Title: Interview with Jeffrey Maynor
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007069/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Jeffrey Maynor
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Spatial Coverage: Lumbee County (Fla.)
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00007069
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 82

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Full Text


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LUM 82AB //f w /
DATE: JUNE 8, 1973

I: ...with the Doris Duke Foundation Oral...American Indian Oral Histories

Program, under the auspices of the University of Florida. Today is June 8

figh2 th 1973. I'm in Pembroke, North Carolina at the Lumbee Regional

Development Association. I'm interviewing Mr, Jeffery Steven Maynor today.

This is Janie Maynor Locklear.

Uh, Mr. Maynor could you tell me how long have you been employed here

at LRDA?

S: Approximately twenty months.

I: About twenty months. Uh, what is your job title presently?

S: Business specialist.

I: Did you uh, originally come to the LRDA for that position, or have you

worked in other positions?

S: Uh, I started with LRDA uh, like I said, twenty months ago. At that time,

the agency had a position for two community...or outreach workers,

community aids. And they decided to combine the two aids, to give me a

job in economic development, because at that time they had uh, submitted

a proposal to OEO for economic development rank.

I: Right.

S: So what I worked on the first eight months that I was here uh, was in

economic development in various areas. Similar to what I'm doing now,



S: ...but the title then I think was economic development specialist.

I: Right, uh huh.

S: So when we got the grant, business development was what I was mostly

concerned with then, and that's what I'm doing now.

I: Um huh. Uh, andLthis uh, particular program was funded by who?


I: OEO. Uh, due to the nicks and cuts in OEO's funds, uh, do you see any

cuts in your particular program here? Do you forsee...?

S: To be truthful with you...I'll leave that to the administration of the

office here. And that's their worries. I try to do what I'm hired to do,

and I feel like that's what they're hired to do...look after the

funding of the agency, and I leave those worries with them, and that...I

try not to get involved there.

I: O.k. Uh, tell me a little bit about yourself uh, Mr. Maynor before we

go any farther, a little bit of background as far as your age, and uh...?

S: My age is thirty-four, I'mi4pobably...

I: And when is your birthday?
S: March tcha..fif-teerrth.

I: Nineteen...?

S: Thirty-nine.

I: 1939. Uh, who...what community, uh, in Robeson County were you raised?

Are you originally from Robeson County?

S: I'm originally from Robeson County, and raised in the Pembroke area, or

I went to Pembroke school.

I: Um huh. Uh, did you...you went to both grammar school and high school

here in Pembroke?



S: Yeah.

I: Uh, and what is your parents name?

S: Wayne Maynor, and Lucie Maynor. My mother died in '68.

I: '68. How many children were in your family Mr. Maynor?

S: Four, and an adopted daughter.

I: Uh huh. And uh, what are their names, and what are they doing at present?

S: My oldest sister was Faye, she lives in Los Angeles. She's a secretary

for the Teamster's Union.

I: Has she been in L.A. long, or just recently or what?

S: She moved to L.A. int152, and prior to that she was in Charlotte.

I: Um huh. So after her completing high school, she left the uh, local

area, is that right?

S: She left to go to Charlotte for...to a business college. At that time

if we...if a girl did want to do secretarial work, she had no place to

go unless she did leave.

I: Right. And then she left from there and went to L.A.?

S: Yes, her...she got married while she was in Charlotte, and her husband

was stationed in California. He was in the Marines.

I: So she's remained there ever since?

S: Yeah.

I: Uh, what about your other uh, brothers and sisters?

S: Next to her was my brother Walt. He...when he got out of high school,

he went to Ohio State. He thought at that time he would like to be a

veterinarian, but uh, then at eighteen years old, leaving home was a

hard decision for him to make to stay away from home. So he went




S: ...there a year, and come back home and got married. Or...come...got

married while he was there, and he moved back home, and farmed for five

years, and decided he wanted to go back to college. So he went back to


I: Did he attend school here at Pembroke State University, or where?

S: Yes he did. He attended alPembroke State for three years, and when he

finished there he went to Maryland...Oxford, Maryland right outside of

Washington, and taught for two years. He got a scholarship at North

Carolina University to work on his master's degree.

I: Is that North Carolina State?

S: No, the university at Chapel Hill.

I: O.k.

S: Uh, he went there a year, and uh when he got through school there he

went back to Maryland, and taught for a year, and then he moved back.

In the meantime his wife was going to college while he was in...while he

was in school. And she moved to Chapel Hill with him and went to school

there, and when he went back, she finished that year during the summer,

and they moved to Washington. And he took some courses at George Washington,

and the University of Maryland while he was in Washington. So he moved

back and taught in the local schools for two years, and uh, he finally

got his Master's degree at Appalachian State Teacher's College. At that

time it was a teacher's college. And he went to work then at Sand Hills

Community College, in Southern Pines, for three years. And he moved from

there to Pembroke State University, and he left Pembroke State University

after two years...or three years I think it was, and went to Duke to get




S: ...his doctor's degree. He got his doctor's degree at Duke, and he went

to Appalachian to work for a year. And he went...come back to uh, North

Carolina Central...is where he's uh...presently now. And he's in charge

of Marginal Student's Program at Central.

I: Uh....

S: And I have a sister next to he, Millicent. She's in Tennessee. Her

husband is uh...a coin collector. He's in that line of work, and she's

there. At the same age of her, I have a...my family adopted uh, a girl,

that feels as close as any sister I have. Her husband is employed.at

Pembroke State University in the Biology Department, and she doesn't

teach. Then myself, uh...

I: And what's her name?

S: Anne.

I: Anne?

S: Yeah.

I: And then you were the baby of the family?

S: Yes, I was the youngest of the family.

I: The baby. Did all of your brothers and sisters finish high-school?

S: Yes.

I: And uh, Walt was the only one in the family that received a higher


S: Yes, all of us went to college, but he is the only one that finished.

I: Finished...right. Uh, as you were a child growing up Mr. Maynor, uh...uh,

before we go into that uh, tell us your wife's name so that we'll have

that on tape.




S: Well, I've been married twice. My first wife was a local girl, that we

went to school together. And uh, while I was farming, when I got out of

school I went to Baltimore for two years and worked in the Cheverolet

Plant on the assembly line, and I didn't particularly like that too

well, and too, my wife was going to college. I moved back and farmed

for four years. And during that time she got her degree, and she uh,

was employed at the college after she got out. She taught a year, and

went back to the college, and now she is Financial Aid Officer there.

But uh, we were married for eight years, and we got a divorce.

I: And you had two sons?

S: Two sons.

I: And what are their names?

S: Jeffery and Wayne.

I: How old are they now?

S: Wayne is six, and Jeffery is eleven.

I: Um huh. Now you're married to whom?

S: Susan Conally, she's from New York...Troy, New York.

I: And uh, she originally came in the area for what purposes?

S: She was a VISTA worker.

I: And did she work...was she employed here by LRDA?

S: She was employed at the agency...or, she worked out of the agency.

I: Out of the agency?

S: Yes.

I: And how long have uh, you and uh, Sue been married?




S: Nine months.

I: Nine months. O.k. uh, now let's uh, talk a little bit about uh...let's

talk a little bit about the value of education that uh, you uh, was

found in your home as you were a child growing up. Was there importance

put on education? Uh, you said your parents farmed, uh, what else did your

father do?

S: My father was a teacher, and I think he taught about uh, thirty-five,

somewhere along there...thirty-five years in the county school system.

And strangely, he didn't force education on us. I didn't want to be a

teacher, never did. And uh, at that time, when I was in school, if I

finished school, all we could do was teach...be a teacher. And I didn't

particularly want to be a teacher, so I went to college a year, and I...I

quit, because I could see myself getting in that line, and I didn't want

to do that.

I; Was it important in your house that you finish high school?

S; It was expected of me I think. It was never discussed.

I: Uh huh. But you knew that this is what your parents desired?

S: Yes...yes.

I: That you complete high school. Uh, as a child uh, what kind of importance

was placed on you uh, as far as when the report cards came home?

Uh, was it important to you to do your best, or was it something that

your parents payed no attention to? What kind of value was placed there?

S: That's another strange thing, because they didn't really concerned...excuse

me...concern theirselves with grades that I made. That I uh...that I went

at my own pace, and I did or got in school what I wanted to do.




S: I imagine because my father was a uh, teacher, he didn't feel like uh,

uh, that he should be pressing, because being a -i.ei-as he knew a

little...I imagine how it went. And through the association with he and

my brother, and what have you when I was in school, I felt like that I

got a ...a fairly good understanding of the school system...just being

around them.

I: Right. Uh...is he retired now, or is he still teaching, or...?

S: Yes, he retired in 1/8 when my mother died.

I: Um huh. So what does he do now as a passtime?

S: He has a farm, and uh...that we always lived on. And he takes care of the

farm. He has cows, and hogs, and that kind of stuff. He probably works

harder now than he ever worked.

I: Is...do you think he's enjoying his retirement?

S: I think so. I think he's enjoying it more than what we thought he would.

Because when my mother died, they were close, and my mother was the one

that always did the...the farming. She looked after the farming end of it,

and my father taught school. And it's a big change for him to uh...to do

farm work now because he very seldom did it because he always had us to

do it.

I: Uh huh...uh huh Uh, what we're trying to capture...capture here is sort

of a lifestyle of the people. Uh, let's talk a little bit about your

generation, and uh, the norms for young people at that time as far as

dating habits go.

S: Well uh, this is probably strange in a lot of respects, because until I

was twelve to fourteen years old, some time during that...that period.




S: That I very seldom saw a white person, or a black person. The only time

I would see them is when I'd come to town.

I: Right.

S: And I...I thought until I got twelve or thirteen that the only people

that farmed in the county was Indians.

I: Yes, uh huh.

S: And I don't know how I was led to believe that...that if a white person

farmed, it was a poor poor white person.

I: Right.

S: And why I was put in that position, I don't know. But being that way,

I never had any hangups with white or black because I never talked to

them. And I never was around them, so therefore I don't know whether I

was uh...they...I felt as though that they was a peer to me or not, I

felt as though that-I could...if I had a chance to compete, I could uh,

I could do all right. But from that uh, it kindly...I couldn't say

cramped, because it kindly set the stage on what you could do...or whom

you could date, because there would be very few places you could go. I'm

not saying that you couldn't go...but we never had an opportunity to go

there, and we never had the desire to go there. Because, you no the

beach is only a hundred miles away, which is two hours, and we never

went to the beach with the girlfriend or what have you because that,

we felt like it was...I don't know whether we felt like it was too much

money or what. Because it didn't cost a lot to go, but we just never did

that kind of thing. And uh, the dating would be very uh, remote, what

you would do with...there was very few things you could do. You could go




S: ...to the movie, and that was about it.

