Title: Interview with David Oxendine (May 14, 1973)
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007077/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with David Oxendine (May 14, 1973)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: May 14, 1973
Spatial Coverage: Lumbee County (Fla.)
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00007077
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 90A

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Full Text


This Oral History is copyrighted by the Interviewee
and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of

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Subject: David Oxendine

Interviewer: Lew Barton

Date: May 14, 1973

Typist: JoAnn Suslowicz

Side I

B: This is May 14, 1973. I am Lew Barton, Historical Consultant to the Doris

Duke Foundation's American Indian Oral History Program under the auspices of

the University of Florida. This afternoon I am in my home in Pembroke, North

Carolina, and with me is a student from Pembroke State University, and I am

going to ask him to give us his name.

0: My name's David Ertle Oxendine.

B: David Ertle Oxendine, what are your parents' names?

0: My father's late Ishemael Oxendine and my mother--Stoney Mae Jones Oxendine.

B: Uh-huh. Would you spell his first name? It might give the typist a little bit

of trouble.

0: Ishemael.

B: Uh-huh. Is that last name of course is OXEN, uh, DINE?

0: Yes, sir.

B: Uh, what year are you in at P.S.U.?

0: I graduated yesterday.

B: Oh. That's great. That's even better than being a student. Uh, how many are

s in your family

0: Now there are six of us.

B: Um-hum.

0: One, uh, my oldest brother died in Viet"Nam.

B: Oh, I'm sorry. What was his name?

0: Charles Harris Oxendine.

B: CharlesSHarris Oxendine. What are the names of the other children--your

brothers and sisters?

LUM 90A 2

0: Well, my oldest sister is Rachel.Doris Turnings.

B: Uh-huh.

0: The other sister--Peggy Dale Moyer, and I have a--three younger brothers, uh,

Carson Oxendine, Lester and Wayne Lobette.

B: Um-hum. I suppose we better spell those last names to be sure

would you mind?

0: Lobette?

B: Um-hum.

0: L. .

B: L-0-B-E-T-T?

0: E

B: With an E on it, good. And, I heard another one that was just a little bit

difficult, maybe, or it might have been spelled a different way by a different


0: Moyer?

B: Right.

0: M-0-Y-E-R.

B: Uh-huh. Thank you. Well, how do you feel now that you're, uh, be as you

graduate with a degree? Are you looking forward to a teaching profession, or

industry, or farming?

0: Well, I'm really looking forward to working with the state, or the, uh,

federal government.

B: Uh-huh.

0: In some capacity. I haven't really decided.

B: Um-hum. Did you get a B.A. or an M.A.? --a B.A. or B.S.?

0: A B.A. in History.

B: I see. That's great. Uh, you're probably familiar with, uh, the history of

LUM 90A 3

our people, the Lumbee Indians in this area aren't you?

0: I have done some reading. Not too much.

B: I have a thesis which was sent me just, uh, two days ago by a student doing

her thesis over in the state of Michigan, which I'm sure you'd be interested

in seeing, on the lost colony. Is that a subject that facinates you?

0: Um-hum. I'ld certainly like to know where the lost colony got to.

B: Um-hum.

0: They didn't find it anywhere.

B: Well, she, uh, she attempts to explain that, as my book did, except she goes

farther than my book, and she's got everything very heavily documented. I

think you'll be very interested in this. Um, I have a copy of it right here,

somewhere. Um, but, uh, do--you don't think too much about teaching?

0: Um, no. I haven't thought about teaching; not at all.

B: Uh-huh. Uh, do you have any objections to the teaching profession? Do you

think it's too political maybe, or doesn't pay enough, or. .

0: It's--it doesn't really pay enough to--for what a teacher has to do. Uh,

there's a lot of work involved in being a teacher.

B: Right. That's true. Sort of like a woman's job, as the saying goes. It's

from sun to sun--no, a man's job goes from sun to sun, but a woman's job is

never done. That's about the same thing with a teacher's job. Um, what do

you think of, uh, college education for the average student? Do you think, uh,

maybe it should be offered or be available to everybody, or that everybody

should be encouraged, or should they be sort of, uh, weeded out by the counselors

and advized whether or not to attempt college work?

0: Well, I guess that can be best answered by saying that, uh, the society in

which we live has to have all sorts of people; doctors, teachers, professional


B: Um-hum.

