Citation
Interview with Norma Jackson, October 16, 1972

Material Information

Title:
Interview with Norma Jackson, October 16, 1972
Creator:
Jackson, Norma ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:
Language:
English

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Florida History ( local )
Lumbee Oral History Collection ( local )
Spatial Coverage:
Lumbee County (Fla.)

Notes

Funding:
This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

Record Information

Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management:
Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/.
Resource Identifier:
LUM 31A ( SPOHP IDENTIFIER )

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LUM 31 A
October 16, 1972
Norma Jackson
interviewed by
tew Barton
Idl-typist





B: Today i' October 16, 1972. I am Lew Barton recording an interview

for the Doris Duke American Indian Oral History Program under the

elstocese of the University of Florida. And tonight I'm in the

home of Mr. and Mrs. David Jackson,..that's J-a-c-k-s-o-n. And with

me is the daughter of Mr. and Mrs. Jadkson who has kindly consented

to give us an interview. Would you :.ell us what your name(is?) I

know but I want you to tell.

J: Okay, Norma Jean Jackson.

B: That's N-o-r-m-a .

J: Um huh .

B: J-e-a-n .

J: Yes sir. ..

B: Jackson J-a-c-k-s-o-n. We have to spell these out for the lady

who types them up. You understand?

J: Yes sir.

B: Norma, may I call you Norma?

J: Yes sir.

B: Um, how old are you?

J. Nineteen.

B: And how many of you children are there?

J: Nine.

B: Nine is that um, .how many boys and how many girls?

J: Three boys and six girls.







2



B: Could you give us their names?

J: You want me to start with the oldest?

B: Oh well, either with the oldest or with the youngest it

doesn't matter.

J: I'll start with the oldest, Evelyn Jackson, Irene Jackson .

B: Wait now could you give me her age?

J: Evelyn Evelyn's twenty five, Irene's now twenty two, Norma,

that's me, and I'm nineteen, and David, he's seventeen, Rosemary,

she's fifteen, and Paul is um, fourteen, and Donna is um, twelve

and Wanda is eleven and Porky's eight.

B: And that's nine?

J: Yes sir.

B: Well um, I wanted to talk to you about um, a number of things.

Just about anything you want to talk about. Um, first of all, I'd

like to state that we're in your home and this is near Raeford,

North Carolina, right?

J: Yes sir.

B: R-a-e-f-a-r-d and this is in :.,ke County which adjoins

RobeDson.

J: Yes sir.

B: And this is the county that used to be called Upper Robe&son until

1911, when it was out off to form a separate county. It's the

youngest county in the state, by the way. And um, of course, our

people er the Lumbee Indians spread out from Robe~son

in the Hoke County especially, and they also occupy some of the

other adjoining counties. Norma, I um, want to ask you about school.

The last time we talked you told me you planned you wanted

to go to college and and you graduated last year?







3



J: This time, yes sir.

B: Um, from which school?

J: Hoke County High School.

B: Hoke County High School. And you wanted to go to college?

J: Yes sir.

B: And um, you weren't able to go?

J: I could' I could' went but um, people will not give us a

job around here to work with for Social Workers.

B: Yeah. Is it your ambition to become a Social Worker?

J: Yes sir. A Social Worker or !a nurse. So I'd rather be a Social

Worker to work with people.

B: Um, You love people?

J: Yes sir.

B: And um, 'bout .. about what average do you know what your

class average was in High School?

J: All together?

B: Um huh or did you ever figure it out?

J: About eighty so, altogether.

B: Um huh well did you have any financial difficulties in going

to school or anything like this?

J: In a way, yes, but daddy said if we wanted to go he woild get out

and work to pay our way. But he watn't able to.

B: Yes, ( ). Your father's been ill a long time has he?

J: Yes sir.

B: About how many years has he b een ill?

J: I'll say about fifteen or sixteen.











B: Um huh and um, de-yeo farmtrc I

J: Yes sir.

B: And, how bout your mother? Is um. is her health good or bad?

J: It's bad.

B: Um, these um. little difficult things, now what *as the

second oldest gitl, Irene, is um, she still in college?

J: Yes sir.

B: She did go?

J: Yes sir.

B: How many years did she go?

J: She's been in there four years .this makes her fourth ye :r.

B: Um huh w 11 that's great. I know it's -xpen-rive to go to college,

and um, it's very difficult. to anybody. So um, this is nothing

to be ashamed of because um, um, we all share this problem. And um,

Do you think you'll may be able to start the second semester or maybe

the next year? Do you still hope to go to college?

J: Yes sir. I'm gon' try and find a job and work and wait a year and

then go, where I'll have enough money sqved up so I can get in. .

pay my way, at least the first year.

B: Um huh were you not able to r;et a loan or. .. thru the

government agency or anything like this? A scholarship maybe?

J: No sir, it 's not that, um. .. (//o/lC) Maraus from the college

said that nobody would give him a job for us. So we had to have

jobs before we can get into the college for a social worker.

B: Um huh. ..

J: And they won't give us a job.

B: You have to have now what kind of job is this now?

J: It's any kind of job, going around to people's house and find out











what they need and stuff like that. But um, they have Social Workers

in Raeford and they said they had too many of them.

B: Um, do you know how much thi pays, this job as a social worker?

J: No, but he said that we'd start out with a dollar sixty an hour,

because we're just beginners.

B: Um huh do they they have any Indian social workers in .

in this county?

J: Yes sir, about three.

B: About three. ..

J: Yes sir.

B: Oo you don't think it was because office or anything like this?

J: No sir. I don't think so.

B: Um huh, well that's fine. Um, t:e problem is that um, you do. ..

you do have to have a job. Some kind of job working with people or .

J: Yes sir, working with people.

B: UM huh, to even study I mean to enter college and study

or to get a job?

4: To enter college. See, they train you for social worker. so

they try to find jobs for you to do but, he's been unable to find

any.

B: I see in other words they sort of give you field work to

do in connection with your college training in this field?

J: Yes sir. You go to school about two days out of the week and work

the rest of the week.

B: I see. That's very unfortunate. Um, as much need as there isin

the county, it's sort of surprising um, there wouldn't be .

I know the needs here but you just don't have the jobs, right?

J: Yes sirt that's it.







6




B: Um huh .and this has to be a job that pays .

J: Yes sir.

B: or if you earn money. And this is the only way you can become

a social worker?

J: Yes sit. But then I decided that if I don't if I don't

hurry up and git that money when I'm gon' just go on

and be a nurse.

B: Yeah. .

J: I can still work with people.

B: Well, some.. .. some Lumbee Indian girls are becoming nurses.

My own niece, you know Maxine, um, her last name is um, Blue,

became a nurse last year. She became a registered nurse and she's

working at the Chapel of Eona. Um, we have um, you think we have a

need for nurses. .. a great need for nurses in this county, and in

RobeIson County?

J: Yes sir. I think we do, as many wrecks as we're having.

B: Well, Norma, I wish you good luck and and I hope it works out

for you. Have you thought of trying Robeison County?

J: Well, No sir .

B: Or did yo go across lines and work that way?

J: No it has to be in the own county you're living in.

B: Um huh .

J: That's what they told us.

B: Would work *ith um, Tricounty Community Actions or any um

c Community Action Center Program, would this be valid training?

Would this um, would they accept this um, if yo worked for a while

with um, Tricounty Community Action Incorporated, which includes these

three counties, Robefson and um, does this include Hoke?







7



j: ( Uf... ).

B: I know it's a three county setup, Community Action Program.

J: Yes, we have a Community Action program in Raeford.

B: Um huh .

J: And I don't know where all they go, though.

B: Um huh but you weren't really able to et on that?

J: He didn't really say about that program.

B: Um huh you don't know whether that would be acceptable or not

do you?

J: No sir. I really don't.

B: Um huh .um .

J: But they are gon' help me. He told me .they d call me for an

interview one day this week. from the action program,

B: Um huh .

J: see if he could do something for me to help me.

B: Well, I certainly hope that you you get in the field that you

love and that you want to get into. And I'm sure that there's many

openings that they want people and I'vteard complaints that they

can't get these people to work or enough people of the right kind

to work. But um, this program um, if you started to college with this

in mind and um, followed, you know, courses, sociology courses,

rand this sort of thing, I'm sure it would help you. But um, .

um, if um, you got this work, vhey would would tlere be

some provision made for you to um, for part of your expenses or

all of them to be paid if you got in on this particular program?

J: Yes sir. They .they pay you to come to college and work with

'em.

B: Um huh I see. Well um, I certainly hope things work out for

you. And um, 'bout how much farming farmland doi., your











family tend?

J: I'll say about twenty acres.

B: 'Bout twenty acres.

J: Yes sir.

