Title: Interview with Gregg Gouns
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007088/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Gregg Gouns
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Spatial Coverage: Lumbee County (Fla.)
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00007088
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 101A

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Full Text


This Oral History is copyrighted by the Interviewee
and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of

Copyright, 2005, University of Florida.
All rights, reserved.

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instruction, and private study under the provisions
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LUM 101A

Gregg Goins (G)
Pembroke, North Carolina

Interviewer: Marilyn Taylor (I)
April 20, 1973

Typed by: Paula Williams

I: This is April 20, 1973. I am in the Pembroke ABC store--the only ABC

store in Pembroke. In many ways we feel proud of it. I am in the office

of one of the employees here who is also a student at Pembroke State

University. Sir, would you tell us your full name?

G: Gregg Goins, G-o-i-n-s.

I: And what is your address?

G: Post Office Box 801, Pembroke.

I: And your home is Pembroke, then, is it?

G: I live about three miles out of town.

I: Have you lived in this area most of your life?

G: All my life.

I: You understand, as I went to one of your classes last night, I think,

that this is...something about this program? Do you identify with the

Indian, and if so, what, uh, you know, what name or group is your iden-

tification with if you have this...?

G: I guess I identify with the Robeson County Indians, no matter what the


I: Robeson County, yeah. Well, I was wanting to get...to be more specific.

Do you identify with the Lumbee, the Tuscarora, or what? Is there any

faction there...?

G: The two groups combined as far as I'm concerned. They are the same.

LUM 101A 2

I: They are combined.

G: They're all (relatively -) the same people. They just want to use

different names, (that's what they're gonna getV .

I: What do you see, um, the main difference in the two? The two groups

c u" __ "iean- e Lumbee and Tuscarora _

G: The only difference is just their opinion, because they're the same


I: Well, what is the difference in your opinion? This makes a great deal...

sometimes a difference. What do you think? In your opinion, I'm

speaking of. This is what we're seeking is your opinion and it doesn't

have to be official, it doesn't have to be documented or...much of it is

perhaps, hearsay, but at the same time it can be your opinion or your

impression. It doesn't have to be bona fide and documented and post-

scripted and this kind of thing.

G: I don't really have much of an opinion. I just sit back and let

things go on, you know, and don't get involved.

I: In other words, you wouldn't get involved if it came to it...I mean, if

the pressure was put on you hard enough, would you get involved?

G: Well, if I had to, I could get involved, but as long as I don't have to,

I won't get involved.

I: How do you feel about the group that's in Raleigh now? I understand

from the news this morning that they were released from jail. Do you

think that they are accomplishing anything to any major degree, or

what do you feel is their purpose? I'm sure you have some opinion there.

G: They're getting, you know, recognition, but that's about the only thing

I can see.

LUM 101A 3

I: And do you think recognition is important from an Indian standpoint?

G: It helps.

I: In what way does it help?

G: Well, I'll have to think about that a little bit.

I: Perhaps the American Indian has not been seen or recognized. Could it


G: Well, he's usually been invisible, especially around here.

I: Yeah.

G: We have some Indians that...a lot of people don't think they are by

their looks, but they're Indian.

I: What would describe what an Indian is? Is it an attitude? I've talked

to many white people and I've heard some Indian friends say, "Well, you

could be an Indian if you wanted to," you know, talking to the whites,

because they say, "Well, if you have more beliefs and more respect for
'c/&- ^>^ ((OM<=-eoT=I*'< te Z(ofs:'
our beliefs than I Is it an attitude, because we see

many blacks supporting the Indian movement, and many whites.

G: Well, it could be an attitude or maybe the culture. I

heard one guy say it's what one believes himself to be. If somebody

believes they're an Indian, they're an Indian, whether they look like

it or not.

I: And you hold that this thing of going and taking blood samples and

determining how much Indian you are and this kind of thing), .

whether you're recognized as being able to get so much government

assistance on this basis, of how much Indian you have in you?

G: It might could determine who had...you know, who were more full-blooded

Indians, but you got some that might be one-third but have been, you

know, lived(w*h)Indians all their life. You got some that are a

LUM 101A 4

hundred percent and lived as Indians all their life, and one's just as

good as the other one. They have the same opinions, same people, even

though they don't look alike.

I: Well, as we mentioned earlier, you are a student at Pembroke State Univer-

sity. What is your endeavor there? What do you want to do?

G: I want to get a business degree.

I: A business degree. What is your status now? Are you a freshman, senior,

or what?

G: I'm taking sophomore courses now, and I'll be taking junior courses next


G --n-is-n--Goinsi.

I: Goins. Are you married...?

G: Most people don't consider that an Indian name...very few Goins around


I: Well, I've had occasion to come into contact with l-Cc e .

As you say, \'A vt 6 P predominantly 1 Locklear Oxendine

G: o.

I: Are you married, Mr. Goins?

G: Well, I have been. I've been separated a year now.

I: Do you have children?

G: Three kids.

I: Are you able to have contact with your kids?

G: Yeah.