I: Where did you sit when you went to the movie?

S: Well, we didn't go to too many walk in movies, we would go to drive-in

movies because uh, at the walk-in movies we would have to go upstairs.

And it's a strange thing now that I kid a lot of whites about uh, how we

would throw things down on them, and that kind of stuff.

I: Yeah. There were three sections in the movie theatre at that time were

there not?

S: Yes.

I: Uh, one for each race. Uh, the whites sat down stairs, and there was a

section upstairs for Indians, and a section for blacks?

S: Yes, uh, at one of the movies down in Lumberton...what I'm saying is in

Lumberton...and a strange thing, Lumberton was the only place...or we'd

go to Lorxanburug which here, is the same distance from us...everybody was

together in Lumberton. Well, the Indians and whites were together the

blacks were still upstairs. But in one movie in Lumberton, they had a

section for white too upstairs. See, the whites would go upstairs. They

had it sectioned off upstairs.

I: I remember. But at t grrenbtig what procedure was followed?

S: Well, there the Indians and whites would go together. They would go

downstairs in the movie together, and the hospital was the same thing.

So therefore most of the Indians went to Lo-renbur-g to the hospital.

Lo-rrenbt-r-g and Hampton.

I: But Lumberton was uh, completely segregated at their hospital?

S: Yes.




I: Uh, when you uh, were a young boy, and uh, did you get your driver's

license at sixteen?

S: Yeah, I got them on my...I was sixteen on Wednesday, and the driving-

examination was on a Friday, and I got them on Friday.

I: Uh huh...right. Uh, what kind of policies did you have in your home

about using the family car?

S: That was very strict, uh, on my part, because being younger, the

youngest in my family, I was always judged by what the older did.

I: Right.

S: And I didn't get the freedom of the use if the car as much as my

brother or sister did older than myself.

I: Right. Uh, was there just special times, or special nights...uh, how about

during the week...school week, uh did you have the car to come to Pembroke,

or uh, did you just get it on weekends more or less?

S: If I got it, it was on the weekends, and the weekends was very seldom.

I: Uh huh. Uh, well let's talk a little bit about your uh, work here at

LRDA. Uh, you said you were working with the business uh line of uh,

economic development. What have you done uh...thus far? How did you

begin to uh, start working in this kind of work? What were your initial

steps in being organized in your position here?

S: It's not uh, strange I don't imagine Janie, but mkst Indians feel like

they can do what their given an opportunity to do.

I: Right.

S: And my qualifications for doing this is very...was veryvery limited. All

I had prior to that was sale experience and farming. I was manager of a




S: ...recreation center...Lumbee Recreation Center for two years, and I left

that and started selling cars. But uh, when I was hired, the man that

hired me knew that I didn't have the expertise in bookkeeping and what

have you. But he felt like that I had a general understanding of the

people and how I could get involved with people. And that was the main

thing he was after. Because he told me at that time that he would give

me time to sit down to uh...to think. At that time I'd never had a job

to...that I could do any thinking on, that I had to work for my living.

And they didn't have time to think.

I: Right.

S: So when I started here, I went through an orientation period of

probably three months that I read everything that I could get my hands

on, and I talked to quite a few people that was in the business to form

my opinion of what I was going to do. And then I started work. And the

accomplishments have been the successful, or a lot of people label them

as a success, but there's a whole lot of things that I would have liked

to have done that I haven't done. We started in uh, business development

with uh, we felt as though that we had to increase the capital of the

Indian people. And we felt as though we could do it by the Indian

businesses. So we started trying to auire loans to make their businesses

bigger, to get other people in business, because unless we do have uh,

the money, we can't go very far. Uh, this is one thing that my family

and myself disagrees on. My brother is in the education profession, my

father was also, and they feel like that education is the answer. But

unless...I feel like unless you have the money you can't get the education.




I: Right.

S: So...they...they go hand in hand, and I don't know which is more

important. Some say you have to have the education to get the money,

but I know you have to have the money to get an education. So I...and

being in business I look at it from that side. And the educators going

to look at it from the other. So we uh...worked at getting people loans.
J 4'7s0) 000
We got seven-hurnd-ed-and-fi-fty-tthousand-dol-lars...part from the Small

Business Administration, part from local banks...to go in business in all

the businesses are doing quite well.

I: But this is over a period of how long Jeff?

S: A year.

I: Over a period of a year.

S: Because...I can't say that I wasted...to the average person on the street

that uh...that hadn't saw, or doesn't know that-much about what we are

doing...would say that I wasted four months...I didn't do anything. But

those four months I spent, I feel like was the most important four months

since I've been here. ..was getting myself ready to do a job. And we as

Indian people is very relaxed on planning...doesn't plan the way we

should. But during the...the money that we have gotten....

I: What do you contribute that to Jeff, uh, lack of knowing...knowing how

to plan?

S: Well, this is....

I: Or lack of knowing that a plan is necessary, or just what...?

S: Knowing that a plan is necessary is the problem, I think. And like I

said, when I started, that it was the first job that I've ever had that




S: ...I was paid to think, and not to work with my hands. Most of us,

and most Indians are paid to work with their hands, and not think.

I: Right.

S: So if you...if a man thinks for his living, he's going to plan for

his living. But if he works with his hands, he's not going to plan.

He'll leave the planning to someone else.

I: Uh huh.

S: So we've never been able to plan like we'd like, or should have.

I: Right.

S: Or...and so all'the_:necessary uh...steps for planning, someone always did

it for us. And basically we know humans are lazy to start with. They're

not going to do anymore than they have to.

I: So there's a lack of experience...experiences in planning...uh, somewhere

along the line we have to learn how to plan don't we?

S: Yes...yes, and this is what we're trying to work on with uh, attitudes

towards that...the importance of panning. You just can't tell a man that

you're going to plan because in all the books that is wrote about

business development, uh, economic development, community development,

never start with the small necessary steps of planning, and getting the

peoples attitude right for what they're going to do.

I: Right. So uh, you said you had uh, uh, what was the figure you used, uh


S: It's between...about seven-ttndr-enard-dfifty-do-llars that we have gotten

in loans.

I: How-about some of the type businesses that are...have been funded uh,




I: ...through these loans?

S: Well, we have....

I: Are they new businesses or funds from...which went into established


S: Well let me go down some of the line for you.

I: O.k.

S: And we can pick out some is, and some not. We got a loan for a rest-

aurant...was a sizeable loan. But the man was in the restaurant bus-

iness before, but he bought a restaurant on 95. / / --c j

I: Um huh.

S: So uh...that one is going good. Next we got a loan for a man to go in

the dental ceramic business... make casts for teeth. He was doing the

business in a small way, but he didn't have the capital he needed to

uh, get the work and what have you. So we got that, and he's doing

a// a0right in that one.

I: Is that locally?

S: Yes, that's in Lumberton. We got a man a loan to go in the used car

business. He'd been in the business fifteen years in California, and

like all Indians, they like to come home.

I: Right.

S: So he wanted to come back, and we got him a loan to go in business...in

the used car business, and he's doing quite well. So that's a new

business that's created.

I: Right.

S: Uh, we got a loan for a machine shop. It's really the only minority




S: machine shop in the state of North Carolina.

I: Uh huh.

S: And out of all the loans we got, he's probably done the best job. Because

the man uh, is only twenty-three years old...twenty-three or

twenty-four years old. He's young enough that...that we can work with.

I; Right.

S: So in working with him we have been able to get contracts at Western

Electric, Converse Railroad Company, R.J. Reynolds, Union Carbide, and

most of his work is done for large industries. And very few of it...a

little bit of it's done locally. Like an old blacksmith shop type-operation

he doesn't have. He's got a highly technical type operation.

I: Has the LRDA played a role in helping him acquire contracts?

S: Yes. Yes, this is...this is what I was saying earlier, that uh, he is

at the age that he can...he will accept our help. But some of the other

ones like uh...a garage that we built...it's very hard because the man's

been in the garage business twenty years. He knows a lot of people that

he does work with. And it's hard for me to change that man...to bring any

new ideas to him, because he's got his ideas set.

I: Uh huh.

S: Another one is uh....

I: The machinist, where did he learn his trade?

S: His father lived in Greensborugh for quite a few years, and he finished

high school in Greensboroqdeg. And he learned his...the trade in high

school. And this is something that has upset me here, and uh...the way

that things go that...but he's learned a trade that he's doing quite well




I: Right. He's really profiting.

S: And uh, it's not regular, he...they wasn't preparing the boy to go to


I: Right.

S: But here, in our educational system, they're preparing everybody to go

to college.

I: Right.

S: And which I don't feel like is right.

I: Right.

S: He has uh, four people, and he's trying to uh, get two experienced

machinists now which would give him six people. We have another one

that uh...that's a cut and sew operation, a garment manufacture that...

This gentleman worked down at a cut and sew operation, and he decided

he would like to go. in business for himself. So we got him a loan, and

he's in business for himself...employing sixty-five people...maybe seventy

now. And he's...he's doing all right in that line. And we have uh, another

restaurant, and uh, it's doing about the same. And a garage, a super

market type thing, and along that line, a plumbing supply business.

I: Uh, what have you done Mr. Maynor to let Indian people know that you are

here, and know the system, and apply for loans to uh...go into business?

S: Well, Janie this is...to the...to the person that's not in business, or

the person that's not familiar with our organization...I'd probably say

it's nothing. But the most important thing to me...that we formed a

Lumbee Indian business organization....that we have forty-five members.

And these members are from all over the county, in all different kinds




S: ...of businesses, from a servic7station to a carpenter, a painter, uh,

and everything. But we meet twice a month.

I: How long has this been organized?

S: Uh, this was organized in July of last year. Well, in July it will be a

year. But this is...I feel like it's the greatest achievement we made.

And even-h.ndred- rthotand-del-lars is fine, but if I leave tomorrow, who's

going to help the people get the seehde--hoad-l-?

I: Right.

S: But the business organization I feel like is setting the attitudes, and

the trends...people are going to take care of their needs theirselves.

And I feel like this should be my role at LRDA. Preparing somebody to do

the things for theirselves, and not...not expect me to do them.

I: Right...right.

S: Because I'd like to go into business some time.

