Interview with Arnold Locklear May 21 1973

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LUM 84A

Arnold Locklear

Interviewed by Lew Barton

May 21, 1973



L: This is May 21, 1973. I am Lew Barton Interviewing for the Doris Duke

Foundation American Indian Oral History Program under the auspices of the

University of Florida's History Department, Dr. Samuel L. Proctor, Director.

Today we are privileged to be in the office of the United States Indian

Claims Commission here in Washington, D. C. where we are interviewing the

first three of five Lumbee Indian law students who have graduated this

week. Already we have interviewed two of the three law students with us

today and new we are entering into our third interview. Would you mind

telling us, sir, what your name is? I know, but we want to ask you for

the sake of our listeners.

A: Arnold Locklear. Arnold Locklear. That's A-r-n-o-l-d.

L: And what is your address?

A: Route 3, Maxton.

L: Uh-huh. You live then in what I call the prospect area, or is it a bit

farther out?

A: It would be a bit farther out and to the outer limits of the Pembroke

township and what is known as the Brook settlement, which is a short

distance southwest of Harper's Ferry Baptist CHurch. Ah...more precisely

at the junction of 17 and ah...Highway 17 and U.S. Highway 74.

L: Thank you very much. That's a very good answer and it reflects your

training, I'm sure, to be very observant. How do you feel now that

you're graduated, that you have graduated from law school?






2



A: Well, after three years it feels really fantastic to know that the

books will not have to be sought from day to day and the library will

not have to be a common environment and I'm only now looking forward to

the bar. Hopefully, that will be successful which will be in...will come

in July and assuming that's successful, I can really say that my

orientation into law, which has been a total three years in law school

will at that time in affect be behind me. But not until that time

can I truefully say that the whole law school experience is finished.

L: Well, I certainly want to congratulate you and wish you God's speed

in your profession, as I've said already. This is the field in which

our people, the Lumbee Indians of North Carolina, are desperately in

need of talent, a professional talent. And it's been inadequate in

the years gone by and sometimes not trustworthy always. We are so

happy that...for seeing five of our students graduated on time. This

is fantastic really.

A: It certainly is and as you say in our area with the Lumbee Indians,

in particular, in fact right now, as never before, though in the past

we have needed Indian lawyers in particular, now it's more prominent

or more marked than ever that we do need Indians and that decision

making positions are open. Legal problems that now directly affect

Indians as a group are being presented that need to be resolved and

it's a time in which we actually need, as I said moreso than ever,

though in the pst we have needed Indians to make such decisions, now

we do need Indians to help to solve our problems that directly affect

Indians today.

L: That's so true and this is one of the things that makes us all so happy

that...you can always expect to get sympathetic understanding from one

of our own people. Maybe this sounds a little bit prejudice and maybe






3



it is. But if it is, I guess I'll have to stand by it. I know for many

years'I've personally dreamed of the day when we would have adequate law

talent. My father always wanted me to be a lawyer, but I just didn't have

talent in that direction I suppose. Our people have long dreamed of the

time when they would have, and certainly this is going to add to it. Let's

get into your biography a bit, if you don't mind. Who are your father...

ah'..who are your father and mother?

A: My father was the late Chamis Locklear, now deceased since 1956. And my

mother is Mrs. Gretch Hatcher, and we, as I indicated earlier, live in the

Brooks settlement, and have..and that has been our home since birth. And

I hopefully, when I finish my law school experience, that is after the July

bar exam, I will be returning to that area, to perhaps raise my own

family.

L: Well, raise...you know Prospect is my old camping ground too. This is

where I was born and brought up and so we're blood brothers, I'm afraid.

Whether we likes it or not.

A: With only the Lumber River to separate us.

L: Right. And some good stuff comes out of the Prospect area

A: THat's true. It's correct.

L: I interviewed the young man several days ago, probably a cousin of yours.

But for some reason it seems to me that the Prospect community, which

is a number of Indian communities, has always been progressive, hard-

working, competitive, alert, civic-minded, all these things that

characterize our community. It was from this that the idea for the

Lumbee Recreation Center was born, wasn't it?

A: That's right.








4



L: Tell me a bit more, are you married?

A: No, I'm single yet.

L: R hlly?

A: And hopefully within a year or so after ah...as I indicated earlier

the bar exam, I hope I can find a fair maiden to be my lawful wife.

L: Well, good. Just interviewing Mr. Chavis, he's in just about the same

predicament. You don't mind this being called a predicament, do you?

A: I think it's a fortunate status.

L: I guess we may sorta disagree there. Well, no I'm kidding, of course.

But of course these interviews are a little light and serious at the

same time, because we got together and so to celebrate this singular

event in the history of our people and it's great to get together

with you guys aid it gives me a great deal of personal satisfaction

to be with allcE you and especially ...ah...by George one of the group

is from, not only the Lumbee Indian community at large, but my own

specific dear old Prospect. I love Prospect.

A: Yes, it's a you mentioned earlier, it's an area that the people

seem more or less self-determinative in the sense that they desire to

reach a goal and in the sense that they seem to be more independent

than other areas of the county or the Indian community. And I guess

this comes from our past history in that area in the sense that we

are almost one hundred percent Indian, in the sense that we never in

the past have had to in any sense of the word to fight in white community,

or the black community, because we could never look to these areas to

receive any aid or assistance. Now, therefore, I can only speculate

that we became independent by depending on ourselves and I don't know





5



that this is a correct observation, as I said I can only speculate

and it's very prevalent that people in the Prospect area are first

aggressive people and they are independent people.-And this is, as I

said, that independence it self stems from self determination.

L: Right, and now we are going to have a lawyer from the Prospect area.

Could you...Could you remember some of the leaders and other outstanding

people that come from this area? Could you name a few together maybe?

A: Well, perhaps, Mr. Moore.

L: Ah..this is Mr. Reverend Moore.

A: Uh-huh....that I helped...

L: W. R., ah...W. L. Moore?

A: That I helped to...

L: That he was the first Lumbee Indian teacher...he is the man who...

A: We have a building on Pembroke State University campus, I believe...

L: Named for him.

A: Right.

L: Moore Hall.

A: Right. THis is...Also coming from the Prospect community is Professor

Adolph Dial, now with Pembroke State University and has been for his

almost all of his professional career and been a significant leader in
Indian
the/community. And ah...

L: How about Mr. Harvard Moore?

A: Harvard Moore is now with the Robertson County Board of Education

and will be a significant input in policy decision on the county

level for the Lumbee Indians in particular.

