Title: Interview with Ed Watkins (June 1, 1973)
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007082/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Ed Watkins (June 1, 1973)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: June 1, 1973
Spatial Coverage: Lumbee County (Fla.)
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00007082
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 95A

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Full Text


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and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of

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LUM 95A S. Wells, typist
Marilyn Taylor interview w/
Ed Watkins

T: My name is Marilyn Taylor. I'm recording for the Doris Duke

Foundation. I'm,at Pembroke State University at the Human

Services Center. Today is April 17, 1973. With me is Mr. Ed

Watkins, who is head of this center, and he has kindly consented

to give us an interview. Would you tell us your full name, sir?

W: My name is Edward D. Watkins)III.

T: The third. And what is your address?

W: My address is Box 91, Pembroke. I can't give you the exact street

address because we don't have a ... I live right across from the

college in the town of Pembroke.

T: Is that the College Terrace area?

W: No, it's on the other side of the tracks.

T: Oh, I see. I was thinking that you did. Let me ask you, are

you married?

W: Yes, I am.

T: Do you have children?

W: Yes, I have one child whoW three and a half years old.

T: Three and a half. Is your wife from around here or ...?

W: No, my wife is ... both of us are originally from Missouri.

And she ... we're both from Springfield, Missouri. And we

came out here to Jort Bragg about five years ago with the


T: You were in the military service?



W: I was an instructor at the John F. Kennedy Institute for Military

SAssistant- for two- years. With the Army.

T: Then perhaps you knew Mr. Courtner who is a Dean of Affairs, uh,

Student Affairs here?

W: Yes, I used to teach some classes for him at night school at N.C.


T: How did you get interested ... first of all, I want to as we

go into the work that you do here, -would like to know how

you became interested in human services and then explain to

us what it's all about. Because it's a general;-you know,`

phraseand it could cover a lot.

W: Well, initially, my concern was when I came here as a sociology

instructor my concern was that there was absolutely no op-

portunity for the student to get outside of the classroom.

All of the hours, for example, in sociology, I think this
0- a
is general criticism, would be general criticism at that time,

in other departments, all the departments outside the education

department. They did not offer opportunities for experience

wwih-learning for the student. So I began an attempt through

the Student Volunteers Association, I was a sponsor of that,

and set up experiences outside of the classroom for the students.

And we had around 150. This was e two and a half years

ago. And at that time we set up these experiences. We had

around 150 students out in the field,and I gave them the option

of either having a term paper or ;.. doing a:term paper, or

going out in the field and working with an agency.

LUM 95 A


T: Now you're speaking of just going out in the community?

W: Right. This is working with agencies. We had at that time

around eighteen agencies we worked with. And we divided the

students up as to their inteiSts which particular agency they'd

like to work with. Well, then on the basis of that, the re-

sponse that we had I instituted, I took to the department chairman,

sociology department, a list of courses which I was recommending.

which I recommended to be adopted, which allowed for field ex-

perience ead for academic credit. This was presented to the

curriculum committee and was adopted as recently as last year.

In the summer, in the summer we actually began this program.

Last summer. And at that time we worked with three agencies.

We had thirty people, ten per agency. The Department of Social

Services, Department of Housing, and the Department of Corrections.

We had thirty students out in these three agencies. We, be-

cause of the success of that, I believe, and last summer, the

Human Services Center was created by the university to broaden

the opportunities for more students and to allow more departments
for students
to use this service; to find experien lal opportunities/out

in the field. We worked with fifteen agencies the first semester
on/ contractual basis. We frkP 4lcjh 4CUjc vteML

contract. And then the second semester we, this particular

semester we're involved in now, we're working with thirty

agencies in the community and we have a contractual agreement

with all of these agencies. This is a contract between the



student and the agency and the faculty sponsor. At this point

we have five different departments involved in this process

and we have two hundred students.

T: Could you name the five different departments since you're going

to give us a brief explanation of what each one, you know, tries

to do.

W: Okay, okay. The sociology department is probably the most,

well, it's the most active in terms of the fact that now

the sociology department has three areas of speciality-)all of
them allowing/student- to get out in the field; medical

sociology, criminology, and social work. In all of those

components there is a field component, in all three of those

sections in the sociology department. In the education de-

partment we have taken on some students who are interested in ---

competency-based education is -t new thing in North Carolina.

And ...

T: This is a teacher program?

W: Right. The new teacher program. And this gives them some other

alternatives other than the traditional student teaching. So

we have some students from the education department. We also

have several students from the home economics department. And

we're dealing with them.A For example, the Department of

Social Services and Family Planning. We also have er workeA-
Social Services and Family Planning. We also have, -or work&


with/Guidance and Testing Center. And we, for example, we're

very proud, I just had a student come today who had been tested
pL1 G,
by the Guidance and Testing Center and had been sent over here to

volunteer to work in Probation. He's now hired with the De-

partment of Probation. And-Mr. j&t'the head of Guidance and

Testing tested him and recommended him on the basis of his

test scores and the fact that he had experience working through

us. So this is a matter of cooperation in between us.

T: That's great.

W: We have worked with the Media department also. And so these

are the, these are the departments that we basically work with.

T: Now the Media department for the benefit of our listeners

v1 y44k kvw4 son PO explain a little bit ...

W: Okay, the Media, actually, I say department, actually it's a

center, like the Human: Services Center, it's an auxiliary
service that has just been created/in the IAt year. The

Guidance and Testing Center, the Media Center, the Human

Services Center, the computer center. These services are new

at Pembrokeand basically whae, what they're trying to do

with these kinds of centers is provide, broaden the opportunities

for the students here. The Media Center in particular, the

Media Center inarticular, is involved with providing audio-visual

experiences for the students, hat have learning labs, And they

have a number of opportunities in terms of visual and audio



kinds of things available for the student.

T: FTis is remedial, is it not, in some cases?

W: Yes, in some cases, um, huh, it is remedial.

T: Do you find that there, I know you deal with all three races

that we have in Robeson County and all three are a minority

according to, you know, leaders and politicians;aR4 we're a

minority of whites and a minority of blacks and a minority

of Indians. Do you find that, do you use many ...the Lumbees

require much remedial work prior to going into these, their

majors or whatever they .- have selected to, you '..I know, study?

W: My experience has been and I'm not, I don't know if I'd be the

proper person to talk to ...

T: Well, this is just your opinion. That's what we want.

W: Yeah. My, my experience in terms of this safatioun the Lumbee

Indians have been quite willing to become involved in experiential

learning. Now it's just, this..is just my opinion, but I do feel

like that school systems and what-have-you being what they are

and coming into this school system, I think a Lumbee is at a

disadvantage in terms of intern phase into the school up

here at Pembroke.

T: Have you had any experience in observing or seeing any of the

school facilities in Robeson County or in this immediate area

that yaedeal with, you know, the Lumbees?

W: I've, I've observed, you know, very, very, .... I've had very

little ... little opportunity to do that.




W: But, but I would say this. It has been my general observation
the Lumbee student in terms of intern phase which involves

other students is at a disadvantage. But I think this is

important. I think that unfortunately they have been tested

only in traditionally oriented ways. I think they're extremely

interested, for example, and,,proven to be quite successful in

this, thus far in this experiential learning program. We have

a large number of Lumbee Indian students, percentage-wise,

in our group, that are in the field at this particular point.

