Title: Interview with Plummer Locklear, Jr. (July 8, 1973)
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007096/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Plummer Locklear, Jr. (July 8, 1973)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: July 8, 1973
Subject: Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians
Mississippi Choctaw.
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00007096
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Mississippi Choctaw' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 109A

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Full Text


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SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.

INTERVIEWER: Dexter Brooks

I: T'm interviewing Mr. Plummer Locklear Jr.. Today's date is 8 July,

1973. Mr. Plummer....Mr. Locklear, when were you born?

S: September 17, 1942.

I: And where was your place of birth?

S: 4k County, North Carolina.

I: ou presently reside in-e.4krCounty?

S: Uh, yes I do.

I: Who was your, uh, parents?

S.t Locklear, and Lois D. Locklear....her maiden name was

I: What was your father's occupation?

S: He's, uh, well, at the time of my birth he was a farmers Then

he, uh, went with the North Carolina Department of Corrections

and he worked there until he became sick this past February.

He's on retirement now.

I: Let's see. Your father, uh, did he own his own land?
1L e
S: Oh yeah, he had roughly I 'd 80 acres.

I: This is the land that he farmed?

S: Right, plus he also rented farms,during the time he was farming,

from other persons, such as the Paine s and ( a name

over at Red Springs, you know. He always farmed more than his


P. 2
NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.

I: Then your boyhood days were spent on this farm?

S: On the farm, right.

I: What sort of crops did you raise?

S: Cotton, tobacco, corn, wheat. That was the major things. He

also, in the some of the years he worked the farm, he also did

some truck farming--watermelons for sale, you know.... cucumbers,

onions, tomatoes. He also did some of fa oe

commercial farming.

I: Did he raise any livestock?

S: No, not really. Nothing but more or less for tle- home use. He

raised, you know, a few hogs. We farmed some with mules and

later went to tractors, so we got rid of the mules. -W& never

really had.... we've never really had a cow.

I: How many mules did it take to farm your land?

S: Uh, he's had as high as three. Then when he got the tractor,

then he dropped down to one, you know. Then finally, completely

got out of the mule business.

I: You say you raised hogs. Did he butcher the hogs himself?

S: Usually he did.

I: Did he, uh, keep any, uh, say, uh, did he raise any meet, say uh,

for the table?

S- No, no, he's never butchered any Aa-...we always bought this.

I: How would you describe your father, personality-wise?

S: Uh, well, he's a good man. He's not a religious man. He's very

strict, not as far as, say, you goin out, datin', you know when

NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p. 3) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.

(S:) we were young. But he's very... he's always been very strict on

making sure you went to school and this type thing. He's

always been very concerned about.....uh.....as he always said,

"doin' better than he did"--you know. Or going farther in life

than he did. This has always been his main interest. But he

has an interesting personality,. it's interesting to talk to


I: What about your mother?

S: Well, my mother's a little more relaxed than my father. She's

always been more, I guess you would say, more the party-type

than my father. My mother's always loved parties. She's always

enjoyed going out picnicing, and she loves to travel, and she's

a hard worker. She's 58 now and still employed in the textile


I: How many....uh, were you an only child, or you had how many

brothers and sisters?

S: No, I'm the baby of two. I have an older sister. She's 33.

I: Your early education consisted of what? You attended what school?

S: Well, when I first started school we had a little 4-room, frame

schoolhouse at the church) ) in the churchyard. And I went my
first four years to this small i-room schoolhouse, which had

two teachers for everyone. Then I....then they built a. the

school Hawkeye, so then I started at Hawkeye in the fifth grade,

went through the eighth, and complete high school there.

NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p.4) TYPIST: Mary Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.

I: How well did you get along in school?

S: I really didn't have any problems, ,)any significant problems

that I can remember in school. I always had good grades. I

was always interested in education, and didn't really have any

discipline problems or any problems with the teachers.

I: You were well-liked by your classmates?

S: Oh yeah. I was always more or less the, you know--the class has

a clown. I was.....I've always more or less been the clown of
_1 0As&-He d loioLv
the class. I don't tfea_-r as far as, you know, everyone

putting me down for any reason, but I always tried to keep things

going, you kno make people smile.

I: You were always the life of the party?

S: Well, more or less. I guess you could say that, yeah.

I: What about academically? What were you interested in?

S: Art and music. That's always been my two pet peeves.

I: Did the school you attended offer this ype of instruction?

S: No, not in elementary or high school. No, I.wi...during

my high school, I took a correspondence course from Art Instructions,

Inc., I believe it was from Minneapolis or Indianapolis)-one--

Indianapolis, Minnesota. I took a 4-year correspondence art

course and then I.... Picked up on art at college and formal

music training at college, or instructions. But none at the

lower levels.

NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p.5) TYPIST: Mary Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.

I: In high school, what subjects did you like?

S: Well, strangely enough, even though I don't really know much

about it now- I can't recall much of it now-I was very good

in Math and I was interested in Math in elementary and high

school. I was more interested in that subject than v any

other that I had.

I: What sort of teachers did you have in high school? Any that

stand out in your mind?

S: Well, I can remember quite a few of my teachers, but I didn't

have any that was really what I would class as great instructors

other than, I would say, Nash Locklear. I'm not sure if you

know....he's also a preacher I_- c44 -o5 KtK,.

I: No, I don't think I'm familiar with him.

S:; Well, he was ......

I: What subject did he teach?

S: Well, back in those days, it was a combination of quite a few
youL 5e .
kia- The schools really wasn't staffed to have, say, a

Math teacher that taught nothing but Math, or a History teacher.

You may have one teacher, say, for three courses.

I: I see then..,

S: He taught me in Math. He's taught me some History, some English,

You see, it was.....they were very understaffed, you see, because

all the teachers....everything was segregated.....all the teachers

NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p. 6) TYPIST: Mary Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Tr.

(S:'were Indians, and there just wasn't too many Indian teachers

to spread around.

I: I see,Then.. the school you attended was all Indian, and you

say Hawkeye was completed in what year?

S: I think, uh, let's see...around 1949 ori'50, I believe. I began

school in '48--no it was.'52, I think, when I started, because

I was beginning my fifth year, if I'm not mistaken.
I: You say you initially attended a -room.....

S: A oom wooden framebuilding at thej church. It was called

Antioch School then; it was located at Mount Elam Church. And

of course there was two teachers there, and those two teachers

taught all the Indian students in that area, no matter what

their grade level.

