Interview with Nade Dial, October 25, 1972

Material Information

Interview with Nade Dial, October 25, 1972
Dial, Nade ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:


Subjects / Keywords:
Florida History ( local )
Lumbee Oral History Collection ( local )
Spatial Coverage:
Lumbee County (Fla.)


This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

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Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
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Subject: Made Dial -i- &L ,4O. fl

Interviewer: Lew Barton li'jL iL "*
*c Hy "I
Date: October 25, 1972

Typist: Josephine Ann Suslowicz


B: This is October 25, 1972. I am Lew Barton interviewing for the Doris Duke

American Indian Oral History Program. This afternoon we are in the home of

Mr. Made--what is your last name, sir?

D: Made Samson. Di

B: Samson?

D: That's the name of my step-brother. I'm a Dial.

B: You're a Dial.

D: My mother's a Dial, and -T 4( ,

B: And your first name is spelled M-A-D-E?

D: M-A-D-E, Made.

B: D-I-A-L, and, uh, how old are you sir?

D: Well, S g mmz-r -I'm 98.

B: Oh, that's great.

D: Second day of August.

B: Of this year.

D: Yeah.

B: That's certainly great. Let me check my tape just for a second to make sure

we're recording and I'll want to ask you some questions. It's such a pleasure

to meet you,sir. So, you're 98 years old.

D: 98

B: That's great. ub is your memory still good?

D: As good as it ever was.

LUM 34A 2

B: I heard it was. I heard you could remember all those things that happened..

D: All my life through. Where I went, and everything,

B: Do you--do you remember the Shake?

D: Eh?

B: What we call the Shake.

D: Yeah.

B: S-H-A-K-E in this area. This is an--an earthquake which came in 1888.

D: That's right.

B: And, uh. .

D: 1888.

B: How old were you at that time?

D: Twelve year old.

B: 12? Twelve years old. Well, you remember the Shake then, don't you?

D: Oh, Lord yes. You could hear the people hollerpall over the country, and the

Praying and tt)-running. You didn't know what it was. Pat come in--my

step-brother. My mother says Ia k what in the world is the matter?

B: Um-hum (affirmative)

D: He say YAe e say I don't know. Judgement, I reckon. He didn't

B: And, of course, this was an earthquake, and this area has seen no other earth-

quake that I know of. We never heard of an earthquake before, but one actually

occurred here in 1888 and we called it the Shake, and people kind of date things

according to the time of the Shake, don't they?

D: Yeah.

B: They say, how old were you at the time of the Shake, or say,-ty-uh, how far was

this from the date of the--the time of the Shake came. I've heard some of our

older people talk like this, you know.

LUM 34A 3

D; I remember my life and my doings from when I was seven years old w.-- -

B: From the time you were seven years old.

D: Seven years old.

B: Uh-huh. Uh, could you tell us--I wish I could just get you started talking and,

and tell us about some of those things, because we younger people, when we come

along we're going to miss some of these things if you don't tell us about them,

you know. We aught to appreciate what our forefathers did, and .

D: Yeah.

B: And you can help us here by helping us--by recalling some of the things that

you remember. It would be--it would be most interesting and very valuable, too.

D: I don't remember everything, now. I rambled for seven years, I U)^Q-t through


D: For seven years.

D: That's right, that's right. Seven. Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi,

and all that there.

B: Were you working? Going to different places and working?

D: Different places working. l bA6rtAlabama--I stayed there a year.

B: Would you mind telling us what your father's and your mother's name were?

D: Rebecca Lowry.

B: Rebecca Lowry.

D: And my grandfather was named Willis Dial.

B: Willis Dial. D-I-A-L, uh-huh.

D: And his geean" i- daddy was named -Sol Dial.

B: Sol, Dial. S-O-L

D: Yeah.

B: D-I-A-L.

D: Jimmy Dial's daddy.

LUM 34A 4

B; Yes sir.

D: '1 L f t wr 4(4 to call Big Jim Dial.

B: Um-hum.

D: His daddy's namejSol.

B: Um-hum. Well, you remember then when the Lumbee Indians had no schools or any-

thing like this at all.

D: No schools at all.

B: This was, uh, very pitiful wasn't it?

D: Yeah. Well, White men come over here, this country was nothing but Indians.

B: Um-hum.

D: And they raised buffalos.

B: Um-hum.

D: Just herds of buffalos. They used the hide for fur coat and they used the meat

and eat it.

B: You raised--you sayactually raised buffalos?

D: Yeah, yeah, the buffalo was WCG e+a-tha

B: Um-hum.

D: And, and bery-.

B: Yes sir.

D: There's a swamp here they call fBe-y Swamp.

B: Uh-huh. Is this why that call that STivy Swamp, because there were bera in

D: There were be.tes- in there.

B: Wild berais.

D: Yeah. You could get those old Hog berxrzis.

B: And that was in your lifetime, too, wasn't it?

D: Yeah.

LUM 34A 5

B: Um-hum. Uh, do you remember when--when everybody used oxes and ox carts. .

D: Oh, yeah.

B: Instead of mules and wagons and horses and buggies?

D: We--we had one. We had a horse for a buggy horse.

B: Um-hum.

D: I often used oxen to farm with.

B: Um-hum. Did you plow with oxen?

D: Plowed? Yes. Plowed many a times.

B: Um-hum.

D: Go to hook them up.

B: Were they very reliable animals, I mean work animals?

D: Yeah, they were good workers and we had two big ones, and you go to hook 'em up,

hook his foot first C4f I you didn't mind, he'I4 kick you.

B: He would kick you.

D: Yeah, and then you had to put his blocks on.

B: Did they have a mean disposition?

D: Oh yeah. You had to watch them. They'td kick you. Had one buck that--a little

one-'had a horn.

B: Um-hum. For the sake of our listeners and readers who don't know,,.,an ox is a

work animal which has been castrated.

D: Yeah.

B: I understand. Am I correct?

D: Why, then you couldn't do nothing with a bull.

B: Now, if you didn't do that, you couldn't--he would be too wild, wouldn't he?

D: Well, my granddaddy, Willis cut a many a one.

B: Um-hum.

D: From a bull turn into oxe k

B; Um-hum.

LUM 34A 6

D: And hogs.

B: And they simply called thecprocess cutting him.

D: Yeah.

B: C-U-T-T-I-N-G cutting him.

D: Yeah, that's it.

B: And, uh. .

D: I was--I was at Maxton and there come a storm up through there, and it like to

cause a Ao, LaU-_ there, and, uh, come up a storm that night. Yeah, I could

hear it just a running and hollering with the people all over the settlement

where they jo\t C the Shake was over.

B: Um-hum.

D: The earth shook so t4=-the dishes rattled in the house.

B: Uh-huh. And people were frightened, weren't they?

D: Oh, frightened, yes. I was twelve year old at the timeit- h[,

B: Um-hum.

D: There weren't but two of us, that is, my brother Walter.

B: Do you remember when Indian women used to smoke pipes?

D: Oh, yeah. I got a pipe here now. A little clay pipe.

B: Yes sir.

D: Lime. .

B: They were--they made their own pipe out of clay.

D: Out of clay.

B: That's very interesting.

D: And they raised their own tobacco.

B: And they cured their own tobacco, and they used their own tobacco to smoke their


D: They used it for smoking and chewing.

LUM 34A 7

B: Of course in those days they didn't. i t

D: They planted 'em in little patches, you know, and wa'b fish.

B: They would bury fish at he -at.the hill of tobacco and that would be the


D: That would be the fertilizer.

B: Uh-huh. That's certainly interesting, and so when the fish decayed, then it

actually did become fertilizer, didn't it?

D: Oh, yes.

B: Uh-huh.

D: Good fertilizer. You.get this old 16kV fertilized and-pat fish in it

-aAd-put 5- in it and you couldn't hardly squirt it out when you spit it.

B: Is this because the Lumbee River, or Lumber River had so many fish that you could--

they were easily acquired? You could catch plenty of fish in those days?

D: Yeah.

B: And you could get plenty of wild animals, huh?

D: Yeah, and deers, rabats, any kind of wild animals you wanted.

B: Squirrels were plentiful?

D: Of course squirrels--were plenty of 'em.

B: Uh-huh.

D: Lots of times we caught squirrels. Ls-a squirrels. 2- 4f ,

B: )Possums?

D: )Possums, jij(,V &t a lot of people eat possums, but I wouldn't eat--never eat


B: You didn't like them?

D: No you wouldn't, they was a gnL buzzard.

B: They was?

D: Yeah, he' d eat anything.

LUM 34A 8

B: He would eat dead things.

D: Dead things. Rotten things. He'Id come up around the hog pen and eat all the

hog manure he wanted.

B: How 'bout foxes, you uased-t eat them anyway, did*R you?

D: No.

B: You'd just get their hides?

D: No. Coons. We had plenty of Icoons. We got some skins here now.

B: Well, how about what we call a cooter g

D: I don't eat them.

