just as stuck-up

as they can Be'. Now a man, he lives here. Well, when

he was alive he lived here, he's dead now. And he'd eat

at my-brother's house, my brother would eat at his

house just like a neighborhood should be. And this man's

girl works there in that A there in Ruw and she

leaves her kid, little old fellow4 not old enough to go

to school, she leaves him with my brother's wife. And now,

if he don't behave himself, she put the wood to him.

I: They put the wood to him if he doesn't behave.

H: That's right.

I: Uh-huh.

H: And she come every now and then.

I: Our people still believe in this kind of punishment, many

LUM 138A 13

of them, don't they? I mean like when you and I were

coming along, fy grandmother would take my pants down.

I mean she said she didn't want to whip clothes, she

wanted to whip the boy. And she'd make me crawl out

of my pants and she got her a little keen whip and

she would really...well, she whipped me once like this...

UH: 1 UtV. i3> ."* I4W Jh4^iS

I: My mother got very angry about it, but she didn't dare

say a thing to her mother about it, because Grandma

would probably have put it on Mama. Mama didn't say

a thing. She fussed all the way home.

H: Now, I say this. Now, I could be wrong in my way of

looking at it, but my way of seeing it nowadays is

that we don't raise children, we-let children raise


I: We're not as stern disciplinarians as we used to be,

are we?

H: Now, you take used to...

I: We're not as strict.

H: ...if my mother wanted to go to town or somewhere

like that, somewhere where she didn't want a bunch

of children following her, she'd leave we children

over to the neighbor's house. "All right, if they

don't behave theirselves, you put the wood on them."

LUM 138A 14

Well, if she had to whip one of those, when she come

back she told my mother. And if we didn't mind when

we got home we'd get another whipping for disobedience.

I: If you got whipped in school and went home and told


H: That's right...

I: ...you'd get another one.,.0.h, my.

H: ...you'd have to get another one right there. Back in

school in my day if they caught you trying to dance or

something like that, they tore your ,' in A up.

Well, nowadays they tell them, try to teach them, you

know, to dance and things of the kind.

I: Uh-huh. How about dating practices when you were coming

up? Would they call bedtime?

H: Yeah.

I: What time would they call bedtime?

H: Oh, nine o'clock was bedtime.

I: Nine o'clock?

H: Yes, sir.

I: The guy had to be getting out, too, when they said bed-

time they meant it.

H: When they said bedtime that means you A sit around there

right on, it meant you got to be getting a(move on it) or

the family, the old folks would get afoul of you. I know

I went with one girl offand on for eight years. They

LUM 138A 15

claimed her daddy and mother was awfully _-_, but

I never did have a minute's trouble in the world with

neither one of them. The old man, he'd be sitting out

under the shade when I'd go over on Sunday evenings

and stop and talk with him a while. He always 644f

when the sun was up, let's see, well that's right, you

go in the house. The children's in there and I got to

go 1d6 Well, I could go in there and stay until

nine o'clock. Well, I didn't wait for them to call

bedtime. I mean, I tried to keep that in my mind, just

before nine to pull out.

I: You weren't gonna get caught up on that snag, were you?

H: No, sir. Now, that old man, he was as nice to me as he

could be and everybody practically called him a WU&aa

man, but lice, to me. I tried to treat him like he was

I: Uh, you were telling me...sometime ago we were talking

andayou were telling me about being sick. Uh, could

you tell us what it is that's wrong with you? I mean,

uh, I know you haven't been able to work for a long

time, years now.

H: Uh, the doctor said hypertension was one thing.

I: Hypertension.

H: If you know what that is, I don't know what it is kyse/i

LUM 138A 16

I: Yes.

H: And the heart. I've a a _____ of

the heart.

I: I see.

H: And I have a / in here with this old -I ld

Call it water, they call it water in the place,

you know, get in there and well my leg. It'll justro

"" out and hurt so blessed bad(I can t stand) b -W

SHe give me a shot and got that water out

and now I'm normal now.

I: Uh-huh.

H: Yeah, I've been disabled. I (worked)with t2 you

know, ten and a half years.

I: Uh-huh, with Dr. Brooks?

H: Yeah, and I got away from him...

I: Dr. Martin L. Brooks.

H: Yeah. I been away from him four years, I reckon. The

day that he brought me home, he didn't tell me that day

but he's told me since then, the day that he brought me

home and put me to bed he didn't have no hope for me

at all.