B: Are you tenant farmers?

J: Yes sir.

B: Um huh um, I'm wondering if um, um, any of the other

children have um, what kind of ambitions they have and so on. Has

Irene decided what she wants to be?

J: She still wants to be a teacher. And David, he's going to the army

after he graduates from school this time.

B: He thinks the Army offers the best opportunity in this particular

case Mybe this isn't fr question 4C Czh



B: -. '
B~


J: I don't really know. He wants to fly jets and stuff like that.

B: Um huh .

J: So he's going to I 4r-7&) N- 1 and then ,..,



B: He seems to be um very um, efient in his studies

and always made good grades and so on. Um, how do you feel about

the school situation? Now, you've gone from you started .

um, when you started school were you going to an all Indian school

when you started?

J: Talking 'bout in High School?

B: Um huh .











J: No, they integrated the first year I started high school.

B: You were in all Indian Schools up until you started high school?

: Yes sir.

B: And what is the name of the school in Zet County that was an

Indian school at that time?

J: Hawk Eye School.

B: Hawk Ymc' um huh that's H-a-w-k- E-y-e. and it was. ..

was that a high school and an elementary school?

J: Yes sir.

B: But they have integrated now and also there isn't any

schools that you mn call an Indian school or a Black school or

a white school, right?

J: Yes sir, there's not any around here I know of.

B: UM huh. .well it seems that integration has been more complete

in EHlt County than RobeBon from my own observation Um, but I

don't have any official figures on that. Um, is your father .

your father is also minister, is he not?

J: Yes. sir.

B: Is he a part-time minister, full-time .?

J: Part time.

B: Um huh .and um, how. 'bout how big is the congregation

in his church?

J: I'll say about fifty .. five people.
So
B: 'Bout fifty five people. AThe church isn't really big enough to

sustain, I suppose, a full-time minister.

Jt No sir, it's not big enough.

B: Um huh .

J: They're under a tent right now. They're building n church.

B: Um huh are there very many Indian churches in i county?
M. re,







10



J: Yes sir there's quite a few.

B: Um huh and by the way, that name Hoke, is spelled H-o-k-e-,

Hoke county. Um, I know one, one minister, one Indian Minister,
&Lodcfq nr
who lives in Hoke County, Revernnd Montana Lade ra. Do you know

him?

J: Yes sir, I do.

B: And um, he ur, he has a church also, doesn't he? I mean does he

pastor a church?

J: Yes sir Le c ,. .. I think it's I can't

remember the name of it.

B: Um huh right here where we're we're transcribing

this interview, Norma, this is a rural area, isn't it?

J: Yes sir.

B: Is there anything that young people can do in the afternoon. Um,

P0 you have anything like dances or movies or recreational facilities

anything?

J: No sir. We used to have one at South-Ser School, that used to be

Hawk Eye. But, they started some shooting and stuw out there so

we just had to stop it from out there Lots of people was gittin'

hurt.

B: Was it an interracial thing was it, um was did all

three races attend out there?

J: Let's say, just about two races.

B: Um huh .

J: But some white5would come. .

B: Um huh .

J: Mostly Negroes Pnd Indians.

B: Um huh it didn't work out so well.
/J: /sir.
J: 1 No sir.







11



B: Um well it's um that's interesting. Um,do you know why, um,

people just didn't get along too well or why?

J: Well, some of the boys that probably was drunk, ad they didn't

know what they were doing.

B: Um huh Could you get Police protection out there, or something

like that for these things, or you don't know nothing about that?

J: Well... well, see we had a police out there one night but um,

somebody said he resigned so, <- hadn't anymore out there.

B: Um huh .

J: And we go to the ball games. just about every friday night,,

B: Is there, um, .are these ball games do you have any. ..

had any trouble out of that?

J: No sir.

B: Are they. do you have policemen on duty there. when you have

a ball game at South Hokb?

J: This is not at South Hoke, it's at Hoke High.

B: Hoke High .

J: We have about eight or seven.

B: And it's well um, chaperoned, if you want to call it that. I mean

there's. you always have somex- there to keep order?

J: Yes sir.

B: Well now, in your experience in going to school. you're a Lumbee I

Indian, right?

J: Yes sir.

B: And um, by the way, did you know your name. your last name is

English. It's an Engli'h name. And Ictually it's a lost colony name,

which is the um, English colony which came over in fifteen eighty

seven (1587). Did you know that?






12



J: No sir.

B: So, Iactually \t-sE definitely one of those lost colony names.

Um how 'bout your relations. I don't like to use that

word. Um. .. um. .. in your your associations with other

students at school.. um, were they pleasant? I mean, was there

conflicts between Indians, Whites and ?

J: In my case, no sire All of us got along together, every race,

when I was going to school. We never had any trouble about this.

B: You haven't had any incidents that you call racial incidents?

J: The only one we had was a Negro boy :ho li "'` killed a White boy.

B: Um huh when was this?

J: Well see, it was in, um, May.

B: Of this year .?

J: Yes sir.

B: Um huh so on the whole, it seems that, um, integration has

taken place, um. in an orderly fashion.

J: Yes sir. The boy wouldn't hit the White boy not lessen' the White

boy would have caused him first.

B: Um huh ... how 'bout the teachers. Um, are they roY' 1'^

6 the teaching staff (COL

I of all three races?

J: Yes sir.

B: Um, huh, and um so it now it seems to be accepted,

would you say?

J; Yes sir. ( think it's accepted.

B: Um huh well this is all interesting. Norma, how 'bout um ..

what do you do for entertainment, I mean at all I mean do

you have you have no dances to go to, you have no movies um,

what do you do, watch TV?







13



J: We can watch TV or give a party.

B: Um huh you know most of the Indian people. many of our

Indian families are a little strict 'n bringing up girls, especially

girls and boys, for that matter. I think this is it 's

fair to say this is characteristic of our people, our Indian People.

Um, don't answer this unless you want to, but um, do you consider

your parents to be a little strict?

J: Yes sir, but I think they have a right.

B: That's fine .um.. there used to be um. .. whenI was coming

along, there was um, a definite bedtime when your boyfriend came up

S. came alone. He could sit up until a certain hour, say nine

o'clock and then parents wo ld call bedtime. ..

'J: utm!?=-O, .

B: And you'd better be in (pronto) too, right?

J: Yeah, but ours is not that short. We get to twelve. .

B: Um huh .

J: to stay up.

B: that's great. 'Course you have great parents and they're

very understanding, I'm sure. Um, did you have another problems

in the school? I mean was there any other problems, (/41/j V

.;Q ^ #.) Did you find the

work difficult? Now you know when you're working with along

with three groups. did you see any difference or could you tell

any difference in the um, .um .level. rid you. .. wo Ild

you have to separate the people in c)iasses according to their

scholastic level or you know?

J: Yes sir, in some cases, but, that was the time that the White

was more educated than we)so, they knew more than we did. So,







14


when we started going to a White School, we learned a lot more than

we had when we were going to an Indian school. Their had more thijga

to work with and we didn't. So we just learned more when we started

going to a White school.

B: Do you think the white schools, when you started going to the

white schools, that they had mor ua,,lies and better supplies,

better buildings and that sort of thing?

J: Yes sir. They really do. They had everything they SrJM-y needed

and we didn't, when we was going to Hawk Eye.

B: Um huh how 'bout teachers. Now you've studied under .. how

many have you stud,'"^ under. three different kinds? Three races

of teachers?

J: Yes sir.

B: So, is there any difference between teachers of the three races

that you know? Um, or do you feel like I'm putting' you on a

spot?

J: No sir. There's no difference between 'em. All of 'em want you

to learn something.

B: Um huh .

J: So they try to make you study.

B: Um huh .

J: And they teach..

B: Do you think one teacher is aSgood as another ?

J: Yes sir. To my opinion they are.

B: Well, that's what we're interested in, your whatever it is. ..

please feel free to express your iwn opinion. Um um. so

you think that um, integration in your case hasibeen a help, hasn't it?

B: Yes sir.







15



B: Um huh if you could change anything in the school system a .Cac

if you had the power to change anything at all, can you think of

anything that you d like to change?

J: ( f7c" A a a r.. ), the only thing I can thiik of is the

busing.

B: Is it um, that you have to travel long distances by bus or that

sort of thing?

J:. Yes sir. But this time they made it a little difeent. B hey

should put all the high school on one bus, and the other grades on

another bus, to my for me.

B: Um huh .

J: So that's what I think they should change.

B: Were there problems on the bus. .. maybe putting all the children

together. sometimes the bigger students pick on the little

ones you think?

J: Yes sir, they do that quite a lotj

B: Um huh and itA& not always possible for the bus driver to

drive and keep order in the bus?