I: Um huh...right. Tell me a little bit about your Lumbee business and what

type of uh...you say you have forty-five...uh, what criteria is the basis

for membership?

S: To be a...a Lumbee Indian, and own or operate a business.

I: Uh, has this uh idea been received uh, like you would like for it:to have

been received? Or have Indian business men participated to the extent that

you would like to see them participate?

S: Well, I don't think...being raised in America, and the way America is

set up to get as much as you can...it's not been as...as good as I'd like

it to be. But it surprised quite a few people that we have done it.

I: Right.




S: Quite a few people thought that you could never get the business people

together for anything.

I: Right.

S: Because they was always competing against each other. But uh, we are...are

working that out, and uh, our meetings are...we have good attendance at

our meetings. And we feel like that it's doing quite well. We have the

Christmas Parade in Pembroke, in uh, December was the first we've had.

The businessmen got together and bought some gifts that they give away.

I: Um huh.

S: We sponsored a float for Miss Lumbee down at uh, the Azalea Festival in

wilmington, which cost them tiee-ht-mdaed-4lrs...was a lot of money

for the business man that's not involved, or never did anything of that


I: Right.

S: And we feel like it's doing quite well. They make sure that uh...the

Lumbee, not the uh...The Carolina Indian Voice has enough of advertisements.

We made it clear to Bruce if he ver runs into a advertising problem, let

us know.

I: Uh huh. So they're not only uh, organized to help themselves, but they're

organized also for the purpose of uh, helping the community?

S: Yes, we feel like that uh...to be a success in business you have to give

something back to the community.

I: Right.

S: And not particularly look after yourself. It is a selfish motive that

they are doing, but they realize that they have to do these things in

order to get what they want.



I: Uh huh.

S: And July te- fuurm of each year we select the Lumbee Indian business-

man of the year. This is how the organization got formed, and it was

formed for that reason. So we're working on that now.

I: Who has been the recipitant of that re...award?

S: Uh, Mr. Ward Clarke was the first. He was...I think he has made the...

the most drive in business of any Indian we have. I think he's the first

Indian millionaire we have, and he did all this in the past uh...six or

seven years. Because six years, he had some bubble gum machines and

taught school. That was his business. And he started in the house

business, and uh built a grocery store, a furniture store, laundrymat,

and what have you, and he did quite well.

I: And he has uh...a shopping center does he not?

S: Yes, Lumbee shopping Center.

I: I think they're...he is uh, sponsoring an anniversary celebration this

weekend for his shopping center is he not?

S: Yes he is. That's part of the uh, things that we have put together

through the Lumbee Indian Businessan Organization...which, it gives uh,

the men a chance to get together and talk about things. We have had uh,

three dinners in different communities for uh, let's say uh, Ward Clarke

for Lumbee Shopping:Center, Russel Oxendine with Lumbee Campers. They've

gone together in a community and given a free barbque in the community to

get the people to know them, because we feel like we have to do some type

of advertising.




I: Uh huh. Uh, what uh...what type of programs do you have at your meetings?

What uh...have you conducted seminars...have you given these men public

training, or what are some of the type of things you've done to asist

other than just...other than acquiring loans?

S: Well now, this is uh, one thing that has worked out well with the

gentleman that owns the machine shop. Like I said earlier, he's not too

old to try to learn. So the seminars that we have conducted, which we

probably...we conduct...try to conduct one every three months, of some

nature. He always attends. If we have a seminar that's not here...it's

a state-wide seminar, he usually goes to these state-wide seminars to

meet uh, industrial people to look for work. So uh, we got together,

and five months ago I think it was, and come up with an idea of having

a state-wide minority trade fair. It was in Henderson, and I couldn't

operate it because we didn't have the money.

I: Right.

S: And another reason, I wasn't black. And to have a state-wide minority

trade fair, you have to involve the blacks fairly heavy. So we got a

man to do it in Raleigh. And he...the trade fair went quite well. And

this is some of the things, and uh...that we are doing for the business

men. But we have a speaker the first Thursday night in each month, a

guest speaker. We've had the head of the Commerce and Industry Department,

the uh...and different people to come in and speak on different phases of


I: Uh, what type of seminars have you sponsored locally?

S: Well we have sponsored seminars on uh, records and book keeping, sales




S: ...and promotion, crime prevention, and along that line.

I: uh, where do you get assistance for...for these seminars? Have you had

any working relationship with the local university?

S: Well strangely Janie, uh...or to my...to my pleasant surprise, everything

I've asked the Pembroke State University to do, they've always helped

me do it. And I know a lot of times they've turned people down, or they

said they have...I don't know. But I've never had any problem. Whatever

I want from the university...l usually get it. We had one not long ago,

that we used their cafeteria, we use their buildings, and the...the

cafeteria prepared the meal for us, and what have you. But uh, too, I

never go to the university and ask them for anything, that I don't feel

like they might gain something from it too.

I: Right.

S: Because I felt like, and I explained to them, that if we get the uh,

business people on the university campus, chances are they would be

more receptical to uh, donations and what have you to the college.

I: Right.

S: And which is true, and...and uh, they participate in the college a whole

lot more, and the college does that. And uh, I got a call last week from

the head of the business department of the college, and he's trying to

set up something similar to this for next uh...for the following year,

I: Uh huh.

S: And I'm running a small survey now to all these businesses...whether they

are a member of the business organization or not, to see what type of

seminars they would like to be in. And we're going to conduct that in




S: ...September. We're going to start it in September.

I: What are some of the categories that you're asking?

S: Here is a list here.

I:. Could you read it please?

S: Sales promotion and advertising, personnel management, planning to...

planning for a small business, financial control, fundamental book-

keeping in p small business tax and customer service a small business,

and financing...frachise and marketing.
I: Um huh. Uh, have you received technical assistance from uh...university


S: Yes, when I uh, first had the idea of conducting a seminar.-..went up to

the university and talked with Mr. Tommy Ammons. And he thought it was a

good idea, and he conducted the first seminar for us...or he conducted

two for us.

I: This is uh...one definite way that the university can be a asset to the

community. By uh...uh, by offering uh...their assistance uh, in any way

that may be needed in the community. Uh, I'd like to uh, see more of this

done, and I think there is a definite situation where we don't always ask

uh, for their service.

S: I think that's our...our big problem, uh Janie, because a lot of times we

accuse the university for not getting involved with the community, but

the community don't get involved with the university. And it's probably,

and it's one of those things that uh, if I was there I'd probably feel

the same way. That if you always expect me to do something, but what do

you do?




I: Right.

S: And I fell like it's got to be a two-way thing. The university can only

be what we make it be to us.

I: Right. Uh...in uh, Lumbee BusinessAan's Association, uh, are most of the

business men...uh, what kind of educational backgrounds do the majority

of those who are members have?

S: Well most of them...it's...I would say half of them is uh high school

graduates. We have some college graduates, and some that...that's not.

I: Uh huh. Uh, most of them then uh, got into the business, and have been

successful then, would you say, through their own initiative?

S: Yes, and this is why it's hard to get them involved in anything that

they don't quite understand.

I: Right.

S: The...the uh, man out at the machine shop is...I think he lacks about

uh, twelve hours finishing at the university, and he's young and what

have you. But some of the old ones had to make it on their own, and no


I: The business men.

S: It's hard to...it's hard to get those people. Because they have formed

their ideas of how things have to be, and how they should be, and you're

just not going to change them. But we are trying to work on attitudes,

and it's began to change a little bit.

I: Uh, what future plans do you have uh, for the uh, Lumbee Business MAn's

Association? What would you like to see it grow into?

S: Well we would like to see it grow into...you might say a county-wide, or




S: ...an Indian chamber of commerce type thing that they would have their

own office, they would uh, they would help each other in business

practices for uh, credit reasons and what have you...for customer


I: Uh, economically uh, what future businesses do you see there need to be,

or what future uh, type of businesses does the community as a whole uh,

do you see a need for?

S: Well, I feel like the community can support just about any kind of

business a man wants to go in. Because we don't have it. There's very

few businesses here. What we have is in Lumberton, but uh, Indian owned

businesses there's very few, and I feel like whatever they would like

to go in...it doesn't...uh, we...we say we have enough of uh, gas

stations, and which that's true everywhere. But uh, one gas station

that does...that would go in business now, would give better service,

a better looking gas station...he would make it.

I: Uh huh.

S: And this is what we're trying to promote is uh, Indian business men...to

compete. And not...and not expect the Indians to trade with them just

because they're Indians, or because they don't like uh, a white man, that

they're going to trade with the Indians. We don't want uh...we're trying

to portray, and trying to get ourselves to a point that we feel like that

they would trade with us because we give the best service. Because they

can buy it from us better, and get better service from us, and that's why

we want their business...not because I'm an Indian. Because we feel like

that if we uh, set ourselves up that you should trade with me because I'm

Indian...that's defeating the purpose that we're trying to work towards.




I: Uh huh.

S: But a lot of times that just don't work. We still get that, that he

should trade with me, that I'm an Indian.

I: Right.

S: I may be wrong, but we're trying to get out of that.

I: Uh huh. You said you were sending out a list uh, a mailing list, uh

asking...a questionnaire about this seminar. How many names do you have

on the mailing list? Uh, can you give me some idea of how many Indian

business men uh, you think there are or something? An approximate idea.

S: One of the...the best things we did from that side, that come out of the

business organization, I doesn't have a co...I don't have a copy of it

here, but we put together an Indian business brochure or booklet, directory,

that has all the Indian businesses in it. we...I...we don't have them all,

but we have quite a few.

I: That's good.

S: And we have about three hundred and sixty that's in the county. That's uh,

including the sheet rock hangers, the painters, the contract ------ ,

along that line.

I: Any type business?

S: Yeah.

I: Uh huh. Uh...do uh,then you would say that uh, Ward Clarke has the uh,

largest uh, business enterprise uh, amongst the Indian businesses?

S: Yes, he uh, his gro...



DATE: JUNE 8, 1973

S: ...is larger than any other in the county.

I: Then what uh, enterprise or business do you feel would come next in line

to him ?

S: I think Brooks Enterprises is...probably would come next.

I: And Brooks Enterprise is a uh, an enterprise made up of uh, several

brothers is it not?

S: Yes, uh...we have our doctor, and our only Indian doctor that's working

here...we have some more but they're not working here...is doctor...

I: A medical doctor.

S: Is a medical doctor, is Doctor Brooks. His brother runs the...is a

pharmicist at Pembroke uh...

