Citation
Interview with Dobbin Matthews April 17 1973

Material Information

Title:
Interview with Dobbin Matthews April 17 1973
Creator:
Matthews, Bobbin ( Interviewee )
Language:
English

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Florida History ( local )
Lumbee Oral History Collection ( local )
Spatial Coverage:
Lumbee County (Fla.)

Notes

Funding:
This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

Record Information

Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management:
Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/.

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LUM 98A typist: SLW

Taylor interview w-
Dobbin Ashford Evans 4jir

4-17-73

T: My name is Marilyn Taylor. I am recording for the Doris Duke Founda-

tion, under the auspices of the University of Florida. Today's date

is April 17, 1973. I'm on the Pembroke State University campus and

with me is a student who has consented to, kindly to give us an inter-

view, of which we appreciate. .Would you tell us your full name

please and spell it?

E: My full name is Dobbin Ashford Evans Matthews. Dobbin's is D-o-b-b-i-n.

Ashford's A-s-h-f-o-r-d-. Evans, E-v-a-n-s. And Mathews' is M-a-t-t-h-e-w-s.

T: Any particular reason why you have all these names? There's:a four

there. Well, you have a last name, ummm, your mother must have had

some feelings about these names, or do you know?

E: Not really, just that ...well, the last three names are grandfather names

and the other name my father's.

T: Um, huh, so they are family names?

E: Yes.

T: Okay. How old are you?

E: Twenty-five.

T: Twenty-five? Alright, what is your major?

E: Sociology, with an emphasis on Personnel Management.

T: Personnel Management? What do you hope to go in, job-wise, when you

graduate?

E: Some type of social work, possibly.

T: I can buy that. Umm, what is your status here now?

E: Sophomore.








2

LUM 98A

T: Sophomore? Second ..., or which semester?

E: This semester.

T: This semester? Okay. Uh, do you live here on campus?

E: Yes.

T: I'm asking "yes" and "no" questions, and I want you to expound on them.

What, how do you find living here as compared to ... your home is where?

E: Fayetteville.

T: Fayetteville. Certainly it's a different way of life.

E: Yeah,but I'm used to it.

T: What difference do you see at Fayetteville compared to Pembroke?

E: Environment. Environment. People here are socially-wise don't really

get out as much as much as they do in Fayetteville.

T: Get out in what way?

E: Having a good time.

T: And waht is your idea of having a good time?

E: My idea of having a good time? Enjoying yourself.

T: In waht way?

E: In any way you feel.

T: I'm not trying to pin you down or get 0 you in a corner, I just want you

to be honest in your views.

E: To get loose.

T: Where do you go when you want to get loose?
depends
E: Well, it /- on who you're with where you go. I mean you know if you

have somebody that you ... if you feel like going bowling or going to

get .. stoned or whatever you feel like doing! I love to dance. Yeah,

I enjoy dancing, so I go dancing alot.

T: Um, huh, good, it's good therapy Are you interested

om sports in any way?







3

LUM 98A

E: Yes.

T: What's your hangup?

E: My hangup?' Karate.

T: Karate? And what's next? And I believe I'll end this interview now!

E: Boxing.

T: Boxing? You like to use your hands?

E: Yes, very much.

T: What the next sport down the line?

E: Basketball.

T: Do you have another?

E: Swimming.

T: Swimming?

E: Baseball, softball--any of it I.do.

T: Do you participate here on campus in any sports?

E: Well, I'm fixin' to start I think.

T: Um, huh.

T: How do you find the professors here?

E: I find some of the professors here a little rusty.

T: Rusty. What do you mean? They're not in with the times or just ...?

E: They're not in with the times. They're out of date.

T: What age would these professors be?

E: What age?

T: Um, huh. I'm saying, young, middle-age or ?

E: Around the forties.

T: Forties.

E: Forties and fifties.

T: What courses are you taking now?

E: Taking English, soc--, uh, not sociology but Western Civ., American

National Government, political science, speech, how many's that?








4

LUM 98A

T: I don't know.

E: Six all total.

T: So you're carrying what, three hours --- eighteen hours?

E: Eighteen.

T: And you participate in sports and you get a little dating in ?

E: Lot of dating.

T: Do you find that it's a pretty rough schedule?

E: Not really.

T: What's the easiest for you? I won't say a crip course 'cause I haven't

found one yet, but there are all kinds of things ...

E: History.

T: History? And any particular, you know, category--American or ...?

E: ... Western Civ.,

T: Probably have an Indian teaching that,...

E: Adolph Dial, know him?

T: Yes.

E: Mr. Adolph Dial.

T: Do Ofs you have him?

E: No, I don't.

T: You don't?

E: But I admire him very much.

T: In what way? And what reasons?

E: He's intelligent.

T: Why?

E: Because he stands on his own two feet.

T: Well, don't we all do that?

E: Yes.

T: But you mean that ..more or less among intellectuals?








5

LUM 98A

E: If he sees something he wants he goes out and gets it. That's what you

call pride.

T: Do you think ... do you find alot of pride here among the Lumbee people?

E: No. Oh, sure, some yes, some not, you find that in every race.

T: You say you live at the dorm--the boys' dorm, or do you live off-campus?

E: The boys' dorm.

T: Boys' dorm. So some of your hallmates, at least, if not a roommate,

would associate with the Lumbee people?

E: Yes.

T: What is the ? Does that include a or ...?

E: Well, it;s got like some of the guys in class are

Indians and'll go out to his house and have supper and stuff, you know,

with him and his wife and they, ... you know, to get a person to accept

you you've got to be able to understand them and they've got to under-

stand you you know, and show them that you're the same as they are.

T: Um, huh. t

E: If you can do that then you got problem.

T: Do you feel that the Indian people show a self-pity or a defeatist at-

titude? Have you seen this in any of the ...?

E: I just feel that the Indian people show a desire to be equal and be able to

have what other poeple have and it's harder for tem because they're in

a county that is really bad. It's not them, it's their environment.

T: Um, huh. How does a perSDt come of their environment? Just pull

yourself up by your own bootstraps.

E: It's the only way, I guess.

T: What about education? Do you see coming out of it?

E: Yes. It -






6


LUM 98 A


T: In what way?

E: To get in the system, you've got to join it. And the only way you can

join it is get to know people. The only way you can get to know ...

know people that can help you is to go to school.

T: In our society anyway.

E: That's it.

T: What makes you interested in counselling?

E: What makes me ... 'cause I hate to see people with problems and they're

afraid to ask for help, you know?

T: ()?

E: No, tell 'em like it is.

T: You hope they come to you for help?

E: If they don't I'll I go to them.

T: How would you propose to do this?

E: How would I propose to do it?

T: I think this is good; this is happening more every day



E: Just show an interest in people that's all.

T: Any particular age group that you interested in?

E: Young boys.

T: Young boys of what ...?

E: Undisciplined young boys.

T: Troubled... are you talking about ?

E: Troubled children.

T: Juveniles?

E: Yes, juveniles.

T: Have you taken any education courses?

E: No.







7

LUM 98A

T: ( ). Umm, you're

working off your requirements now in the field of sociology. Are

you taking any electives?

E: No, no I'm not work--, .. I took one course, Introduction to Sociology,

and that's it and I think at the end of this semester I'll have

fifty-some hours and I'll start taking some mortsociology courses next

semester.

T: I want to ask you to get back to the Indians now. When the Tuscarooras

were marching from Pembroke to Raleigh what was your reaction cto this?

E: Well, it was good. The more you speak the better.

T: They're a very militant group. Do you go along with this?

E: Yes.

T: Why?

E: 'Cause if you can't get it any other way you can fight for it.

T: po you believe that you always have to fight with your fists?

E: No. Fightin' with words is better. Like the great Martin Luther King did.



T: Do you see any analogy in the Black movement and the Red movement?

E: Yes.

Ti In what way?

E: The Red movement hates white people 'cause of what white people did to

them hundreds of ..a hundred years ago.

T: You mean taking away their land?

E: And they can't accept the fact that people like me and you who consider,

they consider white, they take out their harsh feelings towards people

like me whereas I didn't have anything to do with it and I assure you

that there's not one of those- Indians that were brought up any harder

than me. And if it weren't for my service background I wouldn't be in







8

LUM 98A

school today.

T: What branch of service were you in?

E: Air Force.

T: Air Force? How long?

E: Four years.

T: If it's not too personal is the Air Force helping with your college education?

E: Yeah, VA.

T:

E: No, have to hustle alot.

T: Do you get help from family perhaps?

E: No. Gamble.

T: Could you explain that? da g-r.:, yu ..., .ry day.

E: I love ... I love to shoot pool.

T: Life, life ... life is a gamble, you.know, every day.

E: I love to shoot pool, you know, odds and ends, you know, buyin' and

selling' and making a profit.

T" Um, huh. But I've always ... I was taught don't ever gamble because

unless you can afford to lose ...

E: _. Try to win. If you're good you won't ...if you're not

good, don't gamble. If you're good,gamble. Nothing to gamble with

S-- thoughX that's the I .

T: Who was it, Steve McQueen that played the ...you're not that good, are you?

E: Oh, the Hustler. No, uh, uh! No.

T: You don't equate your ...do you equate yourself with Steve Mcqueen?

E: No, hu, uh. But I ... want to. No, no, no, lady!

T: You going to be a professional gambler?

E: NO.







9

LUM 98A

T: Well, that's one way. You know, Billy Graham, he went into the bars to

convert people. Then you go into the poolhall to convince ... to

give 'em counsel.

E: Yes.

T: Do you think it might work?

E: That's the way to get it. I used to work in a pool room and there were a

few black kids coming in, you know, and they'd be from the areas

of town, you know, and they'd really hate white guys and stuff, you know, ..

T: I don't think we established if you are married or not.

E: No. I'm not married.

T: Do you go steady?

E: No, but I go!

T: I dpn't want to ask you questions that:seem too

personal, but I'd like to ask you this. What do you think of interracial

marriages?

E: ... I think of interracial marriages?

T: Um, huh.

E: Interracial marriages is great .nd.-f and / if ...

T: If you, say, met a black girl and it.clicked&.,. I mean, you know, if

interest were there and compatible in your ... you know, things of interest,

other than the fact that and this kind of

thing, how would you feel about that, how would your parents ... would

you be disowned? You can say "yes" or "no", but I want you to expound on

this. bu!

E: I would ...probably would be disowned that wouldn't matter to me,

because if, you know, if we were madly in love with each other, I wouldn't

care about anyone else but her 'to begin with.







10

LUM 98A

T: Um, huh.

E: Because in-laws is what usually breaks up marriages, that and financial

problems.

T: I'd say that financial problems was c:u and in-laws too. You've got it

pretty ... if you don't forget that, don't lose sight of it ...

E: Oh, I won't.

T: You don't think you will?

E: Um, huh.

T: Well, in sociologyou probably wouldn't ...it'll be drilled into you



E: Interracial marriages is great if it's intended for the purpose of love;

but for the purpose of humiliation and protest of the opposite race and

and you do it just because you're irritated with a certain type of

society, I think it's bad.

T: What do you think about trial marriages?

E: I think it's great.

T: Why?

E: 'Cause then once you get hooked, and it don't work, you can get out. I

mean, why live your life in unhappiness and torment, you know. You only

live once, you might as well enjoy it.

T: It's being practiced more and more and it's been contended by some of those

that have had unhappy marriages say that the only person that, that

benefits is the lawyers who pad their pockets. Do you think that in our

society today we could change society's attitudes to accept trial mar-

riages?

E: Well, if it continues there won't be such a thing as marriage.

T: You think thiS, why?







11

LUM 98A

E: Because at the 4 rate it's going out. Can you imagine ...how people would

have felt ...

T: Seems like we're already drifting back because you know George Wash'ngton

didn't marry Martha until they had about five children. Then he went to

the White House and they just somehow felt that maybe it was the thing

to do.

Et Proper thing to do. society.

T: In other words they had committed themselves to each other.

E: Yeah.

T: They were married in ... I believe the, some history account that I read

it said that he didn't see no need of going through all that tomfoolery

of walking down the aisle and saying a bunch of gushy stuff. Uh, if

marriage stays in, you know, the same little thing that they have about

"til death do us part", what do you think about that line in a marriage

ceremony?

E: What do you mean what do I think $/ about it?

T: Well, ...

E: Do you think it should be used or do you think it should be .. struck out

of ...

T: No. What you think. Do you think it should be used or do you think it

should be strike, uh, struck out? Do you think the people, you know,

really can ...here you, you've met a girl, say, last week and you feel

like she's about the sweetest thing on earth and it's going to be

"til death do us part", you know, at f that moment. But being realistic,



E: Not really, it's just something ...

T: ... that way. Does it soufd like a life s ntence to you?

E: Not really, no. It's just the point of expressing yourself to where







12

LUM 98A

you, something' nice to say.

T: What about "so long as both shall live"? ?

E: That sounds better, don't you think?

T: I don't know. I'm asking you. I don't think ...

E: Oh, I think it does. I agree with you on that.

T: Anyway, I agree that that's the way it is.

E: Well, that's the way it should be.

T: What about the line ...

E: A society still runs the country, you know,

T: But the young people can come on with a revolution and change the world. I

M mean ...