B: Is that like a--is that like a turtle? A swamp turtle?

D: Yes, that's--that's like cooter and a turtle is all the same thing.

B: Is that right?

D: Yeah. A

B: And these- -*a are Jwords, aren't they?

D: Huh?

B: These are 4aiSel n n Indian words, aren't they? Cooter, I mean like, um, uh,

possum, and racoon, all those--all those names of animals from that.

D: TheWl M)C- :, S -. .":t.

B: They is?

D: Yeah- You never heard--.-_ ? In the nose.

B: I've heard that they can hang down from a tree by their tail. Is this actually

true, or just superstition?

D: Yeah, he can hang by his tail, and he has a pocket down here.

B: Um-hum.
0D: And l-'-1 I, W r
D: And 1h|t-l m mlMate'I i he build that in his pocket, and /r s O

for GQc= obolls.

B: Um-hum.

LUM 34A 9

D: And I've seen many a possums about that long.

B: And you're showing me about an inch--six inches long?

D: Eh?

B: Is that about six inches long?

D: Yeah, about that long sitting up on their mammy's back with their-her tail

curled ,like that, and their tail around hers. That's where she carries them.

B: She carries them piggy-back.

D: (Laughs) Piggy-back when she carries them.

B: Well, that's interesting. In other words, when they're real small, they carry

'em in their pouch.

D: Yeah.

B: And when they get a little larger they carry them piggy-back?

D: Piggy-back. On his back u Ac- ()

B: Uh, when you were coming along did you do courting with a buggy and wagon?

Would you take a--a me--a horse and buggy to go see your girlfriend?

D: Oh, yeah. A y bicycle.

B: Uh-huh.

D: Well, I had a4oti five and !gx ? '4. pretty, too.

B: Uh-huh. People bicycles around here, sometimes they say it's wheel. Did you

ever heard 'em called that.

D: That's what you call them AL wheels.

B: Um-hum.

D: It's another name for bicycle.

B: Yeah, the real--the proper name is a bicycle, that's it, sir.

D: My kidneys bother me a lot.

B: Yes sir.

D: I have to go wet.

LUM 34A 10

B: Well, you certainly are a very--I'll just iXgSC .. just for the time being.

They say you're the oldest man in the country around here.

D: DL1 VV a 9 A .- wAO.k 0v1o, 1-",

B: Well, the Lord's blessed you to see many moons, hasn't e?

D: Well, I was raised in a Christian home,' /. m W B. My grandmother's

home was a Christian home, and my mother's home.

B: Um-hum.

D: We had family prayer every morning, and family prayer every morning.
ti Ar bor"
B: Uh, huh. Do you remember the days when you had, uh, Brush Varb, meetings

instead of churches?

D: Yeah.

B: And, uh, this is a kind of, uh--you cut the tops off of the trees, is this right?

And put brush over it and make shade.

D: Yeah, and like--like the tall .Q ,C'. and have

the tent meeting there fo r weeks? We brought this church up throughA4-. VLct-J

S you'd have heard--0 ir
Hope Church is the oldest church that was in this country.

B: New Hope?

D: New Hope. My mother was a member there seventy-five years.

B: Oh that's--that is something, isn't it.

D: Well, she was ______ cianh, but she just--you see, the Methodist sprinkle.

B: Um-hum.

D: And this J1 "they called it christening.

B: Um-hum.

D: That was with water. They called it Holy Water.

B: Um-hum.

D: My mother didn't like that.

B: And the Baptist--they believe in dipping you under, right?

D: Under the water.

LUM 34A 11

B: __ __ _C_____ _ _ l_ _

D: It was John the Baptist that started it. The Lord baptized him.

B: Um-hum. Well, it's, uh, can you remember any of the old preachers? For example,

do you remember Reverend Moore?

D: Quincy Moore?

B: Yes sir.-

D: Duke Moore?

B: R. W. Moore, yes sir. L. W. Moore.

D: AN o Ac doing?

B: He was the first Indian teacher among our people, I ford--att..

D: Yep. He taught, uh, high school, but then he got to teach a high school.

B: Yes sir.

D: And he preached too. His wife was named Toodie.

B: Toodie.

D: Toodie Oxendine and she was a highi\ . .O

B: Um-hum.

D: Yep. He come from Blatden County.

B: From Blagden County.

D: Yep.

B: That's the county that Poins Robeson. One of the adjoining counties, yes sir.

I had to elaborate that for the sake of our listeners who might not know where

it's located. Um, when they started the school, it--it was started at New

Hope. Is that right?

D: New Hope.

B: Uh, I heard a had about. .

D: That's the first school where--where the now smallest school building there, and

then they build the bigger one and called it a college.

B: Um-hum.

D: Two, uh, one story high--two stories.

LUM 34A 12

B: Well that's where Pembroke State University really began.

D: Yep.

B: Out in New Hope.

D: Out in New Hope.

B: Is that right?

D: That's right.

B: And this is about four miles from where it's located now, is that correct?

D: Yeah. There's church there now.

B: Uh-huh, but the old--the original school building is not there any more is it?

D: No. They build a new one there.

B: Uh-huh. Well, now, here near Lumberton they have a school,-and some people

refer to it as the--as the Old Biddie school. B-I-D-D-I-E.

D: Well, I built the Biddie schoolhouse.

B: You did?

D: Yeah.

B: And they're preserving that for historical reasons, because it's a typical

school in that day, or this is what--how they're using it. And you built

that school? -I& (,C

D: Yep, that schoolhouse. -____ I got $400 to build that

schoolhouse and they furnished the material.

B: Uh-huh.

D: C4 //L TTTTg them down to the floor.

B: How long do you think our people have been here? Or have you any idea. .

D: All of their life. They owned this whole country through here.

B: Uh-huh.

D: All their life the Indians owned it.

B: Do you think they've been here since 1650 or. ..

D: Oh yeah. Yes sir. They is White peopleC c {c

B: Um-hum.

LUM 34A 13

D: They come in here and they ask the Indians if he have heaven.

B: Uh-huh.

D: He finds out, yes.

B: Um-huh.

D: Then he'll say, is you got hell? No. We ain't got that.

B: Uh-huh.

D: By then you re- t_ and I'll C you there, and they been giving him

hell ever since.

B: (Laughs) I never heard that before. That's good. That's a good joke.

D: Give me your land and I'll give you hell, and they didn't know what it was.

B: And, uh. .

D: Now you know there's a big treaty that-belongs to these Indians here?

B: Is that right?

D: Sm' dollars.

B: Uh-huh.

D: They never signed this treaty and they never have paid it off.

B: Yeah, well, many of the treaties were broken. I understand there are more than

f100 made to all the different tribes of Indians in the United States, and many

of them--nearly all, if not all, have been broken at one time or another.

D: Yeah, you're right.

B: Well, do you remember the late, um, Governor McClain? A. W. McClain--Angus

Wilton McClain?

D: Um-hum.

B: The first--he was the only governor ever produced by this county.

D: He came from this c=!. COU\ 1 -ere.

B: Was he White or Indian?

D: Eh?

B: Was he White?

LUM 34A 14

D: He was White.

B: Uh-huh, and this is the 'present. .

D: He-doeents-gotzthe-I -----par-of- tndi-an.

B: Is that right?

D: Yeah.

B: He was a friend o-f the Indians.

D: Oh Lord, yes. Big Stick we called him.

B: Um-hum, Big Stick.

D: Big Stick (laughs)

B: Well, that's good. That certainly sounds like h4k cb.l'

D: Yeah.

B: A friend, you know.

D: That was definitely McClain.c i

B: A powerful man.

D: He's the first governor in e you see.

B: Yes sir. The first governor to come from this county, and the only one, really.

D: Yeah.

B: Uh, how about Mr. Hamilton 4M-lUT, the man who established education for the

Indians. Can you remember him?

D: Yeah. (laughs) Bet--ytr the Indians didn't. He didn't know what the tribe

was and what they were called.

B: Um-hum.

D: And so he named them--give them any name they wanted. They wanted the name

.j Cfo -r4 1S but they wasn't 9f C a they was Indians. There was

an island of 6m oRF .4 Co 6+,^'ir Island.

B: Yes sir.

D: And John Smith is come over 'cause the Mayflower would've left. He left England

to come to this country.

C-18Cg^^TRbis ^i"^ s^i^^zS.'

LUM 34A 15

B: Uh-huh.

D: And he--thee. met the Mayflower.

B: Um-hum.

D: And he give 'em the name of the Indians.

B: Ur-hum.

D: Cherokee Indian.

B: We've got Cherokee Indians in this group too, haven't we?

D: Ur-hum.

B: Right here in Robeson County some of the Cherokee's settled.

D: Yep.

B: Most of the live in the western part of the state, don't they?

D: Yeah.

B: Do you think we arigt t have Tuscarora blood?

D: Eh?

B: Do we--do you think we e14-stUa have Tuscar--a blood?

