Title: Interview with Moore Hall (March 5, 1973)
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007112/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Moore Hall (March 5, 1973)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: March 5, 1973
Spatial Coverage: Lumbee County (Fla.)
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00007112
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 125

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LUM 125 AB
DATE: MARCH 5, 1973

S: They're not just scarce positions anybody

can 4e aJ ^ \t\ o4 -- And in this sense I think

there's something very very important to a lot of Indians, and very

very good about the way that they got it. Just one other thing that

I want to talk about, and that making a living for Indiansp,, .1_j),1

Now I think it's important, and perhaps you know. Uh, the Indians

came here, came to Baltimore in the Second World War, and they were

then the defense industry, Baltimore being a major industrial center.

And really, as you go north from uh...Robeson County, it's the first

big industrial center that you're going to hit. And I suspect that's

one of the reasons why so many stopped off in Baltimore and stayed

there. Baltimore uh, really is quite a diversified industrial com-

munity. It uh, was once a port city, a major port, and still is a

major port, but it also has many other things. A big GM plant, a big

Bethlahem plant, it has a lot of small industries, it was well known

for the needle trades. But the big thing that Indians went into

after the Second World War, was something else happening in many

cities throughout the United States. The building boom. There was a

great deal of building going on in Baltimore, and many Indians when

they came there, went into the building trade. Now there really are

two uh, parts of the building trade. There were then, and probably




S: ...still are. There's new construction, and there's the remodel-

ing of old buildings. The unions then controled the new construction.

And the remodeling, the unions in Baltimore didn't bother with.

This was left for the non-union people, and that's where the Indians

went. What this really means is that Lumbee Indians really took much

lower pay w- d r. than the union men were getting

in the new construction. Their pay was considerably less. But it was

still quite good pay. And I sort of feel quite strongly that the

Indians generally in Baltimore really are not at all.atzthe uh.,.

poverty level. They were not three years ago, and they-still are not

now. They're really not, uh, they're far from the unskilled type of

many who are migrants to cities. They're people who really picked up

the building trade skills, and a lot of other skills, and have done

reasonably well in Baltimore. The point is though, even if they're

not at the bottom, they only do moderately well in the city. I want

to say one other thing about the uh, work of the Indians in Baltimore.

One thing that struck me very strongly a few years ago, and has-come

out particularly this summer. A lot of Indians...of the Indians have

joined unions. The unions in recent years have been very accepting

of Indians. And there is an Indian for example, who is the president

of a steel workers local, a Lumbee Indian, president of a steel

workers local...a lot of shop stewards around there. The Indians feel

very strongly about the importance of unions. Now that is a little

different between now and several years ago. A few years ago, if they




S: ...joined, maybe they joined because they had to. They were in

union shops and had to join. Now a lot of them feel quite strongly

about unions. And I this past summer gave them some sort of hypo-

thetical questions. Like: If your boss...say if your union wanted

to go on a strike and for more money, and if the boss were to say

to you..."Don't go out with the union, I'm going to give you more

pay." Would you stay on, or wouldn't you stay on? And almost univ-e

versally among the Indians,I.asked..'neothey-wouldn't stay out. They

felt they needed the union in order to be able to be sure that if

there was a pay raise, they would keep that. They said the boss

after while wouldn't give them the...I think this is one of the im-

portant things that Indians have learned in the city. I can add to

a number of other things, and I'd be glad to respond to questions

about the Indians. Esentially I want to say, in the area of acultur-

ation...or what we call aculturation...I really feel that Indians

have basically madatained their own group. You know essentially the

Indians friends are...the Indians have friends among other Indians.

But it...uh, this is something that Indians are beginning to move

away from in Baltimore. There are friends being picked up in other

areas. But if you're going to talk about the basic friendship net-

works of Indians, you're going to say that most of the Indians

basically have friends among other Indians. Uh, this is what I

would call nh, kind of structural pluralism you have in Baltimore.

I want to point out to you that Baltimore is a very ethnic divided




S: ...towm. Baltimore has all kinds of ethnic groups, Poles and

Italians. Now what do you think the Italians think. The Italian

friends are mostly among other Italians, and the Polish friends

are mostly among other Polish. It is not unusual for the Indians

to be that-way. But I have found the Indians really-muchemerei.e

receptive towards moving out toward people on the outside. So that

I do think they're in a stage of transition now They're uh, feeling

strongly about holding on to being Indian, and yet there is also...

there're many interesting things about people on the outside that

Indians are beginning to find out about. It is hard to predict any

future as far as the Indians are concerned in Baltimore. I do think

they will hold on to their Indianess, but I think there're going to

continue to be all kinds of changes among them. And a number of them

are just going to feel afterwhile...marrying other people...that

maybe they don't want to be Indians And this is something, that if

a strong Indian movement develops over here, it's going to be as

strong, it's going to be felt over there. And this will be one of

the ways in which Indians can really feel strongly unified.

M.C. Thank you very much. Dave do you want to get this out of here?


S: Maybe one good-thing about coming third, and almost last is maybe I

can get to play the devil's advocate, and uh, and let you squirm

for a minute, and turn to the light side. Went down to Wellington

last summer to make a talk, and I was introduced in a peculiar way.




S: And so I decided maybe I'll uh...change that introduction tonight,

and say I'm in Florida as a demographer, but after being intro-

duced as a Democrat uh, down in Wellington...I just don't want to

be known as a demographer...in those terms. A couple little funny

stories I'd like to tell to get your thought patterns on what we're

trying to do in Robeson County. I know you must have heard numerous

stories and accounts of the little "Johnny Jokes." Johnny comes in

to mommy and daddy to ask various questions. The question thatI-;so

suppose has been used, and befuddled all children at some point in

their lives, is...where do babies come from? And so a couple of

little stories of Johnny then, asking mommy...where do babies come

from? One, Johnny comes tearing in to mommy and says, "Hey momm,

where did I come from?" And she says, Oh no! This poor child, is he

ready for life?" And she says, "Yeah, he's ready." So she took him

in on the sofa and sat down and proceeded to tell him the story of

life. About half way through, Johnny says,"Whoa mommy...that's not

what I mean. Billy comes from South Carolina...where do I come from?"

Well, Greig and Abe have talked about migration, where people

originate and move to hither and there. The other little story,

Johnny comes in with the same question, and says, "Hey mommy, where

do babies come from?" "Oh my gosh! the same thing, is he ready?"

Well, she says, "No, he's not ready. I can't tell him where babies

come from." So she says, "Johnny it's like this." She says,p"Babies

come,from seeds. And God takes a seed and puts it in mommy3s

tummy, and that seed grows, and that's where babies come from."




S: Well, that satisfied little Johnny deep enough. He went tearing out.

Later that day, he was eating an apple, and when you're a hungry

little boy eating an apple, sometimes you eat too deeply, and you

find seeds. Ah...he got one of those forward ideas...when the

bright light bulb come on...blop...seeds and babies. So he goes

tearing out in the yard, digs himself a hole, and puts his apple

seed in the whole. .goeszawayahappi*y. Didn't think about it any-

more until the next day when he came tearing out of his house, as

he hit the ground, he saw that fresh mound of dirt. And that light

bulb came on again, but sitting on that mound of dirt was the ugliest

old toad frog that Johnny has ever seen in all his life. And he

looked at the toad frog, and the toad frog looked at Johnny, and he

looked at the toad frog, and the toad...you know you can go on all

night and you get tired of looking. And finally he summed up all his

courage, and said, "If I weren't your daddy...I'd stomp the hell out

of you." Now now...we demographers study people, and I think that's

the way I'd like for you to think of what we do. As we study people,

and we study these three processes, as I've tried to

stories about Johnny. We study about birth, we study about people

dying, and we study about people moving. As I say, one of those stor-

ies has a defense for what I'm going to say. Do you know about the

lion in thb-jungle? I thought I did until I started telling some

students one day, and they corrected me so many- times. You correct

me when I get the story wrong. The lion woke up one morning and sA,




S: "I'm the king of the jungle." Says, "I'm going to go out and find out

if that's not true." And so he went bombing through the jungle, and

he came to a chimpanzee, and he said, "Chimpqnzee...who's the king

of the jungle?" And the chimpanzee looked at him and said, "You are

oh mighty lion." And the lion beamed and threw out his chest even

further, and walked on. He came to a skunk...he says, "Skunk...who's

the king of the jungle?" Skunk says, "Oh you are oh mighty lion."

And the lion was feeling pretty good, walking tall all the time. He

came to a clearing in the jungle and came to an old elephant stand-

ing there grazing away in the trees. He said, "Elephant...who's the

king of the jungle?" And the elephant et eating. He said, "Elephant,

I'm going to ask you twice...who's the king of the jungle?" And the

elephant kept eating. "Elephant...I'm going to ask you the last time,

who's the king of the jungle?" The elephant took his snout or trunk,

or whatever you call it...reached down and caught the old lion

around his stomach...his belly, whatever you call it. Waled over to

this big tree, and started slamming...WHAM WHAM WHAM, now you can go

on, you know, telling, again, all night...so he put the lion down, and

the lion went dragging off to the edge of the clearing, and he got

to the safety of the trees, and he turned around and looked over his

shoulder and said, "You didn't have to get so mad because you didn't

know the right answer." Well, I guess I have to differ from my uh,

two colleagues who have gone before me, because I'm not at a point

to give you the right answers yet. I would like to take this opportunity




S: ...to express our appreciation to all of you, and I hope we cap-

tured some of you in our studies. That's one thing that we've failed

tp teach our students as we teach them how to do research projects,

is to go back and to thank people for taking part. And so I do

sincerely express our appreciation for the willingness of people in

this county to take part. Four years ago a group of young PhDs

embarked on a journey because they felt that being so bright with

all new degrees that they ought to go out and seek the truth and

find the right answers, happened to come upon the ideathat there was

a need to discover further knowledge in the area of these "Johnny

jokes" I suppose. And so we sat down to try to map out a plan of

action where we could come to understand the process of why Johnnys

ask questions. We became interested in Robeson County...because

Robeson County is in the book as one of the poorest counties in the

nation, and yet at the same time, if you look at another set of

books...it is one of the richest counties in so far as the amount of

agricultural products that are sold. So we were interested in a,

can I say poor county, to see what's taken place. At the same time

Robeson County was a unique county because it afforded us an op-

portunity to look not at the usual color breakdown, the racial

breakdown of whites and blacks, but gave us a third group to

consider. We could look not only at the whites and blacks, but also

at Indians. So there was a second important reason why we were

interested in the county. A third reason which finally captured our




S: ...interest and brought us to this county to study families, was

the fact that say in a demographer's language...people language...

Robeson County is a rural county. As one looks at the storehouse of

information where people have studied the peopling process over

time, you find all the major studies, starting with the Indianapolis

Study back in the 40s and coming to the Princeton Studies in the 50s,

and the growth of American families in the 50s and 60s have been

primarily with urban places...big cities. And so we discovered what

we thought then was a vacuum, in-whattweeknow about the peopling

process. That there were very few...no major studies, let's put it

that way, studying the peopling process in a rural county, a poor

county, a tri-racial county. So we set out, and we were fortunate

indeed to have the blessings of the National Institute of Child

Health and Development. And they awarded us with funds that we might

conduct a two-year study here in Robeson County. Well the other

unique thing,-while I'm talking about thecunique thingsthat we de-

cided to try to accomplish, and I think it will be the strongest part

of the study that will emerge, and one which I think all of you along

with us can be proud of. This will be one of the first major studies

that has attempted to deal both with males and females in under-

standing the peopling process. The majority of the previous studies

have attempted to gain data only from female response. And pre-

dominantly white female response. So we think we have an opportunity

with the data which we have just completed the collection process




S: ...as some of you are probably aware, in the last...two ot three weeks

ago. We think we'll have some unique data, and we think we'll have a

great deal that we can say to our country, and that we can say to you.

So I look forward to code back andrtelllyoigwhat we do find once we

get some of the findings found. Let me take a few more minutes and tell

you some of the things that we are aprticularly interested in pursuing.