E: Yeah.

T: I'm talking about a social revolution and I can see this is the making.

And you have just, just touched on it, saying you don't think marriages

will be around. There will be ...union,

E: They won't unless there's a great change there won't. I mean it's great

to get married hut it's even greater to get out and if you don't dig it, right?
marriage
T: Yeah, I think, well, I think divorce is better than a bad.: ricd anytime.

E: And therefore if they can produce a way to get married and then if it don't

work out, you know, they're love died or something ...

T: Let me ask you this question. Say, you're living with a girl now, you know,

she's ... you're convinced that she's your life mate; you're not mar-

ried, but you have two kids. If I can put it so bluntly who's going to

care of teh bastards?

E: Who's going to take care of the bastards?

T: The illegitimate children.

E: Well, if I was willing enough to bring two kids in the world I'd be

willing enough to look after them.








13

LUM 98A

T: You'd feel a responsibility?

E: Yes.

T: Well, that's great so long ...for every life there should be a responsibility

for it.

E: Right.

T: And I think sometimes or do you think that sometimes maybe people try to

take the rights without the responsibilities?

E: Yes.

T: Do you feel, see yourself at any time in the future being married?

E: Yes.

T: Do you expect to marry a virgin?

E: I wouldn't marry a virgin.

T: Are you going to state why?

E: I'm too experienced virgin. I've had time to train 'em!

T: Well, how much training do they need? This is an interesting conversation,
is
and it will be ... about this/part of life, you know.

E:, Well, I usually tell the truth, so I'm telling the truth.

T: Right. I guess this ..h ask this question, I'm not just asking you, I

ask it of all students, girls and they guys. Do they want to be, you know,

they feel they'd be better having experienced ... .But only a

generation ago a guy wouldn't ... if she wasn't a virgin, that was

reason enough, you know, to mark her off.

E: That's 'cause he was taught that frm his parents. He didn't know any other

way.
/
TP Were you taught that?

E: No.

T: What were you taught?

E: What was I taught?







14

LUM 98A

T: um, huh.

E: I wasn't really taught anything. I learned all myself.

T: In the way of treating girls and

E: I'd rather not ...

T: You'd rather not go into that?

E: Well, I'll go into it.

T: Do you feel you're too ... it's too involved?

E: No, uh, uh, I feel like if you can get over, get over! I mean I'm not

trying to sound gross or anything, but I mean if you can enjoy yourself,

without having to face all the responsibilities, then do it. Unless

there's a reason there that would cause you to face the responsibility, for

instance, love.

T: Um, huh. Then you do believe in love?

E: Excuse me. Not love, love's not ... there's no such thing as love. I

think it's basically made up of a habit, if one partAgoes away.



T: You think that?

E: Yes.

T: What about the people ... POWs went away.

E: But they came back.

T: They came back. Did it wear off?

E: it was when they left. They came back because that's

what they had. It was the only thing they had when they came ba'k--their

family and this tradition that they come back to their family.

T: When were you discharged ffm the service?

E: Last May, the 9th.

T: How did you feel about our involvement in Vietnam?

E: I think we should H-a







15

LUM 98A

T: You do?

E: Yes.

T: Were you there?

E: Yes.

T: Did you bring back any pot with you?

E: No.

T: Did you experiment with any over there?

E: No.

T: Why?

E: I don't need it.

T: Why do you feel you don't need it? Don't you have a curiosity?
you know
E: Yeah, about certain things. I mean I've tried it once/just to see if it

was good or bad and it was alright and I prefer

T: I mean I'm not asking you the question to incriminate you. 'Cause after

all you were in another country so... you haven't done it here, I mean, I'm

sure because it's too hot and it's too dangerous and it's ...ridiculous,

really. But over there I'm told most of the boys that came back were

q hooked--really had a problem, you know.

E: Well, see, I wasn't over there that long. I spent three

years in Europe.

T: Um, huh.

E: I was only in Nam for about twenty days.

T: Um, huh. What did you see there?

E: I didn't see much.

T: The most impressionable thai you member.

E: Just behind time, you know--places so far behind time ---modern time.

T: Why do you feel that our country should send guys, fathers, guys who are

in their prime of their manhood over to get killed? to

fight somebody else's war.








16

LUM 98A

E: It's not somebody else's war.

T: Why?

E: 'Cause that's the same thing they said when Hitler was making his move

and Americans had to stop him. And if they hadn't we probably wouldn't

be here today.

T: Why do you feel ...?

E: 'Cause I'm sure he'd have done the same thing to us as he did to all those

Jews, if he had n't a been stopped.

T: You think so?

E: No, I'm just ...

T: I mean you're opinionizing.

E: Yes, yes.

T: Well, it's till a fact that

E: True.

T: To have done this.

E: But the Vietnamese are also

T: And how do you ... what do you base O# your opinion on? Like you know

observing or ...?

E: Life don't mean anything to Vietnamese or, or to foreign people in that

sense. Life is not a precious to them as it is to Americans.

T: Why?

E: 'Cause it just don't mean ... their religion, they don't have the religion,

they'don't ...

T: They don't have the inner resources?

E: Right.

T: Do you think they have anything to live for?

E: Not really.

T: Not really.







17

LUM 98A

E: Just to eat and take care

T: Not really. Their environment ...

E: Increase the population, that's about it.
source
T: In other words what's your saying is they're only / of ...outlet is

for sex?

E: No, no, uh, huh.

T: You're saying increase the population.

E: I'm saying their source of outlet is just to exist.

T: Um, huh.

E: At the lowest...

T: Did you find ... the twenty days you were there did you find a great deal

of guys on drugs?

E: No I didn't have any close relationships with anybody on drugs. But I

knew it was plentiful. If you want it you can get it. But anything bad

or good you can get it can be habit-forming. And it's up to you to

T: Do you think ... it's been determined that marijuana

and how do you feel?

E: I think anything's addictive if you use it constantly, for instance,
every
cigarettes. You can drink twenty glasses of water / day for two or three
then
months, I'm sure after that/you'd have to have 'bout that many the next

day.

T: So you're saying in the form of a habit.

E: Right. Everything's based on a habit. Either you do it or you don't.

T: Conditioned.

E: Right.

T: Conditioned. ....... How did you feel when you heard that the war was

over as far as our Vietnam involvement? Guys were coming home, this

kind of thing.








18

LUM 98A
ease
E: Well, it was a political war and it was just ended to 2l, the pressure

in Congress and stuff like this and the President, and it's not really

really over.

T: It's not?

E: No. I don't think so, not really.

T: Do you ... would you mind revealing your political affiliation?

E: Well, it was just put ... it's not over, it was just stopped.

T: What I'm saying ... do you believe in a two-party system? One party you

probably identify with more than

E: You megn, you're talking about Republican or Democrat? I believe in 'em.

T: Are you ... well, do you wish that our country, you know, health is for

the two-party system?

E: Well, it could be, but it's not. I think the country is under a police

state.

T: You do?

E: Yes.

T: What do you base your opinions on?

E: Because you can't do anything unless you get harassed by the police.

T: Um, huh.

E: And There's nobody perfect and therefore yo can't

help sometime to do something that you didn't intendV: to do, but yet

you have to pay tremendously for it. For mishap.

T: Such as ...?

E: Speeding tickets.'

T:

E: No, that's ...

T: Driving under the influence.







19

LUM 98A

E: Well, that shouldn't exist.

T: That's gone on but I saw in the paper where it was about .10 if you

if you smoke or whatever

E: I don't drink when I drive. I don't drink that much.

T: Well, you shouldn't either 'cause you might spill it. But it'a also

dangerous, too.

E: True.

T: To other peoples' lives, as well as your own. To wht extent do you

drink?

E: I don't drink maybe one beer a month.

T: Why?

E: 'Cause I think alot of myself and I don't want to ... hurt my body in

any -way or ...

T: Research has supported that suicide is the second highest killer

among college-age students. Now this is talking about guys from eighteen

to, you kjow, their ft late twenties, and girls. Would you care to

comment on this and why you think this is true? It's the second highest

killer, automobile wrecks are first.

E: Suicide is probably true. It's becausathey can't find themselves and

they just completely give up.

eliminate themselves.

T: What is it that's so hard about finding ourselves?

E: Being able to accept something and live with that and not striving for

something else and knowing you'll never receive it.

T: Such as ? I know, I mean, reaching for the moon knowing you'll never

get it but we can go there.

E: Such as for instance do ... not being able to do what you really want to

do. In other words if you enjoy, say, fishing every day, you know, are








20

LUM 98A

you willing to stop that to settle down and raise a family as society

expects you to do, if you're not, you're condemned because you're not

being like everybody else.

T: You'r not being a good husband



E: Well, there's not ... yeah, just simply not being able to know what you

want to do, that's all.

T: Do you think college helps you to do this or

E:Q Not really. The only thing college does is help you meet people.

T: The only thing?

E: No, you receive knowledge and the knowledge

you receive is up to you. And you learn the different environments of

the people around you, all types of stuff like this.

T: Why did you choose to come back to college? _experience

E: To get a job.

T: That's a definite ...

E: To get a job.

T: Did you find a job or unemployment, you know.

E: No, I ...

T: You just had your money and you wanted to come back to school?

E: Yes. See if I could do it.

T. Um, huh. Well, you kno you could do it.

E: I didn't know I could do it.

T: Why?

E: I'd never tried it.

T: What was your col--, you had ...

E: .. been out of school so long.







21

LUM 98A

T: These are, well, ...

E: Schools not like they used to be.

T: throwing research at you. I had to do a few research

papers. Umm, it's not like it used to be. These are the ones that

usually achieve the most, academically and on a social scale, you

know, being the leaders and so on.

E: True.

T: 'Cause they realize the need, I think. I was sort of a late bloomer

in coming back to college. I worked.. I had to work a while before

in the business world. And do you see

around here that most of the students are older in the sense that they'll
right
not/straight from high school? That we have some, yes, this way, but

do you see many students as older? Most of them I think are

E: Yeah, there's alot that's old--, you know, more than I expected would be

here, but ...

T: Um, huh. I know when I came I thought I'd be looked as like one of the



E: Well, they call me "old man", you know, ...

T: Right.

E: But they don't bother me.

T: No. Well, who calls you that

E: Mostly eighteen year old guys, you know, really appreciate me for some

reason. I don't know why. Guess I remind them of their daddy or some-

thing.

T: Do you put ... put the brakes on sometimes or intend to?

E: No, uh, huh.

T: Do you play it "buddy, buddy"? How do you answer them?

E: No.









22



T: Your relationship between you and younger guys, say.

E: I think it's good, it's good.

T: $ Do they have alot of questions about the war and your experiences?

E: Yeah.

T: And how do you ... do you have a girl in ... a fort in every girl?

'Course you might not have known

E: No.

T: Are you able to give advice on sex education and this kind of thing?

E: What were you referring to?

T: Just as friends. Do they come to you with .?

E: Yeah.

T: I find at the Reading CenterNI get questions o ... I've probably given

at least seven or eight books away on Reuben's Everything You Always

Wanted to Know about Sex and were Afraid to Ask.

SDid you read the book?

E: Yes.

T: What did you think about it?

E: I thought it was just a revised copy of other ones that have been written.

T: Have you read the book Jonathan Livingston Seagull?

E: No.

T: Are you familiar with it?

E: Yes, I'm going to read it.

T: Do you have access to a copy?

E: Well, I can get it, yes.

T: I highly recommend it. You ...have some of the Jonathan Livingston Seagull

in you. I can tell just from talking to you.

E: I don't know what you mean.








23

LUM 98A

T: You won't, but when you read the book, you will. You ... just remember, that

I said you have some Jonathan Livingston Seagull in you. Okay ? But you

should read it because you can read it probably in one :sitting. And uh, it

gets a little boring, the details. Have you ever flown?

E: Yes.

T: A plane.

E: Not flown. I don't like to fly.

T: You don't? But ... this is more abstract; it's ... you can almost take

i it leterally---seagulls fly. But in whatever you do, you want to fly high,

I. you know.

E: Yeah.

T: Do as well as we can.

E: Yes.

T: ..... an analogy f of what it is what he's talking about. It's a very

... after reading so many books of depth like Freud's Passions of the Mind

I think I finished that one, then I went to start Livingston Seagull

it was really a refreshing thing. Do you read much?

E: Yes.

T: Outside, I mean, that's not required.

E: Yes.

T: What are some of the books ...?

E: Time, Newsweek, newspaper.

T: Y Do you pick up novels much?

E: Yeah.

T: What are some of the ones that you've read?

E: Oh, let's see, I just finished one---The Fox, Summer Sisters.

T: That's about lesbianism.

E: Yeah.








24

LI 98A
S does
T: How / that strike you?

E: If you enjoy it do it.

T: How does it strike you from a male point of view---homosexuality ...

E: Oh, they have emotional problems, I think.

T: You do ?

E: Yes. No, I can't ... I backtrack that, I can't really say, I don't know

because I'm neither one so ... And I can't tell what their inner feelings are.
the
T: Well, you read/book and you got some impressions from it, didn't you ...

did you not?

E: Yes.