D: Oh, yeah. We got some 4 /4 Is

B: The Tuscarora Indians were originally from North Carolina, weren't they?

D: They were called--they were called Tuscar ras.

B: Uh-huh. That's right.

D: And they carved on a tree when they left to let Johnny Smith know where they

were, and they carved on a tree.

B: Could that have been--could that have been John ie ?
D: Yeah.

B: Uh-huh.

D: They carved on the tree--there's a tree--they were going to___ Island.

That's-wiry thatC 4l AA -

B: Yes sir. And do you think this is because they. ..

B: Yes sir. And you think--do you believe that this--this is all uh this really
B: Yes sir. And you think--do you believe that this--this is all, uh, this really

LUM 34A 16

happened. Uh, have you always heard that this happened? I--you know,

what I'm trying to ask you is this. I've always heard that the tradition

that we are descended from John -I,/ -e 4 lost colony is a very ancient

tradition--a very old one.

D: It is.

B: And this is always been among our people, hasn't it?

D: Yes, j nloaL-lost colony.

B: As far as anybody can go back.

D: He left. He went back and come back, and they was gone. They never waited

for him.

B: Uh-huh. -\ .i,

D: He got 'D__,_ somehow, buTt tdid' t--but he comeback anyhow.

B: Yes sir. He was delayed, wasn't he?

D: Yeah, and he--they cut on the tree C72 -TVW Island. That's what cjL


B: And so, do you think this is why many of our Indian people, ir-eat most of our

Indian people, not all, have White blood, and this White blood is very apparent?

D: Yeah, C

B: Do you think this is because they mixed with the lost colony?

D: Ur-hum (affirmative)

B: Well, this is a--this is a very interesting subject and people all over the

United States are interested in this subject, and, uh, .

D: My grandmother was a Lowry.

B: A Lowry.

D: A Lowry.

B: What was her first name?

D: She had a brother named W sLowry.

B: Yes sir.

LUM 34A 17

D: And her--his wife was Katherine Locklear. I. \ was-M,-" we called

her. She was a doctor amongst the women. '-? -\ < no doctors

and she was a mid-wife to--to go to the women to have young-uns.

B: tr.- Cft, \\ was- since you mentioned doctors, do you remember the first man

Indian doctor that we had, Dr. D. W. Locklear? Is that right?

D: Dustin W Locklear "r C< ,

B: And do you know where he went--do you know--well, let me ask you--do you know

about when he began to practice medicine?

D: Eh?

B: Do you remember when Dr. jOe,._ _f Locklear began .

D: Yeah, Dr. -I.,l'ir went off to practice medicine in ? with old Dr.


B: Was this in the last part of the 19th century that he left?

D: Yes, and he was good as any:that hit the .ground.

B: Um-hum.

D: One of the best doctors in the world anywhere.

B: Whatever happened to him, sir? Did--how did he die?

D: He c.\- r- &:/ himself.

B: He committed suicide in other words.

D: Yes, he married a white woman, and her own--it was against the law then for pp)eJ'i]7?

rpf Colored or a -Ni -Indian person to marry a White woman.

B: Um-hum. It was against the law.

D: Yeah. He married a lawyer's daughter.

B: A lawyer's daughter.

D: And they tried him in court for it and he e/ '

B: Um-hum. And do you think this led to his qo4uiing-4%r '-' 'j Ju%

D: I think it was just that time when that thing-- -.r \/ \leVe.le Vwm..

B: Um-hum

LUM 34A 18

D: And so she left him. : ..OC rr : .. ,.)-V .i

B: Took too much and never did wake up.

D: Yeah, well he done h1i purpose\,

B: Um-hum.

D: olok( ^ W 4 '

B: Um-hum.

D: He f */ do it.

B: About how old was he, sir? Do you remember about how old he was when he

committed suicide? 1e-ea-ir-,

D: He was about--I'ld say about two-ed- Awn ...-v years nlA

B: A very young man then.

D: He was S He was

B: You don't happen to remember where he went to school and got his medical

training do you?

D: No. No. I wouldn't, but the Indian, Dr. Brooks, Pou- Qt_.'r and all the

other doctors around, all went to the same school.

B: Um-hum, and he was, uh, he--he certainly was an M. D. wherever he got his

medical training.

D: Um-hum.

B: Uh, do you remember- w, when I was a little boy, uh, Mr. Sam Bullard was con-

sidered to be one of the wealthiest people in the |v0,- andWO community,.

D: Big city.

B: Yes sir.

D: And John.

B: Yes sir. Were all those very prominent people?

D: Eh?

B: Were they well-to-do people?

D: Eh?

LUM 34A 19

B: Were-they well-to-do people?
kVul b;T
D: Oh, yes. They'lc-be- farmers and.

B: Um-hum.

D: .everything. 'JLivermore borrowed twenty thousand dollars from Big

Jim Bullard.

B: Um-hum.

D: And they build that store -a _,'

B: Um-hum.

D: That they I I1 come j the store.

B: And those were in the days when a thousand dollars was really a thousand dollars,

wasn't it? Ra

D: Really a thousand. And he send the other S -1 pi 0 0 a^O

B: Yes sir, I've met him. .r .tv *

D: Yeah. There's inj:v-, John, and t- A \ vt 1,ti 7, the richest

one of them. Grows cotton, r4 i red cotton.

B: Um-hum.

D: And he grows corn, had a saw-mill--I put on his saw-mill for him up there.

B: Um-hum. Do you remember my father, a saw-mill man, Parker Barton?

D: Parker?

B: Yes sir.

D: Yeah.

B: Did you know him?

D: We was -alwaya together.

B: You were?

D: Yeah.

B: What were you doing in Georgia? Were you. .


B: Working in -tow__

D: Yes. rri 'r had his wifenamed Mizzy and he left her here, then.

LUM 34A 20

B: Yes sir.

D: Parker get- turpentine. Well I say that after the barrels have been full and

everything. I [VeJt4 Q V/ $Itnd M

B: And you were very young men at that time, weren't you.

D: Yeah, I didn't bae 0 &i I get his hands off of the car g.r _

(oD: YeJah,6 ^C ^4f I

B: (Laughs) He was a very small man, wasn't he?

D: Yeah, (p 4/ C/4' I couldn't t64/ Tf Lord, he said, maybe it's cause

I would start him back home. Ig say, Parker you're not saving your money


B: Um-hum.

D: When he get back home.

B: Did you boys take a little snort--take a little drink now and then?

D: No we didn't drink then.

B: So you didn't.
D;ko-t- Jtn 9J
D: No.A Nothing about liqu r.

B: Uh-huh. How about the girls? Did you boys,-uh, have--talk to the girls? Have

girl-friends and that kind of thing?

D: Um-hum (affirmative)

B: What would you do on Saturday nights? How would you entertain yourselves? Did

you have dances and that sort of thing?

D: Yeah, and sociable plays.

B: Um-hum.

D: Things like that. (Laughs) Oh, we had plenty of fun.

B: Uh-huh.

D: But I had a mother who--you had to be in-bed at ten o'clock--you're grown.

B: Um-hum.

D: didn't get in.

B: And, uh, this cL P-tI i/fA4 is this where you cut a hole in the tree

LUM 34A 21

and the, and the, uh, sap drips down into the hole that you cut into the tree?

D: Into a box. What you call a box.

B: And you carved it out?

D: Yeah, tha-eeet d -fr ez7 A cS -fl, You dip it out of that box, but

they quit that. They use a cup.

B: Uh-huh.

D: They squirt the bark off and take two little nails and hang that cup in there.

B: Ur-hum.
D : T rh t c L .f C ) _ _
D: T b a- e) Now when--when you pull these boxes, _

B: Um-hum.

D: But that was still there. I cif .."1e -A *'. .. .. /I


B: And when you distilled it, then it became pure turpentine like you buy in the


D: ytAl\ 0)w4 '4r: e

B: Yes sir. What else did people do to make a living besides pull--g-ie turpentine

and farm?

D: Well, some wou44 6Orp?''y^ and all kinds of jobs and work.

B: Urn-hum.

D: _- work aemen years.
B: Do you remember when the railroad was--either one of the railroads came through

Pembroke? fr

D: Uh-huh (affirmative) I remember about the Seaboard did, but I dDT .

B: The Seaboard.

D:, The Coastline train.

B: The Seaboard qOf Line and the Atlantic CoastjL -'i

D: Yeah.

B: And the LiU-n the. CoasLine is younger--which is the oldest one of those railroads.

LUM 34A 22

D: Seaboard.

B: Seaboard's the oldest.

D: And this is just the branch road here.

B: I see.

D: Pick up here. .

B: Where does the Seaboard--do you remember where it goes to from here?

D: It goes into Raleigh.

B: Into Raleigh.

D: Wilmington. I just remembered from Wilmington to Hamnook (?)

B: Yes sir.