And I think this is significant, Significant to the extent

that there's an alternative provided for them. There's some

more alternatives provided for them. We find some kids, for example,

who are not the best traditional type students. Many times

these people get frustrated. They find/ it's just extremely
frustrating for them to become involved in the process and they

drop out because these they're not provided with adequate

alternatives. This I think is an alternative, where if they
come in, they're tested, they find out -\ they can work in

this particular area, they become interested in their work

perhaps. This is an added incentive to them to continue th(r

studies, too. So I think it can be a, a real incentive to

them if they come into the experiencial learning program and

become interested in it. And I think their general work



overall can improve because they find other outlets. It is

frustrating to me to sea,-te see an educational system which

does not provide for alternatives for students.

T: In other words, if, you're damned if you do, and you're damned

if you don't. This is, this is ... at

least showing that you care a great deal. What are some of

the other benefits that you can see from this program

for not only the Lumbees, but certainly we deal with all the,

all, a number of students.

W: Well, we in particular, one of the things that, you know, we

haven't talked ef-is the extension program in the Human

Services concept. It's come out of our office. And that is

"a student-run operation. It's called Source. -Asn Source is

"a operation conducted by the students& we have a faculty consultant;

I'm the faculty advisor for this thing. -iwhat they do is

try to get out into the community. And it's more not just

through the agencies. You see our program the Human Services

up through this semester have been simply through working

with agencies. And we had the contracl'and what-have-you.
And-th the students are doing some programs of their own.

They're initiating, they're organizing their own programs. For

example, this Saturday U program. We've been servicing

between three and four hundred kids on different Saturdays



in the Saturday Youth program. And this was begun, initiated,

by our students in Source. Another program is a walk-in center.

It's daily, open every day in the town of Pembroke. And this

walk-in center was established and opened by our students.

T: Where is this located?

W: This is located at the Methodist church which is about a block

and a half from the campus here. And it's on the main street

of Pembroke and it's accessible to the people. We hads a

Senior citizens Day. The young people, Human Services Center,

and Source working together had a Senior Citizens Day. We

had over a hundred senior citizens come to the day's activities.

And we thought -- was quite successful.

T: There has always been the criticism

here and I won't say it at this point that there : has been a lack

of rapport or understanding between the institutions of the

gown and the town, so to speak. And it seems to me this is

bringing the cooperation of both the institutions of the college

and the community working together. You -are working really

for better human relations than just

W: I think so.

T: Or have you seen this?

W: No, I, I think I've seen, I've seen a lot of change happen since

I've been involved personally with this program. And I,

I've, it's been very gratifying to me. I think I live, I



4$idnkt--use to live in Pembroke; I now live in Pembroke and I

feel _lk_ o) I'm a part of the community V now. And

I feel good about this. I feel it's been helpful to me in terms

of working in the area. I, one of the most frustrating things

to me is the fact t' I think that there should be in the

town of Pembroke and I'm working toward that, I don't know if

it'll ever become a reality, I hope it will some day, I'd

like to see a cultural center established in the town of

Pembroke. In the town of Pembroke. And this cultural

center, community center, that is what I have in mind, a com-

munity center in which services like Boy Scouts and youth

programs and senior programs and what-have-you can coordinated

right through this center. Now this is my, this is my concern.

You know, really working toward that end. I don't know how

it would be accomplished. Someday maybe there will be some

opportunity for this to happen.

T: Well, your frustration is good as long as it stays up because

you'll work on it.

W: Right. With the church thingI think this is just a start. Some-

thing that we think, see, we're serving as kind of an information

referral service through this, through the church. And we

think that this thing is going to grow. And we think it's just
like the Human Services Center and Source and4Saturday program,

the Senior program, what-have-you, the walk-in center. We

think that this is going to be something which is going to



gradually grow until perhaps we can turn on enough people

to establish tis, this community center. The frustrating thing

to me, one of the most frustrating things to me is to walk out

in downtown J Pembroke on Sunday afternoon and realize that the

real source of entertainment and the mal source of any kind

of activity on Sunday is riding up and down the main street of

Pembroke. It's very difficult to cross the street.


W: Right. That is, right, and standing up there and ... .This is

the thing. I don't know what the statistics are in terms of

crime and what-have you. Alot of people ...

T: It's high in this county.

W: Right. Yeah.

T: And that's probably one of the reasons. There's nothing constructive

to do.

W: Well, I think it's, I think it very definitely is a reason and eXLA^

would be a tremendous factor in it because the studies have

indicated that this is the case. That iAterms of crime that

when person is not given some productive outlets, constructive

avenues/to participate, then that person Vay turn to just about

anything. I mean, drugs or crime or what-have-you. I think in

this, in the town of Pembroke, my real -concern ...

T: Out of pure boredom. I mean, you gotta do something.

W: Sure. Sure. Sure. And I think in the town of Pembroke, for

example, I remember when I grew up in a small town, and we didn't



really didn't have ilot and it was the same thing. Some people

would say, well, this, you know, this is the Indians.

T: Um, huh.

W: I, I would, I would, I would say this is ridiculous to say this

had anything to do with the fact that they Rany particular race.

Experiences I've had in courses of study that I'm familiar with

indicate that this is, this is a common problem. because of

lack of activity .his is also a low socio-economic area. So these

things are all, all of these factors, all these factors

wi-1 be involved in that particular in the results, resultant

condition of increased crime rate in this, in this particular


T: Well, certainly what we know, and it's ot official

I think we've had some thirty one arsons or fires that's been

officially established as from arson. That was last week, or two

or three weeks ago. And it was

you know, way down low on the educational and the pay scale.

They're not educated enough to hold down a job. It's just

frustration And they call themselves the Tuscaro ras.

I'm sure you're familiar with them. Have you had any dealings

with them through the center here?

W: Not that I kn ow of. I don't really ... you know, I think ...

T: I think( are's some on campus, but they're, they're working toward

they say, I interviewed one yesterday in fact. his education



was going to .The ones that are enlightened

feel they

W: Yeah.

T: ... almost illiterate, you might say.

W: There is a split thereF I understand right now it's really kind

of, you know, a problem.in the Indian community because ...

And it certainly makes our job, it makes my particular job,

the thing I'm involved in with the young people they're associated

with with this program, it makes it difficult for us.- cause

we feel that, well, it's a little touchy. It's difficult

to work in the community when ,. you feel like that perhaps

there's all this sediment and residue. Personally it hasn't

it hasn't, we haven't run into any problems personally, but
you/know with something like this. This, this could happen and

there's definitely a feeling, I think, of uneasiness in the com-

munity right now. I'm, and this is what I'm, my, my thinking,

this goes back to this community center. I really think that

like Adult Basic Education, just everything, could be really

prov--, different services and whatever, what have you, could

be combined in one center, one large center here in which

these kinds of services and activities could be coordinated with;

in which you really bring your young, and your old, your il-

literate and your educated, what-have-you, together in this center.

Maybe for different activity, but they come together and they

have they have a part in it, participation and so on.



T: A common bond.

W: Right. And I'm really, like I said, I'm really sold on this,

and I hope that someday I'll have, I'll have an opportunity

to be involved in seeing this a reality.

T: Well, I hope you will, too. I hope you get some finding on.t.

Have you talked to anybody over the people
whoA on or off campus?

W: yeah, we are in the process of, we're in the process ...

T: excuse me. ... Okay, I think we were talking about the community
center and your goals or hopes, aspirations for/future before

we were interrupted .

W: Right. We were talking about grants, and I think one of the things ...

well, we're pursuing, we have our research council now over here

at the university that's been established recently. And I think

that through this research council that we'll be able to pursue

all the possible avenues for funding from the university's standpoint.