J: No sir, it's not. They can't leave their seats.

B: Um huh .

J: They&just have to turn around and go back to school with the whole

bus load.

B: Um huh maybe they'll get this problem ironed out. 'Bout how far

did you have to .e-to school, Norma?

J: I'll say about. six or seven miles. It was long. from here

to Raeford is 'bout ten miles. Sowe had to walk. ( a )

W had a long route to go so .

B: your (b I e ) is a bus -river?

J: Yes sir.







16



B: Um huh you know how many miles he drives each day?

J: I don't really know. He drives in the morning time, but he don't

in the afternoon because he has football practice.

B: Well, um, you think if you could change anything, it would

be the busing situation.

J: Yes sir.

B: 'bout how about whut time do you have to get up in the

morning to get to school?

J: We'd get up exactly five o'clock every morning.

B And start getting ready for school?

J: Yes sir.

B: 'Bout what time would you laa* for school. You get up at five and

it takes you Uic J .

J: 'Bout something to eight. .. about five to eight.

B: From five to eight to get to school?

J: Yes sir.

B: Um do you have to would you have to meet the bus out on

the road or how far uculd you have to walk to get to the bus?

J: We don't have to. we didn't have to go nowhere but out there

in the backyard, but a loj of other students had to walk about a

mile through the back of the woods to get to the -ja. when it was

raining so they'd just stand out there and get wet and come to school.

B: Go to school wet. .

J: Yes sir.

B: Um huh .there wasn't any kind of shelter or anything like that

along the way?

J: No sir, not a thing.

B: Um huh .so that's something else you might want to change too.







17



you know. 'Cause if you had little shelters like I've seen in some

places you might. those students could at least get under shelter

in Sb whether and do not have to (v/ ,,

F Is it has it been new

experience that the buses when they change um, came about the

same time every mornign, so you would know approximately when to go,

so you didn't have to go too early or too late? Or is there lots of time

in there that you, um, to be sure to be there you had to. is

this iCL& r-1 ^
-^

J: They come about the same time. They might be a little late when

something's wrong with the bus, but they come about the same time

everyday.

B: Um huh can you remember any accidents in the years that

you rode the buses Jid you have any accidents?

J: No sir. We never did have any on our buses.

B: Um huh .was the busses in North Carolina ( J-e rcl ) down

to very low speed. un, they can't really run very fast can they?

J: No sir they can't.

B: 'bout thirty thirty five?

J: Yes sir.

B: Urn huh *. -1IfT1 L 1lUCt4C1.?^ l/'7 b,1 -



Do students usually drive?

J: Yes sir. But( J o ) for the grammar grades they have

S- ladies and men that comes from homes and ( drives bus )

every day and works at the schoolhouse maids and janitors.

B: Um huh .do you think that um,maybe I shouldn't be asking you this,

but I just want to know your opinion. um, do you think of the







18



high school students make a5good driver as anybody else?

J: Tes sir, I really do. Our trips to highschool, first of all we didn t

have very much t-ouble but parents, they come out there on the bus

drivers.

B: I know this state has had a good record in this direction, you know.

Um, as far as driving is concerned and I know that this is something

that is practiced throughout the state, that high school students

are used to drive the buses. And um, most, if not all instances,

in many instances, unless it's change couple of years ago, zi third;

year. Anyway, you're happy to be out of school, aren't you?



J: Yes sir, in a way. ..n a way I wish I was back.

B: You miss' it?

J: Yes sir.

B: Is it a little lonely around home?

J: Yes sir. since I'm the only person here everyday except daddy,

momma and John.

B: Um huh do you get bored?

J: Yes sir. I don't have anything to do 4es watch TV.

B: Do you do any reading?

J: Yes sir, I do quite a lot.

B: Are the families able to get books from the libraries eventhough they

are not in school? Could you borrow books from the Library?

J: Yes sir.

B: How 'bout a book mobile? Do you have a book mobile?

J: I think we have one in. .. in the (town limit ) 4 of Raeford

but not out in t e country.

B: They don t come out here. .

J: No sir.







19


B: Well. certainly this is one way to spend your time, reading

kSl ;/' /J C" /0 -t/ 9 iaIrJ ),' I think. Urn,

do you love to read?

J: Yes sir.

B: What do you consider to be your best field study. .?

J: I guess (.r ).

B: What do you like to do best in ( school )?

J: To my opinion, I like Biology the beEt.

B: Biology .

J: Yes sir, Biology and science.

B: Ur, do the week seem to drag? ( -/ t 0c- ///t Cf: -

y j>- / f t- f obvious question.

Um, you're used touring with people everyday, that it bothers you

not to be with people everyday ....





J: Yes sir, it really do. If I had a job working, it wouldn't be too

difficult, but since I don't have one, it gets bored just sitting

around the house.

B: Um huh may I ask you a personal question?

J: Yes sir.

B: Do you have a boyfriend?

J: No sir.

B: Why?

J: To my opinion, boys are I won't say that boys are not

really special in my book.

B: You just haven't started dating. um regularly

)?







20



J: I've dated a couple of times, but they're just no fun,. 1o my

opinion.

B: Well, um, what would you change about boys, if you could change anything?

J: I'd teach 'em some manners.

B: Well, I guess that's a pretty natural reaction. Um, and um,

when boys come around um, what do you do? Just sit around and talk

9 7fr something?

J: No sir. Sometime ua go out and eat and go to a movie or go swimming

when it's hot enough.

B: Um huh .and um, well, I won't press that question about boys

dnd their manners I think are. I think I understand. Um .

umr. .. let me see. there was something else I wanted to ask you.

Are these questions being too personal. Are you uncomfortable .?

J: No sir?

B: I appreciate yourlto talk with me. These things are interesting

to those that those that are socio-psychological um, things here

they would like to get into. How do you feel about um, about

interracial (fPewe u )?

J: Well, to my .

B: Don't answer if you don't want to.

K: Well, I will. To my opinion, I don't like it!

B: Um huh .well if you had your choice, you would rather a boyfriend

who is Iddian?

J: Yes sir, I'd rather go with my own racd.

B: Um huh .if I'm not asking. please don't call any names.

But, are there do you know people who do interracial ( cC iC )?

J: Yes sir I do.

B: Does it seem to work out, or does. do you think this is a cause

of trouble between the races sometime?






21



J: Sometimes it is I think they're doing okay until they get

married and when they get married they start fighting And then

they break up.

B: Have you known of many interracial marriages?

J: I know quite 9 few.

B: Yeah. .and you think the difference5le um, too great to bridge

in social differences and that sort of thing?

J: Yes sir.

B: Um, if you had to. .if you were on a naticnuide television, and

you wanted to say something to other youngpeople your age, do you

know what do you have any idea of what you would say to them?

J: I'd just tell them to live together.

B: Um, this seems to be um, you aow the young peo le are always

talking about love, um, in a broader sense than I'm talking about now.

J: Yes sir.
/1
B : And you know that many of the young people of today say that what the

world needs most is love, love,love, like the song goes. .. and um,

they. .. they're serious about this and they say that if everybody

loved each other they wouldn't fight wars and they wouldn't be hunting

ezch other um, you know what I'm talking about?

J: Yes sir.

B: Do you go along with ( fic- O let ) people on this?

J: Yes sir, I'd say that's true. If they'd quit fighting against each

other and try to live together, then we wouldn't have sny problems.

B: Um huh this is um, do you think this is just about what Jeogs

taught, #**et two thousand years ago when he said, you know, love
?
your neighbor. .

J: Yes sir.







22



B: Do you think it all narrows back to that.am-.. whih-is the kind

of love that young people your age are really talking about isn't it?

J: Yes sir.

B: But some of us adults, when we get a little older and a little

prejudiced in one thing and another, when our young people start

talking about love, by the way somebody thinks they're talking about

another kind of love. And do you think they're misunderstood and

that some people think they're talking about some other knd of love

when they're not really talking about it at all?

J: Well, yes sir. I think they misunderstood what we're trying to say.

They don't understand what we're trying to say, 'cause, to my opinion,

parents now are old-fashioned, most of them!

Bt Um huh .um.. er. is there they call it the generation

gap. This is the gap between parents and students I mean,

parents and children. And um, do you do you find itidft j. 'et

that you can't bridge or it's very difficult to

bridge?

J: Not really.

B: Um huh well, perhaps your parents, um, you can talk to your

parents. But do-you think this is generally true of all young

people?
I
J: Some parents just won't talk to their children. Most of the time

most of their parents are away from home and they stay weeks at a time

and the/tjust don t ever get to talk to 'em. But in my case daddy

and momma sits down and talks to us. talks about our problems.

B: Um huh and then you're not afraid to ask them about anything

you want to know?

J: No sir.







23



J: They always. ..

