Title: Interview with Lindburg Locklear (March 13, 1973)
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007040/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Lindburg Locklear (March 13, 1973)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: March 13, 1973
Spatial Coverage: Lumbee County (Fla.)
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00007040
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 50

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Full Text


This Oral History is copyrighted by the Interviewee
and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of

Copyright, 2005, University of Florida.
All rights, reserved.

This oral history may be used for research,
instruction, and private study under the provisions
of Fair Use. Fair Use is a provision of United States
Copyright Law (United States Code, Title 17, section
107) which allows limited use of copyrighted
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Fair use limts the amount of material that may be

For all other permissions and requests, contact the
the University of Florida

Lindburg Locklear
Interviewer: Marilyn Taylor
Typist: Sally A. White

T: This is March the 13, 1973; I'm Marilyn Taylor recording for/Doris Duke

Foundation's American Indian Oral History Program under the auspices of

the University of Florida's Department of History. Dr. Samuel L. Proctor

is the director. I'm in my home, here at 16 College Terrace, in Pembroke,

North Carolina. And with me is Mr. Locklear who has kindly consented to

an interview, and we're grateful that he has. Mr. Locklear, would you tell

us your full name and address, please?

L: Uh, Lindburg Locklear, Post Office Box, 253, Pembroke.

T: Now, are you married?

L: I've been married, yes, I've been married for-15 years. And I have two kids,

a boy 13 and a girl 8. My wife, she teaches-at le r__ _Elementary,

a &assistant.

T: What's her maiden name? Who was she before she married?

L; Powellw/. p i/ \ Ire 4

T: Then your mother and father, uh, what were their names, or are they living,

Locklear. She lives in a
L: -Mother's living, her name is Locklear. She lives in

-fa-4 i es about 15 miles south of here.

T: Uh, you're close to education, then, having,d&W your wifefi in the school

system, and, I O LGttY children, uh, how do you deaei what are your

ideas on the educational system, now, from the standpoint of, uh, the

llCri/ -ce] aaey, and most specifically, the Lumbee Indians, here in

Pembroke, and the surrounding areas?
L: ell the system that we have here now is better than what we
L: Well,-=-_1av- the system that we have here, now, is better than what we



had. Up until the, uh, 1954 agreement to, uh, integrate schools, the minority

people, in the county, which were the Indian and the Blacks, they suffered

greatly from lack of education, because all the better things that had come

into the county, went to the majority schools, which were white. And the

Indians, Lumbees and the Blacks had to take what was left. And, therefore,

what was left was not much. And, uh, that left the people with very little

formal education, or should we say) 6 V / e ( 'v( (f .

T: And when did this began to change towards, would you say, progress?

L: Uh, about the year of, uh, 1958, I think, or nigh on there, progress

started taking, there, but we didn't get much of a change in it i1l about
C ))
1964, or '65, there, when they, .uh, instigated this freedom of choice where

alot of Indians and Blacks, ae*flCatM'go to the white schools. However,

no whites would go to, what we would consider, and al ndian or Black
school, but the Indian and the Blacks were integrated very heavily in the

white schools. Therefore, our educational standard started picking up,

at this time.

T: Uh, how many, there were several school systems, were there not?

L: There, there's 6 school systems in Robeson County, which, uh-, we have

several towns that have their own system, and then we have the county

system. And this is, uh, always been one of the things that was not,

uh, w ki-wed consider the right thing to have 'cause any time you have

that many school systems in one county, it's gonna cost aot to run

'em. JT'sr- what I would consider would cost much less I 01A kJ \T

under one system. But the reason they're having it now is they control

their homes and they control the county system.

T: When you say, they, you're referring to...


Page 3. dib

L: The whites.

T: The whites.

L: They always have controlled it, and the rate that it's going

now they're trying to keep it...

T: Then you see that the Indian is not being represented at all

in the way of education?