D: This is the branch road, but the main line of the Seaboard goes into Raleigh

and then to junctions ca4tO Florida.

B: I see. Uh, did.. .

D: I stayed there three years.

B: Um-hum.

D: In in 1900.

B: Um-hum. Well, did the railroad sort of change things when they came through?

D: Oh yeah, but, uh, they tn -A -\i with the Indians .C4 they had the

Indians -'. >. -. *;.:..4 tz r A \it L <,

B: Why were--were--would the railroad men take the land, the Indians' land with-

out paying them for it.

D: Yes.
Tce -r ?
B: Uh-huh. And then the Indians would .Lag the tracks up,

D: Yeah_, C(laughs)

B: Did they have law suits about it?

D: Yeah, didn't do NS no good.

B: The Indians' word didn't count for-anything in court in those days.,

D: iid .; to wreck the trains.

B: Uh-huh.

LUM 34A 23

D: They didn't have no, 4 O c v '

B: Uh-huh.

D: Na=sdiad (^JJ7j^ /#If ^ A^<^ t^'i"^^ <1 ttfln /Tpcfc: ,

B: Well, I've heard an old tradition about Henry Berry Lowry, and this tradition

says that once Henry Berry Lowry took a train, stopped the train, got on the

train, pulled the whistle wide open and then opened the throttle wide open

and put everybody off, and lelt the train go until it ran out, just, you

know, a kind of a prank. Did you ever heard--hear about it?

D: I heard of it.

B: You don't know whether it's true?

D: I don't know how true it is. Henry Berry. .

B: Of course, his. .

D: .dnly done what he ought to have done.

B: Is.that right?

D: When he come home they had '" Wilmington by themselves, and, uh, he come

home, %ta e Cf-of the militia .C-E-E There were-thirty of them.

B: Um-hum.

D: And they killed his daddy and his brother. Made 'em dig their own graves and

then shot 'em in it. That's when Henry Berry got the--got them -k -ej C&Ct ( /C;(< I

B: Um-hum.

D: And he killed everyone o the thirty except one and he killed him the morning

he went to the St/ V down here. He & 4

B: Um-hum.

D: Nick McNeil.

B: Nick McNeil.

D: Yeah.

B: Um, well, that's--I tried to write--do some research on him and wrote about
him once, and I called him a guerilla warrior of reconstruction days. Would you

call that--would you say that's an accurate title? Was he a guerilla fighter,

LUM 34A 24

sort of like?

D: He .

B: An underground fighter?

D: He--he only done what he had to do,1 way they treated his people.

B: Yes sir.

D: i ( t wiuldi't do it.

B: Um-hum.

D: And then he come and they-wouldn'tttell where he was. Killed his mother--no

Didn't kill his mother--killed his brother and made 'em dig their own graves

and then shot him in it and covered him up. When he come in, he got his com-

pany together and he killed everyone of 'em but one. He .hot him, but he got


B: Um-hum.

D: McNeils.

B: Well, now we, uh, understand this Henry Berry Lowry--when people write about

him they generally say that, uh, they refer to his period in Robeson County

as the reign of terror. Some people call it, uh, the rebellion--the Lowry

Rebellion, or the Lowry Uprising, and they say it lasted from about 1774r )- '

D: Yeah. Sir L 4v I I

B: Or from 1764 to 1774 'Is that correct?

D: No. My mother when Yankees come through--she went under the house--robbing

the people. Taking it)a +i: cc

B: That was at the end of the Civil War?

D: Yeah. And the Rebs got behind 'em and killed everyone of them. That's the

'eason-they call this river the-Harper's Ferry.

B: Um-hum.

D: There's an island back in there that's Henry Berry Lowry's Island.

B: Um-hum.

D; Ain't never gonna get to him.

LUM 34A 25

B: I understand--I've heard it said that there was $42,000 reward, dead or alive.

Did anybody ever collect that money?

D: No They never got it.

B: It still hasn't been paid, has it?

D: He still ain't .- .f

B: Do you think anybody knows where his body is?

D: No. Let's see, he--he didn't die there. He didn't--he went to Mississippi.

B: He went to Mississippi, uh-huh.

D: He was shipped right from Es a ib.

B: Shipped from iU-Es t on the train?

D: On the train in a box.


D: Big box. And the preacher done it, too. A White man done it.

B: And was he alive in that box?

D: Yeah. There was a hole in the board tacked on that Jh k Cent c Jc 'J CA *.

B: I've talked to Mr. Wilburt Warriax. Yod know--do you--did you know him? He

lived to be a hundred and nine. He died just last year or te.year before

last. Did you know Mr. Wilburt Warriax?

D: Knew him all of my life.

B: Yes sir. Do you think he was actually that old?

D: Yeah. There were four of 'em; two girls and two boys, Frank and Wilburt.

Frank was the preacher. And the two girls--they come to this country--they

come from Tennessee. They were White people.

B: I see.

D: And put up with old man Joe Locklear--Big Joe Locklear. They stayed there
VACW (Ac,1 yd^LA
and l scattered about, went from one to the other.

B: Do you remember anything about a White poet named John Charles McNeil who used

LUM 34A 26

to be editor of the Lumberton, -. newspaper?

D: Yeah.

B: Um, he wrote something about the river once, and he said that the river's

original name, it's # sweet Indian name)as he called it, was Lumbee River.

D: Yeah.

B: Is that correct?

D: That's correct. That's what it's called now, Lumbee River.

B: Um-hum.

D: oi' C/ that, it.floated way back, you know.

B: Um-hum.

D: Down to Georgetown.

B: Um-hum.

D: It floated some timber down there.

B: Um-hum, and they started calling it Lumber River then to, uh, because it was

used to float lumber.

D: Um-hum.

B: Uh-huh. Can you remember a time when--when people had small ships and boats

on Lumber River?

D: Oh yeah, boats.

B: Can you remember a time when they used water to, uh, for sawmills--to furnish

power for sawmills?

D: Yep.

B: And for jams(?)?

D: Um-hum and for steam boilers..#

B: Yes sir.

D: And once I seen a killing. ..

D: Seen a killing done up here Boiling oil. Boiler busted.

LUM 34A 27

B; Um-hum.

D: And I condemned that boiler too.

B: Um-hum.

D: I told 'em that boiler had a blister in it, I says, and don't you never

let it get out of water. I says, you letAit get out of water and then turn

water on it, it will blow up. And it did, too.

B: It exploded.

D: It had killed a farmer, it killed Richard Oxendine, it killed Art, Taylor. .
B: Was this Arn Locklear?

D: Yeah.

B: I-R-O-N?

D: Iron Carter.

B: Iron Carter, I see.

D: Old man Richard Carter was their daddy.

B: Um-hum.

D: Iron and Taylor.

B: Um-hum.

D: They both was killed.

B: I'm very much. .

D: They buried them in the same--same grave. Right down at the old Oxendine

graveyard ov- 44-s r-e r

B: I'm very much interested in Indian folklore, and I want to ask you--I heard

a story when I was a child that people search--and I know they still search

for buried treasure in this area--and they tell stories about that when, when

the treasure was buried that one of the--one of the people were killed and

his head was buried with it, and the spirit of this man which was buried with

this buried treasure is supposed to guard the, uh, the buried treasure. Did

you ever hear of that?

LUM 34A 28

D; Yeah, I've heard it.

B: And then. ..

D: Aty up here on his island. It's off down the river

where his island was, and it's a moun It will never get in the water up ti


B: Um-hum.

D: Ande Q,&A 6 z \A 4 tc't^ < ^ LVA 'U-U. kC 08, \z Ci' \oA C tu1 t

B: Um-hum. Something--something will run you out. Spirits?

D: Huh? Yeah, the spirits. They, uh, once me and a fellow Troy Roberts and

_b___ got the biggest that I ever seen.


B: .Made Dial, and now what we were telling about the--the spirit of the

L ,i/,It and the buried treasure and we ran out of tape because I can't

see well, and I hope we didn't lose too much of that. I hope we didn't lose

any of it, but this folklore is very interesting to me and to many other

people, besides, a"d I wanted to ask you about an old song whichr-mi, I heard

some people sing when I was a child, and the words went-rdidn't the devil

howl when we came out of the wilderness.

D: Yeah.

B: Do you remember hearing that as a boy?

D; Um-hum (affirmative)

B: And do you think this refers to the time when our people, uh, came out of

the Indian religion and embraced Christianity--became Christians?

D: Um-hum (affirmative)

B: And took the Christian religion?

D: Yeah.

B: Now other--can you remember any words of old songs?

LUM 34A 29

D: Oh, Lord. All kinds of songs my grandmother sang.
If II '
B: Um-hum. Did you ever hear of the song Red River? Red River with water so
deep and wide?
t I/
D: Where the water flows.

B: Yes sir.
It t
D: Where sweet water flows.

B: Um-hum. And there was a tradition, I've heard, about an old battle which

was fought when--when so much blood was spilled the river was actually

red with, uh, blood. Did you ever hear of that event, or was that. ?