And we'll hopefully be able to find something which, which we

can apply to for this, this community center. I certainly hope

so. I think possibly it can come eventually through the people

in this town Jaybe establishing this as a major priority and

working toward it. So there's a couple of avenues and you just

always keep your options open. Just try to find ways.



T: Well, I can't help but think any concrete thing that we see even

a building, is first an idea. And I certainly hope you don't

lose it or keep, you know ... because you can get discouraged

when you see that people, and particularly people in this area,

where it's most t_ ____ just don't understand some-

times, you know. Maybe it's lack of education or not caring

or whatever. But a person coming in and I've lived here

about five years, too, get discouraged and sort of turned off

and say, well, if they don't care any bit more than that

why should I knock my brains out. Sometimes you come up against

these, these barriers. I hope this is not the case. But

if it is) I hope you'll continue with it because you seem like

a determined person. I didn't, I don't believe I established

your age, did I?

W: I'm twenty-seven.

T: Twenty-seven. And where did you tell me you went to school?

W: I went to school at Kansas State and got my Master's there.

And thenfollowing that I had experience working with the

Department of Social Services in Joplin, Missouri. Then I

also worked as the director of the pilot project that was

establishing neighborhood centers. So I've had some experience

in getting ...

T: Seeiei-what some of the barriers that you can come up against.

W: A, Right. I'm pretty familiar with that because I had thirteen



personnel and we set up six neighborhood centers before I

left. I was drafted in the middle of, well, actually I'd been

working there about a year and then I was drafted and I spent

two years at Fort Bragg teaching there. It-was really some-

thing. I knew nothing about Pembroke. I absolutely knew nothing.

I was .-, at Fayetteville Fort Bragg, which is just thirty-five

miles from here. But I knew absolutely nothing. I had no

idea. I went, funny thing happened. I camdown here and someone

said when I got back. I met everybody down there. And they

saidN'well, did you see Lot of Indians?" And I said, "Oh,

I didn't see any Indians." And ... because here again, you know,

it's a cultural ij This is the first time I've ever really

that I know of, that I've ever been around Indians. And so

this is really a new experience. I came down here and for a

while I was pretty ignorant, very ignorant about what was going

on and about what:: had happened. And people started telling me

stories about discrimination and what have you. It's hat4=l- I .

hard for me to cope with and understand really. But I think

now after being here three years that I understand a lot
r- *-DOUI> the
more about what's going on atd- of course, living in/town itself.

And I think there's feelings, you know, both ways. I think

you know, I've encountered resentment because of the fact that

I'm white and X working in this area. And I think the first



time I was in the paper on something on a community thing I

received a letter telling me that that should be the extent

of my involvement. But, but I will say this, that for the most
part it's been/very positive thing. I've found the people of

Pembroke to be quite receptive, the ones that I have been

involved with to change and quite open. We have some people

that help on Saturday who I think are the greatest people in the

world. They come out there every Saturday morning I4 AL

adults in the community of Pembroke. And they are great. They're

... bought tennis shoes for all our volunteer kids out there,

and they're going to have a little weiner roast for all the kids

involved in the progamand d4dt-have-you. And ...

T: Well, this is together and it's not only in a family sort of way, of what

we all get such busy lives it's, has positive aspects in other


W: Yes, I enjoy a rural community. And I think Pembroke is like a lot

of rural communities because when I grew up everybody was kind

of everybody else's friend. And, you know, if you had problems

in the community then i other people were aware of the problems

and they'd try to help you do somehting about the problems.

And I think, you know, Pembroke is not unlike the town that I

grew up in. It's very similar because there's kind of an identity




T: It's some of our own town, I mean, you know, like you said,

... I think, I read a book called Growing Up in River City

or something.

W: Um, huh, right.

T: I didn't like it but then I had to realize a more realistic

attitude that was that some of River 6ity is in every

town, my town, and I had to realize it. And

get out there and start cleaning it up a little bit. But in

your response now, this community thing has been going on

for how long? The parents coming out, the adults and so on


W: Well, this has been going on for say, oh, I'd say, trying to

think back, it started in February. And ... this is the youth

program on Saturday. And every Saturday we have the youth

program and they swim and they wrestle and they play basketball

and they play softball and just, we try to provide ... volley-
for them
ball, we try ... soccer, everything/\on Saturday. And-we have

a number of community and university students working together

on this, to make this a success. And I think this has definitely

been a success. I think it's really helpful to people

in the community. I think it gives them a constructive outlet

as students in this area. What we hope to do, this is for high

school kids, eight through sixteen)is who we service.

T: Eight through sixteen?



W: Right.

T: I come, also come in contact with a lot of young people and then you

know, like I say, it's just that we's Indians. And the parents

have given up on them; just, you know, can't do anything with

them. Do you get any like this?

W: Yeah. I think ...

T: /Take 'em. I don't want them any more.

W: Right. I think that, I don't know, you see it, you see the thing

that can happen here; you've been involved with it before as I

have. You just want to say to people, you want to go up and say,

look, 1etlt get this thing built let-s get together& let's

get us a center going and we can work together as a community and
kinds of
do some of these/things." And sometimes, you know, it does

... you say frustration, sometimes it does get a little frustrating

because, to me, because I like, I like to see things done

yesterday. I don't like to, I realize that change is a developmental

thing, but personally, and I try to stay within-th4e the concept

of the system, but personally .i I get impatient, you know, and

I want to see it ...

T: You're a young man on the go.

W: I want to see it happen, you know, and I don't want to, I don't

want to wait ten years or fifteen years when I can see that some-

thing like this can be such a, such a beneficial thing to people



in this community.

T: Well, I think you realize, too, that you can talk a thing to death,

you know. And this, I wouldn't want to see either.

people, you know, on the, even some of the key people in the

community get them interested in this. I understand you work

pretty close with the LRDA. What is your involvement there?

W: Yeah, we work with the LRDA*and at this point we have established

a good relationship with LRDA. What we're presently doing

for example, we're helping them provide some student manpower

for some of their programs. For example, ....

T: Explain this manpower. To some areas it's not ...

W: Okay, one thing that, well, the LRDA has a .number of programs.

One of the things that we were very instrumental in helping them

with, in fact, ...

T: .a-hatdthe Lumbee Regional ...?

W: Lumbee Regional Development Association, right. One of the things

we were very much involved with was their program, tutoring

program. We had thirty students help. And this was about a
year and a half ago. Had thirty students involved J\ their

tutorial program, LRDA. And we had, we try to work with them,\ike

for example, with guidance and counselling. We, we were working

with them on that in that particular area also. LRDA at the

present time is also interested. In fact, they're also working



on this community center kind of idea. In fact a young lady

Works with LRDA, her name is Ruth Bettis wrote a tre-

mendous proposal for this community center. I mean it's

absolutely ideal. I hope it will be funded. And so this is

another ...

T: Where did she write?. Was-this-in a..brochure type or ...?

W: No, she, she's written a kind of a proposal thing. We had a,

we sat down and had a conversation about it one day, T N

"it 'a.4/.- dr_4( 7 //. She wrote a proposal. I'll give

you a copy of that, before ...

"T: I'd like to see it. We're going to have to

W: Sure, um, huh. It's extremely ... it's what I have envisioned

as being the answer to this community center idea.

T: In other words the two of you got together mainly from her

initiating it.

W: Right, right. She came down here and we sat and talked t"__A_

because I'd been working with LRDA.

T: Would you say her name again, please?

W: Ruth Bettis, B-e-t-t-i-s. But I've been, we've been working with

LRDA since I've been here actually with, first of all through

program, the tutorial program. And then we established

a pretty close relationships with them. We help them out if we
clSK eainhp



can and of course they're supportive of us, of our programs also.