L: No have some Indian people in some positions in the county.
But personal all of these people we have in key positions are

white Indi a appointed. K

T: Would you describe those white Indians. I think we know here
4 A A
in the area, but/some of us that perhaps listening will not under-

stand the term.
( o
L: Well, now, when we, when we talk about a white Indian we're talk-

ing about someone that is appointed to a position in Robeson County

as a say-so man. We might consider him as a person that would take

the position and do as he's told or do nothing at all, which we have

in the county now.

T: I think we're having some interruption now from outside" esy-

T*S doing some advertising .- stable, which is a,

what would you say, a gathering place here for people 1 __

L: Yes, they're gathering up down there to try to get a motorcade to

get started to go to Raleigh to protest this double vote. We said be-

fore, we were talking about this, these in school systems in Robeson

County(Q six of them, all of these city systems are able to vote


Page 4. dib

on a county school district. However about sixty-seven percent of

the children in the county schools are Indian, and as long as

it's set up now where the city system can vote on a county issue,
our county schools will be controlled by the white also. And

what they're protesting now is the fact that the double vote would

be abolished, then the Indian would have more say-so in the county

system. And the rate hat we're going now it's hard to elect an

" kCI to the because the whites control the schools.

T: How do you see that this can be solved? I know we have a

great amount of Tuscaroras in each community and in each ___ I .

I know that there is different opinions on it and what is your

opinion on the double voting this year and how it should be resolved?

L: Well, there's no doubt about i>hat the double vote issue should

be resolved ever how they wanted to do it legally. In my view there's
A Cr
not but one way to do itA 4s-t be to stop the city voting from

voting on a county issue. Let the county school system vote their

own way and the city system vote their way. Li C ///- j7a Q) 'l ^

ikc v -iC( orthe whole county under one school system, which

they don't want to do either and they would lose control again.

T: And again we say, they, you're referring to the whites.

L: To the whites.

T: What is the main objection, you and I know, for those people that

perhaps don't understand, D S I what is the main

objection of the Indians having the whites control the schools?


Page 5. dib

L: Well, I have a brother that works .iarthe County Board of Edu-

jI cation as a maintenance man. He's been there some twenty-three

years now. This is the way I can get all the low-down on what's

"happening. And now-a-days our schools, such ai -- __Ichool,

'-school, some of our hot-line schools, they have virtually

no whites. They're considered predominantly Indian schools. Now

they're about half black and half Indian and maybe ten percent of

them white. Well, these schools still get very little of what they're

due. And the people that are in a position to help schools that run

into half of what they aed, they won't do it. The only thing they're

after is three o'clockpay day. They do exactly what they're told,

go home, and say no more. Because they get the check every morning

and that's all they're after, their pay check. It's not a fair

way to do it and if they would abolish the double vote for the In-

dians to have more control of the campuses we could put better people

in these key positions that would look out for the welfare of our

children, not just the welfare of the state.

T: Now what did you say again? What was the percentage of the Indian

population in this county?

L: In the county school system as A sixty-seven percent

T: And as you see it now the Indians have no say-so whatsoever as

to how the schools are run?

: None at all at this date?
T: None at all at this date?


Page 6. dib

T: II" I 1fM, c( l1' I '

L: And at this date we have no control over how the schools ar run, be-

cause the people that run our schools are white. They run -- C

__ ___ they want to, and there's going to be trouble until it's stopped.

Now we have these Tuscarora groups and the East Carolina Indian Organiza-

tion which is the ECIO, and they're marching and demonstrating and doing

damage to the _. ( / i/'.-/./( t's an embarrassing


T: Damaging in what way .-, i TFphysically "_

L: Physically, physical damage to people's property and really to the

persons themselves, the Indian people, or some of the things that they're


T: It's degrading you're saying because of...

L: Degrading, degrading their people. Thank you. And it won't work.

But the people that are doing this they are very much a needy people. You

an take fifty or a hundred of them out here and put them together and

rI U y0u couldn't hardly get a hi school e cation out of them much less a

o lege degree. And of this Tuscarora group over here this Mr. ____ _

SLop lear, he has no education at all. It's, you know he consider himself

chief. You can't have anything like this. You're going to have the blind

leading the blind. If you have some organized, a well-organized situation

or a group varied, than you can go somewhere much faster, much better when

you're going to have this. Anytime that you have people like that and

they're all uneducated you're going to have trouble, you're going to have


Page 7. dib

everything for a peaceful demonstration and quality out of the whole

thing. Just like that.

