Title: Interview with Curt Locklear (March 20, 1973)
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007049/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Curt Locklear (March 20, 1973)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: March 20, 1973
Spatial Coverage: Lumbee County (Fla.)
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00007049
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 59A

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Full Text


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and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of

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Barton interview w/
Curt Locklear


Typist: SLW

B: This is Lew Barton interviewing for the Doris Duke Foundation's American

Indian Oral History Program under the auspices of the University of

Florida. Today is March 20,1976 ... 1973, sorry. And I am in the

office of Mr. Curt Locklear, who runs a hardware store here in Pem-

broke, North Carolina. Mr. Locklear has kindly consented to give us an

interview and while he works and talks we're going to talk very casually

and find out a few things about him. What is your full name, Mr.


L: Curt Locklear.

B: And of course that's spelled C-u-r-t L-o-c-k-l-e-a-r.. I spell this out

so the girl who types it up will be able to spell it correctly. It's just

a matter of form. Uh, how old are you?

L: I'm 49.

B: And you are a Lumbee Indian?

L: I'm a Lumbee Indian.

B: And you're married?

L: Yes, sir.

B: Who is your wife before you married ...?

L: Katherine Locklear.

B: As I recall she is ... she has a twin sister?

L: That's correct.

B: How many children do you have?

L: We have five boys and four girls, a total of nine. Could I let you have


B: Well, that's exactly how many I have. So I now what you mean! I'll



ask you a hard one now. Most fathers are not able to answer when I

ask them the names and ages of their children.

L: There's a remote possibility that I could give you their names, and I

might be able to give you the range, from the youngest one to the oldest

one, but that's be about the size of it.

B: Alright, we'll settle for that.

L:, Whatcha want first, the names?

B: Yes, if you would.

L: Okay, we'll start at the top and work down.

B: OK.

L: We've got Janice, Kathy, Nancy. By the way the fisst three were girls, you

know. Then we have Curt, Jr., Milton, Martin, Stephen, uh,what 'bout

helping' out on this, Lew? Then we have Lindsay, and Anthony. Now that

should be nine!

B: And none of 'em were twins?!
L: None are twins, some are A close together, but not twins, my friend.

B: Uh, huh. Well, you're proprietor of the Pembroke Furniture ... I mean

Pembroke Hardware.

L: Just Pembroke Hardware. Um, huh.

B: And how long have you been in this business?

L: I've been in this business about 14 years.

B: You enjoy it?

L: I thoroughly enjoy it, matter of fact.

B: Mr. Locklear, where did you get your education?

L: At Pembroke ate University. At that time it was Pembroke State Col-

lege, I think JiS ) I t,

B: Uh, huh.

L: Yeah.



B: And uh ...

L: So far as college is concerned, 'course I went to Pembroke High School and

Pembroke SEe ___

B: Is your wife a teacher in public school?

L: She, she has taught, 'course she's not teaching' now, you know.

B: Uh, huh. We'd like to talk about many things, uh, in any field that

pertains to the Lumbee Indian community, and uh, the sky is the limit.

L: Well, you know, Lew, if I were to talk about anything particularly, I

would be talking' about our education, which, you know, I've done a little

work along with that.

B:, Well, that's certainly a pressing problem.

L: Been sorta pushing that thing for the past twelve or fifteen years in my

little way.

B: Uh, huh.

L: As you know.

B: Before we get into that and that's, I, I want you to talk about that.

But could you tell us something about your civic activities?

L: My personal civic activities?

B: Uh, huh.

L: Uh, very few, matter of fact. I'm a -SSMh VFW member.

B: Uh, huh.

L: I'm now a member of the Chamber of Commerce.

B: Uh, huh.

L: And 'course I'm chairman of our Booster Club out at Pembroke Senior

High School.

B: Right.

L: And of course attend _Baptist Church, far as C church going .

And that's about it. I'm not as civic-minded as some of the other fellas




B: Is that right? Uh, you were a magistrate when?

L: Well, the first two years of this district court when it first begun

that was what, five or six years ago, ...

B: Uh, huh.

L: For two years.

B: So uh, alot of people are concerned right about what's happened to Old

Main and this is an inevitable subject, it seems.

L: Alm-ost a hot potato 0C At( s)

B: Yeah. Yes, I ... many people are 4ken up over it, and of course a few

people are glad. I wonder ... I know you are ... have a ... feel a

strong, sentimental attachment to Old Main, having talked with you

befoEe. Do you have any comments about what happened yesterday?

