Title: Interview with Bruce Jones, Janie Locklear, E.B. Turner (September 29, 1972)
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007021/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Bruce Jones, Janie Locklear, E.B. Turner (September 29, 1972)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: September 29, 1972
Spatial Coverage: Lumbee County (Fla.)
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00007021
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 28A

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Full Text


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and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of

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Lumbee Hearing by North Caroline Civil Rights Committee
September 29, 1972

Judge and Witnesses are identified but members of the committee can not be identified.

N: June '72 in the Re'erteen County Superior Court Room in Lumberton,

yo 4) I North Carolina. The following will be an open hearing conducted by the

North Carolina Civil Rights Committee as part of our oral history.

J: This hearing of the North Carolina State Committee will now come to order.

V. ) My name is W. W. Finley, and I'm from Raleigh. And I'm chairman of the
North Carolina State Committee for the U. S. GeC4mf ee on Civil Rights

in Washington. I have the honor now of calling the names of the other

members of the North Carolina Committee and as I call the names of these

people, they will identify themselves by raising their hand. Reverend

Cecil Bishop of Greensboro, N. C. Thank you. Jean ( )

of North Carolina University in Durham. Thank you. Mr. Adolf Dial of

Pembroke State University in Pembroke.A Thank you. Mrs. Sarah (

) of Durham. Mr. William Bowser of Fayetteville. The

Reverend Robert ( ) of Lumberton. Mrs. ( oc^ 4-) Brooks

of Pembroke. Mr. Wilbur Hobby of AFL-CIO in Raleigh. Professor ( C-fL-c-

LC<-< ok- ) of Raleigh, North Carolina State University. And Professor

Bruce Payne of Duke University in Durham. Thank you. Also appearing.with

us today are Mr. Paul Alexander to my right of the Commission's office of

general counsel, Miss Edith (/St - ), where are you, Miss Edith?

Yes, of the Commission's Southern Regional Office. Mr. Jacob (jA -tI )

of the Commission's Mid-Atlantic Regional Office. Thank you. This hearing

is being held pursuant to rules available to the state committees and other

requirements promulgated by the Commission on Civil Rights. Now, the

Commission on Civil Rights is an independent agency of the U. S. Govern-

ment. It was established by Congress in 1957 and authorized by the Civil

Rights Acts f 1957, 1960 and 1964 to due four things, or five: Number One,

LUM 28A 2 -

the Commission investigates complaints alleging that citizens are being

deprived of their right to-vote by reason of their race, color, religion

or national origin; Number Two, to study and collect information concerning

legal developments which constitute a denial of equal protection of the law5

under the Constitution; Number Three, to appraise federal laws and policies

with respect to equal protection of the laws; Number Four, to serve as a

national clearing house for civil rights information; and finally, Number

Five, to investigate allegations of vote fraud. Now, I would like to em-

phasize, at this time, that.this is an informal hearing, and not an ad-

versary type of proceeding. We"'.e meeting in a courtroom but we e not

holding a public trial. Individuals have been invited to come and share

with the committee information relating to the subject of today's inquiry,

and that subject is this: The extent to which on County's Indian

population has achieved full political participation and full equality in

employment opportunities. Each person who will participate has voluntarily

agreed to meet with the committee. Every effort has been made to invite

persons who are knowledgeable about the problems and progress in the areas

to be dealt with here today. Any individual may offer information which

points to differentials in the treatment of Indians or other minority group

persons. In an effort to get a well-balanced picture of the situation in

this community we have invited employers, community leaders, private citi-

zens and officials from the federal, state, county and municipal-govern-

ments. Now, listen to me) sincee this is a public hearing the press, the
radio, tm television stations as well as individuals are welcome. Any

person discussing a matter with the committee hereafter may specifically

request that he shall not be televised. In-tom*t case, it will be necessary

for me to comply with this wivtee. We are very concerned that we get all

the information relating.to the matter under investigation. We are, how-

ever, concerned that no individual be the victim of slander or libelous

LUM 28 A 3 -

statement. We are going to safeguard that situation. As a precaution

against such happenings, each person making a statement here today or

answering questions has been interviewed prior to the meeting. However,

in the unlikely event that such a situation should develop, it will be

necessaryAto call this to.the attention of the personaking the statement

and request that he desist in this action. If the testimony the person is

offering, however, is of sufficient importance, it may be necessary for the

committee to hear the information in a closed session. The person against

whom the allegations are being made will have ample opportunity to make a

statement in closed sessions before the committee if he..so desires. In

any event prior to the time that the committee submits its report to the

commission, every effort will be extended to get a complete picture of the

situation as it exists in your community today. At the conclusion of the

scheduled meeting should any one of you or anyone else wish to appear in

open session before the committee, he or she shouldlotify Mrs. (pU- )

or Mr. Schilt, the staff representatives before the meeting adjourns.