LUM 90A 4

0: Um, farm laborers, industrial laborers, and just laborers in general; and if

everyone were able to get a college degree then, I don't believe they would

want to do very much labor, and if there's something bigger and better and

something that paid more.

B: Um-hum.

0: And I feel like if a person has the capacity to go to a college or university,

they should go and get a good education. But, as we know, everyone hasn't

got the capacity.

B: Right.

0: So, therefore, uh, they shouldn't go and fill up the space that could be filled

by a person that does have the capacity.

B: Right.

0: So, if they did, the person that has the capacity might be turned down.

B: How about the where-with-all; the do-re-mi? That's a factor too, isn't it?

0: Um-hum.

B: Uh, do you think we have some student who would fit into college but just simply

don't have the money to go?

0: I know of at least one person who, uh, was in that situation.

B: Um-hum.

0: And he wanted to go to college, but he didn't have the money, and I don't think

he would have applied for financial aid, like I did.

B: Umr-hum.

0: He's a sort of, I'ld say, self-made.

B: Um-hum.

0: And I guess he figured that's a hand-out of some sort, and he just didn't

want it.

B: Um-hum. Are you a Lumbee Indian?

0: Yes.

LUM 90A 5

B: Uh, do you think--do you think it's fairly easy for any student--not just

an Indian student--but do you think it's easy for just about any student to

get along at P.S.U., uh, or in this area let's say?

0: That depends upon--everyone has the same chance.

B: That's good.

0: Everyone.

B: We've heard some talk about a lack of proper report between P.S.U. and the

Indian communittee which surrounds it, and, uh, I wish you would comment on

that. Of course, don't comment on anything you don't want to. We don't want

to press you into talking about anything you don't want to, but in as much as

you're a graduate, uh, uh, you--you probably don't feel any apprehension about,

uh, anything that anybody could possibly do to you, and I don't know that you

would have felt it anyway, but, uh, we run into something like that once in a

while. Uh, you know, students are a little bit reluctant to talk of anything

connected with the administration or policies, or that sort of thing. Would

you rather not comment on that?

0: I will comment. Uh, so, the administration, like all administrations, is

concerned with the University campus, period.

B: Right.

0: And, as far as, uh, the campus, or the administration of the campus trying to

get along in the community, they just--they do not do it.

B: Um-hum.

0: But they have--they've set up one program now out at the University.

B: Um-hum.

0: The Human Resources Center headed by Ed Watkins.

B: Um-hum.

0: And he is now the man that gets out into the community and sort of--public

relations man.

LUM 90A 6

B: Um-hum.

0: And, I think he's doing a very good job with the children. .

B: Does he recruit Indian students? Is that part of his duties do you think$

urging Indian students to enroll?

0: Urging Indian students to enroll in the University?

B: Yes, here.

0: No. That's--that's not, uh, part of the work that he's doing.

B: Uh-huh.

0: As far as urging students to enroll in the University, the only thing that I

know of that the administration is doing would, uh, be to send copies of the

catalog--the University catalog to counselors in various schools, and then the

student, if he plans to go to a University, he just chooses the University

he wants to go to.

B: Um-hum.

0: He isn't, I'ld say, coached into going to a certain university.

B: Um-hum.

0: Uh, we have a organization on campus--American Indian Student Association,

and last week some of the members went to, um, Pembroke Senior High and to

Prospect High School, and tried to encourage students to come to Pembroke

State University.

B: Um-hum.

0: And at the same time, they were also trying to get the students interested

in the Association. So there was a double function ont their part.

B: Um-hum. This was purely a student function?

0: This is a student function.

B: Uh-huh. Uh, as you probably know, there are universities and colleges and

not all of them, but some of them, who are very proud to have Indian students
and are very active in recruiting them and getting scholarships for them,

LUM 90A 7

promising Indian students--uh, do we have any kind of program like that--this

out here do you think? That you know of?

0: I don't of any program like that.

B: Um-hum. Uh, well, uh, how do you think students feel generally about Old Main?

Uh, I imagine Indian students are, uh, have some sentimental attachment, or had

some sentimental attachment to Old Main, uh, the building which, uh, was

gutted by fire of unknown origin a few weeks ago. Uh, did you know we had

a controversy which raged for months and months over, um, the possibility of

restoring the building and preserving it. It was very difficult, I imagine,

to take a neutral position, whether you were articulate about it or not. I

imagine everybody had feelings--strong feelings, or, uh, shallow feelings or

something. Did you have any particular feelings here, or were you too busy

working, or what?