I'll name some of the major variables that people have looked at before.

trying to understand: the idea of residence, and where...whether you

live in a rural area, or an urban area: income-wise, and just tied up

in a concept that sociologists call "social class." I know you must have

read countless accounts of the relationship between the peopling process

and one's social class. So we decided to come in and take a look at some

other variables that haven't been explored in great detail. We wanted

to try to understand people's values...what they feel to be most

important to them.Also, to look at what people think about various

items, and what their attitudes are towards various issues...to look

at the goals, or the end results that people direct their daily lives

towards. And perhaps most important of all...was to look again at

what sociologists call "social relationships." And we wanted to get

some understanding as to what takes place between man and wife. And

how this affects their behavior, particularly their behavior in the

peopling process. So we uh, come in, and uh, I'm not going to ask you

to identify yourself. If you were part of our survey you'll recognize

some of the...the variables or questions then that we are pursuing

along these lines, trying to get a goals, attitudes, values, and




S: ...social relationships. And we have asked a couple of students to res-

pond as to how do they divide the labor in the household. Who carries

out the trash, uh, who washes clothes, who spanks the kids, who decides

to have kids...And in turn, looking at these issues in relationship to

many other variables. Who does what, who decides what, and what do you

do with your family, and how does what you do with your family

effect other parts of your individual life. Do you do things as a

family, do you do things as an individual...how does this effect the

decision to have a family in the first place. Well uh, we have asked

a number of question also about values or "value orientations" as we have

expressed it. Those things that we think people hold to be important.

Trying to decide if people have directed their thoughts to the future,

are we living in the present, or are we clinging to the old and past.

Not saying one is better than another, but simply wanting to see if we

can find where people are. When I was in school years ago, one of the

first things they tried to teach us as young demographers, was they

used to...to uh, come back and make some statement that a person...

general statements like religion, and...and social class cause one to

have the size of family that one has. And that translated down into

specifics sometimes, that Catholics have the most children because of

their religion. And blacks have the most children because of the color

of their skin. Uh, one can quickly see how this has no real impact on

what you do, so we need to go beyond that surface. Color of skin doesn't

really affect what we do does it? Or is color of our skin symbolic of

something else. Uh but .then we have discovered now that it's not

religion or Catho...Catholicism as such that causes us to have children,




S: ...but ene family comes out of Puerto Rico...is that that particular

group of Catholics just didn't talk to each other, that is husbands

and wives. And so one important part of what we're trying to look at

then...is how much do husbands and wives talk to each other in Robeson

County, Uh, I could go on and on and on telling you about uh, variables

that we want to look at, and as the others have said, I think I'll

stop, and say I'll be glad to talk to any of you...to allay your fears

that uh...we don't know anybody in this county as individuals. Some

persons have been concerned about the sensitivity of the issues,and uh,

we just look upon it as trying to understand what a group of people

uh...think and feel, and how they are acting about the peopling pro-


M.C. Well thank you very much Dave. Uh, food ready? They say the foods

ready, the coffee is hot, so why don't we have a coffee break, and

then come back, and Gene Breakston will sort of...he will wrap up, and

then we'll have open discussion.

M.C. Yeah, and Mrs. Hunt and...


M.C. Yes, appreciate it very much. And uh, I see the Director of the

Office of Communications of the Bureau of Indian Affairs from Wash-

ington D.C., none other than the first Lumbee pilot of World War II,

retired commander, Timothy Oxendine. Come be with us again tomorrow

night. I believe I saw W.J. Strickland around here. He's been up in




M.C. Washington, uh, getting involved in the Indian world. W.J. welcome

back. I'm only recognizing people who are out of town, all the rest

of you, uh, you know you carry special recognition 365 days to the

year. Thank you. I hope all of you will return tomorrow night, and

bring someone with you because we will lose a few tomorrow to Raleigh

on the double voting issue...might not be back in time for the

session, so that means that everyone needs to get on the telephone

tomorrow, and invite at least five people back for tomorrow night

because we'll have something real good for you tomorrow night.

Brenda Brooks: If there's anybody interested in going to Raleigh tomorrow,

we will be leaving at nine-thirty in the morning...leaving from LRDA.

We have money for gas if you will drive. If you can't drive, and you'll

go we'll feed you on the way, but -puw- t, .

M.C. But you're going to be back for the session?

B.B. Yes sir.

U: That double voting thing is...those of you who have heard me before

know it's very important.

B: We'll break double voting and be right back.

M.C. I say, are you going to be back for the session? O.k. well Gene

Breakston is now going to tell us what we said.

G: I think rather than simply give you back what was said, that perhaps uh,

it'd insult your intelligence if I did that, but uh, rather try to bring

it together, a framework that maybe we can, uh that maybe we can take

some shots at it. Before I do this uh, uh, Professor Peck, if I have




G: ...your permission, may I recognize two people?

P: Sure.

G: Uh, Venus Jacobs, and Don Locklear, who I understand worked very

hard in getting out this marvelous crowd tonight. And I think

all of us appreciate having somebody to talk to, and they're

working on that.

If I were an outsider, say from England or France, and I was

asked to come in and study the Indian situation in America,

and more specifically, the Indian situation here...I might

begin by making an inventory of the assets and liabilities of

your situation. Because I may be an outsider, I would run the

risk of making some inaccurate statements because I would not

note the specific details. You know some things about your

situation that no outsider could hope to know. On the other

hand, I would also perhaps bring to the study a sense of ob-

jectivity, and perhaps a sense of being detached that might

be useful in looking at where you are, and what you hope to

be...that might not be gained by a person who was too closely

associated with the situation. Much like I ask a person who I

consider to be very sharp, and very tough, and very honest to

tell me a few weeks ago how he thought I was doing in my job.

Now when you do that you must get prepared to uh...hear some

things that may not be very flattering. I asked him to give me

the good news, and the bad news. Uh, may I tell a story...they're




G: ...a bunch of good news and bad news jokes. The airline pilot

who announces while they're in the air to the people in the

cabin. He says, "I want to announce some good news and some

bad news. I'm going to give you the bad news first. We are

hopelessly lost. And now for the good news...we're making ex-

cellent speed." Well let's look at the bad news of the Indian

situation in America. And uh...perhaps also, more specifically,

your own. As for the liabilities, Indians in North Carolina are

a rural people. Rural life has obvious advantages, such as:

privacy, no smog, no traffic jams, friendly neighbors, you can

go on listing them. But it has some obvious disadvantages.

Services such as: phone, water, mail delivery, medical facilities,

schools...are costly to provide when people are widely dispersed.

In some cases, in some rural areas...some of these services are

not available at all. Some Indians for example in the peopling

process in New Mexico must go a hundred miles to the nearest

hospital to have a baby delivered in a hospital. They're that

far from a doctor...that far from medical facilities. Paved r

roads and rural rectification, it shames us a great deal, but

they're still disadvantages. Rural schools, rural churches tend

to be smaller, and the*fraeless...less able than their city

counterparts to provide some services for their constituents.

Rural people in recent years have received less and less

political attention. I was associated with an evaluation of




G: ...Federal Programs for three years. That program was brought

into being essentially to see that rural people got some of

the services that urban people were getting. And I would say

the present administration also tends to give more attention

to urban problems than to rural. So the fact that you're

rural in some ways is a liability. True, as Indians you are a

third group in a society which tends to recognize only two

groups...black and white. Your historic struggle to maintain

a separate identity with separate churches and separate schools

is well known and needs little elaboration here. The point is,

that when the nation as a whole considers inter-group relations,

it tends to think in terms of black and white. A third defecit

is, that relative to whites, Indians as a category are not

wealthy. If you were, you would be better able to effectively

control your destiny. Here in Pembroke you have been able to

make some economic gains which are impressive. I believe that

is also true of the Indians in Sampson County, and also accord-

ing to the reports tonight, uh, also in Baltimore. In Halifax

County, and Warren County, North Carolina, in Washington County,

Alabama where I've been studying Indians there, and in San Duval

County, New Mexico...Indians are poorest of the poor. Third...or

fourth, historical Indians have had educational defects.

Indian schools were often a thrid system of schools in many

counties, poorly financed by the government, and often paid for




G: ...out of the meager resources of Indians themselves. If they

wanted schools they had to do it themselves. This is a matter

of historic record. Books and other learning resources were

scarce, teachers were poorly paid...students were often unable

to attend school regularly because they were needed to work on

farms. That still is a problem in a society, where if you're

born poor, and you want to move up the economic ladder...you

need to get quality education. And lacking quality education,

you have problems. It has already been mentioned that teaching

kids in school was a problem in some areas...it is a problem

in rural areas...it is a problem in the cities as well. Dr.

McClosky has mentioned a possible problem area for Indians

in Baltimore...the decline of the church. Historicaly, if you-

look at the records...the church has been an important element

in fostering a sense of identity. You look back at the early

indian schools that were established in this county and Sampson

County, and elsewhere in the state...many times they were an

outgrowth of thedSynda|:sTho61-ofsome-othegaorgafnization. So

the sense of Indian identity has been inextricably linked with

the viability and strength of the church. I see those as a few

deficits, problem areas, uh, negative areas if you wish. Now -

for the assets. Indians now enjoy the national reputation among

many whites, of being cultural heroes. Many whites are now

quite happy to find that one of their ancestors was an Indian.

As a matter of fact, there are so many whites that claim Indian




G: ...ancestors, that one must beleive that those early Indians

must have been real men and real women. It is a fact that

Indians have come to be heroes of the American past. And so I

think that there is now a reservoir of goodwill which can be

tapped whenever appeals are made for resources. I think the

sense...the sense in which Indians have been forced into

segregated facilities...schools, churches, has been a mixed

kind of blessing, for the churches and the schools have become

training grounds for leaders. It would be difficult to estimate

the impact Pembroke State University has had upon the Indians

of the state and elsewhere. As has already been mentioned, I

forget who it was that said it...this university provided young-

sters with role models. They...they could see that an Indian

could grow up to be a preofessor in a university. And Indian

could do something...uh...earn a good living, be respected. And

I think the fact that right here in this county Indians had .---

their own institution of higher learning has been a very very

important thing. And I don't know how to estimate the total

impact of...of this school. For example, the Tallowwa Indian

School in its early years...was almost entirely staffed by per-

sons who had originally gotten their training here. You've been

able to acquire land...a good bit of it. I went just to get some

feel for this to the uh, old record books today, and looked at

some of these early deeds that were given to Indians. You held




G: ...on to land since the seventeen hundreds. Uh, you said that

home is Robeson County. Here's where people own land. Here's

where people have put down their roots. It's been an important

thing. And I would say if I might give any advice for the

future...aquire land, and hold on to it. There is an important

sense in America, in which the land owner has had a better deal

than the person who did not own land. County officials recog-

nize people who own land. You tend to get a better deal in

courts. And uh, so I think that this has been an important part

of your heritage. Dr. Peck has mentioned your resources which

enables you to adapt to the stress of urban living. This sense

of having to struggle for your identity here, and maintain your

Indianness gave you a strength that has come into uh, good use

in Baltimore. Dr. McClosky has mentioned the role of the

Indian Center. And I think he has also touched an important

area when he mentioned the occupational aspirations of Indians.

Had a young man ride with me today. He says, I don't know what

I'm going to do. Said I'm thinking about learning brick laying.

And I encouraged him in this. I said you acquire that skill and

you'll be able to support yourself anywhere you go in the coun

country if you learn to be a good one. But then there's been a

shift, away from uh...uh, from the trades...the skill trades,

to the professional, and perhaps this is told to him. Uh, it

was mentioned also that you have learned the worthwhileness of

pulling together. Uh...I think this is terribly important. It




G: ...manifests itself in union orientation in Baltimore. The

Indians in Robeson County, Sampson County...somewhat later

in Halifax and Warren County...did establish an institute,

did learn to pull together. Had their schools, their churches,

their political organizations...this has not been true of all

Indian groups. One of the large Indian groups in South Alabama

so far as I know, never established an Indian club, never

established many of their own churches nor their own uh...

system of higher education. And as a result, they have not

been able to adjust as well to some of the stresses of urban

life. Well, as I see it, these are some of the pluses and some

of the minuses in assessing the situation. I hope that this a0

provides a vehicle for some of the questions that you might

want to -the members of

M.C. Well, do you want to...well you stay here too, you've got

something to say. Dave you want to come...Dave?