L: Yea, and you know, remember, I believe, if I'm not mistaken and correct

me if I am, that it seems to me that this is where the Lumbee Recreation






6



Center was born. Tbis is where the idea took root and was born. This

was a great recreational facility which was erected several years

ago at the cost of a million dollars or so.

A: Approximately, and singly Mr. Lester Bullard from the Prospect com-

munity was a significant figure in that and helped to bring about

significant leadership and direction to the purpose of, ah...to the

project as a whole. At the same time coming from the Prospect community

we have a county commissioner, Mr. Herman Dial, who now, as I said

would be the ah...ah...the commissioners, Robertson County Commissioners

and all this represents considerable leadership.

L: Oh, yes. It does, indeed. Can you think of anymore?

A: The only thing I can say or mention further, off the top of my mind,

is you, Mr. Barton. You've contributed significantly in expressing

the voice of the Indian. I make that "Indian," of Robertson County

in expressing the views and opinions of the really nitty-gritty, if

I can use that term indiscriminately, opinion of the Indians as a

group in newspaper editorials and different periodicals and means of

communication that have outside the Indian community expressed our

inner feelings, I might say.

L: Well, I'm certainly am appreciative of those kind words. I don't feel

that I've done all that much, but however much or however little we've

been able to accomplish, it was with the help of our Indian people and,

of course, naturally we are glad to do whatever we can. These people,

in and around Prospect, as opposed to people in other parts of the

Indian community, and when we say Indian community at large, we mean

a large Indian community, don't we?

A: We mean approximately 40,000 people scattered across the radius, I

guess you might say of approximately of about 30 to 35 to 40 miles

radius.





7





L: Right, and Prospect is about the center of that settlement, you might

say...the Indian settlement.

A: It could be referred to sometimes as a nucleus, or not necessary...it's

not necessarily a nucleus, a hard core, 100 percent Indian community.

This is to the exclusion of blacks as well as whites.

L: Right. You can travel in any direction you like and you can go for

miles and miles and miles and you never see anybody but Indian families.

A: That's correct.

L: People are surprised to newspaper reporters and the like when they

ride through and find that this is so. They were actually in Indian

territory. And here is where it all is.

A: And it's...

L: This is the center.

A: And another unique feature of this area is the dialect that sometimes

astonishes people. That an Indian community within an Indian community

is markedly different in dialect.

L: Yes, and I think you and I reflect that somewhat don't you?

A: And with our conversation here tonight, it's basically compatible. Even

in psychology almost. I anticipate basically what in the Indian sense

of the word we're...as the conversation involved we might say almost.

And, of course, with the speech aspect itself as pronounced as it is,

it's really different and it's almost an Indian community, as I said

earlier, within an Indian community. And we here tonight with our friends

are separate from them, or not necessarily separate, but dialettically,

if I can use that term, not separate in the sense that we are alike

as opposed,,,or different from our other Indian friends that are Lumbees.






8





L: Uh-huh. Isn't that...I think that's very interesting. At least it is

to us, isn't it?

A: It certainly is.

L: Have you worked hard on trying to get rid of your Prospect accent? You

can ask me the same question too if you want.

A; Well, definitely not cause I'm proud of my heritage and the past,...well

within the past several years I've become to appreciate moreso than ever

my heritage. And at this point I'm actually trying to preserve as opposed

to destroy or do away with that which has made me. So I feel that I have

been so fortunate to have been made by my background, it would be an injustice

at this point to do away with that foundation that my whole life is based

on.

L: Right. I know what you mean, you know, being an English student, I tried

to polish up a bit, but I've never lost that, you know, Prospect accent.

And like you, I'm proud of it. I can hear anybody who speaks from our

own area and I know immediately if he's from Prospect or if he isn't.

This is something I can detect within the Indian community itself. A

friend of mine who is a girl and who belongs to another ethnic group

mentioned to me recently several...what she calls Lumbeeisms. I want

to quote this "Lumbeeism" to you and see if you remember hearing it used.

It's the word bes. For example, a girl sitting at Pembroke State

University said recently, "If this test bes as the test we had yesterday,

I don't know how I'm gonna past it." Now if it bes.

A: I've heard that term along with many other terms that are prevalent

in our area that I've never heard generally spoken in other areas,

and sometimes I, in looking at those and looking at some of the






9



historical or history books that I've read trace these things all the way

back to the early settlers that came over from John White's Lost

Colony from the Elizabethan English and it seems that the area in Prospect

in particular has been isolated to the extent that this area has

maintained more or less that culture, not necessarily culture but speech

pattern that came over from the old country, the old English in other

words.

L: Right.

A: And, I can see these things today more pronounced in the Prospect area

than any other area in the Indian communities or in the Prospect com-

munity, that is.

L: Right, and this word be, i.e.: "When I get home I be so tired, I can

hardly hold one...move one foot before another, I'm so tired. I

be so tired." Now, this is just one of many expressions like this.

Isn't it? Have you heard the word, for example, for porch? Have you

ever heard porch called by some other name besides porch?

A: That's the only term in Robertson County that I've ever heard it

referred to as is.

L: Well, I've heard it call piazza in some places. Tension for measurement

and things like this. We are gradually losing these things, aren't we?

A: That's true. I guess it might be the acculturation from of course...well,

naturally the acculturation from surrounding non-Indian origins. And

I believe that now would be the desire to preserve our heritage. It's

more important than ever that we maintain these things in the proper per-

spective.

L: Uh-huh. And not be ashamed of them. But you know, we've been taught

by formal education that, of course, we were to get away from these

things and improve our speech and so on. Of course, this is good, but







10



we still want to remember our Lumbeeisms, don't we?

A: That's correct.

L: Our Elizabethans, if you want to call it that. You know, for example,

I don't know...I doubt if this is a Lumbeeism, it's...well, it's probably

and Indianism as opposed to an Elizabethanism and that is the word you

use for measurement, that's mension. We say mension sometimes instead

of measurement. And if you're looking for something which means placed

up on the wall, for example, a picture, you say it's either barsome

or it's kinda whepsome. Have you ever heard those before?

A: I--those are common terms from my community.

L: Do you know what they mean?

A: Well, generally, the placement of the picture itself or the angle of the

picture itself.

L: Right, and if it's barsome, it means that it's flushed with the wall

and it's generally considered to be straight, but if it's kinda whoppin,

it's crooked, isn't it?

A: That's the general concept.

L: (Laugh) But these things are very interesting. Near the Prospect area

is a swamp, a great swamp which for many years was almost inpenetrable.