T: Then you do think they do J have what? ... Excuse for interrupting. Excuse

the interruption for the phone.

E: Yes.

T: You got some impressions about what causes lesbian--, lesbianism or homo-

sexual, you know, and this kind of thing. Does this thing gross you out

too bad?

E: No, nothing grosses me out.

T: Could you be friends with a homosexual and yet you know not ...

E: I couldn't be friendiwith him because me and him wouldn't think alike,

though, but I wouldn't put him down, you know.

T: You couldn't ... you read Playboy?

E: Yes.

T: Do you read Cosmopolitan?

E: No, I've read it, but I don't read it that much.

T: I think Cosmoploitan ...and do you go along with this, I'm asking,

advocates that you need one homosexual friend. Their reasoning is that they

can AUCK for you sometimes.

E: They can what?








25

LUM 98A

T: Buck for you sometimes in getting girls.

E: Oh. No, I don't have any problem getting girls.

T: So, you know, you wouldn't go along with this?

E: Well, some people might if they're help, if they're benefit to a person

that has problems in communicating with the opposite sex, then good. You

meed a homosexual friend. But if you don't have any problem, the only ^

person you need would be yourself.

T: Um, huh. If you had a professor that was a homosexual but yet very ef-

fective in the classroom would you put him down?

E: No.

T: You wouldn't?

E: His private life wouldn't interest me at all.

T: Could you say this about everybody?

E: Not really, they ...

T:

E: Well, I mean like if he was really an outstanding professor, you know,

and I learned alot from him, well, I would .. it'd only last so long, so

I'd just be willing to accept, accept his teaching and forget about the

rest.

T: Have we established ... you said you had a certain percentage of Cherokee

in your origin?

E: Not that much, but some. Somewhere, some way, some how, it got there, I

don't know how.

T: Was this from your mother or your i father's side?

E: My mother.

T: If you married an Indian girl what would your mother say?

E: She wouldn't say anything. She probably would but the only reason h she

would say it is because she thinks there's so ...there's enough for








26

LUM 98A

everybody's kind to go around.

T: Okay, now what ... did I establish how many brothers and sisters you have?

E: Nine.

T: What are their, you know, boys, girls,-

E: Five boys, five girls.

T: That comes to ten. So you make the tenth one. Where do you come in?

E: Uh, let's see. Third from the last, bottom.

T: Third from the bottom? So you had alot of brothers and sisters to look

up to?

E: Yeah.

T: Did you find this an advantage or disadvantage?

E: Disadvantage, no, an advantage.

T: Could it have been both?

E: Yeah.

T: What are some of the advantages?

E: Well, they learned me alot of things that I wouldn't have learned if

I didn't have a brother.

T: ).

E: Not really, 'cause they were out of the age range for me.

T: Um, huh.

E: They green, you know, money.

T: That helps.

E: Ha!
It's
T: / not everything. What do you see money ...what's money to you? I mean,

you know, it's a gateway to heavan or ...

E: No.

T: Buy everything ...

E: Just a form of trade, I guess.








27

LUM 98A

T: Do you hope to make a million dollars by the time you're thirty?

E: No, uh, uh.

T: Would you want to be a millionaire?

E: No.

T: If it was bestowed upon you by a great ...

E: Probably keep it a secret.

T: ... great person you'd probably keep it then couldn't you?

E: Yeah.

T: Why? Do you like to identify with what kind of life?

E: What kind of life?

T: Um, huh. Middle class or ?

E: Well, I don't want to be in a life to here I would be pressured into

being harassed because I, people would become jealous of me and stuff, you

know. I mean I wouldn't want to feel out of place because there are not

that many millionaires around.
if
T: Maybe/you / ...' give some of your money away.

E: Yeah.
?
T: Either that or buy property or .... And money can do this. I mean

dd you want to buy property or ...

E: No.

T: Why?

E: In certain, few cases it can for a short while, but I think your name

maybe mean more or your character means more than-money.

T: Having ... I feel a kindred spirit or something between your mother and

I don't know her, having raised ten children. She must be made out of

pretty good stock.

E: She is. She's fine.

T: And what did your father do for a living?








28

LUM 98A

E: About anything he could.

T: What was the extent of his education?

E: Third grade.

T: And what does he do now or what age is he?

E: He's sixty.

T: Sixty. So he's not retirement age yet.

E: No. But he will be shortly.

T: Is he in good health?

E: Yes. Fine health.

T: And your mother?

E: T FIne health.

T: Do they, if there's any help ...now if I'm getting too personal just cut

me off ...

E: No, no help at all. They've never / received any kind of help.

T: From the kids or anything?

E: No.

T: Do you ever get a panicky feeling about your financial situation?

E: No.

T: Do you find that your ...G. I. benefit covers most of your basic-needs?
Besides
-J what i{iA you're able to hustle 4?

E: No.

T: No?

E: Well, you might say it, I mean, for the present time, but, I mean, you

know, you can always use more.

T: Does it give you a basic security?

E: Not really. I don't look forward to it if that's what you're referring to.

T: What do you mean you don't look forward to it?

E: I mean I don't depend on it. I depend on myself more.








29

LUM 98A

though
T: If it was taken away/what would happen?

E: I'd gain it back in other ways.

T: You sound real resourceful .... word for that_. In-

genuity. Do you have much of that, do you think?

E: I really don't ... I don't know but I mean as far as the VA, I really

don't like it 'cause I don't like for anybody to give me anything, you

know. But since it's there and I can use it.

T: You've earned it.

E: I haven't really earned it.

T: You served your country.

E: Well, everyone serves their country.

T: Not really.

E: In a sense.

T: You didn't burn your draft card, did you?

E: I just thought about it.

T: Well, we all htink about it, but we don't follow suit.

E: No, I enjoyed myself.

T: Enjoyed yourself?

E: Very much.

T: What's the most significant thing --- your life in the service or
?

E: Growing up.

T: How long did it take you to grow up?

E: I'm still growing!

T: I know but sometimes your own experiences ... you grow up overn-ight.

E: No, the only thing that was ... no, just being able to go places and do

things that I never had a chance to do. MaY will have a chance to do.







30:

LUM 98A

This I did do in the service. Meeting alot of people and

learning how to communicate and act and approach people and if you see

something you want try for it, you know.

T: Umm, huh. Were you a model student '.,_ l______. ?

E: No.

T: ? What was your rank?

E: E-5.

T: And you were in how long?

E: Four years.

T:

E: That's as good as you can do.

T: You wasn't busted ....?

E: Never busted, never late for work.

T: Pretty good record.

E: But you should saw me sometimes when I came to work, wow !*!

No, I can't really say I was never late for work, but I never got in any

trouble or anything.

T: Are you saying, your, 0 your eyes may ?

E: Or my hands.

T: Youre nervous. Why?

E: Why?

T: Yeah.

E: Because your body can't stand but so much.

T: Did you 'live hard and fast good times or ?

E: No, I take it as it comes.

T:

E: I just took my time.

T: Have you ... is this sort of a way of life for you?

E: Not really I mean, 64 you know, it depends ... if there's a certain








31

LUM 98A

period of time to do something you can do it, you know, and if you have

your time to do whatever you like, and if there's alot of things you

have to get done you just do it if you're depending on doing something

else after you do that in a hurry so you can do the other one.

T: Do you find it easy to take orders?

E: Well, you had to for the service, didn't you?

E: Yeah, but that's why I got out.

T: Oh. Then you don't, don't find it easy.

E: No, it's not easy at all.

T: But you have to be a gollower in order to _?

E: True.

T: Do you think you could be a leader?

E: 'Cause some people are followers and our leaders that never follow us.

T: True.

E: That's a silver spoon I'm talking about. I'm sure you know what that is.

T" Yeah. You see yourself as a leader, your self concept, I think, don't

you?

E: Not really but I don't see myself as a spectator.

T: You're certainly a person that wants to be involved in whatever's

happening.

E: Taue.

T: Excuxe me, we're going to have to turn over here.

..... END SIDE 1./

SIDE II.

T: Okay, Dobbin, what do you ... I'm calling you Dobbin, what name do you

go by?

E: Dobbin.







32

T; Dobbin. I think we talked early, you mentioned your interest in

horses. What interesting experiences have you had with horses?

E: I like to ride, and I love animals.

T: What type horses? What other animals?

E: Dogs, cats, pigs.

T: What's the smartest animal?

D: What's the smartest animal? I would have to say ...dogs.

T: Dogs? Some of them are pretty smart.

D: Or chimpanzee.

T: Do you find horses 6 smart?

D: Yes.

T: Some of them say they're dumb, I think it's kind of

E: In their blood line really.

E Have you ever broken horses?

E: I tried it but they broke me!

T: I agree there. I had to fell an Apaloosa ... my
you
she broke me. Have ./ owned horses?

D: Yes, one.

T: How long ago has that been?

D: When I was a little boy.

T: And 6 you haven't ...

D: Couldn't afford it.

T: It's still a hang-up;;: you want a horse, _

D: Yeah, yeah, ... yeah.

T: How does leather ...you know, does leather turn you on?

D: I love fifty dollar boots.

T: Yeah, in all kinds ... styles and

D: Yeah, twelve dollar you know.

T: Yeah, do you have any ?

D; Yeah.

Ti YOu do?







33

LUM 98A

D: Yeah.

T: How did you get them?

D: Hustling.

T: You better explain this hustling. We're liable to have the FBI ...

D: They call it pimp!

T: Not really. Why don't you explain ... let's get this down here so

we don't have the FBI and the and Z all the people from Florida

coming up here wanting ...

D: No, you know, you just ...

T: to join PSU ... what do you call hustling?

D: Buying and selling and making a profit.

T: What do you mean buying ... ?

D: Anything from eggs ...

T: You don't deal in ... you don't deal in dope?

D: No. Anything against the law, don't bother.

T: It's strictly legal?

D: Strictly legal.

T: You deal in antiques?

D: No. I love antiques ... I'm a fanatic on antiques.

T: I've got a whole bunch of milk cans I'll sell you.

D: Really.

T: Yeah.

D: Good.
bar stools
T: You know, they're using them for 1/ and things.

D: Yeah. I had some of those old big wooden kegs, you know.

T: I got one but it's all ...

D: ... got a big one, I'm going to cut in half, in two, you know, and put

them together and then build a and line it with leather,







34

LUM 98A

you know.

T: Ummm making a chair. That kind of ... this is kinda antiqued kinda

like ... I'm a furniture buffer. Do you deal in this?

D:
I mean
T: / Take something old and ...

D: Yes, and we, we, we finish it ...

T: Cut it down and ..

D: I don't, I don't like to re--, to cut something down I'd

rather keep it as it is.

T:

T'. .... Do you have any other interests that I haven't

touched on?

D: Well, ...

T:

D: I love to paint.

T: What do you paint?

D: Anything.

T: What types of materials do you use? Oils, watercolors ...?

D: Oils.

T: P Oils. Do you lean more towards say, still life as opposed to land-

scapes or?

D: anything, you know, if I just see something I think looks

unique, then I'll remember it and paint it.

T: What about portraits?

D: Love portraits.

T: Have you done any art coursekhile you've been down ?

D: Not here, no.

T: Are you considering taking any?







35

LUM 98A

D: Possibly.

T: Have 'some ...

D: I need to.

T: You would enjoy it.

D: Yeah.

T: Don't you think? I took two or three, I think, just as electives.

And I can't draw at all. But the arts and crafts is why I enjoy it.
Seen
Umm, have you see anything around here that was aesthetic? /anything

aesthetically that, you know, might turn you on that you'd like to

paint? I'm talking about a building or ...
think I'd
D: Yeah, I / like to create huge painting of this entire campus. And

picture it late at night and the moon would be shining real bright

and it'd be raining and the swamp that used to be here before this

campus was built was taking over the entire campus. And the water

was up about half way towards the girls' dorms and stuff, and lights

would be= on and people would be jumping out in the water and stuff

and getting wet. And there'd be these huge monsters coming out of

the water and stuff and crawling on the buildings. I think it'd be

unique,

T: WOW! ... Have you got far enough into sociology to analyze your

paintings? Read anything from psychology or anything ...

D: Well, I'm taking a course in psychology now.

T: Could you analyze it?

D: Just something different. It'd be,,you know,-something to get the at-

tention of .. somebody's attention.

T:

D: ____________ nothing different, I'd turn it over and

then on the back I'd probably paint a picture of some gorgeous face, you








36

LUM 98A

know.

T: Um, huh. Well, there's something behind this monster ... this

creative urge whether you do it or not. I think there is.

D: Just ... I would just like to be different, you know.

T: Do you think you're an aggressive person?

D: Yes. Very much.

T: Perhaps aggression's coming out. And I'm not a psychologist so I'm

just rapping with you to, to see how you react toward ... and I'm

learning too. My ... my bug is people ;' or I wouldn't be doing this

forever.. Umm, let's see, sports and painting, horses,

animals--- I think you'd pre--, probably make a grand counselor be -

cause you have some therapy to offer for most anybody. Painting is

something that you could certainly do or use as therapy.

D: Well, I love to work on automobiles, you know.

T: Oh, do you really? I've got one that I dare you to touch,

that you cannot

D: What is it?