I: Drug...

S: Drug Center. Paul Brooks is a contractor, he does...he runs the business.

And Jimmy Brooks is another brother that works with them. So the four of

them is in the building business together.

I: Uh huh. Uh- then uh...what do you feel, Jeff, is uh, the main hinderance

of getting the other three hundred and some uh, men uh, Lumbee Indian men

who are in business to become actively involved in the Lumbee Business Men?

S: Well this will...this will probably shock you Janie, but I think the

church is the thing that has kept the others from doing it because we have

been trained, brought up, believe...that we're.going to...we're going to




S: ...be all right. I mean we can...we can be passive as we would like.

We don't have to push. We don't have to...to really try to make a

dollar, because in the end, we're going to be all right.

I: Um huh.

S: And uh, this has been our training throughout our whole time, and

therefore, the...the people don't have the initiative, the desire to

make a dollar that you have to have in business.

I: Um huh.

S: They're...they're in business...if they-;make uh, tner-trosa1nd-dl-lars

a year...that's fine, that's more than anybody else that makes around

them. So why should they try to make more you know. And we went

through a thing, and even when I was in school, that I didn't try to

be the best student in school because uh, they had a thing then that

I thought I was somebody.

I: Um huh.

S: And I didn't want to be somebody, I wanted to be part of the group.

I: Um huh.

S: And this is...that's why I think we're running into a problem with

them, that uh, the people don't try to make it...it's not because they

can't...they don't try to make it because they have been taught that

they're going to be all right regardless of whether they make it or


I: Um huh. And as long as they're making ends meet, they really see,

have no desire to go any farhter.




S: As long as they can make ends meet, they don't worry about how much

they're going to have for next year, they don't worry/biout how much

they save for retirement, because an Indian very)very seldom retires.

I: Um huh.

S: Because up until ten years ago, I didn't know an Indian retired...not

until some of them started retiring from teaching school.

I: Um huh...right....uh, but that's true too. Uh, then uh...would you

say that we Lumbee Indian people are a very very religious sect of


S: Yes, I think so. Moreso...more than any...excuse me...more than any

group I have ever saw.

I: Um huh.

S: And too it may be their...their way of escaping the...the hard work,

the hard knocks it takes to be a successful business person. It's not

easy, and if they feel like that they...and they can convince their-

self that they're going to be all right whether they do it or not,

sure, they won't do it.

I: Um huh.

S: They will take their time to fish and hunt and what have you.

I: Uh, what was your initial membership, uh, is the organization


S: Yes, the organization is growing. Uh, not by leaps and bounds...we

haven't pushed yet for membership because we didn't want to...so

many times in the past organizations has started...the Indians have

started organizations, and they'll go for four or five months, and



S: ...they're dead. They might go for a year, and they'll completely

peter out. So we were trying to start an organization...it took us

from uh...we started getting together in July, and it was October

before we selected officers of the organization. And uh, November

we installed the officers in their positions, and we brought the

organization along slow to uh...for everyone to understand what was

going on. Yet it was uh...we did run into problems because uh...it

would have been easier for us to meet one night, form the organization,

the next night, we're on the road.

I: Uh huh.

S: But you get people involved then that might not be involved in...in

six months. They might lose interest. But the way we feel like we

brought it along...the people that we have now is going to be involved

you know, until. Because when we formed the steering committee to

start work in setting up the organization, we had people on the

steering committee that...that don't attend the meetings now.

I: Um huh.

S: It's not that they got...uh...had a disagreement with the organization,

they just lost interest.

I: Right...right.

S: And that's what we were trying to....

I: So it is an organization that you have to keep going in order to uh,

keep the interest there?

S: Yeah, we try to have something every two months, some outside

activity of some nature.




I: Uh, who is the...who are some of the officers in the uh business

men's organization?

S: Well being...from working here and what have you, I was elected

president of the organization, which is...I don't feel like it's a

good thing. But I felt like that probably I should do it in order

to get the organization to moving.

I: Right.

S: The vice-president of the organization, Mr. Raymond Lowery, that

operates the machine shop...he's doing a real good job. Uh, a

teacher, a business man, is the secretary, James B. Locklear...that

owns Tourist Oil Company. We have a secretary...well, he's secretary,

the treasurer is Curtis Puriss...is a cashier at Lumbee Bank. The uh,

Program Director is Bruce Sweat, he's an insurance salesman, and
operates a service station...Bruce's American. Uh, J.P. Thomas is

the publicity director, he is uh...operates Stern Life Insurance

Company in Pembroke. Those are the officers.

I: Uh...then do you...is this uh, organization only for men...do you

have any women participate?

S: We would like to have uh women in the organization. We sent out

letters and what have you, but it's been hard to...to get women

involved. The women have an organization called The Professional

Women's Organization, so that covers that.

I: Right...uh huh.

S: I think the main thing we're working with though Janie, is the





I: Right.

S: Changing the attitude towards business, and if it can be changed by

the Professional Women's Organization, that's fine. If we change the

attitude in ours, that's the main thing we're after.

I: Really though, there's not...you don't have too many uh, Indian

women who are in business for themselves...do you?

S: The Indian women that's in business is uh...operates beauty shops.

I: Beauty shops, and a few fabric shops.

S: That's...that's the extent of it.

I: Um huh. Uh, what do you contribute this to, do you think it's

tradition of our people to believe that the woman's place is in the

home...uh, is this uh...do you think this is characteristic of Indian


S: Well I know it...it was that way#-and-.uh...my family for a long time.

I: Um huh.

S: But I think the...the big thing that controls that line of thought,

is that Indian people is always on the buying side of the counter.

They're never behind the counter. And women naturally looks to their

husbands, and if their husbands not in business. If we don't have

that many uh, big Indian businesses, we're not going to have any

women's business.

I: Right.

S: Because the women is not going to take the lead in business. But it's

changing, and in the next five years I think there'll be quite a

few changes in that line.




I: Um huh.

S: Because I think we'll have our...our women in the insurance business,

have their own rea/estate and insurance business, and that kind of


I: Uh, what type of...let's get back to...uh, I asked a question before,

and you didn't give me any really competent answers...what types of

businesses do you feel that would be necessary to upgrade the

economic level of this community? Do you think we need more uh,

industrial plants...uh, do you think we need an Indian owned uh,

some type of manufacturing...uh, what type of businesses...do you

think we need credit unions...uh, what type of...?

S: Well, the organization...the business man's organization is in the

process of starting a Pembroke Finance Compamy.

I: All right.

S: And uh...we think that's a need. We don't feel like it's morally right

because of the interest rates that they charge, uh, but when the

Indian people or black people will go down to Lumberton, and they

have eight small loan companies there...small finance companies,

and they borrow money from them. Uh, we feel like we should get our

share. Not because we think it's right...because most of us that's

in the uh...in it doesn't agree with it, but if they're going to

spend their money, we feel like that we should get the money. And if

we can get it, it's our duty to get it. But uh, the industries that

that I would be in favor of, is uh, local owned businesses...not

big, they start their own business. I'm not totally in favor of




S: ...bringing in big industry to the uh...the community. Because if

you bring in big uh Industry, you bring in uh...large department

stores to follow.

I: Uh huh.

S: So they get paid on Friday, and on Monday the money is going back

north again.

I: Right...right.

S: And what we're trying to do is come up with some solution to uh...to

keep the money in the community.

I: Uh huh.

S: Through selling like the uh...the...the machine company. They bring

money in, and very little leaves out. The uh cut and sew operation,

or the garment manufactury...they bring money in, and very little

leaves. But this is what uh...this is the only way that I can see

that we can upgrade our uh...our community. The businesses that we

need is just about any kind you can think of, because we need grocery

stores, and we need fine...we need a better uh...clothing store, and

what have you. We can use bakeries, uh...the-whole'...the whole thing.

I: Um huh...right. Uh...so how far in the stage have you gone to organ-

izing uh, some type of a credit association?

S: Well, the way we started this, we have twenty-five men that's

paying wo-thotsd-1l-ars apiece to get it started. And uh, we

have our charter drawn up, and we hope to start it the first of


I: Very good. Uh...do you find that Indian people are uh, dubious about




I: ...going into business? In the beginning do you think they have a lack

of self-confidence?

S: I think that's very very true because uh, you always have a lack of

self-confidence when you're doing something you know nothing about.

I said earliermy sister went to Charlotte because she wanted to be

secretary, you couldn't be one here. And that was uh...umm, I'm

getting older than I thought...that was about twenty years ago. But

if we couldn't have a...uh...uh...a lady to be a secretary twenty

years ago...of course, we could never own a...a business. And it's

a period of time you have to go through with. You know you have to

be a secretary before you can be a manager, and you have to be a

manager before you can own the business.

I: Right.

S: And that's about the state we're getting in now, that we have a few

key managers in different positions, and in the next five or six

years I think that we will begin to own big businesses. I think

Indians will get in big business.

I: Are there uh money...is there money readily available for minority

uh, people, or Indian people who want to venture out into the business

world? Uh, say a person has an idea or a concept that he feels like,

feels like would be a growing business in this community...what does

he do once he makes the decision to pursue that?

S: Well, if he has a good idea, he feels like it's good, and he comes

in and I talk to him...I talk to uh, the small administration qt//

Charlotte to get their feeling on it, to get their experience on




S: that type of business. If they think it's good, we start trying to

put together uh, a loan package for him. Because....

I: And what goes into that?

S: This is uh, a projected income statement that he feels like he would

make. Uh, a financial statement on himself that he's going to

inject in the-business. How much thistbusiness is,going-tocost to

go into. The employees that he would have in the business, and that

line of thought. But uh, too many times we have these good ideas, or

we feel like they're good. We go to a bank to borrow money, and that's

all we have is an idea. We doesn't have our projected...our projections

wrote down. We just have them in our head, and the banker just don't

go along with that stuff.

I: Right...right.

S: So therefore we get uh, frustrated and we don't try anymore.

I: What percentage of uh...the necessary amount to establish a business

can be borrowed through S.B.A.?

S: Uh, ejglr f e per cent.

I: Eightry-f ve? And the individual must come up with the other f-iteen?

S: F4A-en. That can be in...in property or any type of uh...assets that

he has.

I: Have you had many people to apply for S.B.A. loans who have been


S: The...very very few, because I talk to the person, and uh, a lot of

times when they come in with their good ideas, and I talk to the -

person, and they finally realize that they are not sure of the idea




S: ...that they're talking about.

I: Um huh.