You could walk for, ah--oh gosh--hundreds of yards actually without even

touching ground because the growth, the undergrowth, was so thick. And

this was sorta a fearsome sort of swamp. And we would call it Beckusus

Bay. I've never known quite how to spell it, but I try to spell it the

way it sounds--B-e-c-k-u-s-u-s. Maybe you could give me a better

spelling for that. Is this the way you've always heard it?









11



A: That's--I believe I read in your book that term. Or if not in your

book, in some of your writings.

L: But you do know the bay I'm talking about, don't you?

A: Generally.

L: Yes, I know. That by--Mr. Will Locklear has cleared an enormous portion

of that bay, which in my early lifetime was inpenetrable, and he has

the richest, I daresay it is the richest, farm soil in this county, you

know. Our people are hardworking people, they don't mind tackling any-

thing. They work so very hard, for example, being brought up on the

farm in my early childhood. Sometimes I plowed all day for fiftycents

and I was darn lucky if I got that, but I was never any good at picking

cotton. I have never been able to pick 200 pounds of cotton in my life,

but I know people in the Prospect area who could do better than 500

pounds a day. Have you ever heard of one person picking 500 pounds of

cotton?

A: Not in particular. I know my mother, she's been and has picked as much

as 400 in one day.

L: Uh-huh.

A: But it has been said and I've heard through rumor, or by rumor of people

that had picked as much as 500.

L: Do you know Mrs. Alice, Mrs. Alice Bullard, well she was a Bullard before

she married...

A: Oh, yes...

L: ..and now is a Harris. Well, she---she has picked that much, I mean,

I've heard that very often, you know, from her own family that she picked

better than 500 pounds of cotton. And if a woman can do this...well, all






12





these things are unusual, aren't they, I mean...

A: And it seems as if we are from an unusual area in itself.

L: Right, and we've been isolated largely, a community that has been

isolated to the extent that we have preserved a lot perhaps of our

loyalty to each other. How about the tendency of the neighbors of the

community.

A: This has been...

L: Pitching together and helping each other, even now.

A: This seems to be more or leas a general trait in the area, even today,
other
as opposed to the/areas or Indian areas in the county. Our area in

itself has been isolated as we indicated earlier and even the school,


Prospect School and the other schools, elementary school and the

high school, it seems to be more or less a family kind of school,

a family of the community as a whole as opposed to a family by blood

line in itself and as sometimes referred to as 1.

but it trans...it goes through one, the bloodline and the community

as a whole itself is really together or in a fabric or framework you

might say. A mutual, a mutuality, and you do not find so much

division in the county. It's more or less in the group, the Prospect

group, it's more or less a clandescent kind of group of people. This is

the best way that I could possibly characterize the Prospect community,

is to say that it's in essence a clan kind of a group of people.

L: Right, the community is very closely knit, isn't it?

A: That's correct.






13



L: And they have a tendency to stick together in a clannish way. If

somebody is sick in the community, somebody is going to visit them

and sit up with them, if need be, bring them food, whatever. If

somebody butchers hogs, then the Prospect people have just about always

as they called it lived at home and boarded at the same place.

In other words, they raised a great deal of what they used, in the

garden and in the, you know, meats too, hogs and cows and chickens

and eggs.

A: So we have been an independent group of people.

L: Right, and they take pride in this. Whenever theirs something to

be done of a community nature, there even today, you find that people

sticking together, as they call it. I went by Prospect Methodist

Church, which is one of the finest churches in the county, as far as

the cost of the building and it's a fine building, brick building,

and they were raising money for something and I don't remember just

what it was, but people were coming along and they were writing

checks and they were doing this so freely as though it was something

they were doing for their own family and people would pull out a check-

book and write a hundred dollars and the guy who was taking the checks,

a friend of mine, I won't mention his name, but he was always, you know

he's been very good about things like this, about raising money. Now

are you going to give me a hundred dollars and walk away from here,

you know, and probably he'd end up getting $150 or more, you know, for

the church. You know, now look, this is for the church. And that's

about all he'd have to say, and you know, they shelled out more money.

Whatever it takes you know.

A: I believe this stems from a deep rooted sense of responsibility that's

in areas developed that's not questionable as to the purpose to be attained

by any funds that are contributed. It's a sense of trust and responsibility









14



that the group as a whole reposes in each other and the people

that accept this position assume the responsibility and it's almost

unquestionable that his performance will be commensurate with the

responsibility.

L: Right.

A: And it's a deep rooted sense of trust that has stemmed from this

area. And you generally don't find it in other areas and even in

areas outside the Prospect area in the Indian communities, you generally

don't find it. It's sorta unique that you do find it in this particular

area. Perhaps I am subjectively biased in making these statements.

L: Uh-huh. Well so am I perhaps, but these are the facts as I see them.

A: Right.

L: If somebody is sick, somebody's always going to come around and bring

some food or whatever. If somebody butchers a hog, or hogs, as they

do quite often, it isn't anything to share that meat with the neighbors,

you know. Even now, and perhaps this is the way it was done in the

overall Indian community yesterday, but much of the Indian community

have gotten away from this togetherness, but there's a sweet part of

it that still remains in the Prospect area even today and this just

does my heart good. How about you, does it make you feel good?

A: It really makes me feel good in the sense that I believe that in other

areas of our country and state and even county, the Prospect community

has found a way in contemporary times to adjust to changing needs and

at the same time maintain the community responsibility for taking care

of the community. Whereas in other areas of the county, or the state

and the nation at large, that means of perpetuating the community interest

itself as we have done in the Prospect area has not been maintained.









15



L: That's right.

A: And I don't know if it's an inate ability or if it's been by sheer

luck or whatever, but seemingly we have been able in that area to

exist in modern day society, and at the same time continue that

close nitty responsibility of taking care of our fellow man and

our immediate community. It's been a basic aspect of the Prospect

community in my lifetime and in times before me. And I'm just

glad to see that, that ah...it's a product or an element that exists

now that has been and hopefully it will ever continue to be. Though

I find this sense of looking after your neighbor in other communities

has disappeared.

L: Right.

A: And I don't know if it's genius on our part from our community, or

sheer luck, or whatever. But thank God we still have it there.

L: We've got the old human touch there, haven't we?

A: That's correct.

L: And we wouldn't think about anybody going hungry. In our community we've

heard about that...if somebody's heard about that, they'd get up at the

midnight hour and walk over there and carry them some food.

A: If this is an evil aspect of being clandescent, I wish to continue that

evil aspect if that's how you catagorize it.