0: Well, I wasn't really too busy. Um, I felt like, before Old Main was des-

troyed by fire, that it should be saved, and our organization, as a whole,

felt like it should be saved.

B: Um-hum.

0: And I think, uh, at least 90 percent, if not more, of the Indian people in

Robeson County and surrounding counties, thought it should be. And, now,

after fire has blazed through it, I think it even has a better chance of

being saved, but I believe that will cut down on cost, 'cause we're going to

have to go into it and tear this stuff--tear most of this stuff out anyway.

B: Um-hum, the wood and stuff.

0: The wood and 'cause it was rotten.

B: Um-hum.

0: Termites were eating it up.

B: Um-hum.

0: I think that the fire really did some good.

LUM 90A 8

B: Um-hum. Do you think the walls were cracked by this fire?

0: Um, from reports the only wall that was cracked was, I believe it was the

back wall, was the only one that was cracked.

B: Uh-huh.

0: The other three are still solid.

B: Um-hum. Do you think students are given an equal opportunity at, uh, P.S.U.

today? Black, White, and Indian students? Um, that's a kind of a general--

maybe a--ah over-general question, uh, do you have any comments at all here?

I mean on observations of a period of four years that you attended?

0: An equal opportunity.

B: Yes, everything considered. Not only in classrooms but participation in sports--

all areas. Clubs and so on.

0: Well, in certain clubs, uh, it's not a equal opportunity thing there, so,

closed off--it's a general understanding.

B: Um-hum. I see.

0: All White members, or--although our club--in the constitution it says all

interested persons are invited to attend. I believe on campus it's a general

understanding that only, uh, Indians attend. The same thing with the Black

Student Organization.

B: Un-hum.

0: There's a general understanding there. But in other--in other areas, like in

the Student Government Association, it's pretty hard to break in to this

organ--it's pretty hard to break in to the Student Government. Like the, uh,

I've been out there for three years, and during those three years, up until

now, there had only been one Indian student in the Student Government. He was

a Senator, and this year we, the Indian students, it seemed to get interested.

B: Um-hum.

0: All of a sudden. And we put three senators in, and we also ran a write-in vote

LUM 90A 9

for President and Vice-President, and that polled a hundred and twenty-six

votes out of about 800.

B: Um-hum.

0: That.was all that voted, and that was--that was. .

B: That's kind of poor participation though, isn't it?

0: That is poor, but it's the best participation that we've had since I've been

out there. 800 voters.

B: Uh-huh.

0: Just seems like the students got interested this year.

B: Um-hum.

0: Decided to vote.

B: How do you explain that, or do--do you explain it?

0: Yes, um, they don't care.

B: Sort of indifferent, right?

0: I guess they figure it's too much time to stop by the polling place and mark

a few names.

B: Uh-huh. Do you think the fact that some of the students, or a good many of

them commute, and therefore it's--they're not as close to the institution as,

perhaps, as we are? Do you think this would have some effect on that?

0: That could be a factor. They might look upon it as just, uh, a place they

come at a certain time to get an education. Stay a few hours and then leave,

and, uh, they don't have time for anything else, or they don't want to make

the time. They got other things they want to do instead of stay around there

for a few minutes. Like the students who live on campus, they have, I believe

they have closer ties with the institution than we who live off campus.

B: Um-hum.

0: Although, as for myself, although I've graduated, I still feel like I belong

to the institution.

LUM 90A 10

B: Right.

0: You know, I don't really--I don't want to break away from it, so. .

B: Do you plan to be a member of the Alumni Association?

0: Would I--yes, I believe I will.

B: Um-hum. Um, if there was something else there you'd like to change--you had

the power to change--just one thing you had the power to change, no matter

what, what would you,change? I know this is a theoretical question, but just

imagine you are rubbing Aladin's lamp and the Genie appears and says what is

your wish with regard to P.S.U.? How would you answer?

0: I would--I would get rid of all racial prejudice. On campus it is definitely

known. You can feel it.

B: Um-hum.

0: Like students from around here, when a Indian student passes them, they

look the other way, they lower their head or something like this.