I: Did-Pik County, at this time, have more of these Indian schools ?

S: There was one more that I can think of, and it was called _.e

r/ aCL$4Xs.a *(M ?)4, and it was also a 2-room, wooden building

at a church.

I: Do you recall what church it was located in?

S: Masatonio0- lwalex-CL

I: Masaei-o Church?

S: That's above....that's just above now where South Oaks school

is located now, which was, when I went to school, was Hawkeye.
Now it's South s, since the schools consolidated.

I: How far apart were these two schools?

NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p.7) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.

S: Roughly28 miles, I would say.

I: And this was the total education facilities available to Indian

children at that time?

S: Right.....in the countygat-4=ha-t t-a- Right.

I: And Hawkeye, after it was constructed, approximately how many

teachers were there?

S: We had a staff at the time I was there, i I would say perhaps/


I: Twelve. And what number of these were teaching high school


S: Maybe four, plus the principal. The principal also taught.

I mean he had a dual position.

I: Who was the principal at this time?

S: The first one was....the first principal there was Bew... JImkBw

I: Jim Boe b.

S: I guess his name's Jimmy now, but I've always known him as

Mr. Jim DoIz. and then they had Spurgeon Bullard, whosE deceased

now. And then, if I'm not mistaken now you see I graduated

from school while Mr. Bullard was still there hen I believe

they went to Mr. Hughes OxendineGland Mr. Oxendine's there at

the present time he's still there.

I: Were any of your teachers fromP r county?

S: My teachers?

I: Yes.

S: When I was in school?

NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p. 8) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.

I: Yes.

S: No, not originally. No....we had...At the time I was in high

school we didn't have any Indians from-Pe1@- County that had

ever; graduated from college. You see, there seemed to be a

breakdown between going from high school to college, you know,

as far as entrance exams. We had some living in the county,

one or two, but they had moved in from Robeson.

I: But prior to Hawkeye Schoo an Indian could get a high school

degree at one of these two wooden schools?
4L^K* aeq-"R-
S: Yes, but I really don't know of anyone whe.went that far. I

don't know of anyone. I guess maybe someone did but I don't know

of anyone that stayed in school to get a high school degree

until after Hawkeye was built.

I: So, to your knowledge, no Indiane in k even finished high

school until he finished at Hawkeye?

S: Until, say, uea5 about 1956 was about the first... .or maybe

'54.....was about the first graduating class at Hawkeye. 4a L

maybe later than that I'm not sure.

I: Your high school graduating class was what size?

S: Ten.

I: Ten. Okay, of these ten people how many went on to college?

S: Uh, one.

I: Yourself.

S: Myself, right.

NUMBER: LUM 109 (cont'd p. 9) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.

I: What did the other nine people do. what sort of....

S: Well, at that time, of course, a lot of them was still farming.

A lot of them went back to the farm. Then/they gradually got

married started families. Then they went into....after the

Civil Rights Act of when the textile mills began hiring

Indians--see, at that time an Indian couldn't work in a textile

mill, at Burlington and these other places. They wouldn't hire

an Indian. And after the textile mills in the area began hir.ag

Indians, most of them now are working in textile mills or other

places. You know, we have some, I believe two of my graduating

buddies, I believe, work at the House of g which is a

you know, a turkey......

I: Processing?

S: Processing plant, right. And one,one...he never did go to any

more school other than high school, but now he's a professional

bondsman. He has a trucking company, and he has a lot of real

estate. He has a large grocery store. He probably has assets
dj" dol ~/ /la us.,
altogether of maybe/ 150,s or$200Ogks but he's still a

high school graduate.

I: The textile mills, you say, didn't employ Indians until 1964?

Was that....

S: It was after 1964, yes, I would say the first Indian I've ever

know tot(/ saygo t Burlington Mills, to use that as-an example,

at Raiford, was Donald Ray Oxendine, who has been a neighbor

of mine for, say, 16 years--since they moved to County.

And I guess this was probably in '65 or maybe '66, when he

went to work there.

NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p. 10) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.

I: Was that true also of blacks?

S: Yes, oh yeah. I think Indians, I believe nto your textile

plants before the blacks, or maybe, maybe around the same time.

But it was a discrimination there against all minorities.

I: Now. does employment in the textile mills reflect the racial

proportions in the county as a whole?

S: I would say....I would say now it's pretty well balanced. I

would say that now the Indians and other minorities, of which

there is only one other minority, more or less the blacks.

I think they're getting their percentage of the jobs. And too,

once the Indians became employed in these places, and they found

out what good workers they were, now in a lot of places, they'd

rather have an Indian as an employee than a white, because they

produce more.

I: How do you account for this?

S: Well, this is just from, more or less, talking with some of the

supervisors around the plants and some of the people in the

personnel dept M you know. It's not really .....I'm not
saying that it's one of their policies, you know, to tryreally

hire an Indian over a white or a black, but if they find a good

Indian and the position's available, they'd actually rather have

him in the position.

I: Wh do you....

S: FBa sow this is as a laborer nowo I'm not talking about in a

position, say, in the front office or.any responsible position.

NUMBER: LUM 190A (cont'd p.11) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.

(S:) I'm talking about at the labor level.

I: Why do you think that Indians seem to do better than whites in

these positions?

S: Well, the Indian is work-indoctrinated. I mean, ever since...

well, as long as I can remember and even before.I guess, the

Indians always really had to get out there and, as you may say,

use some elbow grease just to make a just to survive. And

when you're really indoctrinated into that type of evi ent

it just comes natural you just, naturally, if you go on a job

you work.

I: So you're saying that Indians traditionally had a harder life...

S: Right. I wouldn't say they've had any a harder life than the

blacks but most blacks that I know tend to be, you know...there's

a tendency to shy away from, you know, work, if they can. Where

an Indian will meet work head-on, you see. But this is ...I

really don't know why that is, but ita just... 1 seems to be

the way it is.

I: Are there any blacks in! County that have made it, so to speak?

S: Well, we had one that made it in the '50Os as a singer, Clyde

Mc atter....I guess you've heard of him..

S: He's from -k County, originally' .we've had...I can't really

think of one that's made any big waves, but we have some

accountants thereand this type, but there's no lawyers, doctors,

or any of this that I know of inr 1'Pl County that are black.