I: And if I get too personal or anything, because I realize these things

are personal) it- Divorces and separations happen to the

LUM 101A 5

best of people. I know, because I've experienced it in my family--had

problems myself and in my immediate family. What's the ages of these

kids--your kids?

G: The youngest is about five and a half, seven, and then eight--maybe


I: And what sex--how are they mixed?

G: Two boys and p girl.

I: Do you find the boys siding against the girl any? Have you seen any

evidence of this? You know, they say three...a triangle doesn't work

good?'r On this basis I'm asking the question ...

G: The boys tend to against her.

I: Against her, and she's the baby, too. But does she look up to her

brothers, or has she got to this point yet? How old is she?

G: In a way she does.

I: In a way.

G: She's about five and a half. Pretty smart for her age.

I: Does she attend kindergarten or anything? She's not school age...

G: She has been old enough for kindergarten but she hasn't been enrolled.

She will be this summer, maybe.

I: Is your wife a local person? Is she from around here?

G: Yes.

I: Then, would she identify with the Lumbee or the Robeson County Indians

as you identify it as such?

G: Right.

I: When you were with--if I'm (right. ,I'm gonna ask this--how long were

you married before you, I mean, when the state of separation came?

G: Well, we were together eight or nine years.

I: Did you find that in your marriage, of the children, did it impose

LUM 101A 6

restrictions on the marriage, or did it help?

G: Not really, because my parents kept the two oldest kids all the time.

We only kept the baby, and as far as going out and buying clothes and

food for them, I had no kids. We stayed right across the highway

from each other so we seen the kids and the baby, but they wasn't any

burden to us.

I: Who is your mother and father?

G: Tom Goins and Mary Lee Goins.

I: You mentioned earlier as we talked--we didn't get it on tape--that you

were adopted. Could you tell me how ,this came about?

G: Well, my adopted mother was really my second or third cousin, and that's

why she adopted me?4 .

I: Under what conditions --- hi? Was it economic conditions or

P .J just rather live...?
yk% htiJ/ca ka ti A S t<)e
G: Mainly. My mother (old-me -what-iappeneed)---when-she=wJas= regnan

"-and didn't have any means of support.

I: I see. In your marriage, did you find that there was much discipline

of the children that you took part in, or did you mainly leave it up

to the grandparents and the wife?

G: Well, it was kind of split between the three of us.

I: So it was sort of a shared thing.

G: Um-hmm. affirmative2

I: About how often do you get to see your kids?

G: Iieup) the kids every weekend. I pick them up on Friday and keep them

until Sunday night. Sometimes during the week I might go pick them up

and keep them that day.

I: Do you have helpAwith them, or do you do things with them alone?

G: What are you referring to now?

LUM 101A 7

I: Well, I mean they have certain physical needs as cooking and having

enough to eat and this kind of thing--how do you manage this?

G: Well, my wife keeps them when I don't have them. See, I'm living with

my parents, and when they spend the weekendA they eat there.

I: I see. So you are living with your parents and they do help. They
have contact with both sets of families. Okay, that's good. Do you

anticipate living around here the rest of your life? Of course that's

a long ways...you might get a good offer tomorrow and you might not

G: Well, I kind of like it around here, wouldn't want to leave.

I: You call this home.

G: I stayed in California a couple of years, and I was glad to get away

and glad to get back.

I: What took you to California?

G: The Navy.

I: The Navy. How many years were you in the Navy?

G: For two years, -c '____

I: And all this time was in California?

G: Um-hmm. [affirmative

I: Leaving this area and going to California, I'm sure you saw some differences

in the style of life and living and so on...

G: Quite a bit.

I: Could you comment on this? How you found it to be, the adjustment

Cka-aets this kind of thing?

G: Well, the big adjustment out in California would be my accent. Even

though I was L by my accent and by the way I talked, you

know, nobody wanted to believe it.

I: Wouldn't believe that you had real...

LUM 101A 8

G: A high school education.

I: Well, I can feel empathy for you here, I've had four years of college

and it hasn't helped my accent much. I think when you're in a particular

area, the speech patterns kind of catch on and they're hard to...you

know, get rid of certain things that you consider...maybe it's not

standard or proper English as such. What other things did you encounter

that were different? Was it the fact that you were an Indian--was it

for you or against you as you went into other areas where there were

different races?

G: Well, they have a lot of Mexicans out there, Mexicans and Indians, and

everybody's a little more used to seeing a lot of themA ye-4ow. They

don't seem just quite as prejudiced. Now, when I went out west, they were...

they still had little white and colored things here like, you know, rest

rooms or movies. -Airrg here and going out west, you get...well, from

here to Texas, the colored would sit in the back- sen rear of the

bus. I'd always just sit up front even though they might stare at me

a bit, and wonder and try to figure out what I was.

I: But you didn't get any static. No one ever said anything?

G: No one ever said anything once you get out of Texas, all races

sit together, but from here to Texas, all the colored men would sit in

the back of the bus.

I: This side of Texas, the southern side or part...?

G: Well, I forget what part--it's such a big place. When we were coming

back, the same thing. When we were getting out of Texas, the colored

moved to the back. I came back about '61.