Written statements will also be welcome for inclusion in the record and

should be sent to the North Carolina State Committee, U. S. Commission on

Civil Rights in Washington. Now, as we begin, we are honored, very honored

today to have with us a distinguished citizen of North Carolina, a scholar

who has served as chairman of the Department of Political Science at Duke

University more than fifteen years. He's an author of many outstanding

books on state and federal government. He's a former member of the Durham

City Council and now a member of the U. S. Commission on Civil Rights, one

of the six commissioners. We have to say te North Carolinigan, and we are

delighted that Professor Robert S. Rankin is here, and Dr. Rankin, we would

4tke to hear from you.

4 -

LUM 28 A

R: Thank you vay muh. Mr. Chairman, and members of the North Carolina

L State Advisory Committee. I would like to express my pleasure in having

the opportunity to make a few comments, and I'll make them very few. I

will be extremely brief for I know you have very important business to do

here this afternoon. But first, let me thank you for serving on this

body. Over the years the commission has grown deeply indebted to persons

like yourself throughout the country for he services the cause of civil

rights. The information which is come out of open meetings such as this

has proven to be 0 invaluable assistance to the commission and to its

programs. This happens, however, only because you, as concerned citizens,

make it happen through your commitments of effort.and of time. The com-

mission, and I personally, find such dedication to be hopeful evidence that

progress will continue in the field of civil rights and human liberty. It

is particularly appropriate that the North Carolina Committee has chosen

this time to examine issues affecting the Lumbee tribe of Indians. The

U. S. Commission on Civil Rights of which I am a member is engaged in j 1lt\.

comprehensive study of conditions among American Indians. The information

which this committee gathers will certainly be incorporated into this larger

study. Previous hearings which concerned Indians in Montana, in North

Dakota Oklahoma and South Dakota will also be made a part of this study.

In addition to hearings by the State Advisory Committee, the U. S. Committee

on Civil Rights will conduct a nationwide study in every section of the

country, North, South, East and West. The special problems attending the

legal status of reservation Indians, off-reservation Indians, federally

recognized tribes, state recognized tribes, unrecognized tribes, ter-

minated tribes, urban Indians, Alaskan natives, Eskimos and ( ),

all will be examined. Each of these situations poses ibsowm unique legal

problems, its own difficulty determines what law or jurisdiction applies

5 -
LUM 28 A

in a particular case, but we'll do-our best. The all-too-frequent outcome

of the resulting confusion is that the Indians are denied justice and

fair treatment under law. What are these problems? What can be done

about them? These are the questions which the Civil Rights Committee hopes

to answer in this ) and others (/*^ U, ). Speaking

for the other five committee members and myself, this committee can be

certainAthe report coming out of this hearing will receive our close

attention and that it will be pured as a part of the nation-wide study

of the rights of American Indians. I thank you.

J: Aekri Rankin, we thank you, too, very much. We are very grateful that

the chairman of the "bersJef County Board of Commissioners accepted our

invitation to come here today also and.make a statement at the opening of

this hearing. At this time I have the pleasure to present Mr. Howard

( .-a- ). ~Mr. (( -,,).

K: our onur
behalf of RCbertaeCounty, I would like to welcome you to tkhsgreat

county. I sincerely hope that your hearings will be of great interest and

great benefit to all concerned. ( ----- ---- )

anything if we can be of service to you, ( ) the county (0. C- -

S- -" ), please feel free to call. Thank you. 44v

J: Mr. (I,.-. t t), thank you so muh.A We now want to recognize the Reverend

Eugene Turner of Lumberton, North Carolina. ATurner, are you here? Thank

you for coming, Mr. Turner.,

40: Xou are one of the leading citizens of our community here in Lumberton

and you are also a councilman, are you not? Fine, we'll be happy to have

a statement from you.