NUMBER: LUM 190A (cont'd p. 12) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.

(S: ....or Indians, as far as that goes.

I: You say accountants....you mean....

S: I know one that's an accountant at North Carolina Sanitorium

at McCain. There's one in education, a Mr. McAlliste who is

assistant....well they don't have superintendents now I don't

believe....what do they call the guy in charge of the educational
system in he county?

I: I thought the term superintendentt" was still used.

S: Auperintendant?

I: Yes, I believe so.

S: Well, this guy then would be assistant superintendent, then; he's

black--Mr. McAllister. And there's also a McAllister that is

an accountant. he McAllister's seem to be ...they seem to be

a family that's very interested in bettering themselves as far

as education and, well, you know, their position in life. Yeah,

the educational picture for Indians in Poik County has.......
Iiro 2,
I: Has improved considerably these pastyear?

S: Oh yes, oh yes. PLk County now, I think....I don't know if this

is the fourth or fifth year now....I've been in and out of the

county so much in the last ten years, I)pa little lost on some

of the dates and years, but....Pe+k County now...the school

system is 100 percent consolidated completely consolidated.

There's one high school for all the children in the county, no

matter what race; it's located at Ra ford. And then the other

schools out in the county is ...well, I guess the word would be ,.

NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p.13) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear,Jr.

(S: ...well, anyway you have say like three grades that go to one

school, say first, second and third; maybe fourth and fifth

at another school, you see. But it's just...it's completely

consolidated....there's no type of dIscrimination there as far

as a child's race, color, creed, as far as education.

I: How do the Indians feel about consolidation?

S: We were all for it because.....we were 100 percent for it because

when I was in school, okay, the whites would get all of the

books first. They would get new books/and keep themsay, two

or three years. Okay, all of the books we/got were second-hand;

you never did get a new book when I was in school. Okay, then

the books would go from our schoolthen they would send them

to the black schools, you see. So, there you see, the whites

were always three or four years ahead, you see, as far as the

books. And we got no type...we had no type of equipment, as far

as educational aid visual aid or anything else to help teachers

to teach. We didn't have any type of equipment, we didn't even

have a gymnasium, you know, we had no....nothing for physical

education other than a post out in the yard with a goal hanging

on it, you see. This is when I finished high school,a" now

you see, you can go to South-4ak School, which was Hawkeye

when I was in school, okay, there's a complete library, there's

a gymnasium, and you have all these visual aid equipment, this

audio aid equipment, you see. And this is because it's consolidated

and the white children is there, you see. So they're 8aa make

NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p. 14) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.

(S-)make surepnow Hawkeye, now I believe has one grade, or two...

fourth and fifth, or just fifth. Only about one grade there

you see. They got all these facilities for this grade. Now

when I was there, they had twelve grades. You know, we couldn't

get anything better than a post with a goal hanging on itJ .

sitting out in a mudhole, you see.

I: Yes. How have the Indian children did academically in consolidated


S: There's been a great improvement. Now, so far the consolidation

hasn't really produced any college graduates, you see, because

most of the children now that are in college from Polk County,

were say, in the tenth ninth, you know, probably was in high

school when they consolidated, or fixing to go to high school sy

getting ready to go, or something. But now there's....I know

of two that's just completing college at Pembroke. There's a

girl that's going to, I think, medical school to be a gynecologist,

you know o some type of....

I: Gynecologist?

S: Right, something to do with....

I: Women's disorders...

S: Right. That's Peter Row's daughter. I don't know if you know

him. he's a school teacher. He's in LevCounty.

I: His daughter is finishing.....

S: Well, she's not finishing yetbut she's in school and I think

she's wanting to major in gynecology or something like this.

NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p. 15 TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.

(S:)Now Louis Oxendine, he has a daughterI I think ehltr graduates

in January of this year s.ki-s coming year. A+-s son that's

in about the third year or so, or he may be an uprising senior, /

.Pnor this coming year, I'm not sure. Okay, we've had three or four

that's finished at the technical institute--San Hill's Technical

Institute at Southern Pines. And I think now with this

consolidation and the children really getting what they deserve

from their public schools, I think we're going to have, say,
'4% e
within the next ten years, a lot of Indian children from-Po4k-

County that's going to go to college and finish college, maybe

probably/eveng farther than that. Maybe into specialized

fields. I think E -consolidation s the best thing that's

ever happened to Indians in -P& e County, because now when the

white kids gets it, the Indian 'sitting in the next chair can

get it if he wants it; if he doesn't get it he can only blame

himself.. or perhaps apparentlyl may need some counseling on

keeping him in school, you know. But it's there.

I: What about teacher employment in consolidated schools. Do the

Indians and blacks get theirshare of the jobs?

S: Oh yeah. There's a lot of Indians in se-consolidated school s 5

in-PouCounty, but you see, the problem is there's still teachers

from out of the county. We only have now, the only teachers O03o

we have from PBe44kCounty in our school system is one--that's

Lenford Rogers. He finished college two year before I did....

NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p. 16) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.

(S:)or three, no four years. He graduated the year I started, I

think. But, you see, we have others in Poe-kCounty, you see,

but they've moved in from Robeson. We have a Robert Taylor...

he moved from Robeson. Wenford Rogers' wife, Betty Lou Rogers,

she was from Robeson, but she finished high school and college
after they got married. she's teaching in the school..teaching

English. Henry s wife oyce Chavis he's from Robeson,

you seerat jshe's living in the county now. And we have maybe

twelve that are commuting from Robeson every day, teaching in

the school system, you see. So we still only have one that's

originally from B County/ in the system sp this why I hope

in the next ten years that we'll get more...more Indian children

from P-. County to finish school/and maybe be a teacher, if

nothing else, to keep some of this money in the county, you seeD

4tht's going away from the county, you see =this is a loss to

the county. And you p e- twelve salaries and one of them

is a principal's salary, Mr. Hughes Oxendine_.you &eL ha

twelve salaries) that adds up in one month--that's a lot of money.

Maybe more...now I'm just roughly saying twelve, it may be a

little less, it may be more, I'm not completely sure.

I: That's ove 100,000 that you-feel is going out of the...

S: ...out of the county, right, which, to me, if there's any way

possible--I'm not saying everyone from Robeson, you know, shouldn't

` be there. I'm glad they're there because they're Indians and

NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p. 17) TYPIST:M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.