I'd say recently we've established a real rapport. I'm not

saying it's always been that way. But I think recently, for

example, we had a meeting with gr. ____ i of LRDA and

some of his Staff members

and some of the people from here. It was quite productive. We

sat and kind of explained what we were doing, what we were about
in each of theiareas and how we could possibly be supportive

of each other, more supportive than we've been. I thought it was

very productive. I think LRDA is doing some good things.

T: hO 4 1cn _k ^ Z 4

W. Yes, I thought the response there was very good. I mean it

was a very productive meeting because I think people more or less

told what the kinds :of things they were interested in doing and

we talked concretely about dealing with those kinds of problems.

T: I've interviewed several of the new citizens of this county) and

some sota-tin different ways0%t seems to be the feeling of a

great many, I won't say the majority, but a great many that LRDA

is not serving the community as they hoped f it would. Could

you comment on this or what would you think they would ... I

think they say that the money is there, but somehow you have to

go through so much red tape to get the student or whoever you

know needs it. Now how do they work)as you understand it?

W: Well, all I could say, is I'm not that familiar&,you know, I've

heard that criticism before, but I'm not that familiar with how



they are, you know, really reaching the people of this community.

I'm aware of their programs,and I'm aware of some of their

programs, and some of their operations. But in terms of, you

know it'd be kind of like asking them to say, you know, how do

fell the Human Services ...

T: I'm asking you loaded question.

"W: Right. How do you feel the Human Services is doing dealing with

people because they may know, I think they're pretty well informed

about what's happened here, but other parts of the university

perhaps they mightnot be as familiar with. So I think that was

one of the constructive things of that particular meeting. It

really gave a chance to sit down and ...

T: Understand.

W: Right. Get a better understanrng. There was a lot of things

they were doing that I learned aboutthere that I thought I had a

pretty good knowledge of. I think this is important that we do

share information and what-have-you and about what we're about.
As far as the other thing that you mentioned, that criticism/what-

have-you, it'd be difficult for me to comment. I've been very

impressed with Mr. Blanks as the director and I've been very

impressed with Dewey Locklear, his assistant, who's been

quite cooperative. In fact, they've been very cooperative in the

Senior Citizen Walk-In Center. They've been very helpful to us.

And Dewey was at the first meeting we had there and he was



explaining what LRDA had done through their VISTA program and they've

opened up a lot of senior citizens groups throughout the county.

Ruth Bettis to me is one of the, she's top in my book. I think

she's a very perceptive person. She's a research, she writes j )

grants and what-have-you and she's very sharp, extremely sharp.

So from that standpointthat's about all I could comment on that---

what I know.

T: Well, perhaps it's lack of understanding is the reason some of the

citizens feel this way. And what you're doing is helping to

eliminate this, I think. As much publicity as you can get about

it, you know, through the newspaper or what-

ever you can use. Have you used the newspaper ...?

W: We sure have. We have, I think it's one thing that's ...some-

times it definitely does work to your advantage. It definitely



V: No, I think it's been very good. I feel sometime,you know, people

feel resentment. You know, other faculty members, what have you.


W: For example, about five or six sessions in a

row about that fact; didn't mention

any names, alluding to the fact. But ...

T: Does this disturb you to get criticism?

W: No, no. You kno,, you just kind of expect it when you're involved

in change. And there's a lot of it. There's a lot of, I



think in the faculty, for example, I feel more pressure within

the faculty than I do, I've received excellent, we've received

excellent cooperation from the administration, from the students,

they've been just fantastic. The students have been remarkable.

And from the state. We've been listed, and I just received a

publication of a little booklet, It's called Noel: Notes on

the Experience .of Learning. And in that booklet we, ourselves,

and Duke were the two schools from North Carolina that were

listed in it as having programs that were considered extremely

good programs by the people that were writing this evaluation. I

myself have been asked to speak at the Davidson conference which

involved all the schools: in the state. I was one of three

panelists to kick off the day's activities and explain the Pem-

broke situation and what we were doing. And we've had numerous

requests from other schools concerning our service-learning con-

tract. They want it and they want to use it. I think ...

T: Have you opened the doors on this for other ...?

W: Oh, yeah, yes. We're very cooperative in terms of, we had a

conference here, North Carolina Office Conference

here last October. We had eleven schools from South Carolina

come to see what we were doing. Spent the day here. One of the

deans from Clemson University was here. And I think, you know,

this is indicative. Most all the agencies we are dealing with,

fifteen at that time, were here, represented Most of the



administration was represented. And we invited,some of the faculty

came. And it was quite a, I think, a good experience. We had

like say, most of the schools requested information, were given

information concerning our operation here. and we periodically

get this request. But I think in terms of support that for this

kind of thing that we're getting pretty good support. The

criticism is there. You know I get teased a lot and (some of

it I don't think is so much teasing about being in the newspaper

or holding a party for The Robisonian or the Fayetteville paper.

T: In other words you're not a favor-bender at heart?

W: But I see publicity as this. You see, I use, I believe in

publicity. I will do everything I can to get publicity for our

program because this is the way I feel: when you don't have

money, you gotta have something going for you and I think

publicity is a way, is really a tool. and when I worked in

Joplin I got on a TV show and I was on there periodically, started

out. And I used a devious method I guess you could say. I

got on this TV show and I had the senior citizens group to call

in and tell them how much they enjoyed the program. After that,

you know, I was just supposed to be on there for that day, well,

they got so much response at the TV station that they called me

back up and said that you're so popular they'd like me to come

back periodically, every ... so I was going back there every



two weeks. And it was a very, it was a station that hit four

states. And so we got all kinds of response. I think it was

the real key point in the development of the center was the
publicity. I think here, too, ./ had write-ups all over. The

Charlotte Observer had a front page story on what we were doing.

Greensboro has done some things. Fayettevill has done a lot

of things. And of course, the Robisonian here. And throughout
the state/we've had a lot of publicity.

T: In dealing with young people is it in your program or do you

anticipate it being in your program, or is now perhaps, the

kids that are on drugs or have drug problems, is there any plan

in your program for that or do you have, is this not in the

progarm yet?

W: Well, I can see, this, you know, like being through the community

center, coming through the community center. We don't have,

well, I'll just say, at this point that the drug situation, I

don't, I'm not that involved with it really I guess you could say,

drug rehabilitation. Now I have written off for a grant. I

came down and somebody had to write it. Well, I wrote a draft
for/drug rehabilition grant which would send off a number ofi

our students and myself to Florida.

T: Do you happen to have that available?

W: Uh, well, it's, it hasn't been approved yet. It's been sent off.

And it hasn't been approved yet.

T: You wouldn't want to make it available ...?



W: I don't see any objection to it. I submitted it to Dr. Todd,

whose the head of the Research Council and he sent it on.

T: But you say this goes to all the major colleges?

W: Um, huh.

T: And what you're saying perhaps could do with this.

W: Right. This is a ...

T: Using this as a supplemental tape ...

V: Right. This is a drug abuse program. -It's available through

Washington, D. C. And this is available to, as I-understand it, a

number of colleges participated in this or sent grants off for

it. I don't know how many, but after talking to people in

Washington they said that there were just a whole lot of people.

And I'm not too optimistic about our chances right now. I think

we would have possibly heard something by I now if there was

something for us there. But it was available so I sent it.in and

it was request.

T: may have been sort of slow. You know, President Nixon

himself has had a committee going and he's kind of remained quiet

on it this being an election year. But perhaps something will

come through on it. I think they are doing some studies on it.