U: I'd like to know what he's determined so far, if anyhting,

uh...if he hasn't determined anything, how are we to get

a positive report?

S: Unfortunately we haven't determined anything yet. If you will

write to me or give me your name and address tonight, I'll

be happy to keep it, and I'll send you a copy of any articles

that come out. We will be sending some summaries of the




S: ...study down to the countfI

U: kLerv Doc- H'-bet when you send it down to the county

it maybe never gets here.

S: I've got a couple of A[R.L. a [ejL where people

have told me so already. If you'll tell me where some places

are you'd like to see some copies...I'll try to get some


U: For the purposes of Dave's study, how are you going to define

a Lumbee Indian, and what will be your definition of a Lumbee


S: It was simple identification, the interview process was

two-fold. We sent a team of interviewers to each household

in the sample, one the first visit, and asked the person in

that household to identify to which racial group do you be-

long. And so each household has identified itself as one of

the three groups we're looking at.

U: Now you will include in your study the people in Baltimore,

the people...what peoples are you going to include...will be

in your study?

S: Only those persons that were living here physically in the

county last summer, the summer of 1972.

M.C. Grieg, you may speak to this tomorrow night, but some of

us may not be here tomorrow night, but others will substitute

for us maybe. Because double voting is'upermost in the minds




M.C. ....? $ &Y OF US...uh, what effects...as a person who looks

in on our county...what effects do you think double voting has

had on the culture in the community the like of Indian communities?

S: That's a toughfy...uh you can get in trouble on that one. O.k. as

long as you had your own separate school system, and sort of by

agreement, "X" number of jobs were Indian jobs...uh, it kept you

in the middle...put a ceiling on you, but it was a...in many ways

a pretty happy middle. With the enforced desegregation, not only

of students, but of faculty, coupled with a surplus of public

school teachers...uh, that monopoly in a sense, of jobs, is

seriously threatened. Uh, tenure is a very shaky thing. With,

as a result...and it isn't only in Robeson County, it's all over

the state, and it's in every state that has gone through this

desegregation thing. O.k. so that...that sort of sets the pic-

ture of your...in a sense, the Indian position, the Indian

economic position in the county is in jepordy. Uh, the double

voting issue comes in because it limits and minimizes the

Indian votes in deciding who's going to make the decisions about

who has the jobs. Be these positions based on deciding what

kind of tests do we give people. Do we take a seven foot ruler

and say o.k. everybody who's seven feet tall, they pass, and if

you're under then we'll rank you below it, or whatever the test

may be. The people who are going to decide that test and how to

use it...uh, are the people who are elected in this county....






DATE: MARCH 5, 1973



U: individuals, and I'm a

very unique person, not in the sense that I'm great or anything, but

in that I'm my own person you know, and I'm...have my own identity.

But...that is my first question...don't you think norms are misleading?

Two: don't you think that the only way we're ever going to get any-

where, say double voting, and I just feel that a lot of the conclu-

sions aren't very strong...but don't you think we're going to have

to take the summations that you come up with and put them to work,

and the next time we have a seminar you be sitting in the front row,

and me be standing there? You know, reverse the roles? And uh, I know

all you guys are admirable, and idealists probably, but it kind of

offends me that all of us are sitting here you know, and you're standing

there. Somehow, taking your conclusions, don't you think we have to

reverse that role especially in this city and-the county, any of us?

Well I state questions...

S: I would like to see uh...very much, the roles reversed. And I...you

feel, of course still speaking about Baltimore...I would like to see




S: ...studies of the Indian people in Baltimore done by the Indian

center, done by Indian people. And I think they are beginning to. Now

one of the first...you know you can do uh, studies without any back-

ground, you know do it, and then you may come out with information

which may not be very reliable. So right in the beginning there may

have to be help, some...some help given. And I don't know why some

of the Indians who are, uh, are well educated here can't help them

out in Baltimore too, in the Indian Studies Center. And tell them some

of the ways in which studies might be done. But I do agree with you. I

think it would be very important for Indians to really be doing most

of these studies of the Indian people. I am uh...I feel somewhat

guilty about this, and uh...I know...I willLsay-that I do try, and

where ever I can I stay connected with the Indian community, and when

called upon...I try to help out in whatever they want me to help out.

But you make a good point, and I do hope there's more...there're more

Indians who will be involved in doing this rather than people from the

outside coming and saying things. Well I still think that...Mr.

Breakston said...Dr. Breakston said...it is important for outsiders

also to be looking. It's not that we can fully understand as outsiders.

I would never pretend that I fully understand. But I think there's a

certain kind of outsiders view which I try to maintain as truthfully

and objectively as I can. But there's a little bit more, and I do think

the insider's view is very very important, and would be much more

illuminating than my view.

D: Let me just throw one thing in. As an anthropologist, when we look at




D: ...behavior, we find people sort of spread all over the map, and

tending, most of them, to fall in a particular area. Uh, the feeling

that a man is a man. Uh, there may be some homosexuals among the Indians.

Uh, obviously they don't feel this, but most Indians are going to sit

somewhere here in the middle. Uh, so that's the first thing we do. And

then as an anthropologist, the second thing we do, is we go down into

the situation, and we try and behave in terms of those things that we've

seen. And the first thing we find out is that we've made a mistake, and

we say Peck you're a darn fool. And so they straighten us out...if...if

they can. And if they have good feelings toward us. They straighten us

out. So in this kind of a contrast that we try and describe, uh, this

range of behavior, in terms of its central tendencies. Uh, on the other

point, I'd be...I'd be honored to be invited to your seminar.

0: May I say it offends me somewhat to be standing. Uh, I take the

philosophy...never stand when you can sit down, and never sit down when

you can lie down, uh...so I would much rather be sitting down, and I

would much rather be having you hold...talking. But uh, let me say in

fairness to persons who arranged this program, I did not, I'm simply an

invited guest. Uh, this is simply one thing that I have become interested

in...historic development of the Indian people. Uh, one other thing I

studied was occupational education, and I was asked to evaluate oc-

cupational education, in this case for whites, and when the...my research

was over I was invited to Washington, and they made me stand and tell

what I'd found out. And I hope that's what I...what we're doing here.




D: We're just...I'm just standing here telling you some of the things I saw.

U: Yeah, and I...I wanted...directed the question to you in a friendly

manner, I didn't mean it as an affront. But I think that's the...this

concept is what's going to be our salvation. When we ask those kind

of questions, and you know, and take your answers and evaluate them

and put them to use. And uh...you know, we've been a frustrated people,

and some of our most brilliant people, you know, guys who are

SJl >-s ^ c 0- q q \rt l ...... We've

got to start asking questions, and we've got to, you know, get away

from this plantation type thing, where if uh, you're a so-called

W-A-S-p...we can't let it...

S: Not entirely --

U: I mean we've got to get away from that idea that we can't ask those

kind of questions you know, in a friendly manner.

S: That's right.

U: We have problems here.

Q: I would like to ask a question that what happens to your study.

Uh, is it just a year or two years of reprieve or enlightenment, or do

you plan to put the information which you have gained hopefully in the

right hands to correct some of the injustices or some of the short-

comings or deficits which you might find? eD2S \J A ,'AA Ae_-

A: For our part, we would certainly hope...the fact that the Federal

Government required that we provide the information back to you, as

well as providing it to the Federal Agency that has control over some




A: ...of the programs so that there can be changes...positive changes

made where there are defects.

B: Well I uh...I feel basically, in Baltimore, that the work is not

correcting some of the inequities in Baltimore needs to be done by

the Indian people, or the Indian center. They must do it, and all I

can feel is that I've made my study available not only to the Indian

center, but have made it available to a lot of people who helped me

in the course of the study...the Indians...gave them copies of it.

And I visit the center and visit my friends and talk with them and

want to be available to them if they need the help. I think that's

one of -the advantages of my situation. That I remained in Baltimore,

it wasn't just a study for one year. I stay there and continue my

contacts with them. I think the Indian people basically have to do

this themselves, and want to do it themselves. The Indian center

doesn't want me to come in and tell them how to do anything at all.

They're interested in my...the findings of my study. But they want

to do it themselves, and I think that's the way it will have to be


C: On mine, mine really involved two phases. The first phase was...as

a starving graduate student...I paid all my own bills, and barely did

that, and so I couldn't help anybody but myself. I got a disertation

out of that, and that's something that I paid for, and it's also

something that you have given to me. And for this there is a debt.




C: The second part of the study was...there was money in that. That was

part of the National Study of American Indian Education. Uh, and I was

a...one of I think six center directors. And I had I think the highest

porportion of Indian employees of any of the centers. Every single

one of my interviewers was Indian. Uh, they received some training,

not a whole lot, but they received some, and many of them have gone

on to be then skilled interviewers in other studies that came through

here. Uh, the output from this...that study went into a final report

to congress, and to the President. Uh, not an awful lot has come from

it, but the new Indian Education Bill that some of you know about,

that's been passed, but hasn't gotten the funds paid for was influenced

with some of the information from that national study. And on a couple

of key issues it was influenced. And one of them was the way in which

an Indian is defined. Because up until that time, pretty much, when it

came to funding, an Indian was defined as a member of the B.I.A. role.

On the new Indian Education Act, he's defined as any group that the

state recognizes as an Indian is elligible. Now this is a real crucial

shift, and it wouldn't have happened I don't think without the sup-

porting evidence from the National Study of Indian Education. Uh, some

other changes that have happened in the county as a result of that

study. I think there's a new awareness and emphasis on the importance

to you of Indian history. And not only to you, but to everybody else

in the county because they're living in this county too, and they want

to know something about Indians. Uh, this isn't moving perhaps as fast




C: ...as we would like it to, but it is moving. And so there's some

things going there. I think I also am, and have been a re-

source for people down here. Uh, and would like to be more

of a resource. But I think that best of all, I would like

to be run off...have somebody who is more qualified, who's

Indian and they don't need me.

Q: Was uh, Federal-Indian Policy part of your basis in your study?

I know that historical part comes tomorrow night, but uh, I

was just wondering if that business of people here getting

caught between Federal Indian Policy and the state, and their

reaction to it caused them to, I guess in a lot of cases,

caused somewhat a disappointment in Indian leadership. I think

that's probably more of a key than anything else in my study.

A: See, it usually never came up directly, but was always there.

Uh, and I went through all sorts of flack on the national study

because uh, the Lumbee didn't fit the mold. Uh, without federal

funding, without federal payments, your income was higher than

most Indians. Without federal...B.I.A. schools, your education

level was way above other Indians. Uh, you just didn't behave

like uh a lot of the Indians in the United States should be-

have. Even those in tri-racial situations, you didn't...didn't

fit the pattern. And one of the big differences is, other

Indians in tri-racial situations tend to be...in a tri-racial




A: ...situation with whites, Spanish-American, Indian, they're

on the bottom. And the Lumbee they were well

into the middle, well into the upper-middle, and even when you

look at their income...it was, you know, edging toward the

poverty level. But the behavior was not. They were behaving

like...you know, not...not very wealthy middle class and

upper-middle class. But boy, they had the Protestant Ethic

right down the line. They had the work ethic right down the

line. They had the...the attachment, very strong attachment,

for the church, even when they didn't go. They just looked

really good solid middle class people, and this...this didn't

fit in with most of the studies that exist. And so it-was-a-eonn-

tinual hassle in the study-to-try and fit Lumbee data in to

make sense with other Indian data. So it's in this kind of a

context that...that the hassle took place for me.

