Citation
Interview with Phyllis Lowry, April 17, 1973

Material Information

Title:
Interview with Phyllis Lowry, April 17, 1973
Creator:
Lowry, Phyllis ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:
Language:
English

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Florida History ( local )
Lumbee Oral History Collection ( local )
Spatial Coverage:
Lumbee County (Fla.)

Notes

Funding:
This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

Record Information

Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management:
Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/.
Resource Identifier:
LUM 104A ( SPOHP IDENTIFIER )

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Full Text





LUM 104A

Mrs. Phyllis Low"ry (L)
Pembroke State University
April 17, 1973
Interviewer: Marilyn Taylor (I)

Typed by: Paula Whidden



I: My name is Marilyn Taylor. I am recording for the Doris Duke Foundation under

the auspices of the University of Florida. Today is April 17, 1973. I am on

the Pembroke State University campus in the Human Services Media, and I have

with me the secretary of this center, and she has agreed to give us an inter-

view, of which we are most grateful. Would you tell us your name, your full

name, and your address?

L: Mrs. Phyllis M. Lowry, Route 1, Box 137-.1 Pembroke.

I: Then you are married?

L: Yes ma'am.

I: And what is your husband's name?

L: Herbert Bradley Lowry.

I: And what does he do?

L: He's a junior engineer at Southport.

I: Uh, Southport, that's in, uh....that's down near the coast, right?

L: Yes ma'am.

I: Uh, do you two get to see each other often?

L: Yes ma'am, he comes home every night.

I: Every night, uh, then he has to commute quite a ways, doesn't he?

L: Right.

I: Will you tell us something about your work here--what the Human Service

Center is all about, what it strives to do, and so on?

L: Well, I've only been working here about two weeks now, and so.... There's








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LUM 104A


about, there's about t53 oi 42. different areas they work in...

I: Could you name some of those?

L: There's the Source Project Find, and I (Zforget4 some of the other ones.

And there's one that's started a center up here at the Methodist Church



I: It's the local Methodist Church here ..i-;'- ?

L: Um-hmm, yes ma'am. It's the one for adults, for the, uh, what do you call it?

I: Well, maybe we'll come back to that, ^' J,.' .

L: And, they have students that work in the office. They come in different

days of the week and have to put in so many hours and they e,.) L f C

4[ tj. They're putting together a new book now, a directory for the

businesses, the meetings, the different meetings of clubs that are here in

Robeson County. They work with Robeson County, mainly.

I: Um-hmm. And Mr. Watkins, uh, Wadkins...

L: Watkins.

I: Would you spell that for us?

L: W-a-t-k-i-n-s.

I: We hope to interview him, but he is the head of this project. Is this pro-

ject being funded by any particular, uh, agency,&government, or anything like

that?

L: I'm not sure.

I: You don't know whether...in other words, your salary, you don't know if it

comes from the state, or .....

L: My salary comes from LRDA.

I: LRDA.

L: Yes ma'am.







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LUM 104A


I: This is, um, the Lumbee...

L: Regional Development Association.

I: Thank you. And which is to help Indians that are deprived at this point?

L: Well, yes, and...

I: More or less J.,' thatAin need?

L: Right. It's mainly for the kids that's family's not too well off, and they're

going to school, and (thus so?) to help them so it's not too much of a burden

on their parents.

I: Um-hnm. Uh, you mentioned you were married, do you have children?

L: No, ma'am.

I: Uh, who was your mother and father?

L: Mr. and Mrs. Edwin Clark.

I: Uh, are they...do they live here?

L: They...my mother lives in Pembroke. My father lives in Saddletree.

I: In Saddletree.

L: Yes ma'am.

I: Um, and you've lived here how long?

L: About three year.

I: Uh, did you.... Where did you go to school, grammar school and high school

and so on?

L: I went to several schools--you don't want me to name all of them, do you?

I: Yes, do, because....

L: First, I went in the first grade at Saddletree, then we went to Union

Chapel. From the second to the fifth grade, I went to Piney Grove, and...

I: And that's about how far from here? You're talking in the general area, are

you not?









LUM 104A


L: Yes, that's in, um, that's in...Piney Grove's in (Shannon, Lumbee, too?).

And Magnolia, in Magnolia I went to school. Third grade,...

I: And that's about ten or twenty miles from here, isn't it?

L: Yes, somewhere around there. In third grade, I was in Fairmont.

I: Um-hmm. And that's about another twenty out from this area?

L: Right. And then I went to school in Atlanta for three year.

I: Is that Atlanta, Georgia?

L: Atlanta, Georgia.

I: How did you like it there?

L: I liked it. It was....

I: How did you see...certainly it was a different way of life, I'm sure,

from what...

L: Definitely.

I: What's some of the differences you can point out?

L: Well, their schools were more educated. They have more programs for the

kids to pick from. They don't have, y'know, limits. And the schools are

more equipped, and they're better teachers--y'know, more educated. They

have more things for you to do, in general.

I: Um-hmm. Did this make you feel that perhaps, as an Indian,um, as you went

into another area, was your Indianness ever pointed out, or the fact....

Did you ever feel--made to feel, uh, that you were looked down on, or felt

inferior because of your Indianness?

L: No, because in Atlanta, being an Indian was really great because of your

dark skin.

I: So you were an advantage.

L: Right.

I: What seemingly was the dark skin __ \ 4a, c- ?








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LUM 104A


L: Uh,, it was just mostly because most people thought that it was a tan.

h4 didn't get a tan that quick or, y'know, it usually faded away in

the spring, in the winter time, y'know.

I: Uh-huh. Then you didn't dare tell them that you were Indian?

L: Yes, I told'em I was Indian.

I: Um-hmm. And so they didn't make you feel inferior -<-.--< and you

got no complex at all.

L: No.

I: Have you ever felt that as a result of being an Indian in any type of

community where you lived that people looked down on you, or--

L: Shouldn't / U.

I: You felt, uh, they made you--wanted you....At least you got the idea they

wanted you to feel inferior.

L: Right.

I: Where has some of these areas been?

L: Robeson County, period. (giggle)

I: Would you say all over Robeson?

L: No, not exactly all over Robeson. Most of the big cities, well, people

from big cities... .;

I: What are some of the bigger cities?

L: Well, Lumberton.

I: Lumberton. Uh, tell me how you felt this.

L: It was just most of the stores, period. Because most of them are owned by

whites.

I: All right, how do they show their, uh, discrimination or their prejudice or

however you want to term it or you would like to .-Zterm it, how do they

show it in their actions, because this is something we want to bring out.

We know it's not right, and.i-t.' that it shouldn't be, but... and this is








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LUM ]04A


part of the program. We would like you to explain how you felt this in

your own unique way, because everybody is, um, you know, feels differently

and thinks differently, even though it may be generally the same.

L: Well, in most of the stores, very few of the stores you go in you find

Indian workers. You may find black or white but very...I think there's only

one or two stores--Belk's I know has Indians in it. I think I see one or

two at Penney's, but as far as any other ones, I've never seen an Indian

working. Some of the...well, it's not the management, not the person that

owns the store, but some of the workers in there. Some of them, they,

y'know, they don't ask you if they can help you with certain things.

I: They give you the sort of indifferent, non-caring type of thing?

L: Um-hmm. (Affirmative.)

I: The stores that do employ Indians--do you feel more inclined to trade there?

L: Yes, somewhat, because...you know, they're not too...you know that they don't

mind your business, y'know. Shouldn't...you know they don't care if you buy

in there every day or what you do-- those whoI( work in there, most of them.

I: Um-hmm. In other words, they want your money.

L: That's right.

I: Can you remember hearing your mother or father, or were you .' J

P^ 9 7 | when it was even discriminated more than that? Even your

own group couldn't go to the restaurants or anything like this and buy a

hamburger or anything like that. Do you recall hearing your parents talk

about anything like this?

L: Yes, I've heard I I had this teacher once, and she was telling us

something happened.

I: What did she tell you?

L: She was telling me about--I think this is one of the stories--they were








7
LUM 104A


selling ice cream, and she wanted ice cream, but she couldn't even get

ice cream.

I: Was she an Indian teacher?

L: Right.

I: Did you feel bitterness, uh, bitterness underneath? As I hear you talk-

speak--I can feel it. I wonder what your reaction is.

L: I felt some. As long as.... I think a lot of it has died, but there's

still a lot of it that's still around. I mean, in their own way....

I: In other words, you think perhaps outwardly it's changed some, but still

people feel....

L: Right. I think that if some of them could, they'd still have it only

certain races.

I: Um-hmm. Um, being in this, uh, work, you deal with all races, don't you?

L: Right.

I: Uh, how do you feel here? Uh, I know that two weeks is, uh, not...maybe

it's kind of premature to judge, but, uh, you have an idea. How do you

feel kV' iL-tA-? '

L: Uh, I get along with all the students here. seem to be that much
seem to be that much

difference, because most of the kids in here are from different states or

from different counties or something like that. They're not from Robeson

so it's not so bad.