L: Right. Right. I think this is a very human thing and people are so warm

and human that even, you know, when they...they have the most fantastic

gardens in that area too still that I know anything about. When you go to

a family's home and you're there during the lunch hour, they never cook

just enough for their own family or for that meal, they always cook enough

food so that anybody else that chances along will have food too and they






16



can eat. It's sorta a disgrace for a woman to cook just enough for

her bare needs. Do you bear me out on this?

A: I will bear you out on that and add to that, sorta expand on it, by

saying that the whole, the whole Prospect area is almost a self-sustaining

community in itself. Now if you go to the educational sense, educational

realm, Prospect school in particular is basically made up of the people

from Prospect community. As opposed to other areas within the Indian

realm, like Furgrouph, for example, the teachers that basically make up

Furgrouph come from Pembroke or the Prospect area to commute all the way

twenty to twenty-five miles away to the Furgrouph area. The same thing is

applied to Magnolia, wherethe teachers basically, the majority of the teachers,

commute from Pembroke or the Prospect area all the way up to the Magnolia

area to teach school on a day to day basis. But the Prospect area in itself,

the Prospect area in general is like I said a self-sustaining community.

This, it seems as if from this area, the development was early in time

and at the same time, as I mentioned earlier, the area has kept or maintained

extensive stability in its resistance to change and even down to the basics,

you might say, to looking after their fellow man. Really I can look at the

Prospect area and appreciate it from many points or view, and the fine leadership

that has come from the area. We have two lawyers hopefully from that area,

Chavis that graduated this year from,...ah, not Chavis, but ah...the Locklear,

Bullard, next year, that will graduate from Miami University is from Prospect,

and of course, my self, this year. Hopefully we will have two lawyers coming

from that immediate area.

L: Right.

A: And I don't know, I can't at this point designate other professionals that

will come from that area in particular, but I'm sure others could be

singled out.





17





L: Do you think this is why, you know when the desegregation, so-called

desegregation plan, was put forth by the Robertson County board of

education in 1970 and accepted by HEW, which we condemned, which I

personally condemned as being as bogus as a nine dollar bill. Do you

think the resistance we found in the Prospect area to this bill, I mean

this so-called desegregation plan which was not fair or considerate of

the Indian community, most Indian people felt. Do you think this is why

Prospect, and say the Oxedine area, which we remember as the Cherokee

captial area, do you think this kind of spirit is why we resisted that

and actually instituted court action. There were students, whether

this was wise or unwise, who sat in their own classrooms throughout

the entire year. This was the center of resistance.

A: That's correct and I believe that at the time the decision was made

to make such policy changes there was never contemplated the resistance

would come from the Prospect area in particular. There was never anticipated

that the resistance would be long and continuous. There was never anti-

pated that recent court decisions would eventually leave the Indian

people in general in the county of Robertson open to form a coalition

with the blacks and eventually as I foresee control the political machinery

within the county, but what I'm saying is that moves that were brought on

or the moves that were made by the white people at that time control actually

instigated or initiated a direct consolidation of effort on the part of

the Indians throughout the county and the basic core of leadership came

from the Prospect community and from the Pembroke community and you had a

consolidated effort on their part at that time and with that developing a

formative movement it now has progressed into what we have today which is

a coalition in essence which I foresee will eventually control the









18



total county government for Robertson county. But as you look at the leadership

and the county government, you have a representative from, as I mentioned

earlier, a representative from the Pembroke township and his status in

the legislature much influenced him from the Prospect area to help place

him there. At the same...this is on the state government level, and at

the same time on the county level we have a county commissioner, Mr.

Herman Dial, and also we have Mr. Harvard Moore, as I mentioned earlier,

on the board of education. But this is only another crust of the leader-

ship that has come from the Prospect area. But the dominant movement

in itself comes from the base or the majority of the people that have

persistently fought for Indian rights which in essence a substantial part

of the momentum for Indian rights has come from the Prospect area.

L: Right, now there's another interesting thing true about Prospect and

that is,...one is this, that the Lowry Trail, the old Lowry Road, which

was later adopted by the state, or the state road and the state.....



SIDE TWO OF THE TAPE WITH MR. LOCKLEAR

L: Mr. Locklear, as we were interrupted then with the tape, I was pointing

out another interesting characteristic about our mutual community where

you and I were brought up and that was in connection with the Lowry Road.

L-o-w-r-y...which was an old Indian trail built very many, many, many years

ago by ....

A: By Mr. James Lowry?

L: Yes, yes, that's right. By Mr. James Lowry. Thank you and this road was

an old Indian trail as I said. And it ran all the way to Roanoke Island,

North Carolina, which is the location of the place where the English

colonists of.1587 were landed. As a matter of fact, the three colonies






19



of Sir Walter Raleigh landed at Roanoke Island...and in 1584 the exploratory

colony, in 1585 the colony which became discouraged and returned to England,

with Sir Francis Drake, and in 1587 the so-called Lost Colony under Governor

John White, which never returned and which actually and in fact the first

colony, the first English colony to remain permanently in America.

OK. The old Lowry Road led and parts of it still exist and you know

parts of it as I said were taken as a state road. But those parts are

still there, the old road is still there, but this road led to Roanoke

Island and it led from Prospect to Roanoke Island. Now I think this

is very significant. Mr. Locklear, I hate to get away from the Lost

Colony theory because we could expound on that for hours and hours, but

at this point in my interview, I like to ask all my interviewees now this

question. If it were possible for you to rub an Aladdin's lamp and

instantly the genie appeared and said okay, change anything you want to

change about Robertson County. What would you change?

A: I guess I might wish to change the contempt or ridicule and scorn that

now is perpetuated on those that express a belief that's not compatible

with what others in the county would believe to be the true expression of

all the Indian people. Generally, I would want, or wish to see the understanding

just the relaxed atmosphere of understanding as opposed to a quick conclusion

that one is wrong for a 1 in the belief. I would like to see

in general some realistic thinking and though people have different ideas

or beliefs, Irould wish to see that there would be some kind of compromise

right now and possibly a solution, if only a temporary solution until a

permanent solution to many of our immediate problems or for many of our immediate

problems. So that eventually we can, if we have to take small steps now,

we can one day take giant steps forward. But to put it in a nutshell,

I would like to see more understanding in our own county among our own







20



Indian people and respect for different Indian beliefs in our own community,

you might say.

L: Well, that certainly is a great wish and it's my prayer that someday this

wish may be fulfilled and I believe in time, it will be. You've been

very kind to give us this interview and I've thoroughly enjoyed it. I

almost forgot it was an interview at several points along the way and

we thoroughly enjoyed ourselves, didn't we?

A: We certainly did.