S: A lot of times I've completed loan applications for people...they

look over them, and they lose interest in them. They don't go back.

And if a man is not interested in going in business...I don't feel

like it's my duty to try to force him to do it. Because if he's

not sold on it, and I'd force him to go in it, he's not going to be

a success. So he has a little bit that he has to do in that line. I

think I've only had uh, one application that I have submitted that

was turned down, and the reason it was turned down was because

uh, S.B.A...Small Business Administration thought it would uh,

was uh, an investment venture more than a business venture.

I: Um huh.

S: So really I can't say that...I've gotten all the help that Icould

ask for from the Small Business Administration.

I: Does a person have to have land at that particular time on which to

build his business on?

S: No, he doesn't.

I: Or will they fund him money to acquire property?

S: This is a strange thing with the Small Business Administration. Say

that I was operating a business, and doing a good business in

operating, and I decided that I wanted to buy the business. They

wouldn't loan me the money to buy the business...buy the building.

They would loan me the money to increase my stock to do other little

things to help my business. They loan money for the business...not




S: ...to the individual.

I: Um huh.

S: But now if I had the idea...the same idea, right across the street,

and didn't have the building, I could buy the building here and go

into business...I could borrow money to buy the building, and go in

business. But after I get set up in the building, I can't buy the

building...or they won't loan me the money to buy the building.

I: Right.

S: Because then they feel like it's not helping the business...they're

helping me, and that's what happened on the loan that was turned down.

I: Um huh.

S: That the man was in the business, he was doing good in the business,

and he wanted to buy the business because he was going to save on

uh, rent. Uh, there was an office side of it that he could rent, and

he could make some money on it you know. But they wouldn't go along

with that. Because they said if he's doing that well, he can borrow

money from the bank, and they're not competing with the banks.

I: Then is it...is it better for a minority person who wants to go

into business to stick a loan through S.B.A. or through a...like a


S: Well, the...the big saving like I said earlier was S.B.A. You can

go in business with fifteen per cent...a minority can. If he wants

to borrow a hd -hdhausan D-1uars he has to have fiifteem-thousand,

but if he's uh...has to go through the bank, he has to have a third,

or...or more. He would have to have t irtytousand-f--thir-ty-f-ive...




S: ... fortythusarrid- lars in order to borrow a hundrtedthousand


I: Right.

S: So that's why you would go through S.B.A. You can get started for

less money invested.

I: How do they have to pay this back?

S: Monthly payments. They go through basically the same uh...same uh,

screening that a bank does.

I: Um huh.

S: It doesn't have to be quite as strong of a reference and what have

you as the bank, but you have to be in fairly good shape credit-wise

in order to borrow money.

I: I noticed on the wall you have a uh. North Carolina Governor's Award

Program for Pembroke. Uh, what was your role in that Jeff, and

exactly what is that?

S: That was a big lesson to be gained when I got started in that. Uh,

I was...like I said, when I was hired here, I was supposed to be

looking for industry and this kind of thing. But the people that

hired me a lot of aeeas-eions didn't know what my full responsibility

was, and what I could do...what a man could do.

I: Um huh.

S: So...I got involved with the Governor's Award Program to win for

Pembroke because uh, the State of North Carolina has a program

the Governor's Award Program that they

have for small towns. I think there's about sixty of them in North




S: ...Carolina now that has uh, participated and won the Governor's

Award Program. But if an industry is coming to uh...interested in

locating in North Carolina they show them these towns first.

I: Um huh.

S: But I met with the town board, as far as talking about attitudes,

I met with the town board, and talked to them about it, and they

thought it was a good idea, that they guessed go ahead with it.

So I...I did everything, uh, myself...got the Kiwanis, got the uh,

Lions, and what have you involved in the town clean-up, uh, improve-

ment and everything. But then when we had the banquet, uh...the, the

mayor and one town commissioner come. So I failed in getting them

involved in the Governor's Award Program. I had the award, but I

didn't get the people involved in it that should.have been.

I: Right.

S: And this is the whole thing about attitude. Now if I'd a went back,

and I...and had kept on them...they would have saw the need that we

doesn't have the sewer system that we have, or we doesn't have the

water. And now when the town board meet they're going to t(lak about

a...a new police car, or...or something of that nature.

I: Uh, what were some of the uh requirements for uh, receiving the


S: You have to have four industrial sites for industry...that we have.

It's located on the rail, which you know that Pembroke is a

crossroads for rail.

I: Right.




S: East and west...north and south, uh, you have to conduct a clean-up

campaign to beautify the town. You have to present uh...an audit...an

audit of the town, the...the population, the water system, the sewer

system, the uh...the government set up, your tax rate. You have to

get all the information you possibly can about a town...submit. And

then uh...after you do your clean-up you get these other things...

this is a book here...that we had to submit to uh...to win the

Governor's Award Program. This is a little...what I'm talking about

here, and you can see what...But we had to do the little things...

prepare it in a booklet like this, submit it to the...the state.

The state judges it, and if we win we get a letter. This one come

from Bob Scott...that we did win the Governor's Award Program. And

those are the things that you did. I think it's a good program. I

think it uh...gets people involved in their community...know more

about the community, because a lot of times a man can come in, that

worked with the state, and know more about Pembroke than I know.

I: And is...is this particular information here on file inThe state

for uh, interested uh, industry to see what they...uh...come into

North Carolina?

S: Yes. Yes it is.

I: Um huh...uh, then uh...Jeff uh...what is the main hinderance to uh,

recruiting uh, businesses to uh leaave-Pembroke...uh, industry to the

Pembroke area?




S: Uh...the attitudes of the uh...people in powers that we have, or

that holds position. With the uh...uh, the average man on the street,

doesn't quite understand what it takes for industry, and how much industry

can mean to a community. Say if we move a plant here...that we have a

plant here that's employing-, a hundred people...that would mean that we

need of course a hundred houses. We would uh, increase our school

system by about fifty people, which would mean two extra teachers,

and the whole thing down the line. And the man that's running his...his

gas station on the corner...it means that he's going to have uh...

probably twenty-five tanks of gas more a week, and that kind of stuff.

And it's hard for us to get to them to see how...how they're going to

benefit from it.

I: Um huh.

S: See if...if they're...and that's what we will probably move in in the

business organization sooner or later. If they will uh make a pledge

of Q-4kttded-rlas. a year to the organization to do this type of work,

because they see where they can make it tenfolds in a years time.

I: Right...uh huh. Uh, what about uh...as.it is now as far as water and

sewer down in uh...towards Pembroke area? Is there a problem there?

S: Our sewer facility was built in '70. And uh, they're running just about

at uh, the peak now...the peak capacity. Our water system is bui--t on a

loop system, which uh, you get pressure all the way around it, water

pressure. And uh...we doesn't have the water pressure at the plant sites




S: that we have, that would be uh...that we could have uh, industry in. So we

have to do something about the water and sewer.

I: Both of them...um huh.

S: And you know how the townspeople are, you talk...start talking about

increasing that, and you have to increase their tax to do it...the sewer

system, and they're going to start kicking about it.

I: Right.

S: Which I can understand why.

I: Yeah. Uh, what kind of a working relationship then have you had with the uh,

Pembroke uh, administration...uh, town council and so forth?

S: Very)very little, because we get back to planning again, that we have talked

about in Indians, and they hadn't really planned, or they don't really think

that far ahead. I gue...I better not say think...they haven't planned for

advanced uh...growth of the town. They try to satisfy the needs now.

I: Um huh.

S:, And that's as far as they go.

I: Then your main work...line of work here has been working on organizing the

Lumbee Businessm3an's Association, uh assisting people uh, with gaining S.B.A.

and uh, private loans...uh have you gone into any other uh, branches of uh,

work here, or has this been your main concentration?

S: No, I...I've been working with the business, whatever the business does by

helping secure contracts, uh, Federal contracts, State contracts.

I: Have you had very good response in this line ?




S: Yes, uh...we have. It's not...it's not the state, and it's not the...the

uh, the governments fault uh, that we haven't gotten them. It's the peoples

hasn't come around to accept them because they're not supposed to be doing

that type...kind of work. It's all right...they feel like it's all right

for them to sub-contract it from a contractor that does it, but they have

never been in a position to do the contracting theirselves, and it's hard to

move them to the point. In other words, telling them that...yeah, you can

...you can be the contractor.

I: Right.

S: And not a sub-contractor.

I: Um huh.

S: But that's...that's coming about...that takes time, and it's uh...then too

we're working on the attitudes of the people'towards business.

I: So all during our conversation we keep coming back to the word attitudes,

and this seems to be the main holdback then in the uh...whole progress of uh,

our Lumbee Indian businesses...is being able to form the attitudes to uh,

go beyond, and to be prosperous. Uh...

S: I think that's the attitude of the Indian people. If a...I think it's the...

the problem is the attitude of the Indian people. Right...nothing is going to

defeat him.

I: Um huh.

S: But if he doesn't have the right attitude, anything can do it. This is

whether it's in school or what. And we have dropped, or we have never uh,

put much emphasis on...on planning, which if you plan, you have to be




S: ...planning your attitudes too. That's changing your attitude if you could.

So I think...and then going back to the church, like I said earlier...the

church has hampered the attitudes that we have had.

I: What attitudes did your family have towards the churches you were a member of?

S: My uh father was very very religious. My mother also. My father did all right

I suppose, as well as most, or probably better than the average. But he's

never placed emphasis on making money. Never has. He's...he's tight...he's

stingy...very conservative. But for him to uh...

I: Uh...

S: The attitudes through urch...like I said, my father has never been strong

to make money, as far as investments...he's never invested. The money that he

got was through work.

I: But don't you...don't you feel like the Indian person then is afraid of 1

investing money...scared he's going to lose it?

S: True. Now the Indian...

I: Once you got it you better hold on to it?

S: We have been taught that. We have always been taught to saving for a rainy

day. You know, like...like I said earlier, that we're going to make it you


I: Right.

S: So why should we try to make a whole lot. We work everyday, we save a little

bit of what we...we worked for, and that's th- way we make it. We don't take

what we save for investments.

I: Even...even when the uh...Lumbee Bank was organized then uh, they tried to sell

stock, they had difficulties because Indian people were afraid to invest money.




S: True...true. And this is the thing, but if we get back...if we can just

change the attitudes of people. To get in a...ina position that uh,

attitude of the Indian people are to make money.

I: But don't you feel though uh, the fear of investing comes from not having

known what investing can do?

S: I think so.