L: Well, of course, as you know, I was in favor of savin' Old Main.

B: Right.

L: Which pretty much accounC for the whole thing. And I think it was an

unfortuate thing in many ways of having the Old Main burned. First of

all don't you think and I think that had it remained as it was that we

would have been able to ... fulfilled our ... the purpose of which we were

going for saving Old Main?

B: Right.

L: To make an Indian museum out of it. Had it been left alongand remained

as it was I think eventually we would worked out something' that the com-

munity would a been proud of, matter of fact,' the whole state would have

been proud of.

B: Yeah.

L:( Certainly you know, I hafeto see it burn, as you did.

B: Uh, huh.



L: It's, it's unfortunate that a thing like this would happen in the

community. It's not good publicity, it, uh, maybe almost indicate that

you got radical people over there and we never thought we were so radical.

B: Right.

L: In this area.
A It Lv ev,
B: We've been an easy-going ...

L: Easy-going type of people, too easy, matter of fact.

B: A newspaper article said it was destroyed beyond repair, but ...

L: I don't think so.

B: I talked to the U. S. Indian Claims Commissioner, Brantley Blue, yesterday,

and he told me, he said, actually whoever did this has done us a great

favor because we would have had to torn all that woodwork down anyway,

and now it's burned out.

L: SO they burned it out for. well, that's maybe a good way to look at

it and make you feel, you know, a little better about the whole thing.

B: Yeah, he's not in despair at all. He said that if it was at all renovatable

it would be renovated.

L: Well, you know, observin' the building' after the fire we really have all

of Old Main still remaining there, you know, so far as what we wanted

to see there, is the front is pretty much still intact. And what did come

off the front, 'course can be put back up to resemble and be just like

what was up there before.

B: Right.

L: So it's a, it's not, it's not past renovating and I don't court it out

that we won't still do what we had in mind doin! with the building unless

further damage is done from here on out.

B: Do you think what's happened to Old Main, it being burned by arsonists,



will perhaps bring more sympathy to our cause and maybe more support?

L: Well, certainly let me hope that it does bring more sympathy. I can't

very well see at this time where it would except for those people who

were very sympathetic with us in the beginning.

B: Yeah.

L: I think maybe they could be more sympathetic than they were before be-

cause I think those people were sympathetic then wanted to see us do
1. .'? ," '! T-1
this with the building which would want us to see, '.s'ee us do it

more so now that it's burned. But uh, the building's still in good shape,

so far as what we want to see what we want to remember, don't you


B: I think so. I understand Mr. Walter Pinchbeck, who was caretaker for about

twenty-eight years there, uh, has been inside it, he said it ... he said

the walls are not I' l .

L: Talkin' about the masonry part.

B: Right.

L: Right, uh, huh.

B: And uh, well, we're certainly hopeful, do you see any improvement ...

have you always, ... let me ask you this ... have you always lived in the

Lumbee Indian community?

L: All my life.

B: Do you see any improvements in Social things within the past ...?

L: Vast improvement, vast improvement. fe improvement rate that's been going'
Sf next
on say the last four or five years, Isay in the / ten or fifteen years,

if everything goes as well, and 'course with a little acceleration, we

should have a real good situation.

B: You think we've improved in the social realm tmDW about economically, edu-

cationally ...?



L: Well, I think we've improved some in all the areas, however, we haven't

in most of the areas we haven't come up to say normal, or standard, and

'course that's what we're still fighting' for.

B: Uh, huh.

L: To come up to be equal economically, socially, educationally with the

other people in the county. I mean we wouldn't have anything left

fight for if we were up to those points so far as uh, getting' out

here except working' within ourselves to make things better, you know.

B: Right.

L: Certainly we've improved, wouldn't you think so?

B: Yes, I certainly do. You and I have large families and uh, you know,

there're people who believe that families ought to be cut down, so you

and I might be in the, on the firin' line.

L: Yeah, we, we're sorta outcasts. Tell you that. Make ya feel ashamed of

yourself, doesn't it? I mean 'course we didn't know anything ... we

didn't know anything about this population explosion at the time we were

doin' all this, see.

B: Right.

L: Had, you know, had there been you know, had they been writing about it

and had it on ... in the news media, I think perhaps you and I uld have

been a little =re careful about it.

B: A little more conscious of the problem.

L: Yeah, right.

B: And do you think that families however generally among the Lumbee Indians

are on the decrease rather than the increase?

L: Definitely.