T: It's a '66 .What kind .i.. are you mechanically

inclined?

D: Yes.I took a course out at FTI for five months, then quit

and went in the service. My brother was a mechanic and I worked on

cars all my life.

T: I worked on cars all my life,too. I grew up with seven boys..

But it didn't, didn't help; those cars they had back then. Except

all I did was hold the screws and the nuts and the ... but it was lots of

fun. I can see ... do you mind=the dirt and the grime?

D: I can't stand for something to fall in my eyes.

T: I always liked ... I always liked to get, I always liked to get I dirty









37

LUM 98A

'cause it'd feel so good to get clean again.

D: Yeah. I don't like to get my hands dirty.

T: You don't?

D: No.

T: Why?

D: 'Cause grease gets under your fingernails and it's hard to get it out

if you're going somewhere special with someone special.

T: Have you ever thought about that there's dignity and honor in it?

D: True.

T: Soon you will have to understand these things. Sometimes if you

really like a thing you have to get it all over, you know, ...

have you ever heard this?

D: Yes.

T: And I think you're ... seem to be that type of person

Would you agree or disagree?

D: Agree. If you're going to do something, do it. Do it all the way.

T: Well, would you say the hell with dirt underneath:-your fingernails?

D: Yes. Not really, I mean I -ould ...

T: You would make an effort toward ...

D: Make an effort, yeah.

T: Does what other people think about you bother you?

D: No. Well, ...

T: S'pose they think you're a moron.

D: A mo-ron?

T: Does that botheryou?

D: No. 'Cause I know what I am.

T: Youre secure and you're self-confident, pretty secure.. You don't








38

LUM 98A

mind people challenging, I mean
T:
D: No./ In your ideas or ...?

D:

D: But I don't like them to touch me.

T: 'Fraid they'll convict you!

T: And what is wrong with the touch?

D:

T: Are you talking about touching in a violent sort of way or ...?

D: Yes, physically.

T: I don't understand.

D: I mean I could accept somebody talking to me, you know, who, you
cutting
know, /P me down or something, but well, words don't really mean that

much to me because you can just overlook it

T: You don't want me to smack you on the arm or anything like that.

D: If you're trying to ... if it's,.vou know, intentional ...

T: Um, huh.

D: No.

T: When you said, "touch," I thought it covered the whole spectrum. I

do know that you said you were artistic, I didn't know if you were

autistic ; this is a word where people can't bear to be touched, you

know, this kind of thing. I see there's a poem about that in ... are

you taking literature ?

D: Yeah, I write some poems and songs

T: You do?

D: Yeah.

T: Do you play any, instrue- -?

D: Play the harmonica, guitar and the piano.

T: What type of songs?








39

LUM 98A

D: Harmonica's for Western songs, you know, and blues. "Guitar's for

jazz and hard--, and rock. Piano, piano's for classical and standards

songs such as "All in the Game," and "Moon River," love songs.

T: You play ... do you play all these instruments?

D: Not that good, but I try.

T: Enough so that you can make a lead sheet?

D: That I can.do what?

T: Make a lead sheet. Write the music. Can you write the music? Or you

D: write the words?

D: No, by ear.

T: By ear? And you don't get the notes down?

D: No.

T: Have you tried to break into the field of entertainment?

D: No, I've always ... I love to sing.

T: You do?

D: Yes.

T: Do you belong to a glee club ?

D: No.

T: You ought to go ... not the glee club that's here; it's a course.

D:

T: Um, huh. What range of voice do you have?

D: What range?

T: Tenor, baritone, bass?

D: Probably bass. Or any range it doesn't matter. I can do tenor, bass,

baritone; alto.

T: What has been the& experience -of your sinl\i? And where?

DL Picking cotton : in the fields, you know.

T: .,-IE S6tLW T -









40

LUM 98A

D: Yeah.

T: Didn't you have church or anything like this?

D: Yes. We used to sing in church, me J and by sister, you know, when I

was little. Old time religion.

T: What is your religion?

D: I don't have one.

T: What did you grow up as?

D: Baptist, Baptist.

T: Free Will, or what?

D: Free Will.

T: .Are you acquainted with the religion?

D: Yes.

T: What do you think about it?

D: $ Well, there's people that worship the devil and there's people that

worship God, you know.

T: Do you believe in God?

D: Yes. I hope to. Got to believe in something.

T: You say you hope to?

D: I'm, I'm, it's hard to understand it, you know, like religion, you

can't even begin to talk on something like that because ...

T: Do you believe in .. that there is a power

call it what you will?

D: Call it what you will .... there may not be but there should be. It

seems like there would be. Whether or not there is.

T: You haven't felt anything,a feeling that there was a, wether it's called

a religious experience or not, just something that you know that some-

body 's there with you. Somebody up there likes you or something like









41

LUM 98A

this. Have you ever had a total feeling maybe out

in the meadow or under a tree or ?

D: Yeah.

T:

D: Um, huh.

T: Explain that to me, I mean, you know, was it a total feeling or ?

D: Well, you can imagine a lot .. : of things, you know, alot of people

imagine, you know, when they get out of the house, walking on the

beach or something, and ...that's hard, that's hard to describe 'cause

I, I don't usually need anybody, you know, to be i with, I don't

know unless it's physical.

T: Have you ever felt that you were at the end of yourself

? You'd gone as far as you could with it?

D: No.

T: You never thought that way?

D: Um, huh. I never let anything get the best of me. 'Cause that's where

we get a depressed nature.

T:

D: Pride. That old black staff sergeant that used to be my < idol when

I was A in the war.

T: Can you conceive of seeing god in people? In other words, or at least

Christian ethic ?

D: Yes.

T: This is the way sometimes that the ... you get your toughness or

your inner resources or whatever you want to call it. Whether we

believe that it comes direct from so-called God or ...

D: It's not called toughness, it's just called trying you know.







42

LUM 98A

T: It's called believing or faith.

D: Yeah, faith. Well, if you had faith, you know, it can lead to the

point of no return, you know, and then by chance it happens and then

also by chance it don't. .They say we didn't have enough faith.

If there's a Supreme Being I'm sure that he knows what I'm doing.

To create something like that. Me and you.

T:

D: .True.

T: Well, there's times when I have felt almost positive that I was ...

ending up there. But it don't.

And it works out. That's usually when I feel right at the end of the

cliff, you know. Hanging on to each little branch, you know.

Go ahead and fall, you know.

Have you ever had this experience?

D: Not really.

T: You're still self-confident?

D: Yes.

T: You've had people who mean' a great deal to you, your family,your
your
mother,. 1/father, your school; you're coming up against professors

who _, but you haven't really

had any ... do you feel you deserve any hard blows in life?

D: Yeah.

T: emotional ones

D: Yeah.

T: Could you expound on that or ?

D: Oh, well, I've lost, you know, friends; I lost a brother about two

years ago, he was and he got killed, really got killed
'bout
badly and he taught me/everything I know about life, you know. And






43

LUM 98A


me and him were close.

T: How was he ... ?

D: With a gun.

T: Was it accidental or on purpose?

D: On purpose.

T: Could you explain _in your mind.

D: He just got his head blown off.

T: Someone else did or he did.

D: Yeah, someone else And they got away free.

T: Did they?

D: Yeah- 'cause they didn't do anything with the man that done it.

T: Cculd'your tell me why?

D: 'Cause he said it was an accident but at point range, point blank

range with a 12 guage shotgun and buckshot. He was thirty-three years
he
old and/killed another man thirty- three years old. Impossible to be

an accident.

T: How old was your brother?

D: Thirty-three.

T: ?

D: Thirty-three.

T: And what was his ...did he talk with you

?

D: No, they were sitting around playing cards and drinking.

T: ?

D: Right. My brother was really ... hot-tempered, you know, and he

... I guess he probably '

T: We get accused of this bad "indian blood"sometimes. I don't know why

it is. It seems that people that, Indian-oriented, do have a tendency








44

LUM 98A

to But then everybody has got some sort of

secrets. If: you don't have a little bit, you're not worth a damn.

D:

T: You can't sit down and cry all your life. And ... then I can sit here

and hope that God will plan on giving me a million dollars, but ... and

he just might do it. You know. But I've got to get up

see to it too. So how did you deal with this death?

you know they're teaching courses now in college on death.

They call it

D: I had a ... I you know.

T: Is it over?

D: Yes, I guess.

T: Not completely?

D: Not really, I mean, it's over, but not forgotten, you know.

T: You probably won't ever get over it. You have to learn to live with it.

Unless you have

D: But he, but he ... he expects ... I know he would expect me to do some-

thing about it, you know.

TY Do you feel ?

D: Yes, I do.

T:

D: I know it, but ...,.you know I mean ...

T: 'cause then you know, you ...



D: But he would did it for me, you know, blood runs thicker than water.

But he'd a ... he'd a gave his life for me; he would;have died just

as same as me.

T: Two wrongs don't make a right.









45

LUM 98A

D: True. But he would have died defending me.

T: I know but that's not the point.

D: And that's the difference. That's right.

T: You're doing the very same thing ...would be doing the very same thing

that your brother.

D: Right. That's why I didn't do anything about it. 'Cause __

T: I have a contention just because unless I have to that just because

somebody else

D: That's right.

T: But ...

D: Well, it depends A at the time, see that ... that was my feeling.

T: ... point ...you did

T: The first time that was my point and right after that. And you would

have felt the same way.

T: I know.

D: And then later, you know, I just thought about the situation 4i and

you know, just let it vanish from

T: Well, knowing you lived your brother



D: Yes, Yes.

T: If you let the things, you know, get to your personality so much that

it disintegrates, you know, then you've lost



D: Oh, I'm still Dobbin, I'm really Dobbin.

T: you know,

D: As long as I'vergot-that..:name Dobbin ... !

T: Is that ... that's not ...is that your real name?








46

LUM 98A

D: Yes.

T: And what was your brother's name?

D: Bobby.

T: Bobby? give me the names of your brothers and

sisters.

D: Oh, god, really?

T: I'd like to know

D: Okayf let's see. Willia, Denton, ...

T: ?

D: no, Bobby Dean, ...

T: Girl?

D: My brother. JV, that's my brother, ...

T: Is that ?

D: Uh, huh. And Stella Ann, Luesta, and

Beulah Frances.

T: Unusual names. I like unusual names. REally I do. That's why I like to

have people

D: My mother's name was Beulah and she had three brothers,

Johnny and

T: That sounds real musical. You ought to write a song about that. A

novelty song. Have you had any ... well, you said you didn't ...

commercial



D: It's too much trouble. You know you got to be the besttto make money like
you know.
that. Just like in art,/ That's why I'm going to try to

T: There's alot of, there's alot of things

D: True.

T: What do you think i about "The Skunk in the Road" ?







47

LUM 98A

D: Well, I couldn't compare it with "First Time Ever I Saw Your Face,"

is that what you're referring to?

T: No, I mean that's the name of a song.

D: True, Right.

T: The man that or the guy that came out with that he, he just did it for

fun.

D: True.

T: He had no idea it would be ...released on the top Ten.

D: Well, it was just luck, you know.

T: Yeah. So you expect to go through a four year program ...?

D: I don't know, I might transfer.--

T: Where would you transfer?

D: To Florida.

T: And go to school?

D: Yes.

T: In Florida. ( ?

D: Possibly, I don't know.

T: And you have the ability to work in areas that you know, even they're using

poetry therapy now. Sit down and write me some, you know, it doesn't...

Rbd McKuen I mean it doesn't have to rhyme; it can

be free verse like

Poetry therapyT





SHow

many children did you say you expected to have?

D: I expect to have?

T: Um, huh.








48

LUM 984

D: When I'm married or something?

T: Yeah.

D: Probably three or four.

T: You don't believe in zero population?

D: No.

T: ?

D: No.

T: Why?

D: 'Cause .. I'd be afraid of ... I'V fraid of medicine and ...

T: Do you consider it a threat to manhood?

D: Yes.

T: I think you're probably right.



but it is a

going on now Some of the guys

You haven't seen any around here?

D: Yeah. Not here.

T: Is there anything else you'd like to talk about that I haven't

? Would you like to

the Indian community of Pembroke? Are you able

to communicate with the community?

D: Yes.

T: Outside the college.

D: Yes.

T: you know, off campus.

D: Yes.

T: Do you do any buying or ...?

D: Not really, I mean 'cause I don't really have time enough to do it.







49

LUM98A

T: You go home how often?

D: Every time I go home to get a good meal.

T: And most of the time you eat at the cafeteria?

D: No. Either that or eat alot.

T: What do you like to eat?

D: What do I.liketo-eat? Oh, let's see, about a 14 oz. medium rare ribeye

with a baked potato and a salad and something cold to drink.

T: Have you ever been to the ?

D: That's my- place.

T: That's probably where I've seen you! ... 'Cause I go there every time

I get a ... you know, I save up

Listen, Dobbin, it's been real great having this interview with you.

I'd like to say most of my interviewees tell me they enjoy it, but

I'm going to turn it around and tell you I enjoyed it. For the

sake of time. We're running out of tape.

D: Yeah, well, we should be.

T: And I do appreciate it and I'm sure that our listeners will find it not

only informative but interesting.