And we have to face the drug problem of the young people.

W: Sure. I think ...

T: I don't know how inflitrated it is in the college yet, but I

know in the young people, well, as far as most of the town,

say it's really bad, you know. We might as well



face it.

W: Right. Let me say this. _wasn't quite fair to us there

because we hosted a drug information conference here. And we had

people from Chapel Hill, from Fayetteville at the Fort Bragg

Operation Awareness, from the mental health clinics in two

counties, La group of pharmicists at Chapel Hill came down.

And we hosted this and we had two of the largest assemblies we've
ever had/and we filled up Moore Hall two hours consecutively. And

people were sitting in the balcony and what have you, so ... so

I should say we did host that conference last semester and there

was a great deal of participation in the people that were in

the afternoon, talking and rapping with the kids about drugs and

what have you, and their problems. It was quite informative. It

was quite informative. The only thing that I'd say is tvit at

this point we don't have specific, we have initiated a program

like this. I'm not saying that perhaps we can or we should,'

but at this point we just haven't done it. We don't have a drug,


T: Excuse me-just a minute ...





T: Since the center is relatively new/compared to maybe some of the other

things it's kind of hard to take everything in at one time, but you

do as you say draw up a grant and hopes to eventually.

W: Yeah. We do. and of course, who knows, we may find that as

being a priority and we can get into that. I think there's,

but the fact that you know we're this close to Fort Bragg, and

Fort Bragg being what it is, and the tremendous amount of use and

availability of drugs in fort Bragg, that it's very difficult

to say that we don't have a problem. I just, to be quite honest

with you, I am not that aware of the problem here in this county

because ...

T: In other words you haven't been confronted with any students with

this problem?

: No, ...

T: Come to you for help or anything.

W: No, no, I've had people come about abortion and what have you, so

I know about that.

T: What are your feelings on this now that you mention it?

W: Well, my feelings are definitely that it's an individual choice,

but that the individual should be aware of all alternatives, you

know, available to him, or excuse me, to her.

T: Usually there's a "him" involved also.

W: Yes, right, right. But I do get students that come and request

information and what have you about abortion. I think the



important. thing here is just, as I see my role, I'm not an

abortion counsellor by any sense of the word, but I am ...

T: This is strictly an opinion now ...

W: Right. I teach Population here, you see, and ...

T I' Tknow you are a member of the Zero Population
W: Right. Zero Population Growth. And I'm also/associate member

of the Carolina Population Center and I'm also just recently

have delivered a paper to the North Carolina Sociological As-

sociation on undergraduate population courses. And I'm also in

the process .of writing a, compiling a book,-an inter-directory

book on population with several people from around the state in

North Carolina. So this is my interest then in terms of abortion.

And of course we discuss this in Population, and I think that's

probably, you see I don't teach anything about drugs and maybe

that's why I get some people on abortion and I don't get them on


T: Do you think abortion should be legalized to the point where

the person can just go ask for it if

they felt..?

W: Well, the Supreme Court has said, you know, that it is now, and

I think ...

T: Is it in every state?



W: Yeah, well, the Supreme Court now has, you know, some states are

getting slowly caught up on it, what have you, but now they have

to implement it and I'm not sure that all states have yet im-

plemeinted the programs yet. But the Supreme Court has said

that abortion is now legal. So right now that's the system we're

offer ing. My concern is this. My concern is this. I'm concerned

about contraceptives. I think that there's no need to, I think

it's unfortunate people have to have abortions. I think, for

example, they're expensive. There are alot of times psychological

problems associated with abortion. So my personal viewpoint is I

think abortion is unfortunate. It is medically safe.

T: It shouldn't be used as a means of birth control.

W: No, I don't think it is a method of birth control. I don't like

to think of it that way. I think it is, unfortunately I think

there is a lot of misinformation about abortion. Abortion is

medically safe. It is more medically safe, there's less chance

of problems with an abortion than there is with a full pregnancy.

In other words, a person is taking a greater risk by having a

full pregnancy than they are with abortion.according to statistics.

So I think it's safe, I think it can be done very quickly, it's

not, doesn't have, is not something that's going to linger on.

for a week or two weeks or what have you. It's relatively in-

expensive; I say relatively, it depends on where you get it.done.

In Washington for example an abortion can be, you see, New



York is actually cheaper right now than to get it done right

here in North Carolina, which is interesting.

T: I often see numbers in the paper, newspapers, different papers

where you can call.

W: Right. You get abortion counselling, too.

T: Help even financially.

W: My concern and I think it's a real concern around this area I'm

extremely concerned about the sex education program here in this


T: Do you think it's lacking as far as being up to date?

W: Oh, definitely, definitely. I think it's very unfortunate, I

think it's very unfortunate that we still in this area especially,

well, other rural areas I1.think too.

T: We're living in, I'm afraid it's, maybe we go back to our puri-

tanical ancestry that we can't discuss it openly and freely maybe.

W: Well, this is it. This is really what it involves. It's the

fact : that we cannot deal with it openly. Or we are not dealing

with it openly. Ilm always amused that we would rather our

sons and daughters find out about sex reading something off the

wall of the john rather than to sit down in- a classroom situation

and discuss it in this kind of a manner. In other words we
I think
put the kind of negative connotations/to it and the kind of, well,

I just think, you know, you treat sex, if you treat sex in

this kind of manner it's something clandestine, it's something



secretive and something which you find out about by your buddy

telling you what the system is. And I think it's unfortunate

a lot of people find out about the rhythm method or how to use
a condom or how to use a diaphragm or IUD or what have you/from

somebody who could help them with it. They find out from some-

body who knows perhaps as little about it as they do, or very

little about it.

T: They experiment and it sometimes fails, but it could ...

W YVery often fails.

T: ... could be successful if it was in the right way.

W; Right. I think it's just, you know, when you're a young

person tampering with contraceptives without education. It's

like a little child playing with a loaded gun. I think you're

not aware of the implications of it and ... For example,

I was talking over in Red Springs one time to a high school

group. And I asked this group, I said, "how-many knew what the

rhythm method was?" Well, a few of them raised their hands.

So this one boy, I said, "well, who can tell can tell me what

it is?" And he said, "yeah, that's," he said, "from the twelfth

to the sixteenth day you don't have sex." I thought this was

a rather astute observation on his part, and I bought well,

maybe I don't need to be addressing this subject. Then he said,

"all you have to do is have a calendar and mark off the twelfth

through the sixteenth in every month for a 0 year." "And,"



he said, "that way you don't have to worry about it." So I think

with that kind of information floating around it's really sad.

And I tihnk this is true not only in terms of the ...

T: And his peer group probably has set him up as an authority.

Wi Sure. Sure. Right. He's an authority and they were all listening

to him and they were all shaking their head and I think

they, you know, really thought that this was the case. That the
thirteenth,/fourteenth or fifteenth of the month was the time not ...

and the group I was talking to there were three young ladies

there who were pregnant.

T: Unmarried?

W: I assume. I did not see any rings. I assumed that they weren't


T: Well, I understand it's been happening a great deal. I think,

and there seems to be, there's something about the Lumbees, there's

not, once it happens they don't want to have an abortion as

such. They feel, it goes back to religion. Have you gotten any

criticism for this, that you know, it's murder; you're killing

a life, this kind of thing.