I: 61. Even though the Civil Rights Bill had come in and everything, it

still ldn't been implemented as such...

LUM 101A 9

G: not by a lot of things. They still had those colored

and white rest rooms.

I: Did you resent this? What was your feeling? How did your reactions...

if you can remember--try to recall.

G: Well, I always resented it. You know, once you lose sight? of

Robeson County, most Indians are treated as white, you know, even back

then. I've lived in Charlotte, and we were considered white, but around

here you're an Indian and treated as colored, mostly.

I: All right, do you feel that by living around here...what is it that holds

Indians back?

G: I think it's education more than being an Indian. Just education.

I: Lack of it?

G: Lack of it.

I: Is it the generation before us, before you, that has dropped us down...

kind of, you know, have we sort of inherited this attitude, or...?

G: Well, it's partly attitudebut mostly education. There's been a big

change in the past, well, about thirteen years. Since I got out of high

school there's been a big change... (in the amount of education I've

had...?) .

I: A change for the better for the Indians?

G: Right, a change for the better because, you know, the more education

the better things have to be.

I: So you see that to do away with prejudice toward the Indian or to help

the situation that education is the answer? Are you saying this?

G: It helps. It might not be the complete answer.

I: How did you get involved or how did you get into working this job

here--alcohol beverage control?

LUM 101A 10

G: Well, the three guys in charge of doing the hiring and I happen to be

good friends. I asked them to do an application and talked to them and

got the job.

I: And what are your hours here? About how many hours...?

G: I work forty hours a week.

I: Forty hours a week. And you carry...what is your school load? How

G: many hours?

G: I'm going full time now. Twelve hours.

I: Whew! That's pretty...do you find this pretty demanding on you as a...?

G: Well, I don't have any time off, don't seem like, besides Sunday.
/oA't krtxO L0 T.-^r-s-
I: Is there ever a time when you feel like you just...you edu; -rally _Q

o7 make it or you kind of feel like you're getting a little'bit ragged

around the edges, so to speak?

G: Feel kind of ragged, but I always like to think positive, you know,

instead of negative.

I: You don't ever think in terms of "well, I don't believe I'm gonna make


G: Uh-uh, [negative that's the wrong thing to do.

I: Then you're sure you're gonna complete four years, uh...?

G: As long as I work here and am able to go to school, I'll complete it.

You know, I'm going under the G.I. Bill, and they pay too good not to


I: Yeah. Well, that does help a lot when your income is supplemented.

Do you find that by going to school that you have any financial dif-

ficulty, you know, or strain on you? I mean, I'm not saying, perhaps,

that you live high on the hog, but are you able to live comfortably

without feeling too much strain?

LUM 101A 11

G: Yeah, I live pretty good considering the amount of money I throw away

on weekends.

I: Well, we all have to have...what do you do for recreation? I mean

i _for your own thing?

G: Well, I don't have really any time now, besides,,you know, going out

and having a few beers, go dancing a bit on weekends. That's the only

thing I have time for.

I: Where do you go dance? Where is a place to dance?

G: Uh, Fayetteville, South Carolina.

I: And what part of South Carolina?

G: There's a couple of places, you know, where they have live bands and

you can buy your beer there. There's no place around here where we

can get beer legally.

I: What is it about, uh...why is beer being held back in this county even

though we have an ABC store here? They will not...so far beer has not

come in. I know it's a matter of the legislature, but what is it?

The people can control this if they...

G: Yeah, You see, they had beer here about

twenty-three years ago. This county, the whole county had beer.

And they had a lot of, you know, shootings and fighting and killings,

and they finally moved it out.

I: Did they attributethe killings and all to the beer?

G: Yes, and they've been afraid of beer ever since--even though we've always

had beer, you know, bootleg beer--and they throwed beer out.

I: Do you think the ABC store has eliminated some of the bootlegging of

whiskey and so on?

G: Yes, it has.

LUMI101A 12

I: But do you still-.aware that we-still have some bootlegging around and

that kind of thing here in the county?

G: Well, there's quite a bi-. I'm a, you know, basically a beer drinker.

I know most all the boo eggers.

I: When you say bootlegger, is it beer or is it hard liquor as well--you

know, I'm talking about whiskey, bourbon, this kind>of thing.

G: Well, a lot of bootleggers, you know, sell what they call bonded liquor

like we sell here, but there's not much white whiskey--you know, like

they make out in the woods--like there used to be. It's hard to find

any of that, you know, like you could maybe five or ten years ago--you

could get it anywhere. Now that we have the ABC store you can come

in and buy a pint cheaper than buying what they call rotgut.

I: And it's not always...you know what you're getting isn't Clorox or

battery acid or whatever. So you would be in favor definitely of

alcohol beverage control:in most any place?

G: Well, I'd have to that's why I'm working here.

I: Well, sometimes we're, you know, liable to just put up with things maybe

that we don't always go along with, but it is your conviction. Is this

your conviction?

G: Well, I have nothing against drinking, as long as people act right. You

know, Indians have always had C- V\l-L of not acting right.

I: Well, do you find that liquor or beer is a problem more for the Indian

race than any other...?