L: This is the way it usually happens when one Prospecter meets another.

Right?

A: Yea, with a cup of coffee we can do marvelous things.

L: Right, and on behalf of the University of Florida's history department

and the Doris Duke Foundation's Averican Indian Oral History Program,

I want to say thank you so much for you have provided us with a wonderful

interview which has contributed much to our general store of knowledge

about the most interesting people in this whole world, the Lumbee Indians

of North Carolina.

A: Thank you.

PAGE 1

LUM 84A Arnold Locklear Interviewed by Lew Barton May 21, 1973 L: This is May 21, 1973. I am Lew Barton Interviewing for the Doris Duke Foundation American Indian Oral History Program under the auspices of the University of Florida's History Department, Dr. Samuel L. Proctor, Director. Today we are privileged to be in the office of the United States Indian Claims Connnission here in Washington, D. C. where we are interviewing the first three of five Lumbee Indian law students who have graduated this week. Already we have interviewed two of the three law students with us today and new we are entering into our third interview. Would you mind telling us, sir, what your name is? I know, but we want to ask you for the sake of our listeners. A: Arnold Locklear. Arnold Locklear. That's A-r-n-o-1-d. L: And what is your address? A: Route 3, Maxton. L: Uh-huh. You live then in what I call the prospect area, or is it a bit farther out? A: It would be a bit farther out and to the outer limits of the Pembroke township and what is known as the Brook settlement, which is a short distance southwest of Harper's Ferry Baptist CHurch. Ah more precisely at the junction of 17 and ah Highway 17 and U.S. Highway 74. L: Thank you very much. That's a very good answer and it reflects your training, I'm sure, to be very observant. How do you feel now that you're graduated, that you have graduated from law school?

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2 A: Well, after three years it feels. really fantastic to know that the books will not have to be sought from day to day and the library will not have to be a common environment and I'm only now looking forward to the bar. Hopefully, that will be successful which will be in will come in July and assuming that's successful, I can really say.that my orientation into law, which has been a total three years in law school will at that time in affect be behind me. But not until that time can I truefully say that the whole law school experience is finished. L: Well, I certainly want to congratulate you and wish you God's speed in your profession, as I've said already. This is the field in which our people, the Lum.bee Indians of North Carolina, are desperately in need of talent, a professional talent. And it's been inadequate in the years gone by and sometimes not trustworthy always. We are so happy that for seeing five of our students graduated on time. This is fantastic really. A: It certainly is and as you say in our area with the Lumbee Indians, in particular, in fact right now, as never before, though in the past we have needed Indian lawyers in particular, now it's more prominent or more marked than ever that we do need Indians and that decision making positions are open. Legal problems that now directly affect Indians as a group are being presented that need to be resolved and it's a time in which we actually need, as I said moreso than ever, though in the pst we have needed Indians to make such decisions, now we do need Indians to help to solve our problems that directly affect Indians today. L: That's so true and this is one of the things that makes us all so happy that you can always expect to get sympathetic understanding from one of our own people. Maybe this sounds a little bit prejudice and maybe --,

PAGE 3

3 it is. But if it is, I guess I'll have to stand by it. I know for many yearsI've personally dreamed of the day when we would have adequate law talent. My father always wanted me to be a lawyer, but I just didn't have talent in that direction I suppose. Our people have long dreamed of the time when they would have, and certainly this is going to add to it. Let's get into your biography a bit, if you don't mind. Who are your father ah.' who are your father and mother? A: My father was the late Chamis Locklear, now deceased since 1956. And my mother is Mrs. Gretch Hatcher, and we, as I indicated earlier, live in the Brooks settlement, and have and that has been our home since birth. And I hopefully, when I finish my law school experience, that is after the July bar exam, I will be returning to that area, to perhaps raise my own family. L: Well, raise •.. you know Prospect is my old camping ground too. This is where I was born and brought up and so we're blood brothers, I'm afraid. Whether we likes it or not. A: With only the Lumber River to separate us. L: Right. And some good stuff comes out of the Prospect area~ A: THat's true. It's correct. L: I interviewed the young man several days ago, probably a cousin of yours. But for some reason it seems to me that the Prospect community, which is a number of Indian communities, has always been progressive, hard working, competitive, alert, civic-minded, all these things that characterize our community. It was from this that the idea for the Lumbee Recreation Center was born, wasn't it? A: Tliat 's right.

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4 L: Tell me a bit more, are you married? A: No, I'm single yet. L: RBI.Hy? A: And hopefully within a year or so after ah as I indicated earlier the bar exam, I hope I can find a fair maiden to be my lawful wife. L: Well, good. Just interviewing Mr. Chavis, he's in just about the same predicament. You don't mind this being called a predicament, do you? A: I think it's a fortunate status. L: I guess we may sorta disagree there. Well, no I'm kidding, of course. But of course these interviews are a little light and serious at the same time, because we got together and so to celebrate this singular event in the history of our people and it's great to get together with you guys md it gives me a great deal of personal satisfaction to be with allcf you and especially ah by George one of the group is from, not only the Lumbee Indian community at large, but my own specific dear old Prospect. I love Prospect. A: Yes, it's , as you mentioned earlier, it's an area that the people seem more or less self-determinative in the sense that they desire to reach a goal and in the sense that they seem to be more independent than other areas of the county or the Indian community. And I guess this comes from our past history in that area in the sense that we are almost one hundred percent Indian, in the sense that we never in the past have had to in any sense of the word to fight in white community, or the black community, because we could never look to these areas to receive any aid or assistance, Now, therefore, I can only speculate that we became independent by depending on ourselves and I don't know

PAGE 5

5 that this is a correct observation, as I said I can only speculate and it's very prevalent that people in the Prospect area are first agressive people and they are independent people.-And this is, as I said, that independence it"self stems from self determination. \.._.,.,' L: Right, and now we are going to have a lawyer from the Prospect area. Could you Could you remember some of ~he leaders and other outstanding people that come from this area? Could you name a few together maybe? A: Well, perhaps, Mr. Moore. L: Ah •. this is Mr. Reverend Moore. A: Uh-huh that I helped .•. L: w. R., ah w. L. Moore? A: That I helped to L: That he was the first Lumbee Indian teacher he is the man A: We have a building on Pembroke State University campus, I believe •.. L: Named for him. A: Right. L: Moore Hall. A: Right. THis is .•. Also coming from the Prospect community is Professor Adolph Dial, now with Pembroke State University and has been for his almost all of his professional career and been a significant leader in Indian the/community. And ah •.. L: How about Mr. Harvard Moore? A: Harvard Moore is now with the Robertson County Board of Education and will be a significant input in policy decision on the county level for the Lumbee Indians in particular. L: Yea, and you know, remember, I believe, if I'm not mistaken and correct me if I am, that it seems to me that this is where the Lumbee Recreation