B: Do you think that ... what do you think the factors here are? The fact



that machinery's taking over farms, labor and so on?

L: What do you mean by the factor here?

B: In the reduction of the population.

L: Of the population?

B: Are we more conscious of ...

L: I think we're just ...

B: Birth control.

L: ... just more conscious of birth control. Uh, also you know, living con-

ditions didn't help a young couple much about wantin' to have a large


B: Right.

L: Mean things and so expensive and uh, man, they don't ... they don't care

to load up; they know how hard it makes it on 'em. How hard it's made

it on you and me, you know,

B: Uh, huh. Well, in the Lumbee Indian community we have the kind of family

structure we have patriarchal, rather than matriarchal, which is the

case in some places, which means that the father is the absolute head

of the family: this your observation, too?

L: Not so much today as it used to be, my friend. I think that's ...

B: Used to be pretty absolute, didn't it?

L: It used to be pretty absolute, but I think BS=E one of the other

breakdowns; that the father is not assuming head of the household like he

used to. And I think this is a pretty general thing all over.

B: You think this is for good or ...?

L: .\I think it's for bad. I, we, we know it's for bad. You've got to have...

n the beginning' the way it was set up, very, very early times the father

was head of the household. And if he's not head of the household there's

a breakdown, my friend.



B: Yeah, 'fraid so. Do you think like, movements like the women's liberation

movement, do you think it's touched the Lumbee community yet?

L: I don't know. I don't quite understand this woman's liberation movement

as to what good it can be and what good it can't be.

B: Uh, huh.

L: I, I think, I'm inclined to believe the woman's place so to speak is still

in the home--helpin' to rear the family, and bein' there with the kids, and

,... I just don't know about this liberation thing.

B: Uh, huh.

L: That would be ...

B: I go along with it to some extent ...

L: Right.

B: Equal pay for equal work but uh, like you I guess, I ... some extremes

I would not go along with, for instance, some parts the Woman's Lib

Movement advocate abortion, legal abortion I wonder do you go along

with that?

L: Uh, it's, it's pretty hard to condone murder and some describe this

as murder. And ... there's a thin line, it seem to me in reading' be-

tween when it's murder and when it is not murder.

B: Yeah.

L: Uh, if ... I think they just ought to be careful about other ways of

prevention' getting pregnant, rather than having to resort to abortion

later on. It's a, it's sort of a terrible sounding thing to me; I don't,

I don't think I oculd actually, if I were a doctor, I don't think I could

think I Qld perform the operation.

B: In other words, you think prevention is better than the cure?

L: Why, l arod thse ds ad

B: And people are going around these days and pushing things like this and



'course tomorrow they'll be, there'll be something else ...

L: Um, huh, always something, yes.

B: How about unrest in the Lumbee Indian community? Do you think we've

got a lot of unrest now?

L: Well, I don't know just how much, but I think we've got more unrest

than we actually should have; we shouldn't have the unrest that we've got

now, what we have got; everything should be goin' smoother; everything

should be together more.

B: Sort of a paradox that when, when a group gains certain advantages stead

of being less militant they become, they seem to become more militant.

Have.you observed this?
this is
L: Yeah, I think it's ... and I think pretty generally / true all over.

Whether it's Nixon, or whether it's me or whether it's a man with an

IQ of 70, or 100, or 156, when you get into these things, and you start

gainin' what you think's a little popularity and then directly, the whole

thing gg. And when it does, I think, depending' on who's direction'

ya, I think it can become very, very dangerous.

B: Uh, huh.

L: And a man gets to a point that he can't move backwards on this thing, it's

gotta go forward and grab for whatever it takes to keep in the limelight.

Even your big men,you know. And it can be dangerous, very dangerous.

B: Do you think ... speaking' of ... I like to mention leadership among our

people generally. Do you think that illiterate people are taking over

the leadership through militancy while the educated people who are re-

luctant to be militant are losing control and thus the control is going

over to 'QT illiterate people?

L: Well, I don't think, I don't think any illiterate people is going to take

over and control. However all indications right now indicate that they're



doin' a little something' in that regard,but I, I honestly believe it'll

all fizzle out.

B: In time.

L: Yeah. But ...

B: Do you think their following is very large?

L: No, I think it's very small.

B: They're claiming, for instance, one supposed leader of a group like this

claimed 42,000 Indians! "

L: Well, that's absurd. You know this Somebody's just, just using figures,

you know with no basis. However, Lew, as we mentioned, I'd like to say

this to you. We were sayin' that these groups will finally fizzle out.