G: No.

I: ...or is this just'something that's been attached to them.-you know the

old, uh...what is the old adage?

G: That's something they get out of the movies.

LUM- 101A 13

I: Crazy water and this kind of thing that the...

G: People that have never known Indians, the only thing they know or have

heard about is they're mean and like to drink and fight. ,
t4 etW has respect ,, .. They think they like to drink

and fight.

I: What kind of house do you live in? I mean...

G: I had a mobile home, but I gave it to my wife--my ex-wifer-and I live

with my parents.

I: to want to somebody with a comfortable


G: Well, my parents have always been kind of at least average upper-average

income. My mother taught school for thirty, thirty-five years.

I: Well, that's interesting. My mother's retiring this year on thirty-nine

years service.

G: Mine retired about two years ago.

I: And did we say what type of work your father does, or is he retiredztoo?

G: Well, he's semi-retired now. You see, we have a service station and a

cafe combined. We've had...well, we've had it thirty years.or better.

I: And where is this?

G: About three miles out of town.

I: What is it's name?

G: Service Station.

I: A small cafe, short orders, this kind of thing?

G: Just a little...anything, any type food, sandwiches place.

I; What direction is this in? I don't...

G: About three miles west of Pembroke. You maybe heard of (Ruay's Rest


LUMO 11A 14

I: Yeah.

G: That is the place.

I: .That is the place? Now, where does Rudy's...how does it fit in...the


G: Well, he's always rented the cafe from us for the past twenty years, (on

and off?) for twenty-five years. He's always been renting it.

I: Is you mother's name Mary, did you say?

G: Right, Mary Lee.

I: Mary Lee. I believe Mr. Barton, now, had an interview, or was supposed

to have an interview with her.

G: They're cousins, he's my uncle.

I: Is that right? Well, that's interesting. He probably would be happy to

learn that you've given us an interview. I'm sure he'd appreciate it.

How do you feel about marijuana? You know it getting pros and cons

and certain things. Could you see that it could be legalized in a way

somehow that's controlled, like we have alcohol beverage control? In

other words, you know, you have to be a certain age--what is the minimum

age before you can come in here and buyv l f?

G: Right now, it's twenty-one for liquor and beer. But it'll be about

eighteen-maybe sometime this year It's just

a matter of time.

I: In other words, it's in the...

G: The state (taktIs cart- of it.

I: But it's in the making of the legislature, you know that'it's going to

be lowered to eighteen?

G: Most other states have already lowered it.to eighteen or nineteen. It's

just a matter of time before they do it here.

LUM1 101A 15

I: Well, since you've been to California and these other places, you know,

where people may be a little more liberal-thinking than in a small town...

you know, people sometimes have a little more ad this kind

of thing. How do you see marijuana as being legalized, and I'm sure

you've talked to people without having, you know, direct experience

with it yourself. Some maintain it's a.little more dangerous than

alcohol, or not as dangerous. Could you see that it would be workable

to legalize it more,than it's not working nowT The way almost the

police are trying to enforce unenforceable laws, so to speak. As we

know, Prohibition didn't work,so, how do you feel aboutthis? Do you*

thihk it would be a good thing or a bad thing for society to legalize


G: All I know, you know, is what I've read or heard. I've never, you know,

smoked any, and I guess my being my age...

I: Did we establish yourrage? How old are you?

G: Thirty-one.

I: Thirty-one.

G: Now, if I were to be like some guy maybe young or something, I might try

it, but I couldn't try it being on the job. I'd be fired iflIkgotl:near

where anybody got caught with some

I: Right, it's hot now, but I was saying if it was legalized, would the...

the law seems so harsh if a person is, you know, caught even.with a

small amount of it.

G: Well see, I can't see any use for it. Beer gives me as good a kick as

I want. I use for marijuana.

I: How do you think it should be penaltied--stricter law enforcement, or what

would you say?

LUM.101A 16

G: Well, I can't say too much about it because I don't know anything about

it, you know. I don't know the effects of it or how it makes you:feel.

All I know is that I wouldn't want anything any stronger than beer myself.

I: Did you say you had to J0 o- ,'bov o( Any time you have to

interrrupt I can...

G: Well, I can, you know, keep my eye on it through the window here if it

ever gets crowded.

I: Okay. How do you find the rapport with the town and the college? Do you

find that there is a relationship that is compatible, or is it just a little

bit strained? How do you see this?

G: I think it's compatible,Amore so now than ten or twelve years ago.

I: And what accounts for this, do you think--this ____ we more


G: Well, I think, you know, we're taught about, you know, race relations.
eL- '4-t \-W&
-I remember a-time4 when I started college, you didn't have but a few

white boys dating Indian girls--and most of them, their parents wouldn't

let a white guy come there or Ig w k& be^ a white guy. But now,

it's quite a bit different.

I: How do you view this interracial dating and so on?

G: I think people should do what they want to do.

I: In other words, it'd be a matter of conscience up to the person

and how they feel. How do you feel about interracial marriages?

G: Well, that's-just up to the couple. If they want to get married, it's

okay with me.