W. Sure. Sure.

T: I'm sure you've encounter some of this. Has it been to any large


W: I brought a good friend of mine whose on the national board of

directors of ZPG, Kent Hall, Dr. Kent Hallat Wisconsin, and

we had such an overflow of attendance we had to call another



assembly and had two full assemblies for Dr. Hall. It was

very rewarding in terms of student participation. I just

couldn't have been happier about that. At .that particular

thing Dr. Hall talked about abortion. and we got a lot of

response to that cause he was gone and I was here and I was

kind of associated with th\. But I don't know, I think ...

T: Abortion, you're not just advocating it for the person whose

unmarried but even married.

W' Oh, well, yeah.

T: Sometimes you get caught, you know.

W: Sure.

T: I guess it's been said that over half the population's accidents

you know.

W: Right. I think so.

T: Nice accidents, you know, but still we're overpopulated and

becoming more so.

W: I think this, not only the overpopulation thing, see, a lot of

people are putting out information now that ZPG has been reached

in this country. Well, that's true. We've gotten down to around

the 2.0 level in terms of replacement. Per family, 2.0 average.

The thing that people are not saying is that it's going to take.

seven years for our population in the United States to stabilize

in the United STates and other places it may never stabilize.

But in the United States we seem to be ahead of other countries,

if not, like India and South America, for example. But it's



going to take another seven years When our population stabilizes

if we maintain this replacement level, we're going to have

350 million people. A lot of people are concerned about the

quality of life for the people we've got right now. And I'm

concerned for one about the quality of life we're going to have

when we have three hundred and fifty if we keep the replacement

level. And there's no guarantee that that will happen. It

"may go back up again and fluectuate. Economics a lot of times

determines this, you know. During the Depression there was a

low birth rate. People would do anything not to have children

because they couldn't be provided for. There were a lot of

illegal abortions performed in that time. Then after World War

Ut'for example we had this now famous "baby boom". And the

baby boom really was a result and condition of the fact that

people were in pretty good shape. The country was very well

off economically after the second war, second world war. 'Course

other factors like all the men returned and it was a time to ...


W: :Right it was a time to grow and a time to build and a time of

faith in the future, what have you. That this was the last war

maybe this sort of thing.

T: Do you find much resistance towards the Zero Population movement

at this time? Is it two children they advocate plus yourself?

Wt Umm, huh, right.



T: And the guys wear little pins with "I've had my vasectomy."

Do you find many youg men or old men or whatever willing to go

through this or do they kind of ...?

V: Well, a vasectomy is still/I think a couple of years ago there

were a lot of people getting vasectomies. Well, there are

still a lot of people getting vasectomies. But there's a lot

of information being floated around about the vasectomies. I

read a study not too long ago that it's linked to arthritis-

and rheumatism and that sort of thing. But I'm not sure, too

sure about that sort of thing. I know the son of the president...

TI The thing that I was thinking about and it seemed ... I talked-

to one doctor, just a regular M.D., he said that before he would
the operation,
advise any of his patients to have this done4that he would

advise them to see a psychiatrist first to see if their ego

was strong enough.because somehow it was a threat to their man-

hood. What's your comment on this? Do you ... if a person's

secure I can see, but ...could it be, you know, it's called

impotency, this kind of thing, if a person is lost.

W: Yeah, I think .a person has to have his stuff together psycho-

logically before he gets a vasectomy because if he doesn't then

he's setting himself up. If he's not sure I don't think, you

know, in terms of, it's really a psychological thing. If a

person is ready psychologically for this kind of thing then fine.

If he's. nt then I would be be skeptical. I think he really

should be certain that this is what he wants. And I think a



person maybe nineteen or twenty thinking about this may not be, maybe

he really hasn't given it enough thought.' I'm-saying in terms

of age. If he's just gotten married, they've beeimarried three

or four months, and they decide he wants to get a vasectomy.

And then say six or seven years later he decides that he de-

finitely wants a family. So they're getting to the point now

where they're reversable. There's a greater possibility for

reversibility, but it's not a guaranteed thing. Either way--that

you will be able or won't be able to have children once you have
is that
a vasectomy. So my feelings on it/personally a person should

be psychologically ready. I think there should be some counselling

involved before he -goes in. I don't think it's a matter of

going in and getting a vasectomy. And I think, I know a doctor

in Fayetteville, for example, who gives vasectomies. And I

discussed this with him. I personally don't have a vasectomy.

But I have discussed the possibility with him and talked about:

how he did it and what have you. He has a counselling session

with the person. The second, these are fairly expensive, is one
They're a
thing. They don't take long./ maybe, you know,/ten or fifteen

minutes process. You can have it done very shortly.

T: It's advised rather than the wife ...

W: Right. Well, oh yes,yes. If there was a choice, if there

had to be a choice between for example my wife and myself

and one of has to do it, had to do 'it, one of us had to do itj



then I would say that I should be the one. And I think this is

a problem. We've put the burden on the woman. I think it's

unfortunate because actually ...

T: This is >what I was going to say. Even for a husband to

get this operation the wife has to sign the paper. Are you

aware of this?

W: Right.

T: It still comes back to ... the fall

on her. IsC there some way to get this, let it be his decision?

I know that they have to discuss it and talk about it. But

a paper was brought I couldn't sign it

because as a man gets older,I mean .we're not here forever.

l'm not a person who dwells on the dark side of life and I

don't get my kicks that way, but I realize I could go any day.

And he's still, well, even if he's forty the marriage scale

goes down. He could marry someone much younger who would like

to have children and I couldn't bring myself to sign the paper.

And I still haven't. But if he wants it, you know, I think,

well, just like they say an abortion is between a woman and her

doctor, I think, am I wrong in thinking,that it should be maybe

between the man and the doctor or i his counsellor? Of course,

I think it should be discussed with the wife, but .not leave

the final, you know, last thing on her.

W: Yeah, I think it should definitely be discussed with the wife,

but I don't think, I do think that the man ...



T: In other words if you hadn't signed that paper I wouldn't be in

this shape today at least not being able to perform sexually, you

know, as he had been able to do. I feared that kind of reaction.

W: Oh, I see, I see. Well, here again that's going back to his

psychological make-up because it's been proven that this is the

only problem in terms of impotency that you're going to run in-

to; that it's a psychological thing. If the person can adjust

and adapt to this thing -psychologically then, you know, he's

going to be okay. Of the second, he does not physically, it

doesn't do anything physically to you that would impair you

from having sexual relations. But you can believe that. Well,

you know, how much is sex in the mind really? Youtalk about

sex ...

T: The brain's a sexist organ.

W: Right, right. So we talk about that and it's very easy to see

where that could be a problem for a man if he was inclined to

believe that going into it. Now if he was pretty well set, done

his research on vasectomies and what have you he realizes that

he doesn't have to have that problem. But that's another question.

T: How do you think, or have you had any reaction as to how the

Lumbee people would react to this? Because they say that, you

know, the Indians are fading out and getting smaller number and

so on.

W: That's an interesting, that's a very good question because I've



had that, I was giving an address.one time in North Carolina

Home Economics Assocation and I had a black girl, we were talk-

ing about ZPG, and boy, she let me have it. She said, you are

preaching annihilation of the minorities and wp t have you if

you preach this replacement level and what have you. Well,

to me this is a fallacy in logic because this is making an

assumption that numbers necessarily mean power. And being in

a minority is a situation of powerlessness, not necessarily...

-we think in terms of the sociologist a minority axxxaiEg and

majority in relation to power, who controls the power. Well,

in our society the whites control the power; in South Africa,

the blacks,..a large...have many more numbers interms of

quantity in numbers, but in terms of power the whites control the

power structure there. And there's much more pxu oppression in

South Africa toward blacks, where blacks have the majority of

people, than there is here in the United States, you see.