I: So what you're saying, they're, uh, have been acquainted with integration

long before we were, uh-huh, and have had time to get conditioned to it.

L: Right.

I: How did you feel when schools were first integrated--the whites and blacks

and in-betweens and the polka-dots, and so on?








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LUM 104A


L: Well, really, I don't mind integration. As long as there's not, you know,

any trouble.... Because you got to learn how to get along with people.

I: In any of the schools you attended was there any racial strife, you know,

ri_0 and this kind of thing?

L: Right.

I: What was the greatest that you saw?

L: Atlanta. You know, because Atlanta had this integration stuff and

we had...We had to be out of school some days because of the great" fights.

I: Well, was the Indians l) Vt-^ is as much as.... What was....

L: We only had one Indian. I was the only Indian at our school.

I: Uh, then it was mainly black and white.

L: Yes.

I: Did you ever fear to go to school?

L: No. (giggle)

I: They didn't bother you or anything?

L: No. I told them I wasn't either one so I didn't have to worry about

nothing.

I: So you remained neutral?

L: Right.
7
I: You didn't have problems with anyone .1// ).

L: Uh-uh. (Negative.)

I: Uh, the places you've lived, when you were back in Robeson, uh, would you,

uh, if working conditions were right and living conditions and so on,

would you prefer living somewhere else than through here?

L: No. I like...I don't...I think really the place you live is what you make

it, so if I make it hard on myself to live around here it's going to be hard









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LUM 104A


on me. But if I just go along and mind my business it's not as bad on me.

But if I go out here and...and, uh, try to mess with everybody else's busi-

ness and try to get everything to go along my way--the way I think it should

be--you're gonna have problems.

I: But don't you think the Indians---well, do you feel that the Indians are

more deserving of opportunities than they've had?

L: Definitely.

I: What do you think are some of the areas where it could be improved for

the Indian people?

L: Well....

I: I didn't ask you your affiliation--I assume Lumbee, because you're...

L: Right.

I: So, what areas do you see that there could be an improvement in human

relations as well as advantages and opportunities and so on?

L: Well, really, there's not too many jobs that...that, you know, that really

pay anything, or that you can really step up into in Robeson. Because

there's not that many jobs or that many opportunities to get'em.

I: Even if a person is qualified, do you think that, uh, lack of, if a person--

if you're Indian and you're qualified there's still not the opportunity here?
_ULA, teMO L: No, not really, because, most of'em,Apeople's waiting in line for'em anyway...

I don't think...I think if the Indians had the qualifications, the real

qualifications, I don't think that his race would stand in....you know,

would hurt him all that much. To an extent it would, but not too much.

I: Um-hmm. Uh, as a woman, have you felt discrimination?--forgetting your

Indianness. Uh, you know, women's lib, um, this kind of thing. What's

your comments on that?








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LUM 104A


L: I don't go along with women's liberation. I like the, I like the, the part

about the money--getting your share of money...

I: Yeah, equal pay for....equal jobs.

L: Right. If I work as hard as...get out there and work...do the same thing

as a man, only in different fields, I think I should get my pay. But

I don't go along with treating me like a man. (giggle)

I: You still like the courtesy of having the door opened and that kind of thing.

L: Right.

I: So you take pride in being a woman.

L: Right.

I: Um, do you have plans to have children, or is this too personal?

L: No, I want kids. I want a family.

I: How many would you like to have?

L: I'd like to have four. (giggle)

I: And if you had your choice of sexes, how would you pick them?

L: Two boys and two girls.

I: Have you thought about names? How would you name them? Would you have

Indian names, or....

L: We've thought about Indian names...we'll see. I'd like a boy, (Sinaway .

My father's (Indian?) my husband....

I: Do you know what this means?--the names?

L: No.

I: It's interesting, I think, the Indian names. I love them, but I don't always,,,

L: I got the name from a movie...it was a Jewish movie. I think it was Jewish.

I thought it was pretty. And my husband wants a little girl OHaneema2) .
CI: Urt-hm. Thats pretty." *,' //I j' X '-c
I: Um-hmm. That's pretty. I I
00 \ e.* tr (








11
LUM 104A


L: I thought maybe that, too. It's an Indian name. He got it from

somewhere, I forgot where he got it from. And those are about the two only

names we've picked so far.

I: Um-hmm. Uh, do you have any definite time that you plan to...do you believe

in Planned Parenthood, and this kind of thing?

L: Right! (giggle) I don't want to... Let's see, I've been married six months,

so, I think in about maybe a year... At least two years I think you should be

married. In maybe a year I'll start planning (to begin?) my first one. If

not then, we're trying to build us a house. After we get a house built or

something like that. And then, I'd like for at least a year and a half or

two years between the two.

I: And, uh, as I understand it, now, I'll get a little clearer picture about your

husband, is he in school or in training of some kind?

L: No, he's already finished his training and everything.

I: And he's working now.

L: Yes ma'am.

I: So, it has been...has become necessary for him to go out of the area to get work?

L: No, not necessarily to work. He had a job that he was wanting a raise for what

he did,ltou knowL junior engineer at a plant down here, and he wasn't

getting it. Something like another three dollars, something like that.

I: What plant was that?

L: (Ingraham?)

I: What?

L: Ingraham.

I: And what is their, uh, product or service?...

L: Clocks.

I: Clocks?

L: Clocks.








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I: Yeah, A incidental. Uh, so he gets more pay there?

L: Right.

I: And where does he... What industry, or, uh, the name of the place where he

works now?

L: I think it's, uh, the CP&L /_-_ Electrical Plant--it's an electrical plant

that they're building.

I: Uh-huh. So he's, uh, an engineer of electrical plant.....

L: Right.

I: Does he like his work?

L: Um-hmm. (Affirmative.)

I: Is he an Indian also?

L: Right.

I: How do you feel about interracial marriages? You know that we have'em all

around us. You know, we all have opinions and personalities and different

things like... How do you feel about that?

L: Well, me personally, I don't believe in it--I wouldn't marry interracially,

but I think if somebody has the desire or falls in love with someone not of

their race, I would say to hell with it, really.

I: Um-hmm. And what about the children, do you feel that they would be, uh,

classed maybe as, uh, half-breeds or all these names that we hear sometimes?

L: Yes. Well but now, now, I don't think it would be as bad.

I: Well all of us are not...

L: Right. Right.

I: ...a mixture of something. I know I have Cherokee in me, but, uh, I look like

my mother who's English, so I'm the result of a mixed marriage...

L: Uh-huh.

I: ...and we were talking the other day, and I don't believe there's really any







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LUM 104A


completely... Y'can't say "pure" anything, can you?

L: No...

I: But you do have an identity hl 'f (' 'j.'Cf r Fr'

L: Right.

I: Um, what would you want, uh, and we're talking about people that's not here

yet, bht, of your children, what would you want for them more than anything else--

as a mother, speaking as a mother. Would you try opportunities, and education,

and money, and this type of thing...?

L: I don't know, I don't...I don't believe in parents pushing their kids too far.

Because that's what's wrong with a lot of kids today.

I: Explain that. I know what you mean, but for our listeners listening, they

can't hear. ( c U

L: Well, some kids, they have their mother and father say, "Well, I want more for

you than what I had--what I growed up in. I was deprived of this and that, so

I going to give it to you in return." They say, "Go to college, do this, do

that"--well, the kid has been pushed so far, has been told to do this and do

that, and that they're...they don't.... Their parents, some of the parents

think their kids are going the wrong way, and they have to push them into what

they ant--like go to college. So they push them too hard for the kids'll get

so they don't care whether they go to college or not because they're pushed

too hard.

I: I--I see what you mean. You can get to that oint where you say, "Well, I

just can't live up to that" .._l"- ...

L: Right. bme kids are very capable of it...then they just, and then, they lose

any kind of respect for their parents 5I )

I: Um-hmm. Do you feel there's a lot of, ur, prejudice, ur, in the, ur, say, your

parents--um, you've been able to deal with it and perhaps dissolve a lot of

it in the way they feel? In other words, let's say if you had married some-








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LUM 104A


one else out of your race, would they have accepted that?

L: Yes, I think so, because I dated a lot of white guys. Most of the boys I ever

dated was white.

I: And they didn't object to that?

L: Un-umm. (Negative.)

I: Did you ever date any other, um, race, or anything_ ...?

L: Only Japanese. (giggle)

I: Japanese. How did you, uh, what was your, uh, impression of the Oriental?

L: He's all eight, but he's just too short. I couldn't talk to him. (giggle)

J' \1C' jst cut him in half.

I: But CL i t ?

L: Yeah. But, but I think he was very nice.

I: As a person.

L: Right. Ib was just as good of a guy as you could meet.

I: So, really, when you get to know people,race kind of fades into the

background, doesn't it?