(S:)we don't have Indians to put there from Pei4. Well, I'm glad

that Indians have the position from Robeson, you see. I'd

rather for them to have it, then to see a white have the position
^kk a kMni*d
from Pot- County. ISee what I mean?

I: Yes.

S: But what I'm saying....I just hope we get more Indians from

-P1ak County to finish college and get some of these positions,

tood yu peee

I: Mr. Rogers, "you mentioned. Wenford Rogersrwhat degree does

he have?

S: Elementary. [he's assistant principal at South Hope, you know,

and they teach/ I believe it's the fifth grade or something- There's
only one or two grades there--fifth and sixth or fourth and

fifth, or something.

I: And he attempted to secure a Masters?

S: No, no. When he got out of college....Wenford is very easy man
I 5,ee I
to satisfye-he's not very ambitious, you see. He.... now his

wife, Betty Lou, is a very ambitious person. She started back

to school after having two children, and the children was more

or less old enough to go to school. She completed the tenth

through: the twelfth, and completed college, and now she may

return and get a Master's degree, you see. She teaches English

at the high school, Pelk- County high school. But Wenford, no...

I don't think he'll ever return for a Master's, because he's

taught now, this is his fourteenth year--this session

NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p.18) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.

(S:) in September, will be the fourteenth year.

I* Where do the Indian people in Pe-k County shop?

S: Well, there's quite a few shops in Ra ford, but I think there's

more in Red Springs. And a few goes to Bedville, you know to

Treasure City, Mammoth Mark, and a few goes down to Lumberton,

to your Mammoth Mar4 and your (Nedquills?), and you know, the

larger discount stores. But most of the money for shopping, I

would say it's kind of split between Rai ford, which is in .e44p-0o

County, and Red Springs, which is in Robeson.

I: Are there any significant Indian greas that these people


S: No, other than the Indian package stores for beer and wine".they

patronize that rather often. But really, you see, since Robeson

is a dry county, Pe4k county is completely wet, other than li quor

over a bar, you know, liquor by the drink. We have the package

brown-bag liquor. But I'd say your Indian package stores is

the most patronized business that we have in Pe-- County because

really it's the only significant Indian business that we do have,

other than James Albert Hunt's say, trucking company which

I think he has about five or six trucks in his company. But he

works...he always works out of the county, you see. He works

with the state's contractors, you see. He's errenty- a sub-

sub contractor for hauling asphalt, gravel, and all this, you

see. So rte...he really don't have a business that patronizes

the Indians.

I: How many package stores are there?

NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p. 19) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.

(S:'Let's see, there's...you mean as far as Indians?

I: Yes.

S: One, two,...I believe .thee -si-h e-eunty, It's two or three,

but they're centrally located to...well, they're very well

located and they're very close to Robeson County line--two of

them. And one of them is the first stop in the county. It's

the nearest one, you know, to the Robeson county line. So I

guess they probably do...I believe he said...I believe Joel Dew, Jr.

said their gross last year was right at a quarter of a million--'


I: Wow, that's quite a bit of...

S: That's a lot of beer and wine...

I: a lot of beer and wine, right.

"S: Plus, that's a lot of ...a lot of littering too, because most

of the people that gets this beer and wine, you know, it just

goes down the road and there's a bottle on the side of the road.
ut-s -
Which it hasn't been too bad in Polk County since we got a

sanitation system that we have now, you see. We have....the county

completely supports our sanitation systems and every five miles

in the county there's a Dempsey Dumpster, you know, eor you -fe&A--

dump your litter, and then the county moves it to land fill

and dumps it, and there's no charge to the citizens of the

county, you see. It comes out of our tax money that we pay ir

to the county. This has helped relieve the litter problem e4f-\

the county, as far as wine bottles and beer cans and this type

NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p.20)c TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.

(S:)of thing.

I: You mentioned the Dew Package Store4 $250,000 gross. Did

this 4)ew also describe his clientele?

S: He said that 90 percent of his business is Robeson county residents,

so I guess in that way we compensated a little bit for our
teaching orsje-, I guess, you know we compensated somewhat there,
I guess, from om- teaching salaries going into Robeson, so we

send the beer and wine to Robeso to make up the difference.

I: Did he give any sort of racial breakdown on his customers?

S: I think, probably...well, from talking with him, I would say

that over half is Indians( and quite a few of that percentage

are bootleggers, you know, they're Robeson County bootleggers.

You have that problem anywhere Tyou have a dry county, you know,

you've- ge the bootlegger problem....which that's...that's the

authorities' business. we're not interested in that.

I: How would you..or could you describe the average Indian'q-"

Perk County Indian's drinking habit?

S: We really don't have too much of a problem in -r+k County with

drinking problems. Now we had quite a few problems when we

were a dry county, but since we've went to the beer and the wine,

I mean, people are still drinking but they're more conservative.

They may....they may, over a period of time, consume more than

they consumed when we were a dry county but, you see, now they

don't have to go out there and hide around to buy, and then

sneak off somewhere, you see, and try to drink it all at one time.

NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p.21 TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.

(S:)Now they can just go get it and bring it home, and just sit

back and relax (o they may consume more over a period of time,

but they don't consume as much at one time. ie don't have as

many traffic violations, and as many people getting in wrecks,

and as many people getting killed, you know, from being.....

attributed to alcohol, as before. You just don't see anyone

really on the road now, say in Te4k County, that's drunk.

You know, unless he's coming through from Robeson, teile)-.

I: Did....are the bootleggers completely eliminated from ee4e+klA4

county now?

S: no, no, but they're not completely eliminated. Actually, I

know three or four.

' -S4EB --2! Dexter Brooks interviewing w4i--Plummer Locklear.

Go ahead, please.

S: CI#l were we?

I: Let's see...you were...

S: Oh, we were talking about bootleggers in Polk. No, it hasn't

eliminated the problem completely, which now it's no problem,

you see. I know of, say, four bootleggers in my general area

where I live. Okay, I mean, it's such a small problem now,

tLhe nii a ..the authorities know that there's bootleggers,

but there's really no problem there they just you know,

they do nothing about it because they're really not selling

that much. They don't even....they wouldn't sell enough in a

week's time to pay their light bill, hardly, you see. Because

a person may come by, well, he m4gh-gcome by and get a beer, but

you know, it's really not a booming business l4ke it was, you

NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p.22) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.
INTERVIEWER: Dexter Brooks

(S:)see. A person may go by and pay 50 cents for a short beer at

a bootleggers)say, in -e-91 County where he can go to the corner

store and get it for 35p but he may go there just because he

may want to sit down, you know, and relax and talk awhile. It's

not that he's going there, you know, to get drunk and all this,

because he don't haveto do that anyore.