D: Yeah, I have. That was the year when my boy was in the army. Yeah. Had a

battle with the Japanese. L ,1 t., ? a ec<.

B: Uh-huh.

D: And they killed so many of 'em, and, uh, the Indian people just )d%*e

__L_ soldiers into the river Wi tf C<1 i t'l cC .

B: Um-hum.

D: Who ___ja that ?

B: Well, I didn't know. I just heard that song sung around here, uh, and, uh,

most Indian musicians would play it. Did--when you were a boy, did they play

a- guitar?

D: And fiddle.

B: Um-hum.

D: All kinds of music.

B: And did they call a guitar a box?

D: Yep.

B: Then?

D: Yep.

B: Um,

D: Sure, we'ld have--we'ld have parties, and dance. Danced all night and.
D:ane Sure we'id hae-we id3

LUM 34A 30

B; They'ld just whoop it up and have a good time.

D: Yeah, and have a good time.

B: Did they, uh, did they have any jQ ,il around there to drink? What did

you used to drink?

D: They had' 0,1c They had lique-or. (Laughs) \'T I jf q ei C a 6uX-_

Danced all night--dance a little longer,,,)!, / ,i!' t, stay all night and

come in in the morning and go back for more. All A /If 0.a. A ,G\, V, A

B: What kind of dances would you do, uh. ?

_D ____: ___ ^Scap-a-down Ctri'

B: Uh, what kind?
D: ) we called it Scap-a-down.
B: Scap-a-down.

D: Yeah.

B: Scap-a-down.

D: And then we had what they called the Rank'n'Tank (laughs)
11 it
B: The Rank'n'Tank.

D: Right. (Laughs) We'e-et the Indian dance and danced--the Indians getting
I' I,
around sad dancing and playing--shaking--the Goutd Seed ance.

B: Um-hum.

D: Have a little gourd the size of your hand--about that long and you put a little
rock and shake it up and Gourd Seed Dance.

B: Sounds like a tamborine.

D: Yeah. C& t Aft )

B: Well then, since you mentioned that gourd, there used to be, oh, thousands and

thousands and thousands of gourds, and, uh, when I was a boy people would use

gourds for a lot of things. How many--what kind of--how did they use them?

D: For water gourds.

B: For water gourds?

LUM 34A 31

D: For when you drink water. I got some hanging up yonder now.

B: You have? Uh, did they use them for anything else?

D: Huh?

B: Would they use them for anything else?

D: No, 'cepting only to drink water out of.

B: Um-hum.

D: You hang it out in--in the sun every morning.

B: Um-hum.

D: And let it dry. That keeps it from souring the water.

B: Um-hum.

D: That's what we always drink out of. We never drink. .

B: Well I--I've drunk water out of them and it makes the water taste better, it


D: Yeah. I got one hanging in yonder.

B: Um-hum.

D: I've had it for years and years.

B: There's a little red-looking, well, when it gets red it--it's red--pepper.

Little tiny pepper.

D: That's what they calls a cayenne pepper.

B: Cayenne pepper.

D: And I mean it's sL o I+p\v !

B: It's k ^ (laughs)

D: I laugh. Do you remember Johnny Arch Lowry--Pink?

B: Um-hum.

D: ad -ea-sa named Pink and Mb9 \C4 drank and drank a long, his wife hiding the

salt and pepper.

B: Um-hum.

LUM 34A 32

D: Red pepper.

B: Yes sir.

D: They had a little red p/6; l'A f VA. and they got a little cayenne on his

shorts and he had dinner ., }h' the pepper and never washed his hands.

B: Um-hum.

D: h/Taking him a leak. .

B: (Laughs)
tt V I 1/
D: Call to his old lady--come on here, he say and get me something. She says,

what's the matter Pink? I got a pepper--a little pepper and got a little

of it on my pecker and it's burning the out of me. (Both laugh)

B: Oh, I guess we'll have to censor that.
D: A C {. C t S es J 1 fJ tf^;P<-J )he said,

thank you ) ) She said, that's ( )

B: There was a kind of, uh, that reminds me of a kind of medicine people use--I've

heard people talk about using called Wicky or Wicker. Which was it?

D: Wicky.

B: Wicky. And when you put it on the skin, you know, to cure whatever skin ailment. .

D: That's for the itch.

B: Is that right.

D: Yeah.

B: Is that the seven year itch.

D: Seven year itch.

B: What we call the seven year itch.

D: Yeah (laughs)

B: And that's still just about the only thing would cure it?

D: Yep. Grandmother--Uncle Willy--lazy anyhow.

B: Was that the man they call Lazy Will?

LUM 34A 33

D: Yeah. Grandmother (iAl Ii her son Willy was a nut, you know.

B: Uh-huh.

D: Nathaniel (?) Willy.

B: Oh, I see.

D: Had four--five of 'em, and Uncle Willy was lazy anyhow, and she told Uncle Willy

to go up to the big bed there and get us some wicky. Now he didn't know she

(laughs) come out -- a ........ t _-__a r -log kitchen there, and he

had a five foot board the door was made out of.

B: Uh-huh.

D: And it shut from the outside, and got an arm full of wicky .an me and

Grandma dug it, come home and ToVUA it. She says it's the only cure for it.

B: Um-hum.

D: And told him to come on and go in there and take a bath Z^-& ---"----- *

She didn't tell him, she says I know that it'll burn, she says, oh, it'll burn

a little, but it will help you get rid of that itch. Uncle Willy went in there

W W % tleh 'i oor shuts from the outside, and he laid on the board oF

i/(.e 7 cypress boards.

B: Um-hum.

D: (i7s p 0i, Ore-, aLTu and I propped a--I propped a, a up

against the door, so he couldn't break out of there when he got to burning.

I v ti C-, (
ooIt fi (/ lf t l
o4 Where are you? I says I'm outside says open this God-dog-it door.

I says I been forbidden not to open that door. I'll get a whipping if I open


B: Uh-huh.

D: God-dogged if I ain't a going-to open it. i'ii 'V .yard down about a half

a mile from the house.

LUM 34A 34

B: Uh-huh.

D: Made of brick. There were two roads that go down to the field, or go around so

you can go to it. There's a big bunch of C,9 berries down there, at the
l[J himself Ulbf'^ / I /
brick yard. Uncle Willy even got a ay, hisself _-" JL He say, Made
It fII I
he says, open that God-dog-it door. I says, I can't do it, and when I opened

it I says, C_(dt CA ) I never didn't hurt it.

B: Uh-huh.

D: And he's the only one that did hurt in the family. He never wanted to wash.

B: Um-hum.

D: And he come through that doQr like a goat.(laughs)

B: Re A I heard something about somebody running around the house
and they got that wicky--made them so hot that they got out of their clothes

and started running around the house and yell to their wife and says, have my

clothes when I make the next round.

D: (Laughs)

B: Did you hear. ?

D: Yeah, and Uncle Willy took off th ir /-^ 44 ,- And this is the
S-Vvre- iea .- "s T
only s4y- - the house* at's from here up yonder--that house yonder, and then

gO 1 4- goes around the old rcOCU. yonder--that's a bunch of

"-brrrei now.

B: U"-hum .. c fsc nIcc I C AzC

D: (deepC- -th-u^ -.A-. la ump y"n in the water and come up.

By the time you come up \ say God-dog it, God-dog-it. I got--

I got to laughing and he heard it. Said, Made I hears you.' Ain't you hears
A A^ :*C
something? I--laid- out in the 1t4 berries there watching him. My Grandmother
s -Fo i n tth 'l_) "t /" "
sent me there to watch him. He .L "k--d., ______ and he come up a

shivering and God-dogging itching, and kept '-

B: Um-hum.

LUM 34A 35

D: I'm hiding--he looks all around. He says, Made, where are you? You here some-

where. I was in the Ift berries. He couldn't see me.

B: Um-hum.

D: Got--he got out and come and the air full of these little fti> I rjc/Ar-

about that long.

B: Um-hum.

D: That:light on your hand. After hunting e got IVCA And I was running.

Close to the house, and I went up to thel ) P^^'6 I1 went up a#

ree. I was, uh, /CI G knocked me down the trunk and

dow-the_ (laughs) and we'ld play games like that on one another.

B: Did, uh, Indian people used to make their own whiskey?

D: Yep.

B: In the backyard or in the woods, or somewhere like that?

D: Woods. In the L r/O made whiskey right down there in the. .

B: They still do. Some of them still do.that, don't they?

D: Huh?

B: Don't you think some of that, still -goes-od-today? Uh, don't you think, think a

little--a little whiskey is made in the woods still, today?
VO-e aL44
D: I believe it is. 'Even my brother-in-law made it.

B: Say 4e did?

D: Yeah.

B: Was that strong stuff?

D: Eh?

B: Was it strong?

D: Good and strong, yes.

B: Well. .

D: The ______ it was strong enough.