I: Okay. We have much, you know, with women's lib and all this kind of thing,

and some of the things that they're pushing for certainly affect men--if

they want to think that it's hogwash or if they think it's a good thing or noT.

LUM. 11A 17

How do you feel about it? Is there any specific thing you can say that

women seem to be pushing for that you think is a little bit ridiculous


G: Well, I don't think women around here are, you know, really too involved

in women's lib--not like they might be in, you know, in some larger places.

I: Do you think they should be,perhaps, or not? Are you satisfied with the

way^women are?

G: Well, I-wasn't, you know, raised and taught that a woman's

got a certain place and a man's got a certain place.

I: If your wife worked and, you know, you were living together and everything,

and she worked and was helping contribute to the,-you know, income and

maintaining the home and so on, would you consider it beneath yetv to help

with housework, wash dishes,


G: Not really, I think a guy should help out with work if his wife's working.

He should help out with the homework.

I: Well, this is certainly a compatible attitude, I think.

G: Well, I'd rather, you know, be able to have a job where vf wife wouldn't

have to work.

I: You'd rather that she be maintaining...

G: Stay home with the kids and keep house, that's what I" rather. But it's

hard now, you know, for a guy to make a living by himself.

I: it's almost

G: Unless you're a doctor or lawyer.

I: Do you think ybur:wife would be happy in a situation if, you know,

stay at home? There's some .-1 this is what they want, and others

just find it very boring. In your particular circumstances...?

LUM 101A 18

G: I think the women that's been working for a few years might find it boring

to have to quit work and -go back home. But I think that women thathave

never, you know, had a job and had never...had always, you know, been around

home there, keeping kids or something, they wouldn't mind it as much.

I: I'll cut it..............................................................

I think to pick up, let's go to another question still concerning

University. How do you feel the rapport between the students and the faculty?

Are you able to talk to them, you know, feel that they're e~ u j

o n your side.? ? I know that some...you can get this feeling or

attitude sometimes in different ways. What's been your experience with this?

G: Well, the way I'm going to school; I don't spend any time on campus. I'm

usually there go there for class and I'll go there right on time

and I leave, and I never spend any time on campus with any of the other


I: When do you study, or are you the type of person that doesn't have to study?

G: I don't do very much.

I: You don't?

G: I don't have any time.

I: Well, how do you come out gradewise? Are you able to keep your average

up at least on a passing basis?

G: B's and C's so far.

I: That.'stpretty:good. And you don't study any at all hardly? With forty


G: Well, I try to take classes-that don't, you know, have a lot of studying


I: I think I met you in a sociology class one time \ Have

LUM 101A 19

you been taking this the whole semester?

G: Yes. I took a course first semester, too, and this is the second semester


I: Is this a requirement, that you take sociology courses, or is this something

that you've chosen as an elective?

G: Well, I had a...I signed up for a course back in 1960--1 started going on

my second year. I went about four weeks and quit e{ihou, intention

to drop out. By the way, I got an F in everything. And I'm taking courses

now that I got an F in, so I take them over to cancel that F.

I: Why did you not officially_drop out?: Was it OA_ ) i -tvsw t* ?

G: Well, at that time, I didn't know you had to. I wasn't...I didn't _t.j,-fL

that I was coming back to school. I quit, you know, to join the Navy,

and at that time I didn't think I would be coming back.

I: Did you get advisement on this? Have you seen


G: Well, I didn't really talk to anyone. I just signed up for three courses

and started back.

I: You're taking sociology now, and what other courses?

G: Psychology, English composition, and business law.

I: What type of psychology are you taking now? What course ?

G: It's just basic psychology. It's my first psychology course.

I: Probably be 101 then--Introduction ?

G: Yes, it's Introduction. I can't remember the number. I just found out

the second semester--the day when I got my report card--that I had gotten

F's in everything that I had, you know, taken before I dropped out. I

didn't know until the second semester.

I; Did this put you on academic probation, as such?

LUM- 101A 20

G: Yes, after I got...I got my report card, it said I made three

B's. It had on down below that I was ineligible to return. I hadn't e-A,_

4-, e-poC>Tt to tell me what all that meant. I had all those F's that I'd

gotten for quitting. _sJu_ _U I picked up three courses to take,

you know, to cancel those F's.

I: So you sort of did double work, then, but did you find what you first

took even though it was just a few weeks, that it was helpful, or had it

all escaped you? I mean, did you find that you retained any of it? That

was over a long period of time...

G: Well, I hadn't really been in school since 1960. I just started back

last year.

I: Did you find after being out of school a while that you went back with

some apprehension or maybe anxiety? Did you feel...?

G: I was wondering, you know, if I'd be able to, you know, pass or everything.

But I find it...I find that I can do better now that I'm older and, you

know, really want to. At the time I was going, I didn't really care.

I wouldn't really at my assignments, I'd just glance at


I: And .as a result you make probably better grades now. harder subjects.

G: I do quite a bit better now under harder subjects because I

know I need to., and I can see where I can benefit from it. But

just out of high school, I didn't _realize?_ .