Q: I'd be interested in...if each one of you can, in your endeav-

ors, in the county, as you proceeded to study the Indians,

what was the reaction as far as say the whites power structure

as you went about doing your study ...a personal feeling, what

you felt...what they thought you were here doing, and what kind

of cooperation you received from these people? And I'd like to

know the sources if at all possible 2 edd. dealt with.

A: I thought that was good. I don't know if this is what you want

or not, but we did try to solicit the cooperation of every




A: ...group when we came in. And uh...we found the Indians to be

the most cooperative. ---s_ .

B: I don't know what I can make of that one.

Q: cr -'\rt your study.

C: Now we were...to be honest,.,we...we went to...three or four

years ago when we thought about-coming down to Robeson County,

\\ gs, that we'll blast in there and get a lots

of white interviews done...we'll have trouble with the Indians

and the blacks. We'll just have to do the best we can. Well,

we blasted in here and got one hundred percent support from

the Indians, a high amount of support from the blacks, and poor

support from the whites.

D: I'm not sure your request is particularly appropriate to

Baltimore, but I will answer it in a couple of ways anyhow.

Let me say as far as the Indians were concerned, I really got

a very friendly reception. You know, until people got used to

me, and thought perhaps I was a cop, or something, until they

got used to me, uh...un...my university connection really paved

the way, and my grey hair paved the way. Uh, Indians feel uh,

respect for-old-peeple. My grey hair was in no way a hinderance.

Maybe it kept me from some of the bar drinking parties, uh, they

didn't invite me, but otherwise my reception was very good, very

friendly, and there were only a few who I felt didn't trust me

after awhile, and I didn't and I didn't thrust myself too strongly

on them. I will say about some of the outsiders though, and their




D: ...thoughts. You know, there're a lot of, uh, in this area of

Baltimore most of the shopkeepers are not Indian. There are

a few Indians there. Most of them are not Indian. I did talk

with shopkeepers just to get what they knew about, what they

thought about, and a lot of them were amazed that I thought

it worthwhile to study Indians, and there was some problem

with them, and they had some problems with Indians too. But

uh, by and large, I don't really feel they counted very much

as far as my being able to understand the Indians. And I had

made the point in my study that I think it would be very good

if the Indians were willing to take over some of the stores

in this area. Really run some of the businesses there. It -

would make a big difference in the area if the Indians ran

some of the businesses themselves in that area. Now I will

say about authorities in Baltimore. Authorities in Baltimore

are very eager to get information about Indians. They really

are, they know there's a big Indian community there. From time

to time there have been difficulties with Indians. The Indians

uh...when uh, pushed by police, they'll push back, and it gets

to be a problem as far as the person concerned. They were re-

ally...I went to talk to a number of authorities again, just

to look into the question of trouble with the law, and see




D: ...the extent to which some of these officials connected with

the law were to hear about Indians and so on. I really was

surprised at one thing, that while everybody knew about Indians,

they really...they really didn't know many Indians. They really

didn't have much experience with Indians. I can remember a

conversation with the head of the probation department of the

main court in Baltimore, and'he said he knew the Indians very

well, but then he looked up his records as to the number of

Indians who had been referred to him uh, to put on probation

in 1969. Of 1313 cases, I remember the figure, there were

eleven Indians he had all together. That is, not many Indians,

the Indians are well known. The authorities know them very

well, but not that many really get in trouble with the law.

But the uh, administration generally is very interested in -

the Indians. I was amused at the uh...opening meeting, the

inaugural of theslndian Center. The commissioner of police

went to the inaugural of the Indian Center, and a number of

other city officials were there too. So uh, this is what I

can tell you about Baltimore anyway.

E: In my work here in the county, basically I worked with

Indians, and I worked where you still had Indian schools. Uh,

to do that I had to clear and get permission from young

Allen, and he gave it. He gave it in good faith, and did not

in any way inhibit or encumber my study. I think this is an




E: ...important thing at least for me to remember. Uh, at a later

date I sent some people down to try and get some economic in-

formation from Lumberton, from the county, and you have never

seen so many papers lost. It was just incredible. And so what

I figured out, is that when a study is being done, that the

power structure perceives as not threatening or harming them,

it's pretty cooperative. But if they see or think that it

might harm them, that it might...not just build up the In-

dians...but build up the Indians at the white power structure's

expense, then they're going to resist. And I think this has

been basically the pattern that I have observed. I think cer-

tainly the uh...there have been a lot of you mention the civil

rights appearance that you had last September...uh, tended to

reenforce this as kind of a conclusion. That where it...if it

doesn't matter they're more than willing to cooperate. If it-

'll do some good, but not cost them anything still they'll

cooperate. But where they perceive it as a threat to their

position then the cooperation comes much harder. There pro-

bably are some notable exceptions to this in the county gov-

ernment though. This is...this is...again, one of theseigen-

eralities that I mentioned that's describing that central

part. But there are people os d 6 bo d that are

quite different.




E: I should say that most of my study has been of a historic na-

ture, or has dealt with economic data. Most of this is a mat-

ter of public record, so that actually if I wish go in and

demand to see the titles. Or I could demand to see total as-

sessments. I will say that at the interpersonal level I have

found county officials to be most cooperative. And under-

standably, these are persons who must run for reeelection.

They don't want any flippant careless statement to be repeat-

ed outside the any group. And...and

so uh, I am an outsider to them. You see, there are grave and

serious cleveages among whites. And uh, so uh, sometimes a

sociologist is not exactly a loved person by the power struc-

ture because he represents potentially a threat. Oh, one other

thing I meant. I have never yet started a study with the

Lumbee Indians that I did not have to go through a two or

three hour period, but I guess I could best accredit that to

sermons on why I shouldn'r be doing what I want to do. Uh,

usually quite well thought out and quite justified, but when

that is through if I still want to do it, and if they agree

to do it...boy you've got somebody behind you one-hundred

per cent. This has been a...you know, it just...I mean they're,

they're really behind you, and really going to help you. This

is...I think maybe a characteristic thing down here.




Q: I was just wanting to ask a question about a uh...group of In-

dians they just cluster you know, like you marked it off down

here? My experience time this is my home, where I was brought

up here. What brings about, what causes the, the Indians to

cluster like that...together you know. Don't you think there's

something which has caused them to cluster like that? The en-

vironment...that we come up in this section? It ought not to

have been like that to start with. This is what I had learned.

Why would I...why would we want to cluster together like that?

Don't you think we was barred...the bars was put up on us that

causes us to have to be like that?

A: Yeah, you're ....

Q: It ought not to have been like that to start with.

A: Well, what you're saying is why...whay have the Indians sort

of stayed in their group?

Q: Yeah, that's the thing.

A: Well, you've had some legal bars on miscegenation, you've had

economic bars...uh, I think you maybe have also had a deep love

for the land. I mean there's...there's a thing...a thing about

being here, and being in the land that's...that's special. Uh,

you might...you know....




Q: I think that's that's what we're trying to tear down now...the

bars keeping us out...where we can have our privelege and go,

you know. We ought...I'm going to take me a list of what has

been said. I remember I'm from Robeson, this is my hometown.

I remember...I don't know who it was...he cmae from Baltimore,

and he didn't come down to get with the best of our leaders to

get his information. He got some...he got somebody there to

write it that wasn't...you might say he was...he was...one

that laied out on the street somewhere. This is where a lot of

people get their information...from this type of people, then

they begin to write about the Indians you see.

A: Um huh...I remember....

Q: I think...I think you need to watch what's did. He came to me

at Lumberton...this man come from Baltimore, he didn't get

what I call the best of our Indian people. He got what I call,

you know, what I just described. .--.. _---s __

He didn't go to church, but these are the ones that conducted

this information to him. This is not the best of our people.

A: No. But I think as a...as a behavioral scientist, it's impor-

tant to get that described. But if you're going to be honest

about your work...you get the whole range.

Q: Yeah.




A: And you try and describe where most people are. And maybe you

sayv..you know, you say those people are here, there's some

over here, and some over there...but most people are here.

This is what we try to do.

Q: All I'll say...now get this, I'm an,Indian. I'm proud of my-

r .self. But if someone calls us like this...about 1964 ,X

right in that area. I worked in Lumberton, I had on a white

shirt, sleeves rolled up, clean pants. This is what we are

living and what we must get rid of. I think all we Indians wa

want is...is...is the...is the power structure to open the way.

Recognize that this...this is...we're moving forward. I don't

know hardly how to direct questions see, but I know...you know,

how to put it...put it across.

A: Yeah.

Q: Uh, I had...see this is some of the fhkn -s we Indians in this

area has had to'T, and it's kept us poor. That's why we are

poor. But we want the power machine to open up to us...let us

have the same opportunity the white race has. I want to walk

down the street with you just like another man. But we haven't

had that privilege. I had a seat up there at Lumberton about

1964. I had a seat on this stool up there at the counter. I

co\t for a ice cream sanaiAr. A young girl, she acted like

she didn't hear me. I'm just telling you what we had to come




Q: ...up...I'm...I'm...I told myself, maybe I'm not on top of

-_a \et-&-Skp but I don't think I'm down at the

bottom. So this is some of the things we have had to come up

to. I had a seat up there and I called for a ice cream saft

NgW A young white girl she acted like she didn't hear me.

Another white man sat down on this stool aside of me and he

called for a Coke. She waited on him. I said, "Lady, I called

for a ice cream Siwief" And she-said, You have to get down

and come around here." I said, "What do you mean by getting

down there?" She said, We don't serve Indians across the

counter here, get out of here." I said, "Well if my money is

not welcome here...it's not welcome around there." I thought

it was in her you know...just a young girl. I said, "Where's

your ma "' She said, "You would like to speak to him?"

And I said I would. Two of them come out you know. And I shook

their hands, told them who I was, they were mighty surprised.

I said, "You've got a nice business, and so forth." I said, "I

had a seat, sat down, I called for a ice cream saaiwh+f, and

I was refused to be served." And so I told them...and the two

men came in, and I said to them right to their face. And so

they stood and listened. I said, "What makes me feel so bad,

we Indians always open the door for the whites here, but when

we come to a certain place then the bars are put up acrosss"




Q: They stood there looking at me. And I spoke to them, and I

said, "Look here you all...If there's anything God dislikes

any worse than this, the race issue, I don't know what it is."

And I said, "I hope to see the day come that it'll be whites

A\ .i \tat.r the other, and I think it's

about time too." They told me...I said, "Mr. Jennings, I know

how he feels." I says...said, "We are sent here because we op-

erate the business," you see. We have come up, that's...that's

what's kept us V5 A like that ___.

A: Yeah.

Q: Now what we need -jD-t- ,.,_o A I don't

know nr J a b .. We need some repre-

sentation. Like .e SAj this double vote, we

need to ____ we don't need to keep on talking

...we're wanting to do away with this Indian and white man, and

black man issue. Let's work together, add open up the way where

we can open the opportunity, the manpower...let's recognize

people. Now if you're going to keep on A\ bo the

Indians...I'm going...I'm going to get out there and tell the

people...Let's have our Indian schools, and let the white man

get to his place, and the black people get to their place. And

if this is what we want alright. If we're going to divide our

selves c.> rvto- and our culture, let's work




Q: ...together. I think this is what we need to do. I think we

knows our back history. I can tell you a lot. I went to school,

I had seven years of grade school. And it burns me when you

begin to talk about how the poor Indians have been treated...

that's why we arepoor. And I don't know how to say this, just

like I'm a saying it tonight. I know what the teachers told me

when I was a little boy...how they had to get their education.

Yes that's what's got us poor. I'm ashamed of it, but a lot

of times the white people don't know what we're come to here.

Now I made a big sermon, and I hope and trust that there are

...we'll tear down the bars yonder...where we can learn to work

together...let's move out, the world is rich. The money is there.

Let me have the same opportunity you have got.

A: Tomorrow...

Q: Thank you for this privilege. I just wanted to tell you some-

how ~ k.