I: So these bootleggers, may serve some social....

S- Right. It's become in-?e+k County, more or less, just a social

type business. It's really not, as far as helping the bootleggers'

economy, and all this-yhis income-Qit really don't do much for it.

I: Befor to sell a beer was legal, were there many more of these


S: Oh yes, And they were getting rich.

I: Right.

S: Bb#, you see2 yDring those times, say even before we got the

ABC store, which we've ha4 for quite a few years...Okay, you

had your bootleggers, okay, se4 these bootleggers are making

what we call white\ightning, 5 you know, rot-gut.

Okay, there was also that problem, you see then, because the

bootleggers was selling the public all this poison. You know,

people dying from it) going to the hospital from it, and,

you know, going a,4 getting completely drunk on it,, going crazy1..

killing each other. The ABC store, you see, it helped eliminate

that problem, you see, because now there's really no booming

business in Pet4-County as far as white liquor. A person may

LUM 109A (p.23) TYPIST: M. Frese

(S:)go out and buy him a pint or a quart of white liquor, just to

sit in his house and look at it, you know, and say "man, you

ever seen any white liquor?", you know. It's become a novelty

type thing now, even the white liquor. I can remember, when I

was a child, they found up above Ra ford there, they found a

liquor still that was turning out 100,000 gallons per week.

I: But is all this liquor....

S: But see, all this type of thing's been eliminated now. Can you

imagine transfer trucks backing into a liquor still, taking it

out like that?

I: It's a lot of poison...

S: Right. Now a person might have him a little liquor still down

there, and might make, say 10 gallons, you know. It's just...

I:: Li quor is still being made in alk County?

S: It's still being made everywhere, but as I say, it's really not

a profit-making thing anymore, you know. It's really...I'll tell

you something that's becoming a big fad now, even over the white

liquor--the white liquor went out so much--now homemade wine is

really becoming an *in thing. I mean, everybody now wants to

get him a wooden barrel, and all this other things, and get him

some grape-*sort of grape concentrate and all this, and make

homemade wine. You see, I'm even interested in that. I haven't

made any yet, but I want to get me a winemakerAkit, you know,

because it's just the in thing now to have, instead of wine from

the beer store, to have your own little....your own little wine
factory at house ou see. And the deal government will
factory at-i~e house, you see. And the Aederal government will

LUM 109A ( p.24) TYPIST: M.FRESE

(S:)you to make, per year, I jflieve it's--I don't want to be

wrong now--what is it, twelve hundred gallons a year?

I: 12t gallons? Wow.

S: I may be mistaken now, but I know it's....I know it's so high

that a person here that would have him a little 20 gallon barrel

don't have to worry about it, see, as far as wine. There's a

great amount that you make and have in your home.

I: Do certain people try to sell this wine?

S: No. I really don't know of anybody that is selling any wine,

no. I know of a few, you know, thatmae have it in their home,

and they'll offer it to you in a social drink, you know, but I

don't know of anyone that's trying to really sell any wine. I'm

speaking now of Pufa County. Now in Robeson, I know some that

does sell homemade wine, and what they call home brew also,

which is somefype of batches off of white lightning, I think6>_,

call it home brew. I really don't know the process of that.

I: Do a lot of people in -Plk County raise grapes?

S: No, no, not really. I had an uncle Claude E. Dew, that had a

vine vineyard but then he and his wife separatedI he married

again, and I think's living in Florida. So, his vineyard just

completely ...but he sold grapes, and sold a lot of grapes.4V4Fb Y-'A

he had about, I would say, a good acre or more of vineyards,

you know, had the post and wires run, and the vines running on

the wires,-Tt was really beautiful.

I: What is your occupation, Mr. Locklear?


S: Well, at the present time, and for the last two years, I've

been a social worker with the Pf9l County Department of Social


I: How did you get into this type work?

S: Well, after the military in '68, I became a social worker in

Baltimore, Maryland, but I didn't like the hassle of the city

life, you know. I couldn't drive my car to work I had to catch

a bus, okay, that's an hour, say to the office, on the bus. Have

to go out to a client's house during the day, you got to take

the bus, and transfer from bus to bus, and back to the office-9-

the same. Then/an hour back home on the bus. So, in other

words, the job there was a 10-hour bus ride, you know, and I

couldn't stand thatpso then I went back in music for two years,

worked the East coast as a musician. So then I got married--got

out of that--which is understandable. Then I went to New York,

and worked with Thoroughbred Racing Association up there. Then

I came back home to get my Master's Degree in Art Education.

Okay, so during the time beforefI went to school. one of the

social workers quit in the county--you know, she was going to

have a baby or something, so went home to be a housewife--so I

was contacted by thenjetnekt at the high school, Mr. Gerald

Maynor, that time, and he explained that Miss Mabel McDonald,

who's the director....they had never had an Indian, you see,

in the Department of Social Services. Okay, well, he told her

thatShe wanted to hire an Indian social worker if there was one


(S:'that was qualified, and she would love to have one from Pltk t No

County, if one was qualified, you see. Even she herself's

from Robeson, you see...she's from out of the county, taking

about $14,000 a year, you see. Okay, so I knew, you know,

why they wanted me--why they wanted an Indian in a department.

You know, it's not for the love of the Indians; it was to

balance off that 10 percent ratio, you see, because they're

using a lot of Federal money, and they have to have so many minorities,

you see. And if you've got black and Indianj-you know, you also

want an Indian in there; they had three or four blacks, you see,

already. So that's how Ilwent and took the merit exam and at

the time, the lady that was there, you see....they only had

funds in for an eligibility specialist, which was her position.