T:(?):Mr. Chairman, members of the North Carolina State Committee, U. S. Commission

on Civil Rights, and fellow citizens. I am pleased for this moment to send

6 -
LUM 28 A

greetings to you, and to join my fellow RPhartreias in welcoming you to

Rseb oCounty. Robeteson Countts unique in its history, ( -tcrL )

in its culture, and, as you know, tri-racial in its (tot ,- ). I

am advised that you have assembled to hold an open hearing to examine

equal opportunities for Lumbee Indians in Robertuson County. With respect

to political participation.and employment, let me express my many, many

thanks for your listening ears and while we are long overdue, the fact

that you have brought them, I hope is andAwill be a clear expression of

your personal interest and your committee's concern. sob wlr the

language of my father, and I visited him this week theey

eay, in the language of my father with his children at meal time, I say,

"Oh, Lord, we thank you for what this committee is about to receive." I

feel this, gentlemen, that this hearing is not only timely, it is needed,

it is desired, it is justifiable, it is your constituted responsibility.

It is the best way to know, and it is one way to bring into clear focus

facts and conditions that across the years have molded themselves as the

accepted and expected ways of life. This hearing in jore great possibilitiAd"/

Mr. Chairman, will not be welcomed by all of our citizens. It is a fact,

however, that we are all Americans and our way of life is democracy. In

a democracy, as I understand it, all should have an equal opportunity at
jobs, at housing, at education, at political participation, and common

benefits of our society. Someone said to.me the other day on the street

when I was informing them that I had been invited to make an opening state-

ment here, that in America, few people believe in democracy. At least,

the Jefferson style. Now if this is true, Mr. Chairman and members of t W

committee, I ( ) you ai a. I believe so deeply

that America's greatest need at this hour and in this decade of the

seventies is to lead her own family to a knowledge of and a belief in and

7 -
LUM 28 A

a practice of the democracy of our land and the democratic way of life and

living. You and each of you mus aware that the conditions you have come

here to hear about are deeply rooted in pride and prejudice. You wilihear,

I'm sure of plain and pure.discrimination as you learn of Indian life and

living in Re4Beesrn County. Let me say clearly to you that while the

blacks of this county thank you for this hearing on Indian life and living

in Rebsaren County, that the black man in this county is below the Indian,

and I"N raise some question about why you changed your priorities. He

is below the Indian, and I want that.clearly heard by all of'you if you

want ( l'i*. ). He is below in job opportunities in this county, if you

don't believe that, you just walk around this courthouse tw you in now,

and you'll find it. Now you going to get (l tf{r-Ics) here, I understand,

that will indicate that the blacks' employment at the county level ;s 14%

black and 12% Indian. Now you will also note that all of that involves

janitorial services, truck driving and all that stuff that we're not con-

cerned about. That's a normal black job. But I tell you again that job
opportunity, black job _ri ---aaa^low, that's what I wantAto get

clear. We*v^ below in county-wide position in this county. We are below

in participation in the power structure. If you forget all else, I hope

you remember that. Now, if you doubt the statistical proof of this when

you return for your hearing in this area as I know, Vt-e to your mission,

you wouldn't want to come down here andfhold jus one, you surely ( L

-----); I sa*to you, to him and to her who will have ears left to
hear, (.- g-v L L-, ) to hear. Now, there some who say that minorities

should be denied inclusion in our ( ) society. There are others who

say that it is better for each minority group to go its own way up the

ladder. I subscribe to neither of these for those who try to divide us

have always, ultimately failed. Those who build castles orprejudice have

8 -
LUM 28 A

seen them come crumbling down. Those who have whispered the counsel of

despair and the council of separatism are being ignored, and I'm grateful

that they are. While beautiful America is not in planetary system with

many atmospheres, many calendars and many temperatures, it is one large

island of earth inhabited by mortal men of many races ,nd many faiths and

colors of skin. They all cry the same way and the very same way. They all

love the same way. If they are to build just and fruitful lives for them-

selves and their children, then they must do it here. I'm talking about

on this physical earth. They must do it here, and I earnestly believe

that we must do it together. Now I'd like for you to get that. That's

my belief. Everybody doesn't agree with me on that, blacks and whites, a4<

Indians, but I believe it if that's all that's (U- +- ) for me. I

earnestly believe that if we are to move in this world and on this earth,

we must do it together. This does not require that r ighteous anger ever

be silenced. This does not require that harmony be purchased at the price

of individuals' freedom. What it does require is a recognition that the

-Ia ) of events that separately men from one another runs

the thread of a common destiny. We shall either be moved, we shall either

move this nation towards civil peace and toward socia justice for all of

its citizens aW we, imy opinion, shall not be able to provide it for any.