A: .r_l Avjp3 share4hat's on your heart '\\\A \ T Tomorrow

is when we get the community organization and the mer active

part of it. And tomor...I don't want to feed on tomorrow because

the people who are going to be here tomorrow, are going to deal

with this kind of thing. So I'll look for you tomorrow...and

SCA S rl 4. get the answers.

Q: Uh, you said your study was uh, predominantly Indian. Have you

also made a study of, or has anyone made a study of how...how




Q: ...well Indian students do in the city system contrasted to

the town system, followed by county. In the county system you

see basically a Indian teachers, and predominantly Indian

student pop L I was wondering

what this would do to the way an Indian feels 9Voc "g n Si^

contrasted with city system, where

maybe he is a minority in the white versus black

U: In the stuff we did...

A: In the stuff I did, the city system was Baltimore, uh, the

young children were in predominantly black schools. For the

junior high and senior high were in uh, integrated schools

that we had a heavy black J A._ The Indian

children were a very very small minority in the city school

systems. Uh...seems not to perform much better or much worse

than anyone else, but they were lousy schools. They were urban

school systems with high dropout rates. Uh, one of the major

complaints was that the kids weren't even aloud to take their

books home. Uh, but they...there weren't enough of them in

Baltimore for us to get a very good idea at that time of just

what was going on. Uh, one thing I do remember was that the

girls seemed to be more prone to violence than the boys. Girls

seemed to be the ones that were carrying a chip on their shoulder

that were quicker to fight in school than the boys were. Why, I




Q: Would you know of any field studies done?

A: No, I don't think any studies have made of Indians in the...in

the n6e-county system. I think you're right...it probably

should be done.

Q: Uh, just one question when you made your study...when you came

in j-u. you were given a permit. I just won-

dered if this was by Indians or by non-Indians that you were

discouraged to do this thing?

A: sev Saw< B4altimore.

Q: Ic"l ^(4w /rCk p/,/n Ca,4c-k ALt-C rAI44iS /J7.&S 4V

A: Oh boy UJh, I looked to the oldest people...many of them have

a very painful past to remember. And it's hard to say we're here

now today. This is the hard thing. Uh...the segregation...this

is what it was...is a.funny thing because it lives in your mem-

ory. You know, it really does. Uh...and for many...many of te

people in Robeson county this is going to be a part of their

life..It's going to be a part of their memory for as long as

they live. For the youngsters...uh, and I found a difference

between Pembroke...the Pembroke area and Magnolia, and the

Lumberton area. For the Lumberton area, the biggest problem is

that road that goes north. They see the trucks going down it

and they hear those tires sing. And there's that sector gse

to leave. Uh, in Pembroke the biggest adjustment problem is

finding out can they fit in to the society here. Are they

going to fit in and feel comfortable, or are they going to



A: ...have to leave. When they leave, if they're bright, they're

well educated...if they go into the bigger world, not just

the white world, but the bigger world...then they really

have some problems. Uh, your female, twenty-seven or twenty-

eight...have a masters or a PhD, and no husband... .aa-you're-

Indian...you've got a real problem because there aren't un-

married Indian males back home with the same kind of education

the same kind of background. Uh, and characteristic with Indians

Vo...who administer the...who...bureaucracy, the establishment,

the...uh, jobs that are bigger than just Pembroke...are caught

in a bind. They're caught in an cultural crunch. Because in-

side the feelings are Indian, the responses, their...you know,

in their trust that they're Indian. But they have to...in order

to do their job they have to stop being Indian and thinking

Indian...to think bureaucrat. Or think uh...sales manager.

They have to...they get into a funny kind of climate. And this

is one reason why in--Baltimore...the Indians come in, their

economic position raises up very fast, very well, very

solid, and then they hit a spot. And in order to go beyond

that spot they have to stop being Indian...and most of them

can't do that.




B: I'd like to speak to that just a minute if I may Mr. Peck.

Seems to me like the questions have _graded social

adjustments the Indian has to make. It seems to me that one

of the biggest that I've observed has been to accept himself

and to adjust himself to being Indian first. Once you get over

that hurdle you don't have to think sales manager, and manag-

erial and whatever else. You can think just as any other per-

son then...once you get adjusted to yourself as being Indian.

And not something closer to being white or something near to

being black...that you are an entity and that entity happens

to be Indian.

C: I uh...I think you're right. It is...speaking of Baltimore,

---------because I think it is a uh,

the major problem...identity. And that's why I, *

when I began talking ...I choose to talk about identity

Q- / gAy '4 A4/ o'so I might add something else

about Baltimore as a major problem. The city is a hard place

to raise kids, and one of the reasons...people say I wish I

could come back home and live in Robeson County...is that it

is hard to bring up kids. People who don't make much money,

and the Indians, while they're far from the bottom of the

ladder, still don't make much money. They can't live in really




C: ...good areas to live. There are nice areas, if you move to

the suburbs around Baltimore. Jf4- i Cos y -oc_,>

for living. So it's just hard to raise kids in the city. It's

not an easy life for them. I suppose they do have good jobs,

or feel they have good jobs...or a lot more would be coming

home than do come home. There'still is a stable community in

Baltimore. But any time you talk to them...the answer that

anybody would give to you...it's just hard to bring up kids

in a city like that...and I agree with them. It is hard to

bring up kids in a city like Baltimore.

M.C. It's after ten o'clock this is a lot later than I thought

we were going to go, so if we could have just two more quest-

ions...or one more. Yeah?

Q: v______


A: That's not just an Indian problem that's done in every job in

the United States.

Q: But another thing is that uh

work j$ j go to work ------and if they

go to school they go to school...they just...they come home

on the weekends

A: Well, that's the thing I say, when you're bored you drive up




A: ...and do&h the road, and when you're real bored, you raise



A: One of these days, one of the Indians around here is going to

find out about those automated motion picture houses. Get one

of them sixteen milimeters, and just put up the building and

buy the machine, and it sort of runs itself. And somebody is

going to buy the lot next to the shopping center and put up

a movie, and that'll help a lot. Uh, but you're right, and

it's a problem...and Mike Clark, who many of you know, did

a study on recreation down here, and there isn't anything to

do. Uh, you can go to church, and you can drive up and down

the road...go to work...I mean, you know....

M.C. With this one, I think I would like to wind it up and say

enough for tonight. Get your quesitons ready for tomorrow

night, and we'll hope to see you all...and we'll have ei- cr

questions I'm sure.






DATE: MARCH 5, 1973



A: You're dealing more with the .c-.& orientation, more with,

uh, well last night toward the end, I think a really important

question was raised that we didn't answer. And that was the

question of...what can be done about opening up the power

structure, opening up the way things are done in the county

to perhaps give the Indians more voice...give the Indians a

little bit better break, give the Indians perhaps more impor-

tantly, some of things that they feel they want...rather than

the things that they're told they ought to have. Uh, and tonight

I think it's going to be directed very specifically towards

answering in a way...that kind of question. I don't think we

can give you a magic pill, or give you a magi_ button or any-

thing like that, but I think as a group as a group we can

make some recommendations for somethings that you can do that

might work. Uh, the first speaker is going to be Professor

Adolf Dial, who all of you know. He's going to cover a little




A: ...bit about history, some of the significant dates in terms

of the Indians, some of the significant lives thht have shaped

the way Indians are in North Carolina. And so it brings...it

is a historical picture to bring us up to the present. Follow-

ing him, Joel Owl, who many of you know, is going to give you

some of his thoughts about the Pan-Indian Movement. I under-

stand he's got some slides also of the Lumbee Homecoming, and

of some of the other kinds of Indian celebrations that you've

participated in and been to. And winding up our speakers to-

night is going to be Bob Gregory, who is going to talk speci-

fically to community organization, and perhaps some of the

things that you can do to begin to change things a little bit.

George Stout is going to be the reactor...the summarizer for

tonight. George has been...George is with Bureau of Indian

Affairs, he's Creek and Seminole, and I met him before he got

to the big time. And he is, I think, one of the most concerned

people I know in terms of changing the way Indians have been

treated, and changing the position that Indians have held to

this night, in American society. Again we are going to break

after the third speaker, and have a quick cup of coffee, a

few cookies, and then come back, George will sort of wrap

things up, and we'll go into a general discussion session as

we did last night. Incidently, I...in looking through the




A: ...notes that weie taken, my wife took very good notes last

night, I was impressed with the kinds of questions that were

coming out, and the kinds of concern that were behind the

questions. This has been an important experience for me, to

come back down, and to open up, and to get the discussion

back from you. To get really, you know, in a sense this is

our feedback to you, but we're really getting some feedback

from you. And come the next go around of research, or one,

one of your gentleman tells me-maybe the next go around of

research, he should be the project director, and I should

be working for him...and maybe that's right. Maybe that can

happen. O.k. I think I'll start off then handing it over to

Professor Dial...Adolph.

D: Thank you Dr. Peck. I'll be horse if I don't close this

door before I finish...can't stand the draft. Then you can

open it when I It.& C 1 .4 Gregory

said no more than twenty minutes...o.k. Greg. I believe one

of the problems that's been facing the Lumbee Indians over the

many years, is this problem of identity. This problem of a

name. And in dealing with some of the legislation tonight, I

shall mention several bills which dealt with this business of

a name for the Lumbee Indians...or for the Indians of Robeson

County...Robeson and adjoining counties if you please. What




D: ...is an Indian anyway? vi r> Pulitzer

Prize winner, who wrote, - najdl c ^ a,

said at the Tenth Convocation two years ago, sponsored by the

American Indian Historical Society, with headquarters at

1451 /,> Ave., San Francisco..."An American

Indian is-an-idea, it's what one believes himself to be." And

we could say, "What does an Indian look like?" And 3 ubs a

Lee says, "I have often heard the phrase, that he doesn't look

Indian. I've often wondered what an Indian is supposed to

look like. To an outsider he probably looks like the Holly-

wood b c but how many people really know. I've met

people from all tribes. Some look oriental, some have blond

hair and blue eyes, some dark eyes, and some straight black

hair. To me they're all Indians. Not because of their physical

make-up, or because they have a roll stating that they are

Indians, but because he is interested in what happens to his

people. He suffers whenever his people suffer. He enjoys him-

self when he is around his people. And Indian looks like an

Indian not from the outside, but from the inside where it re-

ally counts. I think we have enough discrimination from the

outside...why practice it among ourselves. An Indian is an

Indian no matter what he ieBs like. The problem is not his,

but rather the problem of the person who makes the statement




D: ...that he doesn't look Indian. It makes no difference what

he looks like as long as our hearts and feelings look In-

dian." I like that...I like that very much. If you remember

that tonight, and you don't get anything else out of this

session, I think it will be worth your time here. Let us

deal with some of the historical dates, and let me say that

I am not speaking to scholars, I'm speaking more to the lay-

men at this point. I'm not speaking to scholars, I'm speak-

ing to laymen. And if you know everything I say, why just

take it easy for awhile until the next speaker comes along.

I'd like to begin with 1587 because of John White's lost col-

ony. All of you are familiar with the three early English

voyage...and the third, John White's Lost Colony, which of

course the colony was lost. You know, when he left in 1587,

and returned in 1590 he did not find the colony. Keep in mind

that I only have a few minutes. So he was going to Croatan

the next day, he and the captain, but the captain, something

happened to the ship, and he advised him against it, and they

didn't make the trip to Croatan. Maybe the lost colony was

there. Well, Croatan Indians as a tribe didn't inhabit Croatan

Island...they were Hatterus Indians. And perhaps when Hamilton

McMillan put his bill through in 1885 designating Indians here




D: ...as Croatan Indians...if he had come up with Hatterus Indians

he would have saved a lot of legislation, and a lot of time

over the many many years. Now I'm not suggesting another change

at this point...I want to make that clear. The sixteen hundreds

is pretty much a blank century. Very little happened as far

as recorded history goes. Uh, we have an account of Morgan Jones

but we can't rely on what he said too much. So it's pretty much

a blank period, but maybe the people were migrating in this

direction from Roanoke. 1709...all of you know that's the first

North Carolina historian John Lawson, speaking of the Hatterus

Indians. Talk about these people who speak in the book who have

blue eyes and blond hair, or who talk in the book, and speak

the English language. Or maybe he was talking about some of

their people. And only hit on highlights agd -l1iA _.