LUM 34A 36

B: The backings? Now what's the backings?

D: The backings that whiskey comes from and later on when the whiskey comes running.

B: Uh-huh, what's left of the backings?

D: Tk" tc (Loti- Ltr iLLk *a,(

B: I see.

D: See, it's caught in a copper still.

B: Yes sir.

D: We had a tank--a ) tank.

B: Uh-huh.

D: About a forty gallon tank, and we cut the top out of it--the tank, and I had

me a copper cap made and the worm opened.

B: Now what is the worm, is that. ?

D: Copper.

B: Made out of copper. Is that what, uh, the fumes--is that what the--is this what

the steam, after beerier (?) boiling comes through this copper pipe, and this

copper pipe comes through water and gets cooled and then gets condensed, is that


D: IeL a condenser.

B: So the worm is a condenser then, isn't it?

D: Yes. Our still was eton that island down there for two years, me and my brother-


B: Uh-huh.

D: Theres-' t-l grape brandy down there.

B: Grape brandy.

D: Yeah, make it out of grapes.

B: Uh-huh.

D: It's grapes, but. .

LUM 34A 37

B: How about persimmon beer and persimmon brandy? Did you ever drink any of that?

D: I don't recall--persimmon beer.

B: It wouldn't make you drunk, would it?
k 0
D: No, no. Call it possum liqueur.

B: Possum liquor. (laughs)

D: I had the best stuff I ever drank. We put sweet potatoes in it--baked sweet


B: Yes sir. I remember eating potatoes and drinking some of that when--when I was

a little boy. It was very strong, but I don't remember if-it could make you high

or not It)qAAt' I 4 c +Jll&G

D: We--we made it at home. We made it at home. Now we had several big persimmon


B: Uh-huh. Well possums are supposed to like 'simmons. Do you think they'do?

D: Oh yeah. I've treed--I've treed many a possum up a 'simmon tree.

B: Uh-huh. A persimmon is also an Algdquian Indian word, and possum is an

Algdquian Indian word, uh, many--many a word has passed into the English language

from the Algauian people, uh, a good many of them have.

D: Yeah.

B: Yeah, like terrapin and words like this.
D: Terrapin and cooterSg, There are big cooters here. Some of 'em )

out of the canal down there.

B: This is the big mud--mud turtle we mentioned a while ago.

D: Yes.

B: How big do they get to be?

D: About. .

B: Now you're--you're measuring about--let me feel your hands. You're measuring. .

D: From that size. .

LUM 34A 38

B: Uh-huh.

D: From that size, on up to that size.

B: About as big as a big bread basket.

D: Uh-huh.

B: Uh-huh.

D: And he's A s his shell. Lab 'v. y

B: Uh-huh.

D: And his VAocd v is on his tail, and he'll bite you if he gets up--if you go

back after him.

B: Uh-huh.

D: We got one out by -' b ou^-

B: I've heard people say--have a superstition that if he bites you, he'll hold you
-i- A-(.MO-AdcTI,
until mte-s4d Have you heard that?

D: Yep, yep. One got Walter--Brother Walter and we had to cut his head off. That

was on a Saturday.

B: Uh-huh.

D: No. On a Friday.

B: Yes sir.

D: We cut his head off and throws him under the rose bush. And his mother had him

sweeping the yard out and he hadn't seen that cooter's head, and he g-rabedhim

by the big toe.

B: After it had been cut off?

D: The day before that. It was Saturday evening, and we cut that head off Friday


B: Uh-huh.
I l ^
D: They got nine leyrs.

B: Uh-huh.

D: Nine kinds of meat in 'em.

LUM 34A 39

B: Have you ever eaten any?

D: Of course I have.

B: Are they good?

D: N, 9 -l

B: Nine different kinds of meat.

D: Of meat.

B: Uh-huh.

D: Yep. You take it and boil it. Throw him in the hot water and get that shell--hard

shell off, and then takeA knife and cut it--cut all that meat out.

B: It was in the paper some time ago that Robeson is one of the--about the only

county in Nbrth Carolina where there are still alligators. Were there alligators

when you were coming up? Were there many of 'em?

D: Tk1, I.\ seen alligators, and there's a gar-down there called Gator earm, and

down here on this side of Lumber ) nA: 4 (i 2 plenty of them

down there now.

B: Um-hum. What kind of snakes do you run on this, uh, you know, in this swamp

around here? Are there rattlesnakes?

D: Rattlesnakes and pilots and blacksnakes and moccasins. Moccasins would rather

stay in the water most of the time.

B: Um-hum.

D: But a rattlesnake don't go in water.

B: Um-hum.

D: It go aRt hunt water to drink.

B: Um-hum. The Indians tell snakes can't bite you under the water. Is this true?

D: Uh-uh (negative)

B: You don't trust an Indian (laughs).

D: There's what you call--what you call a water-rattler. He'll .aw-4 up on the

LUM 34A 40

water--you know, bottom, and the water--and the water that deep.

B: Ur-hum.
D: And you see him curled up--that's a water-rattler. Don't you go near him.

He'll bite you.

B: Um-hum, and if he bites you, that's it, isn't it?

D: Yeah. It's poison. The rattlesnake and pilot (?) is the poison snake, so we have

five poison snakes here.

B: Uh-huh.

D: V-L 4t he--he-ate a rattlesnake i'A. frcL yv- M\u than any

other snake, 'cause he is warning you not to come up on him.

B: Uh-huh.

D: And you damn near.. .

B: You better not, hadn't you?

D: You better not, neither./ illed one right out there.

B: Um-hum.

D: 1914.

B: nPilot b doesn't warn you, does it.

D: Uh-uh, Mg. '<- but he's called a rattlesnake's pilot. Now the rattle-

snake. .

B: Uh-huh.

D: .has a pilot in the shoe of the other snake.

B: Is that right? I didn't know that.

D: Yes sir, and in the shoe.

B: Um-hum.

D: (7AC 4 ) '-e, )

B: I want to ask you about collard greens. You know, most Indians, uh, like collards.

Do you like collards and collard greens?

LUM 34A 41

D: I like 'em cooked the Indian way they're cooked.

B: If they're cooked like the Indians cook 'em.

D: Yes.

B: I've heard people who came in from the outside and said, we-cooked collards. We

boiled all the vitamins out of 'em. Do you think--what do you think about this?

D: Ty cook 'em too much and you ruin 'em.

B: Uh-huh.

D: My wife about that and she If the collard is, uh, 3OMtA_ kt_

collard patch, but she had nothing to season it and she had a possum cleaned.

B: Um-hum. ?

D: And so she put the possum possum.

B: Um-hum.

D: She put the possum in the pot with the collards.

B: Uh-huh.

D: And so CCt c('e), for collards that

you ever seen, and you W%14''l/1kC and you open the pot and see [i 't /

in there and it's from the possum, and if she is a cooking with the collards

by then. .

B: Uh-huh.

D: Then every time that possum would come up he had his arm full of collard __

t come up and he has his arm full of collards again. I laughed at that

)3SIJUZ He said, now you may think I'm a lying, but I'm telling you the


B: Um-hum.

D: He said, I'ld rather eat collards more than anything you ever-- ^ \,, '

come on and get some collards. No thank you I don't want no collards. (laughs)

B: Well, I think they're delicious.

LUM 34A 42

D; Eh?

B: I think collards are delicious.

D: Yes, they're good. That's vegetables--all kind of vegetables.

B: He was--we were talking 'about collards, and, uh. .

U: We raise them. When Daddy used to plant potatoes in the spring, he'd plant

/7 'ee in the fall, I'd find--I'ld make the biggest ones I ever--I had four, in

6C fact, and they were like that red one. There wasn't no--no ones in the


B: Um-hum.

D: Well that--that--that's a mashed potato. It's breeded from a artichoke.

B: Um-hum.

D: Artichoke. We'id grow a artichoke here MCC n11\' All kind of vegetables,

and that artichoke--we make pickles out of it.

B: Um-hum.

D: And that's the best ih f.c- you ever eat.

?: You can buy 'em in that store, pickled, down there at Lumberton.

D: Can you?

?: They--they said they're good for anybody that's got, uh, low blood, or high blood--

high blood with low blood count.

B: Um-hum.

?: It builds their, you know--they're good for 'em.

D: With the rinds. .

?: I'm reading this week, why there's a woman, she's got all types of herbs in-4

S< i" They're out f-om Arizona and there is all kind of herbs, and this--

she said if you'd write to her she d send you a bookleti- the herbs what the

Indians use.

B: Um-hum.

LUM 34A 43

?: And she said--that was Dina4Shore--and said, the other day on--every morning--

and she said the herbs--the Indians was never sick--only from freezy weather, you

know, where they were at, and they were never sick. You didn't have ailments

of the White man because they used herbs and everything.

B: Uh-huh.

?: And she told what all and everything about it, and she had this old fellow on there

i-. was part Indian. That's what he i; he- had him a car and every-

thing, 'cause he said all I buy is sugar and coffee.