We shall either find the means to open cities of America, and I'm dis-

appointed, Mr. Chairman, that you have not had a representative from the

city of Lumberton here. Why, I don't know. I'm just disappointed, but we

shall either find the means to open city, county, state and.national em-

ployment to all of our citizens regardless toerace, find decent housing for

all of our families and provide a good education for all of our American

children or we shall see this American promise spoiled for every one of us.

I'd like to swallow that( Men of reason who are honest with each other know

9 -
LUM 28 A

that there is much to be done here in this county, and I would say here

(Al/ hwc -h~^-& e hope that you've come here to help us, to do

good. We've got enough people here. We've got enough devil here. Don't

you bring us no more. Come and help us be good. Much has been done, I

do admit. Much has been done in this county, but the (. 0 ) of

the constitution of the United States remains an ( i ) on paper.

These (c!-:'*- ) must come alive in our county for survival, for pro-

gress and for stability. These must come alive in and for people. Yes,

the people of this county, this great state of reren,4this county's

greatest asset is people. We must think about people. We must feel for

people. We must plan for people, and we must become concerned about the

health, the welfare, and the progress of people. In closing, Mr. Chair-

man, let me say to you that I have many friends among the Indian T-de and

on their behalifnce you've come to look at their situation, on their be-

half, let me urge you, and each one of you, to listen attentively to what

you will hear, to hear that clearly, to discover fhl the facts and in-

quire deeply so that you will know the facts. Don't just take the sur-

face. (iUehL ^i .:LU L-j/ ";r/ k what you hear and then believe

faithfully, I don't believe these people are going to come here to lie to

you, tsire-ese too many other things, enough lies going on without coming

up here to lie to you all, and then I hope you will express your findings

courageously. The gentlemen from the U. S. Commission said that they would

hear what you all ee4 if you s6a it, so we don't want it left in A ses-

srsr County or in North Carolina, ( ooK0 .... ) Q- where it'?N.

' Ido some good. After this hearing now, hurry back. There's a whole lot more

about ( ,.u- ) that E*P like to tell you. And the Lord bless each one

of you.

j: Mr. Turner Lee, thank you very much. You know, t tay/ he.v.. s an old

10 -
LUM 28 A

expression, it takes one to catch one, -an as a minister it didn't take

me vYer long to find out you were a preacher.

T:. -/ wl .

: We would like to say but we mustn't (At.r ) any longer that we have

had a number of hearings in North Carolina before then, and this is the

first time and the only time we have -m with the Indians. Always it's

been with the blacks. Thank you.

J: To give us a demographic overveiw of our situation, we have Mr. Bruce
Mr. Jones,
Jones of Durham, North Carolina. We've got you down here fifteen minutes

including any questions that may be asked. We're happy to have you here.

Where are you?

B: Mr. Chairman, members of the Civil Rights Commission, ladies and gentlemen,

it is a great deal of pleasure that I appear before this open hearing to

present demographic overview of the Lumbee Indians of Aoe n County,

North Carolina. I appear before this hearing as a staff member of the

North Carolina Manpower Development Corporation based in Chapel Hill, also

being a Lumbee Indian and having lived many years in RJ smI County, I

have become increasingly concerned about the conditions of the Lumbees.

In both these passages, my comments will be based on the facts as I see
/^c-A.L .*.- ( -.*
them. For the statistical analysis of the population of R.ILZBaen County

we note that there are 84,842 people residing in R-bersp n County of which

42.7% are white, 25.890are Negro, 31.2 are Indian and .3% &e others. As

a point of reference in North Carolina, the Indian population is comprised

o0 44,406. Reb.esen County has 60% of the total stat e's Indian popu-
1 %j-1 d reside
lation. Of the individuals residing in Reobesaan County 34.8% whitedfin

rural areas, 24.7% Negro, 40.3% Indians and..3% others. If you take these

figures and look at the percentage of each ethnic group living in the rural

area, you *J find that of the white race 59.2% is white, 69.6% Negro and

11 -
LUM 28 A

the important aspect 93.7 .