T: Mr. Locklear, you mention the Tuscarora it's been said, I guess it

and theand it's wrong and it's perhaps propaganda, but is it true

that the Tuscaroras pulled out from the Lumbees?

L: Oh, yes.

T: ] j '(J( 71^ CA.- LL 'tc the Tuscarora Indians...

L: Well, they...

T: ...in this area?

L: They come into bein the last year or so. There was a group that

went on their own. They said they were not going to be Lumbees. They

said they were going to be East Carolina Indians. This was some two

years ago. But then they got in there and got somebody that wanted

"to be-something lse and they split up, and they said they were going

to be Tuscaroras Well, neither one of them has ever accomplished
very much i, .t .i y I

T: Well, what did they base their desire to be Tuscarora? What

was the basis of it?

"L: We1l, they said they were not Lumbees. And they can't be Tusca-

rorasbecause the Tuscarora Indian nation was in upstate New York. The

only thing that they possibly could be would be an East Carolina Indian

where the Indians can, Indian4 t all w= North Carolina

and the eastern part of the United States. So we're all East Carolina

or Eastern Indians, if you want to put it that way, but I would consider

our tribe to be Lumbee Indians. That's what we asked for and that's what


Page 8. dib

we got and I think the name I US V | to us, because...

T: We became what year now, t Lumbee?

L: I believe it was in 1954 by an act of the state legislature in

Raleigh, North Carolina passed because

of the name that we had before was not proper or something or other,

and I can't remember all of it. We were, at that time we were named

Croatan Indians, and some of our people didn't think it was very

proper so.tey-changed it over to Lumbee, which is a very good name

since we've been here on the Lumbee River L-t r // 'V *,

,'7 /\ ,' .\ -]} 1 ,. So thi(Tuscaror-b and and the East Carolina
/ /
Indian Organization, they're not the first ones that got started now.

We had some that started about fifteen years agp and they fell.

T: And what they, what were their names_

L: They, they never did get that far.

T: They never did get the name. They just pulled out.

L: They may have for a while -I '!i thej time they couldn't get anywhere.

This one guy he was a treasurer of the outfit and he got /fg(/ tt-'

Il 'I Wound up in jail and so forth with the money. But either way

it's not a thing that is going to prosper. They won't get the people,

not the way that they're going. The only thing that would help the people
'on the whole, and this is what we're going to have, is for the people

to come hold it together, say we are all going to do this dS J ' U3- .

And if we do that then we can accomplish the American Indian mission

that we wanted to before. But our people are not based that way, They are

have took their advice from the people that are incapable of giving advice,

so long '-iL7 it" )L

Page 9. dib

T: What do you think of the Indians, or the Lumbee people, generally?

Who do they look to c(.Q ,,'/ when it comes to educational policy or poli-

tical issues and voting? What are the main issues, is what I'm speaking

about ?

L: Now, when you come up and talk about that you can go to a lot of

places, and they don't want you to tell them which way to go. They don't

want this. When you see a person, especially an Indian, if he's ///;

in there he's the very man that yo can't tell anything to. You can't

tell that man that he's going north hen he's going south and vice versa,

because it won't work without, if the right man come by and if he wants

to reason ( !/)\ '" or he wants to c

"f / ( I follow him. But they're not going to

follow a good sound policy. Now we have had this many times before, and

I don't know. They seem to me not to work. Now all the time that the

Black man, ever since he started out on his journey to make progress, it

has always come from the ope'l With us...

T: From] where now?

L: The the ministers. The ministers started their push for equality.

And you know, today the Black man, the minister is ff B- 1/ / -.

people. Now here in Robeson County I could name out to you a half a.dozen

so that everyone of them was a minister leading their people. These people

AL'.o -\f Ak, ( 'i- , \ I-itnd they're going places now. Now

with our people it's not quite as settled...