L: Right.

I: Except for the human race.

L: Right.

I: Well, Ithink you're doing a great deal here, and, uh, it seems that there's a

lot of us that can do a great deal, even though you might not feel that you're

right out there at the front. It's always the person behind the front some-

times that gets things done,-and gives the impressions and so on about the...how

......you know, I walked in the door with someone else, and, uh, how it looks

and so on. Uh, how many Indians do you have in this particular department?

L: In Human Services?








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LUM 104A


I: Um-hmm.

L: Well, let's see, there's...I think we have several working under the Project...

Source, I think that's Source we've had some Indians. He has several Indians.

He has.... It's mixed...and there're quite a...it's about equal, I think.

I: How do you see Mr. Watkins as a boss, do you see that he has any prejudices,

or anything?

L: No.

I: He--he's completely comfortable with you, (you know, he's fair?)?

L: Yes. I think so, because he knows, you know, pretty much--he's not from

around here. I think he knows pretty much what's going on and everything,

so he knows how to deal with the problem, you know. He knows....

I: Have you held other jobs before ,"' this one?

L: I worked at Converse, the B.F. Goodrich Rubber Company. And I've worked with,

uh....

I: Then (it?) changed hands. How did you like Converse, er, I mean, it was the

B.F. Goodrich formerly. Did you like it there? What was...?

L: I liked it fairly well. You didn't have much of a choice of what you were...

well, you could of had a choice, but you.... About the only job you could do,

they assigned you could do it, you know, you were stuck with it.

I: This is production work...?

L: Right.

I: You had to turn out so much in, uh...they constantly.... Was you under pressure

to produce more...?

L: Yes, (giggle) definitely.

I: And then where else did you say you worked?

L: I worked in the LRDA. In the building LRDA.

I: And what was your job there?








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LUM 104A


L: I was secretary for, um, Adult Basic Education. ABE. L '^.

I: And ow did you.... What made you decide to come to PSU here and work with

thal-)I C

L: Uh, let's see, I think that c wo ago, we.... Mr. Watkins has a, a

Saturday...each Saturday morning, he has the kids in the community, comes out

to the collegArecreation.... I think it's from age five, or age three to

twelve or something like that, or sixteen. I came out one day to help with

the kids cause the students are gone home on vacation. And so, Mr. Watkins,

he didn't have a secretary so Mr. (Kent?), my boss at LRDA, asked me if I'd

like to come down here and work for Mr. Watkins because he didn't have a

secretary in the office. I said yeah, I guess I could come.

I: Uh, did you come with a pay raise or with what you were making or...?

L: Same thing.

I: Same thing. And you were satisfied with either?

L: Yes.

I: Do you find your work load is what you can take, or overloaded or underloaded,

or what?

L: No. I'm satisfied.

I: You're satisfied?

L: I'm satisfied.

I: Um, it seems like intriguing work when you.... It seems to me that you, uh,

like to work with people rather than things, as you were talking about at

Converse...

L: Right.

I: ...is this true of you?

L: Yes.

I: You seem to have an outgoing personality. I don't believe I asked you to








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LUM 104A


spell your name in full. Sometimes the people who are our listeners, uh,

(we spell?).... Would you spell your first name?

L: Phyllis, P-h-y-l-l-i-s.

I: And then your, your last name?

L: L-o-w-e-r-y.

I: Lo4gy. There's several spellings to Lowery.... % get pinned down to one.

L: Right.

I: Did you read the book (To Die Game, by Henry Barry Lowery?) ?

L: No. Not yet, I haven't really-A.that interested. I've heard a lot about it.

I: Uh, it's been said that he was "Robin Hood"--you know, steal from the rich

to give to the poor.

L: Right.

I: What do you think of this kind of stuff? Do you think it should be dis-

tributed...?

L: I don't know. (giggle) I'm poor, and I ain't got nowhere to get it. (laughs)

No, I don't...I don't remember.... I don't 1akxhkixdxbk I..I mean I never

really went back that far and read what he really did

so far, so...

I: I really thought maybe you were a distant, uh...relative of his or not, but I

know there's a lot of Lowerys in this area...

L: I was a Clark before I got married.

I: A Clark?

L: Right. And my mother...

I: That's C-1-a-r-k?

L: Right.

I: That's not--is it an English name?

L: I think so.








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LUM 104A


I: It's not Indian, is it? I don't...I mean I'm not strong....

L: I don't know how far it goes back. But this, my father...my father's parents

was Clarks, but my grandmother on my father's side was (Alokalee?) I

don't know where my grandfather's people came from.

I: It would be interesting to know. I know...I think that's the first time that

I've come across a Clark in my interviews. I mean, I've had a lot of talks,

but not with a- Indian community as such.

L: Yeah. (Henry Barry Lowery's?) daughter--his daughter's name was Polly?

I: I haven't met her, is she...?

L: No, I mean, have you read the book?

I: Oh yeah, I've read the book.

L: Does it have his people...I think...didn't it have his family in there?

I: (Who wrote it, I believe, was his wife, Revonda?)

L: He had a daughter, Polly--Polly Lowery.

I: Are you familiar with the (Chambers Brothers) ? I understand that

they are musicians in Baltimore?

L: Right.

I: Have you heard them personally?

L: They're my second cousins.

I: Is that right?

L: Yes.

I: Well, then you are related somehow, because their mother was (Henry Barry

Lowery's) *.7 .'

L: Right.

I: ...great-granddaughter.

L: Right.

I: So somewhere in the bush, there's a....








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LUM 104A


L: And my grandmother and their mother are sisters.

I: Is that right? Well, you are a descendant of (Henry Barry Lowery's)

L: Right, he was my third great-grandfather. Cause Polly, Grandma Polly, I've

seen her.

I: Uh-huh. Is she living today?

L: Uh-uh (negative). She died when I was about four or five. My grandmother

has a picture of her. But she is my mother's...my grandmother's mother.

I: Y6u mentioned earlier that your parents live in separate places, does this

tell me that perhaps your parents are separated, have been separated?

L: They're divorced.

I: They're divorced.

L: Um-hmm.

I: Well, I came from a broken home also, and I sort of feel a kindred spirit

to you. I'd like to know your reactions--How old were you when they were

separated, when the break came?

L: Fourteen.

I: How did this affect you emotionally, can you recall y .I A )

were you upset?

L: Ooooh, I was upset, but there wasn't much I could do about it because I knew

the situation, and I couldn't blame neither one--or, I couldn't blame my

mother.

I: WJat-abau, you know, hitting neither one, where would you say the fault

was greatest? Because we do, you know, in looking back AT- ft #e zL i

other people, and it sometimes helps our thoughts, particularly COr' C (6e-e .

Do you think the greatest fault was in your father?

L: Right. Me--I, personally, I think it was.








20
LUM 104A


I: Do you have a relationship with your father today? Are you able to see him?

L: Yeah, we go to visit very...pretty, pretty often.

I: (Laughs) L J 1.'3 the tape recorder does that to you sometimes.

L: Yeah.

I: How...did I ask you how many brothers and sisters you have? Are you an only

child?

L: No, there's six in the family.

I: Six. And how are the sexes distributed?

L: Three and three.

I: Three and three. Um, and where do you come in?

L: I'm the fourth.

I: You're the fourth. Were you the baby--no...

L: There's six.

I: There's six, yeah...

L: I'm the fourth of them.

I: And you were fourteen, so you had younger brothers, and older, uh, younger

siblings, as we call them, brothers and sisters, and older.... How did

it affect them? Did it, uh, in any dramatic way?

L: No, not really, cause we was expecting it, so it wasn't too bad.

I: And is your mother in good spirits. ;VN- - Ij';

L: Um-hmm. (Affirmative.)

I: Do you think.they both are?

L: I think maybe not so much for Daddy, maybe Mama not so much, but it was

something that I think needed to become, because there wasn't much more that

neither one of them could do about each other. There wasn't any use in

carrying it on and making it worse.








21
LUM 104A


I: Do you think sometimes divorce is, you know, or course we all.... Some-

times it has an ugly connotation, but is a divorce better than a bad marriage?



L: I think so.

I: Would you, before you stood up with a bad marriage and things that you felt

were--you were being treated unfairly--perhaps consider a divorce before you

try to stick it out, as some people do miserably?

L: I don't know. I really don't.

I: You don't know until you're faced with it.

L: Uh-uh. (Negative.)

I: You've never made any, uh, determinations or, uh, within your own mind, of

how...?

L: No. I hope it doesn't reach that point. (laughs)

I: I don't either. How do you see it, do you deal in this department with kids

on drugs or anything like that?

L: No.

I: Not any whatsoever. Do you have plans to, uh, does the department, or do you

know anything about that far ahead yet?

L: No, I don't.

I: So your primary interest is working for a while, settling down maybe after

you move to...after you get your house...?

L: Right.