Then too I think sometime that somebody will have to help 'em fizzle

out faster because if it takes too long to fizzle out, there might be alot

of trouble in between now and by the time they do and they'll have to

be, somebody will have to speed em up on that part of it, get it over

faster, you know, before it should cause real trouble.

B: Do you think that politicians are inclined to go along with the people

who J make the headlines, however they make them?

L: Well, I certainly hope not; I certainly hope not. However politicians

have come to be some pecluiar ones themselves nowadays Xu know, the office

is so important to 'em that they jump on whatever they can ride to ride


B: Right.

L: And that's beginning' to get ... a little out of order.

B: Politicians then are opportunists aren't they?

L: So to ... so to speak. Yeah.

B: I'm wondering if, you haven't had occasion to talk to any of the PSU

administration since this happened, have you?



L: No, I have not.

B: I imagine there will be some people who are glad and some people who are

sad about this.

L: You c1n bet your life there's some who are glad and some who are t sad.

Uh, O|_ this man said to me Sunday night "It ought to have been pushed

down with a bulldozer." s know, meaning' that we didn't get it with the

bulldozer so it, we, we've gotten the destruction of it now which is real

good, so he thought. 'Course I didn't argue that point 'cause I didn't

go along with the bulldozers so I didn't go along with the l

B: Why do you think some people take this attitude? I mean they don't

recognize the value of historical things?

L: Well, I think most of 'em are not doin' their own thinking Pu know,

they're speaking' out of somebody else's mouth; influenced by .. for one

reason another what somebody else feels or thinks.

B: Uh, huh.

L: They aren't doin' their own thinking .

B: The chairman of the PSU Board of Trustees has been quoted as saying to

whoever was in charge, "Letvt burn (9t it go do.nA(3t ought to have

been gone," or something ...

L: I wouldn't be too surprised at that.

B: Do you think sometimes when people make a mistake they go on with that

mistake, rather than rectifying it and ...?

L: You got, you got some people who will die with a mistake, that they're so

stubborn they just won't give in. It's not the popular thing to do, you

know fortunately people should never be that way / it you know it is.

B: You're saying that's a human failing?

L: Right.



B: You're here every day and many people come in and some poeple chat

so you have ocntact with a good many people uh, does the sentiment seem

to be about evenly divided or would you say it's stronger on one side

than the other?

L: Well, I you know, alot of chatting goes on here, alot of people come

in and they talk about these things, and I think that it, you know, the

type of people who come in here, just like the chairman, say your board

... you don't see that fella, you know, but for the type of people who

come in here, it's most of 'em it's favorably, you know.

B: iost of 'em ...favor the salvation of Old Main?

L: It was ... it was ...yeah, it was, I got the feeling' it was favorably

during' the savin' of Old Main, and still they are in favor of trying' to

salvage it, now and still renovate it. But now this other person I knew

you know, a person who's not in favor of it, don't care to discuss it

too much with me because you know I was in the paper on Save Old Main


B: You made a stand ...

L: You want to be in harmony; yeah. People don't usually like to talk with

a man unless he's in harmony with him, you know. I don't s'pose I

enjoy it too well. But I, I won't, you know, run away from it.

B: Right. I guess you and I are pretty outspoken on things like that.

L: Well, we might as well be, you knowpeople's gonna know how you stand

anyway. C

B: You can't ride the fence. Always can't..

L: Goin' down the middle, you'll, you'll bump one sie, the other, you know.

B: Right.

L: And then it hurts.

B: Uh, if you had ... if there was something you'd like to change about the



Indian community what would it be? Have you ever thought about that?

L: Uh, well, thought of so many changes that I wouldn't hardly know how to

be specific, but one of the things that I always dreamt about bein'

changed was ... did you know, just a few years ago seem like all of us,

our kids were hung up on the highest thing we could attain was to be-

come a schoolteacher.

B: Right.

L: That was the elevation, and I always wanted to see 'em break out of that

elevation into the professions. You know, seem like we were stuck right

there. That was te tops.

B: Right.

L: But then here, you 'notice the past four or five years they've broken from

that, and they're going for the professions in various schools and ... that's

the one thing that I used to dream about happening. Because you know,

you got ot ... you gotta ...kids come through school, finish high school,

they gotta have that feeling' you know, that the sky is the limit.

B: Right.