LUM 28 A
Lumbee Hearing by North Carolina Civil Rights Committee
September 29, 1972
Side Two

B: .this means that people for various reasons are leaving 9 irtmnn -

S County. The birth rate is somewhat outdated not by the 1970 census but

by a report given by Rbv n County Health Department in December 1967

shows that for the state of North Carolina the birth rate was 23.5%, for

Rucureir County 28.7%. So we have more than the state's average birth

rate and still we're losing population. When it comes to the income of

RbWrr6 County and the income, more particularly, of the Lumbee Indian,

I am somewhat at a loss to provide specific data in this area but will

attempt to give my findings as it might relate to the total economic

status of the county. su County, we have a per capital income of

$1,637 ( l.&L ). We have a medium family income of $5,675 g )

The mean income of four families, $2,111. It has been reported in the

source that I gathered data with these statistics from the Abu n County

Health Department again, December 1967, they reported that a bank president

estimated that there are thirty to forty millionaires in the county. 1- / /

this same report they reported the income under $3,000 per year, thirty to

thirty-five percent are white, sixty-five perceilndian, ninety percent

Negroes. And a ranking as to how Reuli f County ranks with other counties

in North Carolina, it ranked eightieth in one hundred counties. Again,

getting something concrete because it (.A-/L-. ) evidence in the 1970

published census, I would like to provide the Commission with some out-

dated again figures taken from a survey conducted by North Carolina

( A.-'.t ) in June of 1967. According to this survey the median 1964

earned family income is the following breakdown: $4,656 white, $1,618 Negro,

$1,324 Indian. The total median family group income: $2,663. As you can

13 -
LUM 28 A

tell, my remarks are rather sketchy and the only thing that I have avail-

able to present to you is outdated ( OCLatl ), and we need some way of

getting statistics in this area on American Indians of RIbeb ton County.

Looking at the employment .

J: Let me interrupt you a 'ra Mr. Jones, you're giving .et some very,

very interesting statistics. We've allowed fifteen minutes for this

a you've gotf. through about two pages and about eight or tetore to

come, is there any way you can compress this and give us a chance to

ask you a few questions?

B: Yes, I can.

J: Please.

B: Then I will have to just restrict my remarks rather than totally (

-'_=o ) as to just what I've been able, the total figures for the

Lumbee Indians as to that and the other data pertaining to the county .

J: If you will,kplease.
: We'll put whole statement in the record however.

B: O'Zhank you. That's w?t problem I have, eat being able to make my

point4in a short length of time. Checking the employment situation, again

for the Lumbee Indians, I am at loss according to the time, I can just say
that there is employment data available to me to present to this hearing but

I could report to the hearingAminority data which I will and of which the

Lumbees are a part. In 1971 the annual average as recorded by the Employ-

ment Security Commission of Raleigh, North Carolina for the Ror n County

we have a figure of a civilian work force, 38,670, 51% is minority. Em-

ployed for this period of time we have 35,930, 50% minority. lauplUmerr

for this period, 2,740, a percentage for minorities, 65%. The rate of

unemployment, the total, 7.1%, the minority percentage, 9.1. I can direct lA-yt-v

attention to also to the study of the North Carolina ( -7.E L ) in the fall

14 -

LUM 28 A

of 1965 which showed that in RaerC f County 12.8% white, 11.7% Negro,

22.8% Indian were all 16.0%. Also in the same report for comparison of

the North Carolina and the Employment Security Commission Estimate Rate

for unemployment for one rural area, Lumberton, the ESC Reporting 7.8,

the North Carolina 16.0%, and the ratio of North Carolina to ESC rate


: Mr. Brooks, ja I just get a few clarifications in right now?

B: Yes.

: You mentioned that data was unavailable concerning employment status of

Lumbees and other specific demographic characteristics. Is this because

the census bureau hasn't provided them as yet, or did they not count them?

B: I would assume t-h counted them or the investigation of the questionnaire

indicated a place for the American Indian but if you look at the published

report for North Carolina you will only find data according to6ex and race.