I: It seems this is a problem with many people--even both sexes, girls and

boys--to come right straight out of college and...because again, most

of them, you know, aren't _

G: Well, I was undecided. I didn't know what I wanted to major in or I

didn't have any idea what I wanted to do.

LUM 101A 21

I: Would you advocate that maybe everybody should take two years off to

work or do something before they go to college?

G: I think it helps to, uh...

I: Do you think this...

G: ...you know, for a guy to get in service and come back and go. Because

that way, he's more mature and Uncle Sam will pay his way.

I: So, he benefits not only in maturity, but economically and monetarily

as well.

G: True.

I: Do you think this is a good program under the G.I. Bill?

G: I think it is. A lotiguys, you know, go back for the money, but if you

go to school, you can't help but learn something.

I: Do you enjoy learning?

G: Well, I've always enjoyed school. I didn't quit because I didn't enjoy

it. Well,-the first year I was passing, barely with C's and D's, and

the second year...well, I passed the first year, you know, I __dtu_( _d

SiMA. oC_ and the second year I found out was going

to be a little bit harder. And I knew I'd have to study and I wasn't

ready to study so I quit.

I: Did you find...well, you just said you didn't study, but if (you had

to?) have your study habits improved--you know more now how to go

about studying than.before?

G: Well, the way I study, I've always, you know, had the same study habits,

but, now I'm willing to study as much as I need to. I'm not trying to

make all A's, I just like to make B's and C's. Because when I'm working

I don't have the time to spend studying.

I: Do you feel that there's much pressure put on from outside forces or

LUM 101A 22

within yourself to make a grade? You know, you have to make it to stay

there. Once you were on academic probation, did you feel much pressure

the next semester--"well, I've got to make it, you know, so I can stay


G: Well, not really, because I'm (only going to g44-3 in my spare time

and I got a pretty fair job. I don't really feel I have a, you know,

great need to graduate now. When I got out of high school and was going,

I was (under pressure then from) my parents to make good. But now I

don't feel any pressure at all. If I make it, it's okay. If I don't

make it, it's okay. Since I've not been under pressure, Tmmi ae

I: Well, that's true, too. Perhaps that might be why that suicidejresearch

reports, is the second killer of college-age students--that they, you

know, come right out of high school.

G: A whole lot of pressure from their parents.

I: And particularly, studies have been made-- and took blood

samples t- Duke University--to determine disease patterns among the

Lumbee people, and they noticed a lot of nervous disorders and this

kind of thing. What would you say would contribute to this most? It's
d- Ae "-e<
not only young people, it's elderly people. Would. 4ian.suppression...

do you feel the Indian is held down? Certainly he has been, but is it...

from your own standpoint, do you feel any bitterness toward the fact of

your Indianness and how other people look at it?

G: Well, I always thought that our suicide rate was lower than either white

or colored (among the Indian population?) I think it's about one-

third here in Robeson County, you know, one-third white, black and Indian.

I: Well, we all (a) minority group. The Indian, I think, is in a minority

LUM- 101A 23

here in Robeson County. The blacks are a minority group, and also whites,

so this is really a unique county. I'm told this by the politicians

because they've, you know, taken the polls of theprecincts and things

like that. Are you in any way politically involved o AA -A ?

G: I don't mess with politics any at all.

I: You don't?

G: Well, I've tried it a little, but not very much.

I: Well, do you see the Robeson County Indians as a politically-minded group

of people?

G: Well, certain sections are.more politically-minded than, you know, some.

I: How do you determine the sections? I mean...

G: Oh, like Prospect, (Chapel?- Pembroke, and...you might have to

different sections, you know, Vk__different names.

I: How iU. this group that we named--you know, that go by the

name of Tuscarora--their behaviors and, you know, the way they're acting

now. As you understand it...you see ..what's your comments on this?

You know, they're a little more militant group than the ones)perhaps)

right in this local area, of most Robeson County _\ 4 '

SOTcc ( _H How do you see this? How do you

view it? Is it a good thinghor a bad or do you have mixed feelings?

G: Well, I think we should have been militant back in '59 or '60, along

there. southern whites and

southern blacks, we should have been militant then. I think it's too

late now for that.

I: Do you see any signs now, of this nature? "Right on!" and this kind of


G: No, not unless somebody just forgot to take down.

LUM. 101A 24

I: How do you _______ when you see this kind of thing? Certainly

there's discrimination. How did you learn to deal with this within your

own self without feeling a terrible bitterness and resentment?

G: It'd be kinda hard to describe. When you're young and your

live right around here in the county, like Lumberton

S\. Maybe a black ____...

I Then this is the only ones you saw because'this is where you were, that

they were all over.

G: around here have, you know, white and colored in

it. When it gets around here most Indians goes to white, or, you know,

eat at all the places white people eat.

I: In your estimation, what do you think...what is it that has brought the--

I don't know if it's the wrath or the opinions-that a lot of people have

about Indians? About the fact that they didn't at one time want you in

their restaurant or they didn't want you to drink at their water fountain

or use their rest room. It seems almost ridiculous and it's hard to com-

prehend that people could be so petty. What do you think, in your opinion,

is the reason for this?