L: Now they got the feeling' that the sky is the limit. If a boy wants to

be a doctor or a lawyer or in the field of agriculture or pharmacist, or

you know, they're ready to go now. But a few years ago it was hard to get

through that crust there. ... elevation. That was one of the great things

I wanted to see happen, Lew, and it hakappened. Now the greatest

thing that I think has happened has happened the past four or five years.

Uh, fifteen years ago when we were running' around the county with these

little meetings, running to Raleigh and down to the County Board of Edu-

cation the one thing that you could notice and the one thing

that I was hopeful to see one day was for us to gain pride.

B: Right.



L: And all of a sudden, I don't know where it came from, all of a sudden

thing breaks aloose and we got pride.

B: Uh, huh.

L: We really got pride now. And I think if you got pride there's nothing

else can stop you.

B: Well, I've been told some flattering things about ... I'm not the only

one by any means, this is one of the things I've always believed in, pride,

and I try to generate it, whenever and however I could, and I'm sure

a ot of that's been done in schools and in pulpits and other places I'm

sure, when you kindleO a spark it has a tendency to spread and multiply

and we have had a drastic change in this direction. Some of our people

talk about having an inferiority complex, but do you think we're getting

away from this?

L: When ... when we broke with this thing of pride we broke with the inferi-

ority complex. However, I think it's pretty hard to drain all of that

inferiority complex out of a person's system, when you were born with

it, when you were reared with it, it's pretty hard to drain every drop oft

it out, you know.

B: Uh, huh.

L: But we've got enough out now to stand our own.

B: We've had this sort of pushed down our throats, I guess, that we're an

inferior people, and ...

L: Why, certainly, you .... did you ever thought for one minute that the white

man wasn't better than you? If you did, when did you start thinking' that?

B: Well, I guess I'm an exception to the rule in that ...

L: I mean bein',- bein' completely honest with yourself, when did you start

thinking' you was as good as a white man?

B: Well, ...



L: Have you always thought you was as good as a white man?

B: No, not really. I guess you're right.

L: I haven't.

B: I can remember going' to Red Springs to the theater when they had us sit

up ... in the balcony ...

L: Balcony.

B: ... and the blacks were on the other side and they had them partitioned

off and I didn't think much about it myself because you did get cheaper

rates upstairs and I was very poor; I could sit up there and if I felt

devilish enough I could drop a few peanut shells down on the ... I didn't

do that really. I imaginee some of that was done. As far as our people are

in appearance uh, I remember that they used to have a little boy who

stood at the door, an Indian boy, and he would, he would let them know,

he knew the Indians from the white people, ...

L: Um, huh.

B: ... and so he, you know, he stood there and he made this distinction and

sometimes when a boy wanted to show off a little bit and sit downstairs

with his girlfriend he might tip this little boy and he'd let him go.
L: Yeah, I never-.,Aexperience that. All I experienced with the theater was

when I went in, I saw where those superior people were sitting, and I

knew that wasn't for me, Lew, so I headed on upstairs, you know, where I

was s'posed to go.

B: You didn't think about it a second time, did you? Didn't bother you at


L: Sure it bothered me a little. But I knew I wasn't supposed to be in there

because that waC white folks.

B: Uh, huh. The laws of the land were geared in that direction, were they




L: Absolutely.

B: Seating arrangements on buses were a matter of law. Segregation in

schools a matter of law and so forth. But the laws have been stricken

down now and we're getting, do you think we're getting to be comfortable

with the situation as it is now?

L: Oh, definitely. I don't know how much heart of change we've had in

this county, you know what I mean. A person changes *-s heart about tS

situation. But uh, well, we've come kong way. We've come a long way

that we shouldn't a had to come in the first place, of course, you

know, but ...

B: We ... after being told that we were inferior then suddenly we came up

with some knowledge of our history. A white lady, a white missionary

Miss Mary Livermore, for.whom ... the Mary H. Livermore Library at Pem-

broke State University is name Pdishe always urged us to delve into

our history, and she always said, "You've got a glorious history, you

just need to get into it."

L: ...Get into it.

B: I with a few others did delve into it. I remember that we formed ...

well, you and I, weren't-youand together in the same class in 1947?

Or were you back that far?

L: Yeah, there's a possibility, you know, I uh, I started back when I came

out of the Army '46.

B: Right.

h: There's a possibility, but I don't recall.

B: I remember that under her we formed a local historical association.

I started travelling in that directions and others did too. But down

through the years they sort of fell away, you know. Everybody fell

away except me, and I kept going, and uh, ...



L: Um, huh.

B: I was actually engaged in research over a period of eighteen years.