: So, you're just .

B: .whichfthe Indians but all of the other demographic data is not done.

What about state unemployment data? Is that provided as white, black and

Indian? Just white and minority?

B: The (4_-c
: The only special census, I gather, is the one that's been done by the North

Carolina Fund./ Could you briefly explain whether that's a public or a pri-

vate census. Has this been done by the government, or has this been done


B: It was done by a private, non-profit organization.

: Thank you.

J: Any other question to be directed to Mr. Jones? Yes, sir. (ey- )

: ( )

15 -
LUM 28 A

can you tell me if your ( Ca-.-! ^hC-- )

included 4EU underemployed( ) underemployed ( )

unemployed, the group ( ).

B: From my analysis of the data, I would say that it referred to the unemployed

and not the underemployed or those that are discouragedand are no longer

seeking employment because of previous experiences.

: If these things were included. .

B: If they were included, then the rate would be much higher/-vwil .A7. ,-

J: Thank you, Dr. Jones. Any other member of the committee who wishes to

direct a question to Dr. Jones.

'B: Mr. Chairman. It's not a question .

J: Mr. Cecil ( ).

"B: of civil rights to speak up, it might help because the sound is not

too good.

J: He's saying,.Mr. Bishop is saying, that we're not hearing everything so

anyone who speaks, that is, speak loud and clear. Is that what you mean?

-bB: You read me correct, sir.

J: Now, Mr. Jones, we're probably going to ask you to let us enter the rest

of your statement into the records and, unless there are other questions,

/-^ifn if you have a final summation to make, or do you?

B: I guess my concern is that the organization that I'm with now recognizes

this, that they're presently engaged in doing household survey of the

Indians of North Carolina to provide this data and as soon as this study

is completed, I will be glad to make it available to the committee.

: Which organization is this?

B: The North Carolina Manpower Development Corporation.

: Is that state or .

B: Ait's a state private, non-profit organization.

16 -
LUM 28 A

A/his again is not the state or the federal government doing these com-


B: No.

S Again, it's private.

B: Right.
_._/. ,--
: Has there ever been a special census of be't-oc County, intensive

census like's been done in some poverty areas in the urban centers of the

East and West?

B: There's been one the low income areas of rural eastern North Carolina

by the census but an inspection of that data does not break anything At-

by countyfor by race.

S What date was that?

B: Recently, like '69 or '70.

: Thank you.

J: On behalf of the committee, I want to thank you againMr. Jones, for

this very helpful presentation. Our next invitee is a citizen from Pem-

broke, North Carolina, a teacher who has a special interest in reading.

This is Mrs. Janie Locklear. Miss Jane, will you come, please? Mrs.

Locklear, you're going to talk to us, make a statement and give us a
you -tt -te/C
chance to question on an overview of the current conditions of the Indian

citizens in Ri besQan County, And listen, while we're talking, some people

are saying RpbetOn and some are saying Robinsn, what do you say?

L: RfL7ber .
P5-{-.Gs-o~t- J: Rbcrtoon, OYf

L: Commissioner, committee members and other citizens, I am here before you

today with great pride, pride in the fact-that I have been asked to speak

for my people, a spokesman for my people. No greater honor could ever be

bestowed upon me than this for this opportunity I say to you, thank you.

17 -
LUM 28 A

I am indeed honored. Proud to be a spokesman but distressed about what

I must say for oh so long too many things have gone unsaid.

J: What you're saying is most important. I want everybody to hear it. On

the back seat back there, can you hear Mrs. Locklear?

L: Can we put this mike and use my tape? Both of them, it still doesn't

work? ( this one). This one does.

J: Wait just a moment. I apologize.

L: I have a tape recorder to tape record ..

J: 1, a chair over there for her. Put it so she'll be facing halfway

to the audience as well as to us,( 76(yJW ), thank you very much.

L: Can you hear me? Can you hear me now?

J: Yeah. /alk loud.

L: Proud to be a spokesman but distressed about what I must say. or oh so

long too many things have gone unsaid. So like the innocent man con-

demned to die, I beg you to listen to what I must say. Will the day

ever come when we will not be afraid to use one of the most basic rights

an American has, freedom of speech? Many people knew if they came and

spoke, it might mean their jobs and the security of their families. You

will not hear any public school teachers in this hearing today but we all

understand this fear, don't we? We all are aware of the stupid, petty

racism that pervades this country and is ever more prevalent in ,be n

County because it has long been involved in this type of (d&i-- ).