D: --- ...... after they hear this tape.

T: Well, I think it'll be interesting and informative. NOw you're going

to class and I'm going over to see Dr. or Mr. .

D: I'm going to the library to do a paper.

T: What is your paper on?

D: My paper? On English.

TY Well, let me cut the tape and again let me say thank you, and shake your

hand.

D: I don't shake hands. Thank you.

T: No. You don't?







50

LUM 98A

D: Huh, uh.

T: Well, t then let's slap ... Flip Wilson thing. You don't shake hands.

D: I wouldn't shake a lady's hand. No.

T: Well, that puts me down, but I'll accept it, okay?

D: It should put you up.

T Not really.

D: Really?

T: No. But anyway I'll say think you, okay?

D: Okay.


END OF TAPE.





Full Text

PAGE 1

LUM 98A Taylor interview Dobbin Ashford Evans M~{~i; 4-17-73 typist: SLW T: My name is Marilyn Taylor. I am recording for the Doris Duke Founda tion, under the auspices of the University of Florida. Today's date is April 17, 1973. I'm on the Pembroke State University campus and with me is a student who has consented to, kindly to give us an inter view, of which we appreciate •. Would you tell us your full name please and spell it? E: My full name is Dobbin Ashford Evans Matthews. Dobbin's is D-o-b-b-i-n. Ashford's A-s-h-f-o-r-d-. Evans, E-v-a-n-s. And Mathews' is M-a-t-t-h-e-w-s. T: Any particular reason why you have all these names? There's~c four there. Well, youhave a last name, unnnm, your mother must have had some feelings about these names, or do you know? E: Not really, just that well, the last three names are grandfather names and the other name my father's. T: Um, huh, so they are family names? E: Yes. T: Okay. How old are you? E: Twenty-five. T: Twenty-five? Alright, what is your major? E: Sociology, with an emphasis on Personnel Management. T: Personnel Management? What do you hope to go in, job-wise, when you graduate? E: Some type of social work, possibly. T: I can buy that. Umm, what is your status here now? E: Sophomore.

PAGE 2

~---------------------------2 LUM 98A T: Sophomore? Second , or which semester? E: This semester. T: This semester? Okay. Uh, do you live here on campus? E: Yes. T: I'm asking "yes" and "no" questions, and I want you to expound on them. What, how do you find living here as compared to your home is where? E: Fayetteville. T: Fayetteville. Certainly it's a different way of li~e. E: Yeah,but I'm used to it. T: What difference do you see.at Fayetteville compared to Pembroke? E: Environment. Environment. People here are socially-wise don't really get out as much as much as they do in Fayetteville. T: Get out in what way? E: Having a good time. T: And waht is your idea of having a good time? E: My idea of having a good time? Enjoying yourself. T: In waht way? E: In any way you feel. T: I'm not trying to pin you down or get~ you in a corner, I just want you to be hoJest in your views. E: To get loose. T: Where do you go when you want to get loose? depends E: Well, it , / . on who you' re with where you go. I mean you know if you T: have somebody that you if you feel like going bowling or going to get . stoned or whatever you feel like doing! I love to dance. Yeah, I enjoy dancing, so I go dancing alot. (l(,,U ,I l• ll t( Um, huh, good, it's _}good therapy I\ -------om sports in any way? Are you interested

PAGE 3

3 LUM 98A E: Yes. T: What's your hangup? E: My hangup?s Karate. T: Karate? And what's next? And I believe I'll end this interview now! E: Boxing. T: Boxing? You like to use your hands? E: Yes, very much. T: What the next sport down the line? E: Basketball. T: Do you have another? E : Swimming. T: Swimming? E: Baseball, softball--any of it I.do. T: Do you participate here on campus in any sports? E: Well, I'm fixin' to start I think. T: Um, huh. T: How do you find the professors here? E: I find some of the professors here a little rusty. T: Rusty. What do you mean? They're not in with the times or just ? E: They're not in with the times. They're out of date. T: What age would these professors be? E: What age? T: Um, huh. I'm saying, young, middle-age or? E: Around the forties. T: Forties. E: Forties and fifties. T: What courses are you taking now? E: Taking English, soc--, uh, not sociology but Western Civ., American National Government, political science, speech, how many's that?

PAGE 4

I l -LUM 98A T: I don't know. E: Six all total. 4 T: So you're carrying what, three hours --eighteen hours? E: Eighteen. T: And you participate in sports and you get a little dating in _____ ? E: Lot of dating. T: Do you find that it's a pretty rough schedule? E: Not really. T: What's the easiest for .you? I won't say a crip course 'cause I haven't found one yet, but there are all kinds of things E: History. T: History? And any particular, you know, category--American or ? E: Western Civ., T: Probably have an Indian teaching that, .• ; E: Adolph Dial, know him? T: Yes. E: Mr. Adolph Dial. T: Do~,~ you have him? E: No, I don't. T: You don' t? E: But I admire him very much. T: In what way? And what reasons? E: He's intelligent. T: Why? E: Because he stands on his own two feet. T: Well, don't we all do that? E: Yes. T: But you mean that •. more or less among intellectuals?

PAGE 5

5 LUM 98A E: If he sees something he wants he goes out and gets it. That's what you call pride. T: Do you think do you find alot of pride here among the Lumbee people? E: No. Oh, sure, some yes, some not, you find that in every race. T: You say you live at the dorm--the boys' dorm, or do you live off-campus? E: The boys' dorm. T: Boys' dorm. So some of your hallmates, at least, if not a roommate, would associate with the Lumbee ~eople? E: Yes. T: E: What is the ? Does that include a or .•. ? ------Well, it;s got like some of the guys in class are ----------Indians and'll go out to his house and have supper and stuff, you know, with him and his wife and they, you know, to get a person to accept you you've got to be able to ynderstand them and they've got to under stand you, you know, and show them that you're the same as they are. T: Um, huh. r,, ~)l....-4v~oJA E: If you can do that then you got *Yproblem. T: Do you feel that the Indian people show a self-pity or a defeatist at titude? Have you seen this in any of the ? E: I just feel that the Indian people show a desire to be equal and be able to have what other poeple have and it's harder for tern because they're in a county that is really bad. It's not them, it's their environment. T: Um, huh. How does a perSD~ come of their environment? Just pull "2 yourself up by your own bootstraps. E: It's the only way, I guess. T: What about education? Do you see ___________ _ coming out of it? E: Yes.

PAGE 6

6 LUM 98 A T: In what way? E: To get in the system, you've got to join it. And the only way you can join it is get to know people. The only way you can get to know... know people that can help you is to go to school. T: In our society anyway. E: That's it. T: What makes you interested in counselling? E: What makes me 'cause I hate to see people with problems and they're afraid to ask for help, you know? T: ( E: No, tell 'em like it is. T: You hope they come to you for help? E: If they don't I'll! go to them. T: How would you propose to do this? E: How would I propose to do it? )? T: I think this is good; this is happening more every day ________ _ E: Just show an interest in people that's all. T: Any particular age group that you interested in? E: Young boys. T: Young boys of what ? E: Undisciplined young boys. T: Troubled are you talking about? E: Troubled children. T: Juveniles? E: Yes, juveniles. T: Have you taken any education courses? E: No. ---~ ---------------------------------------------"

PAGE 7

7 LUM 98A T: ( __________________________ ). Unnn, you I re working off your requirements now in the field of sociology. Are you taking any electives? E: No, no I'm not work--, I took one course, Introduction to Sociology, and that's it and I think at the end of this semester I'll have fifty-some hours and I'll start taking some mon.sociology courses next semester. T: I want to ask you to get back to the Indians now. When the Tuscarooras were marching from Pembroke to Raleigh what was your reaction cto this? E: Well, it was good. The more you speak the better. T: They're n very militant group. Do you go along with this? E: Yes. T: Why? E: 'Cause if you can't get it any other way you can fight for it. T: ~o you believe that you always have to fight with your fists? E: No. Fightin 1 with words is better. Like the great Martin Luther King did. T: Do you see any analogy in the Black movement and the Red movement? E: Yes. T: In what way? E: The Red movement hates white people 'cause of what white people did to them hundreds of a hundred years ago, T: You mean taking away their land? E: And they can't accept the fact that people like me and you who cinsider, ' they consider white, they take out their harsh feelings towards people like me whereas I didn't have anything to do with it and I assure you that there's not one of thoseIndians that were brought up any harder than me. And if it weren't for my service background I wouldn't be in

PAGE 8

8 LUM 98A school today. T: What branch of service were you in? E: Air Force. T: Air Force? How long? E: Four years. T: If it's not too personal E: Yeah, VA. T: E: No, have to hustle alot. is the Air Force helping with your coltege education? T: Do you get help from family perhaps? E: No. Gamble. T: Could you explain that? E: I love ... I love to shoot pool. T: Life, life life is a gamble, you.know, every day. E: I love to shoot pool, you know, odds and ends, you know, buyin' and sellin 1 and making a profit. T 11 Um, huh. But I've always I was taught don't ever gamble because unless you can afford to lose E: 7Try to win. If you're good you won't if you're not good, don't gamble. If you're good/gamble. Nothing to gamble with thoughX, that I s the d;i~ T: Who was it, Steve McQueen that played the you're not that good, are you? E: Oh, the Hustler. No, uh, uh! No. T: You don't equate your do you equate yourself with Steve Mcqueen? E: No, hu, uh. But I want to. No, no, no, lady! T: You going to be a professional gambler? E: NO,

PAGE 9

9 LUM 98A T: Well, that's one way. You know, Billy Graham, he went into the bars to convert people. Then you go into the poolhall to convince to give 'em counsel. E: Yes. T: Do you think it might work? E: That's the way to get it. I used to work in a pool room and there were a few black kids coming in, you know, and they'd be from the ----areas of town, you know, and they'd really hate white guys and stuff, you know, T: I don't think we established if you are married or not. E: No. I 1 m not married. T: Do you go steady? E: No, but I go! T: ____________ . I dpn't want to ask you questions that;seem too personal, but I'd like to ask you this. What do you think of interracial marriages? E: I think of interracial marriages? T: Um, huh. E: Interracial marriages is great .-ind.if and / if T: If you, say, met a black girl and it.clicked~~,. I mean, you know, if interest were there and compatible in your ..• you know, things of interest, E: other tnari rue fact that and this kind of --------------thing, how would you feel about that, how would your parents would you be disowned? You can say 11 yes 11 or 11 no 11 , but I want you to expound on this. I would probably would ,;, be / disowned ~but that wouldn't matter to me, because if, you know, if we were madly in love with each other, I wouldn't care about anyone else but her : 0 to b~gin with.

PAGE 10

10 LUM 98A T: Um, huh. E: Because in-laws is what usually breaks up marriages, that and financial problems. T: I'd say that financial problems was c.,1,;(.; and in-laws too. You've got it pretty •.. if you don't forget that, don't lose sight of it E: Oh, I won't. T: You don't think you will? E: Um, huh. T: Well, in sociolog+ou probably wouldn't ... it'll be drilled into you __ _ E: Interracial marriages is great if it's intended for the purpose of love; but for the purpose of humiliation and protest of the opposite race and and you do it just because you're irritated with a certain type of: society, I think it's bad. T: What do you think about trial marriages? E: I think it's great. T: Why? E: 'Cause then once you get hooked, and it don't work, you can get out. I mean, why live your life in unhappiness and torment, you know. You only live once, you might as well enjoy it. T: It's being practiced more and more and it's been contended by some of those that have had unhappy marriages say that the only person that, that bene!fits is the lawyers who pad their pockets. Do you think that in our society today we could change society's attitudes to accept trial mar riages? E: Well, if it continues there won't be such a thing as marriage. T: You think thi<;, why? E:

PAGE 11

11 LUM 98A E: Because at the t rate it's going out. Can you imagine .•. how people would have felt T: Seems like we're,already drifting back because you know George Washngton didn't marry Martha until they had about five children. Then he went to the White House and they just somehow felt that maybe it was the thing to do. Proper thing to do. society. T: In other words they had committed themselves to each other. E: Yeah. T: They were married in I believe the, some history account that I read it said that he didn't see no need of going through all that tomfoolery of walking down the aisle and saying a bunch of gushy stuff. Uh, if marriage stays in, you know, the same little thing that they !:live about 11 til death do us p.-art", what do you think about that line in a marriage ceremony? E: What do you mean what do I think~/ about it? T: Well, E: Do you think it should be used or do you think it should be struck out of T: No. What you think. Do you think it should be used or do you think it should be strike, uh, struck out? Do you thmnk the people, you know, really can here you, you 1 ve met a girl, say, last week and you feel like she 1 s about the sweetest thing on earth~ and it's going to be 11 til death do us part 11 , you know, at y that moment. But being realistic, E: Not really, it 1 s just something T: ... that way. Does it souiid like a life s ntence to you? E: Not really, no. It's just the point of expressing yourself to where

PAGE 12

12 LUM 98A you, somethin' nice to say. T: What about "so long as both shall live"? _______________ ? E: That sounds better, don't you think? T: I don't know. I'm asking you. I don't think E: Oh, I think it does. I agree with you on that. T: Anyway, I agree that, that's the way it is. E: Well, that's the way it should be. T: What about the line E: A ---society still runs the country, you know, T: But the young people can come on with a revolution and change the world. I M mean E: Yeah. T: I'm talking about a social revolution and I can see this is the making. And you have just, just t9uched on it, saying you don't think marriages will be around. There will be union, E: They won't unless there's a great change there won't. I mean it's great to get married hut it's even greater to get out and if you don't dig it, right? marriage T: Yeah. I think, well, I think divorce is better than a bad-:-. /-: r c <1 anytime. /.. .:,~ E: f And therefore if they can produce a way to get married and theti if it don I t work out, you know, they're love died or something T: Let me ask you this question. Say, you're living with a girl now, you know, she's you're convinced that she's your life mate; you're not ~arried, but you have two kids. If I can put it so bluntly who's going to care of teh bastards? E: Who's going to take care of the bastards? T: The illegitimate children. E: Well, if I was willing enough to bring two kids in the world I'd be willing e1IDOugh .to look afttr them.