T: Um-hum.

W: Which, which what I'm saying is the fact that I think to tell a/

Dick Gregory, for example is big on this, a black leader, he says,

"Go out and have as many children as you can have." Well, Dick

Gregory can say that. He has eleven children, and he can provide

for them, both economically, educationally, what have you.

T: Um-hum.



W: But for him to go to a ghetto an tell a person with a low

socio-economic condition. to have eleven children, to me is

absurd. Dick Gregory should bear the responsibility of

providing for those children, I think, if he's going to

make statements to that effect. I think it's irresponsible.

I believe that the assumption there he's making is that that's

going to increase the black power. But when a person has

eleven children they can't send any of them to educational

system to improve their relative position in society. How

in the world is that going to help them? Whereas if they had

two children which perhaps they could provide for, send them

bqoeducational system, adequately care for them, what have you,

then that's another situation. So you could almost reverse that
; I would almost reverse that arg ent and say

that you actually could...

T: WhatL.he's saying is .. even-illigitimate just as long as you

produce. But who's going to take care of them?

W: Sure, produce, produce, produce. And that's the thing. You can

say, well, who's going to take care of them and he'll say,

well, the government's responsibility. Well, poverty is self-

perpetuating and it's a cycle. A hundred ...

T: It's hard to come out of it.
W: Right. And/especially and difficult to come out of it if you've

got sormany things going against you, like this eleven-child

family or what have you. So I think this to meAis an



irresponsible talk. And for him to say it in that position it

bothers me. This is the same thing that I answered the young

lady. And I would say it to the people here, in this area. I

would say if they had, I think personally, personally I think that

if a family wants to have fifteen children that's their business,

you see. That's their business.

T: If they can provide for them ...

W: Well, if they can provide ... right. If they can provide for the

children. It used to be, it used to be, I say I feel that way,

I really don't but I'm not, let me put it this way. I don't feel

that way, but I would do nothing to, I feel that they do have a

choice. They can do it. I don't feel that that's right. I don't

feel like it's right for example for the Kennedys to have as

many children as they have because today, used to be when we had

a land full of opportunity for people that, it used to be wide-

open spaces to go to and all kindsof new resources and what have

you to take advantage of that we could talk of having about

having as many children as we wanted to. Today we're in a re-

source crisis, you see. And we're talking about rationing

gas up in charlotte and cutting the water supply and what have

you in this area.

T: And we're out of beach.

W: So, so I, I Vd't know. So today I think, you know. we have to

think in terms of the big picture, not just your particular little


LUM 95 A


T: I think I would agree with this. From a sociology standpoint

I wanted to ask you what your opinion was on trial marriages

coming on now?

W: Hmmm.

T: You know if you read Psychology Today and

a great deal of this is going on. 'Course it's in bigger places

W: well, I think a trial marriage, I don't 4w. It's just something,

it's so very complex. I could support an argument either way on

that particular question. I could give you a supportive ar-

gument. I could take either gS side of that and give you a

strong supportive argument for it. And I think a strong sup-

portive argument for trial marriages is theL fact that in our

country we have such a haphazard way of getting married. And it's

kind of, well, I think we give more attention to buying a house

or an automobile sometime than we do to making a decision that's

going to more or less bind us, you know, which ...

T: For the rest of our lives.

W: Right. So ...

T: 'Till death do us part. Anyway it's said that way.

W: I think sometimes, right, sometimes, you know, it's amazing to me

sometimes we spend more times on the decision-making process

on things which are irrelevant as compared to marriage in

which should be a very imporatnt decision, I think. And we don't

spend the time on it.



T: Right. It seems the things that affect us the most

we have very little training for. Bringing up children. It's

by ear; we play.it by ear.

W: That's right.

T: And it's so frightening sometimes.

W: That is so true.

T: And the same thing about marriage. I mean, you can go with a

person for five years but you don't know them until you eat at

the same table, bathe in the same bathtub, sleep in the same bed.

W: Right.

T: And this kind of thing.

W: That's right. I agree with you on that.

T: And I think that marriage is perhaps, and divorce is better than

a bad marriage. Especially when there's children...

W: I agree, I agree.

T: ...involved. I've had experience in this personally and

And even the minister in a'lot of cases says, "this

has been my first time that I have said that divorce is the an-
swer here because there's children involved."-/ the personali-

ties were ... it was not to say who was right or wrong, it

was just a difference in the personalities and the backgrounds.

W: I agree, I agree. I agree and I think that, you know, ...

T: But who, when you go ahead and you know, smack and you get

married, you say, it's like discussing'let's go to the movies,"

you know, or which movie to see.



W: Right.

T: No nne benefits from it, from the divorce, but maybe the lawyer.

W: And I think an unfortunate thing is it puts this trial marriage

thing, well, I think, say ...

T: Well, what do you mean by "unfortunate"?

W: Well, I was going to say, really the .fortunate thing about the

trial marriages is that you get to know a person and you get to
find out a little bit about that/ The unfortunate thing, I would

say, would be this, on a trial marriage, would be this; is that

I'm concerned that there's not enough, I'm concerned about the

decline of intimate relations in our society. For example,

we've gone from a rather impersonal society, excuse me, you know,

the old traditionally-ruled society, very closed, tied together,

personal, that sort of thing to a rather secondary ... impersonal

realoons. And also in terms of commitment I think that there is

something to say about two people who make a commitment, you

see AMd then follow it on through. And so, to that point I


T: .Could a person be permitted to get a trial marriage license

as a young person is to get a trial license, you know, to drive?

W: Yeah.

T: For a certain amount of time, you know, to see if this thing is

going to work out.

W: I think it's possible. In fact, I'm thinking along the lines of



what you call a contractuallmarriage, which ... It has some appeals

as far as I'm concerned; there are some appealing things about it.

One of the things about a contractual marriage is that you take

a contract to marry someone for a certain length of time, say three

years or five years or what have you. Then at the end of the

contractual time you either decide to renew the contract or to

not renew the contract.- And then at that time this gives you an

opportunity kind of to get to know the person, to find out whether

or not you are suited. I think that perhaps whether or not therd's

children is, this is rather crucial to this whole idea of con-

tractual. For example, if you had a two-year contractual marriage

and then after the two-year contractual marriage decided whether

you wanted to renew that marriage or not. Then at that timkou

could get into such questions as children and what have you. But

I think the first couple of years are crucial in a marriage.

And a lot of ...

T: children, in my opinion. But I ... not my opinion to

be stated here.

W: No, I don't, I don't think so. I think really the first couple

of years you should avoid having children.

T: It's really a big adjustment ...

W: It's a very, and I'm speaking, I can't speak from my own experience

'cause my wife and I were married, oh, let's see, I guess, second

year of our marriage she became pregnant. So then this was, funnl,



here I am, maybe this is one of the reasons I'm soo interested

in sex education and what have you, because we f got some

misinformation from a doctor and so this was ... At that time

it was a very bad time for us. I was going away to the service.

And it was no time at all. The Vietnam situation was extremely

critical. Most of the people were finding themselves somehow

becoming implicated in that. That's why I kind of felt like

maybe it would happen to me., And it was no time at all to have

a child. Economically, of course, it was not a good time. And

we were just getting off our feet and here we had a child. And

I think that it was very rough. I was at Fort Bragg and it

was very tight economically. It was an adjustment. And so,

this was ...

T: I don't think the mother can really,and research supports the

mother it affects the child even

if you feel that it's wanted. Used to be an old wives' tale,

but I think we've established that it's pretty much true.