B: Um-hum.

0: But, the students from up north, further west, or maybe down south, they don't

do this. Only the students from around here.

B: Students from the county around. .

0: Right. Correct. Uh-huh.

B: Look, we're talking about White students, how about Black students?

0: Well, the Black students and Indians, they get along very well. But also,

there's a racial prejudice between the Whites and the Blacks.

B: Uh-huh.

0: And the Whites and the Indians. But the Blacks and the Indians, they get

together--they get along together real good.

B: Do you think a White student has a better chance of enrolling, uh, than a

Black or Indian student? For any reason? I'm not accusing--asking you to

accuse anybody. Uh, but can you see any, or have you observed anything like

LUM 90A 11

this at all?

0: Since I've been out, the University--I haven't observed any of this. It--anyone

who wants to get in and has the grades, seems like they can get in.

B: Um-hum. But you do have to pass--is it the S.A.T. test?

0: The S.A.T. test, yes.

B: Uh-huh. What is the score you have to pass in to make--the minimum score?

0: Uh, it was 750 when I took the test. I think it's gone to 800.

B: Uh-huh. What do you think about this? Do you think, uh, the veterans

requirements should be raised, or lowered, or remain as they are, or what?

0: I think the entrance requirements should remain as it is. Uh, 'cause on a

percentile scale it--Pembroke State University is in the 13th percentile.

B: Um-hum.

0: We figured--we figured this up in class one day. The 13th percentile.

B: That's very interesting. Do you think there's a gap between our schools--

I say our schools because most of the Indian population is located in the

Robeson County system or about 55, maybe 65 percent, somewhere in there. Uh,

do you think there's a gap between the Robeson County system, and their

standards--their level of scholarship, and the entrance requirements? Is

there a gap between--should be filled? Or do you think our system is, uh,

roughly equal to other systems in the county? The five other systems.

0: I think our system is geared to the entrance requirements that the the Univer-

sity--they--the system teaches the student what he has to know--what he should

know, and all the teachers can do is try to get the curriculum across to the


B: Right.

0: And then it's up tothe student to do what he can to learn it.

B: Uh-huh.

0: And do the best he can with it. Uh, when he gets to high school, that's when

LUM 90A 12

he really gets down to studying when he should. The students who plan to go

on to college, they begin studying when they get in high school.

B: Uh-huh.

0: And this is where the curriculum should be geared--leading up to the Univer-

sity curriculum.

B: Um-hum.

0: And I think now, that, uh, the schools are beginning to realize this, and I

think they're doing something about it.

B: Do you think the communittee itself has been, uh, aroused in this direction?

Do you think they're more--do you think they're -exerting any pressure or

anything, or soliciting improvements, or anything like this? Do you think--

what I want to ask you really is, do you think the Indian communittee has

anything to do with the improvement?

0: Um, that's a hard question. Uh, I think. .

B: I was just, uh, asking for your own opinion. You know, would they. .

0: I think they would have an effect on the student.

B: Um-hum.

0: Because people are beginning to realize that, um, it's hard to get by without

a college education. When you get a college education, it's hard enough.

B: Right.

0: But without it, it's even rougher. And they're beginning to apply pressure

on the student.

B: Um-hum.

0: As the students begin to learn more, the curriculum, I do believe, will begin

to get--to get a little harder. It'll change--modernize--get new books and


B: Um-hum.

0: That, uh, it's--it's a known fact that northern schools are more modernized than

LUM 90A 13

the southern schools. They have the better text books, better equipment and

all of this, and I think that the southern schools are beginning to modernize

and, and this could be indirectly due to the parents.

B: Um-hum. Do you think the Indian parents are more interested now than ever in

furthering the education of their children?

0: I think they are. They want their children to live better than they did, and

they know the only way to do that is to get a college education.

B: Do you think, uh, factors of so called double voting is a significant factor

in the control of--lack of control of Indian schools--traditional Indian

schools by Indians? Um, do you think this, uh, is fair, or have you thought

about this particular issue? It's been pretty much in the news recently,

which is why I'm asking.

0: Yes, I've thought about double voting, and I disapprove. I don't think that

parents in the city school system should vote for the county school system.

If they have to have it like this, I think that parents in the county school

system should also get to vote for the school board in the city school system,

and I do not believe that the parents in the city school system would want

to stand for this.