L: Um, huh.

B: And I remember calling her just beofre she died and I said, "Miss Mary,

I'm just about ready to go to press." And she said, "You are?" But it

takes that sort of thing, and I think she realized that we needed this

pride for our own feelings, because we felt very insecure, or inferior

perhaps, because we were so isolated, were we not?

L: Yeah, that's true. We were very much isolated.

B: I've heard an expression "prejudice for the Lumbee Indian ends at the

C unty line." Do you go along with that? 0l 07&

L: Well, this is ... that's a good expression, I think. It's ... comes

in two cents of bein' true, 'cause you know when we left here and went

in the Army we just simply didn't think about this stuff anymore. We

were equal with everyone else.

B: Right.
L: But then just as soon as I come back to Robfson County and sit down on the

chair at Mike's after nine days of bein' discharged because I'd forgotten

a little uf Ltht situation and was refused to have my haircut; I started

thinking' about it again then. 'Course this was only nine days after

discharge, you know.

B: Right. But they let you know you were back home pretty T

L: Nine days after. Yes sir.

B: Well, I'm certainly glad all that's changed, thanks to our black brothers

and white brothers, too, who had a part in the civil rights movements.

L: 'Scuse me, go ahead. io

B: I would like to ask you a little something else about PSU. It's been



said that there was a lack of rapport between the Indian community and

PSU. Do you find this to be true?

L: Yeah, I think that has been pretty evident. However, I think that's

improving' a little right now.

B: You do?

L: Oh, yeah, you know, they got a good program goin' out there in the

gym, you know, at the swimming' pool, for the local Indian kids.

B: Uh, huh.

L: And you know last year they had this, these several doctors in here investi-

gatin' this type of thing. And of course I was the one that was inter-

viewed at that time on the thing.., /-. /I 4V c .'-ra- Y:C.
SAC oZ /Xfhcte ,
B: ,,.Righte r 4 4 V4 vA

L: And uh, 'course you got ... keep on the fight, particular, in the PE de-


B: Uh, huh.

L: It .... just openly reports this feelin'--that they know that it's goin' on

but it's improving' a little now, I think.

B: Well, that's good.

L: It's showing' a little improvement.

B: That's certainly good. Do you think there's something we might do on both

sides to improve rapport?

L: Uh, well, certainly we can do something on our side by recognizing that

it's not what it should be and just ...you know, keep, stickin' 'em,

elbowin' 'em about the situation til they come through with some things.

And on their it's just a ... a simple fact of just cooperation' amd making'

sure that it's a ... the school is for the community and good cooperation

in the community. That'd be very simple for them to do. They wouldn't

have any problem. It's all in attitude anyway, you know.



B: I want to ask you a personal quest--, sort of a personal question. And

don't answer if you don't want to, of course. But do you get, do you

have customers by way of PSU professors and PSU students in proportion

to what you think you ordinarily might expect?

L: The student I'd say is fair. Now the faculty, that is very, very poor,

matter of fact, it's so poor that I, I just don't even think of it goin'

on. It's very, very poor. I don't know how you account for that, or

how you improve that.

B: Uh, huh.

L: I think one of the ... the main reasons that it's poor is that they don't

live in Pembroke because of us not havin' housing' facilities. They're

livin' over in Lumbrton, Red Springs, and O places like that.

B: Right.

L: And 'course if they live in Lumbkrton, I think they're gonna be doin' more

spenindg in Lumbarton. I believe Lew that that might be mostly responsible

for that.

B: Yeah.

L: ... thinking.

B: Most of the professors and students commute, don't they?

L: Well, you 've got ... out of 2000, don't you have something' like eight or

nine hundred that commutes? 5-it's pretty high.

B: Well, I noticed that a motel has gone up in town, and maybe we'll have

more of this, and do you think this would be a good direction to travel?

L: Well, I think the motel is very definitely an asset to the town in this

regard. For instance, we're having Jack Pardee on May the 4th as our

speaker at the athletic banquet.

B: Um, huh.

L: And Jack Pardee'll most likely be stayin' right here in town.



B: Right.

L: Whereas he'd been havin' to stay in ... well, when we'd have a speaker

he'd have to stay in Lumb/rton, you knowq6b this is something.

B: That's something we can do.

L: Yeah.

B: Do you think this will be increasing; uh, the more we're able to ac-

comodate people. Of course PSU is able to accommodate many, many students

with those new dorms, and so on. I od't know just waht the figures are.