PAGE 13

LUM 98A T: You'd feel a responsibility? E: Yes. 13 T: Well, that's great so long for every life there should be a responsibility for it. E: Right. T: And I think sometimes or do you think that sometimes maybe people try to take the rights without the responsibilities? E: Yes. T: Do you feel, see yourself at any time in the future being married? E: Yes. T: Do you expect to marry a virgin? E: I wouldn't marry a virgin. T: Are you going to state why? E: I'm too experienced virgin. I've had time to train 'em! ---T: Well, how much training do they need? This is an interesting conversation, is E:, T: and it will be about this/part of life, you know. _W_e_l_l~,_I_u_s_u_a_l_l~y_t_e_l_l_t_h_e_t_r_uth, so I'm telling the truth. Right. I guess this ~I ask this question, I'm not just asking you, I ask it of all students, girls and they guys. Do they want to be, you know, they feel they'd be better having experienced But only a ----generation ago a guy wouldn't if she wasn't a virgin, that was reason enough, you know, to mark her off. E: That's 'cause he was taught that fnn his parents. He didn't know any other way,. T'. Were you taught that? E: No. T: What were you taught? E: What was I taught?

PAGE 14

14 LUM 98A T: um, huh. E: I wasn't really taught anything. I learned all myself. T: In the way of treating girls and ------E: I I d rather not .•. T: You'd rather not go into that? E: Well, I'll go into it. T: Do you feel you' re tgo it's too involved? E: No, uh, uh, I feel like if :/ou can get over, get over! I mean I'm not trying to sound gross or anything, but I mean if you can enjoy yourself, without having to face all the responsibilities, then do it. Unless there's a reason there that would cause you to face the responsibility, for instance, love. T: Um, huh. Then you do believe in love? E: Excuse me. Not love, love's not there's no such thing as love. I think it's basically made up of a habit. T: You think that? E: Yes. T: What about the people POWs '\'\rent away. E: But they came back. T: They came back. Did it wear off? if one part\goes away. E: it was when they left. They came back because that's what they had. It was the only thing they had when they came ba~k--their family and this tradition that they come back to their family. T: When were you discharged ffm the service? E: Last May, the 9th. T: E: How did you feel about our involvement in Vietnam? I think we should~~ Z ;,

PAGE 15

15 LtJM 98A T: You do? E: Yes. T: Were you there? E: Yes. T: Did you bring back any pot with you? E: No. T: Did you experinrent with any over there? E: No. T: Why? E: I don't need it. T: Why do you feel you don't need it? Don't you have a curiosity? you know E: Yeah, about certain things. I mean I've tried it once/just to see if it was good or bad and it was alright and I _,_p_r~e_f_e_r_-~------T: I mean I'm not asking you the question to incriminate you. 'Cause after all you were in another country so you haven't done it here, I mean, I'm sure because it's too hot and it's too dangerous and it's rldiculous, really. But over there I'm told most of the boys that came back were q hooked--really had a problem, you know. E: Well, see, I wasn't over there that long. I spent three years in Eur9pe. T: Um, huh. E: I was only in Nam for about twenty days. T: Um, huh. What did you see there? E: I didn't see much. T: The most impres~onable ----------tha\you tmember. E: Just behind time, you know--places so far behind time ---modern time. T: Why do you feel that our country should send guys, fathers, guys who are in their prime of their manhood over to get killed? to fight somebody else's war.

PAGE 16

LUM 98A E: It's not somebody else's war. T: Why? 16 E: 'Cause that's the sam~ thing they said when Hitler was making his move and Americans had to stop him. And if they hadn't we probably wouldn't be here today. T: Why do you feel ? E: 'Cause I'm sure he I d have done the same th:h,.g to us as he did to all those Jews, if he hadn't a been stopped. T: You think so? E: No, I'm just T: I mean you're opinionizing. E: Yes, yes. T: Well, it's till a fact that E: True. T: To have done this. ---------------------E: But the Vietnamese are also __ ..;_.. ___ _ T: And how do you what do you base~/ your opinion on? Like you know observing or ? E: Life don't mean anything to Vietnamese or, or to foreign people in that sense. Life is not a precious to them as it.is to Ame~icans. T: Why? E: 'Cause it just don't mean •.. their religion, they don't have the religion, they don~ t T: They don't have the inner resources? E: Right. T: Do you think they have anything to live for? E: Not really. T: Not really.

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17 LUM 98A E: Just to eat and take care -------T: Not really. Their environment E: Increase the population, that's about it. source T: In other words what's your saying is they're only / of outlet is for sex? E : No, . no uh, huh T: You're saying increase the population. E: I'm saying their source of outlet T: Um, huh. E: At the lowest .•. is just to exist. T: Did you find •.. the twenty days you were there did you find a great deal of guys on drugs? E: No I didn't have any close relationships with anybody on drugs. But I knew it was plentiful. If you want it you can get it. But anything bad or good you can get it can be habit-forming. And it's up to you to ----T: Do you think it's been determined that marijuana and how do you feel? ------------E: I think anything's addictive if you use it constantly, for instance, every cigarettes. You can drink twenty glasses of water/ day for two or three then months, I'm sure after that/you'd have to have 'bout that many the next day. T: So you're saying in the form of a habit. E: Right. Everything's based on a habit. Either you do it or you don't. T: Conditioned. E: Right. T: Condit i.oned. How did you feel when you heard that the war was over as far as , ,' our Vietnam involvement? Guys were coming home, this kind of thing.

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18 LUM 98A ease E: Well, it was a political war and it was just ended to ..:..-/....;. the pressure in Congress and stuff like this and the President, and it's not really really over. T: It's not? E: No. I don't think so, not really. T: Do you .•. would you mind revealing your political affiliation? E: Well, it was just put it's not over, it was just stopped. T: What I'm saying do you believe in a two-party system? One party you probably identify with more than -----E: You me~n, you're talking about Republican or Democrat? I believe in 'em. T: Is Are you well, do you wish that our country, you know, health is for the two-party system? E: Well, it could be, but it's not. I think the country is under a police state. T: You do? E: Yes. T: What do you base your opinions on? E: Because you can't do anythiDg unless you get har;tassed by the police. T: Um, huh. E: And ---------\I,# There's nobody perfect and therefore yo can't help sometime to do something that you didn't inteniL to do, but yet you have to pay tremendously for it. For mishap. T: Such as •.. ? E: Speeding tickets.' T: E: No, that's T: Driving under the influence.

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19 LUM 98A E: Well, that shouldn't exist. T: That's gone on but I saw in the paper where it was about .10 if you if you smoke or whatever ----E: I don't drink when I drive. I don't drink that much. T: Well, you shouldn't either 'cause you might spill it. But it'a also dangerous, too. E: True. T: To other peoples' lives, as well as your own. To wl:-a: extent do you drink? E: I don't drink maybe one beer a~ month. T: Why? E: 'Cause I think alot of myself and I don't want to hurt my body in any ,way or T: Research has supported that suicide is the second highest killer among college-age students. Now this is talking about guys from eighteen to, you kjow, their at late twenties, and girls. Would you care to connnent on this and why you think this is true? It's the second hightest killer, automobile wrecks are first. E: Suicide is probably true. It's becaus~they can't find themselves and they just completely give up. eliminate themselves. T: What is it that's so hard about finding oursebres? E: Being able to accept something and live with that and not striving for something else and knowing you'll never receive it. T: Such as? I know, I mean, reaching ~or the moon knowing you'll never get it but we can go there. E: Such as for instance do not being able to do what you really want to do. In other words if you enjoy, say, fishing every day, you know, are

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20 = LUM 98A you willing to stop that to settle down and raise a family as society expects you to do, if you're not, you're condemned because you're not being like everybody else. T: You'r not being a good husband -------------------E: Well, there's not yeah, just simply not being able to know what you want to do, that's all. T: Do you think college helps you to do this or ----------E: q Not really. The only thing college does is help you meet people. T: The only thing? E: No, you receive knowledge and ____________ the knowledge you receive is up to you. And you learn the different environments of the people around you, all types of stuff like this. T: Why did you choose to come back to college? E: To get a job. T: That's a definite E: To get a job. T: Did you find a job or unemployment, you know. E: No, I _______ experience __ _ T: You just had your money and you wanted to come back to school? E: Yes. See if I could do it. T: Um, huh. Well, you kno -you could do it. E: I didn't know I could do it. T: Why? E: I'd never tried it. T: What was your col--, you had E: •.. been out of school so long. .\_

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.. 21 LUM 98A T: These are, well, E: Schol3ls not like they used to be. T: throwing research at you. I had to do a few research ,' Umm, it's not like it used to be. ~These are the ones that papers. usually achieve the most, academically and on a social scale, you know, being the leaders and so on. E: True. T: 'Cause they realize the need, I think. I was sort of a late bloomer in coming back to college. I worked I had to work a while before in the business world. And do you see around here that most of the students are older in the sense that they 1 :e right not/straight from high school? That we have some, yes, this way, but do you see many students as older? Most of them I think are ----E: Yeah, there's alot that's old--, you know, more than I expected would be here, but T: Um, huh. I know when I came I thought I'd be looked as like one of the E: Well, they call me "old man", you know, T: Right. E: But they don't bother me. 'I T: Mo. Well, who calls you that' E: Mostly eighteen year old guys, you know, really appreciate me for some reason. I don't know why. Guess I rem~ind them of their daddy or some thing. T: Do you put put the brakes on sometimes or intend to? E: No, uh, huh. T: Do you play it "buddy, buddy:u7 How do you answer them? E: No.

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22 T: Your relationship oetween you and younger guys, say. E: I think it's good, it's good. T: i Do they have alot of questions about the war and your experiences? E: Yeah. T: And how do you do you have a girl in .•. a fort in every girl? 'Course you might not have known ---------E: No. T: Are you able to give advice on sex education and this kind of thing? E: What were you referring to? T: Just as friends. Do they come to you with ________ .? E: Yeah. T: I find at the Reading Center:I get questions o I've probably given at least seven or eight books away on Reuben's Everything You Always Wanted to Know about Sex and were Afraid to Ask. Did you read the book? E: Yes. T: What did you think about it? E: I thought it was just a revised copy of other ones that have been written. T: Have you read the book Jonathan Livingston Seagull? E: No. T: Are you familiar with it? E: Yes, I'm going to read it. T: Do you have access to a copy? E: Well, I can get it, yes. T: I highly recom:nend it. You have some of the Jonathan Livingston Seagull in you. I can tell just from talking to you. E: I don't know what you mean.

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23 LUM 98A T: You won't, bu~ when you read the book, you will. You just rememb~r, that I said you have some Jonathan Livingston Seagull in you. Okay? But you should read it because you can read it probably in onec,sitting. And uh, it gets a little boring, the details. Have you ever flown? E: Yes. T: A plane. E: Not flown. I don't like to fly. T: You don't? But this is more abstract; it's you can almost take i it leterally---seagulls fly. But in whatever you do, you want to fly high, I. you know. E: Yeah. T: Do as well as we can. E: Yes. T: an analogy f of what it is what he's talking about. It's a very ... after reading so many books of depth like Freud's Passions of the Mind I think I finished that one, then I went to start Livingston Seagull it was really a refreshing thing. Do you read much? E: Yes. T: Outside, I mean, that's not required. E: Yes. T: What are some of the books ? E: Time, Newsweek, newspaper. T: 1 Do you pick up novels much? E: Yeah. T: What are some of the ones that you've read? E: Oh, let's see, I just finished one---The Fox, Summer Sisters. T: That's about lesbianism. E: Yeah.

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24 does T: How / that strike you? E: If you enjoy it do it. T: How does it strike you from a male point of view---homosexuality E: Oh, they have emotional problems, I think. T: You do? E: Yes. No, I can't ... I backtrack that, I can't really say, I don't know because I'm neither one so And I can't tell what their inner feelings are. the T: Well, you read/book and you got some impressions from it, didn't you •.. did you not? E: Yes. T: Then you do think they do f have what? ..• Excuse for interrupting. Excuse the interruption for the phone. E: Yes. T: You got some impressions about what causes lesbian--, lesbianism or homo sexual, you know, and this kind of thing. Does this thing gross you out too bad? E: No, nothing grosses me out. T: Could you be friends with a homosexual and yet you know not ..• E: I couldn't be frient~ith him because me and him wouldn't think alike, though, but I wouldn't put him down, you know. T: You couldn't you read Playboy? E: Yes. T: Do you read Cosmopolitan? E: No, I've read it, but I don't read it that much. T: I think Cosmoploitan and do you go along with this, I'm . .ssking, advocates that you need one homosexual friend. Their reasoning is that they can /!ilJ Ci(., for you sometimes. E: They can what?