Oh, this is indeed an inflexible racism. It's never I-C--v'-c). Oh

sure, a few tcas have been given out in recent years and especially in

the past few months but don't be fooled. 'a are mere pacifiers. The

Lumbees are Indians. They are Lumbees because they have chosen to be so.

The state of North Carolina has tried for years and years to homogenize

18 -
LUM 28 A

them, to make them blend in aaa-M-( .. ) the other races. But

the Indians of Rebereten County stay together. AThey remain together.

And since the days of Henry (A ) Lowry who was the Robin Hood of the

Indian people and an outlaw who terrified the whites in North Carolina,

the Indian people have been a passive people, not really rocking the

boat. Only twice since then have the Indians bucked the system to any

degree. The first being when the Ku Klux Klan were threatening to in-

vade their homelands. Their outing was broken up quite abruptly, and

they've never returned. Most recently, the state of North Carolina and

the Board of Trustees at Pembroke State University issued the order for

the demolition of the old main building on ( 1 WSU ) campus. At

one time Old Main was the only place in the state anIndian could get a

college degree. Old Main is the last symbol of the first and only four

year college in this country for Indians. The Indian people hold her

very dear y. She is a part of our heritage. The Indian people began to

protest the demolition. This terrified many politicians because their

dictates were being questioned. Old Main is a vital part of the Indian

people and she must be spared. You know, it is a sad, sad day when

people must endure the agony that was forced upon the Indian people in

our desperate attempt to save Old Main. And as Tom Edwardsput it in a

recent National Congress of American.Indians Journal, "Raleigh's deadening

silence is a form of Chinese water waTwr torture sapping the vitality of

the small Indian community." In both cases, the way the Indian people

of Rubesm:an County vea together was beautiful, and I tell you here,

and I tell you now, in the words that Tom Edwards used, "You must kill

the people who kill the spirit and this is not as politically expedient

today as it was one hundred years ago." The Ku Klux Klan are gone and

Old Main has been spared, and I agree a few changes have been made but now

19 -
LUM 28 A

we must move on and seek to dent the racism that still exists. Many of

the people that you will hear in the next two days will tell you that

there is no racism and if there is racism, they are totally unaware that

it exists. But if it does not exist, then I ask you why, in a recent

article t USASCcJS\) Notes, there appeared a statement that Pembroke

State University last April had received $150,000 from HEW because of the

high number of Indian students. The news of this grant was never re-

leased to the press and no one in o nCounty knew it prior to last

week. But only recently, there was an article in all the local news-

papers about some $4,000 science grant. Makes you wonder if Pembroke

State University has CY- >t- i a UC ^ < I no longer

feel any pride in the Indian students that crosses its campus when the

Indians whose forefathers founded the school, and I ask you is there not

something wrong when Indian people are not told about the money that is

granted in their interest#. Then does i not make you wonder who's re-

ceiving the benefits and it makes you ask a question: does PSU have any

pride ir ( Lk-) Indian students? And I ask you why does a deep-

seated, widespread feeling that there's more( d A -^- ) than a

marriage between the university and the community. The community should

be a training ground for students and the university a service to the

community. But .-ie And I ask you, why there has been no sizeable

growth in Indian students at PSU since the late 1940s but the white en-

rollment has grown by leaps and bounds? And I ask you why there are no

Upward Bound programs at Pembroke State University? And I ask you why

there's a feeling among the Indian people that if their homes are robbed

they do notArecieve the same kind of treatment as the whites-in town? And

I ask you why there's always been problems, suspicions about-gy local

hospitals and local emergency rooms and the stories are numerous about

LUM 28 A 20 -

Indian people who feelthey have not received the same service as the

whites in the county. You know it makes you wonder if your life is really

in jeopardy, what the situation would be. A-I there MS be any hesitation.