But it's ... as far as living in town here we don't have a good many

university people living in town that I know of.

L: Well, that's ... that's true and of course, there could be two or three

reasons for it and I think one of the reasons is not having the availability

of houses for 'em to live in and of course a ot of 'em don't want to stay

here because simply they'd have to send their children inferior

schools. Whereas they think over in Lumb rton, you know, that the

schools are superior to ours. It's a .... here again, may be a normal

reaction? ,0 -, / oq v C cog

B: Uh,1uh. It's not ... it couldn't be construed as prejudice but just

a matter of convenience, right?

L: I think I'd be inclined to think that that's most "of it.

B: Uh, huh.

B: Uh, I understand ... are you connected with the housing authority?

L: None at all. No.

B: I don't know how it's coming along and I understand that they've ...I've

been to one meeting and it was coming along nicely at that time, and it's

been several months ago. There's a businessman's organization which has been

formed recently. Do you know about this?

L: Yeah, I'm a member of the businessman's organization.



B: Could you tell us something about this? It's emphasis and so forth.

L: Well, it's an organization; 'course you know it's ... as you say, it's just

been formed; it's brand new, and we're trying' to break out of the rut

with it and uh, see if we can be organized in some way where we can bene-

fit the Indians primarily, is what it's designed for.

B: Um, huh.

L: And right now we have goin' in the businessman's organization, an attempt,

you might heard or might not, set up a small loaning business and ... if

we're to do this as a result of the businessman's organization I think it

would have been worthwhile to have it. Uh, we have various speakers from

different areas on different subjects that relates to businessman and

I think the organization's gonna be a good organization. Like I say if we

can get out of the rut, you know and get things a'rollin' where you can

make it interesting for everybody and show that it's something that'll be

good for the community, good for the county, good for everybody, I think

we're come along, I hope so.

B: Uh, huh. We've seen Jaycee organizations among the In:dians come into

flower within the last few years. Do you think they're very influential?

L: I think the Jaycee organization been one( of the most influential or-

ganizations we've had in the area.

B: Um, huh.

L: I've been real impressed with it.

B: You don't know how many chapters we have, do you?

L: No, but we must have, what, four or five, at least?

B: Yes, at least.

L: We got White Hill, Pembroke, uh, Magnolia, ...

B: How 'bout Fairmont?

L: Well. I think we've got at least four, amybe more.



B: I want to ask you one question about the sticky problem of double&

voting. Some sort of compromise had been reached or aimed at recently,

an increase in the number of members on the Rob son County Board.

Do you think this is satisfactory or do you think we've improved any or

are we just sort of justifying perpetuating the same situation?

L: I think we're perpetuating the same situation. I think if somebody

wants to say that's something, he can go ahead and say it's something, but

I think it's a very, very small something. And I don't think it's enough

to settle for.

B: Uh, huh.

L: And 'course, matter of fact, I don't think it will be settled for.

B: Do ou think this is a violation of the principle "one man, one vote?"

L: Well, definitely, I've been in favor of this double voting bein' dis-

continued for years. Because it's obvious that it's, it's set up to keep

tha school situation like they want it--- like the white people want it.

And which they've been ... it's been very easy for 'em to do. Like

my running' for the Board of Education was running' for the experience, not

to win, but for the experience.

B: In other words ...
S alone
L: And I learned an awful lot. Lumbrton / beat me, you know.

B: Uh, huh. You recognized when you ran that you had no chance of winning?

L: Oh, definitely, but it was a good experience. It ... it made some, some

you know, gave some little openings for me as a result of bein' in it, but

you couldn't have, you couldn't win. Like I say Lumb rton alone knocked

me out and that's not and that's not talking' about the county, that's

talking' about a city unit.

B: Right. In other words, just the .... just the process of running for public

office is sort of an educational thing2 //i/f



L: Certainly is. You really get the feeling' over the county, you know,

how people really feel and think, and how the trend is; it was a great

experience for me. I wouldn't do it again just for the experience be-

cause it's an expensive experience also.

B: Right. Were you able to reach people in all three groups, ... in a satis-

factory way?

L: I got votes ... No, not in a satisfactory way. I got a great reception;

I got one of the greatest receptions down in the Sterlin township ...

B: Uh, huh.

L: ... that you could imagine. But I think I also got 32 votes out of the

Sterling township.

B: They welcomexyou with open arms, ...

L: Oh, man!

B: ... they just didn't vote for you!

L: Bought me Cokes, ... I was treated royally.