I: Never having done it before this?

S: True...well, true, but uh, our preacher every Sunday morning tells us that

that's wrong.

I: Uh huh.

S: That's wrong to have uh...money.

I: Uh huh.

S: Money is the root of all evil.

I: Right, that's true.

S: So we don't...we don't go for that kind of stuff because we want to be right,

we want to make it one day.

I: Uh huh...uh huh...that's true.

S: That's how we are.

I: That's really true. Uh...that uh, you know as far as uh, having stock...or,

this is something that's really foreign to our people. And I think this is

one reason the uh...Lumbee Bank people had uh, problems of selling their stock,

because stock is a word that's foreign, other than uh, a movie that they might

have had at the uh, S.B.A. Uh...

S: Well, the Indian people that's tried it in the past .uh, self-originated ideas,

and they sold stock for it. Most of them lost. Just about every time, they lost




S: And they are kind of scared of that.

I: Uh huh. Even your Lumbee paper that uh...went for a few years...well,

everybody goes back to that. And uh, well people invested money, and uh, they

didn't make it you know. Because of lack of uh...poor management. In fact they

had a white man uh, managing the paper. Uh, you know, one bad experience like

this preached all over the community don't you think?

S: I...I'm quite sure that that had a big part to play in it, because we

place more value...Indian people does...place more value on their homes than

whites. Now you're not going to get an Indian person, if he owns his house,

if he owns his home...to mortgage his house to get money to go into business.

He's not going to do it.

I: Um huh.

S: Because that's the only thing he has. Now the reason of that, a white man

can do it in Lumberton, and lose his house...he can move to Charlotte and get

another house, and he's all right. But the Indian people that's here is not

going to move.

I: Right.

S: And they're embedded in what they do, and they have to watch it, and they

have to be more careful of what they do because they're not going to


I: Um huh.

S: And that creates the problem of gamble that you have to take if you're

going in business. You have to be willing to.

I: Have we not also been taught that to gamble with anything is wrong?




S: I'm quite sure so.

I: UH, so I think you've got a good point in saying that uh, a lot of it does go

back to our religious teaching. Uh, because uh, Indian people...well most

Indian wouldn't you say do go to church every Sunday morning?

S: Uh, I would think most of them do. Uh the churches we go to is uh...we have

probably more churches in our radius...about eight miles of Pembroke, than any

other place. But the churches that we have, is not nice churches. I mean they,

the people that go there are nice, and the service is nice and what have you,

but I'm talking about the structure, the building itself, compared with uh,

a church in Lumberton, or a church in Red Springs, or a white church.

I: Don't...don't you feel like though the Indian churches are beginning to change

as far as that goes? Uh, most of them are beginning to either add on, or

build a better structure?

S: Yes, that is because we are...we are making more money than we have in the

past. And so we have more money to spend for them.

I: Uh huh.

S: Now I...I attend a church...Prospect Methodist Church is the largest

Methodist Church in the United States.

I: Right...right.

S: We have an enrollment of 600 people.

I: Largest Indian Methodist Church?

S: Yes. Uh, but it has uh...it's changed quite a bit. The collections are greater

now than what they were five years ago.

I: Uh huh. Uh...then do you feel like uh...this teaching uh...about uh...this




I: ...hinderance we talk about...that the church has created an attitude.

Uh...do you think some of this comes from the fact that uh...the majority

of the ministers are not uh.. .fl-trained ministers, that they have uh,

set down and learned what they've learned on their own, without uh, being

able to expand on their own personal knowledge?

S: I think that's very very)very true.

I: Or do you really feel like this has something to do with this?

S: The ministers that have been to seminary don't think along the same line as

a minister who has not.

I: Right.

S: Because uh, we have quite a few ministers that's self-educated ministers.

They know the Bible, and they try to live by the Bible, and that's it.

I: Right.

S: They only has heard the Bible from their parents. They only heard the Bible

from their own reading, and formed their opinion from that.

I: Um huh.

S: They haven't heard other views on the Bible.

I: Um huh.

S: And the teachings of the Bible. That from a...the uh, ministers that have

been to seminaries has.

I: Right...right.

S: And they are more liberal than the...the self-educationists.

I: Uh, I'ver heard it said that to bring about social change amongst the uh,

Indian people, and to get Indian people motivated, we've got to venture out

into the churches. Do you feel that's true?




S: Well now...I don't want to knock the churches because I've met with the

uh, Bear Swamp Ministers Association quite a few times when I first started

here, Because I had to get the feelings of the people in the church. I had

to get the feelings of the ministers.

I: Um huh.

S: To make sure thatlIwas going in the right direction.

I: Well that's...that's what im saying. Uh, too often we overlook this aspect,

and this is one aspect that Indian people look to, is to the minister, and to

the church you know. Uh, we've gone around them so to speak, and not really

gotten them involved in the whole process of bringing about social change.

S: Well uh...could uh you turn..... Well this is uh, when I was talking about

the ministers and I met with the ministers, I felt as though that I should

get their feelings to start. So I give a speech to the uh, Bear Swamp Minister's


I: Uh, define for us a little bit what is the Bear Swamp Minister's Association?

S: It's uh...it's the Babptist ministers that covers-uh...there're:forty-two...

forty-two churches that's members of it. And it covers Robeson County,

Scotland County, Hope County, Gladen, Sampson, and uh, Dillon County in

South Carolina, and another county in South Carolina.

I: Is this all Indian?

S: It's all Indian ministers. It's an Indian organization.

I: Baptist?

S: Baptist ministers.

I: O.k.

S: But in the speech that I give them here, I said that the uh, times are




S: ...changing all over the world, but the church hadn't changed to keep up with the

times. Back when the church was formed that we had, that was the only place that

we could, as Indian people, could get together, could meet anybody, was at the


I: Right.

S: But the things are changed uh, a whole lot now. But the role of the church to

keep up with the changes of the people has to change also.

I: Right.

S: This is what uh...one thing that I believe you can never find the Bible wrong,

because however you...you can interpretate the Bible in so many different uh,

ways that you...you just can't...what was truthful now, a hundred years ago,

reading this part of the scripture...I can read it today and get a completely

different meaning.

I: Uh huh.

S: The same thing, but what would have been wrong a hundred years ago is right

now. See, it's completely different. But this is what uh...is what I said to

them, uh...that I thought that they should change. For the people here in

Robeson County, the church has been the only social institution which we

could gather collectively. But uh, like I said, that...that's the main thing with

the church. And I...I go on in my...in my speech here to tell how the role of

the church should be played to a community. Because you can draw uh, a circle

around any church...a mile radius, and there's people in that mile radius that

needs help, that the church doesn't help. So they are not really taking care of

what the church is set for. The church that we know it now in our community,

takes care of Sie church members.




I: Um huh.

S: They go there for self-satisfaction.

I: Right.

S: And not to do the work of the church. But I feel like that the uh, the churches

role is...it has to change in order to uh...to meet the obligations in which we,

which we have set up. But it's uh...that's our biggest collective people that we

have is in the church. And if we find how to motivate those people, we're all

right. But most people are not going to be motivated in a church, because they

can hide under the churches roof to keep from doing anything. To keep from doing

their responsibilities.

I: Right.

S: And the ministers who's brought..I give each a copy of the speech, and they

brought out some of the things in their sermons and which we have to work on,

our attitudes, like we do everyone else.

I: Um huh.

S: That how important it is that industry moves in, and how important it is for a

man to make uh, uh, fitfa -rsado iaL rs a year. How much it can mean to the

church, and his beliefs. And that's why I...I think that our...our big thing is

in the church. I'm not an atheist or anything like that, I believe in the


I: Yeah, well I understand what you're saying then...this is one of the things in

particular we've been trying to capture with our oral history program, you know, the

life-styles of the people, and this is one thing that uh, hadn't really been

expounded upon in any of my interviews, and I'd like for you to give us that in

detail, so that we would uh, have your concepts there.




S: Well let me say this then. I...we're probably running out of time. I can give you

the speech, and you can put it in the uh...you can put what part you would like

on here, because some of it might not be relevant to what you would like. I can

give you the speech and you can put what you'd like in it. I think it's very good.

I: Um huh...um huh.

S: Or I got a lot of response from it.

I: Um huh. Uh...you say you got a lot of response from it. What type of response

from it?

S: All of them are the same thing, they're favorable, they know it's so, but to get

them to act on it has been a little hard to do. They just hate to move. You know

it's one of those things like uh...one of the ministers was telling me after I

give the speech, and it made him think of a joke that...that he had heard.

I: Um huh.

S: That relates to this...and he said a lot of times we...we...it passes our head,

we think we're talking to somebody else...plus we're taking a message to somebody

else. But said, I understand what you're...what you're trying to get to. The...the

joke was that he uh...this minister...would always preach to this man that was

always sitting on the front pew. And every time that he would leave he would

say, you told them about it today. You really put it to them today. And he

arranged his sermon just to preach to this one individual, and he would always
come back... he would miss what he was talking about, and say preacher you really

told them about it today. So one day it rained, and nobody come but this man,
(I '1) f
and he said well...the man said well I...I think that we should probably call

the services off. The preacher said, no, the Lord has given me a message to give,

and I'm going to...I'm going to give it. He said, well go ahead. So they went through




S: ...the whole service, so he went through his same...so he went through his same

original that he always goes through, the minister...he went to the door, the
man come out to shake hands like he always do, and he said, preacher...if

you'd a...if they would have been here today, you would have certainly told them

about it today. So that's...that's the attitude that most of the ministers get.

That when they're talking they feel like that you're not talking to them. You're

always talking to somebody else.

I: Somebody else.

S: So I think the uh...the speech, and the involvement that-I.had with the ministers

went over quite well. Uh, the way that I did get to some of the people......



Lum 82 AB

S: ...what the ministers did, and the people in general, they don't seem to

quite understand what you are trying to dol nd when you're talking to

them they don't feel like it's them that you're talking to. You're talking

to the other man all the time. But uh. like I said, they...we have been

able to get loans from the ministers that...that I visited, that I talked

to, because they do talk to the most people.

I: Right...right.

S: In the county. And they are the uh, they're the setters of the uh,

attitudes that we have.

I: Right. Now do you feel like uh, the ministers are afraid of venture

out...venturing out, from becoming the stereotype uh, concept that many

people have that a minister should be.? Do you think they're afraid that

the congregations will uh, ridicule them if they step out of this


S: Well uh, some of that's true I feel like, but uh, a lot of times you know

we have ministers that's not full-time ministers, and most of our

ministers are that way that's not full time. And they have to work for a

living like everyone else, and preach on Sundays.