B: Um-hum.

0: I think they would break the double voting by taking this move, instead of the

move they have taken by adding four more members to the board. This just

is--this just isn't going to satisfy the people. It hasn't satisfied me.

B: Has it really changed anything? This compromise--so called compromise because

it--or is it actually law now? Has it been adopted?

0: I don't know whether it's law yet, but I don't see how it can change anything.

B: Uh, how about, um, discipline on campus? Do you think, uh, of course, do you

have any point of reference? Have you ever thought about, say, discipline

on campus, and disciplinary requirements, and those of other institutions?

LUM 90A 14

Uh, do you think, uh, ours is more liberal than those of other institutions or

more reserved or what? That's before they were called terms.

0: Well, before--before this year it was very reserved; as on, on other institutions

then, if I'm correct, and I think I am, the dorms--boys and girls live-in dorms--


B: Um-hum.

0: On our institution they have dorms for boys and dorms for girls, and before this

year the boys couldn't go above the first floor in the girls' dorm.

B: Uh-huh.

0: Just this semester they took down the sign in the dorm that said no boys allowed

beyond the first floor, and now they can go all the way to the--be at the sixth


B: Um-hum. Do you think this 'thou shalt not' proposition sort of, uh, increases

a fellow's desire to, you know, go for the barrier at this point? Maybe that's

not a fair question.

0: Well it increased mine. I really wanted to get into the dormaand up to the

fifth floor I--I'ld go.

B: You could go without being detected, couldn't you?

0: Correct. Just sneak right on in.

B: Uh, do you have, uh, do you have house-mothers and house--I don't guess you'ld

call it a house-father. Gosh darn.

0: No, the boys' dorms don't have any men; they have hall counselors.

B: Uh-huh.

0: And the girls have house-mothers.

B: Uh-huh.

0: They're strict.

B: Do they have--do they have to get permission if they're going out on a date, or

something like this? Would you know?

LUM 90A 15

0: Well, I know they used to have to check out, and also, before this year, they'd

have to check in before twelve.

B: Um-hum.

0: But now they can stay out as long as they want, and when they get ready to come

in, they have to come in on the half hour; one-thirty, two o'clock, and the, uh,

security guard will let let them in.

B: Wonder what brought this about, uh, this is sort of a liberalization trend, however

small or large. One, uh, were there pressures from the students, uh, through the

student newspaper, or petitioning, or, uh, campus officials, or what? Was, was

there anything overt like this, or was it something that, uh, was just decided

on by the top brass?

0: There had--there had to be pressure from the students cause the ones that were

living on campus were all the time talking about, uh, they couldn't visit girls

in the dorm, and the girls talking about their having to be in at twelve, and

all this, uh, I would guess that they did apply pressure, and in the student

publication there's a piece in there just called the Phantom.

B: Um-hum.

0: And he--the Phantom always writing about things like this.

B: Um-hum.

0: He just writes--he writes on what the, uh, students feel.

B: Uh-huh. In other words he--he expresses himself anonymously or expresses, uh,

things he's found on the--in the student body anonymously; complaints and pet

peevs and this sort of thing?

0: Correct.

B: Uh, is the student newspaper controlled in any way by the faculty in any degree,

do you think?

0: I don't--I don't know that.

LUM 90A 16

B: Um-hum. Do you know how the editor is selected, and this sort of thing?

0: The editor. .

B: Is he elected or selected by the faculty, or what?'

0: Uh, the students select the, uh, editor.

B: Uh-huh. Uh, he's in a pretty favored position then, isn't he? Uh, in the student

body and the--does this make him, do you think this makes him feel, uh, as a

tsar, to listen to the complaints of students and to act on it, that he feels

that a various injustice or something of this nature, or need for improvement in

relation to the students or, is it a--is it an open sort of thing where you can

voice your grievances and, uh, expect to be at least heard? This is what I'm. .

0: Yes, you can write in to the student newspaper and they will publish--they will

publish it, and I don't know whether they censor it or not.

B: Um-hum. I was just wondering if, uh, in such a case, uh, you might be reprimended

by somebody if they disagreed with you, or something, or evoked criticism, or

or something like this, and do you know of any such occasions?

0: Uh, I just saw one piece in the paper which criticized, uh, earlier publications.

B: Um-hum.

0: And that's the only case that I have, uh. .