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25 LUM 98A T: Buck for you sometimes in getting girls. E: Oh. No, I don't have any problem getting girls. T: So, you know, you wouldn't go along with this? E: Well, some people might if they're help, if they're benefit to a person that has problems in communicating with the opposite sex, then good. You meed a homosexual friend! But if you don't have any problem, the only i person you need would be yourself. T: Um, huh. If you had a professor that was a homosexual but yet very ef fective in the classroom would you put him down? E: No. T: You wouldn't? E: His private life wouldn't interest me at all. T: Could you say this about everybody? E: Not really, they T: E: Well, I mean like if he was really an outstanding professor, you know, and I learned alot from him, well, I would .. it'd only last so long, so I'd just be willing to accept, accept his teaching and forget about the rest. T: Have we established you said you had a certain percentage of Cherokee in your origin? E: Not that much, but some. Somewhere, some way, some how, it got there, I don t know how. T: Was this from your mother or your i father's side? E: My mother. T: If you married an Indian girl what would your mother say? E: She wouldn't say anything. She probably would but the only reason w she would say it is because she thinks there's so there's enough for

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26 LUM 98A everybody's kind to go around. T: Okay, now what did I establish how many brothers and sisters you have? E: Nine. T: What are their, you know, boys, girls,-----E: Five boys, five girls. T: That comes to ten. So you make the tenth one. Where do you come in? E: Uh, let's see. Third from the last, bottom. T: Third from the bottom? So you had alot of brothers and sisters to look up to? E: Yeah. T: Did you find this an advantage or disadvantage? E: Disadvantage, no, an advantage. T: Could it have been both? E: Yeah. T: What are some of the advantages? E: Well, they learned me alot of things that I wouldn't have learned if I didn't have a brother. T: ( E: Not really, 'cause they were out of the age range for me. T: Um, huh. E: They green, you know, money. ---------------T: That helps. E: Ha! It's ) . T: / not everythingt. What do you see money what's money to you? I mean, you know, it's a gateway to heavan or E: No. T: Buy everything E: Just a form of trade, I guess.

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27 LUM 98A, T: Do you hope to make a million dollars by the time you're thirty? E: No, uh, uh. T: Would you want to be a millionaire? E: No. T: If it was bestowed upon you by a great E: Probably keep it a secret. T: great person you'd probably keep it then couldn't you? E: Yeah. T: Why? Do you like to identify with what kind of life? E: What kind of life? T: Um, huh. Middle class or ? ------------E: Well, I don't want to be in a life to where I would be pressured into being harrassed because I, people would become jealous of me and stuff, you know. I mean I wouldn't want to feel out of place because there are not that many millionaires around. if T: Maybe/you _,, .• 1 give some of your money away. E: Yeah. ? T: Either that or buy property or And money can do this. I mean do you want to buy property or E: No. T: Why? E: In certain, few cases it can for a short while, but I think your name maybe mean more or your character means more than:money. T: Having ..• I feel a kindred spirit or something between your mother and I don't know her, having raised ten children. She must be pretty good stock. E: She is. She's fine. T: And what did your father do for a living? made out of

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28 LUM 98A E: About anything he could. T: What was the extent of his education? E: Third grade. T: And what does he do now or what age is he? E: He's sixty. T: Sixty. So he's not retirement age yet. E: No. But he will be shortly. T: Is he in good health? E: Yes. Fine health. T: And your mother? E: r, Fine health. T: Do they, if there's any help now if I'm getting too personal just cut me off E: No, no help at all. They've never I received any kind of help. T: From the kids or anything? E: No. T: Do you ever get a panicky feeling about your financial situation? E: No. T: Do you find that your G. I. benefit covers most of your basic-needs? Besides ~i what ~~at you're able to hustle ~? E: No. T: No? E: Well, you might say it, I mean, for the present time, but, I mean, you know, you can always use more. T: Does it give you a basic security? E: Not really. I don't look forward to it if that's what you're referring to. T: What do y_ou mean you don't look forward to it? E: I mean I don't depend on it. I depend on myself more.

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29 LUM 98A though T: If it was taken away/what would happen? E: I'd gain it back in other ways. T: You sound real resourceful word for that _________ _ Ingenuity. Do you have much of that, do you think? E: I really don't I don't know but I mean as far as the VA, I really don't like it 'cause I don't like for anybody to give me anything, you know. But since it's there and I can use it. T: You've earned it. E: I haven't really earned it. T: You served your country. E: Well, everyone serves their country. T: Not really. E: In a sense. T: You didn't burn your draft card, did you? E: I just thought about it. T: Well, we all htink about it, but we don't follow suit. E: No, I enjoyed myself. T: Enjoyed yourself? E: Very much. T: What's the most significant thing --your life in the service or ______________ ? E: Growing up. T: How long did it take you to grow up? E: I'm still growing! T: I know but sometimes your own experiences ... you grow up overn-ight. E: No, the only thing that was ... no, just being able to go places and do things that I never had a chance to do. ~t:l.11 have a chance to do.

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30: LUM 98A T: This I did do in the service. Meeting alot of people and learning how to connnunicate and act and approach people and if you see something you want try for it, you know. Unnn, huh. Were you a model student ;~:.:..::..: ? ------------E: No. T: ? What was your rank? --------------------------E: E-5. T: And you were in how long? E: Four years. T: E: That's as good as you can do. T: You wasn't busted •... ? E: T: E: T: Never busted, never late for work. Pretty good record, But you shoulda saw me sometimes when I came to work, wow !,! No, I can't really say I was never late for work, but I never got in any trouble or anything. Are you saying, your,~ your eyes may ? --------------E: Or my hands. T: Youre nervous. Why? E: T: E: T: E: T: E: T: E: Why? Yeah. Because your body can't stand but so much. Did you 'live harud_.;:ia.uu.ud---Lf.ialaU::SU.t ______________ ,Qg~o~o~d'----"t ... im.w,,e""s'---"o'-'r_? No, I take it as it comes. ---------------------------------------I just took my time. Have you is this sort of a way of life for you? Not really, I mean, ~t you know, it depends if there's a certain ?

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31 LUM 98A period of time to do something you can do it, you know, and if you have your time to do whatever you like, and if there's alot of things you have to get done you just do it if you're depending on doing something else after you do that in a hurry so you can do the other one. T: Do you find it easy to take orders? E: Well, you had to for the service, didn't you? E: Yeah, but that's why I got out. T: Oh. Then you don't, don't find it easy. E: No, it's not easy at all. T: E: But you have to be a gollower in order to True. T: Do you think you could be a leader? ? -------E: 'Cause some people are followers and our leaders that never follow us. T: True. E: That's a silver spoon I'm talking about. I'm sure you know what that is. T" Yeah. You see yourself as a leader, your self concept, I think. don't you'! E: Not really but I don't see myself as a spectator. T: You're certainly a person that wants to be involved in whatever's happening. E: Tnue. T: Excuxe me, we're going to have to turn over here END SIDE 1./ SIDE II. T: Okay, Dobbin, what do you I'm calling you Dobbin, what name do you go by? E: Dobbin.

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32 T; Dobbin. I think we talked early, you mentioned your interest in ho~ses. What interest~ing experiences have you had with horses? E: I like to ride, and I love animals. T: What type horses? What other animals? E: Dogs, cats, pigs. T: What's the smartest animal? D: What's the smartest animal? I would have to say dogs. T: Dogs? Some of them are pretty smart. D: Or chimpanzee. T: Do you find horses~ smart? D: Yes. T: Some of them say they're dumb, I think it's kind of E: In their blood line really. r Have you ever broken horses? E: I tried it but they broke me! ---------T: I agree there. I had to fell an Apaloosa you ----my---she broke me. Have :I owned horses? D: Yes, one. T: How long ago has that been? D: When I was a little boy. T: And 0 you haven't •.. D: Couldn't afford it. T: It's still a hang-up; ;: you want a horse, D: Yeah, yeah, yeah. T: How does leather you know, does leather turn D: I love fifty dollar boots. ' ;:; . T: Yeah, in all kinds styles and ------D: Yeah, twelve dollar , you know. ----T: Yeah, do you have any ? ----D; Yeah. you on?

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LUM 98A D: Yeah. T: How did you get them? D: Hustling. 33 T: You better explain this hustling. We're liable to have the FBI D: They call it pimp! T: Not really. Why don't you explain, let's get this down here so D: we don't have the FBI and the coming up here wanting No, you know, you just and tall the people from Florida T: to join PSU what do you call hustling? -----------D: Buying and selling and making a profit. T: What do you mean buying ? D: Anything from eggs T: You don't deal in you don't deal in dope? D: No. Anything against the law, don't bother. T: D: It's strictly legal1_ Strictly legal. T: You deal in antiques? D: No. I love antiques I'm a fanatic on antiques. T: I've got a whole bunch of milk cans I'll sell you. -----D: Really. T: Yeah. D: Good. bar stools T: You know, they're using them for:,_/ and things. D: Yeah. I had some of thse old big wooden kegs, you know. T: I got one but it's all D: got a big one, I'm going to cut in half, in two, you know, and put them together and then build a ________ and line it with leather,

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34 LUM 98A you know. T: Ummm making a chair. That kind of this is kinda antiqued kinda like I'm a furniture buffer. Do you deal in this? D: I mean T: / Take something old and D: Yes, and we, we, we finish it T: Cut it down and ------D: I don't, I don't like to re--, to cut something down -----I'd rather keep it as it is. T: T Do you have any other interests that I haven't touched on? D: Well, T: D: I love to paint. T: What do you paint? D: Anything. T: What types of materials do you use? Oils, watercolors ? D: Oils. T: P Oils. Do you lean more towards say, still life as opposed to land scapes or? D: _____ anything, you know, if I just see something I think looks unique, then I'll remember it and paint it. T: What about portraits? D: Love portraits. T: Have you done any art course~hile you've been down _____ ? D: Not here, no. T: Are you considering taking any?

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35 LUM 98A D: Possibly. T: D: T: D: T: Have some I need to. You would enjoy it. Yeah. Don't you think? I took two or three, I think, just as electives. And I can't draw at all. But the arts and crafts is why I enjoy it. Seen Umm, have you see anything around here that was aesthetic? /anything aesthetically that, you know, might turn you on that you'd like to paint? I'm talking about a building or think I'd D: Yeah, Il like to creat~ huge painting of this entire campus. And T: picture it late at night and the moon would be shining real bright and it'd be raining and the swamp that used to be here before this campus was built was taking over the entire campus. And the water was up about half way towards the girls' dorms and stuff, and lights would be~-= on and people would be jumping out in the water and stuff and getting wet. And there'd be these huge monsters coming out of the water and stuff and crawling on the buildings. I think it'd be :unique,l WOW! Have you got far enough into sociology to analyze your paintings? Read anything from psycology or anything D: Well, I'm taking a course in psychology now. T: Could you analyze it? D: Just something different. It'd be,_you know,~something to get the at tention of somebody's attention. T: D: nothing different, I'd turn it over and ----------------then on the back I'd probably paint a picture of some gorgeous face, you

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36 LUM 98A know. T: Um, huh. Well, there's something behind this monster ..• this creative urge whether you do it or not. I think there : is. D: Just I would just like to be different, you know. T: Do you think you're an aggressive person? D: Yes. Very much. T: Perhaps aggression's coming out. And I'm not a psychologist so I'm just rapping with you to, to see how you react toward .•. and I'm learning too. My my bug is people ;' or ., I wouldn't be doing this ----~--forever~. Umm, let's see, sports and painting, horses, animals--I think you'd pre--, probably make a grand counselor be cause you have some therapy to offer for most anybody. Painting is something that you could certainly do .or use as therapy. D: Well, I love to work on automobiles, you know. T: D: T: D: I've got one that I dare you to touch, Oh, do I you really? that you cannot ----What is it? It's a '66 .What kind .i are you mechanically -------inclined? Yes.I took a course out at FTI for five months, then quit ----and went in the service. My brother was a mechanic and I worked on cars all my life. T: I worked on cars all my life, too. I grew up with , seven boys:. But it didn't, didn't help; those cars they had back then. Except all I did was hold the screws and the nuts and the but it was lots of fun. I can see do you mind=the dirt and the grime? D: I can't stand for something to fall in my eyes. T: I always liked ..• I always liked to get, I always liked to get I dirty

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37 LUM 98A 'cause it'd feel so good to get clean again. D: Yeah. I don't like to get my hands dirty. T: You don't? D: No. T: Why? D: 'Cause grease gets under your fingernails and it's hard to get it out if you're going somewhere special with someone special. T: Have you ever thought about that there's dignity and honor in it? D: True. T: Soon you will have to understand these things. Sometimes if you really like a thing you have to get it all over, you know, have you ever heard this? D: Yes. T: And I think you're seem to be that type of person ______ _ Would you agree or disagree? D: Agree. If you're going to do something, do it. Do it all the way. T: Well, would you say the hell with dirt underneath:-c-your fingernails? D: Yes. Not really, I mean I ~, 7 ould T: You would make an effort toward ... D: Make an effort, yeah. T: Does what other people think about you bother you? D: No. Well, .•. T: S'pose they think you're a moron. D: A mo-ron? T: ______________ Does that botheryou? D: No. 'Cause I know what I am. T: Youre secure and you're self-confident, pretty secure .• You don't

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38 LUM 98A mind people challenging, I mean -------T: D: No./ In your ideas or ? D: D: But I don't like them to toucg me. T: 'Fraid they'll convict you!. T: And what is wrong with the touch? D: T: D: T: D: Are you talking about touching in a violent sort of way or •.. ? Yes, physically._ I don't understand. I mean I could accept somebody talking to me, you know, who, you cutting know, f, f. me down or something, but well, words don't really mean that much to me because you can just overlook it T: You don't want me to smack you on the arm or anything like that. D: If you're trying to if it's,:vou know, intentional ... T: Um, huh. D: No. T: When you said, "touch," I thought it covered the whole spectrum. I do know that you said you were artistic, I didn't know if you were autistic this is a word where people can't bear to be touched, you know, this kind of thing. I see there's a poem about that in are you taking literature __________ ? D: Yeah, I write some poems and _s_o_n-g_s __ _ T: D: T: D: T: You do? Yeah. 'rl\fW\t Do you play any, instru~;_-7 Play the harmonica, guitar and the piano. What type of songs?