B: That's great. .

J: Tell me what I want to know.

B: Um huh that's wonderful. But you don't think this is true

generally among all young people?

J: No sir, I don't.

B: Um, do you think Norma, that the young people has d ne much to

change the thinking of the older people? Do you think we are

learning hou to -'espect and appreciate what our young people have

to say?

J: Well, I think they might be getting ideas by now.

B: Um huh ., I taught high school, by the way, for three years,

and my students were very close to me. Do you think this is

unusual? I mean they came to me with their personal problems

and I you know, I was alwaylglad to listen. And do you

think this is unusual?

J: No sir. Not to my opinion. We have a l.t of that our school. WE'd

find a teacher we liked real well and we'd tell her our problems and

she'd try to solve it for us.

B: Um. do you think parents and stu remember we're still talking

'bout this generation gap, d think this generation gap iaum, is it

becoming wider or is um, 're they getting closer together, our

parents and young people, or say, adults in general and young people

in general. Do you think they're getting closer to ether and

understanding each other better?

J: I t.ink they're understanding each other better.

B:) Um huh do you have any idea J, this is a difficult

question, I have to think about it myself for a while to come

up with some answers and they'll probably be (Df p e,







24



But can you think of anything, right off, that um, each group

can do, um, you know, to come a little closer together and understand

each other better?

J: Egch group. .0

B: Um huh .

J: I don't really know, not lessen they get. .. lessen they pick

certain ones out of each group to go to le .to other groups

and they worked together on some kind of idea or something like that.

B: Um huh .

J: I think that might help.

B: Young people generally, I found in my own experience, to be very

idealistic, you know what I mean?

J: Yes sir.

B: Do you think this is true of the young people generally? They have

high idealsand um, they um, they do disagree with some of the things,

some of the mistakes. .( ) mistakes because adults have made

mistakes and um, some of us are still making them, perhaps. And,

well, do you have any comment on 9hat? Or do you understand Owe,* wt 4,eCC

J: Urn. .well e'4 t.-shf -rezv4 c.t-u



B: I should have been very clear and simple and said that um, do you

think we're bridging this gap better today than we did yesterday?

J: No sir. To my opinion, they're getting farer apart than they used to

be.

B: Um huh ..

J: Grownups just don't, they just don't understand.. Some of them just don't

even care.

B: Do you think some of them just don't want to understand?







25



J: Well, that could be true. Most of them try to anyway.

B: Um huh and um, if um, if the adults came a little bit towards

the young people and the youhg people a little bit towards the

adult, do you think this might help?

J: Yes sir, I think they should meet half way and that should at least

tell the young people they are at least trying to help.

B: Um huh. .Um, do you think young people are afraid to approach

the older people in regard to some question maybe?

J: Yes sir.

B: Um, what would happen if um, you asked an adult, an older person, a

question, um, you know, if it was a question that they thought was. .

that shouldn't be discussed at all. Are there questions like that...

you think?

J: Yes sir, there's questions like that. But in our ho se daddy sits

down and discusses it with us eventhough he don't think we should know,

he at least tries to discuss it with us.

B: Um huh ,. 44 A// W Um, I keep um, injecting my

options and my opinions after all are not relavanb. But um, I want

to encourage you to talk because I want to know hoy you feel. And

um, this is why. And I don't want to lead you. I want you know,

I just want to get your opinion on these things, because I think we

had. we do have .


TAPE 31A SIDE 2

B: This is side 2 of the interview with Miss Norma Jackson. Um, do you

remember what we were talking about when the tape ran out on us? We

let it pass quite a way without realizing it had run out of tape didn't

we?

J: Yes sir.







26




B: I wanted to ask you something about um, dress at school. And rules

at school about dress, and if you had any problems there or if the

young people and the teachers had any problem with dress and long

hair and this sort of thing?

J: Yes, we um, rules at our school) especially about dresses and vP

hair cuts. Girls dresses had to be four inches above their knees and the

boys had to have short haircuts.

B: Um huh .

J: If you don't, they'd get suspended for a week or two weeks until they

get their haircut, and their dresses down.

B:. UUm huh and the boys um, um, suppose you have a boy in school

who feels that he has the right to wear his hair as long as he wants.

Um, you're not likely to have any, but it's likely to just suppose

t/ ( ), what would happen?

J: We have had a couple like that but um, they suspended 'em 'til they

got their haircut, they wouldn't let 'em back in school.

B: You never did have any court cases or anything ike this did you?

J: Yes sir.

B: What happened?

J: The school always won. C tt^ J

B: The school always won?

J: Yes sir;

B: And the judge would say they simply had to do what the school says,

right?

J: Yes sir.

B: Um, I wonder if this judge knew that the United States Supreme Court

upheld the right of young people to wear their hair way they pleased?

Um, what kind of um, um, this sounds ity but maybe I shouldn't say







27



that, but I understand that there was a test case and um, that the United

States Supreme Court ruled that um,the boys could wear their hair,

you know, al long as they weren't in conflict with their parents

at least. If the parents agreed to im, that the boy could wear

his hair long, what do you think would happen?

8: Well, in our school, most parents didn't. They always liked their

boys with short hair.

B: So, the parents and the teachers and the courts stood together.

J: Yes sir, and the Etudents by their self /

B: Well, that's an unbeatable combination, believe mee But ur, of course,

um, as you know, ur, standards are different in different parts of

the country eventhough we have constitutional rights to do something,

it doesn't always follow that um, the school is going to adhere to

that. But nobody had not many people had the money to go the

desire ... .the desire to go to the United States Supreme Court oer

something like this. They usually figure, I suppose, that it would
_to
be better to just/accept the situation as it was. So, the result in

your school was that you didn't have any long hair, did you?

J: No sir. ( t- J

B: So, (it musta)warked pretty well anyway.

J: It did.

B: And um, those dresses did conform to thef. .

J: Yes sir, they came right down. o( atc41 J

B: Um huh. .No, this is all interesting because um, um, you know, the

city standards afe somewhat different from rural standards I guess.

Of course, Hoke High is located in Raeford?

J: Yes sir.

B: About how many people live in Raeford would you say? That's the county

seat isn't it?







28



J: Yes sir.

B: It's not too large a city is it?

J: No sir. I gue. I .I can't guess about how many. I'll

say about fifteen hundred..

B: Um huh .

J:- Somewhere along there.

B: It's um, It's very interesting because um, the Uniped States is

a big countrVand um, there are different customs in different places,

Now this is um, Now we're talking about a fully integrated school,

right?

J: Yes sir.

B: Um huh and um, can I ask you a personal ( )

J: Yes sir.

B: Do you think the young people were right or the teachers?

J: Um. .. was right about what?

B: About um, the way about long hair and so on.

J: Well I think the teachers were right! If they had short hair and

long dresses, they would respect the school and respect the people

that goes out there.

B: Um huh .well tlas um, that's4very interesting thing, anrun,

course people, you know, have different ideas about those things

and we certainly don t want to get in to any controversy over it.

But um, if you had um, if you had your way then those rules would

be strictly inforced?

J: Yes sir.

B: This makes for a better person don't you think?

J: Yes sir, it really helps a person. And they don't fight as much

and they get along better.

B: Um, how 'bout um, on buses, um, you know, riding to and from school,







29



um, were they generally crowded or do you think there were too

many kids on the buses at times and you know, kinda packed in like

sardines? They used to be when I was coming along. This is why

I am asking you about the busing situation today.

J: Well, some of 'cm had longer routes and the longer their routes

the more students thehad to pick up. So, some of the buses were

really crowded.

B: Um huh did some of the students have to stand?

J: Yes sir, some of 'em did.

B: Um huh even on those long rides?

J: Yeah yes sir, especially the ones that got on last.

B: Um huh well, maybe in the future there will be enough buses

that you know, that everybody will be able to get a seat. And um. .

maybe it'll all work out to the best advantage of everybody. Um,

so you, um, um, you would sort of like to go back ever your high

school days. I think most students feel this way after they graduate.

Do you feel this way?

J: Yes sir. You miss all of your friends. You don't get to see 'em

half as much.

B: Um huh but when you get to college you'll make new friends and

you know .

J: Yes sir. But I don't think would be ( I c- ) my high school

friends.
B: Yeah, that's true. Well I want to ur, tell you that I really

appreciate this interview. Ye helped me a lot, because I am an

older person too, and um, I do want to hear what young people have

to say and um. I hope what =ya told hasn't been to pl; me... Pm i.

J: No sir.

B: Well, um, I think you were honest.






I
30



J: Yes sir.