Oh yes, hundreds of the Indians are admitted to Southeastern General Hos-

pital yearly but by an all-white secretariaistaff, and I ask you why you

are toldAyou can register to vote at the registrar's home and if you hap-

pen to be in a precinct that has a white registrar, I ask you how many

Indian people will feel comfortable to go to their homes to register to

vote because that is a place that they're not usually welcome, an it is

a good way to discourage registration, I would say. And I ask you why it

always seems that the white landowners seem to have plenty of work for the

Indian tenants to do on election day? Could it be they didn't want .them

to vote? And I again ask you why very, very few Indians, if any, are em-

ployed as clerks and cashiers in this great all-American city stores, and

I ask you, why, and I ask you what can be done to bring about change so

that the Indian people can once again walk with pride and -the feelings of

inferiority that have been pushed down their throats will be removed so.

that there will be a new Indian, one who is treated just and equal, one

that wi holdshis head high because he is an Indian and (J v -

these well-meant words wi (i I ). Is there

no hope for me? Must I always be alone, alone, alone hank you.

J: Thank you. Stay where you are, if you will. Mr. Alexander, do you have

a statement or question?

A: Mrs. Locklear, you mentioned several things in your statement that I'd

like to expand on a bit in discussion. You mentioned/substantial fear

amongAthe Indians ofR County for coming here to testify to give

statements and bir general fear, fear to go to white registrar. You

also mentioned a.feeling of inferiority. How does this system operate to

create feelings of inferiority? 14nd2 .Institutionalized in any way?

21 -
LUM 28 A

Where does it start? What Lumbee history is taught in the public schools

or Indian historyAin general?

L: There is no Lumbee history or Indian history in general taught .et our

public schools. I think it all begins with the little ones who watch

TV and they see things on it, like the National Committee's thing on Drug
ae1 A,
Abuse where they're singing ten little Indians and one overdosed and that

made nine and nine little Indians and the other one popped heroin and the

pictures above A ( A- ) you are the people who do I& look

like Indians and these are the impressions that are instilled in the

Indian children's mind and also in the white person's mind and cowboys

and the Indians always (

- -- ^ ). So these are the impressions that are impressed w our

young and (- (-L .-.- ) is to change these feelings of


A: Now, you're a teacher in the school system (P r-. ).

L: Yes, *

A: Do most of the Indian students go through school with white students and

black students or do they go to school by themselves?

L: Most of the, there is some on a graduate level ( .. ^t. Iu/ )

A: (6L.A-k c-U a-o O.A<.-i-

L: Most of the schools that were predominantly Indian still haw predomi-

nantly Indian with some whites and ,irse'a few blacks.

A: What impact does the essentially segregated education have towards creating

a self-image or the creation of fear or the breakdown of fear?

L: Well, many of the schools today, a few of the schools I've found out,

are using ability grouping kinds of situations in the classroom and

this again ( reverts back tos-ts ' -lc- ) segregation where the

Indian students and black students are put together ( J the whites/

22 -
LUM 28 A

A: Do you have any children in school?

L: Yes. No, none in school.

A: You have children?

L: Yes, two.

A: Do you want them to go to an all-Indian school?

L: Now, I can only speak for my personal feelings a*d I would not like the
would be Ape f __
committee to think that this rthe feelingsof allApeople in RuIaer ta

County or all Indian people. I have taught two years andplived two years

in the ( v3nM.-jo L u-LC ) a I did teach in a well-integrated school

( es.a- X- ). My feelings are that I would like my children to

be able to meet with people of all races to learn to be friends with4all

races because in a segregated school system, it's difficult (r (L4C'e-

ai-LL. t
going to come into contact with people of other races and I' *l- iel-

my children & be able to appreciate people for what they are and not the

color of their skin because this is a prejudice that has ( CI *--

, -. L -- s _) Indian people for so many years and I do not want my chil-

dren to grow up with this same kind of prejudice.

A: Thank you.

J: Stay where you are, Miss Janie. Yes, sir. Mr. Bowser.

B: I have three questions ( -L 'i- r C' ?- ). Do you know

what percentage of the teaching staff at Pembroke is Indian?

L: Are you speaking of Pembroke State University?

B: Yes.

L: As far as instructors, the last figure I saw was six instructors to 111


B: Do you know approximately how many Indians attend the college in proportion

to the number of whites?

23 -
LUM 28 A

L: Last spring the University released the figure at some 200 Indian

students out of j 2,000 student total enrollment, and I think about

eighty black.

B: Two hundred Indians.

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