In 1754, Governor Dinwitty of Virginia wrote to Governor Dodd,

and he asked for the trip of the Indians in North Carolina.

And Governor Dodd replied, "There's a lawless...there's a law-

less group." And he didn't say a lawless group of Indians,

but there's a lawless group of people we'll say, living on

Drowning Creek, which is the Lumbee River, in this area...who

have taken their land without Quint Rent and /---

once a day. We find by 1775 to 1781, the date of the American

.. .. .



D: ...Revolution that our people fought in the American Revolut-

ion without a doubt. The same goes for the War of 1812. But

the tragic time came to our people in 1835. From 1835 to 1885

was fifty years...it was a dark age. It was fifty years of

uh, you know, a real struggle. You think we have a struggle

now because of the double vote over there in Raleigh, and

some of the guys pass the buck you know. It was a...it was a

time when we were really fighting for our rights. Because the

Constitution of North Carolina was revised in 1835...which

disfranchised the black man. We were not recognized at that

time by the United States Government as some other Indian tribes.

We were not white, we were not black...therefore we were caught

up in a situation as we sometimes say, "Between the devil and

the deep blue sea." Now something that you...most of you have-

n't heard about. There were some supreme court decisions,

state supreme court descissions after 1835. Just happened to

run on these in my research. One was the uh...Charles Oxendine

versus the State of North Carolina, 1837, and Oxendine was

charged with assault and battery. And he pleaded guilty. And

the court ordered him hired out as a "free person of color."

See, from '35 to 1885 we were known as free persons of color.

Then he appealed to the supreme court, and Judge William Jackson,




D: ...and his penmanship is terrible, he prohibited Oxendine from

carrying this...see, Jackson was Catholic, I think he had an

opened mind on the issue, and he didn't want to make a

constitutional decision. And I think he was really, you know,

I really don't know what he had in mind. There was another

case, Noel,.N-o-e-l, Locklear against the State of North

Carolina, 1853...which involved carrying a weapon. And he was

charged with carrying a weapon in violation of the act of

1840. He was a...he was tried, and I think convicted, the best

I could make out. Defendants with...with this man were Troy

Reed, and some other Reed. Well, I thought I would mention there

was another case...John Locklear, I don't have the details on

it, and that happened right about this time. In 1864, well let's

say that the war.. .you know South Carolina seceded from the

Union in 1860, and of course secession followed, and by 1864

the war was almost over. And this was the beginning of the

Lowry Boys, 1864. You know the story of some escaped prisoners

from Florence who came into the area, and perhaps they were

housed near the Lowry...the mother of Henry Barry Lowry speaks

of keeping two or three on occasion. But to move on, we know

this period during the Lowry War, that there were several

causes...I think it goes back to 1835...it goes back to the




D: ...fact that Allen Lowry, the immediate cause. You know Allen

Lowry and-his son William, Henry Barry Lowry's father and

brother being shot. But anyway, perhaps there was a need for

this war at this time. Lumbee Indians today call their number

one hero Henry Barry Lowry...over the ages. I want to make

that plain to you. My mother was a very good Christian Methodist,

and you know she thinks Henry Barry Lowry was a great man. He

was. This is the way we think about-Henry Barry Lowry, he was

a great man. We decorate people who go to Vietnam, or we build

great statues showing raising the flag on Iwo Jima. You know,

and we do a whole lot of things...right? You're supposed to

say right. I'm not going to say anything about the Lowry Gang

because that would take weeks. Since I'm only hitting high

lights of dates...in 1885 the North Carolina Legislature pass-

ed a law designating the Indians of Robeson County as Croatans,

and all of us are familiar with this. Well this did a lot for

us. The minutes of the Burnt Swamp Baptist Association show

in 1881...they met in 1880, they kept no meetings...no minutes,

but in 1881 they met. And the minutes of the Burnt Swamp Bap-

tist Association...called their organization the Burnt Swamp

Baptist Association of the mixed race. They had no name. It

was a struggle. And I want to find out...during the entire




D: ...struggle there were those who would have tried to make the

Indians black, and put them down low, and kept them there.

I'm not saying all white people would have done it...no, but

there were some who would have. In '87 was the beginning of

Pembroke State University...Croatan Normal School. And it first

had course rates hanging under the door $- uau We -j. o> -4

My grandfather inscribed it there. Now the Legislation in 1885

provided for public schools, let me say that. Now Hamilton

McMillan, representative from Red Springs, and I understand

in this community at one time we had a Hamilton McMillan Day

for awhile. I was told this by Judge Early It

had been told...his parents told him about .l AiUm And

the Indian people thought well of Hamilton McMillan, and I

think he did a...deserves a building on the Pembroke State

University campus, and I hope the board of Trustees will get

around to it some time. Hamilton McMillan was a great friend

to the Indian people. I feel that way and I might as well speak

it. Of course the name Croatan was based on the lost colony

theory that I think yaBfe heard.But the name didn't work out

too well because the white people of the area caused the

Indian people of the area to despise.,..the name Croatan, so

when it was used in such a derogatory manner, and perhaps so




D: ...often, the Indians soon said let's change this name. And

I notice that the Burnt Swamp Baptist Association dropped

after a few years, they dropped the name Croatan...they used

it the first time there I told you...the uh... s-

chA- 'frcz then they dropped Croatan. But by 1911 we were

knocking on legislative halls again. Just as we were knocking

today, but for different purpose, they didn't make er o

,_ ___ this meeting. I'd like to wish you well who

went...I'm with you. I'm against double voting. Not to lose

my trend of thought. But in 1911, we were designated as Indians

of Robeson County. And of course the name of the Institution

had to change. But we only kept that name for two years. In

1913 you know people said,"Well golly...Indians of a county...

why we're something more than that. Let's have a name." In

1913...Cherokee Indians of Robeson County. Well the Cherokee

Indians of western North Carolina never did like this move.

And rightfully so. Now I'm not saying there's not some

Cherokee blood in this area. We have some Cherokee blood in

the area. But we had the new bill, 1913, Cherokee Indians of

Robeson County. Do-you remember-oId Cherokee Normal School

/- ^ ? Is that what it was called, Cherokee

Normal School?




U: That's right.

D: Then we went up to Pembroke State College for a year, and

then it was Pembroke State College, and then Pembroke State

University. Another something ip...another important some-

thing happened the same year, 1913. This most of you don't

know about. You know it happened, but you didn't know when

it happened. And that...to...for the protection of the In-

dian...of the public schools of Robeson County. And the

first committee...the legislature set up J.E. Woodall, H.T.

Lowry, O.H. Lowry, and W.B. Welby. Now this committee had

the power to keep the schools clear, so to speak, of people

of Indian blood...they'd have to trace their ancestors to

Robeson County. Not even an Indian from Oklahoma could at-

tend the institution at that time. Now you look back today,

and you say, "Well how stupid!" But never the less, I'm tel-

ling you the way it was. And if something happened to one

of the committeemenhere... they had the power to name his

successor. But the Robeson County Board of Education...I

didn't know that until this week...they could veto their

action. But I don't think they ever did. They left it to

them. 1914 M. McPhearson came here from the Dep-

artment of Interior as a special agent. And...my time is




D: ...almost up...came here as a special agent from the Dep-

artment of Interior, and he did a wonderful job with his

study, M McPhearson...1914. I might say that

uh...later on in the decade, World War II did something.

It gave our boys a chance to go away. And they didn't know

very much, they hadn't been any place. And the first

seargent down at Camp Jackson, he called the role, and

he said, "OXENDINE, LOCKLEAR..." we'll say John Locklear,

and this actually happened...and Locklear says, "Seargent

you've called my name backwards." And the seargent says,

"We'll have no more damn wisecracks out of you." But before

...I mean by the time the basic training was over, the

captain stepped out and he said, "I'd rather have men like

Oxendine, brother Locklear5and so forth, and there was

another Dial in there-. "I'd rather have these men...I'd ra-

ther go overseas with these men, than a whole damn company

of you white men." They made number one soldiers, and don't

you forget it. One of them returned later and the word, you

know, was out that he was dead, and they backed up the wa-

gon at Red Banks waiting for the corpse, and out walked

Abner Locklear. And we said, "Why Abner, we thought you

were dead." He says, "I'm mighty sorry you got disappointed,,




D: The 1930s saw more action for recognition and a name than

any other time in the history of our race. And the boys

deserve a lot of recognition for their hard work. You

know...on the they laid the

ground work for Lumbee I think...to a great degree. because

Lumbee, Santee, Wateree, Teepe, psuedo names...you know,

Lumbee, Teedee, Congoree, Santee, all of these were ee?

Hamilton McMillan says that the old Indians call Lumbee

River Lumbee River. Only he says Lumber River Lumbee River.

All of you now need to call it Lumbee River. If the legis-

lature won't change the name change it yourself. I never

refer to it as Lumber River...I say Lumbee River. I'm going

swimming this summer in Lumbee River. And she's a fine river,

the poet says, and speaking of names in 1953, of course the

state legislature recognized the Indians as Lumbee Indians.

And in 1956 we had our first congressional approval signed

by the President...as Lumbee Indians. Now I'm not saying

there's not Tuscarora blood here. There is Tuscarora blood

in Robeson County without a doubt. And those who choose to

be of the Tuscarora tribe have faith to feel that way. And

don't rule it out because that could take time and it's

still true. What I'm saying is true.




D: McNeil, North Carolina's great poet says

about the river, "And subject to change..." And you know

we're...our names have been changing...and he wrote in 1905,

"As subject to change as peas and as any girl that goes.

And no human angel ever possessed more variable hues and

tints and shadows in her misty eyes...than this unconscious

flirt...where the reflection of flags and reeds and rushing

ripples below her banks, and the yellow of the gravel bot-

tom in shallow places darken gradually to the black depths."

And he goes on and he has a lot to say. And on down here I

notice..."that her playmates know that she is as reckless

as her name...as a rose is. She is just as wild, wondering

about in her solemn swamps as she was when the Indians cal-

led her Lumbee." And he ends with a last sentence..."Come

summer, I'll throw myself on her breast again and feel her

cool soft arms around me." 1905. She's a beautiful river.

Now I'm sorry I didn't have more time to deal with a lot of

things, but my time is up. But we could have dealt all

night with Henry Barry Lowry. But I'll quote a little

poem I wrote on Henry Barry Lowry, and I want you to re-

member it because it tells something.




D: "Henry Barry Lowry, where are you sleeping in an unknown

grave? Does the water flow through your bones..."

Correction on the tape huh?

"Henry Barry Lowry, where are you sleeping in an unknown

grave? Does the grass grow over your breast, or do waters

flow through your bones? That will confuse mankind until

the end of time. You are the hero of a people...keep your

secrets. That is part of your greatness.

A: Our next person is Bill Owl, it's going to take him a minute

to set up.

0: So that's what I've been doing. Three or four years ago in

Fayetteville, and most recently in Raleigh. I'm using the

drug scene in Raleigh as a way of getting asked quesitons

in my communtiy, and trying to bring about some changes that

I hope are good for many people. I don't know if it really

works that way or not. Through the years...the past five

years I've kind of evolved a chalk board talk about under-

standing the community, as I understand it, and I'm going

to draw a bunch of pictures on the chalk board. To make them

a little bit more Indian I thought that I might have such

things as arrows, and a medicine wheel, and a teepee. But




0: ...I'll be using some pictures like that all the way through

and I'll probably have some different names for them as I go

along. The way I got started in this was through something

called systems theory, and systems sounds complicated...it's

really a very simple kind of thing. There are elements. Ele-

ments can be any thing you want to call elements. Which

sometimes get linked together through exchanges. For example,

people talking together. And sometimes the exchange is

___ -__ enough that there may be a eventually

a boundary that differentiates what's in and what's outside.