T: You mean the Black-, the Blackrfollow their ministers.

L: The Black follow, the Black follow their ministers. Whatever he says

they take his l4 about everywhere it can go. With our

people its not going to be that way, because we have about ninety percent


Page 10. dib

of our ministers are uneducated, and they take their people up to church

Sunday morning and they just get up there and preacha\while and get their

it isn't worth the people if you want to put it that way.
And they leave them hanging. They doesn't teach them anything. But

they got them on their side to the extent that the only thing that they

know about is the fact that he's a good preacher. Well, actually the

man is not a good preacher. He just got, he just got them all worked that

Sunday morning just like they'll do in a rock 'and roll band Friday night.

This is what it amounts to. And their leadership ability is none. There-

fore he can-L P0

T: I '-;,you see the religious fiber in the Mormon people as the

Indians? Is this normal...

L: Not the religious fiber, no. The leadership in the religion. Now

SA t'.J ) a man can get up and preach, but he doesn't have any

leadership about it after he leaves the pulpit.

T: What would you say is predominantly the, I guess perhaps the denomi-

nation, or Protestant or, of the Lumbee people (affiliating with that ______
4'fY d / t
L: Well, they're all, I think have F" K rCt e_. all Protestants.

As a matter of fact we just have about three denomination 'Baptists, Metho-

dists, and___\___ ___. 7^ *- 9- C .c / )/-.

But the preachers -_, they're really t-=_atg. They're not

qualified to lead their people, They-re--us-t-able-ta take a stand, T-he -b'c-

people could do much talking. But they've led the people in this direction
o A- 4 C_ 5 ,,/iT
so long now till it would be hard to change. They would get up-afdT=9ran

earund and say, "Remember next Saturday. I want everyone of our people down


Page 11. dib

here at the polls to vote." They might want to keep the man out. But

he's no place up there in a position of leadership in order to lead his

people to the polls. Therefore they're suffering. If they would go

ahead and organize themselves and say that we're going to do this for

our people, things would have been accomplished by now. But as the

way we're going now, the blind leading the blind, in other words we're

r A/ Ash Swamp.

T: Tell us about Asho Poliswamps It's actually a place, is it not?

L: Ash# PolgSwamp is where I was raised at.

T: Is that all?

L: Yes, itis back in...

T: Tell us something about y ur background and where you were born.

L: I was raised down jT' whicY is about ten miles from

here ^\\.q and I was raised out on a farm. And

my mother's husband died in 1928, which was a bad time. The worst thing

that happened after that I was born. But at any rate / 'tA

/IO.CC-- about ten of us in the family. We lived on nothing and a

little bit else, a little bit less than.-r a long time my schooling

was i0 )" school ) *

T: I take it you were farthest?

L: Farthest / (t You know at that time, up until the year

of 19, about 1965 if you were an Indian or Black in Robeson County

and you didn't work on a farm or in a saw mill you was on welfare.

And they didn't have you on welfare, but you worked...

T: They didn't have Indians on welfare.

L: You ain't on welfare if you were able to work. And on the farm


Page 12. dib

you got two dollars a day. That doesn't sound too good ) r i

T: No, that's...

L: But two dollars a day, that's what you would get. But anyway

that's why I was raised on a farm. I never did get to go to school

unless it rained. Finally when I was in fifth grade I dropped out

and came to work.

T: Well, you seem, you seem to be well-read. What was the situation

A -'[ V", h1.- \ have you done

studying of your own?

L: Well, I' 9 ,g always liked to read even when I was in

school. I looked about me and I, I had to get out of school. But

even, you know, this time, you know, we didn'tlus a good school.

This was not too many years ago. I lived, well, just about a mile

from school, and I was some of the first ones to get to school every

morning, so I had to light the fire. We had a pot-bellied stove.

And all during this time now the white people had steam heat in

their schools. We were using pot-bellied stoves with coal

T: How did this affect you as a youth? If you can recall back.