B: Did you, uh, have a lot of different ze-home remedies when you were coming up?

What would they give you when you had a cold?

D: All kind of herbs. We never had a doctor.

B: Um-hum.

D: There was nothing \4A doctor. We had sweet barley, sage.

B: Sage.

D: Catnip and all kind of herbs, you know.

B: Uh-huh.

D: Ann Margaret McPherson. (?)

?: You know why they call her the whore-hound?(?)?

D: The whore-hound. They bit her -Yl "phe -aey call, her the whore-

hound. Oh, my goodness.

?: That's a fact. (laughs)

D: That's a fact. .

?.: Oh, Lord, a beautiful memory .' --- '--

B: Do you make--don't you make tea over there.

?: Yeah.

D: Makes some godd tea.

B: Uh-huh.

LUM 34A 44

?: It says it's good for, uh, uh, making in the spring, you know?

B: Um-hum.

?: You put a-little bit of sulfer in it and some molasses and it'll kill the spring


B: Um-hum.

?: My mother used to give it to us when we had the measles to break the ___ c_

B: Uh-huh.

?: You remember that?

D: Water would break out the measles on you.

?: What?

D: Water.

?: Yes, but sassafras would bring 'em out, you know.

D: Oh, sassafras would cure 'em--sassafras tea.

B: He believes in sassafras. Uh, .

D: It's the best medicine I ever took.

B: Did you ever hear that if you had--if children had chicken pox they'd put 'em

in the chicken pen and let the chickens fly over their heads?

D: Yeah, they'd U 6 -'-h 0. ( Me' )

B: Do you think that did any good? (laughs)

?: My--somebody told me that, and I--I tell you Id/jt( I It'll .._

ULC Jc Samson Lff from Lumberton there was a hospital,

and somebody--old parson come down--an old man. I can't remember who he was, and

told him, if he would take the--a black chicken--the blood--while it was hot .

___ ____ ___ ^ comes from inside and it would break out like a little

D: Jthad a bump.

B: Um-hum.

?: And he had 'em so bad, and, and while the blood was hot he just put it on there

LUM 34A 45

and let it stay till it dries. Blest if it didn't cure it.

B: Yeah? Now how does the Zshalgrs (?) work, Miss Vidall (?)? What is sbatgnes

like? This is a skin disease?

D: Yeah, it works in your side Ih --

?: In your side and ( Inside your stomach.

B: Uh-huh.

?: And it--it'll come--it hurts you worse inside than it do--it comes from the inside.

B: Uh-huh.

?: I don't know what it does though.

B: I heard of it.

D: .chicken blood.

B: Uh-huh. _'-_ disease. I've heard of it, but I didn't really remember anything

about what it was|it( '

?: My mother had it one time and shot a large bird and didn't do her no good, and

/ f/L2t / / A and I done that and it cured her. I never heard her complain

no more. She didn't like it. She just--she was. ke 'She didn't like it.

B: Um-hum. WellA I'm going to ask you the obvious question, and that is, what should

we young people do if we want to live to be a hundred, or 98, or 99, right along

where you are, and then keep going? What's the best thing we could do to live

that long?

D: Well, now you're asking 0_ question. It, uh. .

B: (Laughs)

D: You know there's something in it sy- . to say, if you want a long life,

honor and obey your parents.

B: That's great.

D: And you'll have a long life. My mother done month \t of being a

hundred years old.

LUM 34A 46

?: He was 99 the second. He was born in 1873.

B: 1873, so he's actually 99.

?: He sure is.

B: Uh-huh.

?: Now, I've got that from my--my uncle.

B: Now you're his daughter.

?: Yeah, Uncle Peter come here and he was 95 when he died. I only heared--Grandma

lived to be a hundred. Uncle Peter was 95. Uncle John was up in his 90 s.

B: Um-hum.

?: Now that--his whole family was, uh, up in the 80 s and 90', except one, and that

was Aunt +l_ ,; \ ,l wasn't it? Well, she was up pretty well.

D: Who?

?: Aunt A

B: Aunt f- 3 (

D: Oh, Aunt _boy_.

?: She was in her 80 s.

D: She was over that.

?: -q t uh1R was up in his 90's and he died, wasn't he?

D: He wasn't about 90.

?: Yes he was, v,.e -,'

D: Long livers. .

?: Can't you remember Uncle John 3mv\6 ?

B: Yeah, I sure can. When I was. .

?: Well, that was one of his uncles.

B: Shame. (Laughs)
B: Shame. (Laughs)

t-a^^^LA^-W^-^^^ **--",~I

LUM 34A 47

?: ITeWS Uncle Willy?

D: Ik N1 _S you know.

B: Yes. He was the wickedest one in the _aC_-

?: One time I seen him drunk out of his mind t 4L ( and he said, oh grave,
he says, what--where is thy victim, and he had it backwards. You know that part

of scripture -where -c it's "oh grave, where is they victim? Oh death, where is

thy sting?"

B: Um-hum.

?: And he just had it backwards, and !,-*' ,/..-. just killed hisself a laughing. .

D: I bet you M1of\ h there's around his old house up there.

B: Is that so?

D: Where he used to live. He lived by himself.

B: Uh-huh. tIrti\l C( .

D: And, uh, he married a woman. She was /_ widow, and she left and

went down to Florida to where her boy was, and out there-- ptk 'O ,^ VIout there

too. At least in Georgia. Her name is Victoria. I S widow. Well,

Uncle John married her, and she had three children, but she didn't have none for

him, and she'1- out there. I'$d say, Victoria--she went out there to see her boy,


B: Um-hum.

D: She'ld say, do you reckon Jimmy--she always called him Jimmy--do you reckon Jimmy
I, It
would let me live with him anymore? I' d say, did he tell you you could come

home? She says, no, I run away from him. I said, ____ C( t C-

Now, he wouldn't.

B: The Indians were kind of strict back then, weren't they?

D: Oh man, (laughs) and, and God-danged if I know what she been off doing.

B: (Laughs) I want to ask you something. It seems to be a practice, or used to be,

-'-Apw lte,?e

LUM 34A 48

that when, uh, a family, uh, when they left property--when they left land, as

they usually did--they'1d leave the land to the boys, but the girls didn't usually

get any. Was it that way when you were coming along?

D: I'm still a boy and I didn't get none.

B: (Laughs)

D: Only what I bought.

B; I mean where there was property, you know, in the family.

?: Yeah, well, my Grandfather used to own this whole I/JU>- { Three hundred acres

\ ^ 4 rich in cotton.

B: Uh-huh.

?: On this side of the railroad. I'm sure you know where the old McCormick place


B: Um-hum.

?: It was, uh, Captain Pa{lfC who sold that--you know where the McCormick place

is--on that land. That was--that was his. Right at the river he had, uh,

jtC(C f ) 1V, t il' 0,e N back here.

B: Um-hum.

?: Up on that hill--a little orchard. A plum orchard, a grape orchard, and everything--

still down here. Well, Grandpa's house was up--the old family house was

burned in '45, and, uh, he--so he had two boys, _'_o-C. and John.

B: Um-hum.

?: They went to Fort Lauderdale.

B: Um-hum.

?: And, and they married down there. Their Uncle John had thirteen boys and one girl.

B: Uh-huh.

?: And *_bDC I don't know how many boys he had, but I--I remember them coming
Cback rfi'ttt _Ecoming r ac k
back here when-I was a little bitty girl. Just Y&V _lei coming back,

^SHSS9r coming

LUM 34A 49

of course, and that was when some of his boys were still down there--some of

his family come back here, uh-huh, and--and he sold it all off except the 76

acres--79 acres what is--right through here where tme-u-d property was.

B: Um-hum.

?: Make I' and 2X_' and he give it to--he'ld say, here's my price, and

he'd give it to his last set of children.

B: Um-hum.

?: Mamawas so *f#e # You remember Uncle Odell, don't you?

B: Yes ma'am.

?: Well, Uncle Odell's property was up there and then he went on it. I think it's

been--we've traced it back to--it's been in the family a hundred and fifty years.

B: Um-hum.

?: We--me and. .

B: What piece of land?

?: This one piece of land has been in the family a hundred and fifty years.

B: Um-hum. Uh, does your--does your Father's health--I mean, is his appetite good?

This is what I wanted to ask you.

?: NBask about something--I want to tell you. He--he don't eat VI-7 foods. He

eats eggs and grits.

B: Uh-huh.

?: And, uh, bacon for breakfast, and milk. Now, he drinks milk three times a day.

B: Uh-huh. That's healthy, isn't it!

?: And one cup of coffee every morning, and a cream sometimes if he--at night, maybe,

before he goes to bed I'll give him some. He don't eat much of the time, but I

give it to him, and he loves vegetables. He'll eat all kind of vegetables. Potatoes&

B: Um-hum.

?: And fish. I give him fish once a week.