I: Uh-huh. He's a good doctor, isn't he?

H: But he knew he could do me just as much good as they'd

do me at the hospital, if I'd do as he commanded. And

so I said, well, I've always tried to obey him, the

LUM 138A 17

doctor so 0 %* he

put me in the bed and went on off and stayed about a half

an hour and come back and checked me again.

.W"&A ( 0 14C T. By Jis grace I'm...by the doc-

tor's help and the Lord's help, too. Of course, we all

have to come to the Lord.

I: That's right.

H: 'Know these things. I am doing extra well to what I have

-TA i I've had some mighty tough days

and I've had some good days.

I: Mr. Hunt, how much education did you get?

H: Seventh grade.

I: Seventh grade, uh-huh. And you told me where you went to

school, didn't you? They've certainly changed a lot in

education, too, haven't they?

H: Yes, Lord. They don't even have a school there now. The

children now from back from Piney Grove, what we used to

call Piney Grove, they go to Ash Pole &r"el and over

to L v I cAe- O I believe. Places like that.

I: Do you think that we're going to...are we ever going to

have complete integration or is it always gonna be this

token sort of thing? Do you...

H: Well, I feel like this young race of people that's coming

along now, in a few years to come they'll be just like me

LUM 138A 18

and you.
I: Uh-huh. You think people are gonna forget about race.
H: Yeah. If you'll notice now, most of the young people's
alre dy foot it.in their actions. You'll find anywhere
in the home / lk e7- A ;msIf/, 4e

A' oiw 4Y4* ;i e//// /fe{ 1y s.fP Svon
be off with an Indian as be off with a white man.
I: Uh-huh.
H: Cu cia r, it got to
where we could go to school like 6 well now,
that's 4 I 4 f iM.# And if it ever did
get to where white people could go to Pembroke ius

they was going. Because Pembroke has the best athletics,
I believe he said, + .A school .qt" *
A/d it was a long time ago that blacks couldn't go
ja r schools........................................

I: Uh, this is Side Two of the interview with Mr. Hunt. Uh,
Mr. Hunt, when we ran out of tape just now, I believe we
were talking about the children and we were talking about
interracial marriages and we lost that on our tape because
we ran out of tape. I believe you told me that four of
your children married whites.
H: Right.
I: And you don't think people feel bitter about this the way

LUM 138A 19

they used to, do you?

H: No. They don't live here. Where they live at they're

treated just as nice likeAeverybody else is treated.

They're all in Alabama, t (tft4 t^tf ansK .

I: Uh-huh.

H: I've been to ae of them's homes and they...Mary and

Frances's bot and man, they act like they was the gladdest

in the world to see me. They call me "chief" all the


I: Oh, boy. That's a...I think that's a pet name. It's

supposed to be complimentary, I think, when people call

you chief. I don't like to be called chief because...

I'd like to be a chief though. I sure would like to

be chief of a tribe. I'd enjoy that. Uh, you say four

of the children married whites.

H: That's right.

I: Now, we were talking about Jo Ann. Jo Ann is a very

beautiful girl and, uh...they don't stay around here

now, do they?

H: No, they're in Florida.

I: Uh-huh. Did you...what did you do when you were coming

up? Did you farm?

H: Yeah.

I: Farming's changed a lot, too, hasn't it?

LUM 138A 20

H: Yeah, Lord. Whenever farming changed I was disabled

to farm. I couldn't make it. Doctor said thatswas-what WO

1^ matter with me, I'd kill myself working. He said from

16 to 20 hours a day. That's just the way he put it.

He said, "You've been working from 16 to 20 hours a

day and a man just can't live like that," he says. He

said, "Now, if you'll work eight hours, sleep eight

hours and rest eight hours, you'll last a long time.

But the way you been working you're gonna soon fail."

And I did soon go.

I: Well, people...you had to walk behind a plow...

H: That's right.

I: No tractors or anything like that. Now, the tractors

do most of the work and there just isn't much for

people to do...

H: Well, one man now farms as much hisself as maybe four

or five used to farm, you know. I was plowing with a

mule and plow.

I: This used to...do you remember when they said that

Robeson County had the greatest mule population in the

world? There were more mules in this county than in

any other county.

H: About forty acres, taiu forty to fifty acres was about

all a manzcould: stand to save his life with a mule.