And that really complicates the quest of the identity...

question...when you've got a system, you've got a non-system

or an environment outside of it. But there may be elements

still wandering around out there. There may also be things

like feedback, or information from the environment that goes

into the system. There may be directionality, or the thing

may arraine itself so that it has some kind of purpose and

values and things like that. Well that's the whole notion

of systems theory. Systems theory can be applied to a lot

of things. I use it to try to understand my community. In

thinking of a community I look first and notice there are




0: ...some people who in a sense constitute elements. And I

think way back in history of some of our communities we

had people who were fairly isolated, sometimes on the fron-

tier, or some times in isolated bands, or groups of people.

After a period of time numbers increased and people began

to settle down. There were more exchanges. And rather

than be isolated there were more and more groupings. These

groupings really formed small towns for example. I like to

think of that as small town America...with an identifiable

community with the people mostly linked together with some

patterns of exchanges for example, some people might be a

business man, or a doctor, or lawyer, housewife, farmer, so

forth. Whereas maybe in-an earlier time people were more

self-subsistant. They would have...they had less dependence

on others occupationally or otherwise. Well this lasted for

awhile and really now we've got very complex communities

with just dozens and dozens of groups. And we have people

who also act as consultants and travel around from place to

place in the thing too. It's a lot more complicated than in

the small town kind of thing. Where you've got both the

small groups, and you've also got people who are constant-

ly moving about. Well if we think of this, and maybe began




0: ...then to add another dimension. Who makes decisions, and

who controls what other people do...we began to find that

these people were self-subsistant...took care of their

ownselves, made decisions for themselves. Their decisions

usually did not affect other people very much if they

weren't linked together. So I could of kind of diagram

that as a kind&of system of-equality. I don't know if that

ever really existed in absolute terms, but maybe there's

a tendency toward that. In a small town, notice that some

individuals have more exchanges going for them than others,

and that means their decisions sometimes count for more,

they're very often the leaders. And some are kind of left

out, and they don't...their decisions don't count for as

much. So you kind of have some leaders up at the top of

a teepee here, and some people scattered through the mid-

dle, and some people at the bottom. And the linkages are

still very much there, so that those leaders, and follow-

ers in between...I could draw a lot more linkages there,

but I think we got the the picture. In a larger community....






DATE: MARCH 5, 1973



0: ...And I think my community of Raleigh, in 1900, there were

maybe twenty-thousand people there, twenty-five-thousand,

but today there are something like two-hundred-and-twenty-

thousand. So the size of the thing has increased very dra-

matically. Also, with that increase in size, let's go back

to leaders, go back to powers. Sometimes we have class

lines forming where we're kind of held in place. People

are upwardly mobile for the most part. They try to accom-

plish certain values, goals, directions...good things.

And really, the energy of the people gets directed toward

those things...the leaders are there first, and the follow-

ers try to get there. Same thing here, there's the people

usually trying to be upwardly mobile, trying to work hard,

get a better job; work hard, get a better education for

kids; work hard in school, get better grades...able to do

a little bit better in the future. They've had a lot of

future orientation, and lots of attempts to better our

position, and move upward. The community I think has




0: ...changed, the ones I've worked in, Fayetville and Raleigh,

in that, two years back, I think the...the difference was

lots. For example: if you were able to.that far, you moved

a great distance. You did a lot better. And now, if you

move that far, you!ve:still maybe moved an equal distance,

but the scene got so much bigger that I wonder sometimes

if it does...suddenly it doesn't mean very much to be up-

wardly mobile. And I think sometimes the competition gets

a little bit rougher. Also, the distance from the bottom,

in a small community, even if you're hurting...if you're

struggling at the very bottom of things, you have low in-

come, broken family, poor housing, on and on and on...you

still have access to those people who make decisions. It

may take several steps to get up there, but your voice

can be heard in your community, and you can influence the

decisions that are made...hopefully. But then when-we-get

over here.,-and we are herding down there, and you go to

somebody who goes to somebody who goes to somebody, and

you try to get your voice heard by those who make the

decisions...and the communication pattern breaks down.

So what happens is, if you're down here, your voice never

gets heard by those who are making the decisions that




0: ...affect you. Some of the kinds of things I see happening

in the communities I've worked with...here's the...o.k.

community here...this makes sense by the way. Leaders at

the top, followers at the bottom...o.k. I see some heads

nodding...the poor are generally caught down here. The

poor is here at thecottom. You've also probably got some

kind of prejudice from up here working, pushing you even

down further. My own work has been in the, since the

last two years, has been in the area of drug addiction,

and I find the people who turn...well who are sometimes

caught in an impossible position sometimes turn to heavy

alcohol use, heroin use, sometimes people who are caught

struggling, trying to climb the ladders here, you know,

kind of like having to...to work hard all day, come home

at night, you're so tense, and been through so much

stress at working at a o.k. job, but not the greatest job

that you really want. By the time you come home you're so

tired, drained, it's all you can do to open a can of beer,

sit there and try to relax...and sit yourself back down

and take some tranquilizers to manage that stress. Of

course the next morning you've got to go to work...you




0: ...have to have a whole lot of coffee to get you started to

be able to work hard, climb the ladder, get the job done

for the day. And people use the "ups" and "downs" or

amphetamines and "barbs" in the...in the same kind of way.

Mood regulators are useful there when you've got to work

at a difficult job, and when you've got to be able to go

to sleep at night because you're so upset with the way

things are going. Another thing I see in the communities

are...increasingly throughout the community, pep le are

questioning these values, the goals, the directions, the

purposes that we've had. Especially when on a national

level we run into some things where we aren't really sure

those directions that we're going in...maybe those direc-

tions aren't right. I think a lot of us have had questions

about how we...the Vietnam war, about cutting back poverty

programs...about lots of things, so increasingly I think

we question our destiny...our direction that we're setting.

Another kind of thing that I think happens here, is that

very often our communities are split, so that some of us

may live in one place, and we don't communicate with our

neighbors. Sometimes we're split by...I don't know...not

only geographic area, but by the different kinds of




0: ...occupational groups we have in a community. So that we,

we never look this way, and we never look this way. We're

too busy trying to climb the ladder up this way, and we

lose sight of our neighbors, or our...other people who

could be our friends who may have a different discipline,

different role in their community. They get hostility in-

stead...they compete with them, and...in our climb upward.

Another thing I see happening very much, is that these

barriers sometimes change in how rigid they are. But I

think some of the recent research that I've seen indicates

that a lot of the barriers are pretty solid. That there

are lots of subtle barriers, there are lots of pretty open

barriers. But I think in the last few days...I'm...I'm

very convinced there are lots of barriers if you're anazi--

lidian, I tMink there are lot& of barlIertif you're black

based on skin color. There're economic barriers, social

barriers, political barriers, education, on and on and on.

Well, it's...that's the way a community is set up these

days, and I'm not totally sure that this is the way it is,

but increasingly I see that that kind of description fits

the communities I know. if that's the case what can we do?




0: ...Are there some things we can do in our communities so that

people down here have a greater say in decision making,

so that when these people allocate resources, and they

make those decisions in good things that happen...so that

these people are heard and have a chance to get those

things. So that maybe sometimes these barriers aren't so

rigid. So that maybe these lines here that keep us apart

from each other...is there some way to reduce that. This

is the kind of thing that I've concerned myself about ,

with Raleigh and Fayetville too. Some of the strategies

pertained, and I'm going to run through a whole bunch of

them because I think they're important. One of the things

that I used to think could happen, would be that to just

get the word to these people, and they could make some

changes happen. We've just got a problem, and it'll...it'll

all turn right. Well, we tried that...it didn't work.

These people are held in place, both by the push from up

here...these people are busy climbing up there, and they-

are held in place because of that. But also, if you've

dealt with some of the elites, they're linked in with ot-

her elites and other places, so that if you're going to

change one, you've got to change a great many. Community




0: ...leadership in many places, the leaders go around from city

to city. They're kind of locked in there because of maybe

state or federal kinds of things as well, so they can't

really change very much. Well, that didn't work too well.

Another kind of thing, I've had some academic training in

how to rehabilitate individuals, and I set out to do

things like that. Find somebody who was hurting, evaluate

them, get them some special training, fix them up, get them

up here where everything is good. And great, he's happy,

making a productive living, he's not poor anymore...fine,

works great for an individual. But there's a slight prob-

lem in that too, in that you can keep bringing individuals

up here, but other individuals get pushed down here I

think at the same time. The structure stays the same, and

you end up with many poor people, many hurting people, and

the same kind of situation all over again. It's important

to the individual, but somehow it doesn't really bring

about the like results for the whole community. Another

kind of strategy is to begin organizing. And I know there

are many here who organized at one time or another...again,

where people are hurting. And grassroots organizing...you




0: ...get together a group of people who are caught here, build

an organization, and start trying to move the whole thing up

the ladder. Or another kind of thing, you begin-to move out-

side. You've got two...two possible directions here. And if

you've got a really together group of people, and you're re-

ally te n with it you might be able to move some distance,

but as we talked, I think, yesterday, once these people begin

to notice what's going on here they get pretty threatened.

And the first thing you know, they start monitoring what's go-

ing on, and then set up a kind of blockade there, and start

coming down heavy as a threat recoil cycle. As soon as there's

a threat they start recoiling against it. So that doesn't work

too well either. Well, we've tried all those kinds of-things,

and I've...I don't know...we used to be caught.somewhere...

probably somewhere down here. I figure gee...what am I going

to do? My next thought was maybe I should just try to move

right on out someplace and do a long haired hippy thing, and

find a quiet farm somewhere, and move to a quiet place. But

somehow that doesn't work either because once you move out-

side these lines here...pretty often you're fair game. You

break one of these rules or laws or something, as soon as you




0: ...move outside theap norms that holds the system together.

So that didn't work very well either. And especially people

who move outside this way or whatever are caught in the same

type trap that the poor generally are. They're fair game. If

you're down here, you're fair game for the police department,

fair game for every social agency, you're fair game for every

kind of thing that can...can happen. And you've got no avenue

to redress wrongs. Now after all those kinds of things I think

back and try to figure...where do I go from here? And I'm

still struggling with that a lot, had some thoughts. One thing

I've noticed is that there've been some technological changes

in our culture which have really changed this as they've hap-

pened. The technology that was invented twenty-five, thirty

years ago that has influenced us very subtlely, very deeply,

we haven't really noticed this. Kind of pushed on the middle,

and really, eliminated middle class America in a great sense.

And what we've ended up with is...either you've got a kind of

power, or you're a person. And that power whatever it may be

begins to control you. Some of the technological changes I'm

talking of here...include the computer. If you've ever argued

with a computer that's got your address wrong on a mailing




0: ...list, you know how a computer has power...the individual

doesn't. Another kind of thing is the atomic bomb...which

has an ultimate kind of power, and we just hope, we don't

know, we don't have very much say in the decision really.

Some other kinds of things like this...television, mass-media,

mass-transit. Another kind of thing is a lecture, such as is

going on right now that you can, sitting here, where some

supposed expert stands up here and delivers a message. And

you are forced to sit there and listen, and you have very

little chance to really send back messages, or to carry on

a discussion. And increasingly I think our lives are caught

in this kind of alwhirl. We can change it, and I see that as

a kind of direction that we are going in, and have been going

in. Well...what I've set about in Raleigh, has been, how do

you begin a ten, twenty year project just like Bill Lyles has

been talking about. I felt a lot of kinship with what he was

talking about. Are there some ways you can take this, kind of

a thing and redesign it? Maybe say that it's like this. And,

so that more people have more say in decision making, so that

more people look to each other, rather than just up the lad-

der, and so that there are fewer people hurting. I know a lot




0: ...of people say that there's always going to be people who

are hurting, but at least we can reduce the number if that

has to be a true kind of thing. One of the ways that I've

been working on this, is through a large scale series of

discussion groups. Trying to bring people together from

different parts of the community. And I have the communities

kind of split up in a lot of different ways, for example,

by race, by income level, by geographic area, by age, by...