L: It didn't affect me none at all, because to me at that time the

white man was superior to me.

T: And you really felt that way.

L: Yes, definitely.

T: And you felt inferior. Well, that's changed, has it not? As

an Indian how do you feel today?


Page 13. dih

L: Well, now...

T: The situation..

L: My people...

T: Honestly, I mean..

L: People might think sometimes that I really resent whites. I do not

resent no white man. None of my people come first. The only thing

that I have learned now is that no man is going to push me nowhere.

In other words new when I meet up with a white man as far as I'm

concerned he's just another man, a Black man or whatever. It doesn't

affect me anymore because most of my dealings now are with the white

man. I deal now with some-of the people that I used to have to call

'mister', now, because...

T: Well, time. does change things ..

L: Very much have changed JF P CC-- .

T: I understand you're active in the church. Has this been a source

of help to you? I'm sure you've felt frustrations. You feel like

you've been /64l lC1A0Y and perhaps /' 1/' -r the whites

:/^ l;. (/ to-'. perhaps getting better jobs. This kind of


L: Well, it's helped me in quite a few areas. However,

I've been, since I'm not _',lf" _, Ied out in a few

places where I wanted to be-. But when I was coming up I remember

when a man \0 t. % r '. raised on some farm- Y/. x .L

'44 4Al.//,nd he used to come out to the house and he would say,
"Enid," which is my mother, "Keep them boys home from school today


Page 14. dib

and let's w _cropping" or "let's get this tobacco raised"

or do this thing or do that. All here this time his boys was at N.C.

State, Duke University, and I was at home working for them to go to

school. And now today this bothers me, and I let him know one thing...

T: He bothers you in what way? f\

L: No, not now. It doesn't bother me not that much now. But it bothered

me for the fact that, that he would even want me to stay home. Well,

I don't want his children to stay home now. I don't. I don't want

no child staying home from school, white, Black, Indian or whatever,

because there's nothing in the world that will replace an education.

I don't care where-you go.Nothing replaces an education. If a man wants

to be a farmer with a college degree he can be a better farmer than he

would without having it. But...

T: In other words you don't think it hurts anyone at all.

L: No, that doesn't hurt nobody to have a college degree. And I'll see

them all floating in hell before my children will stay home and work

for his to go to school.

T: Well, how does your children, their attitudes that they have about

school and grades as they report to you? Of course they come home and

they have a Black -e white e/ the three main races I guess in

this area.

L: Now where I live that doesn't get a...we have Black people living

behind/. I have white people in the same neighborhood. And since my

children has been going to school I have never heard one of them come

home and say this Black boy or this white boy or this whatever, I

don't want my child to look at people as Black or white, I want him to

look at his boy, his friends as boys or girls or whatever it is, and I


Page 15. dib

wouldn't have him coming home and saying that Black boy or that

white boy, and I have never heard him say that to me. Where I live

at as I said the place is integrated, and my yard happens to be the

biggest yard around, so I got a basketball court and that's where

they come to play basketball. This is the whites, the Black, and

anybody that wants to come. And they all come in the house to drink

water and they all come in the house to read comic books, they all

come in the house to do anything they want to, and theyrC- 47 I

T: (f t .' 'l What grade did your wife

go through? What ?

L: Well now) at this time she's got the third grade. She

has a degree in elementary education and library science. She loves

children. She loves children. She likes to go to work, and that we

had a county pool, and I'm bragging on my wife now. Qf course she

does have some weak points and I don't mind exposing them either.

But when it comes to school...

T: Only because we all do.

L: When it comes to school all of her boys is C7[ / A and )

we had assistant like my wife did, we would have an-seeis a-e e

T: In the integration of the schools, how did she find that at first?

I know it was an adjustment for all the teachers as well as the pupils.

L: Well, the adjustments...

T: sair\ CC ( / # a&v she expressed maybe some of

the views...