I: Right.




S: And they can't speak out a lot of times like uh, they would like to.

Now where we're getting the ones that speak out full time...is the...is

the full-time ministers, and ones that is being heard is full-time. And

of course they're the ones that has been to seminars...uh, seminaries and

what have you. They've got their degree in ministry.

I: Uh huh.

S: So uh it's going through an educational process that they are going

through also. And when that is completed, I don't know how long it will

be, but if a man is...if the man's a minister, he's had some training in

that profession, but you know, most of our people say that if a man is

called to preach, he don't need no training.

I: Right...right.

S: But that...you know that's not necessary so.

I: Right.

S: Because he's dealing with people's emotions, and people's lives.

I: Well uh, then uh, the best thing for like this is the need that uh...we

need to venture out, and to working more closely with the church. And uh,

seeing that the uh, church ventures out, and the needs of the people other

than uh...those uh, religious needs. But in order to have religious

experiences, other needs have to be meet...met, and there's a il y^ -'

concept of the church in the needs of people, than just preaching to them

on Sunday.

S: True, this is what I...I...I feel like. That the uh...the church has to

go beyond the spiritual needs of an individual.

I: Right.




S: And that's what the church did. That's all it had to do fifty years ago.

And it's still doing the same thing. I think the uh, the advancement of

the people is getting uh, by the church. And the church has to keep up.

For an example, the...the Catholic religion has changed some of their

beliefs, or some of their doings in the past, and we have to change ours

also to keep up with the times. I don't think it's wrong because it was

done in the 1600s this way. Uh, in the 1600s, you know we didn't have air

planes, and we didn't have cars and what have you, and things are

changing, and we have to change with the times. Religion has to change

with the times. You don't have to change your moral standards.with the

times, morals can be the same. But we have to have money to operate

today, and uh, most of the churches don't speak, or don't preach that a

man should make money. He should pay his tithes in church, but he

shouldn't make...he shouldn't make, you know, go overboard making money.

I: Right. Jeff uh, what's your feelings about the Lumbee name?

S: Well uh, I maybe classified by saying this Janie as an apple Indian. But

being an Indian, I never really think of myself as being an Indian. I'm

an Indian, and know I'm an Indian, but I can't let being an Indian stand

in my way or hinder what I'm going to do. Because I can't sit back and

say well, I'm an Indian, and I should have so and so because I'm an

Indian. I don't feel like anybody should have anything because they're so

and so, because if we're going to fit in the uh, in the America's United

States here dociety...we have to go along, and we have to do the things
/ 0
that...that makes the country run. If we were in control of the country,




S: ...we could...we could back off an do what we wanted to, but we can't do

it, we're in a minority, and the only way we're going to progress...we

have to get in the mainstream of the way the things go. And uh, most of

our...or when I was small, and uh....see an Indian..on television, he

always had feathers. He was a stereotype Indian and what have you, and

I know that I was never that way. I never had feathers, and the only

difference between myself and a whiteman was uh...was the color. And

there's not that much difference in color. Our uh, our capability of

learning is the same because you never saw Indians win wars on television.

You never saw them do anything constructively, but most of the time the

Indians was always right. They never...they never started anything. They

didn't move in on the settlers, unless the settlers moved in on them.

And it was always somebody else that caused them to do it, but they never

did get that credit for fighting back. They always got ridiculed for

fighting back. And as long as I take this attitude, and try to live in

the United States, you just can't do it because you have to fight back.

There's a...I heard a man say not long ago that the Indian people in

Robeson County didn't have the guts it takes. Which when he first said

it kind of upset me and I thought about it for awhile, and I...I had to

agree with him, which I didn't tell him that I did. But I had to agree

with him because...in order to be a success here, we have to have that

ability to fight back. And the Indians don't fight back unless that is

the last alternative to do. They might say uh, some things that's not

nice, but you can say something else to them, and they get mad and leave.




S: And you can't get mad and leave and fight back. So we say, well what...

what's the good of fighting back, you know, we are going to...we're going

to be ,right. It goes back to our...our training in the church again,
we're going to be aright, so why should I have this extra thousand

dollars, I'll get along without it. And I've heard my father say it

quite a few times that...that he's as good, or better than I am if he

would have got so and so.

I: Right.

S: So that's the training that we have been through. I can't hold them

directly responsible, because their parents think the same thing. And

it's been handed down and handed down, but it has to stop someplace.

I: Right.

S: And if a man should get wrapped up in being an Indian...and that's

what I am...you know, and that's all, and uh, I'm against everything

white. I'm against everybody that don't see eye to eye with me. I don't

feel like they can ever make it. And uh, I fe l this way about the

Indian name...of Lumbee. It don't really matter to me what the name is,

but we have a name of Lumbee, and I feel like we should keep the name
of Lumbee instead of trying to undo the past. We are to busy looking

behind to ever see what's ahead. And Indian people, we're kind of like a

mule with blinds on, we can omly see in one direction, and that usually

is behind. We...they got the Indian name that uh...I was young when they

got it, so it didn't really...I didn't know that much about it. I didn't

uh, it wasn't real popular then to be an Indian because of the association

we had in the county with black and what have you. And most of the




S: ...Indians that were Indians at that time would have liked to been

something else. But uh, the name, it don't bother me. I don't have any

feelings one way or the other. I have to uh...to look at what I can do as

an individual for development of the people that's around me, and they

can't develop unless the county develops, and that includes blacks and


I: Well you say it doesn't bother you one way or the other, but then uh,

if there was a great movement and the tribal name changed again, do you

think we should continue going through name changes, and you wouldn't
be bothered, aiSd every two years our name was changed?

S: Well, I don't uh...I don't think it should.

I: Are you satisfied with the one we've got?

S: I'm satisfied with the one we have. Whatever it would be, I'm satisfied

with Lumbee now.

I: Right.

S: If it was changed...I don't feel like the Indians have time to try to

change something that's happened. We better...we should be preparing

for the future.

I: Right.

S: And what's happened in the past...let it happen in the past, and make

sure things like that doesn't happen again. But it's going to take too

many...too much of your time, my time to try to keep the name like it

is. We have another group over here trying to change the name, and where

does the progress come?

I: Uh huh. So uh, you're satis...do you think most people are satisfied with

the Lumbee name?



S: I think most people accepts it for that reason. That uh, it's always

done, and why change it.

I: Um huh. Uh...then uh,what is your concept of being Indian?

S: Uh, the only Indians I know, is the Indians here. I've met some on

reservations in different places, and...but uh...the concept I have

of Indians...as smart a people as you're going to find, physically and

mentally...if they're given an opportunity to do so. But the thing -/fcl

we're missing as...Indian people...is not having the guts to demand

the...the...that opportunity.

I: Uh huh.

S: We felt like like that we should...the doors should open to us. Or we

should get something just...just because...no, I better not say just

because we are Indians, but we didn't have to fight it, we got the...the

college degree. We felt like we should be accepted because of our degree,

not because what we could do.

I: Uh huh. But then as...then as we were we sort of took our punishment, and

went on without uh questioning why.

S: We took hate against the white for not accepting us. But still the white

is geared to make money. The uh, United States is geared to make money,

and...and if he don't accept me for some reason, it's because he can make

more money with something else. Then asking why should he be giving us

these things of his own time, that he's worked at. It's the same at my

home, I'm not going to be giving somebody something that I have worked

hard to accumulate just because I feel sorry for the man. I'll give him

a little appeasement you know, and help him, but I'm not going to give



S: ...him my home.

I: Uh huh. Uh...do you think this is beginning to change do you think Indian

people are becoming more willing to fight back than what they were

fifteen years ago?

S: Well, I'm quite sure so. You know the incident happened with the Old Main

situation at Pembroke, was one of the first that I know of. Was where

the Indian fin...they fought back. Not to...not for any capital gain, but

they fought back. But from that come a lot of things, uh...that

stimulated from it, that the Indians took a stand. We just didn't move

on. And it...you know the problems that we went through with to get

people to fight back on that issue.

I: Right.

S: And I don't think Old Main was the issue, as much as getting people to

fight back for something they believed in. The building sure meanta lot

to all of us, but the biggest thing on it was that we got the Indians to

fight back.

I: Uh huh. Uh...then uh, when you uh...what am I trying to say...is uh...you

think then that this was a stepping stone to a new day so to speak?

S: I would think so. I think it's the greatest thing that's happened to the

Indian people.

I: What would you like to see done with Old Main?

S: To be truthful Jane, I couldn't tell you.

I: You just want it left bhred?

S: I wanted it left there for the point to...for the Indians to fight

back was the reason I left it. But I'll leave the educational system to



S: ...the people that's into education...that has the degree in education,

that should know. And if they feel like that it uh...that it should be uh,

some type of museum or what have you, uh...that's fine with me. But I

hate for somebody to come down and say well, we should tear it down, or

we should do this, without questioning what they say. And that's been

our...our big problem here. We never question, we accept what a person


I: Uh, talking about part of that, you had an interesting experience

during the Old Main situation about a march one day. Would you uh,

uh...explain that to me, and uh, tell me about your hinderances that

you, you know, your apprehensions you felt about uh, doing something

like that.

S: Well, working at the agency here I couldn't get involved as much as

I'd liked to have. But working at the agency is what brought me to

realize that we had to. From...uh, from a selfish reason I imagine,

from my business development, I knew that we had to fight back, and

we had to instill that in the people that we were going to fight back.

So we uh, they met...we met one day about uh, well, it was at twelve,

there was about seven or eight men met. And they went through the

planning of how we were going to conduct the uh...saving Old Main.

And Mr. Danford Dial, Harold Deaves, -Dowden Brooks, and myself was at

the meeting, and we were coming back, and I said it would never work

Because uh, the ways that we were...they were planning to save the

building was the same way that the Indians had planned to do things

before. On the sympathy...just because...and what have you. Just because




S: ...it's nice...the morally thing to do. But you just don't operate on

morally rights in business all the time. You operate on what's legally

right. What's in the realms of law. So we decided that uh, or uh, I

talked to Harold Deaves about the possibility of marching, and everybody

was against the idea that we were at the meeting for. So we come back

here to the office, and we finally got Mr. Dials roused up so that he

was ready to march. So we got the signs made, and everything made to

march, and in the meantime I got a call to go downstairs. I didn't

think we were going to do it...really.