G: Well, I think...well, not now, but back ten or fifteen years ago they con-

sidered all Indians dumb, ignorant, stupid...

I: Um-hmm, (as I said?) it ...

G: At one time I, well, I'd never known an educated colored person. So far

as I knew, most of them were dumb, cause I'd never been around any. The

ones I knew didn't have any education at all and, as far as I knew, all

of them were like that. Of course, I knew that in some large cities you

might have had some educated ones. I didn't know any around here even though

LUM 101A 25

I knew there was some, but we didn't, you know, associate with each other.

I figure the white people felt the same way about the Indians. 2 )J s'
-2--_------"~~`'-------_-------- *"- ------_.4
I: Well, what brought this revelation to you? ?Oq,/

Gt I guess education and being able to get from around here--you know, to -

live somewhere else. I guess at one time, being around here, you had A'0

maybe an inferiority complex or something about the way people would treat

you. But I came from around here and found out things are different. & A

You're just as good as anybody else. a \t j)

I: Would you think it would be a good thing for every Indian in Robeson c

County to sometime leave home and just go to another part...? A,"

G: I think everybody should... worthwhile to travel a little bit. '

I: And how, in your opinion, would you see this could be beneficial-to go

out of the area and return? How would you view this? I understand it,

but for the benefit or our listeners, how would you see that this would

be beneficial?

G: I think meeting people from all over the world--you know, live in the

North, East, South, or West. You find out that essentially all people

are alike, it's just the amount of education they have. I've met guys,

you know, to assume by their conversation you might think they were

college graduates. But really they were only in high school or tenth

grade. (Well?) you take a series of tests when you get in service,

and on our tests I did a little better than average on some things. That's

the only way they could tell I had an education. They couldn't tell by

the way I talked. I'd never been...

I: The speech patterns are not...we say that the way a person speaks, a lot

of times you can judge that way...

G: They judge your education by the way you speak.

LUM 101A 26

I: But we're recognizing now, I think, in the linguistic field and English

and so on that a person's dialect...sometimes you identify them. That's

part of their identity just as your eyes may be brown or blue or what-

have-you. And we're recognizing that it's not always wrong, it may be just

different, and dialects can be a beautiful thing. I believe that there's

people that work with the Southern and Northern...

G: Well, most people used to associate a Southern dialect with ignorance.

I: But we're seeing more and more even in entertainers--Andy Griffith, and

I can think of others--and people are coming out and speaking more in 44-

behalf of the Indians. For instance, I didn't know Oral Roberts was an

Indian until he had a special program for Indians. And Marlon Brando

refused the...what was it?

G: The Academy Award.

I: Yeah. What was the reason he did that? Do you remember?

G: Well, he said t A0 VO ,. I think there's some Indian _
out West. He wa^s.I=\
out West. He was side with the Indians.

I: And this is his way of saying that he disliked the treatment and he just dis-

regarded the Academy Award. Did you find this hard to...did you admire

him for this kind of action?

G: Well, I don't guess the popularity, it didn't hurt him any. I mean a

guy with his status could afford to turi down one, because he was already

well-known and it didn't hurt him any.

I: Just a minute, let me turn this.......................................

Do you feel that people that are well-known like in the entertainment field

and so on--the fact that they're coming out and saying, "I am Indian"--that

LUM L01A 27

this has made people that's so called, you know, around the world the common

man A in the entertainment business or something like this feel a sense of

pride in the fact that they are Indian?

G: Well, at one time the Indians didn't have a whole lot of pride about being

an Indian, but I think it's quite a bit different now.

I: Itseems they are prideful people. I have observed a lot in this area,

but do you...

G: I think they've always had pride, but they might not really show it or

act it. They've kept their pride kind of hidden.

I: Why was this necessary, do you feel? To hide your pride? (Cause it

hurt, maybe,?) or fear of 4xtt u rejection?

G: That would be kind of hard to say.

I: Well, maybe it wouldn't be any particular one thing, or could it be one

of them? An accumulation, of things, or what? ?

G: That would be hard to describe.



I: You come to work at what time

in the morning?

G: Nine o'clock.

I: And you work here how many hours a day?

G: Well, it varys,. Monday through Saturday. I work nine and a half one day

and maybe five another day.

I: Do you take most of your classes at night?

G: I take some at night and during the day.

I: Well, when you have a class, what do you do? Just walk out for that hour--

or whatever it takes, an hour and a half--and then come back in..T

LUM 101A 28

G: Well, I go to class two days a week, and those two days I'm not here but

about four hours on one of those days--go1 I'm off. (So there's really no?)

schedule to work with.

I: Well, ive seen people buckle under a schedule like you have, and going off

the deep end. But you don't seem rattled at all. You seem very calm,

and evidently you must get enough sleep, because after a while it does...

G: Oh, it doesn't affect my sleep any. Just (gets me?) long hours.

I: Yeah. Do you feel the Navy helped prepare you for the schedule that you're

carrying now and maybe to where you're able to ...?

G: No, not really.

I: Did you feel the Navy helped you in the maturing process at all? Or would

you have matured on your own anyway within this period of time?