B: And um, I really do appreciate it, Norma. And I hope you have very

good luck in in getting to college and in getting the kind of

training you want. And that you would be able to get in the kind of

occupation you want, you know, you said you'd like to Ot 4iork

with people, do social work and um, I'm hoping and praying t:is

will work out for you. I'm sure if you have faith and this is what

you want to be that .. ha. you'll succeed because um, the

good Lord's on your side.

J: I hope so.

B: Um, thank you so very much. You've um. .. you've helped us a lot.

J: Thank you.

B: And your interview was very, very interesting and very informative.

You are speaking for a lot of young people.

J: Thank you.





Full Text

PAGE 1

LUM 31 A / October 16, 1972 Norma Jackson interviewed by iew Barton Idl-typist B: Today i . October 16, 1972. I am Lew Barton recording an interview for the Doris Duke American Indian Oral History Program under the elstocese of the University of Florida. And tonight I'm in the home of Mr. and ~rs. David Jackson, ... that• s J.:.a-c-k-s-o-n. And with me is the daughter of Mr. and Mrs. Jadkson who has kindly consented to give us an interview. Would you :.ell us what your name(is?) I know but I want you to tell. J: Okay, Norma Jean Jackson. B: That's N-o-r-m-a . . . J: Um huh . . . B: J-e-a-n J: Yes sir B: Jackson. J-a-c•..k-s-o-n. We have to spell these out for the lady who types them up. You understand? J: Yes sir. B: Norma, may I call you Norma? J: Yes sir. B: Um, how old are you? Jt Nineteen. B: And how many of you children are there? J: Nine. B: Nine. . . is that um, .how many boys and how many girls? J: Three boys and six girls.

PAGE 2

B: Could you give us their names? J: You want me to start with the oldest? B: IDh well, either with the oldest or with the youngest it doesn't matter. J: I'll start with the oldest, Evelyn Jackson, Irene Jackson B: Wait now could you give me her age? J: Evelyn Evelyn's twenty five, Irene's now twenty two, Norma, that's me, and I'm nineteen, and David, he's seventeen, Rosemary, she's fifteen, and Paul is um, fourteen, and Donna is um, twelve and Wanda is eleven and Porky's eight. B: And that's nine? J: Yes sir. B: Well um, I wanted to talk to you about um, a number of thine;s. Just about anything you want to talk about. Um, first of all, I'd like to state that we're in your home and this is near Raeford, North Carolina, right? J: Yes sir. B: R-a-e-f-o-r-d and this is in : . ,ke County which adjoins Rob~on. J: Yes sir. B: And this is the county that used to be called Upper Robe•son until '\.J 1911, when it was out off to form a seperate county. It's the youngest county in the state, by the way. And um, of course, our people. er the Lumbee Indians spread out from Robe-son v 2 in the Hoke County especially, and they also occupy some of the other adjoining counties. Norma, I um, want to ask you about school. The last time we talked you told me you planned you wanted to go to college and and you graduated last year,

PAGE 3

J: This time, yes sir. B: Um, from which schhol? J: Hoke County High School. B: Hoke County High School. And you wanted to go to college? J: Yes sir. B: And um, you weren't able to go? J: I coulda' I coulda' went 1 but um, people will not give us a job around here to work with for Social Workers. B: Yeah. Is it you.r ambition to become a Social Worker? J: Yes sir. A Social Worker or 2 a nurse. So I'd rather be a Social Worker to work with peopj)e. B: Um, You love people? J: Yes sir. B: And um, 'bout about what average do you know what your class average was in High School? J: All to get her? B: Um huh or did you ever figure it out? J: About eighty so, altogether. B: Um huh well did you have any financial difficulties in godmg to school or anything like this? J: In a way, yes, but dadd.y said if we wanted to go he wo,ld get out and work to pay our way. But he wa tn' t ab:.( to. Yes' ,~h"" .,,, ) B: , _________,, Your father's been ill a long time has he? J: Yes sir. B: About how many years has he b een ill? J: I'll say about fifteen or sixteen. 3

PAGE 4

~e... 7 B: Um huh and um, de--j-o1.l farm~ " J: Yes sir. B: And, how bout your mother? Is um is her health good or bad? J: It's bad. B: Um, these um little difficult things, now what tas the second oldest gitl, Irene, is um, she still in college? J: Yes sir. B: She did go? J: Yes sir. B: How many years did she go? J: She's been in there four years this makes her fou '.,th ye :r. B: Um huh w 11 that's great. I know it's -xperr.ive to go to college, and um, it's very difficult. . . to anybody. So um, this is nothing to be ashamed of because um, um, we all share this problem. And um, Do you think you'll may be able to start the second semester or maybe the next year? Do you stmll hope to go to college? J: Yes sir. I'm gon' try and find a job and work and wait a year and then go, where uvJ/1 pay myAway, at I'll have ~ least1\the enough money Sijved up so I can get in first year. B: Um huh were you not able to 1;et a loan or thru the government agency or anything like this? A scholarship maybe? J: No sir, it 'snot that, um
PAGE 5

what they need and stuff like that. But um, they have Social Workers, in Raeford and they said they had too many of them. B: Um, do you know how much tre:'6 pays, this job as a social worker? J: No, but he said that we'd start out with a dollar sixty an hour, because we're just beginners. B: Um huh do they they have any Indian social workers in in this county? J: Yes sir, about three. B: Agout three. . . J: Yes sir. . . . B: So you don't think it was because of m.ce or anything like this? J: No sir. I don't think so. B: Um huh, well that's fine. Um, t.:e problem is that um, you do I') you do have to have a job. Some kind of job working with people or. . . . J: Yes sir, working with people. B: UM huh, to even study, I mean to enter college and study or to get a job? ~: To enter college. See, they train you for social worker so they try to find jobs for you to do but, he's been unable to find any. B: I see in other words they sort of give you field work to do in connection with your college training in this field? J: Yes sir. You go to school about two days out of the week and work the rest of the week. B: I see. ~hat's very unfortunate. Um, as much need as there is in the county, it's sort of surprising um, there wouldn't be. I know the needs here but you just don't have the jobs, right? J: Yes sir, that's it. . .

PAGE 6

B: Um huh and this has to be a job that pays J: Yes sir. B: or if yo1t earn money. And this is the only way yon can become a social worker? J: Yes sit. But then I decided that if I don't if I don't hurry up and git that money when I'm gon' just go on and be a nurse. B: Yeah. . . J: I can still work with people. B: Well, some some Lumbee Indian girls are becoming nurses. 6 My own niece, you know Maxine, um, her last name is um, Blu~, became a nurse last year. She became a registered nurse and she's working at the Chapel of Eona. Um, we have um, you think we have a need for nurses a great need for nurses in this county, and in Robe~on County? V J: Yes sir. I think HO do, as many wrecks as we're having. B: Well, Norma, I wish you good luck and, , and I hope it works out for you. Have you tho,ght of trying Robelson County? V J: Well, No sir. B: . . . Or did yo go across lines and work that way? J: No it has to be in the own county you're living in. B: Um huh J: That's what they told us. B: Would work ith um, 'fricounty Community Actions or any um c Community Action Center Program, would this be valid training? Would this um, would they accept this um, if yo worked for a while with um, Tricounty Community Action Incorp~rated, which includes these three counties, Robtson and um, does this include Hoke?

PAGE 7

7 J: ) . B: I know it's a three county 5etup, Community Action Program. J: Ye5, we have a Community Action -Program in Raeford. B: Um huh J: And I don't know where all they go, thoUgh. B: Um huh but you weren't really able to:Bt on that? J: He didn't really say about that program. B: Um huh you don't know whether that wokld be acceptable or not do you? J: No 5ir; I really don't. B: Um huh um J: But they are gon' help me. He told me they 1 d eall me for an interview one day this week from the)ction Roeram. B: Um huh J: . . . e.ee if he could do eomething for me to help me. B: Well, I certainly hope that you you get in the field that you love and that you want to get into. And I'm 5ure that there 1 5 many opening5 that they want people and I'veheard complaintl5 that t 1 1ey can't get the15e people to work or enough people of the right kind to work. But um, thi5 program um, if you started to college with this in mind. and um, followed, you know, courses, Bociology cour15es, i''and thi5 5ort of thing, I'm sure it would help you. But um, urn, if um, you got this work, \,hey ~ould. would tl,ere be some provision ~ade for you to um, for 3part of your expen5es or all of them to.be paid if you got in on thi5 particular program? J: Yes sir. They they pay ~ou to come to college and work with 'em. B: Um huh I see. Well um, I certainly hope things work out for you. And um, 'bout how much farming farmlm.nd do/2S your

PAGE 8

-----~ ---------8 family tend? J: I'll say about jwenty acres. B: 'Bout twenty acres. J: Mes sir. B: Are you tenant farmers? J: Yes sir. B: Um huh um, I'm wondering if um, um, any of the other children have um, what kind of ambitions they have and so on. Has Irene decided what she wants to be? J: She still wants to be a teacher. And David, he's going to the army after hefraduates from school this time. B: He thinks the case:
PAGE 9