I: ...and raise a family. Do you hope to continue to work even with a family?

Because, you know, we're beginning to have day care centers and this kind of

thing.

L: Yeah, but really, I'd like to stay home with mine.

I: Could you be happy as a complete, total housewife, with no other outside

interests?








22
LUM 104A


L: Well, I'd like, Irlc- .: C is to, uh, I'd like to stay home

with them at least while they're, while they're growing up, really.

I don't think I'd want to leave them at least until they's in school.

After they got in school, I'd like to find me a job. I think I could

find me a job here. But I think I...
/ 'j norc b^'
I: Um-hmmm. Well, if you-t-ry. I don't think you'll have

any problems.

L: (laughs) I don't think I'd like for my kids to grow up, you know,

just seeing parents sometimes.

I: I think you have the right attitude there. Psychologists and psychiatrists,

this kind of thing(' it's pretty 00s for the mother to

be with them for a while.

L: Right.

I: Um, what do you see in this department that you like best of all, so far

as the way that it's helping Indian people?

L: They're going out and getting, you know.... They're going out to reach

the people instead of letting the people come out to reach them. They're,

you know, interested in the people.

I: Um-hmm. They're 0l)4 O'the community. In what ways are they doing

this, in teams, or...?

L: Right. Yes, in teams, and they go...

I: How many's to a team?

L: I'm not sure.

I: Well, does it get--do the numbers vary?

L: Yes. And they go out--they got Project Find to help pick out students in

here that helps them, helps the people find food stamps, and everything.

This isn't only with Indian people. It's just--they help Indians as well








23
LUM 104A


as other races.

I: Anyone that's need, needy, or needs someone to help them, needs someone

from the Service to come out.

L: Right. Um-hmm.

I: Describe to me what your day is like, besides answering the telephone,

and so much typing and this kind of thing. You talk to people and so

%rh so what do you do the first thing when you come in in the

morning?

L: I go to school every day.

I: You do? Oh, I' 50 adjCC.

L: I'm a senior.

I: You're a senior here?

L: No, in high school.

I: J{,' .1I should have asked you your age. How old are you?

L: Nineteen.

I: Nineteen. Do you have plans...do you have plans for perhaps going on

to college later f1 ?

L: Maybe later, I'm not sure what education l

I: You're a senior, so you won't, you don't have to carry a full load as

such? JsLCf'7 ?

L: Right. I'm just a part-time. I go to school, I take English and, uh,

typist practice. I leave school at eleven-thirty and come, come to

work, at eleven-thirty [' .'C Iv-

I: Well, you are quite an accomplished voung lady, because I was... ;': ';.

_/'"- '.", I think you could pass for much more mature, even in your

talking and speaking. I'll bet you've had a lot of good training.








24
LUM 104A


Do you agree with this, or...?

L: I don't know. (giggles) I haven't had too much training.

I: Uh, well, maybe you're one of those self-made persons. Do you enjoy

studying, ? c_ __

L: No. I don't, I don't like to study. I like to go out and do things,

so I'm not much of a person to study, to get down into something and

study.

I: What's some of your favorite kinds of recreation, and this kind of

thing?

L: I love snorts, period. I'm athletic....

I: Which would you count as number one? I'm a P.E- major, so I (laughs)



L: Really?

I: Not a major, a minor, excuse me.

L: Yeah.

I: What's your number onp sport, that you really enjoy (perform ng?) ?

L: Basketball. I used to didn't like basketball until I started playing.

I've been playing now for four years, and I like basketball.

I: Have you had much experience with swimming?

L: No, not too much. I'd like to learn more about, you know. if I had

the time.

I: You know, they have a program here where you can learn and get your

junior lifesaving-...

L: Yeah.

I: ...and your senior lifesaving, and then go on and perhaps teach, and

that would help_ (_.1 on social services. Uh I think you're a








25
LUM 104A


great girl, because you've got the potential. If you can get kids interested

sports, you can get them off the streets, you can get them off pot, you

can...

L: Right.

I: Someone said, uh, a story I heard while I was there, I had to always share

it with someone. They wanted a child to stop smoking, and, uh, he didn't

for the basketball--he was interested in football. He wanted to play, that

was his dream, more or less, you know. So the coach told him he'd have to

stop smoking in order to play football. So he did, and they said, well,

the cure for anything that's not, you know, good for you, is to have'em

fall in love with something else.

L: Right. I think, I think that...

I: And sports sometimes can do this, you know.

L: Because anybody, to me, I'd just as soon play, you know--get interested in

some kind of game--as about do just about anything else. But now I don't...

I: It is an interaction between people, it's kind of a social, social act.

L: And you also have fun as well as competition.

I: And not to mention physical fitness...

L: Right!

I: ...to get over a weight problem.

L: Very! (laughs)

I: And right now I've been walking around too much talking to people and sitting,

but, uh, I go along with you on the sports (business) .What else are some

of your interests that you might have? How do you like cooking now that you...

L: I like to cook when I have more time. (laughs)

I: I know, working, um, e sometimes you have to kind of have quick








26
LUM 104A


meals and quick snacks, but, uh... Did you find it hard to adjust to learn

to cook, or did you know how to cook before you...?

L: I (knew to?) cook. (laughs)

I: You cooked at home?

L: Right.

I: And I guess you tookk) some Home Economics?

L: No.

I: You didn't. Why did you not do this? You had a reason?

L: I just wasn't interested in Home Ec.

I: You studied something else, then, something different?

L: Yeah.

I: What?

L: I took P.E. (laughs) I took P.E.

I: Well, research reports that girls who are active have easier times when they

have their babies, and also later in life when they go through the change of

life, and this kind of thing.

L: Really?

I: So, this might be (one where you want tol) areaa)

particularly with girls who sometimes associate it with tomboyism, and it's

not necessarily so.

L: No, I don't think so.

I: Sometimes the women that's, uh, most interested in sports are the most, uh,

when you get down to it, you say, "I'm proud of being a woman."

L: Right.

I: And, uh, more womanly p7 But, uh, you enjoy cooking--what else



L: I like to decorate, I like to paint. I paint. Me and my husband paint

together sometimes.







27
LUM 104A


I: What type of painting do you do?

L: Oil painting.

I: Oil painting? Do you prefer like still life to landscapes, or ,. ?

L: Actually, I'd rather do landscapes. I'm not too good at it (giggles),

animals, or ... I'd like to learn how to do, um, prtrajt4 I love that.

But I tried once, and (laughs) it didn't come out exactly what I wanted it.

I: Have you ever had any formal training at all?

L: Um, yes, in Atlanta I took, uh, I was in the advanced art class. I wasn't...

We had to have so much to hand in before we got our grade in. We had oil

paintings, and, uh, acrylics, um, water colors--and I even did C- ,

I like pottery, ('/

I: Well, you really are i'-C- Do you know this is another way to get

to people ... It's good therapy, to get their interest in art, even arts

and crafts, because __ l G_ __

L: Um-hmm. I love pottery.

I & L: ______ v,______

I: J-ch -"i.-C art department

L: Most girls do.

I: we have all these perhaps you could take, uh, I think they might

have art courses at night, I notice about two o'clock, (you might

be interested?) (kind of work in these things?) Is there anything else

I haven't touched on that you'd like to tell about--your job or yourself or

anything?

L: Um, I don't know. I don't think there's too much left. (laughs)

I: You think we pretty well discussed it all.

L: Right.

I: Uh, do you feel proud to be a Lumbee Indian?

L: Very. (laughs)








28
LUM 104A


I: Well, I think you should. Do you think there's enough, uh, rapport, uh, a

good relationship between the University and the community? Do you think

there's room, any room for improvement here?

L: Umm, yeah, I think there's some, but, really, Pembroke is not big enough for,

um, they don't-have the recreation for'em. They don't have a theater, and

all this. If they had more of something like, if they had a bowling alley

or a shopping center or a movie or something like this for the kids to go

to, it would be better. But I think it's great for what we have to deal

with.

I: Well, I think with young, active people like you, and--nineteen years old, did

you say? Well, you have a lot on the ball, I see you as having your feet on,

sturdy on the ground but at the same place, at the same time, you're going

places. And I want to congratulate you for the work that you're doing, I

think you're to be commended, uh, and, uh, I want you to keep speaking out

and talking for your people. Because you have a wonderful story to tell, and

a wonderful people. And I want to thank you for this interview, and for

your time.

L: Sure.

I: And on behalf of the Doris Duke Foundation and the consultant here, your

contributionswill be most welcome. And thank you again.