PAGE 39

39 LUM 98A D: Harmonica's for Western songs, you know, and blues. ~Guitar's for jazz and hard--, and rock. Piano, piano's for classicals and standards songs such as "All in the Game," and "Moon River," love songs. T: You play .•. do you play all these instruments? D: Not that good, but I try. T: Enough so that you can make a lead sheet? D: That I can.~do what? T: Make a lead sheet. Write the music. Can you write the music? Or you D: write the words? D: No, by ear. T: By ear? And you don't get the notes down? D: No. T: Have you tried to break into the field of entertainment? D: No, I've always I love to sing. T: You do? D: Yes. T: Do you belong to a glee club ? D: No. T: You ought to go .•. not the glee club that's here; it's a course. D: T: Um, huh. What range of voice do you have? D: What range? T: Tenor, baritone, bass? D: Probably bass. Or any range it doesn't matter. I can do tenor, bass, T: D:t. T: baritone; alto. What has been the-' experience 'of your''Si~'Y'j? Picking cotton .,:, ,, in the fields, you know. And where?

PAGE 40

40 LUM 98A D: Yeah. T: Didn't you have church or anything like this? D: Yes. We used to sing in church, me i and by sister, you know, when I was little. Old time religion. T: What is your religion? D: I don't have one. T: What did you grow up as? D: Baptist, Baptist. T: , Free Will, ------or what? ------D: Free Will. T: Are you acquainted with the D: Yes. T: What do you think about it? -----religion? D: g Well, there's people that worship the devil and there's people that worship God, you know. T: Do you believe in God? D: Yes. I hope to. Got to believe in something. T: You say you hope to? D: I'm, I'm, it's hard to understand it, you know, like religion, you can't even begin to talk on something like that because ... T: L Do you believe in . that there is a power ____________ _ -----call it what you will? D: Call it what you will there may not be but there should be. It seems like there would be. Whether or not there is. T: You haven't felt anything,a feeling that there was a, wether it's called a religious experience or not, just something that you know that some body's there with you. Somebody up there likes you or something like

PAGE 41

41 LUM 98A maybe out this. Have you ever had a total feeling in the meadow or under a tree or -----? ---------D: Yeah. T: D: Um, huh. T: Explain that to me, I mean, you know, was it a total feeling or? D: Well, you can imagine a lot of things, you know, alot of people imagine, you know, when they get out of the house, walking on the beach or something, and •.. that's hard, that's hard to descriee 'cause I, I don't usutally need anybody, you know, to be i with, I don't know unless it's physical. T: Have you ever felt that you were at the end of yourself ? You'd gone as far as you could with it? -------D: No. T: You never thought that way? D: Um, huh. I never let anything get the best of me. 'Cause that's where we get a depressed nature. T: D: Pride. That old black staff sergeant that used to be my~ idol when I was i in the war. T: Can you conceive of seeing god in people? In other words, or at least Christian ethic ? D: Yes. T: This is the way sometimes that the •.. you get your toughness or your inner resources or whatever you want to call it. Whether we believe that it comes direct from so-called God or D: It's not called toughness, it's just called trying , you know.

PAGE 42

42 LUM 98A T: It's called believing or faith. D: Yeah, faith. Well, if you had faith, you know, it can lead to the point of no return, you know, and then by chance it happens and then also by chance it don't. ,-They say we didn't have enough faith. If there's a Supreme Being I'm sure that He knows what I'm doing. To create something like that. Me and you. T: D: .True. -----------------T: We 11, there's times when I have felt almost positive that I was ending up there. _________________ But it don't. And it works out. That's usually when I feel right at the end of the cliff, you know. Hanging on to each little branch, you know. Go ahead and fall, you know. Have you ever had this experience? D: Not really. T: You're still self-confident? D: Yes. T: You've had people who mean a great deal to you, your family,your your mother,_, './father, your school; you're coming up against professors who _____________________ , but you haven't really had any do you feel you deserve any hard blows in life? D: Yeah. T: emotional ones ---------------------D: Yeah. T: Could you expound on that or ? ------------D: Oh, well, I've lost, you know, friends; I lost a brother about two years ago, he was and he got killed, really got killed -----,,-b-o_u_t ___ _ badly and he taught me/everything I know about life, you know. And

PAGE 43

43 LUM 98A me and him were close. T: How was he... ? ------D: With a gun. T: Was it accidental or on purpose? D: On purpose. T: Could you explain ----D: He just got his head blown off. T: Someone else did or he did. D: Yeah, someone else -----T: Did they? in your mind. And they got away free. D: Yeah'cause they didn't do anything with the man that done it. T: Cculd:,you' tell me why? D: 'Cause he said it was an accident but at point range, point blank range with a 12 guage shotgun and buckshot. He was thirty-three years he old and/killed another man thirtythree years old. Impossible to be an accident. T: How old was your i brother? D: Thirty-three. T: _____________ ? D: Thirty-three. T: And what was his did he talk with you ? -------------------------D: No, they were sitting around playing cards and drinking. T: ___________________ ? D: Right. My brother was really hot-tempered, you know, and he •.. I guess he probably ---------------T: We get accused of this bad "indian blood"sometimes. I don't know why it is. It seems that people that, Indian-oriented, do have a tendency

PAGE 44

44 Lill1 98A to _____________ But then everybody has got some sort of secrets. If:' you don't have a little bit, you' re not worth a damn. D: T: You can't sit down and cry all your life. And ... then I can sit here and hope that God will plan on giving me a million dollars, but ... and He just might do it. You know. But I've got to get up see to it , too. So how did you deal with this death? ______ you know they're teaching courses now in college on death. D: They call it I had a ..• I T: Is it over? D: Yes, I guess. T: Not completely? , you know. D: Not really, I mean, it's over, but not forgotten, you know, T: You probably won't ever get over it. You have to learn to live with it. Unless you have ------------D: But he, but he he expects I know he would expect me to do something about it, you know. Do you feel ? -------------D: Yes, I do. T: D: I know it, but ,.you know I mean T: 'cause then you know, you D: But he woulda did it for me, you know, blood runs thicker than water. But he'd a he'd a gave his life for me; he-would1have died just as same as me. T: Two wrongs don't make a right.

PAGE 45

45 LUM 98A D: True. But he would have died defending me .. T: I know but that's not the point. D: And that's the difference. That's right. T: You're doing the very same thing ..• would be doing the very same thing that your brother. --------D: Right. That's why I didn't do anything about it. 'Cause ----T: I have a contention just because unless I have to that just because somebody else D: That's right. T: But D: Well, it depends ~i at the time, see that ... that was my feeling. T: point ..• you did ------------------T: The first time that was my point and right after that. And you would have felt the same way. T: I know. D: And then later, you know, I just thought about the situation i' and you know, just let it vanish from T: D: T: D: T: D: T: Well, knowing you lived your brother Yes, Yes. If you let the things, you know, get to your personality so much that it disintegrates, you know, then you've lost ----------Oh, I'm still Dobbin, I'm really Dobbin. you know, As long as I 'vec"got'that. name Dobbin Is that ... that's not •.. is that your real name?

PAGE 46

46 LUM98A D: Yes. T: And what was your brother's name? D: Bobby. T: Bobby? ___________ give me the names of your brothers and sisters. D: Oh, god, really? T: I'd like to know ---------D: Okay~,,let's see. Willia, Denton, T: _________________ ? D: no, Bobby Dean, ... T: Girl? D: My brother. JV, that's my brother, ... . T: Is th9t __ .....:... ___ ? . D: Uh, huh. And Stella Ann, Beulah Frances. ______ , Luesta, ----, and T: Unusual names. I like unusual names. REally I do. That's why I like to have people --------------D: My mother's name was Beulah and she had three brothers, ---, Johnny and -------------T: That sounds real musical. You ought to write a song about that. A novelty song. Have you had any well, you said you didln't •.. commercial --------------------------D: It's too much trouble. You know you got to be the best~to make money like you know. that. Just like in art,/ That's why I'm ~g~o_i_n~g.__t_o_t_r~y __ t_o _______ _ T: There's alot of, there's alot of things _______________ _ D: True. T: What do you think r/, about "The Skunk in the Road" __________ ?

PAGE 47

47 LU}! 98A D: Well, I couldn't compare it with "First Time EvEB:" I Saw Your Face," is that what you're referring to? T: No, I mean that's the name of a song. D: True, Right. T: The man that or the guy that came out with that he, he just did it for fun. D: True. T: He had no idea it would be released on the fop Ten. D: Well, it was just luck, you know. T: Yeah. So you expect to go through a four year program ... ? D: I don't know, I might tran~fe't'. _ T: Where would you transfer? D: To Florida. T: And go to school? D: Yes. T: In Florida. ( ? -----------------------------D: Possibly, I don't know. T: And you have the ability to work in areas that you know, even they're using poetry therapy now. Sit down and write me some, you know, it doesn't .•. Rbd McKuen I mean it doesn't have to rhyme; it can be free verse like many chi~dren did you say you expected to have? D: I expect to have? T: Um, huh. Poetry therapyT How

PAGE 48

! I 48 LUM 9.8,ty T: D: T: D: T: D: T: D: T: D: When I'm married or something? Yeah. Probably three or four. You don't believe in zero population? No. ? ------------------------------No. Why? 'Cause •. I'd be afraid of I'n\afraid of medicine and De you consider it a threat to manhood? Yes. T: I think you're probably right. but it is a ---------------------going on now Some of the guys You haven't seen any around here? D: Yeah. Not here. T: Is there anything else you'd like to talk about that I haven't --? Would you like to -------------------------------the Indian community of Pembroke? Are you able to communicate with the community? D: Yes. T: Outside the college. D: Yes. 7 T: you know, off campus. D: Yes. T: Do you do any buying or •.. ? D: Not really, I mean 'cause I don't really have time enough to do it.

PAGE 49

49 LU}l98A T: You go home how often? D: Every time I go home to get a good meal. T: And most of the time you eat at the cafeteria? D: No. Either that or eat alot. T: What do you like to eat? D: What do I.like,,to-eat? Oh, let's see, about a 14 oz. medium rare ribeye with a baked potato and a salad and something cold to drink. T: Have you ever been to the ___________ ? D: That's myplace. T: That's probably where I've seen you: ... 'Cause I go there every time I get a •.. you know, I save up Listen, Dobbin, it's been real great having this interview with you. I'd like to say most of my interviewees tell me they enjoy it, but I'm going to turn it around and tell you I enjoyed it. For the sake of time. We're running out of tape. D: Yeah, well, we should be. T: And I do appreciate it and I'm sure that our listeners will find it not only informative but interesting. D: after they hear this tape. T: Well, I think it'll be interesting and informative. NOw you're going to class and I'w going over to see Dr. ______ or Mr. D: I'm going to the library to do a paper. T: D: T't What is your paper on? My pap;(er? On English. Well, let me cut the tape and again let me say thank you, and shake your hand. D: I don't shake hands. Thank you. T: No. You don't?

PAGE 50

50 LUM. 98A D: Huh, uh. T: Well, t then let's slap Flip Wilson thing. You don't shake hands. D: I wouldn't shake a lady's hand. No. T: Well, that puts me down, but I'll accept it, okay? D: It should put you up. T Not really. D: Really? T: No. But anyway I'll say thank you, okay? D: Okay. END OF TAPE,


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METS:structMap STRUCT1 physical
METS:div DMDID ADMID ORDER 0 main
PDIV1 1 Chapter
PAGE1 Page
METS:fptr FILEID
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STRUCT2 other
ODIV1 Main
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