B: Of any complaints?

0: Correct.

B: Is the letters to the editor columns, uh, pretty well filled up, or, or rather

scarce as a, as a general thing?

0: They usually publish, um, two or three.

B: Um-hum. Do you think they publish all they get, or select them?

0: I don't really know that.

B: Um-hum. Uh, the reason I am asking you this and, uh, of course you won't have to--

don't want you to answer anything you don't want to--I seem to sense a certain

amount of fear on campus about expressing opinions among some of the students. Uh,

LUM 90A 17

maybe--maybe I, uh, was reading it wrong, but it seems to be, uh, a sense of

fear and I'm wondering if this fear is the same kind you would feel on any

campus. Of course, on some campuses you wouldn't feel any at all, but do you

think there is actually fear of, uh, you know, somebody might cut your grades,

or, uh, take some other kind of reprisals against you if you came out against

somebody or something--defended somebody?

0: I think that is a possibility. I know of one case, and I won't mention any


B: Right.

0: The--there's a girl--she received an 'F' in a course and, from what she said,

what she told me, she had a 'B' average. The professor gave her an 'F', and

she was to do her student teaching this coming fall, and now she can't do her

student teaching 'cause this professor has, uh, set it up so that she cannot

finish her major until next fall--fall of '74.

B: Um-hum.

0: Would be the only time that she could student teach in this area, and this wasn't

because of something she did, but it was because the professor did not like her,

uh, parents--one of her parents.

B: Um-hum. This is very sad, isn't it?

0: Very sad.

B: Will she..

0: So now, she'll now have to go into another major area.

B: Um-hum. Uh, it's very sad that somebody can exercise that kind of power and

that they're willing to do it, and they might actually do it, and the students

believe this. They'll tend to be inhibited in what they say and print, don't

you think?

0: I think they would. One instance could come from dislike of a student's parents.

There's no telling what could come from criticism of one of the faculty members,

LUM 90A 18

or something that he was associated with.

B: Uh-huh.

0: Might try to get 'em completely thrown out of school, if it was possible.

B: Um-hum. One student told me recently that--who happened to be a friend of mine--

that she was, uh, so to speak by some of the faculty members because of

being my friend, and so I called up the admissions office and I said is there

anything in your catalog that says any of your students can't be a friend of Lew

Barton and graduate? But not many people go to this extreme. I mean, not many

people even--not many students, I don't think, even report that. Do you think

they do, or are they sort of afraid to talk about it for fear that they might--

you know somebody--if you're under somebody's control, they can figure out a

way of, uh, disqualifying you if they really want to and their efforts are low

enough. Don't you think most students feel this way, or am I assuming too much?

0: Yes, the, uh, faculty can always find a way to get back at a student. A student

has no way to get to the faculty--back at the faculty.

B: Uh-huh.

0: Unless they can absolutely prove what they state.

B: Uh-huh.

0: In the instance of this girl getting an 'F' in the course when she should have

gotten a 'B', she went to the administration from the academic dean up to the

president and the chancellor.

B: Uh-huh.

0: And there was nothing they could do.

B: Um-hum.

0: So, she just asked to go into another major area.

B: Uh-huh. This student did express some fear, and, uh, student--this same student

was, uh, forbidden to go to a political rally, and, uh, didn't go. They wanted

to go, so that, uh, the student but didn't go, because that was--it was

LUM 90A 19
wisdom really for this student not to go. Uh, have you, uh, do you think you
have this sort of thing with relation to politicians and the political rallies in
general, or do you think this might have been an isolated instance, or what?
0: I believe it was an isolated incident that's all. When I get ready to go somewhere
I just go.
B: Um-hum.
0: Uh, the faculty doesn't have anything to do with where I go. That's my personal
B: Well, you're a member of a--an organization that, uh, might help that, uh, don't
you think? Does this student organization--Indian student organization--carry
prestige also?
0: Not yet, but it's
B: Uh-huh. Do you have any political clubs on campus--like political science majors
and that sort of thing?
0: Uh, they--the two, uh, national parties have clubs on campus--democratic, republican.
B: Um-hum. That's good. Uh, once things start rolling in a certain direction it's
generally hard to stem the flow of the tide..
B: On the other side of this tape I was interrupted by the tape running out and I
was right in the middle of a question, and if I can recall it correctly--I was
saying once the--once a movement starts in a certain direction, or sentiment
starts in a certain direction, it's kind of hard to stem the flow of the tide,
uh, but do you, do you think that enough students--if they were interested--could
change a trend on campus, or, or did you answer that question already?
0: Well, I haven't answered it on tape, and, uh, I think if you could get enough
students interested you could change almost anything that students wanted to change.
B: Uh-huh.
0: But the problem is getting the students interested, because most of them would
L ,_________________________

LUM 90A 20

think that the problem did not pertain to them.