Full Text

PAGE 1

LUM 104A Mrs. Phyllis LoYi'ry (L) Pembroke State University April 17, 1973 Interviewer: Marilyn Taylor (I) Typed by: Paula Whidden I:My name is Marilyn Taylor. I am recording for the Doris Duke Foundation under the auspices of the University of Florida. Today is April 17, 1973. I am on the Pembroke State University campus in the Human Services Media, and I have with me the secretary of this center, and she has agreed to give us an inter view, of which we are most_grateful. Would you tell us your name, your full name, and your address? L: Mrs. Phyllis M. Low~y, Route 1, Box 137'Bi I: L: I: L: I: L: Then you are married? Yes ma'am. And what is your husband's name? Herbert Bradley Lowry. And what does he do? He's a junior engineer at Southport. , Pembroke. I: Uh, Southport, that's in, uh that's down near the coast, right? L: Yes ma'am. I: Uh, do you two get to see each other often? L: Yes ma'am, he comes home every night. I: Every night, uh, then he has to commute quite a ways, doesn't he? L: Right. I: Will you tell us something about your work here--what the Human Service Center is all about, what it strives to do, and so on? L: Well, I've only been working here about two weeks now, and so There's -------------------------------------------------

PAGE 2

------------2 LUM 104A about, there's about (C3 01 4t~ different areas they work in I: Could you name some of those? L: There's the Source Project Find, and I @forget@ some of the other ones. And there's one that's started a center up here at the Methodist Church I: It's the local Methodist Church here /41/.<.,. ? L: Um-hmm, yes ma'am. It's the one for adults, for the, uh, what do you call it? [T, v t'"h t < •:. -J Well, maybe we' 11 come back to that, //>"'7/ ~/'/' /' I: L: And, they have students that work in the office. days of the week and have to put in so many hours They come in different and they f Ct/, Lt,,{) J.•,J_{,tC-tlt J (ft tltCC\J. They're putting together a new book now, a directory for the businesses, the meetings, the different meetings of clubs that are here in Robeson County. They work with Robeson County, mainly. I: Um-hmm. And Mr. Watkins, uh, Wadkins L: Watkins. I: Would you spell that for us? L: W-a-t-k-i-n-s. I: We hope to interview him, but he is the head of this project. Is this pro i&l,ject being funded by any particular, uh, agency,~government, or anything like that? L: I'm not sure. I: You don't know whether in other words, your salary, you don't know if it comes from the state, or L: My salary comes from LRDA. I: LRDA. L: Yes ma I am.

PAGE 3

3 LUM 104A I: This is, um, the Lumbee L: Regional Development Association. I: Thank you. And which is to help Indians that are deprived at this point? L: Well, yes, and I: 1 ~ More or less j), 1,: :-, -.;..a:;.;..;......:. __ nr.v that,/lin need? L: Right. It's mainly for the kids that's family's not too well off, and they're going to school, and (thus so?) to help them so it's not too much of a burden on their parents. I: Um-hnnn. Uh, you mentioned you were married, do you have children? L: No, ma'am. I: Uh, who was your mother and father? L: Mr. and Mrs. Edwin Clark. I: Uh, are they do they live here? L: They my mother lives in Pembroke. My father lives in Saddletree. I: In Saddletree. L: Yes ma I am. I: Um, and you've lived here how long? L: About three year. I: Uh, did you Where did you go to school, grammar school and high school and so on? L: I went to several schools--you don't want me to name all of them, do you? I: Yes, do, because L: First, I went in the first grade at Saddletree, then we went to Union Chapel. From the second to the fifth grade, I went to Piney Grove, and ..• I: And that's about how far from here? You're talking in the general area, are you not?

PAGE 4

4 LUM 104A L: Yes, that's in, um, that's in Piney Grove's in (Shannon, Lumbee, too?). And Magnolia, in Magnolia I went to school. Third grade, ... I: And that's about ten or twenty miles from here, isn't it? L: Yes, somewhere around there. In third grade, I was in Fairmont. I: Um-htmn. And that's about another twenty out from this area? L: Right. And then I went to school in Atlanta for three year. I: Is that Atlanta, Georgia? L: Atlanta, Georgia. I: How did you like it there? L: I liked it. It was I: How did you see certainly it was a different way of life, I'm sure, from what ..• L: Definitely. I: What's some of the differences you can point out? L: Well, their schools were more educated. They have more programs for the kids to pick from. They don't have, y'know, limits. And the schools are more equipped, and they're better teachers--y'know, more educated. They have more things for you to do, in general. I: Um-hnn:n. Did this make you feel that perhaps, as an Indian,um, as you went into another area, was your Indianness ever pointed out, or the fact Did you ever feel--made to feel, uh, that you were looked down on, or felt inferior because of your Indianness? L: No, because in Atlanta, being an Indian was really great because of your dark skin. I: L: I: So you were an advantage. Right. What seemingly was the dark skin

PAGE 5

5 LUM 104A L: Uh,, it was just mostly because most people thought that it was a tan. didn't get a tan that quick or, y'know, it usually faded away in the spring, in the winter time, y'know. I: Uh-huh. Then you didn't dare tell them that you were Indian? L: Yes, I told'em I was Indian. I: Um-hnnn. And so they didn I t make you feel inferior ~~/""""'.;;> ,,,,/ and you got no complex at all. ' L: No. I: Have you ever felt that as a result of being an Indian in any type of L: connnunity Shouldn't where you lived that people looked down on you, or-l . I __ l ? ,,...i_ .. I: You felt, uh, they made you--wanted you At least yo~ got the idea they wanted you to feel inferior. L: Right. I: Where has some of these areas been? L: Robeson County, period. (giggle) I: Would you say all over Robeson? L: No, not exactly all over Robeson. Most of the big cities, well, people from big cities //'-;.,-:< I: What are some of the bigger cities? L: Well, Lumberton. I: Lumberton. Uh, tell me how you felt this. L: It was just most of the stores, period. Because most of them are owned by whites. I: All right, how do they show their, uh, discrimination or their prejudice or however you want to term it or you would like to /gterm it, how do they " . show it in their actions, because this is something we want to bring out. We know it's not right, and //,;,;>•"that it shouldn't be, but and this is

PAGE 6

6 LUM ]04A part of the program. We would like you to explain how you felt this in your own unique way, because everybody is, um, you know, feels differently and thinks differently, even though it may be generally the same. L: Well, in most of the stores, very few of the stores you go in you find Indian workers. You may find black or white but very ! think there's only one or two stores--Belk's I know has Indians in it. I think I see one or two at Penney's, but as far as any other ones, I've never seen an Indian working. Some of the well, it's not the management, not the person that owns the store, but some of the workers in there. Some of them, they, y'know, they don't ask you if they can help you with certain things. I: They give you the sort of indifferent, non-caring type of thing? L: Um-hnnn. (Affirmative.) I: The stores that do employ Indians--do you feel more inclined to trade there? L: Yes, somewhat, because you know, they're not too you know that they don't mind your business, y'know. Shouldn't you know they don't care if you buy in there every day or what you do--fthose who(j work in there, most of them. I: Um-hmm. In other words, they want your money. L: That's right. I: Can you remember hearing your mother or father, or were you......._,,.-;_,_._,_,,_:._' ____ _ L: ptt r-Jil f J t when it was even discriminated more than that? Even your own group couldn't go to the restaurants or anything like this and buy a hamburger or anything like that. Do you recall hearing your parents talk about anything like this? J., b D,rJ.1 Yes, I've heard/ U, T JI had this teacher once, and she was telling us something happened. I: What did she tell you? L: She was telling me about--I think this is one of the stories--they were

PAGE 7

7 , LUM 104A selling ice cream, and she wanted ice cream, but she couldn ~'t . even get ice cream. I: Was she an Indian teacher? L: Right. I: Did you feel bitterness, uh, bitterness underneath? As I hear you talk-~ speak--I can feel it. I wonder what your reaction is. L: I felt some. As long as I think a lot of it has died, but there's still a lot of it that's still around. I mean, in their own way I: In other words, you think perhaps outwardly it's changed some, but still people feel L: Right. I think that if some of them could, they'd still have it only certain races. I: Um-hmm. Um, being in this, uh, work, you deal with all races, don't you? L: Right. I: Uh, how do you feel here? Uh, I know that two weeks is, uh, not maybe L: it's kind of premature to judge, but, uh, you have an idea. How do you feel a ht?V t ,t-? .-,"'I p~t•:}~.,_ . Uh, I get along with all the students here. 7 I;\(, r .... to be that much difference, because most of the kids in here are from different states or from different counties or something like that. They're not from Robeson so it's not so bad. I: So what you're s_aying, they're, uh, have been acquainted with integration long before we were, uh-huh, and have had time to get conditioned to it. L: Right. I: How did you feel when schools were first integrated--the whites and blacks and in-betweens and the polka-dots, and so on?