Okay, so I went in in September, so they asked me if I would

work, due to the funds--the way the budget was set up--until the

next July 1, as an el igibility specialist. Well, I said I

don't know, you see, because of the money,-the money was only

about 6400--that was the salary. Well, but I said I'd have

to have a good raise July 1, or I'll go other places. So then

July 1, I went from about 16400 up to 7500. I got you know,

about an $1100 or $1200 raise there. And then this past

January they took me up to 800 and then this past July of this

month--you know, a few days ago, say a week ago--I went to
< ^ 9-
roughly 8,300. So in a year's time-in 12 months--I've had a

$2000 raise--I went from roughly 63 to about 83 or 84. So,


(S:)they've done what they said they would doognd I've went from
el igibility specialist, and now I'm a social worker 1, and my

position is supervisor over __ __ services for the

county. And that covers all the clients from 18 years old up,

you know-.above 65.

I: What are some of the major social problems as you see them,

in P County?

S: I think the major social problem is illiteracy. I think it all

falls back to.....I think it all falls back to our formal

education system, back when everything was segregated, a"4 of

course, people just didn't get- they wasn't interested--and

now the tax payer is paying for that, you see. We've having

to pay for that with money for these people, as-far-as- for

their medical assistance. I think it all falls back to just

illiteracy. The people just don't have the education to get

out there and really get a job to support their self. And by

not having that education to make the money to support their

self, okay, their health is deF etAd, you see. There's been

that malnutrition there, you see...they've not had the right

type of foods over the years, say, according to the person's

age...over the last 20 years, or 40 years, or 65 years, or 70

years. Their health is dAeri4eaed-because of their living, and

be-eaue e-t r. nrWe not capable of making a standard income

to live. And it's just causing the tax payer and everybody else,

you see,.....now the country's paying for the wrong which they

caused to start with, you see. ft was caused by, you know, our

way of government and our prejudice against each other and all

LUM 109A (p.28) TYPIST: M. FRESE

(S:)this. So, I think if you sow the seed, y-__ 4 ,MW&to reap

them. So, it's their duty now--w3L, I should say our duty-1-2

to take care of these people.

I: What is the racial composition of most of Social Services'


S: Well, now, over the complete United States, most people will

say the largest number on Social Services is blacks, but this

is not true. The largest percentage over the United States is

white. Simply because, you know, the majority of the population
4tk-e AMede
is white, you see. But in e14k County, the black....in Polk

County, the blacks is the largest percentage on Social Services:,

as the same in Robeson, you know, and all the surrounding

counties. Then,....then, I guess, whites are next. We have

less, I believe, we have less Indians....a smaller amount of

Indians on Social Services in -elk County than any other race.

Even though I know there's Indians out there that need it as

bad or more than, say the white or black, a lot of the Indians

are too proud to come up and ask for Social Services. And this

is bad in a way. If a person needs something, he shouldn't be

too proud to ask for it, you know. And then in another way

it's good that this person will go out there and, even though

he's struggling, he'll just keep, you know, keep going instead

of just doing the way a lot of people does. You see/a lot of

people are on Social Services because they're just too lazy to

work. They wouldn't have a job if you'd bring it to their bed.


I: Do you think the Indian attitude might have something to do with,

maybe, the manner in which your services were dispensed in prior

years--the attitudes of the white personnel at that time?

S: YeahE I would say the Indians' attitude has caused him to lose

out on a lot of services that he could have gotten and a lot of

services that he needed. But he...he'll just say Zell, that's

some white man's something, so I don't want anything to do with

it, you see, I mean. This barrier's gradually breaking down,

but years ago it was really a hard barrier to even crack because

the Indian....you know, and I can see why--if you're out there

uneducated, and you've always got a raw deal from the white man,

then you really try to completely stay away from him as much

as possible, even as far as...back then it was welfare...even

as far as his welfare programs, you see. Because you figure,

okay, in order to, say, get a check up until April 16 of this

year....in order to get a check from Social Services you had

to sign a property lien. Whether you owned property or not,

it said "property that I own, or may get in the future," you

see. And you could not until April 16, get a welfare check

or which we call Social Services now, without signing that

property lien. And that meant the money you got from us....

if your children or you didn't pay it back before your death

or after your death, the county got your property when it was

sold--they got that amount of money out that they had given

you, whether it was 50....if it was $50, when your children

LUM 109A (p. 30) TYPIST: M.FRESE

(S:'ever sold your property--the county got them $50. If you

had been on it twenty years and, say received $15,000)when

your property was sold, if there were $15,000 there, the

county got that; if it was less, the county got it all.

I: Was this owin. lien law especially hard on the Indians?

S: No, seebecause there's really not...not too many Indians that's

receiving checks, and the ones that are receiving checks--most

of them don't own any property to start with. So, they would

gladly sign it--'yeah, I'll sign it'--you know--'it don't mean

nothing to merit's a piece of paper^ See because, there's

not too many of them that own property. I would say it affects...

I think it affected the blacks more than the Indians, and

definitely affected the white more than the Indians, because

more of them that was on welfare owned some property--maybe a

house and a lot, you see, and all this. Where most of the

Indians on welfarehliving out there in somewhat of\tenant house,

youiee-. Don't even own the chair he's in, a lot of times.

I: In dispensing their services, how would ;you describe the courtesy

of the staff of Social Services?

S: Well, I....since I've been there for two years, I'll have to say

I've been well pleased with the staff there, from the director

on down. I haven't seen any type of prejudice of any of the

workers, the black or the white. And I've tried not to show

any myself, you see, because I'm not the type of guy that really

has any prejudice, you know, as far as a man's color. I have

LUM 109A (p. 31) TYPIST: M.FRESE

(S:)some prejudice and some reservations and all this about, you

know, other things but not a man's color. But I haven't seen

any whites discriminated against, I haven't seen any blacks

d scriminated against, and I definitely seen any Indians

discriminated against because that's the first thing I've

looked for. So, as far as the staff there, I can't really say

that our services have went more to one race than to another

one, because our services are there for anybody that comes in7

and is l6ligible to get them, no matter what his race, color, 6'

creed. I haven't seen any of that. Now, you get hassled more

by the blacks you get hassled more, especially out in the

field, when I was doing a lot of field work, you see. Now I

crety- have quite a few employees under me, so I'm more
in the office, you know, than out -ad jt. Because I have to

make sure that they're out there doing it. But when yodre

out in the field, you get hassled more by the blacks than you

do any other race. And when I mean "hassled" I mean they're

always complaining about, you know, the department has pet

peeves, and they know thfeyknow they should be getting this and

they know they should be getting that. But....and I always try

to sit down with them and explain to them exactly how the laws

and procedures of that situation works, you see. Because,

they're usually talking from another case over there. 'Well, here's

my neighbor over here, she's shacking with so-and-so, and she's

getting a check, and I'm sitting over here--just me and my


(S-)children, and I'm not getting what she's getting,'you know....