B: Uh-huh.

0: Therefore they wouldn't be interested in it. Like most of the problems on the

Pembroke State University campus pertain to students who live on campus.

B: Uh-huh.

0: Therefore the commuters are not concerned with the problems.

B: Uh-huh, and that's a large percentage of the students body as, uh, we mentioned

a while ago, isn't it?

0: Yes, sir.

B: Uh, how about inter-racial dating on campus, is that generally frowned on do you


0: If, uh--I frown on inter-racial dating myself, but if a person wants to do it,

that's them. Let them go ahead.

B: Um-hum. Do you think there's much of it done on campus?

0: Quite a bit as far as I could see.

B: Uh, since we have three races I guess we need to try to establish, uh, uh,

White-Indian, Black-Indian, Black-White, three different kinds. Which would be

prevalent would you think?

0: White-Indian, Indian-White, Black-White.

B: How about Indian-Black?

0: I haven't observed that on campus.

B: Uh-huh. Uh, do you, you don't get any criticism or students who do this, um,

inter-racial dating don't get any overt criticism when they are seen together,

maybe walking hand in hand on campus?

0: Maybe from the personnel on campus, but from the students in general, they don't


B: Um-hum. Uh, there's apathy there too. Maybe this is a healthy apathy. Do you

think so?

LUM 90A 21

0: Maybe so.

B: Uh, I was thinking about what you said about letting other people decide this

for themselves, believe that and you wouldn't want

to is that right? Leave it to the individual that

they're happy.

0: That they're happy, yes. It's all right with me.

B: Uh, how about, uh, student morays. Uh, if there is such a thing. Uh, student

morals. You read a lot of stuff and I, I do call it stuff, about, um, lower

morals today on, on, on college and university campuses. Do you think this is

true of P.S.U. campus, or do you think we're just as darn good out there as

anybody else, or, or worse, or what?

0: I think that it's true of any campus where you have almost two thousand people.

Morals of the students are going to be different ranging from low to high, and

I think it's true of all campuses.

B: Um-hum. Uh, how about religious organizations? Do you have those on campus here?

0: Yes, we have quite a few of those; Baptist Student Organization, there's one they

call Joy--J-O-Y. I don't know what that means. There's the Newman Club.

B: Do these seem to be very popular on campus--religious organizations, or have you

observed. .

0: I haven't, I haven't observed any religious organizations.

B: Um-hum. Are you dating, yourself? Is that a personal question?

0: Yes. I'll answer it. Uh, students, uh, have to forego some of this, I'm sure.
They have to be hitting the books when they would like to be dating. Uh, do you

think this affects students today, unless it's a very bright student

who can lose time and still. .

0: Well, it's never held me back. Uh, I study during the week and on Sundays; Friday

S and Saturday I take off. I

B: You take those for relaxation.

LUM 90A 22

0: Yes, sir.

B: How are the athletes, and, uh, I understand we have great athletes at P.S.U. Uh,

is my assumption correct from your point of view?

0: Yes, that's correct.

B: Do you think--what kind of inducements do they get? You know every institution

tries to get, you know, top quality talent. Uh, they make, they do make, some

of them make certain concessions and they offer some--in some form of inducements.
0: Um, I don't really know anything about, uh, the scholarships the athletes get.

B: Which form of recreation on campus, do you think is the most successful and the

most victorious. This is one way P.S.U. really shined last night.

0: Uh, track and baseball. They're pretty close.

B: Track and baseball. Um-hum. Now do these sports attract great crowds--reasonable


0: Baseball attracts quite a few, but track usually attracts the friends of the

persons that are, uh, running in the meet--participating in it.

B: Do we have some, some really good track runners? Do we have really good athletes

in other departments?

0: Oh yes. Uh, Vic Dorell is the best we have in the three-mile run.