PAGE 8

8 LUM 104A. L: Well, really, I don't mind integration. As long as there's not, you know, any trouble Because you got to learn how to get along with people. I: In any of the schools you attended was there any racial strife, you know, riOi3 and this kind of thing? L: Right. I: What was the greatest that you saw? L: 1;'0 Atlanta. You know, because Atlanta had this integration stuff and we had We had to be out of schoot some days because of the'fgrea~ fights. I f {\ Well, was the Indians { l}vo,Vl{t v.lt is as much as What was I: L: We only had one Indian. I was the only Indian at our school. I: Uh, then it was mainly black and white. L: Yes. I: Did you ever fear to go to school? L: No. (giggle) I: They didn't bother you or anything? L: No. I told them I wasn't either one so I didn't have to worry about nothing. I: L: So you remained neutral? Right. I: ? You didn't have problems with anyone •//JI( ) L: Uh-uh. (Negative.) I: Uh, the places you've lived, when you were back in Robeson, uh, would you, uh, if working conditions were right and living conditions and so on, would you prefer living somewhere else than through here? L: No. I like I don't I think really the place you live is what you make it, so if I make it hard on myself to live around here it's going to be hard

PAGE 9

~--------------------------------------------------.... I 9 LUM 104A on me. But if I just go along and mind my business it's not as bad on me. But if I go out here and and, uh, try to mess with everybody else's busi ness and try to get everything to go along my way--the way I think it should be--you're gonna have problems. I: But don't you think the Indians---well, do you feel that the Indians are more deserving of opportunities than they've had? L: Definitely. I: What do you think are some of the areas where it could be improved for the Indian people? L: Well. I: I didn't ask you your affiliation--! assume Lumbee, because you're L: Right. I: So, what areas do ~ou see that there could be an improvement in human relations as well as advantages and opportunities and so on? L: Well, really, there's not too many jobs that that, you know, that really pay anything, or that you can really step up into in Robeson. Because there's not that many jobs or that many opportunities to get'em. I: L: Even if a person is qualified, do you think that, uh, lack of, if a person~ if you're Indian and you're qualified there's still not the opportunity here? ...uiA._~,J:~ No, not really, because, most of'em,Apeople's waiting in line for'em anyway I don't think I think if the Indians had the qualifications, the real qualifications, I don't think that his race would stand in you know, would hurt him all that much. To an extent it would, but not too much. I: Um-hnnn.. Uh, as a woman, have you felt discrimination?--forgetting your Indianness. Uh, you know, women's lib, um, this kind of thing. What's your comments on that?

PAGE 10

10 LUM 104A L: I don't go along with women's liberation. I like the, I like the, the part about the money--getting your share of money I: Yeah, equal pay for equal jobs. L: Right. If I work as hard as get out there and work do the same thing as a man, only in different fields, I think I should get my pay. But I don't go along with treating me like a man. (giggle) I: You still like the courtesy of having the door opened and that kind of thing. L: Right. I: So you take pride in being a woman. L: Right. I: Um, do you have plans to have children, or is this too personal? L: No, I want kids. I want a family. I: How many would you like to have? L: I'd like to have four. (giggle) I: And if you had your choice of sexes, how would you pick them? L: Two boys and two girls. I: Have you thought about names? How would you name them? Would you have Indian names, or ... L: We've thought about Indian names we'll see. I'd like a boy, :.(Sinaway(f My father's (Indian?) , my husband I: Do you know what .this means?--the names? L: No. I: It's interesting, I think, the Indian names~ I love them, but I don't always,,~ L: I got the name from a movie it was a Jewish movie. I think it was Jewish. I: r.: I thou_ght it was pretty. And my hush.and wants a little girl f(Haneema2,) He ~nt.l)l.,tJ),.J if t-V;"i l it /l :r:1~\l' ,7,-:., \, dt1 l!V. , 1-f-c J-r f ;~rJ-;•T'rt\,_ Um-hmm. That's pretty. } J: Cn1\ (: f i) \ (' r C:.. 1o

PAGE 11

---------------------11 LUM 104A L: too. It's an Indian name. He got it from somewhere, I forgot where he got it from. And those are about the two only names we've picked so far. I: Um-hmm. Uh, do you have any definite time that you plan to do you believe in Planned Parenthood, and this kind of thing? L: Right! (giggle) I don't want to Let's see, I've been married six months, so, I think in about maybe a year At least two years I think you should be married. In maybe a year I'll start planning (to begin?) my first one. If not then, we're trying to build us a house. After we get a house built or something like that. And then, I'd like for at least a year and a half or two years between the two. I: And, uh, as I understand it, now, I'll get a little clearer picture about your husband, is he in school or in training of some kind? L: No, he's already finished his training and everything. I: And he's working now. L: Yes ma' am. I: So, it has been has become necessary for him to go out of the area to get work? L: No, not necessarily to work. He had a job that he was wanting a raise for what he did,~ou know?f~, junior engineer at a plant down here, and he wasn't I: L: I: L: I: L: I: L: getting it. Something like another three dollars, something like that. What plant was that? (Ingraham?) What? Ingraham. And what is their, uh, product or service? Clocks. Clocks? Clocks.

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12 LUM 104A I: Yeah, ___ ........ l~l-~-------.1Jincidental. Uh, so he gets more pay there? L: Right. I: And where does he What industrv, or, uh, the name of the place where he works now? L: I think it's, uh, the CP&L .,,1~{:,5/ Electrical Plant--it's an electrical plant that they're building. I: Uh-huh. So he's, uh, an engineer of electr.ical plant L: Right. I: Does he like his work? L: Um-hmm. (Affirmative.) I: Is he an Indian also? L: Right. I: How do you feel about interracial marriages? You know that we have'em all around us. You know, we all have opinions and personalities and different things like How do you feel about that? L: Well, me personally, I don't believe in it--I wouldn't marry interracially, but I think if somebody has the desire or falls in love with someone not of their race, I would say to hell with it, really. I: Um-hmm. And what about the children, do you feel that they would be, uh, classed maybe as, uh, half-breeds or all these names that we hear sometimes? L: Yes. Well but now, now, I don't think it would be as bad. I: Well all of us are not L: Right. Right. I: a mixture of something. I know I have Cherokee in me, but, uh, I look like my mother who's English, so I'm the result of a mixed marriage L: Uh-huh. I: and we were talking the other day, and I don't believe there's really any

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13 LUM 104A completely Y'can't say "pure" anything, can you? L: No I: L: Right. I: Um, what would you want, uh, and we're talking about people that's not here yet, rut, of your children, what would you want for them more than anything elseas a mother, speaking as a mother. Would you try opportunities, and education, and money, and this type of thing ? L: I don't know, I don't I don't believe in parents pushing their kids too far. Because that's what's wrong with a lot of kids today. I: Explain that. I know what you mean, but for our listeners listening, they can't hear. r) L: Well, some kids, they have their mother and father say, "Well, I want more for you than what I had--what I growed up in. I was deprived of this and that, so I going to give it to you in return." They say, "Go to college, do this, do. that"--well, the kid has been pushed so far, has been told to do this and do that, and that they're they don't Their parents, some of the parents think their kids are going the wrong way, and they have to push them into what theymnt--like go to college. So they push them too hard for the kids'll get ~r so they don't care whether they go to college or not because they're pushed too hard. I: 1--I see what you mean. You can get to.' ~h~~oint d o4CA ,: fr'-l just can't live up to that" t.l:.. .,J .-:"': where you say, "Well, I L: Right. SJme kids are very capable of it then they just, and then, they lose (! t. . ' ,. .L any kind of respect for their parents 1 () /l\:J ';'v\.,. < ( 1 ' _'i).., I: um~hmm. Do you feel there's a lot of, um, prejudice, um, in the, um, say, your parents--um, you've been able to deal with it and perhaps dissolve a lot of it in tqe way they feel? In other words, let's say if you had married some

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14 LUM 104A one else out of your race, would they have accepted that? L: Yes, I think so, because I dated .a lot of white guys. Most of the boys I ever dated was white. I: And they didn't object to that? L: Un-umm. (Negative.) I: Did you ever date any other, um, race, or anything ? --L: Only Japanese. (giggle) I: Japanese. How did you, uh, what was your, uh, impression of the Oriental? L: He's all light, but he's just too short. I: .. \ \ 1 ht'(' )ls t cut him in half. But CC-t f\CJ-E. ''-'(J? L: Yeah. But, but I think he was very nice. I: As a person. I couldn't talk to him. (giggle) L: Right. le was just as good of a guy as you could meet. I: So, really, when you get to know people,race kind of fades into the background, doesn't it? L: Right. I: Except for the human race, L: Right. I: Well, I think you're doing a great deal here, and, uh, it seems that there's a lot of us that can do a great deal, even though you might not feel that you're right out there at the front. It's always the person behind the front some times 1hat gets things done,-and gives the impressions and so on about the how you know, I walked in the door with someone else, and, uh, how it looks and so on. Uh, how many Indians do you have in this particular department? L: In Human Services?