Page 16. dib

L: The adjustment to the school, the only difference in that was

the fact that the Black, the white and the Indian, the children

react different in classrooms. This is the big thing that she had

to get adjusted to, because the previous school that they were at

evidently, you know, they would have a lax discipline or some

of them V I C' C /. "L .situation that
shel had toi- lt X
she had to got-hr h i* school integrated as far as

the integrated part of the school. She agreed to (' it, but

there's no other way to run a school except...because as long as you

run a segregated system a child is going to come up with the idea

either I am superior or I am inferior to the man next to me. This

is not going to happen, )W -iA ^

T: Well, ->\ i fo fio.Lreot the Tuscaroras They wanted

their schools back as such. How do they term it to be complete

Indianess .

L: Well, you can't have any more...

T: w ss reading the paper andi almost, you know, what ct/C- I'I ^^

what we read, this is what they want,their schools back they say.

L: Yes, they want that. They want that, except for they didn't use

what they had. Now Mr. Ij 7 Locklear, you know, if he were to

go up here and find a list. tvi'l.. .... -i- f -___r__ '__ __mm

They didn't go to school and they didn't see that their children went

to school. Even though our schools were inferior at the time they

could Aa '-"' to keep their children in school. No man didn't

make them stay home from school. They weren't made in a sense to stay

Page 50A

Page 17, dib

home. And ourschools were not good, but they could have went. And now

we have I'd say a third of the Indian people in Robeson County are con-

sidered illiterate. And I would say that half the people in Robeson County,

A- forty-five years older and T, are illiterates. Half the people. This

is because they didn't go to school and they did not __7_ the white

man's laws because they didn't fight for what was rightfully theirs at

that time. And now thepeople are beginning to fight for what is theirs

and things will be better. .clr

T: Well, that's a wonderful promise to make) -hat's something we all want

to C'c(.' I know you're interested in not only /education but

other areas in the community. You do work with the Jaycee's.

L: Yes.
CL. r/ccf- .
T: What is some of the, some of the work, wftee you're doing

L: Well, now I belong to the fri' I 'Q Chapter,.

hibea-is ten Indian Jaycee capt$anei*in the county or .the areaW ere they re

not allowed G/?.,t captain outside of-Penibroke, about fifteen

miles up here in /71 LO (UCW working at previously before this

T: And by the way -welare -?-" < o geSt. I don't think we have that

established yet.

L: Oh, I'm a sales supervisor over.there --- \ver in

Lumberton, and we're fortunate that it is owned by Indians, operated

by Indians, and this is where I do a lot of my dealings with the white

people. They come to me now to see if they can work. I used to have

r '4


Page 18. dib

to t@t -Ct q 6 t" AI _

V,_ i; v-rkfilig'.; I may be

wrong. I don't want to feel that way toward anybody. But, see,

some of these people that I talk to now I know them, but they don't
A t
know me. But I knew them a long time ago, It's turned around. His

ground has just changed a little bit. /c t2 r But

on the, but on the Jaycees ) 1 get back over there, there's

ten Indian chapters. And these ten Indian chapters they get together,

they have what is considered a council. This council consists of

two men from each chapter to represent, and they get together and

-'P e r t e 1 things and do things which is beneficial to the

people, Indian people of Robeson County. And each chapter has so

many votes when it comes to the national convention or the state con-

vention or a business convention and what have you. And we're fortu-

nate. We have three or four men in these positions now, which is

pretty good offices. And this is all because we have ten chapters.

Therefore we can carry in from seventy-five to a hundred votes.

And in the state of North Carolina that's a big majority. Now this

is another place where you can say that when you get together you can

do a lot of things.

T: Repeat that statement. That's L( Icf 4

S' i You were saying in essencAwen you unite...

L: Yes, when you unite such as these boys does do, this Jaycee council of

the ten chapters,the thing you have with twenty-five men you carry two

votes, and then if you get up to so many more men you carry two votes.


Page 19. dib

And I mean this is to a state convention. And then tel-/. -.