PAGE 6

6 Center was born. Tbis is where the idea took root and was born. This was a great recreational facility which was erected several years ago at the cost of a million dollars or so. A: Approximately, and singly Mr. Lester Bullard from the Prospect com munity was a significant figure in that and helped to bring about significant leadership and direction to the purpose of, ah to the project as a whole. At the same time coming from the Prospect community we have a county commissioner, Mr. Herman Dial, who now, as I said would be the ah ah the commissioners, Robertson County Commissioners and all this represents considerable leadership. L: Oh, yes. It does, indeed. Can you think of anymore? A: The only thing I can say or mention further, off the top of my mind, is you, Mr. Barton. You've contributed significantly in expressing the voice of the Indian. I make that "Indian," of Robertson County in expressing the views and opinions of the really nitty-gritty, if I can use that term indiscriminately, opinion of the Indians as a group in newspaper editorials and different periodicals and means of communication that have outside the Indian community expressed our inner feelings, I might say. L: Well, I'm certainly am appreciative of those kind words. I don't feel that I've done all that much, but however much or however little we've been able to accomplish, it was with the help of our Indian people and, of course, naturally we are glad to do whatever we can. These people, in and around Prospect, as opposed to people in other parts of the Indian community, and when we say Indian community at large, we mean a large Indian community, don't we? A: We mean approximately 40,000 people scattered across the radius, I guess you might say of approximately of about 30 to 35 to 40 miles radius.

PAGE 7

7 L: Right, and Prospect is about the center of that settlement, you might say the Indian settlement. A: It could be referred to sometimes as a nucleus, or not necessary it's not necessarily a nucleus, a hard core, 100 percent Indian community. This is to the exclusion of blacks as well as whites. L: Right. You can travel in any direction you like and you can go for miles and miles and miles and you never see anybody but Indian families. A: That's correct. L: People are surprised to newspaper reporters and the like when they ride through and find that this is so. They were actually in Indian territory. And here is where it all is. A: And it's L: This is the center. A: And another unique feature of this area is the dialect that sometimes astonishes people. That an Indian community within an Indian community is markedly different in dialect. L: Yes, and I think you and I reflect that somewhat don't you? A: And with ourmnversation here tonight, it's basically compatible. Even in psychology almost. I anticipate basically what in the Indian sense of the word we're ... as the conversation involved we might say almost. And, of course, with the speech aspect itself as pronounced as it is, it's really different and it's almost an Indian community, as I said earlier, within an Indian community. And we here tonight with our friends are separate from them, or not necessarily separate, but dialettically, if I can use that term, not separate in the sense that we are alike as opposed,,,or different from our other Indian friends that are Lumbees.

PAGE 8

8 L: Uh-huh. Isn't that ..• I think that's very interesting. At least it is to us, isn't it? A: It certainly is. L: Have you worked hard on trying to get rid of your Prospect accent? You can ask me the same question too if you want. A; Well, definitely not cause I'm proud of my heritage and the past, well within the past several years I've become to appreciate moreso than ever my heritage. And at this point I'm actually trying to preserve as opposed to destroy or do away with that which has made me. So I feel that I have been so fortunate to have been made by my background, it would be an injustice at this point to do away with that foundation that my whole life is based on. L: Right. I know what you mean, you know, being an English student, I tried to polish up a bit, but I've never lost that, you know, Prospect accent. And like you, I'm proud of it. I can hear anybody who speaks from our own area and I know immediately if he's from Prospect or if he isn't. This is something I can detect within the Indian community itself. A friend of mine who is a girl and who belongs to another ethnic group mentioned to me recently several what she calls Lurnbeeisms. I want to quote this "Lumbeeism" to you and see if you remember hearing it used. It's the word bes. For example, a girl sitting at Pembroke State University said recently, "If this test bes as the test we had yesterday, I don't know how I'm gonna past it." Now if it bes. A: I've heard that term along with many other terms that are prevalent in our area that I've never heard generally spoken in other areas, and sometimes I, in looking at those and looking at some of the

PAGE 9

9 historical or history books that L 1 ve read trace these things all the way back to the early settlers that came over from John White's Lost Colony from the Elizabethan English and it seems that the area in Prospect in particular has been isolated to the extent that this area has maintained more or less that culture, not necessarily culture but speech pattern that came over from the old country, the old English in other words. L: Right. A: And, I can see these things today more pronounced in the Prospect area than any other area in the Indian communities or in the Prospect com munity, that is. L: Right, and this word be, i.e. : "When I get home I be so tired, I can hardly hold one move one foot before another, I'lll so tired. I be so tired." Now, this is just one of many expressions like this. Isn't it? Have you heard the word, for example, for porck1 Have you ever heard porch called by some other name besides porch? A: That's the only term in Robertson County that I've ever heard it refered to as is. /\1\ L: Well, I've heard it call piazza in some places. ~ension for measurement and things like this. We are gradually losing these things, aren't we? A: That's true. I guess it might be the acculturation from of course .•. well, naturally the acculturation from surrounding non-Indian origins. And I believe that now would be the desire to preserve our heritage. It's more important than ever that we maintain these things in the proper per spective. L: Uh-huh. And not be ashamed of them. But you know, we've been taught by formal education that, of course, we were to get away from these things and improve our speech and so on. Of course, this is good, but

PAGE 10

J.O we still want to remember our Lumbeeisms, don't we? A: That's correct. L: Our Elizabethans, if you want to call it that. You know, for example, I don't know ! doubt if this is a Lumbeeism, it's ..• well, it's probably and Indianism as opposed to an Elizabethanism and that is the word you use for measurement, that's mension. We say mension sometimes instead of measurement. And if you're looking for something which means placed up on the wall, for example, a picture, you say it's either barsome \)..)\"IO ~Q\(\, or it's kinda whopseme. Have you ever heard those before? A: !--those are coillillon terms from my community. L: Do you know what they mean? A: Well, generally, the placement of the picture itself or the angle of the picture itself. L: Right, and if it's barsome,, it means that it's flushed with the wall and it's generally considered to be straight, but if it's kinda whoppin, it's crooked, isn't it? A: That's the general concept. L: (Laugh) But these things are very interesting. Near the Prospect area is a swamp, a great swamp which for many years was almost inpenetrable. You could walk for, ah--oh gosh--hundreds of yards actually without even touching ground because the growth, the undergrowth, was so thick. And this was sorta a fearsome sort of swamp. And we would call it Beckusus Bay. I've never known quite how to spell it, but I try to spell it the way it sounds--B.-e-c-k-u-s-u-s. Maybe you could give me a better spelling for that. Is this the way you've always heard it?