I: All along, you were leading on and saying do it, but you had apprehensions


S: Ain't no way I was going out there, because that was below the dignity

in which we had been raised to believe in.-

I: Right.

S: That's the way the blacks done it, that's-the.wayso and so done it, but

we were above that. We did it at a sophis...at...uh...uh, at a higher


I: A sophisticated way...yeah.

S: Right. So uh, in the meantime I got a call to come down stairs to...I had

some ladies down stairs that wanted to meet me. And they got,the signs

made up to...to uh...march. And they sent a gentleman to my office, and

said that they were ready, and I said to myself, you look at them damn

fools, they's going to march. And I didn't go and I stood there and

talked hoping they would go on.

I: Yeah... "4-eA .X-




S:Yeah. And so they didn't, and the man came back in about five minutes,

and said they...said they was ready to go. They must be serious, and I

still didn't leave because I didn't want to get involved in that. But

uh, then Harold Deaves stuck his head in the door, and said let's go.

So I went out, and I said I can't let.them know that I'm chicken.

I: Right.

S: I grabbed my sign and said let's go. But I thought we were just going

to walk across the street, and everybody was going to chicken out. But

as soon as we got across the street, Mr. Edwin...uh, Mr. Elmer Hunt, who's

a photographer at the college was up taking pictures of some of the

sorority houses, so he took our picture. I said, Oh my God! Put up...put

my sign up, and down the street we went.

I: Wanting to turn around all the time?

S: Wanting to leave, hiding behind the sign and this kind of thing, So we got

about half way up there, and we were hollering "Save Old Main," and this

kind of stuff. We marched around the school house and this, you know.

And it was...it was embarrassing but when I got started the embarrassment

left me then. And that kind of thing would never embarass me again. If I

-feelthe need I egT ...I can do it in a minute now. But I'd never..,I

never was in anything like that. So we come back, and we...here, and when

we got back, the lady from he Robesonian was here to take our picture.

So I said let me run in and get Harold Deaves. And I wasn't/Iaout to go

back out there and get my picture made. But still it...it's the training

that we had gone through.

I: Right...it's what we've been taught, you don't rock the boat, and uh, you

be nice to old Indians. 65



S: That...that's it. But come to find out, that the next night we had a

board meeting at LRDA, and they got on us pretty hard about doing it.

We shouldn't have done it, which I agree, we shouldn't have done it

during working hours. But uh, come to find out after the meeting, we got

in the car, and I...I made a statement. I was sitting in the car with

Harold Deaves, and Mr.Dial, and uh, I made the statement that how

scared I was, and they turned around and looked at me, an said ou

were scared? Said, we were scar-ed to death; we thought you were the

only one that wasn't scarred. So come to find out, everybody in the

group was shamed as they could be, but they done it. And that's the

important thing, that we have to portray to the Indian people. Regardless

of embarrassment we uh, Indian people are...they fear..I don't know

whether you say fear...they...they're just scarikd to be embarassed.

I: Right.

S: They don't ask questions a lot of times because they think that you

should know the answer.

I: Uh huh.

S: You want to...but it's part of our training that we've been through in the

past. Uh, that...that if we don't know, we're scared to ask, and that

kind of stuff, and we've been pushed around. Not all the time their fault,

but most of the time our fault. And I come to realize after the Old Main

issue that whatever we do we have to do it. And the fault that we're in,

the reason we're in this conditions we are, is our own fault. And we can't

blame nobody else, because if we start blaming somebody else, we can never

change the reasons.




I: Right.

S: A lot of times it's not all our fault, but unless we believe it's our fault

we're going to stay always separating somebody else.

I: So uh...be though...even though uh, it did sort of damage your dignity

to go out and march, you feel now that it was a worthwhile thing for you

as a person?

S: Oh sure...sure. And I think everybody should go through that experience.

I: Uh huh. Uh...

S: It made me at that time do something that I believed in strongly. And...

and I took the action necessary to do it. But I'd...I'd never done it

before. I'd always said it would have been nice if we'd done so and so,

and it would of been better if they hadn't of done it, but then we...we

got out to do the things that...that we wanted done. And that's what

I wanted to talk...I was saying earlier, that we don't have the guts to

do what we need to be doing. And that was just one small incident that

we had the guts. But if we'd a knew,, and if I'd a knewd those other

people was scarred as I was, I'd of never done it.

I: Never done it...right.

S: It was awful funny though.

I: If the time arises again would you still have those same apprehensions,

or will you be more confident in doing something like that when you feel

like it's needed.

S: Well, I was always a person that believed if I thought...if I believed

in something...I was confident that I was right. There was never no second




S: ...guesses in my mind whether I was right or not. And when I was out

there uh, demonstrating, I was sure I was doing right. You know, and

which I still think of it. But if it happens again...uh, I don't think

I'd have second thoughts about doing it. And I think that opened the,

that little...the little march that we had, the eight people that we had,

opened the way for uh, eight people. It brought a lot of the people in

involved in Old Main...it criticized it at that time...criticized in

what we did in March. But in a month later, they were completely different.

The uh...speaking of the Old Main incident...uh, you know, we met at

Old Foundry and formed a steering committee type thing to take care of

what we were doing because it was getting real big at that time.

I: Right.

S: And uh Janie Locklear...or Maynor Locklear was the executive chairman

of it. And well, she worked awful hard to put the thing together, and

most of it was her responsibility...the good and the bad she got credit

for. But uh she...she spent a lot of money and time in trying to restore

Old Main. And the building, we stopped the uh...we stopped them from

tOaring it down of course through their efforts. At that time I had to

get out of it because it was getting to deep in what I...what I was

working here. And it had to be done with people outside the agency. So

I had to kind of take a back seat then, and wish everybody well. But uh,

we were successful in stopping the destruction of the building. And it

so happened that the building caught on fire, and burned, and our


I: Filed arsonu....




S: Yeah. I don't know how...who did it, they haven't found it yet. But our

governor when he was running was Republican, and as you are probably

aware of we never had a Republican governor in North Carolina in the

past seventy years.

I: Right.

S: So he was one of the first that made a statement to save Old Main which

was a likeable thing for him to do, because he couldn't lose any votes

in Robeson County being a Republican, because he'd never had any...he

wouldn't get any to start with. So he said if he was elected he'd do

what he could to restore Old Main. And when the building caught on fire

and burned he uh...

I: Who is He?

S: The governor.

I: What's his namT
rS .-
S: Governor Holdhouser...Jim Holdhouser.

I: O.k.

S: He's young, energetic, and I felt for a long time that I thought he'd be
the best man. I got aquainted with him in the JygCees, four years ago.

And he was an outstanding a>G.-Cee, and I knew the man, so that's why I

supported him for a long time. Not because I was a Republican at that time,

but because I thought he was the best man.

I: Right.

S: And he said if he was elected, what he would do for the Old Main, and when

it burned that he...he come down right after the building burned, and on

the steps of the building, Whit Chaney, and some of the other leaders in



S: the movement, he said that he would do what he could to restore the

building. And he got a...was successful in getting the group a grant

for a a housand-4delars to restore the building. So that's in

the process now. What they do with it...I...I heard there was a

feasability study to uh, restore the building...see what possible ways to

do it, but like I said earlier...I couldn't stay involved with it as

much as I would like to because, you know how those things go.

I: Right. Uh, Governor Holdhouser uh, got a Federal uh, Grant from the

Coastal uh, Regional....

S: -------------- development.

I: ----- ------ development. And uh, this is a grant for a study

commission to be organized to study uh, what would be the most feasable

uses of the uh Old Main building. And uh, this grant was just funded

last week, and hopefully in a couple of weeks...uh, we will be uh, hav...

the governor will appoint the commission to start work on the study.


S: As well...let me say one other thing Janie...as well as I know the people

that's involved from here...the Indian people that's involved, Janie and

the rest...I'm quite sure they will ride a heard on the thing...that they

do make sure that the uh...feasability study goes the way that they want

it to go, and include what they want it to include, because if they have

the feasability study, it's so many times that they might say it's not

feasable to do. I'm quite sure the people that we have is going to try

to find out why it's not, and just not take the man's word if it goes

against their wishes.




I: Right. Uh...then what you're saying, you feel like the community very

definitely should have uh...this type of input into uh decisions made

about them?

S: Yes...yes, I think so. I think the community will become from the results

of that little march that we had...will come more involved with the

university. Not from a critical state, but from a helpful standpoint.

It serves on two purposes to bring to the uh...to the community their

involvement, how they have failed the college, and how the college has

failed them. It's been a two-way thing.

I: Right.

S: And I think there's more people being involved in the college in the

past year, more local people than ever has been. And of course the

college is involved in things that they have never been in. I think

it's going to work out all right. But we never can stop, we never can

be satisfied at what we get.

I: Right, that's true. Well, it's really been nice talking to you uh, Jeff

do you have anything else that you would like to add to your part in

Lumbee history?

S: No, I just hope...that I could be as successful in the future as I'd like

to be in business development, because I think the future of the Indian

people has to be in business development' q economic development. We can't

do very much unless we have the money. If we get the money we can do

something, but without the money, we can't do...very little. We can

have all the technical knowledge in the world, without a dollar, we

can't do anything.



I: What are your future goals then?

S: Well, we hope that we can set up an organization as I mentioned earlier,

for the Lumbee Indian business men to work from, that can do basically

the same things that I'm doing now.

I: Right.

S: But they are funding themselves because I'm tied. A lot of times I can't

speak like I'd want to, because I'm with a Federal Agency. But I'm

representing a man that's uh, as well as I am a farmer because I'm

employed by The Lumbee Regional Development Association that's funded

to work for Indian people. So I can't offend that school teacher in

any way J id I can't offend anyone, and it kind of keeps our hands tied.
But if we had an organization that was funded directly by the Indian
.-----a y
business gen they could do what was best for the Indian business msiP

I: Right.

S: They could do what was best economically for the Indian people, and that's

what we have to get, because these businesses...tthey know-more about the

business. They no more about how, the way it should...uh, the way it

should be run than anyone else. But the way we are here, a school teacher,

a housewife, can have as much effect.on me as the largest business man.

I: Right.

S: Because we can't offend her either. It's good and bad...it...it saves,

it runs, it checks...sort of a check and balance system that you can't

go overboard one way or the other. But we have to get more specialists

in what we are doing, and I hope in another year we do have the uh,

Indian business organiz...have an organization that would do basically




S: ...what I'm doing now.

I: Right. O.k. thankS/i lot Jeff.

S: Thank you.



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