$' / 'c y youu got a hundred men you can carry five votes. And

I ____ ten chapters you can carry, only have had as

much as a hundred and twenty-five votes. And when we're due up there

every one of these chapters votes in the same direction. Therefore

we have two men now in key positions in the state governmeJ Both
Jaycees. And we have one that's running for assistant president to

the state Jaycees, and I'm quite sure he'll get it because we carry

this many votes, and the Indians, they always C(rrr I ,.

T: I think most of us understand the work of the Jaycees. But per-

haps some students who would be listening to ee tape, would you give

us just a little bit of rundown of what the Jaycees is all about, what

they try to do here, endeavors or their objectives or you might say

their goals

L: Well, the goals of ,,'ow-Jaycee clubs are quite different. They

might be in different areas. And here Indians work, deal primarily

with the well-being of the Indian people. However...

T: Now, is this teaching leadership?

L: It's teaching leadership and we have had some very good leaders

come out of the Indian chapters. Now some people contrary to what

they said about Indians not being good people in command, this has

been proven outright false because we have had some of the, some of

the best men representing the district from the Jaycees has come out

of the Indian organizations. And they're going higher up because of

what we have been doing in the Jaycees. We have one now lthe-de+eges


Page 20. dib

.picked. He's up in Washington and he was one of the originators of

the Pembroke Jaycees. And he was very active in there for several

years, and he held key positions around in that area in the Jaycee

chapters. And finally he worked his way up, and it was not a, it

was an appointed position but he earned this position. It was not

put on him because who he was or whatever. But he earned this posi-

tion for the Indian people. But now the Bird Road rkrif'Pad

Jaycees and the, all of the Indian chapters doentae that we're

just setting out to, to better men for the community. And this

leadership that the Jaycees produce we can come up with and produce.

T: Well, it's on a state and national level. And what do they do, it's

on, you know, a local...I have it wrong, I think perhaps heard it

wrong, they help needy families?

L: Well, they'll do C thing.

T: I -e- certain drives or if they have C:., ...

L: They-help out in March of Dimes. They help out in the Easter

Seals. They-help out persons that his house was burned. We'll help

our people Lv j We'll do anything[for the community?] Any-

thing that the community needs they'll help. Anytime someone is in

need they can contact any Jaycee and they'll help someone.

T: Approximately, 9AL l1 ?y?, sort of catch you off guard, but

just estimate about what approximately, this chapter here, the Pem-

broke chapter, what would you say!the population of it?

L: About sixty-fiwe in the Pembroke chapter.


Page 21. dib

T: They meet how?2i 'fCi /

L: Once a week, Wednesday night.

T: I see. Wednesday night. Do you feel that they're doing all that

they could be doing in Pembroke to encourage the, say, perhapsihuman

relations with the,,, /' C) i r way; .ftfehwe have Pembroke

State University being the kind of institution with the cap and gown

so to speak in relationships with the town. Do you find that this, is

it ideal or really w" ,or what is your opinion on this?

L: Now the Jaycees are a different asset to any community they're

in where they're working. Now when we're saying that they're doing

all that they can do you're going to find that...

T: Yes.

L: ...it might be a little hazy in some areas. But they, they work

in cooperation with Pembroke State University, many of -"1

Ail Vr carried on at the University. Because some of the men


T: Do they want to or some of the people do?

L: i CL( 'oft' I association at Pembroke is ,, has

done very actively > supported by the Pembroke Jaycees. Afl

the association at Pembroke State University, because during

this, this "M ^'- you have president of the Pembroke Jaycees, W.D ,

Strickland, the radical we were talking about before, was also presi-

dent of the Pembroke State University r t cl r\ I And he

was work, was helping out efil / l :V helping

p *


Page 22. dib

out at the University. They- ad been a member 7 lM

T: You mentioned that you were a car salesman. I think that you were

in other businesses and other endeavors of work for a livelihood. Would

you care to comment on some of these and how you felt about these?

L: Well, I've been fortunate.

T: Ct CfE r^ .