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11 A: That's--! believe I read in your book that term. Or if not in your book, in some of your writings. L: But you do know the bay I'm talking about, don't you? A: Generally. L: Yes, I know. That by--Mr. Will Locklear has cleared an enormous portion of that bay, which in my early lifetime was inpenetrable, and he has the richest, I daresay it is the richest, farm soil in this county, you know. Our people are hardworking people, they don't mind tackling any thing. They work so very hard, for example, being brought up on the farm in my early childhood. Sometimes I plowed all day for fiftyfents and I was darn lucky if I got that, but I was never any good at picking cotton. I have never been able to pick 200 pounds of cotton in my life, but I know people in the Prospect area who could do better than 500 pounds a day. Have you ever heard of one person picking 500 pounds of cotton? A: Not in particular. I know my mother, she's been and has picked as much as 400 in one day. L: Uh-huh. A: But it has been said and I've heard through rumor, or by rumor of people that had picked as much as 500. L: Do you know Mrs. Alice, Mrs. Alice Bullard, well she was a Bullard before she married A: Oh, yes L: and now is a Harris. Well, she---she has picked that much, I mean, I've heard that very often, you know, from her own family that she picked better than 500 pounds of cotton. And if a woman can do this well, all

PAGE 12

12 these things are unusual, aren't they, I mean A: And it seems as if we are from an unusual area in itself. L: Right, and we've been isolated largely, a community that has been isolated to the extent that we have preserved a lot perhaps of our loyalty to each other. How about the tendency of the neighbors of the community. A: This has been L: Pitching together and helping each other, even now. A: This seems to be more or less a general trait in the area, even today, other as opposed to the/areas or Indian areas in the county. Our area in itself has been isolated as we indicated earlier and even the school, Prospect School and the other schools, elementary school and the high school, it seems to be more or less a family kind of school, a family of the community as a whole as opposed to a family by blood line in itself and as sometimes referred to as ~. but it trans it goes through one, the bloodline and the community as a whole itself is really together or in a fabric or framework you might say. A mutual, a mutuality, and you do not find so much division in the county. It's more or less in the group, the Prospect group, it's more or less a clandescent kind of group of people. This is the best way that I could possibly characterize the Prospect community, is to say that it's in essence a clan kind of a group of people. L: Right, the community is very closely knit, isn't it? A: That's correct.

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13 L: And they have a tendency to stick together in a clannish way. If somebody is sick in the community, somebody is going to visit them and sit up with them, if need be, bring them food, whatever. If somebody butchers hogs, then the Prospect people have just about always as they called it lived at home and boarded at the same place. In other words, they raised a great deal of what they used, in the garden and in the, you know, meats too, hogs and cows and chickens and eggs. A: So we have been an independent group of people. L: Right, and they take pride in this. Whenever theres something to be done of a community nature, there even today, you find that people sticking together, as they call it. I went by Prospect Methodist Church, which is one of the finest churches in the county, as far as the cost of the building and it's a fine building, brick building, and they were raising money for something and I don't remember just what it was, but people were coming along and they were writing checks and they were doing this so freely as though it was something they were doing for their own family and people would pull out a check book and write a hundred dollars and the guy who was taking the checks, a friend of mine, I won't mention his name, but he was always, you know he's been very good about things like this, about raising money. Now are you going to give me a hundred dollars and walk away from here, you know, and probably he'd end up getting $150 or more, you know, for the church. You know, now look, this is for the church. And that's about all he'd have to say, and you know, they shelled out more money. Whatever it takes you know. A: I believe this stems from a deep rooted sense of responsibility that's in areas developed that's not questionable as•to the purpose to be attained by any funds that are contributed. It's a sense of trust and responsibility

PAGE 14

14 that the group as a whole reposes in each other and the people that accept this position assume the responsibility and it's almost unquestionable that his performance will be commensurate with the responsibility. L: Right. A: And it's a deep rooted sense of trust that has stemmed from this area. And you generally don't find it in other areas and even in areas outside the Prospect area in the Indian communities, you generally don't find it. It's sorta unique that you do find it in this particular area. Perhaps I am subjectively biased in making these statements. L: Uh-huh. Well, so am I perhaps, but these are the facts as I see them. A: Right. L: If somebody is sick, somebody's always going to come around and bring some food or whatever. If somebody butchers a hog, or hogs, as they do quite often, it isn't anything to share that meat with the neighbors, you know. Even now, and perhaps this is the way it was done in the overall Indian community yesterday, but much of the Indian community have gotten away from this togetherness, but there's a sweet part of it that still remains in the Prospect area even today and this just does my heart good. How about you, does it make you feel good? A: It really makes me feel good in the sense that I believe that in other areas of our country and state and even county, the Prospect community has found a way in contemporary times to adjust to changing needs and at the same time maintain the community responsibility for taking care of the community. Whereas in other areas of the county, or the state and the nation at large, that means of perpetuating the connnunity interest itself as we have done in the Prospect area has not been maintained.

PAGE 15

-----------------------------------------------------------L: 15 L: That's right. A: And I don't know if it's an inate ability or if it's been by sheer luck or whatever, but seemingly we have been able in that area to exist in modern day society, and at the same time continue that I close nitty responsibility of taking care of our fellow man and our immediate community. It's been a basic aspect of the Prospect community in my lifetime and in times before me. And I'm just glad to see that, that ah it's a product or an element that exists now that has been and hopefully it will ever continue to be. Though I find this sense of looking after your neighbor in other communities has disappeared. Right. A: And I don't know if it's genius on our part from our community, or sheer luck, or whatever. But thank God we still have it there. L: We've got the old human touch there, haven't we? A: That's correct. L: And we wouldn't think about anybody going hungry. In our community we've heard about that if somebody's heard about that, they'd get up at the midnight hour and walk over there and carry them some food. A: If this is an evil aspect of being clandescent, I wish to continue that evil aspect if that's how you catagorize it. L: Right. Right. I think this is a very human thing and people are so warm and human that even, you know, when they they have the most fantastic gardens in that area too still that I know anything about. When you go to a family's home and you're there during the lunch hour, they never cook just enough for their own family or for that meal, they always cook enough food so that anybody else that chances along will have food too and they I