B: There was one politician uh, Mr. Brooks who ran for a state post and who

was leaking at a place one night, and he, you know, he's ...Mr. /JfIht

Brooks, is a very ...

L: um. il '

B: ... eloquent man.

L: Yes.

B: And when he finished his speech, everybody praised his speech and J said

that was certainly a great speech, and one politician said, but he_, he

added, "But you know, speeches aren't what's going to win this election."

L: S _o_ -Ve votes. Yeah. That's true. I, I got received well all over

the county, Lew. Matter of fact, it would almost misled you, to have

thought that you were really in.

B: Then this indicates to me that there is there is a friendliness among



our people of the county, all the people of the county; a certain

frieiliness and cordiality.

L: Yeah, and it also indicates a hypocrisy; indicates .more of that than

anything else..

B: Yes, I'm afraid so.A But as long as people are able to talk with each

other, the door is not entirely shut, do you go along I with that?

L: I go along with that. That's true.

B: How do you think, are you ... I shouldn't ask you really whether you're

Republican or Democrat.

L: I'm a Democrat and voted mostly Republican.

B: How do you think the fact of ... a Retublican governor for the first time

in this century is going over with all the peopOle of the county?

L: He's gonna go over splendid with the people in the county, with the Indian

people in the county, particularly. 1\

B: Well, he certainly ...- Z.7 U,

L: He shows interest you know.

B: Yeah.

L: That's what we haven't had.

B: This is a historical thing really. His attitude and everything.

L: Right.

B: In the past has it been your experience that it was almost impo---

Side 2---

B: This is Side 2, of the interview with Mr. Curt Locklear. I started asking

you a question there when the tape ran out. Uh, I was asking you if it

had been your experience or in your knowledge that heretofore, meaning be-

fore Governor it had been almost impossible for the

Lumbee Indians to reach the Governor's mansion or the Governor's office



except through a few handpicked men or something like this.

L: Well, this is ... this has been true in the past but just to give you a

illustration. When we become interested in this small financing, loaning

business we wanted to have an appointment with Mr. Harri who is

commissioner of banks, and we wanted the appointment to come through

the governor's office, you know, sorta make a little better impression.

B: Right.

L: And I sat right here in this office and went straight into the gover-

nor's office without even thinking' about checking' with anybody in Lum -

b rton.

B: Uh, huh.

L: And it worked.

B: And we never been able to get to Raleigh, state capital, except through

Lumb rton, the county seat before.

L: That would be the only way before that you, you would; you wouldn't dare

call or try to get in the governor's office without havin' ... goin'

through the system, the power structure.

B: Do you think we're very fortunate in that respect--not only in the state

now but also we're able to reach, actually we reach the White House.

L: We are more than fortunate in a very short time of bein' able to go

from where we are here to Raleigh, or from where we are here to Washing-

ton. Something' that a few years ago you wouldn't ever thought of.

B: Right.

L: You wouldn't attempt it for anything. Because it just didn't work that way.

So things H=aV, I'd say, Lew, is sorta breaking' loose for us. I say

I lc__- now the opportune time has come for alot of things, and that

is why we're attempting' to set up this small loan office. We think

the time is right for that. And whether or not we succeed in setting' it


up is something to be seen and nobody knows right now.

B: Right. Do you do you think he Lumbee Bank, which is the first

Indian-owned bank in America I've heard, do you think this is a plus

thing for our people?

L: Definitely it's a plus thing. Here again it makes for pride, the.thing

that we need so much of.

B: How 'bout competition with other businesses? This, this is always good

too isn't it?

L: Well, competition's a way of life. You have to accept it and certainly it's

good; if you aren't able to compete you're just about lost.

B: Right.

L: Nothing wrong with that.

B: Well, I've taken up alot of your time, and you indicated to me when we

began that you didn't have lot of time. But you've graciously extended

that time longer really than I expected. Do you have any further com-

ments about anything pertaining to Lumbee Indian life that you'd like to


L: Nothin' more than I'm real happy to say that I'm a Lumbee Indian, and

glad to see things getting' in order for us and we'll be even a prouder

people as time goes on than we are today.

B: Right. And you think the key to our progress then is largely pride in


L: Pride in ourselves, yes. That'll take care of you.

B: Thank you very much, Mr. Locklear. I want to thank you for the Doris

Duke Foundation and I'm sure your interview will make a valuable con-

tribution to the work, the research that we're attempting to do through

the University of Florida. Thank you very much.

L: Thank you)Lew.

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