A--C: 1: I've had a few jobs and I haven't done anything much that I didn't

like to do. lL w C [:' \ 'And I said I

was raised on a farm, and farming life is good if you're in a position

to take part I However now when I was raised up during

the early part of my life, and we were farming, we were bird farming.

In case you don't know what bird farming ] S '\ *

_____________ took C'-t-^ fP j i
you took
if you got a hundred dollars bt Cg /ltrw you didn't get but thirty.

If you went to a dealer to get it in corn you would get a three

; ,-- two, you'd get one. In other words we got a third of what we

made. Well, we graduated. We finally got us a half of it. When I left

the farm, though, I went to spend a little time in the army for about

two years. I was a little bit successful at that, too.

T: Tell us about that. This is during the ( t C

But 1--- .. -.( ?% A

L: Very nice. Very nice.

T: And what years were you in the service?


Page 23. dib

L: I went, I went in the service in 1954. I stayed in there two

years and in this two years I ranked up to sargent and this is kind

of hard to do in two years in the army t. -t time I did this
A -A
I thought I cCk just what the man told me, I don't ;;?

/lP*, - But anyway I got kind of promotioned. And I came out

of the army and...

T: Did you feel, ever feel that the fact that you were an Indian

was against you or for you either way being in the army?

L: It worked both ways. Some of them was proud to be around me because

I was an Indian, and some of them I had to bust a foot because I was

an Indian. And it worked both ways. But the majority of them was,

they would come up and tell me that they was part Indian, ten percent

Indian or this and that.

T: It's kind oflard to measure what -'' Indian.

L: Yes, but I didn't have to worry about that. I wasn't concerned

about whether a man was Indian or white or Black. It didn't bother

me. The only thing that I wanted was him to be a man. That's what

I wanted, a pretty good group of men when I it/4 f 6 / r L..

I'll Ce't- .J But anyway when I got out of that I came

back home and got married after I was six months out of the service.

Andie stayed down on the farm for a year. My wife was still in college

working it out. Finally we moved up here to Pembroke late in 1957.

And then in '58 March, I went up to Durham, North Carolina, and BgmUn-
I ), /.ric. .
SI *'i" } graduated from up thexea-end we came

back home and went in the uL-t-X.A business. I stayed in there

about ten years. I sold insurance for two years. I enjoyed that, too.


Page 24. dib

Enjoyed thej1 'work. And I worked for a funeral home and of whichI was

a part owner, and I also enjoyed that. And now...

T: Could you elaborate on that? On what part did you enjoy? This

is something that's a fascinating subject 4T 0 1'" .

L: See I always liked people.

T: Right. In other words there is a, what I'm trying to say, a con-

nection between life and death. But to some people to say that you

enjoy working in a funeral home seems morbid. To some people. But

you're calling it, or your opinion is what I want P .*

L: What I wanted, when I was saying about the work with people when

it comes to the funeral home, you can help a person more in a funeral

home at the time when he needs it ad you can help ra i 1h cr'!! and

then that makes you feel good just to know that you can help someone.

T: Elaborate on this. I think I know what you mean.

L: When someone comes in there and they say that their mother passed

away, see then you know what to do and you know what it takes to help

these people out. But you'll have -4 t2hing,

because you're in a position and you know, you've been in the business,

and you're __expert on how to help people out when they're

in need, this type of need. In other words C J 7S L -f e.l ICC

and with experience that it will teach you what's generally the, what's

right and what r Ti)MC

T: What was the result, I mean do you feel that it helped 't2

iC ?

L: i. *I.4 I always figured that I could help some-

body else '-t4 others walking around here __ -_c- _-

Page 25. dib

T: Did it ever bother you or di d-you ever have qualms or think about
it when you're A C' feel a little dizzy. Meanwhile
make the thing look good as people say. He looks like he's just sleeping
and this sort of thing?
L: Well, I've had it and I've worked at it for a half a day, and you would come
out of there and they still didn't look like they was sleeping. They
looked like they was dead as anything. And ye u-we "" Cl' .' -i4
t f and then you were satisfied.
T: _C-' .
L: Some of the times you wouldn't be satisfied

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