9 J: No, they intergrated the first year I started/1high school. B: You were in all Indian Schools up until you started high school? Yes sir. lfi,/c~B: And what is the name of the school in ~County that was an Indian school at that time? J: Hqwk Eye School. B: . . . um huh that's H-a-w-kE-y-e. and it was was that a high school and an elementary school? J: Yes sir. B: But they have intergrated now and also there isn't any schools that youmn call an Indian school or a Black school or a white school, right? J: Yes sir, there's not any around here I know of. B: UM huh well it seems that intergration has been more complete \-\ok in~ County than Robe~on)from my own observation) Um, but I don't have any official figures on that. Um, is your father. CL your father is also~minister, is he not? J: Yes. sir. B: Is he a part-time minister, full-time ? J: Part time B: Um huh . . and um, how 'bout how big is the congregation in his church1 J: I' 11 say about fifty-:five people. so B: 'Bout fifty five people. 11 The church isn't really bie; enough to sustain, I suppose, a full-time minister. J:: No sir, it's not big eno:,gh. B: Um huh &(\CJ: They' re undeJ: a tent right now. They' re building ~/1 church. . . B: Um huh are there very many Indian churches in~ County? t+,ice.,,

PAGE 10

10 J: Yes sir there's quite a few. B: Um huh and by the way, that name Hoke, is spelled H-o-k-e-, Hoke county. Um, I know one, one minister, 1 one Indian Minister, c-ocl
PAGE 11

11 B: Um well it's um that 1 q interesting. UM,do you know why, um, people just didn't get along too well or why? J: Well, some of the boys that probably was drunk, so they didn't know what they were domng. B: Um huh Could you get Police protection out there, or something like that for these things, or you don't know nothing about that? J: Well. well, see we had a police out 1 there one night but tucttsomebody said he resigned so, ~hadn't/Janymore out there. um, B: Um huh J: And we go to the ball games just about every friday night,, B: Is there, um, are these ball games do you have any had any trouble out of that? J: No sir. B: Are they do you have policemen on duty there when you hr:ve a ball game at South Hoke? J: This is not at South Hoke, it's at Hoke High. B: Hoke High J: We have about eight or seven. B: And it's well um, chaperoned, if you want to call it that. I mean ho:t'I ther~•s y~u always have some~there to keep order? J: Yes sir. B: Well now, in your experience in going to school you're a Lumbee I Indian, right? J: Yes sir. B: And um, by the way, did you know your name your last name is Enelish. It's an Engli'h name. And a'ictually it's a lost colony name, which is the um, English colony which came over in fifteen eighty seven (1587). Did you know that?

PAGE 12

J: B: No sir. cfcs IS"Yl t,;(t..f' So, actually ;i.:t; ,~as definitely one of Um how 'bo~t. your relations? I those lost colony names. don't like to use that word. Um um in your your associations with other 12 studehts at school um, were they pleasant? I mean, was there conflicts between Indians, Whites and ? J: B: J: B: In my case, no sirf All of us got along together, every race, when I was going to school. We never had any trouble about this. You haven't had any incidents that you cali ractal incidejts? h ke. -h 11 ~t 1,1.eThe only one we had was a Negro boy ,:ho killed a White boy. Um huh. . . when was this? J: Well see, it was in, um, May. B: Of this year ? J: Yes sir. B: Um huh. . . so on the whole, it seems that, um, integration has taken place, um in an orderly fashion. J: Yes sir. The boy wouldn't hit the White boy not lessen' the White boy would have caused him first. B: Um huh how 'bout the teachers? Um, are they~ 1 •~ the teaching staff (~'OJ.C..J fl of all three races? J: Yes sir. B: Um, huh, and um so it now it seems to be accepted, would you say? J; Yes sir. (> think it's accepted. B: Um huh well this is all interesting. Norma, how 'bout UM what do you do for entertainment, I mean at all I mean do you have you have no dances to go to, you have no movies um, what do you do~ watuh TV?

PAGE 13

13 J: We can watch TV or give a party. B: Um huh you know most of the Indian people many of our Indian families are a little strict ,,n bringing up girls, especially girls and boys, for that matter. I think this is it's fair to say this is characteristic of our people, our Indian People. Um, don't answer this unless you want to, but um, do you consider your parents to be a little strict? J: Yes sir, but I think they have a right. B: That's fine um there used to be um whenI was coming along, there was um, a definite bedtime when your boyfriend came up came alone. He could sit up until a certain hour, say nine o'clock and then parents wold c~ll bedtime t',S "-t-,., ' J: uwn =-"t:.--. B: And you'd better be in (pronto) too, right? J: Yeah, but ours is not that short. We get to twelve B: J: B: Um huh to st 8 y up. . . that's great. 'Cou~se you have great parents and they're very understanding, I'm sure. Um, did you have anyother problems in tlle school? I mean was there any other prob\ems, lvdl) ~/1'Y'\. fJ ' l'i 'L '0,( l't'\.l f.-/ C\\ /v.._/ /'1'1)..b f/~w.. .S > tf_ ; !/ 1 :Di": d, f d th (-\. ,,V-t\..T /C ...r _ ;\ you in e work difficult? Now you know when ycu're working with along with three ga,oups did you see any difference or could you tell any .differ1mce in the um, um level. rid you wo.,ld you have to seperate the people in c~asses ~ccording to their sciolastic level or you know? J: Yes sir, in some cases, but, that was the time that the White was more educated than we 1 so, they knew more than we did. So,

PAGE 14

14 when we started going to a White School, we learned a lot more than we had when we were going to an Indian school. The;v had more thi~:; to work with Fd we didn't. So we just learned more when we started going to a White school. B: Do you think the white schools, when you started going to the white schools, that they had mcr.J , u:,:_-:ilies and better supplies, better buildings and that sort of thing? J: Yes sir. They really do. They had everything they:~ needed and we cidn't, when we was going to Hawk Eye. B: Um huh how 'bout teachers. Now you've studied under how many have you stud,~•d under three different kinds? Three races of teachers? J: Yes sir. B! So, is there any difference between teachers of the three races that you know? Um, or do you feet like I'm puttin' you on a spot? J: No sir. There's no difference between •em. All of •em want you ,.. to learn something. B: Um huh. J: So they try to make you study. B: Um huh. . . J: And they teach. B: Do you think one teacher is ajgood as another? J: Yes sir. To my opinion they are. B: Well, that's what we're interested in, your. . . whatever it is. please feel free to express your :.,Mn opinion. Um um. so you think that um, intergration in your case has;~een a help, hasn't it? B: Yes sir.

PAGE 15

15 B: Um huh if you could change anything in the school system vkc.....lP / if you had the power to change anything at all, can you think of ' anything that you d like to change? J: ( (Ac.JI~ a h Ct rl.,. .. ) ' the only thing I can thira: of is the busing. B: Is it um, that you have to-travel long distances by bus or that sort of thing? Yes sir. J,ffiCt.t{/But this time they made it a li -;;-~le ci;i,fferent. 1hey should put all the high school on one bus, and the other grades on another bus, to my for me. B: Um huh J: So that's what I think they should change. B: Were there problems on the bus maybe putting all the children o.rib.together •/l sometimes the big5er students pick on the little ones you think? J: Yes sir, they do that quite a lot} i!)r.' B: Um huh and it~not always possible for the bus driver to drive and keep order in t he bus? J: No sir, it's not. They can't leave their seats. B: Um huh J: They~ust have to turn around and go back to school with the whole bus load. B: Um huh maybe they'll get this problem ironed out. 'Bout how far d&_a, did you have to .ge--to school, Norma? J: I'll say about six or seven miles. It was long from here to Raeford is 'bout ten miles. So~ had to walk '""r,xz m. 't,k had a long route to go so . . B: your ( t--o-1-htf'" ) is a bus -river? J: Yes sir.

PAGE 16

16 B: Um huh you know how many miles he drives each day? J: I don't really know. He drives in the morning time, but he don't in the afternoon because he has football practice. B: Well, um, you think if you could change anything, it would be the busing situation. J: Yes sir. B: 1 bout how about uhrtt time do you have to get up in the morning to get to school? J: J: B: J: B: J: We'd get up exactly five o'clock every morning. And start getting ready for school? Yes sir. rctc c.(( ? 'Bout what time would you J,9.we f:9r school. You get up at five and it takes you ~(.)vi)/~ 'Bout something to eight about five to eight. From five to eight to get to school? Yes sir. B: Um do you have to would you nave to meet the bus out on the road or how far uculd you have to walk to get to the bus? J: We don't have to we didn't have to go nowheres but out there B: J: B: J: B: in the backyard, but a loj; of other students had to walk about a ,ottJ mile through the back of the woods to get to the~ when it was raining so they'd just stand out there and get wet and come to school. Go to school wet. Yes sir. Um huh there wasn't any kind of shelter or anything like that along the way? No sir, not a thing! Um huh so that's something else you might want to change too.