I don't know, we could go on and list a lot of other things

here to. But when we divide up a community as they seem to

be increasingly people don't talk to each other if they're

different from themselves. They don't have a sense of com-

munity or identity. And it's very easy to put everybody

else down, and ignore that larger community in that sit-

uation. So we've started working with some discussion groups

where we've sat people around in a medicine wheel kind of

circle, and gotten discussions going, where we've had some

exciting kinds of things happen. Being black and white, and

in Fayetville we did have a very small number two or three

Indians, in the project we ran there with the police depart-

ment, and a variety of other groups somewhat similar to this.




0: We hadspeople-from different income levels, different geo-

graphic areas of the community, different age groups, lots

of other kinds of differences...by getting involved in a

discussion group we've been able to stimulate some action

groups. We're using the drug scene as a vehicle for enter-

ing into the community. We aren't just concerned about the

drug scene...what's happening there...important, very def-

initely. We're more concerned about the people throughout

the community beong able to talk to each other, being

acquainted with the problems that exist in different parts

of the community, being knowledgeable, having experience

knowing another person that's different. We've seen some

changes...some good things. We're going to be running

something on the order of fifteen discussion groups start-

ing next week in Raleigh. Each group will have about fif-

teen people. There's been two sessions similar to this in

the past year, so we're beginning to get to...well, we've

already reached four-hundred people, and I think over a

ten year period if you keep this kind of a process going,

there may begin to be...eventually...some changes in the




0: ...thing. I don't really know if that's going to happen or

not. I can only hope. I think I might try to stop at that.

I wrote down a couple of thoughts here. I think this group

right here represents a kind of mechanism somewhat similar

to that, somewhat similar to the pow wows, where people

from a large area get together, exchange ideas, get aquainted,

develop some symbols of identity of meaningfulness to them,

and begin to be concerned about their larger community, and

make some things happen. Is it possible to continue meetings

such as this, maybe in a different form? Can this group do

that? Another thing might be some sort of a community educa-

tion group for progress somewhat similar to what we've been

doing in Raleigh, where we've developed a large series of

discussion groups, but each discussion group has involved

people from a diversity of backgrounds. That might be a pos-

sible kind of thing that could be set up here someday, per-

haps to bring about what I'm trying to change.

A: O.k., I think we'd like to break for coffee and cookies now,

and then reconvene in about fifteen minutes if you will, and

we'll have George Stout talk....

U: Tell me when they say we can close the door now.

V: Maybe...




U: Alrighty... thank you.

A: I think if you'll all take your seats now, we can start on

the second part. For the summary and second part George

Stout is going to start us off, and then we'll have an open

sort of free swinging quesiton and answer period...with peo-

ple that spoke tonight. George?

S: I sometimes have a tendency to start out real loud, and get

real real low...so if you can't hear me in the rear just

raise your hands up, and I'll try and increase my...my vol-

ume. I guess it's awful hard sometimes to reinterpret what

people have said, and particularly when you're sitting there

and, you know, get your ...get your thoughts...get your way

of thinking...have a tendency to go just the opposite. I

guess what I'd like to do is take a look at about four issues

and try to see what has been said, and what needs to be said,

or what should be said...and we'll go from there. It's often

hard for people such as the Indians here I guess in North

Carolina, particularly in this area. Things I've heard this

evening about your history, language because for an Indian

coming from Oklahoma, it's very hard for-me-torceeteptualize

how hard it would be. For.me...I didn't have a history, did-

n't have a language. I was raised in a traditional way, that




S: ...at the age of six, I could speak no English. And I think

it's very vital, that the...that the research that's being

undertaken here is very needed. Sometimes history, tradition

has advantages and disadvantages the thing that happened in

Ireland...the thing that happened right here in this country,

some of its disadvantages. I'd like to relate to you though

a story that my grandfather once told me. I guess which I

hold very deer to my heart, and I guess that would explain

to you the need for, as I would say a history. My grandfather,

at the age of sixty-seven, and I was at about the age of five

or six...just beginning to get into public schools, use to re-

lay this to me. Use to wake me up at four-thirty, and we'd

go out and slop the hogs, and feed the pigs, and do this, you

know. And at the age of five or six, you know, I mean you

wanted to sleep late. He instilled in me a discipline that I

guess I'll never forget. Because the words, in his own words,

used to say that this is a white man's world. He said you,

he said you have to act, you have to think, you have to be

almost a white man. But he says, I want you to remember one

thing...he said, above and beyond anyhting else, he says,

you always remember that you're an Indian...that you're a

Creek. And I guess this has kind of...you know, every time




S: ...things get a little rough I remember that. And I guess

what I interpret that to mean...like everything is role

playing. You role...you learn how to play a particular type

of role. Whether it's a father, mother, son, a professor in

front of somebedydhe!s-g6ing todlecturecorewhat ever. And I

guess one of the things that I see among Indians is that,

914, we have not learned how to play the role. And I think

this is where a lot of our conflicts arise. So I would urge

that anything you can do to preserve what little history,

what little research that you can do-to acquire this kind of

typegof thing, whether it be written, verbal...that you hang

on to it because for some of us, that's all we've got left.

I would also urge you that you do everything you can to find

out everything you can about your...about your history, your

past and so forth. I'm sorry to say I have nothing else to

say in that area because the Lumbees, as you know, I didn't

know they existed until maybe 1953 or four or five. I'd like

to turn now to pan-Indianism. Some of the things you saw and

heard some of the things I would've said about pan-Indianism.

I hope that pan-Indianism...the word is new, the concept is

new. It began in the late 30s and it began to flourish in the

early 40s when Indians began their mass-migration to urban




S: ...areas. I like to look at the word pan-Indianism as a

form of communication between ...between groups, between

individuals, between tribes. A way of learning one another's

...one other...or another individual's way, his past, his

history, or whatever. I hope pan-Indianism will not replace

individual tribal history, tradition, and so forth. In a

session last night I was told that they felt that Indianism

was...was something in...I guess in history...it was...it

would eventually die out. I had to disagree, because I

think the very fact that there is someone here in your

community that's doing research, also that there are a

number of individuals here or they are concerned that some

new awakening or awareness has taken place. And I think the

population census of 1970 indicates that. I disagree with

the census but whatever. Pan-Indianism suggests to me,

again I say, an exchange of information. The more informa-

tion that you can find out about other Indians, other tribes,

a good example was last night when I was invited to attend

one of the singing sessions...a lot of the songs I've heard,

-_r.______ and so forth, I think that's

good. Community organization...I believe in a whole series

of organizations. Three...almost three years ago when the




S: ...commissioner was putting together a group of Indian ex-

ecutives to...to take over BIA, I was one of them. The

thing that we forgot to do, is we forgot to organize a

local...Indians. Even though I felt our ideas was good,

without relation, or relaying information down to local

areas we got hit and hit hard. We got clobbered. In order

to change a system, I think first you must isolate an issue,

that issue has to be geared to your heart, or some...an

issue that steps on your toes. As an example, let's take a

look at the Alaskan Claim. I feel that the Alaskan Claim

will be the biggest rape this country has ever seen. But

the lower forty-eight states are doing nothing about it as

far as being Indians. An Indian group gets into trouble,

other Indian groups have a hands-off kind of thing. Some-

where, somehow, organizations have to be formed...around

issues. Max Weber once said, "A creation of an organization,

you're also creating a second organization, a third organiza-

tiOn that'll eventually destroy you." This is good, that's

the way it should be...because I feel that organizations

should probably last no more than three or four years...then

new ideas have to emerge...new ideas, new concepts, new di-

rections have to make way. And I think that's one of the




S: ...reasons about the failure of the federal system, universities,

local systems and so forth. I think what you've heard the past

two evenings, and I think one thing that you should be vitally

interested in is how do you make the system that exists service

you. How do you make that system deliver the system...the ser-

vices that you need. The things you do, and the things you don't

do it's easy for some of us to get up here and tell you how to

do things, but in actuality, being realistic about it, when you'

begin to implement them...that's where it hurts. Idea, implemen-

tation and results are three distinct different things. The

federal system has not...has not worked because it has not been

able to implement. I'd like to take a crack at research. Research

is good to some extents...some other extents it is not good.

Communities such as this, I think when you let a researcher in,

I think that research should be based on your needs, community

needs, not because of some idea set at a university, wanting to

get his MA degree, PhD, or do some clinic research. And I think

that academicians in universities should keep that in mind. That

when they enter a community to do research...that they've got to

keep community needs at heart. Because if you want to change, you

need some valid information, and research can get that for you.




S: Last week I spent the week in New Orleans listening to pre-

sentations,different techniques of research, research papers

and so forth ...that was put on by the American Education

Research Association. There were about thirty papers present-

ed on Indians...only three of them were Indian. All thirty

of them should have been Indians. So these are the things

that we're looking at. I have no qualms about non-Indians

doing research, so long as they keep the needs of the com-

munity at heart, and they focus around that. Because what the

community gets they can use, and utilize effectively. And I

think that possibly that this in essence is what some of the

things I've heard here, some of the things that...some ideas

that I've.tried.to-convey to you. In short, and it may not

be what you want to hear...that's...I'm usually frank, to the

point, and I don't like to use too m any adjectives. One of

the things that you should realize and use...utilize, is the

university right here. Because in theory, this institution

was toset up, and all other institutions, were set up to

give service to the community, whether it be a social agency,

whether it be a university or whatever. And I guess in leav-

ing, or closing...I'd like to leave just one word with you.

That's what Benjamin Franklin once said. And he said that,




S: ..."If one person has rights," then he said that one person

who has rights, and probably in all actuality that somewhere

there is a right," but he says, "if we deny that one person

his right to think and speak," then he said, "what we have

is," he said "we have denied that people can govern themselves."

With that I would like to go.

U: I think what I'd like now is for you George, and Joel, and

Bob Gregory and Adolph to take the hotline and have questions.

Q: I'd like to go ahead and ask a question in relation to the

people last night. We did all the research, and after you heard

all the facts and cd@o 4, conclusions,I

assume you turned it back in to the federal government, and

I'd like to know if they have reviewed that

they may look into the problems that fttd in the way of the

Indian people attaining the goals that they have in mind as

far as education, technology, this type of thing, and if the

federal government has agreed to look into these problems,

who will administer these problems among the Lumbee people

here in Robeson County 7,- L\ .9

S: Let me react to that from a...I guess from a federal stand-

point, and I'll leave you some examples...different education,

and not just necessarily as a federal Indian education. We've




S: ...had research done since, that I'm real familiar with,

since 1928 with the Report. I look at that,

just a waste of funds and a waste of information, because

since that time it's all been rhetoric. The Highland/Hearst

Report to a great extent reenforced what he said back in

1928. I see the /. .f_ Associates Survey that was done

four or five years ago...I don't know if there's one federal

individual who's opened them to look at them. That's why I

guess to one extent that this kind of feedback is good,

because I think it has to be done at a-local area .And the

other thing that I've got to say I guess is that the agencies

the federal agencies respond to the situation.

U: Ouch. :

Q: I'd like to ask one other' question. What was the purpose of

the research?

U: Let me think...

Q: the program.

0: Oh...o.k. Well, I can talk about the...for anybody taping,

this is off the record. I suggest....

Most federal funded...much federal funded research is grant.

The conclusions are contained in the proposal. In other words,

you're going before you start. The education research that




0: ...we did was approved what any damn fool already knew. Which

was that you weren't getting the kind of education that you

wanted. You wanted more Indian history in your education,

that Indian kids were not dumber than other people, you know,

things like this. And you do this kind of research in the

hope that the guy who makes the ultimate decision about where

the dollars go could not pick up the book and say, "I made

that decision because all this evidence suggests that that's

the decision I should make...without ever having looked at

it. It discourages this. We know the things that we came out

with, and we know that there are reports since 1928. Not much

has been done about it...a little bit, but not much. They did

pass the new Indian Educa....



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