B: Uh-huh.

0: He's a Lumbee Indian.

B: Um-hum.

0: I believe he's number--number five or number six in the state.

B: Um-hum. That's great.

0: And then there's Dennis Graham. He's a Black and he's at least one of the fastest--

one of the two fastest men in the 100-yard dash in North Carolina.

B: That's really great. Um, if you--since you've been through college, and, un, you

know, you are getting out now and you're, you're feeling--do you feel any regret?

Did you get accustomed to things that you hate to give up and go into some other

LUM 90A 23

pursuit? Does it bother you any?

0: Um-hum. I have only one regret and I won't talk about it.

B: Okay. Do you have any advice you would give any the other students but particularly

the Lumbee Indian students who were thinking of entering P.S.U. or who were

enrolling at P.S.U.?

0: I would just tell them to get in their minds--put it in their--to their minds

that they can make it. Never even entertain the thought that you're going to

flunk out, and don't think about quiting. Just go right straight on through.

B: Uh-huh. That's great. I want to thank you a lot; unless, do you have something

you'ld like to add to what we've discussed? I'm afraid I did ask you some, uh,

personal questions, there was some searching questions that I am interested, and

we're all interested in your opinion because this is a study of the life style

of our people, and of our ways; hoping to improve that--whatever needs improving.

I don't think anything is ever so perferfect it doesn't need to be improved. Uh,

we certainly appreciate this. Is there anything you'ld like to add to what was

already covered?

0: Well, I think that the--the uni--Pembroke State University on a whole is a fine


B: Um-hum.

0: But there are some Indian students who applied for financial aid--a certain amount

to cover the expenses of tuition and books and they didn't get it, and I know for

a fact they needed it.

B: Um-hum.

0: They worked for well, all three or four months of their first semester and this

past semester, and the money they worked out, they had to just turn around and

give it back to the institution for tuition and books.

B: Um-hum.

0: And therefore, they didn't have any money o4ah;> on.

B: Um-hum.

LUM 90A 24

0: When you have an institution all day long that, you get a little bit hungry,

and if you don't got the money to buy food, you just have to do without until

you get home, and that's no fun. I done it a lot myself and I don't like it,

and they don't like it, and I think the institution could do something about

it if they would try.

B: Do you think that, uh, is there a possibility of, uh, getting enough work for

most of the students who need to work?

0: Yes, there's always something to do around the university.

B: Um-hum.

0: Like in the mail room where I work, we could have used at least one more and that

was We actually needed two.

B: When you have to work after hours like this, does this cut into your study time--

into your recreation time?

0: Certainly.

B: That's pretty dumb question isn't it?

0: It cuts into recreation time. That's about all.

B: Um-hum. I'm glad it wasn't any dumber than that.

0: Right.

B: It was a good answer. You sort of redeamed me there. Uh, do you have any other

comments you'd like to make in any other line, anything at all--anything you

want to say is always--anything you might discuss?

0: I think we've covered it all pretty well. What I could think of covering we've

covered it.

B: A last question occurred to me, and that is a criticism that's been made to the

affect that the institution--institution is a little old fashioned in its disciplinary

actions and its attitudes towards discipline. Uh, do you feel this way or do you

feel that this, um, criticism is unjust, or are you neutral, or what?

0: I think the institution's rules on discipline are all right. I never had any

LUM 90A 25

problem with it. Like I'm sure the boys in the dorm would like to get on the

outside, maybe down in the parking lot and drink their beers, but you're not

supposed to drink beer on the outside. You're supposed to be drink on the inside

and that's where you aught to be drink on campus.

B: Uh-huh.

0: Their rules on conduct are all right with me.

B: How about over forms of recreation in the area, say dancing. Do you have

adequate facilities for dancing and this sort of thing?

0: We have adequate facilities but the student government doesn't give enough.

B: I'm afraid I don't understand. The student government controls this?

0: The Student Government Association sponsors the dances.

B: I see. I see what you mean. They say too much--too much work and not enough play

makes Jack a dull boy, that's a very little

0: Very true.

B: Well, I certainly do thank you. You've been very cooperative and, uh, very helpful

and very informative. We certainly do appreciate it, and I want to thank you

for the University of Florida and the Doris Duke Foundation. Thank you so very

much for honoring us with this interview. It's been most interesting and informa-


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