"not this and that....she shouldn't be getting it because she's

shacking with a man.' We don't care who they're shacking with.

You know, our manual says as long as it's accepted by the

community....you can be common law all you want to, you see.

A man's covered under the Constitution to live where he wants

to live and with who he wants to live, and how long. You see

a lot of people used to think if they were on the welfare we

could go in, because they were shacking or what you call 'holding

out to the public' that we could cut off their checks, but

we couldn't do that, you see?

I: Yesq Mr. Locklear, are you registered to vote?

S: Oh yes. Yeah, I'm precinct chairman Democratic precinct

chairman in my township Antioch township.

I: You are a registered Democrat?

S: Right.

I: Why?

S: Well, I'm a registered Democrat because I've always....I've
always thought-now I'm not a political science major or anything,

but I'm just going to give you my personal views 7 ve-ni'

from what I've seen of the political process over the past

few years, you know, that I've really been involved, that the

Democrats just seem to let the funds flow more loosely towards

your lower income people, which is, you know, my interest

because I am, you know, .seantly-in between there somewhere.

And the Republicans seem to try to start drying up all these

funds, you see, from a certain project to the poverty-striken


(S:)and other people, you know, even on job levels and everything

else ,different positions. They seem to start drying up this

and 4-4thnk that's taking away from the public a few of their
dues because I think...I think in order for everybody to survive

I think you got to have these programs. You know, such as

the funds now that he's holding back from OEO and all these

other programs, you know. He's not wanting to really turn

them loose, you know, which Congress is trying to, you know,

'say you'll turn them loose or we'll cut off your money to

Cambodia and all these other places, you see. So, I think

the Democrats, I think, are more lenient in that way as far

as.....as far as, say, the average man.

I: I see.

S: Well, I'll put it this way....to me, you've got to be financially

stable or independent or rich to really follow the Republican

party, you know, or you're going to lose out down the line. I

mean, that's just the way I see it.

I: How old were you when you registered to vote?

S: 21, I think it was., yes.

I: So you registered immediately, as soon as you were el igible to?

S: Right, my father....yew see, that's one of the things about

my father....he was always interested so the first thing he does

is take me down or asks me to go down and register to vote, you

see....because he was kind of a heavy political man in the county.

My father's always been the type that loves those smoke-filled

rooms. I've been....well, I'll be 31 in September so I've been


(S:)registered about 10 years) 'Co[5L,

I: You say your father has always been active politically. What

did this consist of?

S: Well, about everything in the county/from people running for

judge to people running, say, on your education boards, an4,

well anything within the county, he's as w ho' always tried

to do what he could for the interests of the Indians, you know.

He's always tried to help.

I: Let's see, Mr. Locklear, you're discussing your father's political

activities.. did he ever, on election day, haul people to vote?

S: Oh yeah. He always....he also....he would haul people to register,

he would haul people to vote, he would work for who he thought

was the best man. I mean, he would go out and talk to people

about ....fvtalking--I say'people, I mean the Indian population

in the county. He would talk with them on who he thought would

be the best man for the position in the county, whether it be

sheriff/or whether it be dog-catcher, you know. And who he

thought would do more for the Indian and help the Indian more,

you know. He would always do this too. And he was...he was

one of the supposed-to-be-upstanding citizens in the county,

you know. Even among the whites and the blacks, you know. He

was well known and well liked, and people would listen, you know.

I: So if I were a candidate running for office, your father would

be one man whose support I would...

S: He would've been, I would say) back then. Of course now he's

completely out of politics-has been for I would say eight years,

since him and my mother separated and divorced. But before then


(S:)he would have been maybe about the first Indian--him and my

grandfather, &A A>I --he was the first Indian as far

as politics...he was the first Indian that any candidate would

contact, whether they were running in Polk County, whether I

mean for a position in-a.k County, or whether they was running

for a position at the state office, where PWk County was

concerned. 1-randather's ame was the first to be contacted

and I would say my father would probably be the second.

I: You say your father helped to get people registered. Were any

of the registrars Indian?

S: Oh no. We've never had an Indian registrar. I'm the first

Democratic precinct chairman Indiaq that I know of we've ever


I: I see. Were the white registrars cooperative when it came to

being able to register?

S: No, not....now see, I was kind of young back then., I really don't

know how they were, say, in my father's era or his day. But

even now they're.not cooperative. I mean even now, even far as
back as last year we had to write letter...or the president

of the Jaycees, Robert Taylor, wrote a letter to the State

Department of Election Board...

I: State Board of Elections?

S: Right. He wrote a letter there just in order for us to get the

books open or brought to where we wanted them brought on a certain

day to register people.


I: Was this letter successful?

S: Oh yes. This letter got immediate action. I mean, we got

a call from the guy who said 'you didn't have to do all that,

you could've just came up and' you know...the same old sob

story. But we got some action and we registered that day.

We registered 106, and I think about 97 of those were Democrats.

I: I see. Are you aware that the County Board of Elections appoints

the registrar?

S: No, not really. You see, I really haven't. iirall .es. '

had the time with my other duties to really get down and take

a manual and read, or go ask them the procedures, you see. I've

been so tied with other committees--you see I've been on about

five other committees in the county this past year--so I really

haven't had the time with my job/and my family and other things,

and with my father's illness for the past six months or so-ffive

months-gto really get down to the process and procedures of every-

thing, you see.

I: Yes. Peik County Board of Elections apparently is all white?

S: Right.

I: Two of these people come from the party of the governor, and one

comes from the opposite party, so now in the coming year you'll

have two Republicans and one Democrat. Perhaps you should find

you a....

S: Democrat ......

I: .....an Indian Republican to be appointed.


S: Well, as a Democrat and as a precinct chairman for the Democratic

party, I really couldn't personally....

I: not ....

S: Right....do too much of finding Republican' you know. We may

end up with .....you know, they say for every "Watergate" there's

got to be a "Millhouse", so we may have a "Millhouse" in Polk

County if I do that. I'd rather try to find a Democrat to put

on the election board, you know, thinking in terms of '76 when

the Democrats, you know, is returning to all these positions

from the top echelons down. Now I think that would be more

feasible than probably....and wouldn't be as temporary as putting

a Republican in there, you see.