PAGE 17

17 you know. 'Cause if you had little shelters like I've seen in some places Y.OU might those students eould at least get under shelter rin ~ wheather and do not have to Wti , f,, , , •'1J Is it has it been new experience that the buses when they change um, came about the same time every mornign, so you would know approximately when to go, so you didn't have to go too early or too late? Or is there lots of time in there that you, um, to be sure to be there you had to is this rc5t.t [e;, +c.J f re. f,{I s,J..,,;cU:; ? J: They come about the same time. They might be a little late when somethin's wrong with the bus, but they come about the same time everyday. B: Um huh can you remember any accidents in the years that you rode the buses~? jid you have any accidents? J: No sir. We never did have any on our buses. B: Um huh was the busses in Horth Carolina ( _j .!. a ,c ee) down to very low speed um, they can't really run very fast can they? J: No sir they can't. B: 'bout thir;y;y thirty five? Do students usually drive? J: Yes sir. But( ) for the grammar grades they have $-ladies and men that comes from homes and ( drives bus ) every day and works at the schoolhouse maids and janitors. B: Um huh do you think that um,maybe I uhouldn't be asking you this, but I just want to know your opinion um, do you think of the

PAGE 18

18 high school students make aS"good driver as anybody else? J: Tes sir, I really do. Our trips to highschool, first of all we didn 1 t have very much trouble but parents, they come out there on the bus ---drivers. B: I know this state has had a good record in bis direction, you know. Um, as far as driving is concerned and I know that this is something that is practiced throughout the state, that high school studen6s are us~d to drive the buses. And um, most, if not all instances, in many instances, unless it's _)t.rS-}trr change~ a couple of years ago, this, year. Anyway, you'!".c happy to be out of school, aren't you? J: Yes sir, in a way} ,:;;: a way I wish I was back/ B: You miss it? J: Yes sir. B: Is it a little lonely around home? J: Yes sir since I'm the only person here everydoy except daddy, momma and John. B: Um huh do you get bored? hutJ: Yes sir. I don't have an;ything to do watch TV. B: Do you do any reading? J: Yes sir, I do quite a lot. B: Are the families able to get books from the libraries eventhough they are not in school? Could you borrow books from the Library? J: Yes sir. B: How 'bout a book mobile? Do you have a book mobile? J: I think we have one in. in the ( town limit ) ... of Raeford/ but not out int ,e country. I ? B: They don t come out here. , J: No sir.

PAGE 19

B: Well certainly this is one way to spend your time, reading ,f;v,/C.r} if Lf J Ci /of 0 / fh;?P ) , I think. Um, do you love to read? J: Yes sir. ~fB: What do you consider to be your best fie111 study. ? . . . J: I guess ( .. ,., ,,. ) . B: What do you like to do best in ( school )? J: To my opinion, I like Biology the best. B: Biology J: Yes sir, Biology and science. B: Um, do the week seem to drag? ::;: ~/A-U.s -flvl, fl obvious question. Um, you're used tolieing with people everyday, that it bothers you not to be with people everyday,S )...;.ram I_ I tFJ I t St-lite ~J: Yes sir, it really do. If I had a job working, it wouldn't be too dificult, but since I don't have one, it gets bored just sitting around the house. B: Um huh may I ask you a personal question? J: Yes sir. B: Do you have a boyfriend? J: No sir. B: Why? J: To my opinion, boys are I won't s~1 that boys are not really special in my book. B: You just haven't started dating. um regularly? 19

PAGE 20

20 J: I've dated a couple of times, but they're just no fun! to my opinion. B: Hell, um, what would you change about boys, if you could change anything? J: I'd teach 'em some manners. B: Well, I guess that's a pretty natural reaction. Um, and um, when boys come around um, what do you do? Just sit around and talk ftt _ci_ __ r _,..._ .,-uu-..._ 'J r 17 ,..., ... , something? J: No sir. Sometime u::: go out and eat and go to a movme or go swimming when it's hot enough. B: Um huh and um, well, I won't press that question about boys J: B: J: nnd their manners I think are I think I understand. Um . . . um let me see there was something else I wanted to ask you. Are these questions being too personal? Are you uncomfortable ? No sirf \JJi \\,l\',(\t\,) I appreciate yournto talk with me. These things are interesting to those that those that are socio-psychological um, things here they would like to get into. How do you feel about um, about 4 ct-I,-, I\.~) interracial (~O ? 'viell, to my . . . B: Don't answer if you don't want to. H: Well, I will. To my opinion, I don't like it{ B: Um huh well if you had your choice, you would rather a boyfriend who is Indian? J: Yes sir, I'd rather go with my own racd. B: Um huh if I'm not asking please don't c~ll any names. But, are there do you know people who do interracial ( JJ.cl"filir",)? 6 J: Yes sir I do. B: Does it seem to work out, or does do you think this is a cause of trouble between the races sometime?

PAGE 21

~----------------------------------------------21 J: Sometimes it is. I think they're doing okay until they get r:iarried and when they get married they start fightin' And then they break up. B: J: Ravo you known of many interracial marriar,es? I know quite~ few} 0. ,rt:.. B: Yeah and you think the difference5.iie um, too great to bridge in :,ocial differences and that sort of thing? J: Yes sir. B: Um, if you had to if you were on a nc:.tknuide television, and you wanted to say something to other ~ 0 oungpeople your age, do you know what do you have any idea of what you would say to '~hem? J: I'd just tell them to live together. B: Um, this seems to be um, you !now the young pao~le are always talking about love, um, in a broader seIIB:e than I'm talking about now. J: Yes sir. /I B: And you know that many of the young people of today say that what the II world needs moct is love, love,love, like the song r,oes and um, they they're serious about this and they sa~ that if everybody loved each other they wouldn't fight wars and they wouldn't be hutting e~ch other um, you know what I'm talking about? J: Yes sir. B: Do you go along with ( t,, OS J::J f' It :<1') people on this? J: Yes sir, I'd say that's true. If they'd quit fighting against each other and try to live together, then we wouldn't have Gny problems. B: Um huh this is um, do you think this is just about what Jeo~s. thousand years ago when he said, you know, love your neighbor. ? J: Yes sir.

PAGE 22

B: J: B: 22 _j,/ . .. ? .,rl, •J J hl , 1 ,.. , -, l\t~ Do you think it all narrows back to that~ ~is the kind of love that young people your age are really talking about/isn't it? Y . I es sir. But some of us adults, when we get a little older and a little prejudiced in one thing and another, when our young people start talking about love, by the way somebody thinks they're talking about another kind of love. And do you think they're misunderstood and that some people think they' re talk:_ng about some other kind of love when they're not really talking about it at all? J: Well, yes sir. I think the:y misunderstood 1,1hat we' re trying to say. They don't understan~ what we're trying to say, 'cause, to my opinion, parents now are old-fashioned, most of them/ Um huh um er is there. they call it tho gmv~ration gap. This is the gap between parents and students I mean, parents and children. And um, do you do you find it tV t't CJ ,"i I') ...._, V ~that you can't bridge or it's very difficult to bridge? J: Not really. B: J: Um huh. . . well, perhaps your parents, um, you can talk to your parents. But do-you think this is generally true of all young people? Some parents just won I t talk to their children! Most of the time most of_ther parents are away from home and they stay weeks at a time K,c\s, I and the11\Just don t ever get to talk to 'em. But in my case daddy and momma sits down and talks to us talks about our nroblems. B: Um huh and then you're not afraid to ask them about anything you want to know? J: No sir.