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15 LUM 104A I: Um-hnnn. L: Well, let's see, there's ! think we have several working under the Project Source, I think that's Source we've had some Indians. He has several Indians. He has It's mixed and there're quite a it's about equal, I think. I: How do you see Mr. Watkins as a boss, do you see that he has any prejudices, or anything? L: No. I: He--he's completely comfortable with you, (you know, he's fair?)? L: Yes. I think so, because he knows, you know, pretty much--he's not from around here. I think he knows pretty much what's going on and everything, so he knows how to deal with the problem, you know. He knows I: Have you held other jobs before t-.,-. this one? L: I worked at Converse, the B.F. Goodrich Rubber Company. And I've worked with, uh I: Then (it?) changed hands. How did you like Converse, er, I mean, it was the B.F. Goodrich formerly. Did you like it there? What was ? L: I liked it fairly well. You didn't have much of a choice of what you were well, you could of had a choice, but you About the only job you could do, they assigned you could do it, you know, you were stuck with it. I: This is production work ? L: Right. I: You had to turn out so much in, uh they constantly Was you under pressure to produce more ? L: Yes, (giggle) definitely. I: And then where else did you say you worked? L: I worked in the LRDA. In the building LRDA. I: And what was your job there?

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16 LUM 104A L: I was secretary for, um, Adult Basic Education. ABE. I: And)!.ow did you What made you decide to come to PSU here and work with I l'r-( 1 (C.;:J L: thlla' ? , Ii, .-cL•r. -~ Uh, let s see, I think that 1='-'.' ~1'1wo ago, we. Mr. Watkins has a, , a Saturday each Saturday morning, he has the kids in the community, comes out to the colleg~ecreation I think it's from age five, or age three to twelve or something like that, or sixteen. I came out one day to help with the kids cause the students are gone home on vacation. And so, Mr. Watkins, he didn't have a secretary so Mr. (Kent?), my boss at LRDA, asked me if I'd like to come down here and work for Mr. Watkins because he didn't have a secretary in the office. I said yeah, I guess I could come. I: Uh, did you come with a pay raise or with what you were making or ? L: Same thing. I: Same thing. And you were satisfied with either? L: Yes. I: Do you find your work load is what you can take, or overloaded or underloaded, or what? L: No. I'm satisfied. I: You're satisfied? L: I'm satisfied. I: Um, it seems like intriguing work when you It seems to me that you, uh, like to work with people rather than things, as you were talking about at Converse L: Right. I: is this true of you? L: Yes. I: You seem to have an outgoing personality. I don't believe I asked you to

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17 LUM 104A spell your name in full. Sometimes the people who are our listeners, uh, (we spell?) Would you spell your first name? L: Phyllis, P-h-y-1-1-i-s. I: And then your, your last name? L: I: L: L-o-w-e-r-y. Lo~. Right. . I ~J f There's several spellings to Lowery L~., get pinned down to one. I: Did you read the book (To Die Game, by Henry Barry Lowery?)? L: ao+No. Not yet, I haven't really... , that interested. I've heard a lot about it. I: Uh, it's been said that he was "Robin Hood"--you know, steal from the rich to give to the poor. L: Right. I: What do you think of this kind of stuff? Do you think it should be dis tributed ? L: I don't know. (giggle) I'm poor, and I ain't got nowhere to get it. (laughs) ~~..Jv..M~ No, I don't I don't remember I don't Mkxxxkdams:• I I mean I never really went back that far and read what he really did c~ r\vf ~-Ct-f' ") so far, so I: I really thought maybe you were a distant, uh relative of his or not, but I know there's a lot of Lowerys in this area L: I was a Clark before I got married. I: A Clark? L: Right. And my mother I: That's C-1-a-r-k? L: Right. I: That!-s not--is it an English name? L: I think so.

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18 LUM 104A I: It's not Indian, is it? I don't I mean I'm not strong L: I don't know how far it goes back. But this, my father my father's parents was Clarks, but my grandmother on my father's side was (Alokalee?) -~;;......;;..;;.;..;;;.:;;;..~--"-I don't know where my grandfather's people came from. I: It would be interesting to know. I know ! think that's the first time that I've come across a Clark in my interviews. I mean, I've had a lot of talks, but not with~ Indian community as such. L: Yeah. -~(~H~e~n~ry.,,_~B~a~r~ry.,,_~L~o~w~e~ry.,,_'~s~?~)daughter--his daughter's name was Polly? I: L: I: I haven't met her, is she ? No, I mean, have you read the book? Oh yeah, I've read the book. L: I: Does it have his people ! think didn't it have his family in there? (Who wrote it, I believe, was his wife, Revonda?) L: He had a daughter, Polly--Polly Lowery. I: Are you familiar with the _ _,;(~C~h_am_b_e_r_s-'--B_r_o_th_e_r_s~) ___ ? I understand that they are musicians in Baltimore? L: Right. I: Have you heard them personally? L: They're my second cousins. I: Is that right? L: Yes. I: Well, then you are related somehow, because their mother was L t ) ()'Y'-;'-' fi,,., I~ J J;.'OWery S J "•" ., . ','t, ..., L: Right. I: great-granddaughter. L: Right. I: So somewhere in the bush, there's a (Henry Barry

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19 LUM 104A L: And my grandmother and their mother are sisters. I: Is that right? Well, you are a descendant of ___ (._H_e_n_ry.....__B_a_r_ry......__L_o_w_e_ry ........ _'_s.,_)_! L: Right, he was my third great-grandfather. Cause Polly, Grandma Polly, I've seen her. I: Uh-huh. Is she living today? L: Uh-uh (negative). She died when I was about four or five. My grandmother has a picture of her. But she is my mother's my grandmother's mother. I: You mentioned earlier that your parents live in separate places, does this tell me that perhaps your parents are separated, have been separated? L: They're divorced. I: They're divorced. L: Um-hnnn. I: Well, I came from a broken home also, and I sort of feel a kindred spirit to you. I'd like to know your reactions--How old were you when they were separated, when the break came? L: Fourteen. I: How did this affect you emotionally, can you recall , were you upset? ----L: Ooooh, I was upset, but there wasn't much I could do about it because I knew the situation, and I couldn't blame neither one--or, I couldn't blame my I: mother . r, .t,,,. l-. 1•; 1, c!,t ~you know, hitting neither one, where would you say the fault was greatest? I ,, II J.Because we do, you know, in looking back other people, and it sometimes helps our thoughts, particularly Cvt r"-C,{~.....,,, J. Do you think the greatest fault was in your father? L: Right. Me--1, personally, I think it was.

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20 LUM 104A I: Do you have a relationship with your father today? Are you able to see him? L: Yeah, we go to visit very pretty, pretty often. I: (Laughs) ___ f ....... v_"_~_(l_.(,_c_.'\,_J ____ , the tape recorder does that to you sometimes. L: Yeah. I: How did I ask you how many brothers and sisters you have? Are you an only child? L: No, there's six in the family. I: Six. And how are the sexes distributed? L: Three and three. I: Three and three. Um, and where do you come in? L: I'm the fourth. I: You're the fourth. Were you the baby--no L: There's six. I: There's six, yeah L: I'm the fourth of them. I: And you were fourteen, so you had younger brothers, and older, uh, younger siblings, as we call them, brothers and sisters, and older How did it affect them? Did it, uh, in any dramatic way? L: No, not really, cause we was expecting it, so it wasn't too bad. I: ,6 j f' tJ ..l/ 'i• I ? And is your mother in good spiri ts(f ti 1\-, .,. t I\} J' l 1 ..',J 1 L: Um-hmm. (Affirmative.) I: D9 yo_u think.they both are? L: I think maybe not so much for Daddy, J11a.ybe Mama not so much, but it was something that I think needed to become, because there wasn't much more that neither one of them could do about each other. There wasn't any use in carrying it on and making it worse.

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21 LUM 104A I: Do you think sometimes divorce is, you know, or course we all Sometimes it has an ugly connotation, but is a divorce better than a bad marriage? L: I think so. I: Would you, before you stood up with a bad marriage and things that you felt were--you were being treated unfairly--perhaps consider a divorce before you try to stick it out, as some people do miserably? L: I don't know. I really don't. I: You don't know until you're faced with it. L: Uh-uh. (Negative.) I: You've never made any, uh, determinations or, uh, within your own mind, of how ? L: No. I hope it doesn't reach that point. (laughs) I: I don't either. How do you see it, do you deal in this department with kids on drugs or anything like that? L: No. I: Not any whatsoever. Do you have plans to, uh, does the department, or do you know anything about that far ahead yet? L: No, I don't. I: So your primary inte~est is working for a while, settling down maybe after you move to after you get your house ? L: Right. I: and raise a family. Do you hope to continue to work even with a family? Because, you know, we're beginning to have day care centers and this kind of thing. L: Yeah, but really, I'd like to stay home with mine. I: Could you be happy as a complete, total housewife, with no other outside interests?