LUM 138A 21

I: And that kept him going from Monday till Friday.

H: And that kept him going from Monday till Friday, some-

times Saturday night.

I: That's hard work.

H: And nowadays, they use tractors that can roll over

fifty acres takY.t to tend...what we used to

tend, the largest, eight and ten acres of tobacco

to the farm, you might-call it, what they called at

that time a two-horse farm. What we used to tend

with mules and things, that was all we could handle.

Well, nowadays they take those tractors and they work

from ten to twenty-five and thirty acres of tobacco,

T-kA* 6 tyu see.

I: Did you ever hire out and plow for anybody?

H: Yeah, I did with-my uncle. I stayed with him about

cv'tk how many years.

I: How much would they pay a plowboy when you were coming


H: Let's see. Wf efAtlD yPg v acL w /ii <

I: I remember plowing, and I'm not as old as you, but I

remember plowing for fifty cents a day. Is that about

what they paid when you were coming up?

H: That's about it, that's about it.

I: And you were darned lucky if you collected that,7 -

LUM 138A 22

H: That's right. I was telling the boys here a few days


I: So I didn't plow any more than I could help.

H: The boys here a few days ago, talking about work. I

said, "Well, you boys have had luxuries all your days."

I said, "You take me. I've walked as far as from here

to Ha rper's Ferry and worked for fifty cents a day.

Five cents an hour." I said, "Now, you can't get nobody

to do nothing for you for fifty cents an hour."

I: That's about four miles to Harper's Ferry.

H: I said, "And I was glad to get the job, glad to get

that fifty cents." Somebody was talking to me about

Hoover's administration and they wished it was back

again. I said, 'th, I don't." "Why? We could get so-

and-so-and-so for such-and-such a thing then." I says,

"Yeah. I could buy flour all I wanted for fifty cents

a bag," I said, "But where was I gonna get the fifty


I: That's the problem. That's the crux of the whole matter.

H: Where was I gohna get the fifty cents to buy the flour


I: And so, if people hadn't raised gardens and hogs, cows

and chickens and things like that, they would have starved,

LUM 138A 23

wouldn't they?

H: Yeah! We'd have starved.

I: Did you ever see what they called a Hoover buggy?

H: Yeah. Went on it many times.

I: Have you ever ridden on it? This is when President

Herbert Hoover went into the White House...
H: Yeah. And they called them Hoover buggies.

I: ...and the Great Depression and people blamed the Great

Depression on the President.

H: That's right.

I: And they named those buggies...

H: Hoover buggies.

I: They parked their cars and took the back wheels out of

the car, and the axle, and made carts out of them. They

couldn't even buy gas to run their cars.

H: That's right. That's right. "fwS r-'M5

I: But they did have mules and horses, so they just hitched

them to the...

H: Well, these horse traders you might call them, they, you

know, they had it figured to where that they could...I

reckon they must have borrowed money from thebank, they

had it figured where you would buy a mule from them and

pay so much down, then they'd give you so many years to

pay for the mule, you see.

LUM 138A 24

I: Uh-huh.

H: And practically everybody had stock that wanted any.

I: And if you weren't able to feed yourself while you

were raising that crop, you could get a crop lien,

couldn't you?

H: That's what they called it, crop lien. They give you...

I: Do you think some people got rich on the...

H: They put in so much...

I: By furnishing them...

H: They put in for so much furnished to make the crop,

maybe from fifty dollars on up to--it was according

to the family, you know.

I: Uh-huh.

H: And they had what they called punch cards. I believe

run from two to ten dollars. And you buy two dollars'

worth, they'd punch two out of this. If you f'

five dollars' worth they'd punch the five out. And

so on, they'd punch these cards, you know

Jt~t' LtC'#itss .
I: What happened if a farmer didn't make enough to pay out

of debt at the end of the year?

H: They just took what they had and left him in the hole.

I: Take his mules and plows and stuff?

H: Take everything.

I: Take everything...

LUM 138A 25

H: 4A/^ nrc oir A'" S t

I: Uh-huh. Do you think they charged high interest,

finance charges eA4'" that stuff?

H: Ten pe+ent. Yeah, it was high then.

I: That was high then. They charge more than that now.

H: Yes.

I: I think a Master Chargeqyou pay about twenty petent

for a Master Charge card. Twenty percent per year.