PAGE 23

J: They always. B: That's great J: Tell me what I want to know. B: Um huh that's wonderful. But you don't think this is true generally among all young people? J: No sir, I don't. 23 B: Um, do you think Norma, that the young people ij.as d.ne much to change the thinking of the older people? Do you think we are learning hou to '.,espect and appreciate what our young people have to say? J: Well, I think they might be getting ideas by now. B: Um huh. , I taught high school, by the way, for three years, and my studehts were very close to me. Do you think this is unusuql? I mean they came to me with their personal problems and I you know, I was alway~lad to listen. think this is unusual? . . And do you J: No sir. !'Jot to my opinion. Vie have a 1 ~.t of that our school. WE' d find a teacher we liked real well and we'd tell her our problems and she'd try to solve it for us. B: Um do you t~~nk parents and stu remember we're still talking 'bout this generation gap, d~~hink this gener.stion gap ia:. um, is it becoQ}ing wider or is um, re they getting closer together, our J: B:) parents and young people, or say, adults in general and young people in general. Do you think they're getting closer tog'.!ther and understanding each other better? I t.,ink they' re understanding each other better. ? Wal( Um huh do you have any idea Ill), this is a difficult question, I have to think about it myself for a while to come up with some answers and they' JI probably be ( ~~4,.,

PAGE 24

24 But can you think of anything, right off, that um, each group can do, um, you know, to come a little closer together and understand each other better? J: E@ch group. .f, B: Um huh J: I don't really know, not lessen they get lessen they pick certain ones out of each group to go toihe to other groups and they worked together on some kind of idea or something like that. B: Um huh. J: I think that might help. B: Young people generally, I found in my own experience, to be very idealistic, you know what I mean? J: Yes sir. B: Do you think this is true of the young people generally? They have J: B: um, they do disagree with some of the things, w~ 71 err I.I fk.-...,/ ( ) mistakes/ because adults have made high idealsand um, they some of the r1istakes. mistakes and um, some of us are still making them, perhaps. And, Or do you understand ~e,i t-t ~sf.~ Um we111J' 7/nci-te, 1 1 a. l t.t.e.s-h ;~ ..r~ c.J/t,.,u,_ ti'\ fl'-"~ , (I~ 4s'1s) well, do you have any comment on -/hat? I should have been very clear and simple and said that um, do you think we're bridging this gap better today than we did yesterday? J: No sir. To my opinion, they're getting farer apart than they used to be. B: Um huh. . . J: Grownu~s just don't, they just don't understand Some of them just don't even care. B: Do you think some of them just don't want to understand?

PAGE 25

J: Well, that could be true. Most of them try to anyway. B: Um huh and um, if um, if the adults came a little bit towards the young people and the youhg people a little bit towards the adult, do you think this might help? J: Yes sir, I think they should meet half way and that should at least tell the young people they are at least trying to help. B: Um hh Um, do you think young people are afraid to approach the older people in regard to some question maybe? J: Yes sir. B: Um, what would happen if um, you asked an adult, an older person, a question, um, you know, if it was a question that they thought was. 25 . . that shouldn't be discussed at all. Are there questions like that you think? J: Yes sir, there's questions like that. But in our ho, se daddy sits B: down and discusses it with us ep:enthough he don't thi$ we should know, he at least tries to discuss it with us Um huh . ~Um, I keep um, injecting my opions and my opinions after all are not relavant. But um, I want to encourage you to talk because I want to know ho~ you feel. And um, this is why. And I don't want to lead you. I want you know, I just want to get your opinion on these things, because I think we had we do have TAPE 31A SIDE 2 B: This is side 2 of the interview with Miss Norma Jackson. Um, do you remember what we were talking about when the tape ran out on us? We let it pass quite a way without realizing it had run out of tnpe didn't we? J: Yes sir.

PAGE 26

26 B: I wanted to aslt you something about um, dress at school. And rules at school about dress, and if you had any problems there or if the J: B: young people and the teachers hair and this sort of thing? J..r.v.L. Ii had any problem with dress and long Yes, we~ um, rules at our schoo) especially about dresses and,_ hair cuts. Girls ~resses had to be four inches above their knees and the boys had to have short haircuts. Um huh. . . J: If you don't, they'd get suspended for a week or two weeks until they get their hai4cut, and their dresses down. B:. :um huh and the boys um, um, suppose you have a boy in school who feels that he has the right to wear his hair as long as he wants. Um, you're not likely to have any, but it's likely to just suppose -~ t :-r, -i\ W.? G{ ( C (. l-' ( ) , what would happen? J: We have had a couj/l.le like that but um, they suspended 'em 'til they got their haircut, they wouldn't let 'em back in school. B: J: B: J: You never did have any court cases or anything like thi' did you? Yes sir. What happened? The school always won. B: The school always won? J: Yes sir~ B: Imd the judge would say they simply had to do what the school says, right? J: Yes sir. B: Um, I wonder if this judge knew that the United States Supreme Court upheld the right of young people to wear their hair~~~y they pleased? {{~rj1...4) C r ;-k C:.t'-..~ Um, what kind of um, um, this sounds~ but maybe I shouldn't say

PAGE 27

27 that, but I understand that there was a test case and um, that the United States }5upreme court ruled that um, the boys could wear their hair, you know, ai long as they weren't in conflict with their parents/ at least. If the parents agredd to fun, that the boy could wear his hair long, what do you think would happen? H: Well, in our school, most parents didn't. They always liked their boys with short hair. B: J: B: So, the parents and the teachers and the courts stood. together. Yes sir, and the ctudents by their self/ Well, that's an unbeatable combination, believe course, um, as you know, um, standards are different in different parts of the country eventhough we have constitutional rights to do something, it doesn't always follow that um, the school is going to ndhere to that. But nobody had not many people had the money to go the desire the desire to go to the United States Supreme Court o~r something like this. They usually figure, I suppose, that it would be better to just;/Pccept the situation as it was. So, the result in your school was that you didn I t have any long hair, did you? J: No sir. { f M/u) B: J: B: J: B: So, (it musta)wcr~ed pretty well anyway. It did. And um, those dresses did conform to thef Yes sir, they came right do1:11:.. ( ((/.,t,tJi..r) We.II Um huh this is all interesting because um, um, you know, the city standards are somewhat different from rural standards I guess ) . Of course, Hoke High is located in Raeford? J: Yes sir. B: About how many people live in :aeford would you say? That's the county seat isn't it?

PAGE 28

28 J: Yes sir. B: It's not too large a city is it? J: No sir. I gue I . . . I can't guess about how many. I'll say about fifteen hundred F: Um huh J: Somewhere along there. B: It's um, It's very interesting because um, the Uni~ed States is a big country and um, tliere are different customs in different places. Now this is um, Now we're talking about a fully intergrated school, right? J: Yes sir. B: Um huh and um, can I ask you a personal ({!t;i )? J: Yes sir. B: Do you think the young people \Jere right) or the teachers? J: Um was right about what? B: J: About um, the way about long hair and so on. Well I think the teachers wene right/ If they had short hnir and long dresses, they would respect the school and respect the people that goes out there. / i-b:s B: Um huh well =-um, that' s~ery interesting thing, an~1, course people, you know, have different id.eas about those -things and we certainly don t want to get in to any controversy over it. But um, if you had um, if you had your way the~those rules would be strictly inforced? J: Yes sir. B: This makes for a better person)don't you think? J: I Yes sir, it really helps a person. And they don t fight ao much and they get along better. B: Um, how 'bout um, on buses, um, you know, riding to and from school,

PAGE 29

um, were they generally crowded or do you think there were too many kids on the buses at times and you know, kinda packed in like sardines? They used to be when I was coming along. This is why I am asking you about the busing situation today. J: Well, some of 'err: D.ad longer routes and the longer their routes the more students thtad to pick up. really crowded! So, some of the buses were B: Um huh did some of the students have to stend? J: Yes sir, aome of 'em did. B: Um huh even on those long rides? J: Yeah. yes sir, especially the ones that got on last. B: Um huh well, maybe in the future there will be enough buses that you know, that everybody will be able to get a seat. And um. maybe it'll all work out to the best advantage of everybody. Um, 29 . . so you, um, um, you would sort of like to go b:,ck ever your high school days. I think most students feel thia way after they graduate. Do you feel this way? J: Yes sir. You miss all of your friends. You don't get to sec 'em half as much. B: J: B: Um huh. . but when you get to college you'll make new friends and you know . . Yes .sir. But I don't \_\\\t' think "f\ would be ( /;ke) my high school friends. Yeah, that's true. 1-Jell I want to um, tell you that I rec(lly vovJve. appreciate this interview. helpedr1e a lot, because I am an older person too, and um, I do want to hear what young people have to say and um. I hope what ~~told hasn't been to .-:~ me. f/e.c. ~.c.. ! J: No sir. B: Well, um, I think you were honest.

PAGE 30

1 30 J: Yes sir. B: And um, I really do appreciate it, Norma. An~ I hope you have very good luck in in getting to college and in getting the kind of training you want. And that you would be able to cot in the kind of occupation you want, you know, you snid you'd like to., tJ!ork with people, do social work and um, I'm hoping and praying t>is will work out for you. I'm sure if you have faith a:cd this is what you want to be that -~ha you' 11 succeed because um, the good Lord's on your side. J: I hope so. B: Um, thank you so very much. You've um you've helped us a lot. J: Thank you B: . . And your interview was very, very interesting and very informative. You are SP.eaking for a lot of young rieople. J: Thank you.