LUM 34A 50

B: Um-hum.

?: And he--that's important in keeping good--in keeping good health.

B: Um-hum.

?: I went to school in--up there at, uh, college and--under Miss Martin. You remember

her, don't you?

B: Uh-huh. Miss fI

?: And, uh, yeah, I finished--I lacked about two months--not quite two months. It

was in May. My mother got sick and I come home, and I went back !U Ly L tA

and that was in '33 and '34.

B: Um-hum.

?: I finished in high school, but I had two or three subjects in the--they were two

years/nhmaiMyw /VV OCA1 tt{ s VL.01001 T

B: And.we better get your name on this tape too, hadn't we?

?: And, uh, from the old college there, and we took dieticiant 1 .j)ec courses and

everything in there, and, uh, we had, uh, chemistry, and, uh, Miss Martin taught

courses besides just cooking and sewing. She taught dietician. You know, in your


B: Uh-huh.

?: But my mother was always like that.

B: Um-hum.

?: We--we raised our own vegetables and everything. Peas and corn and we always

canned it. Well, I still can peas.

B: Does he smoke?

?: No, but I'll tell you, snuff won't give you cancer.

B: Um-hum.

?: He's been using it ever since I can remember.#, Ai T I ci'I <

B: Uh-huh. He never did use the bottle heavy did he?

-^Lpis^8-Lr*mTI. i u-g: .

LUM 34A 51

?: No.

B: He never did use any of that stuff we were talking about a while ago, did he?

?: No, no. Once in a while he--once in a while I'll go get him some.: If his

appetite slows up, I'll go get it and I'll make him and eggnog.

B: Um-hum.

?: I'll beat two eggs up and I'll put it--put sugar, um, sugar, nutmeg, and two

tablespoons whiskey, and then I take my mixer and beat it up and give it to him,

and' T-Wo t There's one time he say..

B: It'ld fix his appetite up, huh?

?: Yeah sir. It will, and I--I make it by the quart and then set it in there, and

then give it to him, and he certainly lived off of that from September to June

one time.

B: Um-hum.

?: That's right, and C_ he couldn't /Al' even. It like to killed


B: Um-hum.

?: And he--wherever \ .'. ,- .. take that cod liver oil and' stink,

and it smells so. I never could stand that medicine, no, but it's good for you.

B: Um-hum.

?: It's good for a cold.

B: Um-hum. It's the castor oil I can't stand.

?: Oh, well, they used to kill children with that and it would upset system, didn't

you know that?

B: Um.

?: 'But it's the best stuff to use on your hair you ever put on it.

B: I never tried that. (laughs)

?: You know what? That's what Miss Martin used, and she, and you know, I've seen her

hair when she could stand on it, and another woman right a-straight across the

LUM 34A 52

swamp from us.

B: Um-hum.

?: They would put--they would warm it and rub it in their hair and tie it up over

night, and next morning get up and give 'em a good shampoo, hat Ali o s

B: Um-hum.

?: He eats pretty good. And milk. He has to have his milk three times a day. He's

always drinking milk, but he wasn't--he'll drink one cup of coffee a day. Used

to drink it three times--every morning and night when he was at home, but when he

was--when I was coming up here, we girls kept the home fire burning, and he--and

he worked hard. He'Jd ride his wheel to Maxem, Lumberton, and what? Red Springs

and all around here. I can remember, and he'd have my little box on there.

B: Um-hum. How many of you children were there?

?: There's eleven of us a-living.

B: Eleven living.

?: That's right, and not a one--there's about three died--three or four died when

they was babies.

B: Um-hum. Could you tell us their names and ages, or would this be hard to--to

remember their ages right off?

?: No. The oldest one, and she was and LIW0e.. Archie's wife was 71.

B: Um-hum.

?: The second day of--the 18th of August, and lC C she's


B: Um-hum.

?: And, uh, .) she's 65. I'll be 60 next Thanksgiving day, and then there

was nine--nine girls and four boys.

B: And this is Maidish ('h

?: Made, uh, oh let's see, it's--mine name's Betty, and. .

B; Betty.

LUM 34A 53

?: And, and then there's one girl next to me named Le, and she lives in Charlotte.

She, um, I believe she's, uh, 58.

B: Um-hum.

?: And there's another one born--the next girl, she was born in 1917.

B: Um-hum.

?: And, uh, there's, uh, the oldest boy was born in 1919.

B: Um-hum. We were talking about..

?: And then. .

B: .how many generations here--while ago here. .

?: There are five right here now.

B: Well, you've got five generations here right now, is that right?

1: Um-hum.

B: That's pretty good. Five--five generations here, and we didn't plan this, did we?

D: Um-um. (Negative)

B: It just happened that you've got five generations right here. That's great.

?: That's how I. .

B: I just know he's getting tired.

?: They got two, yeah, a boy and a girl, lsi r'\1 's grandchildren is his fifth

B: Um-hum.

?: There are two young--a little boy and a little girl here, and then he's got--he's

got five, uh--there's two girls and three boys) fifth generation.

B: Um-hum. He's got five great-grandchildren.

?: Great-grandchildren.

B: And I'll bet you don't know how many grandchildren, do you?

?: Well, I've got that and

B: And that's ls ____ He's laughing, 'f \t it a (

LUM 34A 54

?: ____ C__ tell 'em by<,,,Let's see, I got three. Florence has got

three. That's six. And Leela's got six.

B: That's twelve. 1 1

?: And Zama's got six, and Leanan's got three--three boys.

B: That's 21. Go on.

?: And, let's see, Simon's got three, and, uh, there's--one of the boys--there's two--

uh, the oldest boy's got two, Annie's got one. She's the only one that i,,#

uh, in, uh, baby sister has three--three children.

B: That's thirty, I believe.

?: I believe it's somewhere about 95.

B: He's got about 95.

?: Grandchildren and great-grandchildren. I'm--I forgot how--I did have it wrote d

here somewhere and I laid it down, and I don't know what I done with it.

B: And it would take some figuring to get all those--those names and ages in,

wouldn't it?

?: Well, I got 'em all tangled up there, too.

B: Um-hum (Laughs).M4surprised. He's just laughing about that.

?: rTq an t t- *ro0ry +\g^ I:t {.^^i bt-nS..,

B: Quite prolific.

?: enAnd we haven't had but one death in the family of the grandchildren.

B: Uh-huh.

?: Two--Sonny Boy and Brace's only son. Brace's only son got killed in New York City.

B: Uh-huh.

?: And, uh, about three years ago on a motorcycle, and he had seven children, and

baby brother's got five. Oh dear, I had it wrote down somewhere and I got tangled

up on the children. I says, well, I got mixed up and I laid it down and I don't

know where I put it. (Laughs)

B: Do you think the family -a"Nwy- larger now among our people.

LUM 34A 55

?; No.

B: .because of. .

?: ASome of 'em is and they're cutting them down to two--about two and one, now.

B: You'Id wonder why this is. Is it because we're being better educated or, uh. .

?: No, it's because you don't--you want--you don't want the trouble tending to 'em,

;and we had a good time, is all. I remember when there was six or seven of us

going to school at one time. There was a job, and we carried our own lunch, too.

But each one had a chore to do before he could go to school every morning, and

he knowed to get. Some fed the hogs, some brought the wood in, some pumped

water and I milked--I. .

B: You milked the cow?

?: Yeah, I milked the cow and I cooked breakfast. We had hogs, cows, and you can't

hardly find nothing now through the country. People's got lazy and no good.

They just want to buy -ethe store.

B: You don't -a A4 -
?: That's what's a killing a bunch of 'em. They don't eat the foods which is right,

and they don't cook 'em right--all this old store-bought mess.

B: Uh-huh. I've always wanted to try that milking, but, you know, I--I remember

trying it once and nothing happened.

?: (Laughs)

B: Somebody else could squeeze and they d get milk, but I didn't get anything.

?: I used to milk two cows. I cooked breakfast and go out and milk the cow and come

back and get ready, and when I hit--crossed the railroad dirt, uh, crossing in

front of the old college, the bell would be ringing, but I' d make it--I'jd
run all the way. Get up side and go out the railroad and go up side that rail-
road and run.

B: Um, when you--I--I was coming up it seemed that a lot of the families had cows.

LUM 34A 56

?: Yeah.

B: Families would have a milk cow.

?: Yeah, and they had calves.

B: Fresh milk.

?: Fresh milk, and they had chickens, and they raised their own chickens, their own

meat, their own vegetables. All you had to do was buy coffee and, uh, sugar from

the store.

D: from the store.

?: And just about two minutes from the railroad you started to see the prettiest

O__ at_& I ever seen in my life, when I was a girl, and I think your grand-

father had it down yonder on the river, didn't he? In them little __ WJ_ ,

I used to go down in there a lot to A ot Q ut c 's home. n John,

that--his wife was some kin of me, and I often remember when your grandfather had

a store--a store up there, and he--he had him a house built over there miles