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22 LUM 104A L: I: Well, I'd like, l , J. ,.-'.: !• Ir. --..:C-:..1.;;..t,_,__1_~_-..;..:_,1-"1'_1_.=-•...,_ is to, uh, I'd like to stay home with them at least while they're, while they're growing up, really. I don't think I'd want to leave them at least until they's in school. After they got in school, I'd like to find me a job. I think I could find me a job here. But I think b t Jl,.s tf c, i'1 h , •;:..a I"\ 1 ,,n of"eum-hmmm. Well, if you-t-'!7" _________ , I don't think you'il have any problems. L: (laughs) I don't think I'd like for my kids to grow up, you know, just seeing parents sometimes. I: I think you have the right attitude there. Psychologists and psychiatrists, '~"'c.,/.(lirJ 11 /?\ . this kind of thin~ 1 it's pretty 'O 00 et' \; .,l for the mother to be with them for a while. L: Right. I: Um, what do you see in this department that you like best of all, so far as the way that it's he1ping Indian people? L: They're going out and getting, you know They're going out to reach the people instead of letting the people come out to reach them. They're, you know, interested in the people. J,. )1\+-' I: Um-hrn. They're tfOi l)j OLl I the community. In what ways are they doing ...J this, in teams, or ? L: Right. Yes, in teams, and they go I: How many's to a team? L: I'm not sure. I: Well, does it get--do the numbers vary? L: Yes. And they go out--they got Project Find to nelp pick out students in here that helps them, helps the people find food stamps, and everything. This isn't only with Indian people. It's just--they help Indians as well

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23 LUM 104A as other races. I: Anyone thAt's need. needy, or needs someone to help them, needs someone from the Service to come out. L: Right. Um-lunm. I: Describe to me what your day is like, besides answering the telephone, and so much typing and this kind of thing. You talk to people and so {o,..-J:'h , so what do you do the first thing when you come in in the morning? L: I go to school every day. ;"'\ {1 J You do? Oh', Ih,, so j ),,ci. 1 I: L: I'm a senior. I: You're a senior here? L: No, in high school. I: J';/1! .i.,"'2,\:}, I should have asked you your age. How old are you? L: Nineteen. I: Nineteen. Do you have plans do you have plans for perhaps going on to college later L: Maybe later, I'm not sure what education -L't~y--~---~_( __ I: You're a senior, so you won't, you don't have to carry a full load as I f~, :/ such? \.;,f\{.l•. -~-\ 1 ? L: Right. I'm just a part-time. I go to school, I take English and, uh, typist practice. I leave school at eleven-thirty and come, come to I: . I I 1 h ~I VA work, at e even-t irty) t , c .__., Well, you are quite an accomplished voung lady, because I was //.;; ... .,,,,,,, I think you could pass for much more mature, even in vour talking and speaking. I'll bet you've had a lot of good training.

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24 LUM 104A Do you agree with this, or ? L: I don't know. (giggles) I haven't had too much training. I: Uh, well. mayryou're one of those studying, L lH'\d((: \] ? self-made persons. Do you enjoy L: No. I don't, I don't like to studv. I like to go out and do things, So I'm not much of a person to study, to get down into something and study. I: What's same of your favorite kinds of recreation, and this kind of thing? L: I love sports, period. I'm athletir I: Which would you count as number one? I'm a P.E. major, sn I (laughs) L: Reallv? , I: Not a major, a minor. excuse me. L: Yeah. I: What's vour number onP sport, that you re;illy enjov (c-2/Jc.<;;<-fi ~) (Eerform ng?) ? L: Basketball. I used to didn't like basketball until I started nlaying. I've been playing now for four years, and I like basketball. I: Have you had much experience with swimmin~? L: No, not too much. I'd like to learn more about, you know. if I had the time. I: You know, they have a program here where you can learn and get vour iunior lifesaving.... '' .i L: Yeah. I: and your senior lifesaving, and then go on and perhaps teach, and th;:it would help siGi\ on social services. Uh I think you're a

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25 LUM 104A great girl, because you've got the potential. If you can get kids interested sports, you can get them off the streets, you can get them off pot, you can L: Right. I: Someone said, uh, a story I heard while I was there, I had to always share it with someone. They wanted a child to stop smoking, and, uh, he didn't for the basketball--he was interested in football. He wanted to play, that was his dream, more or less, you know. So the coach told him he'd have to stop smoking in order to play football. So he did, and they said, well, the cure for anything that's not, you know, good for you, is to have'em fall in love with something else. L: Right. I think, I think that I: And sports sometimes can do this, you know. L: Because anybody, to me, I'd just as soon play, you know--get interested in some kind of game--as about do just about anything else. But now I don't I: It is an interaction between people, it's kind of a social, social act. L: And you also have fun as well as competition. I: And not to mention physical fitness L: Right! I: to get over a weight problem. L: Very! (laughs) I: And right now I've been walking around too much talking to people and sitting, but, uh, I go along with you on the sports (business) What else are some of your interests that you might have? How do you like cooking now that you L: I like to cook when I have more time. (laughs) I: I know, working, um, ~.rSot'I sometimes you have to kind of have quick

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26 LUM 104A meals and quick snacks, but, uh Did you find it hard to adjust to learn to cook, or did you know how to cook before you ? L: I _ __.(_kn_e_w..;,._t_o_?_._)_ cook. (laughs) I: You cooked at home? L: Right. I: And I guess you (tookf) some Home Economics? L: No. I: You didn't. Why did you not do this? You had a reason? L: I just wasn't interested in Home Ee. I: You studied something else, then, something different? L: Yeah. I: What? L: I took P.E. (laughs) I took P.E. I: Well, research reports that girls who are active have easier times when they have their babies, and also later in life when they go through the change of life, and this kind of thing. L: Really? I: So, this might be _ _,(~o_n_e_w_h_e_r_e__.._y_o_u_w_a_n_t_t_o--'-tJ ..... _ _,(_a_r_e_a""'"I .... , __________ _ particularly with girls who sometimes associate it with tomboyism, and it's not necessarily so. L: No, I don't think so. I: Sometimes the women that's, uh, most interested in sports are the most, uh, when you get down to it, you say, "I'm proud of being a woman." L: Right. I: And, uh, more womanly -tJ-W-f-"_1)_,. ___ _ L n,v,.,~ble) 1 But, uh, you enjoy cooking--what else L: I like to decorate, I like to paint. I .paint. Me and my husband paint together sometimes.

PAGE 27

LUM 104A I: What type of painting do you do? L: Oil painting. 27 I: Oil painting? Do you prefer like still life to landscapes, or~c~•~•~•:..----? L: Actually, I'd rather do landscapes. I'm not too good at it (giggles), animals, or I'd like to learn how to do, um, PDrtrait~ I love that. But I tried once, and (laughs) it didn't come out exactly what I wanted it. I: Have you ever had any formal training at all? L: Um, yes, in Atlanta I took, uh, I was in the advanced art class. I wasn't We had to have so much to hand in before we got our grade in. We had oil paintings, and, uh, acrylics, um, water colors--and I even did one. < 1i,/ I I: I like pottery, ,,v (I.I<'. fr{\, 11 ,, ' . Well, you really are t..ifJM,r,,,: .( .$_'1Y..:'~u know this is another way to get to people It's good therapy, to get their interest in art, even arts L: Um-hnnn. I love pottery. r & 1: '""(.!(-at~' ... ,:). H ,;-;.,,c._j c }'t _ . I ? I: ..j'Cf.'l}"t -~,\-C.. art department __ f'\_f'_f_( __ _______ _ L: Most girls do. I: ? ? _____ we have all these __ ._perhaps you could take, uh, I think they might have art courses at night, I notice about two o'clock, ---(you might be interested?) (kind of work in these things?) Is there anything else I haven't touched on that you'd like to tell about--your job or yourself or anything? L: Um, I don't know. I don't think there's too much left. (laughs) ' I: You think we pretty well discussed it all. L: Right. I: Uh, do you feel proud to be a Lumbee Indian? L: Very. (laughs)

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28 LUM 104A I: Well, I think you should. Do you think there's enough, uh, rapport, uh, a good relationship between the University and the community? Do you think there's room, any room for improvement here? L: Umm, yeah, I think there's some, but, really, Pembroke is not big enough for, um, they don't-have the recreation for'em. They don't have a theater, and all this. If they had more of something like, if they had a bowling alley or a shopping center or a movie or something like this for the kids to go to, it would be better. But I think it's great for what we have to deal with. I: Well, I think with young, active pepple like you, and--nineteen years old, did you say? Well, you have a lot on the ball, I see you as having your feet on, sturdy on,tha ground but at the same place, at the same time, you're going places. And I want to congratulate you for the work that you're doing, I think you're to be commended, uh, and, uh, I want you to keep speaking out and talking for your people. Because you have a wonderful story to tell, and a wonderful people. And I want to thank you for this interview, and for your time. L: Sure. I: And on behalf of the Doris Duke Foundation and the consultant here, your r contributionswill be most welcome. And thank you again.