W: That's true. I think when you're nervous and the emotional

stability and what have you of the mother is extremely important

during pregnancy. And so I think really when you have a child

that you should pretty well set in terms of, you know, eco-

nomically, you should be fairly stable; psychologically, you

should be stable and ...

T: And emotionally feel that there's a person there with you. That



means a lot to a woman.

W: And let's face it. A child can be a very constrictive thing to

a young couple, you know, who are just kind of still maybe ex-

ploring themselves. And then there in a position ...

T: You walk out the door and in ten minutes decide to go to a movie,

but you have to, like plan three days a head of time to go some-

where and get a baby-sitter.

W: Right, this is the thing. This is the thing that really, it

made such a transition in our life because we used to like, say,
at one or two/get these crazy ideas, one or two in the morning,

to go for a ride or walk or go get something somewhere, or go

to an all-night coffee shop, and just crazy, you know, things

like that. But we really enjoyed it. We'd go and play bridge

all night and things like that. Well, when a child arrives and

you, there's just no ...

T: They dictate your whole life.

W: It's a whole new ballgame. You just, you can't help, I mean, I

admit it's not a, I don't like to admit it, but I have some

resentment toward my child, you know. I love my child, I'm

not saying that, you know.

T: I know what you're saying.

W: I'd do anything for him, but I actually feel a resentment toward

him in the sense that he has, causes me to change my lifestyle

a great deal.



T: Well, women feel this, too, I think because maybe their husbands
are taking business trips / they've always been able to go with

him, and they're able to shop and do things while they're

It's kind of a holiday for them. .But you don't leave

a small child. Somehow the mother, if she's away she's miserable,

if she's there and he's gone she's miserable. So it's just a

miserable time you live through there for a while.

W: I think a lot of people ...

T: I thought I'd never get through it, but after looking back it

goes pretty fast.

W: I think an interesting thing is a lot of people don't like to

admit,you know,that they feel this; that they feel perhaps a cer-

tain way toward having maybe a negative feeling toward their

child. This doesn't mean they don't love their child. That

can't, that shouldn't be confused with it. It simply means that

this caused a complete change in their lifestyle. And it cer-

tainly did with us. And we're still I think adjusting, even

though our child is three and a half years old, you know --the

baby-sitter problem and what have you. and the fact of kind of

getting away together and spending time alone is a problem.

You think ... well, ...

T: Don't you feel it's kind of like maybe there's something there,

just like, and when you get away alone, the baby, you know ...

W: You worry ...

T: You're thinking, you're glad to get out and you're worried i it's



a mixed emotion.

W: Um huh, right. You get out there and you can't really com-

pletely enjoy yourself in a way 'cause you're always worrying

whether the baby-sitter is giing to give it the kind of care

that you would and what have you.- And it jus really, that's

one thing I gues is an advantage of living around your parents,

you know, 'cause they seem to enjoy taking care of children

and you don't feel so ...
T: I talked to a young man right before I talked /- you on an inter-
view who had ten in his /. I said, I feel sort of, feel for

your mother sympathetic to have ten children. She must be made

out of good stuff. He said well, she was. But really I don't

know how people have large families like they used to. It

just doesn't seem like we have whatever it is that ... I don't

think I could go through another pregnancy now.

I don't know ... I feel, I have two boys ... But

I'm sure for men that, you know, have their tale of

woe, too. I mean, you know, they have to go through all the

sufferhgi, but I'm sure it's not, it's a psychological thing,

too, as you've explained. Is there any other things of the pro-

gram that you do here that I haven't mentioned. I wanted to

go into some of the, well, things that you being a parent

you see this coming on the scene today. I don't know if your

wife works or not, it's beneath your dignity to wash dishes



or maybe Something like this, or change

the baby's diaper or things that had to be done. This is just


W: I'll be honest about that. In terms of Women's Lib I'm not, I'm

probably a more liberal thinker than I am in terms of actual

practice. And I'm a real hypocrite because I think women should

be accorded equality and what have you, but I'm very hypocritical

about it. My wife has done the household task what have you

and I have not really been very helpful. In fact I've been

very little help at all around the house. And I think this is

partially my fault and I don't know, maybe I shouldn't say this on

tape but it's partially her fault because she is very concerned

about the appearance pf the house and what have you which does

not bother me to that extent.

T: Well, this is in fact any way you .

W: So in a way then if she wants the house to have a new appea*nse

what have you then she feels compelled to do it. And, but

again, I do feel this though. After working very hard to get

her an education, she has a wealth of experience, she's a very

talented musician. She's toured Europe, and she sang and

with international competition. But she is finishing

up here in terms of her formal degree. And I want her to get

it because I want my wife to feel independent of me. I don't

want her to feel tied to me and I do want her to find a sense

of fulfillment through what she's doing. I want her to do her

LUM 95 A


thing and I want her to be, don't want her to g feel her only

alternatives are to stay in the house and ...

T: And live in your shadow.

W: Right. I don't like that. And I think sometimes,tyou know, this

comes up For example ...

T: Well, we're all kind of living in hard times as far as the

male/woman relationship because women I think are a certain

and men see it as a threat. Sometimes you don't

know how to deal with it. -- noti! experienced

as far as doctors and what have you today.

W: I think, for example, I was just talking with my wife the other

day, and I told her that I'd like her to go as far in education

as she'd like to go. I'd like to see her do that. And if she

wants to stop after a bachelors, fine; if she wants to go get

her Masters, fine; if she wants to go get her Ph.D. I'd like

to help her to do it if I can.

T: Do you have any plans to get your Ph.D.? ever working

on it? You're so busy.

W: Well, at this point if I stay in education I definitely will

get a Ph.D. If I stay in the educational arena. I'm not sure

at this point whether what my plans are in that respect be-

cause I. very much like community work. I enjoy this setting

extremely, but in a college atmosphere what have you there's

a lot of pressure to get your Ph.D. I don't feel like pressure's



been put on me here because I have a lot of freedom in the work

I'm doing. But in general that's the situation in terms of


T: I want to ask you one other thing. ... Research again supports

that suicide is the second killer of college age students; auto-

mobile wrecks is the first. What comment can you make on this?

*.iWhat reason would be given for this? Do you think maybe the

frustration level, do they put too much pressure--you mentioned

pressure in your job--and pressure in obtaining your degree and

things like this. Why would a college-age student commit suicide?

W: Hmmm. Well, I think suicide is related to what we call in

sociology "anomie,'" which is the state of normlessness. And

It doesn't mean that the person doesn't ihave:any norms at all

or standards. It means that he has so many he doesn't know

which to choose from. It's very difficult for him to choose

and set a norm and internalize it for himself. So I think this

is a problem sometimes. For example, I think a student who's

grown up in a very rigid, structured family group, leaving that

group and then going to school. And so when he's in a very

rigid, structured group he accepts this what have you, and when

he goes to school, it's a totally different environment. And

many times a person cannot adjust. He doesn't know whether

to cast off what his family has been teaching him for all these

years or to cast off what everybody else around him, his peers,

are doing. So he's left with that conflict. What he may do is



reject both. He may become frustrated at his parents for put-

ting him in a situation like that, and frustrated at himself

because he can't adapt to it.

T: Well, one reason I asked this question because this is a problem

with the Lumbee people. The suicide rate is high, nervous dis-

orders are great and we have a lot of alcoholism among the

people here. And you just expressed;an understanding of it

and we're appreciative of this, the community is, and we hope

you'll keep your work up and I appreciate this interview with

you. And for myself and on behalf of Doris Duke Foundation I

thank you very much.

W: Thank you. I enjoyed it.


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