G: I think the Navy and, you know, traveling--meeting other people.

I: Soa we can learn a lot from each other?

G: Right.

I: Each way, each person...

G: People from different parts of the country and all over the world.

I: ...has something to offer. Well now, I don't want you to think it would

be, uh, be afraid of offending me or anything, I'd like to know what you

think about this program. What was your reaction last night when I was

talking to some of the people in the class? Were you impressed with

the program, or did you think...?

G: Well, there are some things that are still kind of vague about it.

I: What is that? I mean, what do you want to know about?

G: About how they will use the ... students talking about how they

would code the material.

I: It's vague to me, too, inasmuch, I felt the frustration because I

LUM 101A 29

couldn't answer it all. You know, we agreed to talk

next time. L 't-mean-to those answers.
v \ 1. t., k -,"
I would like to be able, and I had (an appointment?-' for today,to

get a list of these answers and to send them to our director, Dr. Proctor,

and have him just, you know, answer them on tape.

G: Sounds like a pretty big job to me.

I: Well, perhaps it is a big job, and anything that'sworthwhile is a big job,

I guess. Do you feel that the program is worthwhile? Do you think that

it's contributing...I'm saying that it gets...the main aim is to get the

story of the Indian across, how he feels about himself

G: Well, you'd have to have a good

1: How do you feel about having a major in Indian Studiesithe way a person

can major in business? You know, have

to major in Indian Studies.

G: Well, I couldn't really see any advantage to having a major in Indian

Studies unless you'd want to teach (an Indian?) or, you know, go to

some reservation and teach. Now, you know, like you're gonna...

I: But then every group of Indians, as all people, they're different.

G: Right.

I: Do you think the Lumbee has it quite as bad as the rest of the Indians--

I'm speaking of the ones on the reservation--because...

G: Well, what I've heard, we're probably in better shape than all the other

tribes, you know. I mean, you know, speaking of the ratio of the amount

of people and everything. We probably have more educated people and

educated, you know, Indians in our tribe than some other tribes, you know.

I: Though we don't live as a tribe, do we? We sort of just ...

LUM Q101A 30

G: Everybody (that is?) lives around here. You know, one

of the main reasons why is this past three hundred years, maybe.

I: But it is a grouping together when it comes to the issues and government,

or the local government and 4-d like that, the university.

G: Sure.

I: September 22 has been considered American Indian Day. Many people around

here, you know, the community leaders and so on, would like to see this

a national holiday. Can you see any benefit to this? Perhaps devote that

day to your Indianness if you're in school, or maybe you'd talk about

Indians and what it means, just sit down and think about it.

G: You mean just a holiday for Indians alone and not for everybody?

I: No, make it a national holiday for everybody, because understanding and

realizing that the Indians were the first people here, and really we all

are indebted to them as to our survival and so on.

G: Well, I think it would make some of the other races a little, uh, a

little more familiar and up to date with Indian problems, you know,

trying to set aside a particular date.

I: A day maybe for studying, a group of people

thinking about, reading about...

G: Yeah, certain people never even think of an Indian unless they see one, or

read about him.

I: Yeah. And certainly there'd be publications, you know, coming out in Time,

in the leading magazines about...to inform people and to say these kind of

things. What I was thinking, not just sit down and say, "Well, I'm an

Indian, I'm not going to do anything today," but I'm talking about some-

thing constructive. Do you think, then, this would be a good thing to just

make people aware of...?

LUM. 101A 31

G: I think it would.

I: Well, I realize you are a busy man, and you've made a wonderful interview...

G: I wish I had more time.

I: By the way, how is business?

G: Always good.

I: It's always good. Well, that's the way you want it, isn't it?

G: Yeah.

I: Sometimes, uh...what's the best seller now in alcoholic beverages?

G: Nationally, it's Seagram's Seven.

I: This is a bourbon? I don't...

G: Yeah.

I: Okay.

G: But for this state it's Ancient Age.

I: Ancient Age?

G: in America, most states (would argue?) the best seller.

I: Ancient Age is a...?

G: Bourbon.

I: It's a bourbon, too. I asked something about drinking before. You don't

drink much of the hard liquor?

G: Well, if I go to a party or with a friend, I have a drink, but if they've

got a beer I'll, you know, stick with the beer sooner than have a drink.

I: What's your kind of beer that you like best?

G: Schlitz, best.

I: Well, I don't imagine you have too much time for

parties, but perhaps with your schedule you do need to party once in a

LUM 101A 32

while and forget about working and school. At this point, I want to

thank you very much for your contribution idnaking this tape and giving

us this interview, and, uh...

G: I'm glad I could help.

I: And it will be a help. Perhaps your children and even you will be able to

listen to it as we turn it back to our university here for the people of

the community to use as they see fit. And again let me thank you and

commend you. You are a remarkable person, I find. You must have a great

deal of stamina and I want to commend you on this and encourage you to keep

up the good work, because you seem to be a young man that has his feet well

on the ground but knows where he's going. So for that I say thank you and

I'd like to shake your hand.

G: Thank you.

5.\ TiocwJ4o0z^

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