H: Well, they charged you then ten percent. I know in

'38, '38? '39. :39 I made a crop lien for fifty

dollars. Well, I had a...they always called me

stingy, I had a little bit of money. I made a crop

lien for fifty dollars and they give me that card

just like I was telling you, the punch card 47gt

t(/Wv- how much the numbers, the amount that

you traded is fifty dollars, When I got my state-

ment that year fromfthe store, I owed them forty-one

dollars and ten cents.

I: Boy, that was cutting it close, wasn't it?

H: U ATR pI I had a little bit of money

and I didn't throw it away.

I: Uh-huh.

H: That what I had to have and didn't have enough on

the card to get it with, I paid for it cash.

I: Uh-huh.

LUM 138A 26

H: That's why people call me sting, you know. I always...

I: You weren't stingy, you were just thrifty.

H: That's right.

I: You were wise in handling your money.

H: I always had plenty on the table, even if it wasn't nice.

Even if it wasn't steak and stuff like that, I had

plenty of it. I know children, I know some people right

today who say they'd do anything in the world f

he. i Ui t.

I: Uh-huh. Well this is one...

H: But I appreciate it to a day.

I: Well, this is one way no Indian is stingy when it comes

to giving a meal to somebody. Do you any body who

wouldn't? Do you know any Indian person who wouldn't

give you a meal?

H: No, I don't. No, I don't. W Al

Indians i- /6v-I wi4t 4f nY!o17/

I: And they would divide with anybody, you know. If some-

body comes up at mealtime and they say come on and have
some. Come on and have dinner. They mean it, don't


H: That's right.

I: It's not just manners. They really mean it. Last week

LUM 138A 27

we had a busload of kids came from Brooklyn, New York,

and they invited me to spend the day with them. They

wanted to see the Lumbee Indians and different places

and they wanted me to travel with them. They were

about fifteen years old, fifteen, sixteen and along,

and I had dinner with them. They said, "Now, you

might not like our food but I want you to eat with us

today." So I ate with them. They did everything out,

they camped out and it was lots of fun. They wanted

to swim in the Lumbee giver. I went with them over

there. It was nice meeting them. They were integrated.

There were some Puerto Ricans. There were some black

kids Jhtt WAS ft cwA;P J..

H: That's what I was speaking of a while ago, this young

race of people, it finally grew out of them. But now

these old white people that we've got, they've still

got that prejudice) in them.

I: You don't think they're gonna change, huh?

H: No, I don't think they're gonna change.

I: Well, I guess we'll justihave to live andthope. Can you

remember when you went to the theater in town they would

send you upstairs if you were an Indian They had three

divisions. They had...

H: Yeah, I remember that mighty well.

LUM 138A 28

I: Uh-huh. White people would sit on the bottom floor and

the Indians would sit in one... '

H: Indians U ieD P upstairs with a$n4i between


I: Uh-huh.

H: Yeah, I remember that. How come me to know it, TI went

to a theater down in Rowland hunting somebody or other,

and went up there looking for'em. That's how come me

to know it. I didn't fool with theaters then. The

fellow that built the theater, another Indian told him, says,

"I wouldn't spend-fifty-cents to-go in your theater. If

you give me a ticket free of charge, I wouldn't go in."

I: \"just didn't enjoy the show.

H: I don't know why. The way you got it built, the white

and darkies, the way you got with them that the Indians

and darkies all oat the same way. Says, when you

separate the thing you give the Indians somewhere to

go 4 c. 1Ei r gtro 2 4(44.

I: They had three-way...uh, that was three-way segregation.

There used to be a little boy...you know, they couldn't

always tell who was Indian and who wasn't. Sometimes

some of our people would sit down on the bottom floor

with white people. And so, one time they had the little...

the only way they could always tell, they had a little

LUM 138A 29

Indian boy and the little Indian boy could tell. But

you could give him-a quarter or something and he would

let you go down "pass for white," as they call it.

Some of the kids liked to do that once in a while. Not

many of them did, but they did it on occasion. Where

were you when the Klan came through? Do you remember

when the Klan came over here in 1958? Well, I'm gonna

conclude this tape. As Mr. Hunt told us a while ago,

he has an ailment which causes him to fall asleep. So

I talked to him and he finally fell asleep on me, and

he isn't talking anymore. And so, I'll conclude this

interview right here because Mr. Hunt did go to sleep

and he's sitting in the chair. He was very kind to

come in and talk with me. This is Lew Barton signing



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