PAGE 16

16 can eat. It's sorta a disgrace for a woman to cook just enough for her bare needs. Do you bear me out on this? A: I will bear you out on that and add to that, sorta expand on it, by saying that the whole, the whole Prospect area is almost a self-sustaining community in itself. Now if you go to the educational sense, educational realm, Prospect school in particular is basically made up of the people from Prospect community. As opposed to other areas within the Indian realm, like Furgrouph, for example, the teachers that basically make up Furgrouph come from Pembroke or the Prospect area to commute all the way twenty to twenty-five miles away to the Furgrouph area. The same thing is applied to Magnolia, wherethe teachers basically, the majority of the teachers, commute from Pembroke or the Prospect area all the way up to the Magnolia area to teach school on a day to day basis. But the Prospect area in itself, the Prospect area in general is like I said a self-sustaining community. This, it seems as if from this area, the development was early in time and at the same time, as I mentioned earlier, the area has kept or maintained extensive stabality in its resistance to change and even down to the basics, you might say, to looking after their fellow man. Really I can look at the Prospect area and appreciate it from many points or view, and the fine leadership that has come from the area. We have two lawyers hopefully from that area, Chavis that graduated this year from, ah, not Chavis, but ah the Locklear, Bullard, next year, that will graduate from Miami University is from Prospect, and of course, my self, this year. Hopefully we will have two lawyers coming from that immediate area. L: Right. A: And I don't know, I can't at this point designate other professionals that will come from that area in particular, but I'm sure others could be singled out.

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17 L: Do you think this is why, you know when the desegregation, so-called desegregation plan, was put forth by the Robertson County board of education in 1970 and accepted by HEW, which we condemned, which I personally condemned as being as bogus as a nine dollar bill. Do you think the resistance we found in the Prospect area to this bill, I mean this so-called desegregation plan which was not fair or considerate of the Indian community, most Indian people felt. Do you think this is why Prospect, and say the Oxedine area, which we remember as the Cherokee captial area, do you think this kind of spirit is why we resisted that and actually instituted court action. .There were students, whether this was wise or unwise, who sat in their own classrooms throughout the entire year. This was the center of resistance. A: That's correct and I believe that at the time the decision was made to make such policy changes there was never contemplated the resistance would come from the Prospect area in particular. There was never anticipated that the resistance would be long and continuous. There was never anti pated that recent court decisions would eventually leave the Indian people in general in the county of Robertson open to form a coalition with the blacks and eventually as I foresee control the political machinery within the county, but what I'm saying is that moves that were brought on or the moves that were made by the white people at that time control actually instigated or initiated a direct consolidation of effort on the part of the Indians throughout the county and the basic core of leadership came from the Prospect community and from the Pembroke community and you had a co{)iolidated effort on their part at that time and with that developing a formative movement it now has progressed into what we have today which is a coalition in essence which I foresee will eventually control the

PAGE 18

18 total county government for Robertson county. But as you look at the leadership and the county government, you have a representative from, as I mentioned earlier, a representative from the Pembroke township and his status in the legislature much influenced him from the Prospect area to help place him there. At the same this is on the state government level, and at the same time on the county level we have a county connnissioner, Mr. Herman Dial, and also we have Mr. Harvard Moore, as I mentioned earlier, on the board of education. But this is only another crust of the leadership that has come from the Prospect area. But the dominant movement in itself comes from the base or the majority of the people that have persistently fought for Indian rights which in essence a substantial part of the momentum for Indian rights has come from the Prospect area. L: Right, now there's another interesting thing true about Prospect and that is, one is this, that the Lowry Trail, the old Lowry Road, which was later adopted by the state, or the state road and the state SIDE TWO OF THE TAPE WITH MR. LOCKLEAR L: Mr. Locklear, as we were interrupted then with the tape, I was pointing out another interesting characteristic about our mutual connnunity where you and I were brought up and that was in connection with the Lowry Road. L-o-w-r-y which was an old Indian trail built very many, many, many years ago by A: By Mr. James Lowry? L: Yes, yes, that's right. By Mr. James Lowry. Thank you and this road was an old Indian trail as I said. And it ran all the way to Roanoke Island, North Carolina, which is the location of the place where the English colonists of.1587 were landed. As a matter of fact, the three colonies

PAGE 19

19 of Sir Walter Raleigh landed at Roanoke Island .and in 1584 the exploratory colony, in 1585 the colony which became discouraged and returned to England, with Sir Francis Drake, and in 1587 the so-called Lost Colony under Governor John White, which never returned and which actually and in fact the first colony, the first English colony to remain permanently in America. OK. The old Lowry Road led and parts of it still exist and you know parts of it as I said were taken as a state road. But those parts are still there, the old road is still there, but this road led to Roanoke Island and it led from Prospect to Roanoke Island. Now I think this is very significant. Mr. Locklear, I hate to get away from the Lost Colony theory because we could expound on that for hours and hours, but at this point in my interview, I like to ask all my interviewees now this question. If it were possible for you to rub an Aladdin's lamp and instantly the genie appeared and said okay, change anything you want to change about Robertson County. What would you change? A: I guess I might wish to change the contempt or ridicule and scorn that now is perpetuated on those that express a belief that's not compatible with what others in the county would believe to be the true expression of all the Indian people. Generally, I would want,~or wish to see the understanding just the relaxed atmosphere of understanding as opposed to a quick conclusion that one is wrong for a in the belief. I would like to see in general some realistic thinking and though people have different ideas or beliefs, I~ould wish to see that there would be some kind of compromise right now and possibly a solution, if only a temporary solution until a permanent solution to many of our innnediate problems or for many of our innnediate problems. So that eventually we can, if we have to take small steps now, we can 0ne day take giant steps forward. But to put it in a nutshell, I would like to see more understanding in our own county among our own

PAGE 20

20 Indian people and respect for different Indian beliefs in our own community, you might say. L: Well, that certainly is a great wish and it's my prayer that someday this wish may be fulfilled and I believe in time, it will be. You've been very kind to give us this interview and I've thoroughly enjoyed it. I almost forgot it was an interview at several points along the way and we thoroughly enjoyed ourselves, didn't we? A: We certainly did. L: This is the way it usually happens when one Prospecter meets another. Right? A: Yea, with a cup of coffee we can do marvelous things. L: Right, and on behalf of the University of Florida's history department and the Doris Duke Foundation's Averican Indian Oral History Program, I want to say thank you so much for you have provided us with a wonderful interview which has contributed much to our general store of knowledge about the most interesting people in this whole world, the Lumbee Indians of North Carolina. A: Thank you.