I: Of course, one third of all the election board have to be....

there has to be both political parties represented on the election

board. Have any Indian candidates ran for office in Pe+k County?

S: Ahey have in the past. Now this last year, I can't really think

of any Indian that came out for any position, even on the school

board or anything else. I can't think of one that came out.

I: Did any blacks run?

S: Oh, let me think. No, other than....not from oe4k County that

I can think of. There may have been one. I can't really

remember3but I believe there was one that ran for Board of

Education or something like this, but I'm not even sure about

that. But eftk County, of course, supported the black and Indian

candidates that ran for state positions.


I: Are you saying that B4k County supported Reverend Joey


S: Joey Johnson, right. We were definitely...we even supported

him the other time....I think this was his second round. He

was supported in Rel County the first time, this time, a4 gf

course, we were overjoyed when Henry Ward took Mr. White's

place after his death. Of course, we supported Mr. White

because he was well liked )seemed to be a good man, you know,

to be white&b ut of course, we were overjoyed te-he- van Indian

get the seat /over say another white getting the seat. And

hopefully, if he runs again, we will definitely support Henry

Ward Oxendine. And we're hoping that more Indians come out

for more positions-Tcounty-wide and state-wide-the next time


I: What are some of the offices you would like to see an Indian ig

in -Pek County?

S: I would like to see an Indian try for the Sheriff Department.

You know, as the sheriff not a deputy. The problem there is

someone who would be qualified. I would love to see--and we plan

to try to get--a county commissioner, which we've never had an

Indian commissioner.

I: Do you have any black commissioners?

S: Oh yes. We have. -well, the one we've been thinking of, in

his district, is James Albert Hunt...hopefully we'll get him to

run and perhaps something .. another guy's district, hopefully

maybe Proctor Locklear, who is a school teacher at the high

school....maybe he would... .now I don't know/by him being a


(S:)school teacher if this would have any affect, but I don't

think so-not as county commissioner, because I know one

from Red Springs that's a counselor at the high school--

Bobby Locklear. And I understand that my name is in the

pot for the directorship of Social Services when the director

retires in January, but of course I'll be resignd-+n August 31,

so I guess that position will probably go to a white, in


I: You mentioned the Sheriff's department. Does the Sheriff's

department employs any Indian deputies?

S: Not at the present time. We had one there, Robert Locklear,

but there was a conflict in his social life and his professional

life so he was.....it was highly suggested that he resign and-

ye haven't had....they had four applications on the file at that

time, they said, from the Indians but....and they've hired quite

a few deputies since that time, but so far there hasn't been

an Indian hired up to this point. But I really don't think that

a qualified person has really applied for the job, as far as

an Indianbecause they've always ended up with some type of

police record or something else.

I: You say the Sheriff's department can't find a qualified Indian?

S: Well, the problem is they can find them, but with the salary

they pay, the- people L-tae- the Indians that they find that are

qualified don't want....they can make more money out there say,

in a textile mill and working less hours. So they really don't

want to put up with the hassle of the Sheriff's department for


(S:)the amount of money that they're paid.

I: How are they able to find whites who are willing to put up

with the hassle?

S: Well, most of the ones they have are kind e-4.ind- of older

men, say. They're not 30 year olds. Most of the ones that

they're finding say, are in their late 40 s or in their 50 s.

And of course they say you have to be a high school graduate,

but I think that most of the one's they're getting are, say,probably

eighthgrade graduates. I don't think that, really, what they're

getting....I don't that they're getting too many high school

graduates, you know.

I: A# you a cook, Mr. Locklear?

S- Pardon?

I: Do you cook?

S: Oh yeah, I do a little bit of cooking...not very much, but I
fouL kvtvP
can......I do a lot of cooking out steaks and this type of

stuff, you know, on the grill. I can cook breakfast.

I: Do you like to cook?

S: No, not really.

I: Your wife, then, does all the cooking?

S: Yeah. She does most of the cooking .my wife or my mother.

My mother lives with us and about the only time that I'll really

do any cooking is maybe, as I say, on the grill out in the

yard. I don't mind that because I think I can cook my steak

the way I want it better than, you know, my wife or my mother.


I: You're married. ._you have how many children?
S: I have two children at home. One is three. aladene will be

three this month and the baby will be one this month.

I: Do you have any plans for having any more children?

S: After I get out of school in the next three years---you know

I'm returning to school in September---and the two children

at home get into school we plan then to......you see, both of

our children now are girls, so after, say, the baby is six years

old and enters school, we plan maybe by that time to try for a


I: Approximately how many children would you like to eventually


S: Well, I was hoping not to have but two-if I had a boy and a

girl-but now I guHe ....!I guess now we're going to at least

have threep,nd whether that's a boy or girl, _that's going to

be. f it's another girl, we'll only have three. If it's a

boy, we'll only have three--that's our plan. I think two children

is enough for any married couple, and three is definitely enough.

I don't think anyone should have over three, at the most.

I: Why is that?

S: Well, because of, I would say mainly, the living expenses nowadays.

I mean, I'm not too hip on this thing they have, you know, 'due

to the space of the world and due to the air and due to the this

and the that'. You know,'you shouldn't have a large family

because, you know, because if everybody has a large family there's

not going to be room and there's not going to this', you know.


(S:)This may be true, but who cares, you know. But I would say

you shouldn't have over twor and three at the most because of

living expenses expensegof raising children now, you see.

Back when people had, say, large families years ago, well these

people were working on farms, you see. And they didn't have to....

they didn't have to go out and buy everything at the grocery

store, you see. But nowadays, every what you get to eat or

anything else,it's got to be bought. And a person just can't

afford to feed six or eight children and be working a job, whether

it's a professional job or a labor-type job.

I: Then, what you're saying, really, is that you think a family

should gear the number of children they have to the amount of

money or salary ?

S: Right, right. Because I think you should only have as many

children as,..that you think that you'll be able to send, say,

through college/and get that child/not everything that it wants

but everything that it needs in the way of medical, clothing a

and, as I say, education and everything else, you see. And I

know that me and my wife will never be able to supportcompletelyy

over three children.

THE END!!!!!!

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